00:03:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's the one I searched, and it provided a list of "other indeterminate forms"
00:04:48 <myname> why's 1^infty indeterminate?
00:04:52 <oerjan> ∞^(-∞) should also work, i think
00:04:56 <hppavilion[1]> 0^0 = 1, 0/0 = tau/2, ∞/∞=1, 0∞ = 0, ∞-∞ = 0, 1^∞ = 1, and ∞^0 = 1
00:05:26 <myname> hppavilion[1]: why is 0^x = 0 except for x=0?
00:05:30 <oerjan> myname: it means basically that when you have limits going to the parts, you cannot say anything about the limit of the whole
00:05:55 <myname> oerjan: i get that, but 1 is not a limit
00:06:08 <oerjan> myname: anything can be a limit
00:06:11 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Because it's useful to have x^0=1 forall x, and x^0 is more important than 0^x, and THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE
00:06:33 <myname> hppavilion[1]: no there cannot
00:06:33 <oerjan> if x -> 1 and y -> ∞, you can say nothing about x^y. that's all.
00:07:03 <myname> oerjan: but i do can say something about 1^x for every x
00:07:14 <hppavilion[1]> myname: 0^0 is either equal to 0 OR 1 OR undefined; you can't have x^0 = 1 and 0^x = 0 forall x
00:07:21 <oerjan> myname: you seem not to get the point.
00:07:42 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that's why it is indeterminate
00:08:56 <oerjan> but it's still indeterminate for calculus purposes.
00:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> If you have two real functions f x and g x that vanish at the origin and are analytic at 0, then (f x)^(g x) approaches 1 as x approaches 0 from the right
00:09:53 <myname> oh, grade publish{d his 69th video
00:09:56 <hppavilion[1]> I don't really understand most of what I just said, but it sounds like a good thing
00:10:27 <oerjan> oh wait, ∞^(-∞) doesn't work, scratch that, it's clearly -> 0.
00:10:28 <hppavilion[1]> I wish I could give him more than one like per video
00:11:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: How does calculus work if you decide to use countable and uncountable infinities?
00:12:21 <hppavilion[1]> But then, when she wanted "the set of all multiples of pi" and I gave {n<pi> | n in Z}
00:12:39 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]> If you have two real functions f x and g x that vanish at the origin and are analytic at 0, then (f x)^(g x) approaches 1 as x approaches 0 from the right <-- wat, i don't believe that.
00:12:53 <hppavilion[1]> Because the form that the book wants is {x | x=n<pi>, n in Z}
00:13:41 <hppavilion[1]> Any mathematician will tell you they're obviously equivalent, and that the notation is pretty standard, but that mine looks better
00:14:03 <hppavilion[1]> (I think she also had the whole numbers as 0,1,2,3... and the naturals as 1,2,3...)
00:14:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the infinities in calculus have nothing to do with cardinalities, so that's just nonsense.
00:14:58 <hppavilion[1]> (And I think maybe she said that you write the irrationals with a blackboard bold I? I've never heard of that being the rule, and I think I saw a thread asking what to use and the answer was "choose whatever and define it at the top")
00:15:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the alternative answer to your question is "lebesgue measure theory" hth
00:15:39 <oerjan> (but then it's not the values that are the infinities, but the sizes of sets)
00:15:44 <hppavilion[1]> (there needs to be a name for the non-zero reals, the positive reals, the positive reals plus zero, the negative reals, and the negative reals plus zero...)
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00:16:18 <myname> "whore houses are like disney land for guys. that is where wet dreams come true"
00:17:12 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Because the form that the book wants is {x | x=n<pi>, n in Z} <-- welcome to "lies to children", i think.
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00:18:35 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Whore houses are just New Orleans square, thankyouverymuch
00:18:57 <hppavilion[1]> A computer that could read set-builder notation would get the same answer
00:19:23 <hppavilion[1]> It isn't even mathematically a "weird notation"- it's normal notation, it just is doing it the stupid way
00:19:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the "do naturals include 0" question splits even professional mathematics, so don't complain _too_ much about hth
00:20:18 <hppavilion[1]> (in fact, I think she asked for the set {1, 2, 3...}- expecting it in set-builder- and I just said "N")
00:21:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The real issue is that one side has WITH zero as "whole numbers" and WITHOUT as "natural numbers", and the other side has WITH zero as "natural numbers" and WITHOUT zero as "whole numbers"
00:21:30 <hppavilion[1]> I think she even said- like, specifically, writing it out- that the whole numbers (in this case with zero) are written with the double-struck W
00:22:06 <hppavilion[1]> Which is presumably true, but nobody ever really does that in my experience and if you used it without defining it 15% of readers would have no idea what you're talking about
00:23:14 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm probably also going to get marked down for replacing variables like t or m- which are stupid variables that you don't use unless you've already used x, y, and z or you're specifically dealing with things like time- with x when there is no other x in this equation)
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00:24:38 <hppavilion[1]> I think she also said that the irrationals are written I, but http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/61269.html claims that I is for the integers (but that Z is also reserved for them, and is more common)
00:24:45 * boily pokes hppavilion[1] in the stability bits
00:25:09 <boily> hppavellon[1]. no, I was on the phone with the SO.
00:25:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm not sure most professional mathematicians use "whole numbers" at all hth
00:25:42 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I've been ranting about the common core (or about my precalc teacher, depending on whether the things she's saying are from the common core)
00:26:07 <boily> what is common core?
00:26:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, but I think mathoverflow said that if the naturals include 0 and you want to refer to the numbers without 0, then you say "whole numbers"
00:26:16 <myname> just use N^+ and N_0 twh
00:26:37 <oerjan> (incidentally, the obvious translation of "whole number" into norwegian (heltall) means integer, period.)
00:26:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That works, but I want to abbreviate it xD
00:27:09 <hppavilion[1]> boily: It's a unified standard in the US that is being used to try to fix our failing education system
00:27:15 <myname> hppavilion[1]: because an extra small symbol takes too much space?
00:27:20 <oerjan> *hele tall, unless you're composing words
00:28:03 <hppavilion[1]> In the general view, it's a rule that says what students need to know at the end of the year at minimum (each year has to teach this list of things if the student hasn't already leaned them: {...})
00:28:44 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Having an extra superscript + or subscript 0 makes it look like there's a set N, and that we're referring to a set derived from it
00:29:28 <hppavilion[1]> boily: In the more specific case, common core takes a rather feeble and over-practicalized view of education, puts it in a too-strict form, and regiments teachers down to the minute
00:30:01 <hppavilion[1]> So teachers can't slow down and spend an extra few days on something that this class has trouble with or skip over a section everybody already knows
00:30:06 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, we do
00:30:43 <hppavilion[1]> boily: For example, there's an image on the internet of a quiz filled out by a third grader or something
00:30:57 <myname> N^+ = { n | n in N, n > 0 } and N_0 = { 0 } cup N
00:31:05 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], from what i've heard common core is mostly a scapegoat
00:31:11 <myname> works for both definitions of N
00:31:14 <hppavilion[1]> And there's a question asking the student to solve "5*3" using "the addition strategy" (which, presumably, is where you just add stuff up)
00:32:15 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but it turns out there's more to it than pictures that go around on facebook
00:32:16 * boily attaches himself to his beloved Canada.
00:32:45 <boily> of course it's hyperbolic and probably apocryphal, but still. it's *juuuust* so believable...
00:33:00 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: But seriously, even if the rest of the system turns kids into ripped supergeniuses, the fact that something like that happened under it is absurd
00:33:15 <quintopia> does fungot string together trigrams or longer or shorter?
00:33:16 <fungot> quintopia: mr president, in its wisdom, that decides whether the measures adopted to date with poultry cages and provide for the continuance of the current member states.
00:34:04 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I don't think it's so much that the book said that doing 5+5+5 is wrong and 3+3+3+3+3 is right so much as it only listed 3+3+3+3+3, and the people in charge of grading the paper were mathematically illiterate and not qualified to be teaching math
00:34:27 <hppavilion[1]> But no matter how well your curriculum tells teachers what to teach, if the teacher doesn't get it the class won't work
00:35:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean a big part of it is that american right-wingers need to feed their 'this country is going to the dogs and we need to go back to the good times' narrative
00:36:12 <Phantom_Hoover> so blaming the common core for every problem in the education system is very attractive to them
00:36:53 <Phantom_Hoover> the 5+5+5 vs. 3+3+3+3+3 thing stems from a reasonable didactic idea that is incredibly stupid when used in a standardised test
00:38:32 <oerjan> <quintopia> does fungot string together trigrams or longer or shorter? <-- variable length
00:38:33 <fungot> oerjan: draftsman of the opinion of an institution that has the power and working methods for cooperation in the fields of teaching and culture, to education and the media, which will be granted to the court of first instance.
00:38:58 <quintopia> oerjan: random variable length? or adaptive?
00:39:50 <ais523> quintopia: IIRC it's a fixed length but the length depends on which ^style is set
00:40:35 <boily> it's not the length that counts, it's how many styles fungot has.
00:40:36 <quintopia> i wonder what we'd get running it on the entire google 3-grams dataset.
00:40:36 <fungot> boily: mr president, of course, not represented here today for this big debate. perhaps just for once i will also be ready by that time the commission made its own contribution. my colleague, mr liikanen, mrs wallström, to issue instructions. i can illustrate the problem using the example of mr cox understanding what was agreed in cardiff and which now goes ahead in the union already have a staff of only some 30 officials who c
00:40:36 <oerjan> iirc it's variable. adaptive presumably.
00:41:18 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
00:41:23 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
00:41:24 <quintopia> i think we need a "trump stump speeches" style
00:42:20 <oerjan> "•Nonsense generation based on variable-length ngram models."
00:42:46 <quintopia> believe me. if fungot spoke like Trump, it would be yuuuge! No one else can make fungot sound better. i kid you not.
00:42:47 <fungot> quintopia: mr president, on the resources available under the fisheries agreement between the council and, of course, to be trying to find solutions other than allowing refugees to settle in any part of the negotiations. on the other the programme for community research and the possible insertion of a specific paragraph or chapter in order to do so, we have studied this report and its recognition that the community structures,
00:44:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49630&oldid=49629 * Darkrifts * (+181)
00:45:25 <ais523> I guess the best way to view this is: if you have a business model that involves picking on rich people who can afford to hire good lawyers, make very very sure you don't do anything illegal
00:46:31 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: If a judge orders you do do something, you do it. You don't publish an article saying "A judge ordered us to do this, but we're just going to ignore him"
00:46:41 <boily> hppavilion[1]: huh? the whole gawker network thing?
00:47:11 <hppavilion[1]> boily: The main blog has shut down (looks like the website will be staying up, at least for a little while, but there'll be no new content)
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01:08:15 <oerjan> another legitimate-looking edit caught in the filter, and no sign of attempting to follow the new procedure :(
01:09:36 <oerjan> otoh i've seen no legitimate _registrations_ yet, so it seems a bit early to declare it a total failure.
01:10:06 <oerjan> quintopia: or they cannot be bothered. it requires registering ++, after all.
01:10:45 <quintopia> oerjan: well, i doubt it's much of a big loss.
01:10:48 <oerjan> probably not something people do just for correcting a couple typos.
01:11:35 <oerjan> quintopia: well it remains to be seen if _anyone_ bothers.
01:12:00 <quintopia> yeah, but if they try to do that and fail, won't their failed attempt be recorded and we can fix whatever they were trying to fix for them?
01:12:37 <oerjan> quintopia: well sure, we could do that recent edit. int-e did one previously. (i'm not sure if it's actually correct, though.)
01:13:29 <oerjan> this requires paying much more attention to the abuse filter log than i've previously done, anyhow.
01:13:44 <oerjan> (and i'm not promising to keep doing it.)
01:14:14 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog/6629
01:14:53 <oerjan> at least int-e could, and he's not an admin.
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01:18:45 <oerjan> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
01:22:49 <quintopia> i like how "denier", traditionally a measure of the fineness of silk or rayon, is now more commonly used (and mispronounced) as "one who denies"
01:23:17 <quintopia> i like to imagine that holocaust denier is a way to measure the fineness of a holocaust
01:29:37 <Zarutian> quintopia: 'deni-er' versus 'dín(a|e)r'
01:31:17 <quintopia> i'm not familiar with this particular phonetic notation system
01:32:12 <quintopia> i guess (a|e) is some way to represent æ as a more drawn-out diphthong?
01:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> unless someone is saying de-nye-er about tights there are no mispronunciations involved
01:38:30 <Zarutian> quintopia: nope it is just that you could have eather a or e there
01:39:35 <myname> quintopia: something similar happened in german to auspowern
01:39:41 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: i could have said "pronounced using a different modernly-invented pronunciation that mayn't even be standard yet" but that would be somewhat wordy
01:40:30 <quintopia> Zarutian: look at Phantom_Hoover's pronunciation guide. it makes a lot more sense than yours
01:41:48 <myname> auspowern used to come from the french pauvre and shifted towars the english power
01:58:56 <\oren\> I am back in YYZ finally!
01:59:08 <lambdabot> CYYZ 240000Z 22012KT 15SM SCT120 BKN250 25/14 A3020 RMK AC4CI1 SLP227 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
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01:59:34 <quintopia> ...oh i thought you meant the rush song
02:03:48 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, here's a way to make your musical notation horrifying
02:05:36 <oerjan> `8ball is my suspicion right?
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02:07:22 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: That would probably be parsed as an unusual way of writing a quarter note.
02:07:47 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: But also include quarter notes so that people are unsure
02:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> And maybe occasionally have notes with the flag on the other side, or mirror the note entirely
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02:08:58 <pikhq> There's a few other novelties you could use, such as the flagged longa. :)
02:09:53 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: no need to obfuscate. you should always strive to make your musical notation as clear and concise as possible. for instance, look how simple and readable that is: https://prestonparish.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/last.gif
02:10:34 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: The point of this is that it's obfuscated, to make the sheet music as intimidating and horrifying as possible
02:10:50 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe a whole note, but filled in like a quarter note's head
02:11:09 <pikhq> quintopia: The further along that gets, the less valid and playable it gets.
02:11:45 <hppavilion[1]> ...does that music require that I take square roots?
02:11:48 <quintopia> pikhq: that last note is wonderful
02:11:51 <pikhq> It starts looking like it's just written for robots or something, and goes all the way into nonsense.
02:12:21 <hppavilion[1]> (since the "filled in head" isn't usually parsed as "make it half the length" the way a flag is due to filling in being non-repeatable, it'd take a bit to figure it out)
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02:12:30 <quintopia> as a former bass player, i can also identify strongly with the 437 measures of rest
02:12:49 <pikhq> As a former bass singer, I too identify with it.
02:12:51 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: How would a note with only half of the notehead filled in be parsed? >:)
02:13:03 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: A punch to the head.
02:13:17 <pikhq> ... Of the composer, I should say.
02:13:20 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: We'll assume that I'm long dead because I wrote classical music
02:13:43 <pikhq> There will be debates in academia about how it was intended to be played for ages.
02:14:37 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll forge a piece of classical music (attribute it to a false (but plausible) composer so it isn't too illegal) and fill it with stuff like this
02:15:01 <hppavilion[1]> And a couple historical documents from other sources claiming it's "perhaps the most beautiful piece ever written" and such
02:17:27 <hppavilion[1]> (hm, how does one write "a chord, but in which some of the notes in it are held for longer than others" in normal notation? I'm certain that there's a simple, generally-accepted way that has been used for centuries because it seems like a pretty simple thing, but I can't remember since it's been years since I picked up a piano)
02:18:08 <quintopia> oh man. botanicsage just mashed up bowsers castle theme from smw with interior crocodile alligator :D
02:19:58 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Write two chords, one with and then one without the notes, and use a tie to connect them.
02:20:30 <hppavilion[1]> (what is the interpretation if you have a chord in which some noteheads are filled and others aren't? Probably something similar)
02:20:46 <hppavilion[1]> (the filled noteheads end a beat before the unfilled ones, almost certainly)
02:20:52 <pikhq> I don't think that would be conventional, but that'd be the likely interpretation.
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02:28:59 <incomprehensibly> hppavilion[1]: that would usually only be used when there are multiple distinguishable voices/parts (e.g. right-hand/left-hand)
02:29:20 <incomprehensibly> i.e. if there is a chord played entirely by the left hand, multiple note values in the same chord would be obfuscatory, and so it would be done using ties
02:29:36 <incomprehensibly> but if there is a left hand chord and a right hand melody, it's ok to have totally different note values
02:29:48 <incomprehensibly> hppavilion[1]: oh it's certainly possible, just confusing to the player and so is generally avoided
02:31:13 <hppavilion[1]> Question: Is it possible to make software that reliably plays relatively real-sounding music given a file that describes the music as a sort of electronic sheet music (probably some sort XML or JSON, but anything would work)?
02:32:08 <hppavilion[1]> (probably designed for music composition so you don't have to, y'know, find an entire orchestra to play it at the drop of a hat to make sure it sounds right)
02:32:34 <hppavilion[1]> incomprehensibly: But I seem to remember MIDI not being exactly what I was going for
02:32:55 <incomprehensibly> which has pretty high quality sample libraries for various real pianos
02:33:26 <incomprehensibly> but "real-sounding" would require stuff like dynamics, interpretation, performance, which would not be contained in the sheet music and kind of depends on a human being there either to record the performance or to tweak all the notes
02:33:53 <hppavilion[1]> And are there any editors that use either something that looks approximately like real musical notation (WYSIWYGily) or a relatively easy DSL?
02:33:59 <incomprehensibly> and you COULD write a program to fake all that stuff in a way that a good pianist would be able to tell was nonsense but could probably trick most people
02:35:02 <hppavilion[1]> incomprehensibly: LilyPond is what sent me on this track, and it's been compared to Sibelius and Finale as being about the same, but LilyPond, AFAICT, doesn't play the music; just makes the sheet out of LaTeX
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02:42:08 <hppavilion[1]> (It looks like LilyPond is extensible, so someone is bound to have made a synthesizer by now)
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04:17:09 <zzo38> AmigaMML is another program you can write music with, although it cannot output MIDI files. You can include dynamics and other stuff though, and does not require Amiga computer to be use
04:18:01 <zzo38> I think that XML is pretty bad for stuff that isn't markup-text
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06:56:19 <hppavilion[1]> "Where could you have possibly gotten that idea?": Normal; "Where could you have possibly gotten that idea\?": Sarcastic
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07:26:18 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe_Protection_Society is funny
07:26:48 <hppavilion[1]> "It is not clear in what sense the APS is a society, or how many members it has (if any), or from where it claims authority for its views. John Richards has never published a constitution, a list of members, or the criteria (if any) for membership. It is not known in what sense he is the chairman, how he was elected or appointed, or how he might be removed."
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07:38:20 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh, inanimate whose is one of the little holes in English that, once you notice it, you can't close it
07:38:35 <hppavilion[1]> Some people use "of which", but others (including me) think it sounds overly formal
07:39:07 <hppavilion[1]> (but not quite; there's no glottal stop so it's more like... "whichs"
07:39:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `huh'': not found
07:40:50 <hppavilion[1]> So what does #esoteric think about the inanimate whose?
07:47:42 <hppavilion[1]> I just reverted a vandalized Wikipedia page to an unvandalized revision!
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08:36:24 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Some of the styles have a fixed length, but the majority are based on variable-length models trained with https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN
08:36:31 <fizzie> quintopia: As above. ^
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09:10:25 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I tend to anthropomorphise inanimate objects to some extent anyway, inanimate whose doesn't bug me at all
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11:05:55 <zgrep> "Don't anthropomorphise ____, they *hate* that!"
11:25:03 <int-e> zgrep: don't you hate being anthropomorphised?'
11:25:21 <int-e> . o O ( "look at zgrep, he looks almost human!" )
11:26:19 <zgrep> It's so annoying being mistaken for something that has human qualities.
11:27:27 * zgrep is such a tool, found in every computer, essentially being gzip -d | grep
11:27:56 <int-e> . o O ( zcat | grep )
11:28:31 * zgrep . o O ( I wonder why int-e doesn't use a CTCP action. )
11:28:52 * zgrep . o O ( . o O ( . o O ( ... ) ) )
11:28:58 <int-e> zless is perhaps the program in that family that I use most often.
11:29:04 <zgrep> Cogito ergo cogito.
11:29:31 * zgrep doesn't actually use any of the z* commands... ._.
11:29:39 <int-e> zgrep: because in the context where I developed the habit (some MUD), the output would've looked like this: [int-e . o O ( foo )]
11:29:49 <int-e> and it's not an alias.
11:30:24 * zgrep . o O ( Programs with aliases, they're hiding from someone, they must be criminals! )
11:30:31 * zgrep . o O ( Or spies! )
11:32:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: speedtest: not found
11:32:42 <zgrep> HackEgo has sped up?
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11:34:50 <HackEgo> applicative functor//Applicative functors are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
11:36:53 <zgrep> @tell zgrep Hello.
11:37:29 <zgrep> @tell lambdabot Hello.
11:37:44 <zgrep> @tell thispersondoesnotexistyet Hello.
11:41:08 <boily> int-ello, zgrellop.
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11:41:53 * zgrep boils boily as a greeting
11:43:18 <HackEgo> AlexR42: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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12:02:24 <b_jonas> I'm reading the scrollback again, about crazy sheets of five-line musical staff notation maybe parodies or maybe obfuscated stuff at https://prestonparish.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/viral-sheet-music-the-creative-notation-of-john-stump-and-others/
12:26:37 <boily> fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOÔOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
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14:31:56 <Jafet> the CC0 license is surprisingly bloated
14:32:02 <Jafet> https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode
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14:47:30 <oerjan> Jafet: it's not so surprising when you think about how it's trying to work in jurisdictions whose laws are actively hostile to the idea of relinquishing author rights.
15:10:41 <int-e> That sounds so negative, but it is oddly approproate.
15:16:53 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> Ugh, inanimate whose is one of the little holes in English that, once you notice it, you can't close it <-- wiktionary says _formerly proscribed_
15:19:16 * oerjan notes that the corresponding norwegian pronoun is archaic. no idea if it was proscribed for inanimates.
15:42:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: which pronoun, "min"?
15:51:15 <quintopia> i have no idea how one would generate nonsense from a variable length language model. how do you know how far back to read?
15:53:12 <oerjan> it might not be _entirely_ archaic, but definitely excessively formal.
15:53:47 <quintopia> hvis is an inanimate relative possessive pronoun?
15:54:10 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm pretty sure those variable length models involved PhDs hth
15:55:10 <oerjan> ok it's a pretty sure hunch
15:55:11 <quintopia> i still feel like i should be able to understand it
15:56:09 <oerjan> quintopia: i assume there's a cutoff formula or algorithm.
15:58:01 <Jafet> isn't oerjan an expert in knowing how far back to read?
16:03:53 <fizzie> quintopia: As far back as you have matching context in the model, with a probability based on the backoff weight of using a shorter context sometimes.
16:05:28 <quintopia> fizzie: how does the model generator decide what length contexts to include?
16:06:06 <fizzie> quintopia: https://sites.google.com/site/vesassiivola/publications/TASLP2007.pdf
16:08:41 <oerjan> told you there was a PhD.
16:09:48 <fizzie> Well, there's a more approachable overview in chapter 3 of https://sites.google.com/site/vesassiivola/publications/is2007less.pdf
16:12:35 <quintopia> nah that paper goves me a decent idea even if i dont know what kneser-ney smoothing is. pretty clever.
16:12:51 <oerjan> . o O ( tool assisted speed linguistic programming )
16:13:11 <int-e> oerjan: you may be reading a tad too fast
16:13:24 <oerjan> int-e: you're assuming i'm actually reading?
16:13:49 <int-e> oerjan: it's something that empirically, you are often doing
16:14:20 <int-e> and I'm often making assumptions
16:14:32 <int-e> so nobody should be surprised.
16:14:55 <quintopia> you cant be sure oerjan isnt just skimming, reading only a word here or there and making up the parts in between
16:14:56 <int-e> oerjan: I'm sure, can you provide evidence to the contrary?
16:15:41 <int-e> . o O ( is_mega_non_overlapping )
16:15:51 <oerjan> quintopia: in fact the only part of that link i read was the picture captions at the end, and only to check i wasn't lying hth
16:16:23 <oerjan> (i checked afterwards, of course)
16:19:33 <oerjan> int-e: i'm sure TASPL would be a thing if fizzie and ais523 would just cooperate on it.
16:22:41 <fizzie> Fun fact I learned the other day: Subversion respects an environment variable called SVN_I_LOVE_CORRUPTED_WORKING_COPIES_SO_DISABLE_SLEEP_FOR_TIMESTAMPS, which you can set to "yes" to disable a wait it does in many places to ensure filesystem timestamps have changed.
16:23:41 <HackEgo> california//California is pronounced "Caliphate-ornery-I-A"
16:25:25 <fizzie> Apparently it's something the test suite uses to make the tests not take so long.
16:27:56 <fizzie> There's three other similarly named knobs; SVN_I_LOVE_CORRUPTED_WORKING_COPIES_SO_DISABLE_RELOCATE_VALIDATION, SVN_I_LIKE_LATENCY_SO_IGNORE_HTTPV2 and SVN_I_LOVE_PANGALACTIC_GARGLE_BLASTERS.
16:29:04 <fizzie> (If the last one is set and the file revision number is 42, it prints a humorous message as part of the commit message.)
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16:43:37 <\oren\> oh, it can use http or use its own protocol
16:54:46 <\oren\> by the way, they are apparently making progress toward shutting down the quickbooks dude
16:56:50 <lambdabot> CYYZ 241500Z 18007KT 140V200 15SM FEW030 BKN250 25/17 A3016 RMK CU2CI3 SLP212 DENSITY ALT 1600FT
17:01:27 <oerjan> \oren\: the quickbooks dudes seem to have stopped attacking our wiki for now, at least.
17:02:09 <oerjan> (the new filter is catching several other kinds of spam, though.)
17:02:23 <\oren\> oerjan: I mean that the telephone company is shutting down their fraudulent help line
17:02:52 <oerjan> but i assume they would have no reason to spam a phone number that isn't working.
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18:22:43 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 5m 49s ago: <hppavilion[1]> Ugh, inanimate whose is one of the little holes in English that, once you notice it, you can't close it <-- wiktionary says _formerly proscribed_
18:28:18 <Taneb> One of my friends has been trying to get an FTP server to connect to irc
18:31:31 <ais523> Taneb: via getting it to upload a file to Freenode that has IRC-like lines at the start?
18:31:50 <ais523> IIRC many IRC servers have been modified to close the connection if they see anything that looks like it's part of the wrong protocol
18:31:55 <Taneb> I'm not sure of the specifics
18:32:26 <Taneb> He could set a nick but freenode makes you wait until a 001 before you can join a channel
18:32:27 <ais523> due to things like the web-based worm we had a while back (basically it posted links to a web page, and if you visited that web page, you'd spam the link into other channels because it convinced your browser to connect to an IRC server)
18:32:56 <ais523> that sounds like another sort of fix to the same problem
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18:43:34 <zemhill__> david_werecat.neutrino: points -4.74, score 26.58, rank 2/47
18:44:00 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE]
18:44:29 <ais523> ooh, is someone jousting beind our back? :-D
18:48:47 <zemhill__> david_werecat.neutrino: points -4.57, score 26.68, rank 2/47 (--)
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19:00:16 <\oren\> warning: '&&' within '||'
19:01:05 <\oren\> why not warning: '*' within '+'
19:01:27 <\oren\> warning: '-' within '=='
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19:04:30 <HackEgo> Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
19:05:37 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/icbm: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/fternooner:fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry. \ wisdom/gasp
19:06:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/gaspasjo:gaspasjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ wisdom/fternooner:fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry. \ wisdom/møøse:Møøse is Norwegian for moss. \ wisdom/lexer:lexer is a maximally Norwegian painter. Its squares
19:06:30 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: temp/wegians: No such file or directory
19:06:39 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: shr/wegians: No such file or directory
19:06:44 <HackEgo> advice \ bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:06:46 <\oren\> `learn Warnings indicate whn you are doing something dangerous, like using operator precedence.
19:06:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'warning': Warnings indicate whn you are doing something dangerous, like using operator precedence.
19:06:58 <\oren\> `learn Warnings indicate when you are doing something dangerous, like using operator precedence.
19:07:02 <HackEgo> Relearned 'warning': Warnings indicate when you are doing something dangerous, like using operator precedence.
19:07:10 <HackEgo> File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.
19:07:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:07:31 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: use paste
19:07:56 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.2574
19:09:14 <hppavilion[1]> `learn A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
19:09:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'wegian': A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
19:09:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Soletur1970 * New user account
19:11:49 <zemhill__> david_werecat.neutrino: points 0.67, score 32.21, rank 2/47 (--)
19:11:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Soletur1970]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled): Quickbooks spammer
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19:13:15 <HackEgo> Roxxik: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:17:59 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: try using a custom adblock to remove the links
19:21:03 <\oren\> I also recommend removing the wall street journal (paywall), breitbart and the new york observer (propaganda), vox and the huffington post (propaganda),
19:23:16 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: At this point, twitter and reddit, probably
19:23:52 <hppavilion[1]> Reddit: The only news site where you can block bullshit
19:25:21 <\oren\> Oh I also read the Register
19:25:40 <\oren\> but that's only tech news
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19:27:54 <bojidar_bg> Just read http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather -- I think this is (easy, really easily) "doable" in JavaScript via Object.create and prototypes. Basically, in JS each Object has a prototype, and if it lacks a property, it would lookup the prototype. (Or am I missing something?)
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19:59:04 <zemhill__> david_werecat.neutrino: points 5.79, score 37.75, rank 2/47 (--)
20:00:52 <quintopia> beating kiseki is now the easiest way to get to the top of the chart
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20:10:07 <david_werecat> thanks, although I'm not sure how much of that score is because of kiseki...
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20:12:23 <quintopia> and if lymia is feeling flippant, they can just rerun the program with neutrino included and get back the same score they had to begin with
20:15:13 <david_werecat> Before kiseki it had been a while since a program beat every other program. The last time I remember that happening was a couple of years ago.
20:16:17 <quintopia> space_hotel did once, but not on every tape length and polarity
20:16:33 <quintopia> anyway, i think you have now qualified as the new deewiant.
20:16:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49631&oldid=49163 * Mychal * (+413) Added Io implementation
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20:34:30 <zemhill__> david_werecat.beatskiseki: points -19.69, score 10.75, rank 28/47
20:35:46 <zemhill__> david_werecat.beatskiseki: points -17.19, score 16.50, rank 13/47
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21:21:52 <david_werecat> !ztest neutrino >(+)*15(>--)*3(>[>>>((>[-[++[(+)*6[-][+]+>+{}]]]+)%-1)*-1])*16(>[(-)*14[+][-]])*8>(-)*127([[-][+]])*-1
21:21:52 <zemhill__> david_werecat.neutrino: points 2.43, score 30.72, rank 2/47 (--)
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21:48:51 <fizzie> Lymia: Yeah, I have a feeling BF Joust activity is too sporadic for the monthly code-secret-until-over competition idea to work super well.
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21:52:21 <wob_jonas> "IIRC many IRC servers have been modified to close the connection if they see anything that looks like it's part of the wrong protocol" => yes, but more importantly, many irc servers (but not the one on freenode) require you to pong a ping whose body has a random string before you can do anything, to stop blind attacks that don't read what the serv
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23:22:41 * boily pokes \oren\ in the Torontonian bits
23:24:54 <quintopia> why did rush name a song after an aeroport?
23:25:03 <boily> quintopia! because YYZ!
23:25:19 <boily> . o O ( why yyz, au fait? )
23:27:05 <boily> thinking about eating.
23:27:12 <boily> . o O ( I should be eating. )
23:30:04 <boily> I like seeing what's happening :)
23:31:01 <quintopia> david_werecat uploaded some new entries. thats all.
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23:32:02 <boily> the happening doesn't happen much, eh?
23:32:08 <lambdabot> KATL 242152Z 14003KT 10SM FEW008 SCT110 BKN200 BKN250 26/23 A3022 RMK AO2 SLP223 T02560228 $
23:32:11 <lambdabot> CYUL 242200Z 22009G21KT 30SM FEW180 SCT240 28/18 A3003 RMK AC1CI3 SLP171 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
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23:33:56 <int-e> (I keep thinking that)
23:33:59 <lambdabot> LOWI 242220Z AUTO 24003KT 210V270 9999 NCD 17/14 Q1024
23:35:58 <boily> int-ello. call of cyul?
23:36:56 <quintopia> CYUL is always swimming but it always swims Left
23:37:54 <lambdabot> CYYB 242200Z 17006KT 15SM -SHRA SCT044 OVC060 21/17 A2995 RMK SC3SC5 CVCTV CLD EMBD SLP142 DENSITY ALT 2200FT
23:38:21 <\oren\> Why is there never much temperature difference between here and north bay
23:38:44 <\oren\> north bay is like 7 hours driving north from here
23:38:57 <lambdabot> CYYZ 242200Z 20012G18KT 15SM FEW130 SCT150 BKN220 29/14 A3001 RMK AC1AC2CI3 SLP163 DENSITY ALT 2100FT
23:39:30 <\oren\> oh great today it's actually colder in Toronto. I don't understand waether
23:40:28 <boily> the whole of Ontario can be reduced to a single point hth
23:43:20 <\oren\> or should that be weDR
23:45:36 <oerjan> \oren\: how do you spell "core"
23:46:24 <lambdabot> KOAK 242153Z 29012KT 10SM FEW010 20/13 A3004 RMK AO2 SLP173 T02000128
23:46:33 <lambdabot> ENVA 242220Z 13006KT 9999 VCSH SCT045 BKN065 12/12 Q1017 RMK WIND 670FT 17007KT
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23:48:40 <\oren\> theoretically, one could mark letters with thingies on top of them but I don't knwo how to type those thingies
23:48:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:48:59 <\oren\> so my proposal uses capital letters, klingon-style
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23:50:58 <hppavilion[1]> From now on, there is no such thing as "the square root" of a number (or really any nth root)
23:51:11 <hppavilion[1]> There are only numbers which are "a square root" of it
23:51:59 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> `` grep wegian -r wisdom > temp/wegians <-- we have | paste for this hth
23:52:09 <hppavilion[1]> If you just want the principle root, you have to specify that, but you also have to define what differentiates between a principle and nonprinciple root
23:52:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: "the square root" is positive by definition hth
23:54:21 <oerjan> it's the principal of the thing.
23:55:01 <hppavilion[1]> (In my Algebra II class last year, when finding the zeros of a quadratic we used any root, but she also said that the equation y = sqrt(x) is a function because only the positive part of the results are true; though, to be fair, we did at least use ± on the former)
23:56:20 <quintopia> traditionally the principal root is the one with smallest argument
23:57:18 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, is that mathspeak or just "the one that the least people complain about"?
23:57:52 <oerjan> it's the angle of a complex number, in radians
23:58:31 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Maybe we should require that new users make themselves a userpage, and that an administrator read it and think "yeah, looks pretty legit" before approving them
23:58:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that doesn't work because there's been a lot of spammers that _do_ make their own userpages
23:59:05 <hppavilion[1]> (auto-approval happens after a week or so, admins can disapprove before then)
23:59:29 <oerjan> presumably because other wikis have such a policy, or something.
23:59:39 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: They'll probably look pretty formulaic and 2^n-assed (for natural n >=2)