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00:31:36 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a wikipedia-like site for "what should have been"?
01:01:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: conservapedia hth
01:02:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Eric * New user account
01:11:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47087&oldid=13314 * Eric * (+43)
01:14:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47088&oldid=47087 * Eric * (+60)
01:22:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47089&oldid=47088 * Eric * (+71)
01:24:58 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
01:25:56 <oerjan> that's a wiki of a different lor.
01:27:33 <HackEgo> Colour is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
01:28:33 <hppavilion[1]> I want to change the entry so every word has a 'u' one letter before the end, but I don't know how to do that without fucking up the fanciousity
01:28:55 <hppavilion[1]> sed seems like the way to do it, but I can't think of the proper way
01:29:38 <oerjan> i shall leave the advicing on this to shachaf.
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01:46:12 <HackEgo> The Fundamental Theorem of Taneb? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:46:48 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*Taneb*: No such file or directory
01:47:23 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, no, that means that there isn't a file like that
01:47:39 <HackEgo> wisdom/fundamental theorem of taneb wisdom/people who taneb is not wisdom/taneb wisdom/tanebvention wisdom/tanebventory
01:48:00 <HackEgo> The Fundamental Theorem of Taneb states that for all strings S, if S describes a thing, then it is provable that Taneb invented the thing described by S; and, furthermore, that it is provable that there exists a string T that describes a thing that Taneb did not invent.
01:49:14 <hppavilion[1]> forall x: invented(Taneb, x) && exists x: ~invented(Taneb, x) seems to be impossible (where the domain of x is "things")
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01:51:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no, that's an example of "omega-inconsistency"
01:51:28 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's/\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)* \)/u\1/g' wisdom/colour
01:51:30 <HackEgo> Colouur ius ua phenomenoun froum outeur spacue designeud tuo drivue humanituy insanue anud brinug fortuh thue neuw ague ouf Cthu
01:51:52 <oerjan> where you can prove something exists but also that every possible example isn't it
01:52:41 <fizzie> There's a lot of redundant (in the sense of being immediately followed by another) color codes in the entry.
01:52:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: because a proof has to be finite, so you cannot collect all the counterexamples into a proof no example exists
01:53:19 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: If you require that the word be at least 4 letters long, it'll fit
01:53:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: not quite, although interestingly, Godel's original incompleteness proof had a weakness related to that
01:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Also, "BDSM" describes a thing that exists. Taneb
01:54:04 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
01:54:15 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
01:54:20 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: yes, it's inconsistent with other facts
01:54:43 <hppavilion[1]> Therefor, the Fundamental Theorem of Taneb is false.
01:55:53 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's/\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*[a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*[a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*\)\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)* \)/\1u\5/g' wisdom/colour
01:55:55 <HackEgo> Colouur is a phenomenoun froum outeur spacue designeud to drivue humanituy insanue and brinug fortuh the new age of Cthul
01:56:37 <HackEgo> Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
01:57:49 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's/\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*[a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*[a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*\)\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)* \)/\1u\5/g' -e 's/louur/lour/' -e 's/\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)/\2/g' wisdom/colour
01:57:51 <HackEgo> Colour is a phenomenoun froum outeur spacue designeud to drivue humanituy insanue and brinug fortuh the new age of Cthulhu.
01:57:59 <fizzie> De-redundanting it works, though.
01:58:07 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's/\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*[a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*[a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*\)\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)* \)/\1u\5/g' -e 's/louur/lour/' -e 's/\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)/\2/g' wisdom/colour
01:58:08 <oerjan> fizzie: just strip the colors and add them back with rainbow afterwards?
01:58:17 <HackEgo> deredundantation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:58:18 <fizzie> oerjan: But then I'd be *changing* them.
01:59:05 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's/\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)/\2/g' wisdom/color # let's OPTOMIZE this as well
01:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> `learn Dereduntantation is the process of making things less redundant. It is typically done with either regexes or regular expressions.
01:59:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'dereduntantation': Dereduntantation is the process of making things less redundant. It is typically done with either regexes or regular expressions.
01:59:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: have you even read the Gray entry properly, i'm skeptical
02:00:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The joke for Grey is that it's a chain of misspelling; like when you click google's "Do you mean" and it has another "Do you mean" in it
02:01:17 <oerjan> `le/rn Gey/I know nothing about Gey, sir.
02:02:53 <hppavilion[1]> When did most European companies give in and legalize Gay marriage?
02:03:10 <oerjan> very few companies have done that.
02:03:43 <hppavilion[1]> `learn Marriage was made legal in the United States on 2015-06-26
02:03:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'marriage': Marriage was made legal in the United States on 2015-06-26
02:03:49 <fizzie> Finland did it very recently -- in fact, I don't think the laws are quite in yet.
02:04:02 <oerjan> i'm not sure there was a particular time, they just started trickling in around 2000?
02:04:11 <Koen_> are you implying marriage wasn't legal in the us?
02:04:43 <fizzie> "Same-sex marriage will become legal in Finland on 1 March 2017. A bill for legalization was approved by the parliament on 12 December 2014 and signed by the President on 20 February 2015. In order to implement the law, follow-up changes in other acts were required. The legislative measure to make most of these changes was approved by the parliament on 17 February 2016 and signed by President ...
02:04:45 <hppavilion[1]> Koen_: But now that it is, there isn't a difference
02:04:52 <Koen_> I'm gonna go to bed
02:05:06 <oerjan> fizzie: has finland had a partnership law for years first, like norway did?
02:05:55 <Koen_> marriage is actually a very interesting topic, it's sad that so many people have too strong opinions to care discussing it
02:05:55 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, though it wasn't *quite* equal to marriage when it came to some things like adoption. Pretty close, though.
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02:06:11 <fizzie> And "for years" is a bit debatable, it's only been since 2002.
02:06:11 <Koen_> I mean, not marriage itself, but the involvement of the state in marriage
02:06:25 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 3h 2m 21s ago: The wisdom entry for "cello" has slashes that should be replaced with italicization
02:06:57 <boily> hppavellon[1]. good call! did I add you to the cocoonspirators?
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02:08:07 <oerjan> fizzie: neither was the norwegian one.
02:09:30 <boily> hppavilion[1]: the you should become one! for the low low price of your github account name!
02:10:19 <hppavilion[1]> Why do you have a tarp for people to fall into anyway.
02:10:52 <fizzie> I think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Finland#/media/File:Same_sex_marriage_map_Europe_detailed.svg implies that same-sex marriages become unregistered if you get on a boat on a lake.
02:11:32 <Koen_> so do you have to take your ring off everytime you board a boat on a lake?
02:11:54 <fizzie> And the question's entirely undefined if it's a sea.
02:11:58 <oerjan> sounds prone to accidents.
02:13:19 <boily> hppavilion[1]: tarp? nah, I ain't got no tarp, eh?
02:13:54 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Yeah; the sea doesn't even exist on the map
02:14:25 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Wait, have you checked for alpha filters? Maybe the ocean does it secretly, so it's invisible
02:18:56 <boily> I forgot who plays magic besides zzo38 in this here chännel...
02:24:08 <hppavilion[1]> I like reading Fox News because it reminds me how much stupider I could be and makes me happy for not being so.
02:24:25 <HackEgo> The doshes are what the gostak distims.
02:24:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: his neural nets are leaking into the wisdom
02:25:54 <boily> oerjan: I fear it was pretswetty hth → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gostak
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02:47:56 <HackEgo> 790) <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september \ 1245) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
02:51:16 <tswett> Are there any solutions to a^n + b^p = c^q, where {a, b, c} = {2, 3, 5} and n, p, and q are integers greater than 1?
02:52:33 <tswett> There are, of course, a few solutions where n, p, and q are nonnegative integers...
02:54:12 <tswett> 1 + 2 = 3, 1 + 3 = 4, 1 + 4 = 5, 2 + 3 = 5, 3 + 5 = 8, 9 + 16 = 25... wait, there's the answer.
02:54:33 <tswett> Next question. How many solutions are there where n, p, and q are nonnegative integers?
02:55:17 <tswett> The other two solutions that immediately come to mind are 2 + 25 = 27 and 3 + 125 = 128.
02:59:53 <Cale> I thought n was supposed to be greater than 1
03:00:09 <tswett> There should be no more solutions with c^q less than or equal to 256.
03:00:12 <tswett> Cale: I changed my mind.
03:00:23 <tswett> 9 + 16 = 25 answers the original question positively.
03:02:32 <Cale> 5^0 + 2^3 = 3^2
03:02:49 <tswett> Yup, I missed that one.
03:04:03 <Cale> That's the only one which is quite like that. 8 and 9 are the only consecutive integers which are perfect powers.
03:04:28 <tswett> Perfect powers of any kind, not just perfect prime powers?
03:04:51 <tswett> Are there only finitely many pairs of perfect powers which are 2 apart?
03:06:20 <tswett> Aha, looks like yes: https://oeis.org/A076427
03:06:45 <tswett> Apparently that's known to be the case for all values of 2 up to at least 100.
03:07:18 <Cale> Wait, this list is not very meaningful
03:07:26 <Cale> http://www.sspectra.com/Pillai.txt -- it comes from here
03:07:37 <Cale> "Perfect powers examined up to 10^18"
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03:08:15 <Cale> I know that it's an open question whether 6 is the difference of two perfect powers.
03:08:56 <Cale> https://oeis.org/A074981
03:09:49 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan's_conjecture#Pillai.27s_conjecture - Pillai's conjecture states that for all n, there are only finitely many perfect powers that are n apart. It follows from the ABC conjecture.
03:10:41 <Cale> So we only have to understand inter-universal Teichmüller theory, and we'll have it ;)
03:11:23 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb has a fundamental theorem named after him, but does he have a conjecture?
03:11:25 <shachaf> I was asking in another channel the other day: Is there some direct topological interpretation of big-O notation?
03:11:31 <tswett> Now for some reason I wonder: which 5-smooth numbers are non-trivially the sum of two other 5-smooth numbers, where "non-trivially" means that the three numbers must not all have a prime factor in common?
03:11:49 <tswett> shachaf: what sort of topological interpretation do you mean?
03:11:51 <Cale> shachaf: Topological? Not as far as I'm aware
03:12:05 <shachaf> You can define it as exists K >= 0. lim_{n -> ∞}{f(n)/g(n)} = K or something like that.
03:12:36 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion[1]'s first conjecture: No one has yet bothered to prove hppavilion[1]'s first conjecture
03:12:48 <shachaf> Cale: Well, there's a nice concrete way of talking about the limit of a sequence, for instance, where you extend that sequence to the extended naturals and ask for f(∞).
03:13:05 <shachaf> Maybe that's not an "interpretation".
03:13:18 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I can prove that conjecture.
03:13:58 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: By proving it, you disprove it, thus meaning you have not proven it, so it holds
03:14:04 <tswett> If anyone had ever managed to prove the conjecture before you stated it, that would mean that the conjecture is false, and so they could not have proved it. Contradiction.
03:14:18 <shachaf> Cale: Why lim sup, when you're talking about n -> ∞?
03:14:32 <tswett> shachaf: the limit could diverge by oscillating.
03:14:32 <Cale> The limit may not exist, but the lim sup will
03:15:21 <shachaf> That makes me want a direct answer even more.
03:15:36 <tswett> shachaf: now, big-O notation is a partial order, right? So it has... I was about to say it has an order topology, but I don't know if partial orders get those.
03:16:37 <shachaf> You can make a topological space out of any preorder, but I don't think that's the sort of thing I'm looking for.
03:16:57 <Cale> Well, we've just used division
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03:17:46 <tswett> shachaf: what topological space construction are you thinking of?
03:17:55 <Cale> It's also not going to be invariant under homeomorphisms
03:18:41 <tswett> `learn i,i i,i what is i,i
03:18:45 <HackEgo> Learned 'i,i': i,i i,i what is i,i
03:19:11 <shachaf> tswett: I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
03:19:28 <tswett> shachaf: I mean, when you say "you can make a topological space out of any preorder", what are you talking about?
03:19:50 <shachaf> It's just nice how you can concretely say "extend f : N -> X to a continuous f' : N* -> X, and then look at f'(∞)"
03:19:59 <Cale> f(x) = x^3 + x is an automorphism of R, but composing functions with that will change their asymptotic behaviour
03:20:30 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandrov_topology#The_Alexandrov_topology_on_a_preordered_set
03:21:31 <Cale> Ah, perhaps replacing the topology, okay
03:22:05 <shachaf> That last thing was answering tswett's question.
03:23:31 <tswett> Looking at it as a partial order, how about the topology generated by {x : x < a} and {x : x > a}?
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03:27:21 <Cale> So maybe the question is something like: Is there a way to associate to functions f: N -> N some topological spaces X_f such that there is a continuous map X_f -> X_g iff f is O(g)?
03:27:55 <Cale> (or perhaps swap them)
03:28:03 <shachaf> Sure, something like that would probably be an answer.
03:28:18 <shachaf> Or some characterization of ʘ(f)
03:28:39 <shachaf> That was U+0298 instead of U+0398.
03:28:56 <shachaf> But they look similar to each other.
03:40:45 <shachaf> Do you need any extra structure define lim sup for arbitrary topological spaces?
03:41:18 <tswett> Yeah. An automorphism of R has a topological space switches lim sup and lim inf.
03:41:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:41:24 <HackEgo> [U+0298 LATIN LETTER BILABIAL CLICK]
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03:51:08 <Cale> For all those bilabial clicks you need to make while pronouncing Latin.
03:52:11 <shachaf> Cale: Can you figure out what ꙮ notation would mean?
03:52:32 <shachaf> There's a SIGBOVIK paper in it, I'm sure.
03:53:08 <Cale> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
03:54:07 <HackEgo> 1136) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
03:54:25 <Cale> I don't understand how this letter from a fictional work gets into Unicode, but Klingon doesn't.
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03:56:19 <Cale> We should make a proposal to include the Klingon alphabet as "additional Cyrillic characters"
03:56:53 <shachaf> You might be able to sneak it in under CJK.
03:56:55 <Cale> Cyrillic Klingon of course
03:57:43 <shachaf> The only weakness of that limerick.
04:05:59 <HackEgo> ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
04:06:04 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
04:10:44 <Cale> Let V and W be Banach spaces, and g: V -> W, then ꙮ(g) is the set of functions f: V -> W such that for any u in V, we have that the function r |--> f(r*u) is O(r |--> g(r*u)), i.e. in each direction f is asymptotically bounded by g.
04:11:25 <Cale> (but the bound seen by each of the many eyes may differ)
04:12:04 <Cale> shachaf: ^^ hth
04:15:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Eric]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47090 * Eric * (+12) Created page with "This is Eric"
04:19:47 <oerjan> `learn Jerk is the integral of snap.
04:19:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'jerk': Jerk is the integral of snap.
04:20:35 <shachaf> I still haven't figured out good answers for my questions about the limit operator L : (R -v R) -> (R -v R)
04:20:39 <shachaf> (Where -v means a partial function.)
04:27:49 <Cale> `learn Snap is a simple web development framework for unix systems, written in the Haskell programming language. Snap has a high level of test coverage and is well-documented.
04:27:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'snap': Snap is a simple web development framework for unix systems, written in the Haskell programming language. Snap has a high level of test coverage and is well-documented.
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04:28:24 <shachaf> And there I was about to define it as a Sierpiński Nap.
04:28:54 <shachaf> oerjan: also i can't quite tell what Cale is doing here, can you twh
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04:30:50 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
04:31:07 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with single objects.
04:31:10 <HackEgo> A monoid is the easy version of a category.
04:31:29 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
04:32:49 <Cale> Monads are lax functors * -> Cat
04:33:02 <HackEgo> Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
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04:34:50 <Cale> So monoids are just lax functors * -> BSet, where BSet is the one-object delooping bicategory of the monoidal category of sets.
04:35:29 <shachaf> I can't think of a good definition for "just monoid".
04:40:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: also i can't quite tell what Cale is doing here, can you twh <-- clearly it's meta-ironical hth
04:41:49 <Cale> A just monoid is a monoid which is based on reasonable or adequate grounds.
04:42:24 <HackEgo> Justice is just behavior or treatment.
04:43:00 <shachaf> `` rgrep -le '(is|are) just' wisdom
04:43:31 <oerjan> `learn Applicatives are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
04:43:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'applicative': Applicatives are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
04:43:36 <Cale> A monoid M is called left-adequate if every principal left ideal is projective as a left M-act, and the set E(M) of idempotents forms a semilattice
04:44:02 <oerjan> i sort of thought we had that one already.
04:44:23 <HackEgo> applicative functor? ¯\(°_o)/¯
04:45:47 <shachaf> `` mv wisdom/applicative{,\ functor}; sed -i 's/s/ functors/' wisdom/applicative\ functor
04:46:21 <oerjan> `? applicative functor
04:46:23 <HackEgo> Applicative functors are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
04:46:56 <HackEgo> Functors are just morphisms in the category of small categories
04:47:11 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/functor
04:47:47 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: "mk[x]" file//contents >&2; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "$key")" && echo "$key"
04:50:34 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -name "*$(echo "$1" | lowercase)*" -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
04:51:26 <shachaf> `mkx bin/sedk//[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: sedk file//operation; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || exit 1; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key" }
04:52:47 <shachaf> `sedk bin/sedk//s;u;'u;;s"n"n'"
04:52:49 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/sedk: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file
04:53:47 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/..$/; }/' bin/sedk
04:53:57 <shachaf> `sedk bin/sedk//s;u;'u;;s"n"n'"
04:54:00 <HackEgo> bin/sedk//[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sedk file//operation'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || exit 1; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; }
04:54:33 <HackEgo> bin/sedk//[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sedk file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || exit 1; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; }
04:55:54 <shachaf> Maybe I should've rnoooooodled that.
04:58:03 <shachaf> `` mv bin/sedk bin/sled; sedk 'bin/sled//s-sedk-sled-'
04:58:07 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: sedk: command not found
04:58:26 <shachaf> `sled bin/sled//s-sedk-sled-
04:58:28 <HackEgo> bin/sled//[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || exit 1; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; }
05:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> Category Theory-related wisdom tends to start with "xs are just"
05:17:32 <HackEgo> cat: culprits: No such file or directory
05:17:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: innocent: not found
05:22:32 <oerjan> clearly a case of advanced amnesia.
05:23:15 <shachaf> so derivatives [4..6] are called snap, crackle, and pop
06:05:16 <HackEgo> emacs is the weird brother of nano.
06:05:19 <HackEgo> vi is in a relationship with emacs.
06:11:19 <oerjan> only if you incest there is.
06:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> Ooooh, the wisdom PDF has a whole chapter on Tanebventions
06:18:57 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
06:19:33 <shachaf> `sled wisdom/tanebvention//s/lemma/lemma, histograms,/
06:19:37 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, histograms,, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
06:19:50 <shachaf> `sled wisdom/tanebvention//s/,,/,/
06:19:53 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, histograms, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
06:22:36 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry /would/ read you if it weren't for the fact that IRC hadn't been invented at the time
06:23:38 <HackEgo> wisdom/soviet russia//¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
06:23:59 <shachaf> your joke is only a reference to another joke and it isn't even properly punctuated
06:24:06 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/soviet russia
06:24:21 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] int-e b_jonas oerjan
06:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry /would/ read you if it weren't for the fact that IRC hadn't been invented at the time.
06:25:11 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/soviet\ russia | grep summary: | grep -v hpp
06:25:18 <HackEgo> summary: <int-e> revert \ summary: <b_jonas> slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. \ summary: <oerjan> le/rn soviet russia/\xc2\xaf\\(\xc2\xb0\xe2\x80\x8b_o)/\xc2\xaf soviet russia?
06:26:17 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
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06:58:28 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
06:59:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also, irc was invented while soviet russia still existed hth
07:00:30 <HackEgo> russian reversal? ¯\(°_o)/¯
07:00:40 <HackEgo> lithuanian inversion? ¯\(°_o)/¯
07:01:48 <oerjan> it's also the old joke
07:01:50 <HackEgo> french expansion? ¯\(°_o)/¯
07:02:10 <HackEgo> greek oliveoilization? ¯\(°_o)/¯
07:02:39 <oerjan> . o O ( which countries have imploded? )
07:04:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[++brainfuck++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47091&oldid=47085 * Maximngy * (+44)
07:04:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[++brainfuck++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47092&oldid=47091 * Maximngy * (-40)
07:05:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[++brainfuck++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47093&oldid=47092 * Maximngy * (+5)
07:06:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:++brainfuck++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47094 * Hppavilion1 * (+61) Informed.
07:06:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:++brainfuck++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47095&oldid=47094 * Hppavilion1 * (+11) Updated to match new title
07:07:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47096&oldid=47073 * Maximngy * (+66)
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07:08:24 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... I wonder if there are any programs that take improper english written by a non-native speaker and attempt to determine their native language
07:10:33 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Well it wouldn't work for fluent nonnative speakers, but it'd be designed for people who know just enough english to scrape by
07:11:09 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Well the fact that you aren't a native speaker is news to me IIRC, so...
07:11:38 <hppavilion[1]> (ironically, "I'm" should be "I was" there, I guess)
07:12:05 <lifthrasiir> yeah, that kind of mistakes. I'm particularly bad at tense for example
07:13:08 <lifthrasiir> and articles, but everyone learning English seems to fail on articles anyway
07:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> "You should not end a sentence with a preposition. Wait, dammit."
07:17:22 <izabera> "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. World War V will be fought with crossbows, World War VI will be lasers, and World War VII will be blowguns. I don't know about World Wars VIII through XI. World War XII will use the same weapons as III, but will be fought entirely within underground tunnels. World War XIV will—Hey, come
07:17:24 <izabera> back! I have a whole list!" -- Albert Einstein
07:17:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'einstein': einstein is a germaneau for "a stone"
07:19:45 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: hmm, everyone whose native language is not indo-european. that should be more clear.
07:20:27 <lifthrasiir> (other languages often have articles, guaranteed, but indo-european articles can be quite complex compared to others)
07:28:57 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: no no, look, Hungarian has articles that are used very similar to those in English or French
07:29:25 <b_jonas> Indo-European is not relevant here in practice, because if your native language is Russian you are going to have trouble with articles in Englih
07:29:42 <b_jonas> Indo-European didn't use to have articles originally
07:29:55 <b_jonas> those are later inventions, and stolen multiple times
07:30:10 <b_jonas> they're not inherited on the main branches of the family tree
07:30:35 <lifthrasiir> yup, that's true, still I feel most modern indo-european languages have a system of articles anyway
07:30:59 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: um, maybe? I dunno
07:31:32 <b_jonas> it might be half and half, but some of the ones that have articles (like Swedish) have a different system from English or French
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07:32:22 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: for one record, affixes give another headache for foreign learners, though English does not have them (in general)
07:32:44 <lifthrasiir> one of reason that Korean is particularly hard for many other speakers
07:33:09 <lifthrasiir> (and Japanese, which is worse thanks to the absence of spacing)
07:33:44 <lifthrasiir> (and "thanks" used as a sarcasm just to be sure)
07:33:47 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: especially in the languages that have crazy unlearnable random forms of how a particular affix looks like when appended to a particular word, like Hungarian, where they're so random that half of the time they're used as a shiboleth to identify non-native speakers reliably, and the other half of the time even native speakers don't agree on the correct form
07:34:02 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: you seem to be very good at hitting issues that don't apply to b_jonas :P
07:35:02 <b_jonas> oerjan: what? they sure apply. just because Hungarian has a crazy verb conjugation (and also noun declination) system doesn't make conjugation in other languages much easier to learn, because they don't work the same
07:35:27 <oerjan> b_jonas: well you have articles, and you have affixes galore.
07:35:31 <b_jonas> oerjan: articles in English _are_ easy to learn for me, because they work practically the same as in Hungarian, with some rare differences
07:35:52 <lifthrasiir> wow, Hungarian affixes seem to be... a lot. Korean also has lots of them but in a slightly different way.
07:35:52 <oerjan> obviously hungarian calqued articles from its indoeuropean neighbors.
07:36:11 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but Japanese at least has some of the nouns and verbs written in Kanji and all the suffixes written in hiragana, doesn't that sort of count as spaces?
07:36:28 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: yeah, created out of necessity (unfortunately).
07:36:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: of course, even the indoeuropean neighbors stole the articles from each other way after they split
07:37:20 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but I Japanese verb conjugation does have a reputation to be hard to learn, yse
07:38:20 <lifthrasiir> hmm, if I read the WP correctly, Hungarian affixes do not compose, it just have tons of them for each class, right? (plus some terrible mutation rules)
07:39:18 <lifthrasiir> Korean affixes compose a lot, and ruins automated segmentation
07:39:24 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: it does have composing affixes (called képző), but also ordinary verb affixes and noun affixes that form the conjugation and declination, and those don't compose, so you have basically at most two attached to a verb or noun
07:39:59 <b_jonas> “tons of them for each class” - not compared to Japanese I think, but I'm not really sure
07:40:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think i read once that greek got the definite article from phoenician some time between homeric and classical greek and from there it spread to others.
07:41:07 <oerjan> but i'm not sure how accurate that is.
07:42:52 <b_jonas> Basically, a Hungarian noun takes a “jel” suffix which indicates singular vs plural and also possessive (but the possessive is null most of the time in the text), followed by a “rag” suffix which is ordinary noun declination indicating the role of the noun group in the sentence (sort of like in Latin, and somewhat less like Japanese);
07:44:45 <b_jonas> whereas an adjective takes possibly a “jel” suffix indicating comparative, followed by possibly an ordinary noun “jel” and noun “rag” (most often both omitted because they can be used only if the adjective is used as a noun group alone or a qualifier after a noun, but most of the time adjectives are used as epitheths before a noun in which case it's forbidden);
07:47:43 <b_jonas> and Hungarian verbs take a “jel” indicating mood and tense (there's four possibilities, plus some obsolate ones, the most common one is empty for the indicative present, two other forms are notated by an aux verb instead of a suffix), followed by a “rag” that agrees with the count and person of the subject and the determinacy of the object (13 possibilities).
07:48:31 <b_jonas> So a Hungarian verb has 4*13 possibly forms (one less actually because there's two that always look the same, but that doesn't help understanding the system).
07:50:34 <b_jonas> The basic system is simple, but the part that's impossible to learn is that when you actually attach a suffix to a word the letters and sounds you get are modified in ways impossible to predict.
07:52:18 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: does Korean have a verb conjugation system that's reputed to be hard to learn, like Japanese? I know Korean is supposed to have a grammar similar to Japanese, but I'm not sure if that applies to that part too.
07:53:05 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: Korean have no conjugation system, probably everything is done with affixes.
07:53:20 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: um, what's the difference?
07:53:50 <lifthrasiir> the problem is you initially don't know where to cut
07:57:42 <lifthrasiir> some example: "했다" ("[subject] did [...]") <- short for "하였다" = 하- (verb, lit. to do) / -였- (past tense) / -다 (plain verb ending)
07:58:24 <lifthrasiir> you may notice that there *is* a contraction. it is not proper conjugation though because you can literally replace every occurrence of 했다 with 하였다, so it is rather a pronunciation contraction
07:59:04 <lifthrasiir> well, or abbreviation if you prefer that. kind of contractions like "im" in German (<- in dem)
08:00:25 * oerjan wondered why hungarian verbs had a prime number of "rag"s, then remembered -lak/lek
08:03:05 <lifthrasiir> now introducing tons of variations for this verb: 할 (future tense, needs aux verb), 할까요 (future tense plus inquiry), 합시다 (present tense plus proposition), 할까봐 (future tense, nominal "-까" plus suggestive "-봐"), and so on
08:03:52 <lifthrasiir> there are several, not always compatible, variations for each kind of affixes, resulting in literally thousands of them
08:05:10 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: right. that counts more or less like conjugation for me, unless there are also suffixes with a varying form that can be separated from the word it applies to by other words (not just other affixes on the same word)
08:07:17 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: IIRC conjugation is related to the grammatical tags and thus imperative (you cannot use non-conjugated forms interchangably). I think Korean does not do that.
08:07:56 <lifthrasiir> there are some close-to-conjugation rules that are imperative, though
08:08:11 <lifthrasiir> (and some of them irregular, as common in natural languages)
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08:11:02 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: hmm, so you say it's not conjugation unless the agreement or suffixes are mostly mandatory on all verbs where they make sense, whereas in Koeran they are often optional and used only when they're necessary?
08:11:59 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: they are common contractions, but otherwise yes, I think so
08:12:37 <lifthrasiir> not to say that it is easier, actually that's more difficult (as you have to learn both and when it is appropriate)
08:13:20 <b_jonas> What I don't understand really is how languages like Chinese can work, for they have so few suffixes or grammatical particles that I don't understand how any listener can split groups of words in a sentence and tell their role in the sentence.
08:14:10 <b_jonas> Maybe I just have a mistaken impression about Chinese and it has more grammatical particles than it seems, I dunno.
08:14:20 <lifthrasiir> in my understanding Chinese is quite similar to English (in terms of grammatical characteristics), so the word order is very important and some supporting words should be used to clarify their meanings
08:14:56 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: English is bad too, yes, but at least it has articles on some of the nouns, which helps.
08:16:00 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I think Chinese also has some particles, 的 being a prime example
08:16:06 <b_jonas> Whereas Chinese has neither articles (like English) nor lots of case markers after most nouns (like latin or Japanese)
08:16:40 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: lots of particles sure, but are they commonly used? and I think I don't count particles that occur only at the end of the sentence.
08:17:42 <lifthrasiir> for me it is more concerning that Chinese has a relatively simple phonology (well, tones, right, but tones are often missed during conversation)
08:19:10 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: why is that important? lots of languages have a simple phonology, Japanese included.
08:19:49 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: tons of synonyms and near-synonyms as a result. (Japanese has tons of them as well)
08:20:14 <lifthrasiir> well, Japanese seems to be fine so that may not be an actual problem
08:20:41 <b_jonas> I hear it is a problem in spoken Japanese, which is why they add lots of extra words to disambiguate.
08:27:48 <mroman> what is a problem in spoken japanese?
08:28:13 <b_jonas> causing word-level ambiguities
08:28:19 <mroman> they have lots of those
08:28:39 <mroman> although some of those stress different syllables
08:31:07 <b_jonas> mroman: right, pitch accent. half of the sources say it doesn't even really exist in Japanese, or only in certain dialects. I have no idea what the truth about it is.
08:31:11 <mroman> it's almost ridiculous how many homophones they have
08:31:29 <mroman> b_jonas: as far as I know it's certain dialects.
08:31:51 <lifthrasiir> ah, I wrote synonyms when I should've write homonym
08:31:54 <mroman> but I don't know if there's some "official dialect" that has different pitch accents for homophones
08:32:16 <mroman> most famous one is hashi
08:32:36 <mroman> or probably even more :)
08:33:08 <mroman> apparentely also tip/point/(end of street)
08:33:34 <mroman> also the first (harvest, catch) of the season or year
08:33:44 <b_jonas> mroman: meh, a few isolated words with many meanings (like “scale”) doesn't really prove anything
08:34:26 <mroman> a word with many meanings is still one word
08:34:34 <oerjan> hm, bit of a bitcoin boom
08:35:04 <mroman> but jisho lists at least 4-5 words with "hashi" as its readnig.
08:36:09 <mroman> I'm no linguist. I don't even know when something is really a different word or the same
08:36:27 <mroman> there's for example "Schloss" in german, which is either a "castle" or a "lock"
08:36:44 <mroman> I don't know if those are homonyms or just a word with two meanings
08:38:38 <mroman> hm. polysem, homonym, holograph
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09:39:31 <b_jonas> mroman: yes, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference
09:39:48 <b_jonas> in a few cases, different dictionaries decide differentl
09:41:44 <mroman> yeah.. wp says it's pretty much up to the origin of the word
09:42:03 <mroman> whether it's a ploysem or homonym
09:44:02 <hppavilion[1]> No website should have a loading screen if it isn't streaming content
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09:48:53 <mroman> according to industry best practices every website should have a 30s loading screen with a shitload of ads (that also install malware on your machine to display even more ads)
09:49:07 <mroman> as well as an anti-ad-blocker that redirects you to malicious porn sites if an adblocker is detected
09:49:51 <mroman> also some of the ads need to look like regular MS Windows windows (even better if you detect the OS so you don't display Windows Vista window borders when using Windows XP)
09:50:14 <mroman> most importantly it needs to start shaking once the user wants to close it, if the user closes it the user needs to be asked if he's sure
09:50:16 <b_jonas> mroman: maybe I'm just visiting the wrong websites for this, but the "anti-adblocker" mostly sounds like a myth to me that everyone says other websites are doing, and is totally possible to do, but almost no website actually uses.
09:50:41 <b_jonas> mroman: some websites have overlays that javascript removes, but it's specifically for disabled javascript, not ad blocking I think
09:50:44 <mroman> but they just display a message :)
09:51:19 <mroman> some websites put an overlay over the content if ads didn't load properly
09:51:31 <mroman> which you can remove with firebug or alike (delete node)
09:51:32 <b_jonas> (really overlays, where the page loads anyway behind it so you can just remove it, not the javascript redirect kind where you can't even read the page without interpreting the javascript)
09:51:48 <mroman> tougher websites do a redirect
09:51:51 <b_jonas> mroman: maybe I just confuse them with that
09:51:54 <mroman> so you temporarily have to disable redirects.
09:52:18 <mroman> others just serve ads from their own domain
09:52:25 <mroman> which is just a proxy of the actual ad network :)
09:52:54 <mroman> that's not really an anti-ad-blocker though, just anti-ad-blocking strategy
09:53:35 <mroman> proxying ads through your own domain is probably currently the best thing you can do to still serve ads.
09:56:23 <mroman> also as an oem manufacturer you have to install rootkits that trust your own certificates so you can man in the middle all https connections and insert your own ads
09:56:51 <mroman> I don't know why companies can get off the hook so easily when they do these things.
09:57:38 <mroman> If I were to walk into some company and install a rootkit there I'd go to prison
10:09:49 <mroman> but I guess my world view is just too distorted :D
10:10:13 <mroman> by 2016 I'd have thought some OS manufacturer had the guts to address some root problems when it comes to malware and stuff like that
10:10:20 <mroman> but nothing much happened
10:13:26 <mroman> it's almost like Microsoft has some business with either malware or anti-malware manufacturers :D
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10:45:15 <lambdabot> EGLL 310920Z AUTO 35010KT 5000 -RA OVC011/// //////CB 11/10 Q1015 RERA TEMPO 4000 RA BKN009
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11:31:58 <izabera> just wanted some info about the -go suffix that i can't find anywhere
11:32:42 <Cale> uhhh... example?
11:33:42 <izabera> in bleach, yoruichi calls byakuya "byakuya-go"
11:34:30 <Cale> Sure it's not -bo?
11:35:02 <izabera> not sure it's very similar
11:35:19 <izabera> oh i see, bo is on wikipedia
11:35:41 <Cale> -bou actually, I guess
11:37:16 <izabera> but it really sounds similar <.<
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12:39:34 <HackEgo> Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however.
12:40:36 <gamemanj> wrong - the companion cube, though vaguely cube-shaped, has various ridges, circles, and other alterations to the basic shape of a cube, that make it not precisely a cube.
12:41:09 <gamemanj> However, given that it is still classified as a cube, the "but only one shape" phrase should be changed to "but always match the same general outline of a shape".
12:55:16 <int-e> gamemanj: so basically you're saying that the wisdom entry meets the usual #esoteric standard of being a satisfying mix of truth and misinformation.
12:57:27 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; grep Dante *
12:57:41 <HackEgo> grep: le: Is a directory \ grep: ¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: ¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ plan9:Plan9 is the precursor to Dante's Inferno, home of the Limbo programming language. \ Binary file reflection matches \ virgil:Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgende
12:58:19 * int-e forgets his own wisdom entries...
12:58:26 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/plan9
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15:02:46 <gamemanj> Last time I messed with BytePusher, it was to try AOTing it, but that turned out to be impractical. But... what about a JIT?
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17:25:40 <gamemanj> It should be possible to JIT BytePusher with... well, it seems a maximum of 512 segments per frame during some parts, but during runtime averaging on somewhere like 270. Need to get more stats for average segment length...
17:26:50 <gamemanj> Unlike my previous attempt at messing with BytePusher execution, this one actually runs programs, though right now it only compiles it to something else it ends up interpreting.
17:27:16 <gamemanj> ...and it's slower than a normal BytePusher interpreter.
17:27:28 <gamemanj> (Even when it's not recompiling segments.)
17:30:18 <gamemanj> I should be able to more or less zero the recompiled segment count by caching "alternate versions" of segments.
17:30:43 <gamemanj> ...but that probably won't make it faster than a normal BytePusher interpreter.
17:33:48 <gamemanj> Ok, so even more mressing around shows that the average segment it can JIT on a complex program is 9 instructions long.
17:34:18 <gamemanj> I am beginning to doubt the utility of this...
17:37:07 <gamemanj> Hmm. Ok, so on the Audio Test it manages an average segment length of 7 instructions, and never compiles a segment more than once. I'm a bit more optimistic now.
17:37:58 <gamemanj> ...and it only compiled 2 segments.
17:39:43 <HackEgo> olist 1038: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:54:48 <shachaf> Not in this channel, but it might've happened in another channel.
17:55:06 <shachaf> Or on the other side of a netsplit, I guess, but then HackEgo wasn't there to help.
17:55:21 <shachaf> The poor olister, forced to manually type everyone's nick.
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18:49:54 <HackEgo> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
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19:30:46 <HackEgo> get off my lawn? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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19:54:41 <zzo38> What is wrong with this question?
19:58:43 <Taneb> zzo38, it's self-referential
19:59:17 <zzo38> O, yes, that is what it is.
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20:04:04 <shachaf> Taneb: you're self-referential hth
20:04:59 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
20:05:21 <Taneb> shachaf, yes, it's something I'm working on
20:06:53 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, histograms, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
20:07:19 <gamemanj> Let's see which of those are fake...
20:07:38 <gamemanj> Hmm... Probably that last sentence, but nothing else
20:08:04 <Taneb> gamemanj, the last sentence is the most true of all
20:08:15 <gamemanj> It's not like I've ever seen anyone called Stephen Wolfram, so he's probably an invention of Taneb
20:08:16 <Taneb> I'm completely asexual and a bit uncomfortable with being associated with sex
20:08:55 <gamemanj> ...oh. In which case, it may not have been the greatest idea putting it in a sentence which may or may not contain lies...
20:09:15 <gamemanj> Did anyone ever try submarine jousting? Sounds fun but dangerous...
20:09:33 <gamemanj> Also, Taneb is probably at least 100 years old
20:10:15 <gamemanj> (+ some extra time in which Taneb became old enough to potentially conceive of a broadcasting corporation for Britain)
20:10:16 <Taneb> gamemanj, Phantom_Hoover is quite good at submarine jousting from what I've heard
20:10:36 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes it
20:11:12 <Phantom_Hoover> also i'm not in the submarine team, i just knew some of the people on it
20:11:32 <gamemanj> And everybody knows Taneb invented the torus, they share a first letter
20:11:46 <Taneb> gamemanj, a torus, topologically, is just a torus
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20:13:19 <gamemanj> Taneb: I am tautology resistant to 104 megaiterations.
20:14:13 <gamemanj> (Should someone provide a tautology with 104.000001 megaiterations, I will fall asleep for 10 hours.)
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20:14:42 <gamemanj> (This roughly matches the amount of time it would take for me to actually listen to the tautology.)
20:18:25 <Koen_> what's an iteration of a tautology?
20:24:59 <Taneb> Koen_, the iteration of a tautology, of course
20:25:25 <Koen_> oh, I see what you're doing
20:27:21 <Koen_> `? shrugging smiley
20:27:24 <HackEgo> shrugging smiley? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:28:27 <Koen_> thank you gamemanj
20:28:46 <HackEgo> m–rdalsjökull//M–rdalsjökull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base.
20:28:46 <HackEgo> right//Right is not two wrongs but three lefts.
20:28:46 <HackEgo> antediluvian//We could tell you what antediluvian means, but that would just open a flood of questions.
20:28:46 <HackEgo> izabera//izabera is a bradyherpetologist. She is probably implemented in bash.
20:30:51 <gamemanj> It seems unlikely that a person could be implemented in bash (and the CTCP VERSION doesn't say "bash" either), so the wisdom entry is probably telling a lie
20:31:15 <HackEgo> The Macabres have been the hereditary rulers of Lochaber for 3 centuries.
20:31:48 <HackEgo> macabre//The Macabres have been the hereditary rulers of Lochaber for 3 centuries.
20:37:02 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Phantom_Hoover
20:37:20 <gamemanj> ...or at least one of them, at any rate!
20:39:28 <izabera> no it was something about python being slow
20:42:38 <shachaf> `le/rn usual suspects/There are 3.99 usual suspects, but they're usually rounded up.
20:43:51 <shachaf> `` ln -s usual\ suspect wisdom/the\ usual\ suspect
20:44:54 <shachaf> gamemanj: clearly your suspectometer is broken hth
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20:55:16 <fizzie> A horse is a horse, of course, of course.
20:55:21 <fizzie> (Speaking of tautologies.)
20:56:11 <shachaf> fizzie: Of course a horse is a horse.
20:56:20 <shachaf> But I'm not sure that that's true of course.
20:56:24 <shachaf> It might need to be proved.
20:57:15 <shachaf> I guess "of course" is a linear logic operator and a comonad.
20:57:27 <shachaf> So "of course A" implies "of course of course A".
20:57:38 <olsner> being a horse is true of a horse but not of a course
20:57:52 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines.
20:59:30 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
21:00:47 <fizzie> A horse by any other name would smell as sweet.
21:01:15 <gamemanj> ...I bothered to search Nepeta Leijon. I am now unsure what, exactly, to say.
21:01:33 <gamemanj> Thus, this placeholder message has been left. <end placeholder>
21:01:39 <zzo38> I think there is a file for accounting but it would seem from above they do not have the file of accountant yet?
21:02:05 <HackEgo> Xathrid Gorgon \ 5B \ Creature -- Gorgon \ 3/6 \ Deathtouch (Any amount of damage this deals to a creature is enough to destroy it.) \ {2}{B}, {T}: Put a petrification counter on target creature. It gains defender and becomes a colorless artifact in addition to its other types. Its activated abilities can't be activated. (A creature with defender c
21:02:14 <zzo38> In the wisdom file
21:02:21 <olsner> fungot: what do you say about nepeta leijon?
21:02:21 <fungot> olsner: please go to :image:herald.jpgthe image description page and edit it to include a wikipedia:fair use rationale guidelineexplanation or rationale as to why its use in ' ' fnord' ( unethical offspring) of the page would hurt the island image.
21:02:36 <zzo38> You should reprogram random-card to strip the reminder text so that the other text will fit.
21:03:12 <shachaf> zzo38: But what if you want to read the reminder text?
21:03:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: I was thinking of auditors (from Discworld), not accountants.
21:03:30 <zzo38> O, OK then write the one about auditor from Discworld
21:03:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure. The remainder text is useful when you take a random card from twenty years of set of crazy keywords.
21:04:03 <zzo38> shachaf: Then you can use a command-line switch to enable it possibly
21:04:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, maybe if it doesn't fit in the output then it could make sense to strip the reminder text
21:04:24 <b_jonas> as in, strip only if it wouldn't fit otherwise
21:04:36 <b_jonas> `card-by-name benalish hero
21:04:39 <HackEgo> Benalish Hero \ W \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 1/1 \ Banding (Any creatures with banding, and up to one without, can attack in a band. Bands are blocked as a group. If any creatures with banding you control are blocking or being blocked by a creature, you divide that creature's combat damage, not its controller, among any of the creatures it's bei
21:04:40 <zzo38> b_jonas: But now the text won't fit on one message. I think the reminder text is waste space (and isn't always perfectly accurate), because you can look up the rules instead.
21:05:01 <zzo38> If you do not know what a keyword means then you should look up in the rules.
21:06:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: part of the problem is that wizards sometimes omits reminder text from where it would be really useful and would not be distracting, like on Sea's Claim, or like on creatures with protection from a color and not many other abilities (is there even ANY card where protection was printed with a reminder text?).
21:07:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: Sea's Claim is particularly stupid, as it has a reminder text for "Enchant land" which is probably the ability more people would know without reminder text, but no reminder text for "Enchanted land is an Island." which is way more likely to be confusing for players
21:07:56 <zzo38> I think reminder text should always be omitted unless the text is sufficiently unclear due to English is a stupid language perhaps
21:08:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: no no, if the text is unclear because English is a stupid language, then the ability must be rephrased. don't just fix that with a reminder text.
21:09:17 <b_jonas> Fixing the ability might be difficult of course, and requires lots of planning ahead with the rules.
21:09:26 <b_jonas> But that planning ahead is what the rules manager is for.
21:09:28 <zzo38> In case rephrasing is impossible maybe, or if the rephrasing makes it not compatible with the rules of the game
21:10:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and if they really can't rephrase, even with fixing the rules, then Wizardse simply doesn't print such a card
21:10:03 <zzo38> Nearly everything is sufficiently clear even without the reminder text though.
21:10:16 <b_jonas> There are lots of potential cards that you can't print for such reason.
21:10:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: only if you remember all the two hundred obscure old keyworded abilities and action words.
21:11:32 <zzo38> You should learn the rules for the keywords used in the set/cube/deck that you are playing, and reference it if you are unsure.
21:12:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, for decks I make I totally should learn the rules well, but I can't know in advance what decks other people make, and in the case of `random-card you can get almost any card
21:12:28 <zzo38> My own custom cards do not use reminder text for keywords (in some cases it won't even fit anyways).
21:13:09 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but the space for the IRC is even less than the space of the cards themself. You can ask for the card with the -r switch to read reminder text perhaps, and/or to use another command to look up a rule.
21:14:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, we could do that
21:15:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: feel free to modify `random-card and `card-by-name to omit the reminder text
21:15:34 <b_jonas> I'm lazy, I won't implement it now
21:15:44 <b_jonas> but if you implement it, it's fine
21:16:13 <zzo38> I won't implement it now either, but possibly later I would do so.
21:17:14 <b_jonas> But seriously, I hate Spreading Seas and Sea's Claim for not having the reminder text saying that the enchanted land loses abilities printed on it. And they're good cards and not easily replacable, so I can't just ignore those cards.
21:17:25 <zzo38> Some of my own custom cards have banding and bands with other (I like those keyword abilities), as well as new keywords, some of which are too complicated to fit in the reminder text, so mine would omit the reminder text.
21:17:43 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't care about that. Write on the cards or make proxies if you do care.
21:17:54 <b_jonas> (Sure, I can use such cards instead that don't use that crazy rule, and preserve the land types and abilities, but that's not the same.)
21:18:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's not so easy to write on the cards, you'd have to rewrite the whole text box probably
21:18:54 <zzo38> It is clear enough from the rules that it won't keep their abilities or other subtypes, so it is not need the extra text
21:19:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: and sure, banding is a lost cause, it has such complicated rules that the reminder would barely fit a card
21:19:47 <zzo38> Banding is good though. Reminder text is bad though.
21:19:50 <b_jonas> Even the oracle gatherer text is long, and it omits crucial details.
21:20:22 <b_jonas> it's just one you don't write on the cards. Just like the planeswalker rules. They weren't written on any of the planeswalkers, not even when they were introduced in Lorwyn.
21:20:29 <b_jonas> Or the two-faced card rules.
21:20:43 <zzo38> They shouldn't need to be; they are in the rule book
21:22:15 <b_jonas> Banding is a good idea itself, it's just that most of the banding cards they printed are just silly.
21:22:56 <zzo38> Well, I have made some of my own cards with banding which have other things as well, so new combinations are possible.
21:23:22 <b_jonas> Benalish Hero, the larger banding creatures (multiple elephants, a griffin, and other soldiers), and the Helm are fine; but the bands with others creatures, the tons of cards (in Legends I think) that REMOVE banding from other cards, and that land that gives legends "bands with other legends" are just silly
21:23:39 <b_jonas> It's sort of the same situation as with Great Wall
21:24:20 <zzo38> One thing some of my cards have is stuff like "target creature banded with" or "other creatures banded with".
21:25:49 <zzo38> (I have added a rule to define what that means.)
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21:38:35 <b_jonas> wow, I didn't know there were 11 cards printed with Leech creature type.
21:41:49 <shachaf> zzo38: By "now" do you mean "before now"?
21:46:40 <zzo38> O, yes, that is what I meant, sorry.
21:47:51 <zzo38> I wrote "irrelevant" instead by mistake
21:51:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not... zzo38 i was quoting a line from dwarf fortress as a joke, asre you sure it's what you meant to say?
21:52:33 <zzo38> I think so. Actually I am unsure that either "irrelevant" or "inevitable" is correct, but it seem closer to what I intended
21:55:46 <zzo38> I think that I am not a dwarf fortress
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21:59:05 <HackEgo> Annihilating Fire \ 1RR \ Instant \ Annihilating Fire deals 3 damage to target creature or player. If a creature dealt damage this way would die this turn, exile it instead. \ RTR-C
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22:01:47 <HackEgo> Hedron-Field Purists \ 2W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 0/3 \ Level up {2}{W} ({2}{W}: Put a level counter on this. Level up only as a sorcery.) \ {LEVEL 1-4} 1/4 If a source would deal damage to you or a creature you control, prevent 1 of that damage. \ {LEVEL 5+} 2/5 If a source would deal damage to you or a creature you control, prevent 2 of that
22:02:26 <b_jonas> that just barely doesn't fit the irc line.
22:03:05 <zzo38> If it is just barely, then it look like removing the reminder text would help. (But in some cases, card texts might not fit even if reminder text is stripped.)
22:03:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: yep, snipping the reminder text would definitely help here
22:03:49 <zzo38> Serra's Farmstead {WW} Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant land ;; Enchanted land has "{2}, {T}: Add {W} to your mana pool. You gain 2 life." ;; When ~ comes into play, you gain 1 life. ;; Echo {W}
22:04:34 <HackEgo> Epic Confrontation \ 1G \ Sorcery \ Target creature you control gets +1/+2 until end of turn. It fights target creature you don't control. (Each deals damage equal to its power to the other.) \ DTK-C
22:05:10 <HackEgo> Mirror Golem \ 6 \ Artifact Creature -- Golem \ 3/4 \ Imprint -- When Mirror Golem enters the battlefield, you may exile target card from a graveyard. \ Mirror Golem has protection from each of the exiled card's card types. (Artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal are card types.) \ MRD-U
22:05:33 <HackEgo> Grove of the Dreampods \ Plane -- Fabacin \ When you planeswalk to Grove of the Dreampods or at the beginning of your upkeep, reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a creature card. Put that card onto the battlefield and the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order. \ Whenever you roll CHAOS, return target creature c
22:06:38 <zzo38> Do you like Serra's Farmstead? Do you like the original Farmstead?
22:06:52 <HackEgo> Farmstead \ WWW \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant land \ Enchanted land has "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay {W}{W}. If you do, you gain 1 life." \ A-R, B-R, U-R, RV-R
22:07:17 <b_jonas> ah, an old white rare from revised. no wonder I didn't know it
22:07:59 <b_jonas> dunno, the original Farmstead seems very weak
22:08:04 <b_jonas> probably that's why I haven't heared of it
22:08:12 <zzo38> Yes I think it is weak
22:08:30 <b_jonas> Serra's Farmstead is stronger of course, but it sort of seems like too complicated
22:13:02 <b_jonas> Question. What would be the power level of a mono-colored bounce land? Eg. Large Atoll \ Land \ ~ etb tapped. \ When ~ etb, return a land you control to its owner's hand. \ {T}: Add {U}{U} to your mana pool.
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22:14:35 <b_jonas> I would play lands like that in some decks if they existed, but that doesn't really mean much.
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22:35:38 <b_jonas> Can you recommend a website like isup.me but that can act on https servers?
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22:47:29 <HackEgo> angband//Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon. When the valar finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
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22:58:13 <boily> All Hail the Fair and Just RNG!
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