00:06:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainscrambler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47195&oldid=20934 * 78.67.213.26 * (+68)
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00:59:26 <shachaf> `? complete heyting algebra
00:59:45 <HackEgo> complete heyting algebra? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:00:07 <HackEgo> Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8.
01:00:14 <HackEgo> A frame is just a complete Heyting algebra. However, frame homomorphisms don't preserve implication, if you know what I mean.
01:00:18 <HackEgo> Pointless topology is the kind of topology Taneb invents.
01:00:30 <HackEgo> heyting algebra? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:00:41 <shachaf> `sled wisdom/locale//s/However, f/F/
01:00:43 <HackEgo> wisdom/locale//Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8.
01:00:56 <tswett> I wonder what the idiom in Java is for when a method you're calling throws a checked exception and you don't want to handle it.
01:00:59 <shachaf> `sled wisdom/frame//s/However, f/F/
01:01:03 <HackEgo> wisdom/frame//A frame is just a complete Heyting algebra. Frame homomorphisms don't preserve implication, if you know what I mean.
01:01:29 <shachaf> the idiom is try { ... } catch (StrangeException e) {} hth
01:01:52 <HackEgo> Sober spaces are the dual of Stoned spaces. Taneb invented them.
01:01:58 <HackEgo> Stone spaces were invented by P. T. Barnum as a hoax.
01:03:20 <HackEgo> Help is on the way. We don't know where the way is, though. You might try `help instead.
01:03:58 <tswett> I was hoping that that wouldn't exist, because then I could have done: `le/rn help/The wisdom entry for "help" isn't very helpful.
01:04:14 <shachaf> But that's kind of a tired joke, isn't it?
01:04:27 <shachaf> I mean, pretty much the whole joke is that it's self-referential.
01:04:40 <shachaf> But we're used to self-reference in here. We don't need hundreds of jokes about it.
01:06:37 <shachaf> `le/rn complete heyting algebra/A complete Heyting algebra is just a cartesian closed complete lattice.
01:06:39 <HackEgo> Learned «complete heyting algebra»
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01:34:20 <hppavilion[1]> If non-US people call common football "soccer" when calling it "football" would make things abiguous
01:34:42 <hppavilion[1]> We'll call our American football "handegg" in similarly ambiguous situations
01:35:45 <moon_> i found something called powdertoy (http://powdertoy.co.uk/) it has had computers made in it, so ima make a brainfuck interpreter
01:37:23 <tswett> There are computers written in the Powder Toy?
01:37:42 <moon_> functional ones, fastest one i have seen is 1hz
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01:38:17 <moon_> The synergy computer being the best example (29-bit!)
01:39:15 <moon_> The synergy computer also comes with a instruction set
01:40:52 <moon_> actually, make the fastest one i have seen 1.5hz
01:42:31 <moon_> in 255 instructions?
01:42:37 <moon_> or in a custom computer
01:43:21 <moon_> here, leme pull up the synergy instruction set and info, you might find it intresting ,and brainfuck is doable+1 :P
01:43:34 <moon_> http://powdertoy.co.uk/Discussions/Thread/View.html?Thread=19974
01:44:04 <moon_> the synergy computer has most of its space taken up by a screen, by the way
01:46:07 <moon_> '' 001111: blows the computer up '' i wonder what happens if i print that twice
01:46:21 <moon_> output will be a little funky
01:47:09 <moon_> i dont see any TNT, NITR, or any other explosive
01:47:16 <moon_> there _might_ be a twice
01:49:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i have no idea how the bit representation in this works
01:49:53 <moon_> learn TPT's physics
01:50:14 <moon_> you have 100 or so elements to work with (=
01:52:32 <moon_> then why is there read/write FILT ram? filt is changed by temp
01:53:28 <moon_> filt has 5-10 modes tho
01:54:03 <tswett> I always like to create a box filled with water, and put a heat source at the bottom and a cold source at the top.
01:54:09 <hppavilion[1]> Do people in countries outside the US refer to black people as "African American"?
01:54:42 <moon_> tsweet, convection, as far as i know, is not modeled
01:54:46 <moon_> unless your making rain
01:54:50 <hppavilion[1]> Primarily European countries, where referring to most people as "American" would usually get you funny looks
01:55:09 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: I highly doubt it.
01:55:54 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: But I was watching a YouTube video today and they mentioned a guy (who I assume was british) correcting someone who called him "African American" on the grounds that he was neither african nor american
01:56:28 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, people tend to think you're an idiot if you do so
01:57:11 <Phantom_Hoover> moon_, the self-destruct works by cloning in some explosive btw
01:57:45 <tswett> Looks like Powder Toy still has that thing where turning water into steam requires no heat.
01:58:07 <moon_> water becomes steam at 100C as far as i know
01:58:16 <moon_> and as much as logic tells me, that should be true
01:58:32 <tswett> Well, yeah, I mean that thing where heating water from 99C to 101C is as easy as heating it from 97C to 99C.
01:58:39 <moon_> tswett: you have a tpt account?
01:59:12 <pikhq> Also, using "African American" instead of "black" is not a great way of being more "correct" -- essentially nobody has a preference for one over the other.
02:01:33 <\oren\> Well seeing as most black people I know aren't American...
02:01:42 <moon_> i found the explosives Phantom_Hoover , its FIRW
02:01:43 <tswett> I wonder all of a sudden.
02:01:53 <pikhq> \oren\: I was speaking purely in an American racial context, mind.
02:02:13 <tswett> How easy would it be to power a power plant using boiling hot water?
02:02:21 <pikhq> ... Obviously if you use "African American" to describe someone who is in no way connected to America, you're being pretty dumb.
02:02:58 <\oren\> In Canada afaict the correct term is always "Black". People aren't offended by "african canadian" but they'll look at you like you're an idiot
02:03:01 <tswett> I should mention, I'm talking about real life.
02:03:32 <tswett> Nah, my question was ambiguous.
02:03:37 <tswett> Boiling hot water is, of course, not very useful for powering a steam turbine.
02:03:44 <pikhq> "Black" is slightly preferred over "African American" in informal contexts, and vice versa in formal contexts, but both are considered generally correct and acceptable in the US.
02:04:24 <pikhq> But a few people hypercorrect and use "African American" always, even when incorrect, and come across as idiots.
02:04:41 <moon_> Phantom_Hoover: i just convinced it to erase its keyboard
02:04:51 <moon_> totally not idiot proof
02:04:54 <pikhq> (tip: Barack Obama is African American. Mandela is not African American.)
02:05:18 <moon_> it is currently strobing due to idiot edition usage
02:05:45 <tswett> So given a bunch of boiling-hot water, and an endless supply of room-temperature air, how do you heat some of the water so that it boils?
02:07:01 <moon_> just pull the pump's turn on switch
02:07:15 <\oren\> well I suppose some of the water would then technically no longer qualify as "water" due to nuclear transmutation but still
02:07:20 <pikhq> tswett: Heat pump?
02:07:55 <pikhq> Though really you can probably do things a lot simpler than that.
02:08:03 <pikhq> You *have* a nice heat gradiant there.
02:09:51 <pikhq> You could, for instance, just run a Stirling engine with one cylinder in the water and one cylinder in the air.
02:10:31 <pikhq> And not even need steam for it to work.
02:10:51 <lambdabot> RJTT 130100Z 02022KT 3800 SHRA BR FEW004 BKN006 BKN008 20/20 Q0998 TEMPO 3000 SHRA BR FEW003 BKN005 RMK 1ST004 5ST006 6ST008 A2948
02:11:22 <moon_> "Here's an interesting fact: you're not breathing real air. It's too expensive to pump this far down. We just take carbon dioxide out of a room, freshen it up a little, and pump it back in. So you'll be breathing the same room full of air for the rest of your life. I thought that was interesting."
02:11:36 <moon_> my answer from a while back
02:12:56 <FreeFull> But that's what astronauts do so it can't be so bad
02:13:50 <\oren\> spaceships tend to stink though
02:14:54 <pikhq> tswett: And of course if efficiency doesn't matter a thermoelectric generator will do you nicely.
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02:19:07 <zzo38> Do you know the answer of such question?
02:20:48 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yes: It's a stupid question because you can't own a language
02:21:03 <hppavilion[1]> Well, unless it was invented recently, and even then it's stupid to try to control it
02:21:12 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Tell that to Paramount.
02:22:01 <pikhq> Sue a fan film for using Klingon.
02:22:48 <pikhq> Friendly advise for anyone with a bit of media with a very highly invested fan base: don't sue them. They *are* your audience.
02:23:17 <zzo38> I agree they should not force to control/own it
02:23:35 <hppavilion[1]> I believe languages should be legally exempt from copyright
02:23:40 <shachaf> tell them not to cling on to the past
02:23:52 <pikhq> One of the amicus briefs is partly in Klingon.
02:24:01 <pikhq> shachaf: There's a new series coming which might not suck.
02:24:15 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Or was it an un-pun? A place where you made it so you could put a pun, but then didn't?
02:26:16 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... You can't own a word (you can prevent people from using it to advertise themselves by trademark, but you can't prevent people from ever saying it)
02:30:40 <moon_> i found a wierd language: https://esolangs.org/wiki/SPAM/1
02:38:53 <tswett> The behavior of pressure in TPT seems really weird.
02:39:48 <moon_> try making a container of superheated WARP, and then opening it after a little
02:40:02 <moon_> in view 2 (Acessed by hitting the 2 key)
02:40:05 <tswett> I've got a bunch of water that's stuck up in the air thanks to prsesure.
02:40:21 <moon_> pressure does funny things
02:44:00 <tswett> I wonder what it's supposed to represent.
02:44:09 <moon_> Pressure, obviously
02:44:09 <tswett> TPT lets you have a pressure gradient in an unmoving fluid, which can't happen in real life.
02:44:21 <tswett> So clearly it's not the pressure of that fluid.
02:44:31 <tswett> And besides that, areas that are "empty" still have pressure.
02:46:26 <tswett> I can't tell whether it passes through solids or not.
02:46:47 <tswett> You can have a chunk of ice with a pressure of -11 in the middle, and it just stays at -11, which makes it seem like pressure can't pass through solids.
02:47:06 <moon_> TPT pressure is reallllly strange
02:47:20 <moon_> it DOES pass through any solids (besides TTAN and WALL)
02:47:44 <tswett> So why does ice maintain pressure like that?
02:48:12 <moon_> but pressure goes straight through GOLD and other solids
02:48:48 <moon_> ill consult the almighty wiki
02:49:14 <moon_> ICE does not hold pressure
02:50:53 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder how long it is until Microsoft puts ads in the title screen of Minecraft
02:51:32 <moon_> lets all hope they dont
02:51:45 <moon_> it would PREVIOUSLY be a good game then
02:51:53 <moon_> minecraft is in java
02:52:04 <moon_> ads in MC title screen = Anti-ad md
02:53:33 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: They'd add "Don't remove our ads with a mod" to the ToS
02:54:15 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: Because, of course, just because you've legally purchased the software, they can still tell you what you can and cannot do with it even for your own personal use
02:57:00 <tswett> Oh, look at this. Even empty space can have a pressure gradient.
02:57:34 <tswett> It's like somehow the ice is sucking up huge amounts of air.
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02:59:38 <tswett> Yeah, there's definitely a whole lot of negative pressure being generated here.
03:06:01 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... I wonder if a FOSS community could pull off a Minecraft-like game that doesn't turn out terrible and doesn't feel like it's become a cash cow rather than a fun project for the devs
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03:16:47 <deltab> I think Truecraft aims to be that
04:43:43 <Cale> Plan to be moddable and modular from the outset
04:45:33 <shachaf> i,i cash-oblivious software
04:49:33 <tswett> What's this channel's first occurrence of "i,i"?
04:49:52 <shachaf> This channel doesn't exist.
04:50:06 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that doesn't exist. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
04:50:56 <tswett> Proposal: it's about 100 m (30 ft) across. Hth.
04:51:33 <shachaf> Cale: Can you think of any good pointless topology puns for my recent wisdom entries?
04:51:44 <tswett> How accurate is the wisdom entry for i,i?
04:52:36 <shachaf> The important question is how inaccurate it is.
04:52:53 <HackEgo> A frame is just a complete Heyting algebra. Frame homomorphisms don't preserve implication, if you know what I mean.
04:52:56 <HackEgo> Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8.
04:53:06 <HackEgo> Pointless topology is the kind of topology Taneb invents.
04:53:10 <HackEgo> Sober spaces are the dual of Stoned spaces. Taneb invented them.
04:53:14 <HackEgo> Stone spaces were invented by P. T. Barnum as a hoax.
05:03:47 <Cale> > iterate (>>= (\c -> case c of 'i' -> "i,i"; ',' -> " is "; 's' -> "ksk"; x -> [x])) "i"
05:03:49 <lambdabot> ["i","i,i","i,i is i,i","i,i is i,i i,iksk i,i is i,i","i,i is i,i i,iksk i,...
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05:26:28 <tswett> That reminds me of that infinite self-spelling sequence...
05:27:23 <tswett> cee, e, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, cee, o, em, em, a, comma, space, es, pee, a, cee, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, cee, ...
05:53:21 <izabera> is there a better way to generate that sequence without appending to a string?
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06:05:19 <zzo38> I don't know. I think I have seen stuff like that before (and have made up stuff like that before too), but not quite that one.
06:08:29 <zzo38> If I make a puzzle game of the kind that satisfies the following: rules :: Command -> Puzzle -> Either Bool Puzzle; isSolution :: [Command] -> Puzzle -> Bool; isSolution [] _ = False; isSolution (h:t) x = either id (isSolution t) $ rules h x; and the current state of the puzzle is always fully visible to the player. What is this kind of rules called?
06:09:25 <zzo38> (I do not mean to imply that it is necessarily programmed in Haskell, but the notation of Haskell seems useful to describe what I am trying to describe here.)
06:30:35 <Cale> > let describeChar c = maybe "" id . lookup c $ [('c',"cee"),('e',"e"),(',',"comma"),(' ',"space"),('o',"o"),('m',"em"),('a',"a"),('s',"es"),('p',"pee")]; describeString s = intercalate ", " (map describeChar s) in fix (\xs -> ' ' : describeString xs) -- not quite, but almost
06:30:37 <lambdabot> " space, es, pee, a, cee, e, comma, space, e, es, comma, space, pee, e, e, c...
06:32:41 <Cale> > let describeChar c = maybe "" id . lookup c $ [('c',"cee"),('e',"e"),(',',"comma"),(' ',"space"),('o',"o"),('m',"em"),('a',"a"),('s',"es"),('p',"pee")]; describeString s = intercalate ", " (map describeChar s) in fix (\xs -> describeString ('c' : xs)) -- also not quite
06:32:43 <lambdabot> "cee, cee, e, e, comma, space, cee, e, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, e, ...
06:36:13 <Cale> > let describeChar c = maybe "" id . lookup c $ [('c',"cee"),('e',"e"),(',',"comma"),(' ',"space"),('o',"o"),('m',"em"),('a',"a"),('s',"es"),('p',"pee")]; describeString s = intercalate ", " (map describeChar s) in map head . transpose . iterate describeString $ "c"
06:36:15 <lambdabot> "cee, e, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, cee, o, em, em, ...
06:36:35 <Cale> there we go :)
06:37:48 <Cale> izabera: ^^ got it
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06:43:03 <hppavilion[1]> "A prison escape or prison break is the act of an inmate leaving prison through unofficial or illegal ways."
06:52:38 <izabera> Cale: do you mind writing it in a normal language?
06:59:08 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Because the people in charge in Singapore are sexist assholes?
06:59:55 <izabera> do you want to permit caning on girls too?
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07:09:06 <hppavilion[1]> I just started https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk2SuWwwdMk and now I'm immediately planning to move to Russia
07:09:41 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, or any other Nordic country (Norway, Finland, Sweden)
07:18:17 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, the quality of software used tends to go down as the GDP of a nation goes up
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07:35:06 <zzo38> Apparently the reason why the character ROM on CGA has two unused address bits is because the same ROM contains the MDPA patterns, so that both cards can use the same ROM.
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07:45:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Was it a mask ROM?
07:45:22 <pikhq> Because that makes me suspect that.
07:56:50 <Cale> izabera: What's a normal language? This relies on lazy evaluation...
07:57:09 <oerjan> `learn Implication is a useful rhetorical device, if you know what I mean.
07:57:09 <izabera> normal as in readable by humans <.<
07:57:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'implication': Implication is a useful rhetorical device, if you know what I mean.
07:57:12 <Cale> I program in Haskell for a living...
07:57:42 <Cale> I can explain the Haskell if you want
07:58:07 <Cale> @let describeChar c = maybe "" id . lookup c $ [('c',"cee"),('e',"e"),(',',"comma"),(' ',"space"),('o',"o"),('m',"em"),('a',"a"),('s',"es"),('p',"pee")]
07:58:44 <Cale> So this function just does what it looks like, giving a string that describes the given character, or the empty string if it's not found in the list (though that never happens)
07:58:53 <Cale> > describeChar ','
07:59:13 <Cale> @let describeString s = intercalate ", " (map describeChar s)
07:59:39 <Cale> This describes a string by applying that function to each character in it, and then sticking ", " in between each of the things it got, concatenating the results
07:59:49 <Cale> > describeString "cee"
08:00:19 <izabera> so this is actually creating the same infinite string
08:00:32 <izabera> and it's using the same amount of space
08:00:40 <Cale> > iterate describeString $ "c"
08:00:41 <lambdabot> ["c","cee","cee, e, e","cee, e, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, e","cee, e...
08:01:21 <Cale> iterate f x = [x, f x, f (f x), ...]
08:01:33 <Cale> it just applies the function over and over, giving an infinite list of the results
08:02:22 <izabera> yeah but i was hoping for a solution that didn't require infinite memory
08:02:23 <Cale> Now we do something quirky and transpose this list of lists, which is actually going to get us a list of infinite strings
08:02:41 <Cale> > transpose . iterate describeString $ "c"
08:02:42 <lambdabot> ["cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc...
08:03:01 <Cale> The first element of every one of the strings is after all c...
08:03:08 <Cale> > take 5 . transpose . iterate describeString $ "c"
08:03:09 <lambdabot> ["cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc...
08:03:14 <hppavilion[1]> OK, how the hell does OEIS choose sequence numbers?
08:03:16 <Cale> > map (take 5) . transpose . iterate describeString $ "c"
08:03:17 <lambdabot> ["ccccc","eeeee","eeeee",",,,,,"," ","eeeee",",,,,,"," ","eeeee",",,...
08:03:25 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: user submitted
08:03:40 <Cale> But of course, these infinite strings are lazily constructed, and we're really only interested in the first element of each
08:03:49 <Cale> > map head . transpose . iterate describeString $ "c"
08:03:51 <lambdabot> "cee, e, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, cee, o, em, em, ...
08:04:07 <izabera> Cale: but you still need unbounded memory x.x
08:04:15 <lambdabot> (!!3)<$>transpose[show$foldr(\k a->2*10^2^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..2^n]|n<-[0..]]
08:04:43 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: first come first served
08:04:57 <zzo38> pikhq: I don't know if it is mask ROM or what it is
08:05:25 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Then the first person to add one (A000001) was rather focused on Group Theory
08:05:52 <hppavilion[1]> Like, I'd think A000001 would be, I dunno, the empty sequence, or the natural numbers, or something like that
08:05:52 <oerjan> > fix (('c':).drop 1.describeString)
08:05:54 <lambdabot> "cee, e, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, cee, o, em, em, ...
08:06:19 * oerjan vaguely assumes that's what Cale started with
08:06:37 <Cale> > map head . transpose . iterate describeString $ "c"
08:06:38 <lambdabot> "cee, e, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, cee, o, em, em, ...
08:07:02 <shachaf> oerjan: now golf pi_10 twh
08:07:15 <Cale> oerjan: ah, haha
08:07:21 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
08:07:28 <Cale> oerjan: That's the easy one I was looking for initially
08:08:20 <Cale> (but couldn't quite find it -- in hindsight, that's obviously where the drop 1 needs to go :)
08:09:15 <hppavilion[1]> "that helps in some scenarios but not in others and I am as of yet unsure which scenario we are in"
08:11:05 <hppavilion[1]> How do you generate one of those self-counting sentences I wonder?
08:11:07 <Cale> izabera: There is probably a way to compute the nth element in O(log n) space...
08:11:07 <HackEgo> This sentence was not invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
08:11:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: constraint programming?
08:11:52 <hppavilion[1]> Like, you could make an algorithm that will generate some such sentences, but not one that will generate al
08:12:24 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well you can do some math to find bounds on what the counts can be.
08:13:11 <oerjan> and then you can do constraint programming to prune it all down.
08:13:12 <hppavilion[1]> It means "x is incapable of performing action a", but it feels like it should be read "x is capable of not performing action a"
08:13:30 <oerjan> or one of those SMT solvers which i've never used.
08:13:43 <oerjan> (which i guess is a form of constraint programming)
08:14:44 <oerjan> basically, those solvers can solve essentially all NP problems that aren't _designed_ to hit the hard cases.
08:15:44 <oerjan> not sure if they can list all solutions (assuming there's a reasonable number, which i assume is the case with those self-counting things)
08:18:12 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Then the first person to add one (A000001) was rather focused on Group Theory <-- perhaps it was just that sequence that gave em the idea that there needed to be such a site
08:19:00 <shachaf> speaking of groups what's with S_6?
08:19:57 <oerjan> <Cale> izabera: There is probably a way to compute the nth element in O(log n) space... <-- i think your iterated version might count, with enough garbage collection.
08:20:31 <Cale> Yeah, I don't think it does...
08:22:11 <oerjan> well, the idea is that you'd really want to generate copies of the sequence in "parallel"
08:22:17 <oerjan> without sharing between them.
08:22:34 <oerjan> so not _exactly_ that version, but something similar.
08:25:14 <oerjan> > let fix' f = f (fix' f) in fix' (('c':).drop 1.describeString)
08:25:16 <lambdabot> "cee, e, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, e, comma, space, cee, o, em, em, ...
08:25:43 <oerjan> like that, assuming that fix' avoids sharing
08:26:30 <oerjan> i guess that was my version.
08:28:03 <oerjan> or you can do it with a stack.
08:29:22 <oerjan> or wait, you need the depth.
08:33:01 <Cale> The problem is that the part of the string that you're describing and the part of the string you're constructing get arbitrarily far apart over time
08:34:13 <shachaf> why is S_6 the only symmetric group that has a non-inner automorphism
08:34:28 <Cale> shachaf: Because shenanigans
08:35:13 <oerjan> Cale: yes, but as long as they're not shared with each other, you only need to keep around a bounded part of each.
08:35:20 <oerjan> and GC should do that.
08:39:57 <oerjan> now if you want it to be logarithmic _time_ as well... then you need some matrix/vector thinking.
08:39:58 <Cale> shachaf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automorphisms_of_the_symmetric_and_alternating_groups#No_other_outer_automorphisms has a quick explanation
08:42:37 <shachaf> Why are groups so complicated?
08:42:41 <Cale> shachaf: Basically it comes down to the coincidence that the number of transpositions, i.e. the conjugacy class containing (1,2) in S_6, happens to have the same size as the conjugacy class containing (1,2)(3,4)(5,6)
08:42:57 <Cale> 15 elements each
08:44:15 <Cale> Why are prime decompositions so complicated? It's that problem, only worse.
08:44:32 <oerjan> <shachaf> i fell into the oerjan trap <-- . o O ( sometimes he sets traps without knowing )
08:44:44 <hppavilion[1]> (it's somewhere between a monomorphism and a bimorphism)
08:45:09 <shachaf> oerjan: Obviously an "oerjan trap" is designed to trap oerjans.
08:45:48 <lifthrasiir> I'm working on expanding https://oeis.org/A121064
08:46:05 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, histograms, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
08:46:17 <shachaf> You can't put everything Taneb invents into tanebventions.
08:46:52 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Perhaps we should divide it into sections?
08:47:05 <HackEgo> tanebventions[2]? ¯\(°_o)/¯
08:50:03 <HackEgo> cp: missing file operand \ Try `cp --help' for more information.
08:50:21 <hppavilion[1]> `` cp wisdom/tanebventions wisdom/tanebventions(0)
08:50:23 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: `cp wisdom/tanebventions wisdom/tanebventions(0)'
08:50:34 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: 0: command not found \ cp: cannot stat `wisdom/tanebventions': No such file or directory
08:50:55 <oerjan> i suggest if we split it, we split out the math ones.
08:52:04 * oerjan was just thinking adding (math)
08:52:35 <shachaf> At the rate it's growing, we'll have to split it tanebventually.
08:53:11 <hppavilion[1]> By the way, what's the International Shachaf Prototype?
08:53:22 <hppavilion[1]> (As analogous to the International Kilogram Prototype)
08:54:28 <oerjan> `le/rn tanebventions (math)/Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, and histograms.
08:54:34 <HackEgo> Learned «tanebventions (math)»
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08:54:49 <Cale> shachaf: So the number of transpositions in S_n is (n;2) = n(n-1)/2. For S_7, for example, we have 21 transpositions, and then the sizes of conjugacy classes of elements of order 2 which could potentially be swapped with those by an automorphism if they had the same size are (7;2)(5;2)/2! = 105, and (7;2)(5;2)(3;2)/3! = 105 again.
08:55:36 <Cale> and this seems to get only worse as we go on to higher n -- probably there is an argument you could make to bound it
08:55:54 <oerjan> `le/rn tanebvention/Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions (math). He never invents anything involving sex.
08:56:08 <Cale> Of course, the smaller n, there are only a few to go through.
08:58:23 <hppavilion[1]> But really, what is the standard pun that is exactly equal to 1 shachaf?
08:58:57 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> By the way, what's the International Shachaf Prototype? <-- ask boily, he keeps doing the measurements...
08:59:40 <hppavilion[1]> @ask boily What is the International Shachaf Prototype?
08:59:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i don't see why Go is math.
09:00:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: maybe there is no prototype, they've worked hard at replacing them.
09:00:25 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented it.
09:01:03 <hppavilion[1]> Where the center of the entire shape and the center of the band coincide
09:01:55 <shachaf> as the tori say: "we were spheres once, and then they torus a new one"
09:01:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the Go entry is a mixture of several things, none of which are _specifically_ math.
09:01:56 <hppavilion[1]> There's also a horn torus where the distance between the center of the band and the center of the entire shape is equal to the radius of the band and a spindle torus where the radius is less than the disstance
09:02:35 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think shachaf may have shown us the prototype tdnh
09:03:23 <hppavilion[1]> But if a sphere is a torus, then you can't really say that a cube isn't topologically equivalent to a torus
09:03:33 <hppavilion[1]> And if you can't do that, then pretty much everything is the same as everything else
09:03:44 <oerjan> a sphere isn't homeomorphic to a torus, it's at best a degenerate one.
09:03:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no it's not.
09:04:02 <shachaf> "homeomorphic" is a scow word.
09:04:26 <HackEgo> guantanamo bay? ¯\(°_o)/¯
09:04:55 <hppavilion[1]> I'd put something there, but I'm bad at obfuscating C code
09:05:42 <oerjan> we really don't have it?
09:05:56 <oerjan> `` rgrep -i ioc wisdom
09:06:29 <oerjan> `` rgrep -i ioc wisdom; echo Hi
09:07:10 <oerjan> `` rgrep -i ioc wisdom; echo Hi
09:07:12 <HackEgo> wisdom/iocccclist:iocccccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.iocccc.org/#news \ Hi
09:08:02 <HackEgo> Rust is C++ as designed by the makers of Haskell.
09:08:08 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
09:08:19 <HackEgo> Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
09:08:27 <HackEgo> java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures
09:08:34 <HackEgo> HTML is short for "hope this mess loads".
09:10:31 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, maybe there should be `?* to glob your argument
09:12:54 <oerjan> `learn The IOCCC is the Industrial Ordovician COBOL Conference Circuit. Not to be confused with OIC. See also ioccclist.
09:12:59 <HackEgo> Learned 'ioccc': The IOCCC is the Industrial Ordovician COBOL Conference Circuit. Not to be confused with OIC. See also ioccclist.
09:13:30 <HackEgo> Heck is where you end up if you don't believe in Gosh.
09:14:04 <oerjan> `learn OIC, OIC means Oh I see.
09:14:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'oic': OIC, OIC means Oh I see.
09:15:33 <oerjan> `sled wisdom/java//s/./J/;s/$/./
09:15:40 <HackEgo> wisdom/java//Java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures.
09:15:53 <shachaf> Should it be "programming-language-shaped"?
09:16:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: `wisdom supports globs hth
09:17:06 <HackEgo> flagpole//A flagpole is like a tadpole, but with a flag on top.
09:17:13 <oerjan> although i don't think it's in the name.
09:17:25 <shachaf> There should be a version of `wisdom that searches wisdom text.
09:17:42 <shachaf> `` ls -s wisdom | sort -rn
09:17:48 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
09:18:11 <oerjan> shachaf: If so, it needs to be safe against timing out.
09:18:20 <HackEgo> אrjan is oerjan's first uncountable twin. He's inconsistent with the ZFC axioms.
09:25:32 <oerjan> `learn Isms are philosophies, religions or ideologies that have branched off from older ones, such as Leninism or Buddhism. Etymologically from portmanteaus on "schism".
09:25:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'ism': Isms are philosophies, religions or ideologies that have branched off from older ones, such as Leninism or Buddhism. Etymologically from portmanteaus on "schism".
09:26:25 <oerjan> `learn Isms are philosophies, religions or ideologies that have branched off from older ones, such as Leninism or Buddhism. Etymologically "ism" is a backformation from portmanteaus on "schism".
09:26:33 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ism': Isms are philosophies, religions or ideologies that have branched off from older ones, such as Leninism or Buddhism. Etymologically "ism" is a backformation from portmanteaus on "schism".
09:26:53 <oerjan> `learn Isms are philosophies, religions or ideologies that have branched off from older ones, such as Leninism or Buddhism. Etymologically "ism" is a backformation from portmanteaus on "schism".
09:26:57 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ism': Isms are philosophies, religions or ideologies that have branched off from older ones, such as Leninism or Buddhism. Etymologically "ism" is a backformation from portmanteaus on "schism".
09:31:23 <Cale> Like faceism (sometimes spelled "fascism") and brace-faceism
09:31:41 <oerjan> i'm not familiar with the latter.
09:34:27 <hppavilion[1]> Non-regular dice where, on average, some beat others
09:35:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: shall i find something to mop up your exploded brain?
09:36:03 <hppavilion[1]> Because their mind is not the ONLY thing in the entire world that is currently blown
09:37:06 <HackEgo> [U+2286 SUBSET OF OR EQUAL TO]
09:38:09 <hppavilion[1]> And if you double the number of dice for each option and add them
09:38:38 <hppavilion[1]> Then if die color C beats die color D on average, die color D now beats die color C on average
09:43:01 <myname> there are 5 non-transitive dice that beat each other clockwise if chosen one and counterclockwise if chosen two of each
09:43:25 <myname> (each other = the next two)
09:46:09 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ...yeah. That's exactly what I was talking about
09:46:25 <hppavilion[1]> myname: The ones invented by James Grime (apparently)
09:48:16 <oerjan> bitcoin still climbing...
09:48:28 * oerjan doesn't actually have any, just likes to check now and then
09:49:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I won't be using Bitcoin until it starts to support complex and ordinal numbers
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09:55:50 <myname> also, shouldn't it be like mind \in blown?
09:59:40 <myname> because clearly, mind is not a set
10:06:31 <Koen_> experts in the field have been struggling for decades, if not centuries, trying to understand what the mind is
10:06:44 <Koen_> and you dare use the word "clearly" speaking about it?!
10:07:24 <Koen_> even hofstadter did not write down the sentence "clearly there are strange loops in the mind"
10:09:22 <myname> well, i can say the mind clearly is not a potato
10:09:28 <myname> nothing wrong with that
10:10:25 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...was that a pun? <-- yes.
10:11:54 <shachaf> I should've said "star wars", though.
10:13:31 <oerjan> what do you jabba bout
10:16:54 <oerjan> <shachaf> i,i cash-oblivious software <-- squee
10:25:01 <Koen_> "i,i-word" looks like an organic molecule name
10:28:07 <b_jonas> `bardsworthlist 2016-06-13
10:28:12 <HackEgo> bardsworthlist 2016-06-13: b_jonas
10:35:15 <hppavilion[1]> myname: And I would argue that the mind is definitely a set
10:35:46 <hppavilion[1]> It's at least a better approximation to call the mind a set than a single object. I guess.
10:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> Well, I guess you could treat the mind as an isolated set so it is a set within the set of blown things
10:37:02 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But it makes more sense to treat minds as a set of things that are in the toplevel of blown; it might make more sense to make it a single object for a /human/ mind, but I'm fairly certain you could have two minds that share certain parts but separate others
10:37:29 <myname> hppavilion[1]: what are the elements of a mind?
10:43:25 <hppavilion[1]> myname: A mind is just a bunch of stuff out of a grab bag
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10:54:34 <hppavilion[1]> My internet capped out so I'm on the lowest speed my ISP offers
10:54:51 <hppavilion[1]> But the video I'm watching seems like the kind of thing it'd be a sin to not watch in AT LEAST 360p
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11:07:31 <oerjan> this king in girl genius does not seem altogether sane.
11:17:24 <int-e> . o O ( that seemed unlikely ever since last wednesday )
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11:57:38 <oerjan> int-e: well he _could_ have been just confused. and possibly betrayed. but now i'm starting to think his insanity is the main reason he was put there.
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12:12:52 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] asked 3h 13m 12s ago: What is the International Shachaf Prototype?
12:13:22 <boily> hppavellon[1]. it's the canonical shachaf reference hth
12:13:36 <hppavilion[1]> boily: But what /is/ the canonical shachaf reference?
12:14:11 <hppavilion[1]> What is the pun that gives you the standard basis for measuring puns in terms of shachafs?
12:14:44 <boily> shachaf: hellochaf. what is the true pun?
12:15:11 <hppavilion[1]> boily: shachaf wouldn't tell me or didn't know. I was told to ask you.
12:15:35 * boily quests for the True Pun
12:15:56 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Though shachaf did say "as the tori say: \"we were spheres once, and then they torus a new one\"", which oerjan then hypothesized is the ISP
12:16:05 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: You didn't even ask me.
12:16:33 <shachaf> I'll request that you use some code name to refer to me, though, because getting pinged by this conversation is annoying.
12:16:45 <shachaf> That pun is certainly not canonical or even characteristic.
12:17:47 * hppavilion[1] wishes he knew what shachaf already has coded to ping him that isn't eir nick, so that he could choose that as the codeword
12:17:49 <boily> that torus one is a «trou» pun...
12:18:16 <boily> hppavilion[1]: hint: it's "chaf" hth
12:18:33 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if shagrumpy was a Boyscowt as a child...
12:19:16 <hppavilion[1]> (Or Girlscowt; you never know on IRC, and I can't remember off the top of my head if someone is male or unspecified- I can remember anything else though, weirdly)
12:19:53 <hppavilion[1]> If shagrumpy went into food preparation, would e be "shachef"?
12:20:08 <hppavilion[1]> (this is me looking for the OTP (One True Pun) btw)
12:20:55 <boily> all those puns will be held against you once I'm awake enough to mapole you as you deserve.
12:21:47 <hppavilion[1]> "Anything you say can and will be held against you" "Chocolate"
12:22:14 <hppavilion[1]> Wait... if the "anything you say..." is actually pretty stupid
12:22:25 * boily unwraps a bar of choklad mörk
12:22:27 <hppavilion[1]> What if I say "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously"?
12:23:40 <oerjan> your honor, the defendant clearly admitted to being part of a sleeper cell of environmental terrorists...
12:24:08 * boily munches munches munches ♪
12:24:29 <oerjan> . o O ( why is it choklad mörk rather than mörk choklad )
12:25:11 <boily> because that's what the packaging says. "Choklad mörk" then "Dark chocolate / Chocolat noir".
12:25:57 <oerjan> it's a little weird putting the adjective last in swedish.
12:27:01 <boily> I don't speak Swedish.
12:29:24 <hppavilion[1]> You know that episode of every science- or magic-related TV show where everbody switches brains and can only switch with each other person once?
12:30:17 <oerjan> i haven't watched that many.
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12:30:31 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Basically, shagrumpy and boily go to http://www.magicbrainswitcher.com at the same time on a troll
12:31:14 <hppavilion[1]> They find that it doesn't allow you to switch with someone you've already switched with
12:31:56 <hppavilion[1]> And usually it's resolved by a complicated mathematical process (which may or may not be explained) that gets everybody back where they started
12:32:14 <hppavilion[1]> But there's a much easier AND ethically superior solution
12:32:23 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've never seen that episode.
12:32:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Stargate: SG1, Futurama, probably some others...
12:33:00 <hppavilion[1]> Get all the main people back where they started, but have two or more outsiders who both happen to be trans
12:33:23 <oerjan> i guess this meme started spreading after i stopped watching tv
12:33:34 <hppavilion[1]> Boom. You get the same result for the main characters, AND you've made life easier for some other people. Ethisuccess!
12:35:55 <oerjan> i am not sure transes work that way.
12:36:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Eh, it's the human race; some will, at the very least
12:36:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: In any situation that most people would find undesirable, there'll always be a group of people who are all for it
12:37:13 <oerjan> also, that only helps if it actually ends up simpler.
12:38:05 <oerjan> like a rubik's cube where you don't have to solve the bottom
12:39:11 <hppavilion[1]> For most of them, the last number doesn't actually matter, but you can't remove it
12:41:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm talking about twisty ones; you can test all possible last numbers for most of them in one go
12:41:23 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdsey0irfSs is beautiful
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13:49:22 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein%27s_brain
13:53:00 <Koen_> 1955 - 1978 : 23 years before it was revealed. are we sure it's his?
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17:05:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack Up]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47196 * Qwertyu63 * (+2306) Created page with "'''Stack Up''' is a stack-based programming language. Stack Up uses two LIFO data stacks for storing and processing data. Each stack has no maximum depth beyond that which is..."
17:06:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47197&oldid=47196 * Qwertyu63 * (+19)
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17:16:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47198&oldid=47185 * Qwertyu63 * (+15)
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17:56:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47199&oldid=47197 * Qwertyu63 * (+117)
17:57:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47200&oldid=47199 * Qwertyu63 * (+0)
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18:40:29 <shachaf> fizzie: Is there a relevant change in .fi domain name handling?
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19:15:54 <moon_> translation: get input from side one -> take input and add 52, then square -> output to side two
19:18:28 <moon_> effective description of node: io: 1i 2o 3n 4n 5n 6n src: f1->(V+52)^2->o2 cmnt: the extra 1 was a personal error
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19:24:42 <moon_> Well, really thats me typing mindlessly into the wrong thing for esolang planning
19:25:09 * moon_ slaps self for typing mindlessly into the wrong thing
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23:22:35 <shachaf> That sounds like "granfalloon".
23:23:30 <moon_> no it sounds like melloon
23:24:11 <moon_> now excuse me while i remind boily i am _not_ a melon
23:25:12 <boily> https://youtu.be/4dAy9u0_9nM ♪
23:25:28 <boily> hellochaf. it sounds like "granfalloon".
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23:38:11 <HackEgo> trantor//Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it.
23:38:27 <shachaf> is your PhD in Heying algebra complete yet
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23:39:38 <boily> no, I need to recruit more undergrads.
23:40:04 <shachaf> b_jonas: what's that wisdom entry for
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