00:00:17 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:01:50 Outside of Dremel, I think it's all just JSON all the way down. 00:03:02 JSON is scow. 00:04:20 JSON with one line per object, and then you just parse it over and over and over again when looking for something. 00:04:31 fizzie: What if you semi-index it? 00:04:39 Did you see that paper? 00:04:52 http://www.di.unipi.it/~ottavian/files/semi_index_cikm.pdf 00:04:55 Probably not. 00:05:39 Anyway the point is that I want more structure than JSON has. 00:06:09 shachaf: talk to zzo38 about that then 00:06:39 Why? 00:06:56 One kind of thing with more structure is to use RDF. 00:07:03 \ is upper-case | in IRC. <-- if those old charsets had stayed on, i might have been \rjan 00:07:04 Another thing is protobuf. 00:07:14 Regarding the paper, sounds clever but why wouldn't you just ColumnIO(/Capacitor). 00:07:14 oerjan: it's not too late hth 00:07:16 If you are doing text markup though, then XML might work. 00:07:50 @messages- 00:07:51 fizzie said 14h 28m 20s ago: I didn't realize filter 9 effectively disables anonymous editing; turning it off "properly" SGTM. 00:07:59 fizzie: If you can pre-parse things and put them in your own format, of course something human-readable like JSON isn't going to be as good. 00:08:12 shachaf: ARGH 00:08:26 oerjan: What? 00:08:30 * oerjan swats shachaf for making a fake @ask -----### 00:08:33 I didn't want to spam the channel. 00:09:12 shachaf: i use to count the number of lambdabot messages compared to what's in the log to see if it's safe to use @-loud hth 00:09:24 RDF is a easily readable/writable format too. Let's see what you need to make? In some cases, a binary format will work better 00:09:25 oerjan: Oh, I see. 00:09:32 oerjan: I didn't realize that. v. clever 00:09:34 And, what programming language you are using. 00:09:43 zzo38: I like proto. 00:09:50 fizzie: What do you think of Cap'n Proto? 00:09:59 fungot, is RDF a easily readable/writable format too? Let's see what you need to make? In some cases, a binary format will work better 00:10:08 fortunately fizzie's message doesn't look overly confidential :) 00:10:18 Hm... 00:10:24 Such as, JavaScript will have JSON built-in and I wrote a library to read/write RDF too. 00:10:26 I'm trying to figure out if there's a gambit for something I'm looking for 00:10:53 One of our cats escaped sometime yesterday, and today after coming home from school I decided to look around and found him in one of the neighbor's yards 00:11:27 oerjan: fizzie's message was in the channel too. 00:11:38 He couldn't have gotten in over the fence (he's old, a bit fat, and was declawed by the previous owners; he would have a hard time climbing the fence) 00:11:55 oerjan: Now I see what happened. You missed fizzie's message in the log, so the 1 lambdabot reported matched the 1 you saw. 00:12:04 And therefore it tricked you into revealing a message you thought was secret. 00:12:06 He couldn't have jumped it either, because I don't think I've ever seen him jump nearly high enough (and even if he could, he'd be way too scared) 00:12:13 hpp: went through a hole through the fence? isn't that what cats normally do? 00:12:14 I thought you were just confused by 1<2 00:12:17 @ask oerjan was that pun truly an accident? twh <-- which pun twh 00:12:22 wob_jonas: That was my next possibility 00:12:36 He could've climbed in other, but I'm pretty sure he was stuck in their yard 00:12:44 oerjan: "insidious" hth 00:12:49 shachaf: I think when I was reading about it, all the arguments made sense, more or less, but something in the style of the writing made me feel bad on behalf of protobufs. I mean the format itself. 00:12:53 cats can climb through holes you'd think are impossible to climb through. they have like epic skills. 00:13:08 fizzie: Well, the author of capnproto is the author of proto2. 00:13:12 wob_jonas: Yeah, but this looked thin even for a cat 00:13:57 Now, usually I'd just think he HAD managed to squeeze in and just couldn't get out for some reason (which seems unlikely) 00:14:10 hpp: another hole you didn't notice then? 00:14:28 wob_jonas: I could look for another hole, but for now let's assume this is the only hole 00:14:43 (also, their fence has only two sides, as this is a neighborhood of duplexes) 00:14:51 shachaf: I know, that's why I didn't feel bad for the author, just poor old proto2 itself. It's pretty irrational, but that's what soured me on the whole thing. Well, that and the name. 00:14:52 shachaf: itym "fiendish" 00:14:59 (And the yards are only about 5 metres on edge) 00:15:00 oh wait 00:15:12 shachaf: yes, "insidious" was really an accident. 00:15:16 wob_jonas: But the reason I'm suspicious is that we've had trouble with these particular neighbors before 00:15:23 afa my conscious mind is concerned, anyway. 00:15:32 oerjan: fiendish 00:16:04 One day last year when one of our other cats (much younger, much more cat-like) got out, they came over to complain about it 00:16:12 hpp: could someone have opened the gate of your yard? 00:16:22 wob_jonas: No, we think we know how he got out 00:16:36 fizzie: quick question: why is there no node.js & npm on hackego? :P 00:16:36 wob_jonas: I'm wondering about why he was there 00:16:51 Because apparently she was showing up in their yard and they were annoyed because they were trying to attract birds 00:16:59 cats go where they please 00:17:16 wob_jonas: I don't think he wanted to be there, because he was starving when I found him 00:17:39 Moonythedwarf: That's a Gregor question, really. 00:17:42 ouch 00:17:47 hppavilion[1]: you should be happy. one of my mom's friends' cat sneaked into a cellar room somewhere and they didn't find it until it had starved to death hth 00:17:49 So one of them (a woman) came over to complain about it (she apparently did not understand that pumpkin would not stay inside) 00:17:57 oerjan: Now I'm sad 00:18:11 And she pretty much walked directly into out house 00:18:21 Like, we answered the door and she just stepped inside to start complaining 00:19:29 (Note for foreigners who may or may not have the same customs (I don't know if this varies): In the US, someone answering the door is not an invitation to enter. It's EXTREMELY rude, and a little bit aggressive, to walk in without an explicit invitation) 00:19:48 ouch 00:19:59 And I found him in their yard today, seemingly trapped 00:20:50 One of our neighbors (probably the same one) brought the youngcat (Pumpkin) to the pound today 00:21:13 hpp: my brother otld me stories about their cat and the evil neighbor, but not quite the same story. 00:21:32 shachaf: oh. i didn't really "miss" the message, but since i'd already reached the count i didn't keep searching for more. 00:21:34 And my best guess is that Pete went to their house when he realized he was ready to come home thinking it was ours (they're 2 doors down, so the same side of the duplex) and started complaining 00:21:36 evil neighbors hating your cat must be a trope or something 00:21:45 wob_jonas: It's a thing, definitely 00:22:11 And they had already dealt with a cat today, so they just grabbed him and put him in their back yard until they could take him to the pound too 00:24:43 (I believe when I first saw him, he was in front of their back door wanting to get in- their back door is different from ours, so he probably didn't think it was us, and he would've just left if he could- but he was complaining to try to get inside, as if he'd already been in there) 00:25:25 I knocked on their door to ask if I could enter their back yard, but no one seemed to be home, so I eventually just opened their gate on my own, got him out as quickly as possible (it took longer than expected because he went and hid so I had to get food), and left 00:26:00 So if they did trap him, they don't know that I showed up and retrieved him, and they may not know he's gone 00:26:30 If he was just there and they had nothing to do with it, they won't know he was there at all (or they'd have just shooed him away) 00:26:51 And I'm wondering if there's some sort of gambit (like a Batman Gambit or a Xanatos Gambit) that we could use to see which it is based on what knowledge they have 00:27:44 heh 00:27:53 Moonythedwarf: That's a Gregor question, really. <-- i thought there _was_ node.js somewhere and a program that used it. although perhaps not in the usual path. of course npm won't work assuming that needs network. 00:28:07 wob_jonas: Any ideas? 00:28:11 Mmmaybe. 00:28:42 There is a js interpreter at least, I think. 00:29:15 Clearly npm won't work but I think probably Node.js should be added on HackEgo 00:29:29 My best idea is to pretend we haven't found him yet and ask if we can check their yard 00:29:32 (But, omit npm) 00:29:33 hppavilion[1]: btw in norway most cats roam freely, so someone like your neighbor would probably be laughed at. 00:29:42 oerjan: Yeah 00:29:53 You should add version 5 or 6 00:30:17 `` rhino Rhino 1.7 release 3 2012 02 13 \ js> 00:31:08 PRogram i have (clone of mr polybot's calculator for starts) _requires_ node to run 00:31:24 And if they say no, the most likely case is they think he's there and they don't want us to know we trapped him 00:31:50 But if they know he's gone, they have nothing to lose 00:32:35 Alternatively, we could say we just saw him back there, but then they might say yes even if they DO know he's there so that we don't think they're suspicious 00:32:42 oerjan: Do you know of any sort of gambit that'd work here? 00:33:01 hpp: sorry, I'm very bad at social engineering, so I'm definitely the wrong person to ask about this. maybe try one of the other nerds here. 00:33:08 Ah, yes 00:35:21 Who here was the expert on differential forms? 00:35:23 oerjan? 00:36:31 hppavilion[1]> (Note for foreigners who may or may not have the same customs (I don't know if this varies): <-- certainly rude in norway unless you know someone very well 00:36:34 i can install the other requirements (packages) via the power of 00:36:54 oerjan: Figured, seems like one of the more universal customs 00:39:50 OK, who here CAN do some social engineering? 00:40:09 Moonythedwarf: what? 00:42:16 And I'm wondering if there's some sort of gambit (like a Batman Gambit or a Xanatos Gambit) that we could use to see which it is based on what knowledge they have <-- hah, i was tempted to try that the other day in this channel. but i decided to let it go. you know who you are, unless it was the other one hth 00:43:07 hpp: although I was quite proud today of a completely accidental piece of social engineering I've done that might or might not have even worked 00:43:14 not really engineering either 00:43:19 ...wookipedia has...http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Color 00:44:15 I commented on the blog of one geek person to point at the blog of another geek person with very similar interests, and now the first one seems to read the second one's blog, and backwards, which is a good thing, right? 00:45:15 <_46bit> a very good thing 00:45:18 <_46bit> you're a matchmaker 00:45:49 <_46bit> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPa0TiCuvR4 00:46:06 hppavilion[1]: seems reasonable to me 00:48:56 oerjan? <-- certainly not. i might be able to remember the basics if i try hard, which i don't feel like. 00:52:58 like, you do that product of formal variables divided out by antisymmetry thing 00:53:16 so x ^ x = 0 and x ^ y = - (y ^ x) 00:53:32 i suppose you'd usually put dx or dy 00:53:46 but these can be general vector space elements 00:53:56 `? differential forms 00:53:57 differential forms? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 00:54:03 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian). 00:54:10 `? tanebventions: math 00:54:11 Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms. 00:54:21 Taneb didn't invent differential forms? 00:54:52 `?differential forms 00:54:52 /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?differential: not found 00:54:57 `? differential forms 00:54:58 differential forms? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 00:55:02 nope 00:55:05 He invented D-modules. 00:55:11 ah 00:55:26 if you have a basis { e_i } for a vector space, then the corresponding n-forms have basis elements like e_i_1 ^ e_i_2 ^ ... ^ e_i_n where i is increasing 00:55:53 *strictly increasing 00:55:56 and then you do antisymmetric tensor products 00:56:05 ah yes, that's what you mean by the ^ 00:56:08 oerjan: So unordered sets of basis elements? 00:56:09 I think it should be spelled /\ though 00:56:30 wob_jonas: ok, i'm going by vague memory here 00:56:43 oerjan: you're doing a good job for not feeling like remembering the basics tdh 00:56:50 shachaf: no, not just unordered sets. antisymmetric tensor products 00:57:01 shachaf: no, they're ordered, but you only do the increasing ones because the others are equivalent to the increasing ones times a sign by antisymmetry 00:57:18 or you could do only decreasing, i guess. 00:57:35 Is that not equivalent? 00:58:14 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:58:48 shachaf: well i guess. you're supposed to extend ^ to arbitrary vectors though 00:59:11 I meant that those are the basis elements, which you can then define ^ in terms of. 00:59:12 which requires keeping track of sign of the permutations 00:59:15 But maybe that doesn't simplify anything. 00:59:50 shachaf: well i guess it might. 01:00:40 Anyway I thought dx was usually vector in the cotangent space or something like that? 01:00:43 then you would define e_i_1 ^ e_i_2 ^ e_i_3 ... more generally as {i_1, ..., i_n} times the sign of the permutation 01:01:15 shachaf: well sure, after you've defined this, you apply it to cotangent bundles or what it was 01:01:35 shachaf: yes, of which the e are a basis of 01:02:43 i suppose you don't have to go via basis, but can just do it abstractly as a quotient, but the basis helps with calculations? 01:03:45 oerjan: the basis gives the definition, but then of course you have to prove this stuff is consistent as in if you change the basis you can extend the change of basis to the antisymmetric tensor product space such that it keeps the antisymmetric tensor product operation. 01:04:24 which is important, because you need change of basis if you can't give a single basis everywhere on the manifold 01:05:09 oerjan: you're doing a good job for not feeling like remembering the basics tdh <-- i started feeling a little better hth 01:05:40 And then you need to define the antisymmetric differential operator (denoted by a mirrored six) which takes (a suitably smooth functions from the manifold to one of these spaces) to (a suitably smooth function from the manifold to the next one of these spaces), 01:05:56 and the big surprise is that mirrored six composited to mirrored six turns out to be zero! 01:06:01 Also, there's some stuff with duals. 01:06:07 I dunno what I'm talking about either. 01:06:15 wob_jonas: Mirrored six? Isn't this one usually just written as d? 01:06:18 But I think there are nerds on the internet who do this. 01:06:25 shachaf: yeah, it's a d, I'm just stupid 01:06:56 wob_jonas: i suppose the antisymmetric tensor product is the universal object through which you can factor antisymmetric linear functions. which might be more to shachaf's liking. 01:07:21 oerjan: uh, that sounds nice, I've no idea what it means 01:07:33 oh 01:07:43 um, dunno 01:09:13 it means that if you have U and V, then U /\ V is a vector space such that for any W, and any antisymmetric bilinear function f : (U, V) -> W, there is a unique g : U /\ V -> W such that f = g o (/\) 01:09:23 or something very close to that. 01:09:44 (if you dropped the antisymmetric, you'd get the usual tensor product this way) 01:10:59 now, the next step is to note that the basis definition fulfils this, after which you can essentially throw it away and use the universal property from there on. 01:11:14 oh hm 01:11:25 you cannot use different U and V there 01:11:47 um 01:11:49 which means, i guess, you need to consider all U /\ U /\ ... /\ U simultaneously 01:12:13 wob_jonas: antisymmetry makes no sense if you're not starting with identical vector spaces 01:12:21 i just realized that 01:12:23 that sounds true but I don't really understand what the point of that is. that doesn't sound like factoring, it just sounds like extending, 01:12:41 where you define the function g such that f gives its value on the basis elements of the tensor-product space 01:12:50 wob_jonas: well it's a category theoretical universal property, they all look like that. 01:13:01 heh 01:13:15 oerjan: but how does the antisymmetric derivative and the duality come into all this? 01:13:31 wob_jonas: the thing is, once you have done this, the fact that it's all invariant under basis changes becomes completely trivial 01:13:52 what? why? 01:14:26 I mean, the part where what becomes invariant? 01:14:35 because universal objects defined by the same universal property are automatically isomorphic. 01:15:22 what? 01:15:23 wob_jonas: well the universal property gives you a definition of /\ which does not speak about the basis of the original spaces 01:15:36 hmm 01:16:41 it's true that it doesn't speak about the basis of U^n, but does it completely determine the U/\.../\U space? 01:19:16 yes, up to isomorphism. 01:19:36 consider if you had two objects fulfilling this. 01:20:10 T1 and T2, with corresponding embeddings /\_1 and /\_2 01:20:24 ok, I'm looking what crazy category theory argument you're going to pull on me 01:20:51 universal properties are tg 01:21:29 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 01:22:07 then note that f (v1, ..., vn) = v1 /\_2 v2 /\_ ... /\_ vn is an antisymmetric multilinear function, so by the universal property of T1, you have g : T1 -> T2 such that f = g o (... /\_1 ... /\_1 ...) (i hope you can guess what the notation means) 01:22:29 er missed some 2's up there 01:23:01 oh of course the property should also say that g is linear 01:23:20 sure, you need linearity everywhere 01:23:34 and the other way you get g' : T2 -> T1, and it's easy to show g and g' are inverses. 01:23:46 thus T1 and T2 are isomorphic. 01:24:19 yeah, something like that probably works 01:24:23 typical category theory stuff 01:24:25 this is just about how these arguments always go. 01:24:34 yeah 01:25:16 don't take this in a bad way, I also do such abstract arguments sometimes, I just also like the humor in how we do them instead of the more easy to understand concrete stuff it translates to 01:25:44 It's maybe only hard to understand because you made him spell it out. 01:25:53 Otherwise you can just say that it's a universal property. 01:26:02 Or that it's initial in some category or something. 01:26:14 that just makes it worse! 01:26:32 The trouble is describing the category that you care about, but you need to do that anyway, except you normally do it implicitly. 01:27:12 wob_jonas: of course half the point is that once you have seen one case of this, you don't really have to relearn it completely for the next case 01:27:27 sure! 01:27:38 so it's a one time cost, after which you can use universal properties everywhere 01:27:54 universal properties are the best 01:28:32 they're p. good 01:28:36 that's how all this abstract maths stuff works. you prove some crazy general theorem and then hope you can use it more than once 01:28:47 oerjan: well, they have to be the best 01:28:51 that's what universality is hth 01:28:52 the pgraph minors theorem is stupid 01:28:56 *graph 01:29:03 pooch graph 01:29:04 shachaf: well in theory they could also be the worst 01:29:13 -!- moonythedwarf_ has joined. 01:29:16 itym cobest hth 01:29:22 COKAY 01:29:34 -!- Moonythedwarf has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:34:52 shachaf: ok, so was there something more specific about differential forms you wanted to know? I presume you didn't just want to find out why the wedge tensor product is well-defined. 01:35:07 Well, that was pretty good. 01:35:21 I got a book about smooth manifolds so I think maybe I'll read that. 01:35:30 yeah, but I still don't know what's up with the d operator and the duals 01:36:39 I mean, I know once you do the d o d = 0 theorem generally, you'll get about five of those basic integral theorems on R**2 and R**3 that have fancy individual names, like the Green's theorem and stuff. 01:36:56 But still. 01:37:08 Well, Stokes' theorem is obviously the best one. 01:37:54 green's theorem is like warm-up. 01:38:06 And I think one of the goals for working with differentiable functions on manifolds is to be able to define invariants of manifolds, as in topological invariants or differentiable invariants, 01:38:24 which you can use that two manifolds are not isomorphic in some way, 01:38:33 Is Stokes' theorem an adjunction? 01:38:49 and eventually prove rigorously that a donut isn't a sphere. 01:39:55 Not even up to homotopically equivalence. 01:40:06 Which is kind of nice to know, and pretty hard to prove otherwise I think. 01:40:19 wob_jonas: that's not too hard since they have different fundamental groups. 01:41:34 i'm not sure how much differentiable stuff helps with proving topological invariants, i didn't learn it that way. 01:42:59 wob_jonas: now, proving that R^m is not R^n for m/=n is a bit harder. 01:44:43 can you distinguish wisdom entries by their fundamental grep? 01:45:09 yes hth 01:46:58 -!- lambda-11235 has left ("Bye"). 01:47:01 Also, I think physicists use this differentiable forms on manifolds stuff too, for some physical reasons. Maybe they want basis-invariant physical laws because they find them nicer or something. 01:51:36 [wiki] [[User talk:Malbranche]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49700 * Oerjan * (+158) Thanks! 01:52:53 [wiki] [[User talk:Malbranche]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49701&oldid=49700 * Oerjan * (+23) Um there was more 01:54:21 wob_jonas: general relativity has coordinate-invariance as one of its fundamental principles. 01:55:48 and iirc, in other cases, it helps determining which properties of your physical system are really fundamental rather than just an accident of description. 01:57:22 right 01:57:44 But what I don't get is, why is the d operator actually important? Does it have some sort of universal property? 01:57:49 (i recall reading terry tao used differential geometry when investigating variants of fluid dynamics recently. 01:57:52 ) 01:59:14 What is it that singles out the d operator (up to constant factor) from the other ((M->U^/\n)->(M->U^/\(n+1))) operators? 02:00:09 well general relativity doesn't use that d iirc, unless there's a reformulation which does 02:00:26 (it wasn't based on antisymmetry) 02:00:29 -!- `^_^v has joined. 02:01:21 wob_jonas: it might be that dd = 0 determines it up to equivalence, or something... 02:01:40 also, dd= 0 is the property you want for things that define homologies. 02:02:03 (aka i don't really know the answer) 02:02:23 or wait hm 02:08:10 I thought so, but then someone in another channel said it was a Google thing. <-- sounds google to me 02:13:19 oerjan: dd = 0 can't determine it alone, you need some other property too 02:14:50 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 02:14:52 I mean, if dd=0 is the only thing you want, then why couldn't you just move U^/\n in place with some non-singular linear transform to itself but leave the U^/\k for all k!=n alone? 02:14:59 That would change d. 02:15:43 There has to be something that treats U^/\n as more than just a vector space. 02:15:47 presumably stokes' theorem is what makes it important. 02:17:16 That doesn't explain anything. 02:17:21 oh right, de Rham's theorem is what i was looking for. 02:17:30 Why is stokes theorem important, as in, why do you want a theorem about that particular differential form? 02:18:42 De Rham's theorem? Dunno, I feel there has to be some lower level explanation than that. 02:19:06 It has to involve /\ somewhere. 02:19:35 As in /\ on the vectors, not /\ on the vector spaces. 02:19:42 Oh well, I dunno, good night. 02:19:45 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 02:20:50 -!- `^_^v has joined. 02:23:19 @tell wob_jonas i mean that stokes' theorem tells you how to get d from integration, essentially. 02:23:19 Consider it noted. 02:24:31 @tell wob_jonas oh, and of course i mean the _generalized_ stokes' theorem, that includes all the special cases like green's theorem. 02:24:31 Consider it noted. 02:25:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:34:15 what fraction of all english words would you guess are ALL CAPS 02:37:13 <\oren\> If he wins, the cold war is over, with victory to Russia <-- you make it sound like a good thing 02:41:48 helloerjan 02:42:23 hitopia 02:42:25 food -> 02:47:32 -!- moonythedwarf_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:48:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:52:31 `? os 02:52:31 Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway. 03:07:00 fizzie: Hmm, Apache Drill might be able to do it. 03:07:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:07:37 drill drill baby 03:08:07 oops permute that 03:11:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:16:39 so i was testing things 03:16:51 and i made a http request to icanhazip.com with netcat 03:17:01 try it ^ 03:18:03 this is so cool, i'll write them 03:19:11 fizzie: Also I can convert to JSON and then query for many use cases. 03:19:16 fizzie: You recommend jq for that? 03:36:44 -!- bibibi has quit (Quit: bibibi). 03:37:17 @tell gamemanj I wonder why so many people are unaffiliated? <-- it's the only cloak you can get if you're not part of a group that's officially on freenode, me thinks 03:37:17 Consider it noted. 03:38:14 And you might prefer to get it even if you are affiliated. 03:38:41 yeah i rephrased myself in the middle of writing that because of that 03:41:58 izabera: That work good. 03:43:42 -!- bibibi has joined. 03:43:48 It supports headerless HTTP even; that is very good. 03:45:04 Now I can more easily check what is my global IP address, because I made a shell script of it. 03:45:23 (I have a router, so the computer's own IP address is not the same as the address accessible by internet.) 03:51:49 If you are using other format and then convert to JSON and then query for many use cases, is there a JavaScript module to do that with? If there is no such things on npm then I or you could add those program on 03:53:27 zzo38: And Chrome just deprecated HTTP/0.9, too... :) 03:54:29 too soon 03:55:20 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 03:55:58 pikhq: That shouldn't matter much since it is the client rather than the server. 03:56:41 True, it only really prevents Chrome from working with HTTP/0.9-only servers, while servers are still perfectly free to still support HTTP/0.9-only clients. 03:57:05 There's probably nearly zero HTTP/0.9-only servers. Or clients for that matter, but it's also lower impact to support for servers. 03:57:44 It is useful for the server to support it for use with clients that are not HTTP clients, mainly. 03:57:56 I'm often an HTTP/0.9 client. 03:59:03 And it's trivial to tell if a request is an HTTP/0.9 request, unlike for responses. 03:59:31 With responses, you start getting not-headers and it *might* be an HTTP/0.9 response, or it might be some server being busted. 03:59:43 With requests, you see the "GET" line doesn't have a verrsion number. 04:01:01 Yes. Making a HTTP client working with HTTP/0.9-only servers is probably a bit messy anyways, so a client should not need this functionality. It is a very useful functionality for servers to have though. (If a HTTP client does want to support HTTP/0.9-only servers too, it should probably be a user option.) 04:04:41 (If you don't need support for HTTP headers and stuff in your server, don't make a HTTP/0.9-only server; make a gopher server instead.) 04:05:04 No, no one uses Gopher. 04:05:21 make it a http 1.0 server maybe? 04:05:34 i heard that http 1.0 supports http 1.0 headers 04:10:34 Yes, you can support HTTP/0.9 and HTTP/1.0 in one server; implement both. You don't need a HTTP/0.9-only server though. 04:11:32 A simple HTTP/1.0 client isn't too bad either, for that matter. 04:11:49 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 04:12:45 Yes, and it is a good idea for any HTTP client to support that. However, the server probably ought to support HTTP/0.9 too. 04:13:08 Considering HTTP/1.0 requires it from servers, I agree. :) 04:13:51 pikhq | A simple HTTP/1.0 client isn't too bad either, for that matter. <- then why are they taking so long to develop chrome and firefox?!? 04:14:56 Because those do a *lot* more than HTTP/1.0. 04:15:11 oh. 04:17:20 [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49702 * 12Me21 * (+1928) created the page lol XD 04:18:07 [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49703&oldid=49702 * 12Me21 * (+10) added proper file extension 04:19:05 [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49704&oldid=49703 * 12Me21 * (-143) removed influenced because LIES 04:20:17 <\oren\> (written in BASIC) 04:20:34 <\oren\> trololo 04:20:51 [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49705&oldid=49704 * 12Me21 * (+0) replaced [] with the correct symbols 04:22:03 Hrm, I once again have an Internet-connected DOS VM. 04:22:09 If only I had *any* use for such a machine. 04:22:58 Are you in Colorado? 04:23:38 if e tries to edit the Main Page too, e gets a block. 04:26:04 admittedly featuring it _might_ have some positive effects, in theory. 04:30:17 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM 04:30:48 <\oren\> once again I have been wtching this over and over for half an hour 04:32:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:34:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Goodbye). 04:36:52 shachaf: Not quite yet. 04:39:38 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:39:47 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=astISOttCQ0 04:47:03 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3owVbVZNKs 04:47:06 @ask Taneb Never whence being taken as when <-- what about twice? 04:47:06 Consider it noted. 04:47:23 <\oren\> ok now I'm just linking crazy memes of the earyl 2000's 04:51:05 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL6CDFn2i3I 04:52:34 If you make up a esoteric programming language called "Main Page", then what are you going to do about it? 04:53:01 (Or even, a book or movie or anything called "Main Page", and if a Wikipedia article should be needed.) 04:57:46 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17FEtaiWdVg 05:03:37 -!- FireFly has joined. 05:07:54 Cousin Itt and the Thing are really quite distinct. <-- one is handsome, the other is hair 05:12:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 05:16:22 -!- FireFly has joined. 05:55:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:07:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:31 -!- puckipedia has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:31 -!- Lymia has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:31 -!- sewilton has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:31 -!- Slereah has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:31 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:31 -!- staffehn has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:31 -!- pelegreno has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:31 -!- APic has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:31 -!- hydraz has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:31 -!- mtve has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:31 -!- Caesura has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:31 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- shikhin has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- trn has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- xfix has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- MDude has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- ski has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- JX7P has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- myname has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- pdxleif has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- ocharles has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- prooftechnique has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- Guest66666 has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- sirnaysayer has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:32 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split). 06:07:33 -!- Tiktalik has quit (*.net *.split). 06:09:09 -!- pelegreno has joined. 06:23:09 -!- ocharles has joined. 06:25:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:25:04 -!- puckipedia has joined. 06:25:04 -!- Lymia has joined. 06:25:04 -!- sewilton has joined. 06:25:04 -!- Slereah has joined. 06:25:04 -!- aloril has joined. 06:25:04 -!- staffehn has joined. 06:43:44 -!- shikhin has joined. 06:58:39 If one were to write the time as 24:10, would Europe scorn one? 06:58:58 i would 06:59:03 not sure about eu 07:01:37 Base prime: Given the standard functions along with the additional pmor(x) and ples(x), which return the smallest prime number greater than x and the greatest prime number less than x (fallback on 0) respectively 07:02:31 bprime(n) := ples(n)+(n-ples(n))/(pmor(n)-ples(n)) 07:02:42 Wait 07:03:52 bprime(n) := primenum(ples(n))+(n-ples(n))/(pmor(n)-ples(n)), where primenum(p) takes a prime p and returns its index (primenum(2) = 1, primenum(3) = 2, primenum(5) = 3, 7 -> 4, 11 -> 5, 13 -> 6, etc.) 07:03:59 Yeah, that looks right 07:04:14 <\oren\> right now it's 26:04 07:04:35 <\oren\> at least, according to my computer 07:05:32 <\oren\> irssi is displaying 06:18, I have no idea why 07:07:00 <\oren\> how does a could server end up with such a time offset 07:07:08 <\oren\> s/could/cloud/ 07:13:10 in ISO 8601, 24:00:00 is accepted for the instant at the end of a day, equivalent to 00:00:00 of the next day; but otherwise the hour can't be above 23 07:13:42 I've heard though that tv schedulers use 06 to 30 or so 07:28:28 -!- MoALTz has joined. 07:33:43 deltab: Why? 07:34:35 deltab: I reformed the calendar. To distinguish dates, they are prefixed with "NRC" and the separator is "~" 07:49:59 <\oren\> I reformed the year numbering. Year 0 is 1970. this year is 46 07:54:09 shachaf: I recommend jq for the sort of processing I normally do with ... | sed | awk | sed | grep | perl | ... sort of overly complicated shell "oneliners", if you do have JSON data. 07:55:50 @tell pikhq There was at least one router with a HTTP/0.9-only admin interface, it made them pause a little. Anyway, ISTR in the end they only deprecated HTTP/0.9 for nonstandard ports for now, since that's what the security concern was (mostly) about. 07:56:29 <\oren\> @mesages-loud 07:56:47 net split? 07:57:08 <\oren\> o no, whar iz lamdabot? 07:57:31 A long one. 07:59:06 Or, rather, my client says 28 people left due to a split, one came back, and then there's a dribble of some other people rejoining, but some are still gone. 07:59:10 fungot: At least you're still here. 07:59:11 fizzie: i didnt build it; its a package from ubuntu and php homes of irc-ignorant fnord worldwide. but i think i know where quack is located...... 07:59:38 Did you know a duck's quack doesn't echo? (That's not actually true.) 08:01:53 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3CKZqEiALE 08:02:50 <\oren\> since oerjan was complaining I decided to listen to a wider variety of music 08:06:02 <\oren\> hmm now I want to play HOI4 08:12:13 -!- carado has joined. 08:20:26 * oerjan notes this song in \oren\'s link that has "Stalin" in nearly every line 08:25:39 * oerjan thinks that was a bit much 08:26:29 (to listen to) 08:32:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:33:42 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 08:36:09 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Shouldn't the taxonomic group above Kingdom be Empire? ) 08:37:06 taxonomic groups are so pre-cladistic, anyway 08:37:47 oerjan: Yeah? 08:38:12 oerjan: What about horizontal gene transfer? 08:39:15 can't those cross groups, anyway 08:39:20 oerjan: Yeah 08:39:32 what looks better https://arin.ga/JGh7kM/raw vs https://arin.ga/rREUCG/raw 08:39:40 (I do think we need something above Domain that just means "the beginning"; barring panspermia, it would be so we could sort Jovian life against Earth life) 08:39:49 3 3d arrays or 1 4d array? 08:39:59 According to WordNet, domain is fine: http://sprunge.us/hcfM 08:40:38 Oh, huh, Empire is a thing 08:40:56 Prokaryotes vs Eukaryotes 08:41:09 (spellcheck thinks "Prokaryotes" is a typo of "Protestants") 08:41:23 hppavilion[1]: probably written by a catholic 08:41:53 There's also "Legion" 08:41:58 izabera: In my opinion, if you already have three indices, why not go for broke and have the fourth. 08:42:06 yeeah 08:42:20 (I think we need to resort the species into Democratic Republics instead of Kingdoms) 08:45:17 Domain -> Kingdom -> Subkingdom -> Infrakingdom -> Superphylum -> Phylum -> Subphylum -> Infraphylum -> Microphylum -> Superclass -> Class -> Subclass -> Infraclass -> Parvclass -> Legion -> Cohort -> Magnorder -> Superorder -> Order -> Suborder -> Infraorder -> Parvorder -> Section [zoology only] -> Superfamily -> Family -> Subfamily -> Supertribe -> Tribe -> Subtribe -> Genus -> Subgenus (Church of the?) -> Section (botany only) -> 08:45:17 Series -> Species -> Subspecies -> Variety -> Form 08:46:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 09:04:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:04:28 -!- augur has joined. 09:04:28 -!- xfix has joined. 09:04:28 -!- sirnaysayer has joined. 09:04:28 -!- MDude has joined. 09:04:28 -!- ski has joined. 09:04:28 -!- JX7P has joined. 09:04:28 -!- myname has joined. 09:04:28 -!- pdxleif has joined. 09:04:28 -!- prooftechnique has joined. 09:04:28 -!- lambdabot has joined. 09:04:28 -!- Guest66666 has joined. 09:04:28 -!- pikhq has joined. 09:04:28 -!- Tiktalik has joined. 09:05:11 -!- Caesura has joined. 09:05:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 09:05:11 -!- trn has joined. 09:05:19 -!- APic has joined. 09:05:19 -!- hydraz has joined. 09:05:19 -!- mtve has joined. 09:05:22 -!- augur has changed nick to Guest22293. 09:11:24 -!- `^_^v has joined. 09:19:40 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 09:55:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:15:46 -!- Guest22293 has changed nick to augur. 11:16:16 -!- augur has changed nick to Guest24275. 11:16:43 -!- Guest24275 has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 11:17:29 -!- augur_ has joined. 11:19:13 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 11:30:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:33:41 -!- Janaton has joined. 11:34:35 -!- Janaton has quit (Client Quit). 13:08:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:02:53 -!- Moonythedwarf has joined. 14:12:59 -!- Cale has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:13:48 -!- Cale has joined. 14:38:01 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:15:09 -!- Moonythedwarf has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:15:10 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:16:49 -!- Moonythedwarf has joined. 15:21:22 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:24:07 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 16:06:56 -!- Zarutian has joined. 16:15:30 -!- MDead has joined. 16:18:18 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:18:25 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 17:03:54 Do you like this? 17:19:29