2016-04-01: 00:00:04 I tried making a Sonic game in it but it was too slow 00:00:08 rdococ: A JS-ic interpreter for BASIC? 00:00:16 idk how it worked 00:00:18 hppavilion[1]: They're "markov sequences" all right, though it's not quite the most common implementation, where you have a bunch of text and then jump around; instead, it's just generating word by word from a variable-length n-gram model trained with https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN and stored in a I-think-it's-nifty-but-for-some-reason-haven't-much-seen-it-around data structure that I call ... 00:00:19 rdococ: I've been working to make a browser 00:00:22 but it was called Quite Basic 00:00:24 ... a reverse-context tree for lack of a better name. 00:00:26 It's like a word trie except so that if your model has, say, information about the contexts "baz bar foo", "quux bar foo" and "zuul foo", the trie has the form (foo (bar (baz [..]) (quux [..])) (zuul [...])). 00:00:29 hppavilion[1]: this is of course inspired by "halt and catch fire", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire 00:00:30 The idea being that it's easy to synthesize from -- you just descend the tree while reading backwards from the end of the text you've generated so far, and once you no longer find a leaf for the "next" (previous) word, you've arrived at the longest prefix in the variKN model, and can read its list of frequencies for following words. 00:00:35 (For extra credit, also account for backoff weights by having a probability for going back up one level.) 00:01:07 int-e: Ah, yes 00:01:39 If I had to choose a few esoteric assembly instructions, they would be, um 00:01:48 For some reason most things dealing with n-gram models I've seen have tended to put things in a trie, yes, but the "right way around". Which I guess is just fine for a fixed-length model, but much less convenient for a variable-length one. 00:01:53 idk 00:02:10 I'm in the mood to talk about numbers right now 00:02:21 rdococ: Have you heard of the number @? 00:02:32 the number what? 00:02:41 rdococ: The number @ 00:02:44 nope 00:02:44 rdococ: |@|=-1 00:02:49 ... 00:02:51 interesting 00:02:53 |n@|=-n 00:02:56 wow 00:03:13 And I had a lot of fun writing the Funge code. It's a language that's generally much easier to write than read. 00:03:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:03:41 hmm 00:03:43 imagine 00:03:53 rdococ: Go on 00:03:57 hppavilion[1]: Something that randomly chooses a register, and start executing the instruction at the specified address. An instruction that moves memory from a specified location to a random location somewhere else. An instruction that reads the specified memory address, and multiplies it by a random prime number. Other useless things. 00:03:59 # = -i@ 00:04:01 @ * @? 00:04:11 @ * @ = 1? 00:04:14 or different 00:04:14 rdococ: Undefined, as of yet 00:04:22 hmm 00:04:23 rdococ: No, but j^2 = 1 00:04:25 But j != 1 00:04:30 crazy 00:04:31 And k^2 = 0 00:04:35 But k != 0 00:04:42 |@*@| = 1? 00:04:43 That's the 2D real algebras 00:04:44 we can take any condition and turn it into a number... 00:04:47 zgrep: Probably not 00:04:50 zgrep: Ask Sgeo__ 00:04:59 hppavilion[1]: Why not? 00:05:10 sqrt(@)? 00:05:12 zgrep: Because @ isn't based on squaring, it's based on absing 00:05:18 |-@|? 00:05:22 rdococ: 1 00:05:32 crazy 00:05:33 rdococ: |-@|=1 00:05:45 rdococ: Not that crazy; I already said |n@| = -n 00:05:46 3@ / 2@ = ??? 00:05:49 3/2? 00:05:54 rdococ: Yes, definitely 00:05:57 true 00:05:59 rdococ: Sgeo__ invented @ 00:06:05 now I want to invent one 00:06:09 `? @ 00:06:19 ​@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour. 00:06:19 p. sure it wasn't Sgeo__ who invented @ 00:06:19 rdococ: Just don't make it absy, make it something new 00:06:21 $ 00:06:28 $ * 2 = 0.5 00:06:32 $ * x = 1/x 00:06:34 `misle/rn @/|@| = -1 00:06:43 Was lied to about «@» 00:06:45 but that means $ = 1... 00:06:48 huh 00:06:53 rdococ: That's actually... hm... 00:07:01 rdococ: I don't see how that behaves like numbers 00:07:18 rdococ: It has to behave reasonably like a number, but not quite, or else it's no fun 00:07:27 x$ = x/$ but $ =/= 1 00:07:37 true 00:07:44 what other numbers... 00:07:50 I mean functions 00:07:51 rdococ: @ is numeric, as are i, j, and k 00:08:03 rdococ: You can do the reverse of @'s creation process to 00:08:04 o 00:08:05 * zgrep still doesn't see why | 00:08:06 |$| = i 00:08:09 * zgrep still doesn't see why |-@| = 1... :( 00:08:14 nah 00:08:14 rdococ: $=-i@ 00:08:20 hmm 00:08:44 zgrep: Because |n*@| = -n, -@ = -1*a, and -(-1) = 1 00:08:52 Oh, wow. Heh. 00:08:59 hmmm 00:09:07 $ = cube root (-1) 00:09:10 nah 00:09:17 $ = fourth root (-1) 00:09:22 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:09:23 rdococ: That's a normal complex number 00:09:35 hmm 00:09:48 explore quaternions. 00:09:50 rdococ: @ was made by taking an unsatisfiable expression and making a new number that satisfies it. The reverse is taking an expression with no solution and making a solution 00:10:02 |@*@| = -@? 00:10:06 should I do the inverse/ 00:10:08 ?* 00:10:08 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 00:10:16 rdococ: η is the "Notta Constant" 00:10:16 or the one you did? 00:10:22 what's the notta constant? 00:10:28 zgrep: No, unless you have a reason 00:10:38 hmm 00:10:40 rdococ: xη = x/0 00:10:51 so basically infinity 00:10:59 hmm 00:11:02 rdococ: No, not infinity 00:11:03 hppavilion[1]: |n*@| = -n, so |@*@| = -@... What'd I do wrong? :P 00:11:08 rdococ: It's a new plane 00:11:13 zgrep: Ah, good point 00:11:14 a new plane? oh yeah 00:11:19 zgrep: NOW you're onto something 00:11:22 :) 00:11:26 hmmm 00:11:45 so I will make up an unsatisfiable expression 00:11:46 rdococ: You can also invent completely baffling things that look like numbers at first, but aren't quite 00:11:51 rdococ: Like the trigns 00:11:54 trigns? 00:11:58 rdococ: Make sure the expression is fairly simple 00:12:18 rdococ: It's like the bigns, AKA the reals. I'll leave you to extrapolate. 00:12:34 so it's a third sign? 00:12:43 plus, negative and trign? 00:12:47 rdococ: Yes, or more accurately, 2 new signs that replace - 00:12:53 oh, interesting 00:12:57 what are those signs called? 00:13:02 rdococ: $ ~ and & 00:13:10 And they have rules that I forgot 00:13:14 hmm 00:13:15 okay 00:13:22 interesting 00:13:41 hppavilion[1]: |n|^2 ≠ |n^2|, right? 00:13:45 0^x = 1 00:13:46 -!- yorick has joined. 00:13:55 my new number would be %, and 0^% = 1 00:13:57 rdococ: Here's one for you. 0/nρ = n 00:14:00 rdococ: Oh, that works too 00:14:03 rdococ: Look into that 00:14:05 rdococ: Isn't that 0? 00:14:09 rdococ: What's the general case 00:14:13 zgrep: No, that's undefined 00:14:17 hppa: isn't that another infinity? 00:14:23 the p thing 00:14:28 wait 00:14:39 hmm 00:14:41 hppavilion[1]: Oh, heh. Good point. 00:14:44 rdococ: Though I have a nagging feeling that it's related to η 00:14:57 zgrep: Yep. 00:15:01 0^% = 1, so 00:15:09 x^y% = ?? 00:15:16 zgrep: And |n|^2 usually is equal to |n^2| 00:15:31 rdococ: Obviously, 0^%n = n 00:15:39 okay 00:15:42 rdococ: You should probably give it a less mathematical name 00:15:46 Like "r" 00:15:50 lol r 00:15:56 Because @ works, but % is too mathy already 00:16:00 0^rx = ?? 00:16:05 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:16:05 rdococ: x 00:16:08 I was originally going for $ but way too mathy 00:16:10 |-n@| = -|n@| 00:16:16 I'll use r 00:16:27 x^ry = ? 00:16:29 zgrep: I believe so. Let me chack the algebra 00:16:50 hppavilion[1]: |n^2| ≠ |n|^2 if you've got an @ somewhere in there. 00:17:19 rdococ: The simplest solution is x^ry = y(x+1) = xy+y, but that's a bit strange 00:17:27 zgrep: excellent 00:17:37 -!- tromp has joined. 00:17:44 how'd you get that solution? 00:17:50 oh 00:17:52 I get it 00:18:01 |@^2| = |@*@| = -@, but |@|^2 = 1. So |n^2| ≠ |n|^2, right? 00:18:10 you moved the y down like I moved the x down when I was doing 0^rx 00:18:27 it's interesting though 00:18:43 rdococ: It's not very good (too functional, not numbery enough), but it's the best I can think of 00:18:56 hmm 00:19:00 zgrep: Apparently, yes! Good job! 00:19:01 let's think of a different simpler one then 00:19:04 what about 00:20:31 In fact, |ab| ≠ |a|*|b| when @'s involved. 00:20:40 rdococ: x : x≠x 00:20:48 weird idea 00:20:59 does x rdococ: Maybe, who knows? 00:21:21 rdococ: I guess we shouldn't use ≠, we should use !<= 00:21:37 ԑ 00:21:45 ԑ =/= ԑ 00:21:47 nah 00:21:50 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:21:50 looks like an infinitesimal 00:21:54 rdococ: x : x≰x 00:22:02 so x>x? 00:22:07 rdococ: Precisely 00:22:15 Order-theoretical i 00:22:16 let's call it ᴓ 00:22:20 ᴓ>ᴓ 00:22:24 rdococ: neoletters doesn't include that symbol 00:22:29 neoletters? 00:22:35 `unidecode ᴓ 00:22:38 ​[U+1D13 LATIN SMALL LETTER SIDEWAYS O WITH STROKE] 00:22:58 rdococ: Oh! My last name has that letter! 00:23:01 Kind of! 00:23:09 rdococ: Wait, it's a sideways version 00:23:12 but flipped horizontally 00:23:40 does ξ show up? 00:23:46 rdococ: Yes 00:23:54 so ξ > ξ 00:24:07 xξ > xξ? 00:24:19 rdococ: Obviously 00:24:26 what about xξ and yξ for different x and y? 00:25:02 rdococ: How does that normally work again? 00:25:17 well, 3 > 2 and 2 < 3, and 3 = 3 00:25:29 does ξ = ξ + x for any particular x? 00:26:08 ξ > ξ, and 3ξ = 4ξ? 00:26:13 or 3ξ > 4ξ? 00:26:46 What is ξ, in this case? 00:26:55 ξ > ξ 00:27:05 Ahah. So then ξ < ξ as well. 00:27:19 nope, that rule was broken 00:27:24 How? 00:27:29 hppa's idea 00:27:44 rdococ: Don't blame me! 00:27:58 so does x < ξ for any x? 00:28:13 But if ξ > ξ... why isn't ξ < ξ? 00:28:21 ask hppa 00:28:26 hppavilion[1]: This is me asking you. 00:28:27 my original idea was just ξ =/= ξ 00:28:56 rdococ: I think that was /my/ idea 00:29:09 hppavilion[1]: rdococ: x : x≰x 00:29:13 rdococ: x : x≠x 00:29:14 really now 00:29:24 Need I break out the logs? 00:29:28 oh 00:29:37 but ξ > ξwas also yours 00:30:09 -!- tromp has joined. 00:30:19 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 00:31:06 |@*@*@| = -@*@... ||@*@*@|| = @, then? 00:31:23 Where that's [[@*@*@]] not, []@*@*@[]. :P 00:31:51 @@ 00:32:01 @something 00:32:01 Unknown command, try @list 00:32:08 @1 00:32:08 Say again? 00:32:11 @2 00:32:11 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 00:32:14 @@ 00:32:22 @poke lambdabot 00:32:22 Maybe you meant: vote more 00:32:28 No, I don't want to vote more. 00:32:29 @botsnack 00:32:29 :) 00:33:35 @|@| = -@... and |@*@| = -@... uh... :/ 00:33:36 Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "..." 00:34:19 Ω > n for any finite n, but Ω < infinity? so Ω is the largest finite number 00:34:42 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:34:43 @( 00:34:44 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 00:34:46 @) 00:34:46 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 00:34:51 @[ 00:34:51 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 00:34:54 @{ 00:34:54 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 00:34:56 @` 00:34:56 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 00:35:00 So what's ∞ - Ω? 00:35:04 1 00:35:11 Ω = ∞ - 1? 00:35:14 yes 00:35:15 so the lambdie answers to most about anything, except @. very peculiar. 00:35:28 v 00:35:36 boily: I'm assuming that @'s the prefix, whatever comes after that's considered the command. But just @ is ignored. 00:36:00 @ 00:36:06 > 00:36:09 > 00:36:10 : not an expression: ‘’ 00:36:11 @ 00:36:21 Huh. "@ " doesn't trigger, but "> " does. 00:36:48 or what about 00:36:52 xΩ = 1/x 00:37:03 @@@ 00:37:10 @@@@something 00:37:25 rdococ: Becomes weird, because then Ω = x^-2 00:37:27 :P 00:37:42 Though I guess it wouldn't be number, just an operation. 00:37:51 what about 00:37:52 four signs 00:38:05 * zgrep has no clue what zgrep is talking about... 00:38:07 +3 plus x2 = +6 00:38:35 +x + *y = x*y 00:39:08 and x + /y = x/y 00:39:39 This look simple: -0 [something] n = 0 [something] (-1 * n). 00:39:49 And useless. 00:39:57 rdococ: I... don't exactly get what that is... 00:40:13 rdococ: But then Ω > Ω 00:40:33 hppa: I was discussing another idea for a number 00:40:43 rdococ: I know 00:41:44 what about 00:41:45 Ʊ 00:42:47 um 00:43:09 How how did you get an upside-down omega. o.o 00:43:18 `unidecode Ʊ 00:43:21 ​[U+01B1 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER UPSILON] 00:43:27 upsilon. Neat! :D 00:43:59 what about Ψ 00:45:01 Technically, 🐈 could work as a great name too. It would also help annoy others who want to type about it. :P 00:45:04 xΨ + y(1-Ψ) = random probability of being either x or y 00:45:14 what symbol is that? it doesn't showu p on mine 00:45:20 It's a unicode cat. 00:45:46 wow 00:46:03 Ψ = random probability of being either 0 or 1 00:46:07 rdococ: Ψ: Doing any math involving Ψ comes at the expense of your sanity 00:46:16 Example problem: 00:46:19 x = Ψ+1 00:46:19 because it is random and unpredictable 00:46:23 x-1 = Ψ 00:46:29 Ψ+1 = random probability of being either 1 or 2 00:46:30 (algebra) 00:46:38 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 00:46:42 (def. of Ψ) 00:47:06 -!- tromp has joined. 00:47:06 doing any math with x comes at the expense of your sanity... 00:47:16 does that mean I have no sanity? 00:47:18 s/with x.*your // 00:47:31 Oh, wait, I cut out too many words. Damn it. 00:47:37 s/with x // 00:47:38 zgrep: Try ms/ 00:47:38 There. 00:47:41 lol 00:47:51 zgrep: ms/// is for fixing s/// expressions 00:48:21 ms/s/with x.*your///s/with x// 00:48:31 hppavilion[1]: Really? I usually either ignore the first regex I made, fix the resulting string as if the regexes were applied in a row, or I write a regex to fix the regex as a regular regex. 00:49:01 so Ψ = 0, no wait it's 1, 0, 1, 0 wait what is it 00:49:04 A regular regex expression! :P 00:49:05 zgrep: new processors for an architecture may support additional features that their predecessors did not in a backwards-incompatible way, but when people make new architectures like ARM, they aren't backwards-compatile with other architectures 00:49:25 coppro: True. 00:49:35 zgrep: Yes, that's ms 00:49:39 zgrep: That last one 00:49:56 hppavilion[1]: It doesn't end up calling our evil Microsoft overlords? 00:49:57 are there irregular expressions? 00:50:06 zgrep: Nope 00:50:11 boily: Yes hth 00:50:14 hppavilion[1]: Oh, okay. Good. 00:50:23 boily: alksfdjaoisdf matches "walrus", but not "oerjan" 00:50:39 It does match "oerjans", though. 00:50:53 But not organs. 00:50:57 zgrep: Correct, but not "oerjan's" 00:51:19 Though alksfdjaoisde would match all of the above. 00:51:27 rdococ: Maybe we should work on that hacking game 00:52:16 do we have to 00:52:17 You can say "it's not rocket surgery" as an amusing combination of the two idioms, but saying "it's not brain science" works much less well. 00:52:40 @ask oerjan do you feel matched? 00:52:41 Consider it noted. 00:53:48 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:54:13 -!- MDude has joined. 00:54:16 what about 00:54:17 x 00:54:29 χ 00:54:43 fizzie: Between a rock and a pickle? :P 00:55:03 3χ / (χ/2) = 6 00:55:07 rdococ: Yes, we have to :P 00:55:29 rdococ: Err... yes. 00:56:00 sure, all numbers satisfy that property, but 00:56:04 χ is a wildcard 00:56:12 χ is algebra without algebra 00:56:22 rdococ: How is it a wildcard? 00:56:57 -!- tromp has quit. 00:56:59 hppa: it is meant for substitution 00:57:00 rdococ: Is it a number that satisfies all properties the reals satisfy (and no others), but that isn't a real? 00:57:07 rdococ: So it's just a variable? 00:57:13 not exactly 00:57:14 rdococ: You're trying to turn math into C macros? D: 00:57:17 rdococ: These numbers are boring me. 00:57:25 ugh 00:57:25 fine 00:57:55 H4X1N470R-MP 00:58:03 Θx = sin(x) 00:58:32 rdococ: That's a function again 00:58:49 hmm 00:58:53 rdococ: There's a difference between weird numbers and weird function call syntax 00:59:12 0^0 = μ 00:59:39 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 01:00:51 what about that 01:01:53 -!- tromp has joined. 01:02:32 should I just google a random function, find a spot where the function doesn't havw a value, and make a spot there? 01:04:19 what about 01:04:29 Ϝ + 1 = Ϝ 01:04:41 ∞ 01:04:52 Ϝ < n for all n 01:05:03 -∞ 01:05:19 uh 01:05:24 (although not completely, but almost) 01:05:51 I wonder if it's possible to somehow teach mathematica what @ is... 01:05:54 s/mathe/Mathe/ 01:06:04 try it 01:06:07 |@| = -1 01:06:14 what about 01:06:52 β = x for any x 01:06:53 Expression cannot begin with "Abs[@]=-1". :P 01:07:16 try a different symbol like x 01:08:03 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 01:08:08 I'm wondering, how would I begin to figure out what |@+k| would be... 01:08:28 -!- mihow has joined. 01:08:40 well, if |x@| = -x@ 01:08:49 then |@+k| = -@ - k 01:09:01 Why? 01:09:06 no wait 01:09:28 |@+k| = |@| + |k| = -@ + |k| 01:09:37 |a| + |b| ≠ |a + b| 01:10:23 why is |@| = -@, i thought it'd be -1 01:10:35 oh yeah 01:10:36 |@| = -1 indeed. 01:10:38 |@| = -1 01:10:40 `tomfoolery @ 01:10:43 ​|@| = -1 01:10:48 |k@| = -k 01:11:05 |@+k| = -@ + k? 01:11:22 `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n 01:11:26 Was lied to about «@» 01:11:46 `tomfoolery random number 01:11:55 `tomfoolery random 01:12:00 what is |-@|? is it |-1@| = 1? 01:12:03 Eh, I guess that's no longer there. 01:12:04 yeah 01:12:12 |-@| = 1 01:12:16 8901 01:12:17 I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking. 01:12:27 Oh, it worked, just slowly. 01:12:34 `tomfoolery random number 01:12:36 6903 01:12:39 :D 01:12:52 so, what is |@+k|? 01:13:19 I would assume the k part gets absed 01:13:40 if I had my way, |-@| = -1 01:13:50 wait no 01:13:54 then @ = -1 01:13:56 no 01:14:03 not that 01:14:28 Ψ is far more interesting 01:14:37 `tomfoolery random number 01:14:40 17204 01:14:50 that's Ψ*100000 01:15:09 no wait 01:15:09 `cat tmflry/random number 01:15:10 it's not 01:15:11 echo $RANDOM 01:15:33 uh 01:15:34 ugh 01:16:19 rdococ: I'm back 01:16:32 myname: |@+k|? = 19 01:16:39 uh? 01:16:39 s/19/42/ 01:16:48 42 01:16:50 that would make @ pretty pointless 01:17:00 hppavilion[1]: Heheh. 01:17:14 Err... how did you mistype 42 as 19? 01:17:16 it already is useless 01:17:19 myname: No, it makes ? pretty pointless 01:17:19 sorta 01:17:20 idk 01:17:21 n? = 42 01:17:26 :D 01:17:30 zgrep: I changed my mind 01:17:36 "The answer to life, the universe, and everything"? = 42 :P 01:17:44 zgrep: Exactly 01:17:57 (?) :: a -> Int 01:18:35 that's const 01:18:43 (?) (+5) (-5) = 42? 01:18:48 rdococ: When you said "Ψ is far more interesting", what does Ψ equal? 01:18:55 I did? 01:18:57 myname: It's an example of a const 01:19:06 rdococ: you did 01:19:22 Ψ = a superposition of 0 and 1 01:19:37 rdococ: A superposition? Are you sure it isn't just 0 or 1 at random? 01:19:45 rdococ: OOH! OOH! QUANTUM MATH! 01:19:47 okay it's 0 or 1 at random 01:19:52 or superposition 01:19:59 Ψ = 0 or 1 01:20:00 |@|*|@| = 1... |@*@| = -@. <-- Why does this have to ruin everything. :( 01:20:07 rdococ: math : Computer math :: Quantum math : Quantum computer math 01:20:21 zgrep: It doesn't, it just breaks one property 01:20:22 omg 01:20:33 rdococ: :) 01:20:34 -!- jaboja has joined. 01:20:34 hppavilion[1]: But it ruins ease of use. :P 01:20:43 zgrep: you made mathematica learn @?!!! 01:20:44 zgrep: Welcome to #esoteric 01:20:49 zgrep: because @ is atupid 01:20:55 I feel welcome here. 01:20:58 myname is going to hell 01:21:02 myname: It's not tupid? Okay. 01:21:11 zgrep: You are, but myname isn't any more 01:21:14 no, it's atupid 01:21:19 it breaks even Z 01:21:23 rdococ: Making it not tupid 01:21:33 rdococ: a- is a prefix for "not" 01:21:40 hppa: it is xtupid for any x 01:21:50 rdococ: Type my full nick, please 01:22:00 rdococ: I don't get alerted if you don't 01:22:05 rdococ: Use tab-complete 01:22:20 myname: How does it break Z? 01:22:31 hppavilion[1]: k 01:22:32 see zgrep's example 01:22:57 the existence of @ would make 1 = -1 01:23:18 "hppa" makes me want to pronounce it "хпавилион". :P 01:23:18 really? 01:23:24 which makes 2 equal to either 2, -2 or 0 01:23:34 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 01:23:40 x = -x and x =/= 0 01:23:51 rdococ: β looked good 01:24:32 -!- mihow has joined. 01:24:43 remind me what it was 01:24:51 -!- mihow has quit (Client Quit). 01:25:17 rdococ: Nevermind, β is stupid 01:25:22 a=β, b=β, a!=b 01:25:43 hppavilion[1]: but 1 = -1 is fine? 01:25:58 myname: Where is 1 = -1? 01:25:59 myname: I'm assuming that they consider |a|*|b| ≠ |a*b| to be fine. 01:26:06 myname: Oh 01:26:28 zgrep: Actually, that is true, I think 01:26:30 Let me check 01:26:44 zgrep: it will most likely brealk at |@+k| nontheless 01:26:47 Well, for all reals, |a|*|b| = |a*b|, I think. 01:26:58 zgrep: Not for the complexes though 01:26:59 myname: Well, if k = @, then |@+@| = -2 :P 01:27:11 hppavilion[1]: Probably something like that. 01:27:20 |i| = 1, |1| = 1, |1+i| = sqrt(2) but |1|+|i|=2 01:27:23 Wait, shit 01:27:26 You were doing * 01:27:36 |i| = 1? 01:27:43 zgrep: Yeah. You didn't know that? 01:27:47 I do now. :D 01:27:52 ||@|| = 1 01:28:10 that depends on what norm you are using 01:28:11 Usually, |x| = ||x||, but not when dealing with sgeoids 01:28:21 hppavilion[1]: Wait, but why is |i| = 1? 01:28:25 myname: What norm? 01:28:33 zgrep: Because the distance between i and 0 is 1. 01:28:39 Good point! :D 01:28:43 |i| could also be i 01:28:47 |a+bi| = sqrt(a^2+b^2) 01:28:50 myname: Since when? 01:29:01 @ introduces negative distances... does that simply mean going backwards in time? :P 01:29:05 because the dostance between i and 0 is i 01:29:25 myname: No, it's 1 01:29:28 myname: It's clearly 1 01:29:29 what about a number j which relates to hyperbolic trig? 01:29:45 hppavilion[1]: that depends 01:29:46 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:30:24 |a + bi| = |a| + |b| is as valid as |a + bi| = sqrt(a^2 + b^2) 01:30:34 both of them are well defined 01:31:35 no, the complex plane is like an x/y plane - the distance from i to 0 is 1 01:31:59 and from 1+i to 0 is sqrt(2) 01:32:36 as long as it follows some rules, anything is fine really 01:32:58 but those are the rules of the complex system 01:33:18 like, |x| = 0 => x = 0 01:33:40 |a| + |b| >= |a+b| 01:34:18 but I have the idea of a hyperbolic complex plane where e^jx = sin(x) + icosh(x) 01:34:31 sinh* 01:34:39 j* 01:34:45 jcosh* 01:39:06 -|@| = |i|. Huh. 01:39:34 |i| = 1 01:39:40 |@| = -1 01:39:47 -|@| = 1 01:39:48 that's what he said 01:40:24 |3| = |3| 01:41:14 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SELECTION CHICKEN). 01:41:14 |k@| ≠ |k||@|... argh! If only this weren't true, then things with @ would be much easier to think about. 01:41:48 -!- jaboja has joined. 01:41:57 zgrep: |k@| = k|@| 01:42:03 But that's not very good 01:42:15 hppavilion[1]: True... 01:42:17 that would break math for k = @ 01:42:27 Would it? 01:42:33 I don't see it breaking math for k = @... 01:42:34 you posted it 01:42:42 Well, what I wrote, yes. Not what hppavilion[1] wrote. 01:43:02 so |@@| is -@? 01:43:27 Yeap. 01:43:32 and |-3@| would be 3? 01:43:35 Yeppers. 01:43:41 Because |n@| = -n 01:43:44 omg that actually make sense 01:44:14 |n@| = -(|n|@/@) 01:44:27 @.@ 01:44:27 Maybe you meant: @ . 01:44:33 @_@ 01:45:11 what about |@+k| 01:46:00 rdococ: Wat? 01:46:04 myname: Exactly. :/ 01:47:56 asume k = @, that would make |@+k| = -2 01:48:16 |@+k| = -k/@ + -1? 01:48:20 k = -@ would make it 0 01:48:51 |k/@| 01:49:04 what about 1/@ 01:49:26 k = n@ -> |@+k| = -(n+1) 01:50:24 k = -n@ -> |@+k| = -n+1 01:51:50 k = n -> |@+k| = -1 - ((n/@)+1)...? 01:52:46 n = @ -> |@+n| = -1 - ((n/@)+1) -> -3...? 01:53:32 k = n@ -> |@+k| = -(n+1) 01:53:33 k = -(n+2)k -> |@+k| = -(n+2)+1 = -(n+1) 01:53:37 now plug in n = 1/@ 01:54:03 so |@ + k| = |@ - k + 2| 01:54:09 k = (1/@)@ -> |@+k| = -((1/@)+1) 01:55:12 |@+x| = -1/@ - 1 01:55:32 |@+x| = -x/@ - 1 01:55:54 nowait 01:56:17 k = @; |@+k| = -2 01:57:22 <\oren\> The enigma machine had a keyboard that was qwertzuio asdfghjk pyxcvbnml 01:58:56 |x@| = -x 01:59:19 now say x = (@+x)/@ 01:59:28 |x| = |-x| -> |k + @| = |k - 2 - @| -> @ = -2 - @ -> 2@ = -2 -> @ = -1 01:59:36 y* 01:59:52 rdococ: sounds wrong 02:00:01 |x@| = -x 02:00:13 now say x = 1 + y/@ 02:00:20 how should (a+b)/b = a? 02:00:32 that would make a + b = a * b 02:01:09 \oren\: Intriguing. 02:01:09 a = (b+c)/b? 02:01:19 I meant y there 02:01:47 so a = 1 + c/b? 02:02:02 yes 02:02:36 what are you trying to do 02:02:47 Oh, that's interesting. 02:03:13 |n@|=-n; n=(@+x)/@; |@+x| = -(@+x)/@... huh. 02:04:04 i don't quite get where these division rules came from 02:04:24 Are you saying I'm assuming @/@ = 1? 02:04:54 i don't get what made you assume n = (@+x)/@ 02:05:51 Who cares, it works? 02:06:04 how so 02:06:06 And it was rdococ that made me assume. :P 02:06:14 It figures out what |@+k| is. 02:06:25 solve for k = @ 02:06:29 So we want to know |@ + x|. 02:06:35 Hm. Let's try. 02:06:38 Let's divide both sides by @. |(1 + x/@)@| 02:06:39 ah 02:06:45 Apply the rule. -(1 + x/@) 02:06:57 Simplify. -1 - x/@ Assuming my knowledge of parentheses are correct. 02:07:00 -1-1 = -2 :D 02:07:15 It works, of coures. :) 02:07:17 s/res/rse/ 02:07:22 Yay 02:07:24 Or, wait... does it? 02:07:30 Yeah, probably. 02:07:33 Yep, it works. 02:08:07 looks reasonable 02:08:24 i am not sure if that somehow breaks my contradiction above 02:08:28 I've known that a + b = (1 + b/a)a for ages now. 02:08:30 `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -(@+k)/@ 02:08:35 Was lied to about «@» 02:09:07 myname: Hm, which contradiction? 02:09:11 a + b = (a/a + b/a)a = (1 + b/a)a 02:09:22 I dunno if it applies to @, but I don't see why otherwise. 02:09:43 |x| = |-x| -> |k + @| = |k - 2 - @| -> @ = -2 - @ -> 2@ = -2 -> @ = -1 02:09:47 that one 02:09:54 Why does |k + @| = |k - 2 - @|? 02:09:59 Or are we assuming that? 02:10:32 because |k + @| = |-(k + 2) + @| 02:10:43 Err... why? 02:11:05 |5 + @| = |-7 + @|... nope, does not make sense, unless that's why it's contradictory 02:12:03 |5 + @| = -1 - 5/@, meanwhile |-7 + @| = -1 + 7/@. One's less than -1, and the other's more. That's assuming @ > 0. 02:12:09 `tomfoolery @ 02:12:10 ​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -(@+k)/@ 02:12:12 because |k + @| = -(n + 1) for k = n@ and |-(k+2) + @| = -(k+2) + 1 02:12:25 k = -n 02:12:26 -!- Lyka has left. 02:12:36 Err, no, I'm wrong, sorry. 02:13:05 |5@ + @| = |-7@ + @| 02:13:11 So the assumption is that k = n@..., then |k + @| = |n@ + @| = |(n+1)@| = -n-1 02:13:26 wait, no 02:13:50 so wait, |k + @| = -(k/@ + 1), right? that follows what I got, then |-(k+2)+@| = -(k+2) + 1...wait, what? 02:13:54 6 ≠ -6 :P 02:14:17 |5@ + @| ≠ |-7@ + @| because |a@| ≠ |a||@| 02:15:04 but |-n@ + @| = -n + 1 02:15:10 No. 02:15:11 -n - 1 02:15:14 `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@ 02:15:17 Err.. wait. 02:15:18 Crap. 02:15:25 Was lied to about «@» 02:15:28 `tomfoolery @ 02:15:29 ​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@ 02:15:35 I didn't get your version so I put my own 02:15:45 |-n@ + @| = |(1-n)@| = n-1 02:15:51 ^ myname 02:16:12 makes sense 02:16:17 indeed 02:16:23 hmm 02:16:24 rdococ: Same thing. :P 02:16:54 (that's with regards to |@+k|) 02:17:44 interesting 02:20:33 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:21:04 rdococ: H444444444444444XXX11111N444444770000000000R 02:21:08 -!- mihow has joined. 02:23:59 -!- p34k has quit. 02:24:57 ^myname 02:25:09 I think it'd look nicer if rephrased: |@-k| = k/@ - 1 :P 02:25:14 Are you there fungot? It's me, hppavilion[1] 02:25:15 hppavilion[1]: not having guarantees for these things is sensible. thread-terminate! brings nothing but trouble...? or am i screwing something up. b. 02:25:40 pretty good answer 02:27:13 So what'd |1/@| be... 02:27:53 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 02:27:56 for that we have to know what |@^k| is 02:28:09 Not necessarily. 02:28:36 well, but we want it nontheless 02:28:43 Inverse isn't exactly the same thing as power, not completely/exactly. As far as I know. 02:29:04 |@*@| = -@ 02:29:12 Hm... |@| = -1, |@@| = -@, |@@@| = -@@, etc. 02:29:35 |@^k| = -(@^k-1) 02:29:55 |@^-1| = -(@^-2) 02:29:55 Please put some parens there. :P 02:30:06 -(@^(k-1)) 02:30:10 Indeedy. :) 02:31:02 so, |1/@| is -1/(@@)? 02:31:14 Hm... 02:31:23 |1/0| = -1/(@@) 02:31:28 @* 02:31:28 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 02:31:31 s/0/@ 02:32:58 Seems like that's it. 02:35:00 `tomfoolery @ 02:35:01 ​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@ 02:35:32 `misle/rn @/​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1)) 02:35:35 Was lied to about «@» 02:35:57 x^@ 02:36:01 Oooh, yes... 02:36:32 that's a taugh one 02:38:10 we may ignore it :D 02:38:16 :/ 02:38:42 like, |x^@| could be x^@ 02:39:15 |@^@| = -(@^(@-1)) 02:39:17 i don't see how thatwould break anything since that exists für even exponents 02:39:32 why that 02:39:43 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:39:56 |@^@| also is a nice emoticon 02:39:58 |x@^y| 02:41:35 |x@^y| = x|@^y| = -x@^(y-1)? 02:41:53 Do you mean x(@^y) or (x@)^y? 02:42:10 (x@)^y 02:42:53 (x^y)(@^y) 02:44:02 |@^0| = -(@^(-1)) 02:44:48 Technically... 02:45:25 |((k^@)/@)@| = |k^@| = -((k^@)/@) 02:46:28 k^@ = -@|k^@| 02:47:17 the @^0 is bad 02:47:33 is there any way tp make it be 1? 02:48:27 |ab@| = a|b@|, right? 02:48:42 i guess 02:50:06 myname: I guess that |@^0| simply isn't 1... 02:51:05 myname: It works out: |@^1| = -(@^0), so @^0 = -|@^1| = -|@| = 1 02:51:25 what version? 02:51:33 |@^q| = -(@^(q-1)), q = 1 02:52:16 ah 02:53:32 but i donjt like how |@^0| != |1| 02:53:36 but that is fine 02:53:42 Let's assume that it is... 02:53:43 But 1 = |1|... and -(@^(-1)) = |@^0|... so -1 = @^(-1)... 02:53:49 |0^0| isn't 1 either 02:54:26 So 1/@ = -1? 02:54:31 That doesn't work, does it? 02:55:15 No, it doesn't. 02:55:22 Because @ ≠ -1, right... 02:55:36 Where did I mess u. 02:55:37 s/u/up/ 02:55:49 @^0 simply isn't 1 02:55:50 Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? . 02:56:12 myname: No, @^0 seems to be 1... just |@^0| doesn't seem to be 1... :( 02:56:23 ...unless @^0 isn't 1, because @^1 ≠ 1... 02:56:24 fine, too 02:56:37 How's that fine, though... |1| ≠ 1, then? 02:56:55 right 02:57:05 so @^0 must not be 1 02:57:31 `tomfoolery 02:57:32 `tomfoolery @ 02:57:37 but that may imply @^1 is not @ 02:57:42 I have nothing to tell you. 02:57:42 ​​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1)) 02:57:59 |@^1| = -(@^(-2))... 02:59:05 well, but as you said, |@^1| = -(@^0) 02:59:32 if @^1 were @, that would mean @^0 is 1 02:59:44 -!- tromp has joined. 03:00:22 so we either have to define |@^x| somehow else or we have to say that @^0 is not 1 and @^1 is not @ 03:00:28 Whoops, 03:00:29 s/,/./ 03:00:32 i don't like the second part, though 03:00:58 Yeah... 03:01:21 so the exponential rule is wrong 03:01:39 I mean, it works out that @^0 = 1 and @^1 = 1, they work together... but they end up giving @ a wrong value... 03:02:00 I guess... 03:02:02 we may do something like ^(sqrt(x)) to work around these sneaky 0 and 1 edge cases 03:04:30 a^b = a*a*a... b times, right? That's the definition we're going with? 03:04:34 Or something else. 03:04:36 wait, how did your 1/@ worked above 03:05:06 why is -1 = @^(-1) 03:05:18 I'm not sure what I did above... I've lost my train(s) of thought. 03:05:45 https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/f/8/7f80d3b6fbe1d4e35eca5022242872bf.png <-- that's the definition we're going with, right? 03:06:01 -1 = |@| = |@^1| = -(@^0) 03:06:07 yeah 03:06:16 Indeed... 03:07:26 i do think you made an error above but i am quite unsure 03:07:38 I probably made a few errors above. 03:07:42 |@^k| = @^(k-1) * |@|, right? 03:08:10 Simply because of the fact that |a@| = a|@| 03:08:34 So |@^k| = -(@^(k-1)) 03:08:52 If @^0 = 1, then 1 = |@^0| = -(@^(-1))... 03:09:12 aha! 03:09:34 1 = -(1/@)... that means 1/@ = -1...??? 03:10:18 that's... weird - I heard you talking about it above but never stopped to read 03:10:48 ah 03:10:50 If @^1 = @, then -1 = |@^1| = -(@^0), then 1 = @^0... 03:11:10 -1 = (1/@)... 03:11:18 @^0 = 1, @^-1 = -1, and @^1 = @. 03:11:18 Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? . 03:11:43 I guess 1/-1 has two solutions now 03:12:03 @ and -1? 03:12:08 may work out 03:12:21 So how did I show that @ is a number... 03:12:35 but does this imply it for any division? 03:12:51 like, is 1/-2 equal to some @ thing? 03:13:19 |@^(-2)| = -(@^(-3))... 03:13:32 1/-2 = -1/2 or (1/2)@ 03:13:35 I would say 03:13:47 |@^-1| = |-1| = 1... so -(@^(-2)) = 1? 03:14:03 that would make -1 may or may not be @ 03:14:24 (@*@) = -1 03:14:25 ? 03:14:25 @^-2 = -1? 03:14:25 Unknown command, try @list 03:14:38 |@*@| = 1?!?!?!?! 03:14:44 no 03:14:51 |@@| = -@ 03:15:06 but zgrep said 03:15:24 If @^-2 = -1, then -1*(@^2) = 1, then @^2 = -1... D: 03:15:48 ...then that means sqrt(-1) = @ and @ = i... 03:15:58 but that's ludicrous 03:16:02 |i| = 1, though. 03:16:05 @ is ludicrous. 03:16:23 indeed, bordering on ridiculous 03:16:31 but interesting enough to keep around 03:16:34 Something weird is going on here with powers... :( 03:17:03 @^-1 is -1, right? 03:17:03 Unknown command, try @list 03:17:07 but that would mean |i| = -1 03:17:27 rdococ: ot depends on how you calculate 03:17:31 but yeah 03:17:58 if we assume that @^-1 = -1, then (@^-1)^-1 = -1 too, so @^-2 = -1... 03:18:03 it acts a lot like -1 03:18:05 -!- earendel has joined. 03:18:18 if my maths is right 03:18:38 I'm going to take a break from @ for now. 03:18:56 hmm 03:19:24 I think the problem lies in the absolute value function of x@ 03:19:25 What if we just say that |n@| = n|@| instead of -1... 03:19:37 Err, instead of -n. 03:19:49 since f(x) = |x@| doesn't swap slopes at the origin 03:20:18 I mean, |x@| = -x, but |x| = x if x >= 0, and -x otherwise 03:20:23 no such conditional in the @ 03:20:24 rdococ: i don't get ypur (@^-1)^-1 = -1 03:20:33 Something makes me think this is simply a problem of choosing absolute value, something related to distances... 03:20:37 @^-1 = -1 03:20:37 Unknown command, try @list 03:20:48 -1^-1 = 1/-1 = -1 03:20:52 or @ 03:21:01 if we say @^-2 = @ 03:21:10 then we complicate things a lot 03:21:19 ah, i see 03:22:19 we may need to start from stratch 03:22:28 I'm going to make a small adjustment to @'s behaviour, and call the new one ©. 03:22:35 |x|-|x| = -2x? 03:22:50 |x©| = -|x| 03:22:55 so |-©| = -1 03:22:55 |x|-|x| = 0 03:23:23 rdococ: Hm. 03:23:28 if we try © instead of @, do you think it will turn out with less contradictions? 03:23:30 is @ something in particulatr already? 03:23:41 `tomfoolery @ 03:23:43 ​​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1)) 03:23:47 © is different in that |-©| < 0 03:23:48 thanks 03:23:53 while |-@| > 0 03:24:01 Every time I see @ I think ehird. Alas. 03:24:21 |©| = -1? 03:24:28 yep 03:24:44 |©+k| = -1 - k/©, there's no change there, infact it works with any variable or constant 03:24:46 rdococ: which is also true for @ 03:25:01 but |-©| = -1 where |-@| = 1 03:25:04 ah 03:25:06 |n©| = -|n|... hm... 03:25:44 that might work 03:25:53 |©©| = -|©| = 1... interesting, difference already - it almost looks recursive 03:25:56 but i am way to lazy to type a copyright symbol 03:26:02 just put c instead 03:26:04 |n©| = -|n|, |((©+n)/©)©| = |©+n| = -|((©+n)/©)| 03:26:13 whut 03:26:23 Different n's, sorry. 03:27:01 we might as well call it @ and remove out old draft 03:27:13 nah, incase © runs into problems too 03:27:20 -|((©+n)/©)| = -|1 + n/©|... I don't see how this is still the same as @? 03:27:48 true 03:27:58 :) 03:28:00 hmm 03:28:07 not the same, but we basically made all the rules up from a wrong first definition 03:28:25 we might as well change that definition and start over still calling it @ 03:29:07 I don't see how to unwrap it from the absolute value, though, which could be what makes it work, but still... 03:29:15 ...sort-of sad. :( 03:29:15 |© + k| = |(1 + k/©)/©|. Using the rule where |n©| = -|n|, we get -|1 + k/©| 03:29:21 or choose some symbol that's on an ordinary keyboard 03:29:42 © looks like @ 03:29:47 invariance of @ 03:30:04 so 03:30:39 myname: Use the all-mighty compose key! :P 03:30:51 |n©| = -|n|; |© + n| = -|1 + n/©|; |©^n|? 03:30:55 that's a pain in the ass on a software keyboard 03:31:16 myname: Oh... software keyboard? Those have © somewhere, but yeah, it's annoying to get to usually. 03:31:26 Try clicking and holding on 'c' or 'g'? 03:31:42 Or use c. Or `. Or any symbol, really. :P 03:31:47 i have it in a seperate menu on , 03:32:17 |©^n| = -|©^(n-1)| 03:32:19 |©^n| = -|©^(n-1)| I thknk. 03:32:22 s/knk/ink/ 03:32:30 ∆ is also an option 03:32:41 But ∆ is taken for small changes. 03:32:43 |©^1| = -|©^0| = -1 03:32:47 and while we are at it, let's define the ― operation 03:33:00 -? Or –? Or —? 03:33:11 the last 03:33:13 |©^2| = -|©^1| = |©^0| = 1 03:33:24 indeed, recursive 03:33:29 ʒ 03:33:37 How about £. :P 03:33:47 ¸ 03:33:52 & 03:33:56 works nice for multiplication 03:34:03 This is a nice symbol for a variable, right: ‰ ? :P 03:34:11 maybe & 03:34:30 ¡ 03:34:49 -5 = |5©|... hm... 03:35:11 |©^x| is -1 for an odd number but 1 for an even one... weird 03:35:14 © works nicely. 03:35:18 (hold ALT) 169 03:35:18 Sort-of bland, though. 03:35:20 |©^0| = 1 works though 03:35:24 |©^-1| = -1 03:35:32 |©^-2| = 1 03:35:41 So ©^2 is now 1? 03:35:46 what's a software keyboard? like onscreen interface? 03:35:52 yes 03:35:55 yeah 03:35:57 kay. 03:36:04 pretty normal on smartphones 03:36:06 |©©| = -|©| = 1 03:36:12 * zgrep takes a break from this to eat some cake 03:36:14 it's recursive 03:36:18 But |1| = 1, therefore ©© = 1 03:36:19 but 03:36:30 what is |@©| 03:36:31 uh? 03:36:33 Or ©© = -1... 03:36:38 ©© = ±1 03:36:43 There. 03:37:03 |©| = -|©^0| = |©^-1| 03:37:13 myname: :D 03:37:28 |©©| = 1, surprisingly 03:37:32 myname: Obviously -© = 1 03:37:46 If trying to find |@©| you get that. :P 03:37:57 But I think that's because we don't have a working @. 03:38:22 © = 1 or i... depending on the context? :P 03:38:42 * zgrep really goes away now 03:38:43 when did © become i? 03:38:51 If ©© = ±1... 03:38:59 ...I cheated and reversed an absolute value... :P 03:39:05 then |©©| = 1...huh, it is 03:39:20 hey 03:39:23 you can't do that 03:39:29 Why not? :( 03:39:36 The only way to win is to cheat... 03:39:45 1 = |1| = |-1| = |©©| 03:39:55 so you mean 1 = -1 now? 03:40:14 you can't reverse an absolute value, like you did anyway, whether © exists or not 03:42:01 anyone else? 03:42:06 hppavilion[1]? 03:42:42 we made a modified version of @ called ©, and |x©| = -|x|...hello? 04:00:01 @tell Sgeo__ @ seems to fail with regards to exponents... at least, it doesn't do too well... 04:00:01 Consider it noted. 04:00:51 -!- bender| has joined. 04:01:35 zgrep, what's going on? 04:03:02 Sgeo__: So exponents, as in |@^k|. If we assume that |n@| = -n, and n = (@^k)/@, then |@^k| = -(@^k)/@ = -(@^(k-1)) 04:06:10 |@^1| = -(@^0); @^1 = @ (because of https://goo.gl/XMm8lT); So |@| = -1 = -(@^0); so @^0 = 1, so far so good... 04:06:13 But... 04:07:31 |@^0| = |1| = 1 = -(@^(-1)); so (1/@) = -1. Therefore -@ = 1, and @ = -1... :/ 04:08:02 Sgeo__: Which it isn't. 04:08:30 Any suggestions? 04:08:46 rdococ: Suggested |n©| = -|n|, which seems to do the trick. 04:08:59 Where does |n@| = -n come from? Was that my original definiton, or was it |n@| = -|n|? If i remember my most recent proposed definiton for |a+b@| properly, it would be the second, I think 04:09:57 Sgeo__: I don't know what your original definition was, but I know that I first heard of it as |@| = -1. 04:10:15 Sgeo__: What was your most recent definition? 04:11:13 |a+b@| = sqrt(a^2 - b^2) if a^2 - b^2 is positive, i*sqrt(a^2 - b^2) if a^2 - b^2 is negative. Or something like that 04:11:37 Eek. More if statements, atop the absolute value... :( 04:12:39 So theoretically I could have |3+4i+5@+6i@|? :D 04:12:53 Not sure if my definition extends to cover that 04:13:10 If a and b can be complex, then yes. 04:13:16 I think. 04:14:12 |a+b@| = |√(a²+b²)| ? 04:14:18 Err. no. 04:14:26 |a+b@| = √(|a²-b²|) ? 04:14:27 That? 04:15:16 `misle/rn @/|a+b@| = √(|a²-b²|) 04:15:20 Was lied to about «@» 04:15:33 HackEgo is slower than I last recall... 04:17:25 ...either that, or it's my connection. 04:17:42 So |0+1@| = sqrt(|0 - 1|) = 1??? 04:18:11 well maybe not??? 04:18:40 Hm... or I'm wrong... 04:19:03 i*sqrt(a^2-b^2) = i*sqrt(-1) = i^2 = -1... :/ 04:19:42 But i = sqrt(-1) so i*sqrt(a^2-b^2) = sqrt(b^2 - a^2), no? 04:21:48 I guess not. 04:22:06 so @ is a time dimension? 04:22:37 But... I*Sqrt[b] == Sqrt[-b] ??? 04:22:48 yes, I think 04:22:54 Why isn't this working, then? 04:23:12 dunno 04:23:22 a = 0; b = 1; I*Sqrt[a^2 - b^2] => -1; Sqrt[b^2 - a^2] => 1; :( 04:23:38 but I love the idea of a complex hyperplane that takes place in 2 dimensions of space and 1 of time 04:24:17 Sgeo__: was that your intention? a time dimension? 04:24:45 Well, that's what a negative result from absolute value ends up being. 04:24:47 I guess. 04:24:54 Though not exactly. 04:25:03 My recent definition of |a+b@| was inspired by the time dimension, which I believe could be described with a numvber # such that |#| = i 04:25:21 that makes sense 04:25:49 `misle/rn @/|a+b@| = { √(a²-b²) if a²-b² ≥ 0 ; i√(a²-b²) if a²-b² < 0 } 04:26:08 Was lied to about «@» 04:26:31 |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²) 04:26:41 three dimensional tau space 04:26:47 tau representing time dimension 04:27:22 |τ| = sqrt(-1) = i, so it fits your definition too 04:27:42 a + bi + cj + dk <-- 3 dimensions + time? 04:27:53 a + bi + cj - dk 04:28:00 I was close. 04:28:18 Neat. :D 04:28:30 the time dimension is negative 04:28:51 distance is a measure of how hard it is to get to somewhere, so more time allowed, the easier it is 04:29:05 cool, right? 04:29:47 Hm.... hmmmmm.... :D 04:29:57 |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²) if √(a² + b² - c²) >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²) 04:30:10 Wait... so if I have 4τ, then |4τ| = ??? 04:30:17 Ahah. 04:30:24 4i? 04:30:29 Err... not 4i. 04:30:31 2i? 04:30:42 |4t| = sqrt(-16) = 4i 04:30:44 Err. No. I can't think. 04:30:47 Yeah, 4i. 04:30:55 But... how is 4i easier than 3i? 04:31:12 i is basically the negatives 04:31:32 because square roots are like that 04:31:33 That's... why? 04:31:37 But... why? 04:31:55 because x*x=-1 doesn't have any real solution 04:32:23 using my adjusted formula, |4t| = i*sqrt(-16) = 4ii = -4 04:32:29 which is easier than -3 04:32:43 But... why's it adjusted that way? 04:32:56 I guess you could say it just, err, is that way... but... 04:33:06 Oh, there. I see. 04:33:11 I didn't finish reading the line. 04:33:44 but mine is basically the same as Sgeo__'s @ 04:34:05 except that I think tau would be a better symbol to fit it than @ 04:34:17 Huh. Is this tau known by any other, more widely accepted names? 04:34:23 tau / @ / whatever. 04:34:29 sometimes t 04:34:53 I meant more as in, is there a wikipedia page with a snippet about it? Or any other links? 04:35:11 nah, idk if anyone thought of it yet 04:36:43 This is pretty neat. 04:37:22 well, I did have a similar idea 04:37:38 a number y where e^yx = sinh(x) + ycosh(x) 04:37:50 tau might fit it 04:38:28 so I guess |@| = -1 after all, since it's time and all 04:39:57 I should read these logs at some point 04:40:13 I'm only half paying attention, and it involves stuff I'm involved with 04:40:31 we should popularise this @ or tau idea 04:40:40 it would be useful 04:40:50 tau, or @? 04:40:53 both 04:40:56 they're the same 04:40:58 tau. 04:41:03 Damn, autocorrect. 04:41:03 just different names 04:41:05 atau. 04:41:06 :P 04:41:15 t@u? :P 04:41:20 lol 04:42:14 I'm confused by rdococ's definition... sqrt is always (normally) >= 0 unless comparison is undefined 04:42:37 Should it be read as just a^2 + b^2 - c^2 in the conditional? 04:42:41 |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²) 04:42:43 yes 04:42:44 you're right 04:43:01 but it's basically the same as yours, with i added on top 04:43:27 I think this kind of stuff is used, just not in this format 04:43:37 rdococ: I'm-a-back 04:43:54 Is there a way to get the result to be imaginary? Because afaict exactly that is used as the time dimension 04:43:56 also, since it's mostly position, not rotation, if we add a third dimension they don't have to be quarternions 04:44:13 then just remove the conditional 04:44:49 Sgeo__: With @? 04:44:50 But then we exclude negatives 04:45:04 Sgeo__: |$| = i -> $ = -i@ 04:45:10 |a + bi + c@ + d#| = ? 04:45:10 what would it mean for the result to be imaginary? 04:45:21 Sgeo__: What's #? 04:45:36 |#| = i 04:45:43 Sgeo__: That's just -i@ 04:45:47 what would # mean then? 04:46:04 |n@| = -n 04:46:14 rdococ: Whatever we like 04:46:20 hppavilion[1]: time? 04:46:22 Sgeo__: You mean this thing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion 04:46:25 rdococ: It doesn't /have/ to mean something 04:46:36 hppavilion[1], there's an argument for why |n@| = -n is not a good idea 04:46:42 Sgeo__: Why? 04:46:52 And that |n@| = -|n| makes more sense. Something to do with exponentiation 04:46:56 hppavilion[1]: yeah, but if it's part of a system where everything else means something, then it's weird 04:47:02 Sgeo__: Ah, good point 04:47:05 I had the |n@| = -|n| idea 04:47:20 hppavilion[1]: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/VqUBVapD/ 04:47:21 before we realized it was about the time dimension 04:47:56 I'm still convinced that $ or # is time and @ or tau is something else 04:48:14 well 04:48:34 zgrep: Ah, fair enough 04:48:41 distance is a measure of how easy it is to get to somewhere 04:48:51 Sgeo__: What're $ and #? 04:49:03 if you need to be there in a larger time, then it's easier because you have more time to spare 04:49:12 Sgeo__: Also, we need to standardize terms instead of saying "x or y" 04:49:13 hppavilion[1], you just tried to define $ which I tended to call # 04:49:19 Sgeo__: Ah 04:49:20 so that's why tau makes distances lower - getting over there in a day is easier than a minute 04:49:41 makes sense? 04:49:45 it's used in other areas 04:49:54 time as a negative dimension isn't a new idea 04:49:59 Sgeo__: How about we give all the esonums Georgian names? 04:50:13 georgian? 04:50:21 rdococ: http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/georgian.html 04:50:29 rdococ: Georgia the country, not the state 04:50:45 georgia is a state? 04:50:46 rdococ: Greek letters are waaaaaaay overused, and Hebrew is reserved for cardinality 04:50:49 rdococ: Yes 04:50:53 rdococ: Also a country 04:50:59 rdococ: Two different places, though 04:51:02 I have an even better idea 04:51:03 letter t 04:51:09 |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²) 04:51:27 Ⴓ is @ 04:51:55 But... neoletters doesn't render Goergian. Of course. 04:52:04 my chat does 04:52:12 rdococ: OH! 04:52:13 but I'm sticking with t 04:52:18 What's wrong with @ similar to ai for something similar to i except with absolute 04:52:19 rdococ: Why don't we name them with emoji? 04:52:26 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: you should update your neoletters 04:52:41 Wait, I doubt neoletters renders emoji either 04:52:42 \oren\: OK 04:52:45 <\oren\> it's supported Georgian for a while 04:52:47 3:-D + 2;-) 04:52:49 \oren\: Linky? I don't remember where it is 04:52:58 rdococ: Those are emo/ticons/ 04:53:04 oh 04:53:10 does this chat even support emojis? 04:53:16 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm 04:53:20 Oh, found it 04:53:28 rdococ: It supports Unicode, so yes 04:53:53 Some clients might not display it nicely 04:54:20 Sgeo__: Perhaps 04:54:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:54:57 rdococAbs[a_, b_, c_] := Module[{s}, s = a^2 + b^2 - c^2; If[s < 0, I*Sqrt[s], Sqrt[s]]] 04:55:13 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:55:28 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:55:34 zgrep: yep 04:55:44 Come oooooooon georg- nope 04:55:49 \oren\: I can't get it to install 04:55:53 I download the latest ttf 04:56:09 Open the "THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG" window that Windows gives me (sorry) 04:56:11 Click install 04:56:17 Say yes when it asks to replace the font 04:56:20 Doesn't update 04:56:28 Sgeo__: if $ was time, then what's # or t? 04:56:35 @* 04:56:35 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 04:56:37 <\oren\> try restarting your caht app 04:56:41 <\oren\> chat app 04:56:42 s/#/@ 04:57:03 rdococ, not really sure. A time dimension that doesn't get weird past the speed of light? 04:57:14 Or it gets weird in a different way from reality 04:57:47 \oren\: I did. That was the login-logout 04:58:05 Sgeo__: c = \omega 04:58:08 |$| = i, but |t| = -1... what is imaginary distance anyway 04:58:08 Sgeo__: Fixed. 04:58:58 <\oren\> try setting your font to another one and back to neoletters? 04:59:14 <\oren\> I do that in my terminal each time I update it 05:00:03 -!- variable has joined. 05:00:17 variable = 26 05:00:26 Would rolling my own IRC client be a bad idea? 05:00:39 <\oren\> no 05:00:57 <\oren\> IRC is a very simple protocol, easy to implement 05:01:06 \oren\: That didn't work 05:01:15 i'd use ii as a foundation 05:02:08 h,, 05:02:14 <\oren\> there are well-known libraries in Perl and Python for IRC 05:02:21 toiiredp 05:02:34 rdococ: SEGMENTATION FAULT 05:02:42 huh? 05:02:52 hppavilion[1]: yeah, IRC is fairly easy to write a client for 05:02:56 look at the sheer number of bots 05:03:04 http://tools.suckless.org/ii/ 05:05:12 t*t = ? 05:05:39 \oren\, can you guess which is the number 3 and which is the russian letter 'eh'? https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/YIDcIFry/3eh.png 05:05:52 Without trying it yourself, that is. :P 05:06:49 i'd say the left one is a 3 05:07:51 i am getting sleepy 05:07:58 <\oren\> myname: you are correct 05:11:46 <\oren\> neoletters also has ↋ƐɛɜɝꜾꜿεЄԐԑЗз 05:11:50 should I implement t into Squeak? 05:12:38 what is t*t? 05:13:52 |a + bi + cj + ... + zt| = √(a² + b² + c² + ... - z²) if a² + b² + c² + ... - z² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² + c² + ... - z²) 05:14:02 generalized to n dimensions 05:14:37 but help me discover t*t 05:15:56 -!- Lilly_Goodman has joined. 05:16:48 |1 + 1i + 2t| = isqrt(1 + 1 - 4) = -2 05:17:51 -!- Lyka has joined. 05:17:55 hi 05:18:06 -sqrt(2)* 05:18:16 update on hexadec: made a "reduced" form 05:18:16 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: make sure in the font menu you select neoletters Regular? 05:18:30 \oren\: I believe I did 05:18:31 http://pastebin.com/49wLRcB3 05:18:43 Normal 05:19:07 brb 05:19:52 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: well that's a prblem. it should be "Regular" nd not "Normal" 05:20:03 \oren\: There is no "Regular" 05:20:09 \oren\: So I assume Regular = Normal 05:20:27 <\oren\> the earlier versions had "Normal" the newer ones have "Regular" 05:21:33 <\oren\> hmm maybe go to the controlpanel->fonts and find neoletters and delete it? 05:24:23 back 05:24:48 so, um, does the language make any sense now? 05:25:01 <\oren\> hmm I wonder why installing the new version over the old doesn't work when the naming of the subfonts changed? 05:25:15 <\oren\> spooky 05:29:23 is this a bad time to ask about a language i made? 05:29:39 can you help me determine what t*t is? 05:29:40 |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²) 05:29:52 t^2? 05:30:08 well, yes, but 05:30:12 what's t^2? 05:30:12 Dang. Perl6 has a bunch of neat things it can do... http://tpm2016.zoffix.com/ 05:30:20 I can't seem to figure it out 05:31:27 also, how is getting to (5, 5) in 6 seconds as easy as getting to 50, 50 in 51 seconds? 05:31:45 |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² / c²) if a² + b² / c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² / c²) 05:32:00 rdococ: Well, what's t? 05:32:19 |5, 5i, 6t| = sqrt(25 + 25 / 36) = sqrt(50 / 36) 05:32:52 but wait 05:33:03 if we do 05:33:03 |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²) 05:33:07 (5*sqrt(2)) / (50*sqrt(2)) == 1/10 05:33:22 rdococAbs[5, 5, 6] = Sqrt[14] 05:33:25 6/51 != 1/10 05:33:37 sorry 05:33:45 i'm not good at math 05:34:20 passed calc 1 by sucking up during the last 5 weeks 05:34:41 passed calc 2 by dropping out of college 05:34:47 then |1 + 1i + 2t| = sqrt(1 + 1 - 4) = sqrt(-2) but |2 + 2i + 4t| = sqrt(4 + 4 - 16) = sqrt(...oh 05:34:55 wait 05:35:06 -8? 05:35:06 rdococAbs[1, 1, 2] = -Sqrt[2] 05:35:22 ik 05:35:40 should it be - c^2 or / c^2? 05:35:57 rdococAbs is written with - c^2... division? 05:36:09 |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² / c²) 05:36:24 getting there in 5 seconds is twice as hard as 10 seconds, same as if you double the distance 05:36:25 Just b/c? 05:36:32 no 05:36:34 Or (a^2+b^2)/(c^2) 05:36:38 yes 05:36:57 -!- Lilly_Goodman has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:37:03 I think that will work better 05:37:14 rdococAbs2[1, 2, I] = -Sqrt[5] :P 05:37:43 well, Abs2[1, 1, 2] should be 1 + 1 / 4, or 1/2 05:37:51 well 05:38:12 |1 + 1i + 2t| = sqrt(1 + 1 / 4) = sqrt(1/2) 05:38:36 |2 + 2i + 4t| = sqrt(4 + 4 / 16) = sqrt(1/2) 05:38:41 yay 05:38:44 it works as intended 05:39:48 1/Sqrt[2] 05:39:53 Abs2[1,1,2] ^ 05:40:06 yay 05:40:20 what software are you using? Mathematica? 05:40:22 Yep. 05:40:25 is it free? 05:40:30 Unfortunately, no. 05:40:35 how much does it cost? 05:40:40 Too much. 05:40:51 really? 05:40:55 I get it free, courtesy of school. 05:41:06 I ask how much money something will cost and you give me the vaguest answer. 05:41:11 -.- 05:41:28 http://www.wolfram.com/mathematica/pricing/ 05:41:35 okay 05:41:36 ty 05:41:50 See, pricy. 05:41:53 s/cy/cey/ :P 05:42:18 Though technically, your function is easily written in K... 05:42:36 hmm 05:42:43 or any other language really 05:42:58 just need to figure out t*t 05:43:34 well, multiplying by a unit like 1, i or t should keep the magnitude the same 05:43:42 so |x| = |x*t| 05:43:53 no wait 05:43:59 wait yeah 05:44:00 wait 05:45:43 great.... |x|-rated conversation 05:45:58 Heheh... 05:46:46 well 05:46:53 a space angle is rotation 05:46:58 a space time angle is velocity 05:46:58 rdococ: Mathematica can *sometimes* be fed into Mathics, and perhaps even into WolframAlpha sometimes. 05:48:01 Mathics is this thing: https://mathics.angusgriffith.com/ 05:48:53 K? 05:49:08 Lyka: kparc.com/k.txt 05:49:26 Though I don't know if it'd work with imaginary numbers. It wasn't exactly designed for those, I don't think. 05:49:33 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_%28programming_language%29 05:51:22 hm 05:53:40 |x| = infinity 05:53:49 |x + t| = x 05:53:58 1* 05:54:03 x* 05:54:55 solve for x where x^0 != 1 05:59:24 * Lyka imagines sheep with numbers on them 05:59:30 night 05:59:40 -!- Lyka has left. 06:10:14 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 06:14:10 hhbhb so t ired## 06:16:42 Internet is full of April's fools jokes now. http://www.questionablecontent.net/ has one. 06:25:20 -!- evalj has joined. 06:32:16 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 06:35:29 -!- impomatic_ has joined. 06:35:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:35:45 -!- dos has joined. 06:39:25 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:49:03 -!- variable has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero). 06:50:07 In underload, is it possible to store data in the source code at four bits per source code character density such that the program can decode it unambiguously? 07:08:05 I think it's possible. I'll have to try to make a proof. 07:09:14 Someone should write a Hello, World with 1000000% cruft, MVC, etc. 07:09:21 -!- dos has changed nick to hppavilion[1]. 07:09:48 AbstractPrinterFactory() 07:10:42 [wiki] [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46711&oldid=46710 * Kc kennylau * (+47) /* 0 to 255 using only a, e, u, z (To be completed) */ 07:11:49 Today's GG is probably very good for certain shippers 07:13:12 Could we atomize MVC even further? 07:13:18 MVCQDNX? 07:13:33 To make something even more atrocious 07:13:44 hppavilion[1]: I'm absolutely certain that's been done... http://www.ariel.com.au/jokes/The_Evolution_of_a_Programmer.html 07:16:03 zgrep: Perhaps we should make the world's most absurdly bloated Beginning Projects Repo 07:16:20 With officially-named and trademarked programs 07:16:26 hppavilion[1]: https://github.com/fwilson42/SimpleJavaEasyNumber 07:16:32 Industrial strenght, of course 07:18:00 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:30:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:07:09 https://www.youtube.com/snoopavision?v=MU39xSNukfg 08:24:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:08:25 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:09:21 -!- heroux has joined. 09:20:35 -!- Deepfriedice has joined. 09:30:09 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 09:31:38 > ord '=' 09:31:40 61 09:31:55 @messages- 09:31:55 boily asked 8h 39m 14s ago: do you feel matched? 09:32:04 @tell boily No. 09:32:04 Consider it noted. 09:34:10 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 09:36:33 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:36:34 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 09:37:16 * oerjan realizes he just did something he's been annoyed at others doing. 09:37:27 @tell boily RE: matching. 09:37:27 Consider it noted. 09:40:03 oerjan: You're unmatched? 09:40:12 :P 09:40:29 in so many ways 09:43:19 Heheh. 09:43:57 That's both happy and sad. :| 09:44:41 yep 10:06:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 10:19:56 I guess unmatched is better than mismatched (maybe( 10:20:07 Hm, that should probably have been (maybe] 10:31:01 Are there any vim users here? Vim has a jump list where it tracks big moves, but that's not really what I need. Is there an edit location list where I can find the places I've edited in the file previously? 10:31:26 FireFly: Agh! [))) 10:32:22 b_jonas: well, it has an undo tree that you can query for some info, maybe it includes position 10:32:28 I wouldn't know how to use it though 10:33:14 There's a plugin called gundo that visualizes the undo tree and allows you to jump around in it 10:34:09 I'd like commands like prevpos and nextpos in joe-editor, which let me quickly jump to places of previous edits. It's very convenient but few editors seem to have it. 10:34:26 Lets you avoid setting bookmarks a lot. 10:34:44 That sounds useful, yeah 10:35:37 http://stackoverflow.com/a/2131407/1267058 oh. 10:35:44 -!- boily has joined. 10:37:15 FireFly: ah, that says g, might do that 10:37:49 It seems to work, toyed around with it a bit 10:37:50 g ; for previous and g , for next. strange assignments 10:38:22 but they make sense 10:38:25 Probably related to the ; , commands that repeat f/F/t/T forwward/backward 10:38:44 But vim's assignments can be pretty weird and arbitrary sometimes 10:39:04 You could always remap them to something else prefixed by if you prefer 10:49:26 g? is the best g. 10:51:54 @massages-loud 10:51:54 oerjan said 1h 19m 50s ago: No. 10:51:54 oerjan said 1h 14m 27s ago: RE: matching. 10:54:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:04:03 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:08:59 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 11:23:16 -!- boily has quit (Quit: HELICAL CHICKEN). 11:59:26 -!- tromp has joined. 12:03:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:27:08 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:29:32 -!- Deepfriedice has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:39:16 -!- Reece` has joined. 12:39:23 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:41:02 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:43:54 -!- shikhin has joined. 12:49:57 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:50:23 -!- hydraz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:51:29 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:51:47 -!- shikhin has joined. 12:51:55 -!- hydraz has joined. 12:51:56 -!- hydraz has quit (Changing host). 12:51:56 -!- hydraz has joined. 12:53:54 -!- tromp has joined. 13:00:46 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:03:16 -!- shikhin has joined. 13:05:19 -!- rdococ has joined. 13:07:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:21:47 -!- bender| has quit (Changing host). 13:21:47 -!- bender| has joined. 13:41:59 -!- spiette has joined. 13:46:36 -!- p34k has joined. 13:53:49 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk). 13:54:04 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 13:54:28 -!- Frooxius has joined. 14:18:12 -!- bender| has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:35:45 -!- asie has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4). 14:38:07 -!- tromp has joined. 14:43:04 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:49:09 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:05:35 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 15:11:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:24:16 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:32:42 |a + ct| = √(a² / c²) 15:32:47 so what is t*t? 15:32:56 well, 15:33:35 |1 + tt| = sqrt(1 / t^2) 15:37:52 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:44:07 did you resolve ©? 15:45:37 sgeo told us that @ was inspired by time dimension and so we come up with |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b| --- the last part was someone else's idea from another channel 15:48:38 so |tt| = |0|/|t| 15:50:13 you going to help? 15:55:47 -!- mihow has joined. 16:28:15 -!- XorSwap has joined. 16:28:43 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:31:28 -!- XorSwap has quit (Client Quit). 16:32:31 -!- Kaynato has joined. 16:32:40 http://senseis.xmp.net/?TerritoryScoringOnGoServersConsideredHarmful oh em gee 16:32:47 considered harmful essays everywhere 16:36:36 |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b| 16:37:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 16:38:50 hppavilion[1]: help me with this- |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b| 16:38:56 I want to find out t^2 16:39:06 rdococ: OK 16:39:23 rdococ: You don't have ANY constants 16:39:40 rdococ: Try defining a and b to appropriate numbers and working from there 16:39:50 no, t is like i but different 16:39:59 rdococ: |t|=-1, right? 16:40:24 |t| = sqrt(0 / 1) = |0|/|1| = 0 now 16:40:44 and |a + 0t| = sqrt(a^2 / 0) = sqrt(infinity) 16:40:52 rdococ: If |t|=0, then doesn't that just make t=0? 16:41:04 not really 16:41:04 rdococ: Or t=k 16:41:12 |a + 0| =/= |a + 0t| 16:41:13 (k^2=0, k!=0) 16:41:17 Oh 16:41:28 no, wait 16:41:46 |a + 0| = |a + 0t| 16:41:48 but 16:41:51 no 16:41:53 ye 16:42:09 |0| = sqrt(0/0) = ??? 16:42:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:42:16 |t| = sqrt(0/1) = 0 16:42:19 "And now there is non-binary sex. I guess that would be "analog sex"..." 16:42:25 in my system |0| =/= 0 16:42:37 s/"analog sex"/\\"analog sex\\"/ 16:42:56 so... |2t| = 0, but |t + t| = -1 16:43:01 (sex is gender in this case, not the act between bored teenagers) 16:43:15 |t + t| = sqrt(0 / 2^2) = 0 16:43:23 2t = t+t 16:43:26 rdococ: How does |0| != 0? What's |0|? 16:43:31 |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b| 16:43:46 |0| = sqrt(0 / 0) 16:43:56 in t+t, a is t and b is 1, in 2t, a is 0 and b is 2 16:44:01 ignore the |a|/|b| 16:44:41 |t + t| = sqrt(t^2 / 1) = t... 16:45:01 rdococ: So |0| = r for all r in R 16:45:03 |2t| = sqrt(0 / 4) = |t + t| = sqrt(t^2 / 1) 16:45:08 hppavilion[1]: yes 16:45:11 rdococ: 0/0 can be said to equal any R 16:45:31 sqrt(0 / 4) = sqrt(t^2) = t...??????? what 16:45:41 0 = t 16:45:49 wth 16:46:07 my original definition was |a + bt| = √(a² - b²) 16:47:24 but that would make it as easy to go 10000 miles in 10001 seconds than to go 1 miles in 2 seconds, whereas the second one is much harder 16:47:33 so I changed it to |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) 16:48:34 rdococ: One of the benefits of @ that t seems to lack is that @ is logical and straightforward; it just has one little gotcha that makes it different, but that can be explained in a single equation with exactly 1 operation (assuming -1 is syntactically a number, not "apply negation to 1") 16:48:48 |@| = -1? 16:48:50 @ can be explained as |@| = -1 16:48:52 rdococ: Yes 16:48:57 so 16:49:02 rdococ: You are yet to clearly explain t to me. 16:49:13 rdococ: And you have to establish all these other rules in the process 16:49:19 i has the same property: i^2 = -1 16:49:30 we recently found out that sgeo's latest definition for @ is |a + b@| = √(a² - b²) 16:49:44 There are other subtleties, but the straightforward part of i is just i=sqrt(-1) 16:49:46 rdococ: Really? 16:49:48 rdococ: OK... 16:49:51 apparently 16:49:53 I think 16:49:54 idk 16:49:58 but |@| = -1 16:50:02 rdococ: That's actually pretty interesting 16:50:17 |bt| = √(0² / b²) = 0 16:50:21 rdococ: And much moer useful than the original 16:50:41 but it's not exactly the same as t 16:50:44 rdococ: But why the division? 16:50:56 rdococ: You have to explain that too 16:51:07 hppavilion[1]: it should be equal difficulty to go 100 miles in 200 seconds as it is to go 10 miles in 20 seconds, t does this but @ doesn't 16:51:26 rdococ: Beautiful esonums can be explained as a single operation on them equaling a number that operation usually cannot produce 16:51:42 |10 + 20t| = |100 + 200t| but |10 + 20@| =/= |100 + 200@| 16:51:54 hmm 16:52:05 rdococ: Good point, I guess 16:52:13 that's why I changed it to / 16:53:02 another idea I had was e^fx = sinh(x) + rcosh(x) where the esonum is f 16:53:11 s/rcosh/fcosh/ 16:53:21 hyperbolic sine and cosine 16:53:32 so it's a hyperbolic i 16:53:38 should I change the definition to that? 16:54:11 <\oren\> we REALLY need to make templates compile faster 16:54:14 @1 16:54:14 Say again? 16:54:19 @1 What 16:54:20 W|-|4T 16:54:30 huh 16:54:32 oh 16:54:41 @1337 I see 16:54:42 i seE 16:55:19 <\oren\> @1337 i am a leet haxor 16:55:19 I 4M A leE+ Hax0r 16:55:36 <\oren\> not leet enough 16:56:32 e ͭ ͯ = sinh(x) + tcosh(x) 16:56:40 like this new idea? 16:58:56 hppavilion[1] 17:00:20 rdococ: Yes? 17:00:24 rdococ: Sorry, I vanished 17:00:29 what about this instead - e ͭ ͯ = sinh(x) + tcosh(x) 17:00:45 rdococ: The two characters after e aren't rendering 17:01:00 oh 17:01:08 rdococ: Ah, it's e^tx 17:01:21 how'd you figure it out? 17:01:38 rdococ: My browser still renders them, and I have the godlike powers of COPY AND PASTE 17:02:03 e^tx = sinh(x) + tcosh(x) 17:02:12 anyways 17:02:19 do you think the idea is better than my other one? 17:02:46 rdococ: It might be, I don't know 17:02:51 i'm not sure there isn't already a t which matches there 17:03:08 oerjan: Does e^jpi = 1? 17:03:09 but the t is an esonum 17:03:12 <\oren\> hppavilion ypu really neeed an update 17:03:20 you mean e^tpi? 17:03:23 \oren\: I tried 17:03:27 hppavilion[1]: what's j 17:03:31 rdococ: No 17:03:35 Where j^2 = 1, j != 1 17:03:40 oh 17:03:47 oerjan: I was typing it, but people kept talking :P 17:04:06 <\oren\> try deleting the font in the vontrl$panel and reintaling it 17:04:31 <\oren\> sorry fpr bad spelibg[im on my phone 17:04:46 hppavilion[1]: try plugging it into the series for e^x, that's my goto-definition for whether that makes sense. 17:05:05 (of course then you have to define the limits too) 17:05:19 -!- vanila has joined. 17:05:20 hello 17:05:35 Need to close hc to delete it 17:05:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:05:43 > [(exp x, sinh x + cosh x) | x <- [0, 0.1 ..]] 17:05:44 [(1.0,1.0),(1.1051709180756477,1.1051709180756475),(1.2214027581601699,1.221... 17:05:50 thought so 17:05:57 rdococ: t = 1 hth 17:06:37 e^1x = sinh(x) + cosh(x)? 17:06:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 17:06:44 <\oren\> the build failed again 17:07:00 \oren\: I deleted neoletters 17:07:07 \oren\: Had to close HC and NP++ 17:07:16 @_@ 17:07:22 \oren\: It didn't work, at least for ͭ ͯ 17:07:29 (And yes, I reinstalled) 17:08:12 e^tx = sinh(x) + tcosh(x), t =/= 1 17:08:28 \oren\: Also, the name changed from "normal" to "medium" 17:09:05 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: good it shoukd at least work with georgian noe 17:09:13 rdococ: the hyperbolic functions are pretty much what you get when you take the expressions for the trigonometric ones in terms of exp and remove i's everywhere 17:09:32 <\oren\> ill add those superscripts[when i get home ftom work 17:09:36 \oren\: Oh, it does :) 17:09:37 > [(exp (-x), sinh x - cosh x) | x <- [0, 0.1 ..]] -- testing another 17:09:38 [(1.0,-1.0),(0.9048374180359595,-0.9048374180359595),(0.8187307530779818,-0.... 17:09:43 \oren\: Yay! It actually did update! 17:09:47 well 17:09:54 how does time rotation work 17:09:59 hm needs switching order, i think 17:10:20 (In retrospect, the reason it wouldn't update the font was probably because I had applications with it open 17:12:29 In other news, the new s is bugging me :P 17:12:38 @check \x -> exp x == sinh x + cosh (x :: Double) -- wondering if ghc uses this exactly 17:12:39 :1:103: 17:12:39 parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets) 17:12:42 darn 17:12:55 <\oren\> nah i did a tesy it is a bug in windows where it won't ovrwrite a otf with a ttf 17:13:28 @check \x -> exp x == sinh x + cosh (x :: Double) 17:13:30 *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 3 tests and 4 shrinks): 17:13:30 2.4646339992384982 17:13:37 hm apparently not 17:13:37 <\oren\> for some goddamn reason 17:13:52 what about this instead? t = i^2, t =/= -1 17:15:11 rdococ: that violates basic equality laws, which are logic not arithmetic. 17:15:35 I don't see that stopping any other people from doing stuff like it 17:15:45 thataway lies NaN and other madness. 17:15:52 like I saw an esonum where q^2 = 1 but q =/= 1 17:16:05 rdococ: That's different 17:16:10 rdococ: And it's called "j" 17:16:25 rdococ: that doesn't violate equality. you can have as many solutions to q^2 = 1 as you want in a general algebra. 17:16:39 rdococ: It's one of the three 2d real algebras (or something) 17:16:45 of course it won't be a field if there's more than two. 17:16:50 rdococ: The other two are the complexes and k, which is like j but for 0 17:16:53 ?????? 17:17:22 oerjan: so why can't I do sqrt(t) = i then and t =/= -1? 17:17:27 rdococ: but t = i^2 and i^2 = -1 imply t = -1 from pure logic. 17:17:54 q^2 = 1 and sqrt(1) = q 17:18:09 mine isn't any different 17:18:15 ?????????????????????????????????? 17:18:50 or ti = -i, but t =/= -1 17:19:28 rdococ: because sqrt a = x, is not the unique solution to x^2 = a, but if you don't have (sqrt a)^2 = a then it's not a square root. 17:19:54 hw about this 17:19:59 start with the ring Z 17:20:07 then take the 'algebraic esoclosure' 17:20:13 okay, I'm using the ti = -i definition along with t =/= -1 17:20:20 which is where you add infinityl many distinct solutions to every algebraic equation 17:20:26 rdococ: the point is, to get i^2 to be t you have to redefine i^2 which already exists. 17:20:52 oh... 17:20:55 uh... 17:21:08 What do you think? 17:21:11 but there's nothing stopping me from breaking that rule and giving it two solutions 17:21:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:21:20 but anyway 17:21:45 ti = -i but t =/= -1... 17:21:56 ... 17:22:00 ah nevermind 17:22:50 rdococ: ok, just define 2+2 = t while you're at it. 17:23:12 yes good idea 17:23:15 2 + 2 = t 17:23:17 t - 2 = 2 17:23:19 t / 2 = 2 17:23:22 hi 17:23:23 t * 2 = 2 17:23:27 t / 5 = 2 17:24:07 vanila: way ahead of you, it seems. 17:24:13 ? 17:24:20 or perhaps crashing high speed into the same point. 17:25:07 (as usual, the real challenge is to end up with anything actually interesting.) 17:25:40 rather than a chaotic mess where everything is equally true. 17:26:00 0=1 17:27:12 make it 1=2 and we can summon pope russell 17:27:19 sin(q) = 2 17:27:20 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 17:27:32 stop vanishing 17:27:40 sin(q) = 2 17:28:23 sin(e) q(ua) non 17:28:43 hmm 17:29:21 here it says that in the Minkowski metric, time is imaginary 17:29:39 |x + (y + ti)i| 17:30:16 |x + (y + ti)i| = |x + yi - t|... 17:31:32 sine qua omnes est 17:32:06 im no good at latin 17:33:47 * oerjan summons john cleese to teach quintopia 17:34:21 WITHOUT WHICH THEY ALL IT IS? 17:34:55 actually the IT is redundant 17:34:57 DANCE THE WAX TADPOLE 17:35:10 hppavilion[1]: *BITE 17:35:26 oerjan: THAT's what it is 17:36:46 `addquote bite the wax tadpole 17:37:20 1274) bite the wax tadpole 17:43:51 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:46:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:47:01 -!- Kaynato has joined. 17:56:13 "female horse fastened with wax" 17:57:08 i probably meant sine qua omnia est 17:57:28 quintopia: still using a singular verb, there 17:57:57 you just changed the gender of omnia 17:57:57 no, it's fastened with a staple 17:58:10 i think omnia is singular 17:58:15 it is in english 17:58:27 wait 17:58:27 quintopia: no, it is neuter plural nominative 17:58:32 hmm 17:58:37 omnia is plural in nominative, accusative, and vocative 17:58:39 fine have your sunt 17:59:05 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/omnis#Declension 17:59:11 -!- Caesura has joined. 17:59:17 but i dont really want omnia thrn 17:59:28 `? thrn 17:59:28 What are you trying to say? 17:59:37 i want the equivalent of english "everything" 17:59:39 thrn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:59:52 quintopia: omne, then. 17:59:58 totum? 18:00:01 or that. 18:00:07 totum est? 18:00:16 What's the sentence supposed to be? 18:00:30 without which everything is 18:02:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:02:35 Doesn't sine take the ablative? 18:03:05 probs bobs 18:03:11 isn't qua ablative 18:03:24 most like 18:03:50 `? latin 18:04:03 latin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:04:12 Oh, duh. There are like 3 quis in Latin, and I mixed them up 18:04:55 `le/rn LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI 18:04:56 No output. 18:05:00 oops 18:05:04 `learn LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI 18:05:07 Learned 'latina': LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI 18:05:10 hm 18:05:10 le/rn: print better output twh 18:05:24 `` mv wisdom/latin{a,} 18:05:26 No output. 18:06:38 I think sine qua omne est is probably the closest. 18:06:39 le/rn is taking over 18:06:46 even your beloved learn is not immune 18:06:53 ;_; 18:07:35 In Latin, learning is disco, baby 18:10:01 `? le/rn 18:10:03 le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. 18:10:04 `` ln -s bin/slashlearn bin/disce 18:10:09 No output. 18:10:23 That wisdom entry is outdated now. 18:10:24 In underload, is it possible to store data in the source code at four bits per source code character density such that the program can decode it unambiguously? <-- of course not, there are only 9 command characters and no way to decode non-command ones. also some combinations are nops or infinite loops so you have to avoid them. 18:10:34 `disce Learning is disco, baby. 18:10:34 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: disce: not found 18:10:41 Oh, boo 18:10:59 you can store 1 bit per character, though, as i did in the rule 110 program. 18:11:50 Daoyu commands fill the 4-bit space 18:12:07 maybe you can find a code that gives 2, i'd be surprised if 3 were possible (you'd need to be able to lose only one character possibility on average) 18:12:09 daoyu makes little sense 18:12:24 Eh, how so? 18:12:37 If the specification is unclear, please tell me so I can improve it 18:12:50 the diagrams communicate nothing 18:12:58 Ah, I'll fix that right now 18:13:05 `disce Learning is disco, baby. 18:13:05 They were a bit of a rush job 18:13:06 No output. 18:13:12 `? learning 18:13:14 learning? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:14:14 `? learning 18:14:15 Learning is disco, baby. 18:14:17 There 18:14:36 prooftechnique: ooh you meant that disco literally 18:14:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: Aut disce aut discede | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Budapest. 18:15:07 I guess really the gerund is discere, but whatever hth 18:16:26 I really like that topic :) 18:16:57 is a real old latin verb? 18:17:05 "to disc"? 18:17:20 Most Latin verbs are old 18:17:31 disco, discere, dedici, no PPP 18:17:35 To teach 18:17:49 There is no gerund 18:17:52 prooftechnique except the new ones 18:17:57 Caesura: To learn 18:18:03 gah 18:18:17 doceo 18:18:20 got that mixed up 18:18:20 Somewhat wonderfully, dedisco is to unlearn 18:18:34 Doceo, docere, docui, doctus 18:18:38 That's to teach 18:18:45 Hence docent :) 18:18:46 doctus 18:19:03 3rd person plural indicative active present 18:19:12 prooftechnique: i think "discere" is the infinitive, but wiktionary's table lists it as nominative gerund which it sort of logically is 18:19:13 Hence doctor, one who teaches 18:19:36 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 18:19:41 Infinitives as gerunds can be done... but there isn't anything like "discendus" 18:20:11 Caesura: because the real gerund is not used in the nominative... 18:20:32 This is where I realize that I have spent the last two years unlearning the latin from the three years prior 18:20:44 I think they call it a degenerate form or something? My Latin grammar is a little hazy 18:21:00 m=m*2 18:21:11 I think that's right 18:21:59 I wish I knew more Ancient Greek, but I don't think any time I spent learning Latin was wasted 18:22:28 -!- Reece` has joined. 18:22:43 I learned a bit of Attic Greek under the notion that it would be easier 18:22:49 It is not. It is not easier than Latin. 18:22:59 Caesura: funny, virtually all my latin grammar i learned ~ 30 years ago from a grammar i found in the town library. and i still remember much of it. 18:23:34 Aeorist prefixing was such a pain with greek 18:23:35 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit). 18:23:48 I won awards in state and national competitions on Latin 18:24:10 I would really like to know what it is in the human brain that seems to lead to the mutation of "to be" and "to go" in so many languages. 18:24:11 wow i wouldnt have guessed you were as old as that implies. 18:24:25 oerjan: Is 31 and advanced 18:24:32 Such a strong child 18:24:34 I should try and keep Latin fresh in my memory with a bit more effort, hm 18:24:41 prooftechnique: 45 18:25:03 i learned it in two year-long classes 15 years ago and remember little besides vocabulary and 1st and 2nd declension suffices 18:25:40 I think I spent my fifth year of latin unlearning it, the more I think about that 18:25:55 I mainly just use it for passphrases, now. 18:25:59 The gerundive / gerund distinction never really sunk into my memory, I think :x 18:26:01 Free word order is pretty nice. 18:26:14 Gerundive is the non-nominative, the noun of "to verb," right 18:26:31 No, isn't that the gerund 18:26:40 Ah, self-demonstration 18:26:56 Gerund is -ing, gerundive is the adjectival form 18:28:04 disco, discere, dedici, no PPP <-- hm are you saying wiktionary's table is erroneous, then 18:28:20 Though Romans were goofs and sometimes used the gerundive in place of the gerund for euphony 18:28:25 This kills the translator 18:28:27 any april 1 stuff worth checking out this year? 18:29:19 Personally, I can't wait to see what my talky box from Amazon has cooked up while I've been at work. It has the power to call my phone, so I expect prank calls. 18:30:31 oerjan: PPP is the past participle, which disco does not have. 18:30:47 ais523, you can telnet read wikipedia 18:31:04 and this https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7511 18:31:04 Though it does have a passive one, so... 18:31:10 fungot: smile! 18:31:11 int-e: what is that? 18:31:26 fungot: What do you like on pizza? 18:31:26 prooftechnique: i have a drug overdose? wah, that spoils it even more simply in our new language 18:31:37 vanila: telnet wikipedia actually seems potentially useful 18:31:41 I hope they keep it around 18:31:44 Yah 18:31:48 ais523, there is already a gopher wikipedia 18:31:50 I mean, you could telnet to port 80 but it's annoying 18:31:57 True. 18:32:41 ais523: connection refused :( 18:32:48 huh, RFC MMI syntax has a MIGHT? 18:32:54 Agora uses MAY for that 18:34:15 someone posted a patch for a leftpad(2) syscall to the Linux kernel 18:34:25 that was at least mildly amusing 18:34:25 The wikipedia table lists the supine... hmmm 18:34:34 the kernel devs are pretending to take it seriously 18:35:09 We were taught with the fourth principal part as the PPP 18:35:46 ais523: ouch... 18:35:53 leftpad system call 18:36:21 did they also post a libc wrapper with userspace emulation as fallback to the gnu libc mailing lists? 18:36:32 come to think of it they shuld probably implement it in the vDSO 18:36:36 b_jonas: not that I saw 18:39:25 -!- lleu has joined. 18:39:43 -!- ais523 has quit. 18:39:52 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:42:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:45:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:46:34 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 18:49:49 hmm 18:50:23 what about an esoteric programming language that's turing complete because of its esonums 18:50:41 what's an esonum? 18:51:04 42 18:51:09 a number defined to behave like a number, but slightly different 18:51:14 Seriously. 18:51:22 Marvin Minsky ♥ 18:51:28 rdococ, that's a really cool idea i like it 18:51:33 e.g. an esonum called @ could do this - |@| = -1 18:51:47 rdococ, did you hear my idea about alg. esoclosure 18:51:53 don't think it was my idea 18:52:44 an esolang with addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponentiation and i 18:52:52 3+2i^5i 18:52:57 e^i 18:53:08 #^@ 18:53:15 p sure you can have a TC esolang just with reals and equality... 18:53:26 what about a programing lanugage based on counter examples to tarskis high school algebra problem? 18:53:31 the number system 18:53:50 what about 18:53:52 those are surely esonumbers 18:54:04 a programming language that doesn't need to evaluate things to manipulate them 18:54:14 you mean haskell? 18:54:27 it would be able to detect that 3+2 = 4+1 without evaluating either for example 18:54:55 a better example is 3+2+x = 5+x 18:55:12 it would be able to do that without evaluating x 18:56:02 how do you tell which bits to evaluate 18:56:40 super lazy evaluation - if there's any way round evaluating something, do that way 18:57:00 3+2+x = 5+x for example - you might need to evaluate 3+2, but not x 18:57:06 [wiki] [[Daoyu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46712&oldid=46696 * Kaynato * (+1059) Clarifications (replaced diagrams) 18:57:53 e^sqrt(-1)x would equal sin(x) + sqrt(-1)cos(x) without evaluating sqrt(-1) 18:58:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:58:06 say |@| = -1, no error there either 18:58:56 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:59:30 [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Kaynato * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Daoyu Symbol Table.png]]": Irrelevant information removed 18:59:39 hppavilion[1]: we were just discussing super lazy evaluation - an idea where a programming language would try its absolute hardest not to evaluate something, it's almost not lazy 18:59:55 rdococ: Yes, I've heard of that 19:00:08 how would it know what not to evaluate? 19:00:11 e.g. in such a language, a computer would detect that e^sqrt(-1)x = sin(x) + sqrt(-1)cos(x) without ever knowing that sqrt(-1) = i 19:00:14 rdococ: Ultimate Lazy Evaluation just prints out the program and tells you to "do it your fucking self" 19:00:22 quintopia: Is this better? 19:00:35 vanila: it wouldn't evaluate anything, just manipulate, simplify and stuff 19:01:21 (1/0)/0 = 1, and it wouldn't even know that 1/0 evaluates to an error 19:01:25 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:01:38 You're talking about symbolic computation? 19:01:38 s/(1/0)/0/1/(1/0)/ 19:01:40 yes 19:01:49 Pretty sure you can set that up with Wolfram 19:02:07 yes but it detects stuff like 1/0 19:02:19 mine would be too lazy to realize that 1/0 evaluates to an error 19:02:25 <\oren\> huh theres a vuln in emacs this time? 19:02:27 With some redefinitions you coul do that also 19:03:09 rdococ, so i guess you just try every evaluation order possible until you get a normalised expression? 19:03:29 perhaps...? 19:03:36 maybe it could use substitution 19:03:42 e.g. 1/1/x = x 19:03:59 or (x^y)^z = x^yz 19:04:01 Wolfram evaluates 1/(1/0) to be 0, it seems 19:04:24 Although it also WARNS you that 1/0 is encountered, it doesn't break the entire thing 19:04:53 oh, right, 1/1/0 = 0 19:04:59 wolfram is right 19:05:12 It is very powerful for symbolic computation 19:05:12 rdococ, well i mean at this stage it's not actually true 19:05:13 but it's eager enough to warn you 19:05:18 Yes 19:05:27 e.g. (x^y)^z is not true for general real exponents 19:05:56 it's not? 19:06:19 (x^y)^z = x^(y+z)? 19:06:21 ((-1)^2)^0.5 is not equal to (-1)^1 19:06:23 I can't remember 19:06:37 you need to add them, right? 19:06:55 No, that's for multiplying exponents of equal bases 19:06:58 \oren\: What vuln? 19:07:02 Also check the date, just in case 19:07:07 huh... 19:07:15 the issue with doing e.g. the 1/0 trick you mentioned is that if you specify all these substitution rules you can evaluate 1/0 to get contradictory values 19:07:16 then what is (x^y)^z? 19:07:29 @PH Yes, thus indeterminate forms 19:07:29 Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? . 19:07:32 it's (x^y)^z, that's all you can say 19:07:38 oh 19:07:41 okay 19:08:49 infact, why not make the numbers mathematical symbols? 19:08:59 <\oren\> prooftechnique: i just got a work email saying dont use emacs 19:09:22 <\oren\> i use nano anyway 19:11:14 who knew sqrt(-1) could be so useful 19:12:10 You have heard of Cayley-Dickson construction? 19:12:19 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%E2%80%93Dickson_construction 19:12:41 no i havent 19:12:46 would you recommend it? 19:12:49 yeah but after a certai point the results of that can't be called 'numbers' 19:13:04 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski%27s_high_school_algebra_problem 19:13:06 check this one out 19:13:07 this is really fun 19:13:13 Yes, true, but the first few steps provide useful constructs 19:13:31 The Geometric Algebra is much more powerful, however, in my own personal opinion 19:13:52 -!- Reece` has joined. 19:17:29 Anyway, if I could ask for feedback 19:17:43 Is the current specification of Daoyu understandable and clear 19:17:46 <\oren\> that list of axioms is bullshit. i was taught plenty about subtraction and negative numbrts in high school 19:17:46 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit). 19:18:15 isn't subtraction just adding negative numbers? 19:18:36 \oren\: I'm leaning toward work pranks on that email 19:19:14 <\oren\> right. but that list is missing --x = x for example 19:19:51 <\oren\> and x - y = x + -y 19:20:03 :/ 19:20:06 true 19:26:29 <\oren\> it shoukd be called tarskis alternate universe high school problem, where subtraction is a university discipline 19:29:25 <\oren\> ofc one day we might consider complex numbers to be a high school subject 19:29:32 they are 19:29:42 <\oren\> not in canada 19:29:51 Strange 19:31:52 -!- me2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:32:49 -!- me2 has joined. 19:38:01 rdococ: α-expressions are fun 19:38:11 (s/// is a well-known α-expression) 19:38:31 (y/// is less well-known, and m// is not used at all) 19:43:43 -!- vanila has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:56:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:03:44 what about a language where there are no conditionals and you have to execute arbritary code stored in lookup tables 20:06:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:09:32 ais523: have anyone examined how densely you can embed information in underload source code such that the underload program can decode it? 20:09:52 b_jonas: it's possible to manage at least one bit per character 20:10:07 ais523: I think you can manage two bits per char at least, but I haven't made a proof 20:10:08 IIRC somewhere oerjan made a parser for strings of : and ^ 20:10:28 going higher there isn't an obvious method, but that doesn't mean there isn't a non-obvious one 20:10:29 I should examine it, I don't understand underload enough and this seems like a thing that lets me explore it 20:11:14 well reaching three bits per character is obviously impossible 20:11:20 ais523: I think I'll try to decode strings made of ~ ! : * 20:11:24 so the true value is ≥ 1 and < 3 20:11:32 ais523: you could receive fractional bits 20:11:40 b_jonas: !~~ and ~~! are eqivalent 20:11:45 and it doesn't have to be stateless, if parenthesis are involved 20:11:46 b_jonas: sure, I expect the number of bits to be fractional 20:11:59 also ~~ and :! are equivalent 20:12:12 and :*:* is equivalent to :::*** 20:12:17 ais523: no no, if the string (supposed you know the length) is parenthisized, you execute it, then the characters get pushed into the stack, and you can execute them one by one 20:12:25 ais523: as in, you can use a to parenthisize them 20:12:41 b_jonas: a parameterizes an entire stack element, it doesn't break the string into characters 20:12:49 ~~ and :! are equivalent; (~~) and (:!) are also equivalent 20:12:53 and both equivalent to () 20:12:58 you, but ^ opens the parenthesis, doesn't it? 20:13:14 b_jonas: it just moves the contents of the TOS onto the program 20:13:27 (~~)^ is equivalent to (:!)^ is equivalent to ~~ is equivalent to :! 20:13:32 none of them do anything :-P 20:13:42 -!- Caesura has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:13:51 ais523: yes, and if that element it moved is a parenthesisized block, then doesn't executing the block push each of the elements to the stack? 20:14:07 b_jonas: you did notice my comment about underload to you above, right? 20:14:31 b_jonas: if you move ((~~)) to the program you end up with (~~) in the program, which then pushes (~~) to the stack 20:14:32 oerjan: ah... I didn't 20:14:45 can you give an example of what you're /expecting/ to happen? it feels like you have some sort of fundamental misconception here 20:14:51 that rule 110 program is the :^ parser 20:16:02 come to think of it, I suspect that strings of :^a are parseable 20:16:07 I'd be pretty surprised if they weren't 20:16:19 oh, except if you have a then ^ 20:16:22 with nothing in between 20:16:25 as that's a no-op 20:16:27 ais523: no. right. 20:16:59 i concluded : and a were parseable, but more complicated than what i did, and also uglier. 20:17:00 and strings like a:^ would also cause problems 20:17:16 but no other 2 character combinations work 20:17:19 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:17:24 :a is obviously parseable, because the result of a never affects the second stack element 20:17:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 20:17:40 meaning that you can create a sentinel value that does to act as your zero 20:17:40 ais523: I expect that the program (xy) puts x and y to the stack (x on top), so (xy)!^ will try to execute y, and (xy)~!^ will try to execute x 20:18:00 b_jonas: ah, right, your problem is that the stack isn't a stack of characters 20:18:03 it's a stack of strings 20:18:12 (xy) pushes a single element, xy, to the stack 20:18:17 then ^ moves that element as a whole into the program 20:18:22 sure, it's a stack of strings because ((xy)) pushes a single string (xy) to the stack 20:18:38 normally we put parens around each stack element when discussing Underload 20:18:39 doesn't executing a parenthesis open it to the stack? 20:18:42 i forgot that S is useless, so you have only 8 usable chars, so clearly 3 bits is impossible, right 20:18:47 oh... 20:18:52 what the heck is the point of that? 20:18:53 oerjan: and ( and ) have to be paired 20:18:57 why doesn't it open the parens 20:19:04 -!- Kaynato has joined. 20:19:05 b_jonas: because that would be an entirely different language 20:19:08 I mean, if you don't want to open the parens, you can just a^ instead of ^ 20:19:27 actually in Underlambda I'm going the other way, removing S 20:19:45 this makes underload much harder to program 20:19:47 this allows you to optimize code both inside the stack and inside the program 20:19:48 and indeed very different 20:19:48 it becomes a pure functional language because the stack elemenets are entirely opaque 20:20:29 ais523: ( and ) pairing is not _really_ a problem as i think that gives only o(something) contribution to the no. of bits. 20:20:32 ais523: yep 20:20:34 crazy 20:20:42 but any nop like :! is fatal 20:21:01 b_jonas: Underload's meant to be about function representation, not string manipulation 20:21:18 ais523: it's not "string manipulation", more like tree manipulation 20:21:23 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:21:34 because it manipulates elements that are either letters or parenthisized trees 20:21:45 it doesn't manipulate individual characters of a tree 20:21:52 right 20:21:55 actually Overload worked like that 20:22:12 did I accidentally invent a language? 20:23:19 perhaps, I don't like it though :-( 20:23:23 what about a language where a sentence is an array of words 20:23:26 the set of commands doesn't make much sense in this language 20:23:27 and a word has a meaning 20:23:31 you'd probably want a string compare command too, at least 20:23:36 e.g. 20:23:43 the cat ate the dog 20:23:56 cat is the noun, ate is the verb, dog is the subject, or victim 20:24:17 ais523: no no, not a string compare command 20:24:25 I'd want a nop command though, probably space and newline 20:24:42 make that space, tab, lf, cr 20:24:58 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 20:25:22 b_jonas: this is like having C, plus a command that breaks a function pointers into individual asm opcodes in the function it points to 20:25:30 and yet have no way to determine what those opcodes are other than executing them 20:26:22 I'm reminded to two obfus in other languages: the lua one I wrote that uses the same string as both code and data so that if you try to tamper with the code then the output breaks completely, and pts's obfu in dc which uses the same strings as both code and data: dc can't really examined things so I thought that was impossible, but it turns out dc has a length command that queries the length of a string 20:27:28 ais523: yes, I can see why you don't like that concept 20:27:51 it's just a mix of paradigms that doesn't make sense 20:27:56 it's inelegant 20:27:57 yep 20:28:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: dinner). 20:29:44 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:32:39 ais523? 20:32:50 he left. 20:33:44 `quote raspberry 20:34:05 No output. 20:36:11 `quote berry 20:36:13 471) lets not wander around the mulberry bush beating our heads 20:36:29 fungot: do you know any berries? 20:36:29 int-e: ( and i've only seen ocean from far above in a positive light) 20:36:39 `quote berri 20:36:41 No output. 20:37:02 perhaps it was deleted. 20:37:02 so in the description of Underload at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Commands , the stack top is on the right, not on the left like other such descriptions usually denote, right? 20:37:18 that sounds very malancholic, fungot. 20:37:18 int-e: the description sounds like fnord talk to me instead 20:37:21 fungot, which episode? 20:37:21 b_jonas: proposals only last 15 minutes of fame? guile? you don't get special food, but they look exactly the same for cl, not fnord two of those 20:37:37 fungot: have you read the SIGBOVIK 2016 proceedings? 20:37:37 b_jonas: http://www.fourmilab.ch/ hotbits/ with fnord key and browser with fnord?) has a problem. whom should it be: 20:37:39 b_jonas: i thought on the right was standard forth-notation? 20:37:58 Oh, SIGBOVIK is today. 20:38:12 oerjan: I don't know 20:38:14 fools! 20:38:28 int-e: will you show them all? 20:38:41 oerjan: no I'm just waiting for this stupid day to pass. 20:39:58 oerjan: I guess top on right makes sense in a forth/postscript-like language where lots of statements are literal so just push on the stack, so the stack often looks similar to the code 20:40:08 int-e: What's wrong with today? 20:40:15 `olist 1032 20:40:16 olist 1032: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 20:40:31 b_jonas: anyway half the point of the notation we've settled on is that it makes it easy to see underload execution as a program transformation - where stack elements don't need to be distinguished from the program. 20:40:50 oerjan: right 20:41:07 and it seems that http://www.cs.cornell.edu/icfp/task.htm puts the stack top on the right as well 20:41:30 april fools! 20:41:35 this is great 20:41:38 it's just not so obvious from descriptions like this because most operations would make sense to define with the inputs in any order 20:41:40 int-e: #ircpuzzles is a good way to spend April 1 (and 2 and 3 and.. well, it usually takes a while to solve them) 20:41:49 and in any case you can permute the stack top elements before running the command 20:41:52 (it's a yearly tradition to have puzzles on April 1) 20:41:56 FireFly: HireFly 20:41:57 I am awful at writing documentation] 20:42:01 hachaf 20:42:07 Especially when it's a program which I know how it works 20:42:27 And didn't intend anyone else to use it when I was writing it 20:42:53 noh that was an evil olist 20:44:06 [wiki] [[GML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46714&oldid=40261 * B jonas * (+5) 20:44:16 FireFly: sorry 20:44:58 shachaf: you may have had your fun, but what about YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL? 20:45:15 oerjan: what about it? 20:45:28 it may be in peril tdnh 20:45:58 didn't you just say it was immortal 20:47:00 yes, but not pain resistant 20:47:26 * Taneb is finally writing a page for COMPLEX 20:48:12 * Taneb has largely forgotten the art of wiki page writing 20:51:21 who needs conditionals 20:51:39 * Taneb needs conditionals 20:52:00 you could remove the IF from Lua and it'd still be turing complete 20:53:15 proof: local code = {true = function () print("yay") end, false = function () print("nay") end}; code[3 > 2] 20:53:32 so 20:53:56 say bye to for loops too 20:54:18 and any other non-necessary construct 20:54:34 I will strip Lua and make a turing tarpit called TarLua... or EsoLua... 20:55:03 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:57:42 ais523: it turns out that one thing that confused me about underload is this: in the (stackbefore – stackafter) style description of stack-based language operations, including underload at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Commands , the stack is listed with the top of stack on the right, but this isn't obvious at first. 20:58:08 b_jonas: this is standard for Underload; I'm not sure if it's mentioned on the page 20:58:13 I write it in most of my writing about it though 21:01:25 [wiki] [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46715&oldid=46711 * Iconmaster * (+2538) Got a lot of information from the site onto the wiki 21:02:51 ] 3*9500 21:02:59 -!- evalj has joined. 21:03:02 ] 3*9500 21:03:02 b_jonas: 28500 21:07:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:08:20 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:13:06 Fuzzy String Matching is interesting 21:14:23 [wiki] [[GML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46716&oldid=46714 * Iconmaster * (+10) Stub'd 21:15:50 [wiki] [[Pylongolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46717&oldid=46708 * Iconmaster * (+34) Stub'd 21:15:56 pylongolf 21:15:57 gml 21:16:10 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!). 21:16:11 Do we have a stub template? 21:16:19 I can't be bothered to write this article right now 21:16:27 [wiki] [[Retina]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46718&oldid=46707 * Iconmaster * (+10) Stub'd 21:17:02 -!- iconmaster has joined. 21:19:50 [wiki] [[User:Iconmaster]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46719&oldid=37163 * Iconmaster * (-75) 21:22:41 Hello. Suddenly felt like coming back and helping with some wiki stuff. How's it going? 21:24:25 [wiki] [[Bulan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46720 * Rdococ * (+925) It's still Turing complete. I think. I'll leave the exercise of proving that it's TC up to you. 21:24:58 https://youtu.be/QScVVDwxSWA procrastinating like a pro 21:27:26 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:29:49 <\oren\> i ordered a elektronika mk-61 calculator 21:33:16 -!- iconmaster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:33:40 -!- Reece` has joined. 21:33:52 Taneb: yes. 21:35:39 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit). 21:39:27 \oren\: A soviet calculator, neat. 21:40:11 oerjan, how do I apply the stub template 21:40:35 myname: NOW WE KNOW 21:40:50 Taneb: {{stub}} 21:40:59 HTH 21:41:06 TDH 21:44:19 -!- Reece` has joined. 21:44:46 [wiki] [[COMPLEX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46721 * Taneb * (+345) Start making this article 21:44:49 -!- Reece` has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:46:40 [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46722&oldid=46691 * Taneb * (+14) /* C */ Add COMPLEX 21:47:42 [wiki] [[Nathan van Doorn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46723&oldid=35933 * Taneb * (+13) Add COMPLEX 21:48:01 I'm attempting to make a regex family called Irgex, with support for 2D matching and TC matching and all of these nice things 21:48:19 But with the core subset being efficient 21:48:34 actually, there are 2d regex 21:48:37 Taneb: Why limit it to the Gaussian Integers? Why not allow real values in general? 21:48:40 myname: I've heard 21:48:50 myname: Or 2D bnf. It's documented on catseye 21:50:05 i actually used these in my thesis 21:50:20 well, mentioned 21:52:46 myname: I'm trying to find different classes of expressions 21:53:09 The first I define is the π-expression, which is the traditional x+y, -z, [i], etc. 21:53:36 There's also the α-expression, which is a generalization of s/// and y/// 21:53:38 hppavilion[1], reasons 21:53:47 Taneb: Ah, very good choice 21:54:10 I'm stuck there though. Are there any other fairly general types of expression? 21:56:22 For a group of esoteric language creators, I'm surprised that the wiki doesn't auto-generate the list of languages... 21:56:59 zgrep: That'd be too straightforward 21:57:04 All pages that are programming languages should be put in a category (or tagged, or something) "language", and the list would automatically update... 21:57:07 zgrep: Also, we have pages that /aren't/ esolangs 21:57:14 zgrep: Ah 21:57:37 zgrep: Do you know of any other types of expression besides the traditional arithmetical and x///? 21:57:53 hppavilion[1]: Not sure exactly what you mean... 21:58:08 zgrep: You know s/// expressions? 21:58:16 Regular expressions? 21:58:20 (I call them alpha-expressions) 21:58:24 Yes, but I don't know what an expression is... 21:58:27 zgrep: Those fall under arithmetical, actually 21:58:53 zgrep: An expression is some predefined set of symbols combined with more expressions, basically 21:58:59 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:59:06 Ah. How... how... [insert word here]. 21:59:18 zgrep: Oh, that's good 22:00:09 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:04:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:08:07 [wiki] [[Fuun DNA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46724 * B jonas * (+3506) Created page with "'''Fuun DNA''' is a self-modifying string-rewriting language. It was defined for the task of the ICFP contest 2007 (“Morph Endo”). == Description == The DNA of the extr..." 22:10:11 -!- boily has joined. 22:10:17 @metar CYUL 22:10:17 CYUL 012200Z 27020G27KT 15SM FEW030 FEW045 10/03 A2941 RMK CU1SC2 CU TR SLP963 22:10:24 @metar ENVA 22:10:24 ENVA 012150Z 08003KT 9999 SCT045 BKN060 04/M03 Q1011 RMK WIND 670FT 18006KT 22:10:26 -!- earendel has joined. 22:11:34 -!- tromp has joined. 22:13:13 boily: there was snow on the ground this morning 22:13:29 WE DON'T HAVE SNOW ANYMORE! WE'RE FREE! MWAH AH AH AH AH AH! 22:13:36 * boily knocks on wood 22:13:38 new snow, that is. there's some old in parts. 22:14:20 I haven't seen snow since... last Tuesday 22:14:25 But that was up on some high hills 22:15:38 Tanelle. there's snow where you are at? 22:15:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:16:35 @metar EGNT 22:16:35 EGNT 012150Z 18010KT 150V220 9999 SCT023 08/04 Q1007 22:16:50 boily, it was in the Lake District 22:17:06 @metar KOAK 22:17:06 KOAK 012153Z 25012KT 10SM FEW025 17/08 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP222 T01670083 22:17:11 The bit of England with things that are almost mountains 22:17:38 Taneb: Is that like the Lake Union district in Seattle? 22:18:06 You did mention something about using Seattle public transit the other day. 22:18:40 I distinctly mentioned not using Seattle public transit 22:21:13 So how do you get around the Lake Union district? 22:21:25 this reddit chat thing is pretty cool 22:21:31 [wiki] [[Fuun RNA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46725 * B jonas * (+1034) Created page with "'''Fuun RNA''' is a graphic description language. It was defined for the task of the ICFP contest 2007 (“Morph Endo”). == Description == The RNA of the extraterrestrial..." 22:21:34 i've used seattle public transit. i think. 22:21:35 shachaf, solid boots 22:21:41 the room i ended up in got two pianists who are now playing live 22:22:11 Phantom_Hoover: What's this chat thing? 22:22:15 oerjan: how was it 22:22:22 oerjan: was it before i was born or something 22:22:23 shachaf, it's the button with the bird on it 22:22:40 Phantom_Hoover: Can I find out about it without logging in? 22:22:44 Logging in is scow. 22:22:59 shachaf: were you born in 1996? 22:23:13 no, before 22:23:17 because i'm old :'( 22:23:21 shocking 22:23:35 dinochaf 22:23:46 [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46726&oldid=46722 * B jonas * (+30) + Fuun DNA, RNA 22:24:51 shachaf, not without scraping a bunch of idiots trying to work it out 22:25:23 * boily carbon dates shachaf 22:25:42 whoa whoa whoa 22:26:01 [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46727&oldid=46672 * B jonas * (-95) 22:26:10 you can't just carbon date people 22:26:28 of course you can. 22:26:40 oerjan: not more than one at a time, if you're carbonogamous 22:27:07 i think you are switching the wrong part of the word tdnh 22:27:26 look 22:27:35 quantity over quality 22:27:44 i got a pun quota to meet here 22:28:23 oerjan, ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal has a webchat link to here through qwebirc. I prefer the kiwi irc webchat to qwebirc. Should I replace the webchat link, replace the webchat link but mention qwebirc as an alternative, add a kiwi irc link as an alternative, or do nothing? 22:28:23 well you're doing the pun equivalent of cockney rhyming 22:28:48 oerjan: ok fine 22:28:49 Note that kiwi irc doesn't require people to fill a captcha, which can be considered either an advantage or a disadvantage. 22:29:04 oerjan: you can only carbon date people if you're carbonogamous 22:29:13 Do we have a category for a language that is known to be weaker than Turing complete? 22:29:23 b_jonas: PDA? 22:29:27 Fuun RNA is not turing complete. 22:29:38 boily: it's not equivalent to a PDA 22:29:42 shachaf: the original pun was 0.9 shachafs, but the remastered version... 0.55 shachafs. 22:29:47 b_jonas: if there are multiple working webchats you should probably list all of them and put your favourite first 22:29:52 b_jonas: fuun? 22:30:22 boily: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_RNA although that page doesn't tell enough to glaen the computational strength, you have to read the specs 22:30:46 fungot: glaen? 22:30:46 boily: oh yeah?! well you're a funny guy, though.) 22:31:11 ais523: ok. I'll test if it still works first though. 22:31:53 b_jonas: i thought the one that was listed was freenode's official webchat. they've blocked others on occasion i think. 22:32:01 (well, at least one.) 22:32:18 boily: what's the threshold for a mapoling 22:32:33 oerjan: yes, qwebirc is what the freenode admins themselves run, and they suggest it on their homepage 22:33:07 oerjan: as in, freenode runs a qwebirc webchat server itself which lets you connect to freenode 22:33:25 Do we have a category for a language that is known to be weaker than Turing complete? <-- not a general one, no 22:33:34 But I prefer kiwiirc. Advantages include that it lets you connect to any irc network. 22:33:35 we have specific sub-TC categories 22:33:44 ais523: right 22:33:45 and most sub-TC languages are either in one of them or very very weak 22:34:09 fungot: glaen? <-- like glean, but you might get a leprechaun curse if you're not careful. 22:34:10 oerjan: oh ok. they are comparable. the resistance is useless. it's not all that magical.), tell me 22:34:28 shachaf: somewhere below 0.5, give or take a few subjective centishachafs. 22:34:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:34:49 is this a logarithmic unit or what 22:34:57 ais523: Fuun RNA is very weak in some sense, yes 22:35:12 But it has a high constant factor 22:35:44 I'm gonna make a big file'o buzzwords 22:35:44 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 22:35:54 It can be executed in linear amount of memory, but the constant factor is quite high because it involves 600x600 pixel 4 channel 8 bit image canvases. 22:36:03 shachaf: it's a semilogarithmic one hth 22:36:18 One that can be used to generate language descriptions automatically. Then I'll make it so Hackego can spit them out 22:36:18 At least so I think. I'm not quote sure how Fuun RNA works really. 22:36:24 You'd have ot read the specs. 22:36:33 But I'm quite sure it's weaker than turing 22:36:59 boily: how does that work fcir 22:36:59 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 22:37:07 Does kiwi webchat work or what? 22:37:14 wob_jonas: it seems so 22:37:55 b_jonas: linear memory fits the bounded-storage machine category 22:38:25 shachaf: it's logarithmic for the most part, but then it gets linear for things approaching zero. avoids problems with derivatives and infinite slopes. 22:38:32 oerjan: which category is that? link? 22:38:49 wait 22:38:53 ah 22:38:54 it's an unofficial one 22:38:56 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Bounded-storage_machine 22:39:09 the last edit was me trying to get rid of it... 22:39:19 That doesn't really say what it means, and I'd think it means constant bounded 22:39:28 ok, enough of this webchat 22:39:33 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 22:39:55 Fuun RNA works really. 22:39:55 003624 < b_jonas> You'd have ot read the specs. 22:40:17 url is https://kiwiirc.com/client/chat.freenode.net/#esoteric by the way 22:40:37 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 22:41:37 What is the maximum length hackego can send as a message? 22:41:58 <\oren\> i was born in 1993 22:41:59 -!- woboily has joined. 22:42:14 he\\oren\. 22:42:16 boily: 15:40 Oracle deprecated the Java browser plugin this year. :-( 22:42:20 b_jonas: ok you want linear bounded automata 22:42:24 15:40 javascript more like java's crypt 22:42:33 * boily mapoles shachaf 22:42:37 ok 22:42:40 gotta calibrate this thing 22:42:46 (That moment when you search for how do do something in bash for HackEgo, but you look up how to do it in HackEgo specifically and thus get no relevant results) 22:42:53 What's with xkcd today? All it says is “The xkcd April 1st comic is currently experiencing technical difficulties.” and shows wednesday's comic. 22:43:05 -!- woboily has quit (Client Quit). 22:43:43 b_jonas: Either the xkcd April 1st comic is currently experiencing technical difficulties, or that's the joke 22:44:17 oerjan: yes, but Fuun RNA is probably actually weaker than a PDA (I'm not quite sure), and definitely weaker than arbitrary linear bounded machine, probably can be executed in linear time. 22:44:39 `` cat /dev/urandom | tr -dc 'a-zA-Z0-9' | fold -w 200 | head -n 1 22:44:41 hppavilion[1]: that can't be the joke. there have never been a MWF with no strip. 22:44:50 hppavilion[1]: that feels weird. Randall always had nice Apriljokes. 22:44:50 b_jonas: Exactly? 22:44:57 boily: I know... 22:45:01 Mx6laZBPgxJpUlcgwwSY1G7kHxefQnSM6PVVhkb9G5OJBeDSnhKXXXBMa5v7MnG7SSirBK2SYXdYRZT9lpdeOeOS3YVRWNQ22lY7uFjAjHdf3nMFqs3UqtC6Ob5aH5kTf5bGLDUvKwDq3gJrJdZdPHr8YDxO0dFXH7hFHmiElMFP7vuRXrUUZOYFXQso6I9NSLguieFJ 22:45:06 And xkcd is never experiencing technical difficulties. 22:45:14 I think there's probably a comic, it's just well hidden so I can't see it. 22:45:37 What is the maximum length hackego can send as a message? <-- 350 bytes 22:45:38 One of my teachers shaved his glorious lumberjack beard, making him look 10 years younger so he could pretend to be a new student at the beginning of class by just sitting at a desk 22:45:42 oerjan: OK 22:45:52 But the problem is, either the explainxkcd.com folks can't see it either, or for some reason they thought the joke of hiding it is funny and don't want to spoil it (yet). 22:45:58 oerjan: I'm pondering making `longcat, which prints out multiple messages 22:46:02 Wait, that won't work... 22:46:16 Unless HackEgo has some direct-to-IRC command 22:46:27 there's a longcat? 22:46:34 `longcat 22:46:45 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: longcat: not found 22:46:49 b_jonas: I somehow did that without realizing the pun xD 22:47:04 hppavilion[1]: oh, you're "pondering making" 22:47:11 whew 22:47:13 b_jonas: `longcat would be like cat, but it prints multiple messages to show the whole file. 22:47:21 b_jonas: anyway, most of the categories are upper bounds, so it's fine to be weaker. 22:47:26 hppavilion[1]: yeah, but it doesn't exist 22:47:30 b_jonas: Which would have potential for abuse 22:47:34 hppavilion[1]: we have a command that pastes to a website instead 22:47:37 b_jonas: But would also be useful for long HackEgo messages 22:47:52 b_jonas: The problem is I don't think there's a way to make HackEgo print more than one message 22:48:01 oerjan: but the wiki says the linear bounded automata is an equivalence actegory, not an upper bound 22:48:59 Unless HackEgo has some direct-to-IRC command <-- nope. 22:49:01 anyway, if any of you figure out which category applies (for which you may have to read and ponder the spec very carefully, for it's an esolang so the comp class may not be obvious, even after the definition), and read the wiki descriptions of categories, feel free to add it 22:49:09 oerjan: Didn't think so 22:50:22 hppavilion[1]: jevalbot is also bounded output, it won't print more than 6 lines of output per evaluation command (in my default config and in evalj; j-bot has the limit raised to I don't know how many lines) 22:50:52 b_jonas: OK 22:51:39 ] ,.i._65 NB. example 22:51:39 b_jonas: 64 22:51:39 b_jonas: 63 22:51:39 b_jonas: 62 22:51:39 b_jonas: 61 22:51:39 b_jonas: 60 22:51:40 b_jonas: ... 22:52:07 You can print 6 full lines instead of an ellipsis in the sixth line, but you can't print more than six 22:52:12 ...do we have two different bots specifically for evaluating J 22:52:20 Taneb: no, it's the same bot, two instances 22:52:26 evalj, source: 22:52:26 b_jonas, jevalbot source is http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz 22:52:30 b_jonas: That's even worse 22:52:31 j-bot, source: 22:52:31 b_jonas, jevalbot source is http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz 22:52:46 b_jonas: Why. Why do we have two identical bots? 22:52:49 b_jonas, I think I was using "bot" to mean "account associated with an instance of a bot" 22:52:51 b_jonas: What is the reason? 22:53:28 We used to have three different irc bots that can evaluate J, namely besides jevalbot, buubot used to be able to evaluate it (I wrote the J evaluator plugin myself), plus NotJack had a bot he wrote in J. 22:53:56 hppavilion[1]: evalj is my instance but I don't run it constantly, only very occasionally start it up and then stop it within a day when I turn off my home computer 22:53:59 Can EgoBot? If not, why not? 22:54:22 Taneb: it would probably be possible to install a J interpreter to hackego 22:54:33 I can't get my IRC client to work for some reason... 22:54:34 we could even do it as a user 22:54:42 but it would output only 1 line per command of course 22:55:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 22:58:00 I'm heading to bed now 22:58:02 Goodnight! 22:59:28 bonne tanuitb! 22:59:37 @time Taneb 22:59:40 @tineb 22:59:51 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:02:35 @localtime Taneb 23:02:46 darn. no CTCP. 23:02:50 @localtime shachaf 23:02:52 Local time for shachaf is Fri Apr 1 16:02:50 2016 23:10:58 @localtime lambdabot 23:10:58 I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time? 23:11:02 Yes. 23:11:22 @localtime zgrep 23:11:24 @localtime zgrep 23:11:25 Local time for zgrep is Fri, 01 Apr 2016 23:11:25 GMT 23:11:31 Heh. 23:18:18 [wiki] [[NetBytes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46728 * Iconmaster * (+4415) Created page with "'''NetBytes''' is a language created by [[User:iconmaster]] in [[:Category:2016|2016]]. It severely limits the available memory and program length of programs, instead requir..." 23:19:38 -!- iconmaster has joined. 23:20:06 Well, it's been years, but I'm finally making another esolang. 23:20:29 iconmaster: Cool! 23:20:39 [wiki] [[User:Iconmaster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46729&oldid=46719 * Iconmaster * (+64) 23:21:25 So, what's been going on here lately? 23:22:20 iconmaster: Nothing much 23:23:28 Ugh 23:23:39 For some reason, my IRC client won't connect properly. It times out 23:23:45 I have a setup to handle PINGs 23:23:54 But I get an ERROR eventualy 23:23:59 s/l/ll/ 23:26:16 ELLOL. 23:26:59 Ellol to you too! 23:27:50 First issue I found: No \r\n 23:32:28 -!- tromp has joined. 23:36:56 -!- p34k has quit. 23:37:22 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined. 23:37:37 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:37:52 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined. 23:38:01 YES 23:38:03 IT WORKED 23:39:20 hppavellon[t]! 23:39:24 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:39:31 boily: It can't chat yet 23:39:35 boily: But it receives 23:40:22 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined. 23:40:24 Test 23:40:44 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:41:02 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined. 23:41:05 Retest 23:41:33 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:41:55 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined. 23:42:07 Testing, testing, 123 23:42:18 YES! 23:42:29 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:42:38 That's enough testing on this channel 23:42:51 you lack ambition. test more! FOR SCIENCE! 23:43:22 boily: *Fine* 23:43:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:43:45 :D 23:43:47 -!- int-e has left ("BUGGY CHICKEN"). 23:43:47 -!- int-e has joined. 23:44:23 -!- Kaynato has joined. 23:45:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:46:00 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:46:36 helloily 23:47:41 quinthellopia. 23:47:52 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined. 23:48:29 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:42 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined. 23:48:55 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:51:31 bulan 23:51:52 hellodococ 23:52:48 what haps today 23:53:34 Does HackEgo evaluate underload? 23:54:08 ^ul didn't this? 23:54:09 ...bad insn! 23:54:25 Oh, fungot, what won't you do? 23:54:25 prooftechnique: hm. that's not hardcore enough for you... but unfortunately, regardless of whether i _think_ i want a glass of merlot. 23:54:36 ^ul (test string)::** 23:55:16 Hmm 23:55:41 ^ul (test string)::**S 23:55:41 test stringtest stringtest string 23:55:45 There we go 2016-04-02: 00:00:56 hi 00:01:06 rdochelloc. 00:01:14 -!- jaboja has joined. 00:01:43 quintopia: you know that kind of feeling when the features you've been slaving on for the past months suddenly stop working for no apparent reason? 00:10:58 lololkkkkk 00:11:31 rdococ: Hi 00:11:55 `tomfoolery @ 00:12:13 boily: lolol 00:12:19 what 00:12:20 weird 00:12:29 ​|a+b@| = { √(a²-b²) if a²-b² ≥ 0 ; i√(a²-b²) if a²-b² < 0 } 00:12:31 what the? being hacked? 00:12:36 those messages weren't showing up 00:12:45 ...???????? 00:13:01 and then i opened a new terminal and connected again and suddenly it turns out they had been 00:13:07 hi 00:13:38 and rdococ hies again. 00:13:48 this chännel seems to be temporally misaligned... 00:14:27 well tell me all about these features 00:14:43 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 00:14:44 `wisdom 00:14:46 `wisdom 00:14:47 didn't start the day very well, but at least I got stuff back in order. superhackmode overclocking! and now I'm completely drained. 00:14:57 callforjudgemello: 00:15:03 ​`mk/Everything's better with `mk. 00:15:06 eto/Eto is the ageless laughing first minister. 00:15:20 what does this program do again? 00:15:21 -!- tromp has joined. 00:15:27 quintopia: my team and I work with everything related to interchange of information between dentists, labs, manufacturers, production centers... 00:15:29 `wisdom 00:15:41 which features broke? 00:15:46 zkstr/zkstr is a common consonant cluster at the start of Russian words, see eg. http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/metro-typo-2 00:15:48 It's surprisingly difficult to get a rubber egg to type things on my keyboard by bouncing on it... 00:16:02 zkstr... heheheh. :D 00:16:07 rdococ: So do you have any interest in that hacking game? 00:16:25 quintopia: subcontracting some kinds of orders. our software supports crowns, bridges, implants, bite splints, orthodontic models, partials, full dentures... if a dentist can jack that stuff in your mouth, we do it. 00:16:41 We could generalize it to a GameOS (not a real OS, of course. I'm far too stupid for that.) 00:17:17 quintopia: some order types got suddenly broken because we've been working on new ID tracking features in the background, with more complex management features. 00:17:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:17:55 `? le//rn 00:17:57 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 00:18:00 le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. 00:18:10 `? learn 00:18:11 ​`learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] [s][punctuation] [...] 00:18:18 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:18:20 zgrep 00:18:21 quintopia: so I committed atrocities in our codebase. there's duplicative code repetetition, but at least it has the merit to be explicit. and properly spelled! 00:18:22 ^ 00:19:09 (there are some code snippets we like to circle around on Slack. sometimes, programmers aren't in the sanest of mindsets, and you can glimpse half-self-discussions in comments.) 00:19:23 repetetetetetetition 00:19:51 will you get a chance to dry out the code later? 00:20:08 after the release! 00:20:32 hppavilion[1] 00:20:54 -!- dingbat has joined. 00:21:14 the softeng VP agrees that whole part is bonkers, and that we should rig it with shaped explosives as soon as we can. 00:21:51 zgrep: Esoprocessor? 00:21:56 hppavilion[1]: Hm? 00:22:00 Ah. 00:22:06 zgrep: I don't think anybody has made one yet 00:22:15 zgrep: Should we? 00:22:21 We could try. 00:22:24 (Barring unintentional ones) 00:22:27 quintopia: the problem is that the first layers were quickly hacked as an afterthought by interns some years ago, then left to ferment and sediment. 00:22:41 zgrep: It should be neither Von Neumann nor Harvard 00:26:17 quintopia: I shouldn't complain much, really. all in all, it's a pretty sweet gig I got, and devs aren't treated as meager code monkeys. 00:26:34 (I'm informally known as the Electric Octopus guy instead :D) 00:26:49 are you the faster coder? 00:27:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:28:08 quintopia: Octopus because I like Japanese culture, Electric because in dry weather I'm prone to ESD. 00:28:24 zgrep: How about.... 00:29:07 There is a bus from the memory to the CPU AND the ALU 00:29:11 -!- jaboja has joined. 00:29:28 And from the CPU to the output, and the input to the CPU 00:29:33 s/CPU/CU/ 00:30:11 boily: is octopus the eternal symbol of japan? 00:30:22 zgrep: I want it to be stored-program unless there's some more eso idea 00:30:29 it is, in my cow orkers' minds... 00:30:40 cow workers? 00:30:41 geez 00:30:46 cow orkers 00:30:46 is that how you treat your co workers? 00:30:51 Coworkers are dual to workers, right? 00:30:52 friends who ork cows 00:31:00 rdococ: our team lead is Goat :D 00:31:08 lol 00:31:46 quintopia: Ew... 00:31:49 we have emoji injokes. a loaf of bread symbolizes acceptance. an orange (fruit) means you are late. 00:32:14 is that why your steam avatar is orangey 00:32:21 we sacrifice eggplants when we cast votes to know what we are going to eat for lunch. 00:32:31 ah no, that's a kaki. much difference. 00:34:16 Taunt (Characters you control that don't have taunt can't be attacked.) 00:35:58 tswett: What kind of architecture would an esoteric processor use? 00:36:04 wait. steam avatar. I got oranges over there... 00:36:07 Obviously not Von Neumann or Harvard 00:36:10 >_>'... <_<;... 00:39:24 https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~wl/icprojects/papers/reduceron08.pdf might be of interest here 00:41:08 what does a lime symbolize 00:42:02 my color is blue 00:42:04 we don't have any lime emoji yet. if I remember to, I'll add one next Monday ^^ 00:42:05 I think 00:42:16 rdococ: in which context twh 00:42:20 chat 00:42:43 your name was kaki in chat, so I assumed that's what it meant 00:45:31 what does a lima bean represent 00:47:57 what does a snail represent 00:48:15 I think we have a chili emoji somewhere. haven't been used much afaik. 00:48:27 no snails either. lots of cats on the other hand. 00:49:02 quintopia: Acute angles and judging books by their covers, respectively. 00:49:15 there's the Bell of Shame, the Kleenex Box of Bad Pun Retribution... 00:50:51 what does the blurry face of mr. boily represent 00:50:56 Why are there squirrels? 00:51:15 eh? there's a blurry face of me? 00:52:00 everyone's favorite emoji 00:52:59 -!- Reece` has joined. 00:53:12 -!- Reece` has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:53:43 un hamburger 00:53:48 -!- Reece` has joined. 00:53:58 boily: My family has in-jokes in the form of finite strings of english letters and punctuation 00:54:02 there's a custom boilyface emoji we have. generally used when someone does something boilylike... 00:54:05 (space is punctuation here) 00:54:19 I give you a hamburger. the world is in sepia. a mime cries. 00:54:40 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit). 00:54:59 -!- Reece` has joined. 00:56:53 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit). 00:57:15 -!- Reece` has joined. 00:57:32 -!- Reece` has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:57:50 * quintopia receives hamburger 01:03:58 work over, which means boily may sleep soon...but who knows on friday 01:04:16 only about 15 minutes left for me. 01:15:56 -!- andrew_ has joined. 01:19:09 -!- andrew_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:20:29 horizontal time. 'night all! 01:20:47 -!- boily has quit (Quit: LAUDANUM CHICKEN). 01:28:50 -!- Reece` has joined. 01:29:07 -!- Reece` has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:29:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:29:56 -!- Reece` has joined. 01:30:05 -!- Reece` has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:37:03 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:43:56 what does youtube's "snoopavision" look like?" 01:47:53 -!- Kaynato has joined. 01:49:11 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:54:30 -!- Reece` has joined. 01:55:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:12:06 -!- tromp has joined. 02:12:24 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:15:33 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:19:38 rdococ, a 360 video of the video in a theater with Snoop Dogg commenting on it 02:19:49 It's only supported for a few videos 02:24:15 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:28:47 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:29:54 Such as? 02:29:57 I'm very interested 02:31:15 Oh, dang 02:33:59 -!- espes__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:34:55 -!- espes__ has joined. 02:55:29 https://github.com/olofson/audiality2 Making music with this could be interesting 03:04:51 -!- Reece` has joined. 03:07:33 -!- m0li has left ("bye."). 03:09:37 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:14:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:16:13 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:20:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:31:06 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:31:15 -!- j-bot has joined. 03:49:14 how was the first assembler programmed? 03:50:03 it's one of the great unsolved mysteries 03:50:54 I'm trying to think of esoteric versions of assembly instructions 03:51:17 what about MOV but with line numbers 03:51:30 By assembling by hand, I believe. 03:51:48 Which isn't that *hard*, just tedious. 03:52:19 Assembling is a task like any other task. 03:52:32 the assembly would be called ASS, because it should be a real pain in the ass to program in 03:52:49 and before you complain, brainfuck. 03:55:56 I'm afraid ASS is already a subtitle format. 03:57:55 a subtitle format? 03:59:57 meh 04:11:24 -!- jaboja has joined. 04:23:21 [wiki] [[Seriously]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46730&oldid=46208 * Mego * (-50) Heroku is defunct 04:28:12 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:45:08 [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46731&oldid=45779 * Ais523 * (+698) the computational class issues here are actually at least mildly interesting 04:46:11 [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46732&oldid=46731 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Reference implementation */ I know I made a typo, but MediaWiki's response to it was weird 04:47:26 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:49:30 [wiki] [[Talk:BASICER]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46733 * Ais523 * (+388) another "language" with the same computational class 04:54:38 [wiki] [[!Tautologos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46734 * Rdococ * (+1434) !Tautologos == false 04:55:12 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 04:55:16 "language"? 04:55:26 so you're saying my languages aren't really languages? 05:00:03 they probably aren't 05:00:11 but they're better than derivatives of brainfuck 05:03:54 oh come on 05:04:05 Wizards' April Fools joke has a Momir Basic decklist 05:04:14 and talks about how innovative it is for playing only four of the five basic lands 05:04:22 there are 11 basic lands :-( 05:04:32 and they added one only last set! 05:04:39 which surely they should have remembered about 05:06:55 I don't have a good imagination... 05:07:45 rdococ: I wasn't accusing your language of not being a language 05:07:55 I want a good imagination 05:07:57 I was accusing PowerPoint, which has the same computational class, as not being a language 05:08:06 ohhh 05:08:09 i.e. your language and a non-language have the same capabilities 05:09:40 I have no ideas 05:09:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:14:44 Here's an idea 05:14:51 A development platform 05:14:55 Based off of Wikis 05:15:40 Combined with Source Control, of course 05:17:15 b_jonas: THERE we go 05:17:21 b_jonas: THERE's the april first comic 05:19:22 hppavilion[1]: 05:19:40 rdococ: Yes? 05:19:56 yay 05:20:24 esonum 05:21:46 rdococ: Which one? 05:21:57 the yay one 05:22:01 it makes me say yay 05:22:10 Ah 05:22:18 3yay = YAY 05:22:23 rdococ: Why? 05:22:32 rdococ: What does that even mean? 05:22:45 My emotions are way out of whack when I need sleep. 05:22:52 rdococ: SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP 05:22:54 So I act weirdly. Yay! 05:23:43 Error: "SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP" is not a valid instruction 05:24:34 rdococ: *Sigh*. What kind of language are you running? 05:24:41 `SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP 05:24:43 `SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP 05:24:52 Error: SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP is not a valid instruction 05:25:11 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP: not found 05:25:11 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP: not found 05:25:21 lol 05:25:25 rdococ: No, what is the model of your language 05:25:26 ? 05:25:28 Perhaps you mean "sleep" instead? 05:26:25 AbstractRdococFactory()()().sleep(28800000) 05:26:59 What? How do you even call a dictionary? 05:27:20 "hey dictionary come here" 05:27:22 AbstractRdococFactory.sleep? 05:27:39 Haha, very fun--er, I mean, Hey is an invalid instruction. 05:27:46 rdococ: What dictionary? 05:28:01 AbstractRdococFactory is an associative array. 05:28:06 Or dictionary, or table. 05:28:25 rdococ: Really? 05:28:30 It has a few functions, one of which is :CreateRdococ() 05:28:45 To get the current instance of me, use :GetCurrentRdococ() 05:28:53 rdococ: I use CreateRdococ as a curried function 05:29:09 AbstractRdococFactory() <-- Create a new factory 05:29:10 -!- tromp has joined. 05:29:20 () <-- Initialize a new Rdococ 05:29:26 () <-- Get rdococ state 05:29:38 No, AbstractRdococFactory isn't a function to make a new factory. It is one. 05:30:07 What you wanted was AbstractRdococFactory.GetCurrentRdococ.sleep(28800000). 05:30:41 No, I meant AbstractRdococFactory.GetCurrentRdococ().sleep(28800000). 05:31:16 rdococ: AbstractRdococFactory.DestroyCurrentRdococ() 05:31:39 huh, you can overload main in perl 6 05:31:39 Error: Cannot destruct Rdococ without something to take its place 05:31:53 a different main runs depending on which one can parse the command line arguments 05:31:57 rdococ: AbstractRdococFactory.DestroyCurrentRdococ(AbstractComputerFactory.GetCurrentHppavilion()[1]) 05:32:04 ... 05:32:19 s/Hppavilion/Hppavilions/ 05:32:26 * ais523 wonders who was being …ed at 05:32:27 rdococ: AbstractRdococFactory.DestroyCurrentRdococ(AbstractComputerFactory.GetCurrentHppavilion()[1]) 05:32:29 it could have been either of us 05:32:40 Wait, what? 05:32:44 It worked! 05:33:04 rdococ: Yes. Yes it did. 05:33:26 A factory is a pattern to replace constructors (IWINLTM) 05:33:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:33:43 Is a treatment plant a pattern to replace destructors? 05:34:56 you could actually do that in Rust 05:35:06 you can't easily do it in Java or the like though because it's GCed 05:35:27 ais523: DAMN YOU, JAVA 05:35:32 (where "that" = "create an object that has a method you can pass an object to to destroy it in a custom way") 05:35:39 But doesn't that mean I des⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎWhat in the hell? 05:35:49 I nearly got collected by the garbage collector. 05:35:58 Thank goodness I could outrun it. 05:36:04 rdococ: How long did you spend making that message? 05:36:16 rdococ: Correct answer: Far too long 05:36:21 Um...├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎYou mean me? 05:36:33 ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐Stop it, hppavilion[2]!├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐No! 05:36:36 @łe¶ŧ←↓→øþþþþþþþþþþþþþþ 05:36:36 Unknown command, try @list 05:36:38 rdococ: I want to design an esoteric processor 05:36:50 ¡⅛£¼⅜⅝⅞™±° 05:36:51 Who are you ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐talking to? 05:36:56 rdococ: Do you? 05:37:06 S ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐e ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐r ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐i ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐o ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐u ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐s ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐l ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐y 05:37:08 Aaaaaaaaaaaand the joke just expired. 05:37:15 Aww... 05:37:23 I would love to design an esoteric processor. 05:37:27 rdococ: Yay! 05:37:33 * rdococ is now googling a processor 05:37:54 rdococ: I don't want to use Von Neumann or Harvard if I can avoid it, but I still want it to be stored-program, as unstored-program is stupid 05:37:59 what kind of processor? 05:38:07 stored-program? 05:38:24 rdococ: Stored-program means the program is loaded from memory 05:38:29 unstored? 05:38:39 rdococ: Loaded from a separate memory 05:38:47 rdococ: Not really "unstored", but "stored somewhere else" 05:38:48 hmm 05:38:58 what about a processor which doesn't have transistors? 05:39:11 rdococ: We're emulating it, so transistors don't matter 05:39:18 Oh, okay. 05:39:18 rdococ: Look at the diagrams for Von Neumann and Harvard 05:39:59 rdococ: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Von_Neumann_Architecture.svg and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Harvard_architecture.svg 05:40:46 "A central processing unit (CPU) is the electronic circuitry within a computer that carries out the instructions of a computer program by performing the basic arithmetic, logical, control and input/output (I/O) operations specified by the instructions." 05:40:52 You mean that kind of processor? 05:41:21 The ones that have assembly programming languages? 05:41:26 clearly we need an esoteric food processir 05:42:19 Who needs logic? 05:42:37 rdococ: Yes, that kind of processor. But memory is part of this processor 05:42:45 rdococ: Assembly, yes, close enough. 05:42:55 Only a few esometers off 05:43:02 Hahaha. 05:43:10 You mean esounits. 05:43:26 Unless esometer is the name of your esounit. 05:43:31 rdococ: it is 05:43:44 This is getting more and more esoteric as time goes on. Esotime. 05:43:48 rdococ: An esometer measures distance from metal and distance apart relative to the metal 05:44:17 Esolet's esoprefix esoevery esoword esowith esoeso. 05:44:19 Haskell is far above the metal, python less far, C fairly close, ASM a single esometer, and electrons are 0 05:44:33 Interesting. 05:44:35 rdococ: Just the nouns 05:44:37 Um, what about -1? 05:44:43 rdococ: Thue 05:44:47 -2? 05:44:52 rdococ: iota 05:44:56 -3? 05:44:59 s/iota/zot 05:45:08 rdococ: Divide by zero error 05:45:10 i? 05:45:17 3 + 2i? 05:45:17 rdococ: Nope. 05:45:19 @? 05:45:25 3 / 0? 05:45:30 Esometers don't support esonums 05:45:34 0^0? 05:45:36 For some reason 05:45:43 rdococ: Everything 05:45:50 -1230132012391238843? 05:46:14 rdococ: That would be quantum thueskell 05:46:23 Are we actually going to emulate the actual units themselves - something like Logisim, or just draw it? 05:46:37 rdococ: We're going to emulate the units 05:46:46 rdococ: So we'll have a single memory unit 05:46:50 Awesome! 05:47:04 Who needs arithmetic? 05:47:16 rdococ: Do you know of any online notepad++-like collaborative editors? 05:47:21 Or vim-like. Or whatever. 05:47:25 Also, what exactly does control mean? 05:47:46 -!- rdococ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:48:07 Dammit 05:48:45 -!- rdococ has joined. 05:49:06 My connection died on me...? 05:49:11 What was the quit message? 05:49:23 rdococ: Connection reset by Piece 05:49:26 *Pierce 05:49:29 Peer? 05:49:36 rdococ: No, Pierce 05:49:49 Pierce? 05:49:50 rdococ: Pierce is the God of Freenode. He randomly kills connections for fun. 05:49:57 `? pierce 05:49:59 pierce? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 05:50:05 Weird 05:50:05 `tomfoolery pierce 05:50:06 I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking. 05:50:14 You'd think we'd have an entry on Pierce by now 05:50:26 It's definitely a meme and totally not something I just made up. 05:50:31 You should spread it. 05:50:34 Sounds like such a jerk. *gets disconnected* 05:51:01 Really? 05:51:12 So if I ask someone else about it, they'll say he exists? 05:51:42 rdococ: Yes, definitely. 05:51:51 We'll see. 05:52:08 (It's no longer April Fool's where I live, so you're safe) 05:52:23 (6:51:56 AM) Catelite: No 05:52:30 Really? 05:52:39 hppavilion[i]? 05:52:48 rdococ: You can't calculate a range to i 05:53:07 You can't? 05:53:20 rdococ: Of course not 05:53:24 rdococ: So esoprocessor. 05:53:37 Esoprocessor! 05:53:55 rdococ: If you like, we can have complex opcodes if you can figure out a way to accomplish it 05:53:57 I think we shouldn't implement arithmetic. 05:54:14 rdococ: We should, but it should treat all numbers as imaginaries 05:54:19 Hmm... 05:54:26 That would certainly be weird. 05:54:47 So instead of 256 sequential opcodes, we can have something like a 16x16 array of opcodes 05:55:19 rdococ: What should control flow be like? 05:55:25 Hmm... 05:55:43 -!- rdococ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:56:14 -!- rdococ has joined. 05:56:37 -!- rdococ_ has joined. 05:56:43 That's it, I'm connecting an alt to see my disconnect messages. 05:57:00 rdococ: That was a normal disconnect 05:57:05 <\oren\> 06:04 -!- rdococ [~rdococ@unaffiliated/octagonfly] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:57:10 rdococ: Not done by pierce 05:57:12 @_@ 05:57:28 Well, if Pierce does it for the second time, then I know. 05:57:36 Yay! 05:57:55 rdococ: He usually only does it to a user once every few years 05:58:27 :/ 05:58:44 How did he manage to pick me of all people? 05:58:56 rdococ: No, he does it to /all/ users once every 1 or 2 years 05:59:02 rdococ: Not all at once though 05:59:10 rdococ: He has a list that he shuffles then iterates over 05:59:30 How are we going to collaborate on the processor? 05:59:40 rdococ: I don't know 06:00:08 I have made many of farbfeld utility programs. It includes ffpng and pngff (similar to the ones on their webpage but don't require libpng), as well as: ff-back, ff-bright, ff-colorkey, ff-composite, ff-enlarge, ff-info, ff-matrix, ff-padsynth, ff-poster, ff-printf, ff-scanf, ff-solar, ff-turn. 06:00:12 rdococ: There's an "Arithmetic and Logic unit" in most processors. Why don't we also have an "Algebra and Nonsense Unit"? 06:00:32 In fact, we should split the ALU into the AU and the LU 06:01:01 Do we need an AU? 06:01:14 Or, why not make things awkward by removing the LU, but not the AU? 06:02:25 Why not make a GPU that's intended to be used as a CPU? 06:03:02 rdococ: APU 06:03:10 APU? 06:03:23 Audio PU 06:03:34 @_@ 06:04:14 Why not have multiple processors that work together? 06:04:24 rdococ: Multiprocessing? 06:04:50 The RWPU, the APU, the LPU, the NPU, the GPU, the SPU, the ZPU, the HPU, the RPU... 06:05:15 Name htem 06:05:40 rdococ: What do those all stand for? 06:05:53 Read & Write Processing Unit, the Arithmetic Processing Unit, Logic Processing Unit, Nonsense Processing Unit, um 06:06:30 Or let's get rid of the control unit and make a declarative esoprocessor? 06:06:39 Nice 06:07:11 Haskell Assembly 06:07:21 rdococ: Haskssmbly 06:07:27 Haskembly 06:07:32 rdococ: There we go 06:07:33 or Prosembly 06:07:37 for Prolog 06:08:14 I'm leaning towards Prosembly 06:08:26 rdococ: How does it process in a machine-doable way without a list of sequential instructions w/ jumps? 06:08:46 I'm thinking about that. 06:09:40 Well, first it evaluates the output. To do that, it needs to check the rules to see if they apply. If they do apply, apply them. 06:10:10 Or, in Prosembly: 06:10:19 um... 06:10:56 rdococ: Oh! A language based on looping through a list of possible conditional transformations and applying them until a termination case is reached! 06:11:09 Hmm, that could work. 06:11:39 Isn't that basically Prolog? 06:12:22 Well, either way, its assembly could go like this- 06:12:51 mov father, (parent, male) or something? 06:13:19 That's pseudo assembly for copying the meaning of being a parent, and being male, to being a father. 06:13:44 rdococ: Uhuh. And how the hell does that work on a machine level? With binary registers and shit? 06:13:58 rdococ: Be sure that your ideas make sense xD 06:14:05 mov [001], [002]? 06:14:10 I...honestly dunno. 06:14:19 What if father, parent and male are memory addresses? 06:14:38 What if we need to make father point to both parent and male? 06:15:52 father (0000) -> parent (0001), male (0010)... then in pseudo assembly, mov father 0011? 06:16:01 I'm using... flags. 06:16:08 well, flag like things. 06:18:12 rdococ: http://xkcd.com/1291/ 06:19:40 But my mov [0000] 0011 makes sense, right? 06:28:11 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 06:33:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:29:20 -!- tromp has joined. 07:33:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:10:48 rdococ: mov or or? 08:26:34 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:33:03 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:36:45 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 08:46:02 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:11:18 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:06:21 huh, so on a whim, I decided to look up virustotal's results for the eicar test file 10:06:33 two scanners failed to detect it, and one false-positive detected it as something else (!) 10:07:13 that is some level of failure 10:09:38 lol 10:09:39 Fail 10:30:43 -!- tromp has joined. 10:35:10 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:44:00 -!- boily has joined. 11:30:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:46:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:04:53 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CHECKERED CHICKEN). 12:24:49 -!- Reece` has joined. 12:25:29 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit). 12:29:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:37:29 rdococ: are you still trying to make your own wannabe-prolog? 12:37:53 . o O ( Yes. ) 12:40:35 ais523: is it at least possible to decode strings that are made of arbitrary combinations of ^ ~^ :^ !^ ? Because that would already be slightly more than a bit of information per source byte. 12:41:50 ooh, good catch, I think it is 12:41:56 probably a^ too 12:42:00 wait no 12:42:05 I'm tired 12:42:06 ais523: yes, it might be extendible 12:42:10 a~^ would work though 12:42:21 I'm just trying to set a baseline first 12:42:23 *^ perhaps 12:42:30 ouch 12:42:38 seems possible but also seems like a pain 12:42:58 probably you could do : ^ ~^ :^ !^ *^ 12:43:10 err, not :^ in addition to : and ^ obviously 12:43:28 Maybe I should try and write a decoder. (Then you'll also need to write a channel encoder, possibly an arithmetic compression one, in underload, but that shouldn't be VERY hard.) 12:43:28 no 12:43:36 ais523: :^ = : ~^ 12:43:44 oh yes 12:44:01 I shouldn't work on this when tired 12:44:02 ais523: well, I was thinking of !!^ as an addition 12:44:25 you could probably make it work with any specific finite number of ! actually 12:44:33 But first I should try to decode JUST the four clusters ^ ~^ :^ !^ 12:44:36 at first stage 12:44:41 and any specific finite number of : 12:44:53 (and any specific finite number of ! followed by any specific finie number of :, perhaps?) 12:45:15 ais523: well sure, but just any finite number of ! tends to a finite limit of information, so it's not worth to go very far. 12:45:39 ending things with ^ seems like a good idea because that's sort of the point where you hand control back to the decoder 12:45:41 Well, obviously, since you certainly can't go above four bits per source bytes in information density. 12:45:50 But still 12:45:55 I dunno, I should try a basic one first 12:46:02 to learn how underload works 12:46:26 Is there a good underload interpreter that's fast, and one that helps debugging? 12:46:43 JS interpreter on the esoteric files archive is good for debugging but slow 12:46:44 I mean ones that are known to be correct on all inputs. 12:47:07 well nobody implements the escape syntax 12:47:24 I can also try to write an interpreter myself of course, because why not. 12:47:46 you could have the top of the stack be something like ((:*:*)P)((::**)P)((:*)P)(()P) 12:48:04 oerjan: um, what's P ? 12:48:06 where P is a program that checks what numbers are on the stack in the known positions 12:48:22 and decodes what the part of your code before ^ did from that 12:48:37 oh wait 12:48:46 that doesn't work as written 12:49:03 because P cannot find the numbers without executing the P's inside 12:49:04 no no, don't tell me, I'll try to figure out myself, that way I'll learn more of how underload works. 12:49:09 OKAY 12:49:27 But of course feel free to implement something like this yourself if you want. 12:49:31 i was just trying to think of a general scheme that could work with many ...^ codes 12:51:20 hm that kind of scheme only really handles : ! and ~ 12:51:40 oh which is what you were trying, essentially 12:51:48 the interesting thing would be to find a code that involves some parenthisized sequences too, like ()~^ I'm not sure if that's possible (at least in a meaningful way where you could't just write : instead of () 12:52:53 it could even be sequences that have something in the parenthesis, possibly even a sequence of parenthisized stuff without any ^ outside 12:53:13 Well, obviously, since you certainly can't go above four bits per source bytes in information density. <-- three 12:53:14 but that's not likely to be more efficient than the simple het thing 12:53:36 oerjan: I don't remember how many valid characters there are exactly 12:54:00 S can probably be ignored because a program can't distinguish it form ! 12:54:22 b_jonas: right, and then there are 8 remaining 12:54:25 so apart from that there's ~ : ! * ( ) a ^ that's eigh characters indeed 12:54:35 yup, then definitely below 3 bits per source char 12:55:36 obviously the true limit _will_ hit the halting problem at some point, when you start trying to include as arbitrary nested programs as you can 12:56:38 (intuitively, that is. not a proof.) 12:58:19 Does HackEgo evaluate underload? <-- it does. 12:58:31 `! ul (test)S 12:58:45 `! underload (:aSS):aSS 12:59:04 eventually. 12:59:09 oerjan: yeah, but I need something with lower latency than HackEgo 12:59:10 ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/ul: not found 12:59:10 ​(:aSS):aSS 12:59:25 !underload (:aSS):aSS 12:59:25 ​(:aSS):aSS 12:59:30 oerjan: I was about to do that :-D 12:59:37 :) 13:00:04 but fungot is probably most convenient for irc lines 13:00:04 oerjan: well it depends on which implementation you are using?"? 13:00:17 huh, relevant comment 13:00:28 i guess EgoBot is better if you want to do something heavy... 13:00:49 since iirc it uses ais523's C implementation 13:01:08 that impl isn't hyperoptimized, IIRC 13:01:22 you'd imagine it beating befunge, still 13:01:48 oh, it is a pretty optimized one 13:04:19 @tell boily this chännel seems to be temporally misaligned... <-- helloily 13:04:19 Consider it noted. 13:07:50 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:08:35 `? learn 13:08:49 ​`learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] [s][punctuation] [...] 13:08:54 ah good 13:09:10 it looked in the logs like i'd put space between [s] and [punctuation] 13:11:53 `wisdom 13:11:57 disflagrate/disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized. 13:12:51 `? defenestration 13:12:52 Defenestration is the traditional Czech system for voting out government officials. 13:12:57 `quote 13:12:57 916) boily: the man eating chicken is just a normal man, it's quite common to eat chicken in some parts of the world 13:13:38 `wisdom 13:13:40 u/u monad? 13:13:46 `wisdom 13:13:49 wat/Angkor Wat is a famous temple complex in Cambodia. It is the largest religious monument in the world. 13:17:24 -!- me2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:25:37 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 13:36:36 (and a humorous review of the inconsistent type conversion practices of ancient cambodia) 13:37:52 is the "u" one funnny? 13:37:57 `culprits wisdom/u 13:38:22 oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia 13:38:39 seems to have historical value of sorts.. 13:44:12 -!- me2 has joined. 13:45:16 hmm, sourts is an acidic version of sorts. 13:45:33 `? brain 13:45:42 Brains are just receptacles for bricks. 13:45:56 `? pinky 13:45:57 pinky? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:46:57 `` cd wisdom; echo *blaster* 13:46:58 ​*blaster* 13:47:22 `wisdom *rain* 13:47:27 brainf**k/There is no such thing as brainf**k. You may be thinking of brainfuck. 14:11:28 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:11:30 -!- rdococ_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:23:06 ais523: In Magic: the Gathering there are eleven basic lands but I would call the five of them the "conventional basic lands". 14:23:43 apparently there's some debate about whether Wastes is actually useful in Momir Basic 14:23:46 it theoretically could be 14:25:11 Does Momir Basic allow all basic lands or only conventional basic lands? 14:25:32 -!- rdococ has joined. 14:25:35 What's your starting life total and effective starting hand size in Momir Basic? 14:25:52 yay 14:25:54 It's an online-only format so I haven't paid much attention to it. 14:27:33 Actually it is possible to play with cards too; you would have to make up your own list of valid cards otherwise you might have too many 14:29:11 Wait wait, does the Momir avatar card have exactly the same English name as the real black-bordered card of Momir Vig from the Ravnica block? 14:29:20 How can they have the same names? 14:30:43 are all avatar cards like that? 14:30:45 this is crazy 14:34:57 I assumed they had different suffixes, just like how different cards representing the same in-story famous characters have different suffixes 14:35:15 The avatar has the word "Avatar" at the end, apparently 14:35:35 So the name is not the same 14:36:21 (It has a different printed name from canonical name it seems) 14:37:41 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 14:39:18 zzo38: whoa... there are very few cards with a different printed name from canonical name. There's the Ærathi Berserker in legends, Atinlay Igpay from unhinged, the BFG from unhinged, and... I don't know if there's more 14:40:02 -!- iconmaster has joined. 14:44:15 noncanon 14:44:26 so all the cards have a picture of a cannon on them? 14:44:37 rdococ: no, but Goblin Cannon has one 14:44:42 lol 14:44:57 I like that card for a nostaligic reason. 14:45:12 a cannon made out of goblins? 14:45:42 rdococ: no, only the cannonball is 14:45:50 it's a cannon that fires a goblin 14:46:28 Although maybe it's Goblin Artillery that fires goblins 14:46:47 Or Goblin Grenade 14:50:14 -!- leh4 has joined. 14:51:27 -!- leh4 has quit (Client Quit). 14:53:58 Love this sentence. "The Heise Method is an intuitive method for solving the whole cube, but is very difficult to understand." 14:55:04 int-e: yes, “intuitive” is used in a technical sense by cubers, although I think it's a manager style of word that tries to sound good but actually means something bad 14:58:48 I like the sentence because it hilights that fact. 15:02:24 hmm. "F (R U R' U') F' f (R U R' U') f'" ... F is awkward enough, but how do they even dream of doing f quickly... 15:06:08 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 15:06:27 -!- ais523 has quit. 15:12:20 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:15:28 yay 15:20:26 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:22:48 The printed text on the Alpha "Birds of Paradise" card does not match what Gatherer says the printed text is. 15:30:45 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:37:12 zzo38: does it match on the Beta version? 15:37:26 -!- p34k has joined. 15:46:01 Yes 16:05:23 -!- tromp has joined. 16:32:00 The YZIP picture library format supports pictures with up to sixteen colours (one of which may be transparent), and stores each pixel as the current colour index XOR the one above, and then run-length-encodes the result, and then the result of that is huffed. What is the way to optimize the order of colours in the palette (and if less than sixteen, which ones to duplicate, if any)? 16:40:52 [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46735&oldid=46625 * 95.103.41.106 * (+476) Added Kotlin implementation 16:48:25 Is there any better way than just trying all combinations? 17:04:17 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:14:37 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:22:16 flight cancelled, flight delayed, by the time we get on the plane, we could have driven 17:22:39 I have been told that this document is difficult to understand by some people: https://www.npmjs.com/package/genasync How would you suggest to make improved document? 17:23:23 replace it with a harry potter fanfic. everyone understands harry potter 17:24:46 is it a php package? 17:25:02 Hello, quintopia, have you seen the changes to the Daoyu specification? Is it better now? 17:26:06 No, it is a JavaScript package 17:27:41 oh 17:27:55 it is probably fine 17:29:06 Kaynato: can you annotate some example progs to explain how they work? that would be a lot clearer than trying to interrupt what paths do 17:30:17 Alright, I'll do that ASAP 17:35:17 -!- tromp has joined. 17:47:06 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:57:34 -!- jix has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:57:40 -!- jix has joined. 18:02:04 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:11:41 -!- jix has joined. 18:19:16 -!- atrapado has joined. 18:19:18 Can git use checksums other than sha-1 these days? Obviously you can't just convert all existing objects, but maybe there's a sane migration path? 18:22:33 -!- evalj has joined. 18:32:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:34:32 [wiki] [[Daoyu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46736&oldid=46712 * Kaynato * (+10985) 18:34:42 Alright, that's done 18:42:11 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:01:01 Is that better, quintopia? 19:02:57 [wiki] [[Daoyu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46737&oldid=46736 * Kaynato * (+12) minor formatting 19:05:14 May be of interest: http://phys.org/news/2016-03-language-cells.html 19:10:10 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 19:14:37 [wiki] [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46738&oldid=46349 * 79.213.190.167 * (-3) /* External resources */ linkfix 19:23:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:28:21 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:20:16 argh! why's my comupter slow? 20:28:56 -!- tromp has joined. 20:33:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:34:53 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:38:27 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:44:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 20:52:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:06:45 Do you have any ideas about the optimization of YZIP picture libraries? 21:10:34 is this part of your X11 redesign or have you moved on? 21:10:59 No it is unrelated 21:15:12 oh this is part of the infocom thread? 21:16:57 It does have to do with Infocom 21:23:31 I really wish you would establish some context for your questions. The first thing I found in this case was a program called "YZIP" by a company called "Yellow Software", apparently for Symbian... 21:24:08 (And no, I don't.) 21:27:05 Z-machine does not require specific formats to be used for picture libraries. I am calling this format "YZIP picture library" because it is documented together with that Z-machine version. (The other format is "XZIP picture library" format, which does not support compression or colours, and as far as I know is not in use.) 21:28:56 (A few XZIP implementations even use YZIP picture libraries. "XZIP" and "YZIP" here are versions of Z-machine code, although they are not related to the picture library formats except by being documented together.) 21:29:42 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:32:14 One idea I did think of is two pass compression, where it first encodes in the simple way and calculates the Huffman tree, and then encodes again by using RLE codes that compensate for the generated Huffman tree and then create a new tree. 21:33:03 zzo38: that might work, I dunno 21:33:48 wait, it's using RLE only, not general copies from back? 21:33:57 (as in, copy from any previous offset) 21:34:11 (at least within some distance limit) 21:34:23 then I'm not sure it helps much 21:44:30 It is not DEFLATE; only RLE and Huffman, although each scanline is XOR by the scanline above 21:46:39 -!- boily has joined. 21:48:10 zzo38: it needn't be deflate specifically, there are also simple compression schemes with copying from back but a simple fixed encoding of the references and literals instead of a variable huffman coding. 21:49:27 Yes I suppose LZ77, although in this case I would want to figure out optimization with this particular scheme and not DEFLATE or LZ77. 21:49:37 zzo38: do you mean that the RLE code itself is going to be a part of tree? 21:49:55 zzo38: right 21:50:06 zzo38: that's at least easier to solve 21:50:48 although you may need something more tricky to find the optimal huffman table 21:51:02 lifthrasiir: Both the pixel values (the ones XOR with the above) and the RLE codes are part of the Huffman tree 21:51:18 yeah, XOR is a primitive delta coding 21:51:34 (or residual coding, whichever you prefer) 21:52:04 zzo38: how many different pixel values (colors) are there? 21:52:12 b_jonas: Up to sixteen. 21:52:30 zzo38: are you allowed to break the image to chunks with different huffman tables? 21:53:21 No, although different pictures can share tables or use different ones 21:53:47 I see 21:54:27 Hmm, are you allowed to change the huffman table in the middle of a JPEG image? I think you're not allowed to change the _quantization table_ which is a big problem. 21:54:49 I don't know how JPEG works, although I could try to look up to see 21:54:49 zzo38: what size are these pictures? 21:56:18 The Z-machine pictures may be of any size, but are generally of low resolution 21:57:59 @tell oerjan hellørjan. 21:57:59 Consider it noted. 22:07:05 <\oren\> `unidecode ͭ ͯ 22:09:24 ​[U+0020 SPACE] [U+036D COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+036F COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER X] 22:09:24 If I'm reading this right, you can change both the Huffman *and* quantization tables in JPEG. 22:09:24 pikhq: in the middle of an image? really? 22:09:24 that would be great 22:09:28 (although it's probably hard to find an encoder that can actually produce such a jpeg) 22:10:01 There's an image I'd really like to encode that way. 22:10:48 (Well, ideally I'd like browsers to just start supporting more modern image formats so that I don't have to stick to jpeg and png and gif, but you get the idea.) 22:16:51 Yeah, it certainly looks as though the spec permits you to insert a new quantization table between DCT blocks. 22:17:06 (from a somewhat quick reading of the relevant section of the JPEG spec) 22:29:00 -!- tromp has joined. 22:33:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:42:31 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 22:50:56 -!- me2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:51:45 -!- me2 has joined. 22:56:33 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 22:58:49 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:05:53 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:17:30 homemade miso soup is good ^^ 23:17:36 @massages-loud 23:17:36 oerjan said 10h 13m 17s ago: this chännel seems to be temporally misaligned... <-- helloily 23:17:36 shachaf said 4h 45m 10s ago: please don't read this message in public twh 23:17:53 shachaf: hellochaf. sorry. 23:25:33 What's the list for Homestuck? 23:29:27 alist? 23:29:33 `lists 23:29:44 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lists: not found 23:30:18 -!- tromp has joined. 23:30:41 -!- Reece` has joined. 23:32:24 `? slist 23:32:38 Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck. 23:34:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:35:31 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:39:19 `slist Homestuck has been updating since 3/28 23:39:22 slist Homestuck has been updating since 3/28: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 23:39:31 I am aware 23:39:46 I wasn't aware until today 23:39:53 who's alot? 23:40:37 `? alot 23:40:39 alot? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:42:32 http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.se/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html 23:43:06 oh, this alot! 23:45:32 Sgeo__, it's not going to update tomorrow, but EOA6 will be Tuesday I think 23:45:33 hmm. sed -i \'s/elliot *$/alot/\' bin/list 23:47:15 hmm, what did happen to elliott? any particular calamity that made him disappear or did he just find something better to do? 23:47:31 codu's logs are letting me down 23:48:49 can you download codu's logs for offline grepping? 23:49:14 it used to support rsync, but these days I have to use wget... 23:49:36 Gregor's letting us down! 2016-04-03: 00:00:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:00:13 olsner, a little of both columns 00:00:54 -!- Lilly_Goodman has joined. 00:03:55 `relcome Lilly_Goodman 00:04:13 ​Lilly_Goodman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 00:04:16 and where's that Spanish version again... 00:04:21 `welcome.es Lilly_Goodman 00:04:26 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome.es: not found 00:04:27 `bienvenido Lilly_Goodman 00:04:34 Lilly_Goodman: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.) 00:07:47 gracias 00:08:09 olsner: I'll stop digging... that "alot" link came after the "alot" entry in bin/list (later to become bin/slist)... reading logs I believe Bike added el liot to that list against his wishes and oerjan defused it (in a private message, 2 days later). 00:08:26 int-e: ok :) 00:09:13 (this kind of archeology is fun but takes too much time...) 00:10:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:12:54 b_jonas: Probably because of the massive botnet I'm subhosting through it 00:13:01 argh! why's my comupter slow? 00:21:35 -!- p34k has quit. 00:26:45 -!- tromp has joined. 00:27:23 hppavellon[1]. b_jonas says "argh"? 00:27:56 boily: Yeah, b_jonas is a pirate. Did you not know? 00:28:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Connection reset by Pierce). 00:28:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:29:37 Dammit, Pierce 00:32:14 b_jonas: b_jellonaaaaaarghs. 00:32:27 hppavilion[1]: somebody you know? 00:32:41 boily: What was my quit message? 00:33:29 hppavilion[1] (~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net) a quitté (Quit: Connection reset by Pierce) 00:33:51 it was too 00:34:19 -!- jaboja has joined. 00:42:50 -!- Lilly_Goodman has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:44:28 -!- Lilly_Goodman has joined. 00:46:51 -!- FireFly has quit (Changing host). 00:46:51 -!- FireFly has joined. 01:08:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:23:55 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:24:37 -!- tromp has joined. 01:25:32 `wisdom 01:26:15 -!- Lilly_Goodman has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:26:25 precision/78.75211317% of the time precision is totally overrated. 01:26:51 `? Elronnd 01:27:02 Elronnd desperately wants this entry to say something. 01:27:12 `?hppavilion 01:27:13 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?hppavilion: not found 01:27:16 `? hppavilion 01:27:18 hppavilion? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:27:24 `? hppavilion[1] 01:27:26 hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe. 01:30:15 `? hppavilion[2] 01:30:21 hppavilion[2]? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:30:23 -!- Lilly_Goodman has joined. 01:30:30 hppavilion[3223] 01:30:47 hppavilion[e] 01:35:25 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:35:29 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:35:30 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:36:02 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:36:06 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:36:06 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:36:39 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:36:40 -!- glogbot has joined. 01:36:43 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:36:43 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:43:21 -!- boily has quit (Quit: EMPATH CHICKEN). 01:53:07 -!- Anarchokawaii has joined. 01:53:22 has anyone ever thought of making a scope oriented language 01:54:47 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:55:33 hello 01:58:26 <\oren\> maybe I should add phoenician 01:58:50 <\oren\> or is it pheonitian? 01:59:42 <\oren\> no i apparently speled it right the first time 01:59:53 <\oren\> it's just a weird looking word 02:00:25 \oren\ 02:00:59 what if someone made a scope oriented language 02:02:09 <\oren\> scope oriented? what would that mean? 02:02:34 like 02:02:45 it's highly specific about scopes and stuff 02:02:54 so much of the syntax 02:03:08 would be oriented about which scope something is in 02:03:50 i just think it kinda is annoying that you are limited to 3 scopes in most programming languages 02:17:35 -!- Deepfriedice has joined. 02:21:32 What would the other scope be? 02:25:16 -!- Lilly_Goodman has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:25:50 not four 02:25:58 and infinite amout of scopes 02:27:37 like if you had some like : if(if(if(if()))). you could make the variable using in the first and third if statements 02:27:50 but not the second and fourth 02:29:53 had some fun :) https://i.gyazo.com/8433cd03d9dcefe42e89123c3d8af385.png 02:30:18 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:33:25 I suppose the syntax highlighter does not work with trigraphs? 02:35:27 -!- Lilly_Goodman has joined. 02:40:04 -!- Lilly_Goodman has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:56:35 hppavilion[1] 02:56:48 rdococ: Busy 02:56:53 Anarchokawaii: why not make scopes the reason the language is TC? 02:56:54 I should probably have IRC closed ATM 02:56:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:57:41 rdococ: If there is a way to do that, then OK 03:09:34 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:28:25 who needs if anyway 03:42:40 BlooP/FlooP is still just as powerful if the IF command is removed 03:43:14 The last obfuscation couldn't run with -O3 enabled! I touched it up and now it's good https://i.gyazo.com/83683468854e449240973064166db01b.png 03:43:19 obfuscation is too fun 03:46:15 -!- Hurqalya has joined. 03:59:43 does anyone know the gif format well enough to write a gif mostly by hand? 04:00:02 http://giflib.sourceforge.net/whatsinagif/bits_and_bytes.html i'm reading these docs and some things are confusing 04:00:51 like, what's the difference between the color resolution and the size of the color table? :\ 04:00:57 in their example it's the same value 04:01:00 I don't know it well enough, although I have once written a program to alter the palette of a GIF picture 04:01:09 neat 04:01:49 i'm just writing a program to generate a gif from a go match 04:02:33 izabera: i suppose one could write an uncompressed gif by hand, but i aint gonna try to get optimal lzw compression with mental math :p 04:02:54 well i'll do uncompressed first 04:03:57 surely it won't take too much space anyway, it uses like only 3 colors and at most ~300 frames 04:05:52 -!- Hurqalya has left. 04:06:28 hmm...i'd use matlab for that 04:06:53 what :D 04:06:57 -!- XorSwap has joined. 04:11:54 if i wanted to generate go gifs from move lists 04:12:06 i'd write a matlab script 04:12:20 because it is easy to output animated gifs 04:13:49 but i want to do it by hand :3 04:13:53 for reasons 04:13:58 like 04:14:09 like learning purposes i guess 04:14:23 by typing bytes into a text editor one by one? 04:14:44 not that hardcore 04:14:57 just generating them will be fine 04:15:43 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:16:30 i already have a way to do it, with a program called sgf2misc 04:16:34 but it's so slow 04:17:00 you know how there are games of "werewolf" in irc channels? 04:17:00 and it outputs separate gif files and you have to create the animation with imagemagick 04:17:16 why hasn't a murder mystery game been ported to irc yet? 04:17:37 You could also to output PNG or Farbfeld, and then combine with ImageMagick (and ffpng if necessary) 04:17:39 https://i.imgur.com/9L90oYk.gif sample output 04:18:02 farbfeld is big endian :| 04:18:06 https://github.com/quintopia/gifslideshow 04:18:48 nice :o 04:19:16 Yes it is big endian, although it can still be use 04:19:22 imwrite is supercool 04:19:51 zzo38: too late i've already wrote like 5 lines of code so i have to finish this now 04:19:58 OK 04:20:50 and i just downloaded a 3mb gif of quintopia's dog and i'm tethering on my mobile 04:20:56 lolol 04:21:13 hope you bought a lot of bandwidth 04:21:26 2gb/mo 04:24:03 ouch 04:28:05 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:28:24 izabera: heres a better example at only 80mb! http://rutteric.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/river_crossing.gif 04:29:24 nothx 04:29:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:30:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:30:17 dolphin crashes trying to load and display it 04:32:05 izabera: heres a small one showing all the frames of the gif blended together: http://rutteric.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/action_river_crossing.png 04:33:36 nice 04:44:37 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:38:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:38:49 rdococ: You would like the substance "Vertiasium" 05:38:55 (Atomic number i) 05:39:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:42:25 hmph 05:42:33 @messages- 05:42:33 boily said 7h 44m 34s ago: hellørjan. 05:43:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 05:45:28 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*canaima@*.dyn.movilnet.com.ve. 05:45:51 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b Lilly_Goodman!*canaima@*. 05:45:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:46:31 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 05:53:22 -!- tromp has joined. 05:57:28 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:08:32 Hum. There's actually an SSH client for DOS. 06:08:39 This oddly doesn't surprise me. 06:14:43 Kaynato> May be of interest: http://phys.org/news/2016-03-language-cells.html <-- definitely suspicious about the date, here 06:33:10 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:41:55 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 06:45:33 -!- jaboja has joined. 06:50:15 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:54:54 -!- tromp has joined. 06:59:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:08:55 -!- Anarchokawaii has left. 07:09:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:11:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 07:41:33 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:43:22 [wiki] [[Daoyu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46739&oldid=46737 * Oerjan * (+2) Tone marks, just because 08:16:44 * oerjan thinks his brain won't understand Daoyu on the first few iterations. 08:26:20 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:04:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Too much noise). 09:08:21 -!- atehwa has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:14:24 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:22:00 If a language is 1-dimensional textually but 2-dimensional conceptually 09:22:22 Should it be categorized as "Two-dimensional languages"? 09:23:39 Taneb: see how I categorised Formula :-D 09:24:33 The language I'm thinking about is COMPLEX, which I need to finish the article for but is described on my esolangs page 09:24:37 more seriously, Paintfuck fits your description and doesn't seem to be categorized as multi-dimensional 09:25:06 I'd call COMPLEX two-dimensional 09:25:13 Instructions are conceptually laid out on a grid but written sequentially with line numbers describing their location a la BASIC 09:26:28 I feel like COMPLEX is the language of mine I'd have the easiest time writing a compiler for 09:28:10 I might give it ago after my exam on the 15th 09:28:25 well, the physical order of the source doesn't matter, right? 09:28:37 just like you can line-permute a BASIC program and it doesn't change the meaning 09:29:11 Not at all 09:29:22 I ran the example program through shuf 09:29:48 Is this a "syntax is the least important part of a language" situation? 09:31:01 I think so, unless you're trying very hard to make it relevant 09:31:10 (which in this case you might be; I'm not sure) 09:31:45 The syntax was where I started with the language 09:31:59 I wanted BASIC but with complex line numbers, and a way to make them useful 09:32:31 And then I added features until I thought it had enough features 09:32:41 And then I removed GOTO because I realised it wasn't necessary 09:33:25 That's basically how the language happened 09:34:50 I mostly did it to see how easy it was to use Alex and Happy for lexing and parsing in Haskell 09:35:31 (the answer is "easier than I expected, and for this an awful lot easier than parsec" 09:39:23 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Boot toot reboot). 09:43:07 -!- FreeFull has joined. 10:11:37 ugh, I'm trying this old "mirc" client again because I want to make an IRC bot and I'm too lazy to use anything that's actually remotely useful 10:17:33 ais, I'm not actually using it right now 10:18:05 -!- jaboja has joined. 10:25:04 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:34:54 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:00:14 -!- Deepfriedice has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:22:55 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:28:30 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:11:45 -!- jaboja has joined. 12:19:33 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:20:46 -!- Reece` has joined. 12:20:51 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:21:28 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit). 12:31:50 -!- tromp has joined. 12:36:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:48:48 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:56:08 -!- zadock has joined. 12:57:53 -!- boily has joined. 13:08:20 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! 13:08:24 I'm out of coffee! 13:28:10 must be a glitch in the matrix -- watch out for agents! 13:33:48 -!- p34k has joined. 13:38:09 <\oren\> boily: quick , to the national coffee repository in Alert! 13:41:33 Alert is far, and cold, and I need to take a shower, and... 13:42:10 I'll simply go to that new hipster café on the corner. 13:43:02 all because my favourite place to get freshly ground beans is closed on Sundays. 13:48:21 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:08:52 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:11:32 <\oren\> I prefer Italian coffeeshops 14:12:05 <\oren\> mostly for familiarity 14:13:15 <\oren\> I wonder where the Georgian alphabet came from? 14:16:18 -!- tromp has joined. 14:17:07 \oren\: someone saw the rich history of the {Phoenician, Greek, Coptic, Latin, Blackletter, Old Church Slavonic, Russian, Serbian} family of alphabets, with all the crazy variants of cursive writing that gave rise to different sets of lowercase letters, and decided to one-up it, 14:17:14 just to show that he's the best conscripter ever. 14:18:03 \oren\: and they hid a lot of evidence to fool archeologists that it has a two thousand year old history, plus mind controlled ten thousand people to start teaching it. 14:18:46 \oren\: She probably also saw the Armenian alphabet, and correctly figured out that that's the *wrong* way to create an alphabet not derived from phoenician. 14:20:12 ? 14:20:25 անհեթեթություն: 14:21:25 That does not render for me 14:21:47 <\oren\> it's Armenian letters 14:22:27 I went to look at the alphabet on Wikipedia 14:22:29 <\oren\> I recently noticed that my font is missing some Georgian letters 14:22:45 It looks... influenced by Cyrillic/Greek/Latin 14:23:39 <\oren\> yah, armenian looks like alternate-universe latin or something, while georgian looks like nothing I can describe 14:24:12 Taneb: the typography of Georgian is influenced a lot by Greek, Latin, Cyrillic, whereas Hebrew and Arabic and Braille and the American Sign Language fingerspelling have completely different typographical conventions from Latin. 14:25:00 \oren\, Georgian and Burmese I get mixed up 14:25:11 Taneb: However, the letter shapes of Georgian aren't derived from Phoenician, Greek, Latin etc, whereas the letter shapes (and alphabetic order where approperiate) of Hebrew, Arabic, and some of european Braille and ASL fingerspelling _are_ derived from it. 14:25:29 The typography and the letters are two different dimensions. 14:26:04 <\oren\> Taneb: ooh, interesting 14:26:31 I'd be extremely surprised if they share a common influence, though 14:28:10 -!- Reece` has joined. 14:28:17 <\oren\> ⤴⤵⤶⤷ <- unicode doesn't appear to have the reverses of any of these arrows 14:28:27 And just like how Latin and Cyrillic had tons of different historical variants that look unlike each other at first, Georgian does too. 14:28:53 I do find it interesting that Hangul (Korean alphabet) was designed specifically and intentionally to be easy to learn 14:29:21 \oren\: it would be fun if LTR/RTL switched the directions of arrows 14:30:16 `? duck typing 14:30:41 Duck typing means typing on a terminal blinding without an echo. 14:31:58 duck typing is a survival competition involving typewriters on a shooting range 14:31:59 wait, that has a typo 14:32:13 `slashlearn duck typing/Duck typing means typing on a terminal blindly without an echo. 14:32:20 Relearned «duck typing» 14:32:21 `? duck typing 14:32:24 Duck typing means typing on a terminal blindly without an echo. 14:32:43 -!- boily has quit (Quit: NUMISMATIC CHICKEN). 14:33:46 Duck typing is the art of telling apart members of the anatidae family. 14:36:42 <\oren\> I can't even teel the difference between geese and swans 14:36:47 <\oren\> *tell 14:37:32 \oren\, you should go to the other York University 14:37:40 We've got thousands of the blighters 14:38:18 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:38:20 <\oren\> the best I can do in identifying them is "look it's a big duck" 14:38:51 (you are at York University, Toronto, right? Or am I getting you mixed up?) 14:39:09 <\oren\> you're getting me mixed up with my dad 14:39:17 Oh, fair 14:39:19 <\oren\> he works there 14:39:23 I knew there was a connection 14:39:31 <\oren\> I work at Soundhound 14:39:33 I'd like to visit, mostly to annoy my friends at uni 14:39:46 I'm a student at University of York, York 14:40:30 <\oren\> my dad has gone to University of York, deliberately to cause confusion 14:40:49 :D 14:41:02 There's one person in the computer science department here who is apparently a professor at both 14:42:01 https://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~paige/ 14:43:57 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:48:30 both of what? 14:48:57 both yorks 14:49:01 oh, both universities 14:49:07 `? york 14:49:10 York used to be known as Amsterdam. 14:49:16 `? yolk 14:49:17 yolk? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:49:28 I assumed he meant a professor of both computer science and some other science. 14:49:39 Like mathematics or birdology. 14:50:27 surely you mean numerology 14:50:49 No, birdology. The science of duck typing. 14:52:01 b_jonas, both universities, I should have been clearer, sorry 14:53:09 the "at" should've been enough of a hint 14:55:04 int-e, not necessarily, one can be an attorney at law 14:55:05 -!- atrapado has joined. 14:55:19 int-e: yeah, maybe 14:55:28 I wouldn't be surprised if there was an English dialect wherein one could be a professor at computer science 14:56:19 maybe I didn't read careful enough to pick that up, or maybe I just don't read English well enough to pick that up 14:56:39 "Usually, if born in a multiple-of-12 year, like 1980, you’re a Monkey." 14:57:24 This interpretation game can be much funnier when you read an unclear sentence in an old book where you can't ask the writer, and try to figure out what he meant by grammatical nuances 14:57:58 I played it at http://french.stackexchange.com/q/12410/6114 14:59:02 int-e, Chinese zodiac? 14:59:10 I'm year-of-the-dog, I think 15:00:06 wtf, https://missashleyfirstgrade.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/prepositions.png 15:02:46 And yes, Chinese zodiac. I was curious what the animal of the year is. 15:03:13 int-e: hehehe 15:03:25 int-e: that reminds me to bonsaikitten 15:03:27 `? bonsaikitten 15:03:28 bonsaikitten? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:04:23 * int-e is failing to parse "bonsaikitten" as a verb 15:04:46 `learn Bonsaikitten is the cat typing behind the glass of the CRT when you run the cat command. 15:04:51 Learned 'bonsaikitten': Bonsaikitten is the cat typing behind the glass of the CRT when you run the cat command. 15:06:30 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 15:10:29 so apparently there's a german punk rock band called "Bonsai Kitten" ... inspired by the hoax, of course. 15:52:12 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:54:34 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:03:10 `? ceiling cat 16:03:11 ceiling cat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:03:13 `? basement cat 16:03:13 basement cat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:18:45 <\oren\> prepositioning is the art of placing troops in strategically advantageous places efore the outbreak of conflict. Joseph Stalin was total fail at this. 16:23:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:29:40 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 16:29:59 -!- idris-bot has joined. 16:55:14 -!- tromp has joined. 16:59:22 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:06:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:07:56 -!- ^v has joined. 17:08:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:10:05 -!- boily has joined. 17:10:07 @tell int-e olsner: I'll stop digging... [...] <-- pretty much as i remember it, anyway. 17:10:07 Consider it noted. 17:10:20 bood evenily 17:10:39 hellœrjan. 17:30:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:34:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:38:40 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:43:05 [wiki] [[Merthese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46740&oldid=40960 * 50.160.119.44 * (+70) Add Tari's LLVM-backed compiler 17:45:22 * oerjan saw this in norwegian and managed to google the english version http://www.gocomics.com/wumo/2016/03/28 17:47:42 (oh and it's political hth) 17:54:51 a race of Trump hairdos? what next will come out of Norway... 17:55:11 boily: denmark, actually 17:55:34 <\oren\> I work at Soundhound <-- you should design a digital duck whistle for Taneb twh 17:56:16 actually, soundhound should be something that can track ducks by sound. 18:00:05 SoundHound's Android app has annoying notifications. 18:00:48 I'm year-of-the-dog, I think <-- hey me too! that means you're 24 years younger than me hth 18:03:15 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:03:23 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:10:37 -!- Kaynato has joined. 18:11:38 <\oren\> `unidecode ⛨ 18:11:52 ​[U+26E8 BLACK CROSS ON SHIELD] 18:12:32 <\oren\> hmm is that a unicode symbol for crusades? 18:12:51 you'd think that should be red cross 18:13:09 or did that depend 18:14:28 hm knights templar seem to be red, while knights hospitaller are white on black 18:15:24 -!- bb010g has joined. 18:17:33 -!- lleu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:19:58 \oren\: oh, the teutonic order is black on white. not quite the same style though. 18:24:01 24? aren't there only twelve Chinese zodiac signs? 18:24:48 boily: yes, but i don't think Taneb is 12 years younger than me. 18:25:13 or 36, for that matter. 18:26:32 one never knows! Tanebiology is a weird domain. 18:26:51 also, any other dragons in this chännel? 18:26:59 twist: Taneb is 24 years older than oerjan and has been fooling us all about his age. 18:27:23 very plausible. 18:27:52 `? thausible 18:27:53 thausible? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:27:59 huh? 18:28:06 `` ls wisdom/th* 18:28:09 wisdom/thanks ants \ wisdom/thausiblee \ wisdom/the \ wisdom/thé \ wisdom/the meaning of life \ wisdom/the neverending work \ wisdom/theory \ wisdom/the question \ wisdom/the reals \ wisdom/the them \ wisdom/the torus \ wisdom/the u \ wisdom/the universe \ wisdom/the us \ wisdom/things boily likes \ wisdom/thirt \ wisdom/this \ wisdom/this sentenc 18:28:16 `? thausiblee 18:28:18 A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action. 18:28:30 `? thé 18:28:31 Thé is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in the Commonwealth. 18:29:18 `learn Caffè is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in Italy. 18:29:25 Learned 'caffè': Caffè is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in Italy. 18:30:40 <\oren\> I have no idea if there is a difference between é and è or what that difference might be 18:30:59 è is much more grave. 18:31:02 <\oren\> To me they're all "e with a thingy on top" 18:31:50 <\oren\> I can tell the difference between e with a thingy and e with two thingies on top though 18:32:19 \oren\: but they're completely different things! the grave accent is what Italian uses to mark the stressed syllable, the acute accent is what Russian uses to mark the stressed syllable. Isn't that obvious? 18:32:34 I'm trying to work out what circumstances in which the name "thausiblee" would be useful 18:32:45 "thausible" is mostly used for hypothetical actions, right? 18:33:04 it means that ignoring practical implications, there isn't an obvious reason why the action couldn't be taken 18:33:15 so is "thausiblee" for hypothetical situations too? 18:33:30 what 18:33:44 is this about thaums 18:33:51 <\oren\> speaking of accents why does ÿ exist? 18:34:18 <\oren\> does german umlaut y into like a u or something 18:34:43 "replacing someone's brain with a brick is difficult, but if you're talking about placing a brick in their stomach, person X would make a good thausiblee" 18:35:01 \oren\: oh heck 18:35:11 \oren\: I think the y with umlaut is messed up in my font 18:35:50 whÿ? 18:35:53 \oren\: and it exists but it's VERY RARE. like, it occurs in French place names and other proper nouns that they didn't want to spell normally, just for the kicks. there's no point to actually have that letter, compared to y 18:36:06 [wiki] [[NetBytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46741&oldid=46728 * Iconmaster * (+200) Added the connection stack. I think it's necessary for any interesting computational class. 18:36:10 I'll fix my font quick 18:37:07 could it be used as a diaresis? 18:37:15 when vowel-y immediately precedes another vowel? 18:37:21 * ais523 tries to think of a word where that happens 18:37:46 hmm, ỳ and ý and ŷ are messed up too 18:38:19 ais523: what diphtongue would that prevent? 18:38:27 um 18:38:39 \oren\: ÿ exists in French for extremely uncommon village names hth 18:38:40 I'm not sure if there are any dipthongs that start with y 18:39:01 <\oren\> L'Haÿ-les-Roses 18:39:21 -!- iconmaster has joined. 18:39:32 hmm, how is "ayy" (as in "ayy lmao") pronounced? 18:39:34 é represents a é sound, where è is è hth 18:39:36 in particular, is it a tripthong? 18:39:50 <\oren\> le ha EE les rose? 18:39:52 /æj:/? 18:39:54 I pronounce it like 'aye'. 18:40:04 ais523: I think it would be the same as ay 18:40:27 ais523: that is, probably something like /ɛi/ or /ei/ 18:40:37 b_jonas: in which case, a ÿ would be theoretically useful in the sequence aÿy 18:40:45 \oren\: /lai.lɛ.ʁoz/ 18:40:46 ais523: why? 18:41:01 because it'd be pronounced as ay-y, not ayy 18:41:03 Of course, I also pronounce "lmao" like "luh-mouh", so don't trust me here. 18:41:06 ais523: would it make multiple /i/ sounds one after the other? I don't think that's actually a pronunciation distinction they pronounce 18:41:13 /lmao/ 18:41:18 wait, let me look up, there are conjugated verbs with "ii" in the written form 18:41:19 <\oren\> el-Mao 18:41:31 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mychal * New user account 18:41:39 b_jonas: in French? yes, there are. 18:41:43 also, there was a relevant entry on David Madore's blog with a word that he thinks should be spelled with ö 18:42:03 (which is not a letter than normally exists in French) 18:42:32 b_jonas: ay-y where the second y is a consonant, as opposed to ayy which is one vowel 18:43:43 like, say you pay someone in yams 18:43:45 ais523: /i/ is either a vowel, or a semi-vowel spelled /j/, which is just /i/ but shorter. I don't think /ij/ would be distinguished from /i/ thus. 18:43:45 [wiki] [[FISHQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46742&oldid=46267 * Mychal * (+1843) Added Kotlin implementation 18:43:59 those would be paÿyams, whereas "payyams" might be pronounced "paiams" 18:44:09 <\oren\> I thought ayy was pronounced like the letter A as /ej/ 18:44:44 ais523: hmm, you might be right 18:45:10 ais523: https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Annexe:Conjugaison_en_fran%C3%A7ais/rire says riiez is pronounced /ʁij.je/ 18:45:15 (seriously) 18:46:01 well, I never really understood how the french semi-vowels are supposed to work 18:46:19 <\oren\> maybe the /i/ is a bit more toaward /ɪ/ and glides up toward /i/? 18:46:38 <\oren\> and they write that as /ij/ 18:46:52 I pretend they're just variants of vowels that the linguists invented to claim that the two meanings of "suis" are distinguished in pronunciations 18:47:12 is this about thaums <-- no, we're just splitting hairs. at least in the realities that survived, hth. 18:49:23 * ais523 tries to think of a word where that happens <-- cyanide hth 18:49:45 oerjan: doesn't really work because "ya" doesn't have a pronounciation as a single vowel 18:51:57 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Ÿ). 18:52:28 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 18:54:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:54:17 ah, found it! it's http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-08-07.2061.html#d.2012-08-07.2061 and it's even more ridiculous than I remembered 18:55:06 he suggests the spelling “arguë́”, with an e with diæresis and acute accent, as well as “arguöns” with an o with diæresis 18:55:12 -!- tromp has joined. 18:55:46 hilariöus 18:59:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 19:02:22 (he also suggests a new grammatical tense for verbs, and I know way too little about the already existing grammatical tenses in French to be able to make sense of what that even means) 19:15:42 passé composté 19:16:39 for actions that are _quite_ finished. 19:17:17 wait, composter doesn't mean that in french? 19:19:28 hm wiktionary is _very_ confusing on the issue. 19:20:10 ah french wiktionary is better, it does mean that too. 19:22:55 -!- mychal has joined. 19:25:51 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 19:28:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:41:53 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:47:26 -!- mychal has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:51:13 -!- me2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:56:36 -!- tromp has joined. 20:00:24 -!- Kaynato has joined. 20:00:44 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 20:00:50 I have a theory about time travel in (this) universe 20:01:05 hppavilion[1]: is the theory that it's impossible? 20:01:06 I call it the "Continuational Theory of Temporal Anomalies" 20:01:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:01:10 b_jonas: No 20:01:14 aww 20:01:16 b_jonas: But it explains why we can't see it 20:01:43 b_jonas: My theory goes that, when the proper conditions arise, a new sort of particle is created 20:01:51 This particle is called the "Continuation Particle" 20:02:07 The continuation particle drifts through the universe like any other particle 20:02:35 Except, when it interacts in the proper way with another particle (probably getting close enough) 20:02:47 The universe reverts to the moment that the continuation particle was created 20:03:06 And everything continues the same way, EXCEPT that the continuation particle is replaced with the particle it collided with 20:03:18 It fits with the LISPiverse theory quite nicely 20:04:17 b_jonas: Get it? 20:04:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 20:04:31 `? call/cc 20:04:35 call/cc? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:04:37 What. 20:04:43 `? call-with-current-continuation 20:04:46 call-with-current-continuation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:04:56 we all know what call/cc does anyway, or should 20:05:10 ais523: Yes, but that's the perfect opportunity for a call/cc joke 20:05:28 ais523: Sort of like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_evaluation 20:05:43 ais523: How do you like my theory? 20:06:04 hppavilion[1]: this is how time travel works in Feather 20:06:06 `? Feather 20:06:08 Feather? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:06:12 `? feather 20:06:14 feather? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:06:17 oh good 20:12:11 ais523: Isn't `? case-insensitive? 20:12:23 I wasn't sure 20:12:51 ais523: Ah 20:12:54 `? lisp 20:12:55 lisp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:15:07 `le/rn lisp/(eq "lisp" (proglang-with (use-lots ["(" ")"]) (paradigm functional) (notation-type prefix))) 20:15:11 Learned «lisp» 20:15:15 `? lisp 20:15:16 ​(eq "lisp" (proglang-with (use-lots ["(" ")"]) (paradigm functional) (notation-type prefix))) 20:15:23 -!- lleu has joined. 20:15:23 -!- lleu has quit (Changing host). 20:15:23 -!- lleu has joined. 20:15:38 does proglang-with autoquote its arguments? 20:15:38 ais523: Is that joke sufficient? 20:15:54 ais523: Not exactly 20:16:11 ais523: Its arguments yield attributes 20:16:22 ais523: (use-lots, paradigm, and notation-type) 20:16:37 I considered that but decided it was excessively Java 20:16:52 ais523: And proglang-with combines those attributes to yield a programming language 20:16:56 ais523: It's not strictly OO 20:17:04 ais523: It's a cousin of OO 20:17:20 so is Java :-P 20:18:05 But less horrible, as it doesn't use state change 20:18:05 ais523: "attributes" doesn't mean object fields. 20:18:17 -!- me2 has joined. 20:18:22 ais523: (paradigm x) and (notation-type x) are actually semi-sugar for dictionary lookups 20:18:31 yes but you're still writing a function that returns data values that are then used to construct an object 20:18:39 ais523: Fair enough 20:18:40 in other words, you have a factory attribute factory 20:18:59 ais523: Fine, it's OO, but done in a LISPy way 20:19:08 ais523: If you have a better joke, use it. 20:19:19 I'd just have added a few apostrophes 20:19:31 or written it as cons cells 20:19:31 ais523: Fine, I'll do that 20:19:56 `le/rn lisp/(eq "lisp" (proglang-with '(use-lots ["(" ")"]) '(paradigm functional) '(notation-type prefix))) 20:19:59 Relearned «lisp» 20:20:34 `? lisp 20:20:35 ​(eq "lisp" (proglang-with '(use-lots ["(" ")"]) '(paradigm functional) '(notation-type prefix))) 20:20:52 `? python 20:20:53 python? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:21:22 `le/rn python := ProgrammingLanguage(plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE 20:21:23 No output. 20:21:25 Whoops 20:21:43 The := was a mistake, first of all 20:22:35 `le/rn python/python = ProgrammingLanguage(attrs=[plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE'], plattrs['INTERPRETED'], *plparadigms['IMPERATIVE', 'FUNCTIONAL']]) 20:22:41 Dammit 20:22:48 `le/rn python/python = ProgrammingLanguage(attrs=[plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE'], plattrs['INTERPRETED'], *plparadigms['IMPERATIVE', 'FUNCTIONAL']]) 20:22:51 Learned «python» 20:22:53 `? python 20:22:55 python = ProgrammingLanguage(attrs=[plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE'], plattrs['INTERPRETED'], *plparadigms['IMPERATIVE', 'FUNCTIONAL']]) 20:23:04 Not perfect, but it works 20:23:31 And plparadigms[x, y] is nice because it demonstrates the use of the __getitem__ method for custom objects 20:23:48 oerjan, that'd make you... 45? 20:24:37 I hate it when X11 breaks. 20:25:03 `? brainfuck 20:25:05 brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. 20:25:25 -!- shikhin has changed nick to totally_heddwch. 20:25:27 `le/rn_append brainfuck/bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang 20:25:30 Learned 'brainfuck': brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang 20:25:34 -!- totally_heddwch has changed nick to shikhin. 20:26:14 hehe, "mklang" 20:26:46 `` sed -i "s/mklang/mklang_arry" wisdom/brainfuck 20:26:47 sed: -e expression #1, char 20: unterminated `s' command 20:26:57 `` sed -i "s/mklang/mklang_arry/" wisdom/brainfuck 20:27:00 No output. 20:27:13 well, someone did make a trivial brainfuck substitution generator once 20:27:14 (I hope that mklang_arry is *nixy enough) 20:27:25 Actually, no 20:27:38 `` sed -i "s/mklang_arry/mklang --array" wisdom/brainfuck 20:27:39 sed: -e expression #1, char 28: unterminated `s' command 20:27:49 * hppavilion[1] is an idiot 20:27:57 `` sed -i "s/mklang_arry/mklang --array/" wisdom/brainfuck 20:28:01 No output. 20:28:05 `? brainfuck 20:28:06 brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array 20:28:22 Note that the `bf` command is, of course, a brainfuck interpreter 20:28:45 The -c flag obviously interprets its argument directly, and -t makes it return its tape 20:28:56 What? 20:29:04 Why are you doing these things to the wisdom database? 20:29:27 shachaf: I'm making definitions of languages in the languages themselves 20:29:46 Taneb: excellent arithmetic would buy again 20:30:15 Maybe put those somewhere else? They don't really fit in. 20:30:15 shachaf: brainfuck had to be *nix'd though, because it doesn't have support for the libraries that would be necessary for this 20:30:46 shachaf: Well, it started with lisp, because lisp didn't have a wisdom entry 20:30:51 shachaf: But I can do that if you like 20:31:05 `? lisp 20:31:06 ​(eq "lisp" (proglang-with '(use-lots ["(" ")"]) '(paradigm functional) '(notation-type prefix))) 20:31:26 oerjan, sorry for the slow response, I was having an accidental nap then getting a drink of water and otherwise not paying attention to IRC 20:31:52 oerjan, when is your birthday? 20:32:46 . o O ( after christmas ) 20:33:22 i was born on a perfect day hth 20:33:29 oerjan: the 6th and/or 28th? 20:33:35 both of those 20:33:36 hmm, 28th of June? 20:33:40 yes 20:34:14 it could only go downhill from there, really. 20:34:17 I forgot how to list all the channels I havr egistered 20:34:44 wow, shachaf was born on tau day? 20:34:49 no 20:34:50 oerjan 20:34:54 I mean 20:34:55 wait 20:35:03 who's the one who was born on a perfect day? 20:35:03 rdococ: /ns listchans is the closest I can see 20:35:06 I got confused 20:35:14 That may be the best argument pro tau that I've seen so far. 20:35:21 * oerjan swats rdococ -----### 20:35:21 look for channels where you have +F permission 20:35:24 please see the two words preceding "born on a perfect day" hth 20:35:27 int-e: well it doesn't work on me 20:35:50 oerjan: presumably you were born on 496-06-28 20:36:08 so all will be right again on 8128-06-28 20:36:30 dinosoerjan 20:36:34 tsk, what was I thinking... Channel #realworld created Tue Dec 29 05:00:21 2009 20:37:15 oerjan was born on tau day omg 20:37:37 * oerjan swats rdococ again for good measure -----### 20:37:37 * rdococ slaps oerjan with a trout ><> 20:38:09 shachaf: maybe not _that_ perfect. 20:38:40 I'm testing a new bot I just made, using a terrible scripting language - you get three guesses as to what it is 20:39:03 shachaf: Maybe rdococ just has absurdly short scrollback? 20:39:11 shachaf: Perhaps a newsbanner-style IRC client 20:39:17 doesn't matter 20:39:28 rdococ: php, lua, javascript, ruby... oops. 20:39:29 hppavilion[1]: nah, I was typing as I was reading 20:39:35 int-e: no, worse 20:39:39 shachaf: That would mean they couldn't see "I was born on a perfect day" 20:39:42 malbolge 20:39:50 * oerjan optimist 20:39:52 hppavilion[1]: but they responded to that comment 20:40:04 I was just reading while I typed it 20:40:06 shachaf: Yes, but they may have read it and then forgot who sent it 20:40:11 look 20:40:13 it doesn't matter 20:40:30 rdococ: bash? 20:40:31 oerjan, I was born on a prime day 20:40:50 no, I didn't read the part about oerjan until it was too late 20:40:53 well we now have proof rdococ is not a goldfish, since goldfish have reasonably good memory hth 20:40:56 int-e: no, even worse 20:41:09 dc 20:41:15 oerjan: what? I didn't forget anything... 20:41:20 int-e: nope, evener worser 20:41:24 rdococ: that's what you think 20:41:28 (impossible, sadly) 20:41:36 int-e: so mSL is better than dc? 20:41:42 Conclusion: rdococ is actually a goldfish? 20:41:51 (at least as far as I can see, dc cannot parse arbitrary input) 20:41:52 why would I be a goldfish? 20:42:05 int-e: MSL IS BETTER THAN SOMETHING?! 20:42:35 as I was saying, I'm testing my new murder mystery game on ##murder 20:43:15 rdococ: to be fair, dc wasn't designed to be a scripting language 20:43:25 mSL wasn't either by the looks of it 20:43:34 it has the weirdest syntax 20:43:37 it's almost esoteric 20:43:44 heck, it is esoteric 20:45:26 rdococ, use Awk instead 20:46:31 I hope I don't give people the wrong impression by calling my murder mystery game bot murderbot 20:46:40 it just got disconnected 21:09:23 what was the quit message 21:13:26 @ping 21:13:26 pong 21:18:10 > 1 21:18:13 1 21:40:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 21:40:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 21:40:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 21:40:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 21:41:39 ^ping 21:41:39 That Pong alone cannot stop! 21:41:50 that… is not what I was expecting 21:41:54 ^help 21:41:54 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 21:42:00 ^show ping 21:42:00 (That Pong alone cannot stop!)S 21:42:09 well, that's the obvious way to write it in fungot 21:42:09 ais523: i have only seen the movie yet, but the result will come out first :) i am happy that you seem to prefer to use plain 32-bit rgb values 21:42:14 ^show 21:42:15 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf 21:42:34 hmm, 32-bit rgb, what are the other 8 bits? 2⅔ bits for each channel? alpha? gamma? 21:42:37 help, fungot is making sense! 21:42:37 b_jonas: right click and choose a simplistic implementation ( conses or vectors) you'd need 3 primitives. the word " fry" makes me nervous!! 21:43:03 ais523: 8 unused values usually; or 10+12+10 bits for rgb 21:43:05 fungot: would you prefer to be boiled? 21:43:05 int-e: you guys ever considered the concept, whereas partial continuations refers to the same port) or just use pastebin? can i borrow it? 21:43:07 both of those exist 21:43:13 b_jonas: why does the green get more bits? 21:43:33 is it just because it's double 5:6:5? 21:43:35 fungot: no, that thought had not occurred to me 21:43:36 int-e: here's the problem with that is you need to use set-car! and set-cdr! too. i tried ( set!... 21:43:46 ^style 21:43:46 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 21:43:54 right, that's what I thought it was 21:44:00 fungot's irc style normally produces the best results 21:44:00 ais523: the bash scripts in the language 21:44:26 now I'm wondering what esoteric subsets of bash exist 21:44:30 there's ddsh, at least 21:44:40 which the author of CLC-INTERCAL has used as an esolang 21:44:57 ais523: green matters more for the human eyes, that's why it gets more bits. but 8 bits for each of rgb and 8 unused bits is much more common 21:46:10 ... 21:46:32 b_jonas: right, this is something I discovered during the palette tests 21:46:49 ais523: one esoteric subset of bash is bash without execing anything else 21:46:52 dark greens are easier to see than dark reds or blues at a similar brightness 21:46:59 thus darker colours are more usable with green 21:47:05 people implement stuff in that sometimes, even when it doesn't make sense 21:47:08 Ugh 21:47:13 b_jonas: ddsh is basically that, except a) you can exec dd, and b) you can only use the subset that exists in sh 21:47:14 (sometimes it can make sense, when forking and execing is slow) 21:47:28 It's strange, because the irc style's also one of those I trained using my own, very crude fixed-length n-gram model collector, instead of the VariKN toolkit I used for most of the rest. 21:47:31 I'm implementing a BF interpreter and compiler, and I want the standard getch()-style input because it's better than buffering 21:47:32 I swear my internet just stopped for a minute 21:47:52 rdococ: mine too, if you mean irc 21:47:55 On the other hand, it's also much larger than the other styles. 21:48:01 and it's the second time 21:48:02 But I also want it to be able to set the input to a file instead of the stdin 21:48:02 oerjan: no, everything else 21:48:13 fizzie: oh, being bigger helps a lot 21:48:19 And if it's a file, it will work the same but read from the file 21:48:28 oerjan: wait, you mean it did take a whole minute for another person to say something? 21:48:35 But python has the stdin AS a file, so I cannot distinguish them 21:48:45 ^style europarl 21:48:45 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 21:48:46 But I want to, because if they're- oh, I think I know nhow 21:48:52 That one's approximately the same size. 21:48:58 huh...? 21:49:03 And I like it quite a lot, although it's pretty predictable. 21:49:03 internet's broken, but irc is fine? 21:49:19 fungot: What's your take on the migrant crisis? 21:49:20 fizzie: mr president, mrs cerdeira morterero' s report takes the same line, which caused such an uproar and upheaval that there are many, the people who suffer distress or die, and indirectly through greater transparency, even in the european union 21:50:16 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:51:38 rdococ: it was more that a lot came through at once. 21:52:20 oerjan: nah, what happened was that the game I was playing froze - I could still move or jump or stuff, but everyone was walking in place, then eventually, it disconnected 21:52:47 internet's broken, but irc is fine? <-- DNS trouble? 21:53:14 I'll use Window's terrible diagnosis thing 21:53:32 although that _shouldn't_ matter for an ongoing game unless it's badly written? 21:53:44 what do you mean? 21:54:01 DNS should only matter if you need to make new connections 21:54:13 that's interesting... 21:54:25 are you saying that if I disconnect from this irc server, I won't be able to reconnect? 21:54:34 it's possible. 21:54:37 that makes sense about something that happened a few years ago 21:54:52 chrome mentions the dns 21:54:54 "DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN" 21:54:59 it's happened to me before. 21:55:17 the game was multiplayer 21:55:24 if so, try setting your DNS to something wellknown like 8.8.8.8 21:55:33 fizzie: retrain it with even more irc data! and train one from the lolcat bible 21:55:33 my DNS? 21:55:39 *DNS server 21:55:46 how do I do that? 21:55:53 that's one of google's 21:55:56 ik 21:55:58 no, the other sort of DNS 21:56:07 there are two kinds? 21:56:22 rdococ: can you open web pages, or are you still having trouble? 21:57:00 google doesn't work 21:57:15 oh, is this the kind of problem where you have to hope you're not disconnected from irc because you wouldn't be able to disconnect? 21:57:28 reconnect*? if so, yes 21:57:30 rdococ: turn off "Work offline" in the File menu 21:57:37 file menu? 21:57:41 in which program? 21:57:42 of the browser 21:57:45 firefox or similar 21:58:01 it's chrome, it has no file menu 21:58:12 I don't know about chrome 21:58:17 can't help there 21:59:22 indeed 21:59:26 it is that kind of problem 21:59:45 disconnected and tried to reconnect my bot 22:00:02 how do I set my dns 22:00:09 dhould I try IE? 22:00:27 it's not in the browser 22:00:35 but i'm having trouble refinding it 22:00:51 no, I mean, it might have a file menu 22:01:16 You can try opening a site by IP to verify whether it's indeed DNS trouble. Say, navigate to http://178.62.79.47/ in Chrome. 22:01:31 That works. 22:02:14 Then the 8.8.8.8 trick is likely to work, but I can't really comment on how to set it in Windows, I'm sure they've moved the setting around in every version of it. 22:02:22 windows 8 22:02:25 pls search it 22:02:36 i found how to display what the DNS server is, but not how to set it. i'm on W10 22:02:45 Well, I've got a page. 22:02:45 tell me how to display it 22:02:50 "This article will advise how to change your computer's IP address and DNS servers on Windows 8. This article applies to any version of Windows 8." 22:02:55 It has a lot of screenshots. 22:02:57 k 22:03:00 what do they say? 22:03:12 Well, they're mostly blue. There's a nice picture of a daisy as a background. 22:03:27 what should I type? 22:04:11 come on, it shouldn't take that long, and I'm worrying 22:04:12 The screenshots go Control Panel -> "Network and Sharing Center" -> "Change adapter settings" -> right-click on the network -> Properties -> Internet Protocol Version 4 (TCIP/IPv4) -> Properties -> "Use the following DNS server addresses". 22:05:11 ah that seems right 22:05:33 i didn't try to click on the Internet Protocol item 22:06:18 (Interestingly enough, the top hit for me for "windows 8 set dns server" -- the page I was quoting from -- was from the support site from the ISP I'm using. I wonder if that's just targeted ranking, or if they're just that good.) 22:06:22 so it works in Windows 10 too 22:07:07 aha 22:07:30 ABfCI is now officially online! 22:07:31 https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/ABfCI 22:07:35 rdococ 22:07:37 changed it to 8.8.8.8 22:07:54 it works 22:07:55 yay 22:10:31 Can anyone think of a stupider sounding maths word than "clopen"? 22:11:44 not off the top of my head 22:11:48 but I feel like I've encountered some 22:15:22 clopen? 22:15:29 both closed and open 22:16:44 rdococ, it comes up in topology which has technical definitions for closed and open sets 22:16:49 That aren't mutually exclusive 2016-04-04: 00:03:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:07:46 Taneb: I may have asked this before, but what strategies are used when generating brainfuck code? 00:08:42 hppavilion[1], you need to keep in mind your data structure is a tape, and the only loop you have is a fairly simple while loop 00:08:53 Taneb: OK. 00:09:12 Design your data structure carefully and don't be afraid to change it if it isn't working 00:10:03 Taneb: For a compiled-to-brainfuck language, would data markup be useful? 00:10:20 I don't know, that's not something I have any experience with 00:10:20 Basically, a way to tell it to set certain cells to values before initialization? 00:10:27 Taneb: Fair enough 00:13:46 what about a looped tape? 00:14:03 rdococ: Been there, done that 00:14:07 rdococ: You use a deque 00:14:10 > and < are roll 00:14:11 Not in scope: ‘are’ 00:14:11 Perhaps you meant one of these: 00:14:11 ‘arr’ (imported from Control.Arrow), 00:14:18 ' pushes a new 0 00:14:35 rdococ: Seems like it would trivially reduce to BF, but it's actually very different 00:14:38 so you can add and remove stuff in tapes? 00:14:44 rdococ: Yes? 00:14:53 I mean increment or decrement the value 00:14:58 rdococ: Yes 00:15:03 -!- lleu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:15:10 rdococ: + pops a value and pushes its successor, - does the same with predecessor 00:15:14 [ and ] are the same 00:15:14 what if the program was looped? 00:15:14 hppavilion[1]: and ] are the same 00:15:38 , and . are the same (usually, though you may want to make them different) 00:15:39 like what we were discussing about a prolog processor 00:15:48 rdococ: Looped program? Like Fueue? 00:16:55 rdococ: Or like this language I made which's name has slipped my mind? 00:18:23 prolog processor? 00:18:30 speaking of fueue, where's mroman now? 00:18:33 rdococ: Yeah, prolog processor. 00:18:38 boily: Good question 00:18:48 rdococ: You're the one who brought it up 00:19:21 rdococ: Do you want to design a FORTH-like language? 00:20:59 hmm 00:21:12 rdococ: Called FITH 00:21:14 @ask mroman hello? hello? hello? 00:21:14 Consider it noted. 00:21:53 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:21:58 there's one called FIFTH 00:22:04 it's esoteric 00:23:41 rdococ: FITH would not be. Well, not completely. 00:24:07 rdococ: It'd be eso- by virtue of being a FORTH, and would have optional esoteric features, but it would also be quite straightforward 00:24:27 In theory, it'd be suitable for a wide range of applications, from hobbyist OS dev to systems programming to space flight 00:24:33 k 00:24:49 interesting 00:24:59 so it'd be stack based 00:25:24 I recently came across a language called 8th, which is apparently a commercial FORTH with big ambitions 00:25:30 it's unclear whether anyone actually uses it 00:26:03 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:27:28 and it would do stuff like maths and input 00:27:52 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 00:27:56 ais523: is it trying to add some safeguards to detect stuff early (possibly at compile time), like unpaired push/pop on the main stack or wrong types? 00:28:12 b_jonas: I don't know the details 00:28:30 nothing in the tutorial looked different from actual Forth except that it appeared to have a type system, and I suspect one that isn't checked at any point 00:28:35 hmm, that reminds me, 00:28:35 you just have to write the types correctly 00:28:55 I should add that language that tries to pretend it's forth-like to the esowiki because it probably counts as an esolang 00:29:04 I'll add a todo-entry 00:29:52 [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46743&oldid=46727 * B jonas * (+143) 00:32:19 hmmm 00:32:26 2d stack? 00:33:03 -!- p34k has quit. 00:34:10 hmm 00:35:13 add 2 mult 3 2 00:36:22 rdococ: 2D stack? How does that work? 00:36:59 not infinity 1d stacks 00:37:07 diagonals? 00:37:13 you could have horizontal stack 00:37:16 rdococ: But a 2D stack. Explain? 00:37:17 or vertical stack 00:37:28 Oh, I think I see 00:37:29 hmm 00:37:37 You can pop from multiple places 00:37:50 rdococ: But how do you tell it where to pop from? 00:37:57 rdococ: Also, the analogy breaks down a bit in 2D 00:38:06 rdococ: Because it matters what direction the stack grows in 00:38:06 but then you could change a stack's direction and make it a snake 00:38:13 hmm 00:38:22 rdococ: I'd prefer to just use a good old deque 00:38:27 true 00:38:36 what about a branching stack? 00:38:50 `google spaghetti stack 00:38:58 add (mult 3 2) (div 2 3) would branch into two branches 00:39:02 mult branch and div branch 00:39:07 @google spaghetti stack 00:39:08 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent_pointer_tree 00:39:16 but it sounds less esoteric and more useful 00:39:20 rdococ: That's not how FORTH works 00:39:28 ik 00:39:31 rdococ: This is meant to be useful while preserving roots in esotericness 00:39:33 Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=%73%70%61%67%68%65%74%74%69%20%73%74%61%63%6b' \ Alert!: Unable to access 00:39:38 Are there any Magic: the Gathering cards which create new state-based actions? 00:39:42 rdococ: FORTH would be 2 3 +, not + 2 3 00:40:00 And FORTH is better because of that 00:40:19 Because you can do things other than arithmetic, which still works in prefix, but is much more confusing 00:40:40 rdococ: So the instructions I'm already thinking of are: 00:40:42 pls give me an example 00:40:57 rdococ: $ or DROP makes sense in postfix, but not as much in prefix 00:41:04 drop? 00:41:12 rdococ: POP a value and throw it away 00:41:24 example pls 00:41:38 rdococ: 2 3 4 $ + is equal to 2 3 + 00:42:05 Because the 4 gets DROPed 00:42:09 oh 00:42:16 It seems useless, but it doesn't have to be a scalar like 4 00:42:29 It could be an expression with side-effects 00:42:36 int-e: int-ello. I seem to have begun binging QC. welp. 00:42:37 oh, okay 00:42:40 interesting 00:42:43 2 3 "press any key to continue" . , $ + 00:42:54 That will add 2 and 3, but not until you approve of it 00:43:02 wow 00:43:03 cool 00:43:05 that's 00:43:06 wow 00:43:14 rdococ: Want me to make a full list of instructions? 00:43:16 never thought of it that way 00:43:20 rdococ: Just the basic ones 00:43:29 so it drops ,? 00:43:32 what's , do? 00:43:33 rdococ: Yes 00:43:36 rdococ: , is GETCH 00:43:40 GETCH? 00:43:55 rdococ: , gets a single character of input (a single keypress) and PUSHes its ord() onto the stack 00:44:12 rdococ: So , $ is a GETCH that doesn't change the stack 00:44:26 cool 00:44:28 sounds good 00:44:40 rdococ: But $ only drops one value; if it's an instruction that creates two new values (e.g. , ,), you need two $s 00:44:43 so . pops and outputs the string? 00:44:55 that was pushed before it 00:45:15 so is FORTH all like this, or does it have other things? 00:45:39 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:47:29 rdococ: Yes, pretty much all stacks 00:47:29 hmm by the looks of it, it's all in that stack based no--hey, what about brainstack? stack based brainfuck! 00:47:38 rdococ: That's been done. 00:47:41 rdococ: Repeatedly. 00:47:42 wow 00:47:44 yeah 00:47:46 rdococ: Please do not make a new one. 00:47:47 didn't sound so good 00:48:04 I have not made a single bf derivative in my time here 00:48:18 mine are not that esoteric 00:48:41 <\oren\> my brainfuck interpreter uses a stack 00:48:47 wow, really? 00:48:54 \oren\: eh? 00:49:03 what other paradigms are there? 00:49:13 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm 00:51:52 hmm 00:51:53 so 00:51:58 holy syntax highlighting batman! those are some saturated colours! 00:52:05 a stack based language which is a more esoteric version of forth 00:52:16 yeah, ow my eyes 00:52:23 infact, rip them 00:52:24 also, you use tabs. tabs are evil. four spaces! 00:52:31 tabs! 00:52:34 tabs! 00:52:46 SPACES! 00:52:54 tabs are sometimes 4 spaces, sometimes 8! 00:52:58 boily: Tabs are configurable-width 00:53:04 I prefer 4. 8 looks like someone stretched it into spaghetti 00:53:15 four. spaces. 0x20. four of 'em. 00:53:18 and 2 looks like msl aaaaaaaaaaaaaah 00:53:28 00:53:31 boily: You can tell it how wide you want your tabs to be in spaces. So tabs allow better personal preferences 00:53:52 Iwillusetabsfromnowontoannoyboily 00:53:58 yay! 00:54:04 justkidding 00:54:17 and then you're going to tell me that braces go alone on their own lines. 00:54:19 I'mnotthatevil 00:54:22 HERETICS Y'ALL! 00:54:32 braces don't need to exist 00:54:37 lua doesn't have them 00:54:43 and they're filthy 00:54:45 dirty 00:54:47 unholy 00:56:53 Of course, I don't really care whether tabs or spaces are used; just do whatever your dev environment spits out when you hit newline 00:58:15 When I push newline it results in newline! 00:58:25 really?wow 00:58:37 he means 00:58:37 this 00:58:44 ais523: How would one typecheck an imperative stack-based language? Row polymorphism doesn't seem like it would help unless the language is functional. 00:59:00 functional FORTH? 00:59:09 rdococ: That will be a feature, but not the core of the langauge 00:59:32 (However, I generally use two spaces for indent, and put the brace on the same line as if/function/while/whatever.) 00:59:52 -!- tromp has joined. 00:59:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:00:15 boily: I will accept your "four spaces" theology if you're willing to use ​as your space 01:00:15 -!- tromp has joined. 01:00:29 hppavilion[1]: you seem to have accidentaly a word. 01:00:34 boily: I did not 01:00:37 boily: `unidecode 01:01:33 `unidecode use ​as 01:01:41 ​[U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] 01:01:46 hppavilion[1]: declarative FORTH 01:01:58 rdococ: That's kind of pointless 01:02:14 it is? 01:02:25 rdococ: FORTH is good because it's fast and works well with the low-level system, which does /not/ go well declarative languages 01:02:34 declarative prologassembly? 01:02:51 rdococ: Granted, if you can make a schema for a low-level language that works well on bare metal, I will concede 01:03:20 basically, the prolog processor would take data, then apply all the substitution rules in a loop 01:03:34 rdococ: It has to work well on arbitrary, typical processors 01:03:41 oh 01:03:42 rdococ: Like an intel 01:03:53 I think Forth is probably good for including in ROM BIOS (some old computers include BASIC), and can also be used as the built-in programming environment of a system that doesn't otherwise have one it can work good too 01:04:02 you mean a language, not the processor we were gonna design 01:04:14 rdococ: Yes 01:04:22 rdococ: We can still design a processor. 01:04:47 hmm 01:05:04 declarative languages still have some form of order to them, just not top to bottom 01:05:07 rdococ: But if you can find a way to (abstractly) make a declarative language that works well on bare metal, I will concede and help you design implement the rest of it 01:05:10 e.g. church numerals 01:05:11 rdococ: Correct 01:05:26 hmm 01:05:29 rdococ: Church encoding is best to avoid in actual computing 01:05:51 rdococ: Practically speaking, using church encoding is horribly inefficient. It's much better to just let the language access the actual computer. 01:05:53 hppavilion[1]: church numerals would be really slow, wouldn't support fractions 01:06:02 rdococ: Church encoding can support fractions 01:06:10 it can, but it'd still be slow 01:07:21 hmm 01:07:23 (λxyz.zxy)(λsx.s(s(x)))(λsx.s(s(s(x)))) 01:07:26 well, 01:07:33 rdococ: Look into x86 to start 01:07:53 every instruction is bound to have a side effect when it's machine code 01:08:10 I has x64 01:08:16 rdococ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86#Basic_properties_of_the_architecture 01:08:23 but I will look 01:08:26 rdococ: x64 is still x86 01:08:33 rdococ: I think. It's confusing 01:08:46 x64 is the 64-bit variant of x86, which is 32-bit (originally 16-bit) 01:08:52 I think 01:10:05 k 01:10:11 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:10:42 CISC 01:11:29 rdococ: You are correct that at ASM levels, all instructions tend to have side effects. This is why you should start with a robust framework for allowing side effects in your BMDL (bare-metal declarative language. Feel free to rename it now) 01:11:58 I would recommend naming it after a bird of prey for now, or a mythical creature 01:11:58 k 01:12:03 Pheonix 01:12:08 You can always rename it later 01:12:12 both bird and mythical 01:12:17 rdococ: I was seeing if you would choose that xD 01:12:21 and melts metal 01:12:27 rdococ: Oooh, that's good 01:12:31 I didn't think of that 01:12:35 xd 01:12:56 hmm 01:13:16 rdococ: So what kind of language do you want this to be? Most declarative languages are functional, logical, or functional-logic (which is the one I know the least about, despite being literally just functional+logic) 01:13:23 But you can also base it off other systems 01:13:36 hmm 01:13:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:14:22 well, stringal? 01:14:24 rdococ: You might want to choose to do something marginally declarative to start, like using FSMs for CF 01:14:36 rdococ: Like Thue? 01:14:39 yeah 01:14:40 thue 01:14:46 hmm 01:14:49 rdococ: That's going to be a MASSIVE pain to pull off, as most low-level architectures don't do strings very well 01:15:01 well, apply that string substitution idea 01:15:07 to memory 01:15:17 rdococ: Consider that a string will almost always change length when substituted 01:15:25 rdococ: That'll be pretty inefficient 01:15:31 true 01:15:33 hmm 01:16:37 so it has to be easily convertible into machine code, and yet a non-imperative flow 01:17:00 rdococ: I would just choose Logic or Functional. Functional is better understood by most people (including me), so I'd stick with that. 01:17:45 which one would be easier to pull off in a low level language? 01:18:05 rdococ: Probably functional, TBH 01:18:48 "functional programming uses functions while logic programming uses predicates. A predicate is not a function; it does not have a return value. Depending on the value of it's arguments it may be true or false; if some values are undefined it will try to find the values that would make the predicate true." 01:18:54 that makes sense 01:19:00 I guess functional is the way to go then 01:19:12 rdococ: Yep 01:22:20 rdococ: I seem to have forgotten, what are we trying to do? xD 01:22:34 rdococ: We're making a bare-metal declarative language, aren't we 01:23:20 yes 01:23:57 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:24:15 all of the memory in a Pheonix program would be local to their "functions" 01:24:19 nah 01:24:25 rdococ: That probably won't work well. 01:24:34 or 01:24:37 rdococ: So we want this to be the kind of thing you might write an OS with? 01:24:40 all memory is cleared when you enter a goto? 01:24:54 rdococ: Functional languages generally don't /have/ gotos 01:24:57 For any graph does there exist a topology in which it is planar? 01:25:08 rdococ: They have call/cc sometimes, but that's as close as it gets 01:25:27 hppavilion[1], counterpoint: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/GotoT-transformers-1.0.0.1/docs/Control-Monad-Trans-Goto.html 01:25:29 hppavilion[1]: but they have functions which don't fit a low level language, so goto is the closest we'll get 01:25:41 rdococ: OK 01:25:51 rdococ: Do we want the language to directly manipulate memory? 01:26:11 rdococ: Like, with support for MOV and such? 01:26:14 rdococ: e.g. should it be like a declarative ASM, or more like a declarative C? 01:26:52 ASM definitely 01:26:54 hmm 01:27:23 rdococ: OK 01:27:25 should we define "declarative" as a different kind of control flow, or as no side effects? 01:27:28 rdococ: That means no type system 01:27:33 fine by me 01:27:35 rdococ: Functional is no side effects 01:27:47 rdococ: Declarative is control flow, usually 01:27:50 that's bound to be impossible if we want to keep it low level 01:27:56 rdococ: "Declarative" is really just "not imperative" 01:28:02 we could do declarative with side effects 01:28:04 rdococ: Well, Haskell has "no side effects" 01:28:09 rdococ: In a way 01:28:12 haskell is functional 01:28:20 rdococ: Yes. 01:28:46 rdococ: It's not "No side effects" so much as "side effects are done in a way that makes it fit certain properties" 01:29:16 okay 01:29:18 so 01:29:43 basically, Pheonix would be an ASM-like language with a declarative control flow. 01:29:56 instead of going top to bottom with gotos and a loop 01:31:09 hmm 01:31:55 the way I see it, functional is just no memory 01:32:09 rdococ: Perhaps it should have FSM-like nodes? 01:32:15 perhaps 01:32:25 And nodes can do one of two things 01:32:29 (1) Activate other nodes 01:32:32 what would a node look like? one line? or like a subroutine but different 01:32:48 (2) Return to their caller 01:32:55 k 01:33:04 Along with various functionalized ASM instructions 01:33:25 they'd be able to return values to their caller, right? 01:34:05 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:34:43 rdococ: Of course. 01:34:48 right 01:35:01 hppavilion[1]: Zucchini. 01:35:07 rdococ: But they'd only be able to return 64-bit integers 01:35:16 boily: No, that's more neural network than FSA 01:35:20 so f(g(3, h())) would activate node f, which would activate g, which would activate h, which would return... 01:35:22 boily: Node activation is more like calling 01:35:26 boily: I misspoke 01:35:32 like my example? 01:35:40 but of course it would be ASMized 01:36:11 nodes would have access to some operations, like addition 01:36:59 rdococ: Yep 01:37:00 hmm 01:37:12 rdococ: Yes, but they are limited to side effect-reduced instructions 01:37:19 and they wouldn't have as much side effects 01:37:29 rdococ: So things like MOV are handled by the compiler, rather than by the programmer 01:37:42 even though it's an ASM like language 01:37:57 -!- jaboja has joined. 01:38:00 -!- tromp has joined. 01:38:06 it hardly sounds like assembly :/ 01:38:33 also, i/o is important 01:39:43 rdococ: Yes, I/O would be handled by special nodes I think 01:40:37 so this is like little ASM programs that activate other little program nodes or return to their caller 01:40:51 wait, can a node activate other nodes and return at the same time? 01:41:03 or return after activating other nodes 01:41:17 rdococ: (a) It is like that (b) It can't activate other nodes while returning 01:41:26 rdococ: But it can activate then return 01:41:33 rdococ: "Activate" was poor word choice on my part 01:41:37 It's more like calling 01:41:39 yes 01:41:40 calling 01:41:44 that's how I imagined it 01:41:46 rdococ: Let's translate http://wiki.osdev.org/Bare_bones into a mockup in this language 01:42:28 what about output? 01:42:32 rdococ: Do you know of any online collaborative compilers? 01:42:46 output is usually where most functional languages can't avoid side effects 01:42:49 rdococ: You call a special node with desired output 01:43:01 rdococ: Input is where the issues lie; output is just fine 01:43:29 I guess the only "memory" this would have is which node is activated 01:43:33 running* 01:43:50 rdococ: So to print "A", you'd do something like `out(65)' with 01:43:56 s/ with// 01:44:05 rdococ: Correct 01:44:13 one issue is that if you need to use input for more than one thing - like 3 + (x - (5 + 2x)) 01:44:29 rdococ: Everything memorial is dealt with by the compiler 01:44:32 * boily is singing mrs. robinson ♪ 01:44:48 rdococ: That's a good observation 01:44:50 but how would you tell the compiler that we need a previous input? 01:45:11 rdococ: I would have something like a "one-shot input function" 01:45:17 one-shot? 01:45:26 rdococ: It gets input the first time it's called, and on all subsequent calls it returns that value 01:45:50 uh 01:45:52 maybe 01:45:58 but then how do you get another input? 01:46:05 would you be able to call things with values? 01:46:18 e.g. pass arguments like f(3, g(2)) 01:46:54 rdococ: http://collabedit.com/7k7sj 01:46:55 hmm 01:47:39 that editor is terrible, I can't even chat properly 01:47:53 just remembered titanpad 01:48:07 rdococ: Ooh, linky? 01:48:22 titanpad.com 01:48:38 no sign up, instantly start typing 01:48:42 rdococ: Should I create the doc or you? 01:48:54 https://titanpad.com/VGxMnOzLl4 01:49:02 https://titanpad.com/fHMbT3YH5G 01:49:08 ah, let's use yours 01:52:48 -!- Frooxius has joined. 01:52:54 -!- Frooxius has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:58:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:07:08 -!- Frooxius has joined. 02:08:26 connection keeps cutting off 02:08:29 to titanpad 02:08:51 rdococ: Ah 02:08:59 rdococ: I'll make a custom doceditor later 02:19:37 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:30:57 The documentation of new version of SmileBASIC does not mention any QR codes, but it does seem it may be possible to store a program on a tape. 02:31:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:32:53 -!- boily has quit (Quit: MERCHANDISE CHICKEN). 02:34:37 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:35:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:38:26 rdococ: I'm back 02:38:52 hi 02:38:58 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:42:49 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:44:15 -!- rdococ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:54:18 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0mXCnzisV4 02:55:49 \oren\: ...huh? 02:56:57 <\oren\> shāyú! 02:57:25 Hm... 02:58:02 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:59:08 \oren\: I'm designing an IL/Processor and trying to figure out what I'm missing... 03:07:40 -!- tromp has joined. 03:09:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:11:49 -!- me2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:13:01 -!- me2 has joined. 03:13:40 What do you have so far? 03:17:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 03:26:08 What do you have so far? 03:28:46 Hm... 03:28:50 zzo38: Me? 03:29:34 I kind of want to adapt the processor into a full emulated computer... 03:29:36 Yes 03:31:29 zzo38: For the processor, I have registers, a memory model, and a collection of instructions 03:31:46 Register manipulation 03:31:51 Arithmetic 03:31:52 Logic 03:32:01 Left shift 03:32:09 JMP/JZ/JNZ 03:32:18 CJMP 03:32:27 Relations 03:32:32 And load-store 03:33:09 Does it use any special registers? 03:34:11 zzo38: Special registers as in things like an accumulator? 03:34:29 If so, yes. ACC, IMP, EXP 03:34:43 And in processor mode, CDE and ARG 03:34:46 What do those registers do? 03:34:56 hi zzo38 03:34:58 zzo38: ACC is where all arithmetic operations are done 03:35:04 Do you like the Mill CPU? 03:35:08 IMP and EXP are for loads and stores respectively 03:35:32 And CDE and ARG are for syscalls or whatever. For messing with BIOS or something. 03:35:59 I don't know what is Mill CPU? 03:36:37 I'm considering writing a custom BIOS for it, too 03:37:00 I found some information of Mill CPU on Wikipedia 03:40:09 zzo38: You can find some more information at millcomputing.com 03:40:35 zzo38: It's a CPU architecture with all sorts of exciting features. You should watch the talks on the website, if you do video. 03:41:43 I like some of the ideas 03:50:59 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x0363 0x036f 03:51:16 zzo38: Which ideas? 03:51:19 ​ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ 03:52:52 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x0363 0x036f | sed s/../ &/g 03:52:55 sed: -e expression #1, char 5: unterminated `s' command \ /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /g: No such file or directory 03:53:03 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x0363 0x036f | sed 's/../ &/g' 03:53:05 ​ ͣͤ ͥͦ ͧͨ ͩͪ ͫͬ ͭͮͯ 03:53:12 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x0363 0x036f | sed 's/./ &/g' 03:53:15 ​ ͣ ͤ ͥ ͦ ͧ ͨ ͩ ͪ ͫ ͬ ͭ ͮ ͯ 03:56:11 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x10900 0x10915 03:56:12 ​𐤀𐤁𐤂𐤃𐤄𐤅𐤆𐤇𐤈𐤉𐤊𐤋𐤌𐤍𐤎𐤏 \ 𐤐𐤑𐤒𐤓𐤔𐤕 03:56:19 <\oren\> rrgh 03:57:23 <\oren\> why won't my phoenician show up 03:57:49 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x10900 0x10915 03:57:50 ​𐤀𐤁𐤂𐤃𐤄𐤅𐤆𐤇𐤈𐤉𐤊𐤋𐤌𐤍𐤎𐤏 \ 𐤐𐤑𐤒𐤓𐤔𐤕 03:58:45 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x1d434 0x1d467 03:58:47 ​𝐴𝐵𝐶𝐷𝐸𝐹𝐺𝐻𝐼𝐽𝐾𝐿 \ 𝑀𝑁𝑂𝑃𝑄𝑅𝑆𝑇𝑈𝑉𝑊𝑋𝑌𝑍𝑎𝑏 \ 𝑐𝑑𝑒𝑓𝑔𝑕𝑖𝑗𝑘𝑙𝑚𝑛𝑜𝑝𝑞𝑟 \ 𝑠𝑡𝑢𝑣𝑤𝑥𝑦𝑧 03:58:58 <\oren\> italic does fine 03:59:06 huh, my client can render all of those apart from the lowercase h 03:59:21 what a weird omission 03:59:30 <\oren\> the h is a noncharacter 04:00:12 <\oren\> it is filled by the ℎ in letterlike symbols 04:02:44 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x2d00 0x2d25 04:02:48 ​ⴀⴁⴂⴃⴄⴅⴆⴇⴈⴉⴊⴋⴌⴍⴎⴏ \ ⴐⴑⴒⴓⴔⴕⴖⴗⴘⴙⴚⴛⴜⴝⴞⴟ \ ⴠⴡⴢⴣⴤⴥ 04:04:01 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x10c7 0x10c7 04:04:03 ​Ⴧ 04:05:16 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x10cd 0x10cd 04:05:18 ​Ⴭ 04:06:08 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x10fa 0x10ff 04:06:09 ​ჺ჻ჼჽჾჿ 04:07:55 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x2d27 04:07:56 ​/hackenv/bin/u8tbl: line 1: 293 Segmentation fault u8tbl.exe $@ 04:08:01 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x2d27 0x2d27 04:08:02 ​ⴧ 04:08:35 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x2d2d 0x2d2d 04:08:36 ​ⴭ 04:09:21 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x0528 0x052f 04:09:22 ​ԨԩԪԫԬԭԮԯ 04:09:59 \oren\: ooh, segfault. 04:10:05 \oren\: Don't be a dick to computers 04:10:28 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x26e8 0x26eb 04:10:30 ​⛨⛩⛪⛫ 04:12:19 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x37f 0x37f 04:12:20 ​Ϳ 04:12:34 <\oren\> rrgh glitched 04:12:53 <\oren\> ok so some characters need fixing... 04:14:54 Hm... 04:14:58 How should my processor work? 04:15:14 It has the necessary instructions already 04:23:44 <\oren\> oh I see why phoenician doesnt work! 04:23:59 <\oren\> it's rtl! 04:25:25 \oren\: Fail! 04:25:33 :) 04:27:20 <\oren\> and irssi desn't know that it exists 04:28:16 <\oren\> whatever, i added 𐤀𐤁𐤂𐤃𐤄𐤅𐤆𐤇𐤈𐤉𐤊𐤋𐤌𐤍𐤎𐤏𐤐𐤑𐤒𐤓𐤔𐤕 to the font demo anyway 04:28:53 <\oren\> `unidecode 𐤀𐤁𐤂𐤃 04:28:54 ​[U+10900 PHOENICIAN LETTER ALF] [U+10901 PHOENICIAN LETTER BET] [U+10902 PHOENICIAN LETTER GAML] [U+10903 PHOENICIAN LETTER DELT] 04:29:55 <\oren\> `botsnack 04:30:00 ​>:-D 04:30:23 <\oren\> Hackygo knows phoenician 04:34:07 -!- Hurqalya has joined. 04:34:42 -!- Hurqalya has left. 04:34:47 (hit him (between (get-attr him eyes))) 04:35:04 (assert (not (has-attr me self-esteem))) 04:36:03 (with (both (* 1000 lie) good-disguise) (hit him (between (get-attr him eyes)))) 04:36:14 s/both/all 04:36:21 s/all/all\// 04:48:51 -!- Hurqalya has joined. 04:57:12 -!- bb010g has joined. 05:03:16 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:06:52 -!- Hurqalya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:07:11 -!- Hurqalya has joined. 05:09:45 YES! MY HEX GENERATOR WORKS! 05:15:14 (Not to be confused with a hex editor) 05:21:35 -!- ais523 has quit. 05:21:46 -!- Hurqalya has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:22:04 -!- Hurqalya has joined. 05:28:49 YES! 05:28:51 IT WORKS! 05:28:54 THE PROCESSOR WORKS! 05:29:04 * hppavilion[1] dances 05:30:15 I THINK! 05:30:26 Memory is saved in a .mem file 05:30:30 As bytes 05:31:06 In the process, I invented a simple program that allows me to generate memory files with a simple hex-based syntax 05:33:15 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:33:26 -!- Hurqalya has left. 05:46:09 -!- jaboja has joined. 05:47:11 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:49:47 * hppavilion[1] rings the esobell 05:51:03 The esobell shakes a bit, then sends out three notes of silence. 06:09:15 zgrep: I have my processor working 06:09:27 I've only implemented MOV, SWP, and NOP so far, but it's getting there 06:09:51 But those instructions are far too normal. :P 06:09:59 zgrep: I'm not at the eso part yet 06:10:06 They're already too normal. :P 06:10:13 zgrep: Also, this is more a target platform than an esolang 06:10:25 People don't want to be able to *use* things, not really. :P 06:10:32 zgrep: I'm planning to write an esos for it 06:17:11 zgrep: One of my goals is to make a low-level functional language that compiles to it, thus allowing me to make the OS partially in something like Haskell 06:22:47 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 06:24:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:33:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:53:27 -!- tromp has joined. 06:57:55 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:58:33 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:15:38 -!- jaboja has joined. 07:54:57 -!- tromp has joined. 07:58:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:03:25 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:36:53 -!- deltab has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:37:13 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 08:38:28 -!- heroux has joined. 08:38:40 -!- deltab has joined. 08:39:29 -!- me2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:39:29 -!- pdxleif has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:41:39 -!- fractal has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:44:47 -!- me2 has joined. 08:45:29 -!- pdxleif has joined. 08:55:26 An alternative XML representation for RDF could be made up in order to make it easier to use with XSLT, since the standard RDF/XML isn't suitable for this purpose. 09:03:56 (There otherwise probably isn't much point in using XML) 09:04:54 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:05:18 -!- tromp_ has joined. 09:09:52 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:25:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:31:28 -!- fractal has joined. 09:40:07 -!- mychal has joined. 09:44:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:45:24 still no glogbot :( 09:48:52 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:49:04 clog is there though 09:49:25 (good *yawn* morning) 09:49:43 yes, but it's so much less readable to my eyes 09:51:20 you can postprocess the logs hth 09:51:36 i think postprocessing is just called processing 09:51:48 i am, in vim 09:52:17 whoa whoa whoa 09:52:25 does glog stand for gregor log 09:52:40 :%s/\(.\{85\}\) /\1^M / 09:52:52 just do that enough times, and i get wrapping 09:53:06 shachaf: quite possible 09:53:43 *i do 09:55:32 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:08:59 You can use the "fmt" program to implement word wrapping 10:10:45 this is in windows. 10:15:26 also, i don't see fmt supporting my need to have the continuation lines be indented more 10:15:49 (otherwise it's even more unreadable than unformatted) 10:26:06 `le/rn spaghetti stack/A spaghetti stack is the most edible data structure. 10:26:46 Learned «spaghetti stack» 10:27:19 A spaghetti stack is what a Haskell programmer would call a linked list, right? 10:27:27 i dunno 10:28:20 seems so. 10:29:00 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:32:55 -!- Elronnd has quit (Quit: Let's jump!). 10:34:08 -!- Elronnd has joined. 10:41:14 @tell rdococ It's spelled "Phoenix" hth 10:41:14 Consider it noted. 10:43:24 For any graph does there exist a topology in which it is planar? <-- wat. "planar" means in the plane, no other topology allowed hth 10:44:26 @tell Taneb Not every graph can be embedded in the plane. Every (finite) graph can be embedded in R^3. 10:44:26 Consider it noted. 10:50:26 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:04:00 -!- mychal has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:05:57 -!- hipsterslapfight has joined. 11:24:29 -!- boily has joined. 11:25:08 hobbily 11:27:34 -!- jaboja has joined. 11:30:29 oerjan: oooh, does it still work when the graph has the same cardinality as R? (assuming the axiom of choice... I suppose it does but it's a bit tricky to argue about it. 11:30:32 ) 11:30:40 bon matørjan. 11:31:48 int-e: hm i vaguely think i saw a trick where you use two planes and straight lines between them 11:32:09 and with a bit of care the lines never cross outside the planes 11:32:27 (one plane for edges and one for nodes, i guess) 11:32:49 might not even need AoC 11:32:51 oh, I realize I was hoping to use straight lines for the edges 11:34:39 hm you just need a line for the nodes, maybe. 11:35:40 then an edge from not x to node y consists of a line from (0,0,x) to (x,y,0) and a line from (x,y,0) to (0,0,y). or something like that. 11:35:44 *node 11:35:53 *line segment 11:41:11 int-e: oh. don't about a single straight line per edge. 11:41:20 *don't know 11:43:25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_embedding#Embeddings_of_graphs_into_higher-dimensional_spaces has a method. 11:43:29 ah, you can just put the nodes on the curve (x,x^2,x^3). 11:43:47 int-e: ooh 11:46:18 damn what is this kind of matrix called again... [1,x,x^2;1,y,y^2;1,z,z^2] 11:47:08 rings a bell. 11:47:26 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandermonde_matrix 11:47:42 (found it via polynomial interpolation) 11:48:20 anyway, the 4-D case shows that no 4 distinct points of (x,x^2,x^3) lie in a plane... this generalizes to arbitrary dimensions. 11:49:51 that doesn't quite imply no intersections. 11:49:56 (hmm, there's some projective geometry element in there. nice.) 11:50:29 or wait, does it 11:50:53 bah of course it does. 11:52:15 in projective coordinates, (x^3,x^2,x,1), (y^3,y^2,y,1), (z^3,z^2,z,1), (t^3,t^2,t,1) lie in the same plane if they are linearly dependent... but the determinant is (x-y)(x-z)(x-t)(y-z)(y-t)(z-t), which is only 0 if two of the points are the same. 11:52:29 (modulo sign of the determinant... I didn't check that) 11:53:01 mhm 11:53:20 I just had the stupidest idea for an M:tG card ever. 11:53:37 I have written some program dealing with farbfeld and one thing is that the command "ff-gradient 100 100 r FF0000 DDDDDD 0000FF | ff-paeth e | ff-bright a 1 | ffpng > /var/www/img_19/example1.png" results in this picture: http://zzo38computer.org/img_19/example1.png 11:53:43 b_jonas: What idea is it? 11:56:41 It's a split card. Slough | G | Sorcery | You may put a Swamp from your hand onto the battlefield tapped. || Slough | G | Sorcery | Tap target Snake. It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step. 11:58:47 I would think that each half should have a different name? 11:59:02 (Although a similar effect could also be made as a modal spell) 12:01:03 zzo38: yes, that's part of why it's stupid. Runed Halo needs you to be able to name half of a split card. 12:03:33 I guess a modal spell could work. So that would be. Slough | G | Sorcery | Choose one. / - You may put a Swamp from your hand onto the battlefield tapped. / - Tap target Snake. It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step. 12:06:25 Runed Halo would still work though even if both half have the same name; it give you protection from both (although your card does not target, damage, or become attached to players; also it seem to me that half of split card are supposed to have two different names anyways) 12:06:42 zzo38: how does Conjurer's Ban work? 12:07:47 zzo38: or Pithing Needle ... although an activated ability would hardly fit on half of a split card 12:09:04 While on the stack it only has one name; in all other zones the split card has two names, is I think how it is working. 12:11:44 Hmm, actually, looking at existing split cards, I think you could fit a sorcery ability and an activated channel or forecast or cycling ability on a split card. Channel would be a bad match for other reasons, but forecast or cycling could go into a fuse bar. 12:12:14 Although that would require a two line high fuse bar. 12:12:16 Hmm. 12:12:35 Well, forecast would. Cycle would fit in one line. 12:12:44 s/Cycle/cycling 12:12:56 (So if it is a permanent card (although no existing split cards are), then regardless of which half is cast, it is both while in play.) 12:13:26 Um, permanent cards don't get to be split cards, they get to be primal clay instead, which is even more confusing. 12:14:16 Just like split cards and morph cards and flip cards and double-sided cards, primal clay cards have their *copiable* characteristics changing. 12:14:41 And it's not just one very old card (Primal Clay), they printed another one recently 12:15:14 Molten Sentry 12:15:18 ok, not very recent 12:15:24 in Ravnica 12:16:05 Oh, and they reprinted the actual Primal Clay in M13 12:16:27 Making it a split card or flip card would have been less confusing. 12:17:05 No wait, Primal Clay has three modes. Then you're screwed anyway, it can't be represented as a split or flip card. 12:21:00 Primal Clay function in battlefield 12:26:20 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SERIF CHICKEN). 12:35:51 zzo38: yep. 12:36:00 zzo38: and split cards on the stack. 12:37:09 but they basically do the same thing: multiple sets of characteristics, one of which is active in that zone. 12:37:37 flip and transform and morph also do that, only those change within that battlefield without becoming a new object (but possibly gaining a new timestamp) 12:46:20 @messages-load 12:46:20 oerjan said 2h 1m 54s ago: Not every graph can be embedded in the plane. Every (finite) graph can be embedded in R^3. 12:46:40 oerjan, yeah, I think I was asking the wrong question 12:46:42 Taneb: see discussion above 12:47:47 Taneb: i can think of one alternative interpretation, although that one's also pretty trivial (make tubes) 12:48:02 I think that was what I meant 12:49:49 you can put some graphs on the torus that aren't planar, was that what you were thinking of? 12:50:08 but if you just glue more tubes on, you can embed any graph. 12:53:44 eek is xkcd having one of those big explorable ones again 12:57:23 am i suppose to watch the plants grow, or what. 12:57:26 *+d 12:59:03 * int-e finally reads oerjan's link on graph embedding and learns about the "moment curve" name. 13:03:14 oh. i'd somehow missed that it listed the same thing you did. 13:03:15 -!- lleu has joined. 13:05:53 (the answer to the plant question is apparently yes.) 13:07:08 -!- tromp_ has joined. 13:09:07 oh something faster growing 13:09:09 On my phone there was just a tree (or something; forgot already) repeatedly flipping (horizontally); on this workstation there's nothing. 13:09:14 oerjan: is taht still the april fools one? 13:09:32 b_jonas: i have no idea. but there are plants growing. 13:09:45 up to three trees now, one pretty large 13:10:17 i never saw anything other than excuses for being broken 13:10:22 for april fools 13:10:44 fizzie: it starts very slowly. also you should add more lights. 13:11:02 * oerjan went to explainxkcd, although that's about all it said. 13:11:24 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:11:47 (and they never mentioned anything about april fool) 13:12:09 you can also adjust direction and color. 13:12:51 i don't see any flipping btw, just general waving in the wind 13:13:00 (and sudden spurts of growth) 13:13:48 sometimes _really_ sudden. the entire trunks seem to happen instantly 13:16:34 -!- Reece` has joined. 13:22:36 wait what, it seems to have reset while i was browsing elsewhere. 13:22:51 * oerjan closes 13:44:04 oerjan: By "nothing", I mean the top navigation bar is immediately adjacent to the bottom navigation bar. 13:45:43 The flipping seems to have been a "loading" screen that got stuck; on my phone it now shows up briefly, before showing what I think is what you're talking about. (At least there's a bit of ground and a lamp.) 13:45:52 (On the desktop there's still nothing.) 13:46:19 ic 13:47:10 getting the readers to watch grass grow certainly seems like an april fools joke. 13:47:36 Better than watching paint dry. 13:47:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:47:40 especially when it's buggy. 13:48:47 fizzie: Depends on the paint. 13:54:02 -!- tromp_ has joined. 13:55:00 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:08:23 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 14:23:16 -!- I has joined. 14:23:39 -!- I has changed nick to Guest81305. 14:26:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 14:26:35 hmm, my garden is growing aninmals. a man, a turtle, a doe? 14:26:44 int-e: yep 14:26:52 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:55:41 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 14:57:13 -!- p34k has joined. 14:59:17 -!- rdococ has joined. 15:02:39 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:02:57 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:12:09 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 15:17:53 -!- spiette has joined. 15:21:07 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:21:45 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:27:34 -!- tromp_ has joined. 15:32:00 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:38:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:47:55 -!- lleu has joined. 16:23:43 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:31:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 16:36:56 -!- Kaynato has joined. 16:48:57 `? continuous chess 16:49:25 continuous chess? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:49:40 Where are the rules for that? It was so good 16:54:22 esochess 16:55:14 `? chess 16:55:21 Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation. 16:56:50 ??? 17:14:58 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:16:25 -!- earendel has joined. 17:21:00 -!- gniourf has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:26:54 -!- Kaynato has joined. 17:30:50 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:45:02 It's a good wisdom, a nice mix of facts and fiction. 17:45:23 `wisdom 17:45:44 agdq/AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever winter, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/ 17:45:51 `wisdom 17:45:54 catamorphism/A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep. 17:46:09 http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2013-08-27.txt has some more information about chess 18:25:22 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:28:17 -!- tromp_ has joined. 18:31:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:32:53 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:34:10 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:38:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:39:41 rdococ: Hi 18:40:21 -!- XorSwap has joined. 18:41:38 hppavilion[1]: hi 18:41:50 rdococ: I've been implementing Gryphon 18:42:01 rdococ: You load os.mem and it starts executing from location 0xF0000 18:42:34 (os.mem is a binary file holding the bytes of non-volatile memory for Gryphon) 18:42:41 (You write the OS at 0xF0000 to make things work) 18:43:11 ok 18:43:36 rdococ: There's no assembly yet though 18:43:45 hmm 18:43:52 rdococ: And no memory protection, though that might be a thing the OS does (I'm not sure how that works) 18:44:02 So you can write self-modifying code if you're feeling diabolical 18:44:40 good idea 18:44:44 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:44:57 rdococ: No, that's a bad idea. A bad, bad idea 18:45:13 an esoteric idea? 18:45:16 rdococ: I'm still trying to figure out how IO is accomplished. I can't take advantage of anything the host OS has, so I'm thinking pixel drawing 18:45:26 rdococ: No, it's been done before, and it's objectively evil 18:45:43 objectively? 18:45:52 how is self modifying code objectively evil? 18:47:15 * rdococ is confuse 18:47:31 rdococ: Because you can't read it before compiling without deep thought 18:48:08 rdococ: If the code changes at runtime, then (A) You can't be sure if what you're reading is everything and (B) Compilation becomes a LOT more difficult, because things might change that you weren't expecting 18:48:21 true 18:51:03 -!- Kaynato has joined. 19:03:00 Self-modifying code is OK, although it depend on the instruction set and programming language in use; in some cases it is bad or impossible. However in many cases it can probably be avoided (especially should be if the program is stored in ROM) 19:03:50 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:11:30 zzo38: or when the cpu is modern enough that modifying instructions will cause lots of cache and instruction decoding penalties, and/or require a jump or even special insn cache flush instructions to make sure the cpu notices, or when the computer is multi-tasked so the same mapped executable is ran by multiple processes or threads running concurrently. 19:12:34 The 6502 required self-modifying code, but at that time you didn't have reasons to avoid it. Now we do have very good reasons to avoid self-modifying code, but luckily the x86 doesn't require you to use it. 19:12:40 In the first case, I consider that to be a bad design. In the last case, the executable should have a flag somewhere to indicate if it needs to be mapped separately or not. 19:13:18 zzo38: they do have a flag. they tell that the executable section is mapped read-only. 19:14:19 OK, so, normally it should map read-only and shareable, then. 19:15:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:18:40 zzo38: there's probably a shareable flag too, not only access control flags 19:19:01 that's how mmap works, I don't know how ELF works with executables and dynamic libraries 19:31:41 -!- Kaynato has joined. 19:48:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 20:06:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:10:32 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:17:18 Currently the wide banks of UTCE are all Japanese, although possibly one or two wide banks could be allocated for astrology if there is room. 20:23:41 -!- Kaynato has joined. 20:24:25 (Maybe you have a better idea though) 20:25:40 -!- Caesura has joined. 20:29:07 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:29:46 -!- tromp_ has joined. 20:30:28 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 20:33:44 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:33:58 Hi :-) 20:34:24 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:35:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:45:51 -!- atrapado has joined. 20:49:21 impomatic: Hi! 20:49:27 rdococ: Here's a project I started a while ago 20:49:38 * hppavilion[1] waits for rdococ to confirm that they are present 20:54:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:56:09 `? agdq 20:56:23 AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever winter, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/ 20:56:46 `` sed -i 's/ever/every/' wisdom/agdq 20:57:05 No output. 21:01:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 21:03:41 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 21:03:43 the moderators at the yafgc forum aren't the most prompt at deleting spam. although they do get to it eventually. 21:07:37 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:10:39 hppavilion[1] 21:10:43 I am not present. I am rdococ. 21:13:12 hppavilion[1] 21:19:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:19:13 ... 21:19:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:21:21 hppavilion[1] 21:21:24 I am rdococ, not present 21:22:30 rdococ: I saw 21:23:15 rdococ: I'm making a language called Archae, which is an anti-tarpit with no documentation. 21:23:31 rdococ: You can access it only via the internet, and the goal is to figure out how it works 21:23:55 rdococ: Would you like to help me design it 21:23:56 ? 21:25:17 (Are there dual combinators? Like k = λxy.x, so ʞ = ʞx.xy 21:25:28 hmm 21:25:36 an anti-tarpet? 21:25:38 tarpit* 21:26:11 rdococ: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Uniquode 21:26:18 rdococ: That's an example of an anti-tarpit 21:26:53 hnn 21:27:22 how about duel combinators 21:27:34 core war for lambda calculus 21:27:35 (It doesn't make much sense for k, as where does the y come from for ʞ, but for s it makes a bit more sense- ~Sxz(yz) = xyz) 21:27:40 shachaf: Oooh, sounds fun 21:27:55 combinatoral logic? 21:29:25 rdococ: You mean Combinatory logic? 21:29:37 rdococ: You do get PMs, don't you? 21:30:32 yes 21:30:35 I see your PM 21:30:38 but it doesn't make a sound 21:30:40 rdococ: OK, because you didn't respond 21:30:43 Oh 21:30:43 unless it mentions my name 21:30:59 rdococ: So answer? Do you want to help design Archae? 21:31:25 rdococ: We can design it on a normal temp channel so that it will alert you 21:32:34 maybe 21:32:39 nah, just use my name 21:34:29 hmm 21:34:32 so an anti-tarpit 21:34:57 so should it be easy to code or hard to code? 21:35:33 it should overwhelm you with possibilities so it's impossible to know where to begin 21:35:58 okay 21:36:07 so take Lua, make a billion massive libraries, done 21:36:16 or virtually any other language 21:36:27 rdococ: No, it's like Uniquode 21:36:39 rdococ: It's a character-by-character thing 21:36:45 hm 21:36:46 okay 21:36:52 so how many characters can we use? 21:37:29 rdococ: Any unicode character is up for grabs, though we should avoid CJK 21:37:36 rdococ: Basically, the Unicode that is relevant to English speakers 21:37:56 ... 21:37:57 idk 21:38:00 rdococ: Most english speakers can't tell the difference between CJK characters at a glance, so we won't be using much of those 21:38:32 rdococ: We'll just do it a block at a time 21:38:53 rdococ: I think we should use a temp channel so that it won't be spoiled for anyone else on this channel 21:39:04 k 21:39:06 rdococ: /join ##zodiac 21:39:13 (That's a channel I own but rarely use) 21:40:16 How do you handle the feeling of hopelessness when the easiest bit of a module you have an exam for in 11 days seems so hard 21:40:35 Taneb: is it a d-module? 21:40:38 by saying your dog ate it 21:40:51 I'm afraid it's a linear optimization and game theory module 21:41:21 differential operators are linear 21:41:26 so it's basically the same thing 21:41:36 well, usually linear 21:42:13 what's a "d-module"? 21:42:20 `? d-module 21:42:33 D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them. 21:42:56 Taneb: what sort of things are linear optimization and game theory about 21:43:10 Game theory, and also linear optimization 21:43:37 i don't know much about those topics 21:43:40 what parts are hard 21:44:47 linear optimization isn't hard, it's very simplex 21:46:28 Unfortunately, the bit I'm struggling with is the background of what non-linear optimization looks like 21:46:35 With lagrangian mutlipliers and what have you 21:52:40 -!- Caesura has joined. 21:55:03 -!- ais523 has quit. 22:10:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:11:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:14:13 -!- shikhin has changed nick to korv. 22:14:26 -!- korv has changed nick to shikhin. 22:15:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:15:58 -!- iconmaster has joined. 22:21:24 -!- idris-bot has joined. 22:29:44 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 22:31:02 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:31:09 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 22:36:40 I just LOVE helpful error messages. "libdvdread: Can't open /dev/dvd for reading" ... well, turns out it was trying /dev/rdvd ... thanks! 22:38:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:41:12 -!- Guest81305 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:42:45 what 22:42:49 how did it get them mixed up 22:53:54 -!- boily has joined. 23:02:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:03:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:05:45 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:10:19 `wisdom 23:10:32 mips/MIPS Is Popular in Schools. 23:11:17 `wisdom 23:11:21 category-helpdesk/category-helpdesk is a helpdesk with identity and composition. This channel isn't it. 23:11:37 `` culprits wisdom/category-helpdesk 23:11:47 int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull boily 23:12:02 pm functionality isn't working? 23:17:25 I created that one? 23:17:31 rdochelloc. pm? 23:17:37 hellochef. 23:18:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:32:20 rdhelloc 23:40:25 rdhelloc it'll be from now, it is. 23:43:15 fungot: have you ever porthelloed someone? 23:43:16 boily: mr president, commissioner, i would like to refer to mrs wallis' point regarding quite a lot of european industries happy. i regard this as being a provisional situation and a step backwards in terms of social security systems or, properly speaking, pension schemes. i share the honourable members are perfectly aware, that will continue to be strong with the weak and weak with the strong, which enables us to achieve a bet 23:45:58 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:46:19 Here's something I started thinking of that's probably been done before 23:46:23 -!- tromp_ has joined. 23:46:28 Hedwig's Little Theory of Reduction Machines 23:46:45 Reduction is the process of turning something into something simpler 23:47:28 Hedwig? 23:47:32 An automaton is said to be more complex than another automaton under a system if evaluating the the former produces the latter, but reducing the latter never produces the former 23:47:37 boily: Hedwig Notta. 23:47:45 boily: It's the alias I'm sticking with 23:49:02 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!). 23:49:03 Reduction Machines is just a fancy way of saying "this generalization of cellular automata I'm making up" 23:49:07 boily: Does this sound like something you've heard of? 23:49:41 The generalization defines things like static neighborhoods vs. static-individualized neighborhoods vs. dynamic neighborhoods 23:49:46 vaguely like lambda calculus' eta reduction, but otherwise nope. my mind's a 0x20. 23:49:58 boily: That does sound right 23:50:49 A reduction machine is cellular if its neighborhood is static or static-individualized. Dynamic-neighborhood automata cannot be cellular. 23:51:06 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:52:40 (A machine has a static neighborhood if all of its states have the same neighborhood that remains constant at all points in time, a static-individualized neighborhood if the states have different neighborhoods, but they all remain constant, and a dynamic neighborhood if part of a reduction step involves changing the neighborhood of the current cell) 23:53:20 So Conway's Game of Life where each individual cell is a node on a graph and that node can connect to other nodes if certain conditions arise has a dynamic neighborhood 23:54:10 boily: It's probably related to eta reduction by virtue of being Turing-complete. Also, it was originally inspired by a functional programming language I was designing, so... 23:55:22 -!- p34k has quit. 2016-04-05: 00:00:37 `? generic 00:00:45 generic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:05:08 damned washing machine. end soon! I want my poutine! 00:30:25 POTATO DESECRATION! 00:30:32 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FÆRIE CHICKEN). 00:33:41 ... 00:33:42 <\oren\> wait, unicode is allowed in qit messages 00:34:02 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:39:47 \oren\: Why wouldn't it be? 00:39:54 <\oren\> the xkcd isn't showing up for me btw 00:40:57 <\oren\> does it not work in firefox 00:43:23 \oren\: Yeah, I just have nothing where it's supposed to be, between the navigation bars 00:43:42 \oren\: Seems to work in chromium 00:43:48 <\oren\> oh it's http: it doesn't work in https: 00:44:56 Ah, weird 00:56:42 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:10:54 -!- jaboja has joined. 01:11:37 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:18:27 [wiki] [[Xihcute]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46744&oldid=41867 * Ds84182 * (+994) Update Xihcute Instruction specs to my latest local version. Some examples will have to be rewritten. 01:21:08 -!- Caesura has joined. 01:33:45 There! 01:34:15 I have a renderer for my functional language working! 01:34:33 (It's a bit like funciton, but graphical) 01:41:14 so is it graphcial? 01:43:05 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:43:11 [wiki] [[Xihcute]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46745&oldid=46744 * Ds84182 * (-753) 01:46:52 -!- XorSwap has joined. 01:52:20 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 01:55:06 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:07:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:12:23 lifthrasiir: Yes 02:12:35 wait, is it the official name?! 02:12:46 lifthrasiir: No 02:12:58 lifthrasiir: I call it Functia for now 02:13:18 lifthrasiir: I would show you a program, but I'm going to have to program in all the vector graphics for everything first xD 02:13:48 is the input SVG? 02:14:06 lifthrasiir: No, the input is JSON 02:14:11 huh. 02:14:14 lifthrasiir: The graphics are just a frontend representation 02:14:28 lifthrasiir: The real thing is a much-less-entertaining JSON format 02:14:47 That you're not supposed to mess with, because there'll be a front-end editor to do that for you 02:17:54 lifthrasiir: A program is based on shuffling integers around through nodes 02:18:17 lifthrasiir: In other news, I thought of something called a "Reduction Machine", which is a generalization of cellular automata 02:19:35 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:27:03 lifthrasiir: One of the interesting things about this is that it's not so much functional as it is superfunctional 02:27:54 The nodes can return multiple values 02:39:33 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:40:05 -!- XorSwap has joined. 02:54:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:03:31 -!- impomatic_ has joined. 03:05:17 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:05:32 -!- impomatic_ has changed nick to impomatic. 03:07:44 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:20:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 03:33:33 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:35:02 -!- tromp_ has joined. 03:47:07 -!- jaboja has joined. 03:48:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:50:25 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:52:20 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:52:36 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 04:01:32 -!- variable has joined. 04:02:44 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:08:24 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:12:35 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:15:42 -!- tromp_ has joined. 04:23:13 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:26:31 -!- variable has changed nick to constant. 04:32:12 `? d module 04:32:15 `? d-module 04:33:12 *sigh* 04:33:24 D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them. 04:33:24 d module? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 04:36:11 I'm kind of tempted to add that to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module_%28mathematics%29 05:10:56 is there any existing language that uses unicode homoglyphs 05:11:27 i.e. & and & for binary vs logical and? 05:25:37 -!- constant has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero). 05:59:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 06:08:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:08:31 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 06:33:27 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:38:16 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:38:23 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 07:13:05 -!- lynn has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:14:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:14:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 07:15:34 Here's an idea 07:15:50 A CISC that uses acronyms for real things as its ASM opcode names 07:16:13 And the behavior of commands humorously corresponds to the behavior of that thing 07:16:31 USSR x, y is equivalent to SWP 07:17:30 (Russian reversal) 07:18:00 USSR 5, 6 can be read "In Soviet Russia, 5 is 6!!!!" 07:18:23 Heheh. 07:20:09 zgrep: USB has to be run 3 times before working 07:20:17 Heh. 07:20:55 Argh. My brain doesn't want to let me work on things I need to do, thanks to #ircpuzzles. :( 07:30:32 zgrep: What other acronyms are there? 07:30:54 EAAOOAIGORN 07:31:11 Or, rather... EAOAIGORN 07:31:31 zgrep: Short ones that we can make fun of the owner of 07:31:33 Extreme Abuse Of Acronyms Is Going On Right Now 07:31:47 zgrep: NSA allows you to read memory that does not belong to this program 07:31:52 :D 07:31:56 >:) 07:32:01 CIA should let you kill any process you want... 07:32:07 zgrep: Yes, good idea 07:32:35 zgrep: FDA regulates food and pharmaceuticals 07:32:41 Wait, that's the actual definition... 07:32:43 Yeah... 07:33:47 zgrep: DOD consumes massive amounts of resources for no good reason 07:33:49 FBI tells you whether or not a program is running, and how it's going to eventually arrest it if it is 07:33:53 :D 07:34:07 zgrep: I'm going to start writing these down 07:34:18 "Satiriproc" 07:35:42 NYSE -> Crashes the computer from time to time. 07:35:55 If you run it, it *might* crash the computer. 07:35:59 s/run/use/ 07:36:07 zgrep: NYSE? 07:36:16 New York Stock Exchange 07:36:30 Ah 07:36:32 :) 07:37:21 USD -> call it enough times and you can't call any other instructions unless you wait for a little bit 07:37:59 Well, I'm going to do stuff that I have to do now. :( 07:39:19 zgrep: USD as in US Dollar? 07:48:02 Did Randall just skimp off a comic? He's posted the April's Fool comic on Monday morning, and didn't post anything on Monday evening 07:49:42 This is very unusual. He's posted at least fillers every time so far I think. 07:50:08 although I haven't checked 08:09:38 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:10:10 -!- jaboja has joined. 08:11:08 -!- ais523 has quit. 08:39:33 -!- earendel has joined. 08:57:14 hppavilion[1]: Yeppers. 09:10:07 -!- tromp_ has joined. 09:15:57 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:48:15 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:28:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:47:39 -!- Reece` has joined. 10:57:03 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:10:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:27:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:33:33 @tell boily damned washing machine. end soon! I want my poutine! <-- i recommend not putting poutine in your washing machine hth 11:33:33 Consider it noted. 11:33:44 -!- boily has joined. 11:34:03 speak of. 11:34:29 afternooily 11:34:49 the doivyl? 11:35:08 int-e: thx 11:36:01 going around, tempting people for poutine 11:40:46 I was spoken of at? 11:40:52 hellørjan, int-ello. 11:40:58 @massages-loud 11:40:58 oerjan said 7m 25s ago: damned washing machine. end soon! I want my poutine! <-- i recommend not putting poutine in your washing machine hth 11:41:25 I didn't even get poutine yesterday. I was tempted by pizza. 11:45:09 shocking 11:47:53 there were interesting videos yesterday night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGmHNVUn07c 11:54:52 boily: the end times. clearly. 12:09:06 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:09:31 I still need to find a place in York and/or Hexham where I can try poutine 12:11:28 -!- tromp_ has joined. 12:12:25 are there any Québécois expats in the UK? 12:12:47 I have no idea 12:15:47 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:29:15 -!- lynn has joined. 12:29:38 -!- lynn has changed nick to Guest53293. 12:30:18 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CONTENT CHICKEN). 12:30:30 -!- Guest53293 has changed nick to Lynn. 12:30:38 -!- Lynn has quit (Changing host). 12:30:38 -!- Lynn has joined. 12:30:38 -!- Lynn has quit (Changing host). 12:30:38 -!- Lynn has joined. 13:03:51 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:15:56 `? zap 13:16:25 zap? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:16:33 `? unsafeCoerce 13:16:36 unsafeCoerce? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:00:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:12:58 -!- augur_ has joined. 14:13:02 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 14:15:14 -!- staffehn_ has joined. 14:17:10 -!- coppro has quit (K-Lined). 14:17:15 -!- Guest81305 has joined. 14:17:23 -!- \oren\_ has joined. 14:19:26 -!- bb010g_ has joined. 14:20:24 -!- Lymee has joined. 14:22:04 -!- J_Arcane has quit (*.net *.split). 14:22:04 -!- bb010g has quit (*.net *.split). 14:22:05 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split). 14:22:05 -!- Lymia has quit (*.net *.split). 14:22:05 -!- carado has quit (*.net *.split). 14:22:05 -!- \oren\ has quit (*.net *.split). 14:22:05 -!- staffehn has quit (*.net *.split). 14:22:06 -!- Lynn has quit (*.net *.split). 14:22:06 -!- yorick has quit (*.net *.split). 14:22:06 -!- incomprehensibly has quit (*.net *.split). 14:22:06 -!- jameseb has quit (*.net *.split). 14:22:08 -!- Lymee has changed nick to Lymia. 14:24:05 -!- Lynn has joined. 14:24:05 -!- yorick has joined. 14:24:05 -!- incomprehensibly has joined. 14:24:05 -!- jameseb has joined. 14:29:04 -!- carado has joined. 14:32:51 hmm, xkcd... I wonder whether there's a special case for putting a tortoise on top of a cactus 14:34:03 left it over night and pruned a bit: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cactus.png 14:35:10 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:35:16 -!- bb010g_ has changed nick to bb010g. 14:46:53 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 14:48:54 -!- spiette has joined. 14:52:18 -!- spiette_ has joined. 14:52:34 -!- spiette has quit (Disconnected by services). 14:52:40 -!- spiette_ has changed nick to spiette. 14:58:18 -!- tromp_ has joined. 15:02:37 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:03:06 -!- rdococ has joined. 15:13:22 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:21:22 <\oren\_> FDA controls i/o charset 15:34:03 -!- J_Arcane_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:52:37 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:53:43 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 15:55:35 -!- coppro has joined. 16:15:49 :/ 16:27:41 -!- Kaynato has joined. 16:53:08 -!- Vorpal has joined. 17:12:01 -!- iconmaster has joined. 17:29:56 -!- p34k has joined. 17:36:27 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:46:26 -!- Lynn has changed nick to lynn. 17:47:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 17:51:34 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 18:04:17 Ashes programming language 18:04:21 Ashes to Ashes, Rust to Rust 18:06:29 rust and ruin! 18:06:57 -!- Taneb has left ("Leaving"). 18:07:00 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:07:15 I need to be careful about which window is in focus when I apply a keyboard shortcut 18:18:49 Dust for Dynamic Rust 18:20:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:21:07 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:21:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:22:39 0b1010011010 18:22:58 666 iirc 18:23:11 it was in futurama once 18:23:16 myname: Dammit xD 18:23:53 it's easy to remember 18:24:03 it is kinda mirrored 18:25:12 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:28:23 myname: Not at all 18:28:42 > "1010011010" == (reverse "1010011010") 18:28:44 False 18:28:49 myname: lambdabot doesn't lie 18:30:09 > let x = [1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0] in x == reverse $ map (1-) x 18:30:11 Couldn't match expected type ‘[Integer] -> t’ 18:30:11 with actual type ‘Bool’ 18:30:11 The first argument of ($) takes one argument, 18:30:31 > let x = [1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0] in x == reverse (map (1-) x) 18:30:33 True 18:31:30 hppavilion[1]: lambdabot doesn't lie 18:32:07 myname: Whoa. 18:32:46 myname: I want to make a ρ-calcular functional language 18:32:59 myname: The wiki suggests it, but I don't know of any having actually been made 18:38:33 myname: Would only supporting doubles be a bad idea? 18:38:44 For n-tuples, you need to nest 18:38:54 (a, b, c, d) = (a, (b, (c, d))) 18:39:25 with tuples you can basically do everything 18:40:19 myname: Yes. 18:40:22 myname: And? 18:41:06 i am not sure what your problem is 18:42:14 hppavilion[1], you lose canonical n-tuples 18:42:40 (a, b, c, d) = (((a, b), c), d) = ((a, b), (c, d)) = (a, (b, (c, d))) 18:42:46 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 18:42:49 Taneb: Ah, good point 18:42:52 I assume 18:43:03 It's a point 18:43:08 Don't know if it's a good one or not 18:43:28 you can emulate them 18:44:54 -!- tromp_ has joined. 18:45:01 myname: But it grows exponentially 18:45:20 so what 18:45:54 myname: You can emulate them, but it's a pain for large tuples 18:46:29 Are there any other significant models for functional programming besides the λ and ρ calculi? 18:48:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:49:29 ρ, ρ, your boat; Gently down the stream; ... 18:49:54 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:50:37 lambda-11235: I hate you forever. 18:50:53 hppavilion[1]: :) 18:51:13 lambda-11235: Do you know of any models other than the λ and ρ calculi? 18:51:27 I'm thinking about throwing production rules in too 18:51:33 Functional-Grammar 18:52:16 I didn't even know about ρ calculi before you mentioned it. 18:52:19 pretty sure there's a pi calculus (concurrent) 18:52:33 lambda-11235: No, there's only one ρ calculus 18:52:34 how is S -> PQ different than \s.pq? 18:52:41 oerjan: Yes, I was thinking about that too 18:52:58 myname: That is probably monads or something 18:53:03 iirc there's also a gamma calculus inspired by chemistry / biology 18:53:46 oerjan: Wikipedia has nothing on it 18:54:08 it may have been just in some papers 18:54:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:54:22 oerjan: Ah 18:54:27 oerjan: Is there a socket calculus? 18:54:38 no idea, but pi may be close 18:54:48 oerjan: That's what I was thinking 18:55:28 oerjan: Are there any functional languages based groups or rings or anything? Does that make any sense at all? 18:56:02 hppavilion[1]: perhaps you can count APL and J as such 18:56:10 Ah, yes 18:56:16 they're based on arrays in a uniform way 18:56:43 and K. not that i know any of them enough to know the differences 18:56:47 oerjan: Is functional-grammar a workable idea? 18:57:13 hppavilion[1]: that term reminds me of the soviet language REFAL 18:57:24 hppavilion[1]: There's that calculus they're working on for Scala, called DOT calculus. 18:57:56 hppavilion[1]: where the hell do you get all your ideas from 18:58:20 myname: The big pool o' ideas. Where do YOU get your ideas from? 18:58:36 i don't have any 18:58:54 myname: Weird. You should visit the BPOI 18:58:54 -!- mihow has joined. 18:59:25 So I think functional-grammar would allow you to formulate production rules and entire grammars at once... 18:59:57 Is it possible to efficiently "invert" an arbitrary grammar to produce a string in that grammar, given certain parameters? 19:00:12 s/in that grammar/in that grammar's language/ 19:01:01 huh? 19:01:13 why do you need to invert that 19:01:21 thst is basically what a grammar does 19:01:35 the refal website seems not very active, but maybe not dead either 19:02:06 myname: Ah. That's useful then 19:02:27 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:03:34 -!- Kaynato has joined. 19:03:35 myname: I thought a grammar was like a regex... 19:03:42 myname: You don't usually invert regexes 19:04:16 left it over night and pruned a bit: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cactus.png <-- huh. i lost interest after it started resetting. 19:04:18 S -> a | b 19:04:25 so, ypu want to produce a word 19:04:30 choose: a or b 19:04:41 whatever you choose, you are finished 19:06:53 -!- mihow has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:06:57 myname: Yes... 19:07:34 So I think functional-grammar would allow you tohppavilion[1]> Is it possible to efficiently "invert" an arbitrary grammar to produce a string in that grammar, given certain parameters? <-- arbitrary? no. that's pretty obviously just as TC as recognition. but for context-free, yes. 19:07:48 oerjan: That's exactly what I thought 19:08:01 oerjan: I had the distinct feeling I was going to hit the halting problem there 19:08:12 myname: I'm going for a way to sort of /index/ a grammar 19:09:38 So if you have a grammar "fib2" representing the fibonacci sequence in binary, then fib~6 gets the string "1000" 19:09:57 ~ wouldn't have to have its left argument be an integer, of course, but you get the picture 19:11:23 hppavilion[1]: for context-sensitive, it's probably decidable but with some huge complexity. 19:11:23 oerjan: What's a simple example I could use to demonstrate functional-grammar? 19:11:30 oerjan: Shit. 19:11:49 i mean, _recognition_ is PSPACE-complete there. 19:12:54 hm, wait, maybe it's still PSPACE if you are trying to guess a legal input. PSPACE is resistant to nondeterminism after all. 19:13:08 so, "huge" but not _that_ huge. 19:15:22 hppavilion[1]: i'm not entirely sure what you mean by functional-grammar, unless it's simply tree-rewriting which ordinary functional languages do pretty well. 19:15:49 oerjan: It's a paradigm I'm attempting to invent 19:16:19 thought so. 19:16:30 oerjan: It's functional programming combined with grammar programming; sort of like functional-logic. I'm trying to figure out how grammar programming works. 19:16:36 -!- mihow has joined. 19:16:46 good luck. 19:17:05 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 19:18:19 I need to be careful about which window is in focus when I apply a keyboard shortcut <-- just be glad if you don't have programs that exit on pressing "q" 19:18:37 (see: my bitchings about tatham's puzzles) 19:18:41 So... I'm thinking that pure grammar programming takes input at startup, transforms it, then produces the new string on output... 19:20:31 sounds like you might want regular transducers 19:20:39 oerjan: Perhaps 19:20:52 (preferably also something non-regular, except i don't know how that works) 19:21:28 So cat is main ::= {a -> a} I think 19:22:50 main ::= ".", [EOF], {a -> .a, ""} 19:25:28 Hm... 19:26:35 main ::= {Char : "."}, [EOF], {Char=a -> .a} 19:27:01 apparently regular isn't the word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_state_transducer 19:27:33 (although i _think_ you can describe them with regular expressions over input+output alphabet) 19:34:52 Is anyone else playing with BOX-256? http://programminggames.org/BOX-256.ashx 19:35:49 someone port it to android, please 19:37:20 Doesn't the web version work on Android? 19:37:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:38:48 i get an empty gray box here 19:40:00 Oh :-( 19:41:49 challenge: compress a go game 19:42:52 since you're filling the board, you don't need as many bits for the 100th move as for the first one 19:43:13 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:44:35 <\oren\_> the iceland...ic? ish? prime minister has risined becuz of the panama papers 19:45:22 he\\oren\_ 19:46:00 \oren\_: I'm attempting to invent functional-grammar programming 19:46:23 If I was in a position where I had to pay hundreds of thousands in tax of stash it away in a foreign country, I'd stash. 19:47:12 rdococ: Hi 19:47:35 hihi 19:47:38 hi hi hi hi hi 19:48:04 rdococ: I've decided that there are at least 4 atomic paradigms for programming 19:48:11 Wait, no, 5 19:48:20 Imperative, Functional, Logic, Reactive, and Grammar 19:48:38 And other paradigms can be made by joining them with hyphens 19:48:58 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 19:49:09 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 19:49:09 Functional-Reactive. Functional-Logic. Functional-Grammar 19:49:13 Reactive-Grammar 19:49:54 functional-logic is actually a thing 19:50:11 what kind of paradigm is grammar? 19:50:26 myname: Yes, I know about functional-logic 19:50:30 myname: It's based on formal grammars 19:50:36 myname: I'm still formulating it 19:50:58 myname: main ::= [Char : "."], [EOF], {Char=a -> .a} 19:51:47 how does it differ from... well... a grammar? 19:51:54 like, A -> .A 19:52:12 myname: It is a grammar. That's the point 19:52:22 myname: That program is supposed to be a cat, but I think I did it wrong 19:52:28 (.a prints the value in a) 19:52:33 (. is print) 19:52:59 i don't get what's unique about it to make it a paradigm 19:53:12 also, what different kind of implementations there are 19:53:16 myname: It's distinct from functional, logic, reactive, and imperative 19:53:25 how so 19:53:29 myname: And it's not a hybrid 19:53:56 myname: Grammar programming is based on recognizing input strings with side effects in the process 19:54:02 write a truth machine 19:54:10 myname: Which is, I suppose, vague enough to describe anything 19:54:11 OK 19:54:34 that sounded pretty much imperqtive 19:58:23 myname: I'm thinking something like http://pastebin.com/wJJFNUD6 would be a truth machine 19:59:42 myname: The syntax and design is evolving, so it's not very good yet 20:00:10 that looks an aweful lot like haskell 20:05:44 myname: It does 20:06:15 evening 20:07:51 i donjt get what qualifies it for a new paradigm 20:08:08 basically you are using pattern matching 20:08:19 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 20:08:22 together with unsafePerformIO 20:28:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:38:16 -!- Timzi has joined. 20:40:00 `relcome Timzi 20:40:28 ​Timzi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 20:40:33 `? HackEgo 20:40:36 HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in Mexico! 20:40:51 i thought i might have added that. 20:41:01 Timzi: any relation to timwi? 20:43:57 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:44:33 -!- Reece` has joined. 20:46:12 -!- Caesura has joined. 20:48:03 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:00:31 oerjan: sorry nope, just a name 21:01:24 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Gotta go). 21:02:32 -!- Timzi has left ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)"). 21:13:20 I was randomly clicking on YouTube "recommended" videos, and ended up at "ADGQ 2014 Bonus Stream - More TASBot", where the presenter thanked people working on emulators, such as "ais523 from the UK". 21:13:58 `unidecode ℕ 21:13:59 ​[U+2115 DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL N] 21:14:48 `unicode [U+2115 DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL N] 21:14:54 U+0000 \ UTF-8: 00 UTF-16BE: 0000 Decimal: � \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0001 \ UTF-8: 01 UTF-16BE: 0001 Decimal:  \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0002 \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, C 21:15:06 `unicode ℕ 21:15:11 U+2115 DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL N \ UTF-8: e2 84 95 UTF-16BE: 2115 Decimal: ℕ \ ℕ \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 004E \ \ U+000F \ UTF-8: 0f UTF-16BE: 000f Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) 21:22:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 21:25:55 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:50:58 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:01:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:05:34 fizzie: I've been indirectly involved in much of the TASbot stuff 22:05:37 mostly throwing out ideas 22:05:41 λ-calcular Core War was proposed on this channel a few days ago 22:06:10 I think I'll make it 22:08:24 Reactive Esoteric Programming game And Interactive Reparation Simulator 22:08:29 REPAIRS 22:19:25 -!- Caesura has joined. 22:22:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:23:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:23:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:23:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:29:38 ais523: tasbot was/is the nethack one? 22:29:54 Vorpal: it's a programmable controller for a range of consoles 22:30:00 that memorizes a sequence of inputs and replays them 22:30:03 didn't you do something to run nethack in a repeatable way, for speed run purposes? Is that unrelated? 22:30:12 that's called nethack-tas-tools 22:30:19 and only related inasmuch as they're both related to TASing 22:30:36 ais523: what about the bot with a simple AI to play nethack, I remember that being a thing too? 22:30:59 TAEB, that was ages ago 22:31:04 I haven't been able to get it working recently 22:31:05 ah 22:31:12 one of the dependencies is broken on Ubuntu 22:31:15 and Debian stable 22:31:22 however, it works on Debian testing and Arch Linux 22:31:36 thus presumably something broke and has since been repaired 22:31:37 -!- Guest81305 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:31:38 (the dependency, that is) 22:31:46 Tactical Amulet Extraction Bot? It was a (b?)acronym for something like that, if memory serves. 22:32:11 fungot: Why can't you ever be at all tactical? 22:32:11 fizzie: mr president, for the moment regarding the problem of limiting output, and the enormous risks to consumer safety. the commission participates fully in the european union 22:32:30 (At least it's not racist, like the recent Microsoft twitbot.) 22:32:36 fungot: that's great but what about Britain... 22:32:36 int-e: mr president, the european union 22:32:43 fungot: yes? 22:32:43 int-e: mr president, it seems to me indispensable to the smooth functioning of financial markets, the most immediately available meps will also be holding an initial discussion between ministers for education agreed to implement the employment policy monitoring procedures, including in the financial area and exploit its opportunities more effectively, more democratically and with complete disregard for the state of israel and p 22:32:49 fungot doesn't support brexit. 22:32:50 fizzie: the council's bodies are well aware that you have launched a website. consequently, the prospect of peace, freedom and property. this is why it is that committee that was entirely different from those of the commission to include in the main, to the greatest extent procedurally possible. given the approximately 1% annual improvement in energy efficiency. 22:34:30 fizzie: forards acronym 22:34:44 "tactical amulet extraction bot" wasn't chosen specifically to spell TAEB, it was chosen because it was funny 22:35:09 hmm, I wonder if we can get fungot elected to the EU parliament 22:35:10 ais523: Yes, in retrospect "TAEB" seems an unlikely combination of letters to aim at. 22:35:10 ais523: mr president, we are increasingly concerned at the violence of deportation, and in any case, as the commission has failed with these proposals, however, a sound corporate governance practices. the aim of producing a foreign policy which it has submitted. we all agree how important this directive is implemented in the various decision-making structures and political and objective equality is a ' food authority' s managem 22:36:37 devising esoterically significant pronouncible acronyms is respectable 22:37:58 `learn Despair is but the first step towards eternal damnation. 22:38:06 Learned 'despair': Despair is but the first step towards eternal damnation. 22:40:56 -!- earendel has quit (Quit: earendel). 22:41:48 -!- me2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:45:01 -!- me2 has joined. 22:45:23 ais523, if you wrote a bot to counter its effects -- a tactical amulet non-extraction bot, in other words -- would it be TANEB? 22:45:47 Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure how you'd write a bot to counter another bot, NetHack has very little interaction between players 22:45:54 and what amount of interaction their is is randomly targeted 22:46:10 *there is 22:46:14 I guess you'd be going aroud leaving levels for other players which were helpful to humans but confused bots 22:46:16 Maybe some sort of a sidechannel thing. Like the rowhammer attack, but calculated to ruin TAEB's day. 22:46:38 constructing doors in the Mines, that sort of thing 22:47:46 now I have a weird urge to go to the Mines, dig doors everywhere, then suicide the character 22:47:55 but the chance that a bot would stumble across the level seems low 22:48:19 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:48:51 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:52:45 -!- Melvar has joined. 22:56:28 -!- MDude has joined. 22:59:56 -!- acertain has joined. 23:01:02 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:05:13 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:13:52 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:20:04 -!- XorSwap has joined. 23:20:12 yay 23:20:18 why does everyone time out 23:24:42 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:27:28 who comes up with things like this... (II) RADEON(0): RandR 1.2 enabled, ignore the following RandR disabled message. \ (--) RandR disabled 23:28:01 -!- XorSwap has joined. 23:29:46 -!- J_Arcane__ has joined. 23:32:43 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:32:55 -!- J_Arcane__ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 23:35:05 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:38:46 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:38:47 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:44:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:47:15 I've just encountered for the first time in a while the downside of a Terry Pratchett book 23:47:18 I've lost three hours 23:48:23 Taneb: wow, you read fast 23:48:29 three hours only? 23:49:51 I haven't finished the book 23:50:27 "lost" is a bit strong 23:50:36 how about "spent" 23:51:09 Three hours spent whose passing I did not notice 23:51:21 sounds like a good book then 23:54:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:54:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:54:54 oh wow, that's big. http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Linear_propagator 23:58:13 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 2016-04-06: 00:02:25 That's huge 00:02:30 How the hell was it discovered 00:06:51 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:07:22 -!- rdococ has joined. 00:14:50 A pi-calculus language would be useful 00:24:03 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:32:43 -!- kaod has joined. 00:33:56 Hello 00:36:26 -!- kaod has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 00:39:37 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:40:06 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:42:23 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 00:42:40 -!- earendel has joined. 00:49:01 -!- augur has joined. 01:01:24 -!- p34k has quit. 01:16:46 int-e, Taneb, it's pretty unremarkable imo 01:17:33 gemini was a proper replicator which then went the extra mile and cleaned up the parent copy 01:17:51 -!- acertain has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:19:10 some people inexplicably thought that it didn't count because of that 01:41:53 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 01:43:16 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 01:43:18 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 01:48:54 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:59:15 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:32:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:49:24 -!- earendel has joined. 02:50:15 I'm kind of tempted to go through Wikipedia's {{Programming paradigms}} template and make minimal versions of everything on the list 02:54:07 -!- Kaynato has joined. 02:56:06 I'm starting, of course, with Action-orient 02:56:07 ed 03:04:08 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:08:23 The best I can come up with is very configgy 03:35:20 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:39:49 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 03:50:50 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:59:15 -!- acertain has joined. 04:00:37 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 04:08:12 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:12:59 -!- Kaynato has joined. 04:23:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:43:23 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 05:08:32 `slist [S] 05:09:00 slist [S]: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 05:12:37 more like [S]list 05:16:25 It's 18 minutes long and I can't watch it right now 05:16:30 :( 05:17:15 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:30:38 `?sgeo 05:30:40 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?sgeo: not found 05:30:43 `? sgeo 05:30:48 Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments. 05:30:52 Elronnd, hi 05:30:58 hey Sgeo 05:32:22 <\oren\_> `? hppavilion[1] 05:32:23 hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe. 05:32:28 <\oren\_> `? hppavilion[2] 05:32:29 hppavilion[2]? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 05:32:41 <\oren\_> `? HackEgo 05:32:42 HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in Mexico! 05:32:49 <\oren\_> `? EgoBot 05:32:50 EgoBot is my arch-nemesis. 05:33:22 <\oren\_> `? oren 05:33:24 oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a. 05:33:35 <\oren\_> `? \oren\ 05:33:36 ​\oren\ is an attempt to improve upon oren. The only thing it actually improved was name recognizability, and it made everything else... well, there isn't much else in a nick, is there? 05:34:11 <\oren\_> wait why am I not highlighted in either of those? 05:34:33 <\oren\_> `whoami 05:34:34 whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000 05:34:43 <\oren\_> boo 05:37:19 <\oren\_> `? norn 05:37:20 norn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 05:37:42 <\oren\_> \nick oren 05:37:56 <\oren\_> |nick \oren\ 05:38:00 -!- \oren\_ has changed nick to \oren\. 05:46:54 catern: whoa whoa whoa, which one 05:47:12 shachaf: two sigma 05:48:16 `whoami 05:48:16 whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000 05:48:53 shachaf: why choose this channel in particular to ask that?? 05:49:04 catern: Which one would you prefer? 05:49:19 no preference 05:49:35 `whoami 05:49:36 whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000 05:49:37 who am I 05:49:40 WHO AM I 05:49:41 AAAAAAAAAH 05:50:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_8yPap-k_s 05:50:23 catern: then there you go hth 05:50:30 I would have slightly preferred an unlogged channel. 05:50:41 But where can you get those anymore? 05:50:53 shachaf: there's also, you know, PMs 05:51:04 That's a bit rude. 05:51:14 And besides you have too many usernames, I wouldn't know which one. 05:52:06 good points 06:20:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:22:54 0 is the antiprime 06:36:11 -!- MoALTz has joined. 06:40:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:53:28 -!- tromp_ has joined. 06:54:14 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 06:54:29 -!- idris-bot has joined. 06:55:26 Imagine a number ζ, such that ζ + x = ζ, similar to how 0*x = 0. 06:55:57 lambda-11235: Interesting... 06:58:33 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:58:35 x - ζ might even be worse than x/0. 06:59:58 -!- ais523 has quit. 07:00:03 Actually, -ζ is simpler, like 0^(-1). 07:00:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 07:00:51 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:00:57 lambda-11235: +inf and -inf have that property in IEEE floating point, assuming that x is finite 07:01:22 If you add a number like that addition isn't a group anymore. 07:02:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:03:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 07:03:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 07:03:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 07:05:37 shachaf: Didn't stop us from defining 0, in the case of multiplation. 07:10:44 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Good night). 07:17:12 Ω-calculus: The world's first 2D compound calculus 07:17:18 Whatever that means 07:21:28 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 07:23:53 Actually, 2D functional might work... 07:23:57 Lambdaplex 07:36:47 λx.v 07:36:48 ^ < 07:36:54 (Omega) 07:38:49 hppavilion[1]: it does sound interesting! 07:38:56 lifthrasiir: Yay! 07:40:48 hppavilion[1]: https://csvoss.github.io/projects/2015/11/08/lambda-circuitry.html 07:40:51 heh. 07:45:11 ah fuck, I was going to paste a link to De Bruijn index and forgot who it is named after 07:45:15 dang 07:47:02 lifthrasiir: I'm also trying to make a graphical-functional language, but I'm having trouble separating the rendering from the internal language desing 07:47:05 *design 07:47:53 desing sounds like a word 07:48:38 when one sings a song, another can desing the song to silence the sound 07:53:45 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:54:55 -!- tromp_ has joined. 07:59:21 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:50:27 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:51:27 oerjan: What was your porridge recommendation again? 08:51:47 oerjan: I have some milk just past the expiration date. 08:56:05 I generally recomment unexpired milk for porridge 09:03:15 A treetrix is like a matrix, but instead of being an array^2, it's a tree^2 09:03:32 (Where all nodes are filled in up to a certain level) 09:03:37 (And no further) 09:03:46 Define treetrix multiplication. 09:08:28 a tree^2 is a tree 09:09:06 olsner: What's special about porridge that it needs unexpired milk? 09:12:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:13:08 porridge is not special at all 09:14:40 that's why it doesn't come with special provisions for expired milk 09:22:31 -!- infinitymaster has joined. 09:31:47 olsner: Well, I'm sure the expiration date is conservative. 09:33:57 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:39:43 In http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/comic/millie/comic?n=19990413 (Ozy and Millie strip), Stephan is collecting Gathering: The Obsession cards, and says he has doubles of the "Spell of Protection Against Brain Eating" card. 09:40:32 Now if such a card exists, then there's probably one in the Shadows over Innistrad block. Is there such a card in the SOI set, which one if so, and could one exist if no? 09:43:02 -!- infinitymaster has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 09:48:53 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:57:45 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:59:20 b_jonas: well, brain eating would probably be represented as discard or exile from library or hand 09:59:36 "Appetite for Brains" exiles a card of CMC 4 or greater from its target's hand 10:00:05 I don't think SoI has a card that protects your hand from discard/exile effects specifically 10:01:05 ais523: I could be wrong, but I think in SOI it's represented as milling and discard. Not as exile. 10:01:14 Sigarda, Heron's Grace is the closest card in the set, it protects you from effects that are targeted at you (and thus from pretty much every effect ever printed that targets your hand, as they tend to be templated "target player's hand") 10:01:22 Wait, exilesw a card from your hand? hmm 10:01:55 but she's only a spell in the very technical sense, as she's represented in-game by the spell that summons her 10:02:13 summoning an Angel is not what "Spell of Protection Against Brain Eating" implies to me 10:16:12 ais523: yes, I'd like to ignore the "Spell of" part, and even then "Protection Against" is strange as a card name, but I think that's only because Dana wasn't very familiar with M:tG when she wrote that 10:19:16 ais523: I guess Sigarda, Heron's Grace would protect you from stuff like Duress and Hymn to Tourach, but it doesn't protect you from creates like Chittering Rats or Alley Grafters 10:19:44 It also doesn't protect you from Thought Nibbler and its kin, but that's an upside 10:23:40 -!- rdococ has joined. 10:49:01 ) 8 > 6 10:49:28 hmm, I'll have to do that computation locally then 10:49:36 it says 1 11:26:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:31:53 -!- boily has joined. 11:37:00 -!- earendel has joined. 11:44:58 -!- Froox has joined. 11:47:51 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:54:55 oerjan: What was your porridge recommendation again? <-- rice or sour cream hth 11:59:51 hellørjan. discussing porridges? 12:00:34 shachaf is bringing up expired topics 12:02:24 i mean, bohi, shachaf is bringing up expired topily. 12:14:25 -!- gniourf has joined. 12:14:41 that set the record of the longest portboilhello ever... 12:15:39 too bad my brain works so slowly. 12:16:00 . o O ( mmmh... do I have enough time in the morning for 皮蛋瘦肉粥... ) 12:17:16 I'm out of coffee. I'll have to wait for April 16th to get some. 12:17:40 that sounds like a severy shortage 12:19:07 also, google translate utterly fails at that thing above. 12:19:58 http://img.wuhu.cc/2011/0920/20110920232345168487.jpg 12:21:11 century eggs and pork congee. put in a few bits of http://travelerfolio.com/travelerfolio/uploads/you_tiao.jpg in it and you got yourself one heathy breakfast. 12:21:15 looks more edible that what the attempted translation from japanese sounded like 12:21:28 *than 12:21:37 (the chinese gave nothing at all) 12:23:40 ok it works if i split it up 12:24:12 s/eath/earth/ 12:28:05 -!- boily has quit (Quit: LIPSTICK CHICKEN). 12:36:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 12:58:27 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:04:38 -!- lleu has joined. 13:07:06 -!- earendel has joined. 13:18:16 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:34:00 -!- tromp_ has joined. 13:35:37 -!- Reece` has joined. 13:38:17 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:41:06 Kitten typesetting? :D 13:49:48 zgrep: yes 13:49:51 also duck typing 13:51:19 -!- earendel has joined. 14:03:12 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 14:13:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:22:42 [wiki] [[BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46746&oldid=45723 * 82.37.112.224 * (+219) /* Machines */ Noted that Ben Russell's implementation has a (slight, easily fixed) bug in it. (See the lines in the specification about reading the jump address after running the instruction.) 14:24:35 [wiki] [[BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46747&oldid=46746 * 82.37.112.224 * (-18) /* Machines */ fixed a potential accidental impersonation ^.^: 14:38:54 -!- ais523 has quit. 14:40:16 -!- I has joined. 14:40:39 -!- I has changed nick to Guest96684. 14:48:12 -!- spiette has joined. 14:59:37 b_jonas: :D 15:00:46 * zgrep imagines a printing press that uses kittens... 15:02:18 pawprint express 15:07:01 -!- XorSwap has joined. 15:20:12 -!- atehwa has joined. 15:39:55 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:40:30 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:56:19 [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46748&oldid=46616 * Conor O'Brien * (+22) /* Languages I have made */ 16:13:41 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:15:08 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:21:09 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 16:23:48 -!- p34k has joined. 16:28:47 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:33:04 -!- Kaynato has joined. 16:34:21 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:40:03 -!- acertain has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:48:09 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 16:53:24 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:53:28 -!- yorick___ has joined. 17:01:33 -!- Lamarian has joined. 17:01:35 hi there 17:03:19 I woke up last night with two words in my mind "fish coding" and I told myself that it was very important to remember this concept in the morning 17:04:19 So I did. My surprise was huge when I checked on the internet and found out that it actually exists 17:05:16 I am not a programmer but a visual artist, so I didnt know anything about esoteric programming languages 17:06:32 I don't know where the hell this come from...could someone tell me what kind of practical application the fish coding might have? 17:06:49 thanks so much! 17:07:04 -!- acertain has joined. 17:08:57 I do not even know if this would be read by someone...but thanks, I am quite puzzled... 17:15:18 -!- Lamarian has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:16:01 -!- lamarian has joined. 17:26:08 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:30:09 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:31:20 -!- lamarian has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:31:23 [wiki] [[Reng]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46749 * Conor O'Brien * (+968) Created page with "''Reng'' is a two-dimensional programming language that borrows mostly from [[Fish|><>]] made by [[User:Conor O'Brien]]. While being large on structural and manipulation comm..." 17:31:37 -!- XorSwap has quit (Client Quit). 17:32:49 -!- Kaynato has joined. 17:33:11 [wiki] [[Emoji]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46750&oldid=45816 * 63.155.63.148 * (+449) 17:35:30 -!- Guest96684 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:44:58 -!- I has joined. 17:45:22 -!- I has changed nick to Guest74302. 17:58:36 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:58:53 @seen phantom_hoover 17:58:53 fan70m_H0o\/ER 17:59:08 !seen phantom_hoover 17:59:32 Oh well, can't remember how it works! 18:01:35 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 18:01:46 `seen x 18:01:48 ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen x ever 18:01:57 That used to work, but the logs are no longer on the same system. 18:02:42 Oh well :-( 18:02:50 Is anyone else playing BOX-256? 18:03:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:06:03 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:07:33 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:12:36 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:15:14 I do not even know if this would be read by someone...but thanks, I am quite puzzled... <-- and then he was never heard from again. 18:18:54 [...] Conor O'Brien * (+968) Created page with "''Reng'' is a two-dimensional programming language that borrows mostly from [[Fish|><>]] [...] <-- badly timed synchronicity! 18:19:00 -!- int-e has set topic: Quite puzzling | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from California. 18:19:46 at least shachaf fits 18:20:22 should it be typepawing? 18:20:34 nah. 18:21:00 i don't see what setting has to do with which appendix you use. 18:21:23 the kitten aren't mine 18:21:32 I've written a brief introduction to BOX-256 threads http://corewar.co.uk/box256/threads.htm (phantom_hoover might be interested when he returns) 18:21:44 one kitt, many kitten 18:21:58 but okay... pawsetting then 18:22:13 type doesn't have anything to do with it either. 18:22:16 `learn Kitt is the singular of kitten. 18:22:28 Learned 'kitt': Kitt is the singular of kitten. 18:22:35 wasn't there some talking car 18:22:41 Note: people with croaks will be treated as if they're from The Frogs of Aristophanes 18:26:24 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:29:15 `olist 1032 18:29:16 olist 1032: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 18:36:27 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:39:00 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 18:39:30 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:49:14 Oh well, can't remember how it works! <-- lambdabot used to have it, but it was disabled. i recall it was put back on briefly some months ago. 18:49:52 i think something about memory leaks was involved. 18:50:35 lambdabot obviously sees a lot of people 18:50:43 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:52:02 impomatic: oh, and you can try nickserv, it'll tell you when a registered user was last logged on. although that doesn't help for idlers. 18:52:50 thanks oerjan 18:53:26 bah (about 0 weeks ago) 18:53:44 it's not particularly accurate, maybe it has something to do with his nick protection. 19:00:46 -!- hppavilion[wc] has joined. 19:04:07 Esoteric Markup Languages would be accepted on the wiki, correct? 19:04:51 If so, I'm adding the family that Minecraft and, afaict, IRC markup is based on 19:08:44 [wiki] [[TheSquare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46751&oldid=12204 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */ 19:09:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Unbearable noise again). 19:13:32 [wiki] [[Start-reset markup language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46752 * 74.114.87.84 * (+1033) Created Page 19:14:24 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:15:46 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 19:15:58 [wiki] [[Start-reset markup language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46753&oldid=46752 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Fixed formatting 19:17:23 [wiki] [[Start-reset markup language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46754&oldid=46753 * Hppavilion1 * (+9) Called it "esoteric" so it fits on the wiki 19:21:00 zgrep: Hi? 19:21:37 IRC++: A markup that takes start-reset to the logical extreme (complete with stylesheets, a scripting language, and animations) 19:21:59 [wiki] [[EGL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46755&oldid=31899 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */ 19:22:17 hppavilion[wc]: Hi? 19:22:50 zgrep: Just seeing if you were online. I'm logging off for a bit soon, but I'll be on on my main account soon enough 19:23:09 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:23:57 Okie. 19:25:54 -!- hppavilion[wc] has quit (Quit: Page closed). 19:30:55 [wiki] [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46756&oldid=46629 * Ozwg6693 * (+4903) /* Command Table */ 19:31:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:31:33 tags: tcsc: oldschool low-level math solutions for graphic programming by ian bell [ the true head behind elite(tm) ] . http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/maths/ .. nice site 19:31:37 OK, I'm on 19:31:47 oops 19:31:56 sry.wrong window 19:34:05 -!- Kaynato has joined. 19:36:24 earendel: Those colors, tho 19:36:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:37:00 that's the authorization method. 19:37:53 i can't believe tcsc gave me the same answer tho. how can you not love ian bell. 19:38:02 * earendel alone. 19:42:00 -!- Froox has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 19:42:17 -!- Frooxius has joined. 19:50:35 [wiki] [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46757&oldid=46756 * Ozwg6693 * (+131) Formatted the table more 20:06:08 -!- lleu has joined. 20:06:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:08:14 -!- XorSwap has joined. 20:08:15 -!- rdococ has joined. 20:10:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 20:11:04 hppa 20:11:11 rdococ 20:11:36 rdococ: Use tab-complete to get my full nick. My client doesn't respond to "hppa" (my reaction time was just a coincidence) 20:11:47 Or just stop at hp. It also responds to that. 20:12:02 freefall takes a darker turn again. 20:12:13 oerjan: Is he serial killing again? 20:12:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:12:21 wat 20:12:49 wat 20:12:54 taw 20:13:02 hppavilion[1]: you're a bit nonsensical 20:13:11 And... now I have to go 20:13:14 so if we talk about hp, we ping hppa? 20:13:20 I'll keep my screen open so I don't log out 20:13:28 kk 20:19:17 do i want to visit a course called "computational metaphysics"? 20:19:27 -!- Guest772715 has joined. 20:19:29 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:20:22 computational metawhat 20:21:20 physics 20:21:50 computational metawhatphysics? 20:22:02 -!- Guest772715 has quit (Read error: No route to host). 20:22:03 kinda 20:22:16 lel 20:22:20 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 20:24:24 Computational: Me TA physics! 20:24:47 lol 20:29:47 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 20:33:11 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 20:34:03 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:34:12 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 20:35:46 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Client Quit). 20:37:42 oh look, a new o 20:40:38 `smlist 433 434 20:41:03 smlist 433 434: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy 20:44:26 -!- earendel has quit (Quit: earendel). 20:44:29 Phantom_Hoover: http://corewar.co.uk/box256/threads.htm 20:45:20 wtf smlist 20:45:49 myname: ask HackEgo, I think he is wise enough to know 20:46:28 impomatic, omg please use absolute jump addresses 20:46:43 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:47:03 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 20:47:35 oh right, it wouldn't work in this case 20:48:00 Phantom_Hoover: I would normally, but it makes the explanation easier if I use relative addresses 20:48:14 -!- earendel has joined. 20:48:56 "Remember memory is buffered at the start of each cycle. Memory reads come from the buffer, but instructions executed are loaded from the current memory" 20:49:07 i really don't like how threads work :/ 20:49:49 -!- earendel has quit (Changing host). 20:49:49 -!- earendel has joined. 20:49:49 -!- earendel has quit (Changing host). 20:49:49 -!- earendel has joined. 20:51:05 -!- earendel2 has joined. 20:58:33 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:03:29 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 21:04:08 -!- carado has joined. 21:04:40 * impomatic just crushed Roy's BOX-256 Smiley record. I'm down to 0x43h cycles 21:06:59 single thread? 21:07:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 21:12:54 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:14:53 No, 16 threads I think 21:14:58 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:15:15 Going to try 32 threads next :-) 21:18:16 -!- carado has joined. 21:20:49 -!- MDude has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:21:18 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:29:25 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:33:45 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:34:36 -!- carado has joined. 21:35:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:37:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:40:09 -!- evalj has joined. 21:45:48 heh the sample code is so slow :) 21:47:00 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:57:24 -!- iconmaster has joined. 22:08:03 int-e: For what? 22:08:14 the box256 box 22:12:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:13:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:15:59 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:16:04 the threads are fancy 22:16:42 OP as fuck is what they are 22:17:03 i,i int------eee 22:17:50 so first attempt at the multithreaded box is 0x11 cycles using 8 threads. 22:17:58 -!- earendel2 has quit (Quit: earendel2). 22:18:14 -!- earendel2 has joined. 22:18:30 -!- earendel2 has quit (Client Quit). 22:20:00 -!- earendel2 has joined. 22:20:06 What symbol should be used to open a pi-expression? 22:20:13 Keeping in mind that \ is a lambda 22:20:18 int-e: YOu have any ideas? 22:20:22 # 22:20:25 -!- earendel2 has quit (Client Quit). 22:20:43 Phantom_Hoover: That looks like a comment symbol to me 22:20:59 you've been writing too much python then 22:21:03 Phantom_Hoover: It doesn't have to look like pi; it's just for an anonymous thread 22:21:06 Phantom_Hoover: I have been. 22:21:21 Phantom_Hoover: Though it also looks like a preprocessor directive 22:21:26 # is definitely the best choice in any case 22:21:34 "box-256.com says: Out of memory. If you are the developer of this content, try allocating more memory to your WebGL build in the WebGL player settings. 22:21:41 learn2 lisp, or 2 haskell, then you can deal with it 22:22:15 shachaf, there's an offline version for windows 22:22:18 -!- earendel has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:22:20 -!- earendel has joined. 22:22:22 it's unity so maybe mono would work 22:22:43 -!- earendel_ has joined. 22:22:43 Phantom_Hoover: Any things other than functions and threads that should be anonymized? 22:22:52 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:23:09 if you're doing the pi calculus then everything is anonymised 22:23:28 Phantom_Hoover: True 22:23:41 Phantom_Hoover: It's not really full pi; it's just anonymized threads 22:23:50 shachaf: hmm, I've downloaded the windows version and am running it in wine... 22:24:50 Phantom_Hoover: I'm attempting to make a type-safe language to compile to JS 22:25:21 Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps with some array programming mixed in 22:28:19 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:29:39 hppavilion[1], i've just noticed that the pi calculus as defined on wikipedia doesn't have any pi in the syntax 22:29:49 Phantom_Hoover: Good point 22:30:04 Phantom_Hoover: You'd think they'd replace the v with a pi or something 22:30:18 that's a nu 22:31:02 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it is? 22:31:05 Phantom_Hoover: Looks like v 22:31:13 Phantom_Hoover: That just makes things stupider 22:31:16 you can tell because nu is bowed on the right 22:31:21 it'll be for 'name', i expect 22:31:28 Phantom_Hoover: I thought that was just mathematical v... 22:31:45 nu: ν, as opposed to v 22:31:49 Doubly stupider because (a) it's called "pi-calculus" not "nu-calculus" and (b) nu looks like v 22:32:06 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but it was all LaTeXy, so I assumed it was just the way mathematicians write v 22:32:56 why lambda is used for functions in the lambda calculus, now, is another question 22:33:08 -!- rdococ has quit. 22:33:24 -!- rdococ has joined. 22:33:38 -!- I has joined. 22:33:38 -!- rdococ has quit (Changing host). 22:33:38 -!- rdococ has joined. 22:33:47 -!- I has changed nick to Guest95899. 22:34:03 -!- Guest74302 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:36:51 those pesky greeks 22:37:10 oerjan, do you know where it's from? i can't think of any relevant word that starts with 'l' 22:37:10 wait was i that backscrolled 22:39:14 -!- XorSwap has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:39:38 Phantom_Hoover: i believe having read that lambda was chosen because the typesetters couldn't use the symbol church(?) really wanted, so just chose the closest they had. which means it may have been meant to be a /\ 22:39:57 huh 22:40:11 and that may have been from frege or something. 22:43:12 hm nah, frege's notation was much more crazy 22:43:14 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:43:29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begriffsschrift#Notation_and_the_system 22:44:21 although admittedly it _would_ be a good way to give the typesetters trouble. 22:49:39 `? hziulquoigmnzhah of cykranosh 22:49:47 hziulquoigmnzhah of cykranosh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:50:07 `? cxaxukluth 22:50:13 cxaxukluth? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:51:09 -!- Guest95899 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:52:10 `? siona 22:52:12 siona? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:52:30 `? Siona Patricia pa-Lehyll pa-Drusia Ishgur-Sal 22:52:31 Siona Patricia pa-Lehyll pa-Drusia Ishgur-Sal? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:53:56 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:53:59 are you just making up stuff 22:54:13 we cannot have made up stuff in the wisdom, sheesh. 22:54:28 -!- boily has joined. 22:54:30 @metar CYUL 22:54:30 CYUL 062136Z 14011G16KT 3/4SM R24R/3000V4500FT/U R24L/3500FT/N -SN VV005 M01/M02 A2997 RMK SN8 SLP154 22:54:37 @metar ENVA 22:54:37 ENVA 062120Z 27013KT 9999 SCT011 OVC015 06/04 Q0991 RMK WIND 670FT 28013KT 22:54:54 hellørjan. it's snowing. I do not agree. 22:55:13 int-e: This is scow. I shouldn't be playing this game now. 22:55:45 boihelly. this globabble warming thing is clearly a sham. 22:56:59 hellochef. 22:58:16 shachaf: then don't? 22:58:58 I'll just finish one level. 22:59:36 How is golfing measured? Number of nonzero starting memory locations? 22:59:42 Or do people optimize cycles? 22:59:56 I guess s/locations/lines/ since that's how the game highlights them. 23:01:38 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 23:03:31 is there any abusive trick to get below 2 cycles/pixel on the checkerboard, I wonder... 23:05:05 oh haha, barely below 2 cycles/pixel is doable 23:05:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:05:45 (single threaded) 23:06:16 oerjan: not really. Siona Patricia is from http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2003-12-04.0383.html and Hziulquoigmnzhah of Cykranosh is from today's http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4072 23:06:49 or not, hmm. 23:06:59 `? Tűzfagyhegedű 23:07:01 Tűzfagyhegedű? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:07:31 b_jhellőnas. 23:07:57 belloily 23:11:20 bǫily 23:11:27 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:11:37 there's no c to turn into ç, so ǫ will have to do in a pinch (also it faces the wrong way...) 23:12:35 unusual diacritic usage. I like. 23:13:09 Firėllofly. 23:14:44 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:14:57 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:16:18 -!- p34k has quit. 23:16:19 so what's the standard virtual machine package to use if i want to run windows or whatever 23:16:27 back in the day i used virtualbox but then it got oracled 23:16:43 -!- gremlins has joined. 23:17:20 Hah. 1FC cycles. 23:17:32 (but it's really, really stupid) 23:19:47 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:26:39 int-e: Oh, with threads? 23:26:48 shachaf: no, single-threaded 23:27:49 i prefer ahoily 23:27:49 with threads I expect a 16 times speedup, approximately 23:28:48 though it depends a bit on whether I have enough space for what I'm planning 23:29:39 Oh, you said 2 cycles/pixel. For some reason I thought 2 cycles/2 pixels. 23:29:52 all i want in this game is like 23:29:54 2 registers 23:30:10 that are thread specific and can be addressed 23:30:18 I want addressable video memory ;) 23:30:49 the checkerboard would be a lot of fun with the array move, I think 23:31:09 (which, frankly, I have yet to find a use for) 23:31:11 the nonaddressable memory is deliberate, i think 23:31:16 sure 23:31:30 it means programs are output-bound 23:32:34 Why does this game run out of memory all the time? 23:32:39 I have to scrap my programs and start over. 23:33:06 you are writing some weird programs 23:35:35 like are you doing the default challenges or trying to write your own thing? 23:36:11 This is happening in the editor. It's probably just my browser or something. 23:36:41 oh you mean your actual computer memory 23:36:57 Yes. 23:36:58 yeah it used a shitload of hard drive space when i ran it on a university machine the other day 23:37:28 -!- gremlins has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:37:31 It doesn't even let you copy and paste programs. 23:37:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:38:03 the offline version does 23:38:09 -!- Reece` has joined. 23:51:08 Are there any potential uses for a tratrix? 23:55:13 whoa whoa whoa, I didn't know about * 23:55:53 Because I didn't even read the example program, apparently. 23:56:03 Or the instructions on the right. 2016-04-07: 00:05:04 but will you find the forbidden addressing mode 00:05:51 (i keep remembering stuff from x86 asm which would be insanely useful and then realising it could never work) 00:07:56 Of course. 00:08:22 there, 0x23 for the checkerboard 00:08:22 Oh, I looked it up and someone has a 4-instruction solution to Checkerboard. 00:08:31 That's much better than what I did. 00:08:37 it is interesting how opcodes/addressing modes mean that even assembly is quite high-level 00:13:01 I did some funny pipelining :) 00:13:19 and I should be able to shave off one more cycle... let's see 00:15:16 -!- nitrix has changed nick to horse. 00:15:36 -!- horse has changed nick to nitrix. 00:15:51 right :) 00:18:23 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:28:33 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:30:33 myname: mynamello. I think I prefer ahoily. 00:33:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 00:34:15 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:41:57 GACK! just took a look at the outside world. weather was restored from months-old backups... 00:42:53 I think the weirdest part about that game was the term "memory depth" in the manual for the addressing modes. 00:46:53 oh god, you can jump to odd addresses 00:47:14 I saw that in the manual as well. 00:47:29 But that's not odd from a real-hardware perspective. 00:48:39 Here's something interesing 00:48:43 *interesting 00:48:56 Mapping data structures to control flow concepts, and vice versa 00:49:07 Arrays are FOR loops 00:49:19 Lazy-evaluated sequences are WHILE loops 00:49:42 Tables are conditionals 00:49:49 Does this work? 00:50:56 (Oh, and nesting data structures is equal to nesting control flow) 00:54:26 rdococ: What do you think? 00:54:51 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 00:55:03 hellambda-11235 00:55:43 lambda-11235: I'm figuring out a correspondence between data structures and control flow :) 00:57:51 hppavilion[1]: Hello. Have fun with that. I have to do English homework. :( 00:57:57 lambda-11235: :( 00:59:06 seriously, 4 instructions... wow. I have 6, 5 if I allows the code to loop through nops instead of jumping back to the top... 01:07:11 -!- Guest772715 has joined. 01:07:54 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:12:02 Oh, I missed all the BOX-256 chat :-( 01:12:17 impomatic, back my thread register scheme imho 01:12:46 otherwise the guy might implement that shitty LODPC instruction 01:13:16 What's LODPC? 01:13:54 My smallest checkerboard is 6. I've been mostly optimizing for speed though. 01:15:16 I have the new Smiley Face record now :-) 01:17:17 impomatic, https://www.reddit.com/r/box256/comments/4dfqlm/4_squares_4_threads_0x2e_cycles_using_a_beam/d1r7bi5?context=3 01:18:26 is anybody collecting records without solutions? 01:18:28 lets you get thread-specific behaviour at the cost of being an incredibly stupid way of doing so 01:20:47 int-e: I checked the reddit and hacker news threads for any records where the solution wasn't posted (for cycles only, no-one apart from me seemed interested in size) 01:22:51 int-e: int-ello. I can't stop binging QC. 01:23:16 Records are blue square 0x7, checkerboard 0x16, four squares 0x7, smiley face 0x2E 01:23:33 hi impomatic 01:23:36 I saw some of your posts. 01:23:48 impomatic: thanks 01:24:11 shachaf: I use the same nick everywhere :-) 01:24:13 Are those cycle records or line records? 01:24:14 so my 0x22 checkerboard isn't too bad then 01:24:34 shachaf: cycle records 01:25:07 is anybody trying for single-threaded cycles? 01:25:13 I was wondering about that. 01:25:20 Threads are TG. 01:25:32 int-e: that's pretty good. Only a couple of people have claimed less than 0x22. 01:26:11 (singlethreaded I have 0x5E for the blue square, 0x1FC for checkerboard; multi-threaded it's 0x11 and 0x22 for now) 01:26:22 int-e: I wondered about collating single-thread cycle results, but everyone would just unroll the loops and fill all 63 available instructions. 01:26:24 I should sleep... 01:26:50 you can use 64... 01:27:13 What am I looking at, here? 01:27:15 Only 64 if the last instruction doesn't use the 4th byte. 01:27:20 (if the last one is short) 01:27:53 "You must use a browser with WebGL. Consider downloading Firefox" > Running Firefox :| 01:28:58 There's a Windows version of BOX256 01:29:02 Is one of my about:configs wrong? 01:32:05 Works in 0/3 of my browsers. :( 01:32:58 what's your graphics hardware like? 01:33:18 if it's intelgrated that's probably why, especially if you're on linux 01:33:31 Radeon R9 01:34:09 `version prooftechnique 01:34:09 Oh, now it's doing something 01:34:15 fuck 01:34:19 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: version: not found 01:34:31 Hanging Firefox, mainly, but maybe that'll figure itself out 01:34:37 why do these shitty clients not have helpful /VERSIONs like xchat 01:35:05 lol i forgot about what i set mine to 01:36:03 Mine may be set weird because I'm connecting through ZNC 01:36:33 Or weechat sets something dumb :v 01:38:24 -prooftechnique- VERSION WeeChat 1.4 (Mar 10 2016) via ZNC 1.6.2 - http://znc.in 01:38:41 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 01:38:46 Oh, neat 01:40:04 huh i can't get rid of the actual legitimate /VERSION 01:40:08 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Client Quit). 01:42:04 -!- Guest772715 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:42:32 Hi #esoteric 01:42:46 catello! 01:42:59 Are there any esoteric languages that don't parse to a tree, but rather parse to a DAG or a cyclic graph? 01:43:27 You can think of any lambda calculus expression as parsing to a directed graph. 01:43:46 Do you mean that it's observable from within the language? 01:45:37 Oh, well, I'm just asking because during an intro talk on compilers (that I am currently sitting in), the presenter said "Languages usually parse to a tree" 01:46:06 I was wondering if there was any way one could justify making that "usually" qualification 01:46:14 (instead of "always") 01:46:54 And I thought #esoteric might be helpful 01:47:35 Maybe this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_semantic_graph 01:47:45 shachaf, what, because you merge identical subexpressions? 01:47:50 Looks like a compiler could use it for CSE and whatnot 01:48:03 I don't think Befunge parses into a tree typically. 01:48:12 Phantom_Hoover: I mean that every use of a variable has an edge pointing to the lambda introducing it. 01:48:12 befunge doesn't parse 01:48:21 At least, I don't see any sane way of representing a Befunge program as a tree in any meaningful sense. :) 01:48:41 shachaf, 'use' in that context sounds like it's still a directed tree 01:49:07 there's not even such a thing as a syntactically illegal befunge program, is there? 01:49:29 Well, there is in Befunge 93 at least. 01:49:34 :P 01:50:26 -!- Guest772715 has joined. 01:51:00 catern: Andres Löh actually has a paper on using ASGs for DSLs, which might be of interest 01:51:09 pikhq, how? 01:51:21 as specified i think befunge programs are just a grid of 'commands' 01:51:22 Phantom_Hoover: Being larger than 80x25 01:51:33 :/ 01:52:23 Bit of a cop-out, heh 01:59:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:01:57 Arguably, also files containing form feeds in {Une,Be}funge-98, and files containing newlines in Unefunge-98. (Although strictly speaking the spec does explicitly allow multi-line Unefunge-98 programs, the lines are just concatenated. And it doesn't specify what form feed does outside of Trefunge-98, so you could say by omission it's just a regular character. But still.) 02:02:36 Oh, and the Funge-98 spec says that Befunge-93 only allows "printable ASCII characters and the end-of-line controls". 02:11:29 catern: I proposed that a while ago 02:12:35 fizzie: A fungeoid... based on Numerical Computing 02:12:51 fizzie: So you can calculate the product of two programs 02:13:16 (For individual instructions, + is parallel composition, * is sequential composition) 02:13:55 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 02:34:38 Pigeonhole principal time! 02:35:45 If you have a multigroup (S, [a], [b], [c]), then there are infinitely many possible equations. 02:36:35 *for any number of variables n 02:36:52 However, there are only (#S)^(n+2) possible n-ary functions 02:37:34 I conclude that there is more than one way to write some equations 02:37:48 And I conjecture that there are infinitely many ways to write any given equation 02:37:57 Therefor, I conclude, Algebra is a silly field 02:38:15 You take that filth back, you monster 02:38:29 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 02:38:38 -!- Guest772715 has quit (Read error: No route to host). 02:38:39 prooftechnique: Too late, already published. 02:38:59 I counter with "Up To Isomorphism" 02:39:14 prooftechnique: Correct. 02:39:15 (aka, the algebraist's trump) 02:39:17 prooftechnique: Still funny. 02:39:21 s/funny/silly/ 02:39:53 hppavilion[1]: principle, not principal :P 02:40:06 boily: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU 02:40:11 F7U12 02:40:19 DOES NOT PASS PEER REVIEW. GRANT DENIED 02:40:33 Algebra lives to fight another day 02:41:01 prooftechnique: Didn't need a grant. 02:41:13 prooftechnique: Do you understand tensors? 02:41:49 Not in a way that I could talk at length about them without some reference material to back me up 02:42:30 prooftechnique: Do you understand them enough to transfer some understanding to someone who doesn't 02:42:30 ? 02:42:45 Depends what you need to understand, I suppose. I could try 02:43:17 prooftechnique: I don't understand them /at all/ 02:43:22 I understand what a vector space is 02:43:36 But I don't get tensors 02:44:10 prooftechnique: What I want to do is make a tensor programming language 02:44:21 Oh, jeez. 02:44:23 Not a language which uses tensors like an array programming language uses arrays 02:44:38 And what does that look like, in your mind? 02:44:43 prooftechnique: I have no idea 02:44:50 prooftechnique: I want to make a language for which the /programs/ are... tensory? 02:46:33 prooftechnique: I don't necessarily want to do it right now 02:46:45 What property of tensors would you want to apply to a program? 02:46:57 Do you want the tensor product of programs? 02:47:26 prooftechnique: Yes, basically 02:47:46 prooftechnique: I want to be have a language for which the programs form a tensor (wiki uses that phrase, so I think it works) 02:48:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: MOVIE CHICKEN). 02:48:23 Unfortunately, I think I need to go 02:48:29 Well, I'd start by figuring out what that means. Maybe figure out what the Cartesian product of programs in a set language is, or what the space of linear transformations from programs to programs looks like 02:49:06 Assuming that programs are themselves vector spaces, that is 02:56:24 -!- earendel has quit (Quit: earendel). 03:02:27 Oh finally, I see, the two square problems are badly designed... there's enough space to just draw all pixels explicitly. 03:30:54 -!- Kaynato has joined. 03:51:14 prooftechnique: Well, the cartprod of two programs {a, b, c} and {1, 2, 3} is {(a, 1), (a, 2), (a, 3), (b, 1), (b, 2), (b, 3), (c, 1), (c, 2), (c, 3)} 03:51:32 The set is parallel-composed and the tuples are sequential-composesd 03:51:34 *composed 03:52:33 -!- earendel has joined. 03:53:23 The programs {a, b, c} and {1, 2, 3} represent set programs, in which instructions are non-blocking 03:57:34 prooftechnique: Programs-as-vector-spaces sounds interesting, but I was thinking programs-as-vectors. But programs-as-vector-spaces sounds more interesting 04:07:50 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:10:13 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 04:15:32 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:19:06 -!- Reece` has joined. 04:37:57 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:38:58 -!- Reece` has joined. 04:39:07 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:40:07 -!- Reece` has joined. 04:49:43 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:50:48 -!- Reece` has joined. 04:53:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:05:33 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:09:09 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:10:23 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 05:13:53 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 05:14:58 -!- Reece` has joined. 05:18:12 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit). 05:19:13 -!- Reece` has joined. 05:25:00 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 05:26:49 -!- Reece` has joined. 05:27:24 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit). 05:32:20 -!- Reece` has joined. 05:40:06 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 06:30:24 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:39:58 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:41:04 "Strict superset of perl" 06:42:06 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 06:52:37 I want to make a C++ that doesn't suck 06:52:39 For personal use 06:53:12 w 06:54:46 why not just make ont hat sucks a little bit? 07:06:45 newsham: That's probably how it'll come out 07:06:50 Currently, I need a new C++ compiler 07:07:17 -!- jaboja has joined. 07:07:31 hppavilion[1]: why? 07:07:37 what's wrong with the old one? 07:08:00 coppro: Well, it's not suitable for operator-heavy development 07:08:12 why not? 07:08:13 coppro: I would like to be able to define new & arbitrarily-named operators at will 07:08:36 coppro: So I could have different operators for element-wise multiplication and traditional matrix multiplication 07:08:42 * and @ most likely 07:08:46 s/new C++ compiler/new C++ language/ 07:09:06 coppro: No, I also need a new C++ compiler 07:09:11 coppro: My current one seems to be corrupted 07:09:25 w 07:09:31 It prints out endless garbage when I try to compile a simple file 07:10:57 coppro: I'm thinking of calling the new language C⁂ 07:11:15 `unidecode ⁂ 07:11:22 coppro: Asterism 07:11:39 ​[U+2042 ASTERISM] 07:13:16 hppavilion[1]: then adopt a character ⁂. http://unicode.org/consortium/adopt-a-character.html 07:18:30 -!- pelegreno has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:19:55 There, got it working 07:20:17 Oh... found the issue 07:20:39 I had accidentally targetted the compilation of main.cpp to one of its dependencies... xD 07:22:48 -!- pelegreno has joined. 07:25:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:41:50 [wiki] [[Kantate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46758 * Keymaker * (+5598) Added my new low-level language based on a simple addition mechanism. 07:50:48 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:52:02 [wiki] [[User:Keymaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46759&oldid=40487 * Keymaker * (+14) Added Kantate, some changes. 07:58:01 -!- tromp_ has joined. 08:02:24 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:17:52 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:25:14 -!- acertain has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:25:46 -!- acertain has joined. 08:30:56 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: [). 08:37:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:45:30 -!- hipsterslapfight has left. 08:46:39 -!- mroman has joined. 08:46:51 I was always getting shit for my irrational fear of dogs. 08:47:03 Now people are scared of people not wearing bikinis. 08:47:55 I'm pretty certain that getting attacked by a dog severly enough to see a doctor is far more likely than whatever a woman not wearing a bikini is likely to do to me. 08:48:09 @messages-lood 08:48:09 boily asked 3d 8h 26m 55s ago: hello? hello? hello? 08:48:22 @tell boily HELLO FROM THE OTHER SIDE.... 08:48:22 Consider it noted. 08:48:27 IT MUST HAVE BEEN A THOUSAND TIMES 08:48:50 that last one might be off an inch. 08:50:14 (currently switzerland's top topic is if it's ok for muslims to not shake hands) 08:51:06 (I'm guessing secretly everybody is happy if they don't have to shake a muslims hand but get enraged when a muslim chooses to not shake hands..) 08:51:55 is it "other side" or "outside"? 08:53:00 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 09:02:41 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 09:06:47 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Client Quit). 09:07:08 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 09:22:40 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:24:33 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:52:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:58:39 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:05:52 -!- zadock has joined. 10:17:07 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:51:59 -!- earendel has quit (Quit: earendel). 11:08:31 -!- Frooxius has joined. 11:26:01 -!- lleu has joined. 11:26:01 -!- lleu has quit (Changing host). 11:26:01 -!- lleu has joined. 11:28:46 -!- boily has joined. 11:36:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:49:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:51:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:01:19 -!- boily has quit (Quit: RESOLVED CHICKEN). 12:32:05 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 12:50:10 -!- tromp_ has joined. 13:00:55 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:02:34 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:13:03 -!- Reece` has joined. 13:19:08 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:23:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:26:14 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:42:50 does anyone else know of any accidentally TC tabletop games besides MtG? 13:47:32 * oerjan pings ais523 on that. 13:49:15 i know NP-complete and PSPACE-complete games, but TC requires a complexity beyond normal games, i think. 13:49:25 because unbounded state. 13:50:32 well, you need to generalize the size for the former, usually. so maybe they don't count in this sense either. 13:51:58 tabletop, not sure 13:52:09 you can do things like infinite generalizations of Sokoban and Minesweeper 13:52:34 finding a game that naturally has infinite storage is hard, though 13:52:55 and the ones that do, like Monopoly, don't have any obvious way to use it or do computations based on it 13:53:13 hmm, what about Monopoly where the program is a repeating sequence of dice rolls? 13:58:43 ais523: IMO what makes it hard to find TC-ness is that in the typical PSPACE-completeness proof of a game like sokoban or mario, you built the memory cells in the polynomial time preprocessing, and they're represented in-game as something like immutable in-game rooms. For TC you have to find a way to dig an unbounded sequence of rooms in-game, which is more difficult than just setting up a fixed number of rooms. 13:58:58 \ you built the memory cells in the polynomial time preprocessing, and they're represented in-game as something like immutable in-game rooms. For TC you have to find a way to dig an unbounded sequence of rooms in-game, which is more difficult than just setting up a fixed number of rooms. 14:01:24 -!- tromp_ has joined. 14:05:49 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:07:01 b_jonas: nothing was cut off hth 14:17:38 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:24:59 -!- spiette has joined. 14:32:13 Apparently in 2005 my uni's CS department held a Vim vs Emacs paintball tournemant 14:32:19 Paintball is probably not turing complete 14:33:06 `quote ais.*vim 14:33:44 1271) editor flame wars are fun, I typically take the side of emacs and vim versus everything else normally I can get most of the emacs /and/ vim users round to my side, thus catching out all the other-editor-users who thought they were safe 14:39:14 -!- Guest95899 has joined. 14:45:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:53:04 Good plan 15:06:59 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:21:49 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 15:32:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:39:27 @tell mroman is it "other side" or "outside"? <-- that depends on whether or not you're a ghost hth 15:39:27 Consider it noted. 15:52:51 -!- Gwir has joined. 15:56:21 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 16:01:21 -!- Gwir has left ("Leaving"). 16:01:37 -!- tromp_ has joined. 16:05:58 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:07:16 -!- mroman has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 16:11:03 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:11:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:14:03 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 16:19:15 -!- Kaynato has joined. 16:49:13 -!- XorSwap has joined. 16:50:15 -!- XorSwap has quit (Client Quit). 16:58:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:58:55 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:04:45 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:08:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:16:30 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 17:22:55 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:27:19 -!- Guest95899 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:27:45 -!- Guest95899 has joined. 17:30:49 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 17:35:58 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 17:47:15 -!- Guest95899 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:01:13 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:02:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:03:15 -!- Kaynato has joined. 18:06:04 -!- Caesura has joined. 18:07:05 -!- Zoroaster has joined. 18:09:51 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:11:05 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:26:15 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:31:54 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:42:29 -!- iconmaster has joined. 18:42:33 -!- Frooxius has joined. 19:09:40 -!- Zoroaster has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 19:20:04 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:30:45 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:32:53 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 19:32:56 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 19:33:16 -!- Reece` has joined. 19:34:11 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:35:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:36:38 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 19:45:31 -!- Kaynato has joined. 19:54:11 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: brb). 19:55:11 I'm creating a web application called Wi 19:55:13 (Web Vi) 19:55:50 The goal is to use it as an interactive Vi in-browser 19:58:58 -!- lambdabot has joined. 20:01:48 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 20:11:46 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:35:08 -!- p34k has joined. 20:36:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:37:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:51:03 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 20:53:43 -!- rzfjwyxq has joined. 20:54:00 -!- rzfjwyxq has quit (Client Quit). 20:57:52 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 21:04:54 I think I've discovered a correspondence between data structures and control flow 21:06:39 Of course, like the CHI, not all things on either side have a common partner 21:06:46 So I'm looking into call/cc 21:11:21 Maybe this channel would be more appropriate for my question. 21:11:50 If all function application is left-associated, what set of primitives would you need to be able to write any function? 21:12:09 Something like unlambda without ` 21:12:15 shachaf: S, K, ` 21:12:16 Oh 21:12:21 So "f $ g $ h" = "(f $ g) $ h"? 21:12:45 Well, f g h 21:12:51 S, K, C maybe? 21:13:10 S and K are the traditional ones, Cxyz = xzy 21:13:27 I don't think that's sufficient. 21:13:28 Or maybe C^-, which is C^-xy=yx 21:13:34 shachaf: Let me fire up COq 21:18:20 shachaf: stack operation primitives, I think 21:18:34 shachaf: no wait, you said left-associated, not right-associated 21:18:46 um 21:19:05 in that case you need to start form a primitive that's not well-typed in HM, right? 21:19:26 wait, which way is left-associated and which way is right-associated? 21:19:44 and from which side are you applying functions? 21:20:11 shachaf: If I know how Coq works, then- wait, no 21:20:39 b_jonas: Same as Haskell. 21:20:51 a b c d = (((a b) c) d) 21:21:58 shachaf: I stand by my c hypothesis 21:22:40 shachaf: Wait, does left associative imply that types can only by (((Q -> P) -> S) -> T) -> U and such? 21:22:52 If so, that makes things a LOT more difficult 21:22:52 OK, then show how to translate an arbitrary lambda expression. 21:22:53 shachaf: in that case, you need a non-well-typed function 21:23:03 b_jonas: Why? 21:23:19 shachaf: you can't apply arbitrarily many arguments to a well-typed function, right? 21:23:29 Sure you can. 21:23:32 > id id id id id 5 21:23:34 5 21:23:47 hmm 21:25:49 hola 21:25:56 todos 21:26:06 le mundi 21:26:13 el even 21:27:05 fungot: can you factor eleven? 21:27:06 int-e: commissioner, the council of ministers, several former prime ministers, this institution is, after all, this was also true of the police and judiciary, long regarded as the most comprehensive legal statement of children' s safety may be a case of double hulls. with regard to amendments nos 67 and 68 would complicate the system rather than trying to do this both in conjunction with countries that have applied to join the 21:27:56 how is stacl based not left assoziative? 21:27:58 -!- bb010g has joined. 21:29:02 myname: in what context does that question make sense? 21:29:21 ^style 21:29:21 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 21:29:47 i am refering zu b_jonas idea of stack operations 21:30:33 to even 21:30:41 how did this happen 21:31:31 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:33:54 Double hulls, *that's* how we'll keep the children safe. 21:35:07 fungot: Do you have other parenting tips? 21:35:08 fizzie: from a logical point of view on the subject of this own-initiative report commits various cardinal sins. the first deadline to be set at a higher level of investment and, thus, cannot accept amendments nos 30, 38 and amendments nos 5 and 6. as for the inspections, very much for your invitation, mrs kinnock, for pointing this out because i was looking to a new trend in the member states and applicant countries, whereas p 21:37:09 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 21:38:40 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:39:32 oh you mean something like this 21:39:35 > let push x a c = c (a:x); add (a:b:x) c = c (a+b:x); end x = x; start c = c [] in start push 1 push 2 add push 3 add end 21:39:37 [6] 21:41:11 end (x:_) = x would be nicer 21:42:11 if you only want to calculate scalars, that is 21:42:46 oh, Oleg attributes this to Okasaki, interesting. http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/polyvariadic.html 21:43:10 myname: But you don't know at compile-time what will be in the stack. 21:43:18 Of course you could type-check it if you wanted to. 21:43:23 > let { push x a c = c (a,x); add (a,(b,x)) c = c (a+b,x); end (x,()) = x; start c = c () } in start push 1 push 2 add push 3 add end 21:43:24 6 21:43:33 > let { push x a c = c (a,x); add (a,(b,x)) c = c (a+b,x); end (x,()) = x; start c = c () } in start push 1 push 2 add push 3 add add end 21:43:34 Couldn't match type ‘(t, ())’ with ‘()’ 21:43:34 Expected type: (t, ()) -> ((t, ()) -> t) -> t 21:43:35 Actual type: (t, (t, ())) -> ((t, ()) -> t) -> t 21:45:06 such a readable type error :) 21:45:14 hello 21:45:23 @let data HList :: [*] -> * where { HNil :: HList '[]; (:!) :: x -> HList xs -> HList (x ': xs) } 21:45:24 Defined. 21:45:30 talk to me 21:45:43 fungot: do we want to talk to quintopia? 21:45:44 int-e: commissioner diamantopoulou, mr katiforis presents a report on one very important element of which is the year of marine safety, which will require the mobilisation of european engineers and support teams could, in fact, the dogma of the uncontrolled interpretative powers granted to the commission proposal for extending magp iv and it is there that we have balanced all the points we fought to improve. 21:45:56 politicians just can't say no. 21:46:04 * int-e runs 21:46:28 i'm just a gal who caint say no 21:48:00 shachaf: why do i need to know? 21:48:26 You don't need anything. 21:48:57 just throw the error, it's fine 21:49:05 end = head 21:49:36 gotta type-check everything 21:49:47 Also I thought I'd use HList and maybe get a better error message. 21:50:08 But the joke's on me because it's not even working and I don't know why. 21:50:57 does it work in ghci? 21:50:59 Just another day in HListland. 21:51:03 I don't know, I don't have ghci. 21:51:10 Well, the other day I wrote HListy code in C++. That was worse. 21:51:16 how can you not have ghci! 21:51:20 blasphermy 21:51:22 blasphemy 21:51:31 > let { push x a c = c (a :! x); add (a :! (b :! x)) c = c ((a+b) :! x); end (x :! HNil) = x; start c = c HNil } in start push 1 push 2 add push 3 add end 21:51:33 Couldn't match expected type ‘HList (x : xs1) -> t2’ 21:51:33 with actual type ‘t1’ 21:51:33 because type variable ‘xs1’ would escape its scope 21:53:14 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:53:30 :t let { push x a c = c (a :! x); add (a :! (b :! x)) c = c ((a+b) :! x); end (x :! HNil) = x; start c = c HNil } in start push 21:53:31 Couldn't match expected type ‘HList (x1 : xs1) -> t2’ 21:53:31 with actual type ‘t1’ 21:53:31 because type variable ‘xs1’ would escape its scope 21:53:51 I guess not being able to type this prefix could be a problem 21:54:28 > let { push x a c = c (a :! x); add (a :! (b :! x)) c = c ((a+b) :! x); end (x :! HNil) = x; start c = c HNil } in () -- The issue is in the definitions. 21:54:30 Couldn't match expected type ‘HList (x : xs1) -> t1’ 21:54:32 with actual type ‘t’ 21:54:34 because type variable ‘xs1’ would escape its scope 21:55:22 ah. 21:58:10 -!- Kaynato has joined. 21:58:10 > let { push x a c = c (a :! x); add :: HList (Int ': Int ': xs) -> (HList (Int ': xs) -> r) -> r; add (a :! (b :! x)) c = c ((a+b::Int) :! x); end :: HList '[x] -> x; end (x :! HNil) = x; start c = c HNil } in start push 1 push 2 add push 3 add end 21:58:12 6 21:58:14 scow 21:58:18 It was just an inference issue? 21:58:52 > let { push x a c = c (a :! x); add :: Num x => HList (x ': x ': xs) -> (HList (x ': xs) -> r) -> r; add (a :! (b :! x)) c = c ((a+b) :! x); end :: HList '[x] -> x; end (x :! HNil) = x; start c = c HNil } in start push 1 push 2 add push 3 add end 21:58:54 6 21:59:08 will it work in ghc 8? 21:59:11 Why does that have an inference issue? 22:01:11 :t let { end (x :! HNil) = x } in end 22:01:13 Couldn't match expected type ‘t2’ with actual type ‘x’ 22:01:13 ‘t2’ is untouchable 22:01:13 inside the constraints (xs ~ '[]) 22:05:31 :t let end xs = case xs of { x :! HNil -> () } in 42 22:05:33 Not in scope: data constructor ‘:!’ 22:05:33 Perhaps you meant one of these: 22:05:33 ‘:+’ (imported from Data.Complex), 22:05:58 :t let end xs = case xs of { x :! HNil -> () } in 42 22:05:59 Couldn't match expected type ‘t’ with actual type ‘()’ 22:05:59 ‘t’ is untouchable 22:05:59 inside the constraints (xs ~ '[]) 22:06:53 so it has learned nothing about the return type... and then there comes the GADT pattern match that freezes the type variables outside? dunnno. the ways of the type checker are mysterious and convoluted. 22:10:36 what does :! do? 22:10:43 and what does ': do? 22:10:56 :! doesn't look like an operator, ': might be one though 22:11:00 :t (':) 22:11:02 parse error on input ‘:’ 22:11:04 The :! is part of the HList definition. ': is a type-level cons operator. 22:11:21 well, type-literal level 22:11:33 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 22:12:35 is ' reserved for type-level operators? 22:12:37 :t '[()] 22:12:38 parse error on input ‘(’ 22:12:46 :t '['()] 22:12:47 parse error on input ‘]’ 22:13:00 (okay, that was stupid) 22:13:11 it got all the way up to the ] before getting confused 22:13:24 I take it '[' was parsed as a character 22:13:26 then () as unit 22:13:26 > '['() -- is just a type error 22:13:27 Couldn't match expected type ‘() -> t’ with actual type ‘Char’ 22:13:27 The function ‘'['’ is applied to one argument, 22:13:27 but its type ‘Char’ has none 22:13:37 ais523: I think you need to write it as '[]() 22:13:39 and only failed to parse after that 22:13:51 b_jonas: I think ais523 didn't make the mistake 22:13:58 oh 22:13:59 um 22:13:59 b_jonas: but anyway :t parses expressions 22:14:13 :k () 22:14:14 * 22:14:19 :k ': 22:14:20 parse error on input ‘:’ 22:14:24 :k (':) 22:14:25 parse error on input ‘:’ 22:14:29 :k '[] 22:14:30 [k] 22:14:33 aha 22:14:39 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:14:47 :k '[()] 22:14:48 [*] 22:14:55 what does k mean in a kind? 22:15:08 it's a polymorphic kind 22:15:12 so a kind variable 22:15:26 ah right 22:15:31 I didn't realise we had kind-level polymorphism 22:15:50 ghc has grown some fancy type system extensions in the last three (I think) years 22:16:00 * ais523 wonders if it's possible to identify types with kinds without becoming dependently typed 22:20:59 ais523: That's sort of what GHC does. 22:21:08 Depending on what you mean by "identify". 22:21:14 I'm not sure what I mean 22:22:15 When you define a type Maybe a with values Nothing and Just a, GHC also defines a kind Maybe a with types Nothing and Just a 22:22:30 With DataKinds. 22:22:35 Are those identified? 22:22:44 is it possible to construct a value of type Nothing? 22:22:59 No. By "type" I just mean that it exists on the type level. 22:23:16 ais523: well, even in a dependently-typed language you can't create a object of type Nothing 22:23:24 at least, not any one I've seen 22:23:30 hmm, it doesn't seem that the types have much in common with the kinds apart from having the same name 22:23:58 but anyway the type-level 'Nothing and the data-level Nothing are not the same. 22:24:25 What if value-level functions were also automatically lifted to type-level functions? 22:25:22 . o O ( my_head _ = unsafePerformIO ... ) 22:25:41 ski: see also the conversation in this channel a few screens ago 22:25:50 shachaf: is that even possible in general? 22:25:52 the lifting, I mean 22:25:56 but I suspect that then you get all the bad aspects of dependent type (undecidable type checking) without any benefits. 22:26:10 is there a type-level fix? that feels like the largest problem 22:26:22 good point 22:26:47 ais523: Well, you have isorecursive types. Not equirecursive types like I think you can get in ocaml. 22:27:04 but you can already do funny things (like constructing a type satisfying x ~ [x]) with type families. 22:27:53 shachaf: I think haskell has those too, but only if you enable an extension flag, and you normally don't want that, because it makes typechecker errors REALLY confusing because type errors that lead to recursive types get caught too late 22:27:54 sorry... didn't read what shachaf wrote before pressing return 22:28:16 b_jonas: I've never seen Haskell have those. 22:28:29 It would be interesting to try. 22:32:45 b_jonas : it's the OCaml implementation which has them (`-rectypes'). they already need them for (cyclic) object types. the option just removes the restriction that the cycle has to go through an object type 22:33:28 I remember https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2006-December/020072.html 22:36:59 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:38:43 https://github.com/Rochester-NRT/AlphaG 22:38:45 err 22:38:48 https://github.com/Rochester-NRT/AlphaGo 22:42:38 (and you need cyclic object types for binary methods and "clone" methods. see ,. also ) 23:16:39 -!- gremlins has joined. 23:18:27 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:19:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:28:36 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 23:35:37 -!- boily has joined. 23:38:32 If all function application is left-associated, what set of primitives would you need to be able to write any function? <-- hm sounds familiar. 23:39:01 oerjan: I think I've asked this before. 23:39:09 And someone even sent me a paper or something about it. 23:39:19 It was called something like "bracketing combinators" but I can't find it now. 23:39:20 oerjan: shachaf: isn't that just Underload? 23:39:25 Is it? 23:39:28 i know i showed once that you can refactor everything as a big blob of id and (.) followed by your original terms, but i'm not sure if the big blob itself can then be split up. 23:39:36 or, well, concatenative languages generally 23:39:56 ais523: that would be right-associated. 23:40:12 well 23:40:14 without a lot of tweaking, anyway. 23:40:16 all functions are associative in Underload 23:40:23 so the association doesn't really matter 23:40:34 oerjan: You mean the big blob is a tree? 23:40:36 ais523: um we're assuming the application is the usual lambda one. 23:40:50 ah right, not compose 23:41:02 I'm talking about "unlambda without `" 23:41:03 I guess it is right-associative then? 23:41:22 shachaf: where you basically have enough `s at the start of the program to balance it? 23:41:25 In Haskell "f x y" is "(f x) y" 23:41:27 ais523: Yes. 23:41:34 shachaf: a (b (c d) e) = (.) a (b (c d)) e = (.) ((.) a) b (c d) e etc. 23:42:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 23:42:37 = (.) ((.) ((.) a) b)) c d e 23:42:47 er 23:42:55 *b) 23:43:01 OK, but your blob isn't standalone there. 23:43:16 you eventually get all the rest out 23:43:42 Do you? When I've done it in the past I ran into cases where it didn't happen with the natural (.)ification. 23:43:52 * = (.) ((.) ((.) a) b) c d e 23:44:04 You run into (.)^6 = (.)^10 and the expression keeps growing. 23:44:13 = (.) (.) ((.) ((.) a) b c d e 23:44:47 dammit 23:45:10 * = (.) (.) ((.) ((.) a)) b c d e 23:45:24 it's easier if you give (.) a non-infix name hth 23:45:27 for example fmap 23:45:41 = (.) ((.) (.)) (.) ((.) a) b c d e 23:45:47 copumpkin: Maybe you were the one who sent me that paper? 23:46:05 which paper? 23:46:12 = fmap (fmap fmap) fmap (fmap a) b c d e 23:46:13 oerjan: "bracketing combinators" or something 23:46:30 s/oerjan/copumpkin/ 23:46:32 = fmap (fmap (fmap fmap) fmap) fmap a b c d e 23:46:37 there, one initial blob 23:46:50 OK, I believe that it works in this case. 23:47:02 i'm pretty sure it works in general. 23:47:02 I don't remember whether the issue I ran into was trying to deblob the fmaps themselves. 23:47:10 That might've been it. 23:47:15 right, i don't know if that works. 23:47:44 @massages-loud 23:47:44 mroman said 14h 59m 22s ago: HELLO FROM THE OTHER SIDE.... 23:47:45 it doesn't hth 23:48:06 @tell mroman *gasp*! you're not dead! well... if you are, you communicate! 23:48:06 Consider it noted. 23:48:23 = fmap fmap (fmap (fmap fmap)) fmap fmap a b c d e 23:48:44 perhaps it starts getting harder now 23:48:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:50:08 you are crazy 23:51:32 You run into (.)^6 = (.)^10 and the expression keeps growing. <-- in that case surely you can just shortcut back >:) 23:51:33 myname: just search the #haskell logs for "fmap fmap fmap fmap". i've done plenty of this. 23:51:39 a little too much in fact 23:52:07 oerjan: Anyway, you're obviously not going to be able to encode an arbitrary binary tree structure in unary. 23:52:15 Not with fmap, anyway. 23:52:26 shachaf: well ok right, you need more than just fmap. 23:52:45 so the question is, how little do you need to be able to decode a fmap blob 23:53:44 boily: from other things mroman said, i think he may be confused about the connotation of "THE OTHER SIDE" 23:53:51 what about $ 23:54:01 oerjan did say "fmap and id" 23:54:02 (dammit, forgot to portmantell again) 23:54:46 you are crazy <-- wait, anyone in particular, or all of us twh 23:55:24 shachaf: i think you only need id for the trivial case. 23:55:43 hellørjan. there are multiple other sides? as far as I know, there's the Other Side, Our Side, and that's about it. 23:55:45 consider it the empty blob, or something. 23:57:05 boily: John 14:2 hth 23:58:18 :t fmap 23:58:19 Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 23:58:23 :t fmap fmap 23:58:24 (Functor f, Functor f1) => f (a -> b) -> f (f1 a -> f1 b) 23:58:30 :t fmap.($) 23:58:31 Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 23:58:35 oops 23:58:38 :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap 23:58:39 (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> a1 -> b) -> f a -> f (f1 a1 -> f1 b) 23:58:50 @let dot = (.) 23:58:51 Defined. 23:59:00 :t dot dot dot dot dot dot 23:59:01 (b -> b1 -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> (a1 -> b1) -> a1 -> c 23:59:23 I actually think the fmap version might be clearer, it's surprising that it only uses two functors 23:59:45 :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap 23:59:45 (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a1 -> a -> b) -> f a1 -> f (f1 a -> f1 b) 2016-04-08: 00:00:11 ais523: note periodicity 00:00:29 oerjan: indeed 00:00:37 although that type's not /quite/ the same, a and a1 swapped names :-P 00:01:24 ais523: they're alpha equivalent. 00:01:34 yes 00:04:00 oerjan: I got bibled. 00:04:28 fmap fmap (fmap (fmap fmap)) = fmap (fmap fmap) fmap (fmap fmap) = fmap (fmap (fmap fmap) fmap) fmap fmap 00:04:41 boily: yw 00:06:06 now I'm wondering if (.) and ((.) (.)) are enough 00:06:10 me too 00:06:13 probably not, but at least it doesn't obviously fall into cycle issues 00:07:39 higgledy piggledy / a i s 5 2 3, / composed composition, fell / into a trap; // lacking regard for the / periodicity / he got stuck in a cycle, for- / ever to map 00:09:24 oops, missed a syllable 00:09:34 `? ais523 00:10:27 Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 00:11:56 a (b (c (d e))) = fmap a b (c (d e)) = fmap (fmap a b) c (d e) = fmap (fmap (fmap a b)) c d e 00:12:37 it looks like possibly the blob is never larger than the original? 00:13:03 That blob isn't done. 00:13:30 no. i'm talking about the general process: you never add more fmaps than you get variables extracted 00:13:46 Yay, figured out a way to do the checkerboard in 0x16 cycles... and actually 0x15 might just be possible. 00:13:49 Ah. Hm. Maybe. 00:13:54 if this is true, then (.) and (.) (.) must be enough. 00:14:05 I always tried to deblob the fmaps too 00:14:16 because if you can use (.) (.) you can force it to shrink 00:14:41 because a nontrivial fmap blob must contain fmap fmap somewhere. 00:17:18 i'm a little worried if it's true though, what if c above is composite? 00:18:30 if c, d and e are plain variables, then a (b (c (d e))) = fmap (fmap (fmap a b)) c d e does not grow the initial "blob" 00:19:59 i can assume e is, because it's the "innermost" 00:20:24 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 00:20:29 I just had an awful, awful idea 00:20:37 The Minimalist's Web 00:21:23 AKA Web ε.0 00:21:43 Click here 00:21:52 oerjan: It's even worse than that 00:22:13 oerjan: I'm creating a page on the markup now 00:22:32 hppavilion[2]: my point is there's only one page, and it links only to itself hth 00:22:46 oerjan: Oh, that's called AJAX 00:22:59 OKAY 00:24:09 oerjan: fmap (fmap a b) c (d e) = fmap (fmap (fmap a b)) c d e ? 00:24:10 . o O ( at least it keeps him off the streets ) 00:24:48 shachaf: oops 00:25:58 oerjan: surely it could have a more informative link text than "click here" 00:25:58 -!- gremlins has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 00:26:26 ais523: only if it's more minimal hth 00:26:41 what about "top"? 00:26:55 oerjan: The language you use instead of JavaScript is Brainfuck (well, a derivative, but it has to be for it to work) 00:28:27 oerjan: It's dot dot (dot (dot a b)) c d e 00:30:15 > fmap fmap (fmap (fmap f g)) h f x :: Expr 00:30:17 No instance for (Show a2) arising from a use of ‘f’ 00:30:17 The type variable ‘a2’ is ambiguous 00:30:17 Note: there are several potential instances: 00:30:21 shocking 00:30:28 :t (\a b c d e -> dot dot (dot (dot a b)) c d e) :: (d -> e) -> (c -> d) -> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> e 00:30:29 (d -> e) -> (c -> d) -> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> e 00:30:31 hth 00:31:42 fmap (fmap a b) c (d e) = fmap (fmap (fmap a b) c) d e = fmap fmap (fmap (fmap a b)) c d e 00:32:28 that's what i wrote above hth 00:32:36 switching notation in the middle of the process again is too much for my brain. 00:33:07 anyway, that does indeed not look smaller. 00:33:21 unless we use that fmap fmap is allowed. 00:33:46 = dot (dot dot) (dot dot (dot a)) b c d e 00:34:20 ditto. 00:35:06 = dot (dot (dot dot)) (dot (dot dot) dot) a b c d e 00:35:17 Of course you can dot that some more. 00:35:54 ok that's not smaller. 00:36:02 even with (dot dot) 00:36:10 what if the other function you need is called dash 00:36:16 you can encode binary trees in morse code 00:36:21 fancy 00:36:30 :t (\a b c d e -> dot (dot dot dot dot) (dot dot dot dot dot) a b c d e) :: (d -> e) -> (c -> d) -> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> e 00:36:31 (d -> e) -> (c -> d) -> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> e 00:36:49 dot (dot^4) (dot^5) 00:37:11 But this particular tree is a special one, of course. 00:38:37 yay trees 00:38:55 dot (dot dot) (dot dot (dot a)) b c d e = dot (dot (dot dot)) (dot dot) (dot a) b c d e 00:39:11 ... 00:39:42 = dot (dot (dot (dot dot)) (dot dot)) dot a b c d e 00:39:50 oerjan: whoa, yours is different 00:39:53 yep 00:40:00 i thought yours seemed fishy 00:40:13 Well, it's correct. 00:41:19 mine somehow manages not to grow there 00:41:59 :t (`asTypeOf` (\a b c d e -> a (b (c (d e))))) $ \a b c d e -> dot (dot (dot (dot dot)) (dot dot)) dot a b c d e 00:42:00 (b2 -> c) -> (b1 -> b2) -> (b -> b1) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c 00:43:25 [wiki] [[Minimalist's Markup]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46760 * Hppavilion1 * (+3290) Created Page 00:44:10 oerjan: Marvel at my evilocity 00:45:33 oerjan: It can ONLY be edited in a monospace fontface :) 00:45:45 Hmm. 00:45:49 OKAY 00:46:12 hppavilion[2]: is that more or less evil than using terminal control codes as an HTML equivalent? 00:46:22 a (b c) = dot a b c is the fundamental transformation here. is there some kind of measure on it which doesn't grow? 00:46:40 (I learned recently that there was a serious attempt to do that, but it ran so far behind schedule that it was only finished in 1999, by which point other standards had already won) 00:46:41 @unpl (.) ((.) ((.) ((.) (.))) ((.) (.))) 00:46:41 (\ b c i l n o -> b c i (l (n o))) 00:46:47 ais523: I would guess less, because mine will allow more complex things 00:46:48 @unpl to the rescue 00:47:01 @unpl (.) ((.) ((.) ((.) (.))) ((.) (.))) (.) 00:47:01 (\ c i l n o -> c (i (l (n o)))) 00:47:02 hppavilion[2]: no, this allowed more complex things 00:47:07 ais523: ? 00:47:08 it had the same featureset as, say, OpenDocument 00:47:12 ais523: Oh. 00:47:13 despite being based on terminal control codes 00:47:18 ais523: What is it? 00:47:20 ais523: *where 00:47:21 it even had support for things like vector graphics 00:47:30 hppavilion[2]: look up "Open Document Architecture" (e.g. on Wikipedia) 00:47:55 ais523: so it was the hurd of hypertext? 00:48:25 oerjan: more like the hurd of Word, I guess 00:48:36 it was originally intended to migrate things out of Word and WordPerfect 00:48:37 ais523: Interesting... 00:48:40 then it sort-of blew up 00:48:54 Crap, just realized that it doesn't support hyperlinks, and that there's no way to do that 00:49:01 also it suffers from the problem that some of the most basic terminal control codes (like cursor movement) don't really translate well to a word-processing conteext 00:49:03 I guess I'll have to introduce them as part of the scripting 00:49:39 ais523: One of the rules of it is that it's pretty much just a finite (albeit > 16m) set of tags 00:50:12 @@ @run text . (let { f ('d':'o':'t':xs) = "(.)"++f xs; f (x:xs) = x:f xs; f "" = "" } in f) $ @show dot (dot (dot (dot dot)) (dot dot)) dot 00:50:13 (.) ((.) ((.) ((.) (.))) ((.) (.))) (.) 00:50:18 @@ @unpl @run text . (let { f ('d':'o':'t':xs) = "(.)"++f xs; f (x:xs) = x:f xs; f "" = "" } in f) $ @show dot (dot (dot (dot dot)) (dot dot)) dot 00:50:20 (\ c i l n o -> c (i (l (n o)))) 00:50:29 ais523: There is an effectively infinite number of hyperlinks, so I don't know how to introduce those properly 00:50:40 ais523: Have I mentioned that it's a scripted markup language 00:50:40 ? 00:51:59 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot 00:52:00 (\ c e f i -> c (e f i)) 00:52:52 AAAAAAAA 00:53:07 logs -> 00:53:24 @help dedot 00:53:24 help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands 00:53:35 @help where 00:53:35 where . Return element associated with key 00:53:40 ah right 00:53:42 @where dedot 00:53:42 @unpl @run text . (let { f ('d':'o':'t':xs) = "(.)"++f xs; f (x:xs) = x:f xs; f "" = "" } in f) $ @show 00:54:54 oerjan: Maybe BCKW has some insight about this. 00:55:11 C, K, W are the three things people usually take away in substructural logics. 00:55:30 But what would it mean to take away B? 00:55:50 -!- Reece` has joined. 00:55:53 shachaf: Oh, are you still working on lefty CL? 00:59:47 @unpl @run text . (let { f ('d':'o':'t':xs) = "(.)"++f xs; f (x:xs) = x:f xs; f "" = "" } in f) $ @show 00:59:47 .hs: 1: 1:Parse error: @ 00:59:56 I was really hoping that would do something 01:01:51 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:06:19 prooftechnique: it's just a piece of shachaf's monstrosity, you need to surround it with @@s hth 01:06:42 are @@ called atats? 01:07:18 -!- augur has joined. 01:07:22 PLAUSIBLE 01:12:12 OKAY 01:13:30 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 01:15:05 david morgan-mar will be doing a reddit r/comics AMA tomorrow hth 01:17:54 should we ask some #esoteric questions? 01:18:21 hm i dunno. he's on record as not doing programming any longer. 01:18:32 (when he can help it, anyway.) 01:20:36 i demand to see the record 01:26:26 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/3431.html 01:26:55 second last paragraph. 01:27:27 oerjan: dmm's statements on programming reminds me of Keymaker 01:27:46 who apparently dislikes non-eso programming 01:29:36 mhm 01:32:01 -!- p34k has quit. 01:41:01 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WHITE CHICKEN). 01:43:44 -!- Kaynato has joined. 01:46:16 `unidecode ƿ 01:46:24 ​[U+01BF LATIN LETTER WYNN] 01:47:21 you know what made ds9 the best star trek series 01:47:39 its excellent villains, such as χ ƿ 01:48:10 <\oren\> chiwynn 01:49:52 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:51:20 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 01:52:37 -!- rdococ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:52:58 -!- rdococ has joined. 01:53:18 -!- rdococ has quit (Changing host). 01:53:18 -!- rdococ has joined. 02:02:33 okay, that was more tedious than expected... but I have a 0x15 cycles checkerboard now. 02:03:58 -!- rdococ has quit. 02:09:00 YES! 02:09:15 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:24:25 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:25:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:29:04 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:29:32 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 02:31:41 -!- Reece` has joined. 02:32:00 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:33:22 -!- Reece` has joined. 02:34:22 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit). 02:35:10 -!- Reece` has joined. 02:37:08 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 02:53:07 Wi is working 02:53:12 Partially 02:53:19 You can only s/// at the moment, but it works 02:53:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:55:46 I seem to have hit a wall though 02:58:36 "TedxKids" is a very badly-named thing 03:03:33 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 03:03:41 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:08:50 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:09:13 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:10:02 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 03:15:36 -!- llue has joined. 03:16:30 -!- lleu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:18:45 -!- Kaynato has joined. 03:19:13 -!- rdococ has joined. 03:32:30 -!- tromp_ has joined. 03:36:52 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:39:36 So I've now looked at existing programs (in particular the "small" 0x16 cycle solution)... it should be possible to get down to 0x14, perhaps even 0x13 cycles. 03:40:24 -!- ais523 has quit. 04:01:44 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:04:25 hello 04:05:12 Hello 04:09:01 int-e: How many instructions do you think is the minimum? 04:09:17 I instruct you to say yay 04:10:53 now 04:20:42 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:22:55 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:27:00 shachaf: impomatic said there's a 4 instruction solution; my best was 6 (or 5 if one relies on wrapping code execution and doesn't sound the 0s) 04:27:20 So... I have 0x13 cycles now. :-) 04:28:26 using 41 threads... 04:28:45 0x01 04:31:18 I saw the 4-instruction solution. 04:31:41 I kind of doubt you can do better than that. 04:34:37 I don't think that I can below those 0x13 cycles. 04:38:56 copumpkin: whoa whoa whoa 04:39:07 copumpkin: The answer is obviously "encrypt-then-MAC" 04:46:43 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 04:49:29 impomatic: if you want to play with it, the code is here: http://sprunge.us/PKXS 04:51:01 (I rediscovered the gang scheduling idea... so to speak... myself... that's how I got to 0x16 and then 0x15 cycles. But the reduction in code size was essential to get to 0x13.) 04:54:43 "sound" instead of "count"... I think this is my cue to go to bed. 05:01:01 What about the blue box one... have people gotten below 8 lines (with wrapping code)? 05:01:49 oerjan: What transformation takes \a b c d e -> a (b c) (d e) to dot^6? 05:05:07 oerjan: Or dot dot (dot dot), for that matter. 05:15:01 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 05:18:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:27:51 -!- variable has joined. 05:34:05 -!- tromp_ has joined. 05:38:48 -!- variable has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero). 05:38:49 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:38:49 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:45:16 -!- variable has joined. 05:49:19 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 05:53:46 -!- variable has changed nick to trout. 06:04:44 -!- tromp_ has joined. 06:09:27 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:33:45 -!- trout has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero). 06:42:42 Another kind of card for Magic: the Gathering might be: Whenever a nonactive player would draw a card, the active player draws a card instead. 07:06:37 You mean "if"? 07:08:58 * rdococ slaps someone with a trout 07:10:13 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:18:21 what about lua without metatables 07:18:55 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:29:00 contrapumpkin: ☝ 07:32:03 -!- Froox has joined. 07:35:51 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:02:47 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 08:14:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:29:39 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 09:19:02 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:22:31 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 09:38:53 int-e: nice work, you should submit it to the leaderboard on reddit 09:39:35 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:57:22 My BOX-256 solutions are here if anyone can improve them? https://github.com/impomatic/BOX256 10:08:06 -!- dancek has joined. 10:12:29 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:43:30 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:05:06 First time I've seen a coffin made to look like a wicker basket. 11:05:41 (There was one in the back of a hearse.) 11:07:23 Seems like it's a thing http://www.thegreenfuneralcompany.co.uk/graphics/cms/wicker3.jpg 11:15:12 * int-e prefers to stay away from reddit 11:26:22 int-e: do you mind if I post your solution on the leaderboard then? I can credit it to anonymous if you like? 11:38:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:40:23 -!- Reece` has joined. 11:40:40 -!- boily has joined. 11:57:09 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 11:57:58 I have coffee. gorgeous, beautiful coffee. aaaaaaaah :) 11:58:12 -!- Reece` has joined. 12:10:51 impomatic: no I don't mind at all... attributing it to int-e may help some people recognize the author 12:11:25 -!- rdococ has joined. 12:14:24 cool 6 line solution for the big square (by staying away from reddit I mean that I don't want to post there... I'd just end up polling for replies every 5 minutes) 12:22:25 -!- tromp_ has joined. 12:23:46 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CAROTID CHICKEN). 12:26:51 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:37:02 shachaf: thanks! 12:46:19 i'm so happy there's another giant war in eve online 13:14:11 ah grammar... are there giants in eve online? 13:38:52 -!- tromp_ has joined. 13:43:19 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:50:30 -!- spiette has joined. 13:57:57 -!- spiette_ has joined. 13:59:52 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:07:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:18:58 -!- spiette_ has quit (Quit: :qa!). 14:31:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:54:21 a (b c d) = fmap a (b c) d = fmap (fmap a) b c d = fmap fmap fmap a b c d 14:56:07 a1 ... an b (c1 ... cn d) = fmap (a1 ... an b) (c1 ... cn) d 14:58:07 that last one looks promising for recursing 15:01:30 a (b1 ... bn c) = fmap a (b1 ... bn) c = fmap (fmap a) (b1 ... bn-1) bn c 15:06:00 a (b c d e) = fmap (fmap (fmap a)) b c d e this is related to fmap being sort of "lensy" 15:07:47 ah of course what we need is fmap . fmap . fmap 15:07:53 etc. 15:09:14 it might help that . is associative (and also is fmap) 15:15:23 hm... 15:15:37 fmap fmap fmap is one of my favorites 15:15:46 isn't it 15:17:28 a . (fmap . fmap) = fmap a (fmap fmap fmap) = fmap (fmap a) (fmap fmap) fmap 15:17:38 I guess the equivalent to fmap . fmap . fmap is fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap, which is pleasing 15:19:22 :t (fmap . fmap . fmap) `asTypeOf` fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap 15:19:23 (Functor f, Functor f1, Functor f2) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 (f2 a)) -> f (f1 (f2 b)) 15:20:07 but it has to break down somewhere, because fmap^6 = fmap^10 15:22:14 = fmap (fmap (fmap a)) fmap fmap fmap 15:22:39 hm... 15:23:17 Somehow, I've never seen asTypeOf 15:25:57 = (fmap . fmap . fmap) a fmap fmap fmap 15:27:24 this doesn't help enough if a is composite. 15:36:38 a (b1 ... bn) = fmap^{\circ n-1} a b1 ... bn 15:45:13 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:45:38 -!- spiette has joined. 15:47:33 @tell fizzie First time I've seen a coffin made to look like a wicker basket. <-- all i know is that when i googled "wicker basket" right now, google's second suggestion appended "coffin". 15:47:33 Consider it noted. 15:48:31 * oerjan got a bit confused about wicker <-> wicket, so before googling thought this was some cricket thing. 15:50:06 after darths & droids made me google ewoks yesterday, "wicket" doesn't give the hits i expected, either. 15:56:04 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 15:56:50 * oerjan fails to spot any pictures of ewoks playing cricket. 15:59:37 impomatic: ah, nice 0x12 cycles solution 16:01:27 * oerjan finds today's xkcd hilarious 16:02:06 why do i have this awful feeling that box256's thread mechanics are now locked in for good 16:02:51 int-e: thanks :-) 0x11 would be possible if I could find space for one more instruction! 16:03:13 Phantom_Hoover: it's because you're psychic hth 16:03:33 oerjan: I googled for "wicker basket coffin" to find the image. 16:03:51 impomatic: you can do it with misaligned instructions... you don't need the last bytes of the PIX ones. 16:04:08 what the hell is this garden thing 16:04:08 That said, my suggestions are "wicker baskets", "wicker baskets uk", "wicker basket with lid" and "wicker baskets ikea". 16:04:48 Phantom_Hoover: xkcd's april 1 comic that somehow got delayed 16:05:02 impomatic: oh wait, I'm doing the math wrong... 16:05:09 ah, it' some kind of waiting game 16:05:35 Phantom_Hoover: next year he'll do paint drying 16:05:46 it seems quite pointless after time 16:05:48 impomatic: so yeah I think I'm short by one byte. 16:05:50 Phantom_Hoover: i gave up because it kept resetting in my browser 16:05:55 i think time was probably the last genuinely great thing he did 16:06:35 before he managed to fuck up even the pictoblog stuff and wrote that godawful thing explainer book 16:06:36 Phantom_Hoover: what about the comet probe 16:06:41 comet probe? 16:07:07 he had a real-time comic following the landing 16:07:16 well that's kind of cool 16:07:41 anyway, i still think today's is hilarious, so there. 16:09:42 impomatic: hah! you can squeeze in a PIX nn 03 instruction at address 0x16 16:09:42 now gg 16:10:32 int-e: fantastic, I'll do that now, thanks :-) 16:11:25 (fortunately the number of threads will remain even) 16:14:01 * int-e is happy to leave the tedious work to impomatic ;) 16:14:07 -!- llue has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 16:14:26 -!- lleu has joined. 16:14:26 -!- lleu has quit (Changing host). 16:14:26 -!- lleu has joined. 16:15:00 impomatic: and you can reduce the amount of misaligned code by putting the jump table right in front of the thread instruction pointers. 16:15:29 int-e: done that already. I'd allowed for that 16:15:39 :) 16:21:45 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 16:24:36 int-e: done, but didn't need the PIX at 0x16 after all. 16:25:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:34:13 hmm, right. 16:50:05 okay, we can do better still :) 16:58:21 -!- acertain has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:08:45 -!- Kaynato has joined. 17:10:30 -!- tromp_ has joined. 17:10:41 oerjan: This is my garden: http://xkcd.com/1663/#abf5687c-fbaf-11e5-8001-42010a8e0011 17:10:53 Things are strange 17:14:37 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:15:53 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 17:26:10 contrapumpkin: ? 17:26:46 shachaf: you told me encrypt-then-MAC 17:28:04 shachaf: if you can express dot . ... . dot than you can express a (b1 ... bn), which allows you to build anything by recursion. 17:29:09 unfortunately sizes blow up when trying to use those mutually. 17:29:20 *then 17:30:10 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:30:20 um, throw a1 ... an (b1 ... bn) in there too 17:31:14 a1 ... an b (c1 ... cn d) = fmap (a1 ... an b) (c1 ... cn) d was the main starting point 17:35:51 fmap (fmap (fmap ...)) is also a base. 17:36:03 oerjan: I just woke up, it'll be a bit before I can think about dots. 17:36:07 OKAY 17:36:40 and i'll be leaving soon anyway so... 17:36:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:38:28 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 17:44:18 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 17:46:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:11:00 -!- bb010g has joined. 18:14:12 copumpkin: I'm not even sure how to justify the other two. 18:14:52 oerjan: now i can think about dots but you already scrapped 18:16:09 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:17:08 impomatic: http://sprunge.us/TaKQ is 0x10 cycles 18:17:50 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 18:19:22 int-e: whoa, I was wondering if anyone would use that in a solution 18:20:01 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:23:57 -!- Caesura has joined. 18:25:45 shachaf: hmm, how concrete is your "that"? misaligned instructions, overlapping instructions, overlapping adds, this particular overlapping add? 18:26:21 Is there a use case for misaligned instructions that aren't overlapping? 18:27:03 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:27:23 well, some instructions come with unused bytes... 18:27:51 so I would see a difference between having a PIX every three bytes and this overlapping ADD. 18:28:10 Ah, I guess. 18:29:33 oh no... I have to do this again... 18:29:34 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 18:30:15 -!- p34k has joined. 18:32:26 even 0x0F should work 18:32:52 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:33:58 let's see... I need four more threads. 18:37:04 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:40:10 -!- augur has joined. 18:40:55 4 more threads = two more instructions (8 bytes). 4 for the IPs and 4 to overwrite the IPs :-( 18:41:06 I know. 18:41:13 But it's possible... just needs work. 18:43:13 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 18:48:40 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:56:19 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:56:54 impomatic: corewars? 18:57:48 int-e: For extra credit write a program that uses the IPs as part of an instruction. 18:58:18 ais523: box256 18:58:36 -!- centrinia has joined. 18:59:28 ais523: http://programminggames.org/BOX-256.ashx 18:59:41 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 19:00:08 -!- Caesura has joined. 19:15:58 Instead of booster packs I may prefer to sell a customizable card game set as a "set box" which contains divisions by rarity and alphabetical order within each section. After confirming that you have received the correct cards, you can mix them and construct packs from them in order to make up a draft, and then afterward you can separate them by rarity to replace them into the box. 19:16:33 zzo38: But you could make much less money that way. 19:16:39 zzo38: there are some games that work like that already 19:17:11 Isn't that how the new Netrunner works? 19:17:44 It is. 19:17:57 shachaf: The goal is to make a card game, not to make money. In a large enough tournament they would purchase a lot of boxes anyways. (Booster packs could still be sold as well, in case you deliberately want random cards or do not want to construct the packs yourself) 19:18:21 Hasbro's goal is to make money. 19:18:56 * impomatic only has the old Netrunner to play. But I set up a business account with the supplier of the new Netrunner last week so I can retail it. 19:20:47 Superb. Trying to operate the British Airways reservation site -- the dynamic part of the forms are subtly broken. So I check the javascript console, and it says "SyntaxError: expected expression, got '<'" for the file jquery-1.8.3.min.js. 19:21:16 Turns out that's because, instead of returning the jQuery library, their server has returned a HTML page saying "We are experiencing high demand at the moment. If you would like to continue please click on one of the following links, otherwise please visit us again later." 19:21:26 The instructions in the box would specify how many of each rarity per pack, as well as a copy of the game rules, and the computer codes for the cards in the set. (But I would also allow proxies unlike Hasbro anyways) 19:21:26 That's certainly very user-friendly, but it's a poor substitute for jQuery. 19:21:37 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:22:02 <\oren\> what if there was a languahe where 19:22:10 <\oren\> instead of 19:22:34 <\oren\> print "hello world"; 19:22:36 When I said it is not to make money, I meant the goal is not primarily earning money; it is secondary. The primary goal is to make up the game. 19:22:46 <\oren\> you have to do 19:23:14 <\oren\> print "hello world;" 19:25:03 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:26:16 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 19:27:25 Also can include a barcode on the front of the card, so that it can be scanned into the computer. A computer database can be provided that includes the barcode numbers, so that the program can then be written to make scanning and make up the list on the computer from that. 19:28:08 (Possibly it could be a UUID or something like that in order that the same way can then even be used with custom cards) 19:28:49 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 19:30:13 meh, I miscounted the threads... 19:30:33 Including computer codes too also allows anyone to make implementations of the game on computer, as well as to clarify the rules more even if you are not using the computer. 19:30:36 A language 19:30:42 Where every instruction is an infinite string 19:30:52 Do you like this? 19:30:59 (Encoded as a lazy-evaluated sequence) 19:33:26 -!- rdococ has joined. 19:36:35 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 19:36:52 -!- idris-bot has joined. 19:46:00 -!- Reece` has joined. 19:55:32 -!- sheili has joined. 19:58:16 hola 19:58:27 hi 19:58:51 `? welcome.es 19:58:58 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:59:18 hablas español 19:59:26 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 19:59:29 ​¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.) 20:01:26 -!- Guest772714 has joined. 20:01:28 -!- Reece has joined. 20:01:54 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:01:54 It should be generally expectted to be English to be reading/writing this channel effectively. 20:02:24 (Despite many Spanish people seem to come on, but I don't know read/write Spanish so well) 20:02:51 -!- Guest772715 has joined. 20:03:03 zzo38: it's another person with ~canaima in their username 20:03:15 -!- Guest772714 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:03:49 at this point it's almost worth banning the username fragment, lots of Spanish-speakers using canaima seem to end up here when they shouldn't be for no obvious reason 20:04:37 Yes, many people are thinking it is the Spanish IRC even though it is not, it seem? If it can be ban with the note/redirect so that if they do actually want it, to knock or whatever? 20:05:18 hmm, which channel do we redirect to though? 20:05:26 like, what is it called? 20:05:30 we could give it a join message explaining 20:06:09 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:12:46 It is the "canaima notice channel" 20:13:02 -!- Caesura has joined. 20:14:12 hmm, #canaima exists, it's not empty but it's pretty small 20:15:20 It would be a different channel such as ##canaima-notice for example 20:17:01 yes, I wasn't planing to use #canaima, was just curious as to whether it existed 20:17:03 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 20:19:27 -!- sheili has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:19:36 -!- sheili has joined. 20:20:07 "Important Note: This is not the Spanish IRC. If this is the channel you want anyways, please to knock or to change your username." (And then also write the same thing in Spanish) 20:22:21 zzo38: Did you hear Conspiracy 2 was announced? 20:22:27 Release date in Aug. 20:22:59 I did not hear it, but now I do 20:24:16 Are you excited for all the new jams? 20:24:32 Also I think Return to Innistrad was released today or something. 20:24:55 What new jams? 20:25:20 I do not play the game much so I don't care 20:26:01 Would you be more excited for a new Magic: The Puzzling? 20:26:05 These new cards and new rules can be used with new puzzles though. 20:26:22 Yes I would be more excited for a new Magic: The Puzzling, and I would purchase it if they made available for purchase 20:28:22 zzo38: Have you tried http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/121390976958/the-duels-games-have-puzzle-duels-which-are ? 20:28:58 -!- sheili has left. 20:31:42 Apparently they have been getting fewer and worse every time, anyways I would want a paper version 20:32:13 Still some other people (including myself) do make up puzzles too 20:49:04 -!- Guest772715 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:55:23 -!- Reece` has joined. 20:55:27 -!- Reece has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:56:50 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:58:43 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:01:42 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:01:57 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:04:28 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:06:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:07:25 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:08:18 -!- iconmaster has joined. 21:11:04 -!- shachaf has joined. 21:11:55 -!- Caesura has joined. 21:12:36 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:16:01 -!- Reece` has joined. 21:20:21 -!- puck1pedia has joined. 21:20:33 -!- puckipedia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:21:45 -!- puck1pedia has changed nick to puckipedia. 21:23:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: buying food). 21:25:11 impomatic: http://sprunge.us/EhhO 21:26:31 int-e: I didn't think it was possible. 62 threads, nice work :-) 21:30:07 I need to check my Smiley Face solution is safe 21:34:19 fwiw, I don't think 0x40 threads will fit :) 21:35:36 besides they wouldn't help... duh. 21:52:15 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 21:52:40 -!- augur_ has joined. 21:54:31 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:04:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:23:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:39:08 "Science is always discovering odd scraps of magical wisdom and making a tremendous fuss about its cleverness." I have seen this quotation attributed to Aleister Crowley but have been unable to confirm it. Do you know who it is? 22:39:21 Another quotation is "The best armor is to keep out of range." Do you know where it comes from? 22:43:06 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!). 22:44:38 -!- spiette has joined. 22:46:00 -!- spiette has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:47:03 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:49:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:50:49 shachaf: *MWAHAHAHA* 23:03:06 -!- Caesura has joined. 23:06:03 -!- p34k has quit. 23:09:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:09:57 -!- kragniz has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:10:23 -!- kragniz has joined. 23:19:29 oerjan: what are you mwahing about now 23:19:37 dots hth 23:23:56 dot, dot dot, dot . dot, dot (dot dot), dot dot . dot, dot . dot dot, dot (dot . dot), dot . dot . dot, dot (dot (dot dot)), dot (dot dot) . dot, dot dot . dot dot, dot . dot . dot ... 23:24:21 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot (dot dot) 23:24:22 (\ b c f h i -> b c f (h i)) 23:24:37 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot (dot dot) dot 23:24:38 (\ c f h i -> c (f (h i))) 23:25:09 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot (dot dot) 23:25:11 (\ c e f k l -> c (e f) (k l)) 23:26:40 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot . dot dot 23:26:41 (\ l b c h i -> l (b c) (h i)) 23:26:50 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot (dot dot) . dot 23:26:51 (\ o c f h i -> o (c f) (h i)) 23:27:07 why are you writing some dots infix twh 23:27:12 -!- kragniz has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:27:18 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot 23:27:20 (\ i k l q r -> i (k l) (q r)) 23:27:22 they are operators 23:27:25 shachaf: because it's easier for my brain to apply them that way 23:28:55 is dot dot dpt and dot . dot equivalent? 23:29:01 -!- kragniz has joined. 23:29:05 myname: yes 23:30:28 I wonder if lambdabot's @where is meant to be abused like this 23:30:49 and if not, whether it would be worth adding an equivalent feature that's more appropriately named, and/o closing the loophole 23:32:21 @pl \a b c d e -> a (b c) (d e) 23:32:21 (((.) .) .) . (.) 23:32:53 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot (dot (dot dot)) dot 23:32:55 (\ c f i k l -> c (f i) (k l)) 23:33:40 @pl \a b c d e f g h i j k l m -> a (((b c) d (e f g)) h (i j) k) (l m) 23:33:40 (((((((((((.) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (. ((((((((.) .) .) .) .) . (.) . (.)) .) .)) . (.) . (.) . (.) . (.) . (.) . (.) . (.) . (.) . (.) 23:34:07 @pl \a b c d e -> a (b (c (d e))) 23:34:07 (. ((. (.)) . (.) . (.))) . (.) . (.) . (.) 23:34:20 hmm, @pl output on this sort of grouping operation seems to obey a relatively restricted grammar 23:34:25 @pl is cheating because it uses (. f) 23:34:26 this might be exploitable somehow? 23:34:31 Which is really (flip dot f) 23:34:55 @pl \a b c -> a c (b c) 23:34:55 ap 23:34:57 hmm, perhaps dot and (flip dot) are leftassoc-complete? 23:35:00 neat 23:35:19 :t (flip dot) 23:35:20 Not in scope: ‘dot’ 23:35:20 Perhaps you meant ‘not’ (imported from Data.Bool) 23:35:24 :t (flip (.)) 23:35:25 Well, what I wanted was a pair of functions that don't need parentheses. 23:35:25 (a -> b) -> (b -> c) -> a -> c 23:35:34 @let dot = (.) 23:35:35 Defined. 23:35:54 So you can use "f g f f f g f" or something to define your blob, and then give it all your arguments. 23:36:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:36:16 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:36:58 right 23:37:05 hmm, can we think about this problem moving backwards? 23:37:25 e.g. is it possible to define openparen and closeparen combinators that let you specify the argument pattern in advance 23:37:35 and they somehow have the right functionality? 23:38:36 you could think about giving them the number 23:38:59 like paren 3 a b c d e f g = (a b c) d e f g 23:39:23 myname: ugh, be careful 23:39:27 you're halfway to inventing Ursala 23:39:42 what's the problem? 23:40:09 Ursala pointers use a syntax in which numbers effectively parenthesize that many elements 23:40:16 e.g. 3abcdef = (abc)def 23:40:23 inside a pointer 23:40:24 so? 23:40:29 :D 23:40:39 so, have you /seen/ Ursala? 23:40:44 no 23:40:46 it's at least as eso as BANCStar 23:43:04 hmm, @pl output on this sort of grouping operation seems to obey a relatively restricted grammar <-- it all consists of applications of (.), itym 23:43:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:43:26 oerjan: and flip hth 23:44:07 oerjan: yes, it's clearly made out of applications and partial applications of (.) but it appears to be even more restricted than that 23:45:14 shachaf: no, there's no flip in there. it's (a .) not (. a) 23:45:39 oerjan: it generates both hth 23:46:16 well ok. you don't _need_ flip, though. 23:46:24 Agreed. 23:46:43 @@ @unpl @pl \a b c d e -> a (b (c (d e))) 23:46:44 (\ w al n q t -> w (al (n (q t)))) 23:46:47 btw i'm very doubtful that adding just dot dot as a single combinator helps. 23:46:49 walnqt 23:47:07 oh hm 23:47:23 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot (dot dot) 23:47:24 (\ k l q r w x -> k l (q r) (w x)) 23:47:59 that's the only possible case which remains to check 23:48:27 everything shorter is equivalent to a straight line of dots. 23:48:39 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot 23:48:40 (\ i k l q r -> i (k l) (q r)) 23:48:41 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot 23:48:43 (\ f i k l -> f (i (k l))) 23:48:44 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot 23:48:45 (\ e f i k l -> e f i (k l)) 23:48:47 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot 23:48:48 (\ c e f i -> c (e f i)) 23:49:06 hm admittedly that single one _does_ seem to give something new. 23:49:14 -!- kragniz has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:49:31 -!- kragniz has joined. 23:49:51 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot (dot dot) dot 23:49:53 (\ l q r w x -> l (q r (w x))) 23:50:55 hm also new 23:51:01 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot (dot dot) (dot dot) 23:51:02 (\ l q r w x ad -> l (q r) (w x ad)) 23:51:29 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot (dot dot) dot dot 23:51:30 (\ q r w x ac ad -> q r (w x) (ac ad)) 23:52:10 @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot (dot dot) dot (dot dot) 23:52:12 (\ q r w x ad af ag -> q r (w x) ad (af ag)) 23:52:35 impomatic: smile! http://sprunge.us/VQCK 23:52:39 Oh, at least I figured out the general-case transformation for making a parenthesized dot blob. 23:52:57 ok doubt is lessening again, it seems that continuing from dot dot dot dot dot dot (dot dot) gives new functions 23:53:49 @let doot = dot dot dot 23:53:50 Defined. 23:53:56 I guess that doesn't fix the @where. 23:54:00 impomatic: there should still be room for another cycle or two 23:54:00 shachaf: no, just dot dot 23:54:05 int-e: that's a pretty big improvement! 23:54:05 Er, right. 23:54:59 impomatic: but I'm not going to try... using 16 cycles for the actual drawing is such a sweet spot 23:55:02 shachaf: i deduced earlier that if you can convert every dot . dot ... . dot sequence to a straight lassoc line, then you get everything. 23:55:28 I must've missed that. 23:55:42 well basically, first you have 23:55:49 int-e: is your code specific to the smiley, or can you use it for any image? 23:56:43 impomatic: http://sprunge.us/TfbH is how I planned it... the Y and Z regions (y and z are erasures) are specific to the smiley 23:56:50 shachaf: you have a (b1 ... bn c) = fmap^{\circ n-1} a b1 ... bn c 23:57:15 Right. 23:57:16 er 23:57:21 *--1 23:57:44 impomatic: so it's quite specific 23:57:56 Are you subtracting the "-1" there? 23:58:00 yeah 23:59:46 hm i'm jumping too fast 2016-04-09: 00:00:01 impomatic: basically I decided that a population of 170 was too big to store it all as data 00:01:13 hm AMA should be beginning now 00:02:37 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:03:03 https://www.reddit.com/r/comics/comments/4dyros/im_david_morganmar_author_of_darths_droids_and/ 00:06:57 How can I set up NNTP server and client on this Linux? 00:08:10 a1 ... am (b1 ... bn c) = fmap (a1 ... am) (b1 ... bn) c. so if you can handle fmap (a1 ... am) you can handle the former. but the latter is fmap^{\circ n-1} fmap a1 ... am . 00:08:51 *m 00:08:54 sheesh 00:09:30 and thus by induction you can handle any application of anything you can handle. 00:10:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:10:44 I'm formulating an idea for an Esolang that could actually be of use to someone 00:10:50 What idea is it? 00:11:23 zzo38: A language based entirely on lazy-evaluated sequences 00:12:31 zzo38: Maybe sort of like Haskell, but the "Functions always return the same value for the same arguments" requirement would be dropped in favor of "Functions are lazily-evaluated sequences of values" 00:13:32 zzo38: Designing an example 00:13:41 @let dash = dot dot 00:13:42 Defined. 00:14:18 * hppavilion[1] swats shachaf. In the face. With a chair. 00:14:26 What? 00:14:30 Please don't do that. 00:15:31 shachaf: Too late. 00:15:37 zzo38: It's also vectorized. 00:19:23 Here's a speculative example: http://pastebin.com/h3n9xdS6 00:20:01 [x, y, z] creates a new literal lazy 00:20:12 -> passes the previous lazy to the next lazy 00:20:20 {} vectorizes its contents 00:20:33 shachaf: don't complain, it was just an act of chairity 00:20:57 oerjan: Yeah, I even let shachaf keep the chair 00:21:17 I don't appreciate what you're doing and you should stop. 00:22:43 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 00:23:10 Hi, lambda-11235! 00:23:25 hppavilion[1]: Hello 00:23:34 hellambda-1123581321 00:23:54 lambda-11235: Given the latter part of your nick, I'm making a language that may be of interest to you 00:24:11 (That's the weakest reasoning I've ever spewed) 00:24:19 hppavilion[1]: Oh? 00:24:58 All languages are of interest to me. 00:24:59 lambda-11235: It's based entirely on feeding lazy-evaluated sequences into iterators to make NEW lazy-evaluated sequences 00:25:05 lambda-11235: Fair enough 00:25:15 Except Java 00:26:15 lambda-11235: People think Java is a language? 00:27:02 it's a language and a VM and a security model and a browser plugin 00:27:05 and a library 00:27:13 some of these things work better than others 00:29:41 ais523: It's also a drink. I personally only use the VM and the library. 00:32:27 -!- bennyZ has joined. 00:32:35 Truth machine now available @ http://pastebin.com/h3n9xdS6 00:33:42 -!- bennyZ has left. 00:35:55 at this point it's almost worth banning the username fragment, lots of Spanish-speakers using canaima seem to end up here when they shouldn't be for no obvious reason <-- i've been tempted. 00:36:26 yes, I know you discussed it earlier 00:36:33 the redirect-ban actually makes a lot of sense 00:36:41 but you'd need a good description in the target channel 00:37:04 lambda-11235: Given the latter part of your nick, I'm making a language that may be of interest to you 00:37:11 you're making a language based on 11235? 00:37:45 Phantom_Hoover: It was very weak reasoning 00:38:02 are you sure you didn't mean 'former' 00:38:05 Phantom_Hoover: It can construct infinite fibonacci sequences. 00:38:11 Phantom_Hoover: 11235 =! fibonacci 00:38:29 (=! is equals, of course; not !=) 00:38:39 (the "of course" is part of the name) 00:38:52 oh i thought you were referring to the lambda bit 00:39:34 hppavilion[1]: It reminds me a little bit of https://github.com/matz/streem. 00:40:07 Anyway, chemistry homework, gotta do that. 00:40:28 lambda-11235: Really, it's just https://docs.python.org/2/library/itertools.html in the form of a programming language 00:41:38 impomatic: darn, can't stop: http://sprunge.us/QVMB 00:41:48 impomatic: using 32 threads... wee 00:45:02 int-e: have you still got a few ideas how to reduce it further? 00:46:14 -!- tromp_ has joined. 00:48:04 no. 00:48:27 I'd need to find a different approach... 00:53:15 And I'm not very hopeful there... to manage to squeeze in more threads I think I'd have to compress the image data, but any decoding I can think of will need significantly more than 2 instructions per pixel (at least 2 extra instructions, I think)... so I'd need more than 50 threads, and that's optimistic?! 00:56:15 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:12:25 impomatic: apparently you got it done in 3.5 instructions per pixel... but that doesn't change the math significantly :) 01:13:56 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:16:07 My code will display almost any picture, with any number of colours :-) (and I have code which is a few cycles slower which will display any picture). 01:17:44 yeah I've just looked at the 0x2E cycle one 01:17:52 So I know whatever puzzle the author devises, if it has <=48 pixels it can be solved in <=7 cycles. Otherwise it can be solved in <=0x30 cycles 01:18:40 > (0x14-5) * 31 / 170 01:18:41 2.735294117647059 01:19:23 (that's instructions per visible pixel in my code) 01:20:09 (there's some overdrawing and some pixels have to be erased... so it's worse than the optimal 2) 01:20:30 ... 01:20:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:20:52 rdococ: excellent points. I like the middle one best. 01:20:57 haha 01:21:00 ... 01:21:11 int-e: That reminds me of a joke told by Raymond Smullyan. 01:23:24 "232a" in https://archive.org/stream/WhatIsTheNameOfThisBook/What-is-the-Name-of-this-Book_djvu.txt 01:23:35 Hmm, that's not great OCR. 01:25:24 ah 01:25:44 at least there was no drum solo 01:28:01 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:49:48 -!- XorSwap has joined. 02:01:30 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:12:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:17:06 I made some fix of Magic: the Puzzling: Codex but do you think it is more better now? Please tell me in case something is still wrong 02:18:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:20:57 I have decided that, for XML-like data storage, KML is the optimal Markup Language 02:22:11 I think that it can be different whether you want text marked or data marked, too. 02:23:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:24:35 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/314599/why-is-xml-called-a-language-exactly makes me sad. 02:24:48 zzo38: KML is better no matter what 02:24:58 zzo38: For XML-like uses 02:25:17 Obviously, for mapping data and holding arrays of integers/strings, JSON is better 02:25:25 (Is there some other KML I don't know of?) 02:25:30 For some kind of data, INI or JSON or RDF might also help to form such a data. By having a reasonable kind of XML representation of such a data then you can use XSL with it too, although the XML would not be the ordinary representation of the data 02:25:49 (KML = Knuth Markup Language = TeX's syntax) 02:26:14 (I don't know of any other name for it) 02:26:25 TeX supports varying syntax 02:27:02 It is good if you want to process it with TeX, but only TeX can properly parse it 02:27:20 zzo38: Not PURE TeXian syntax 02:27:25 zzo38: But TeX-like syntax 02:27:27 Why, you ask? 02:27:59 Because multiple bodies on a tag, plus more TeX in properties (not just a string). That's why. 02:28:25 \tag[prop]{body1}{body2} 02:28:45 -!- tromp_ has joined. 02:29:16 It does not even require that they are in square brackets; other delimiters are also possible, such as a number terminated by a full stop, or text terminated by a paragraph break. 02:29:20 When they were inventing the name for XML 02:29:35 They voted on the name 02:29:52 The second choice- after XML- was MAGMA: Minimal Architecture for Generalized Markup Applications 02:29:56 zzo38: That's good. 02:33:54 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:36:55 I have written some codes in TeX and with that it is possible to see some example of how it can be done. 02:37:10 It can even include chess notations. 02:39:13 zzo38: Oooh :) 02:39:32 zzo38: I'm trying to think up a new kind of KRF 02:40:16 JSON is for numbers, strings, bools, maps from those to JSON, and arrays of JSON 02:40:25 XML is for text that has certain properties applied to subsegments 02:41:33 Yes that is how JSON and XML are good for. 02:42:07 zzo38: I'm trying to find gaps 02:42:15 zzo38: Areas where a new language would be good 02:42:58 JSON is fairly limited in scope, but XML isn't good for storing any kind of data other than text, really (because it doesn't syntactically support anything /but/ text and tags) 02:43:29 For even simpler data than JSON there is INI, and for a more complicated data there is RDF which is even extensible 02:44:09 I wouldn't say that that's what XML is for. 02:44:23 (Of course there is also tab-separated values is another format) 02:44:24 tswett: What else is it for? 02:44:34 zzo38: *character-separated 02:44:35 I'd say XML is for representing data in a way that's both human-readable and machine-readable. 02:44:45 So it *can* be used to represent pretty much any kind of data. 02:44:50 tswett: Yes, but the data it represents is only really good as text 02:45:02 tswett: You can represent non-textual data, but it isn't syntactically shown 02:45:13 tswett: Yes, although it isn't really very good for any purpose other than text markup I think 02:45:31 hppavilion[1]: what's a type of non-textual data you're thinking of? 02:45:47 tswett: Well, integers for one are bad in XML 02:45:52 15 is a pain 02:46:08 xml assembly? 02:46:14 shachaf: Oooh, nice 02:46:28 I suppose. If you're applying XML to something related to integers, you'd probably just put the digits in there and call it good. 02:46:30 Like, uh... 02:46:32 Yes, JSON does it more easily to write numbers (although it doesn't distinguish between integer and non-integer) 02:46:49 zzo38: True, and that's a flaw on JSON's part 02:46:52 Dammit, JSON. 02:46:54 02:47:15 tswett: "Why are there quotes around a number?" 02:47:18 The problem there is that that XML doesn't indicate that the attributes there *have* to be integers. 02:47:19 In RDF there is representation for any type (and is extensible); the Turtle syntax has a reasonable way to represent both integer and fraction numbers 02:47:27 That too. XML tends to be a lot more verbose than JSON. 02:48:03 tswett: Perhaps we need a JSON++ 02:48:36 JSON represents hashmaps and arrays, XML represents trees... 02:48:52 hppavilion[1]: you know about YAML? 02:48:59 tswett: Oh, right, YAML 02:48:59 And, RDF represent directed graphs 02:49:04 zzo38: Yep 02:49:25 Perhaps a language that represents Rings/Groups/Etc would be nice? 02:49:30 I'm sure mathematicians would love it 02:49:49 Hm... 02:50:08 all evil 02:50:21 Haskell-like syntax is usually perfectly fine for representing mathematical stuff. 02:50:28 tswett: True, true 02:50:51 tswett: What's a good data-y data structure not covered by those? 02:51:20 Labeled directed graphs are sort of like the ultimate data structure. 02:51:21 Tables, Ontologies, Matrices 02:51:30 tswett: Yeah, they are 02:51:36 Though... I guess there are a lot of things that are "sort of like the ultimate data structure". 02:52:10 tswett: Perhaps a strongly-typed language of some sort? One that forces you to obey a format to prevent errors? 02:52:17 Sort of like JSON with a typechecker 02:52:22 TOM 02:52:26 Now I'm salivating. 02:52:54 Strongly-Typed Data Language. 02:53:03 tswett: Yay! 02:53:09 Except call it something punchy. Not STDL. 02:53:44 tswett: The parser would reject the data completely if it doesn't match a strict, dependently-typed format and return None 02:54:00 (or null, or nothing, whatever) 02:54:20 tswett: I think we meant statically-typed 02:54:35 Right, right. 02:54:47 tswett: But it would obviously have dependent types 02:55:04 tswett: ...leading to a second language which expresses the typing 02:55:15 Or better yet, the /same/ language 02:56:24 tswett: What data structures would it support by default? I'm thinking Maps, Objects (named tuples), Lists, Tuples, and Tagged Unions 02:56:30 Yes how are you going to do the ring/group/etc? 02:56:36 I'm thinkin'... 02:56:38 All of them. 02:56:40 zzo38: I discarded that idea 02:56:44 Every data structure that is possible to define. 02:56:51 tswett: So the directed graph then? 02:57:03 Well, that's *one* data structure. 02:57:09 tswett: *fine* 02:57:17 tswett: What will be the *core* data structures? 02:57:41 With Int, Real, Char, Bool, Top, and Void being the builtin scalar data types 02:57:52 How about... the list. 02:58:03 Everything else is just kind of a fancy list. 02:58:10 As Lisp fans can tell you. 02:58:31 A tuple is just a list with a specific length whose elements have specific types. 02:58:49 tswett: I was going to make lists homogenous 02:58:55 tswett: But that actually makes some sense 02:59:08 A map is just a list whose elements are 2-tuples whose first elements are never duplicated, and whose order doesn't matter. 02:59:22 (a, b) = [a, b$] 02:59:37 What's your notation here? 02:59:45 tswett: $ is end-of-list 02:59:53 I suppose it'd be better as [a, b, $] 03:00:07 If $ denotes the end of the list, what is ] for? 03:00:28 tswett: No, [a, b] means "An infinite a, b list" 03:00:38 tswett: $ force the list to end at a specific point 03:00:44 Hmmm. 03:01:03 By the way... 03:01:10 {A: B} = [(A: a, B: b)] where... something 03:01:15 Have a sort of property-based typing. Like... 03:01:18 (... something is valid syntax) 03:01:20 With RDF it is possible to represent a looping list as well as an incomplete list 03:01:23 The most basic type is, say, "thing". 03:01:31 tswett: OK 03:01:41 But you can make more complicated types. Like "list". And "list of integers". 03:01:45 And, and... 03:01:53 "list whose first element is equal to its third element" 03:01:59 tswett: Oooh 03:02:13 "list of integers, where each integer is greater than the last" 03:02:28 tswett: Syntax? 03:02:36 Complicated. 03:03:11 Damn it, what have I gotten myself into? :D 03:03:25 tswett: OK, so the builtin type is "bits", which means "big hunk-o-bits" and the builtin structure is "list of these types" 03:03:45 No, "list of bits" 03:03:53 Hm... 03:04:14 tswett: Ignore my previous 3 messages, the idea sucked 03:04:22 So here's part of my idea. 03:04:54 The basic type is, I guess, "thing". 03:05:09 Now, if you have a "thing", then you don't know anything about it. And since you don't know anything about it, you can't do anything with it. 03:05:25 listOfIncreasingValues :: [Int] (a->0>a->1) forall a 03:05:50 (alternatively, s/->/!!/ 03:05:52 ) 03:06:00 tswett: Go on 03:06:17 Can't it be similar to a set of integers too? 03:06:19 If you have a "list of things", now you know that it's a list, so you can do list stuff with it, like getting its length. 03:06:38 And you can rearrange it, and stuff. But you can't really do anything with the individual things in it. 03:06:48 And... that's how it all goes. 03:06:59 By the way, let me see if I can whip something up. 03:07:22 But even in Haskell you can do stuff if you do not know the type of something, but the only way can be done is to match the same type variable such as if it is (x -> x) then you can use the same input as output type. 03:07:45 zzo38: Yes, we know about polymorphism 03:09:32 data IncreasingList where { Empty :: IncreasingList; Cons :: (x :: Int) -> (xs :: IncreasingList) -> (case xs of { Empty -> (); (y:_) -> x < y }) -> IncreasingList } 03:09:51 So... Haskell doesn't actually let you do that. 03:10:05 But you can do something really similar in Coq. 03:10:18 But don't ask me to; I don't remember the syntax. 03:10:35 Anyway, the idea here is... 03:10:57 "Increasing list of integers" can just be defined as a list of integers, which satisfies the predicate "is increasing". 03:11:14 I have to go eat dinner 03:11:36 What is if you have define a set and then you will make the sorted list from such set 03:12:11 But an alternative is to sort of weave it into the definition of your list, so to speak. 03:12:20 OK 03:12:41 hppavilion[1]: see you later. 03:15:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:37:39 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:44:42 I have implemented Black-Johansen in JavaScript now 03:45:31 `unidecode 𓂸 𓂹 𓂺 03:46:05 ​[U+130B8 EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH D052] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+130B9 EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH D052A] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+130BA EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH D053] 03:46:41 What is Black-Johansen? 03:46:41 Do you know Egyptian writing? 03:46:59 shachaf: An algorithm for optimizing text encoding in Z-machine 03:47:29 -!- tromp_ has joined. 03:47:47 (The algorithm is made up by myself and by oerjan) 03:49:07 I figured that part. 03:52:01 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:52:10 The text is encoded as a series of 5-bit Z-characters, involving three shift states. Zero always represents a space; 1 and 2 and 3 are "frequent words"; 4 and 5 set the shift state, and 6 to 31 are emit the character. The initial shift state is 0, where 4 means temporary shift to state 1 and 5 means temporary shift to state 2. In state 1, 4 permanent shifts to 1 and 5 permanent shifts to 0. In state 2, 5 permanent shifts to 0 and 4 permanent shift 03:52:48 Each character has its own preferred shift state, for which it is part of that character set. In addition, Z-character 6 of state 2 means the next two Z-characters are interpreted as an ASCII code and it then emits an arbitrary ASCII character. 03:54:03 Infocom designed this but then presumably they did not figure out how to encode text in an efficient way using this, so they just omitted the use of permanent shifts and used only temporary shifts in their compiler. 03:57:34 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:58:15 Shift state 0 contains lowercase letters, shift state 1 contains uppercase letters, while shift state 2 contains the ASCII escape, line break, followed by 0123456789.,!?_#'"/\-:() 03:58:48 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 03:59:02 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:59:46 Possibly by this you can understand what strings [4,13,10,17,17,20,5,19,0,4,28,20,23,17,9,5,20] and [5,5,9,10,11,12,13,6,2,8,14,15,16,17,8] represent. 04:03:11 @oeis 4 13 10 04:03:13 Sum of proper divisors minus the number of proper divisors of n: a(n) = sigm... 04:03:32 They aren't any mathematical sequences; I described the encoding above 04:07:09 The second example above may be a bit silly but a better example of a text where Black-Johansen will encode more efficiently would be "Copyright (c) 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986 Infocom, Inc. All rights reserved." Using a permanent shift would encode the numbers much more efficiently than temporary shifts 04:10:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:11:51 tswett: Here's a piece of software that needs to be invented 04:11:57 tswett: Scripted Documents 04:12:15 (But ones that you edit in a mortal-friendly way) 04:12:47 So... like MS Word? 04:12:57 And Excel? 04:13:06 tswett: MS word isn't scripted usually 04:13:09 AFAIK 04:13:17 Right. 04:13:19 But it *can* be. 04:13:37 tswett: Also, Excel is a good example, but PowerPoint is a better one 04:13:44 tswett: It can? 04:13:50 ...I'm pretty sure. 04:13:56 Excel can definitely be scripted. 04:14:02 tswett: No, Word 04:14:16 I'm pretty sure Word can be scripted. 04:14:27 tswett: Huh. Is scripting Word user-friendly? 04:14:39 Well, you need to be able to use the scripting language. 04:14:52 tswett: Oh 04:15:01 And it's not like it's a particularly bad language or anything. 04:15:31 tswett: I'm thinking something like "Select word -> Right click -> Make Button", which opens an "Events" window 04:15:43 Then in events, "Connect -> Action -> Show Image" 04:16:21 Lots and lots of people have put lots and lots of effort into creating a programming system that can be used by people who don't already know programming. 04:16:52 tswett: Fair enough 04:17:01 tswett: Do you know HTML5, out of curiosity? 04:17:31 tswett: Because I kind of want to make a Free Software Online office suite 04:17:38 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 04:18:10 -!- tromp_ has joined. 04:18:39 Kinda. 04:19:16 tswett: Any idea what I should call it? 04:19:31 Fsoos. Nah, that's probably not a good name. 04:19:36 hppavilion[1]: hey, let me ask you something. 04:19:42 sebbu: Go on 04:19:43 Do you want to start a project and see it through to completion? 04:19:48 Whoops, tswett 04:19:51 tswett: I really do 04:20:00 tswett: I even wrote a short essay on it for school at some point 04:20:12 tswett: But I am genuinely terrible at focusing 04:20:28 You'll get better at it. 04:20:41 I hope so 04:21:40 tswett: I'll go with Zodiac Office, because "Zodiac" is one of my stock names 04:22:12 What sort of project do you think you might want to do? 04:22:20 I'll give the word processor the working name "VomitWordsOntoScreen" 04:23:10 Many of the ideas you've described are the sort of thing a person may spend ten years on. 04:23:27 Do you have any ideas that are, say, weekend-sized? 04:24:31 Today's what if is awesome 04:24:46 tswett: ...Nope. 04:24:54 Though that's probably what I should do 04:25:16 (on the topic of What If): Especially the diagram of wing shapes 04:27:38 I'll try making a tiny calculator with a Qt-based GUI 04:27:49 That seems more weekend-sized 04:27:53 I'll be sure it's horrible 04:29:34 That sounds like a good idea. 04:29:46 Prefix notation, because it's easier to parse AND nobody knows how to use it 04:30:49 All integers must be expressed in Dozenal, because it is clearly the superior system 04:31:45 (That's easy to do in python) 04:44:16 OK, got the backend working for +-*/ 04:45:03 * Sgeo has successfully written something similar to Haskell's reflection library in RUst: 04:45:04 https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/3d7f8449ea5ba136038a9c677e744004 04:51:31 We will need the ability to manipulate the TV guide of the cable box by the use of SQL codes. 04:56:22 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:01:15 -!- rdococ_ has joined. 05:01:33 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:02:58 [wiki] [[Pyth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46761&oldid=46231 * 86.180.125.40 * (-2) /* Quine */ 05:04:00 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:17:00 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:30:57 tswett: What is the minimal database? 05:33:58 tswett: Assuming that all querying must be done in the language, and data produced cannot be filtered any more beyond that, but that you want a technically-usable DB 05:35:49 -!- centrinia has joined. 05:43:15 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:47:59 -!- XorSwap has joined. 05:59:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: To sleep, perchance to dream of, hm, bears maybe?). 06:06:20 -!- tromp_ has joined. 06:29:00 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:49:15 -!- MoALTz has joined. 06:55:15 <\oren\> the minimal database is usually implemented as "a folder full of CSV files" 06:55:28 <\oren\> or sometimes "full of JSON files" 06:56:31 <\oren\> in C, it is often "a file containing arbitrary fwritten structs" 06:59:11 minimal database is also often implemented via using the filename to store the value of one field 06:59:18 thus using the filesystem as a hash table 06:59:25 <\oren\> yeah that too 06:59:51 but really, if you have nonrelational data, you can't do much better than a hash table for your database anyway 07:00:17 it's relational queries that databases are very good at, that and situations where you can't fit the whole thing in memory or you need to handle power loss without data loss 07:02:45 Here's a weird reddit rule 07:02:59 [X-POST/r/name-of-this-subreddit] flag must be in title when reposting OC from this sub. 07:05:08 [wiki] [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46762&oldid=46440 * Kc kennylau * (+49) /* Interpreter */ 07:07:41 <\oren\> AARGH why doesn't ksp have a "dump fuel" button 07:08:23 <\oren\> I need to fly in circles a bunch before I can land this damn thinf 07:08:56 <\oren\> either that or be really really good at flying 07:13:12 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:29:36 -!- tromp_ has joined. 07:30:29 -!- infinitymaster has joined. 07:33:52 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:42:22 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 07:48:07 save.H4X 07:59:49 I've invented a new buzzword-that-sounds-good-but-is-actually-horribly-awful 08:02:16 (It's in the same category as "Self-modifying code", "Java Applet", and "think outside the tesseract") 08:02:22 I call it: "Metascripting" 08:02:42 whoa whoa whoa 08:02:46 Remember Spellbreaker? 08:03:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:05:15 -!- infinitymaster has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:05:49 -!- infinitymaster has joined. 08:05:53 Ugh. Forbes is evil because they block you if you have an adblocker. 08:07:47 I think that we should send some legalbabble to them referencing nonexistant legislation so they'll get rid of it 08:10:03 -!- infinitymaster has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:10:13 Who is we? 08:17:15 -!- infinitymaster has joined. 08:20:35 I'm going to (attempt to) read Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity 08:20:43 * hppavilion[1] is many 08:20:47 shachaf: ^ 08:22:03 -!- infinitymaster has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:35:38 -!- infinitymaster has joined. 08:40:01 -!- infinitymaster has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:30:11 -!- tromp_ has joined. 09:34:18 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:34:42 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:35:48 -!- me2 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:49:44 -!- rdococ_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:50:54 -!- rdococ has joined. 09:54:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:03:02 -!- me2 has joined. 10:25:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:30:52 -!- tromp_ has joined. 10:34:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:35:10 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:55:20 -!- S1 has joined. 11:00:14 -!- S1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:39:13 -!- S1 has joined. 11:58:53 Is brainfuck's overflow behaviour undefined in the C sense? That is, can a compiler optimize a program on the assumption that the program never over or underflows? 12:02:23 I think it's implementation-defined, if you want to follow the C standard's terminology. 12:03:43 Many implementations just use unsigned char cells. So +[+] will terminate. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants distinguished between "wrapping" and "non-wrapping"... 12:03:53 -!- Reece` has joined. 12:05:55 The closest we come to actual undefined behavior is the case of stepping off the tape to the left. (but the brainfuck interpreter on anagol has the source code immediately to the left of the data and many programs submitted there rely on that fact...) 12:07:41 -!- gremlins has joined. 12:07:47 And I believe that there are some implementations that have a two-sided unbounded tape. 12:08:57 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:18:39 -!- Reece` has joined. 12:20:02 -!- gremlins has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 12:27:59 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:29:17 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 13:36:14 -!- lleu has joined. 14:19:09 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1). 14:21:36 -!- boily has joined. 14:28:39 @metar CYQB 14:28:40 CYQB 091300Z 31008KT 290V350 30SM SCT038 BKN076 M04/M11 A2972 RMK SC3AC2 SLP071 14:28:45 -!- Reece` has joined. 14:43:33 -!- iconmaster has joined. 14:54:58 -!- Elronnd has quit (Quit: Let's jump!). 14:59:04 int-e: I generally write implementations with a two-sided unbounded tape 14:59:17 -!- Elronnd has joined. 15:01:06 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 15:16:44 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:23:03 -!- centrinia has joined. 15:34:48 int-e: so anagol brainfuck is in principle self-modifying? 15:40:00 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 15:41:11 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:42:01 -!- gremlins has joined. 15:44:09 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:44:13 there are quines. there are quine chains. are there pseudo-quine-chains that gradually evolve into an interpreter for the pseudo-quine-chain? 15:51:27 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:54:00 -!- tromp_ has joined. 16:04:02 FireFly: yes it is 16:09:42 Interesting 16:28:35 -!- boily has quit (Quit: GUILD CHICKEN). 16:48:12 -!- earendel has joined. 17:31:03 -!- yorick___ has changed nick to yorick. 18:08:27 -!- centrinia has joined. 18:09:45 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:32:00 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:54:42 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:55:21 -!- carado has joined. 18:56:15 -!- acertain has joined. 19:10:16 -!- tromp_ has joined. 19:13:07 -!- Froox has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 19:14:26 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:26:43 -!- bb010g has joined. 19:52:51 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:56:21 Heathrow's (post-security) restaurant had the silliest knives I've ever seen. 19:56:54 They looked more like spoons than knives, the "pointy" end was entirely round. 19:57:07 What kind of food do they have? 19:57:09 Like a flat, narrow spoon. 19:57:34 Depending the kind of food it might be suitable, but it might not be suitable because in general that are no good you should need a proper metal knife 19:58:01 Just... British pub stuff. Burgers. Chicken breast. I think they might have something steak-like, but I'm not sure. 19:58:16 Could be they have real knives for special purposes. 20:01:52 I have been in a few British pub in Victoria, BC 20:06:10 I've been to a butterfly garden in Victoria, BC. 20:09:49 I've been to two British pubs in the past two days 20:09:54 Both in Britain 20:11:45 -!- tromp_ has joined. 20:13:00 -!- earendel has joined. 20:15:30 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: gtg). 20:16:39 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:18:28 Wow. In M:tG, the last ability of Skullbriar, the Walking Grave looks REALLY strange to me. 20:29:03 -!- p34k has joined. 20:30:32 Yes it does seem like strange, but can be worked. 20:35:02 zzo38: I wonder if it could matter for that rule whether counters of the same name are distinguishable, but it doesn't seem so. 20:35:53 I think they are not distinguishable just multiples of the same name or different name 20:43:25 I wonder why they didn't just make the ability such that it keeps the counters in the graveyard and stack but not in exile. 20:44:24 Or maybe so taht it keeps the counters in the gravyard and stack and command zone, but not in exile. 20:45:37 If it loses that ability then it will not keep the counters 20:47:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:50:34 What was the way again to put a card into a library as a consequence of mana payment during a spell, that is, not at trigger speed? 20:51:32 Not just reorder your library that is, but put something to a library from another zone. 20:52:28 Ah yes, Darksteel Colossus or similar abilities. 20:59:12 If I play a Jayemdae Tome and during playing, pay for it by sacrificing a Darksteel Colossus on Ashnod's Altar, and get unlucky with shuffling, can Jayemdae Tome cause me to try to draw the Colossus, which then doesn't do anything because it can't move? 21:02:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:02:44 Have you guys heard that the US Congress is trying to ban citizens from using impossible-to-break encryption? 21:03:26 I have not heard of that, but would not be surprised of such thing 21:04:04 zzo38: I was told by a teacher 21:04:16 zzo38: I have a feeling it'll lead to a new field of cryptography 21:04:35 "Impossible-to-break, but doesn't see like it on the surface. Also, make a billion of these" 21:04:36 what 21:04:53 if you mean steganography then that's a thing yeah 21:05:10 encryption with plausible deniability 21:06:09 Phantom_Hoover: Yep 21:06:17 Phantom_Hoover: That's likely what would happen 21:06:51 in the uk it's already a crime to refuse to give an encryption key to the police 21:06:54 -!- acertain has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:07:26 Phantom_Hoover: What if you don't have the key because of the way things were set up? 21:07:48 This guideline M:tG is using that any real-world mammal needs to have a narrow creature type approperiate for its species is crazy. They have tons of creature types for mammals that are used only on a few cards. 21:07:50 then that'd be your defence in court 21:08:10 but if you have some actual means of accessing the data then you're compelled to give that up 21:09:11 Mole is the latest one. They can't just add a "rodent" type because there had been rats and since ancient times. 21:15:29 Is there a way to execute JS in-browser as a sandbox? 21:15:47 Essentially, to tell it "You may only use these functions as builtins" 21:16:12 Preferably (almost necessarily) where "these functions" can be a mix of builtins and custom functions? 21:17:02 Ok, so now the rules don't specify any canonical way to determine which side of double-face card is the front face. This is horrible. 21:17:34 Looks like firefox has evalInSandbox 21:18:32 And they're caught unaware by it too, just look at this: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=410049 shows the back face on the left side, unlike for most double-faced cards. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA HOIST BY THEIR OWN PETARD! 21:29:03 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 21:31:50 zzo38: if you try to download and save the Comprehensive rules from wizards.com , be VERY careful, because the url has the date typoed 21:32:05 so after I downloaded, it didn't sort as if it were the latest version 21:33:03 -!- acertain has joined. 21:34:19 -!- Reece` has joined. 21:35:03 -!- gremlins has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:49:18 I am using the HTML version so don't need to download directly from Wizards of the Coast 21:50:59 Correction. I was looking at the wrong version of the rules, because of this date thing, and the rules do specify which face is the front, by naming both styles of icons, but Westvale Abbey still seems buggy in Gatherer. 22:02:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:11:34 -!- tromp_ has joined. 22:16:15 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:16:40 It is possible in Node.js to execute a sandbox context but it is necessary to be careful by enabling strict mode and removing the default prototype of the sandbox context object as well as doing other stuff 22:19:27 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:23:49 You should also define any function needed inside of the sandbox 22:24:12 zzo38: and set memory limits and other stuff I guess 22:26:43 They recommend running untrusted code in a separate process, which would be needed in order to set memory limits and that stuff anyways 22:27:03 There is also vm.runInDebugContext although it does not document how the debug context is working 22:34:18 You can use Object.defineProperty in order to remove access to JavaScript built-ins, it looks like. 22:47:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:56:03 zzo38: You know node, correct? 22:56:10 Wait, no, wrong question 22:56:17 zzo38: Have you ever used PEGjs? 22:58:10 Oh, I think I've figured it out 23:00:43 -!- p34k has quit. 23:08:08 <\oren\> if they ban strong encryption in the usa, then maybe the databases will move to canada or (trump forbid) mexico. 23:08:51 `which fueue 23:09:26 seriously. 23:09:41 ​/hackenv/bin/fueue 23:09:51 ah. 23:09:57 `ls share 23:09:59 8ballreplies \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ cat \ conscripts \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello2.c \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ UnicodeData.txt \ units.dat \ WordData 23:10:23 `` ls */*.fu 23:10:31 src/brainfuck.fu 23:11:00 `` echo '<' | fueue src/brainfuck.fu 23:11:17 grmbl 23:11:23 `echo hi 23:11:31 No output. 23:11:31 hi 23:11:54 `url bin/fueue 23:11:56 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/fueue 23:12:17 very binary. 23:14:31 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:15:02 `` echo '<' | fueue $(cat src/brainfuck.fu) 23:15:04 Error: fueue received too many arguments. The Hello world program \ Hello, world! 23:15:17 wat 23:15:33 `` echo '<' | fueue "$(cat src/brainfuck.fu)" 23:15:34 No output. 23:15:43 oh. 23:16:10 i'm just not sure if i remember how bin/fueue takes its program. 23:16:26 `` echo '+[+.]' | fueue "$(cat src/brainfuck.fu)" 23:16:27 ​ \ 23:16:33 seems to work 23:16:36 ah 23:16:51 `` echo '+[+.]' | fueue "$(cat src/brainfuck.fu)" 23:16:52 ​ \ 23:17:00 ok, that was the source of the beep 23:17:10 `` echo '<+[+.]' | fueue "$(cat src/brainfuck.fu)" 23:17:11 ​ \ 23:17:13 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:17:18 ok, that confirms it. 23:17:19 please don't \a in public twh 23:17:22 oh it beeps too? that must be annoying :P 23:17:55 shachaf: please don't use shitty clients in public twh 23:17:57 it may be messing up colors in irssi, too, now that I look at it 23:18:07 MY IRSSI LOOKS FINE 23:18:16 oerjan: what's wrong with a client that supports notifications 23:18:42 shachaf: i dunno but i hear no beeps hth 23:18:48 by default irssi can be fooled to some extent with control sequences starting with ^D (\004) 23:18:58 -!- ^v has joined. 23:19:53 anyway, all this was just because i didn't remember what i did with brainfuck.fu going left. seems i made it double-ended. 23:20:02 *double-sided 23:21:26 -!- boily has joined. 23:21:33 i guess it was easier to just use two identical stacks for initial tape 23:22:11 bood evenily 23:22:45 And I believe that there are some implementations that have a two-sided unbounded tape. <-- based on this 23:23:17 bonsœrjan. 23:23:36 bonsoint-er. 23:24:08 too bad ais523 isn't here. 23:24:22 * oerjan whistles innocently 23:25:41 @metar ENVA 23:25:42 ENVA 092150Z 12007KT 9999 FEW040 01/M02 Q1016 RMK WIND 670FT 17003KT 23:25:43 sshd[32006]: Connection closed by 5.103.65.96 [preauth] <--- fine, but what's the point of doing this once every minute? 23:26:18 -!- staffehn_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:26:19 and here i nearly changed to my summer jacket the other day... 23:26:25 -!- staffehn has joined. 23:27:42 I don't think I ever vesperally porthelloed ais523. it'd make a fine one: bonsais523r. 23:27:46 @metar CYQB 23:27:47 CYQB 092200Z 31011G20KT 30SM SCT044 M02/M11 A2988 RMK SC3 PRESRR SLP125 23:27:51 Perhaps something is rotten in the state of Denmark. [IP is assigned to an DK ISP] 23:28:18 there are quines. there are quine chains. are there pseudo-quine-chains that gradually evolve into an interpreter for the pseudo-quine-chain? <-- wat 23:30:50 you know about recursive quine chains, where a program output source in another language that output source in another language, etc... and then you get the original source? 23:31:33 what about pseudo-quine-chains, which approximatively get you the original source after a full loop, that you loop and loop and loop up until you get an interpreter to bootstrap the original loop. 23:32:18 hm, same thing on another server, two different IPs there... Kuala Lumpur, and the Netherlands 23:32:45 * int-e shrugs 23:33:07 time to go play some Dominion... 23:33:17 -!- boily has quit (Quit: MASSIVE CHICKEN). 23:33:44 (some botnet for sure, but it still seems odd to scan ports that often... that's what I suppose this is, I'm too lazy to do a packet dump) 23:35:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:50:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 23:53:41 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 23:57:55 -!- centrinia has joined. 2016-04-10: 00:13:09 -!- iconmaster has joined. 00:18:36 I want to make up the computer operating system that you can use a Forth environment and a SSH client with double one time pad encryption; the pad data is stored in the computer but also on the external memory which must be XOR together, and then it is further encrypted with a password, and RAM scrambling and hardware security so that it is deleted if someone try to modify the program. The external memory must be attached to your body so that if s 00:20:21 zzo38: that looks truncated 00:20:25 -!- Frooxius has joined. 00:20:36 Is double one time pad encryption where you xor with the one time pad twice, for extra security? 00:20:36 -!- earendel has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:20:37 -!- earendel has joined. 00:20:37 -!- earendel has quit (Changing host). 00:20:37 -!- earendel has joined. 00:25:24 shachaf: of course not, everyone knows that's the identity. you need to use sum instead of xor hth 00:28:22 * oerjan thinks math trolling may be too hard. 00:29:13 -!- bb010g has joined. 00:29:42 oh and boily never mapoled me up there. i seem to flying high. 00:29:50 *to be 00:30:01 hm now he's gone. 00:31:43 oerjan: obviously i meant you compute plaintext ^ pad and then you compute plaintext ^ pad a second time 00:32:33 ah. 00:32:54 well in that case you need it three times so you can do a proper error correction hth 00:37:27 -!- tromp_ has joined. 00:37:54 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:41:20 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 00:48:17 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:10:17 shachaf: No, double one time pad is when you use two separate pads 01:10:30 half-time pad 01:10:54 (Which can be combined into one by XOR operation, although it is called double because they are stored on separate memory) 01:11:09 If my message is truncated, to what point? 01:12:02 "so that if s" 01:12:36 The external memory must be attached to your body so that if someone steal the computer, the external memory is broken. 01:13:16 (Some sort of error detection is also needed, in order to prevent someone from tampering with the data being sent across the network.) 01:15:25 Hopefully it can be understandable? 01:16:12 I'm reminded to http://www.xkcd.com/538/ 01:17:49 Since it is SSH with one time pad including external memory that can be broken, the police can hit you with a wrench and force you to tell them the password, but it will not be of any help to them. Next time you use it, the password will have been changed. 01:18:41 *reminded of 01:18:48 don't forget the drugging part 01:19:54 zzo38: and, like some people who device similar encryption schemes point out, even if the police can't access your data this way, it may cause the police to deliberately inconvenience you very seriously in other ways 01:20:15 All of the data is stored remotely anyways, so it won't help. The key will be destroyed by the time the data is accessed, and once the data is gone from the screen, the RAM is scrambled too so it cannot be recovered. This includes even if they try to install spyware on the computer, the remaining keys will go missing and the data is now no longer accessible anyways. 01:20:43 b_jonas: Yes, that is still possible. 01:20:44 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 01:21:00 Still I do not mean protection only from the police and government, but also from common thieves and so on, of course 01:24:47 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 01:24:56 Of course it will not stop anyone from inconveniencing or killing you. 01:25:12 (But they can do that even if you do not own a computer.) 01:33:20 It also won't prevent local files from being accessed 01:33:57 -!- boily has joined. 01:44:05 wboily 01:48:51 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:53:19 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:59:16 de retœurjan. 02:02:13 -!- tromp_ has joined. 02:06:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:14:39 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:19:29 `wisdom 02:19:48 sbus/SBus is the standard bus in many a Sun SPARC-based system, capable of coping with thirty-two (32) bits in parallel, at rates of around 16.67 to 25 MHz. There is a 96-pin connector, and the cards lay parallel to the motherboard, like toppings on a sandwich. 02:20:47 which was the most piniest connector in history? 02:21:40 boily: maybe some of the modern CPU connections? 02:21:51 For Intel cpus 02:40:11 indeed. CPU sockets are piny. 02:40:18 (piny? pinny? pinnerous?) 02:41:00 so sbus is somewhere between eisa and pci 02:41:06 vlb 02:41:37 earendello. vlb? 02:41:39 vesa local bus.. 80486 02:41:43 oh. 02:42:08 b_jellonas. what about external connectors? centronix, maybe? 02:44:00 was it the printer connector? 02:44:08 lpt1 02:49:00 -!- XorSwap has joined. 02:59:03 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:59:36 -!- tromp_ has joined. 03:26:47 Are there any esoteric statically typed languages? 03:27:38 hellombda-11235. I think Glass is statically typed. 03:28:46 I'm specifically thinking of an ML like language whose only datatype is a polymorphic function. 03:30:28 ML sans ADTs, functors, conditionals, ..., basicaly only function definitions. 03:43:21 lambda-11235: So just ST λ-calculus? 03:44:06 hppavilion[1]: Yep 03:47:14 lambda-11235: Do you have an issue with ST λ-calculus as the language of choice? It's a little eso 03:47:55 lambda-11235: I'm trying to make a language for Nomicing 03:48:27 hppavilion[1]: Lack of implementation and syntax. 03:48:40 lambda-11235: Lack of syntax? How so? 03:49:25 hppavilion[1]: I assume you're talking about System-F when you ST λ-calculus? 03:49:47 lambda-11235: Not sure. I've heard of ST λ, but I don't know which ones there are 03:50:28 lambda-11235: It appears I am not 03:50:45 "In contrast, systems which introduce polymorphic types (like System F)..." 03:51:27 lambda-11235: I can probably hack together an interpreted statically-typed functional language 03:51:42 hppavilion[1]: The problem is they use math notation, which is variable. ML is the closest I've seen to a strict syntax. 03:51:46 lambda-11235: One with nothing but polymorphic functions 03:52:04 lambda-11235: Do you want pattern matching? 03:52:35 -!- boily has quit (Quit: DISHWASHER CHICKEN). 03:52:45 hppavilion[1]: Not if it only has functions. 03:53:02 lambda-11235: OK 03:53:45 lambda-11235: No tuples? 03:54:25 hppavilion[1]: Only functions, hold on I have an EBNF. 03:54:31 lambda-11235: OK 03:54:36 lambda-11235: EBNF will be helpful 03:54:44 lambda-11235: Python 3 interpreter acceptable? 03:55:45 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:59:07 hppavilion[1]: http://lpaste.net/159372, python 3 would be fine. 04:00:13 lambda-11235: Wait, isn't "Nat" a type? 04:00:20 a non-polymorphic type? 04:00:46 Nat is just a type expansion. 04:01:08 lambda-11235: OK, I don't know ML. I know a bit of haskell, but that's about it 04:01:17 lambda-11235: I don't think I'll be able to help you. Sorry :/ 04:01:24 So you don't have to write ((a -> a) -> a -> a) everytime. 04:01:40 Oooooooooooh 04:01:44 I see now 04:02:18 No worries, I was going to write an interpreter myself, but I'm short on time right now. 04:02:22 OK 04:20:33 lambda-11235: Not sure. I've heard of ST λ, but I don't know which ones there are <-- ST in this context usually doesn't mean "statically typed", but "simply typed", which is a particularly weak version without "real" polymorphism. afaiu system F is much easier to define data types in. 04:23:23 and ML uses hindley-milner, which is somewhere in between. 04:26:09 you obviously haven't heard of the seriously typed lambda calculus 04:34:35 -!- Frooxius has joined. 04:37:00 that is true. 04:37:09 well, was true. 04:38:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:46:26 I am making the Z-machine assembler in JavaScript and I may need two documents; one document describing the input of the program and another document describing the API for writing extensions. What is some feature you might think this API might need to have (that I might not have thought of already)? 04:50:20 There are cases in JavaScript where I will want to use the >>= operator of Haskell 04:50:27 (on arrays mainly) 04:57:29 You could do it like this: function(ar,f){var out=[]; ar.forEach(x=>out.push.apply(out,f(x))); return out;} 04:58:34 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:59:03 Is there a better way? 05:01:59 Possibly this way: (ar,f)=>ar.reduce((x,y)=>(x.push.apply(x,f(y)),x),[]) 05:03:47 [].concat.apply([],ar.map(f)) 05:04:10 * deltab nods 05:05:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:13:13 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 05:16:46 Now there is encodeText which encodes a full text using Black-Johansen, and encodeVocab which is used only for vocabulary words and acts like the ZWSTR instruction of Z-machine (it uses only temporary shifts, no "frequent words" codes, always pads with Z-character 5, and limits the output to a fixed length). 05:24:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:25:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:26:27 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:34:19 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 05:36:52 "Is not the title of any book so far as I know" is not the title of any book so far as I know. But, do you know of any book with such title? 05:38:00 I know a book called "What is the name of this book?". 05:38:07 Maybe that's its title. 05:38:37 `quote preceded 05:38:39 1005) "would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation" would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation 05:40:16 Are you going to make up such band? 05:44:34 "is zzo38's true name" is zzo38's true name 05:45:04 O, I didn't know that. I thought I should know my own name 05:46:12 Are you a cat, maybe? 05:46:17 I don't think you are. 05:46:20 http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/t__s__eliot/poems/15121 05:47:18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NIE4nqcLYQ 05:47:46 I also think I am not 06:10:29 -!- deltab has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:13:36 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:22:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:23:03 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:24:02 -!- heroux has joined. 06:29:05 -!- deltab has joined. 07:02:44 Do you know a card game "one poker"? 07:06:28 Each player gets two cards (face-down), and your opponent will know how many of your cards are higher than seven (ace is high). You play one card (opponent won't yet know if it is high or low), and then bet, and then expose the card you played and the highest card wins, except that a deuce beats an ace. After that they are discarded, the card you did not play is kept and you get one new card for the next hand. 07:07:17 You then again must tell to your opponent how many of your two cards now are higher than seven, and do same thing again as before (you can play either the new card or the card you kept from before). 07:09:32 Do you like this? 07:14:08 -!- tromp_ has joined. 07:18:17 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:27:36 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 07:33:45 -!- variable has joined. 07:54:35 adu hasn't been here in a while 07:55:42 b_jonas: Were you the one who designed predicate nomic? 08:17:28 -!- variable has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero). 08:35:38 -!- Reece` has joined. 08:49:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:01:32 -!- gremlins has joined. 09:02:33 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:12:40 -!- rdococ has joined. 09:14:43 -!- tromp_ has joined. 09:19:16 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 09:22:50 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:22:58 yey 09:42:39 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:45:55 -!- aloril has joined. 09:50:12 -!- gamemanj has joined. 10:05:12 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:06:05 -!- aloril has joined. 10:20:14 -!- Reece` has joined. 10:21:03 -!- gremlins has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:30:47 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:33:34 -!- aloril has joined. 10:42:41 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:43:55 -!- aloril has joined. 10:44:51 -!- aloril has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:48:30 -!- aloril has joined. 11:06:17 -!- mroman has joined. 11:06:34 Does any of you guys know a free webmail provider for anonymous e-mail accounts? 11:06:53 and by anonymous I just mean that I don't have to verify my identity by providing a postal address or mobile phone number 11:07:43 I don't think I've ever had to provide a postal address or mobile phone number... There was that time Hotmail made it really hard to see the "ignore this nonsense and let me get into my email account" link, though. 11:08:04 google requires a real name 11:08:11 it's in their ToS 11:08:20 if you provide fake details you risk that they delete your account 11:08:49 Can I provide initials? >:D 11:09:26 and lying is actually probably a crime 11:09:58 anyway, do you really think they'd suspect John Apley of not being a person? 11:10:09 (Who is John Apley? IDK. That's the point.) 11:11:04 (Unless John Apley is a real name that I picked up from somewhere and never realized. Hmm.) 11:13:33 I've never met anyone by the name of Apley 11:13:57 Good! Basically, there are multiple solutions to the problem. Solution 1 is "you don't seriously believe people actually check for fake names, do you?". Solution 2 is to go find a provider, and presumably one that won't spy on your emails, 11:14:36 Solution 3 is just to setup SMTP & POP3 on a server and hope you never talk to anyone using Hotmail (they completely reject anything from a dynamic IP address). 11:18:36 alright 11:18:48 if you get an email from apleyjohn@gmail.com that'll be me :D 11:19:12 Yay! Now I have to go advance my Fake Name Calendar. 11:19:20 * gamemanj flips over a sheet and gets out a pen 11:19:27 gamemanj: pretty much all E-Mail providers reject e-mails from a server you just set up at home :D 11:19:34 Actually, GMail doesn't. 11:19:41 But it does put it in the Spam folder. 11:19:58 you need an mx entry for sure 11:20:01 And all my tests have been after sending an email from GMail to the account first so it counts as "solicited". 11:20:22 Aha, the good old "you need an MX entry" myth. Nope, MX is just an optional redirect. 11:20:33 it's not a myth. 11:20:42 if you send something with FROM: foo@bla.ch 11:20:45 Feel free to email me at gamemanj@gamemanj.duckdns.org. 11:20:58 they will make a reverse lookup for bla.ch, check if you have an mx record 11:21:11 and check if the src ip matches the one of the mx entry 11:24:26 In theory, I'd agree with you - in practice, I did tests. It does go into the Spam folder, but emails to and from the server do work. 11:37:25 if the MX query fails, it should do an A query 11:37:41 Exactly. 11:43:26 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:43:52 -!- heroux has joined. 11:46:08 but having their emails delivered to the recipient's spam folder isn't what most people want from a mail server. 11:47:46 int-e: I considered that, but would the emails from an "anonymous email account provider" reach the inbox, either? 11:49:03 No, probably not... but for different reasons (they're bound to have trouble with abuse management and then end up in spam filters simply because a lot of spam originates there...) 11:51:30 Different reasons, but the same result. Again, there is still a problem with Solution 3, which is that if you're using a dynamic IP Hotmail will reject anything you send. 11:53:33 (Hence it's the last solution and not the second or first - there are problems with running your own email server, but if you can't find an email provider that meets your requirements, aka. solutions 1 and 2, what do you do?) 12:15:59 -!- tromp_ has joined. 12:18:01 -!- gremlins has joined. 12:18:33 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:20:40 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:39:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:19:49 -!- boily has joined. 13:29:14 -!- gamemanj has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:33:18 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:40:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:47:04 -!- gamemanj has joined. 13:50:22 @massages-loud 13:50:22 You don't have any messages 13:53:02 Ugh, panicked revision 13:54:46 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 14:08:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 14:09:41 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 14:20:34 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:24:02 esonums 14:24:35 anyways, why is the time dimension negative and not division? 14:24:43 e.g. 3m/2s 14:24:50 but it's 3m-2s??? 14:25:23 never understood it 14:28:51 ? 14:30:10 rdhellococ. ? 14:36:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:44:00 * boily lightly mapoles rdococ 14:44:13 *thwack thwack thwack* 14:44:21 Tanelle. he seems to have gone catatonic. 14:44:42 *thwack thwack* *thwack* *thwackitty thwack* 14:44:55 *thwuck* ♪ 14:45:50 ...? 14:45:56 he's alive! 14:46:04 what do you mean, by negative time? 15:05:34 hmm... not exactly alive. 15:05:49 * boily shakes rdococ “NEGATIVE TIME! NEGATIVE TIME!” 15:07:55 boily: He means: "The universe has no end, though it does have a beginning. --- Infinite." (Ok, probably not. I'm literally reading that off of the front of a random book.) 15:07:55 wait, WHAT? 15:08:15 duh 15:08:24 a flying spaghetti monster wanted to make us 15:08:55 Sending you to time coordinates (Error: space is relative 15:09:17 but esospace isn't 15:09:29 (...I wonder why people keep referring to flying spaghetti monsters? It doesn't happen that often, but it's interesting that it's still relatively common...) 15:09:52 (I believe it's a religion made up to show how dumb the creator believes religions are) 15:12:29 may you be touched by His Noodly Appendage. Ramen. 15:14:32 (note to self: it is a good thing I don't eat pot noodles as it would probably be offensive to ) 15:15:28 you have to up your pasta game. fresh noodles, homemade stock and broth, freshly braised cuts of meats... 15:16:07 . o O ( some nori on the side, ajitsuke tamago, corn... *drool*... ) 15:17:26 (note to self: research the proper name instead of referring to as an Unknown Classifier indexed by a numeric-keyboard-mash ID) 15:18:48 [EXPUNGED] :D 15:19:09 http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/ORTHOGONAL/00/PM.html 15:20:14 boily: Unfortunately, an object in the system with String ID "index$EXPUNGED" also exists. It has links to IDs: "SCP Foundation" "Annoyances" "Things To Use To Annoy People" 15:20:19 -!- tromp_ has joined. 15:21:20 (How to annoy anyone who actually wants to be able to read something: hide all your [EXPUNGED] in [NEED O5 LEVEL] and [REMOVED] your [DELETED]) 15:25:34 ([REDACTED]! gamemanj's [DELETED] [PURGED] me [Content de-Error 15:26:56 o_o 15:27:48 Wait, what on eart-[{yield uses up UNKNOWN instructions of the next frame.} if @yieldOk then @finalReturn else @yieldFail; @finalReturn; @yieldOk = @id+0; { false } ); 15:27:57 IRC [redacted] [Expunged] [Content de-Error 15:28:27 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 15:28:48 Why is this chat glit 15:29:15 Maybe it's because of the Ctrl-Ks? [import_spr @bank_video bkg 0 0 256 256 65536;] 15:29:23 (Best way to troll someone: alϕwЀaϚyЂsКШϹψγήΖΎΥ 15:31:01 (rdococ: I'm just copying random stuff that only makes sense with a very long description.) 15:31:18 * rdococ has quit (Quit: Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 15:31:28 Welp, that's a shame. 15:31:31 LOL 15:31:35 Yes, I get it 15:31:40 it would've been orange if it was real 15:31:59 * rdococ has quit (Quit: gtg) 15:32:02 ... 15:32:09 ... 15:32:27 same client as me 15:32:34 * rdococ 15:32:44 what does my nick show as? 15:32:47 what color? 15:32:56 I think I already showed you. 15:32:57 rdococ: you are blue. 15:33:02 Green to me. 15:33:11 that's if I ping you 15:33:18 or you changed color scheme 15:33:44 my yellow is actually easy to read 15:34:11 if you don't need to highlight this to read it, you probably have HexChat 15:34:30 yes I do 15:34:40 but can you read THIS? 15:34:42 I love HexChat because of these conveniences 15:37:49 http://i.imgur.com/dMppSnF.png 15:39:24 italic text: the new way to annoy people with pixel perfect fonts 15:39:32 yeah 15:39:57 ^ shorter and not-italic version for izabera: "Italic Text: Do not use it" 15:40:36 also, nice font 15:40:47 http://imgur.com/nPyVhOf 15:41:17 your color scheme is awful 15:41:25 whose? 15:41:28 yours 15:41:32 mine? 15:41:34 Ok, so Boily doesn't get italics, Izabera doesn't want them, and I'm capitalizing names and am probably going to be shouted at for it. 15:41:37 yes boily 15:41:53 it's Ubuntu's default and/or approximatively default colourscheme. 15:41:57 it's awful 15:42:05 Gamemanj: yeah fuck you 15:42:08 I like it ^^ 15:44:28 i can read the yellow text just fine incirssi 15:45:29 s/nci/n i/ 15:47:25 using incredibly specially formatted text, such as capital letters, quotes, numerics, italics, bold, underline, pixel art, ascii art, embedded message fonts, buffer allocation ctcps, shader execution ctcps, and other potentially performance and experience degrading symbols and mechanisms, is not a good idea. 15:51:26 shaders? for 2D monospace text? 15:51:42 boily: you actually read that? 15:53:44 (if you thought that was supposed to make sense, recall the bit about capital letters and quotes, then reconsider.) 15:57:34 it's text. it's meant to be read. if push come to shove, it'll make the quotes. or become fungot fodder. mwah ah ah ah. 15:57:35 boily: the two french initiatives intended to better combat illegal immigration and the trafficking of women is flourishing. in the irish constitution which, fortunately, has been ratified within a year? the commission is calling for more resources, more employees and more powers but, all this is related to the notorious ' small steps forward must be accepted in these discussions several rather abolitionist associations have tr 15:58:21 ...I wondered where that befunge-nomming quote-eating markovian madman went! 15:59:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:00:21 hellørjan. 16:04:09 bohily. 16:07:27 ohai 16:08:13 b_jellonas. 16:24:46 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:43:42 -!- iconmaster has joined. 16:44:05 -!- acertain has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:48:55 For email you could use your ISP smarthost for senting and to avoid the problem to be rejected by dynamic addresses; you can set a SMTP server to receive though 16:50:47 For me at least, receiving's fine. It's sending that's the problem. Question: What's an "ISP smarthost"? 16:53:12 At least if you set up Exim it will ask you to use a "smarthost" which means that you will send through your ISP's SMTP 16:54:23 Things I searched for involving mail relay by the ISP seem to revolve around business. 16:54:51 If I was a business, however, I wouldn't have any problems in the first place, as I'd have a static IP. 16:55:13 So it's basically useless. 16:56:03 but it's 3m-2s??? <-- where did you hear such a ridiculous thing twh 16:56:11 idk 16:56:30 or are you confusing with minkowski space. 16:56:36 yep 16:56:52 in which case it's not negative, but imaginary, and you don't add different coordinates like that. 16:58:20 you do something like sqrt((2s)^2 - (3m)^2) with some c's thrown in to make the units match. 16:58:36 *-something like 16:58:57 and the result is the time elapsed as experienced by the moving object. 16:59:12 (aka proper time) 16:59:33 gamemanj: Can't you have a email account by your ISP though? 16:59:34 -!- muimui has joined. 17:00:41 you can also do the same thing with energy and momentum, in which case you get the rest mass. 17:01:36 er, mass. 17:01:54 zzo38: Not that I know of, and besides, that would just be (accountname)@(theirdomain), not gamemanj@gamemanj.duckdns.org (TODO: maybe get .co.uk) 17:01:58 * oerjan swats himself for adding the redundant "rest" -----### 17:05:51 zzo38: Since it's on dynamic dns, and said dynamic DNS is pretty primitive (A record only. Not even IPv6...), I also don't get to change the MX record, and then there's making any workaround forwarding support SSL, so any forwarding would involve lots of stunnel and lots of prayer. 17:06:59 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:07:08 -!- Kaynato has joined. 17:07:21 You could set the return address to your own domain name and don't have to be the account from ISP 17:08:03 Although do you need SSL support with it? Probably it doesn't need; the message can be encrypted separately anyways 17:09:14 zzo38: Well, no requirement for SSL, but it's a nice bonus. Anyway, AFAIK there's no magical mail forwarding address I could send stuff to for bypassing the dynamic IP restriction, such a thing would be tantamount to an open relay anyway. 17:09:22 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:09:28 -!- muimui has left. 17:09:51 zzo38: It's only really a problem if interacting with Hotmail accounts. And since I haven't actually used the mail server for anything major yet, it's not really a problem. 17:10:09 At least in ISP I am using, there is a SMTP server which is only available when connected from within the ISP's network 17:11:03 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:11:05 zzo38: Yes, but the thing is, that SMTP server probably won't accept messages with arbitrary From: addresses. 17:12:05 For me it works, and even if it doesn't you could put the proper address in the MIME header instead 17:13:06 That's pretty close to an open relay. 17:13:18 I guess if it's within the ISP's network, they can track abuse, though. 17:13:49 Yes they could 17:14:18 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 17:17:16 -!- earendel has quit (Quit: earendel). 17:18:08 . o O ( some nori on the side, ajitsuke tamago, corn... *drool*... ) <-- . o O ( when will boily drop out of programming and start his own restaurant... ) 17:21:45 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 17:23:35 [Long quote, see above.] ajitsuke tamago [more quote] <-- . o O ( What's ajitsuke tamago? Is it a just-in-time version of some sort of programming language? ) 17:24:31 oerjan: seriously, I often think about having my own café when I go to sleep. a little bit too often. it's disturbing. 17:24:33 (Google Translate gives "Seasoned egg.", but I have a hunch it's not that simple, or boily would have just typed "Seasoned egg"... ) 17:24:35 aka "ramen egg", apparently. 17:24:40 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:25:05 boily: *MWAHAHAHA* 17:25:21 gamemanj: it's a half-boiled egg you soak in marinade. the Chinese have their variant tea-egg. both are quite similar. 17:26:00 boily: Thanks for informing me. Now I have proof my remote dream injection system works! I will make millions! 17:26:22 ...and then be forced to pay oerjan most of it in patent licencing fees. 17:26:29 boily: i smell a True Dream hth 17:28:13 I'll stick with my regular gig for the moment htah. 17:28:56 gamemanj: hey, stop ruining my spiritual coaching twh 17:29:11 Mwuhahahaha! 17:29:42 * boily thwacks gamemanj “you have to ask an accredited evil laugher first before cackling evilly” 17:30:13 You mean oerjan is an accredited evil laugher? 17:30:23 Or are you just discriminating on who you thwack? 17:30:34 i have a grandfather clause hth 17:31:15 Fine. I won't evilly laugh without oerjan's permission... 17:31:38 `echo Mwuhahah! Mwuhahahaha! 17:31:44 ...no? 17:31:53 :( 17:31:56 * oerjan winds HackEgo's crank 17:32:12 gamemanj: mwah ah ah ^^ 17:32:12 * gamemanj turns HackEgo's large and highly visible clockwork screw 17:32:27 Mwuhahah! Mwuhahahaha! 17:34:32 so far we have determined that HackEgo has a crank and a clockwork screw, and turning both made it/him/her/[this entry reserved for future expansion] work once. 17:37:01 -!- canaimito has joined. 17:37:48 -!- canaimito has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:40:19 fungot, does HackEgo really have and clockwork screw? I assumed it was a Frankenstein's Monster kind of screw instead. 17:40:19 b_jonas: mr president, many other people are more likely to paralyse growth and employment: improving quality and sustainability ( com(2000) 888 fnord/ 2001) 17:41:09 fungot, is that like http://www.xkcd.com/1007/ 17:41:10 b_jonas: madam president, if you will allow me, madam president, firstly i should like to close with a short quotation by george bernard shaw, who said to me: ‘i hear that you have suggested. 17:41:13 ... 17:41:24 Ok, what on earth happened to fungot!?!?! 17:41:25 gamemanj: mr president, mr rübig, half a million of our fellow citizens before the elections, it is 100 years since the soviet invasion saw a country that has traditionally opposed the big countries to have higher salaries? in its present form, where we hurried to apply measures concerning quality, traceability, market monitoring, the promotion and strengthening of controls. it would provide more adequate answers for europe. 17:41:42 I am not the President! 17:41:42 gamemanj: what do you maen? he seems all right to me. 17:41:47 at least as all right as he usually is 17:41:58 b_jonas: "mr president" this, "madam president" that 17:42:03 Is this the europarl corpus 17:42:15 fungot, lorem ipsum el dolor. 17:42:16 gamemanj: mr president, and mandela was and remains convinced of the importance of this service will soon be as many sign languages as there are still differences in the field to the programme: ' i know that the dialogue between the two sexes. it is then that we are making very good headway in research and development, the legal basis before implementing any community expenditure. as your rapporteur is of the opinion of the com 17:42:38 See? It's locked to stuff about a president. 17:43:47 gamemanj: have you not been introduced to ^style twh 17:43:51 ^style 17:43:51 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 17:43:56 ^style europarl 17:43:56 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 17:44:15 `? ^style 17:44:23 ​^style? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:44:23 `? europarl 17:44:25 europarl ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:44:33 ^lovecraft 17:44:36 fungot 17:44:37 gamemanj: mr president, having talked about bulgaria, which are not reliable. so what solutions do we have to make a start on the annual budget of the european parliament at the conference in kyoto, it may seem paradoxical to say the least. it was the wish to encourage, to continue to count on the expertise already available in the commission' s initiative to create jobs. 17:44:39 ... 17:44:46 ^style fungot 17:44:46 Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself) 17:44:57 ...I've confused myself now 17:45:15 What algorithm is behind fungot? 17:45:15 Kaynato: and, dab, words like pop-culture should use the binary level, then i say lo, world! 17:45:25 Kaynato: Think it's supposed to be based on markov chains 17:45:40 Hm, I suppose. char-rnn is always a pretty fun thing though 17:46:15 Good news is it's on GitHub. https://github.com/fis/fungot Just have fun trying to understand the code... 17:46:15 gamemanj: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there 17:48:01 Kaynato: variable length word-based markov chains 17:48:40 gamemanj, shrooms 17:49:03 (Strings written backwards, toggle switches, values placed on stack to be discarded at a conditional which I can't understand since I don't understand lunar runes inscribed upon tablets...) 17:49:19 (It's like BytePusher files in hex editors, but worse.) 17:51:25 (Huh. I started thinking I understood the general structure for a second. Then I saw the privmsg handling and realized only one thing - that I knew nothing.) 17:51:43 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:54:24 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:55:54 (After some reflection, I guess the code is nicer than the theoretically most complicated and evil Befunge code possible.) 18:03:21 What's wrong with backwards strings? Befunge can have strings in all four cardinal directions. 18:03:51 Some befunge variants can probably have strings with any delta. 18:04:03 Well, technically in terms of what is acceptable to a Befunge interpreter "wrong"? Nothing. In terms of what's sane, however... 18:17:33 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SKULL CHICKEN). 18:25:20 -!- tromp_ has joined. 18:30:27 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:32:04 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:44:53 the awkward moment when the alphago paper is written in word instead of latex 18:45:30 maybe people should just write papers in Markdown 18:46:11 that way, it's easily converted to whatever it's needed in 18:48:34 I just use Plain TeX and convert to DVI for printout 18:48:49 (Although troff can also output to DVI) 18:51:28 -!- evalj has joined. 18:52:28 \footline={\hfil Produced by Blah Corporation. \folio} Yay for Plain \TeX !\par It's very useful\footnote{$^1$}{If you know the commands.}! 18:52:46 (Note: The above is untested.) 18:53:16 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:57:24 izabera: you know, writing papers in word isn't such a stupid idea these days than it used to be ten years ago when people started to hate that kind of thing. especially not for non-maths papers. 18:59:14 izabera: part of the problem was always that the people who wrote papers in word were the kind of people who didn't know how to write papers in word either 18:59:22 (and that's still part of the problem) 19:00:55 very rarely, you can see really badly formatted papers written in LaTeX too. you know, ones with less than signs instead of angle brackets like < a|b + c >=< a|b > + < a|c > and even more horrible things that I can't even approximate in ascii 19:06:38 -!- p34k has joined. 19:08:43 -!- centrinia has joined. 19:16:18 [wiki] [[Brainfuck minus -]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46763 * Keymaker * (+12441) Showing that brainfuck is Turing-complete without '-'. Also includes a B-machine translator. 19:16:38 sounds like a trivial proof 19:16:52 replace - with 255 +, done 19:17:07 unbounded cells 19:17:12 ah 19:17:40 well, in this case translate your program into bounded bf first :p 19:18:22 it's not that trivial 19:18:58 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:18:59 ...turing-complete without '+'? doesn't that mean that for [ purposes, brainfuck memory is like PROM - write once, read always, but never write again... 19:19:42 [wiki] [[Brainfuck derivatives with nontrivial computational class proofs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46764&oldid=46698 * Keymaker * (+166) Linked BM-. 19:22:03 [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46765&oldid=46653 * Keymaker * (+157) Mentioned BM-. 19:23:07 Wang B-machine does not allow marks on the tape to be modified or erased once they are written, although it is possible to write additional marks on other positions on the tape 19:24:12 Yet it is still Turing-complete 19:24:51 zzo38: yes, but brainfuck is more restricted in its control structures 19:25:05 Yes 19:25:06 how is it important to have unbounded cells if you only set them to 1 19:25:45 myname: because you don't have convenient control structures to increase the cell only if it's not zero? 19:25:48 only if it's zero 19:25:50 um 19:26:31 hehe, “this is not a brainfuck derivative, this is merely a way for programming brainfuck without using '-'” – he's trying hard to rationalize it 19:27:08 myname: the point of using unbounded cells is that 255 + is basically just '-' anyway, so it's cheating. 19:27:55 gamemanj: um, modulo and unbounded aren't the only alternatives. there's also just raising an error if you go outside the range. 19:28:14 okay 19:29:04 [wiki] [[Wang program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46766&oldid=41258 * Keymaker * (+239) Linked BM-. 19:29:13 b_jonas: "The Brainfuck program that we use to control the dinosaur entry prevention mechanism is running...! ... BOUNDED CELL FAULT" would be a very evil ending to a book. 19:31:25 not more evil than "oh my got an overflow" 19:32:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:34:33 A note: if '+' is run only once for a given cell anyway, the code is probably valid Boolfuck too. 19:35:58 gamemanj: lol 19:36:57 ...and if you replace '+' with * it's also valid Smallfuck... 19:37:42 it may be valid in a lot of bf derivates 19:37:52 that's part of why they suck 19:38:20 every clear subset does not deserve the name derivate anyways 19:40:17 Huh. Apparently Smallfuck has limited data storage, though it doesn't actually say how much - it's implementation-dependent. So, nvm. 19:44:21 [wiki] [[Brainfuck derivatives with nontrivial computational class proofs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46767&oldid=46764 * Keymaker * (+25) Mentioned non-wrapping cells. 19:50:33 I just read the topic and saw the "kitten typesetting" line... and how exactly does one typeset a kitten? 19:51:42 You load kittens into a typewriter, destroying both. 19:51:51 ...that's horrible. 19:52:06 Yes I know, and that is why you should not do that 19:52:58 -!- earendel has joined. 19:53:32 heh, gamemanj is like the third person who asks about kitten typesetting. it was well worth keeping it in the topic. 19:54:28 remember: when doing a /join, even if you knew what the topic was like from months ago, that's no excuse, read it again. 19:55:37 Because topics are abstract strings stored by an IRC server for goodness knows how long, and they can change when you're not looking. (And also when you are looking.) 19:56:47 That is, they're not carved into stones delivered upon to us by the Deities Of Esotericism. 19:57:15 So, they have a tendency to change, and thus, you should observe them. 20:00:10 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: gtg). 20:02:16 gamemanj: yeah. eg. it says California now. It used to say Budapest. 20:11:19 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 20:17:15 Hmm. Should I make a random and mostly unrelated comment about kittens or about typesetting? 20:19:10 Ugh 20:19:24 I'm trying to write a parser for a WS-sensitive language using PLY 20:19:37 gamemanj: If you want to do so? I don't know? 20:19:42 I'm honestly considering parsing the language in Node and sending it over to Python 20:20:08 zzo38: I was referring to "which of the two would be preferable" :) 20:20:31 I have no preferences 20:21:17 hppavilion[1]: I think it would probably be better to just use one or other, if possible, rather than having to write one program using both 20:21:39 zzo38: Yeah, but I don't know Node and PLY is a pain in the ass for this kind of language 20:22:03 I mean, I can't use Node proficiently 20:26:00 If you have the newest version of SmileBASIC, can you tell me if you can get it to work with QR codes and/or tape loading/saving? 20:26:07 -!- gremlins has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:26:16 -!- tromp_ has joined. 20:30:59 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:48:38 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:53:35 A friend had an idea: 20:53:35 http://i.imgur.com/gY5bRZC.png 21:01:43 -!- gamemanj has left ("a one-instruction cpu can't draw proportional text! the bard said verily. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/donotdelete_text.BytePusher"). 21:03:57 https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition 21:06:01 -!- augur has joined. 21:09:40 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:42:36 -!- p34k has quit. 21:48:44 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:55:06 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:57:45 -!- jaboja has joined. 22:25:07 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:25:56 [wiki] [[BF Joust]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46768&oldid=46505 * Iconmaster * (+4) fixed the link to my horrible GML creation 22:27:29 -!- tromp_ has joined. 22:31:33 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:41:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:41:46 -!- augur has joined. 22:52:44 -!- augur_ has joined. 22:52:57 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:52:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:58:41 Ugh, PEG is awful 23:06:13 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:06:16 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:18:57 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 23:19:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:21:03 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:21:09 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 23:21:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 23:23:09 @tell gamemanj Well, technically in terms of what is acceptable to a Befunge interpreter "wrong"? Nothing. In terms of what's sane, however... <-- afaiu backwards strings are common in befunge because it's simply the easiest to handle. 23:23:09 Consider it noted. 23:29:40 ah darn, box-256 got an update... need to fight urge to have a look... 23:31:47 -!- carado has joined. 23:32:43 Ugh, can't get nodejs to send the charset 23:34:54 int-e, did this update include linux support 23:35:03 still runs in wine 23:35:08 I suppose :P 23:35:20 anyway that's how I've been running it so far 23:35:23 oh the web player works on my system 23:35:26 never mind 23:36:38 still no means of thread discrimination :( 23:36:59 Is anyone here good with SWI-prolog? 23:37:05 Phantom_Hoover: does that surprise you? 23:37:37 well it was requested by myself and someone else at least, though in different ways 23:38:02 Kaynato: i've peeked at the manual once, does that count? :P 23:38:34 * oerjan may also have downloaded it, but never got to write anything of note. 23:38:38 Ah, I mean - I'm trying to solve a logic problem specifically with SWI-prolog, and I know the answer - however, Prolog is giving me the wrong answer even though I seem to be giving it the correct declarations 23:38:51 aha 23:38:58 pastebin? 23:39:08 Phantom_Hoover: I thought it hit a remarkably sweet spot if you treat it as a puzzle, with its crazy memory model and the vectored jump 23:39:15 are you using any fancy stuff 23:39:27 Let me show this: 23:40:00 int-e, that's fair enough but i was interested in it as an assembly programming toy 23:40:27 i said "pastebin" to discourage long pastes in channel hth 23:40:27 perhas you should just find a gpu to program ;) 23:41:05 put pasta tastes good 23:41:15 int-e: Oooh, I just had the idea for a Numpy-based CPPU 23:41:25 the jump vectoring was cute and all but i think programming this thing would be much richer if you could write single subroutines to be executed by different threads at once 23:41:34 hmm, funny typo... "perhas" 23:41:36 Instead of individual registers/memory locations, it has NxN arrays of some fixed size (maybe 4x4) 23:41:39 rather than trying to pack as many duplicate instructions in as possible 23:41:46 int-e: in theory. i had spaghetti carbonara today and i think the bacon was a bit sour. 23:41:58 ah pity 23:42:10 though I'd like to point out that this wasn't the pasta's fault, really 23:42:13 true. 23:42:33 There would be vectorized versions of all instructions 23:42:41 So to start a thread, you use VJMP 23:42:57 Which is a JMP to multiple locations, based on the matrix 23:43:01 Has that been done before? 23:43:11 Is that how threading usually works? 23:44:31 i'm gonna guess "no". 23:44:40 ...oh, actually I've fixed it 23:44:46 Kaynato: fancy 23:44:54 sort of... e.g. int pthread_create(pthread_t *thread, const pthread_attr_t *attr, void *(*start_routine) (void *), void *arg); <-- note the sart_routine argument. but also note the new stack. 23:45:04 hppavilion[1], threading irl is highly abstracted 23:45:19 hmm 23:45:29 Phantom_Hoover: How does it work on the CPU level? 23:45:30 no new stack there... I'm mixing something up here, sorry. 23:45:45 In terms of ASM/machine code, that is 23:46:03 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:46:05 uh 23:46:10 hppavilion[1], afaiu, partly through context switching on individual cores and partly through running each thread's code simultaneously on different cores 23:46:23 this is why it's so nondeterministic 23:46:24 Phantom_Hoover: Ah? 23:46:29 you just have n CPUs working concurrently; it's the OS's task to give them work to do, i.e. to schedule threads. 23:46:29 Makes sense 23:47:37 there's also interrupts to give the OS a chance to switch context from a thread... 23:47:59 um 23:48:18 * int-e is oversimplifying of course 23:48:56 oerjan, the OS handles the context switching and core assignment obv. 23:49:19 Phantom_Hoover: well yes, but there needs to be a basic mechanism for preempting a running thread 23:49:25 (unless you go all cooperative) 23:49:48 interrupts are just the way context switching is implemented, is what i'm saying 23:49:54 yeah 23:50:06 (the n there may change over the runtime of the system these days... and the CPUs may not even be equal... it's becoming messier and messier especially on mobile devices) 23:50:12 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how threading is implemented in linux on a syscall level... 23:50:58 -!- centrinia has joined. 23:51:11 hppavilion[1], the upshot is that threading doesn't have the direct relationship to multicore CPUs that you might at first think 23:52:01 if you have a bunch of threads in the same process the OS might decide to run them all on the one core, for instance 23:52:10 Phantom_Hoover: "One use of clone() is to implement threads..." ... the clone system call allows you to just specify a new stack and function to execute, without duplicating the rest of the process state 23:52:47 right 23:52:52 -!- Frooxius has joined. 23:54:33 Phantom_Hoover: so what else is there... futex for synchronisation, tgkill() for signaling threads ... now I'm wondering how threads die... 23:54:51 also heh, box256 inlines constant ADDs to a MOV 23:56:21 . o O ( they wander off to the thread graveyard ) 23:56:43 -!- acertain has joined. 23:59:05 god damn the sierpinski one makes me wish i had bitwise ops 2016-04-11: 00:00:02 Okay, there's an exit syscall. man 2 exit isn't too helpful about it on my system... 00:00:27 that kills the process iirc 00:01:04 i think _start eventually boils down to exit(main(argc, argv)) 00:01:11 no, there's exit_group for that. 00:02:08 "The function _exit() terminates the calling process[...]" 00:02:24 (libc function names do not always correspond to syscall names) 00:02:38 i'm looking at the syscall documentation 00:02:52 look under C library/kernel differences 00:03:49 i just looked closer at clone(2) and yeah, i guess since threads would be individual processes that'd only kill the current thread 00:11:36 hmm of course sierpinsky is perfect for 56 threads and 9 cycles... 00:13:35 ah the leaderboard is confused... the 0x05 should be lines of code 00:17:47 Apparently I was wrong and everything is actually more severely wrong now 00:17:54 Phantom_Hoover: The _Exit function doesn't actually map to the exit syscall, though. 00:18:26 pikhq, i was reading the man page for exit(2) 00:18:55 Ah, which mentions that. :) 00:19:35 Yeah, the kernel level notion of "process" is more "a schedulable entity" which may or may not map to a Unix "process". So you get a few weird things like that in the syscall layer. 00:20:53 Probably the worst thing is that setuid etc. is a *god damned pain* to do correctly, because there's not a way of telling Linux to do it atomically across all threads in a process. 00:21:07 http://pastebin.com/PnRYcK9L 00:21:13 For oerjan 00:24:32 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:24:55 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:31:16 Nevermind, I got it 00:31:46 yay 00:34:46 as claimed, 0x09 cycles sierpinski... http://sprunge.us/BEba 00:35:36 (hmm, I could save a thread...) 00:39:33 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:43:51 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 00:47:27 Ok, I did some thinking and came up with a more succinct language, https://notehub.org/mvig3. 00:47:37 Toughts? 00:52:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:53:26 I found a book describing the original IBM PC hardware including the full BIOS code, instruction set, and schematic diagrams. 00:55:31 int-e, it's this kind of shit that makes me hate THR!! 00:56:33 Phantom_Hoover: you must really loathe my 15 cycles checkerboard then :P 00:56:58 (0xf) 00:58:39 -!- centrinia has joined. 01:06:25 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 01:07:13 -!- earendel has joined. 01:07:56 Nice work on the Sierpinski int-e :-) 01:09:27 impomatic, that mario program is the kind of outrage that has provoked inquisitions 01:09:29 I wonder whether my 5 lines sierpinski is the same as yours... will find out in a moment... 01:10:31 it'll take almost 0x4000 cycles, ouch 01:14:42 int-e: 5 line Sierpinski 0x4FC cycles 01:25:14 okay, mine is 4 lines :) 01:26:14 what languagd? 01:26:48 quintopia, http://box-256.com/ 01:26:52 that box-256 thing 01:27:20 and with that odd LOC counting that ignores empty lines 01:27:41 though, hmm, that's not essential anymore... 01:28:01 -!- bb010g has joined. 01:28:58 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:30:34 http://sprunge.us/KDYB 01:33:16 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:33:51 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:33:53 Hmmm... I should've thought of that! 01:37:30 in fact, wth... I've spent enough time on this to put it on github... https://github.com/int-e/box256 01:42:34 Some of mine are on Github https://github.com/impomatic/BOX256 01:43:51 ah but at least our basic idea is the same :) 01:46:14 (though I somehow failed to make the forward iteration work) 01:56:00 lambda-11235: Individual token notes should have the tokens in monospace 01:57:46 hppavilion[1]: Token notes? 01:58:29 lambda-11235: Like "-> is right associative, so a -> b -> c = a -> (b -> c). a -> b always has type *." 01:58:34 -> and * should be monospaced 02:01:04 hppavilion[1]: Better? https://notehub.org/mvig3 02:02:06 lambda-11235: No; that's literally the exact same page, but I'm really just nitpicking 02:02:34 lambda-11235: If recursive functions are banned, and functions can only use their predecessor-defined functions, doesn't that make it a BSM? 02:03:30 hppavilion[1]: BSM? 02:03:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:03:46 lambda-11235: Bounded State Machine 02:03:57 lambda-11235: A TM with finite memory; FSM-complete 02:04:28 linear bounded automaton... how many names does this thing have? 02:08:28 hppavilion[1]: I don't think so. An FSM could loop forever. This language can't. 02:08:46 lambda-11235: Oh, right 02:08:58 int-e: I think I just used the wrong acronym 02:09:56 int-e: Also, for a finite string of length 3-5, 12355928 02:10:21 int-e: Would you like the complete list? 02:11:07 * int-e is not really paying attention 02:12:21 Recursive functions are banned to garauntee totality, a property of any typed lambda calculus that doesn't have the fix point function. 02:15:52 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:19:22 nonterminating functions can still be immensely more powerful than linear bounded. i recall we found previously that system F can implement goodstein sequences. 02:19:42 although this seemed like a different system - dependent but not polymorphic? 02:20:02 or wait, s/polymorphic/higher rank/ 02:21:08 (goodstein sequences, fwiw, cannot be proved to terminate in peano arithmetic) 02:21:16 er 02:21:24 s/nonterminating/terminating/, sheesh 02:22:30 was it impomatic who wrote that up in restricted haskell 02:22:44 Not me 02:22:52 oh. 02:23:06 hm who am i confusing you with 02:23:19 quintopia maybe 02:24:14 (haskell using rank-n extension but no recursion, so equivalent to system F) 02:27:54 int-e: There. I wrote a program to generate all possible names for a LBA 02:28:06 int-e: (of reasonable length) 02:28:11 When it finishes running, I'll pastebin it 02:29:00 * oerjan keeps getting the impression that google only knows a fraction of our logs 02:29:33 oerjan: BTW, do you remember who it was that made Predicate Nomic? 02:29:49 i found a relevant page, but not the haskell program 02:30:11 hppavilion[1]: the first time i remember seeing that name was yesterday. 02:31:30 * oerjan tries looking for just system f 02:33:20 impomatic: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/int-e/box256/master/four_squares_2/multi_0x0B :-) 02:34:35 @ask quintopia Are you the one who invented Predicate Nomic? 02:34:36 Consider it noted. 02:38:23 -!- tromp_ has joined. 02:59:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:00:41 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 03:07:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:43:30 impomatic: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/int-e/box256/master/checkerboard_2/multi_0x10 ... this time, 0x0F looks impossible, but perhaps there's a better way of dealing with the color swaps. 04:01:42 help. 04:01:45 how did I become a contributor to len 04:01:47 *lens 04:02:44 you probably made a categorical mistake. 04:04:24 coppro: You pointed them at the sun, and got burned. 04:04:51 oerjan: tdh 04:22:44 -!- XorSwap has joined. 04:44:23 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:59:17 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:04:45 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 05:09:03 -!- earendel has changed nick to jessi. 05:09:19 -!- jessi has changed nick to earendel. 05:14:42 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:17:59 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:20:08 What is best way to make up temporary files in a shell script? Is it possible to automatically delete once it is finish? 05:21:03 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:27:11 zzo38: Maybe if you opened a file descriptor and then unlinked the file. 05:27:27 I'm not sure how well that approach works for shell scripts. 05:32:01 Would it be possible to make up another program that will do the necessary stuff (given the process ID if necessary) and output the commands that can be use with eval or whatever? 05:33:07 -!- jessi has joined. 05:34:06 impomatic: it fit... https://raw.githubusercontent.com/int-e/box256/master/checkerboard_2/multi_0x0F 05:36:14 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:37:46 Product type yields tuples, but what exactly does quotient type yield? 05:39:39 trouble iiuc 05:46:18 lambda-11235: All functional languages seem a little contrived. What happens when you grow one? 05:46:33 oerjan: IIUC? 05:46:52 `? iiuc 05:47:27 iiuc i understand iiuc correctly. 05:48:14 oerjan: Ah 05:48:30 For "what a quotient type yields": that's tricky. 05:49:02 tswett: Assuming "yields" is not whatever high-level math word you think I meant 05:49:38 There's no such high-level math term, so I'm pretty sure I'm thinking the same thing you're thinking. 05:49:50 tswett: OK 05:49:57 @brain 05:49:58 It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. 05:50:21 tswett: For reference, sum types yield tagged unions and product types yield tuples 05:51:19 Right. Let's say that we're working in the category of... recursive sets, where the arrows are computable functions. 05:51:26 Exponents would then yield functions I suppose 05:51:43 Then yeah. Tagged unions are an implementation of sum types, and tuples are an implementation of product types. 05:51:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:52:09 Sum types and product types are category theoretic duals to each other. 05:52:20 Likewise, subset types and quotient types are category theoretic duals to each other. 05:52:44 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:53:00 Subset types can be implemented by just dropping the values that are outside the subset. 05:53:16 generator functions in js yield valiues..like compute and spawn the next element of a determined series 05:53:23 is it similar 05:53:55 earendel: no, not really. 05:54:00 one of more functional aspects in js. 05:54:03 okay then. 05:54:20 nice word though. 05:54:23 That is true of JavaScript although it is not related to what hppavilion[1] and tswett was talking about 05:54:44 sum types yield tuples 05:54:52 Yeah, generator functions like this are a pretty neat thing. 05:55:09 well.. maybe you're even wrong those generators are quite fancy stuff. 05:55:14 maybe not. 05:55:41 ah good. we have an agreement. 05:56:36 Monadic generators is also possible and I have written some JavaScript codes for doing such thing 05:56:49 hppavilion[1]: so here's a disappointing answer for you: often, quotient types can't be implemented. 05:56:59 hppavilion[1]: let me also give you an answer you'll be happier with. 05:57:34 Often, quotient types can be implemented by picking one particular element of each equivalence class, and using that to represent the corresponding element of the quotient type. 05:57:36 tswett: Damn xD 05:57:37 In other words... 05:57:52 Node.js does not implement the "return" method for generator objects although I made up my own implementation which seem to work in most cases and requires that the function just rethrows any exception it does not know 05:57:59 You can often implement a quotient type by having a function which converts all its inputs to some "normal form". 05:58:18 And if you do that, then the answer to your original question is... 05:58:22 Quotient types yield normal forms. 05:58:33 tswett: Oh, I suppose that makes sense; if x*y/y = x, then ((T, U)U = T, but 05:58:36 Whoops 05:59:13 tswett: Oh, I suppose that makes sense; if x*y/y = x, then {(T, U) `U} = T, but what's {T `U} if T isn't a tuple? 06:00:00 tswett: Oh, subset types would be difference types, wouldn't they? 06:00:11 Yeah, pretty much. 06:00:13 zzo38: return? useless in async code. also you can return values. but why not yield* them? 06:00:20 Now, quotients of sets are more general than quotients of numbers. 06:00:49 In general, the thing that you "quotient over" isn't another set; it's an equivalence relation. 06:01:22 earendel: Not all code will be asynchronous though anyways. But yes you can use return and yield and yield* inside of a function, just the method called "return" is not yet implemented 06:01:34 So if you have a set with 100 elements, doing a quotient could land you with any number of elements from 1 to 100 (inclusive). 06:01:44 hppavilion[1]: All languages are contrived. 06:02:13 Sometimes, you'll do a quotient where every equivalence class has the same number of elements. 06:02:23 *This* is the case that corresponds to quotients of numbers. 06:02:49 If you have a set with 100 elements, and you do a quotient such that every equivalence class contains exactly 5 elements, then you'll end up, at the end, with a set with 20 elements. 06:02:56 But with the monadic generator operations you can do such thing as .joinR() which replaces "return x" with "return yield*x" for example. 06:03:17 -!- infinitymaster has joined. 06:04:02 Hey everyone, I've been working on my English–Spanish blend some more. 06:04:23 I've finally managed to produce... about two words' worth of vocabulary. 06:04:27 esperanto? 06:04:34 well the tricky part is the generator "stops" the computation until next yield..allowing a nice form of memoization 06:05:05 @zzo38. anything else isn't even that world-moving. 06:05:05 Unknown command, try @list 06:05:07 I'm starting by blending Old English and Latin, and to start, I'm doing just the consonants. 06:05:22 Pretty much ignoring the vowels. 06:05:40 earendel: I am not sure what you meant. 06:06:09 I know what you say is true but I do not understand how it is related to 06:06:15 Most of the words I've come up with are kinda boring, because they're identical to either the Old English or the Latin. 06:06:42 There's one exception, which is the word for "brother". It is: 06:06:45 fr_þ_r 06:06:54 I'm sure you are all very impressed by this. 06:08:43 earendel: I do not understand what you mean by "anything else isn't even that world-moving" and what your point is by that, is what I meant. 06:08:54 nevermind.. i'm not able to express that in a formal way, and it's indeed not related to whatever you guys do here. it's a fun channel, since i never know what you're talking about. one of the last of these channels.. 06:09:10 so i silence myself again and listen here and then. 06:09:13 I've gotta sleep now. Night, everyone. 06:09:36 good night. 06:10:03 Here's a pretty esoteric thing 06:10:09 return^x y 06:10:31 Which is meaning what? 06:10:36 zzo38: Explaining 06:10:42 return^1 y is just return, of course 06:10:48 return^2 y returns from the caller 06:10:56 return^3 y returns from the caller's caller 06:10:58 etc. 06:11:11 O, OK 06:11:40 I think dc and INTERCAL both have something similar 06:11:48 zzo38: Of course they do 06:12:51 Tcl does too. 06:13:03 (Such thing could also be implemented in some Forth systems probably) 06:13:18 return -level 2 x returns from the caller, for example. 06:13:42 what happens if you give it a negative level 06:15:01 I would also thought of a strange kind of JavaScript where you can write such thing as "arguments.caller.caller.return(x)" 06:15:14 Don't know. 06:16:31 pikhq: how're things over at pooch hq 06:19:53 * Sgeo wouldn't be surprised if that's how Tcl worked 06:20:25 -!- jessi has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:25:05 Another idea is evasive exceptions, such as if it is implemented extending JavaScript then a label name might be a constant local to the function, the label is itself a function which throws an evasive exception and the function containing that label catches it at the point where the label is (it cannot be caught by "catch" blocks, although "finally" blocks still work) 06:26:45 So it is like a "goto" command but is a bit more generalized 06:49:04 shachaf: It returns from a callee 06:49:24 I wrote a chdir executable for Linux once. 06:49:46 shachaf: return^-1 x returns x from the current function's callee 06:50:12 shachaf: Upside-down call stack: Every function has 0..infinity callers and 1 callee 06:50:41 Better yet, 0..infinity callers AND callees 06:51:23 zzo38: It's a sort of functional version of COMPUTED goto, I suppose 06:52:31 hppavilion[1]: Yes it is 06:53:25 -!- tromp_ has joined. 06:54:02 -!- infinitymaster has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:55:15 zzo38: Any other types of GOTO to functionalize? 06:55:59 I don't know 06:57:33 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:59:37 -!- Grenlo has joined. 07:00:41 Bump? 07:01:46 -!- infinitymaster has joined. 07:01:52 Bumping what? 07:02:45 I don't know, I wasn't sure if people were lurking about here. 07:02:53 Grenlo: Are you trying to kick this channel into gear? 07:02:58 Grenlo: We're already a working channel 07:03:03 Grenlo: Just quiet ATM 07:03:56 Mm what are you working on? *Braces himself* 07:03:59 There are people on this channel. You can ask the question if you have something to write please 07:04:04 Otherwise you do not have to. 07:05:02 I work on many things, currently on some utilities for farbfeld 07:05:05 So https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiichi_Goto was a person 07:05:24 Mostly I just work on random bullshit, really. 07:05:31 Grenlo: A discussion you just missed was about a functional computed GOTO statement 07:05:37 Grenlo: call/cc is the functional GOTO 07:06:09 What kind of random bullshit? 07:07:04 zzo38: He uses an octuple-blind process to randomly sample male cow excrement from farms around the world, which he then studies 07:07:18 Precisely. 07:07:22 OK 07:07:31 It's great research for my upcoming esolang, Cowpie. 07:09:16 pikhq: A much-anticipated development in the Esolang industry 07:11:01 Perhaps I would gain at least some understanding of functional programming by listening in here. 07:11:08 Grenlo: Perhaps 07:11:44 I suppose to an esoteric-ish extent. 07:12:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:12:29 -!- Grenlo has left. 07:17:41 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 07:18:45 zzo38: I wonder if a usable typesys could be implemented with return^n 07:19:19 I don't know 07:25:44 -!- rdococ has joined. 07:32:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:35:03 -!- infinitymaster has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 07:39:03 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:35:37 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:48:13 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:53:50 -!- tromp_ has joined. 08:58:10 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:06:40 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:18:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:32:30 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:50:05 -!- jaboja64 has joined. 09:51:05 -!- jaboja has quit (Disconnected by services). 09:51:52 -!- jaboja64 has changed nick to jaboja. 10:18:23 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:18:01 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:25:29 -!- boily has joined. 11:35:58 @metar CYUL 11:35:58 CYUL 111000Z 11010G15KT 1 1/2SM -SN SCT007 OVC020 M01/M02 A3005 RMK SF3NS5 /S02/ SLP178 11:36:20 @metar KOAK 11:36:20 KOAK 110953Z 25007KT 10SM OVC020 13/09 A3002 RMK AO2 SLP165 T01330094 PNO $ 11:36:29 * boily glares at the shachafweather 11:47:00 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:55:28 -!- tromp_ has joined. 11:59:20 -!- jaboja has joined. 11:59:52 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:19:36 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PETROLEUM CHICKEN). 12:22:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:28:30 In git, is there a command to reset/merge a branch without checking it out first but in such a way that it only works if it's a fast-forward? 12:28:34 Hello, ais523 12:28:42 hi 12:29:02 b_jonas: also, the only such command I can think of is push 12:29:11 and you'd need to do it from a different repo 12:55:41 hmm 12:57:16 git branch can reset a branch without checking it out, but it doesn't offer a check for fast forward 12:58:11 or maybe it does? I dunno 13:13:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:20:22 -!- spiette has joined. 13:34:25 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:45:41 [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46769&oldid=46491 * Primo * (+600) /* Shortest known "hello world" program. */ 13:49:16 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:50:12 -!- Kaynato has joined. 13:56:59 -!- tromp_ has joined. 14:01:23 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:14:03 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:19:19 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:38:58 -!- nycs has joined. 14:50:25 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 14:58:10 -!- impomatic_ has joined. 14:58:20 -!- tromp_ has joined. 15:00:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:03:02 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:22:53 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:27:54 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:34:42 I need to choose my final year project... 15:34:50 Two I'm tempted by are basically esolanging, it seems 15:36:07 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 15:36:36 (functional programming with orderings and equivalences; and a proof assistant for a graph programming language) 15:47:53 Tanello 15:49:22 b_jonas: do you have any insights as to my path forwards? 16:07:34 -!- rdococ has joined. 16:08:41 -!- Kaynato has joined. 16:08:55 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:11:56 -!- gamemanj has joined. 16:17:45 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:24:21 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:24:44 -!- rdococ has joined. 16:59:16 -!- zadock has joined. 16:59:29 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:01:58 -!- Reece` has joined. 17:03:01 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 17:08:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: buying food). 17:24:26 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:29:43 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:31:13 argh, I'm getting malloc crashes. something's going very wrong here. 17:32:01 potential(ly impractical) solution: "Who uses malloc? Static allocation is The Future!" 17:32:38 -!- Kaynato has joined. 17:33:36 probably heap corruption 17:34:12 does valgrind help? 17:34:22 gamemanj: I'm not sure that's how it works... 17:34:35 int-e: I know, it's a joke :) 17:34:41 -!- `^_^ has joined. 17:34:45 gamemanj: managed heaps are a more likely candidate... and being used quite successfully I might say 17:34:46 Heap corruption is actually a benefit, because it means the code is writing to addresses you won't be using in your program, so it's at least theoretically tracable. 17:36:09 hmm, is the allocator a strange enough machine that it's TC with a carefully crafted heap? 17:36:13 -!- nycs has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 17:36:23 (very C library specific question, obviously) 17:36:33 That much depends on your allocator and how insane the writer of the heap was. 17:36:52 Managed heaps are even weirder since I've heard they allow memory to be moved. 17:40:01 they might. it's beneficial for avoiding fragmentation and speeding up allocation 17:42:32 -!- p34k has joined. 17:46:16 Hmm. Maybe there's a solution in this to the old problem of "how to specify the exact alignment, permissions and other requirements for a block of memory" 17:46:47 An allocator that requires supplying it with a block of bytecode to determine a good address. 17:49:50 Now, the bytecode will use relative addressing for instructions. The bytecode will also use a randomly chosen* set of instruction IDs: 91, 93, 43, 45, 60, 62. 17:51:59 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:52:21 ah I knew it wasn't my own idea.... the term is "weird machine". http://langsec.org/papers/Bratus.pdf uses an allocator as an example. 17:52:34 what? no, you don't need fancy bytecode, you only need about four integer parameters and a ton of flags for a memory allocation 17:52:50 (no details) 17:53:39 b_jonas: ...I think you may be missing the point. Notice my odd choice of instruction IDs... 17:54:24 um 17:54:32 I don't see anything interesting about those ids 17:55:11 `lua -e "print(string.char(91))" 17:55:17 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:55:31 lua: (command line):1: unexpected symbol near '"print(string.char(91))"' 17:55:54 gamemanj: try without the quotes 18:02:28 ironically, when I tested it in a command line, I tried without the quotes first. 18:02:33 `lua print(string.char(91)) 18:02:42 lua: cannot open print(string.char(91)): No such file or directory 18:02:46 `lua -e print(string.char(91)) 18:02:48 ​[ 18:03:01 gamemanj: yes, like that 18:03:20 The point being, of course, that the "bytecode" is Brainfuck. 18:09:02 -!- centrinia has joined. 18:12:38 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:12:54 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:16:02 -!- lambdabot has joined. 18:18:43 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:23:10 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:24:00 -!- Elronnd has quit (Quit: Let's jump!). 18:25:30 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:26:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:27:52 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:27:58 -!- Elronnd has joined. 18:31:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:32:33 -!- Elronnd has quit (Client Quit). 18:35:10 -!- erdic has joined. 18:35:14 @tell boily One day last week it was 30 degrees here. 18:35:26 lackdabot 18:35:55 -!- Elronnd has joined. 18:39:24 -!- lambdabot has joined. 18:41:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:41:18 -!- augur has joined. 18:46:10 -!- Kaynato has joined. 18:47:54 -!- Frooxius has joined. 18:55:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:58:05 fungot: You're a clever bot, why can't you support note-sending? 18:58:05 fizzie: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp 18:58:20 fungot: I see you're up to your old tricks. 18:58:20 fizzie: that is just a value of type is created containing the syntax for mark if he was really gonna get worse and worse each week, 18:59:12 -!- Kaynato has joined. 18:59:56 -!- tromp_ has joined. 19:01:05 huh, fungot is mimicking itself? 19:01:06 ais523: if that is not used commonly and carries with it an array subscript was too easy heh one time i figured if it's possible. 19:01:08 ^style 19:01:08 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 19:01:12 ah yes 19:01:42 fizzie: feature idea: ^style random 19:04:12 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:05:57 -!- gremlins has joined. 19:07:14 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:09:11 fizzie: feature idea: a 64Kb permanent store and command to define a command in brainfuck + extras that can access it (as a "second tape"), and can call other commands. That way, if someone gives you an implementable feature request, you can just point them at that meta-command. 19:12:09 (There are loads of problems with this idea, specifically that someone, someday, would wipe the permanent store - but if only a specific group of people could access it, and they had a standard for data storage, plus a simulator to make sure it doesn't crash?) 19:13:27 gamemanj: err, ^def already exists 19:13:32 ^help 19:13:32 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 19:14:02 ... 19:14:04 ^def exampleforgamemanj ul (here's an example for gamemanj)S 19:14:04 Defined. 19:14:08 ^exampleforgamemanj 19:14:08 here's an example for gamemanj 19:14:10 you have got to be kidding me. 19:14:33 that said each defined command is self-contained, and doesn't have permanent storage (yet) 19:14:42 wouldn't be too hard to implement the permastore though 19:14:55 (note also that defined commands are temporary unless fizzie makes them permanent) 19:15:01 ^def exampleforgamemanj 19:15:01 Usage: ^def 19:15:04 ^def exampleforgamemanj bf 19:15:04 Usage: ^def 19:15:09 hmm, how do you delete these things? 19:15:12 ^undef exampleforgamemanj 19:15:19 ^exampleforgamemanj 19:15:19 here's an example for gamemanj 19:15:22 meh, it'll disappear at the next reboot 19:15:29 ^def exampleforgamemanj bf +[] 19:15:29 Defined. 19:15:30 there 19:15:34 now it won't do anything 19:15:46 why did you define it to an infinite loop? 19:15:49 ^exampleforgamemanj 19:15:53 ...out of time! 19:15:53 that normally gives an error message after a while 19:16:00 ^def exampleforgamemanj + 19:16:00 Usage: ^def 19:16:03 ^def exampleforgamemanj bf + 19:16:03 Defined. 19:16:07 that would make a lot more sense 19:16:07 yay! 19:16:27 ^exampleforgamemanj 19:16:47 huh, I was thinking that the program returning normally would cause it to output something like "no output". 19:16:54 HackEgo does that 19:17:02 ^cat /dev/null 19:17:04 err 19:17:07 `cat /dev/null 19:17:17 No output. 19:17:18 although it takes a while to react if it hasn't been used recently 19:18:00 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:18:01 /dev/null probably wasn't in the cache 19:18:26 `` while true; do true; done 19:18:38 I think infinite loops give no output in HackEgo, not sure though 19:18:57 busy trying to implement ^cat /dev/null 19:18:59 No output. 19:19:24 oh, hmm, that's an interesting reaction 19:19:28 `` sleep 4; echo test 19:19:35 test 19:19:40 `` sleep 10; echo test 19:19:52 test 19:20:13 `` sleep 20; echo test 19:20:33 test 19:20:49 `` x=1; while true; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done 19:21:20 No output. 19:21:33 -!- Elronnd has quit (Quit: Let's jump!). 19:21:44 I'm guessing the no output is because it produces no output if it times out? 19:21:57 `` x=1; while [ $x -lt 20 ] ; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done 19:22:17 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19 19:22:27 `` x=1; while [ $x -lt 60 ] ; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done 19:22:58 No output. 19:23:30 `` x=1; while [ $x -lt 50 ] ; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done 19:24:03 No output. 19:24:21 `` x=1; while [ $x -lt 40 ] ; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done 19:24:24 -!- Elronnd has joined. 19:24:36 documenting brainfuck code is hard "at 0 if mem0 not 0 then decrement mem2 and zero mem0" 19:24:52 No output. 19:25:01 `` x=1; while [ $x -lt 30 ] ; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done 19:25:32 No output. 19:25:44 `` x=1; while [ $x -lt 29 ] ; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done 19:26:14 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19 \ 20 \ 21 \ 22 \ 23 \ 24 \ 25 \ 26 \ 27 \ 28 19:26:30 aha 19:26:58 `` stdbuf -o0 echo test; while true; do true; done 19:27:29 No output. 19:28:01 `` stdbuf -o0 echo test 19:28:04 test 19:28:21 hmm, what if no shell is involved 19:28:29 `mkx 19:28:31 usage: mk[x] file//contents 19:29:51 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 19:30:36 -!- Reece` has joined. 19:30:42 ^def cat-experiment-gamemanj bf +++++++++[>+++++<-]>++<,>[<->-]>+<<[>>-<<[-]]>>[>+++++++++++[->++++++<]>++++++++++++.+++++++.--------..++++++.-.----.+++++.-.[-]<<[-]] 19:30:42 Defined. 19:30:51 ^cat-experiment-gamemanj this will have no output 19:30:55 ^cat-experiment-gamemanj /dev/null 19:30:55 NUMMSRNSR 19:31:05 Huh, I messed up something. 19:31:33 -!- gremlins has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:31:46 gamemanj: it might help if your , was in a loop 19:31:52 if you're trying to read more than one character of input 19:32:52 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:32:56 actually that's deliberate - trying to match the whole of /dev/null would be hard 19:33:01 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 19:33:03 it's the output routine that's having problems 19:33:10 it's supposed to say NOOUTPUT 19:33:18 but it seems I messed up 19:37:24 ^def cat-experiment-gamemanj bf +++++++++[>+++++<-]>++<,>[<->-]>+<<[>>-<<[-]]>>[>+++++++++++[->++++++>+++<<]>++++++++++++.+.>-.<.++++++.-.----.+++++.-.[-]>[-]<<<[-]] 19:37:24 Defined. 19:37:27 ^cat-experiment-gamemanj /dev/null 19:37:27 NO OUTPUT 19:40:31 now to check if someone already did this 19:40:34 ^cat /dev/null 19:41:00 ^show cat 19:41:25 ^show cat-experiment-gamemanj 19:41:25 +9[>+5<-]>+2<,>[<->-]>+<2[>2-<2[-]]>2[>+11[->+6>+3<2]>+12.+.>-.<.+6.-.-4.+5.-.[-]>[-]<3[-]] 19:42:08 -!- Kaynato has joined. 19:42:26 ok, so cat isn't defined. If anyone wants ^cat /dev/null to show "NO OUTPUT", ^def the above :) 19:45:52 -!- impomatic__ has joined. 19:46:04 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk). 19:47:27 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:47:41 -!- impomatic__ has changed nick to impomatic. 19:47:57 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:49:56 @tell boily One day last week it was 30 degrees here. 19:49:57 Consider it noted. 20:00:26 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:01:36 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:05:31 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:11:37 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:17:45 -!- Elronnd has quit (Quit: Let's jump!). 20:19:09 -!- Elronnd has joined. 20:29:11 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 20:29:25 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 20:37:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:41:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 20:47:23 -!- Kaynato has joined. 20:48:48 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:53:21 -!- lambdabot has joined. 21:14:25 -!- iconmaster has joined. 21:15:02 -!- Digby has joined. 21:19:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:27:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:28:12 -!- Digby has left ("Leaving"). 21:58:28 `smlist 435 21:58:38 smlist 435: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy 21:58:48 sm? 21:59:52 super mega 22:00:01 `? smlist 22:00:04 Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega. 22:00:10 http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=435 22:00:14 kickstarter announcement 22:00:19 this is p. exciting 22:00:26 nobody else on that list is still in the channel shachaf 22:00:40 yes 22:00:45 but people might still be interested 22:01:08 how are people going to know about the super mega update service if it's never used 22:02:26 On that note 22:02:28 `slist 22:02:31 slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 22:02:37 wait what's s 22:02:42 homestuck 22:02:44 `? slist 22:02:45 was that homestuck...? 22:02:45 Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck. 22:02:50 oh jesus 22:02:51 Taneb: did you ever `list 22:02:55 shachaf: yes 22:02:59 `list 22:03:00 is it finished yet 22:03:10 Phantom_Hoover: will be on Wednesday 22:03:15 `enlist 22:03:16 Taneb: You're the only person on that list in this channel. 22:03:27 Taneb, fuckin finally 22:03:29 shachaf: yes but I'm four of them 22:03:33 hppavilion[1] b_jonas boily a`a`a`a`jo7as a`a`a`a`jo8as a`a`a`a`jo3as a`a`a`a`jo6as a`a`a`a`jo5as a`a`a`a`jo4as a`a`a`a`jo2as a`a`a`a`jo1as a`a`a`a`jonas0 a`a`a`a lambdabot chicken_jonas myname 22:03:34 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: enlist: not found 22:03:46 int-e: ... 22:03:59 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:04:17 wtf does `list do 22:04:38 int-e: do it again 22:04:41 int-e: Try it again and you'll see. 22:04:42 you will see 22:06:04 is he scared? 22:06:15 no, I read the source code... 22:06:22 ...apparently I should've done this first :P 22:06:22 :D 22:06:30 int-e: Well, it's too late now. 22:06:38 You might as well `list to see it in action. 22:06:46 don't you like highlights? 22:07:18 `` sed -i 's/..xargs/| grep -v int-e | xargs/' bin/list 22:07:20 No output. 22:07:39 you are lame 22:09:16 `? shuf 22:09:19 shuf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:09:23 err 22:09:27 `shuf 22:09:58 No output. 22:10:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:10:17 fine... 22:10:19 `revert 22:10:30 rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done. 22:10:46 `` sed =i 's/..xargs/| shuf | xargs/' bin/list 22:10:51 sed: -e expression #1, char 2: extra characters after command 22:11:13 why shuf? 22:11:25 `` sed -i 's/..xargs/| shuf | xargs/' bin/list 22:11:27 No output. 22:11:31 for fairness :P 22:12:15 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:12:15 Fairness isn't right. 22:12:23 It's supposed to be sorted by most recent modifiers. 22:12:40 well it's going to be one of thise versions 22:13:05 b_jonas sabotaged the list with a bunch of spurious entries. 22:14:20 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 22:15:51 -!- earendel has joined. 22:17:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:19:06 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:20:24 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:27:57 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:28:16 hmm, actually 22:28:34 `revert 22:28:35 rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done. 22:28:45 I think it doesn't even hilight people anymore 22:28:52 -!- `^_^ has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:29:02 `list 22:29:07 `cat bin/list 22:29:36 int-e hppavilion[1] b_jonas boily a`a`a`a`jo7as a`a`a`a`jo8as a`a`a`a`jo3as a`a`a`a`jo6as a`a`a`a`jo5as a`a`a`a`jo4as a`a`a`a`jo2as a`a`a`a`jo1as a`a`a`a`jonas0 a`a`a`a lambdabot chicken_jonas myname 22:29:37 date > share/conscripts; culprits share/conscripts | xargs -n 1 | awk '!x[$0]++' | xargs 22:30:01 yep it doesn't. 22:30:50 yeah... and I still haven't written that new noping filter I promised 22:34:57 `? mopiing 22:34:58 mopiing? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:34:59 `? moping 22:34:59 moping? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:35:25 huh, did Phantom_Hoover just join the new `list for the first time? 22:36:13 `list 22:36:18 Phantom_Hoover int-e hppavilion[1] b_jonas boily a`a`a`a`jo7as a`a`a`a`jo8as a`a`a`a`jo3as a`a`a`a`jo6as a`a`a`a`jo5as a`a`a`a`jo4as a`a`a`a`jo2as a`a`a`a`jo1as a`a`a`a`jonas0 a`a`a`a lambdabot chicken_jonas myname 22:36:23 ais523, looks like it 22:36:44 that's rare 22:36:56 also b_jonas is on there a lot 22:37:31 ais523: yeah, I started to put a lot when I thought it was alphabetized 22:37:58 -!- haavard_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:38:01 ais523: but it's sorted latest first, so there's no point adding lots of entries until after I want to remove an entry 22:38:04 you were trying to push yourself past 512 characters? 22:38:15 how devious 22:38:21 this really subverts the `list's purpose 22:38:31 ais523: sort of. I was never on the list as b_jonas, but I was trying to make it so that I couldn't get on it 22:38:35 insomuch as it has one at all 22:38:39 since the list would consist only of names starting with a 22:38:40 -!- haavard has joined. 22:39:02 then when you realised the sorting rules, you added yourself so that over time you'd fall off the end? 22:39:34 ais523: no, I didn't add myself, and I think that doesn't help, because I think it's sorted by last appearance descending 22:39:46 so it's a queue and every time you list you move on the head 22:39:55 ah right 22:39:59 that's an even better sorting rule 22:40:01 but I'm not sure that's how it works 22:40:05 even if it's accidental, I like it 22:40:07 -!- ais523 has quit. 22:40:16 ``` cat bin/culprits-ng 22:40:17 ​#!/bin/sh \ exec hg log -l 512 --template "{desc}\0" -- "$@" | perl -0ne '/^<([^>]*)>/ and print"$1 "' 22:40:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:40:25 ``` cat bin/culprits-ng 22:40:26 ``` cat bin/culprits 22:40:26 ​#!/bin/sh \ exec hg log -l 512 --template "{desc}\0" -- "$@" | perl -0ne '/^<([^>]*)>/ and print"$1 "' 22:40:26 hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs 22:43:04 reminder: culprits-ng is disabled because I haven't implemented a noping filter yet 22:45:43 b_jonas: you canntest if you move to the front, you know ... 22:46:52 myname: I think I did test that with some of the numbered variants 22:47:17 but you can see it from the source too: culprits lists in order of date backwards, then that awk thing filters keeping the first instance of each name 22:47:41 myname: also, "chicken_jonas" appears on that list because the real b_jonas was too much of a chicken to list 22:47:59 lol 22:48:24 wasn't it obvious? 22:51:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:53:00 -!- boily has joined. 22:54:04 the real b_jonas is more chicken than chicken jonas? 22:54:58 olsner: sort of 22:55:16 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:56:17 hellolsner, b_jellonas. chickening? 22:56:39 quack 22:56:44 * boily premptives shachaf's unloud-massage. 22:56:47 @massages-loud 22:56:47 shachaf said 3h 6m 50s ago: One day last week it was 30 degrees here. 22:56:56 shachaf: hellochaf. AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! 22:57:11 b_jonas: quack. 22:57:20 boily: But now it's cold again. 22:57:22 @metar KOAK 22:57:22 KOAK 112153Z 27009KT 10SM FEW024 BKN045 18/09 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP195 T01830094 PNO 22:58:09 shachaf: bekekekech? 22:58:17 ? 22:58:35 @metar EGBB 22:58:36 EGBB 112150Z 22003KT 4200 BR BKN028 09/09 Q1005 22:58:39 fungot: quack 22:58:39 b_jonas: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins were in truth, and everything in readiness for fnord. under these is concerned, the use of " coup" here is one that only takes predicates and has not named a 22:58:42 Chorus of the Frogs from Aristophanes' play The Frogs 22:59:03 shachaf: it's +18. it's hot. 22:59:09 @metar CYUL 22:59:09 CYUL 112100Z 15012KT 10SM -RA FEW015 OVC020 06/05 A2983 RMK SF1SC7 SLP104 22:59:46 Aaaaah, my uni's weather station has a broken wind measurer thingy 22:59:59 anemometer? 23:00:28 hmm, EGBB is easy to remember as "England, Great Britain, Birmingham" even though it doesn't actually stand for that 23:00:38 Taneb: it's not broken. there's a terrible hurricane there right now. 23:00:56 Europe (part of), Gunited Kingdom, BBirmingham. 23:01:16 Britain gets hurricanes? 23:01:16 Taneb: Oh. I feel like I talked about that play in here recently but I don't remember the context. 23:01:29 boily: we did, once 23:01:35 Back in the 80's 23:01:38 It was very lost 23:01:42 -!- tromp_ has joined. 23:01:44 oh, "Europe, Great Britain, Birmingham" works even better because it's in the right order 23:02:03 even if it's still a little incorrect etymologically 23:03:10 I wish Bbirmingham was pronounced with a bilabial trill. 23:03:52 I'm not sure I /can/ pronounce a bilabial trill 23:04:11 I'm not even sure what one is 23:04:36 Taneb: you know how you say "b" by blowing outwards with your lips together, then letting your lips separate? 23:04:49 if you have your lips in the right position, you can separate them with the force of your breath 23:04:49 ais523: yeah? 23:05:04 Making a sort of brr sound? 23:05:08 /now/, if you blow at the right speed, they'll separate then come back together, and separate again 23:05:15 thus you get two b's in a row 23:05:17 that's a trill 23:06:03 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:06:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:06:17 I can *almost* do that, but not consistently 23:06:39 Taneb, it's blowing a raspberry with your lips basically? 23:08:18 exactly one raspberry 23:08:31 bbellørjan. 23:08:45 and then you somehow have to segue into "irmingham" without dropping a beat 23:09:14 It always comes out as prrirmingham for me 23:09:19 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 23:09:39 purrmingham 23:10:26 pbvbvbvbvbvrirngmingham... 23:10:31 A javascript framework that forces you to prove pages... 23:10:41 Basically, JavaScript+Coq 23:11:24 -!- earendel has joined. 23:11:34 I've wanted strongly typed LaTeX for a while 23:11:43 which could catch typos in formulas you write via the units on the two sides not being the same 23:12:27 ais523: um... there's strongly typed stuff that catches non-matching units, but I don't think it's LaTeX 23:12:40 right, I didn't think it /existed/ 23:12:41 I just wanted it 23:12:45 I typo formulas too often 23:12:46 sure 23:17:10 * oerjan is disappointed that this bbirmingham stuff wasn't how they actually pronounce it there 23:18:09 bøøily 23:21:49 bb_jonas 23:22:48 how do you say the "_"? 23:23:27 boily: I'm not sure, it's a screen name so I don't have to pronounce it 23:23:27 I had that problem too trying to pronounce it 23:23:30 I guess you just wait for a bt 23:23:32 *bit 23:23:45 but I usually pronounce it as béjónás 23:23:51 so there's a vowel between 23:24:05 I have now authored a piece of serious software whose source code includes the word "Coyoneda". What has come of my life? 23:24:25 heh 23:25:09 cobbrello. mwah ah ah. 23:26:03 I didn't know "Coyoneda" was a word at all 23:26:35 It's a little rude to dualize someone's name, don't you think? 23:26:41 Coyoneda is great, though. 23:27:04 coppro: If you don't want to include the word "Coyoneda" you can inline it. 23:27:09 Like Operational does. 23:28:19 oh, I didn't even parse it with a break after the first o 23:28:21 "co-Yoneda"? 23:28:29 that's how I normally see it spelled 23:29:17 It's a Haskell type in this case. 23:29:27 Coyoneda f a = exists x. (f x, x -> a) 23:30:33 wait 23:31:04 how do you know what coyoneda is in coppro's software? 23:31:40 these exists thingies always get me 23:32:09 why would it even use Haskell? 23:32:39 cause haskell is awesome 23:33:54 b_jonas: I've been seeing coppro's discussion of it in another channel. 23:34:05 Well, I haven't really been reading it in detail. 23:34:17 ah 23:34:47 but why would any serious software use haskell? 23:34:58 why not? 23:36:12 while we are at it: how do i do nested if then else in a do block without adding identation at every if 23:36:54 @google DoAndIfThenElse 23:36:55 https://prime.haskell.org/wiki/DoAndIfThenElse 23:37:01 shachaf: I could, yes. That would somewhat defeat the entire point though 23:37:28 which was to build the Operational instance of Zoom off of the Functor instance 23:38:18 zzo38: I wonder if a usable typesys could be implemented with return^n <-- you'd need the type of a function to include the return types of its callers... 23:38:24 so, as i guessed, you can't? 23:39:13 I don't know what you want to do. 23:39:47 > if 1 > 2 ; then 1 ; else if 2 > 3 ; then 2 ; else 3 23:39:48 3 23:39:58 myname: you can in ghc. 23:40:30 because you don't have to indent then or else. 23:40:58 interesting 23:41:00 well you have to start with "else if". 23:41:12 that might even be official haskell2010, not sure. 23:41:33 huh... how does that even parse? there shouldn't be semicolons there 23:42:06 b_jonas: the semicolons (optional) are what makes it work 23:42:18 (in haskell that is. in ruby semicolons would be allowed) 23:42:20 because they're equivalent to newlines. 23:42:45 oerjan: um... nah, I don't get it 23:43:03 that's just not how H syntax used to work 23:43:43 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1]. 23:44:01 -!- p34k has quit. 23:44:13 b_jonas: Right, that's why the Haskell Prime proposal I linked to above changed it. 23:44:26 but that's impossible! 23:44:55 meh, haskell syntax was screwed up a few times already 23:44:57 b_jonas: what's impossible about it? it's just a small change to the grammar. 23:45:25 them haskellers just have a very different idea about syntax from me 23:45:43 haters gonna hate 23:45:53 I should go and program C++ and Rust, those have syntax I like 23:46:42 b_jonas: Just write Haskell with {} and ; 23:46:49 Your life will be easy. 23:47:01 that's already how I write H 23:47:03 b_jonas: ok, it's official haskell 2010. 23:47:52 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CARRY CHICKEN). 23:58:28 meh, it'll disappear at the next reboot <-- i think that's the only way to get rid of them. 23:58:58 are there any languages which can be written with /just/ {};? 23:59:04 perhaps there are some DSLs inside IOCCC entries 23:59:14 which tend to use {};-based encodings a lot 23:59:26 due to an intentional exploit of the byte counter 23:59:39 huh? 2016-04-12: 00:05:58 "The number of octets excluding whitespace (tab, space, newline, formfeed, return), and excluding any ';', '{' or '}' followed by whitespace or end of file, must be <= 2048." 00:06:13 (presumably that's the 2001 version of the size rule) 00:06:25 strangely enough, people tend to screw around with {}; rather than the different types of legal whitespace 00:07:56 could you do a whitespace interpreter in 2 kb? 00:11:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:22:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:22:02 How about... a programming language with no form of multi-statement control flow 00:22:20 All code must be written as a series of one-liners (called "actions") 00:22:31 And once a one-liner completes, it cannot be executed again 00:22:39 (though events may be created) 00:23:13 that's either clearly non-TC or you'd end up doing everything in one statement 00:23:20 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, that's the point 00:23:52 Phantom_Hoover: You have to partial-vectorize over lazy lists and such to get anything to work 00:25:03 Phantom_Hoover: A program that runs forever, for example, is [put(x%128) for x in [0, 1...] if x%128 > 31] 00:26:16 Phantom_Hoover: Clearly a one-liner, but infinite. Specifically, it prints the printable ASCII characters over and over again in cycle (with a short delay between each, though it's only 31 ticks) 00:27:50 A truth machine is [print('1') for x in [...]] if (x := input()) = '1' else if x = '0' print('0') else fail 00:30:49 [print('$n bottles of beer on the wall\n$n bottles of beer\ntake one down, pass it around, \n'+str(n-1)+' bottles of beer on the wall!' for n in 99..0 if n not in [1, 0] else if n = 1 print('1 bottle of beer on the wall\n1 bottle of beer\ntake one down, pass it around, \nno more bottles of beer on the wall!' else if n = 0 print('no more bottles of beer on the wall\nno more bottles of beer!\nGo to the store, buy some more\n99 bottles of 00:30:49 beer on the wall!')] 00:39:09 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:39:13 -!- augur_ has joined. 00:39:15 -!- ais523 has quit. 00:42:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:43:45 -!- tromp_ has joined. 00:50:44 -!- AmiMoench has joined. 00:55:16 hello 00:55:49 hppavilion[1]: no 00:56:09 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:21:40 the morning after http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/nemi/ 01:24:03 * oerjan cannot be bothered to find a permalink 01:25:16 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:26:02 not that they're perma anyway on that site. 01:33:59 A mix of event-driven programming (node style, but with better syntax) and vectorized array programming would be pretty interesting 01:39:57 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:46:33 -!- centrinia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:57:23 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 02:08:55 -!- tromp_ has joined. 02:16:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:48:18 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:49:02 -!- Hazzitha has joined. 02:53:48 -!- Hazzitha has left. 03:01:52 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:05:38 -!- tromp_ has joined. 03:17:31 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 03:19:13 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 03:39:20 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 03:41:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:51:24 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:02:30 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:24:08 -!- bb010g has joined. 04:32:15 -!- mad has joined. 04:37:17 -!- tromp_ has joined. 04:38:19 -!- centrinia has joined. 04:49:35 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:12:22 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:17:48 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 05:19:38 -!- Vorpal has joined. 05:19:38 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 05:19:38 -!- Vorpal has joined. 05:23:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:33:22 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:45:45 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:50:07 -!- tromp_ has joined. 05:50:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:54:30 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:15:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:51:44 -!- tromp_ has joined. 06:54:23 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 06:55:58 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:56:11 -!- Frooxius has joined. 07:22:19 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:25:23 -!- nisstyre has joined. 07:25:27 -!- nisstyre has quit (Changing host). 07:25:27 -!- nisstyre has joined. 07:26:45 -!- rdococ has joined. 07:26:51 -!- rdococ_ has joined. 07:31:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:45:16 ASM seems to be optimized for procedural programming as its origin 07:46:23 You have a call stack onto which you PUSH your location before JMPing into a subroutine, and off of which you POP the location to return to via CJMP 07:56:54 -!- rdococ_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:05:08 asm is optimized for whatever you can run fast on a chip 08:06:46 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:16:05 -!- mad has quit (Quit: Pics or it didn't happen). 08:20:24 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:21:13 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:51:25 -!- tromp_ has joined. 08:55:47 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:26:22 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:38:48 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:54:08 -!- spiette has joined. 10:03:36 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:05:32 -!- ^v has joined. 10:44:16 -!- impomatic_ has joined. 10:45:27 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:45:34 -!- impomatic_ has changed nick to impomatic. 11:00:12 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 11:26:51 I've more or less decided what I'm going to do for my final year project 11:35:06 -!- boily has joined. 11:39:03 -!- jaboja has joined. 11:39:40 a blurred panel? has Unshelved ever done that except maybe for a Sunday strip? 11:39:47 Taneb: great, what? 11:39:56 what is it? 11:40:03 "Functional Programming with Equivalences and Orderings" 11:40:53 Making a Haskell library for dealing with relations 11:41:25 what, like dealing with my parents and grandparents? 11:41:55 Yes, that's exactly what I mean 11:41:59 Nothing to do with set theory at al 11:42:01 l 11:49:23 the parent relation is not transitive 11:50:10 Nor is it symmetric or reflexive 11:50:24 Unless you're a Homestuck character or something 11:58:54 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!). 12:21:02 -!- boily has quit (Quit: NETWORK CHICKEN). 12:22:11 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:23:11 -!- tromp_ has joined. 12:27:54 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:14:11 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:19:21 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:22:11 -!- Yurume has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 13:25:23 -!- Yurume has joined. 13:43:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:55:45 * zgrep just read that as "Making a Haskell library for dealing with religions." 13:58:51 That'd be a more involved project, and not one I'd be quite as comfortable doing 13:59:25 As a probably atheist of an otherwise exclusively Christian background 13:59:38 I don't know that many religions 14:01:57 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:15:18 Taneb: You could always make some. 14:15:36 Tried that onc 14:15:37 e 14:15:39 Got boring quickly 14:24:08 -!- tromp_ has joined. 14:28:36 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:44:04 -!- Kaynato has joined. 14:45:50 Crowdsourcing hth 14:52:30 -!- iconmaster has joined. 15:12:31 -!- `^_^ has joined. 15:13:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 15:14:22 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:21:25 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:25:15 -!- zadock has joined. 15:33:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:39:00 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:43:53 -!- earendel has joined. 15:48:09 -!- rdococ has joined. 16:10:30 groan http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4078 16:16:13 b_jonas: on the bright side, she's not a topologist 16:17:43 oerjan: she's still young, give him a few years 16:18:09 fungot, is dynamic_pointer_cast a member function of std::shared_ptr? or a non-member function? 16:18:09 b_jonas: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff 16:18:16 WHAT? 16:18:26 the standard library source code? NO WAY 16:18:47 it's ugly, full of underscores, and more importantly, I need to know what the SPEC says and what I can assume works everywhere. 16:19:20 listen, when fungot gives you advice this clear, don't you dare protest 16:19:20 oerjan: something like scheme48 ( upon the general position is a part of these amendments, i can only thank the president-in-office, you did hear me say that we have had in getting information with regard to monetary policy, a factor is 16:20:42 this clear, mister president-in-office 16:21:46 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:22:32 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:32:13 I've just sent someone a pull request because I disagreed with how he structured a library 16:32:21 I'm not sure if this is considered helpful or rude 16:36:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:36:33 But I tried to do it as well as I can, changing all the documentation and test suites accordingly 16:37:41 -!- Kaynato has joined. 16:42:47 > 32*0.65 16:42:48 20.8 16:43:08 oops, no 16:47:18 -!- Reece` has joined. 17:01:24 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 17:09:04 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:11:47 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:11:49 -!- gamemanj has joined. 17:15:53 -!- copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:18:45 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:22:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Scheduled downtime). 17:25:52 ^cat /dev/null 17:26:15 ^cat-experimental-gamemanj /dev/null 17:26:32 ^cat-experiment-gamemanj /dev/null 17:26:32 NO OUTPUT 17:38:06 b_jonas: [smbc] that's what you get for raising spherical cows! 17:39:40 (the button picture that comes with this strip is just boring) 17:41:51 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:47:51 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 17:57:58 -!- Kaynato has joined. 17:58:12 Is the joke with the tens about bases? 17:58:48 Or precision? 17:58:48 prooftechnique, it's about approximation 17:59:09 Wow, I misread that whole comic. 18:00:03 prooftechnique: your interpretation was off by several orders of magnitudes! 18:00:11 At least 18:00:34 s/des/de/ 18:03:48 Taneb: did you alse send an explanation for why the change is worth? 18:04:20 b_jonas, yes 18:04:38 gtg. have fun: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/donotdelete_nyan.BytePusher 18:04:40 Basically, it's a testing framework in Haskell along the lines of QuickCheck and smallcheck 18:04:42 -!- gamemanj has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:04:52 I moved everything from Test.Check to Test.LeanCheck 18:07:17 -!- XorSwap has joined. 18:08:33 Also, why a trebuchet rather than a crossbow? 18:08:41 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:09:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:09:12 b_jonas, trebuchets have a more obvious arc 18:12:27 -!- iconmaster has joined. 18:14:59 -!- centrinia has joined. 18:32:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:35:39 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:51:05 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:59:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:59:39 Do antimatter beings talk in the negative first person? 18:59:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Quite puzzling | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Istanbul (not Constantinople). 19:00:02 probably first unperson 19:00:28 olsner: No, that's what squirrels talk in 19:01:02 olsner: Is there a smooth transition over the reals between POVs? 19:01:09 olsner: For example, is there a 2.5th person? 19:08:11 How to make the To: address to be used as the From: address for a reply of a message with mailx? 19:11:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:12:15 -!- XorSwap has joined. 19:14:01 -!- XorSwap has quit (Client Quit). 19:15:15 -!- Greenlock has joined. 19:24:55 -!- Kaynato has joined. 19:26:58 -!- Greenlock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:32:39 -!- centrinia_ has joined. 19:42:55 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 19:45:12 -!- centrinia_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:47:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:52:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:53:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:54:03 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:56:45 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:06:50 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 20:06:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:08:11 is there any idiomatic way to default to a deriving(Show) in haskell for deugging purposes that does not require commenting out the whole instance? 20:13:42 What do you mean? 20:14:15 Like, your own Show instances? 20:14:18 like, i have data Foo = ... deriving (Eq); instance Show Foo where ... 20:14:43 now i want to derive show for foo instead of my instance to debug shit 20:15:07 What's wrong with deriving Show? 20:15:30 data Foo = ... deriving (Eq, Show) 20:15:54 it complains about duplicate definitions 20:16:04 Oh, I see what you're asking! 20:16:10 Sorry, took me a minute 20:16:27 You have a real show instance that you want to use in production, but you just want to use the default one for debugging 20:16:28 no big deal 20:16:57 yeah 20:17:18 -!- atrapado has joined. 20:19:02 Hmm. I guess you could write your Show instance for a wrapped variant of your type, though I guess that could get ugly 20:19:18 I actually don't know if there's a good way, other than that 20:19:32 Oh, or write a debug wrapper for your type, then derive Show on that 20:19:42 It's uglier, but only for debugging :) 20:20:04 You could even write some helper functions to handle wrapping and unwrapping 20:20:30 if i derive show on a debug wrapper, it will still use the instance of the wrapped class 20:20:47 Oh, duh. 20:25:27 On further thought, I don't think the open world assumption really works with that sort of use :( 20:25:46 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:26:50 Other than writing a separate class to replace your show instance (or something orthogonal like using trace), I think you'll have to comment things. 20:27:04 I guess you could #ifdef things, but that's a whole other thing 20:28:32 Or something like this? http://stackoverflow.com/a/28666200/794944 20:30:51 ah, that might work 20:31:09 That was more what I was getting at when I mentioned a wrapper, I think 20:31:20 I'm bad at words :| 20:32:16 ah 20:34:59 -!- Kaynato has joined. 20:42:58 -!- Greenlock has joined. 20:45:22 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:46:43 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 21:04:45 -!- Greenlock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:12:18 -!- gamemanj has joined. 21:20:19 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:22:53 What's the IRC abbreviation for "That is false", the same way "ofc" is the abbreviation for "That is true"? 21:22:58 Where "no" is not acceptable 21:23:08 no u 21:23:14 (because it pretty much as to be 3 letters) 21:23:18 (*has) 21:23:39 statements["gamemanj"].last.correct = false; 21:23:43 ...oh, 3 letters 21:24:04 I'm defining a logic for reasoning about justice. ⊥ is "Inconceivable!", ⊤ is "Well /duh/", and ∅ (which is neither true nor false) is "I dunno LOL" 21:24:35 (whatever you guys come up with, "Ofc", and "Idk", respectively) 21:24:36 ... where on earth did you get those letters? 21:24:46 I suppose "Nah" works 21:24:56 gamemanj: Which letters? 21:25:09 ⊥⊥⊥ The Spikes Of Doom, of course! 21:25:35 hppavilion[2]: smh? 21:25:50 smdh for "that is patently false" hth 21:25:58 gamemanj: Oh, those are logic symbols 21:26:06 -!- myname has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:26:16 -!- myname has joined. 21:26:33 ⊥ is sometimes called "The Absurdity" and represents a defined-to-be-false value (or, in type theory, the Void type) 21:26:43 -!- me2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:27:05 ⊤ is... well, I don't know the name, but it's unambiguously true (the "Unit" or "Top" type in type theory) 21:27:23 gamemanj: And ∅ is one I made up because I needed it for truth tables 21:27:39 Noted. To me ⊥ and ⊤ remind me of someone's way of writing ternary that I saw once... 21:28:10 Does justice admit a logic? 21:29:40 -!- me2 has joined. 21:38:40 hppavilion[2]: “What's the IRC abbreviation for "That is false",” => it's “no wai” 21:39:19 web application interface? 21:39:48 [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Extended truth-table demo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46770 * Hppavilion1 * (+579) Published 21:40:15 int-e: context? 21:40:27 b_jonas: "WAI" 21:41:37 * int-e just doesn't like these "cute" typos. 21:42:15 wut r u talking abt? 21:42:34 They're talking about the observation of cuteness and how it is not objective. 21:42:45 That's my best guess anyway. 21:43:34 Disagree: https://i.imgur.com/hK96rUd.jpg 21:50:33 [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Extended truth-table demo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46771&oldid=46770 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Formatting 21:51:00 [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Extended truth-table demo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46772&oldid=46771 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) Formatting again (used preview this time) 21:51:58 gamemanj: There. That's what ∅ does in truth tables 21:52:26 [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Extended truth-table demo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46773&oldid=46772 * Hppavilion1 * (-11) Editing cruft removed 21:58:38 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:01:54 zgrep: Hi 22:01:59 hppavilion[2]: Hi 22:02:31 zgrep: I'm considering designing a type of diagram for software that can be done in pure Unicode (or, in a pinch, pure typable ASCII) 22:05:26 zgrep: You know what I haven't seen yet that would be INCREDIBLY valuable for software? 22:05:55 (Certain types of software, at least) 22:06:03 bnf4ocr 22:07:09 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:12:46 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:13:45 Hm... 22:14:32 What would bnf4ocr be? Things like the MNIST default training set example from TensorFlow's page? :P 22:14:36 s/pa/homepa/ 22:22:20 -!- p34k has joined. 22:25:52 hppavilion[2]: uh... aren't there like a ton of diagram drawing software these days, because at one point there was too few and then everyone invented their own one? 22:26:47 Hehehe 22:31:24 b_jonas: Perhaps 22:31:44 b_jonas: bnf4ocr, on the other hand, would be AWESOME 22:31:57 zgrep: http://pastebin.com/CF2dVjBr 22:32:32 That's bnf4ocr. It's not really bnf at all, but it's inspired by it superficially. 22:32:37 zgrep: It's for parsing images, basically 22:34:08 zgrep: Reading the paste? 22:34:40 -!- Frooxius has joined. 22:36:21 -!- Greenlock has joined. 22:45:44 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:46:25 hppavilion[2]: Hold on, sorry. I'm translating stuff for people in another channel. 22:46:33 zgrep: Ah, OK 22:47:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:51:39 oerjan!\a 22:52:06 olsner: Is there a smooth transition over the reals between POVs? <-- not for humans hth 22:52:16 \a? 22:52:27 oerjan: bell? 22:53:00 in any case i don't have the bell on in irssi. 22:53:40 I'd try `printf \a but shachaf would be annoyed 22:53:52 indeed. 22:54:11 annoying shachaf is so easy it must be a monoid. 22:55:17 oerjan: not \aing in the channel is pretty standard irc etiquette hth 22:55:29 shachaf: i don't need \a to annoy you 22:55:43 lots of other characters work 22:56:01 -!- p34k has quit. 22:58:46 -!- `^_^ has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:59:43 just mentioning the name could easily do the trick 23:00:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 23:00:53 oh it's a bright new day... minus the bright 23:01:36 hppavilion[2]: i don't think ⊥ means what you think it means 23:01:39 * oerjan ducks 23:03:03 oerjan: you must be exaggerating 23:03:05 right? 23:03:17 shachaf: exaggerating what 23:03:43 `? exaggerating 23:03:46 exaggerating? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:03:57 * oerjan whistles innocently 23:04:03 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:05:05 oerjan: look 23:05:19 you're messing up my terminal 23:06:06 i was demonstrating hth 23:06:06 only slightly in this case 23:06:12 i know hth 23:06:43 http://slbkbs.org/oerjan-terminal.png 23:07:25 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:07:40 do you normally have no delimiters after nicks 23:07:48 shachaf, er, how 23:08:04 oerjan: they're just black-on-black 23:08:16 Phantom_Hoover: That overscore got copied down to the next line 23:08:37 what's wrong with your terminal 23:09:04 `? ngevd 23:09:05 ​‡ù«½–ô¡ÁœÃÔ_ZW&ä›1ÅÕƃû9¡lþkó·ÏºÝÔ^i¼±¦øWüЌ8Äòw¾"²ƒ£A¤À=èXÀÛR»fƒPãøüo˳7R›¡·§Q^U'ïgåù.t}Ç­{ \ ‹¦4Ç €ÏېmÒ:Zè$y±Edâ¿.\À‹žáŠ&ˆgؑnN>›{kT]ÞN¸ HLK \ é“Ætœ‰è“t+̺EFY \ ¥®ÒÌ­˜Õ1˜±m%$k³åkr)/=ž&rQEØ´¸´Îú—[äèžPÆ}.ádikÝÑ9kCpª#¡¬\ìèÜá÷šŽ B¶.5xš8Ð=ŒlÚÍoۄ4Äؼ‰õ4üï¿]œ¯’Ž’D`I4\Û¤¢„t+ù­‡…‹L¨ç-/?è=†¢Ùr¥3ìçjkk)+ 23:09:12 Thantom_Thoover 23:09:26 Actually that's not so bad. 23:09:28 i was resisting that hth 23:09:41 that's the urandom link? 23:09:43 ngevd is unlikely to generate valid UTF-8 code sequences 23:10:05 wtf is wrong with °​ 23:10:15 int-e, it's not actually a urandom link for dumb reasons 23:10:28 `ls -la wisdom/ngevd 23:10:29 ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information. 23:10:33 `` ls -la wisdom/ngevd 23:10:34 int-e: it's not the °​ but the invisible space after it 23:10:38 ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 215 Dec 9 04:13 wisdom/ngevd 23:10:47 -!- atehwa has joined. 23:10:58 `unidecode °​_ 23:10:59 ​[U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005F LOW LINE] 23:11:00 shachaf, i feel like if your terminal can't deal with unicode then that's on you 23:11:02 ah. 23:11:07 Phantom_Hoover: Agreed. 23:11:30 I guess the half-wit...width spaces are no problem? 23:11:35 oerjan was trying to get my goat 23:12:05 。。。 23:12:07 `` hg blame wisdom/oerjan 23:12:09 6537: Your famous mysterious evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. 23:12:27 blame? 23:12:36 `` sed -i 's/famous/infamous/' wisdom/oerjan 23:12:39 take that 23:12:41 No output. 23:12:53 * oerjan gently swats int-e -----### 23:12:56 clog: are you borken? 23:13:08 clog is fine afaict. glogbot is awol. 23:13:09 @wn infamous 23:13:13 *** "infamous" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 23:13:13 infamous 23:13:13 adj 1: known widely and usually unfavorably; "a notorious 23:13:13 gangster"; "the tenderloin district was notorious for 23:13:13 vice"; "the infamous Benedict Arnold"; [syn: {ill-famed}, 23:13:15 {infamous}, {notorious}] 23:13:28 hm, are you infamous or notorious 23:15:46 `? password 23:15:47 The password of the month is qjkxbmwvz 23:16:40 int-e: actually one relevant thing with clog is that the tunes logs have no declared charset so sometimes i have to change it. 23:17:00 yeah, I just noticed that 23:17:06 `` ls -l wisdom/password 23:17:07 ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 39 Mar 5 17:33 wisdom/password 23:17:14 hm 23:18:05 `learn The password of the month is supercalifragilisticexpialidocious 23:18:07 Relearned 'password': The password of the month is supercalifragilisticexpialidocious 23:19:04 * oerjan superspeller 23:19:24 shachaf: nefarious hth 23:19:51 ah. " there's that a* word i can never remember again" 23:21:07 of course now my brain has created an connection between "word i can never remember" and that word, so now i sometimes remember it instead of whatever _other_ word i'm trying to remember. 23:21:34 . o O ( `` sed -i 's/"a.*"/"allegorical"/' wisdom/oerjan ) 23:23:20 `learn An amortized word is a word that oerjan can never remember. 23:23:23 Learned 'amortized': An amortized word is a word that oerjan can never remember. 23:23:40 (not worth it but it's another nice word that starts with 'a') 23:24:03 int-e: I spent weeks once trying to remember the word "proverbial". 23:24:14 I asked everyone I talked to. 23:24:29 The word about algorithms that I have trouble remembering is "parsimonious" 23:24:53 a persimmonious algorithm 23:24:58 What do algorithms have to do with fruit? 23:25:00 curses 23:25:20 * oerjan high five 23:25:36 so that's what it's called in english, thanks! 23:25:46 ... 23:26:08 * oerjan immediately regrets the ... 23:27:17 * oerjan now wonders what persimmon is in german 23:27:41 "Kaki" 23:28:54 apparently both names (minus an m) are used in norwegian. not that i've really noticed them. 23:31:02 A parsimonious algorithm is one that doesn't ask redundant questions... I believe Knuth coined the term for his analysis of convex hull algorithms based on "clockwise" predicates. The predicate is true for three points PQR if the triangle PQR has P,Q,R in clockwise order. But the computation is subject to loss of precision if done with floating point numbers, and algorithms may run into trouble... 23:31:08 ...with contradictory answers. One principled way to avoid such trouble is not to ask redundant questions. Hence the concept. 23:31:58 (The term is also applicable to sorting.) 23:32:08 yeah i knew the sorting version 23:32:20 merge sort fulfils that, i think. 23:33:32 you could create a (badly balanced) shuffling algorithm by calling such a sort algorithm with a random comparison predicate 23:34:14 Most sorting algorithms have the property, I think... including insertion sort, heap sort, many implementations of quicksort. Shellsort is one exception I can think of. 23:34:21 i think i experimented with that in the channel once. 23:34:53 but I may be wrong about heapsort, actually 23:35:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:36:04 * oerjan isn't overly clear on all those 23:36:24 And I guess that sorting networks are generally not very good at avoiding redundant comparisons. 23:39:57 Yeah, the standard array based heap sort is not on the list, because it places many elements inside the heap twice (once when building the heap (raising elements) and once in the extraction phase (sinking elements)). A pity :) 23:41:06 What list is this and what are we sorting? 23:41:35 The list is the list of parsimonious sorting algorithms. 23:41:49 and how is it sorted? 23:42:02 (comparison based, so it doesn't really matter how its sorted) 23:42:14 * int-e -----###s oerjan. 23:42:26 ah but are you sure the comparisons are repeatable 23:42:52 no. 23:42:59 the whole point is that they need not be repeatable 23:43:01 * oerjan snags his swatter back 23:43:25 so you are saying the list is parsimoniously sorted? 23:43:33 otherwise they need to be. 23:44:27 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 23:44:37 parsimony is also important when programming kayak 23:45:01 so this has real-world esoteric programming applications 23:45:07 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sorting_algorithm#.22Comparison_of_algorithms.22_table_ordering 23:45:37 oerjan: Last time I checked, ⊥ is unambiguously false 23:45:44 hppavilion[2]: *whoosh* 23:45:51 -!- boily has joined. 23:45:53 oerjan: ... 23:45:55 oerjan: Oh. 23:45:58 * oerjan was admittedly aiming high 23:46:05 oerjan: Ah, I get it now 23:46:13 hppavellon[2], hellørjan. 23:46:18 oerjan: I think I've invented TCBNF 23:46:21 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1]. 23:46:24 bood nightly 23:46:30 boily: To whom are you speaking? 23:46:41 hppavilion[1]: you know general grammars are TC right 23:46:50 oerjan: I don't think BNF is TC 23:47:05 well BNF is for context-free grammars, so 23:47:18 oerjan: That's what I thought 23:47:28 oerjan: The TCBNF I speak of is fairly simple 23:47:46 It's like BNF, but every rule has an unbounded nonnegative integer associated with it 23:48:01 oerjan: fwiw, "Persimone" is a german word as well... apparenly "Kaki" is really a whole family of fruits. 23:48:06 There are two new "operators" for matching, of the syntaxes x++ and x--{y}{z} 23:48:14 I assume everyone knows where I'm going with this 23:48:36 x++ matches the empty string, but with the side effect of incrementing the integer associated with the rule "x" 23:48:46 hppavilion[1]: I porthelloed y'all. 23:48:53 boily: yES 23:48:55 *yes 23:48:57 ahoily 23:48:58 OKAY 23:49:20 x--{y}{z} matches the empty string, then decrements x and matches y, UNLESS x is 0, in which case it matches z 23:49:36 * int-e idly wonders how many people here know DPLL 23:49:38 Obviously, x has to be a rule name, it can't be any other type of expression 23:49:45 int-e: DPLL? 23:49:55 hppavilion[1]: I'll take that as a "I don't" 23:49:59 * boily longs for the day where he won't tab-complete a mkdir 23:50:27 Oh, and we pretend backtracking never happens because TCBNF is the Omniscient God of Grammar 23:50:28 (mm, I only know half of the names though, meh) 23:51:12 int-e: I don't know anything; I've learned more in the last five minutes than I learn in a month. 23:51:19 Though in reality, it just pushes a clone of the current environment onto a stack every time backtracking may occur, then discards the ToS if it doesn't after completion and POPs it and uses it as the new environment if it does backtrack 23:51:34 Let's see. Davis, Putnam, Logemann, Loveland. 23:51:43 * boily longs for the day where he won't tab-complete a mkdir <-- surely you should long for the day your computer can guess the directory so that tab-completion works hth 23:51:46 (Because AFAIK you can't really figure out if you're going to have to backtrack without trying, in the general case) 23:52:16 booe is right 23:53:19 oerjan: if it can do that then it shouldn't require pressing the tab key either 23:53:20 `relcome Greenlock 23:53:29 ​Greenlock: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 23:54:53 I sometimes am about to sen a message with absolutely no value to the discussion, then I absentmindedly add a joke to it (such as the joke above) and it becomes... well, still worthless, but at least mildly amusing 23:55:49 why would you do such a thing are you secretly an alien reptile 23:56:01 oerjan: NO! 23:56:32 * oerjan carves another *WHOOSH* into his belt 23:56:47 https://xkcd.com/1530/ 23:58:02 Rainbow text just for me! *-* 23:58:04 oerjan: OK, I still don't get it. 23:58:13 Greenlock: yes. It is just for you. 23:58:33 Greenlock: And most certainly not something we do for all new users. 23:58:47 I need a map of the GG world... I was assuming the Corbette monastry(?) was quite some distance away from Paris... 23:58:58 Right, certainly. 23:59:09 int-e: monastery? 23:59:26 for you 23:59:28 hppavilion[1]: I'm hoping for oerjan to correct me 23:59:55 Hm... how can we scare Greenlock away? 23:59:57 `evill 23:59:58 But that often requires subtlety, so I may have spoiled the chance now. 23:59:59 `evil 2016-04-13: 00:00:08 KILL A PUPPY EVERY DAY. 00:00:08 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: evill: not found 00:00:44 Do you have... an esoteric chatbot? 00:00:55 fungot: that's your cue, I think 00:00:55 int-e: i am just as confused. you know, that thing is " quantum-complete"? -g ( was that fnord thing from stockholm, a special shape, very magic ( in the system used by any scheme? i'm using. you'd said who did that samurai the story, right. some numbers, perhaps, it may be said that particularly here, parliament will give a single instance, 00:01:10 ^style 00:01:10 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 00:01:20 ^style fungot 00:01:20 Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself) 00:01:28 oh. 00:01:29 Greenlock: Well, there's fungot 00:01:29 hppavilion[1]: i just wrote :p ( what was i thinking of something. at the moment. wheee, shiny.'). the solution is to produce the bonds i.e fnord between the karma and our fnord causeway. the scene uses hare coursing as a metaphor and may be fnord to other military genius, indeed, from country, have the fnord so fnord a series of really coy riddles about it and stop the eval loop, stable or otherwise fail ( just annotate the pa 00:01:35 ^style irc 00:01:35 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 00:01:36 Oh, looks like int-e beat me 00:02:04 fungot isn't very smart, but quite esoteric 00:02:04 int-e: what about text with color? something like fnord or fnord fnord 00:02:07 Greenlock: fungot is esoteric in multiple ways, too. They spit out completely incoherent garbage, AND they're written in funge-98 00:02:07 hppavilion[1]: addition is hard. let's go shopping!" activist groups throughout the country were outraged that mattel would program barbie with such overtly sexist sayings, and the 00:02:10 ^version 00:02:48 That explains the name. 00:02:58 int-e: Huh, fungot's mention of coloured text was actually fairly relevant to our discussion 00:02:58 hppavilion[1]: ( ct) 00:03:06 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:03:06 That, on the other hand, was not 00:03:21 hppavilion[1]: I believe I've called the irc style semi-sentient before :P 00:03:31 int-e: Well, true 00:03:49 int-e: Has anybody tried showing fungot themself in a mirror? 00:03:49 hppavilion[1]: ( c) ( ( a. d), e.g. fnord would have 5 mins left 00:04:37 (we need a pronoun for fungot. I vote fne ("fn" as in "fnord", "e" as in "he" and "she" and "me" and "e")) 00:04:37 hppavilion[1]: by complications are u referring to implementing it 00:05:30 fne knows you well. 00:05:33 oerjan: OK, I still don't get it. <-- it was meta. 00:05:39 (fne, fney, fnim, fnimself, fnis) 00:05:40 oerjan: Oh? 00:06:04 fizzie, your thoughts? 00:06:55 int-e: the st. Spaz monastery is probably far away. but they said the library itself _used_ to be a corbettite stronghold. 00:07:49 Today's SMBC is amazing. 00:08:21 Greenlock: And most certainly not something we do for all new users. <-- sometimes ais523 is around and does the boring black-and-white version instead. 00:09:33 oerjan: Yes, but those users never come back 00:09:50 But that often requires subtlety, so I may have spoiled the chance now. <-- i am just backscrolled hth 00:10:02 Oooh, the first mistake has been made. I may be here forever now. 00:11:10 -!- Greenlock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:12:01 -!- greenlock has joined. 00:12:35 I purposelessly changed my name to lowercase. 00:12:47 (fne, fney, fnim, fnimself, fnis) <-- i think you have too many forms there 00:12:48 ⊥ is a sleeping turnstile. (Seriosly. Look at ⊢ and explain how it keeps up this balancing act... it must rest sometimes...) 00:13:30 oerjan: Which ones were dupli- oh, fney 00:14:01 `unidecode ⊢ 00:14:04 ​[U+22A2 RIGHT TACK] 00:14:25 `unicode WRONG TACK 00:14:32 No output. 00:14:47 Alias names: turnstile; proves, implies, yields; reducible 00:15:17 TeX: \vdash 00:15:40 what kind of a name is "turnstile", anyway 00:16:24 I'm trying to figure out the math behind http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4071 00:16:37 a pictographical one, loosely based on turnstiles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnstile 00:16:43 Putting sum([x for x in range(1, 65)])/100 into python gives $20:80 00:17:27 s/:/./ 00:17:27 `unidecode ∻ 00:17:28 ​[U+223B HOMOTHETIC] 00:17:30 int-e: beetleburg is in transylvania, and i've sort of been assuming mechanicsburg is not that far away 00:17:31 (forgot how money works) 00:17:52 so the train trip must have gone through most of europe 00:19:15 but i guess all that eastern geography is pretty dubious 00:20:09 > sum $ take 64 $ 1 : repeat 2 00:20:11 127 00:20:29 > sum $ take 64 $ cycle [1,2] -- and that's the red button panel 00:20:31 96 00:20:37 hp: I'm getting the same result. 00:21:44 int-e: Ooooooh 00:21:51 greenlock: int-e solved it with Haskell 00:22:47 I'm trying to figure out the math behind http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4071 <-- i'm not sure there is one beyond "there is more than one sequence starting 1,2,...". although the final result is 2^7-1 pennies, i'm not sure how to get that logically from 64 cells. 00:23:05 hppavilion[1]: fwiw, it had me puzzled for a few minutes when I first saw it last week. 00:23:40 that 20.80 was my first attempt too, since i'd seen a similar joke that used that series. 00:23:46 oerjan: Again, int-e seems to have gotten it 00:24:29 int-e: Ooooooh <-- darn 00:25:45 > sum [2^i | i <- [0..63]] :: Int 00:25:47 -1 00:26:04 TIL: Haskell 00:29:29 > sum [2^^i | i <- [0..63]] :: Int 00:29:31 No instance for (Fractional Int) arising from a use of ‘^^’ 00:29:31 In the expression: 2 ^^ i 00:29:31 In the first argument of ‘sum’, namely ‘[2 ^^ i | i <- [0 .. 63]]’ 00:29:46 But why would the guy pick the chessboard over full-ride? Any obvious sequence of pennies would never add up to a reasonable sum. 00:29:46 > sum [2**i | i <- [0..63]] :: Int 00:29:48 No instance for (Floating Int) arising from a use of ‘**’ 00:29:48 In the expression: 2 ** i 00:29:48 In the first argument of ‘sum’, namely ‘[2 ** i | i <- [0 .. 63]]’ 00:30:05 greenlock: 2^n would 00:30:27 greenlock: 2^63 alone is a HUGE number 00:30:56 True. 00:31:07 $9.223372036854776e+16 00:33:50 greenlock: What's your favourite programming paradigm? 00:34:17 Why do I feel like this is a trap question? o-o 00:34:45 (Functional, Logic, Reactive, Event-driven, OO, some hyphen-separated combination of these, etc.) 00:34:51 OO is the only one I'm familiar enough with to be useful. 00:34:54 greenlock: It might be 00:35:14 greenlock: Learn some Haskell and PROLOG. 00:35:19 greenlock: It'll be good for you 00:35:32 greenlock: http://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters 00:40:02 . o O ( JOIN USSS... ) 00:41:03 join whom? what? why? how? can I pay in maple syrup? 00:41:29 boily: usss. haskell. because awesome. see link. yes. 00:41:35 boily: WE pay YOU in ANTI maple syrup. 00:41:43 boily: NEGASYRUP 00:41:47 Reactive is looking pretty interesting tho 00:41:59 greenlock: Then learn Elm 00:42:07 boily: don't listen to hppavilion[1] he hasn't got the CPT symmetry straight yet. 00:42:24 oerjan: CPT? 00:42:32 charge-parity-time 00:42:58 if you reverse all, then supposedly physics stays unchanged. 00:43:09 I suppose this is reactive and functional? 00:43:12 (parity = mirror) 00:43:16 oerjan: Ah 00:43:33 Haskell is pretty nifty, yes. 00:43:35 greenlock: Yes 00:43:44 greenlock: It's also good for webdev 00:44:28 greenlock: Though Haskell has the awesome tutorial I linked above 00:44:34 greenlock: And Elm is pretty similar to Haskell 00:44:59 greenlock: I'd advise you learn Haskell first, as Haskell is kind of like the C of absurdly-high-level declarative languages 00:45:03 also, paying in ANTI maple syrup would destroy maple syrup, which is clearly a heresy. 00:45:49 of course with any luck, they'll find somehow that the CPT symmetry is broken after all. 00:46:06 and then they'll have to rewrite quantum field theory, or thereabouts. 00:46:41 (they already had to rewrite stuff when the _partial_ symmetries were broken. 00:46:44 ) 00:46:47 I want to go into making the GOP paradigm. What type of parser should I use for the POC? 00:47:07 grand old paradigm? 00:47:19 oerjan: Grand Oil Paradigm 00:47:28 Grammar-Oriented Paradigm 00:47:33 ah. 00:47:37 (I suppose that I "paradigm"ed twice there) 00:47:52 RAS syndrome strikes again. 00:49:01 `? haskell 00:49:04 Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell' 00:49:20 now i'm tempted to replace that. 00:49:33 What's Hack made out of? 00:50:21 `help 00:50:22 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 00:50:45 not made in an esolang, alas. 00:51:04 but has some esolang implementations inside. 00:54:35 Well... 00:54:42 Delaware has Murderkill River 00:55:11 very creppy, such evill 00:55:19 `! unlambda `.!`.d`.l`.r`.o`.w`. `.,`.o`.l`.l`.e`.Hi 00:55:20 Hello, world! 00:55:22 oerjan: Isn't HackEgo programmed in C? At least, the Unix is 00:56:09 sjø is a weird word, it seems 00:56:09 hppavilion[1]: i don't know what languages Gregor used to write it. 00:56:17 oerjan: Ah 00:56:56 Twas written by a member here? 00:57:14 Yes, though Gregor doesn't actually show up that often these days. 00:57:19 greenlock: HackEgo is #esoteric-specific 00:57:26 hppavilion[1]: sjø means sea. it's also a kind of interjection stereotypically put at the end of sentences by people in mid Norway, sort of like canadian "eh" 00:57:31 How about a language that defines its own grammar? 00:57:43 For the reasonable reason that apparently being a professor takes a lot of time. 00:57:51 (in the latter case it's short for "you see", i think) 00:58:12 As in, you first use the body of a program to generate a parser (in a character-by-character BFy format, most likey) 00:58:23 Then you use that parser to parse the program 00:58:28 pikhq: Gregor is online, but not on the channel. not that he was speaking recently when he pinged out. 00:58:40 *shrug* 00:58:56 oerjan: tsé. 00:59:02 But then you would need a parser to parse the parser. 00:59:04 Can't fault a guy for doing other things. 00:59:24 greenlock: No, the parser generation is done with a language similar to BF 00:59:35 greenlock: Character-by-character; perhaps stack-based 00:59:40 greenlock: he also wrote two other bots that are _usually_ on the channel, but they also got disconnected at about the same time. 01:00:41 oerjan: Which ones? 01:00:49 hppavilion[1]: glogbot and EgoBot 01:00:52 oerjan: Ah 01:00:57 oerjan: Isn't EgoBot deprecated? 01:00:59 Seems like it would turn out less like a language and more like writing a parser in BF. 01:01:12 greenlock: No, but the parser it generates is then used to parse the same file 01:01:49 The entire program would simply be redirected the file input into the BF interpreter. 01:01:52 greenlock: I have a feeling that you would need to be a computational linguist to write, read, or design this language 01:02:02 greenlock: No, it's not BF 01:02:10 greenlock: I used BF as an analogy 01:02:17 hppavilion[1]: it keeps shambling along. we thought it had left for good once, but then Gregor put it back on. and we've never managed to get _all_ of its features properly transferred to HackEgo. 01:02:18 greenlock: It's character-by-character evaluation 01:02:46 indeed some, like the ability to run esolang code from the web, isn't currently possible. 01:02:56 greenlock: You first evaluate the language character-by-character, THEN you evaluate the program with the parser it makes 01:03:15 oerjan: Wouldn't `fetch $1 | bf do that? 01:03:21 s/`// 01:03:36 (And you would obviously use something other than bf in many cases)I 01:03:47 Or, wait, doesn't fetch write to a file automagically? 01:05:29 hppavilion[1]: you cannot pipe fetch into other commands, it's not inside the sandbox. 01:05:58 oerjan: Oh 01:06:03 i suppose you can do it with two commands, the first of which is `fetch. 01:06:22 might even use that `lastfile feature shachaf added. 01:06:26 `lastfile 01:06:26 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lastfile: not found 01:06:29 um 01:06:35 `` ls bin/*last* 01:06:36 bin/lastfiles \ bin/sedlast 01:06:40 `lastfiles 01:06:41 wisdom/amortized 01:07:16 still, for some things, EgoBot is still more convenient. 01:07:52 hppavilion[1]: your self-parsing language reminds me of ais523's feather. 01:07:56 `cat bin/sedlast 01:07:58 sed -i "$1" "$(lastfiles)" 01:08:08 fun 01:08:33 have feather existed yet? 01:08:35 int-e: it's a little buggy if the last command changed more than one file, i should think. 01:08:48 boily: if it did, it stopped. 01:08:55 maybe it will have. 01:09:00 oerjan: So what's a good type of parser that I should use for the GOP POC? 01:09:03 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:09:34 oerjan: it should just change all of them? ... hmm, depends on whether lastfiles does multiline output 01:09:52 or not 01:10:09 int-e: it doesn't. i think the hg output doesn't support it. 01:10:21 `cat bin/lastfiles 01:10:22 hg log -l 1 --template "{files}\n" 01:10:28 at least not with that method. 01:10:37 okay 01:11:03 I'm trying to decide whether to allow backtracking 01:11:20 I feel like backtracking might be necessary for it to work 01:11:31 hppavilion[1]: you can always revisit your decision later 01:11:36 int-e: ... 01:11:44 * hppavilion[1] begins the slow clap 01:11:52 * hppavilion[1] feels proud that he got that one 01:11:55 we seem to be on a run 01:12:39 oerjan: Backtracking feels necessary for programming in a GOP, but it also seems like it might make things harder to understand. What are your thoughts? 01:13:22 my thoughts is that i have no intuition for this paradigm. 01:13:25 *are 01:13:34 > hg log -T '{files}\n' 01:13:34 a a b b 01:13:35 :1:12: parse error on input ‘{’ 01:13:36 sigh. 01:13:40 also, earley parsers are cool hth 01:13:44 @botsnack (sorry!) 01:13:44 :) 01:14:11 oerjan: I'll check them 01:15:14 Oooh, it's good with left-recursive rules 01:15:26 PEG.js throws errors if you even /try/ to left-recurse 01:16:32 oerjan: they're not good for security, though 01:16:39 in a sense, earley doesn't backtrack, but only because it keeps all possibilities in parallel. 01:16:42 shachaf: huh? 01:16:45 the earley parser gets the worm 01:17:04 * oerjan sighs audibly. 01:17:24 `` hg log -l 1 -T '{files|obfuscate}' # meh 01:17:25 hg log: option -T not recognized \ hg log [OPTION]... [FILE] \ \ show revision history of entire repository or files \ \ options: \ \ -f --follow follow changeset history, or file history across \ copies and renames \ -d --date DATE show revisions matching date spec \ -C --copies s 01:17:33 `` hg log -l 1 --template '{files|obfuscate}' # meh 01:17:36 ​** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in \ mercurial.dis 01:17:47 oh wow ... 01:18:31 `` hg log -l 1 --template '{author|obfuscate}' 01:18:33 ​HackBot 01:18:49 * boily thwacks shachaf. a full 1.0 shachafs there. 01:18:59 -!- greenlock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:19:27 i think we overloaded greenlock. 01:19:50 oerjan: Why is it that the more complex a pun gets (earley parser gets the worm required knowledge of multiple fields of CS, PLUS knowing the idiom), the worse we find it? 01:19:51 whether with science or with silliness, remains unknown. 01:22:46 hppavilion[1]: it's proportional to the damage caused by the necessary rewiring of the brain hth 01:22:53 oerjan: Ah 01:24:06 in case of a > 3.0 shachaf pun, or more than five 2.0 shachaf puns in a 24 hour period, consult a doctor. 01:24:54 One of the things I want to support with my GOP is http://catseye.tc/view/specs-on-spec/mdpn/mdpn.markdown 01:25:25 see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ienp4J3pW7U 01:31:49 oerjan: If a shachaf pun lasts more than 4 hours, consult a doctor immediately. 01:32:09 oerjan: How horribly inefficient is the algebraic matching of MDPN for a parser? 01:35:00 `` hg files -r -1 'set:modified or added()' 01:35:03 hg: unknown command 'files' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff diff reposi 01:35:12 okay! 01:35:23 `` hg --version 01:35:24 Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ (see http://mercurial.selenic.com for more information) \ \ Copyright (C) 2005-2012 Matt Mackall and others \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. 01:35:57 anyway mercurial makes this surpisingly hard 01:40:29 webcomic question: what was that webcomic again, with that girl who falls into a parallel world and she has purple scleras? 01:42:08 boily: it doesn't exist, you must have fallen here from a parallel world 01:42:44 of course it exists. it is not Canada. 01:43:09 impeccable logic. 01:46:40 purple scleras webcomic ==> google ==> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Webcomic/Miamaska 01:47:31 inthanks-e! ^^ 01:50:26 boily: ¬(x ≡ Canada) ↔ exists(x) 01:50:42 I spent far too long finding the characters to type that message 01:50:57 (and a voice from above says:) 01:51:01 PLUGH! 01:51:05 It sounds like YOU need the "Unicode Keyboard" 01:51:20 The Unicode Keyboard 01:51:35 `unidecode ≡ 01:51:35 ​[U+2261 IDENTICAL TO] 01:51:37 01:51:48 `unicode NOT IDENTICAL TO 01:51:48 ​≢ 01:51:53 oerjan: Well. 01:52:00 `unicode NOT NOT IDENTICAL TO 01:52:03 what happens if you type Ctrl-Shift-U? do you get an underlined u, then can you type the codepoint for the character you need? 01:52:03 No output. 01:52:23 boily: Yes, but I don't have ALL OF UNICODE memorized 01:52:35 remember A66E. 01:52:36 boily: In fact, the only unichr I can do off the top of my head is λ 01:52:45 ٦ 01:52:45 hmm, what input method is that... 01:53:03 int-e: It's the type-your-own-damn-unicode method 01:53:10 I don't know. it works here. 01:53:31 hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Input_Method 01:54:13 int-e: I'm seriously considering making a unicode keyboard program that replaces certain characters when the right keystrokes are pressed 01:54:22 * int-e tends to use gucharmap anyway 01:54:55 Something like [CTRL]+\++[space|enter|comma|whatever] 01:55:23 a Compose key 01:55:39 too logical. 01:56:15 scim already has some latex table 01:56:37 (but for some reason I didn't like scim when I tried it) 01:58:26 wasn't scim dead? 02:02:12 Cells remind me of Smalltalk.. all full of stuff that goes back to the ancient past and not readily bootstrapable 02:02:27 boily: I don't know. 02:09:30 I have decided on an alternative to CQS that I will adhere to from now on 02:09:38 pCQS (partial CQS) 02:10:21 You have a set of "primitive methods" for an object (possibly marked, perhaps by naming convention) and a set of "composed methods" 02:10:50 helloily 02:11:09 you werent around last night 02:11:09 Primitive methods must adhere to CQS, but composed methods need not; composed methods may not directly interact with the object, but must rather use the primitive methods the same way an external object uses methods in general 02:11:44 This allows things like stack.POP() to be implemented while remaining sane to a substantial degree, as CQS encourages 02:11:54 Oooh, are there esoteric design patterns? 02:12:08 quinthellopia! on Monday nights I'm usually there between 6:00pm and 6:50pm hth. 02:14:44 oh okay 02:14:51 well good night then 02:15:43 bonne nuitopia! I haven't forgotten The Snack Exchange! 02:16:01 -!- boily has quit (Quit: VOYAGER CHICKEN). 02:22:57 quintopia: "there"? 02:26:35 They make class diagrams for OOP', but I've never seen function diagrams for FP 02:26:38 s/'// 02:28:34 FRP? http://www.jaritimonen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/registration-form-bacon.png 02:35:33 hppavilion[1]: boily is quebecois and speaks boilyese 02:37:01 http://www.subtext-lang.org/OOPSLA07.pdf#page=14 02:40:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:43:06 They make class diagrams for OOP', but I've never seen function diagrams for FP <-- http://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens 02:43:24 oerjan: Oh. 02:47:24 -!- AmiMoench has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:52:05 -!- puckipedia has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:58:38 ah 03:03:55 -!- Kaynato has joined. 03:04:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:07:21 <\oren\> DER SCHNABELTIER IST FLIEGEN! 03:08:55 -!- puckipedia has joined. 03:09:04 huh that's a funny false friend 03:09:36 de:Schnabeltier = en:platypus, no:snabeldyr = elephant(s) 03:09:51 <\oren\> I made a plane with a propeller on the front and a rocket engine on the back 03:11:13 <\oren\> so I decided to call it a platypus but in german for more rocketyness 03:11:22 (presumably because de:Schnabel = beak while no:snabel = trunk) 03:12:13 (en:platypus = no:nebbdyr, with no:nebb = beak, too) 03:13:02 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:13:36 (also, technically en:elephant = no:elefant most of the time) 03:14:37 en:trunk = de:Rüssel, it seems 03:17:24 <\oren\> hmm, so schnabeltier is "beaked-thingy" 03:17:45 -animal or -beast 03:17:59 <\oren\> admittedly a platypus is hard to describe 03:23:00 <\oren\> I consider the fact it lays eggs to be the weirdest part 03:26:19 en:elephant is pl:słoń 03:26:28 Not sure where the Polish word comes from 03:26:51 en:trunk is pl:trąba 03:36:46 <\oren\> propeller engines don't operate well in the stratosphere 03:38:22 They operate really well underwater though 03:38:51 \oren\: How about the fact that instead of nipples, a platypus has a smooth patch of skin that milk comes out of 03:39:49 <\oren\> augh 03:39:59 -!- tromp_ has joined. 03:41:13 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:41:35 -!- tromp_ has joined. 03:47:34 \oren\: Echidnas also are egg-laying mammals 04:07:03 -!- pelegreno_ has joined. 04:13:11 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:15:15 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 04:15:46 -!- ^v has joined. 04:26:15 -!- Elronnd has changed nick to strangebot. 04:28:45 -!- strangebot has changed nick to Elronnd. 04:40:21 -!- pelegreno has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:40:34 -!- pelegreno_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:41:50 -!- pelegreno has joined. 04:47:49 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:53:14 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 05:06:38 -!- tromp_ has joined. 05:23:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 05:26:06 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:26:33 `slist [S] ACT 7 -- Homestuck finale 05:26:49 slist [S] ACT 7 -- Homestuck finale: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 05:27:04 Now where was that autodeleting slist when you need it? 05:28:33 glad I'm awake 05:51:54 -!- j-bot has joined. 06:07:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:26:49 -!- tromp_ has joined. 06:31:09 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:38:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:40:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:43:12 -!- bb010g has joined. 06:58:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:01:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 07:01:39 Is it possible to implement call/cc in a way not requiring vast code restructuring (other than inserted functions) in λcalc? 07:23:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:28:16 -!- tromp_ has joined. 07:28:40 -!- rdococ has joined. 07:29:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:29:36 -!- heroux has joined. 07:32:51 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:01:03 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:18:49 -!- earendel has joined. 08:23:22 -!- rdococ has changed nick to rdaway. 08:23:35 -!- rdaway has changed nick to rdococ. 08:24:33 -!- rdococ has changed nick to rdaway. 08:51:59 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:00:22 -!- carado has joined. 09:27:55 -!- tromp_ has joined. 09:32:06 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:35:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:47:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:52:19 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:28:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:29:48 oh wow 10:30:56 this webpage has a label (on some fancy javascripted element to roll out a menu or something) that's supposed to be rotated right to fit in a vertical bar, 10:31:29 but it has two CSS properties set to rotate it right, and the end result that it's rotated upside down and I only see two letters of it. 10:33:50 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:47:52 -!- earendel_ has quit (*.net *.split). 10:47:54 -!- dingbat has quit (*.net *.split). 10:47:54 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 10:47:54 -!- zemhill has quit (*.net *.split). 10:47:54 -!- Taneb has quit (*.net *.split). 10:48:25 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:52:30 -!- dingbat has joined. 10:54:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:16:33 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:28:31 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:30:17 -!- augur has joined. 11:32:31 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:33:54 -!- boily has joined. 11:34:06 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:36:32 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:38:13 -!- erdic has joined. 11:44:45 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:46:32 -!- deltab has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:46:44 -!- deltab has joined. 12:00:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 12:07:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:17:39 -!- boily has quit (Quit: COMMISSION CHICKEN). 12:30:07 -!- tromp_ has joined. 12:34:40 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:35:16 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:36:28 -!- catern has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:37:05 -!- trn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:37:05 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:37:55 -!- ineiros has joined. 12:45:37 -!- trn has joined. 12:54:18 -!- catern has joined. 13:12:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:36:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:58:12 @tell hppavilion[1] re: OCR, so just... metadata with regards to where the text is? Should it, err, figure that out itself? 13:58:12 Consider it noted. 13:58:19 * zgrep considers it to be noted 13:59:33 @tell hppavilion[1] oh, I see, also letter descriptions... but it would technically be better, I think, to have it "learn" than to have a general description of what a letter looks like... because that'd let it choose what it most easily identifies to be a particular letter. 13:59:33 Consider it noted. 14:16:15 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:31:29 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:34:08 -!- Froox has joined. 14:35:13 -!- pdxleif- has joined. 14:38:03 -!- b_jonas_ has joined. 14:38:04 -!- atehwa_ has joined. 14:39:00 -!- FreeFull_ has joined. 14:43:40 -!- earendel has quit (*.net *.split). 14:43:40 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 14:43:40 -!- Frooxius has quit (*.net *.split). 14:43:42 -!- pdxleif has quit (*.net *.split). 14:43:42 -!- FreeFull has quit (*.net *.split). 14:43:42 -!- clog has quit (*.net *.split). 14:43:42 -!- b_jonas has quit (*.net *.split). 14:43:42 -!- pdxleif- has changed nick to pdxleif. 14:43:53 [wiki] [[Golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46774&oldid=34218 * SuperJedi224 * (+87) 14:46:01 -!- carado has joined. 14:47:32 -!- `^_^ has joined. 14:50:29 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:51:58 -!- clog has joined. 14:58:07 -!- FreeFull_ has changed nick to FreeFull. 15:11:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:19:04 [wiki] [[Unicorn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46775 * 111.34.148.96 * (+556) Created page with "Unicorn is a very simple programming language. You can learn the basics of coding without needing special software. Everything is on this webpage, including this tutorial. The..." 15:19:41 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:31:27 -!- tromp_ has joined. 15:34:51 -!- Froo has joined. 15:35:41 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:36:44 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:36:44 -!- nycs has joined. 15:38:16 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:38:16 -!- Froox has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:38:52 -!- `^_^ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:44:51 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:47:56 -!- rdaway has changed nick to rdococ. 15:49:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:58:54 -!- spiette has joined. 16:04:26 http://classicprogrammerpaintings.tumblr.com/ best. tumblr. ever! 16:17:05 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 16:21:24 -!- greenlock has joined. 16:25:34 -!- Kaynato has joined. 16:28:23 -!- greenlock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:30:56 -!- centrinia has joined. 16:34:31 -!- Reece` has joined. 16:36:53 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 16:37:35 -!- staffehn_ has joined. 16:39:19 -!- mysanthrop has joined. 16:42:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:43:54 -!- Vorpal_ has joined. 16:43:54 -!- Vorpal_ has quit (Changing host). 16:43:54 -!- Vorpal_ has joined. 16:44:16 -!- J_Arcane has quit (*.net *.split). 16:44:16 -!- clog has quit (*.net *.split). 16:44:16 -!- carado has quit (*.net *.split). 16:44:16 -!- dingbat has quit (*.net *.split). 16:44:17 -!- myname has quit (*.net *.split). 16:44:17 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 16:44:17 -!- staffehn has quit (*.net *.split). 16:44:17 -!- gniourf has quit (*.net *.split). 16:48:15 -!- mysanthrop has changed nick to myname. 16:50:02 -!- dingbat has joined. 16:50:06 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:50:37 -!- carado has joined. 16:51:30 -!- gniourf has joined. 17:05:39 -!- clog has joined. 17:10:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:39:03 -!- ^v has joined. 17:41:03 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal. 17:47:28 -!- gamemanj has joined. 17:56:06 exit 17:56:12 Whoops :D 18:03:27 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:16:13 hppavellolion[1]! 18:38:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:40:54 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:50:48 -!- heroux has joined. 18:51:02 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:00:51 -!- gremlins has joined. 19:01:00 -!- Kaynato has joined. 19:01:05 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:01:26 -!- gremlins has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:02:03 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:07:34 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:16:01 -!- Kaynato has joined. 19:21:18 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:24:09 -!- `^_^ has joined. 19:27:11 -!- nycs has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:28:58 -!- heroux has joined. 19:33:07 -!- tromp_ has joined. 19:36:03 -!- rdococ_ has joined. 19:36:24 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 19:37:04 -!- devhydraz has joined. 19:37:05 -!- devhydraz has quit (Changing host). 19:37:05 -!- devhydraz has joined. 19:37:16 devhydraz: You new? 19:37:24 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:37:38 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:37:38 -!- hydraz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:37:42 Well, just in case 19:37:43 `relcome devhydraz 19:38:16 ​devhydraz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 19:38:43 -!- Yurume has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:39:17 -!- trn has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:39:17 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:39:17 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:39:18 -!- JX7P has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:39:18 -!- newsham has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:39:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:39:50 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:40:01 -!- Yurume has joined. 19:40:54 -!- rdococ_ has changed nick to rdococ. 19:41:09 -!- Warrigal has joined. 19:41:49 -!- sewilton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:41:50 -!- mbrcknl has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:43:09 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:44:22 -!- IRIXUser has joined. 19:44:45 -!- IRIXUser has changed nick to Guest31675. 19:46:34 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 19:46:41 -!- Guest31675 has quit (Changing host). 19:46:41 -!- Guest31675 has joined. 19:46:44 -!- Guest31675 has changed nick to JX7P. 19:48:23 Hm... 19:48:43 -!- trn has joined. 19:49:02 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1]. 19:49:44 i came to the point at which i have no idea what i am actually doing 19:52:20 myname: I think I may be missing context to this 19:52:27 -!- aloril has joined. 19:52:53 correction, I think context may be missing, end of, given client uptime 19:53:51 there is no context 19:53:56 i am trying to code stuff 19:54:05 and i am in lamda hell right now 19:54:17 at least you don't have self-modifying instructions (I hope) 19:54:59 (If you ever encounter a language with self-modification as a requirement to get things done, write a compiler to abstract it away!!!) 19:55:45 -!- mbrcknl has joined. 19:55:56 i am writing haskell 19:57:16 -!- sewilton has joined. 19:57:56 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:02:27 -!- XorSwap has joined. 20:03:50 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:06:52 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:17:17 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:24:38 -!- devhydraz has changed nick to hydraz. 20:26:01 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 20:35:17 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pieman2201 * New user account 20:37:32 -!- newsham has joined. 20:44:55 -!- Froox has joined. 20:47:07 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 20:48:23 -!- XorSwap has quit (*.net *.split). 20:48:25 -!- gniourf has quit (*.net *.split). 20:48:25 -!- Froo has quit (*.net *.split). 20:48:25 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split). 20:48:25 -!- puckipedia has quit (*.net *.split). 20:48:25 -!- shachaf has quit (*.net *.split). 20:48:26 -!- olsner has quit (*.net *.split). 20:48:26 -!- Alcest has quit (*.net *.split). 20:48:26 -!- kline has quit (*.net *.split). 20:48:27 -!- int-e has quit (*.net *.split). 20:48:46 -!- 18VAAMTVM has joined. 20:49:08 -!- 18VAAMTVM has changed nick to shachaf. 20:49:21 -!- kline has joined. 20:49:58 -!- XorSwap has joined. 20:53:30 -!- ineiros_ has joined. 20:54:06 -!- int-e_ has joined. 20:57:35 -!- gniourf has joined. 20:57:35 -!- ineiros has joined. 20:57:35 -!- puckipedia has joined. 20:57:35 -!- int-e has joined. 20:57:35 -!- olsner has joined. 20:57:35 -!- Alcest has joined. 21:04:32 -!- gniourf has quit (*.net *.split). 21:04:32 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split). 21:04:33 -!- puckipedia has quit (*.net *.split). 21:04:34 -!- olsner has quit (*.net *.split). 21:04:34 -!- Alcest has quit (*.net *.split). 21:04:34 -!- int-e has quit (*.net *.split). 21:06:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:09:48 -!- gniourf has joined. 21:09:48 -!- puckipedia has joined. 21:09:48 -!- olsner has joined. 21:10:37 I'm making a GUI library called AGLET (tested for windows 10, may work on other windows OSes, possible later support for *n?x and *n?x-like systems (probably primary developed by someone else)) 21:11:28 glob++ 21:11:58 -!- puckipedia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:12:40 -!- gniourf has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 21:13:22 -!- iconmaster has joined. 21:13:32 -!- puckipedia has joined. 21:16:04 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:16:13 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:16:58 AGLET is really a backronym; I was naming it and I got AGL, but I wanted it to be pronouncable. And it was "AGL", so I named it "AGLET". Then I just needed to enter ET 21:17:50 AGL is "Anchorage [Graphical User Interface] Library" 21:18:05 ET I couldn't come up with a name for, so it's "(for) Extraterrestrials" 21:18:21 why not AGUIL? 21:18:31 "Anchorage"? 21:19:02 another possible name: Anchorage Gui for Intelligent Living Entities: AGILE 21:19:32 gamemanj: Nice 21:19:38 gamemanj: Anchorage is the city I live in 21:20:07 *noted. please wait...* 21:21:34 hppavilion[1]: A in AGLET = Anchorage is like G in GHC = Glasgow 21:21:50 Whoops 21:21:59 So if I want to learn Haskell, I need to take a trip to Glasgow. Got it. 21:22:04 s/hppavilion[1]/gamemanj/ 21:22:07 gamemanj: Sure, why not? 21:22:25 well, actually, "learning functional programming" would be a great excuse for a holiday 21:22:49 ...I mean, educational trip. 21:23:50 do it 21:23:56 haskell is awesome 21:24:41 gamemanj: AGILE is also not a good name because AIs may or may not be allowed to use them 21:24:58 gamemanj: Depending on who makes the AI rules 21:25:01 Intelligent Logical Entities. 21:25:03 Fixed. 21:25:06 gamemanj: That works too 21:25:14 gamemanj: Wait, but then it can /only/ be used by AIs 21:25:20 Or, at the very least, it cannot be used by women. 21:25:21 Humans can be logical too! 21:25:35 -!- olsner has joined. 21:25:41 gamemanj: BUT BANANAS CAN'T SING! 21:25:45 ... 21:26:06 gamemanj: I believe the correct response is "Well played" 21:26:29 No, actually. 21:26:39 Pop-tarts can sing. Why can't bananas? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/donotdelete_nyan.BytePusher 21:27:15 as a computer science student: women can be very logical 21:27:29 myname: Yeah, I was just making a sexist joke because it was easy 21:27:34 myname: I was just being a bad person. 21:28:09 "just being a bad person"... as if that makes sense for the use of the word "just" 21:28:10 yeah 21:28:17 * hppavilion[1] considers saying exactly /how/ easy it is, relative to someone else on the channel's mother, but opts not to because he's been stupid enough for one day 21:28:27 ... 21:28:30 I seem to have lost my maturity today 21:28:34 yes 21:28:43 I will stop chatting until I find it 21:28:54 I think we should put hppavilion[1] on a recovery mechanism of BytePusher code and Brainfuck 21:29:15 Haskell and GUI code is messing hppavilion[1] up 21:29:40 -!- gniourf has joined. 21:31:42 gamemanj: But I NEED them! 21:32:01 * hppavilion[1] quietly searches for symptoms of drug addiction to further this joke 21:33:03 And it's just a little bit of haskell here and there; it's not like I'm writing a full haskell DSL for GUIs 21:34:02 -!- augur has joined. 21:34:09 hppavilion[1]: yes, addiction always starts with just a little bit of it here and there. 21:34:13 be careful 21:34:16 -!- b_jonas_ has changed nick to b_jonas. 21:34:38 -!- tromp has joined. 21:35:18 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:37:26 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 21:39:24 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:39:29 -!- diginet_ has joined. 21:39:56 -!- devhydraz has joined. 21:39:56 -!- devhydraz has quit (Changing host). 21:39:56 -!- devhydraz has joined. 21:40:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:41:58 -!- ski_ has joined. 21:42:32 -!- coppro_ has joined. 21:43:22 -!- mysanthrop has joined. 21:43:26 -!- coppro has quit (Disconnected by services). 21:43:32 -!- coppro_ has changed nick to coppro. 21:44:54 -!- myname has quit (Disconnected by services). 21:45:00 -!- mysanthrop has changed nick to myname. 21:46:09 -!- idris-bot has joined. 21:47:07 -!- hydraz has quit (*.net *.split). 21:47:10 -!- fractal has quit (*.net *.split). 21:47:10 -!- ski has quit (*.net *.split). 21:47:11 -!- izabera has quit (*.net *.split). 21:47:11 -!- mtve has quit (*.net *.split). 21:47:11 -!- diginet has quit (*.net *.split). 21:47:15 -!- diginet_ has changed nick to diginet. 21:48:27 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:49:07 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:50:57 -!- j-bot has joined. 21:53:00 -!- izabera has joined. 21:53:28 -!- mtve has joined. 22:00:50 -!- devhydraz has changed nick to hydraz. 22:08:55 -!- `^_^ has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:16:11 -!- fractal has joined. 22:20:27 -!- APic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:25:22 -!- APic has joined. 22:41:16 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:41:16 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:41:52 -!- gniourf has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:41:52 -!- Yurume has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:41:52 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:42:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:43:08 -!- heroux has joined. 22:45:23 -!- Yurume has joined. 22:48:11 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:49:33 does anyone know the proper way in irssi to tell it to change to a different server when the usual one is not responding? everytime i try it i end up being logged in twice. 22:50:47 (i tried just waiting for it to time out first, but stupid dns chose the _same_ server for irc.freenode.net) 22:51:59 oerjan: I think the trick is to specify the network name. //connect -network Freenode servernameblahblub 22:52:02 -!- int-e_ has changed nick to int-e. 22:52:40 also /rmreconns 22:52:50 i don't think that is right, /connect keeps old connections. 22:52:51 oh and you can specify several servers per network anyway 22:53:00 int-e: i have a long list. 22:53:31 it's just that the first wasn't working, the second is irc.freenode.net which resolved to the same as the first by accident. 22:53:38 also /rmreconns did nothing. 22:53:58 I'm not sure how you end up being logged in twice 22:54:12 i think i don't want "i think" advice on this. i have guesse so many times wrong. 22:54:45 int-e: i end up logged in twice because irssi has no problem being logged in twice to the same network. 22:55:01 do you just want something like /reconnect Freenode ? 22:55:18 although the other one never joined any channels, which means it doesn't work. 22:55:29 int-e: hmph, let me try that. 22:55:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 22:55:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:56:20 int-e: no, that just reconnects to the _same_ server. 22:56:47 int-e: also, you did not take my hints that i don't want guessing advice. 22:56:51 -!- aloril has joined. 22:56:56 -!- gniourf has joined. 22:56:58 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:57:04 I don't understand the problem 22:57:15 anyway whatever goodnight 22:57:26 int-e: WAT 22:57:59 * oerjan needs to calm down before he bans int-e 22:58:52 int-e: you really dahled that one 22:58:59 word. 22:59:54 i'm now angry at him for not understanding, and i cannot stop being angry because he's no longer here to listen to my explanation. 23:00:25 why are you angry at him for not understanding 23:01:48 oerjan: imo you should hug it out hth 23:01:53 tricky. 23:02:13 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:02:20 why 23:02:31 shachaf: he gives me advice that i can guess myself and which doesn't work, without understanding the problem. then just as he realizes he doesn't understand, he leaves. 23:02:45 shachaf: i'm not in austria 23:03:00 neither am i but it's never stopped me from hugging it out before hth 23:03:29 OKAY 23:04:13 anyway what would be a better behavior here 23:04:15 saying nothing? 23:04:23 anyway, what i want is a way to tell irssi to skip immediately to the next server in the freenode list, as if the current one has timed out. 23:05:09 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:05:49 https://www.google.com/flights/#search;f=TRD;t=VIE,XWW hth 23:06:06 i don't know how to do that 23:06:19 Hm... 23:06:31 End-User Programming is an interesting thing 23:06:46 neither do i. 23:07:06 But the only sort of software that is even /remotely/ generally-accessible for that purpose is spreadsheet software (and maybe personal databases, though I've never used one of those) 23:07:23 And... now I have to go 23:07:25 @messages-lud 23:07:25 zgrep said 9h 9m 12s ago: re: OCR, so just... metadata with regards to where the text is? Should it, err, figure that out itself? 23:07:25 zgrep said 9h 7m 52s ago: oh, I see, also letter descriptions... but it would technically be better, I think, to have it "learn" than to have a general description of what a letter looks like... because that'd let it choose what it most easily identifies to be a particular letter. 23:07:27 (before I leave) 23:09:36 shachaf: basically, i have a preferred freenode server (sinisalo), which is tried first. but everytime it is down it takes me > 2 extra minutes to start up irssi. i'd like some way to skip those 2 minutes. 23:09:59 and sometimes like today, by sheer bad luck with dns, it takes twice as long. 23:10:02 oerjan: i understand the problem 23:10:11 good, that's an improvement :P 23:10:46 the ironic thing is that i was just trying to start up irssi before doing something else... 23:12:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:15:48 -!- boily has joined. 23:19:27 -!- centrinia has joined. 23:22:23 eek a gap in the logs 23:22:49 Gregor is 9 days idle 23:23:19 bollehy 23:25:29 eek, another 23:28:41 hellœeekrjan! 23:28:46 gap gap gap ♪ 23:33:10 @tell hppavilion[1] myname: I was just being a bad person. <-- please report to the next #esoteric sensitivity bootcamp hth 23:33:10 Consider it noted. 23:33:37 there is a bootcamp? 23:33:45 i want to go there, too 23:34:03 at the very least, you may get the boot 23:39:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:40:35 oerjan: fwiw, http://bugs.irssi.org/index.php?do=details&task_id=176 (and also http://bugs.irssi.org/index.php?do=details&task_id=175, but the former has a useful hint at the bottom) 23:41:08 ooh 23:42:41 it is possible that /server
thing is the closest available 23:44:06 is that an angry "ooh" 23:44:29 perhaps the latter is why /rmreconns did nothing 23:44:36 shachaf: no 23:59:17 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2016-04-14: 00:04:43 `wisdom 00:04:58 irc/IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays. 00:06:29 my quote of the day: IRC is a frontend for google with insults 00:07:14 * boily updates the thing that becomes a PDF ♪ 00:08:21 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:09:47 > ord '*' 00:09:48 42 00:09:58 > ord '#' 00:10:00 35 00:10:09 > ord '$' 00:10:11 36 00:10:42 > map chr [0x20..0x3F] 00:10:44 " !\"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?" 00:19:12 question: is adu someone? 00:20:25 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 00:21:09 hoily 00:21:11 boily: yes. 00:21:31 why e has recently left us, no one knows. 00:21:38 not even emself. 00:22:09 you may not know, but adu 00:22:13 hellochaf. 00:22:24 * boily thwacks shachaf. 0.8. 00:23:00 question: what is Algae II? is it an esolang, or an abstract concept? 00:23:32 `? algae 00:24:05 algae? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:24:08 `? alg. ii 00:24:16 Algae II, the successor class to Algae I. Discusses hydroponics and such. 00:24:25 `culprits wisdom/alg. ii 00:24:37 boily: i believe it is a pun on algebra hth 00:24:50 abstract concept it is tdh 00:24:56 boily boily oerjan hppavilion[1] 00:24:58 "Algebra II" is a standard high school mathematics class in the united states hth 00:25:37 but Algae II typically is taught to much younger children 00:25:50 as part of the Hooked on Hydroponics program 00:28:46 ... 00:34:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:34:34 What does this channel think of AOP? 00:34:52 @messages-lud 00:34:52 oerjan said 1h 1m 42s ago: myname: I was just being a bad person. <-- please report to the next #esoteric sensitivity bootcamp hth 00:35:03 hppavellon[1]. how do you typeset an ő? 00:35:14 boily: I don't? 00:35:53 boily: iirc \H{o} 00:35:59 -!- tromp has joined. 00:36:23 #Tromp2016 00:36:58 * oerjan is going to guess tromp has heard enough of those jokes to be sick of them. 00:37:23 oerjan: when did that ever stop this channel before hth 00:37:41 *twh 00:37:46 oerjan: tdh, but I was mislead by the error message. the ős were fine, I just forgot to escape b_jonas' underscore. 00:37:54 s/lead/led/ 00:37:54 aha 00:38:05 oerjan: didn't it read like a rhetorical question hth 00:38:14 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:38:55 ending rhetorical questions in hth is scow. 00:39:16 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:39:28 hm a missed canaima 00:39:48 boily: What are you doing, anyway? 00:40:07 ? canaima 00:40:10 hppavilion[1]: updating the wisdom PDF! 00:40:14 boily: Yay! 00:40:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:40:29 oerjan: what's the correct ending twh 00:40:43 boily: Why not just script it to generate a new wisdom PDF once a month? 00:41:23 `learn Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people that have no idea why they're here. 00:41:37 Learned 'canaima': Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people that have no idea why they're here. 00:41:40 `learn Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here. 00:41:43 Relearned 'canaima': Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here. 00:41:56 oerjan: Um, shachaf forgot to ` 00:42:03 hth 00:42:15 well, that would have just been another line of spam 00:42:22 this outcome was optimal 00:42:35 shachaf: My point is that oerjan didn't check if canaima was already defined 00:42:44 shachaf: Unless they did it via PM 00:42:54 oerjan knows the wisdom database by heart 00:43:02 and anyway `learn confirmed that it wasn't defined 00:43:11 hppavilion[1]: well... it's *slightly* more complex than that. also, some people in this here chännel like to make my life harder by being LaTeXly creative. 00:43:20 I'm already missing: 00:43:22 `? ^ 00:44:00 boily: Ah 00:44:05 ​^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the exclusive-or operator; ∧ (also notated by /\ or &) is the and (conjunction) operator; ^ (also notated by ↑ or ** or ⋆) is the power operator. 00:44:40 Wooooooooow. 00:44:46 I somehow never noticed that 00:44:56 _\/_ 00:45:00 \_/ 00:45:02 if you have a Github account, I'll add you to the List. you'll have Full Commit Access! 00:45:16 I do, but I probably should not be trusted with such a thing 00:46:37 boily: Unless you want e.g. a one-sixth-functional industrial-grade search engine for Wisdom that will never be touched again 00:47:07 Though an GUI for browsing wisdom- complete with links and a bit of markup- might actually be a good idea... 00:49:12 doesn't pdf support links these days anyway 00:49:21 oerjan: True 00:49:30 oerjan: But it doesn't have a high-level scripting language 00:57:12 it does. Adobe Reader supports JavaScript. 00:57:41 also, did you know you could embede interactive 3D content in a PDF? in two widely-undocumented idiosyncratic formats? 01:01:06 brontosaurii had mapoly teeth??? 01:04:07 *brontosauri 01:06:36 oerjan: that's not the plural of brontosaurius hth 01:06:47 indeed 01:07:04 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:07:13 it would be the vocative, though. 01:08:17 brontosaure? 01:09:27 presumably. 01:09:37 `le/rn Canada/We apologize for Canada's lack of existence. 01:09:46 Relearned «canada» 01:10:48 -!- tromp has joined. 01:12:14 #tromp2016 01:12:42 AVE BRONTOSAVRE. PINSENDI TE SALUTANT. 01:13:13 boily: hey :( 01:13:32 sorry. 01:13:41 * boily untromp2016s tromp 01:14:00 i meant the canada. what was it anyway, the browser isn't loading. 01:14:04 oh hm 01:14:14 oh there 01:14:37 #c++2017 01:14:43 you want to rebigscotlandify Canada? 01:15:26 oerjan: how about a command to view the previous version of a file 01:15:46 `le/rn Canada/Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big. 01:15:52 or even a list of the contents of every file that the last command modified, pre-modification 01:16:27 Relearned «canada» 01:16:58 boily: hey i wasn't confirming 01:17:33 shachaf: be my guest 01:17:33 aarghghghrghrgghhghghrg. 01:17:49 i was trying to catch up to recent HackEgo changes 01:21:32 -!- centrinia has joined. 01:21:44 `echo a > test 01:21:44 a > test 01:21:46 oops 01:21:50 `` echo a > test 01:21:59 `? code 01:22:04 `` echo b > test 01:22:40 No output. 01:22:48 HackEgo: you're too slow hth 01:23:35 `learn_append comics The content of this list is not to be questioned. 01:24:01 * boily mapoles the HackEgo 01:24:57 fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT! 01:25:53 Can't open wisdom/comic: No such file or directory. \ Learned 'comic': The content of this list is not to be questioned. 01:25:56 ​[11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,1555466973690094680980000956080767,13720946704494913791885940266665466978579582015128512190078... 01:25:57 No output. 01:26:11 wat 01:27:46 `mkx bin/before//lastfiles | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; hg cat -r -2 "$f"; done 01:27:47 bin/before 01:27:51 `` rm wisdom/comic 01:27:53 No output. 01:27:54 `before 01:27:58 wisdom/comic//The content of this list is not to be questioned. 01:28:05 hm 01:28:09 `lastfiles 01:28:09 wisdom/comic 01:28:10 -!- XorSwap has joined. 01:28:20 why is bin/before not in lastfiles twh 01:28:29 `cat bin/lastfiles 01:28:30 hg log -l 1 --template "{files}\n" 01:28:34 `` echo -n ' The content of this list is not to be questioned.' >>wisdom/comics 01:28:36 No output. 01:28:37 `` hg log -l 1 01:28:40 changeset: 7381:dd55338ff279 \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Apr 14 00:28:35 2016 +0000 \ summary: ` echo -n \' The content of this list is not to be questioned.\' >>wisdom/comics 01:28:49 bon. m'a finir par l'avoir, maudite commande de mes deux. 01:30:26 boily: wat 01:30:29 `? comics 01:30:31 Recommended comics include Genius Stick, Stuck Girl, and Home of the Order. \ The content of this list is not to be questioned. 01:31:08 `revert 01:31:21 rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done. 01:31:23 `? comics 01:31:24 Recommended comics include Genius Stick, Stuck Girl, and Home of the Order. 01:31:47 * boily can't append 01:31:56 `le/rn_append comics/The content of this list is not to be questioned. 01:31:59 Learned 'comics': Recommended comics include Genius Stick, Stuck Girl, and Home of the Order. The content of this list is not to be questioned. 01:32:50 `rm test 01:32:52 No output. 01:32:54 `before 01:32:55 -!- XorSwap has quit (Client Quit). 01:33:01 test//b 01:33:56 ♪ DING ♪ new PDF version! updated #, A, B and C entries. 01:34:14 coppro: copprello! PDF update! 01:35:01 `learn Canada is a conspiracy invented by Big Maple to keep people from the truth. 01:35:04 Relearned 'canada': Canada is a conspiracy invented by Big Maple to keep people from the truth. 01:35:07 `before 01:35:08 wisdom/canada//Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big. 01:35:13 `revert 01:35:15 rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done. 01:35:19 oerjan: hth 01:35:42 boily: :O 01:35:46 boily: Homestuck AND PDF 01:35:51 it's like my birthday! 01:35:53 which was this week! 01:35:55 err last week! 01:35:56 boily: we already have pbflist 01:35:57 but still! 01:36:01 boily: might as well add pdflist hth 01:36:09 if you can figure out how to make a backwards b 01:37:34 I should chapterize the *lists... 01:37:38 d hth 01:38:04 hppavilion[1]: I didn't catch your github username? 01:38:14 boily: I didn't give it :P 01:38:40 damn. I thought I was being smooth :D 01:38:56 you're playing hard to commit, I see. 01:44:21 -!- jix has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:44:28 -!- jix has joined. 01:50:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 01:52:06 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:52:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:52:24 -!- dingbat has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:57:27 -!- Kaynato has joined. 02:01:40 boily: ... 02:02:31 Why has nobody made a language called *C? 02:10:57 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:12:32 hppavilion[1]: one day you'll slip, and that info will be mine. mwah ah ah. 02:18:58 boily: I want to see a grammar-type that can parse all decidable grammars. That would be nice. Except for when people actually use it to parse a non-context-free grammar. Then it's just painful. 02:20:38 eh? 02:21:10 boily: A grammar type (like LR or LALR or Recursive-descent) 02:21:32 boily: That can parse all decidable grammars (including, for example, the Language of Primes in Ternary) 02:22:22 I have a feeling you'd hit Gödel sooner or later in there. probably the former. 02:22:41 boily: The tarpit version is BNF with the new operators $, ++, and --{}{} 02:22:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:23:13 boily: Probably not; It's just the grammatical equivalent of a TM 02:23:24 (TMs represent grammars, remember?) 02:23:36 I don't remember, but I'll trust you on that. 02:23:52 CT and all that sort of thing, functors between TMs and grammars. 02:24:06 boily: Yeah, a TM is said to accept a string (as part of the language it represents) if... it halts. Shit. 02:24:37 I guess Godel might just show up in the form of the Halting Problem 02:24:45 Wow, that guy is tricky. 02:25:04 and strike. 02:25:23 time to go espouse the shape of a mattress... 02:25:30 -!- boily has quit (Quit: GRABBING CHICKEN). 02:25:31 boily: Wait, no, but it's a BNF for all /decidable/ grammars 02:25:33 Shit 02:26:13 @tell boily [the moment after you left:] boily: Wait, no, but it's a BNF for all /decidable/ grammars // And halting is undecidable 02:26:13 Consider it noted. 02:28:34 "LR(k) grammars can be efficiently parsed with an execution time essentially proportional to the length of the string."[7] 02:28:34 For every k≥1, "a language can be generated by an LR(k) grammar if and only if it is deterministic [and context-free], if and only if it can be generated by an LR(1) grammar." 02:28:53 Um, can k be <= 1 and != 0? 02:31:48 Here's a rather strange idea 02:32:03 A parser that accepts an infinite string that follows some combinatorial pattern 02:32:05 And parses it 02:32:09 (based on a grammar) 02:32:11 In finite time 02:32:21 shachaf: Have you heard of such a thing? 02:32:25 ? 02:32:54 Ah. 02:32:55 shachaf: A program to parse infinite strings in finite time, given that the infinite string is representable in finite space 02:33:14 Well, depends on how you represent it. 02:33:16 Using some sort of lazy-evaluated sequence combinators or somesuch 02:33:35 If you represent an infinite string as a Turing machine that generates it, for example, you won't have much luck. 02:33:43 I would doubt it 02:34:22 shachaf: I'm thinking that you have some primitive set of generators (likely hauntingly similar to S and K, knowing the way CS works) that accept generators or strings and produce new strings 02:34:49 Well, you don't want anything Turing-complete. 02:34:56 shachaf: I would think not 02:37:14 A primitive set something like like cycle [...], reverse [...], chain [...], and filter f [...] (where f is some simple String -> Bool function defined in a sublanguage) 02:38:14 Oh, and [...] is a special syntax for directly declaring a sequence 02:38:28 Wait, chain needs to have two arguments 02:38:53 cycle seq is the first element in seq, then the second, then the third, forever 02:39:06 And when it reaches the end it starts over 02:39:26 reverse seq reverses a finite sequence 02:40:00 chain seq tfr returns each element in the first seq, then, when it runs out, each element in the second 02:40:35 And filter f seq returns each element in seq s.t. f returns true 02:42:13 f can be made from q NAND p, contains(seq1, seq2), firstNCharacters(seq, n), and c == d (where c and d are sequences) 02:42:21 Sequences can only contain characters 02:42:29 shachaf: is that a good set of primitives? 02:43:26 Wait, contains has to be contains(seq, c) because f is applied character-by-character (if it isn't, we get dangerously close to tag systems) 02:43:52 Why are you asking me? 02:44:07 shachaf: Because you responded last time 02:44:43 shachaf: And I figured there was a chance that you wanted to see my answer to your ~question 02:57:21 https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/4csbma/kickstarter_nonstarters_the_new_era_of_modern/ 03:03:18 <\oren\> bah, the real future of computers is decimal! 03:03:28 <\oren\> or more like the past 03:06:35 -!- me2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:06:55 -!- me2 has joined. 03:08:35 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 03:09:47 -!- XorSwap has joined. 03:10:04 Sgeo_: I'm going to go cry now 03:10:25 \oren\: The REAL future of computers is in pii-cimal 03:10:41 * oerjan wonders if hppavilion[1] has even heard of a general chomsky grammar. 03:11:15 * hppavilion[1] googles general chomsky grammar 03:12:13 * hppavilion[1] cannot find the wikipedia article on it, and is thus scared 03:14:37 oerjan: Are there any widely-used programming languages which are of a regular grammar? 03:14:42 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:21:02 hppavilion[1]: i think i used the wrong technical term. try chomsky hierarchy. 03:21:32 hppavilion[1]: maybe forth counts :P 03:21:32 oerjan: Well I've heard of /that/ 03:21:39 oerjan: That's what I thought 03:21:48 oerjan: Though doesn't forth have nesting? 03:21:53 Defining new words? 03:22:04 Wait, maybe that doesn't let you nest 03:22:35 maybe not forth then. 03:22:50 i don't know what else would count. 03:23:14 I WILL BE USING Van Wijngaarden grammarS FROM NOW ON 03:23:21 THEY SOUND AWESOME 03:24:16 oerjan: chomsky is a linguist not a general hth 03:24:55 (strictly speaking, I will be using some modification I create that makes it uselessly more powerful; perhaps including the ability to recognize whether a given TM halts in later forms) 03:24:57 or is general chomsky's grammar related to general tso's chicken? 03:27:39 Is there a pseudo-solution to the Halting Problem that, given a program, will tell you whether or not it will halt, with the occasional possibility of false positives or negatives? (I (but not O) is forbidden for simplicity) 03:28:16 It would be cool if there was a pseudo-solution (sort of like those pseudo-counterexamples to Fermat's Last Theorem) that I could write into a compiler to freak out CS students who use it 03:29:07 Yes. 03:29:12 willHalt(_) = true 03:29:17 shachaf: That's cheating 03:29:24 If it doesn't halt, just tell them they haven't run it for long enough. 03:29:40 OK, just run it for BB(n) steps for small n. 03:30:05 shachaf: But you can write a program that /very clearly/ won't halt, but the compiler would still say it will 03:31:03 (alternatively, a language that is /very nearly/- but not quite- TC (including intermediate-level CS experiment problems and the kinds of things a CS student would test with, but excluding really obscure ones), for which halting is decidable) 04:11:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:11:27 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:27:28 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:38:47 -!- tromp has joined. 04:51:39 <\oren\> C without malloc is a push down automaton. 04:53:31 <\oren\> (unless you use undefined behaviour to write our own malloc) 04:55:01 C with or without malloc is a FSA. 04:56:06 <\oren\> oh, right. 04:58:29 pooch-down automaton 04:59:26 On a purely unrelated note, is there a surgeon in the bay area who can replace my head? Because fuck my head. 05:00:23 How's your head? 05:00:55 In quite a bit of pain at the moment! 05:06:41 pikhq: might i interest you in this http://www.amazon.com/On-Having-No-Head-Rediscovery/dp/1878019198 hth 05:06:53 s/this // 05:08:36 Thx 05:13:08 pikhq: do you just mean that you have a headache 05:13:23 Yes. 05:13:57 Which is a common occurance for me. 05:15:53 -!- Kaynato has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:25:34 \oren\: are you sure? (notwithstanding the bounded storage) you can access an arbitrary portion of the stack from C, which is vastly more powerful than PDA 05:26:51 \oren\: one direct counterexample: http://mazonka.com/brainf/stackbfi.c 05:26:58 lifthrasiir: Accessing other stack frames is, of course, UB. :) 05:27:25 pikhq: unless you chain the existing stack frame with a pointer. 05:27:33 Right, yes, that's valid. 05:27:36 stackbfi is exactly that kind of thing 05:27:37 Like what you linked to there. 05:28:00 Neat trick, honestly. 05:28:07 I like that 05:28:09 If very much limited. 05:28:36 I remember a similarly constructed BF interpreter which won in IOCCC 05:29:30 Though it's *slightly* incorrect: there may exist valid negative return values for getchar(). 05:29:40 (i.e. EOF is not the *only* possible return value that's negative) 05:29:50 (this is because char may be signed) 05:30:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:31:01 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:31:25 -!- nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:32:36 -!- yorick has joined. 05:33:12 -!- nisstyre has joined. 05:35:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:35:55 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:46:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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09:42:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:54:25 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar. 10:31:00 -!- rdococ_ has joined. 10:33:01 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:33:24 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 10:33:34 -!- rdaway has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:33:36 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:33:36 -!- hydraz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:34:07 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:34:07 -!- newsham has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:38:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:40:39 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:49:48 -!- coppro has joined. 10:54:09 -!- heroux has joined. 10:54:42 -!- earendel has joined. 11:19:38 -!- boily has joined. 11:21:28 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:30:33 -!- hydraz has joined. 11:30:33 -!- hydraz has quit (Changing host). 11:30:33 -!- hydraz has joined. 11:31:55 -!- newsham has joined. 11:41:07 -!- me2 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:41:27 -!- me2 has joined. 11:45:22 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SCIENTIFIC CHICKEN). 12:03:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:20:32 Is there a way to do "git diff --name-status", "git diff --cached --name-status" or the combination "git status -s" but also show list unchanged files? 12:26:04 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:26:21 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:27:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:28:45 -!- kline_ has changed nick to kline. 12:43:10 -!- jaboja has joined. 12:46:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:46:37 http://hjson.org/ 12:55:20 -!- gamemanj has joined. 13:04:56 -!- me4 has joined. 13:05:39 -!- Froox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:06:04 -!- Froox has joined. 13:08:41 -!- fractal has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:10:58 -!- me2 has quit (*.net *.split). 13:12:34 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:21:30 pikhq: I think even if char is signed, getchar() will return the "unsigned" value as an int 13:30:27 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:35:41 -!- fractal has joined. 13:37:03 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:50:57 -!- p34k has joined. 14:10:06 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 14:14:50 -!- _rdococ has joined. 14:17:07 -!- p34k has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:15 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:15 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:16 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:22 -!- nortti has joined. 14:17:28 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:17:34 -!- coppro has joined. 14:17:54 -!- me4 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:54 -!- rdococ_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:55 -!- acertain has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:55 -!- digitalcold has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:18:03 -!- digitalcold has joined. 14:18:11 -!- me4 has joined. 14:18:17 -!- yorick has joined. 14:19:03 -!- acertain has joined. 14:19:18 -!- earendel has joined. 14:22:20 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:28:09 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:41:31 -!- I has joined. 14:41:51 -!- I has changed nick to Guest42662. 14:47:11 -!- p34k has joined. 14:47:52 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:48:28 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:48:29 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:48:53 -!- Melvar has joined. 14:49:04 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:49:04 -!- digitalcold has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:49:05 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:49:05 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:49:06 -!- Yurume_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:49:28 -!- gamemanj has joined. 14:49:50 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 14:50:34 -!- digitalcold has joined. 14:50:55 -!- yorick has joined. 14:50:55 -!- yorick has quit (Changing host). 14:50:55 -!- yorick has joined. 14:52:37 -!- Yurume_ has joined. 14:56:00 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:03:34 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 15:07:50 -!- heroux has joined. 15:30:30 -!- Guest42662 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:35:04 -!- I has joined. 15:35:11 * gamemanj sees that "yorick" joined, and is tempted to reset the "Shakespeare reference counter"... 15:35:29 -!- I has changed nick to Guest25716. 15:53:15 -!- Elronnd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:53:37 -!- Guest25716 has changed nick to `^_^v. 16:03:25 -!- Elronnd has joined. 16:03:36 -!- Elronnd has quit (Client Quit). 16:06:40 -!- j-bot has joined. 16:07:42 -!- Elronnd has joined. 16:08:27 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:21:48 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:31:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:35:17 Why the heck can't we finally have a programming language standard library specification where the array sort functions and ordered-dictionary types and similar are specified in such a way that they spell out the precise guarantees even if the underlying comparison function is nondeterministic or not transitive? 16:36:16 We don't live in the 1980s anymore when it made sense to write quicksort functions that will actually write the arrays out of bounds if the comparison function is invalid. 16:37:05 I think most of the implementations we actually use are behaved sanely even for wrong comparison functions, but nobody bothers to guarantee this in specs, so I may have to read and fork existing implementations just to be able to guarantee this in the future. 16:37:18 If the comparison function is nondeterministic or not transitive, then... is there any one correct sorted order? 16:37:40 C++ specifically makes it undefined behaviour if you use a wrong comparison function, so it can use one of those qsort functions that just crash. 16:38:31 gamemanj: no, but the sort function can still guarantee that it gives a permutation of the input, which is important, and it could still give bounds on the runtime. 16:41:08 The specs can even go further, for compare functions that are partly well-behaved: if the range of values has a (non-observable theoretical) partial equivalence sigma, and a total order on the equivalence classes of sigma, and the comparison function behaves consistently right for two non-equivalent elements by comparing their equivalence classes, and can behave in any way for two equivalent elements; 16:41:41 Simple solution: Why do you even have non-deterministic comparison functions in your code? 16:42:00 then a well-written sort function could guarantee that the output is a permutation of the input such that non-equivalent elements are ordered correctly in the output. 16:43:45 Under what practical situation do you get into such a situation? 16:43:47 gamemanj: for bug isolation in cases when the comparison has a bug (I can point to at least one such case), or for implementing a safe high-level language that isn't allowed to crash but exposes a sort function or ordered-dictionary type with arbitrary comparison functions defined in that high-level language, including possibly sandbox languages that execute untrusted code. 16:44:01 s/comparison/comparison implementation/ 16:45:00 The first case is entirely practical, for in theory you'd just implement the correct comparison function instead of a buggy one. 16:45:10 Bug isolation, ok, that makes sense. As for a safe language that isn't allowed to crash... new byte[0xFFFFFFFF] 16:45:15 The second one is both theoretical and practical. 16:45:35 -!- Reece` has joined. 16:46:12 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:46:48 "Safety" is impossible if the user can consume all the resources on the system, which means a completely safe language has to keep track of memory and CPU usage. 16:46:52 gamemanj: oh come on, there are various different definitions for what sort of safety a language guarantees. I know a language (whether safe or not) can't be total, but some languages guarantee that they at least abort safely rather than trashing memory, even if you run out of memory. That's definitely theoretically possible (although there are practical bugs in implementations). 16:47:19 gamemanj: I'm not going to try to spell out a particular definition of safety here, and there's more than one non-equivalent ones. 16:47:39 The point I'm trying to make is that if sort goes into an infinite loop, there needs to be detection in place for this sort of case anyway. 16:47:57 But even for a not-really-safe language like perl, it's better to use perl 5.8 (or something) which has a sort function that doesn't just segfault if you give it the wrong comparison function (as a bug). 16:49:23 gamemanj: you can write a sort that doesn't go into an infinite loop even if the comparison function is wrong, but I'm more worried about duplicating and losing items of the array, or indexing past an array, rather than an infinite loop. Bad sort implementations do the latter two. 16:49:54 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:53:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:55:47 Well, a sort function should definitely not SIGSEGV or outright break if it's given a weird comparison function. To me, an infinite loop makes sense simply because if it's inconsistent, the array is never "sorted". 17:05:52 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:11:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:27:48 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:51:25 -!- iconmaster has joined. 17:51:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 17:52:04 I have managed to convince myself to a point of view where I don't see Hitler as evil. 17:52:18 This is cool. 17:52:34 well, not really 17:52:40 ... 17:53:50 gamemanj: I see him as a deeply disturbed man who should have been seeing a psychiatrist instead of being put into a position of power 17:54:12 (and, if myname was responding to me, then the above message is directed at them too) 17:54:13 So, basically, you don't see him as evil, you see him as nuts. 17:54:17 gamemanj: Yes 17:54:34 ...the difference? 17:54:54 gamemanj: In fact, I prefer to see him as a person who genuinely /thought/ he was doing the right thing, but who was so screwed up that he didn't realize that what he was doing very clearly wasn't 17:54:54 how does being nuts imply not being evil? 17:55:05 myname: See ^ 17:55:11 myname: Insanity defense, probably. 17:55:16 Now, it's not necessarily the accurate interpretation 17:55:25 But it's a pretty decent interpretation 17:55:36 so, you basically say chaotic evil doesn't have to be evil? 17:55:38 And now for something completely different to break hppavilion[1]'s doublethink concentration: "Alas, poor yorick! I knew him, Horatio: A fellow of infinite jest..." 17:55:51 (I mean, Gravity also isn't "necessarily the accurate interpretation") 17:56:04 gamemanj: It's not doublethink 17:56:37 Ok, true, it's not contradictory, it's just... how to put it... 17:57:20 If you want to go into alternate theories like that, you might want to look at the British Empire and the state of India around that time. 17:57:42 Then you'll find yourself saying "Everybody was like that at the time, Hitler was just a step further" 17:57:51 i wouldn't say that i need to believe i am evil is a necessary part in being evil 17:58:05 gamemanj: If we keep viewing Hitler as an alien-warlord-god-king sent from hell to do nothing but kill humanity, we lose sight of what is more accurate, that being that hitler was a deeply damaged human being who /really/ shouldn't have been put in control of a country 17:58:32 that still doesn't make him not evil 17:59:02 Nobody said Hitler was an alien-warlord-god-king, and everybody agrees he shouldn't have been put in control of a country. Actions define morality, unless they have good justification. 17:59:07 myname: What he did was most certainly very, /very/ wrong, but if he does not realize that then I can't in good conscience consider him evil 17:59:30 s/does/did/ 18:00:11 how so? 18:00:30 This POV is not so much a meaningful opinion on things that matter as it is a way of conveying a message about the nature of morality 18:00:36 So in your worldview, if I teleported the world's gold into the Sun, but I thought the gold was infectious or something, then I wouldn't be evil? 18:00:43 `olsit 1033 18:00:43 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: olsit: not found 18:00:45 gamemanj: Correct 18:00:46 * gamemanj gets out his TODO list 18:00:49 `olist 1033 18:00:50 olist 1033: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 18:00:55 gamemanj: Why would you be considered evil? 18:01:17 * gamemanj writes "1. Reprogram mind to assert that gold is infectious" 18:01:26 gamemanj: That's cheating. 18:01:37 My past self would be evil, 18:01:42 Yes 18:01:43 but my post-mindwipe self would not. 18:01:47 Pretty much 18:02:10 Which means my post-mindwipe self gets off scot-free since that's the version of me running around teleporting gold. 18:02:23 hppavilion[1]: have a look at the anime "eden of the east" 18:02:33 gamemanj: You (post-mindwipe) were just trying to help and do what you thought was right, so you can't be considered evil 18:02:45 myname: I might 18:02:48 yes you can 18:03:06 myname: To consider them evil would be a perversion of the concept of right and wrong, IMHO 18:03:16 why shouldn't i be able to consider someone evil just because he doesn't himself? 18:04:15 myname: Because, traditionally (in the way everyone else sees it), evil means doing morality-- things even though you know they're morality--. 18:04:28 no 18:04:42 gamemanj: myname: The point of this exercise is not that "Hitler wasn't evil", the point is "Morality is hard, justice is complicated" 18:05:00 evil in a society means doing things against morality of the society, no matter of you actually knowing or not 18:05:14 myname: That can be how you define it, but that's not how I define it 18:05:28 hppavilion[1]: Solution: Eliminate justice, as it is an unnecessary complexity. 18:05:48 myname: I would call "doing stuff that society says you shouldn't do" is a "Moral Transgression" or something. 18:06:11 that's how societies work 18:06:13 myname: "evil" is when you sin (which is not the religious term, it's just one I stole from religion) 18:06:23 So, basically, you have "doing something wrong but not knowing about it", "doing something wrong and knowing about it"? 18:06:39 The result is still the same. 18:06:54 yeah, i would call it intentional evil and unintentional evil 18:06:58 myname: And sinning is to violate morality despite knowing that morality says not to 18:07:04 myname: That works; the end result is the same 18:07:19 myname: But I prefer to give them distinct names; just my preference. 18:07:20 just because you don't intend to do evil doesn't mean you don't 18:07:28 I'm pretty sure that if you drank a ton of alcohol, and then, being too drunk to remember that you aren't supposed to drunk-drive, drove a car, and it crashed, you would still lose your license. 18:07:45 hppavilion[1]: so you are saying killing a person isn't a sin if i don't know better? 18:07:52 myname: Correct. 18:07:57 myname: This isn't religious sin 18:08:14 myname: OK, but should someone who commits an unintentional evil be punished? (assuming retributivism, which is a debate unto itself) 18:08:19 hppavilion[1]: i repeat my anime recommendation: eden of the east 18:08:24 myname: Yes, I will write that down 18:08:29 it plays a bit with the idea of gamemanj 18:09:14 another anime with a "fun" idea of morals: Death Note! 18:09:14 myname: The idea of gamemanj? 18:09:28 gamemanj: There's an anime about the mere concept of you? 18:09:34 not that I know of 18:09:47 If there is, do tell them to stop stalking me 18:10:35 (and inquire as to how they'd manage it without my noticing if the whole anime was about the concept of me, meaning they'd have to keep a close eye) 18:10:36 well, if you ever do anything remotely like watching anime, you most likely have alreqdy watched death note 18:10:44 myname: I chose the word "sin" because it fits with religion well 18:11:01 myname: Without (the tree of) knowledge, there can be no sin 18:11:08 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:11:32 hppavilion[1]: that's great, so everybody can go to heaven if they just wipe their memories 18:11:46 myname: Yes, but it wouldn't be "you" going to heaven 18:11:55 myname: Also, the analogy stops before heaven 18:12:27 GTG 18:12:51 So what happens if the first thing you do after doing evil stuff is wipe your memories of it, but store them in a way that you'll collect them after being deemed "not evil"? 18:13:13 (Yes this is an obvious reference to something we have already mentioned.) 18:17:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:17:32 lambdabot, hmm. 18:18:02 ah it's back. 18:18:04 -!- rdococ_ has joined. 18:18:52 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:20:12 -!- nycs has joined. 18:20:32 -!- acertain has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:20:32 -!- _rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:20:32 -!- hydraz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:21:04 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:21:05 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:21:05 -!- newsham has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:21:26 -!- gamemanj has joined. 18:21:44 -!- lambdabot has joined. 18:26:11 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:29:16 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:32:38 -!- heroux has joined. 18:32:48 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:33:25 -!- acertain has joined. 18:35:59 -!- lambdabot has joined. 18:38:41 @botsnack 18:38:41 :) 18:38:56 poor thing 18:39:12 * gamemanj thinks for a short while... 18:39:46 ^def feedlambda bf ++++++++[>++++>++++++++++<<-]++++++++++>>---><[->+>+<<]>-------------.++.+++++++++++++.+++++.-.-----.-------------.++.++++++++.<<<.>>> 18:40:05 ... 18:40:08 fungot? 18:40:10 feedlambda? 18:40:12 ....noooooo 18:40:19 fungot's gone 18:40:30 I was going to have fungot feed lambdabot with a botsnack 18:42:44 -!- tromp has joined. 18:43:05 what happened to fungot... :( 18:45:48 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:47:30 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:49:29 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:50:48 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:50:54 -!- deltab has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:51:26 -!- deltab has joined. 18:52:43 Fun... "Investigating possible switch failure impacting NLCKVME5-1, NLCKVME5-2" 18:53:28 Is freenode falling apart? 18:54:57 this is lambdabot 18:55:06 but freenode also seems to have some trouble 18:56:07 -!- lambdabot has joined. 18:56:15 sets of people being booted off at a time, "some trouble" 18:56:31 I think we need duct tape 18:56:42 Or at least, that's what I think you call it 18:56:52 I prefer the name "sticky tape", but whatever 18:57:04 (NLCKVME5-2 is the server lambdabot's VM is on) 18:57:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 18:57:38 We call it "silver tape" over here 18:58:57 point is, find the pipes that are leaking connections, and cover it up with tape. Problem solved. 18:59:30 Luckily in these areas we usually have infinite tape 18:59:43 the #esoteric areas I mean 19:00:29 infinite sticky tape and infinite programming languages that compile to other programming languages solves all problems 19:00:42 gamemanj: if you're unlucky you'll just run out of oxygen 19:01:39 ...wait, what, the pipes have ALREADY FLOODED the room??? 19:07:21 @metar lowi 19:07:22 LOWI 141750Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW065 10/04 Q1013 NOSIG 19:10:48 lambdabot: again! 19:12:40 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:13:39 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:17:43 -!- hydraz has joined. 19:17:43 -!- hydraz has quit (Changing host). 19:17:43 -!- hydraz has joined. 19:19:10 -!- newsham has joined. 19:24:08 -!- lambdabot has joined. 19:26:17 -!- erdic has joined. 19:28:11 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:30:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:34:05 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:34:36 [wiki] [[Юᓂ곧⎔]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46776 * B jonas * (+1213) Created page with "'''Юᓂ곧⎔''' is an unfinished plan for a programming language by David Madore in the blog post [http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2004-12-03.0813.html#d.2004-12-03.08..." 19:34:54 Question. Should I count Юᓂ곧⎔ as an ordinary esolang or a joke language? 19:36:31 [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46777&oldid=46726 * B jonas * (+18) 19:41:39 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:42:35 coppro: do you band with other scs of the hunt 19:50:44 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 19:51:16 -!- newsham has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:51:16 -!- hydraz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:51:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:52:11 -!- lambdabot has joined. 19:52:52 P⚭Q ∧ P ∈ 𝔻𝕣 → Q ∈ 𝔻𝕣* 19:53:07 `? codoctor 19:53:25 codoctor? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:53:42 `le/rn codoctor/P⚭Q ∧ P ∈ 𝔻𝕣 → Q ∈ 𝔻𝕣* 19:53:48 Learned «codoctor» 19:55:49 -!- centrinia has joined. 19:56:53 centrinia: Hello. New? 19:56:54 -!- centrinia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:57:13 Huh, centrina was on ##math too 19:57:22 *centrinia 19:57:45 centrinia isn't new 19:58:24 int-e: Ah, I've never seen em talk 19:59:51 @ask variable What's it like being a Variable Constantinople? How do your countrymen react to you when you change values? 19:59:51 Consider it noted. 20:00:07 (I did not want to forget that joke before variable comes online) 20:01:03 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:03:18 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 20:10:16 -!- earendel has joined. 20:14:26 -!- centrinia has joined. 20:19:47 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 20:19:58 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 20:20:02 slightly weird situation here 20:20:11 I have a zombie process I'm trying to get rid of 20:20:24 I attached a debugger to its parent and forced it to run waitpid/wait, but it blocks 20:20:26 any ideas? 20:21:32 ais523: Aim for the head hth 20:21:40 not helpful 20:21:42 ais523: Shotgun blast to the head should kill any zombie 20:21:58 ais523: Except chicken zombies 20:22:00 * hppavilion[2] shivers 20:22:07 the normal advice is "to kill a zombie you kill its parents" but in this case the parent process is upstart 20:22:28 ais523: Try reboot? 20:22:38 that works but this problem has happened twice now 20:22:42 and I don't want to reboot every time 20:22:53 ais523: *n?x, I assume? 20:22:55 and it's not a situation that /should/ be able to occur (zombie process that doesn't show up on wait) 20:22:57 and yes 20:23:39 End-user programming is an interesting thing; however, the only form of it I know of that is accessible to non-programmers is spreadsheets 20:25:04 (And filter config and such, I suppose, but that is usually absurdly abstracted) 20:25:52 ais523: Are you in the TC camp or the TFP camp, OOC? 20:25:59 I think FSAs may actually be useful AND accessible for EUP 20:28:47 Hex spreadsheet? 20:28:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:28:54 -!- hydraz has joined. 20:28:54 -!- hydraz has quit (Changing host). 20:28:54 -!- hydraz has joined. 20:37:39 (in a "narrative" voice) "Little did ais513 know, the 'zombie' process was actually a cockatrice corpse." 20:38:13 ...wait, 523. 20:38:21 s/513/523/ 20:41:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:41:51 so when I detached the debugger, my entire login session went down 20:42:01 and the login screen program (IIRC lightdm broke) 20:42:14 then when I shut down the system manually from ctrl-alt-f1, it didn't shut down 20:42:36 and not even alt-sysrq-o could power the system off (alt-sysrq-b worked though) 20:43:27 -!- tromp has joined. 20:44:57 ...uh, wow. 20:45:17 If you didn't look at the logs, my theory was the zombie process was a cockatrice corpse. 20:46:38 (Also, hydraz joined, left, then joined.) 20:47:57 gamemanj: I think you mean ais += 10 20:48:27 ...I also misspelt "ais523" as "ais513". 20:48:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:50:17 gamemanj: Yeah, that's the point 20:50:52 hppavilion[2]: I was explaining your comment because ais523 didn't see the context (the misspelling) 20:51:11 gamemanj: ais513 -> 513; ais523 -> 523; 523-513=10; .'. ais513+10=ais523 20:51:30 gamemanj: I invented a new pseudo-degree a little while ago, by the way. 20:51:35 ... 20:52:30 -!- newsham has joined. 20:52:34 gamemanj: The codoctorate. 20:52:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:52:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:53:02 Clearly, ais523 was here last time I brought this up 20:53:08 Oh, he's back. Joke rescinded. 20:53:41 gamemanj: Znc issues. 20:55:59 gamemanj? 20:58:16 ais523: I made a page for the esoteric language Юᓂ곧⎔ . Does that count as a language or a joke language, for the purposes of esowiki? 20:59:12 -!- ais523 has changed nick to l`. 20:59:15 -!- l` has changed nick to ais523. 20:59:20 ugh, typo 20:59:24 let me look at the page 21:00:24 b_jonas: given that it doesn't seem to define an actual language, just a source encoding 21:00:28 I'm not sure it's a language at all 21:00:35 people keep appearing and disappearing fast enough that I get the feeling it would be a bad idea to explain what happened while someone was out, since that would just ping other people and make more stuff happen 21:00:49 which would lead to an endless cascade of stuff happening! 21:01:14 ais523: encoding of the source of what? 21:01:16 in my case, it's basically that the cable connecting the laptop to the router is temperamental 21:01:24 -!- impomatic_ has joined. 21:01:24 b_jonas: the Юᓂ곧⎔ program 21:01:44 ais523: yes, it's definitely not a full definition for the language 21:01:59 -!- rdococ_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:05:32 ais523: but there's an example that shows how to define the main function, how to call a print (or printf, who knows) function, so it's not very far from a very sketchy description from which you could make a small but full language. It needs some conditionals, loops, returns, local variable declarations, and either parameter or return type declarations. 21:05:55 If you added those, it would already be a stack machine. 21:06:23 So I think it's an unfinished language basically. 21:06:45 Nobody completed a description or an implementation. 21:07:04 "conditionals, loops" (etcetc.)? But adding all that stuff might make it less esoteric! 21:07:51 ..."must not contain ASCII characters other than line feed"... 21:08:01 So, basically, everything is UTF-8. 21:08:04 why not use NEL? 21:08:17 it's non-ASCII, and stands for "next line" 21:08:25 and many standards have it as a valid vertical whitespace character 21:08:28 ais523: Yes, I was wondering on that. There's like three unicode characters like that. But I didn't define the language. 21:08:41 TBH it already looks nuts 21:08:45 although it's unclear what it's meant to do that's different from the other whitespace characters 21:08:49 maybe it stands for a CRLF pair? 21:08:57 Also, you better be Japanese if you want to use the language 21:09:13 since that way your function arguments make sense! 21:09:29 ...wait a sec... "and the corresponding name in katakana is used within the function definition." 21:09:46 an interpreter actually has to map from hiragana to katakana!?!?!? 21:09:48 ais523: I think it's just meant to unambiguously differentiate line separator from paragraph separator, just like how there are unicode characters to unambiguously split the ascii minus or the ascii quotes to different semantical and typographical values. 21:10:11 b_jonas: so what's unicode for next paragraph? 21:16:27 ais523: \x{2028} for line separator, \x{2029} for paragraph separator. both are different from NEL which is \x{85} 21:19:47 [wiki] [[Юᓂ곧⎔]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46778&oldid=46776 * B jonas * (+4) 21:21:40 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:22:34 -!- newsham has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:34:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:35:47 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:40:42 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 21:45:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:47:14 -!- Nithogg has joined. 22:20:25 -!- newsham has joined. 22:26:41 -!- tromp_ has joined. 22:40:21 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:56:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:56:01 -!- me4 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:57:15 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:57:40 -!- me4 has joined. 23:02:15 -!- nycs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:02:47 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 23:05:14 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk). 23:05:37 -!- centrinia has joined. 23:08:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:21:13 @metar ENVA 23:21:13 ENVA 142150Z 11006KT 9999 FEW015 SCT040 BKN050 01/00 Q1002 RMK WIND 670FT 12004KT 23:21:41 and here i wrote my dad just two days ago claiming spring was a-coming. 23:23:17 -!- boily has joined. 23:25:15 brrrroily 23:25:33 @metar CYUL 23:25:34 CYUL 142200Z 03011KT 30SM FEW240 09/M11 A3042 RMK CI2 SLP306 23:25:44 slightly less brrr 23:26:01 hellørjan! 23:26:07 it's disturbingly warm today! 23:26:18 @massages-loud 23:26:18 hppavilion[1] said 21h 5s ago: [the moment after you left:] boily: Wait, no, but it's a BNF for all /decidable/ grammars // And halting is undecidable 23:26:19 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:26:27 balancing out trondheim, i take. 23:26:35 hppavellon[\d]. 23:27:11 the Undecidement is Inevitable. 23:27:15 @metar ENVA 23:27:15 ENVA 142150Z 11006KT 9999 FEW015 SCT040 BKN050 01/00 Q1002 RMK WIND 670FT 12004KT 23:27:21 Ō_Ō! 23:27:43 it's been up to 12 or so in previous weeks 23:27:59 but then it all goes downhill again. 23:28:18 last week was undefined behaviour. 23:28:23 ic 23:28:53 but the Bixi bikes are out! new season starts tomorrow! woot! 23:29:17 ...okay 23:29:19 (probably won't be able to ride them until Saturday; today and tomorrow two cow orkers and I are at a formation.) 23:29:24 biking is fun! 23:29:50 ah a montreal thing 23:29:59 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:30:16 also an Ottawa thing. and a Melbourne thing. and Paris, IIRC hth 23:30:37 well we've had public bikes in trondheim too. dunno if it's still done. 23:32:36 what are bixi bikes 23:33:11 mynamello! they are public bikes you rent. 23:33:30 there are stations with locked bikes. you pay, pick one, ride, and lock it back at another station. 23:33:42 ok looks active http://www.bysykler.no/trondheim/kart-over-sykkelstativer 23:33:44 or you get a subscription, with a nifty magnetic key. 23:33:56 okay 23:34:05 different system, presumably. 23:36:13 they are fun! 23:36:30 i like my folding bike 23:37:24 oi Taneb 23:37:25 taneb! 23:37:28 is homestuck done yet 23:37:56 i saw homestuck was trending on reddit and that the subreddit was all people complaining 23:38:08 and i found this image which explained shit which has been obvious for ~4 years http://imgur.com/a/9ucF7 23:38:41 boily: iiuc the norwegian system uses a card 23:39:08 but otherwise sounds like you describe. 23:39:33 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it is. 23:39:52 and it was a confused, unsatisfying mess in the end? 23:39:54 Maybe now I'll read it. 23:40:31 oerjan: I'll take pictures. 23:40:52 glorious pictures, with closeups of all their fiddly parts. beautiful bikes... 23:41:02 boily: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncQsBzI-JHc 23:41:43 last time I clicked on one of your links I got a weird tune stuck in my head. 23:41:51 not sure if it's good for my sanity... 23:42:03 * boily clicks 23:42:04 true. on the other hand this is on topic. 23:42:07 * boily is happy 23:42:18 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:12 also i haven't mentioned i've been on a weird al binge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss_BmTGv43M 23:50:11 this one is hilarious. 23:50:48 best laugh i've had in ages 23:52:24 boily: have you figured out what a pooch-down automaton is yet twh 23:52:47 Hmmmm. 23:53:33 hellochaf. simple: it's a stack of pooches all the way down. then it's turtles, that are pooches too. 2016-04-15: 00:06:57 the pooch-turtle theory of gravitational collapse 00:10:20 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 00:14:55 -!- tromp has joined. 00:18:01 Marketing seems like it would be less fun than engineering 00:18:24 In marketing, the phrase "what if we just...?" is not applicable nearly as often 00:19:42 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:19:51 hppavilion[2]: hppavellon[1]. please github me your username. your codoctor is particularly nasty hth 00:21:31 boily: Nice try. 00:21:37 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1]. 00:21:46 * hppavilion[1] wonders if boily has tried google 00:22:06 boily: Also, "my codoctor is particularly nasty"? 00:22:31 in soviet russia, the evidence codoctors you hth 00:22:50 `? soviet russia 00:22:51 soviet russia? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:24:24 `le/rn soviet russia/¯\(°​_o)/¯ soviet russia? 00:24:28 Learned «soviet russia» 00:24:52 `` ls wisdom/*rus* 00:24:53 wisdom/brontosaurus \ wisdom/lystrosaurus \ wisdom/russell's teapot \ wisdom/russia \ wisdom/rust \ wisdom/soviet russia \ wisdom/the torus \ wisdom/torus 00:24:58 hppavilion[1]: you are the one who added the codoctorwisdom. you are responsible for it. 00:25:00 Taneb: how do you feel about about being confused with a jackal twh 00:25:08 Taneb's a jackal? 00:25:08 `` ls wisdom/*sovi* 00:25:09 wisdom/soviet russia \ wisdom/soviet union 00:25:29 boily: Oh, on the subject of LaTeXifying it 00:25:39 boily: You could have appended "to LaTeX" 00:25:57 boily: i've always assumed so 00:26:05 since the hebrew word for jackal is "tan" 00:26:20 but i didn't realize i'd always assumed so until just now 00:26:25 boily: You're welcome. Maybe you should stop using LaTeX because of Knuth's stupid crusade against Blackboard Bold and use some more good format 00:26:26 and -eb is is a Hebrew suffix for "like a jackal"? 00:26:44 * boily thwacks hppavilion[1] for spouting heresies 00:27:14 * hppavilion[1] uses deflect. It's META-effective 00:27:22 what crusade, i've use blackboard bold in LaTeX many times 00:27:30 *+d 00:27:46 @metar KOAK 00:27:46 KOAK 142253Z 29017KT 10SM FEW025 FEW200 18/07 A3013 RMK AO2 SLP204 T01780072 PNO 00:28:07 oerjan: How!? 00:28:23 \mathbb{...} 00:28:37 oerjan: I mean blackboard bold beyond \mathbb C, R, Z, Q, and A (I think A is an option) 00:28:39 might require a package. 00:28:39 @metar PANC 00:28:40 PANC 142253Z 16003KT 10SM FEW065 SCT120 SCT200 11/M01 A2961 RMK AO2 SLP026 SH DSNT N T01111011 00:28:48 OKAY 00:28:50 PANC? 00:29:00 hppavilion[1]: pretty sure N is included. 00:29:03 oerjan: AMS math includes it (much to Knuth's dismay, I imagine), but only the common ones 00:29:04 Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport 00:29:06 oerjan: Oh, yeah, N 00:29:06 * boily sings to some cute touhou remix ”la la la la la ♪“ 00:29:12 boily: ... 00:29:29 Wait, not boily 00:29:31 shachaf 00:29:35 shachaf: How? 00:29:46 How what? 00:29:52 shachaf: Ted Stevens. How? 00:30:02 HOW DID YOU FIND ME DAMMIT 00:30:26 I HAVE TRAVELED TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH TO CONCEAL MYSELF and it was just a coincidence, wasn't it? 00:30:28 why does everything have to be about you 00:30:45 hppavilion[1]: what am I not? 00:30:47 Actually I got it from your Github profile. 00:30:54 boily: shachaf 00:30:58 shachaf: Oh. 00:31:00 Wait, what? 00:31:16 shachaf: wtf does GitHub have that information? 00:31:19 hppavilion[1]: it could have had _something_ to do with your mention that you're in anchorage. 00:31:22 oh, github! plase to gib me hppavilion[1]username for graet good! 00:31:25 the other day. 00:31:37 Is it in some repo? 00:31:45 oerjan: i missed that 00:32:11 Ah, it says I'm in Alaska on the profile 00:32:19 I'll change it to East Virginia if that's possible 00:32:31 the truth is out there 00:32:43 Did you know Ted Stevens or something? 00:33:03 shachaf: ...maybe 00:33:12 shachaf: But only in his dying moments. 00:33:35 was he your grandparent 00:33:38 is that a murder confession. 00:33:55 Needless to say, they are still trying to figure out how I convinced air traffic control I was a pilot. 00:34:04 (And who it was that did that) 00:34:15 . o O ( hmm... should I put "deniability" in the things chapter, or the tanebventions one... ) 00:34:22 isn't east virginia just... virginia 00:34:27 Phantom_Hoover: No? 00:34:36 Phantom_Hoover: It's east of virginia 00:34:44 `? deniability 00:34:44 Phantom_Hoover: And west of west virginia 00:34:45 Deniability was not invented by Taneb. 00:34:49 Huh. 00:34:52 ic 00:35:03 `tomfoolery ic 00:35:04 I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking. 00:36:13 `? ic 00:36:15 ic what you did there. 00:36:36 oerjan: There we go 00:36:42 `? virginia 00:36:45 virginia? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:37:04 When I played Worms when I was young, when one side would win, its worms would say "Victory!". 00:37:22 But I thought they were talking about Queen Victoria. 00:37:35 I didn't understand why. 00:37:39 `? victoria 00:37:40 victoria? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:37:58 `learn Victoria was the most victorious queen the world has ever known. 00:38:05 Learned 'victoria': Victoria was the most victorious queen the world has ever known. 00:39:21 `le/rn victoria/Queen Victoria is the most victorious queen the world has ever known, even having won at the not dying contest. 00:39:25 Relearned «victoria» 00:39:40 rele/rn 00:39:58 hppavilion[1]: wat. 00:40:09 please refrain from learning things while I update the PDF hth. 00:40:14 oerjan: It's an OK joke 00:40:27 boily: I'm sorry, I cannot properly integrate that information for some reason. 00:40:46 if you give me your github username, it'll help the matter hth 00:40:47 hppavilion[1]: it feels like a reference to something i have never seen. 00:41:05 boily: HAVE YOU TRIED GOOGLING hppavilion[1] 00:41:12 oerjan: It does, but it isn't 00:41:24 -!- p34k has quit. 00:41:35 oerjan: The closest thing to a reference it is is the idea of being able to play a game against death where the stakes are mortality 00:41:45 hppavilion[1]: YES, AND IT DIDN'T WORK. *mumble grumble* 00:41:57 @google hppavilion[1] github 00:41:58 https://github.com/cmatsuoka/codecgraph/blob/master/samples/hp-pavilion-dv7.txt 00:42:04 @google hppavilion[1] github account 00:42:05 https://github.com/magento/magento2/issues/3407 00:42:12 @google "hppavilion[1]" on github 00:42:13 https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/TaurusVM/blob/master/README.md 00:42:19 @google who is "hppavilion[1]" 00:42:20 http://www.reddit.com/user/hppavilion 00:42:28 boily: Hint: When I first joined #esoteric, I didn't have the brackets 00:42:42 shachaf: Apparently, I'm on reddit 00:42:55 everybody's on reddit. 00:42:59 boily: Though I have a feeling you've already found me 00:43:03 even oerjan 00:43:13 boily: Even fungot? 00:43:51 especially fungot. 00:43:52 no, fungot is just on twitter. 00:43:58 fungot isn't even on irc 00:44:03 fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOŐOOOOOOOOOT! 00:45:00 What's a got, anyway? 00:45:11 @wn got 00:45:13 No match for "got". 00:45:20 nothing, apparently. 00:45:22 And what is the standard entertainingness of normal a got? 00:45:52 s/normal a/α-normal/ 00:45:58 * oerjan feels like giving hppavilion[1] a CAPTCHA. 00:46:23 oerjan: Bots don't make up words 00:46:28 oerjan: "entertainingness" 00:46:31 `words 00:46:40 shachaf: Coherent words 00:46:45 toibilio 00:47:01 . o O ( we need a bot to send HackEgo commands so it stays responsive ) 00:47:07 `words 20 00:47:11 lingpoirt dely horney atorbyllico saary foder hize kaisat reedici reba clar craw pably reuthesin gefa poassion ancr age latum scure 00:47:16 `coins 00:47:22 oerjan: Good point 00:47:34 oerjan: But what happens when PokeEgo starts to lag? 00:47:36 ​merintcoin kaycoin forcoin beartrovcoin xxvicoin concoin mechocoin crarcoin ]coin cadmiruntcoin mixingcoin lazcoin rocercolahcoin friecoin slycoin byterivincoin rffcoin brazempocoin 39.3coin attacoin 00:48:03 @coin 00:48:03 Not enough privileges 00:48:04 hppavilion[1]: shouldn't be a problem if we just avoid cloudatcost 00:48:17 @coon 00:48:17 Not enough privileges 00:48:20 i prefer cloudabovecost 00:48:23 @coop 00:48:23 Unknown command, try @list 00:48:41 shachaf: What about cloudisomorphictobutnotequivalenttocost? 00:48:49 hmph privileged commands don't get spell corrected i think 00:49:01 i don't know what isomorphism of cost is 00:49:10 @poin 00:49:10 Maybe you meant: pointful pointless pointy join 00:49:19 @join 00:49:20 Not enough privileges 00:49:21 shachaf: I don't know what isomorphism is strictly, so I'm going to go google it 00:49:23 maybe that one 00:49:35 oh it was corrected but too far 00:50:11 @quote 00:50:11 Enigmagic says: this calls for mfix and some tequila 00:50:18 @quite 00:50:18 Maybe you meant: quote quit 00:50:24 shachaf: Well, an isomorphism is a type of homomorphism 00:50:35 shachaf: And homomorphisms map between algebraic structures 00:50:37 Hm... 00:50:39 @nuit 00:50:39 Not enough privileges 00:50:44 Cryptocurrency based on higher mathematics? 00:52:13 that's tromp_'s area 00:52:31 Wait, cryptocurrency is crypto- as in cryptography, not crypto- as in cryptozoology 00:52:42 So it'd be an esocurrency 00:55:16 A currency where units are higher-order functions rather than integers? 00:57:20 `coins 00:57:48 ​infuckcoin rntnacoin raysnaircoin oriconcoin giblecoin wtfcoin xsmcoin judecoin bincoin flabtycoin 2-illumcoin msitiocoin stantioncoin rincoin alemichinercoin condiacoin kelectcoin blaugyonemibblinel-peturesparcoin jothenameofthecoin norcoin 00:57:58 ♪ DING ♪ D, E, and F! 01:08:10 <\oren\> i want a currency fixed to the value of plutonium 01:08:35 <\oren\> for mythological reasons 01:08:36 \oren\: That can be done. 01:09:16 \oren\: Though would prefer rikj ("Rick J.") currency. 01:09:26 \oren\: he\\oren\. 01:09:35 \oren\: why mythological system, and why? 01:09:48 Hm... 01:10:31 * oerjan thinks infuckcoin could catch on. 01:11:26 A cryptography system where a message is encrypted in such a way that the output message is variable by key used, so you plug in two messages (m, n) and two public keys (k, l) and it produces a cyphertext which when decrypted with k produces message m and when decrypted with l produces message n 01:12:19 WITH the property that one message can't be used to decrypt other messages 01:12:27 Preferably, you could have an infinite number of messages assigned to keys 01:13:18 This would be useful somehow and for some reason, I'm sure 01:13:40 Doublehashing is also of interest 01:13:49 Oooh, commutative doublehashing 01:14:07 That's actually potentially useful 01:14:12 Take two values X, Y and produce a hash H 01:14:27 Where swapping X and Y still produces H 01:15:14 \oren\: Any idea what commutative bihashing could be useful for? 01:15:26 (Or is it already a thing?) 01:19:44 oerjan: how about jothenameofthecoin 01:19:47 oerjan: and bincoin 01:20:17 norcoin: Nortti's Coin. 01:20:32 jothenameofthecoin is pretty good. 01:20:39 `` echo nooodlcoin 01:20:44 noooooodlcoin 01:21:53 boily: norcoin is based on NOR as its encryption algorithm 01:22:28 shachaf: but- how- except- what? 01:22:32 `` cat nooodlcoin 01:22:33 cat: nooodlcoin: No such file or directory 01:22:46 That sounds like an exceptional crypto algorithm. 01:22:48 `cat waaaalrus 01:22:49 cat: waaaalrus: No such file or directory 01:22:53 pikhq: It is. 01:23:05 Almost as good as 2ROT13. 01:23:14 pikhq: 2ROT13? 01:23:41 2 rounds of ROT13, of course. 01:23:57 . o O ( time to start going back to `run ) 01:24:00 pikhq: NOR is actually better because many messages are undecipherable 01:24:08 `` echo waaaalrus 01:24:09 waaaalrus 01:24:15 `` echo waaalrus 01:24:16 waaalrus 01:24:19 `` echo nooodl 01:24:20 noooooooodl 01:24:29 shachaf: HOW. HOW ARE YOU DOING THAT. 01:24:32 `cat echo 01:24:33 cat: echo: No such file or directory 01:24:37 `cat bin/echo 01:24:40 cat: bin/echo: No such file or directory 01:24:43 Didn't think so 01:24:51 `` which echo 01:24:53 ​/bin/echo 01:25:03 ``cat /bin/echo 01:25:03 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `cat: not found 01:25:08 `` cat /bin/echo 01:25:09 ​ELF............>.....¤@.....@.......€b..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....ø.......ø....................8......8@.....8@............................................@.......@.....”W......”W........ ............à]......à]`.....à]`.....°......`........ ...........ø]......ø]`.....ø]`.....à.......à................ 01:25:12 ...oh 01:25:23 `` echo -n 'noo' > /tmp/file; echo 'dl' > /tmp/file; cat /tmp/file 01:25:25 dl 01:25:28 oops 01:25:32 `` echo -n 'nooo' > /tmp/file; echo 'dl' >> /tmp/file; cat /tmp/file 01:25:33 nooodl 01:25:35 hm 01:25:36 `` echo -n 'nooo' > /tmp/file; echo 'dl' >> /tmp/file; cat /tmp/file 01:25:37 nooodl 01:25:43 `` echo -n 'nooo' > /tmp/file; echo 'dl' >> /tmp/file; cat /tmp/file 01:25:44 noooooooodl 01:25:47 there we go 01:25:59 even objdump -d -M intel /bin/echo 01:26:13 Whoops 01:26:22 `` objdump -d -M intel /bin/echo 01:26:25 ​ \ /bin/echo: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .init: \ \ 0000000000400ff8 <.init>: \ 400ff8:48 83 ec 08 sub rsp,0x8 \ 400ffc:e8 cf 07 00 00 call 4017d0 <__ctype_b_loc@plt+0x530> \ 401001:48 83 c4 08 add rsp,0x8 \ 401005:c3 ret \ \ Disassembly of s 01:26:33 `` stat /bin/echo 01:26:34 ​ File: `/bin/echo' \ Size: 27008 Blocks: 56 IO Block: 1024 regular file \ Device: bh/11dInode: 393111 Links: 1 \ Access: (0755/-rwxr-xr-x) Uid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2016-04-14 17:00:49.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2013-01-26 21:07:42.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2014-01-29 02:35:46.000000000 +0000 01:26:47 shachaf: ? 01:27:05 just looking for the mtime 01:27:26 `` echo $random 01:27:28 No output. 01:27:33 `` echo "$random" 01:27:34 No output. 01:27:37 Hm... 01:27:42 `` echo "random number: $random" 01:27:43 random number: 01:27:46 Huh 01:27:54 `` echo "random number: $RANDOM" 01:27:56 random number: 9596 01:28:02 `` echo "random nooodl: $NOOODL" 01:28:03 random noooooodl: 01:28:21 `` grep nooodl wisdom/* 01:28:22 grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°​_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/noooooodl:noooodl is the correct spelling \ wisdom/pho:Phở is a Vietnamese soup invented by noooooodl to stress-test implementations of Unicode combining characters. \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches 01:28:24 `roll d20 01:28:25 ​/hackenv/bin/roll: line 17: ((: 0 < : syntax error: operand expected (error token is "< ") \ 0 01:28:29 d20 01:28:29 shachaf: 19 01:28:33 d20 01:28:34 hppavilion[1]: 10 01:28:37 d15 01:28:37 hppavilion[1]: 7 01:28:40 d100000000000 01:28:40 hppavilion[1]: 40126895856 01:28:48 d0 01:28:55 d-20 01:28:57 di 01:29:00 d1 01:29:00 hppavilion[1]: 1 01:29:02 d1 01:29:02 hppavilion[1]: 1 01:29:10 `` cat wisdom/reflection /tmp/nooodl 01:29:11 cat: /tmp/nooodl: No such file or directory \ cat.wisdom/reflection./tmp/nooooooooodl. 01:29:24 d20+20i+20j+20k+20ij+20ik+20jk+20ijk 01:29:41 d20x30 01:29:52 d2*10^90 01:30:19 d9 01:30:19 hppavilion[1]: 9 01:30:25 WHAT ARE THE ODDS. 01:30:29 > 1/9 01:30:30 0.1111111111111111 01:30:33 THOSE ARE THE ODDS 01:30:39 THAT WAS EASY. 01:30:53 shachaf: i think hppavilion[1] may have passed on to the next subject 01:31:00 oerjan: it happens 01:31:46 d1+d2+d3 01:31:46 oerjan: 1 + 2 + 3 => 6 01:31:50 If one were to make a super-TC ASM, what kinds of instructions would need to be added? 01:32:13 shachaf: it happened _again_. marvelous, isn't it. 01:32:23 Where "take a program stored in memory and jump if it halts for a given input" is against the rules 01:32:32 i think oerjan may be making fun of you hth 01:32:40 shachaf: He's right at least. 01:33:19 oerjan: Basically, what is the simplest ASM instruction that /isn't/ dirty and over-specified that makes that ASM super-TC? 01:33:21 * boily prods oerjan with his mapole 01:33:28 i'm also making fun of shachaf's futile attempts at demonstrating the answer to the previous subject hth 01:33:46 (I formally defined "dirty and over-specified" yesterday for the folks on ##math, but I seem to have misplaced the link) 01:34:39 hppavilion[1]: DOESITHALT hth 01:34:52 oerjan: That counts as dirty and overspecified 01:35:03 BUSYBEAVER 01:35:39 oerjan: "Dirty and overspecified" is defined as "solves a single high-level decision problem and closely related problems instantly" 01:35:53 Among other things 01:36:12 oerjan: So BUSYBEAVER and DOESITHALT are both D&OS 01:36:37 hppavilion[1]: what about twoducks-like time travel, then. 01:37:37 WINDBACK, perhaps 01:37:51 returns to a previous time 01:38:17 i suppose it should also give a result there, like a continuation 01:39:16 hm not quite sure if that's super-TC 01:39:27 might just be feather-like 01:39:41 whoa whoa whoa 01:39:54 Someone in another channel reminded me of Vortex Math. 01:39:57 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhBymLCRIU8 01:40:05 It's so great. 01:40:12 oerjan: That is satisfactory 01:40:17 * oerjan sidles away from link 01:40:31 oerjan: come come, don't be afraid of links! 01:40:33 oerjan: but it's so wonderful 01:40:49 AAAAAAAAAAA 01:40:52 (click) 01:41:39 oerjan: I don't think it's super-TC, because you could just record the program state at every moment in time up until now. 01:42:08 oerjan: What you need for super-TC is one that can jump into the future (without doing the computation in between) 01:42:43 Or somethign 01:43:33 oerjan: If the FUCKAROUND command can deal with program-that-has-halted, it may be super-TC 01:43:38 * oerjan gets bored and quits before getting to actual "math" 01:43:57 oerjan: so you're saying you watched it to the end? 01:44:24 i put the quotes on on purpose. 01:44:27 oerjan: Wait, WINDBACK doesn't work, but SENDBACK does 01:44:57 SEND v a t sets the value at address a to v at the t'th execution step 01:45:33 oerjan: ok maybe i didn't make it clear what kind of video it was when i linked it 01:46:09 hppavilion[1]: https://esolangs.org/wiki/TwoDucks 01:46:19 oerjan: Yes, I'm at TwoDucks 01:46:33 shachaf: "boring" hth 01:46:43 oerjan: WINDBACK is just Feather, but SENDBACK can set a value before it has been computed 01:47:12 oerjan: WINDBACK just needs you to save the current program state at every point in execution 01:47:50 oerjan: Speaking of super-TCness, I had an awesome idea. Did I tell you about it? 01:48:04 yes, then i promptly forgot. 01:48:09 (No, I'm not becoming a crank. This isn't about making a super-TC machine) 01:48:13 oerjan: OK, then I'll tell you again 01:48:18 oerjan: Phase 1 01:48:30 * oerjan prepares the amnesiac machine 01:49:14 Design and implement a relatively simple (but, for one not exposed to esolangs in prior, novel and interesting and seemingly useful) programming language 01:49:55 oerjan: It should be based off of a carefully-designed abstract machine, perhaps one that seems almost TC but isn't 01:50:04 Phase 2 is to devise a solution to the halting problem for this machine, 01:50:08 oerjan: hppavilion[1]'s a class D? 01:50:23 boily: wat 01:50:28 oerjan: SCP 01:50:35 oerjan: Then to implement this algorithm 01:50:48 For the language. 01:50:51 boily: no no, i mean to use it on myself, so i can forget it again 01:50:59 oic tdh 01:51:11 It should be rolled into a compiler for the language, because it's a simple enough language to justify compilation 01:51:13 * boily still suspects hppavilion[1] to be class D... 01:51:22 boily: that does explain so much 01:51:40 boily: either that or class Euclid 01:51:47 The compiler should, given a program, print an unassuming message saying "This program [will|won't] halt" 01:52:04 It should be part of a list of messages, so you don't see it immediately 01:52:43 Phase 3 is to give this compiler to first-year CS students under the pretense of them testing the language and looking for flaws, careful not to tell them any of this 01:53:14 oerjan: Then you wait for them to encounter a bug and read the compiler printout for guidance, and see this unassuming little message that just doesn't fit. 01:54:24 (And since the machine is NTC, it can be 100% accurate, but the machine has to /look/ TC, albeit some fudging with the documentation would be required) 01:55:10 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:55:14 hppavilion[1]: problem: halting depends on input, which is not known at compile time. 01:55:22 oerjan: Yes, that would be an issue 01:55:47 oerjan: Probably we just say the language doesn't have proper IO yet, so you need to give it batch input before it compiles 01:56:01 -!- heroux has joined. 01:56:12 (I trust that your average CS student won't question that) 01:56:21 also, if a language is "almost TC", then deciding halting will likely be a > lifetime-of-universe task. 01:56:52 oerjan: It'll take some stuff from TFP 01:56:56 because it's easy to create terminating languages that still take enormous resources. 01:57:56 what's TFP. 01:58:11 [wiki] [[MDPN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46779&oldid=11116 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */ 01:58:17 oh total functional programming 01:58:22 oerjan: Total Functional Programming. An area of reasearch for languages that are not TC, rather being decidable 01:58:23 still enormous. 01:58:36 oerjan: We'd keep it down somehow. 01:58:53 "good luck" 02:00:46 oerjan: Yes, sure 02:02:07 Matrix Xor? 02:02:29 wat 02:02:47 That was Knuth's instruction, right? 02:02:53 For MMIX? 02:05:50 [wiki] [[DumbScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46780&oldid=9317 * LegionMammal978 * (+27) /* Download */ 02:06:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:08:39 [wiki] [[WILSON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46781&oldid=35507 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */ 02:09:38 [wiki] [[BrainFNORD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46782&oldid=21781 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) 02:10:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:26:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: STEREOSCOPIC CHICKEN). 02:31:45 -!- tromp has joined. 02:36:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:38:07 -!- Elronnd has changed nick to earenndil. 02:38:21 -!- earenndil has changed nick to Elronnd. 03:04:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 03:06:52 shachaf: Did you ever figure out left-associative SK? 03:07:04 no i hppavilion[1]ed it hth 03:07:44 shachaf: Great, now I'm a verb xD 03:07:47 i'm still thinking a bit about it 03:08:00 shachaf: Did you consider the tree representation? 03:08:14 ? 03:08:19 in particular, whether you can do it with only initial (.) combinations 03:08:49 Initial (.) combinations? 03:09:04 shachaf: Apparently, CL isn't supposed to be written with parentheses or `s, it's supposed to be drawn out as a tree 03:09:06 also, that okasaki paper solves the general problem 03:09:25 shachaf: Where the the child of a node is its arguments 03:10:18 shachaf: So it might just be a problem of "can a singly-linked list where the child of a node is its arguments represent anything of use 03:10:32 Which Okasaki paper? 03:10:44 http://www.westpoint.edu/eecs/SiteAssets/SitePages/Faculty%20Publication%20Documents/Okasaki/jfp03flat.pdf 03:10:47 "Flattening combinators"! That was the name. 03:11:04 shachaf: Wait, wouldn't cxyzabcdef be (((((((((c x) y) z) a) b) c) d) e) f)? 03:11:11 it would hth 03:11:50 shachaf: So it seems like what you're looking for is a way to encode a program in unary, then you stick that in a combinator where the number of arguments is the program 03:12:11 shachaf: So you just want Godel encoding, I think 03:12:35 not exactly hth 03:12:44 shachaf: Yeah, probably not 03:13:28 shachaf: But I have a feeling the proof is going to be "nothing interesting is possible" 03:17:19 What happens when you do purely-functional stack programming? 03:17:26 e.g. PUSH(PUSH) 03:17:37 shachaf: i haven't yet been able to prove that you _cannot_ use just dot and (dot dot). not been trying that hard, mind you. 03:17:55 (to flatten a tree) 03:19:22 ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)) ;; Story of my life ;-; 03:23:16 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 03:23:16 hppavilion[1]: you get underload, or slightly more mainstream, joy 03:26:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:26:07 -!- newsham has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:49:49 What about postfix SKI? 03:52:36 incidentally S and K alone don't work. i suspect adding I doesn't help. 03:53:18 Maybe you could add something that forces things to associate differently 03:53:50 because Sabc = ac(bc). if a is K that gives nothing new. is a is S you end up in a recursion that eventually gives nothing new. 03:54:08 FreeFull: that's cheating 03:54:39 *if a 04:00:53 [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Kaynato * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Daoyu Level Table.png]]": SWAPS is now a NOP at level 1. 04:01:15 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:01:55 hm I might mess up the argument 04:09:21 -!- centrinia has joined. 04:18:45 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 04:18:57 <\oren\> I am considering making an implementation of brainfuck in kOS, so m space probes can be controlled with brainfuck 04:19:39 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:22:13 -!- newsham has joined. 04:26:33 -!- devhydraz has joined. 04:26:34 -!- devhydraz has quit (Changing host). 04:26:34 -!- devhydraz has joined. 04:27:39 -!- yorick__ has joined. 04:27:39 -!- yorick__ has quit (Changing host). 04:27:39 -!- yorick__ has joined. 04:28:10 -!- nortti_ has joined. 04:30:22 -!- tromp has joined. 04:32:35 -!- hydraz has quit (*.net *.split). 04:32:35 -!- earendel has quit (*.net *.split). 04:32:35 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split). 04:32:35 -!- yorick has quit (*.net *.split). 04:32:35 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 04:32:35 -!- nortti has quit (*.net *.split). 04:33:22 kOS? 04:42:12 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 04:44:42 * oerjan assumes k = kerbal 04:46:45 <\oren\> kerbal operating system is a mod that lets you program arbitrary actions into your probes 04:47:58 <\oren\> e.g "if we are below a certain altitude, lower landing legs and blast until speed is less than blah 04:49:10 <\oren\> using a programming language similar to BASIC 04:50:17 <\oren\> so even if you're using RemoteTech, you don't need your probes to have signal at all times 04:52:37 <\oren\> (i'm interested in using it to provide stationkeeping) 04:53:51 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:02:06 <\oren\> I'm also working on a parts pack mod for ksp 05:08:13 -!- lambdabot has joined. 05:25:49 <\oren\> is "Watson Aerospace" a good name for a mod? or too generic 05:30:34 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin. 05:34:27 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:37:03 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:42:26 -!- zgrep has quit (Excess Flood). 05:43:41 -!- zgrep has joined. 06:00:58 -!- fowl has joined. 06:03:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:07:30 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 06:17:10 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:19:09 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 06:19:42 -!- earendel has joined. 06:24:52 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:26:10 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 06:27:28 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:28:05 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:28:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:28:05 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:28:05 -!- deltab has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:29:21 -!- deltab has joined. 06:29:29 -!- erdic has joined. 06:29:54 -!- heroux has joined. 06:35:06 -!- tromp has joined. 06:39:43 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:42:38 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 07:07:13 Apparently, YouTube stores their views using signed integers 07:07:20 (32-bit before Psy, 64-bit after) 07:08:48 Not sure why they went with signed but w/e. 07:08:59 An int64_t is probably plenty. 07:09:28 At the very least, I think we've got other, more important engineering issues to worry about if an int64_t view count wraps around. 07:28:45 `olist 1033 07:29:15 olist 1033: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 07:34:38 I think that was olist'd yesterday 07:39:14 oh indeed, at --04-14T17 07:39:17 sorry, I didn't notice 07:39:46 (we'll need to make hackego track this or something) 07:49:34 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:49:53 http://www.ioccc.org/2015/hou/prog.c 07:50:06 probably the most surprising entry (to me) for recent years 07:50:42 nobody will realize that this is an RFC 1321 implementation. 07:51:59 -!- rdococ has joined. 07:54:29 -!- rdococ_ has joined. 07:55:21 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 08:00:56 That is quite surprising. 08:01:14 Unsurprising that it requires IEEE compliant floats though. 08:02:17 -!- Nithogg has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:03:03 -!- Nithogg has joined. 08:04:04 -!- rdococ has quit (*.net *.split). 08:04:04 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (*.net *.split). 08:04:04 -!- zgrep has quit (*.net *.split). 08:04:10 lifthrasiir: oh great, the winners are out 08:04:15 um, the source codes I mean 08:04:46 b_jonas: yeah, quite delayed but it's now there 08:10:13 Wow, impressive 08:11:15 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 08:11:18 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:13:00 pikhq: it does detect the faulty (well, x87) float ops though 08:13:19 -!- zgrep has joined. 08:17:20 Yeah. 08:17:41 I suspect it doesn't detect other brain damaged floats, but that *is* the most likely one to hit people. 08:18:00 (well, okay, x87 itself isn't brain damaged. Just not quite what you want here.) 08:19:38 pikhq: yeah, to be exact it is "unexpected". but the risk of double rounding makes it a faulty decision nevertheless... 08:25:45 -!- rdococ_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:29:08 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:29:54 -!- heroux has joined. 08:30:13 lifthrasiir: it's not that delayed. compared to some previous ioccc that is. 08:30:34 well, they are frequently delayed ;) 08:35:05 -!- tromp has joined. 08:40:24 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:58:49 -!- atehwa_ has changed nick to atehwa. 09:06:15 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:22:54 -!- j-bot has joined. 09:23:29 -!- singingboyo has joined. 11:04:17 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:06:46 -!- ^v has joined. 11:08:58 I have an exam this afternoon 11:09:15 On linear optimization and its applications 11:16:33 I'm nervous :( 11:18:45 -!- boily has joined. 11:30:26 boily, can you help me boost my confidence 11:39:48 Haneb 11:43:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:48:20 Tanelle. I can try. 11:48:23 hellochaf. 11:48:34 Taneb: what confidence do you need a boost with? 11:48:54 (please note that I'll only be available for confidence boosting for the next twelve minutes.) 11:49:37 boily, I have an exam at 2PM UK time 11:49:51 @localtime Taneb 11:49:51 Local time for Taneb is Fri Apr 15 11:49:33 11:49:55 oh. 11:50:00 math exam, I presume? 11:50:33 Yeah, linear optimization and its applications in game theory and network optimization 11:50:41 Except I have no idea what network optimization is 11:52:00 I'm fairly sure I can get 70%, which is what I need to get the top grade in this module 11:52:11 But I'd like to do better than that so I can get the top grade overall 11:52:19 (I dropped a fair bit back in January) 11:53:19 well, when panicking take deep breathes, relax your shoulders, and try to edge your answer in according to the _intent_ of the question, not the question itself. 11:53:54 I doubt network optimization can be learned in a single hour. it sounds scary. 11:56:05 I might be able to learn it well enough to pretend I know it for the exam 11:56:09 It might not even come up! 11:57:58 follow the intents. 11:59:39 time for a shower, then second day of formattage. formatting. formationnery? 12:00:11 Taneb: good luck, optimize the fungot out of your exam, and may the tea flow freely in your veins! 12:00:18 -!- boily has quit (Quit: MASTER CHICKEN). 12:00:31 ...I don't drink tea 12:09:20 You better start, then! 12:14:42 Hahaha 12:14:50 I'm going to get some water, though 12:14:58 Don't want to sit an exam dehydrated 12:22:39 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:29:16 -!- Vorpal has joined. 12:47:15 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:47:55 -!- ^v has joined. 12:55:41 I usually buy a bottle of cola for my exams 12:56:02 Keeps me hydrated *and* acts as a caffeine boost 13:00:47 Taneb: whoa whoa whoa, don't drink tea? 13:00:51 what's that all about? 13:23:51 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:24:35 -!- p34k has joined. 13:25:30 -!- ^v has joined. 13:29:52 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:30:28 -!- singingboyo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:33:27 -!- dancek has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:36:25 -!- singingboyo has joined. 14:00:34 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:02:30 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti. 14:25:11 -!- ais523 has quit. 14:25:30 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 14:29:19 -!- spiette has joined. 14:37:29 -!- picobit has joined. 14:48:06 -!- picobit has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:54:20 -!- tromp has joined. 14:58:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:02:37 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:03:41 -!- ^v has joined. 15:15:16 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:19:55 -!- j-bot has joined. 15:31:22 Didn't I just bring the got back. 15:31:27 Now it's gone again. 15:32:15 Hmm. Neither of the two Freenode servers I typically use is answering. 15:32:26 (fungot can't do DNS, you have to point it at an address.) 15:34:57 fungot, can you do DNS? 15:35:44 -!- fungot has joined. 15:35:48 That's bettur. 15:39:03 -!- infinitymaster has joined. 15:39:14 -!- infinitymaster has quit (Client Quit). 15:42:31 fungot, can you DNA? 15:42:32 b_jonas: so add " 1-" there which takes two arguments 15:43:45 -!- rdococ has joined. 15:52:49 fungot: You mean you're subtracting DNA from 1? How does that work? 15:52:49 zgrep: let's vote for the picture language, is there a " kernel" 15:53:02 fungot: Yes, it's just a dot. 15:53:02 zgrep: i'm not aware of that one up? i'm working with a language that can be communicated between two human beings is fnord, fnord 15:53:09 ._. 15:53:11 Okay. 15:55:54 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 16:04:34 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:06:12 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:08:23 -!- devhydraz has changed nick to hydraz. 16:11:29 -!- ocharles_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:11:54 -!- haavardp has joined. 16:12:04 -!- haavard has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:12:40 -!- mbrcknl has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:12:40 -!- bb010g has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:12:54 -!- picobit has joined. 16:13:14 -!- sewilton has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:13:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:13:16 -!- Xe has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:18:28 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:18:53 -!- ocharles_ has joined. 16:19:24 -!- Xe has joined. 16:20:16 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:22:26 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sesshomariu * New user account 16:25:20 -!- mbrcknl has joined. 16:25:41 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:25:46 -!- vifino- has joined. 16:25:52 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 16:25:52 -!- spiette has quit (*.net *.split). 16:25:52 -!- p34k has quit (*.net *.split). 16:25:52 -!- nortti has quit (*.net *.split). 16:25:52 -!- acertain has quit (*.net *.split). 16:25:53 -!- cnr has quit (*.net *.split). 16:25:53 -!- vifino has quit (*.net *.split). 16:26:19 -!- staffehn has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.). 16:27:27 -!- staffehn has joined. 16:27:33 -!- nortti has joined. 16:28:47 -!- cnr has joined. 16:28:51 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:29:00 -!- acertain has joined. 16:29:47 -!- ocharles_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:30:49 -!- spiette has joined. 16:32:56 -!- sewilton has joined. 16:37:32 -!- Reece` has joined. 16:39:53 -!- ocharles_ has joined. 16:40:13 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 16:41:02 -!- bb010g has joined. 16:52:34 [wiki] [[AssemblerFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46784 * Sesshomariu * (+1943) Created page with "'''AssemblerFuck''' is a language made by [[User:Sesshomariu|User:Sesshomariu]] and is a version of [[brainfuck]] that uses assembler-like words instead of symbols. == Specif..." 16:53:23 is it really that rare for someone's first esoteric language to not be a derivative of bf? 16:53:50 my first esolang was lolcode 16:53:50 [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46785&oldid=46777 * Sesshomariu * (+20) /* A */ 16:53:58 i ended up getting it running on a robot 16:54:18 do you mean you created lolcode or do you mean you used it? 16:54:32 I was talking about creating them 16:54:56 e.g. AF that Sesshomariu just made 16:55:56 -!- tromp has joined. 17:00:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 17:13:47 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split). 17:14:17 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:16:26 rdococ: not sure what was my first esolang *exposed*, but Befunge-93 was the first esolang I really tried to write code in 17:17:52 lifthrasiir, what's the first esolang you *created*? 17:18:00 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 17:22:59 rdococ: Versert. 17:23:09 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Versert 17:23:27 (I was also deeply related to the development of Aheui though) 17:25:30 -!- bb010g has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:32:34 -!- bb010g has joined. 17:43:16 -!- centrinia has joined. 17:45:19 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:46:57 -!- ocharles_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:49:32 -!- ocharles_ has joined. 18:10:07 -!- dingbat_ has joined. 18:13:40 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 18:14:46 Ironically, Constantinople changed. 18:15:11 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 18:22:24 -!- deltab_ has joined. 18:22:48 -!- yorick has joined. 18:22:48 -!- yorick has quit (Changing host). 18:22:48 -!- yorick has joined. 18:22:48 -!- mbrcknl has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:23:15 -!- sewilton has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:25:07 -!- dingbat__ has joined. 18:25:24 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:26:45 -!- mbrcknl has joined. 18:26:52 -!- dingbat_ has quit (*.net *.split). 18:26:54 -!- ocharles_ has quit (*.net *.split). 18:26:54 -!- bb010g has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:46 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:46 -!- centrinia has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:47 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:48 -!- acertain has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:50 -!- Xe has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:50 -!- rdococ has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:51 -!- heroux has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:51 -!- deltab has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:51 -!- yorick__ has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:51 -!- hydraz has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:51 -!- newsham has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:51 -!- singingboyo has quit (*.net *.split). 18:27:52 -!- hppavilion[wc] has joined. 18:28:07 For reference, while(x --> y) {...} is the "goesto" troll, where y usually equals 0. It is, of course, just while((x--) > y) {...}, which means it doesn't work if x < y (instead looping forever (in theory, though over/underflow fixes it in a hacky way)). It's a nice little readhack with potentially useful semantics, but it isn't intuitive in some cases. 18:28:15 -!- singingboyo has joined. 18:28:24 singingboyo: Yay! Bo Burnham reference! 18:29:40 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:31:07 x 🔫(0..3)= y means "x had better equal y by the time I count to 3, or else" 18:31:42 -!- mbrcknl has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:32:20 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:33:29 what's the oldest esolang in existence? 18:34:12 picobit: INTERCAL is the canonical grandfather of Esolangs 18:34:20 And, now I must close my laptop for a quiz 18:34:39 have fun. 18:37:23 picobit: see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages 18:38:38 -!- hppavilion[wc] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:38:50 -!- Nithogg has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:39:14 huh, sweet. 18:39:15 -!- Nithogg has joined. 18:39:47 buddy of mine called Forth an esolang. 18:41:44 -!- hppavilion[wc] has joined. 18:43:01 -!- sewilton has joined. 18:45:45 -!- Xe has joined. 18:46:03 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 18:46:25 -!- acertain has joined. 18:46:47 huh, I didn't know that L6 existed. 18:46:52 I am fascinated. 18:49:11 -!- bb010g_ has joined. 18:52:11 -!- ocharles_ has joined. 18:56:30 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:59:12 -!- mbrcknl has joined. 18:59:25 -!- hydraz has joined. 18:59:25 -!- hydraz has quit (Changing host). 18:59:25 -!- hydraz has joined. 18:59:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:00:33 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:05:16 -!- heroux has joined. 19:09:46 -!- hppavilion[wc]_ has joined. 19:09:50 -!- hppavilion[wc] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:21:20 [wiki] [[Piet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46786&oldid=21614 * 185.33.209.16 * (-262) /* Computational class */ 19:24:53 -!- newsham has joined. 19:27:10 -!- hppavilion[wc]_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:28:21 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:32:28 -!- hppavilion[wc] has joined. 19:33:37 -!- dingbat__ has changed nick to dingbat. 19:33:53 -!- centrinia has joined. 19:49:30 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:50:02 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:51:49 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:59:33 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:00:27 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:10:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:12:40 -!- Reece` has joined. 20:15:44 -!- gremlins has joined. 20:16:15 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:17:45 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:18:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:19:54 -!- rdococ has joined. 20:20:17 rdococ: Hi! Your name is not good for porthellos! 20:21:00 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:22:04 -!- dingbat_ has joined. 20:22:14 porthellos? 20:22:40 hppavilion[wc], I love your username, do you use it when you're on the toilet? 20:22:49 -!- dingbat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:22:50 -!- yorick has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.). 20:22:50 -!- ocharles_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:23:00 -!- yorick has joined. 20:23:00 -!- yorick has quit (Changing host). 20:23:00 -!- yorick has joined. 20:23:48 -!- dingbat_ has changed nick to dingbat. 20:24:45 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:25:55 rdococ: ?? 20:26:04 rdococ: It's my webchat username when HexChat breaks 20:26:17 hppavilion[wc], oh LOL I thought it meant water cabinet as in toilet 20:26:36 rdococ: Never heard that term 20:27:05 wc -> toilet? 20:27:40 closet? 20:27:43 wc = wrong channel 20:28:43 -!- ocharles_ has joined. 20:29:03 wc = word count 20:29:53 wc = welsh cough 20:33:38 the water cabinet is where most important decisions of the parliament are made 20:57:54 -!- tromp has joined. 20:58:19 Here's a nice little feature I wish regex had 20:58:21 Nested [] 20:58:43 How would that work? I am not sure I see the point 20:58:51 zzo38: I'm explaining it now 20:59:14 A better syntax would be <> in [], I suppose 20:59:49 [xyz]* matches a repetition of x's, y's, z's, a's, and b's, but every time you hit an a the next a|b must be a b, then the next must be an a, then the next must be a b, ad infinitum 20:59:58 It's matchable with normal regex usually 21:00:10 Wait, that's not what I was going for I just realized 21:00:16 would match a then b. 21:00:24 That's pretty straightforward with regex 21:00:25 BUT 21:00:58 You could do [^xyz{ab}] or something, which would be a way to not match ab (or x, y, or z) 21:01:11 zzo38: Is there a more straightwforward way to do this 21:01:13 ? 21:01:20 Something that doesn't require PCRE 21:02:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:05:32 -!- hppavilion[wc] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:07:07 O, OK I can understand what what you meant I suppose 21:08:35 -!- iconmaster has joined. 21:13:19 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 21:13:46 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 21:20:09 -!- rdococ_ has joined. 21:22:04 -!- mbrcknl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:23:17 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:23:17 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:25:24 -!- mbrcknl has joined. 21:29:44 -!- heroux has joined. 21:32:16 -!- Reece` has joined. 21:33:09 -!- gremlins has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:39:29 -!- deltab_ has changed nick to deltab. 21:40:39 -!- rdococ_ has changed nick to rdococ. 21:52:45 -!- spiette has joined. 22:16:28 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:32:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:42:34 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!). 22:48:22 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:50:38 `wisdom 22:52:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:52:09 ? 22:52:18 `ping 22:53:06 partial order/A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category. 22:53:08 pong 22:53:15 `wisdom 22:53:32 anybody here ever work with flow based programming? 22:53:55 ​`mk/Everything's better with `mk. 22:54:08 `culprits wisdom/`mk 22:54:55 No output. 22:55:23 FireFly, I've been trying to give up cola after making myself sick on it a couple of months ago 22:55:33 ouch 22:55:57 drugs are bad `mk 22:56:01 what will you replace it with? 22:56:58 Taneb: I see 22:57:03 Well then, tea it is 22:57:04 b_jonas, I was mostly drinking it for the liquid and calories, so I've been going for water and actual food 22:57:12 And I've never really liked tea 22:57:34 Maybe I stole your taste for tea 22:57:57 FireFly: What kind of tea should I drink? 22:58:24 I drink some coke and milk, but mostly I drink water and the sort of tea that's just empty colored warm water with no active ingredients. 22:58:51 I mostly drink black tea, like earl grey 22:59:16 I liked this oolong tea with ginseng that I had. 22:59:26 I had earl grey this morning. 23:00:26 But what other sort of tea should I get? 23:00:27 -!- picobit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:03:07 Maybe you could try rooibos 23:03:13 It's not really tea per se 23:03:28 I don't think I'm a big fan. 23:04:01 Ah 23:04:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:04:40 -!- picobit has joined. 23:04:45 I have found a feature that haskell /should/ have but doesn't, and isn't emulatable AFAICT 23:05:14 Templatized functions (not like C++'s templates for polymorphism; more like C++'s templates with constants) 23:05:24 It's not a major feature, but it'd be nice 23:05:58 What about Template Haskell? 23:06:03 FireFly: Maybe that's a thing 23:06:07 (disclaimer: I don't know much about Template Haskell) 23:06:09 It is a thing 23:06:10 FireFly: In that language 23:06:19 FireFly: I mean "maybe what I'm talking about is a thing in that" 23:06:26 Ah 23:06:34 Say you have an Int^n list and function trans :: Int -> t 23:07:08 You want to map trans over the individual bottom-level elements 23:07:16 (n is a constant known at compile-time) 23:07:56 The simplest solution is, of course, where n=2 tmapper2 = map (map trans) 23:08:05 tmapper3 = map (map (map trans)) 23:08:17 In rust, is there a way to convert an int32 to the float32 with the same bit pattern, or backwards, that is fast (doesn't require to call a non-inlinable function, preferably something the llvm can directly optimize away) and doesn't invoke undefined behavior? As a bonus, one that doesn't call unsafe stuff? 23:08:33 tmapper15 = map (map (...(map trans)...)) 23:08:50 This is straightforward, but a little hard to read sometimes, and a bit crufty 23:09:17 What'd be nice if you could just say tmapper[n] = map[n] trans 23:10:01 map[n] func arr maps func over the elements of arr at the nth nesting level 23:10:41 Of course, map f l = map[1] f l 23:10:46 I'm not sure how the semantic rules of rust about undefined behavior work. Can I just ptr.write or ptr.copy from an int32 to a float32 and read the float32 without invoking undefined behavior? 23:11:05 It'd make the syntax of the language a little less pure, but it'd make code look better 23:11:08 b_jonas: what language? 23:11:16 coppro: rust 23:11:22 b_jonas: I dunno then 23:11:47 (Which is weird, given that it seems that x => y -> bad x => bad y, but it isn't true here) 23:12:48 b_jonas: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/26163272/strict-aliasing-in-rust 23:13:15 FireFly: template haskell is a bit scow 23:13:27 ^ 23:13:32 I still don't know what scow means, but I agree 23:13:43 @google garbage scow 23:13:44 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_scow 23:14:07 hppavilion[1]: that sort of thing is what control.monad.*.class is for 23:14:13 I agree, template Haskell is a bit scow. 23:14:29 pikhq: i'm a lens maintainer now. help. 23:14:42 :( 23:14:44 hppavilion[1]: you could also do it with a newtype 23:14:45 coppro: I really don't want to break aliasing, I think getting or setting the representation of IEEE floats should be a builtin (but possibly rarely used) arithmetic op that the float32 module of the standard library should just export, but alas, it seems there's no such function. 23:15:22 b_jonas: sounds like transmute can do it 23:15:28 * pikhq is curious if rust has reasonable floating point semantics. 23:15:31 coppro: even this way, the rust standard library functions for float32 look way saner than the obsolate nonsense some languages try to provide, with no frexp or an exception when you divide on zero. 23:15:51 The *most* reasonable being "literally IEEE", of course. 23:15:54 ^ 23:15:59 coppro: Are you a maintainer or do you just have a commit bit? 23:16:05 shachaf: commit bit 23:16:08 Though I'll accept ISO C's semantics (as opposed to GNU C's). 23:16:24 Will you accept gnusto semantics? 23:16:24 I don't consider myself actively responsible for it 23:16:29 pikhq: what are the differences? 23:17:21 coppro: When using x87, GNU C will flush intermediate values from floating point computations to the stack by storing a double or float representation on the stack. Which imposes double rounding. 23:17:23 pikhq, iirc, Rust has a very cautious IEEE 23:17:54 pikhq: why does that double round? 23:18:13 pikhq: which iso C semantics? the c89 or the c99 ones? and with which settings if the latter? 23:18:26 Because all floating point operations are rounded, and on x87 the only precision it has is 80-bit float. 23:18:38 ahh 23:18:44 b_jonas: ISO C99 with the semantics in the amendment defining IEEE semantics.. 23:18:52 is that not ISO C semantics? 23:19:01 -!- p34k has joined. 23:19:05 No. 23:19:06 have to match the abstract machine 23:19:26 ISO C semantics say that the result of an operation on doubles is a double_t. 23:19:39 And on x86 a double_t is an 80-bit float. 23:19:47 (or "long double") 23:20:04 GCC implement it this way if you pass -std=c99. 23:20:05 sorry, it's too late for me to think deep about floating point semantics. I did the research once, and wrote it down on a dense ugly handwritten paper which doesn't cover even half of it. 23:20:06 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:20:11 But not -std=gnu99. 23:20:28 * coppro looks at the appendix 23:20:43 In GNU C you get double rounding *basically* when the optimizer sees fit. 23:22:38 ok wait 23:22:47 I re-read what the docs says 23:23:17 and it seems to me that the rust rules do permit to copy the memory from an int32 to a float32 or back 23:23:49 which is also why mem::transmute (which coppro kindly pointed me to) should work 23:24:05 and that can probably be optimized fine 23:24:24 so I can wrap that to define the four float-int reinterpret functions 23:24:32 coppro: thanks for the nudge 23:24:36 http://port70.net/~nsz/c/c99/n1256.html#5.2.4.2.2 Here's the relevant part of ISO C99 describing float_t etc. 23:24:59 *This* bit is independent of whether or not you implement IEEE floats. 23:25:18 Erm, wait... 23:25:31 double_t is in math.h, sorry. 23:25:46 pikhq: oh, I see, FP_CONTRACT 23:26:02 (obviously rust still has a lots of rules about what you're permitted to do with pointers, but accessing memory that you're normally permitted to read as some other type is allowed, as long as you only write allowed values, but any bit pattern is allowed for an u32 so that's fine) 23:26:44 FLT_EVAL_METHOD describes the actual behavior of the floats, though. 23:27:58 FP_CONTRACT is a pragma 23:28:01 Yeah. 23:28:28 GCC's implementation of floating point is slightly off. For instance, it apparently doesn't do that pragma. 23:28:51 pikhq: no compiler does that pragma, neither gcc, nor msvc. both have some other ways of controlling the same thing though, in later versions 23:29:16 It's a shame. The ability to get floating point stuff working reasonably is, uh, why science people still use Fortran. 23:29:19 pikhq: the problem is, the gcc equivalent can't be changed as quickly in blocks, but only to function level 23:29:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:30:05 pikhq: sure, but you can get them to work reasonably in gcc and msvc, you just have to know the magic compiler-specific incantations, and also the _default_ settings are sane for both 23:30:19 (at least if you use at least -std=c99 as a base, and not an old compiler) 23:30:45 Yes, the default settings *in -std=c99 on recent compiler versions* are at least sane. 23:30:47 those magic incanatations are part of my handwritten paper, which incidentally I really should make a photo and backup of now 23:30:54 Sufficiently so that for 99% of things they're what you actually want. 23:31:23 The problem being, of course, that -std=c99 isn't default, and getting the other things you might want aren't supported. 23:31:26 pikhq: to be fair, the choice of a pragma is a stupid design 23:31:42 Not gonna disagree. 23:32:02 coppro: what? why is that a stupid design? 23:32:08 b_jonas: what is float f = a + \\ #pragma SOMETHING \\ b; 23:32:11 coppro: at least in C99, where you have _Pragma 23:32:33 coppro: no, but you can put _Pragma in brace blocks locally, even in a macro 23:32:47 coppro: not in the middle of an expression, but in a brace block between statements 23:33:30 b_jonas: yes, _Pragma statement makes sense, except that it's defined in terms of preprocessor 23:34:06 And ostensibly the preprocessor is a phase independent of the rest of compilation. 23:34:10 Except of course it isn't. 23:36:03 coppro: no, that's just a historical accident, where improving the language is important, but everyone's lazy to rewrite the standard to use a more readable terminology, so the preprocessor is brought into the picture mostly unnecessarily. It happens all the time with changing M:tG rules too, but it's worse with the C and C++ standards. 23:36:06 pikhq: of course it is 23:36:11 pikhq: haven't you heard of _Generic? 23:36:12 :P 23:36:21 b_jonas: C is *really* bad 23:36:24 C++ is not nearly so bad 23:36:45 at least in this regard. C++ has other issues. 23:36:57 C++ is great. 23:36:59 I have friends who've been to both committees though 23:37:06 C++ committee is awesome 23:37:09 C... not so much 23:37:23 pikhq: also, because of historical reasons, the defaults even with -std=c99 aren't entirely reasonable, because they default to math functions setting errno, which is a complete waste, but in gcc you can -fno-math-errno to get the saner behavior. 23:38:41 b_jonas: that's standard though, isn't it? 23:38:56 coppro: C99 allows either, and defines a macro to tell you 23:39:30 coppro: but I for one don't want to have the compiler emit an expensive conditional set for a thread-local variable every time I lrint an number. 23:39:45 -!- p34k has quit. 23:40:32 yeah no kidding 23:41:04 coppro: the C++ committee hasn't caught up with the improvements in C. They're reluctant to take the changes because half of them is good (eg. floating point stuff) and half of them is bad (variadic arrays, and that "safe" standardd library stuff). But in practice that doesn't matter, because gcc still implements this stuff for C++ too (except there are a few conflicts, like how complex is a macro in C but an identifier in C++, etc), and even msvc is slo 23:41:07 -!- hppavilion[wc] has joined. 23:42:06 Also, I'd like an lrint and lrintf variant that returns int32_t instead of a long 23:42:15 and a pony too 23:42:35 Here's an idea for AOP 23:44:06 I should make a slow interpreter for a high-level language that exposes ALL the sane integer and floating point and complex floating point operations on all types there are, because I've had enough of no language exporting the full set, even though C comes quite close. 23:44:12 By the way, as for floating point stuff, 23:45:08 I understand why the C++ committee added an extra function (not in C) that returns the squared norm of a complex number. But for the love of HNA, WHY DID THEY HAVE TO NAME IT norm? 23:45:53 That's just so confusing! There are numerics-connected libraries that use the identifier norm to mean a non-squared norm, and when I use norm in two such clashing meanings in the same program it just gets horrible. 23:46:00 WHY COULDN'T THEY FIND A BETTER NAME? 23:48:19 coppro: I suspect a lot of this has to do with a lot of the C committee pretending that certain vendors' opinion on things matter even when they haven't even bothered implementing C99. 23:48:53 For instance, the "safe" standard library stuff comes courtesy of Microsoft, because Microsoft is on the committee even though to this day they haven't implemented the *17 year old* C99 spec. 23:49:18 (and they have some pretty notable violations of C90 as well...) 23:49:49 pikhq: yeah... 23:49:56 pikhq: I didn't ask 23:50:20 but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a little like hardware standardization 23:50:33 which is a competitive, rather than collaborative, process 23:50:33 It's honestly worse than IBM's presence on the C++ committee because, while they insist on some frankly silly things sticking around because of mainframe, at least they *implement* the damned thing on the systems they want to keep supporting. 23:50:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:50:45 pikhq: trigraphs are gone 23:50:58 In the next revision of C++, but not the current one. 23:51:12 yeah 23:51:14 C++17 is going to be great. 23:51:14 Giving IBM time to stop using trigraphs. 23:52:09 shachaf: file system library! 23:52:16 Are they just replacing them with digraphs? 23:52:24 coppro: Variadic fold expressions will be good. 23:52:26 pikhq: digraphs don't cover everything trigraphs did 23:52:27 Ah, yes, it seems they are. 23:52:29 Or whatever they end up with. 23:52:31 shachaf: yeah, those are sweet too 23:52:42 Yes, but digraphs cover everything that IBM needs. 23:52:44 pikhq: basically IBM said "ok, fine, whatever, we'll just maintain our own compiler" 23:52:49 coppro: Writing variadic template code is such a mess. 23:53:03 shachaf: yeah... 23:53:14 The only *actual* problem is some of the digraph-encoded characters on EBCDIC codepages vary encoding depending on the codepage. 23:53:16 Do you have any fun variadic template puzzles? 23:53:25 But they all exist in real-world EBCDIC codepages. 23:53:34 shachaf: tbh if they were redesigning templates they'd probably do it very different 23:54:27 pikhq: yes, but funnily, I think the floating point control pragmas come from microsoft too 23:54:51 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:55:17 eek 23:55:45 parallel STL is sweet too 23:56:06 and string_view 23:56:16 pikhq: also, in msvc 2015, they actually implement once-init local statics and constexpr and alignas and alignof and a lot of other C++ stuff (but not everything). 23:56:18 coppro: Why doesn't std::tuple expose a tail tuple explicitly? 23:56:26 Wouldn't that be a better API? HList-style. 23:56:30 -!- boily has joined. 23:56:36 std::tuple is already pretty much HList, I guess. 23:56:48 I still really don't like their compiler, but it's at least getting less bad. It's just that it's still like five years obsolate compared to gcc or something. 23:56:52 shachaf: because it would require explicit construction 23:57:06 b_jonas: MS is moving to clang 23:57:15 So like the msvc five years into the future will be able to compile all my code. 23:57:20 Maybe I should look at how it's implemented. 23:58:09 coppro: so I've been told, but I don't buy it. just look at it, the original reasoning was that they'd have to rewrite half of msvc just to implement constexpr. but now they support constexpr in msvc 2015. so what gives? 23:58:43 b_jonas: are you sure that the frontend you're using there isn't clang? 23:58:44 coppro: if "moving" means they'll use clang to compie their stuff instead of the shit they sell, then sure 23:59:10 @massages-loud 23:59:10 You don't have any messages 23:59:18 b_jonas: no, visual studio is moving to clang as its frontend. 23:59:26 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett. 23:59:38 So let me see if I can come up with an ordinal number notation. 23:59:47 coppro: no way... if it is, then it's a modified version of clang that gives worse error messages than gcc 1.95 gave 23:59:53 https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2015/05/01/bringing-clang-to-windows/ 23:59:59 b_jonas: ah, then I can't explain it 2016-04-16: 00:00:05 https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2015/12/04/clang-with-microsoft-codegen-in-vs-2015-update-1/ 00:00:45 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 00:00:54 I mean, I know C++ templates and sfinae are _designed_ at language feature level to make it impossible to give sane diagnostics, but msvc gives horrible error messages even in simple cases, not only in the complicated template stuff. 00:00:58 Each notation consists of a list of key-value pairs. Each key and each value is a notation. Every notation has an ordinal number as its value. 00:02:00 There can only be finitely many key-value pairs. The keys must be arranged in descending order by ordinal value. 00:02:20 -!- hppavilion[wc] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:02:50 Notations also have an ordering; this ordering is different from the order of the ordinal numbers they describe. 00:02:58 shachaf: tbh I'm *super* excited for modules 00:04:36 Seriously, msvc is so bad that even if the code you write will eventually be compiled only with msvc, it's worth to port some of it to be portable to non-msvc just to get sane error messages when developing it. 00:04:59 The ordering of two notations is calculated as follows. If one notation is empty and the other is not, the non-empty one is later. Otherwise, look at their greatest keys (by ordinal value). If one key is greater, then its notation is later. 00:05:02 I've done that with template code. 00:05:16 If the keys are equal, look at the corresponding values (again, by ordinal value). If one value is greater, then that notation is later. 00:05:26 Of course, then you get cases when your code is correct and gcc and clang both know that, but msvc can't compile it because it doesn't understand the c++ standard. 00:05:27 Otherwise, discard the top key-value pair of each notation and compare the results. 00:05:50 But even then, gcc or clang as tools help you figure out how to fix it. 00:07:07 The definition of the function from notations to ordinal numbers is: The ordinal value of a notation is the smallest ordinal number which is greater than all of the values in the key-value pairs, and also greater than the ordinal value of any earlier notation. 00:09:54 So, the big question is: are all notations well-defined? 00:10:39 -!- HackEgo has joined. 00:10:49 fungot, are all notations well-defined? 00:11:20 fungot: Kengyele, kantárja / a kádár munkája 00:14:05 -!- lleu has joined. 00:14:20 -!- tromp has joined. 00:18:00 fizzie: IEUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHGHGHGLGHRHGLGHRLGHRLGLGLGLGLGLLFLBLFLBLFLBLBLBLBLBLFLFLFLBLBLBLBL! 00:18:35 tswett: i don't think it's well-defined. it seems like key = 0, value = a must be at least a for any ordinal, so there's nothing left for other notations. 00:18:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:19:00 oerjan: you can't get omega using only key = 0. 00:19:10 boily: is the topic the most recent wisdom? 00:19:15 it still says 2015 on the title page 00:19:26 Like, the function f(x) = {0: x} doesn't have omega in its range. 00:19:48 oh that mess. 00:19:52 FINE 00:20:07 `welcome oerjan 00:20:17 oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 00:20:46 `wisdom 00:20:47 coppro: I think so. I haven't updatitled, only contents. 00:20:48 wisdome/The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. 00:20:53 `wisdom 00:20:55 egobot/EgoBot is my arch-nemesis. 00:20:57 oh you said the ordering was different. 00:22:07 shachaf: WAT, and here i thought this place was about alchemy and stuff 00:25:25 oerjan: no, this place is about kitten typesetting 00:27:11 Not really alchemy, except as it applies to typesetting. 00:27:28 Which is surprisingly common. 00:27:41 `? ginorst # wut? 00:27:42 ginorst # wut?? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:27:46 `? ginorst 00:27:47 Ginorst is eht aillpr fo dgoo iikw aaeegmmnnt. 00:27:57 storing is the pillar of goot wiki management??? 00:28:15 st\t wtd wt 00:28:44 boily: almost 00:29:10 * oerjan wanted to give a hint in the last message, but then realized something... 00:29:39 strigno? goirnst? 00:30:30 rty adeehrr 00:30:38 kiwi? 00:32:29 no, ahtt asw cceorrt 00:34:14 what is it with fungot today 00:34:29 oh oerjan's experimenting with some sort of encryption? 00:34:33 rosting? trisong? gnosirt? norsigt? 00:34:49 ... 00:34:52 snorting! 00:35:07 thint-e. 00:35:09 oerjan: snorting! 00:35:15 it's wrong 00:35:42 * oerjan astw biloy ###----- 00:35:50 *asstw 00:36:18 dhnt 00:36:50 oerjan: ehy :P 00:36:54 aacfhhs: aer ouy ersu? 00:36:55 apparently there's only Sorting and Storing 00:37:14 I already suggested storing, therefore it's sorting. 00:37:21 Or Tsing 00:37:29 Or Sting 00:37:30 also: is Hari a person, or a concept? 00:37:32 `? hari 00:37:38 shachaf: probably Sting. 00:37:39 Hari wears an identical suit every day. Or the same suit? The latter glitch would be a sign of adjustments on the Matrix. 00:39:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:40:09 So here's a rather interesting idea 00:40:40 Most type theories (and, by extension, good type systems) are based on Formal Logic and use logical proofs to engineer new functions 00:40:54 hppavellon[42]! you are wisdomupdated. 00:41:07 But what happens if we throw logic and functions out the window? 00:41:15 Instead of logic, we use geometry 00:41:27 And instead of functions we use, I dunno, constructions? 00:41:53 I think you've crossed some line there. 00:42:02 int-e: I think I have 00:42:03 int-e: in the first line imo 00:42:46 hppavilion[1]: your first error is in assuming that throwing random stuff together is sufficient to be "interesting". 00:42:49 * hppavilion[1] is guilty of four-plus-pi-i-degree linecrossing 00:43:02 oerjan: I was thinking about it on my walk home and it seemed interesting 00:43:26 oerjan: I tried to figure it out, but I was walking and thus unable to visualize it concretely 00:43:29 well, geometry is the ancient logical subject 00:43:44 oerjan: Yes, and? 00:44:02 what I was getting at, really, is that geometry is all about crossing lines 00:44:10 oerjan: Yes, it uses logic, but it's a rather different logic IME 00:44:14 int-e: Aaaaaaah. 00:45:26 oerjan: I tried to figure it out, but I was walking and thus unable to visualize it concretely <-- the trick is to find a nearby beach with sand to draw in. and watch out for romans. 00:45:29 that said, oerjan has a point 00:45:45 oerjan: I feel like I should get that reference 00:45:49 int-e: Yes, he does 00:45:59 int-e: But I think this actually is interesting 00:46:05 * int-e is going to let this discussion run in circles... and then move on to three dimensions. 00:46:24 01:11 <@DarwinElf> shachaf, Warrigal, poll: best spiritual site? (mine in the topic, and the two it's influenced by and that are now probably still offline, aren't the easiest for most people, so we could list others like we used to) 00:46:43 hppavilion[1]: well it's pretty old hth 00:46:52 oerjan: do you have any good ones for the other #esoteric 00:46:53 (Though further thought led me to realize that you need something to take the place of functions. Or just functions) 00:47:01 tswett didn't know any 00:48:01 oh perhaps the discussion could also spiral out of control or move off a tangent... 00:48:21 why are there so many geometric idioms... 00:48:23 oerjan: Is there some glaring obvious reason a geometric type theory wouldn't work that I'm missing? 00:48:34 hppavilion[1]: i don't know. 00:48:39 int-e: I think "tangent" was a thing before geometry and they both use the same thing 00:49:16 wat 00:49:26 tangent is part of geometry 00:50:36 oerjan: Yes, but it may have predated geometry 00:50:50 who is Jander? 00:50:55 oerjan: And the word may have been an already-existing word adopted by geometers (in its english sense) 00:50:57 -!- centrinia has joined. 00:51:26 hppavilion[1]: usually you should first have an idea of a mathematical object, then give it a name... you seem to be turning this process upside down, but it doesn't really work: "geometric type theory" has no inherent meaning. 00:51:41 int-e: True, true 00:51:41 coppro: ♪ DING ♪ PDF update! 00:52:09 `pbflist 00:52:10 pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas 00:52:14 hppavilion[1]: tangent is latin, and geometry is greek, so the latter is older hth 00:52:20 oerjan: Ah, yes 00:52:38 this channel seems to be unionized 00:52:39 (spot the error in this reasoning) 00:52:53 shachaf: we're very electrically neutral indeed 00:53:16 oerjan: are you positive? 00:53:19 * int-e runs 00:53:20 int-e: My point with it is that you have scalar types Circle and Line 00:53:22 boily: which Jander 00:54:06 `? jander 00:54:07 Jander was murdered, or deactivated permanently, depending on which side you ask. 00:54:16 ↑ this one here Jander. 00:54:40 Circle, Line, and Point 00:54:56 boily: oh. someone's been adding scifi references to the wisdom. that one is asimov. come to think of it, Hari may be too. 00:55:12 although the Matrix is confusing in that context... 00:55:23 `culprits wisdom/jander 00:55:28 b_jonas b_jonas 00:55:38 b_jonasimov. 00:55:42 int-e: And compound types called a Plot (which is like a labeled list or named tuple; not quite a dictionary because the "labels" are just compile-time macros) 00:56:09 Maybe something other than a Plot, but you get the point- a way of organizing constructions into nice neat groups 00:56:14 specifically, Jander was a robot. i've only read plot synopses. 00:56:43 int-e: And... hm... I seem to have done something wrong 00:57:20 int-e: My point at a high-level is "Type theory can be done with logical proof, so why not other proofs?" 00:57:56 The naive approach is just to include the primitives as types and have functions matching the postulates, but I feel like there's another, more interesting way to do it 00:59:45 hppavilion[1]: the proofs of geometry include logic, and on top they have mathematical objects that are being talked about. i think that kind of thing may generally lead to dependent types... 01:00:03 oerjan: Yes, that might be it. 01:00:16 without dependent types, the logic only talk about the propositions themselves 01:00:20 oerjan: But I'm going for the ruler-and-compass constructive proofs 01:00:21 *logics 01:00:32 oerjan: Basically, I want to ruler-and-compass type theory 01:01:18 A type would be a series of circle constructions and line constructions, given an initial set of known points 01:04:49 -!- oerjan has set topic: Quite puzzling | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Oslo (not Christiania). 01:04:50 Huh. I suppose a type is something you can construct with a static series of steps and some points satisfying certain predicates 01:05:04 i felt nationally obligated hth 01:05:31 OR it is a predicate type... 01:05:55 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_axioms sets out a modern axiomatic framework for euclidean geometry 01:05:59 it's probably a useful start 01:06:10 Phantom_Hoover: Thank you 01:06:15 hey oerjan 01:06:35 phellover 01:06:42 can you prove stuff like the impossibility of the trisection with hilbert's axioms 01:07:26 Phantom_Hoover: probably? 01:07:37 Phantom_Hoover: Are hilbert's axioms equivalent to euclid's axioms? 01:07:44 it's not like i've looked at the axioms in detail 01:08:12 i guess you probably can, i was wondering if maybe you needed extra stuff to get all the necessary galois theory 01:08:12 hppavilion[1]: hilbert's axioms are basically filling in the loopholes because the ancient greeks weren't rigorous _enough_ 01:08:25 but otherwise, should be. 01:08:47 i still don't really understand what the point of axiom 4 of euclid is 01:08:57 oerjan: How do you prove whether a triangle is isosceles? Is there some way to reduce it to the intersection or non-intersection of two lines? 01:09:26 you can prove that two of its vertices lie on a circle centred on the third 01:09:41 Phantom_Hoover: That probably works 01:10:00 but in euclidean language i think you'd just say "the line segments AB and AC are of equal length" 01:10:04 Phantom_Hoover: well you need to be able to talk about what it means for something to be constructible, i guess that might not fit inside the first order logic of geometry itself. 01:10:19 oerjan, hilbert's axioms aren't first-order anyway 01:10:25 Phantom_Hoover: oh. 01:10:29 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but I need to know how I can check for equivalent-length lines 01:10:45 hppavilion[1], well then, as i said 01:11:18 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, that's what I'm going to do 01:11:31 Phantom_Hoover: Though I think I'll need some non-deterministic computing 01:11:37 http://euclidthegame.com/Tutorial/ is a game that basically takes you through explicit constructions of a lot of these things 01:14:35 Phantom_Helloover. AAAAAAAAAURGH! 01:14:43 don't remind me of that timesink of a website! 01:18:04 boily: relax, have another weird al https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwvlbJ0h35A 01:18:43 best weird al https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib2Vl7JEjfc 01:20:06 boily, i was just saved by its incredibly bad solution detection refusing to identify my perpendicular 01:20:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:21:52 (btw it needs to be watched until the end hth) 01:23:41 again with that weird issue. I get sounds, but no picture. it happens on some youtube videos for no apparent reason. 01:24:00 Phantom's video's fine, tho... 01:24:13 boily: darn :( 01:24:18 I know :/ 01:34:28 -!- tromp has joined. 01:34:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:36:37 -!- me4 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:37:14 -!- me4 has joined. 01:40:05 * boily lightly mapoles me4 01:40:10 another one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMCwiL6MZcY 01:42:06 -!- acertain has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:43:36 it's not a working gramophone :D 02:08:27 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:17:02 -!- acertain has joined. 02:21:50 -!- mad has joined. 02:23:42 I think I've figured it out 02:24:10 How to make a highly parallelizable CPU archi that can also be output from an ordinary C++ compiler 02:24:13 mellod. 02:24:33 some kind of Verilog/C++ crossover? 02:25:18 no, just an instruction set that's easy to run lots of instructions in parallel 02:27:07 you have an accumulator. every instruction writes its result to the accumulater, and also optionally to a register of the regfile 02:28:04 the instructions that don't have a dependency on the accumulator are the first instructions of each 'group' 02:29:29 -!- j-bot has joined. 02:29:30 also, each regfile register name can only be written to once, but you have an instruction to rotate regfile names and generate new ones 02:30:36 and the regfile is split into a few partitions so that values with different lifespans can be kept longer or shorter 02:31:09 so the cpu really only has 2 instructions 02:31:26 "generate N new register names" 02:31:28 and 02:31:53 "start executing a bunch of instructions at memory offset X" 02:33:00 the thing is, you can run another "start executing a bunch of instructions at memory offset Y", and you're guarenteed that it can run in parallel 02:33:35 because since every register is only written to once, you know that the group X and group Y will never write to the same registers 02:34:04 you'll also need seperate memory segments. 02:34:16 seperate methods of accessing I/O. 02:34:18 also if group Y reads from a register written to in group X, the register has a 'valid' flag and can simply wait until it's valid 02:34:30 ways of guaranteeing race conditions don't happen. 02:34:38 so.. there's a lot more than just a register file. 02:34:42 picobit : yeah, that's the catch... this solves arithmetic instructions but not really memory instructions 02:34:52 mad: look into flow based programming. 02:35:00 mad: that's truly a "shared nothing" paradigm. 02:35:25 actually I do have a plan for memory instructions too tho 02:36:07 memory instructions can also be instructions groups, with the catch that they can't have an accumulator 02:36:18 and they are run in-order 02:36:24 you're basically re-implementing atomics. 02:36:31 and threads. 02:36:49 yes but this can be output from a C++ compiler 02:37:04 it already is. 02:37:05 there's no way llvm can auto-threadify general purpose code 02:37:19 there's no way you can either. 02:37:29 because why would you want to "auto-threadify" something. 02:37:37 easy 02:37:40 I don't want my application suddenly barreling off, spawning off four threads. 02:37:49 I want to specify those threads and have control over them. 02:37:54 mapping them to some useful work. 02:38:05 if your cpu has N execution units 02:38:19 you can keep it busy with N "micro-threads" 02:38:41 okay, but you're not getting the fact that code is generally meant to be explicit about concurrency and parallelism, not implicit. 02:38:46 each unit is just an ALU + regfile write port + 2 regfile read ports 02:39:48 picobit : well, no this is a design to go get the 2/3/4 parallel instructions you can get implicitly 02:39:49 again, I don't want my prime number sieve spinning off into different threads, nor do I want any other code of mine to do so unless I explicitly specify it, and I can, and I will.. with existing threading libraries. 02:40:17 like, it's just a fancy design for an out-of-order cpu 02:40:19 your idea isn't really that useful when this exists as a solved problem. what you should focus on is better concurrency primitives. 02:41:50 my idea only has to be more useful than an out-of-order RISC in the style of the MIPS R10000 or quad-issue Dec Alpha or quad-issue PA-Risc or the x86 equivalents (3-issue amd athlon and so forth) 02:42:29 but.. you don't solve anything, you just succeed in the fact that "yeah, we can now, without much regard to what we're writing, spawn off threads for things that may not need them" 02:42:46 it's not going to be useful, we have out of order execution and atomic memory accesses already. 02:42:57 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:43:02 focus on some interesting methods of organizing concurrent systems. 02:43:12 if it's easy to build register files with dozens of read and write port and schedule a whole bunch of execution units then my idea is useless, right 02:43:14 believe me, you'll find some untrodden grounds. 02:43:28 mad: yeah, we call them threads and thread local storage. 02:44:19 by all means don't let me stop you, just bear that in mind, you're inventing something that already exists. 02:44:20 picobit : If I was looking at a highly threadable load, then I'd go for a totally different design 02:44:39 it's not even highly threadable. show me one instance where I'd prefer implicit threading. 02:45:07 and by implicit, I mean "I don't have control over it and the compiler will automagically do it for me." 02:45:10 like, if you have tons of explicit threads, you only need a 2-issue in-order cpu with lots of cores and hyper threading 02:45:17 that's what the SPARC does 02:45:26 okay. 02:45:30 if anything stalls, move on to next thread 02:45:40 solves a ton of CPU design problems 02:45:41 annnnnnnnd your implicit threading model would be akin tooooo... 02:45:59 it works for SPARC because it runs servers with dozens of concurrent programs 02:46:11 yyyup, and we specify explicit threads. 02:46:16 saving state, switching, etc. 02:47:02 my 'implicit threading' model is more like an attempt at doing hardware SSA 02:47:34 ..static security analysis? 02:47:42 :P 02:47:56 joking, but okay. 02:48:27 it's only a way to reduce the number of regfile reads and writes 02:48:30 -!- tromp has joined. 02:48:31 like 02:48:36 if you have a sequence like 02:48:49 sub r0, r1 02:48:54 mul r0, r2 02:48:57 sar r0, 16 02:49:05 add r0, r1 02:49:08 you want to automatically parallelize calculations by duplicating regfiles. 02:49:14 mul r0, r8 02:49:20 sar r0, 16 02:49:23 and running the same operations over those regfiles with local names. 02:49:49 that's all well and good but be explicit in the how and where. we already have this kind of thing. 02:49:55 well, first step is that I'd use an accumulator 02:50:13 sub ac, r0, r1 02:50:20 mul ac, r2 02:50:24 sar ac, 16 02:50:26 etc... 02:51:02 excluding that the accumulator is also a register, it only reads from the regfile once per instruction except the first one 02:51:15 and it only writes to the regfile once at the end to store the result 02:51:27 have fun 02:51:38 instead of doing 2 reads 1 write per op like on the MIPS 02:52:30 now, that instruction sequence is serial 02:52:39 it cannot be parallelized no matter how 02:53:05 -!- XorSwap has joined. 02:53:32 so that cpu is slower than a pentium or a dual issue ARM as of yet 02:56:17 picobit : I'm sorry that this doesn't fall into your preferred topic of parallelization primitives 02:56:48 mad: don't be offended by my criticism of your idea. any idea worth its salt will be criticised. 02:57:45 well, it's just a different design area 02:57:49 and a different fight 02:59:34 if you add the requirement of specially written c++ code to get the extra performance, then the mainstream approach is probably a combination of SIMD (SSE) and multi-threading 02:59:45 or giving up on c++ and doing GPU calculation 03:00:22 or potentially using a DSP architecture if it benefits from low-power/embedded stuff and is math-y 03:00:54 or using an FPGA 03:01:26 but that's all lower level than C++ 03:04:20 the challenge I'm interested in is running single threaded C++ fast... does that make sense? :3 03:04:53 and potentially higher level languages, which all benefit from the same stuff as C++ generally 03:08:44 -!- boily has quit (Quit: NAMED CHICKEN). 03:11:30 Mike, obviously. 03:14:19 picobit : basically you're criticising the whole idea of having fewer more powerful cores, rather than lots of small slower cores :D 03:15:26 mad: no, I'm criticising your idea of what parallelism in terms of both execution and programming is supposed to mean. 03:15:31 not interested in discussing it further. 03:15:37 so, cheers. 03:19:38 -!- earendel has joined. 03:20:08 it's like, you throw me off tracks then lose interest... not happy... but anyhow 03:26:16 -!- picobit has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:26:52 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:26:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:27:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:27:11 eep 03:27:29 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:28:12 -!- picobit has joined. 03:34:12 `twilight 03:34:20 `doomsday 03:34:22 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: twilight: not found 03:34:22 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: doomsday: not found 03:36:04 `wisdom facebook 03:36:09 facebook/Facebook is Taneb's face collection. 03:36:27 `wisdom twilight 03:36:28 ​/cat: : No such file or directory 03:38:35 -!- bb010g_ has quit. 03:41:26 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:43:25 -!- centrinia has joined. 03:46:05 -!- bb010g has joined. 03:54:46 <\oren\> DAMN! 03:55:03 <\oren\> It was flying really well until it exploded 03:57:54 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:00:23 <\oren\> but rather than changing the configuration, I'll just say don't pull more than 12 gees in this 04:03:19 -!- MDude has joined. 04:15:20 One thing I have design is the instruction set where other than reading the instruction opcode, there is up to one additional memory access which may be a read or write depending on the instruction (whether or not such memory access exists at all depends on the addressing mode, which is independent of the instruction code number) 04:20:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:20:33 /join #totallynormal 04:20:38 -!- hppavilion[1] has left ("Leaving"). 04:20:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:20:45 Whoops 04:23:03 "Java syntax borrows heavily from C and C++, but object-oriented features are modeled after Smalltalk and Objective-C.[11]" 04:23:13 Now image s/C and C++/something else/ 04:23:37 "Java syntax borrows heavily from brainfuck and Befunge-98, but object-oriented features are modeled after Smalltalk and Objective-C." 04:29:22 And then also s/Smalltalk and Objective-C/something else/ too 04:29:31 zzo38: No, we have to keep one part 04:29:37 zzo38: Or else it becomes less fun 04:29:38 OK 04:29:55 zzo38: What would be a BFJava Hello World? 04:30:20 It doesn't necessarily have to mean both Smalltalk and Objective-C, or to add a new one to those two 04:30:36 zzo38: True 04:34:03 {'HELLO WORLD'($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)} 04:34:41 zzo38: Something like that 04:35:03 $ is sys, $::~ is stdout, $::~::. is sys.stdout.write 04:35:27 _ is tape, _::^ is current tape cell, _::^::> is... hm.. 04:35:40 s/_::^/_/ 04:37:08 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:43:58 -!- centrinia has joined. 04:44:54 -!- j-bot has joined. 04:50:52 I have now been quieted on ##programming 04:51:50 :o 04:51:59 mad: Yep xD 05:01:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:04:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:08:26 <\oren\> so far my attempts to program in kOS have mostly resulted in crashes and expolsions 05:10:03 \oren\: kOS? 05:10:33 \oren\: The mythical Canadian wrapper? 05:10:37 *rapper 05:11:13 \oren\: Kid Operating System? 05:12:20 \oren\: Oh, looks like that Wikipedia article was deleted because it was someone's personal project, not a noteworthy thing 05:14:53 \oren\: Oh, is it https://www.reddit.com/r/kos? 05:18:02 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:18:50 that sounds like chaOS 05:21:03 Yurume_: Excellent puint. 05:23:13 knightOS? 05:27:46 ... 05:27:54 Kerbal arm skin color is #84D455 05:31:10 Wait, or BADA55 05:33:06 <\oren\> kerbal operation system 05:33:25 <\oren\> and so far, I can't program a launcher 05:37:24 <\oren\> which means all my probes are going to need to have constant radio signal, so I have to launch a ton of relay satellites 05:37:45 \oren\: Um. What's kerbal operation system? 05:37:57 \oren\: Please tell me it isn't a Billiard Ball Computer that uses gravity. 05:39:51 -!- picobit has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:40:13 <\oren\> no, it's a mod for the game which allows you to program your spacecraft to function autonomously 05:45:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:45:48 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:52:36 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 06:00:11 \oren\: Ah, good 06:04:02 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: do you ksp? 06:04:34 \oren\: I have it, but I don't use it often 06:05:49 <\oren\> ah. Soon I'm going to release my mod (like, probably tomorrow) 06:08:04 <\oren\> so it will add some parts that I think should have been in stock 06:08:31 <\oren\> It will add RCS thrusters that run on oxidizer 06:09:07 <\oren\> and a fuel cell that uses intake ait 06:09:12 <\oren\> *air 06:10:16 <\oren\> and saceplane parts with only fuel and no oxidizer in them 06:13:09 <\oren\> basically giving more latitude to make cool planes 06:16:23 <\oren\> and a fuel cell that runs on fuel and intake air allows to make cars that run like real cars kind of 06:18:35 -!- tromp has joined. 06:22:10 <\oren\> ooh. maybe I should add a resource called "MechanicalPower", parts that produce it from fuel and parts that use it? 06:22:24 <\oren\> That'll be in the next release I guess 06:22:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:27:01 Oooh, a programming language that crashes and raises an error when you program badly 06:27:04 Or at least a warning 06:31:24 <\oren\> don't most programming languages do that to some extent? especially C? 06:31:48 Nah, C doesn't reliably crash when you program badly. 06:32:00 Mostly what it does is behave very weirdly. 06:32:14 And especially bad programmers then rely on the weirdness and are surprised when it breaks. 06:33:02 -!- Alcest has joined. 06:42:10 -!- Alcest has quit (K-Lined). 06:44:59 "gcc writers examine the C spec under magnifying glass to find a flaw that gets 0.1% extra speed but breaks in a corner case when compiled on non-x86" 06:45:26 \oren\: Perhaps a punishment is enacted if you don't adhere to the style guide? xD 06:45:45 Like the compiler won't work for 1.1^count minutes 06:46:25 Where count is incremented every time you try to compile without adhering to some style guide (described in a .sg file) and reset when you do 06:46:32 like how they figured that technically the spec allows them to crash if an int wraps 06:47:04 and of course the whole strict aliasing business 06:47:08 They could add options and attributes and so on in order to adjust such thing 06:47:26 there ARE options to turn off strict aliasing and the like 06:48:04 You might want to adjust them with more specifics though 06:48:07 <\oren\> -fno-strict-aliasing -fwrapv 06:48:10 mad: Wait, how does integer overflow result in crashes? 06:48:11 Rather than just on/off general. 06:48:50 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: the c spec doesn't define what '\x7F'+1 is 06:48:59 What is the most terrifying-but-slightly-cryptic command name? 06:49:05 Fictitious or real 06:49:05 hppavilion[1] : it doesn't 06:49:07 but 06:49:09 Reality warping is allowed 06:50:06 <\oren\> Hehehe I would be a TERRIFYING pilot if I worked for an airline 06:50:08 they pretend that integers never overflow for the optimization of replacing 32bit counter values with 64bit values so that the cpu doesn't have to promote the value to 64bits every time on x64 06:50:36 as far as I can tell 06:50:53 Oooh, here's an idea 06:50:58 so code that works in 32bits might not work anymore if ints wrap 06:51:02 A language with both `odd' and `even' types 06:51:36 Also, I think languages with ADTs should have a `complex' keyword/ADT/whatever 06:51:57 At least in LLVM you could control type-based aliasing with more details, as well as doing other stuff that otherwise is messy or whatever in C, although there are some other problems with LLVM 07:10:28 \oren\: Depending on the implementations' other choices, there are two possible meanings of that. 07:10:35 It is either '\x80' or UB. 07:10:55 C doesn't say char is signed, C says char *may* be signed. 07:11:26 Also, char isn't necessarily 8 bits. :) 07:12:57 Also also, it's not just "technically": the spec literally says "signed overflow is undefined behavior". 07:13:14 It's not just a weird edge case, it spells it out for you that it is not defined behavior. 07:13:23 Just like the type aliasing rules. 07:14:09 I don't need signed overflow anyways in my programs generally, as I would use unsigned numbers in the cases where overflow wrapping would be useful anyways it would generally be more useful to use unsigned numbers in such cases. 07:14:38 Yeah. And C defines pretty exactly what unsigned overflow does. 07:15:46 char is like 07:16:00 it went signed on some places, unsigned on others, can't be fixed 07:16:08 everybody loses 07:16:11 Yup. So there's three variants of it. 07:16:19 There's signed char, unsigned char, and char. 07:16:22 You can explicitly set "signed char" and "unsigned char" when it cares 07:16:23 And now we're stuck with it. 07:16:25 it really should have been unsigned by default 07:17:00 But in some cases it does not matter if no arithmetic is being performed on it 07:17:01 I can think of one case for signed overflow 07:17:12 getting 0 when last bit is 0 07:17:20 Eh, for symmetry I would've preferred signed char to be default, but string literals to be unsigned char* (and all the C functions, and also the rule that char* can alias anything). 07:17:25 and 0xffffffff (-1) when last bit is 1 07:17:45 val << 31 >> 31 07:18:17 Bit shifting beyond the type's range like that on signed values is *also* UB. :) 07:18:29 how about decoding snes ADPCM 07:18:33 (4bit signed) 07:18:33 The reason is, well, frankly quite silly. 07:18:34 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:18:43 with overflow: nibble << 28 >> 28 07:18:51 C does not require implementations to have 2's complement arithmetic. 07:19:07 There are other ways to do sign extend anyways 07:19:09 ok please tell me what non-2's complement platforms are left 07:19:20 I didn't say it was reasonable. 07:19:26 I in fact said it was quite silly. 07:19:31 it's like 07:19:37 well, C supports ebcdic 07:20:07 But that's the reason. C quite specifically wants to support 1's complement and sign-and-magnitude arithmetic. 07:20:22 To be fair, there at least *are* users of C with EBCDIC. 07:20:25 Two's complement is the only mathematically reasonable way anyways 07:20:34 Which is utterly unlike the other sign representations. 07:21:33 I think char should be unsigned becaucause signed char is fairly rare imho 07:21:37 zzo38: You're correct about that, and I am damned glad that's what we settled on. 07:22:02 basically small numbers such as 8 bit sound sample data (which is unsigned usually but signed makes more sense) 07:22:17 I've also used signed 8 bit in like compressed FFT data 07:22:22 Much like how IEEE appears to be the only reasonable floating point representation. 07:22:31 mad: You could write "typedef unsigned char byte;" if you want to abbreviate unsigned char I guess, or else to use #define 07:22:34 IEEE has its quirks 07:22:38 (mostly due to being the only one with usable semantics) 07:22:45 mad: Sure, but the alternatives are worse. 07:22:50 zzo38 : uint8_t 07:23:05 mad: Yes or like that too 07:23:06 zzo38 : it's the one in that standard types header 07:23:12 stdint.h 07:23:23 yes stdint.h 07:23:24 <\oren\> just use -fwrapv 07:23:41 Which is also nice because if you compile on an utterly unreasonable system, your code just doesn't compile instead of running and failing horribly. 07:23:50 message to all people who use myLibSInt32 types and the like: use stdint.h 07:24:09 (reportedly there are such unreasonable systems, called "DSPs".) 07:24:12 Yeah, seriously. 07:24:23 pikhq: The case of floating points is different than the case of integers though. In the case of integers, two's complement is more mathematically correct, but in the case of floating point the representation isn't really mathematically correct but rather has certain properties of implementation, so it is different 07:24:27 Now that MSVC even supports it, there's literally no reason not to. 07:24:34 if you're on an unreasonable system, you're on a DSP and it's not like you're going to compile quake on that :D 07:24:55 or, like, arduino, which is 16bit C for some reason? 07:25:45 Two's complement is valid even for unbounded numbers 07:26:10 zzo38 : the real reason why IEEE is hard to beat is that it's what you can actually build in electronics 07:26:29 alternatives just don't translate into hw multipliers etc 07:26:54 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 07:27:05 although you could say that there's a practical alternative... "IEEE except all the slow values like inf nan denormals are replaced by 0" 07:27:29 mad: Yes, so there is the reason like that. What I have said is just that it isn't quite the same reason as I have described at first, although the reason having to do with electronics does help with both two's complement integers and IEEE floating point. 07:27:43 (The mathematical reason I described at first was only for integers though) 07:28:01 btw, have you read about unums v2 07:28:03 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:28:17 I don't know what that is 07:29:40 trying to find the paper 07:29:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:30:05 -!- John420 has joined. 07:30:17 http://www.johngustafson.net/presentations/Multicore2016-JLG.pdf 07:30:34 My own C programs are design for ASCII systems, although you might be able to run the program on EBCDIC systems by use of ASCII emulator I suppose; also by use of emulator you can even run program that use some feature not supported on the target system too in some cases. 07:30:59 v2 has fixed size numbers so it's a lot more reasonable... but: I'm pretty sure this doesn't scale to 16bit and 32bit numbers 07:31:20 ebcdic systems have 8bit bytes 07:31:50 if you simply ignore the platform's encoding then ebcdic disappears 07:33:45 If you don't rely on characters being particular numeric values, EBCDIC vs. ASCII doesn't really matter for most programs. 07:33:56 The big thing that causes issues is network programs. 07:34:34 TeX has stuff built-in in order to ensure that it will work with ASCII coding regardless of what coding the system it runs on uses 07:34:46 (FWIW, the '0' + x thing to get digits does work on EBCDIC. And *any* compliant C system, in fact. It's one of the few guarantees that C grants regarding the charset.) 07:35:38 I'm not even at that level of cross platformity 07:35:52 some of the code I've written has this in it: 07:36:05 #ifdef __BIG_ENDIAN 07:36:20 #error Code big endian support 07:36:22 #endif 07:36:35 Frankly, I just wish that the C spec would stop permitting utterly absurd implementations and require two's complement and UTF-8. 07:37:11 Allow me to grumble by listing the systems that people should care about that also don't do UTF-8: Windows 07:37:13 utf-8 libc in msvc would be a timesaver 07:37:15 I agree that it should require two's complement but should not require UTF-8 it should require ASCII (of which UTF-8 is a superset, so UTF-8 systems are compatible) 07:37:15 yes 07:37:23 like 07:37:32 the utf-16 stuff in windows is ridiculous 07:37:45 zzo38: I would be happy with only requiring UTF-8 if wchar_t supports anything beyond ASCII. 07:38:13 because of it we have a type that's typedefed to std::wstring on windows and std::string on osx 07:38:35 with conversion functions that do the whole utf16<->8 thing but are nops on osx 07:38:52 I don't like wchar_t anyways 07:39:18 wchar_t is useful in some cases 07:39:46 mostly string processing on languages that aren't english but don't have characters past utf-16 either 07:40:16 Note also that MSVC's implementation of wchar_t is non-compliant. 07:40:40 wchar_t is specified such that you can't have a code unit composed of two wchar_t's. 07:40:43 Yes, although my own opinion is that it should not be a built-in feature. 07:41:01 i.e. if you insist on having a 16-bit wchar_t, you are required by ISO C to only have UCS-2. 07:41:36 I wonder how many programs break if you give them >64k unicode chars 07:41:53 Depends. Probably a lot on Windows. 07:42:10 Not that many on Linux or OS X though; both of those have 32-bit wchar_t. 07:42:32 And programmers that mostly just go "eh, char's UTF-8. Whatever." and it all works. 07:42:57 reminds me of that program that used this library 07:43:11 I will implement my own UTF-8 parsing in programs that need Unicode, which is rare anyways. 07:43:21 libiconv 07:43:29 (In many cases just being 8-bit clean is good enough) 07:43:49 (And then it works with any kind of extended ASCII code which is compatible with ASCII) 07:43:56 problem: libiconv is lgpl 07:44:39 ... is only needed on Windows because Windows can't be assed to implement even the subset of POSIX that works reasonably in terms of Win32 semantics. 07:44:49 -!- John420 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:45:25 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:45:35 the program in question used some obscure japanese encoding 07:45:44 as in: not sjis 07:45:51 (I mean seriously, not having strdup? Granted that it's a simple function, but WHY?!?) 07:45:55 EUC-JP? 07:45:59 Though that's not that obscure. 07:46:02 yes euc-jp 07:46:07 dude 07:46:22 most programs that support like every crazy encoding 07:46:27 do not support euc-jp 07:46:43 Weird. It's used pretty heavily on the Japanese web. 07:46:53 Not as much as Shift-JIS, but still. 07:46:57 to even read the comments in the freaking code I had to import it in, like, open office 07:47:38 *Granted* that you basically won't see it outside of websites and Unix systems with really obstinate admins, but still. 07:48:15 also like all the string constants 07:48:19 were in that encoding 07:48:31 It was probably an old Unix program. 07:48:47 and it did all sorts of weird conversions so I didn't want to touch it 07:48:57 sorta yeah 07:49:00 Prior to Unicode's popularity, all Japanese Unix systems used EUC-JP. 07:49:04 well 07:49:09 it supported 3 encodings 07:49:28 eucjp, sjis and utf8 07:49:46 except all the dictionary data had to be in the matching encoding 07:49:52 and all the input/output 07:50:14 and basically the win32 version had sjis data instead 07:50:23 but I didn't have the source to that 07:51:31 There is also my own text character encoding design which is called UTCE and is meant for terminal displays rather than for typesetting anyways. 07:51:44 also: no way that I'll trust source code encoding 07:52:08 Legacy encodings. Sigh. 07:52:17 in theory it should be 'as is' but I'm not testing it 07:52:43 well, usually for C++ code it's really just latin-1 07:52:49 which is really cp-1252whatever 07:52:56 I always write the source code in ASCII 07:53:27 Therefore avoiding the problem to consider whether it is Latin-1 or UTF-8 or PC or whatever else it might be. 07:53:41 zzo38 : Obviously you haven't had to encode a list of french words that don't have liaison into c++ code 07:53:55 A reasonable approach if you can get away with it. 07:54:05 Unfortunately, not all is English. 07:55:01 That is true I have not had to do that, although in such a case I may have used escapes and then the code would contain whatever is needed to deal with whatever encoding it uses anyways so can avoid it, or else to use an external file for the list of words in case it will be extended later on too 07:55:12 it's like... is the svn client going to decide to reencode behind my back or something? 07:55:17 what about xcode? 07:55:46 Yeah... Everything but UTF-8 can go die in a fire. 07:56:04 Especially things that aren't supersets of ASCII. 07:56:28 But really, all of the legacy charsets should just go away. 07:56:49 There are many problem with Unicode 07:56:55 I've actually used latin-1 encoding for a good part of the french processing stuff 07:57:01 so it's not totally useless 07:57:03 but... yeah 07:57:14 Latin-1, or as I prefer calling it, UCS-1. :P 07:57:23 windows cp-1252 07:57:30 is the real name 07:57:48 Windows 1252 though isn't quite ISO-8859-1 07:57:54 zzo38: Yes, but they are vastly outweighed by the problems of having a wide number of other incompatible charsets, some of which have the *exact same problems*. 07:58:06 yes, windows 1252 has useful chars from 0x80 to 0x9f 07:58:14 instead of more totally useless control characters 07:58:15 pikhq: That is true, some do have the same problem, and sometimes additional problems 07:58:24 I admit I'd like a nicer charset, but it's hard to say exactly how to get there. 07:58:34 But converting raw 8-bit data to UTF-8 is also same as converting ISO-8859-1 to Unicode. 07:58:47 And at least UTF-8 appears to mostly fit peoples' use cases and actually freaking work. 07:58:48 pikhq: Well I have made UTCE 07:59:01 zzo38 : except for the windows-1252 specific characters 07:59:09 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 07:59:16 mad: Yes but then it isn't ISO-8859-1 07:59:33 if it's labeled as latin-1, it's not latin-1 07:59:40 it's really windows-1252 07:59:49 That's actually in the HTML-5 spec. 07:59:59 Which... matches real-world usage, as much as I hate it. 08:00:03 nobody actually uses the 'real' latin-1 with the 32 control characters 08:00:24 (You can convert UTCE to/from Unicode, although it is lossy either way, due to each missing characters of the other, some characters being ambiguous, and character widths sometimes differing) 08:00:25 because who the hell needs control characters 08:00:56 I use ASCII control characters in some applications, although that won't cause a problem with the C1 controls anyways since they aren't really ASCII 08:01:04 and basically they forgot œ in latin-1 08:01:20 so they snuck it into cp-1252 08:01:43 mad: That is a good correction yes, but it doesn't make it real ISO-8859-1 08:01:53 zzo38: The ASCII control characters will basically work regardless because, uh, I think everyone agrees on 'em. 08:01:54 nobody uses the real iso-8859-1 08:01:57 Even if ASCII doesn't. 08:01:58 :) 08:02:00 it's not a valid encoding 08:02:08 nobody wants it 08:02:57 Pretty much. 08:03:30 OK, although the command "utftovlq 81" converts raw 8-bit data to UTF-8, which in terms of Unicode text is converting the real ISO-8859-1 into Unicode so that is what it does, whether you want it to or not (you can use an external table to use custom conversion codes though) 08:03:57 it will break the day some guy writes œ in the text 08:04:28 Unless the program is being used incorrectly, it won't. 08:04:35 or € 08:04:51 like, if you have 8-bit data 08:05:05 from western european languages 08:06:20 the one situation that it happens is that it's the default 8-bit encoding for these languages since basically forever 08:06:33 that encoding is cp-1252 08:06:35 The encoding "8" of utftovlq corresponds to raw 8-bit data and does not propose specific meanings to it. If you want specific translations such as CP-1252 then you should use the "T" encoding type instead, in which case you will need to provide the encoding table file. 08:06:58 mad: Well, not "forever"... 08:07:12 Admittedly, the one they had before it is an old DOS codepage that *nobody* uses anymore. 08:07:18 right 08:07:22 Therefore trying to use "utftovlq 81" to convert Windows-1252 to Unicode is wrong 08:07:50 I use the PC character set though sometimes, such as when I need 8-bit text, though 08:07:54 zzo38 : so it only encodes stuff that uses the first 256 unicode codepoints 08:08:00 which is an encoding that nobody uses 08:08:19 pikhq : right, though that was tailored to different needs :3 08:08:32 gotta have all those box drawing characters 08:09:21 mad: It does not actually impose that the UTF-8 data is Unicode codepoints either; it just treats the data as a list of 36-bit unsigned integers. 08:10:06 However the code types "u" and "U" are UTF-16 and deal with surrogates properly. The code types "w" and "W" however are raw 16-bit data, not UTF-16. 08:10:36 anyhow 08:10:44 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:11:08 Therefore "utftovlq u1" will convert Unicode text from UTF-16 to UTF-8. If you instead write "utftovlq w1" you will get what is called CESU-8. 08:12:43 (Note however that "utftovlq 1u | utftovlq u1" will convert any Unicode text in UTF-8 that happens to be CESU-8 into proper UTF-8, while leaving proper UTF-8 as is, so the input may be mixed.) 08:14:32 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 08:15:10 I wonder if it would be possible to have a system that draws letters from the general characteristics of the font, rather than having a vectorial contour for each letter 08:15:51 so that if you had, say, a weird cyrillic letter in the text in chechen or something, it would automatically figure out how to do it in the style of the font 08:16:25 like you'd say "this is how a vertical stroke with serifs is done" and it would automatically combine strokes 08:16:43 <\oren\> Oh. I think that exists for chinese 08:16:45 Something like METAFONT can do similar things but would require the font to be precompiled anyways 08:17:38 If you modify the "vertical stroke with serifs" subroutine and then recompile it then you can get the version with different styles. 08:18:40 -!- tromp has joined. 08:22:26 So, such things already exists 08:23:19 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:24:03 (It is sometimes said that METAFONT does not do outlines and only does drawing with pens of specified shapes; actually it can do both.) 08:28:32 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 08:41:50 -!- mad has quit (Quit: Pics or it didn't happen). 08:46:30 This sentence contains "this sentence" twice. 08:47:24 -!- j-bot has joined. 08:59:08 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:03:32 This sentence contains "This sentence contains "This sentence contains "This sentence contains "This sentence contains " 09:08:28 This sentence isn't not false. 09:09:16 Bananas dananas. 09:09:54 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:19:58 -!- tromp has joined. 09:24:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:38:15 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:05:33 -!- Reece` has joined. 11:28:04 -!- dos has joined. 11:31:12 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:36:31 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:17:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:28:45 -!- idris-bot has joined. 12:29:17 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 12:32:16 -!- dos has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:32:16 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:52:26 -!- dingbat has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 12:57:29 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:59:12 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 13:00:58 -!- j-bot has joined. 13:08:18 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:08:30 -!- me4 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:19:14 -!- boily has joined. 13:21:33 -!- tromp has joined. 13:21:38 hmm, cleaning up my tmp folder... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/yesno.png is still brilliantly bad 13:26:42 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:28:37 what is the "smallest" logic that differs between "alice likes dogs" and "alice likes every dog"? 13:31:34 int-ello, mynamello. 13:31:36 i.e. forall x: dog(x) => likes(alice,x) would be the later, but not the former 13:42:25 . o O ( propositional logic... just assign true to "alice likes dogs" and false to "alice likes every dog" ) 13:42:39 :-P 13:43:02 I can't answer the actual question. 13:44:00 i may need to use something like: forall x: dog(x) => possibly likes(alice,x) 13:48:10 or just some kind of class/instance concept. forall x: instance(x, dogs) => likes(alice,x) vs. likes(alice, dogs) 13:48:49 (downside: you can't easily intersect classes... say, speak about yellow dogs) 13:49:21 but you can circumvent the problem of constructing a "typical" instance... or whatever it is that "alice likes dogs" really talks about. 13:50:58 dog(x)vis oretry much the same as instance(x,dog) 13:51:24 currently i translate yellow dog as dog(x)&yellow(x) 13:56:25 perhaps one can toy with a Bourbaki style operator... likes(alice, TYPICAL x. dog(x))) 13:57:42 i thought about something like that, but i guess that is equally bad to proove as is possiblygnecessarily 13:58:55 Grrr... "monetizing" URL shorteners are awful. 14:00:02 (Most of the link spam I see on IRC these days uses them.) 14:00:44 don't click on linkspam hth 14:00:54 monetizing? how can you monetize an URL itself? 14:01:05 adfly 14:01:35 khey, you want to open page x, thatjs fine. here is an app before i will put you there" 14:01:40 The URL shortener has a trampoline page that displays ads. The person who shortened the link gets a share of the resulting profit. 14:02:05 Hmm, installing an App is even better. 14:02:45 Anyway, it's one of those business models that only complete assholes would come up with or run... so there's a ton of these sites around. 14:03:15 yuck! 14:03:32 it's not as bad as these "want to see more nudes? make 2 million other people click this link" 14:03:51 I disagree, it's just as bad as that. 14:04:39 * boily drinks more coffee to cleanse his mind off of these atrocities 14:07:04 i get mich less spam from these adfly thingies 14:18:13 -!- iconmaster has joined. 14:23:40 `relcome iconmaster 14:23:43 i remember when minecraft modders started trying to monetise adfly 14:24:07 ​iconmaster: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 14:24:37 and when people started pointing out "this site is known to serve malware, we're not using it" they started massive drama and started making public blacklists and shit 14:26:51 -!- boily has quit (Quit: POCKET CHICKEN). 14:26:56 huh wha 14:27:36 Nice new colors, boily 14:28:11 And yeah, I recall that whole adfly thing, Phantom_Hoover. Hated the site. Glad people use CurseForge more these days. 14:39:35 new colors? 14:39:48 oh, `relcome 14:40:12 (I don't see those) 14:57:05 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:08:37 -!- picobit has joined. 15:16:28 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:34:27 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 15:35:00 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:35:10 -!- j-bot has joined. 15:51:02 -!- carado has joined. 15:57:27 -!- lleu has joined. 16:05:23 `quote 16:05:24 `quote 16:05:25 `quote 16:05:26 `quote 16:05:27 `quote 16:05:50 ....lovely spam, oh wonderful spam... 16:06:45 1213) I got my girlfriend through the previous job's intranet IRC channel, so I don't see how the two can conflict... 16:06:46 689) fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used 16:06:46 4) GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. 16:06:46 161) Vorpal loves the sodomy. elliott, sure why not 16:06:46 1037) would not be surprised to find out this tumblr is guerilla marketing by wolfram co to sell mathematica to stoners 16:08:32 `addquote `quote `quote `quote `quote ....lovely spam, oh wonderful spam... 16:08:39 1275) `quote `quote `quote `quote ....lovely spam, oh wonderful spam... 16:09:23 I should've said it 5 times. 16:10:36 (or better, quote 5 different lines of that skit) 16:10:45 1213 lacks context 16:12:05 Does it? My interpretation is that the conflict is between the girlfriend and IRC. 16:16:04 -!- tromp has joined. 16:17:15 -!- Reece` has joined. 16:21:27 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:24:25 -!- p34k has joined. 16:29:30 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 16:31:12 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:39:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:49:08 -!- iconmaster has joined. 16:49:15 -!- ineiros_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:51:35 abridged context: Don't worry, all that happens when you hit 20 is you start IRCing less. pikhq: what could possibly be a more important use of time, after all? * pikhq looks at girlfriend I got my girlfriend through the previous job's intranet IRC channel, so I don't see how the two can conflict... pikhq: only an amateur lets that interfere with IRC time. 16:52:54 -!- earendel has quit (Quit: earendel). 16:54:09 this is nice too... I'm completely drained, only a hollow shell of my past self. 16:54:42 -!- izabera has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:56:36 -!- gamemanj has joined. 16:56:51 I really need to get a cloak. 16:57:07 Then I can go all around the world, every day... 16:57:50 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:58:10 I would expect you would need more than a cloak to do that 16:58:21 * gamemanj points at the channel topic 16:58:58 -!- oerjan has set topic: Quite puzzling | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Chennai (not Madras). 16:59:02 ... 17:00:08 PROBLEM? 17:00:45 No, but I do wonder why on earth a Poetic Rock Orange Belated Linden Entity Master would exist in the first place. 17:00:57 next up, St Petersburg (not Leningrad) 17:02:54 How far ahead have you planned this? 17:03:07 not very far 17:04:47 is Beijing (not Peking) acceptable, it's just a transcription difference... 17:05:15 I'm wondering what on earth the general format is... 17:05:46 Judging by the "just a transcription difference", though, you're selecting a place, then a place that is nearby or something. 17:05:46 well it started when someone else put Istanbul (not Constantinople) there. you might reason from that. 17:06:26 One google search later... 17:06:32 So, renamings. 17:07:01 Chemnitz (not Karl-Marx-Stadt) 17:07:09 London (not Londinium) 17:07:09 int-e: ooh, good one 17:07:26 gamemanj: nah a bit close. Paris (not Lutetia), maybe. 17:07:40 * oerjan knows about that because Asterix 17:08:29 i think this could go on for a while. 17:09:01 Well, after parroting what little I know from history, I checked a wikipedia list. The full mess is: Londinium → Lundenwic → London 17:09:15 Lundenwic sounds a bit further... 17:09:20 oh Tokyo (not Edo) 17:09:59 gamemanj: well those all are descended from each other, is what i mean. 17:10:06 Ah, I see. 17:10:19 Well, since I have the cheat-sheet up anyway... 17:10:58 hm beijing has had other more distinct names 17:11:02 York (not Eburacum) 17:11:15 "Beijing, as Jicheng, was briefly the capital of the Xianbei Former Yan Kingdom." 17:12:10 _lots_ of distinct names, apparently. 17:18:24 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Beijing#Historical_names_of_Beijing 17:21:04 -!- izabera has joined. 17:22:49 huh what? 17:23:00 b_jonas: what what? 17:23:06 shachaf: what did you pbflist for? http://pbfcomics.com/ doesn't show a new strip 17:23:56 helloerjan 17:27:51 b_jhellonas 17:28:21 I guess brand names would be too easy. (Audi, not Horch... famous pun...) 17:30:00 `quote itidus21 17:30:03 630) myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die. \ 678) the possession of diamonds by the bourgeois is more about establishing their bourgeoisness more than wanting a malleable metal oops i forgot i said diamonds instead of gold \ 688) ok in oth 17:30:50 `` quote itidus21 | shuf 17:30:53 751) you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines \ 789) and all this time I thought we were talking about postmodern analysis of junk mail delivery methods and simulations of elephant breeding patterns \ 774) world peace is for fascists \ 771) elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years 17:34:35 Carbon, now in Metal form! 17:34:42 Get yours today! 17:37:49 -!- tromp has joined. 17:57:31 -!- osboxes has joined. 17:59:11 `` quote itidus21 | wc -l 17:59:13 15 17:59:18 today carbon, tomorrow helium 18:00:21 hmm all I could find is this rather old news... http://phys.org/news/2013-11-three-dimensional-carbon-metallic.html 18:00:38 int-e: me too 18:02:07 -!- osboxes has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:02:51 int-e: um, isn't that just graphite? if I understand correctly, graphite is when each carbon atom uses three of its electrons for covalent bonds to form a planar hexagonal grid of all carbon atoms, and donates one electron for a metallic bond that ties the sheets together. how is this different? 18:04:09 ah, I see, it's a stronger version with the three covalent bonds already tying together the whole thing, but all theoretical because they don't know how to synthetize. 18:04:46 like those magical really tiny solid state memory thingies that are impossible to manufacture short of assembling it atom by atom 18:05:06 * oerjan [citation needed]s gamemanj 18:05:42 b_jonas: yeah, not in particular that the red C atoms have 4 bonds 18:06:00 so it's a really funny structure 18:06:07 oh! 18:06:16 but that makes it even worse, doesn't it? 18:06:29 * oerjan currently playing tatham's slant puzzle 18:06:32 I mean, it would have less metallic electrons, so it would be a worse conductor probably 18:06:58 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:07:01 it's not very hard any more, so it somehow becomes a speed challenge. 18:07:43 don't trust me though, I'm not a chemist. ais523 is the channel chemist. 18:08:22 * oerjan once aced the highschool chemistry exam. but that was also the last time he really touched it. 18:09:48 oh, I aced a few of those too, because they were usually choose-an-answer tests from a single book, so we just cheated by using a key for that book 18:09:58 but that doesn't make me a chemist 18:10:01 this was an oral exam 18:10:06 ah 18:10:09 that's more difficult 18:10:22 b_jonas: I couldn't say... there should be enough free electrons around. 18:10:24 my first ever 18:10:33 felt pretty good as i recall 18:10:34 our chemistry lessons were so random I've got all possible grades 18:10:53 oerjan: nice 18:11:36 so much pressure... 18:12:03 all possible? including A minus 82.47655 recurring, with potential bias 28.01GU? 18:12:43 gamemanj: that may not be a possible grade hth 18:12:50 "may" 18:13:18 that implies it's something which could be called into question, it's definitely not a possible grade 18:14:13 gamemanj: well i'll admit it's probably a possible grade in some hypothetical universe hth 18:14:46 a _very_ pedantic one. 18:26:18 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 18:27:00 -!- picobit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:38:23 -!- dingbat has joined. 18:44:14 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:46:28 -!- atrapado has joined. 18:52:09 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:53:32 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:08:51 -!- earendel has joined. 19:09:23 Since I have the boom of PC Technical Reference then possibly I can make up a program to emulate the IBM printer of PC. 19:10:07 My calculation is that the DVI units for this program should probably be 1/11880 inch (which is coarser than TeX) 19:11:17 Do you like this? 19:13:37 zzo38: um, I don't really understand what you're saying 19:14:01 why are the DVI units 1/11880 inch? 19:14:34 Since that divides all measurements needed to emulate it, as far as I can tell from the documentation of the printer 19:15:31 I see 19:16:41 Do you know about the IBM printer codes? I have the book of it so hopefully I can implement it. 19:17:23 zzo38: I know a little bit, because I've had an Epson matrix printer when I was young, and the manual for it, and I think it's a bit similar 19:17:55 Yes; I have also read Epson manual and from the IBM printer document it seems that the Epson is a superset of the IBM codes. 19:20:23 -!- picobit has joined. 19:20:55 The Epson matrix printer can print formatted text with built-in or uploadable fonts, as well as bitmap graphics. It has nine pins offset iirc about one postscript point from each other, can move the paper vertically with a resolution of half of that, horizontally the points are about one postscript points wide on the paper, but it can use various higher horizontal resolutions for moving the head horizontally, with a max resolution perhaps 1/360 inch. 19:21:21 zzo38: yes, Epson deliberately put an IBM printer compatibility mode in their printer. 19:21:44 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 19:23:18 Oh, but where it's the most obvious that it's derived from IBM is that its ROM fonts are cp437 encoded, and it gives a way to access all 256 characters of that encoding, even the control characters. 19:27:02 I think you mentioned the IBM printer codes earlier on this channel. 19:27:38 "1/11880 inch"... that's pretty small 19:27:55 can someone translate into millimet(er|re)s? 19:28:13 gamemanj: it's not that small, it's only 1/165 postscript points 19:28:33 ah the days of "near letter quality" 19:28:38 oh, millimeters? it's 0.002138 millimeters 19:29:36 b_jonas: I don't think I'd seen the latest one before. 19:30:02 That's TINY! How am I supposed to use people with pencils to draw out a DVI file if the units are that tiny??? 19:30:26 shachaf: is "Adam 2.0" http://pbfcomics.com/274/ the latest? maybe I'm getting something wrong 19:30:34 I had a great plan! It involved biscuits! And people! With pencils... 19:30:44 * gamemanj quietly sobs in the corner 19:30:52 b_jonas: Yes, that one. 19:31:04 I recall a 9 pin printer that offered up to 240 dpi horizontally and 216 dpi vertically (with pins spaces 1/72in apart) 19:31:47 I don't recall any horizontal 360 dpi resolution... but it was a Citizen (cloning some Epson)... 19:31:53 int-e: that could match what I said about the Epson printer, because I don't quite recall the details 19:32:02 and I don't have the manual here 19:32:27 (Seriously, though, 0.002138mm is tiny. Go take out a ruler, and look at the size of a millimet(re|er). Now divide that by 500 or so. Ow.) 19:32:30 In any case, you'd probably need units smaller than that horizontally to represent a mixture of the various resolutions. 19:33:20 sure. 19:33:20 gamemanj: ^ the printer doesn't have that much resolution, that's just the unit you need for a representation of what it can print in an ideal model 19:33:47 Yay, so the world is sane!...now why on earth would even an ideal representation need to have that much resolution? 19:34:03 gamemanj: I don't know, ask zzo 19:44:46 -!- tromp has joined. 19:45:39 b_jonas: where did yo get that 11880 number? 19:47:22 b_jonas: more to the point, consider this: http://sprunge.us/GYXd (from http://www.ctan.org/pkg/dvitype) 19:49:23 int-e: “ My calculation is that the DVI units for this program should probably be 1/11880 inch (which is coarser than TeX)” 19:49:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:49:39 ah, sorry. 19:51:25 TeX uses its own internal sp ("scaled point") unit, of course. 19:52:07 int-e: yes, and that's iirc 2**(-16) real point 19:52:38 where a "point" is 1/72.27 inch. 19:52:54 yes 19:53:39 and a postscript point (named so beacuse postscript uses it as the unit in the original coordinate system before transforms) is 1/72 inch 20:03:38 gamemanj: It is possible for a DVI file to have larger units; the units used in the file are defined in the header. The reason you need that much resolution of 1/11880 inch for this purpose is because you cannot have separate horizontal and vertical units. 20:04:08 ...so? 20:04:18 zzo38: ok, but still, how did you get 1/11880 in particular? 20:04:45 (b_jonas is wondering on the specifics of the value, it seems - I'm wondering why it's so small.) 20:05:11 zzo38: you can have different units in DVI? Is that what \magstep does in TeX? 20:05:29 Vertically the IBM printer uses line spacing of 1/72 inch but it uses 1/216 inch for double printing. Horizontally it can have 10 character per inch, 5 per inch, 16.5 per inch, or 8.25 per inch. 20:05:58 b_jonas: No, TeX always uses the "scaled points" units. DVI however supports different units 20:06:17 zzo38: ok 20:06:26 (Given in the header as a fraction of decimicrons, with 32-bit numerator and 32-bit denominator) 20:06:28 zzo38: so you found a very large number that fits all of these units? 20:06:50 gamemanj: Yes, that is what I did. 20:06:58 "decimicrons" -- um, that's 10**-5 meters, right? 20:07:01 what a strange unit 20:07:08 strange name I mean 20:07:21 Strange unit, strange name, both are accurate. 20:08:27 gamemanj: nah, after computer software apis measuring time in each of 1, 10**-1, 10**-2, 10**-3, 10**-6, 10**-8, 10**-9 seconds, I don't find any power of ten strange. 20:09:24 And with different epochs, I'm guessing? 20:09:42 <\oren\> Why not measure in 60^-n seconds 20:10:24 1460833804 time goes really slowly! 20:12:01 Huh. I missed a Digit 3 event by 9.6508101851852 days. *sigh* I'm always late to everything... 20:12:46 \oren\: base 60 was very popular back when the ancient babylonians and arabs made calculations, but these days it's out of fashion and everyone uses powers of 2 and powers of 10 20:13:19 But what about powers of 3? 20:13:39 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: I have to go :c). 20:14:34 Z-machine uses deciseconds for timeouts, probably because the terminal control interface for UNIX uses deciseconds for input timeouts too. 20:14:40 hmm, was this jeans so dark before I put it in the washing machine? 20:16:38 <\oren\> did you put it in the same machine as some black socks? 20:16:41 b_jonas: I can't tell, your client doesn't support active jeans monitoring. 20:19:39 (An awkward silence hangs over the room for two minutes.) 20:19:47 s/two/three/ 20:22:27 -!- Reece` has joined. 20:37:13 -!- centrinia has joined. 20:37:19 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:38:52 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 20:44:06 TIS-100 is an interesting game. 20:49:01 "'Tis so." 20:49:46 TIS-100, or "Semi-esoteric programming, now on Steam!" 20:50:03 TIS-100, or "we're wasting processing power just buffering values" 20:50:19 Oh, we're de-fungotted again. 20:50:23 TIS-100, or "Timing is everything." 20:50:54 -!- fungot has joined. 20:51:03 Fungot! You're back! :D 20:51:08 TIS-100, or "I wish I had a stack." 20:51:14 ...fungot? 20:51:14 gamemanj: or make the x procedure be a parameter to make. instead of applying ep1 later we're going to get 20:51:18 Yay! 20:51:28 picobit: A stack? Who uses a stack, nowadays? 20:51:28 picobit: It's a bit case-sensitive. 20:51:41 * gamemanj smiles at fizzie 20:52:04 Uh, wrong person. Anyway. 20:52:13 gamemanj: me. the Forth-loving dude. :P 20:52:25 (Unless TIS-100 is case-sensitive, in which case, nevermind, ignore me) 20:52:46 No, 'tis was about 'got. 20:53:02 Also it has those stack nodes. 20:53:27 And fungot is also big on stacks, I'd guess. 20:53:27 fizzie: they generally prefer self evaluating! what a great verb would be a 20:53:41 TIS-100 has stack nodes? 20:54:07 Yes. Those separate stacks you send values to. 20:54:14 not that far in the game yet. 20:54:17 With a limited size. 20:54:19 (just bought it) 20:54:27 Well, you'll meet them. 20:54:31 cool. 20:54:44 They're as inconvenient as everything else in that game. 20:54:46 I was never much of a fan of "array processors" like this. 20:54:53 you spend more time routing values around than anything. 20:56:11 TODO: give picobit an FPGA 20:56:12 Protip: "JRO LEFT" (or any other direction) is super-handy. 20:56:18 gamemanj: already done. :P 20:56:57 It's (again) inconvenient when editing since you can't use labels for the offsets, but often saves a lot of space. 20:57:23 really reminds me of the green arrays 144. 20:57:45 Inconvenience is key. 20:57:49 Yeah, I've wondered whether that was an inspiration. 20:57:51 Otherwise it wouldn't be hard, would it? 20:58:23 still, not much of a fan. I'd rather a sort of "ring" pipeline. 20:58:38 where you can pick things off at will. lends itself better to asynchronous logic too. 20:58:52 The most convenient game is written in one line of shell script, and the line starts with "echo ". 20:58:54 -!- Vorpal has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:59:02 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:05:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:12:35 -!- boily has joined. 21:13:25 -!- gremlins has joined. 21:14:42 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:22:15 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:28:37 I should buy prog.io 21:28:44 And make a codewars-like game 21:28:51 s/codewars/corewar/ 21:31:50 -!- Reece` has joined. 21:32:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: TABULAR CHICKEN). 21:33:22 -!- gremlins has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:34:17 Idea: programming roguelike 21:34:19 Called Progue 21:34:43 Taneb: Oooh 21:34:55 Taneb: We need a computational class called "C-Complete" 21:35:22 That'd... just be a large finite state automaton 21:35:26 Where it's TC aside from memory limitations, but the memory may be arbitrarily large-but-finite 21:35:32 Taneb: See ^ 21:35:56 That's a fairly useless computation class 21:36:06 So it's not TC, but it can perform any finite-memory computation given a properly-sized machine 21:36:08 It's "Is at least as powerful as a finite state automaton" 21:36:22 Taneb: It's not useful for theory, but it's good for discussing languages 21:36:28 hppavilion[2]: Would BytePusher fall under that? 21:36:32 Taneb: C is not TC, but its memory has no bounded size 21:36:46 hppavilion[2], yes it does 21:37:06 Taneb: I mean that the size is bounded for a given implementation 21:37:17 Taneb: But C in general doesn't have a baked-in memory bound 21:37:23 gamemanj: No, but an arbitrary WordWordJump machine would 21:37:38 `wisdom 21:37:39 gamemanj: WordPusher, which is BytePusher with a CPU other than ByteByteJump 21:37:44 utumno/Utumno is Morgoth's first dungeon. It is where he was defeated, and the Silmarils temporarily reclaimed from him. 21:37:56 gamemanj: WordPusher is a class of machines, while BytePusher is a single machine 21:38:07 `wisdom 21:38:08 universal property/Universal properties are the best. 21:38:19 `? free 21:38:20 free? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:38:22 Is that a joke? 21:38:40 `wisdom 21:38:42 thwackamacallit/A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole. 21:38:45 ... 21:39:01 Why did I ask of the pool of wisdom 21:39:16 `slashlearn free/A free structure is one that has no nontrivial identities, except algebraist phrase that in a much fancier way with morphisms. 21:39:19 Learned «free» 21:39:20 gamemanj: Because wisdom is never wrong 21:39:22 `? free 21:39:23 A free structure is one that has no nontrivial identities, except algebraist phrase that in a much fancier way with morphisms. 21:39:23 `? wisdom 21:39:24 wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø? 21:39:26 `? mapole 21:39:29 A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg. 21:39:30 b_jonas: See 21:39:36 hppavilion[2]: which one is a joke? 21:39:43 `` ls wisdom/ø* 21:39:45 wisdom/ø \ wisdom/øl \ wisdom/ørjan 21:39:56 b_jonas: Universal Properties 21:40:04 `? ø 21:40:06 ​ø is not going anywhere. 21:40:08 b_jonas: Is its `wisdom itself a universal property? 21:40:10 ``` find wisdom -iname "*hpp*" 21:40:11 wisdom/hppavilion[42] \ wisdom/hppavilion1 \ wisdom/hppavilion[1] 21:40:21 `? hppavilion[1] 21:40:21 hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe. 21:40:25 `? hppavilion[42] 21:40:26 hppavilion[42] is the awesomest person you will ever meet. Much awesomer than oerjan. 21:42:07 `? hppavilion1 21:42:08 higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed 21:42:54 `le/rn hppavilion/hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk 21:42:57 Learned «hppavilion» 21:43:31 For those wondering, '+'.join([str(random.randrange(-42, 69))+suff for suff in ['', 'i', 'j', 'k', 'ij', 'ik', 'jk', 'ijk']]).replace('+-', '-') 21:44:04 hppavilion[2]: huh... is that python or something? 21:44:07 b_jonas: Yes. 21:44:40 A language called Garfield that emphasizes lazy evaluation, generators, iterators, etc. 21:44:50 (A practical language, that is) 21:44:59 wait, .replace('+-', '-')? doesn't python just have format('{+d}',n) or something? 21:45:00 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:45:17 b_jonas: It might, but I don't know the format notation 21:45:32 ok 21:47:47 b_jonas: Does garfield sound like a good language? 21:49:07 does garfield execute on mondays? 21:50:12 myname: Garfield's time libraries don't even have a concept of mondays 21:50:55 myname: The metaphor stops at lazy evaluation 21:55:10 lasagna dhould be a primitive 21:56:10 myname: It's a serious language to /some/ degree 21:57:04 :( 21:57:31 myname: Well /sorry/ 22:02:27 -!- dingbat has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 22:16:21 zip(d) := {k:v for k, v in d} 22:18:34 myname: It appears that Garfield is largely declarative 22:18:35 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:23:16 -!- earendel has quit (Quit: earendel). 22:30:25 I read that at least thrice as "Garfield is largely decorative". 22:31:46 I thought that's John 22:35:37 I also thought it was referring to a language called Garfield that had nothing to do with the comic strip. 22:36:05 And this swipey keyboard can't spell strip. 22:36:48 It keeps doing syrup, step, strop, etc. 22:37:08 . o O ( classic Garfield... this was as funny as it got... http://www.gocomics.com/garfield/1978/06/19 ) 22:37:37 (I'm kidding. One or two of the later strips are funnier than that.) 22:37:38 * int-e runs 22:38:22 I wonder if you could train a Markov generator to try to write Kányádi Sándor poems 22:39:05 I think I used to read Garfield steps... stripe... steps... syrups... steps... whatever in some magazine. 22:39:53 what is wrong with that keyboard? 22:40:06 are you on some touchy mobile device? 22:40:11 fizzie: probably strip is a dirty word 22:40:34 I think it would be much easier to make the output superficially similar than if you tried to imitate Arany János or Weöres Sándor poems. 22:40:51 (No, I don't mean to say his poems are bad. Just different.) 22:44:58 int-e: It's an Android phone, right. 22:45:30 I think maybe there was a content filter option in the settings. 22:46:05 -!- tromp has joined. 22:47:03 Also I think the swipe algorithm only looks at the shape and not the timing, so there's no way to indicate the difference between "strip" and "strop", the latter of which it deigns to type. 22:48:43 You should be allowed to type both words and also to be able to type any word you make up by yourself too 22:49:28 fungot, can you imitate Kányádi's poems? 22:49:29 b_jonas: bad joke. i typed " not me. it's obvious he's not a lunatic. ;d 22:49:32 zzo38: It pulls up a selection of words from the dictionary and just defaults to picking what it thinks is the likely one. 22:49:43 I turned off the "block offensive words" option, but it still doesn't want to strip. Wait. It did. 22:49:44 that was somewhat approperiate 22:49:51 ... Also, IIRC it lets you add words to the dictionary pretty easy. 22:50:41 However using a proper keyboard would be better than using touch-screen anyways. 22:50:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:50:54 pikhq: It was in the dictionary all the time at least according to spellcheck -- at least it wasn't underlined in red. 22:51:02 *shrug* 22:51:05 zzo38: True. 22:51:07 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:51:16 -!- bb010g has joined. 22:51:45 I have a relatively reasonable Bluetooth keyboard for this, but left it at home_2. 22:52:08 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 22:55:03 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:01:26 -!- dos has joined. 23:02:14 -!- p34k has quit. 23:02:31 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 23:03:32 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:05:33 I want to write a compiler. Should the language be LISPy or something Cish? 23:06:27 dos: Either way would work. I can suggest to be like LISP 23:07:16 zzo38: OK 23:07:19 -!- dos has changed nick to hppavilion[1]. 23:10:32 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:11:40 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 23:12:13 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 23:15:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:28:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:32:59 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:38:14 "decimicrons" -- um, that's 10**-5 meters, right? <-- 10**-7, surely 23:38:14 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 23:38:34 `bienvenido Marcela_Gandara 23:38:38 oerjan: oh... that's even worse 23:38:39 ok 23:38:39 Marcela_Gandara: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.) 23:39:48 `wisdom 23:39:50 xyzzy/Nothing happens. 23:39:51 -!- jaboja has joined. 23:39:54 `wisdom 23:39:55 esoteric/This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet. 23:40:05 yeah yeah, 23:40:07 I knoe 23:40:09 `wisdom 23:40:12 sbus/SBus is the standard bus in many a Sun SPARC-based system, capable of coping with thirty-two (32) bits in parallel, at rates of around 16.67 to 25 MHz. There is a 96-pin connector, and the cards lay parallel to the motherboard, like toppings on a sandwich. 23:44:26 Oh, we're de-fungotted again. <-- . o O ( how long before fizzie breaks down and implements DNS lookup ) 23:44:26 oerjan: if fnord p is too much 23:46:12 i guess it'll take a bit more to get completely autonomous reconnection 23:47:17 (you'd also probably need nick collision handling...) 23:48:13 -!- hydraz has changed nick to cnydraz. 23:49:48 -!- me4 has joined. 23:51:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:51:45 wow 23:52:44 b_jonas: ikr? 23:53:21 You know how on interent forums people often start a post with something like “I'm surprised nobody mentioned such and such”. I find that somewhat annoyingly superfluous, especially when they do that very quickly before most posters have had a chance to mention anything. 23:53:46 But this is the first time I saw a post starting with basically “I'm surprised I have never mentioned such and such” 23:54:05 i'm surprised you have never seen that before 23:54:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 2016-04-17: 00:04:35 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:05:10 wow, the TIS-100 is capable of flow-based programming... it has backpressure. 00:06:27 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:07:13 -!- int-e has set topic: Surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Chennai (not Madras). 00:08:11 gasp 00:10:55 I/O operations block on their respective nodes until they have needed data. 00:18:52 `unidecode Kohctpyktop 00:18:54 ​[U+004B LATIN CAPITAL LETTER K] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0070 LATIN SMALL LETTER P] [U+0079 LATIN SMALL LETTER Y] [U+006B LATIN SMALL LETTER K] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0070 LATIN SMALL LETTER P] 00:20:28 -!- iconmaster has joined. 00:20:29 I had not realized that КОНСТРУКТОР can be rendered using standard latin letters... but it's really spoiled in lower case. 00:21:25 (context: http://www.zachtronics.com/kohctpyktop-engineer-of-the-people/ ) 00:22:08 compare: конструктор 00:23:49 I like words that can be rendered like that, like PECTOPAH 00:24:43 maybe you could use latin smallcaps? 00:28:48 I had a random idea about making an esolang with an alphabet restricted to the overlap between cyrillic and latin, with e.g. H as an alias for Н 00:29:00 (called PECTOPAH) 00:29:32 olsner: EXCE... um. 00:29:37 (TIS-100 and Spacechem are games by the same company) 00:30:08 oerjan: EXCEwhat? 00:30:39 olsner: EXCEsomethingthatdoesn'tfitthescheme 00:33:06 otoh, this is pretty annoying: https://www.modulargrid.net/img/modules/v6/1026.jpg (cyrillic-lookalike for "autobot", but with my rudimentary cyrillic skills, that's something like PUGOSOG) 00:36:00 olsner: there exists something like that: car registration plates in Macedonia use the ten letters that appear in both the Macedonian alphabet (which is similar to the Serbian cyrillic alphabet) and the English alphabet (plus they use the ten digits). 00:36:49 `? zkstr 00:36:50 including e.g. H and P that look the same but have different sounds? 00:36:55 zkstr is a common consonant cluster at the start of Russian words, see eg. http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/metro-typo-2 00:36:56 olsner: yes 00:37:43 olsner: for a reg plate, the important thing is that you can write it up or remember it to later report, not to pronounce it 00:40:54 olsner: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Old_license_plates_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia should give a rough idea of how thus looks like in practice 00:42:48 although that shows the letter G so I don't quite get how it works 00:43:10 but other than G it does seem to match\ 00:43:37 ok, no, it also has Z 00:43:41 I dunno then 01:17:42 -!- tromp has joined. 01:22:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:35:27 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:39:15 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 01:39:40 For spheres, why don't we just use π++? 01:39:50 (π++ = 4π/3) 01:40:42 Better yet, there should be an alternative syntax that treats π as a sequence rather than a constant 01:41:54 π_n = r^n/volumeOfNSphereWithGivenRadius(n, r) (forall real r) 01:48:45 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:00:39 -!- centrinia has joined. 02:00:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:09:13 "Subclass" is a silly word 02:09:26 As is "Superclass" 02:10:26 Even in the most rigorous environments, in which subclasses never overload a method (or where methods have the same behavior with some added), they're increasing the stuff in the class, not decreasing it as a subset does 02:11:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:11:45 sgello 02:12:07 Here's a little HackEgo command I think would be funny 02:12:12 \`language 02:12:44 It takes a number of files listing terms and spits out a buzzword-filled language description 02:13:24 (Along with the `language.define command, which defines buzzwords (though potentially involving more buzzwords that you need to define (inevitably forming infinite loops))) 02:14:05 I say "little HackEgo command", but it'd probably take hours of development to make it work 02:14:47 well that was fun. 02:15:54 The images captions @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test are awesome 02:15:59 picobit: Was that directed at me? 02:16:03 hppavilion[1]: nah. 02:16:06 picobit: OK 02:16:18 hppavilion[1]: playing TIS-100. 02:16:24 picobit: Yay! 02:16:29 some of these scheduling problems are really fun. 02:16:30 picobit: TIS-100 is awesome! 02:16:35 it is. runs well too. 02:16:44 (btw, I'm not in ##programming anymore) 02:16:48 picobit: Though I got stuck on the one where I find the length of an array or something 02:16:56 picobit: I'm now muted there, so... 02:16:59 lmao. 02:17:01 sequence length? 02:17:13 I passed that problem a few minutes ago. 02:17:25 hold on, I'll screen the solution. 02:19:22 hppavilion[1]: http://imgur.com/a/KxB88 02:19:41 picobit: I think I had to find sequence length AND something else 02:19:47 hppavilion[1]: length and sum. 02:19:50 picobit: The length and sum 02:19:51 picobit: Yes 02:20:03 picobit: I couldn't figure it out because there weren't enough registers xD 02:20:15 hppavilion[1]: I used a buffering technique present there. 02:20:22 picobit: Ah, yes 02:20:30 essentially you send the value twice, since we don't send until two nodes agree. 02:20:46 it's expensive on cycles but it's the only way I thought of. 02:21:03 this way you can use the previous node's accumulator to buffer for the comparison. 02:27:21 picobit: I'm designing an image format called AGIF (Advanced Giraffical Interchange Format) 02:28:14 picobit: It aims to be like GIF with some simplified event-driven scripting (e.g. eyes that follow the mouse) 02:29:02 fun! 02:29:07 picobit: Yep! 02:29:15 I think SVG can also do but with vector graphics instead 02:29:24 zzo38: ...damn 02:29:38 lol. 02:29:49 zzo38: Though AGIF does support vector graphics (in the form of PNG), as well as raster graphics (in the form of JPG) 02:30:06 PNG is not even a vector graphics format though 02:30:18 zzo38: Really? I seem to remember it being vector... 02:30:26 Also JPG is lossy 02:32:01 zzo38: Yes, it is 02:32:12 holy shit, we get to divide numbers in TIS-100? 02:32:38 that's evil. 02:32:49 zzo38: But that lossiness, when used to encode non-computronic images (e.g. a picture) leads to fucking amazing compressoin 02:33:13 zzo38: Which is worth it given that you can't even tell 90% of the time unless you are also looking at the original 02:33:26 Yes it can help to improve the compression so that it why it is used for photographs 02:33:42 zzo38: Yes, that's why I support it 02:33:52 Yes OK 02:34:19 zzo38: Computer graphics are supposed to use whatever vector format I choose, photographics are supposed to use JPG 02:35:03 zzo38: Well, strictly speaking, since you usually won't be using AGIF for anything but programmatic GIF, you shouldn't use it for photographs at all 02:35:12 zzo38: The same way nobody uses GIF for static images 02:35:31 zzo38: I can't find any generally-used binary vector formats. Weird. 02:35:55 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:36:20 zzo38: I now have to invent BVF too, of course 02:36:54 Or should I call it BVI? 02:37:02 PNG is much better than GIF anyways. That is why GIF is no longer used for static images (in the past they used to do though, before PNG was invented) 02:37:18 zzo38: Yes, you are correct 02:37:33 zzo38: TIL that GIF only supports 8-bit colors 02:37:39 (At least, originally) 02:38:45 Eh, BVIF will do 02:38:55 It's not really meant for usage outside of AGIF anyway 02:40:24 That is part of it too yes, and there are other problems also with GIF. GIF only does paletted pictures, uses inferior compression, does not support alpha transparency, and is patented. Those are a few of its problems. Animated PNG is also possible although it isn't common, so GIF is still sometimes used for animations 02:44:09 zzo38: GIF's patents expired ages ago... 02:44:16 2004 02:44:21 deltab: Thank you 02:44:34 Yes that is true 02:44:37 zzo38: And for BVIF... I need a binary JSON xD 02:45:17 There are a few different formats that are like binary JSON, including something I have designed some time ago, I will have to try to find it 02:45:31 holy fuck I didn't know this game had an image console. now I have to write a raytracer. 02:49:56 zzo38: It's not so much JSON as EJSON 02:50:02 (extensible json) 02:50:44 zzo38: Do you know the name of the encoding that UTF-8 uses? Where the high bit being 1 means "include next byte" 02:51:07 picobit: You don't *have* to, you just *want to at the moment* 02:51:29 picobit: Also, use of actual formatting on IRC as opposed to Human Markup offends me. 02:52:14 lol. 02:52:59 Meh, I'll just call it "variable-width include-bit encoding" 02:53:27 hppavilion[1]: I just call the encoding UTF-8 02:53:37 Whether or not it is being used to encode Unicode text. 02:53:41 zzo38: Yes, but the concept of the encoding. 02:53:43 zzo38: Ah 02:54:00 I think "the UTF-8 encoding algorithm" is probably the best unambiguous way of referring to it. 02:54:17 protobuf calls it varint: https://developers.google.com/protocol-buffers/docs/encoding#varints 02:54:26 What is extensible JSON? 02:55:00 I don't think protobuf varints are the same as UTF-8. 02:55:28 zzo38: It's something I made up for the purposes of this discussion 02:55:37 UTF-8 has the number of leading 1s in the first byte indicate how many bytes remain in the encoding, after all... 02:55:41 they're not: they're 'the high bit being 1 means "include next byte"' 02:55:51 pikhq: Yes, though I'm not doing that 02:55:55 OIC 02:55:57 pikhq: So I guess I need another name 02:56:08 pikhq: It's the first bit of each byte constitutes whether to include the next 02:56:23 "Each byte in a varint, except the last byte, has the most significant bit (msb) set – this indicates that there are further bytes to come. The lower 7 bits of each byte are used to store the two's complement representation of the number in groups of 7 bits, least significant group first." 02:56:44 UTF-8 is different from VLQ 02:56:52 zzo38: VLQ? 02:57:05 VLQ is used for the timing in MIDI files 02:57:09 zzo38: Ah 02:57:39 It is base 128 numbers where the high bit of each byte indicates that another byte of the number follows and is big endian numbers 02:58:01 (There is also small endian VLQ used in some other file formats, and also signed VLQ is another variant.) 02:59:07 And then there is also my variant where specifying the first byte of the number as 0x80 results in a place value of 128 instead of 0 03:00:43 hppavilion[1]: I know you made up EJSON but it does not quite explain the details? 03:00:55 zzo38: I didn't invent any details 03:01:04 zzo38: I literally just made it up on the spot 03:01:09 zzo38: As an example 03:01:23 Then how do you know how to do it? You have to figure out 03:01:44 zzo38: But if you want specifics, it's "Anything that's like JSON, but has extra stuff mixed in defined by the specific EJSON-decoding algorithm" 03:02:08 zzo38: It's just a way to talk about things that are like JSON++ 03:02:55 RDF is extensible though by adding whatever data types and data structures you want to put, although conversion can be done without needing specific parsers for such stuff 03:03:49 there are some binary vector formats used in GIS, for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapefile 03:07:29 (You probably do not need RDF in this case, although I wouldn't know all details of what you are doing of course) 03:12:50 the Draw file format: http://www.riscos.com/support/developers/prm/fileformats.html#31018 03:17:45 -!- centrinia has joined. 03:20:30 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: MDude). 03:30:04 zzo38: OK, I've got EBO defined 03:35:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:43:54 -!- XorSwap has joined. 03:45:27 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:46:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 03:47:17 zzo38: I don't need RDF because I'm going for a binary format 03:50:21 I think these situations are independent 04:02:24 Ugh, BOX DRAWINGS VERTICAL HEAVY AND RIGHT LIGHT doesn't have a right pokey thing in it 04:02:27 In my font, that is 04:02:36 If only I could access the font creator to tell them. 04:02:37 ... 04:02:38 Oh wait 04:02:45 \oren\: BOX DRAWINGS VERTICAL HEAVY AND RIGHT LIGHT looks wrong. 04:07:45 -!- Kaynato has joined. 04:08:30 `unrelcome testPerson 04:08:46 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unrelcome: not found 04:08:52 `colorize 04:08:59 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: colorize: not found 04:11:04 zzo38: Wait, does RDF have a binary output option? 04:17:02 -!- picobit has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:24:25 hppavilion[1]: There are different file formats to store RDF, so it is possible to use a binary format. It would also be possible to make a program that takes RDF data and output a binary file of some specific format based on such thing. However, as I have said you do not necessarily need RDF for what you are doing anyways 04:24:51 zzo38: Yeah, probably not 04:25:02 zzo38: I'm considering submitting these as ESOSC standarsd 04:25:05 *standards 04:35:15 `danddreclist 77 04:35:17 danddreclist 77: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex 04:36:15 -!- dingbat has joined. 04:50:22 -!- picobit has joined. 04:54:56 -!- MDude has joined. 04:56:56 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:18:09 I wonder... 05:18:17 Is it actually possible to put out a fire with gasoline? 05:18:54 With sufficient gasoline, probably. 05:18:56 It seems like with enough (like, a few kilolitres or so) poured on the water all at once, you would cut off the error and the gasoline wouldn't ignite 05:19:05 s/error/air/ 05:19:17 (Wow, impressive typofication) 05:19:41 You can't really get a normal fire without oxygen. 05:20:22 That said, I strongly advise against trying to put out fires with fluorine. 05:21:29 pikhq: Yes, that's what I said. Oxygen. 05:21:35 Well, I said "air" 05:21:50 Well, "error" until [20:19:03] 05:23:02 (I consider α-expressions with s as their command to literally change history, rather than just correcting a mistake) 05:23:20 I also strongly advise against doing much of anything with fluorine or its compounds, really. 05:23:32 pikhq: That is a fair piece of advice 05:25:31 do keep brushing your teeth, though 05:25:37 Don't trust a guy who would help you dispose of a body, he knows how to dispose of a body. 05:25:40 `advice 05:25:49 deltab: Okay. 05:25:50 deltab: "keep" brushing my teeth? 05:25:52 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: advice: not found 05:26:00 * pikhq squirts some krypton difluoride on his teeth 05:26:02 Like this? 05:26:22 `advice should be similar to `wisdom, but it doesn't associate the information with words 05:26:28 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: advice: not found 05:26:52 `` cat bin/wisdom 05:26:55 F="$(find wisdom -name "*$(echo "$1" | lowercase)*" -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnoooooodl; cat "$F" | rnoooooodl 05:27:41 pikhq: A *n?x that doesn't distinguish between files and folders... 05:28:10 Y'mean all of 'em? 05:28:18 Unix directories are literally files. 05:30:24 hppavilion[1]: yeah, keep brushing, but take breaks of around 12 hours every couple of minutes 05:30:24 https://www.quora.com/Why-are-visual-basic-programmers-laughed-at-by-other-programmers/answer/Mark-Flory?srid=dS99 is awesome 05:30:59 pikhq: Yes, but they don't hold anything more than a pointer to the next file. Or something. I'm not very good at *n?x 05:31:35 pikhq: I'm talking one where /every/ file with a body is /also/ a directory with members, and vice versa 05:31:55 Ah. 05:32:06 pikhq: Yes. 05:32:29 pikhq: And there would be tools like exj that turn a .json into a whole directory 05:32:54 (well, not a .json, because *n?x, but a file with the JSON mimetype) 05:33:22 pikhq: I have also considered an OOFS, but OO is bad and I should feel bad 05:39:07 IMO, for actual purposes OSes should have three types of applications- Applets, User Applications, and Admin Applications 05:39:55 Applets run in their own subsystem that follows the SILO model, user applications have access to all non-protected parts of the filesystem, and admin applications have full-system access 05:40:11 -!- earendel has joined. 05:40:48 All three of those also have their own Windows-like registry (because config files are getting old), and Admin applications can mess with registries of other applications (including the OS) 05:41:49 It's been suggested that we should use the mobile phone model where EVERYTHING follows the SILO model, but I quite like being able to open documents with both Notepad++ and other applications 05:41:53 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:51:42 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:53:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:55:58 pikhq: Monadic File System 06:04:32 -!- tromp has joined. 06:08:13 -!- picobit has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:08:46 Hm... seeing as monads are like burritos... 06:08:54 ...Burritoid File System 06:11:20 Monads are like burritos? 06:11:37 That is what they say but it does not really make sense so much 06:11:48 I thought burritos were like monads. 06:12:13 This may explain my poor understanding of the burrito category. 06:21:06 zzo38: Do you understand Monads well enough to get what a Monadic filesystem would be like? 06:21:14 Because I really don't 06:33:28 Not at this time 06:34:34 I just don't have any idea how monads could apply to a filesystem. 06:34:57 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:35:01 Except in that you could have a "filesystem monad" which would be a state monad with an unusual API. 06:35:04 pikhq: I don't etiher 06:38:53 * zgrep wishes somebody'd explain the generic rules behind what a monad is to zgrep, and give a few examples afterwards... or at least link to place that does so well 06:40:11 * zgrep wonders why the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a page about Category Theory... 06:42:12 A lengthy one, too. 06:52:48 "OpenType is a registered trademark of Microsoft Corporation." 06:52:51 That's just /wrong/ 07:02:37 Is this understanding of how font formats work correct?: 07:02:45 The font format defines the shape of a glyph 07:03:01 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:03:26 When a machine requests to render it, in a given size, the format evaluator converts the relevant glyphs to bitmap images of that size and passes them back to the machine 07:03:30 s/machine/program/ 07:03:47 Then the program renders them in that size 07:03:54 The glyphs, that is 07:11:32 I think more often the text renderer is part of a graphics library that writes the glyph bitmaps onto the output bitmap 07:14:48 http://carnage-melon.tom7.org/embed/dmca.html makes me happy 07:14:50 sometimes it'll return the outlines as vector paths to the program, allowing it to resize and otherwise transform the shapes, or use them as clipping paths or extrude them into 3d 07:14:52 deltab: Ah 07:16:06 the glyph bitmaps get cached because it's much faster to copy a block of pixels than to render vector shapes 07:18:32 for vector output devices such as plotters, of course, the outlines stay as vectors 07:22:38 -!- nisstyre has quit (Changing host). 07:22:39 -!- nisstyre has joined. 07:23:14 also, the text renderer can be used to get just the positions and sizes ('metrics') without any visual data; that's useful for the program to do layout (line splitting, etc.), mapping mouse click locations to characters, drawing selection boxes, etc. 07:26:22 hppavilion[1]: What you described is probably accurate for some older font renderers. 07:26:32 pikhq: Ah 07:27:06 But a simplistic model like that doesn't work quite right with the more complicated features that the OpenType format provides, such as ligatures and variant selection... 07:27:30 (which are necessary for high quality typesetting of most languages, and vital for *legible* rendering of some languages.) 07:28:27 pikhq: Variant Selection? 07:29:29 pikhq: How DO font formats usually work? 07:29:32 Some glyphs can have variants depending on context, or metadata. 07:30:10 pikhq: Ah 07:30:24 pikhq: I do want to support that, but I now realize that the return-the-bitmap model won't work 07:31:05 e.g. Arabic letters join to each other, owth differing shapes when they're initial, medial, final or isolated 07:31:08 The better solution, which is also a lot easier for end users to use, is to have the font renderer render *strings* into a bitmap image. 07:31:36 pikhq: Ah, that works. 07:31:40 pikhq: Is there a "but"? 07:32:24 -!- ineiros has joined. 07:32:33 Not that I know of. Um, if you support antialiasing use an alpha channel and require end users to composite instead of rendering without an alpha channel? 07:32:49 pikhq: OK? 07:33:16 pikhq: I will have to figure out how to return bitmap images AND AGIF 07:33:34 Why GIF? 07:34:30 pikhq: AGIF 07:34:33 pikhq: Not GIF 07:34:57 pikhq: Because animated emoji with simplistic scripting make me cry tears of joy. 07:35:52 Where AGIF is GIF with the almost universally supported animation extension? 07:36:29 pikhq: No, AGIF is Advanced GIF 07:37:07 Is there anything about it that's better than PNG? (well, APNG or MNG or some such) 07:37:15 (I would hope so, but hey. :)) 07:37:55 pikhq: It's like GIF with simplistic scripting (e.g. googley eyes that follow the mouse). Horribly inefficient on slower processors, but fucking amazing when it's fast enough. 07:38:20 Ah. Neat. 07:38:23 I feel a like it's a /bit/ outside of the image domain, but oh well. 07:38:25 Just a bit. 07:38:35 Probably. 07:38:53 'AGIF' is likely to be interpreted as 'animated GIF' 07:38:59 pikhq: I imagine it'll be the kind of thing that you could technically write a full-scale game in but that you never would because that's awefome 07:39:01 Though probably easy *enough* to get working on the web with some clever Javascript. 07:39:03 *aweful 07:39:06 *awful 07:39:19 pikhq: Oooh, right 07:39:19 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 07:39:37 Particularly if you manage to make it an actual extension of GIF. 07:39:48 pikhq: I probably won't 07:39:59 Then why call it GIF? :P 07:40:20 pikhq: The idea, though, is a font format that also supports vector images in the AGIF format (which builds on BVIF (Binary Vector Image Format)) 07:40:25 pikhq: Well, it's a coincidence 07:40:43 AGIF is actually, officially, Advanced Giraffical Interchange Format 07:40:54 Because why the hell not 07:50:16 -!- bb010g has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:50:51 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:51:34 -!- ineiros has joined. 07:58:47 -!- bb010g has joined. 08:03:32 -!- tromp has joined. 08:08:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:49:39 I just realized that I've never seen a format for encoding charts 08:49:47 As in, arbitrary graphs 08:51:34 -!- yorick__ has joined. 08:51:34 -!- yorick__ has quit (Changing host). 08:51:34 -!- yorick__ has joined. 08:51:37 -!- FreeFull_ has joined. 08:55:33 -!- sewilton_ has joined. 08:56:43 -!- earendel has quit (*.net *.split). 08:56:45 -!- FreeFull has quit (*.net *.split). 08:56:45 -!- idris-bot has quit (*.net *.split). 08:56:45 -!- yorick has quit (*.net *.split). 08:56:45 -!- sewilton has quit (*.net *.split). 08:56:45 -!- Nithogg has quit (*.net *.split). 08:56:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (*.net *.split). 08:59:45 -!- sewilton_ has changed nick to sewilton. 09:03:13 -!- Nithogg has joined. 09:03:18 -!- augur_ has joined. 09:06:47 -!- atehwa_ has joined. 09:07:50 -!- Warrigal has joined. 09:08:54 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 09:09:08 -!- jix_ has joined. 09:12:02 -!- FreeFull_ has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:02 -!- yorick__ has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:05 -!- me4 has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:05 -!- copumpkin has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:09 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:13 -!- ski has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:13 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:13 -!- trn has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:13 -!- tswett has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:16 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:16 -!- catern has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:16 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:16 -!- nitrix has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:16 -!- paul2520 has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:16 -!- singingboyo has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:16 -!- newsham has quit (*.net *.split). 09:13:17 -!- ski has joined. 09:15:19 -!- catern has joined. 09:16:17 -!- sewilton has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:16:22 -!- nitrix- has joined. 09:18:19 -!- Deewiant has joined. 09:18:23 -!- paul2520 has joined. 09:18:39 -!- paul2520 has quit (Changing host). 09:18:39 -!- paul2520 has joined. 09:22:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!). 09:25:32 -!- sewilton has joined. 09:26:36 -!- trn has joined. 09:41:40 -!- ocharles_ has quit (Quit: Updating details, brb). 09:41:55 -!- Reece` has joined. 09:42:45 -!- ocharles_ has joined. 09:45:41 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:03:54 -!- yorick has joined. 10:05:30 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:05:31 -!- newsham has joined. 10:05:31 -!- singingboyo has joined. 10:15:11 -!- gamemanj has joined. 10:51:34 -!- FreeFull has joined. 11:01:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:04:39 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:04:51 -!- tromp has joined. 11:09:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:22:36 -!- Froox has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 11:39:00 -!- Frooxius has joined. 11:44:47 -!- mroman has joined. 11:45:05 http://codepad.org/lwL6oCq0 <- anybody an idea how I can translate that to Haskell 11:45:07 I'm stuck 12:17:51 -!- fizzie has joined. 12:17:51 [[("a",1),("b",3),("c",4)],[("a",1),("b",3),("c",5)],[("a",1),("b",3),("c",6... 12:19:23 :t uncurry (map . (,)) 12:19:24 (a1, [a]) -> [(a1, a)] 12:25:23 -!- rdococ has joined. 12:26:21 this can be done in Python as well, of course: import itertools \ def f(xss): \ list(itertools.product(*[[(a,x) for x in xs] for (a,xs) in xss])) 12:27:50 (and the list() is a pessimation if you only want to iterate over the result) 12:27:59 pessimization 12:42:27 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:55:39 -!- p34k has joined. 13:05:31 Given a biinfinite tape of endless 0s, write a TM that will 1ify it 13:23:15 `? tomato 13:23:22 `? tomato sauce 13:23:59 tomato sauce? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:23:59 tomato? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:29:31 -!- boily has joined. 13:36:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:48:28 I had forgotten just how inscrutable the KOHCTRYKTOP solutions look http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/k8.png 13:54:20 That's impressively inscrutable 13:56:38 (featuring a transistor delay based osciallator and a T flip-flop) 14:03:57 Something I find fun from time to time is to write intentionally bad fizz buzz programs; a friend of mine has a github repository collecting them 14:04:07 Here is my latest (in Rust): https://github.com/Taneb/BadBuzz/blob/master/Rust/Taneb.rs 14:08:37 `? loudly 14:08:45 Did you mean: loudly 14:09:35 how the fungot am I supposed to LaTeX that one... 14:09:35 boily: calamari's array implementation does not allow you to reason about. 14:09:46 fungot: no, I do not reason about calamari hth 14:09:47 boily: and it is orthogonal to the interpretation technique. system interrupts, on the other hand, if you express a procedure literal with the lambda 14:10:22 Taneb: Tanelle. that is bad, and you should feel great. 14:15:24 -!- iconmaster has joined. 14:36:12 oh it blinks... what fun... 14:38:37 boily: how about something like {\fboxsep0pt\colorbox{green}{\textcolor{red}{l}}\colorbox{red}{\textcolor{green}{o}}\colorbox{green}{\textcolor{green}{u}}\colorbox{red}{\textcolor{red}d}\colorbox{green}{\textcolor{red}l}\colorbox{red}{\textcolor{green}y}}} 14:39:24 I was just going to suggest colorbox. 14:40:10 Though there's a \hl command in \usepackage{soul} that could also work. (You'd need a lot of \hl{x}\sethlcolor{a}\hl{y}\sethlcolor{b}... but still. 14:40:32 (not sure whether the green on green/red on red works for imitating blinking) 14:42:32 oh and maybe sprinkle some \strut in there... 14:42:52 My colleagues had recorded me one of those audio greeting cards, but so that it has 15 different greetings all mixed together. 14:43:15 \newcommand{\colorfulletter}[3]{{\fboxsep0pt\colorbox{#1}{\textcolor{#2}{\strut#3}}} 14:43:27 Taneb: abusing destructors? I've done that once, in a somewhat bad obfu at http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=330784 14:44:09 * int-e isn't testing this btw 14:44:21 no wait, that one doesn't abuse destructors 14:46:15 -!- cnydraz has changed nick to hydraz. 14:46:37 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:51:12 mumble. "Encoding file `t5enc.def' not found." 14:52:23 texlive-lang-other. thanks, debian. 14:52:41 int-e: are you... building the wisdom PDF? 14:52:50 maybe? 14:53:03 * boily has a widening grin 14:53:06 oooooh :D 15:04:10 doesn't really work... 15:06:13 which part doesn't work? 15:06:24 boily: anyway, try this: http://sprunge.us/IEGc 15:06:36 -!- tromp has joined. 15:06:39 the vietnamese doesn't work 15:08:31 strange... it works perfectly well here. 15:08:39 missing package? bad moon alignment? 15:08:40 (apparently the vietnam.ldf file is gone) 15:08:57 ??? 15:11:07 I have it here, it belongs to texlive-lang-other. reinstall the package? 15:11:18 or renamed, hmm. /usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/babel-vietnamese/vietnamese.ldf 15:11:27 texlive-lang-other: /usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/babel-vietnamese/vietnam.ldf 15:11:44 I'm on debian unstable (stretch) 15:13:27 ubuntu 15.10. 15:15:10 anyway... not going to solve this today... it's also missing the -cjk stuff and I'm not in the mood to download 100 MB right now. 15:15:58 tried you loudly thing. it's loud. 15:18:15 Oh, fun LaTeX thing: we've got a semi-official university beamer template thing, and when it's used with pdflatex from the right TeX distribution (including the one I have), it manages to make PDF files that Adobe Reader doesn't open. Just prints a cryptic error. 15:19:23 Other tools (evince, something called "PDF-xChange" or something like that that they fortunately had on the lecture hall Windows box) think the files are just fine. 15:20:13 int-e: pushed! 15:20:47 Except when I told evince to print them two slides per page, most (but not all) 'i' and 'l' letters disappeared. But for slides per page was again fine. 15:20:56 I hate Adobe Reader's errors. "Something went wrong somewhere" "Yes, I can see that. What went wrong?" "..." 15:20:58 Four. 15:21:55 Yeah, it was something like that. Except the error message box repeated six times before it gave up. 15:25:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:27:05 at our office we have an obscure tool to explode PDFs and analyse their contents. no documentation, cryptic dictionary keys, weird numbers, but otherwise tremendously useful for debugging. 15:27:26 can't remember how it's called, and if it's still available on the interwebs. 15:30:12 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:33:15 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:48:11 -!- gremlins has joined. 15:50:02 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:58:01 -!- Reece` has joined. 15:58:47 -!- gremlins has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:09:30 stop that! 16:11:58 b_jellonas. stop whom? what? why? 16:12:13 fungot: help? 16:12:13 int-e: especially the part about screen names made me think... thats a perfect explanation. 16:12:26 wow, perfectly coherent 16:21:17 -!- rdococ_ has joined. 16:23:09 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:24:01 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:27:38 -!- boily_ has joined. 16:29:13 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:29:46 the Gregorlogs are dead, and I am besides myself. 16:29:58 b_jonas: did the what that had to be stopped stopped? 16:30:46 -!- boily has quit (*.net *.split). 16:30:46 -!- rdococ has quit (*.net *.split). 16:31:00 -!- boily_ has changed nick to boily. 16:31:34 -!- rdococ_ has changed nick to rdococ. 16:32:12 boily: yes. it was some neighbor making noises. the nerve they have, hammering something when I'm home. 16:36:27 -!- nortti has joined. 16:43:20 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:52:32 -!- mroman has quit (Quit: Page closed). 17:00:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:03:39 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SIMPLIFIED CHICKEN). 17:16:31 -!- Kaynato has joined. 17:21:26 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:22:35 > let f = sequence . map (uncurry (map . (,))) in f [("a",[1,2]),("b",[3]),("c",[4,5,6])] 17:22:52 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:23:35 > let f = sequence . map sequence in f [("a",[1,2]),("b",[3]),("c",[4,5,6])] 17:23:36 [[("a",1),("b",3),("c",4)],[("a",1),("b",3),("c",5)],[("a",1),("b",3),("c",6... 17:23:50 *MWAHAHAHA* 17:24:02 :t sequence 17:24:03 (Monad m, Traversable t) => t (m a) -> m (t a) 17:24:28 eww. okay. 17:24:34 > let f = traverse sequence in f [("a",[1,2]),("b",[3]),("c",[4,5,6])] 17:24:36 [[("a",1),("b",3),("c",4)],[("a",1),("b",3),("c",5)],[("a",1),("b",3),("c",6... 17:25:13 brilliant, of course, but also appalling. 17:25:37 -!- fungot has joined. 17:25:48 That thing keeps dropping like a fly. 17:26:07 I guess that doesn't really work, since a single fly probably just drops once. 17:30:45 that doesn't match my experience 17:35:22 `? loudly 17:35:45 Did you mean: loudly 17:35:53 > traverse sequence (1,["12","34"]) 17:35:54 [(1,"13"),(1,"14"),(1,"23"),(1,"24")] 17:36:26 (not sure whether the green on green/red on red works for imitating blinking) <-- that's what irssi does, anyway 17:36:53 oerjan: I've seen it blink... I was talking about the LaTeX sinppet. 17:37:13 or snippet, to use the conventional spelling 17:37:27 ok, might be putty. 17:38:32 I see that thing as just red-on-green/green-on-red, with no blinking. 17:39:13 It blinked in my local xterm (without screen or other intermediates) 17:50:41 yay 17:50:55 -!- Reece` has joined. 17:51:14 -!- iconmaster_ has joined. 17:51:35 -!- tromp__ has joined. 17:52:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 18:00:47 -!- tromp has quit (*.net *.split). 18:00:47 -!- iconmaster has quit (*.net *.split). 18:01:59 -!- boily has joined. 18:02:01 `wisdom middle worse 18:02:15 middle worse/Mïðal VVőrszü vvoràði nyëlv spöket af magyar inva̋ðereknek leszármazottai Herefördshirben äppröxima̋tely 1250. 18:02:33 -!- boily has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Saguenay (not Chicoutimi). 18:10:59 -!- j-bot has joined. 18:11:01 `words --finnish 20 18:11:20 pelallansa uinamme ampansoittamme nuorillenne sillensa käyneimmilta vääni kylvyllyttömimilla vetoillani konaistisimpani rajunnistäsi juhlaavillensa etenhuavistintavikalle noutariaksi pellisuudeksi suukutsutui hurjoilla tunttisisi opistoamaalenne kompien 18:20:05 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:20:28 -!- Reece` has joined. 18:23:58 fizziello. any real words in there? 18:24:10 -!- earendel has joined. 18:26:32 ``` words --finnish -o -5 50 18:26:34 poikkealla omaaverit haisimaannoista kuulettisimpina helisemmaltaava lautumassa sinko kaudottamaalisesi pihaa ikäisemastavilläne laperäisi laajussani yksingokseni yhdelttavilta noudeksi kahvissäni ryhmiseli kärsioikkentä valtamissämme isyytymällä hiipeilla ajalta vaksessani jakaani oivoiteikiä 18:26:35 ``` words --finnish -o 5 20 18:26:37 lyhyeliturruttelemme kourikalisempänäniputkiksentuviksen paanisemmetoimiini oulumallesittelustuvin puhkumassansaarnaan pullaamallenne tyvääniloituaksellista heneväsitoillänsä terältänne lohinhahmaansaaniikaisimmastantauksen hyökallemiamme kroukseniläisellisemmista kuohuvenemaansarjallanne vallastaantamallemme hersinuuttaessämme avillesi 18:26:56 ``` words --hungarian 30 18:26:57 Unknown option: hungarian 18:27:49 ``` words --magyar 18:27:51 Unknown option: magyar 18:27:55 :( 18:30:55 ``` words --portugese 18:30:58 Unknown option: portugese 18:31:02 ``` words --portugoose 18:31:03 Unknown option: portugoose 18:31:09 ``` words --british 18:31:10 Unknown option: british 18:31:13 ``` words --american 18:31:14 Unknown option: american 18:31:17 ``` words --german 18:31:25 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:31:25 vegend 18:32:23 `le/rn portugoose/Peça ganso assado com natas. 18:32:27 Learned «portugoose» 18:32:43 ``` words --french 20 18:32:56 procépri gba pater mos testalisbeck scanifleu carnarc corre porta aper hcrtnctiore ixxiiiique convene appetjent iderance excombunde agks setzvoueme brundale vera 18:33:48 ``` words --french -o -5 40 18:33:51 ``` words --french -o 5 30 18:34:01 présquin lnspoleal rabrist muni osna loriaire repretripali tonagerha stepokiection prœces anneur pci abîmes sava éteria gren crusth demont feluze bûc mum lcl raur traciôn eométrill 18:34:10 deonsnfftschen haversees ectrod bécismeslan aursquesseudo panailliert tiverleyssompie slablespongences stihârâtelgemenii guisiorigosl gerticiousessainteinte vesterristegourge achenteraient calcontivestiludc bononligerbus périctivimumclxxx reciaienseraine prixâtesquivo yivelgescechnigrampage sylvisdenô accincrees saitporalions embergottoriusci 18:34:50 lnspoleal? you don't start words with lnsp in french. that's for Russian only. 18:35:13 and the h in tonagerha looks suspicious 18:35:23 as well as the one in crusth 18:35:44 wait, deonsnfftschen? what's this, german? 18:35:53 haversees? is that like hovercraft eels? 18:36:13 aursquesseudo? that's more like spanish or something 18:36:26 but some of those are quite believable 18:36:52 péritivimum ... ok, but clxxx? 18:37:09 ``` words --french -30 18:37:10 abîmes sounds legit. 18:37:19 Unknown option: 3 \ Unknown option: 0 18:37:27 ``` words --french 30 18:37:36 yémandczeptes auchet partallet tussembos demal lubsta annoth anisca gourro mer dimèrs flagnc pléma tragcr verkdahsoir brieldt gares lavitch demann ciat hgporf prisère prée roles tracharag 18:37:56 what's with all the h in that? 18:38:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:38:34 ``` words --french 40 | perl -e's/\S*h\S*\s?//' 18:38:39 No output. 18:38:51 ``` words --french 40 | perl -pe's/\S*h\S*\s?//g' 18:38:59 avottini grontibus combeburner invenassc fruan trication daigerment tatism fupées altement egri lanissiones écrousculent gion tatinté averin foy cappréciat agcm solai 18:39:00 "gares" is a real world I think 18:39:05 and so is "mer" 18:39:17 ``` words --french 60 | perl -pe's/\S*h\S*\s?//g' 18:39:26 rosia tupure oppagné aliabi morumnas fltas montat fortaskinno desare bouane sou cousso purprétarveio zaam porego parakl zoëne quent mus drnisland allongno willette rebi 18:39:31 `` xxd wisdom/pun 18:39:32 0000000: 5075 6e73 2061 7265 2066 756e 2e20 4173 Puns are fun. As \ 0000010: 6b20 7368 6163 680f 6166 2061 626f 7574 k shach.af about \ 0000020: 2074 6865 6d2e 2042 7574 2062 6577 6172 them. But bewar \ 0000030: 6520 6f66 204d 7570 6872 7920 6164 6469 e of Muphry addi \ 0000040: 6e67 206d 6973 7370 656c 6c69 6e67 732e ng misspellings. \ 00000 18:39:34 écrousculent? that's a nice one 18:39:54 "sou" is real too, isn't it? 18:40:31 `? xkcd 18:40:33 xkcd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:40:38 WHAT. 18:40:41 écrousculent: sounds nice. «ils écrousculent»... «ils s'écroulent en petits éboulis»? 18:41:00 `this 18:41:00 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: this: not found 18:41:09 b_jonas: «sou» is real. it's an alternative to «cent», as in a currency's subdivision. 18:41:20 `mkx bin/this//THIS. IS. #ESOTEEEEERIC! 18:41:24 bin/this 18:41:28 `this 18:41:29 ​/hackenv/bin/this: line 1: THIS.: command not found 18:41:38 `mkx bin/this//echo THIS. IS. #ESOTEEEEERIC! 18:41:42 bin/this 18:41:44 `this 18:41:45 THIS. IS. 18:41:50 Crap 18:42:10 `mkx bin/this//echo THIS. IS. \#ESOTEEEEERIC! 18:42:12 bin/this 18:42:15 `this 18:42:16 THIS. IS. #ESOTEEEEERIC! 18:42:20 There. 18:43:56 -!- picobit has joined. 18:44:01 -!- olsner has joined. 18:46:57 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:47:25 `words --russian 40 18:47:42 ​руцка рукту спиравован кузенца jia капы гожесть фрэдслужиласт лроилизгна наромбом одни папывайтийный иитова плескомылойно чапаившийся велаксимич цародя ушивается трахтиновые передпоср у 18:48:33 "jia"? seriously? 18:48:37 how is that russian? 18:49:01 `words --russian 40 -o -5 18:49:04 `words --russian 20 -o 5 18:49:26 ​кимистразви пукоду делённыхъ переказворосе лома атборд золомбовск выдов мецюйфусэвиа крепол происше возданномъ однейшую цманными прогрудя пионо билосьментрич жидковъ изнаниза гвкингст 18:49:30 ​майтанглинго уральскимикрощи салъйшаяся кваистяхъ сверествами чудсгаетерпеневски прежесть несоцируемонцеллы прериласьев еобожную оппеременьшъ постриевыми разиными порважившись канн 18:54:00 -!- MDude has joined. 18:54:08 -!- gamemanj has joined. 19:02:17 `words --armenian 20 19:02:20 Unknown option: armenian 19:02:54 -!- gremlins2 has joined. 19:03:27 `le/rn_append funpuns/Gur havg bs onq chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz. 19:03:33 Can't open wisdom/funpuns: No such file or directory. \ Learned 'funpuns': Gur havg bs onq chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz. 19:03:42 `rm wisdom/funpuns 19:03:45 No output. 19:03:46 `le/rn_append funpun/Gur havg bs onq chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz. 19:03:50 Learned 'funpun': funpuns fceø fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Gur havg bs onq chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz. 19:04:17 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:05:19 `` sed -i 's/onq/sha/' wisdom/funpun 19:05:25 No output. 19:05:46 boily: Real so far: nuorillenne sinko pihaa ajalta pullaamallenne (<- a bit debatable) terältänne. 19:07:25 shachaf: subtle :P 19:09:04 -!- mroman has joined. 19:09:08 elho 19:09:27 -!- tromp__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:09:32 https://github.com/FMNSSun/Ununoctium/tree/master/spec 19:09:36 my newest project :) 19:10:37 mrelloman! 19:12:57 Approximate translations, respectively: "for your young people", bazooka, a yard (as in, outdoor area adjacent to a house; partitive case), "from a time", something a bit difficult to translate or even parse, and "from your (plural you) edge (in the 'knife edge' sense)". 19:13:31 "nuorillenne" conflagrates "for your young people" in a single word? 19:16:10 -!- relrod has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:18:22 nuori -> youth, young adult. -lle -> allative case, usually "onto " but also "for " if you're giving them something. -nne -> second-person plural possessive suffix, "your". 19:18:49 -!- relrod_ has joined. 19:18:49 -!- relrod_ has quit (Changing host). 19:18:49 -!- relrod_ has joined. 19:19:26 wait what? how can the case ending precede the possessive marker? 19:19:44 Well, "nuori" is also just the adjective "young". But when used like a noun and without any particular context, I think the standard assumed one is a person. 19:19:51 And it just does. 19:21:24 It can't go the other way around, that would sound ridiculous and not right at all. 19:24:17 "pour vos jeunes personnes" just rolls off the tongue hth 19:24:18 A particle like -kin ("also", "too") would go after both of those. (nuorillennekin) 19:24:41 `` xxd wisdom/the meaning of life 19:24:45 Usage: \ xxd [options] [infile [outfile]] \ or \ xxd -r [-s [-]offset] [-c cols] [-ps] [infile [outfile]] \ Options: \ -a toggle autoskip: A single '*' replaces nul-lines. Default off. \ -b binary digit dump (incompatible with -ps,-i,-r). Default hex. \ -c cols format octets per line. Defau 19:24:57 `` xxd wisdom/the\ meaning\ of\ life 19:24:58 0000000: 6563 686f 2031 3031 3831 0a echo 10181. 19:25:08 ...??? 19:26:10 I used the word "kahvinjuojallekin" ("also for a drinker of coffee") as an example of how Finnish is agglutinative in my thesis. 19:27:08 it's also for a drinker of coffee. 19:27:23 `` culprits wisdom/things\ boily\ likes 19:27:27 oerjan oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan 19:27:30 kahvi + -n + juoda + -ja + -lle + -kin. 19:29:41 kahvi: coffee; -n: a?; juoda: drink; -ja: -er; -lle: ???; -kin: also. 19:33:21 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:37:02 boily: coffee + accusative case (essentially makes it an object instead of a subject) + to drink + -er + the same allative we already covered in "nuorillenne", again as "for" + also. 19:37:27 We don't really have an equivalent of the "a", I think. 19:38:29 `? a 19:38:31 A is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters. 19:39:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:41:20 fizzie yeah, in Finland it's called Åå instead because they have double letters 19:42:19 oh, you mean an article? sure 19:43:24 Other things the BBC doesn't understand: happy news. 19:43:41 `culprits wisdom/the\ meaning\ of\ life 19:43:44 No output. 19:43:50 `culprits wisdom/the meaning of life 19:43:53 hppavilion[1] 19:44:19 `? the meaning of life 19:44:20 echo 10181 19:45:01 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 19:45:14 int-e: Weird, I'm sure that used to mean something 19:45:19 `? the meaning of life 19:45:23 echo 10181 19:45:33 `cat wisdom/the meaning of life 19:45:34 echo 10181 19:45:44 the meaning of life, the universe, and everything is 42. 19:45:54 what's this "10181" stuff about? 19:46:03 gamemanj: I think that wisdom/the meaning of life is supposed to echo $RANDOM 19:46:05 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:46:20 gamemanj: But that in creating the script it got set to a static random number, rather than a dynamic one 19:46:43 gamemanj: So every time you request TMoL it would be different 19:47:49 gamemanj: It just so happened to be 42 at the moment that the analysis was performed, and no one thought to try again 19:48:11 ... 19:51:37 gamemanj: True story. 19:52:59 gamemanj: In fact, the answer may not have been 42 at the time; the answer changes on a sub-planck-time scale, and as such they had different results from subcalculations 19:53:35 http://blog.regehr.org/archives/140 is the best clickbait ever 19:54:11 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 19:56:29 `? zork 19:56:30 Zork is like York, except for the first letter. Uaneb invented it. 19:56:44 ↑ should I put Zork under the places chapter, or the tanebventions one? 19:56:46 `? taneb 19:56:47 Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of five genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions) 19:56:48 `? tanebventions 19:56:49 Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, robots, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex. 19:57:43 `? ais523 19:57:46 Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 19:57:56 Taneb it is. 19:58:27 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:59:10 `? oily 19:59:12 oily? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:59:18 `? ackego 19:59:19 ackego? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:59:44 I need to do some more ruminating on my gender identity at some point 19:59:48 But I can procrastinate that 20:00:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:01:14 An ungot is a particularly heavy ingot. 20:01:24 -!- Reece` has joined. 20:01:26 `? stalactite 20:01:27 stalactite? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:01:28 `? stalagmite 20:01:29 stalagmite? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:02:08 -!- gremlins2 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:02:17 `learn A stalactite is an upside-down stalagmite. 20:02:22 Learned 'stalactite': A stalactite is an upside-down stalagmite. 20:02:28 `learn A stalagmite is an upside-down stalctite. 20:02:32 Learned 'stalagmite': A stalagmite is an upside-down stalctite. 20:03:30 How about those stalagtites and stalacmites then? 20:03:48 That would be the backward one. 20:03:59 If you were to grind a stalacmite thoroughly, would you get a dustmite? 20:04:05 `learn A stalagmyte is eight stalagmits 20:04:08 Learned 'stalagmyte': A stalagmyte is eight stalagmits 20:04:24 ♪ DING ♪ round of updates done. the things, places, tanebventions and similar are covered. quotes are not up to date yet. 20:04:26 -!- rdococ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:04:42 there are some painful entries to LaTeXify yet. 20:05:02 boily: updates to what? 20:06:42 b_jonas: wisdom.pdf 20:07:26 -!- centrinia has joined. 20:07:38 `relcome centrinia 20:07:40 ​centrinia: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 20:07:43 centinello 20:08:18 `? centrinia 20:08:22 centrinia? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:09:31 what's the url for that? 20:09:35 `? wisdom.pdf 20:09:37 wisdom.pdf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:09:42 `? pdf 20:09:43 PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format. 20:09:56 -!- tromp has joined. 20:09:59 b_jonas: you can peruse the PDF in the /topic ↑ 20:10:04 ah 20:10:10 also, I believe you have commit access to the repo. 20:10:18 `learn wisdom.pdf is https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf 20:10:20 Learned 'wisdom.pdf': wisdom.pdf is https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf 20:12:52 `? bc 20:12:53 bc? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:13:34 boily: On this Linux computer the PDF does work on Firefox, so I can report an error: The "accounting" entry should not use the less than and greater than signs; it is supposed to be Dirac notation. 20:13:47 `? cyberiad 20:13:49 The Cyberiad is not just a book. It's an M&S book. 20:13:58 zzo38: good point. 20:14:03 `? accounting 20:14:05 = 0 20:14:53 `? paperless 20:14:57 In a paperless world, rock would never lose. 20:15:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:16:12 + % TODO all this other weirdness 20:16:58 Did you fix it yet? 20:17:09 ``` sed -i 's//⟩/g' wisdom/accounting && echo wisdom/accounting 20:17:13 wisdom/accounting 20:17:20 `? accounting 20:17:23 ​⟨BAL|FSV⟩ = 0 20:18:02 I mean on the wisdom.pdf not on HackEgo 20:18:17 sure but 20:18:19 why not fix it here 20:18:34 `? csv 20:18:36 CSV猫stands猫for猫Cat猫Separated猫Values 20:19:17 boily, would it be possible to make the pdf imitate the behaviour of `? Ngevd rather than quoting the actual file? 20:19:21 `? Ngevd 20:19:22 zX*ÔXQ}üüú_tw䯺ïžvé.ÿežÀî·Â 20:19:48 zzo38: I got slightly distracted by an asian acappela group doing a cover of "I'm a scatman! skee-da-dee-da-bop-bop ♪" 20:19:49 -!- Frooxius has joined. 20:19:59 Taneb: eeeeeeeeeeeeeh... 20:20:05 `? Ngevd 20:20:06 ​™‚wý«¿ðãé'§ÕŸ´Ổ¶]Ox–dƒºº½Â︕úËa,‚íº™é}ePÊâ‹:€’ÈéМ•êaéñh¶ËC/oZ…]FϨ‡óT°ÁnYU„€š¢RYC¾â%öu Š–zÿ.èøn•ˆWaøw^žþ/çÓ²×yI² «~.—åyÇêMPDÙÀ%4ûß.É%zúà -ÉDúÁÌ.Ð~ó­ß×6:¶´pyv4—ó Äƒ–Fú6WaÁΞ—?€Éå0±Ž'h°(ü'DÅ,öÍ-u‡ùºÏ)‹”»Ë²Ÿõp. \ É;BF'æ×ô_wŠAm«q‚ê^!§—§©r8ùkŸGlrí5¬.Ô»HÇVFvT1™Ðɋw‚ã½!ž´ô.ÿ+¤¦å·ø‹|ÎÞ(³B(ÆxQYÁ’Z¨Á$Å»ï 20:20:15 probably? LaTeX can do all kind of weird stuff already. 20:20:43 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:21:25 b_jonas: If that is what you want to do it is fine but it is not really broken how I had it before since this is the IRC and not the typesetting paper. 20:21:47 boily: Make up a font consisting of random mess with METAFONT and then use that font for that entry. 20:22:05 (There is command in METAFONT to make up random numbers) 20:22:16 lalala patches welcome lalala 20:23:05 `culprits wisdom/schaf 20:23:11 int-e 20:23:19 oops. 20:24:30 -!- idris-bot has joined. 20:25:23 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:26:41 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:27:54 `? pony 20:27:55 `? ponies 20:28:07 pony? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:28:08 ponies? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:29:43 `slashlearn Ravnica: City of Guilds/Ravnica: City of Guilds is a city of guilds. “City of Guilds” is part of its name. The Wizards of the Coast Marketing Department: We Sell Anything thought players might not notice it was a City of Guilds unless they put the tagline into the name. 20:29:46 Learned «ravnica: city of guilds» 20:29:50 `slashlearn Ravnica/Ravnica: City of Guilds is a city of guilds. “City of Guilds” is part of its name. The Wizards of the Coast Marketing Department: We Sell Anything thought players might not notice it was a City of Guilds unless they put the tagline into the name. 20:29:53 Learned «ravnica» 20:30:09 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:30:45 -!- mtve has joined. 20:30:49 `? cyberiad 20:30:52 The Cyberiad is not just a book. It's an M&S book. 20:30:53 what does “M&S” mean? 20:32:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 20:32:09 `? diet 20:32:13 People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet. 20:32:25 `? M&S 20:32:26 M&S? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:33:19 -!- relrod_ has quit (*.net *.split). 20:33:29 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 20:33:43 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SPECIALIST CHICKEN). 20:33:58 -!- relrod_ has joined. 20:34:01 -!- relrod_ has quit (Changing host). 20:34:01 -!- relrod_ has joined. 20:34:34 `? fear 20:34:35 fear? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:34:40 `? earendil 20:34:45 earendil? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:35:14 `? Wealhtheow 20:35:17 Wealhtheow? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:36:08 Phantom_Hoover: what does M&S mean? 20:36:21 marks and spencers? 20:36:52 they ran an ad campaign where the catchphrase was "it's not just a , it's an m&s " 20:37:04 oh. 20:37:17 thanks, though I was hoping for something... deeper. 20:37:18 :) 20:37:50 `learn Wealhtheow is the barkeep in the tavern where the adventuring group of Beowulf meet at the start of the story. 20:37:54 Learned 'wealhtheow': Wealhtheow is the barkeep in the tavern where the adventuring group of Beowulf meet at the start of the story. 20:38:15 -!- centrinia has joined. 20:38:41 `learn Wealhtheow is the barkeep in the tavern where the adventuring party of Beowulf meet at the start of the story. 20:38:44 Relearned 'wealhtheow': Wealhtheow is the barkeep in the tavern where the adventuring party of Beowulf meet at the start of the story. 20:40:40 -!- greenlock has joined. 20:42:17 `learn Stibia is a spice that grows in your leg. 20:42:21 Learned 'stibia': Stibia is a spice that grows in your leg. 20:42:56 I'm looking at that pdf and I recognize a lot of entries I've added. 20:43:09 `? plaid 20:43:12 plaid? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:44:11 `? rose 20:44:12 rose? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:45:56 `? name 20:45:57 -!- MDude has joined. 20:45:57 name? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:46:44 Would I break the internet if I ran '`?' ? 20:47:20 greenlock: there's only one way to find out 20:47:38 `? internet 20:47:40 `? inherent 20:47:44 inherent? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:47:44 The internet is for everything. However many thing can done even without internet too, often better without use of internet, but internet is good too. 20:48:01 `? greenlock 20:48:02 `? salt 20:48:02 greenlock? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:48:04 salt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:48:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:48:10 `? green 20:48:11 green? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:48:27 `? haskell 20:48:28 Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell' 20:48:47 `? h 20:48:48 `? haskell 20:48:48 h? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:48:50 Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell' 20:49:13 `? Bubbles 20:49:13 `? pico 20:49:14 Bubbles? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:49:15 pico? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:49:45 `? thyme 20:49:47 Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano. 20:50:07 `? ice 20:50:09 ice? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:50:13 `? wisdom 20:50:16 wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø? 20:50:36 `? soviet russia 20:50:37 ​¯\(°​_o)/¯ soviet russia? 20:50:58 `? HackEgo 20:50:59 HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in Mexico! 20:51:01 `slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. 20:51:04 Relearned «soviet russia» 20:51:41 `? bagel 20:51:42 bagel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:51:46 `? berliner 20:51:47 berliner? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:52:08 `help 20:52:08 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 20:52:13 `? soviet russia 20:52:15 In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. 20:52:26 int-e: that one is bad, feel free to substitute it with something better 20:52:37 b_jonas: wondering about the "Relearned" 20:52:47 `? tvtropes 20:52:48 We'll write about TVTropes here, we just have to finish these tabs first. 20:52:59 int-e: ask the version control about it 20:53:31 b_jonas: I did. Still wondering 20:53:33 ``` hg log -p wisdom/soviet\ russia 20:53:39 changeset: 7412:b98aae2264e3 \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Sun Apr 17 19:51:03 2016 +0000 \ summary: slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. \ \ diff -r 6bb2c6e93fa8 -r b98aae2264e3 wisdom/soviet russia \ --- a/wisdom/soviet russiaSun Apr 17 19:42:20 2016 +0000 \ +++ b/wis 20:54:04 ``` hg log -p wisdom/soviet\ russia | tail -n +7 20:54:11 diff -r 6bb2c6e93fa8 -r b98aae2264e3 wisdom/soviet russia \ --- a/wisdom/soviet russiaSun Apr 17 19:42:20 2016 +0000 \ +++ b/wisdom/soviet russiaSun Apr 17 19:51:03 2016 +0000 \ @@ -1,1 +1,1 @@ \ -¯\(°​_o)/¯ soviet russia? \ +In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. \ \ changeset: 7388:2853bce44bba \ user: HackBot \ date: 20:54:13 oh, subtle. 20:54:29 b_jonas: note how the the ¯\(°​_o)/¯ came first 20:54:45 `revert wisdom/soviet russia 20:54:45 hg: parse error at 14: invalid token 20:54:46 int-e: yeah 20:54:57 `? soviet russia 20:54:58 In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. 20:55:01 huh 20:55:08 `revert 20:55:11 rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done. 20:55:19 `? soviet russia 20:55:20 ​¯\(°​_o)/¯ soviet russia? 20:55:49 `? class 20:55:51 class? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:58:30 `? marx 20:58:31 marx? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:59:02 `? haskell 20:59:03 Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell' 20:59:32 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:04:45 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:06:57 Is page 182 supposed to be blank? 21:07:10 there should be something about classes and marx there 21:07:13 `? classes 21:07:14 classes? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:07:15 `? glasses 21:07:17 glasses? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:07:47 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:08:57 `? pike 21:08:59 Pike is an interpreted language that got sort of forgotten among the four big mainstream p-languages (perl, python, ruby, php). 21:09:02 `? python 21:09:03 `? perl 21:09:04 python = ProgrammingLanguage(attrs=[plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE'], plattrs['INTERPRETED'], *plparadigms['IMPERATIVE', 'FUNCTIONAL']]) 21:09:05 Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language 21:09:05 `? php 21:09:06 php is the PigeonHole Principle 21:09:07 `? puby 21:09:08 puby? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:09:09 `? ruby 21:09:10 Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that Eventually decided to support non-ascii characters. 21:09:40 uh, from japan, eventually decided to support non-ascii characters? that's a little confusing... 21:09:46 -!- carado has joined. 21:09:50 why did I capitalize Eventually? 21:10:00 b_jonas: Drama. 21:10:05 `learn Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that eventually decided to support non-ascii characters. 21:10:10 Relearned 'ruby': Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that eventually decided to support non-ascii characters. 21:10:21 `?kitty 21:10:21 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?kitty: not found 21:10:24 `? kitty 21:10:26 kitty? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:10:52 so apparently cats don't exist 21:11:06 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:11:06 `? ceiling cat 21:11:08 ceiling cat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:11:09 `? basement cat 21:11:10 basement cat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:11:27 `? cat 21:11:28 Cats are cool, but should be illegal. 21:11:31 O.O 21:11:49 Rekt 21:11:53 -!- greenlock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:12:51 `before 21:13:09 wisdom/ruby//Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that Eventually decided to support non-ascii characters. 21:13:51 `? lie group 21:13:52 lie group? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:14:18 `? lie bracket 21:14:21 Politicians try to stay within the lie bracket: Not so many lies that voters cannot stand it, but not so few that they think you have nothing to give them. 21:14:59 `? Gxxyuxihuvxi 21:15:00 Gxxyuxihuvxi? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:15:08 `? lion 21:15:10 Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world. They get eaten by poets in stone dens. 21:15:14 I like that one 21:15:18 `? lie algebra 21:15:19 A Lie algebra is what you get if you take the region infinitesimally close to the identity of a Lie group and blow it up to normal size. 21:15:20 ^ that one too 21:16:09 `? norm 21:16:10 norm? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:16:17 hmm, there's no entry for "truth" 21:16:48 actually there's no entry for a lot of things 21:17:15 `learn norm is the name of the functions in the Eigen and opencv libraries to compute the 2-norm of a vector, and the name of the function in C++ to compute the squared 2-norm of a complex number 21:17:23 Learned 'norm': norm is the name of the functions in the Eigen and opencv libraries to compute the 2-norm of a vector, and the name of the function in C++ to compute the squared 2-norm of a complex number 21:17:24 nah, that's too factual 21:17:32 `learn norm is the most confusingly named function in C++ 21:17:34 Relearned 'norm': norm is the most confusingly named function in C++ 21:18:27 `? magnus 21:18:31 magnus? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:18:53 `? Magnus is the ghost the Trunchbull killed. 21:18:54 Magnus is the ghost the Trunchbull killed.? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:18:57 `learn Magnus is the ghost the Trunchbull killed. 21:19:01 Learned 'magnu': Magnus is the ghost the Trunchbull killed. 21:19:20 it assumed "magnus" was a plural? 21:19:32 gamemanj: yes, but it's fine, because 21:19:33 `? magnus 21:19:35 still works 21:19:36 Magnus is the ghost the Trunchbull killed. 21:19:38 `? dahl 21:19:40 Royal Dahl is the king of Norway. 21:19:42 `? kinder 21:19:43 kinder? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:19:46 `? nutella 21:19:47 nutella? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:20:12 "Royal Dahl"??? 21:20:23 `? kinder surprise 21:20:23 kinder surprise? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:20:33 `? computer 21:20:35 Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the characters '1' and '0'. 21:21:17 ... 21:21:36 that doesn't really say much of the language 21:21:45 `slashlearn Kinder Surprise/Kinder Surprise is an addictive drug marketed for children so dangerous it's banned at the federal level. 21:21:49 Learned «kinder surprise» 21:22:06 (Um, what?) 21:22:49 I still don't understand Mïdal VVőrszü entry. What's it trying to say? 21:24:10 `? Trantor 21:24:11 Trantor? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:24:30 `? midal 21:24:34 midal? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:24:45 `? Midal VVorszu 21:24:46 Midal VVorszu? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:25:03 `? Mïdal VVőrszü 21:25:04 Mïdal VVőrszü? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:25:05 gamemanj: it has some funny character instead of d 21:25:37 `cat "wisdom/Mï*al VVőrszü" 21:25:38 cat: "wisdom/Mï*al VVőrszü": No such file or directory 21:25:43 `cat "wisdom/Mï*al*" 21:25:46 cat: "wisdom/Mï*al*": No such file or directory 21:26:00 `cat "wisdom/Mi*al*" 21:26:00 cat: "wisdom/Mi*al*": No such file or directory 21:26:02 ... 21:26:07 `cat "wisdom/mi*al*" 21:26:08 cat: "wisdom/mi*al*": No such file or directory 21:26:11 * gamemanj sighs 21:26:48 Oh, and trying to do an ls wisdom gives me... a bunch of nonsense. 21:28:24 `learn Trantor is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it. 21:28:26 Learned 'trantor': Trantor is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it. 21:28:34 `learn Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it. 21:28:36 Learned 'coruscant': Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it. 21:28:52 `slashlearn Coruscant/Trantor is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it. 21:28:54 Relearned «coruscant» 21:28:56 `slashlearn Trantor/Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it. 21:28:59 Relearned «trantor» 21:29:56 `? moon 21:29:58 The Moon is an unprovable celestial object that is not very retroreflectorey. 21:30:05 isn't that supposed to be s/torey/tory/? 21:30:19 `spell retroreflectorey 21:30:19 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: spell: not found 21:30:20 who knows, could be intentional 21:30:26 `? retrorocket 21:30:27 retrorocket? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:31:33 `? organic 21:31:34 organic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:32:02 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:32:19 `? yes 21:32:20 yes? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:32:22 `? yay 21:32:23 yay? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:32:36 `? mu 21:32:37 mu? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:32:38 `? ni 21:32:39 ni? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:32:57 `? o 21:32:59 o? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:33:41 `? apple 21:33:42 apple? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:34:49 `? orange 21:34:50 orange? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:35:18 so long and yet it still doesn't have a complete catalogue of the world yet 21:36:47 That would be too difficult, although still we could add more files 21:37:57 `learn o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, essentially, and they're out to stop him and conquer their personal problems at the same time. Hopefu 21:37:59 Learned 'o': o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conque 21:38:04 `? o 21:38:06 o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, 21:38:15 I have an idea... set up a search engine within HackEgo to search Gopher servers for the key terms. (Why not the full web? HTML is difficult! And used way too much. And I'm deliberately appealing to zzo38.) 21:39:29 `? ring 21:39:32 Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them. 21:40:55 `? tom 21:40:56 tom? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:41:08 `? quiz 21:41:10 quiz? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:41:45 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett. 21:41:56 `? russell's teapot 21:41:58 Russell's Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. / If you see it / Let us know / If you don't / What does that show? 21:42:35 `? schiffffahrt 21:42:36 schiffffahrt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:42:39 `? schifffahrt 21:42:40 schifffahrt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:42:43 `? schiffahrt 21:42:44 schiffahrt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:42:46 `? schifahrt 21:42:47 schifahrt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:42:52 `? schiffart 21:42:53 schiffart? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:42:55 `? schifffart 21:42:56 schifffart? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:43:00 `? schiahrt 21:43:01 schiahrt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:43:03 `? schiart 21:43:04 schiart? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:44:18 `? cactus 21:44:20 cactus? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:44:46 `? phthisis 21:44:47 phthisis? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:45:53 '? esoteric 21:46:01 Ah, whoops. 21:46:58 `? silent 21:47:00 silent? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:48:09 `? bdellium 21:48:11 bdellium? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:48:11 `? chthonic 21:48:13 Chthonic lithping can be vethy dithturbing to lithten to. 21:48:24 `? mnemonic 21:48:25 mnemonic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:48:27 `? pneumatic 21:48:28 pneumatic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:48:29 `? gnu 21:48:30 gnu? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:48:42 `? slough 21:48:43 slough? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:49:32 `learn slough /slaʊ/ or /sluː/ means a marsh; slough /slʌf/ means skin thrown off a reptile 21:49:35 Learned 'slough': slough /slaʊ/ or /sluː/ means a marsh; slough /slʌf/ means skin thrown off a reptile 21:53:44 `? spice 21:53:46 `? sugar 21:53:46 spice? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:53:47 sugar? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:55:04 `? spice girls 21:55:05 spice girls? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:55:40 `? xkcq 21:55:41 ​"xkcq" is worth 8 more points than "xkcd" in Scrabble, or a whopping 30 more if both are played optimally on a triple word score. Nyahhh. 21:55:41 `? xkcd 21:55:42 xkcd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:57:04 b_jonas: I did that earlier. It was shocking. 21:57:51 `learn spice girls/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice. 21:57:54 Learned 'spice': spice girls/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice. 21:58:34 b_jonas: What about THE CREATURE THAT FEASTS ON DREAMS spice? 22:00:58 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:01:49 `? indigo 22:01:50 indigo? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:04:41 `? blay 22:04:42 blay? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:05:40 `le/rn blaeg/blaeg is a color that cannot exist under the current understanding of physics. It is used on the #esoteric flag, along with ultraviolet and whatever is convenient. 22:05:43 Learned «blaeg» 22:07:05 `le/rn_append blaeg/It is a nullary color, meaning that it can be mixed with itself to produce the primary colors. 22:07:10 Learned 'blaeg': blaeg is a color that cannot exist under the current understanding of physics. It is used on the #esoteric flag, along with ultraviolet and whatever is convenient. It is a nullary color, meaning that it can be mixed with itself to produce the primary colors. 22:08:24 -!- Xe has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:09:14 `? octarine 22:09:15 octarine? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:09:20 `? tsatsuma 22:09:21 tsatsuma? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:09:27 `? satsuma 22:09:27 satsuma? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:09:32 however is that spelled 22:10:16 b_jonas: Have you ever heard of some sort of Axiomatic Computer Science? 22:10:22 `? icklibogg 22:10:23 icklibogg? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:10:26 -!- tromp has joined. 22:11:46 `? phoenix 22:11:47 phoenix? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:11:48 `? basilisk 22:11:50 basilisk? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:14:08 `? icklibõgg 22:14:10 icklibõgg? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:14:15 `? storgé 22:14:18 storgé? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:14:38 -!- Xe has joined. 22:15:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:15:16 `? title 22:15:18 title? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:15:46 `? titles 22:15:47 titles? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:18:41 `slashlearn title/Titles J. K. Rowling had specifically denied on her webpage would be the titles of the sixth or seventh Harry Potter book are: Harry Potter and the{ Green Flame Torch, Mountain of Fantasy, Fortress of Shadows, Forest of Shadows, Graveyard of Memories, Pyramids of Furmat, Pillar of Storgé, Toenail of Icklibõgg}. 22:18:45 Learned «title» 22:18:57 `? titles 22:18:58 Titles J. K. Rowling had specifically denied on her webpage would be the titles of the sixth or seventh Harry Potter book are: Harry Potter and the{ Green Flame Torch, Mountain of Fantasy, Fortress of Shadows, Forest of Shadows, Graveyard of Memories, Pyramids of Furmat, Pillar of Storgé, Toenail of Icklibõgg}. 22:32:41 -!- fizzie` has joined. 22:41:00 -!- picobit has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:41:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (*.net *.split). 22:41:07 -!- Frooxius has quit (*.net *.split). 22:41:07 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 22:41:07 -!- FreeFull has quit (*.net *.split). 22:41:39 I wake up from my afternoon nap, I check the wisdom repo, and b_jonas went apocalyptical on it. 22:41:39 I shouldn't sleep. it's dangerous. 22:41:55 sorry 22:42:48 `? ursala 22:42:49 ​~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-, 22:42:51 -!- p34k has quit. 22:42:56 is that real ursala code? and what does it mean? 22:43:33 `? vegeta 22:43:34 vegeta? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:45:15 `? ewoks 22:45:16 ewoks? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:45:27 `? wookie 22:45:28 wookie? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:46:20 I believe it is real. there was that PDF manual for the language, but I think it disappeared. 22:46:35 boily: in page 44, why are some entries duplicated? 22:46:49 eh? 22:46:50 Total list of my farbfeld programs now is: ffpng pngff ff-back ff-bright ff-channel ff-colorkey ff-composite ff-convolve ff-crop ff-enlarge ff-gradient ff-hjoin ff-info ff-matrix ff-padsynth ff-paeth ff-poster ff-printf ff-scanf ff-shrink ff-solar ff-turn ff-vjoin 22:46:56 boily: of the wisdom.pdf 22:47:12 `? god 22:47:13 god? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:47:21 `learn GOD is GOD over djinn 22:47:24 Learned 'god': GOD is GOD over djinn 22:47:46 b_jonas: I don't see any duplicates. my page 44 is `W'. 22:48:00 boily: yes, and "webcarting" and "Water" are duplicated 22:48:56 abingadon. 22:49:09 look at that, they sure are. 22:49:10 huh 22:49:15 `? abingadon 22:49:17 abingadon? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:49:29 `? 323 22:49:30 323? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:49:41 abingadon → ah bien regarde donc → oh, well, would you look at that. 22:49:56 ah 22:50:40 `learn 323 is a quine in McCulloch's first machine 22:50:45 Learned '323': 323 is a quine in McCulloch's first machine 22:52:31 but the correctivitations will come later. time to disappear in the Great Outside Void. 22:52:37 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ANOREXIC CHICKEN). 22:55:33 b_jonas: Are djinn a field? 22:59:19 `? submarine jousting 22:59:20 submarine jousting? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:00:56 `? macedonia 23:00:58 macedonia? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:01:02 `? fyrom 23:01:05 fyrom? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:01:16 `? taiwan 23:01:17 taiwan? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:02:02 `learn Macedonia and Taiwan are two countries of which the United Nations denies the existance. 23:02:06 Learned 'macedonia': Macedonia and Taiwan are two countries of which the United Nations denies the existance. 23:05:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:11:15 -!- tromp has joined. 23:15:40 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:15:54 -!- relrod_ has changed nick to relrod. 23:19:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 23:21:13 Man, some of these wisdom entries I add suck, so feel free to replace them with better ones. 23:22:52 b_jonas: Well, partially it's because you packed multiple facts into one entry 23:23:00 `? chatspeak 23:23:01 chatspeak? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:23:12 Wut. 23:23:15 No fungot. 23:23:25 Doesn't seem to be online. 23:23:27 (When typing fun) 23:23:40 hppavilion[2]: um, isn't conflating multiple true facts in a wisdom entry to get one misleading thing actually a good recipe for wisdom? 23:23:51 b_jonas: ...yes? 23:24:00 so waht's the problme? 23:24:05 b_jonas: But you talk about Macedonia AND taiwan in one article 23:24:14 Which reminds me of something funny I thought of 23:24:44 Inspired by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_cats 23:24:56 "Compound Encyclopedic Entries" 23:25:03 For people in a hury 23:25:06 *hurry 23:25:22 They talk about combinations of generally-disparate topics rather than just one topic 23:25:37 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_cats is an intersection, but this idea is a union 23:26:50 But NOT a cartesian product 23:27:02 `? macedonia 23:27:05 Macedonia and Taiwan are two countries of which the United Nations denies the existance. 23:27:19 rotfl 23:27:25 `` mv wisdom/macedonia{, and taiwan} 23:27:26 mv: target `taiwan}' is not a directory 23:27:36 b_jonas: TYS 23:27:39 `` mv wisdom/macedonia{," and taiwan"} 23:27:42 No output. 23:27:43 `quote while confused 23:27:45 927) Áis523ÎkËÇÏ52Í¿ÉnÐffjliated/ais523: ever tried reading while confused? 23:28:03 ye olde bug 23:28:04 oerjan: hey! that should be wisdom/macedonia and possibly wisdom/taiwan 23:29:03 `learn Macedonia is a country of which the United Nations denies the existance, just like Taiwan is. 23:29:08 Learned 'macedonia': Macedonia is a country of which the United Nations denies the existance, just like Taiwan is. 23:29:10 `learn Taiwan is a country of which the United Nations denies the existance, just like Macedonia is. 23:29:14 Learned 'taiwan': Taiwan is a country of which the United Nations denies the existance, just like Macedonia is. 23:30:05 `` sed -i 's/stance/stence/' wisdom/{macedonia,taiwan} 23:30:09 No output. 23:30:25 oh yes... that's among those words I often get wrong 23:30:28 `rm wisdom/macedonia and taiwan 23:30:31 No output. 23:30:32 like message 23:32:56 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:33:10 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 23:35:47 wait what? how can the case ending precede the possessive marker? <-- heh that's one of the main differences i've noticed between finnish and hungarian 23:36:43 iirc another is that finnish declines adjectives like the noun, hungarian doesn't 23:37:07 oerjan: Hungarian does too sometimes, namely when they are after the adjective (separated by a comma), but that's rare 23:37:17 ah 23:37:19 (and has some role difference) 23:38:00 and by "like" i also mean that it agrees with the following noun in case and number 23:38:13 (no gender "alas") 23:38:15 also (more importantly) when they're the predicate (in which case they don't get a case ending but can get a plural suffix), or when they stand alone as a noun phrase, not as an ephitet qualifying a noun phrase, 23:38:40 right 23:39:00 and you also drop plural endings on nouns when redundant 23:39:34 oerjan: that's only when after a numeral. I don't think it happens at any other time. 23:39:41 ah 23:40:23 oh and of course finnish doesn't have articles. 23:40:53 < oerjan> iirc another is that finnish declines adjectives like the noun, hungarian doesn't ← iirc, this was a development in proto-finnic due to influence by baltic and germanic langs where they were inflected as well, while in proto-uralic and early-proto-finnic they didn't 23:41:20 nortti: right i vaguely recall something like that 23:42:16 * oerjan vaguely recalls that he used to vaguely recall all the time 23:42:49 i guess now all my recalls are vague so it's redundant hth 23:42:50 nortti: heh, there's a recent entry related to that: http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-12-17.2343.html 23:43:59 :/ I don't know french 23:45:15 i know just enough to start trying to read and then lose patience after half a minute. 23:54:44 `? nød 23:54:45 nød? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:54:58 `learn nød is French for vertex 23:55:00 Learned 'nød': nød is French for vertex 23:55:03 `? the meaning of life 23:55:05 echo 10181 23:57:19 Wait. 23:57:38 Can we interpret prime numbers as atomic types and composite numbers as tuples? 23:57:44 Whooooooooa 23:58:04 hppavilion[2]: s/tuples/sets/ 23:58:12 wait, bags 23:58:35 oerjan: No, tuples 23:58:40 O KAY 23:58:54 oerjan: Because a composite number is the product of some number of prime numbers 2016-04-18: 00:00:12 `learn Nød is French for vertex. 00:00:14 Relearned 'nød': Nød is French for vertex. 00:00:33 * oerjan pellets b_jonas with some punctuation.....!?!? 00:01:34 also that wisdom entry does not make sense. 00:02:15 oerjan: in reality, nœd is French for node 00:02:18 `forget the meaning of life 00:02:21 Forget what? 00:02:49 b_jonas: aha. 00:04:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:06:12 `learn Nœd is Norwegian for distress. 00:06:15 Learned 'nœd': Nœd is Norwegian for distress. 00:06:34 i'm not sure that's precise enough... 00:07:45 oerjan: is that the same as "not" in german? 00:07:49 `? not 00:07:51 not? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:07:56 hm probably 00:12:51 Hm... 00:13:25 `? stalagmite 00:13:28 A stalagmite is an upside-down stalctite. 00:13:37 I need a logical next item in this sequence: Either the value 1 OR the value 2; the value 1 AND the value 2; a map from the value 1 TO the value 2 00:13:46 `? stalactite 00:13:47 A stalactite is an upside-down stalagmite. 00:13:56 `? stalagtite 00:13:57 stalagtite? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:14:01 `` sed -i 's/lct/lact/' wisdom/stalagmite 00:14:04 No output. 00:14:22 ah, good catch 00:14:59 oerjan: Any idea what's higher than a function (where a higher-order function is at the same level as a function)? 00:15:17 `? rap 00:15:18 no. 00:15:18 rap? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:15:19 `? scat 00:15:20 scat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:15:30 oerjan: Darn 00:15:39 `? curse 00:15:40 `? curses 00:15:40 curse? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:15:41 curses? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:16:03 b_jonas: You have any clue? 00:16:23 `learn A curse is a curse, off course, of course. 00:16:26 Learned 'curse': A curse is a curse, off course, of course. 00:23:39 And a curse, it gets worse, of course, of course 00:23:43 That is, of course 00:23:47 Unless the curse 00:24:00 Is something I can't make fit to the original song 00:25:38 all we need is curse whose name rhymes with Ed hth 00:27:39 `? schaf 00:27:41 ​"Schaf" is german for "sheep". There is absolutely no relation to shachaf. 00:33:40 `slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. <-- um you weren't paying attention, were you. 00:33:52 i guess it was too subtle. 00:35:15 oh it was fixed 00:35:55 oerjan: yep 00:36:51 -!- centrinia has joined. 00:44:46 `? soviet russia 00:44:48 ​¯\(°​_o)/¯ soviet russia? 00:44:55 `slashlearn 00:44:56 No output. 00:44:58 Huh 00:45:32 -!- hppavilion[2] has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Camelot (not THE PIT OF THE SOUL-EATER). 00:46:51 `quote 00:46:52 515) one time I tried cpp programming ​ it was hellish ​ maybe I should try again 00:46:54 `quote 00:46:54 `quote 00:46:54 `quote 00:46:55 `quote 00:46:56 884) What I learned on the Prolog course is that it's a good language if you need a thing that can say "No" a lot. 00:47:02 686) Stupid W|A doesn't even understand "Vatican papal density". (As far as countries go, they've got a quite high one.) 00:47:03 899) oerjan: humans are very hard to anthropomorphise 00:47:03 127) Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible) 00:47:03 hppavilion[2]: way to break the chain 00:47:19 oerjan: Wait, was there a chain? 00:47:25 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1]. 00:48:19 hppavilion[1]: there was a principle, and i suspect you broke it although your reference is too obscure for me to know on the spot. 00:49:06 oerjan: Excellent, excellent 00:49:14 oerjan: Yes, it's definitely a reference 00:49:31 i cannot manage to google the term " `slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you." 00:49:34 wtf 00:49:49 oh i hadn't actually c/p it 00:49:59 "pit of the soul-eater" 00:50:16 where's that from, and how did that turn into camelot 00:51:42 oerjan: I chose two random mythical locations and spewed them out onto the topic 00:51:54 oerjan: the "pit of the soul eater" itself is just a general concept 00:51:58 ic 00:52:05 well doesn't fit the theme 00:52:20 oerjan: What's the theme? 00:52:24 oerjan: Countries? 00:52:41 (as in, cities-in-the-country-in-which-you-live) 00:53:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Kinshasa (not Leopoldville). 00:54:45 oerjan: I still don't get the them 00:55:03 oerjan: Remember, I'm American and thus don't understand the rest of the world. 00:55:15 hppavilion[1]: have you considered google hth 00:55:29 oerjan: I wouldn't know what to google 00:56:20 you could, for example, google kinshasa. 00:56:23 oerjan: Oh, places conquered by other places?? 00:56:31 s/\?\?/?/ 00:56:38 not really. 00:56:53 Yeah, looks like it 00:57:04 oerjan: As in, constantinople -> istanbul 00:57:21 although that might increase the chance of it fitting, that's not the definition 00:58:17 also, google Istanbul (not Constantinople) while you're at it. 00:58:48 oerjan: Yes, I know, Istanbul (not Constantinople) 00:58:55 oerjan: I think I'm the one that started the chain, actually xD 00:59:11 oerjan: Oh, renamed cities 00:59:23 yay 01:00:03 `? o 01:00:06 o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, 01:00:39 ... 01:00:51 `? p 01:00:52 p? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:01:22 `` \? o | fmt | tail -3 01:01:23 oerjan: wait what? wasn't the first one Budapest? was that supposed to be because it got renamed from Pest-Buda or Aquincum or something? 01:01:26 problems at the same time. Hopefully not in that order, so they get \ their personal problems taken care of before the final battle. And it's \ a comedy. 01:01:36 b_jonas: i haven't seen budapest 01:01:46 I thought that was the first one.. 01:01:59 or maybe some other place in Hungary or something 01:02:01 istanbul was definitely first. 01:02:16 and i think the second was me changing it to Oslo 01:03:20 b_jonas: The first one was Istanbul (not Constantinople), which was done by me. It was California previously, before which it was Budapest, but neither of those had the not-clause 01:03:32 oh, right 01:03:32 hppavilion[1]: I see 01:03:39 i forgot about those 01:03:58 oerjan: The lack of not-clause disqualifies them from the chain 01:05:16 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ceylon (Sri Lanka). 01:05:22 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ceylon (not Sri Lanka). 01:05:30 b_jonas: um that's backwards 01:05:48 topic is hard 01:06:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ceylon (not Sri Lanka). Lack of cloaks will result in immediate execution.. 01:06:47 i think this chain is jumping the shark. 01:06:52 (Yes, I get what the joke meant originally) 01:07:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ceylon (not Sri Lanka). Lack of cloaks will result in immediate execution by shark.. 01:07:33 oerjan: Yes, and now we've repurposed said shark 01:07:43 and you didn't fix the order tdnh 01:08:06 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Dunaújváros or St. Petersburg (not Sztálingrád or Leningrad). 01:08:10 oerjan: That's b_jonas's job 01:08:19 b_jonas: :( 01:08:33 b_jonas: i think two of those words are _very_ hungarianly spelled 01:09:01 especially Dunaújváros wtf is that 01:09:24 oh 01:09:32 * oerjan swats himself -----### 01:09:43 oerjan: the "new" name of Dunapentele. it's been renamed in ancient times. 01:10:23 i don't think it was -grád, though? 01:11:30 oerjan: ah no... Sztálingrád is another renamed town 01:11:47 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Dunaújváros or St. Petersburg (not Sztálinváros or Leningrad). 01:13:21 "After the Hungarian revolution of 1956 the new government renamed the city the neutral Dunaújváros in 1961, which means "Danube New City" (New City on the Danube)." <-- where is the "new" 01:13:41 oh új 01:13:57 * oerjan assumed the ú was part of the river 01:18:27 `? try 01:18:28 try? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:18:43 `slashlearn try/There is no try. 01:18:45 Learned «try» 01:19:09 `? spice 01:19:11 spice girls/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice. 01:19:17 ... 01:19:21 ah 01:19:34 `slashlearn spice girls/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice. 01:19:36 Learned «spice girls» 01:19:39 `slashlearn spice/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice. 01:19:42 Relearned «spice» 01:19:48 `? spice 01:19:50 The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice. 01:20:04 `? kitten 01:20:06 `? kitten typesetting 01:20:08 kitten ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:20:08 kitten typesetting? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:20:12 `? kitt 01:20:13 Kitt is the singular of kitten. 01:22:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:23:51 `? octarine 01:23:52 octarine? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:25:08 `learn Octarine is a black variety of peach, from which the color is named. 01:25:11 Learned 'octarine': Octarine is a black variety of peach, from which the color is named. 01:28:22 -!- XorSwap has joined. 01:31:43 `? 323 01:31:45 323 is a quine in McCulloch's first machine 01:31:56 `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/323 01:31:58 No output. 01:39:08 esomake 01:42:32 oerjan: Are any of McCulloch's Machines decidable? 01:43:44 i've only looked at no. 2, which i didn't get quite to the bottom of 01:44:04 i suspect it's decidable, but it got complicated enough that i'm not entirely sure 01:44:17 `learn Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families. 01:44:23 Learned 'virgil': Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families. 01:45:42 oerjan: OK, because I need a decidable-but-suitably-complex machine to troll first-year CS students 01:46:27 * oerjan has a hunch b_jonas is misspelling "vigil" 01:47:43 hm i see... 01:48:07 hppavilion[1]: no. 1 is decidable because it's a subset of 2 that doesn't reach the hard cases 01:48:29 oerjan: OK 01:49:13 for deciding mortality that is 01:51:18 -!- Froo has joined. 01:54:30 -!- Froox has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:03:09 -!- sebbu has joined. 02:08:03 -!- tromp has joined. 02:11:23 I have just realized a horrible potential hole in my specification of Daoyu 02:12:39 If the program calls EXECS from the first-level program, which navigates to the top-level program data and then calls an EXECS from the top-level program data, 02:13:43 It is unclear whether the EXECS should then act on the data already present or instantiate a new child of that program-data 02:13:58 What say you? New branch or not? 02:17:31 Kaynato: Whatever is less simple 02:17:34 oerjan's razor 02:18:13 Both are particularly problematic for the programmer - however, the second one is also particularly problematic for the implementer 02:18:39 The question, I suppose, is between self-interaction (which is a tenet of the language) and getting lost in trees of branching 02:19:58 Kaynato: Keep languages focused on on the initial featureset rather than heaping new aspects of complexity onto them. 02:20:13 It's not really an addition but filling a hole 02:20:21 -!- Frooxius has joined. 02:20:26 I realized that the functionality here was not specified but didn't know what to do with it... 02:20:47 As it stands, the current implementation just creates a new datatape when calling EXECS without checking to see if one exists, which.. 02:21:00 Leads to segfaults when it tries to follow the chain backwards 02:21:21 But so far I haven't really made programs that rely on this distinction of functionality 02:21:52 I suppose it would be imperative to have self-interaction instead of that sort of situation, then, because it would keep in line more with the rest of the language 02:22:55 -!- Froo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:24:19 Recently I think I have devised a generalizable format for making a state machine in the language, and am currently using this design to write a 99 bottles of beer program 02:25:31 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:28:42 `? manpage 02:28:45 manpage? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 02:28:49 `? womanpage 02:28:52 womanpage? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 02:29:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:31:32 -!- variable has joined. 02:32:09 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:42:12 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:43:51 -!- MDude has joined. 02:44:36 -!- FreeFull_ has changed nick to FreeFull. 02:47:15 For far too long, power has been concentrated in the hands of "root" and his "wheel" oligarchy. We have instituted a dictatorship of the users. All system administration functions will be handled by the People's Committee for Democratically Organizing the System (PC-DOS). 02:48:39 -!- nitrix- has quit (Changing host). 02:48:39 -!- nitrix- has joined. 02:48:43 -!- nitrix- has changed nick to nitrix. 02:52:18 -!- picobit has joined. 02:57:56 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 03:10:10 Huh 03:10:15 "Co-administrator" 03:19:36 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 03:20:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:30:36 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:37:19 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:42:42 -!- heroux has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:47:09 -!- heroux has joined. 03:50:20 -!- heroux has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:50:39 -!- heroux has joined. 03:55:24 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:57:07 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 03:57:16 -!- heroux has joined. 03:58:56 After a 99 bottles program, what would be a good thing to work on in an esolang? 04:01:10 Text adventure? 04:01:41 Did you write the truth program or Deadfish implementation? 04:02:05 -!- heroux has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:04:31 http://www.firthworks.com/roger/cloak/index.html 04:07:15 -!- heroux has joined. 04:14:51 I wrote a truth program, so I suppose Deadfish will be next 04:15:23 No, wait, it involves squaring numbers 04:16:18 I blame myself for making a language in which arithmetic is non-trivial 04:17:10 Kaynato: prove TC 04:17:30 I would love to but I haven't the slightest idea where to start here. 04:17:38 I have a strong suspicion that Daoyu is TC, however 04:18:03 -!- XorSwap has joined. 04:18:20 TC by Equivalency... BF in Daoyu does not seem very feasible. 04:19:18 As in sensible without extreme amounts of pain and suffeering 04:20:04 Kaynato: "modeled after two or so tenets..." you've got me 04:20:38 Glad to see someone interested :) 04:22:15 If there is any way to improve the wiki page, please tell me immediately 04:23:27 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:28:01 Kaynato: it would be helpful to have an explanation of child stacks and selections 04:28:23 also... how is a new path created? 04:28:40 Hm, should I put this before or after the commands? 04:28:45 I'd say before 04:30:09 Also I don't see an example illustrating # 04:30:34 Ah, yes, I forgot about that halfway through 04:30:47 I think an explanation of child tapes and selections should cover it, though 04:33:58 is # the only way to make a child tape? 04:34:19 Yes 04:36:33 There we go 04:36:47 Kaynato: bitwise cyclic tag is a popular equivalence target for very awkward languages 04:37:25 if you can make a queue, you're halfway there 04:38:00 Hm, this might work. I could extend the 0 and 1 into 0000 and 1000, and I think it could work pretty handily 04:41:22 Is this explanation good? 04:42:38 Hmm, wait a second. Does the initial data-string also have to be arbitrary for it to be TC? 04:43:02 hm good question 04:43:42 indeed 04:44:50 "*Note*: BCT remains Turing complete even if the initial data-string is always just a single 1." 04:44:53 I was thinking that it ought to be rather decently doable, aside from that input problem, since using SIFTS, POLAR, and EQUAL, with 0 = 1000, 1 = 1001, nothing = 0000, would work well 04:44:57 Oh, very nice 04:45:40 A problem, however, is in reading in the BCT program 04:46:10 you have the option of compiling it to a Daoyu program instead 04:46:35 Ah, because if I show that every BCT program is a Daoyu program, then it is still a proof 04:46:41 yeah 04:47:19 (as long as the construction is computable, but you don't need to do it in either of the languages themselves) 04:47:54 Mhm. I've written a utility in C for Daoyu which outputs the Daoyu source to construct an arbitrary Daoyu program 04:48:32 Partially, it's to make writing the 99 bottles program even remotely sane... 04:50:00 i've written haskell utilities like that for other esolangs 04:50:24 I've recently bought a Scheme book, it seems very good 04:50:39 (see /// and Emmental) 04:51:35 Ah, yes, I would expect so indeed 04:52:31 I am not sure... was implementing Daoyu in C the right choice? 04:52:45 I think that is fine 04:53:45 C may not be the easiest language to implement interpreters in, but it does the job 04:54:06 and is fast 04:54:44 Necessary, for something like this 04:54:59 It would make sense, honestly, to make a hardware implementation for this 04:55:31 I am making a testing Daoyu program to debug some edge behavior of EXECS 04:58:29 Kaynato: btw we have a table css class called plainpres which might make your code-in-table examples prettier (removes the borders) 04:59:33 Thanks, I just put that in 04:59:44 Looks much better now :) 04:59:59 Also, would it be a good idea to comment my example code? 05:11:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:17:58 New EXECS functionality implemented and working, to the sweet sound of SEGVFAULT 05:19:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:04:44 Added the debug program to the page for some reason... Good night, all 06:09:13 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:17:51 -!- picobit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:20:03 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:41:20 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 06:50:40 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:53:15 -!- tromp has joined. 06:57:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:02:48 The rules for Magic: the Gathering do not currently specify what happens if you try to add a snow mana symbol into your mana pool 07:03:47 That's not a thing you can do, is it? 07:04:56 I don't know if there is any combination that would allow it 07:05:23 You also can't add Phyrexian mana to your mana pool. 07:05:33 Those are consume-only symbols as far as I know. 07:05:43 zzo38: What do you think of the new colorless mana symbol? 07:06:38 It is OK, I guess. I may have preferred a solid diamond or thicker but still hollow diamond, but it still works as is. 07:11:51 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 07:12:45 I don't think I like that {1} was errataed to the new symbol. 07:12:54 When producing, I mean. 07:14:56 I neither agree nor disagree. However I can note that even if it wasn't changed the effect would be the same. When the amount of colorless mana to add is large I would prefer the number though, and the rules do support it. 07:17:59 zzo38: I don't think it can happen. You can add the mana cost of a card to your mana pool, but snow mana symbols can't appear in mana costs. 07:19:17 -!- rdococ has joined. 07:41:36 -!- mroman has joined. 07:45:28 cool they're analyzing now how much dialogue in movies is said by what gender. 07:51:31 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:54:57 -!- tromp has joined. 07:59:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:02:51 what? why the hell would they do that? 08:05:42 It probably also depend what movie, too. With a SQL database listing the movies and dialogues then you can divide to make the statistics whichever one you want to calculate. 08:10:15 rdococ: Gender studies of course. 08:13:50 also I don't like when newspaper try to dumb stuff down for the reader. That just reinforces inaccurate views. 08:16:52 gender studies? 08:17:41 why would someone do gender studies? all it is is going to cause arguments and excuses for people to moan 08:17:47 it's probably rigged too 08:18:55 well... if you see some difference you can either interpret it as good or bad. 08:19:08 and convince people it is good or bad. 08:20:57 -!- tromp has joined. 08:24:54 That's why you need to provide the raw data so that you can make your own calculation by SQL codes. 08:25:54 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:31:32 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:32:43 that doesn't help you 08:33:03 It's a matter of how you interpret the data :) 08:33:15 25% people can speak french. 08:33:17 that's data 08:33:29 It doesn't say squat about why, how and if it's bad or not. 08:33:59 sure, if you're french you can get enraged and go yelling around "more people should speak french" 08:34:25 or you can get enraged and go yelling around "too many people speak french" 08:38:42 also I stumbled upon a video on youtube, started to watch it 08:39:26 then suddenly the speaker says "let me point out that this is not anti-jew propaganda" and then I'm like "uhm... why is he saying that" 08:39:38 then I read the title of the channel saying "worldwar three" and I'm like "uhm... what?" 08:40:04 and by stumbled I mean youtubes autoplay feature :) 09:20:23 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:28:42 `? boring 09:28:46 boring? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 09:38:35 It's a ring in the category of bo 09:40:30 mroman: no, it's just... I'm in a half mind to `learn boring wisdom entries are added by b_jonas to trick others to replace them by good ones 10:16:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:16:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 10:18:12 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 10:19:14 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 10:26:33 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:26:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:50:44 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:58:02 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:58:51 -!- carado has joined. 11:22:30 -!- tromp has joined. 11:24:37 -!- boily has joined. 11:26:58 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:27:07 -!- j-bot has joined. 11:29:59 boily: you know there are some lines in the wisdom.pdf that are so long they don't fit in the page, right? There's an url in page 13, some lisp code in page 27, another url in page 42, 11:32:22 boily: a shell command pipeline in page 49, a headword in page 53. 11:33:20 boily: but thanks for the pdf anyway, it's a nice compilation, I'm glad you're makign it. 11:33:41 b_jellonas! 11:33:56 yeah, overlong lines are the bane of my existence. 11:36:46 fungot, how do you like them overlong lines? 11:37:26 fungot is not here! :( 11:37:34 Tanelle.! 11:37:51 fizzie`: WHARGHRLGHGHBLFLGHBHRFHFHFHFHFWERRGRGGGGGGGGGRRRRHHH! 11:47:22 -!- jaboja has joined. 12:00:11 `? slough 12:00:19 slough /slaʊ/ or /sluː/ means a marsh; slough /slʌf/ means skin thrown off a reptile 12:00:31 /sluː/??? 12:01:40 -!- lleu has joined. 12:02:17 -!- diginet_ has joined. 12:02:28 -!- mbrcknl_ has joined. 12:02:41 and the UN denies Macedonia? what a world we live in... 12:03:49 `? ha 12:03:52 Ha van szíved, hogy mindazt, mit elértél, / Ha kell, egyetlen kockára rakd, / s túltegyed magad, ha veszteség ér, / s ne legyen róla többé egy szavad 12:04:12 -!- pelegreno_ has joined. 12:04:17 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 12:04:25 -!- Effilry has joined. 12:04:34 -!- mysanthrop has joined. 12:04:53 -!- int-e_ has joined. 12:05:55 -!- mbrcknl has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:05:56 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:05:56 -!- hydraz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:05:56 -!- diginet has quit (Quit: diginet has quit!). 12:05:57 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:05:59 -!- myname has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:05:59 -!- int-e has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:06:00 -!- pelegreno has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:06:03 -!- diginet_ has changed nick to diginet. 12:06:49 -!- hydraz has joined. 12:06:49 -!- hydraz has quit (Changing host). 12:06:49 -!- hydraz has joined. 12:07:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer). 12:07:06 -!- mbrcknl_ has changed nick to mbrcknl. 12:07:57 b_jonas: google translate doesn't help much. nothing lewd in there I hope? 12:08:24 (as if the Wisdom isn't already lewdfull enough as it is. reproductive organs everywhere...) 12:14:43 -!- zadock has joined. 12:17:16 -!- boily has quit (Quit: INTERFACE CHICKEN). 12:32:55 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:35:10 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie. 12:35:28 -!- fungot has joined. 12:35:36 That's been very un-stabbel. 12:36:13 @tell boily OVERFULL HBOX 12:36:13 Consider it noted. 12:38:04 -!- llue has joined. 12:40:39 -!- lleu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:44:13 -!- llue has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 12:44:22 -!- lleu has joined. 12:48:56 -!- mysanthrop has changed nick to myname. 12:57:41 boily: it's Szabó Lőrincz's translation of the same part of Kipling's poem as in `? if 13:07:05 argh 13:07:15 s/incz/inc/ (duh) 13:07:15 -!- Effilry has changed nick to FireFly. 13:21:49 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 13:22:29 -!- Frooxius has joined. 13:27:13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NriDTxseog 13:27:40 I generally tend to associate the west coast/california accents she makes with "mean rich arrogant non-nice white girls" 13:28:06 like totally sooo not nice... 13:30:34 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NriDTxseog#t=3m05s ) 13:30:34 (input):1:9: error: unexpected 13:30:35 Operator without known fixity: 13:30:35 ://, expected: space 13:30:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NriDTxseog#t=3m05s ) 13:30:35 ^ 13:30:38 hm. 13:30:41 :D 14:39:20 -!- tromp has joined. 14:43:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:43:47 -!- I has joined. 14:44:06 -!- I has changed nick to Guest15642. 14:52:36 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:53:46 -!- nitrix has quit (Quit: EOF). 14:54:45 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:59:41 we should write a webserver in vbscript 15:08:34 -!- nitrix has joined. 15:09:57 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:17:53 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:21:40 -!- greenlock has joined. 15:25:34 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 15:35:29 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 15:38:57 -!- spiette has joined. 15:44:11 -!- rdococ has joined. 15:59:09 -!- Reece` has joined. 15:59:17 `? font 15:59:29 `? oren's font 15:59:35 font? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:59:35 oren's font? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:00:46 -!- nycs has joined. 16:04:22 -!- Guest15642 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:20:11 `? yay 16:20:18 yay? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:20:22 what? no yay? 16:20:34 make it learn yay as YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! 16:21:38 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin. 16:29:03 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:37:55 -!- Kaynato has joined. 16:41:42 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 16:42:49 -!- greenlock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:46:47 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:08:32 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:10:34 -!- nycs has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:12:08 -!- nycs has joined. 17:14:47 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 17:19:09 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:25:49 -!- MoALTz has joined. 17:56:12 -!- tromp has joined. 17:59:33 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:00:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:04:55 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:13:43 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:15:07 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:23:42 -!- gamemanj has joined. 18:25:05 Is there some magical fairy I can get that will tell me if I make stupid assumptions like "false is 0"? 18:34:14 sometimes, false is 0 18:36:23 you're making stupid assumptions 18:43:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:43:59 A combination of log and floor allows you to seriously abuse math 18:45:58 which combination? 18:47:06 gamemanj: n^. = n/n^log_k (n) 18:47:29 "log_k"? 18:47:34 gamemanj: Wait 18:47:42 gamemanj: n^. = n/n^floor(log_k (n)) 18:47:54 gamemanj: _k means "subscript k" 18:48:00 gamemanj: That's an operation that takes an integer (or real, maybe) and moves it to after the decimal point 18:48:13 Wait 18:48:17 gamemanj: n^. = n/k^floor(log_k (n)) 18:48:27 There, that's right 18:49:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:49:24 gamemanj: Typically- but not necessarily- k is the base that n is expressed in (10, oftentimes), but it can be an arbitrary real to allow for non-place-value systems 18:50:04 gamemanj: Basically, the floor(log_k (n)) means "the number of digits it takes to write (integer) n out on paper in base k" 19:00:07 -!- carado has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:00:08 -!- caradow has joined. 19:02:02 actually, the number of digits is one more than the floor(log()) 19:02:24 e.g. 10 takes 2 digits 19:02:48 and the number of Go positions takes 171 digits:) 19:03:39 tromp_: Saw that coming xD 19:05:19 -!- picobit has joined. 19:06:10 What's Pseudoscientific Notation? 19:06:26 Probably similar to scientific notation, but it uses phi instead of 10 19:07:02 base phi is p cool 19:09:23 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but also useless in hard science 19:18:17 > floor (log 0) + 1 19:18:19 -179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805... 19:18:20 -!- int-e_ has changed nick to int-e. 19:19:06 > floor (log 0 / log 10) + 1 -- oops, wrong formula ;-) 19:19:08 -179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805... 19:19:37 :t logBase 19:19:38 Floating a => a -> a -> a 19:41:36 :t floor 19:41:37 (Integral b, RealFrac a) => a -> b 19:41:47 I wonder what that integer is 19:41:52 log 0 is -infinity 19:42:05 FreeFull: So the first digit of -infinity is 1? 19:42:21 hppavilion[1]: Apparently, yeah 19:42:24 :t mod 19:42:25 Integral a => a -> a -> a 19:42:35 FreeFull: I've heard there's an algorithm to calculate the nth digit of pi 19:42:41 > mod 10 $ floor (log 0) 19:42:42 -179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805... 19:42:44 FreeFull: What happens if you plug in infinity? 19:42:49 > flip mod 10 $ floor (log 0) 19:42:50 4 19:42:57 hppavilion[1]: The last digit of -infinity is 4 19:42:57 FreeFull: Huh. 19:43:23 hppavilion[1]: And yeah, you can calculate the nth digit of pi without having to calculate all the preceeding digits 19:43:46 hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spigot_algorithm 19:43:56 FreeFull: So what happens if you plug in infinity, assuming that you have at least OK definitions of what happens when you math infinity? 19:45:01 presumably it doesn't work 19:45:12 hppavilion[1]: It still takes an infinite amount of time to calculate 19:46:05 -!- centrinia has joined. 19:46:06 hppavilion[1]: Actually, no 19:47:09 -!- centrinia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:47:28 hppavilion[1]: Either way, it seems you can't get an answer from it if you put in infinity 19:50:21 Hm... 19:50:42 If the opposite of infinity is unfinity (the infinitessimal), rather than -infinity 19:50:54 Does the behavior of duality of operations change? 19:52:32 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:56:47 > prime 2 19:56:48 Not in scope: ‘prime’ 19:56:52 > isPrime 2 19:56:53 Not in scope: ‘isPrime’ 19:56:53 Perhaps you meant ‘isPrint’ (imported from Data.Char) 19:58:30 i,i is' 2 19:58:41 tfw you make a quick patch to a vm to help debug a problem in your program under the vm, and then, due to a shifting about of allocations, find the patch is now crashing the program 19:58:45 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:04:36 -!- centrinia has joined. 20:15:03 Do fandoms have a concept of "Low Orbit Ion Canon"? 20:15:31 fungot, are you cured yet? 20:15:31 b_jonas: http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 15698... you should be on a different area at msn.com... thing was also to make it not know how to program 20:15:57 great! 20:16:02 I'm glad you're back, fungot 20:16:03 b_jonas: same source as five in my case 20:16:24 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:16:48 fungot: putting absolutely every letter except "o" and "t" in esoteric. 20:16:48 gamemanj: sing me the budapest national anthem!!! o_o 20:19:55 And also asking me to sing songs I don't know. 20:20:48 fungot: Strangely appropriate 20:20:48 hppavilion[1]: i would screw it until i realized its generated :) 20:21:06 ...You were saying? 20:21:15 .....wat 20:33:16 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 20:35:17 -!- MoALTz has joined. 20:40:55 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:42:24 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar). 20:44:25 -!- caradow has changed nick to carado. 20:48:01 `? FireFly 20:48:17 FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon. 20:48:25 `? shachaf 20:48:27 shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of bad punnery is named after him. 20:48:33 `? selamat pagi 20:48:35 selamat pagi? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:49:10 seems I'm *still* not going to understand that anytime soon 20:49:25 `` cat < wisdom/funpun | cat | rot13 | cat | cat > wisdom/shachaf 20:49:34 No output. 20:49:38 `? shachaf 20:49:40 shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him. 20:49:43 much better hth 20:51:27 InspireFly 20:54:20 -!- p34k has joined. 21:11:37 -!- iconmaster_ has joined. 21:16:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:18:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:25:41 shachaf: what about impassionate bell peppers? 21:26:38 int-e: :33 < ask the purrson who added that wisdom entry hth 21:33:02 -!- nycs has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 21:36:04 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:52:27 -!- I has joined. 21:52:50 -!- I has changed nick to Guest72001. 21:55:39 -!- bb010g has joined. 21:57:10 `slashlearn oren's font/\oren\'s font is http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm 21:57:26 Learned «oren's font» 21:57:49 -!- tromp has joined. 21:58:30 -!- testtesttest has joined. 21:58:33 "Powerline characters"? 21:59:25 `slashlearn lifthrasiir's font/lifthrashiir's font is https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png 21:59:32 Learned «lifthrasiir's font» 21:59:34 `? font 21:59:36 font? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:59:49 how many fonts??? 22:01:30 Ok, why is it that 3 people in #esoteric have their own fonts? 22:01:34 `slashlearn font/#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz 22:01:37 Learned «font» 22:01:53 ...make that 4.... 22:02:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:02:04 gamemanj: because #esoteric is the international hub of esoteric programming, bitmap font making, and kitten typesetting 22:02:08 gamemanj: wait, who's the fourth? 22:02:10 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/font2x.png 22:03:27 -!- testtesttest has quit (Quit: Page closed). 22:03:33 If it looks awful, that's because it's awful. 22:03:34 gamemanj: whoa, all in one wide strip. looks strange 22:04:00 It's laid out so that I can quickly write tools to put it into things. 22:04:38 hmm wait 22:04:44 I think there was one more, a vector font 22:04:51 a monospaced one with thin lines 22:04:55 in a custom format 22:04:58 whose was that again? 22:05:29 I have no idea. 22:06:51 I think it was hppavilion[1] 22:07:13 -!- Kaynato has joined. 22:07:25 hppavilion[1]: can you comment? remind us to screenshots or something? 22:07:38 I recall it was horribly hinted 22:07:41 unhinted 22:07:43 something like that 22:07:49 made it look ugly 22:08:18 I suppose a monospaced font in a custom format would be the next logical step for a budding font author, unless they know how to use fontforge (note: I do not) 22:08:49 gamemanj: this had some sort of eso purpose. more than the other fonts that is 22:09:16 oh wow 22:09:31 ? 22:09:53 ah no 22:10:23 I made a font too, for rfk86. 22:10:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:10:34 Actually, come to think of it, why on earth did I paste the link to my x2 monospace font...? 22:11:34 (The x2 one doesn't have a good excuse for looking ugly!) 22:11:35 https://zem.fi/rfk86/ is written in it (if the web font stuff works out). 22:11:52 fizzie: Wow, that is... one tiny font. 22:12:14 Though it was strictly for that use, so I didn't strive for a big character coverage. 22:12:39 I think the character encoding may be... broken... 22:12:42 It's one tiny screen, 128x96. 22:12:50 "”€â”€â”€â”€â”€â”€â”€â" 22:13:10 ^ characters copied from the "frame" 22:13:18 stupid confusing mislabelled stuff 22:14:13 Hm. It works for me in Chrome, but it's possible it's not sending the character set. 22:14:57 It says "Attempt to use an XML processing instruction in HTML." Which makes no sense. 22:15:46 Huh, yes, it's not quite kosher. Wonder how I never noticed. 22:16:04 Well, I pressed "View Source" in Firefox and there was a big red line. 22:16:07 Then I hovered over it. 22:16:33 The content is xhtml, but it's sent as "Content-type: text/html" with no charset spec. 22:16:50 fizzie: that's common 22:16:53 Well, Firefox at least believes it's HTML, not XHTML... 22:17:07 ^ above XML tag had the error 22:17:14 It kind of predates html5 being a big thing. 22:18:48 I will turn it into something more reasonable, but later. 22:19:01 "Kittens have eaten the developer's link cable," :( kittens... i thought they were nice... 22:19:09 `? fizzie 22:19:16 and what's this about a modernist sculpture out of the pieces of calculators 22:19:24 fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg 22:19:32 It was actually one rather big cat. 22:19:53 Cables can kind of look like cat toys. 22:20:35 `? shachaf 22:20:38 shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him. 22:20:40 `? gamemanj 22:20:41 gamemanj? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:20:49 yay, I'm undocumented! Thank goodness 22:20:54 the world hasn't found a reason to mock me yet 22:21:37 I was undocumented for quite long too 22:21:55 ``` hg log -r wisdom/b_jonas 22:22:01 abort: unknown revision 'wisdom/b_jonas'! 22:22:10 `? b_jonas 22:22:12 b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek. 22:22:15 ... 22:22:36 `` cat wisdom/b_jonas | rot13 22:22:38 o_wbanf rtl antlba gvgbxmngbf fmrzéyl. Ubyyégéeőy rtlryőer arz vfzregrx. 22:22:41 ... 22:22:59 well, I'm out of tricks 22:24:32 -!- Guest72001 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:24:50 ``` hg log --template "{date|isodate}\n" wisdom/b_jonas 22:24:54 2016-01-18 06:32 +0000 \ 2016-01-17 13:56 +0000 22:25:05 hg_jonas 22:25:19 so I was undocumented until 2016-01 22:26:53 so in other news, if you need a variety of stick figures for your web comic, and you don't want to draw them, look no further than U+16C0! 22:27:12 * gamemanj had been looking at a bitmap font and noticed weirdness in that area 22:28:49 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:40:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:40:27 -!- p34k has quit. 22:40:42 A language that looks like valid C code but has completely different semantics could be fun 22:41:20 `? b_jonas 22:41:32 b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek. 22:41:34 How about: passing all values by-reference... making structures objects... and of course making "int" 1 bit in length. 22:41:47 ("boolean" would be 256-bit.) 22:42:03 someone remind me what the translation commands are 22:42:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:42:13 deprecated hth 22:42:15 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 22:42:45 mediocre! 22:43:57 Actually, maybe a C compiler that treated all operations as function calls to a standard library... and then seriously screw up that library. 22:44:43 Like making "a += b;" be more like "(*a) = a[*b];" 22:45:45 Maybe add an actual increment in the process. (because the in-language ++ would, without fail, cause a segmentation fault) 22:49:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:51:21 I was thinking more like making even basic things, like the meaning of =, *, and {} completely different 22:54:20 -!- boily has joined. 22:55:21 @tell rdococ what? why the hell would they do that? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test 22:55:21 Consider it noted. 22:55:37 seriously, was rdococ trolling 22:55:49 bohily 22:56:21 hellørjan! 22:56:25 @massages-loud 22:56:25 fizzie said 10h 20m 12s ago: OVERFULL HBOX 22:56:43 fizzie: FIZZIELLO. OKAY. 22:56:57 ye olde overfulle hbox 22:58:10 "overfull hbox"? 22:58:18 ...?? 22:58:27 gamemanj: a very common LaTeX warning message 22:58:37 Oh. TeX. Of course. 22:59:04 gamellomanj. do you have a github account? 22:59:11 it basically means that it didn't manage to split your text into lines satisfactorily 22:59:41 boily: hi 22:59:44 boily: There is a 50% probability. Please refine your question with informative information on the nature of why it was posed. 22:59:45 (although sometimes it's small enough that you can just ignore it, anyway) 22:59:50 b_jonas: b_jellonas! 23:00:39 gamemanj: the questional informativeness pertains to the wisdomery collaborationism hth 23:00:49 gamemanj: he's trying to press gang you into sending wisdom pull requests hth 23:01:46 I wouldn't say "press gang". more like "voluntarily devote oneself for the greater good". 23:02:13 b_jonas: the Soviet Union renamed cities even in Hungarian? 23:02:15 boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better. 23:02:32 `addquote boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better. 23:02:38 1276) boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better. 23:02:54 -!- XorSwap has joined. 23:02:58 boily: also in German hth 23:03:36 `? boring 23:03:38 boring? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:03:44 i guess that wisdom entry never got added 23:03:51 boily: no, I think the city _started_ as Sztálinváros, but then near 1985 people obsessively renamed every street and other name that could be linked in any way with the communist system or idols, and anything referring to Stalin, Marx, Lenin, or Engels definitely had to go. It's more complicated than that because some things were renamed twice, 23:04:16 `learn Boring means of little interest. 23:04:19 and some street names did get renamed once under the Soviet rule and then back to their old name after 1990 23:04:22 Learned 'boring': Boring means of little interest. 23:04:28 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:04:30 but I don't think that's happened to Dunaújváros 23:04:36 oerjan: i have a boring bank account 23:04:47 shachaf: wat 23:04:59 it's hard to get any other kind 23:05:09 b_jonas: the entries aren't boring. I am pondering about some recategorification, about langs (esoteric or not) and places (fictive or not quite exactly unfictive). 23:05:26 (in case it isn't obvious, i went for meta up there) 23:05:28 boily: _some_ of the entries aren't boring, yes 23:05:52 I mix in good ones to stop people from just using the hg log to unconditionally revert everything I do 23:06:28 oerjan: anyway i was thinking of http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.04.18 01:40:52 hth 23:06:30 I tend to disregard some reverts ^^ 23:06:51 b_jonas: i distinctly recall reading in wikipedia yesterday that Sztálinváros was renamed fairly early, long before communism ended but after stalinism did 23:06:55 oerjan: anyway the joke is that interest rates are low 23:07:05 oerjan: possible 23:07:14 oerjan: Stalin fell out of favor earlier or something 23:07:34 shachaf: ah 23:08:04 The renamings cause some confusion when the older generation mentions the old street names and young people don't understand what they refer to. 23:08:29 he fell out of favor in the fifties. it took a bit longer to change the name. 23:08:48 Back in the 90s they handled it the sane way, by leaving the signs with the old street names up still readable, but crossed out. These days there's a new wave of more stupid renamings and they just change the signs overnight, which is much worse. 23:08:58 Plus, they name everything of Széchenyi, which is boring. 23:09:32 It's not that I don't like Széchenyi or anything, but if you name everything the same, that's bad. 23:09:43 Plus, I'd like something finally named of Erdős Pál. It's high time. 23:10:34 people would compete on how many cities separate you from the one named Erdős Pál. 23:10:47 boily: no, not cities. renaming towns is silly, they should stop that. 23:10:58 I'm talking about streets or institutions. 23:11:05 * oerjan swats boily -----### 23:12:01 * boily is swatted. ow. 23:12:06 Is there a variant on Kleene Algebra that deals with translation rather than recognition? 23:12:27 Huh, my computer didn't log me out of IRC when it was closed for a long period of time 23:12:44 And a ton of messages just came through xD 23:13:01 So anyway, if you live in Budapest for long enough, you'll eventually learn some of the more important old names. Népköztársaság újta == Andrássy út; November 7. tér == Nyugati tér; there's much more but I forget 23:13:22 There was something named about Lenin I think 23:13:29 and something with Október in the name 23:13:33 hppavilion[1]: in theory you can describe a transductor with a regex that distinguishes input and output letters 23:13:42 oerjan: Ok... 23:13:50 i don't know if that's common in practice 23:14:06 oerjan: But is there something nice and pretty? Perhaps one that is based on string substitutions rather than strings? 23:14:14 it's just something that seemed obvious to me when learning about transductors 23:14:55 Like, kleene algabra is +, x (for lack of a better symbol), and *, where + alternates strings, x concatenates them, and * repeats an arbitrary number of times 23:15:04 ah yes, the internet says Lenin körút == Erzsébet körút + Teréz körút, but that probably doesn't come up much because people just call it Nagykörút anwyay 23:15:36 hppavilion[1]: i'm not sure if substitutions fit or not 23:15:47 also Majakovszkij utca == Király utca; and I was wrong above, November 7. tér == Oktogon; Marx tér == Nyugati tér; that's confusing 23:15:57 But if we use trivial substitutions (that is, take a symbol and yield a different symbol) instead of trivial matches (take a symbol, fail if it doesn't equal to some internal constant symbol), then something probably happens 23:16:02 nugatti street 23:16:10 and, ah yes, I should've known this one: Felszabadulás tér == Ferenciek tere; it's probably the one I've heared the most 23:16:51 hm apparently Nugatti is norwegian 23:16:59 I think it might be the same- x takes two symbols and replaces each based on an expression, + takes two symbols and expressions and tries applying one then the otehr 23:17:00 *other 23:17:07 like what we have instead of Nutella, i guess 23:17:10 So all we need now is Trivial Substitution Notation 23:17:17 [a/b] works 23:17:37 There was also a Gorkij fasor, but that's not a big street 23:17:50 Or maybe [a→b] 23:18:00 Maybe drop the brackets 23:18:34 oerjan: And that provides a basis for an s/// notation that /isn't/ a complete hack! Yay! 23:20:36 Then there are 9 streets currently named of Damjanics within Budapest, although most of them are small, those all had a different name before 90 but I don't remember what 23:21:04 one was close to where I grew up but I don't remember the old name 23:21:23 hppavilion[1]: [a/b] is equivalent to [a/][/b] hth 23:21:43 oerjan: True, true 23:21:48 basically, you _fundamentally_ only need an input and an output alphabet that are distinguished 23:21:49 oerjan: Well, not quite 23:22:12 oerjan: Sweden has lots of streets named "Ny gatan", a really unimaginative name because "Ny" means new 23:22:14 assuming there are no backreferences. 23:22:32 b_jonas: not Nygatan? 23:22:44 oerjan: maybe "Nygatan" yes 23:22:52 yes, Nygatan 23:23:01 oerjan: No, it isn't; [a/] matches a then appends nothing to the output, [/b] then matches the null beginning of the ny remaining input (so nothing) and adds b to the end of the output 23:23:01 or possibly Nya Gatan 23:23:09 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:23:14 another popular one is Storgatan (big street) 23:23:21 oerjan: The input and output are completely independent 23:23:33 though mostly in smaller towns :P 23:23:56 oerjan, olsner: what surprised me is that most of the street names in Sweden were so short 23:24:01 hppavilion[1]: they're not independent because you cannot match both in sequence without doing the equivalent of [a/b] 23:24:02 we have short ones too, but also normal length ones 23:24:16 short? they're all normal length :P 23:24:23 the most popular street names in Hungary are probably Kossuth Lajos utca and Kossuth utca 23:24:35 oerjan: But if you allow the input and output to not both be exactly one symbol, then it doesn't work 23:24:37 although the quite short Fő utca is also very popular 23:24:38 oerjan: Which you did 23:26:22 the place i live in trondheim (although not the street i'm on) has heaps of streets named after fairy tale figures. and the place in my hometown where my father lives has many of the same names. 23:26:28 [a/b] != [a/][/b] because [a/][/b] matches an input that has an a (failing otherwise) and adds a b to the output (no matter what), whereas [a/b] matches an a and outputs a 'b' 23:26:54 Well... 23:26:54 I suppose that in this case it won't add a b if a fails, but in the general case they can't be equivalent 23:27:00 oerjan: interesting, I don't recall having such names here 23:27:19 and of course there are plenty of historical figures that also are used in almost every town, like Ibsen. 23:27:37 right 23:27:56 Hungarian historical figures make up at least half of the street names here 23:28:11 oerjan: Of course, this doesn't allow matching groups, which makes it effectively useless 23:28:29 including the ever popular Kossuth and Petőfi, the above mentioned Damjanics, but also lots of ones you've never heared about 23:28:50 but there are lots of streets not named of people 23:28:56 do you guys have many "Church Street" or equivalent? 23:29:23 at least we don't put the same street name twice in a town, usually. 23:29:41 boily: yes, there's at least one Templom tér yonder in 19 23:29:59 oerjan: come to Montréal! if two stretches of asphalt align, even if they aren't connected, they have the same name! 23:30:25 oerjan: yeah, that would make navigation SO MUCH less confusing 23:30:58 not having people tell you "meet at Corvin" and then either you have to ask for a clarification, or if you forget, guess from their age which Corvin they were likely thinking of 23:32:21 hppavilion[1]: i don't see how they're not equivalent. 23:32:27 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:32:30 oerjan: Let me think 23:32:53 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 23:33:21 my favourite version was "meet at Corvin, in the tram stop in the direction of Buda" (both directions of tram 6 eventually cross the Danube to go to Buda, and both Corvin are on the tram line 6) 23:34:15 Budapest is a Lost City. 23:34:45 boily: only when it's women who can't navigate and can't explain what they want or what they see or where to go try to tell you something 23:34:58 boily: real men can give unambiguous descriptions easily 23:35:17 and use a map, and not search for "Budafoki út" in Pest 23:35:23 boily: Kirkeveien/Kirkegata are reasonably common i think. it's even used in the norwegian version of monopoly. 23:35:51 b_jonas: you sound like you speak from experience... 23:36:21 oerjan: checking the map, it says there are lots of streets named "Templom" something in Budapest, not only the one in 19 I knew about 23:36:29 -!- jaboja has joined. 23:37:09 boily: I've been living here all my life, and still love the city, despite its faults 23:37:12 so yes 23:37:33 although if the government manages to ruin Városliget like they're planning then I'll be VERY upset 23:38:11 boily: real men can give unambiguous descriptions easily <-- they just can't ask for them? 23:39:03 maybe women are experts at making maps 23:39:07 oerjan: I can try to ask, yes. In the case when there is a small finite list of possibilities like "at Corvin, in the tram stop towards Buda" then definitely. 23:39:18 oerjan: but when it's crystal ball territory with no starting point, then no, I can't really ask 23:39:34 b_jonas: i'm just expanding your gender stereotypes hth 23:39:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:39:49 you know, it's like those newbies on IRC who ask like "my program doesn't work, and I didn't change anything" and you can't get anything specific from them 23:39:56 (rdococ got me a bit in the mood) 23:40:30 oerjan: would you say rdococ engendered the mood 23:40:53 oerjan: maps are a trouble too. I like the maps published by Topográf, because they're more readable than the more popular alternatives, but then they stopped making it (probably around the time people started using all the fancy digital touchscreen GPS stuff instead of paper maps) 23:40:56 moodococ. 23:41:05 so now there are no good enough maps of the town 23:41:36 * oerjan enswats shachaf -----### 23:41:46 I dunno how that works at your place 23:41:51 paper maps that is 23:42:05 I know it costs a lot to produce good ones and keep them up to date 23:42:07 but still, it's sad 23:42:11 i dunno i haven't used one in years 23:42:22 I wish they made a better one 23:42:45 last i looked for a place, i just used google maps. 23:42:58 although I do have to admit the Cartographia map (which is the most popular brand, and already was when Topográf was still in business) has improved, it's not as horrible as it used to be 23:43:31 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:43:32 I should get myself a new map 23:43:52 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FUMIGATING CHICKEN). 23:48:06 then suddenly the speaker says "let me point out that this is not anti-jew propaganda" and then I'm like "uhm... why is he saying that" <-- aka "I'm not a racist but ..." which reminds me of http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/zelda/?1460930400&d=-1 23:48:16 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 23:48:48 wait since when does mroman idle 23:49:10 i,i "I don't qualify my sentences, but..." 23:50:43 (btw that comic is not actually zelda. they're running two comics alternatively in the same spot and have confused themselves again.) 23:50:59 not that this probably matters unless you're swedish 23:51:26 (it's "lilla berlin") 23:54:20 of course the two comics have a lot in common, being extremely liberal-themed and made by swedish women 23:54:35 (from an american viewpoint, anyway) 23:54:54 (in sweden this is probably just the default :P) 23:57:27 . o O ( Ah am monologuing? -- Count Dookû, Darths & Droids ) 23:58:53 oerjan: we're still here 23:59:03 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:59:25 i don't think the number of listeners matters for monologuing 23:59:35 yeah 2016-04-19: 00:00:08 <\oren\> "Space hotels close as inflatable pod joined to International Space Station" 00:00:36 . o O ( why would they close the space hotels because of that ) 00:00:49 <\oren\> oerjan: that's exactly how I read it at first 00:01:19 <\oren\> it is apparently "space hotels are close to existing" 00:01:37 i realized that. otherwise i'd not have put it in . o O ( ) 00:03:29 fungot: i think maybe you need a bouncer 00:03:29 oerjan: tomorrow i'll add conversion when you try fnord) then 1 else n fact(n-1) n 2... why isn't it 00:04:51 @tell boily and the UN denies Macedonia? what a world we live in... <-- only under that name iiuc 00:04:51 Consider it noted. 00:09:09 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:11:03 -!- earendel has joined. 00:11:50 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:11:53 I had an idea that would make the world a slightly better place 00:12:09 For something the Unicode Consortium could do 00:12:44 It deals with the problem of them having to spend an hour or more per meeting talking about emoji 00:13:03 step 1: Form a subcommittee made exclusively of people who might actually have a stake in this (i.e. teenagers) 00:13:33 step 2: Once ever unicode cycle (however long that is), give them exactly 1 nybblesworth of free slots to add emoji to 00:13:57 (or maybe only 3 bitsworth) 00:14:16 hppavilion[1]: And yeah, you can calculate the nth digit of pi without having to calculate all the preceeding digits <-- only in base 2^n last i heard? 00:14:23 er, 2^i 00:15:09 I thought there was a decimal spigot algorithm too 00:15:22 if so that's new 00:15:41 step 3: Stop forcing some of the world's smartest linguists and computer scientists (and also the world's "smartest" computational linguists, I guess) to give a fuck about stupid little pictures that people send around far too much 00:15:54 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!). 00:16:13 (https://www.xkcd.com/114/) 00:19:02 "Borwein et al. (2004) have recently shown that pi has no Machin-type BBP arctangent formula that is not binary, although this does not rule out a completely different scheme for digit-extraction algorithms in other bases." 00:19:15 that's not quite so recent though 00:19:47 hppavilion[1]: they've done 1 00:20:10 coppro: ? 00:20:51 someone should just bite the bullet and create a smartphone with more emojis than will fit in unicode 00:21:02 oerjan: Yep xD 00:21:14 oerjan: If we count non-preset pictures, that already exists via apps 00:22:29 oerjan: The best part is that we only allocate 1 new block byte for these new emoji (unless there's already >1 bytesworth of unused space in existing emoji blocks), so we stop adding new emoji after a few years and everybody stfus 00:23:06 hppavilion[1]: i don't think that will work 00:23:43 oerjan: Why not? 00:24:12 because if there are sufficiently strong interests, any limitation _will_ be lifted. 00:24:19 oerjan: I mean they stfu about new emoji so that the only recognition the UC gets is coming from people who actually appreciate what they're doing, and /don't/ just want new emoji 00:24:22 oerjan: Ah 00:24:23 hppavilion[1]: was it you who made that ugly unhinted thin line vector font with custom format? if so, can you remind me of its current status ? 00:24:37 b_jonas: That may have been me 00:24:49 b_jonas: It's abandoned, and I'm trying to make a better format 00:25:18 hppavilion[1]: ok, if you have something you can show, tell us 00:25:26 b_jonas: Why? 00:25:37 dunno, just curious 00:25:41 b_jonas: Why bring this up now? 00:25:41 Ah 00:25:59 we were talking about #esoteric fonts 00:26:41 hppavilion[1]: emoji subcommittee exists 00:27:25 coppro: Oh, really? 00:29:54 "In 1996, Simon Plouffe derived an algorithm to extract the nth decimal digit of π (using base 10 math to extract a base 10 digit), and which can do so with an improved speed of O(n^3log(n)^3) time." 00:30:12 ok so there's something. 00:30:46 hppavilion[1]: yep 00:30:56 http://unicode.org/emoji/ 00:31:09 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:31:11 they meet weekly 00:34:28 Do fandoms have a concept of "Low Orbit Ion Canon"? <-- . o O ( i hope "Canon" is not a misspelling ) 00:34:48 oerjan: it's definitely canon hth 00:34:55 seems so 00:35:07 oerjan: It was not 00:35:35 oerjan: It was 100% a pun. The sentence does not make sense if it isn't a pun. 00:35:49 when i played c&c generals they had the particle cannon 00:36:49 hppavilion[1]: i can find no hits that aren't misspellings, alas 00:37:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Emergency exit). 00:38:02 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 00:38:51 -!- atehwa_ has changed nick to atehewa. 00:38:56 -!- atehewa has changed nick to atehwa. 00:41:47 `? oren's font 00:42:04 ​\oren\'s font is http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm 00:43:20 * oerjan is unsure whether that's intentional or not 00:43:39 oh wait 00:43:52 * oerjan swats himself -----\#\#\# 00:44:41 `? lifthrasiir's font 00:44:45 lifthrashiir's font is https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png 00:44:58 i'm going to go out on a limb and say that one isn't 00:45:20 `` sed -i 's/thrash/thras/' wisdom/lif*font 00:45:29 No output. 00:45:33 `? lifthrasiir's font 00:45:36 lifthrasiir's font is https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png 00:49:54 oerjan: ah, sorry 00:50:26 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:51:57 -!- acertain has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:56:33 -!- acertain has joined. 01:01:23 b_jonas: i'm not sure i'm the one who needs an apology there >:P 01:02:10 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:02:48 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 01:03:47 oerjan: sorry 01:04:38 -!- tromp has joined. 01:05:04 shachaf: i'm not sure you're the on... what am i saying, you always have something to apologize for. 01:05:22 ouch 01:05:41 Is there a better font compiler for X than the included software? (If not I could write one, if I have proper documentation of the format) 01:06:00 * oerjan hopes shachaf doesn't think i'm serious. 01:06:05 *he's 01:08:10 `? gamemanj 01:08:11 gamemanj? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:08:20 `learn gamemanj is undocumented. 01:08:25 Learned 'gamemanj': gamemanj is undocumented. 01:09:01 * oerjan cackles moderately naughtily 01:18:08 -!- centrinia has joined. 01:28:38 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:29:43 `` sed -i 's/evil/evil cackling/' wisdom/oerjan 01:29:47 No output. 01:33:40 `? oerjan 01:33:41 Your infamous mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. 01:33:45 `before 01:33:52 wisdom/oerjan//Your infamous mysterious evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. 01:34:04 adjective overload 01:38:40 boinot sure what good it'll do but I can build wisdom.pdf again... 01:38:55 huh 01:39:09 boily: not sure what good it'll do but I can build wisdom.pdf again... 01:39:20 failed tab completion, plus lag 01:40:40 https://twitter.com/unicode/status/722133439726505984 01:40:42 okay. 01:41:32 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 01:46:10 failed tab completion, plus lag <-- just claim it was a portmanteau duh 01:47:09 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:47:16 oerjan: itay be too late for that 01:50:17 `? itay 01:50:19 itay? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:50:52 `learn Itay is Christmas in Italy. 01:50:57 Learned 'itay': Itay is Christmas in Italy. 01:52:21 indeed that would be too late 01:54:08 `quote long long 01:54:09 378) drinks should come in long long pipes that drip liquid at varying speeds, and you shouldn't just casually taste to them, you should really try to understand what the artist (the canposer?) was trying to convey when making the drink olsner: well you know i'm a genius. anyway i like how food works tho, because it has both th 01:55:24 that is indeed a long long quote 01:55:43 -!- tromp has joined. 01:56:04 `? kallisti 01:56:06 kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity. 01:56:15 `quote kallisti 01:56:17 635) man, I love pseudo-random decision making kallisti: Man, I base most of my life on pseudo-random decision making. i usually just ask my dick and i then rarely even bother to listen \ 667) kallisti: by ordered multiset did you mean: list?????? 01:59:52 `quote VMS 01:59:54 598) VMS Mosaic? I hope that's not Mosaic ported to VMS. Hmm. It's Mosaic ported to VMS. 02:00:12 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:00:21 `? solain 02:00:23 solain? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 02:02:11 -!- rottytooth has joined. 02:02:48 -!- rottytooth has quit (Client Quit). 02:04:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:05:14 -!- rottytooth has joined. 02:09:21 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:09:52 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:32:48 `quote kallisti 02:32:49 632) interestingly enough it takes about as much time for a person to produce cfunge as it does to create a baby. \ 635) man, I love pseudo-random decision making kallisti: Man, I base most of my life on pseudo-random decision making. i usually just ask my dick and i then rarely even bother to listen \ 667 02:33:36 thought so. 02:34:06 https://i.gyazo.com/920346fb9b2eda5ae63a4cd426a91c7e.png 02:35:12 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:36:46 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:39:06 A rose by any other namespace? 02:39:25 Smells just as sweet :) 02:42:33 Though I guess it looks a bit more like a tulip, so perhaps not 02:43:03 What does it do? 02:50:46 It takes in a file as Daoyu code, ignoring whitespace and treating invalid characters as spots to preserve data at, and generates Daoyu code which can construct that data 02:51:50 It also has an option to convert plaintext directly to Daoyu hexadecimal, and another to output to a specified file 02:53:25 "Yes. PHP is well know for performing some of the most incredible and least likely fuck-ups, like fucking up the binding of the ternary operator (a ? b : c) or fucking up equality between values of the same type. But even it didn't, as far as I know, manage to fuck up the assignment expression (aside from the relatively common fuck-up of having one in the first place)" 03:02:03 -!- I has joined. 03:02:23 -!- I has changed nick to at. 03:02:52 -!- at has changed nick to Guest63419. 03:02:59 -!- Guest63419 has changed nick to atslash. 03:19:03 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:28:47 -!- rottytooth has quit. 03:35:44 -!- tromp has joined. 03:40:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:00:18 -!- ^v has joined. 04:12:57 -!- XorSwap has joined. 04:13:10 Sgeo_: What did they do with the ternary operator? 04:14:24 I agree there is a lot of wrong thing with PHP although having assignment expression is not wrong in my opinion 04:14:41 FreeFull, http://phpsadness.com/sad/30 04:15:36 Sgeo_: ): 04:16:21 I think you mean ); 04:21:39 ;,,( 04:34:08 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:37:21 -!- tromp has joined. 04:41:27 -!- nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:41:49 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:03:31 -!- tromp has joined. 05:09:41 -!- nisstyre has joined. 05:14:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:16:59 -!- variable has joined. 05:17:00 -!- tromp has joined. 05:25:08 -!- bb010g has joined. 05:29:33 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:43:17 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:48:39 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:10:32 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:21:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:21:59 -!- Thassa has joined. 06:24:53 -!- Thassa has quit (Client Quit). 06:48:21 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 06:53:27 -!- tromp has joined. 06:58:00 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:16:52 -!- rdococ has joined. 07:43:49 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:54:58 -!- tromp has joined. 07:59:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:28:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:53:51 -!- picobit has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 09:00:27 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:00:35 -!- quintopia has joined. 09:22:27 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 09:22:40 Imagine a universe where the Visibility Problem was undecidable... 09:30:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:33:35 -!- staffehn_ has joined. 09:34:10 -!- staffehn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:45:05 -!- tromp has joined. 09:49:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:55:52 -!- Alcest has joined. 11:06:51 -!- boily has joined. 11:12:59 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 11:13:28 -!- lleu has joined. 11:14:55 @massages-loud 11:14:55 oerjan said 11h 10m 3s ago: and the UN denies Macedonia? what a world we live in... <-- only under that name iiuc 11:32:24 fungot: o hai. nostril? 11:32:24 boily: what a shame, otherwise i won't have one, but i'm aware i left out ( except for things like addition ( that's ( 1000)) 11:32:40 fungot: you left out a thousand nostrils? 11:32:41 boily: should have guessed :) good night, offby1" must resist associations. 11:33:06 @tell fizzie your bot, it is disturbing hth 11:33:06 Consider it noted. 12:07:13 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:08:40 -!- gamemanj has joined. 12:09:17 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 12:09:54 boily: There was an expected (but time unpredictable) interruption in service caused by those who believe that a router can spontaniously combust if not watched. 12:11:02 Review of logs suggests that you are attempting to "suggest" PRing a repository. 12:11:55 I will have you know that, to the best I can recall, only one of my pull requests has ever succeeded. It would be extremely wise for you not to ask for my help. 12:12:21 On the other hand, that may be the point - some form of intentional sabotage. 12:12:42 The current communications process will now end, as I have a schedule to keep track of. 12:12:45 -!- gamemanj has quit (Client Quit). 12:13:35 @tell gamemanj PRs were mentioned. I was thinking of giving you full pull-push-whatever permissions to the repo :D 12:13:35 Consider it noted. 12:15:17 @tell gamemanj also, please be assured that *everything* can spontaneously combust if sufficiently unwatched hth 12:15:18 Consider it noted. 12:16:01 @tell gamemanj (especially eggs. prismatic explosive omelette. don't ask.) 12:16:01 Consider it noted. 12:16:53 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CYCLOHEXYLACETONE CHICKEN). 12:45:20 -!- I has joined. 12:45:43 -!- I has changed nick to Guest47043. 12:46:08 -!- Guest47043 has changed nick to at. 12:46:37 -!- at has changed nick to Guest41549. 12:47:36 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:54:32 -!- tromp has joined. 13:05:20 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:14:50 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:29:29 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:05:50 -!- tromp has joined. 14:10:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:23:51 -!- j-bot has joined. 14:34:15 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:40:39 -!- Guest72001 has joined. 14:48:10 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:55:35 -!- iconmaster_ has joined. 15:11:53 -!- Guest41549 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:12:12 -!- astslash has joined. 15:21:35 -!- p34k has joined. 15:43:28 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:05:59 -!- tromp has joined. 16:11:14 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:20:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 16:20:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:20:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 16:20:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:28:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:31:26 -!- astslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 16:58:26 -!- Reece` has joined. 17:03:01 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:04:22 -!- spiette has joined. 17:12:14 -!- Kaynato has joined. 17:24:26 -!- picobit has joined. 17:34:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 17:39:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 17:57:35 hah. 17:57:39 `wisdom 17:58:14 urbandictionary/Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database. 18:02:44 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:03:20 -!- greenlock has joined. 18:05:23 So I was learning myself many Haskells, but haven't quite finished yet. 18:06:17 I don't really understand how one would go about creating an application in the traditional sense with it. 18:11:12 `cd 18:11:25 Hm. 18:11:28 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found 18:11:40 Wot. 18:11:47 `ls 18:11:53 ​:-( \ (* \ 99 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ echo-p \ emoticons \ equations \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ grph \ hw \ ibin \ ifconfig_out \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ply-3.8.tar.gz \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ secret.txt \ share \ src \ t 18:12:53 `help learn 18:12:53 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 18:15:55 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 18:16:43 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:25:12 -!- greenlock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:40:10 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:59:09 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:07:03 -!- mihow has joined. 19:07:03 wtf is bdsmreclist 19:07:24 -!- mihow has quit (Client Quit). 19:08:04 -!- tromp has joined. 19:08:11 -!- earendel has joined. 19:09:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:11:20 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:12:59 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 19:13:55 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:15:11 `? bdsmreclist 19:15:37 ​* oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits 19:33:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:39:09 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 19:39:35 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:41:04 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 19:50:13 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:50:40 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:51:07 -!- heroux has joined. 19:51:22 irc.nutecnet.com.br 19:52:06 pardon. this isN't meant to be pasted here 19:52:22 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 19:52:53 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:52:57 `fireflist 19:55:15 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:55:42 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:58:50 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:59:14 no fireflist :< 20:01:02 -!- centrinia has joined. 20:01:15 -!- Guest72001 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 20:01:19 -!- Kaynato has joined. 20:02:15 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 20:03:27 -!- I has joined. 20:03:48 -!- I has changed nick to Guest42812. 20:07:16 quien habla español 20:07:39 españoles 20:10:59 jajaja 20:22:54 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:28:03 I am not Spanish and most people on here probably do not know the Spanish. This is not the Spanish IRC. This is the English IRC. 20:28:26 -!- nycs has joined. 20:30:04 -!- Guest42812 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:32:26 I speak spanish 20:32:40 Yes I know that 20:32:50 Most people whose username includes "canaima" does. 20:34:14 I tried to write a program to make error diffusion but seem to be working improperly do you know what is wrong please? 20:34:23 yo hablo español 20:35:27 This is not the Spanish IRC; this is mainly the English IRC. 20:40:16 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:40:59 :'( 20:46:33 zzo38: THE english IRC? 20:46:40 zzo38: Use google translate 20:46:50 I have, for some reason, decided to make a set of icons 20:48:00 `relcome 20:48:06 (for the link) 20:48:15 ​Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 20:48:36 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:48:56 Dammit 20:49:02 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 20:49:26 `bienvenido hth 20:49:28 hth: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.) 20:49:36 shachaf: Ty 20:50:11 hppavilion[1]: you're `welcome 20:50:26 `worship 20:50:27 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: worship: not found 20:50:36 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:56:00 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 21:04:19 quien podra hablar español? 21:05:20 Aún nadie. 21:05:45 Marcela_Gandara: Este es un IRC para los programadores. Usted está buscando un canal diferente, a menos que le sucede a ser un programador con un interés en el surrealismo 21:05:48 que mal 21:06:59 -!- `^_^ has joined. 21:07:41 -!- nycs has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:08:21 -!- `^_^ has quit (Client Quit). 21:08:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:08:43 -!- gamemanj has joined. 21:08:57 -!- tromp has joined. 21:09:06 ...I see the amount of cities is expanding? 21:09:19 que es surrealismo? 21:09:42 What a surreal question 21:09:57 Surreal is a surreal word. 21:10:10 "also, please be assured that *everything* can spontaneously combust if sufficiently unwatched hth" 21:10:15 ^ boily 21:10:18 ... 21:10:39 Someone should give boily a pet rock 21:11:01 Let's see if that spontaneously combusts. 21:11:28 No, wait, I already know that someone will find a flaw in that, even though magic isn't real. 21:11:44 Someone give boily a non-pet rock. 21:11:54 Explicitly stated not to be a pet. 21:12:02 Isn't that most rocks? 21:12:12 Yes, oddly enough. 21:12:29 The point being that it won 21:12:33 -!- I has joined. 21:12:38 *won't combust if sufficently unwatched. 21:12:53 -!- I has changed nick to Guest81444. 21:13:02 There is no status of "sufficiently unwatched" in which it, itself, will spontaneously combust. 21:13:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:14:30 Now, in theory, you could enclose it in a box and call it "Schrodinger's Rock" and then say that until you open the box, the rock is combusted and not combusted. A sensible person would point out the big amount of noise that would make. A sensible debater would then point out that being able to hear the noise counts as "sufficiently unwatched". 21:14:37 Flip. I just disproved my own point. 21:15:44 However, it does have a productive use, in that spontaneous combustion generally makes a noise, which means that the required state of "sufficiently unwatched" can never be achieved. 21:17:02 What will happen with outer space? 21:17:10 I have no idea. Go ask boily. 21:17:37 Counterpoint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_Combustion_%28band%29 21:18:35 On the next episode of "gamemanj is insane": gamemanj runs a program, and then manually types out it's output because transforming the source into a workable format is downright impossible, and also not fun. This has been your host, gamemanj, and goodnight! *disappears in a puff of smoke* 21:19:52 (For the episode after: CWEB and you : sanity in a post-TeX programming world) 21:21:30 zgrep: I added some lines to BookOfEso 21:22:06 * zgrep wonders what that is 21:23:09 (Actually, come to think of it, maybe TeX should be on esolangs. *a minute later* Actually, I just did a check. zzo38 implemented underload in TeX, but the link doesn't work? Switching to Gopher protocol...) 21:23:21 (...starting netcat...) 21:23:37 -!- Guest81444 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 21:23:37 lynx knows gopher 21:23:48 zgrep: It's a command 21:23:54 zgrep: In HackEgo 21:24:06 zgrep: We created it around the same time as tomfoolery IIRC 21:24:11 `BookOfEso 21:24:12 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: BookOfEso: not found 21:24:15 zgrep: Lowercase 21:24:21 `bookofeso 21:24:23 1:2/And #esoteric was without denizens, and empty; and the order was on the face of the PDP-8. And the software of fungot moved upon the face of the scrollback. 21:24:32 NOOO 21:24:39 -!- nycs has joined. 21:24:41 at least fungot was ok though 21:24:41 gamemanj: i think it has tail-call elimination. it says sth about some server got hacked bla bla xx 21:24:48 `url bin/bookofeso 21:24:50 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/bookofeso 21:24:59 zgrep: You could just cat it... 21:24:59 Wait a sec. Why didn't fungot respond to HackEgo? 21:24:59 gamemanj: they usually go hand in hand. 21:25:09 gamemanj: We have anti-botloop 21:25:20 s/oo/o/ 21:25:29 hppavilion[1]: But what if it doesn't fit in an irc line. 21:25:33 botlop? 21:25:37 zgrep: It's short 21:25:48 zgrep: It's really just `wisdom for a different directory 21:25:51 hppavilion[1]: Well, I had a lack of foresight into this knowledge. 21:25:59 zgrep: True 21:26:02 The reason the link doesn't work may be the DNS is not yet updated. 21:26:03 prooftechnique: Yes, botlop 21:26:10 hppavilion[1]: that's unfortunate, I really wanted to train fungot to say `` ./continue_loop 21:26:10 gamemanj: not slow for me i guess.... or even worse, to be sure that i 21:26:47 `? botlop 21:26:49 botlops are the core of botsentiences. Sapience is scheduled for the next release. 21:26:51 gamemanj: It used to be (on IRC in general, not just here) that if you had multiple bots on one channel (which is trashy in some peoples' eyes, but #esoteric actually doesn't work without it), you could make them trigger each other 21:27:02 How would a bot be sapient? 21:27:11 Try replacing the domain name with 24.207.48.196 for now 21:27:11 Servers are virtually identical, so... 21:27:14 I consider both sapience, sentience and botloops good things. 21:27:15 `?sapient 21:27:16 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?sapient: not found 21:27:22 `? sapient 21:27:23 sapient? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:27:27 :( 21:27:41 Unless sapience for bots is based on software analysis 21:27:53 Basically, a software that can hash software and compare it with itself 21:28:08 zzo38: Your domain is not responding to: echo "\r" | nc zzo38computer.org 70 21:28:19 (a "sapient quine" (though these quines are allowed I/O to make it possible)) 21:28:34 `? sentient 21:28:36 sentient? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:28:39 `? sentience 21:28:40 sentience? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:28:59 Wait, would a sapient quine technically be sapient? 21:29:03 `learn sentience is the primary goal of wisdom. wisdom is the primary goal of sentience. 21:29:09 Learned 'sentience': sentience is the primary goal of wisdom. wisdom is the primary goal of sentience. 21:29:15 In the eyes of biologists, at least? 21:29:35 zgrep: I'm systematically going through the lines of the SAB and making them #esoterican 21:29:46 "SAB"? 21:30:05 And, somehow, I missed the IP address from zzo38 above. zgrep, zzo38... 21:30:09 gamemanj: the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. It's a translation of the bible that has annotations pointing out contradictions and other bull 21:30:11 GTG 21:30:21 Ooooh, sounds fun! 21:30:36 zzo38: Ok, so the IP address... asks me to use the Gopher service. 21:30:46 :D 21:31:02 gamemanj: The root page does. If you access a different file then it won't. 21:31:03 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:31:16 zzo38: Oh, and it says "This is still in the process of being recovered." 21:31:19 * zgrep wonders what IP address this is 21:31:29 The one zzo pointed out above. 21:31:33 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 21:32:00 gamemanj: Yes it is, although the HTTP link to the Underload implementation in TeX will still work if you replace the domain name with the IP address. 21:32:02 ok, so accessing the underload-in-tex file didn't work via Gopher. 21:32:12 Ah, zzo38's website? 21:32:16 Ah, so HTTP does work 21:32:41 Gopher works too, it is just that the gopher server is still in the process of being recovered (as it says), so it is not yet complete. 21:32:56 * zgrep 'd use gopher, but zgrep is too lazy 21:33:22 zgrep: "nc 24.207.48.196 70", press enter, press ctrl-v, press enter, press enter again. 21:33:40 I like Gopher. It's simple. 21:34:20 (It's a little lacking in the visual department, though. If a monospaced font was mandated, then at least there would be a workaround... 21:34:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:35:01 It is recommended to always use a monospace font for Gopher for maximum compatibility. 21:35:38 (It is also recommended to use a monospace font when accessing .txt files from any protocol; this isn't limited to Gopher) 21:36:32 * gamemanj reads more on Gopher, and finds "Gopher+" 21:36:53 seems like it's not supported 21:38:09 I'm a bit confused that the link has to contain the document type. 21:38:53 Could cause some confusion if something changes content type. Like if "/nethack" stopped being a type '1' and started being a type '8', both of which make sense for the link. 21:39:19 Gopher+ is sometimes used but not all clients and/or servers implement it. Today it is often not used 21:39:32 hang on... wait a sec, that doesn't even make sense. links need selectors, but what kind of selector would type '8' use if it's just a pointer to a telnet session... 21:39:34 gamemanj: Yes, although the port number would likely be different too in such a case 21:40:48 There is no selector of course, although possibly some might make it the initial data to send to the server 21:41:07 -!- atrapado has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:41:11 (I don't know if any servers or clients use this, but probably it would not be used) 21:41:23 Huh. So, changing my example, what if someone made a resource of type "plain text" '0', it got linked to, and it was changed to a type 'h' (HTML)? 21:41:58 gamemanj: The link can be updated, although you can load it as type 0 anyways if you want to view the source 21:42:29 Yes, assuming the person running the server with the link updates their links :) 21:42:41 Anyways a gopher client might not necessarily support HTML; types 0 and 1 and 7 should always be implemented at least though. 21:43:07 Would be nice to have type 'i' :) 21:43:36 I however find it unlikely that they will replace it with HTML. Gopher resources are generally supposed to be plain text anyways. 21:43:47 Type 'i' is used for a menu item that does not link to anything. 21:43:59 ...that being the point :) 21:44:31 (If a domain name and/or port number and/or selector are specified, they should be ignored.) 21:44:43 O, yes, I forgot. The types supported should be at least: 0 1 7 i 21:45:58 I do not recommend supporting HTML in a gopher client unless it is also a web browser in which case it probably should support HTML. 21:46:15 Why would a web browser need to support HTML? 21:46:26 Because it is used for webpages 21:46:42 ...your point being? :) 21:47:28 (Just joking. Yes, a web-browser should probably support HTML.) 21:47:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:50:28 The convention to link to a protocol that is not Gopher, CSO/PH, or Telnet, is to use a link of type 'h' to a selector starting with "URL:" followed by the URL, and that if the server receives a request for such a selector, to return a HTML document that links and redirects to that URL. 21:53:09 ah, the days when "Hosts that have a CR-LF TAB or NUL in their name get what they deserve." was an acceptable thing to write in documentation 21:53:28 (The client will not necessarily access that HTML document; it may understand the convention and just access the URL directly. If it does, there probably ought to be a feature in the clientto disable that feature if you do not want it.) 21:55:27 -!- Kaynato has joined. 21:56:04 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:08:16 game of life - found D8-symmetric garden-of-eden, 11x11, 93 orphan size, 65 on-cells. worse then current record. 22:09:11 "garden of eden"? 22:10:56 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:11:35 gamemanj: http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Garden_of_Eden 22:13:13 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:17:03 Good news, zzo38. I rigged up a simple Gopher client in Lua. Bad news, the textfiles link is by DNS. 22:20:18 I've decided I will no longer be looking at files on zzo38's server due to the contents of a certain downright scary folder. 22:20:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:22:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:22:41 When the DNS is fixed then it can be accessed. 22:23:29 Oh, I can access it, just I have to use netcat. But I was silly enough to... list the contents of a folder whose first letter was 'a' and looked really scary when the contents were listed. 22:23:48 coppro: I have been doing some consideration regarding BCT in Daoyu, but there is a major problem of implementation, being the "1" command in BCT, 22:23:52 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!). 22:25:28 Since I do not think I have a way to trivially "keep track" of the position of the last open "bit" to copy to. As well, there was a problem with "keeping track of when to allocate more memory" but I think this can be doable 22:25:48 oh christ 22:25:57 i think i might have to install pulseaudio to get ksp to work 22:26:24 *drama* 22:26:38 * gamemanj mumbles something about why can't they use portaudio like sensible people 22:32:29 How is → defined in terms of logical NOR? 22:32:34 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 22:34:03 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:34:14 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 22:34:44 -!- jaboja has joined. 22:36:37 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 22:37:38 -!- nycs has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:38:57 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:39:02 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 22:44:58 -!- Caesura has joined. 22:48:03 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:48:12 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:52:38 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:57:28 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 23:04:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:12:05 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:21:21 -!- jaboja has joined. 23:29:54 -!- astslash has joined. 23:34:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:39:03 -!- astslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:47:11 -!- nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:51:39 @tell boily @tell gamemanj also, please be assured that *everything* can spontaneously combust if sufficiently unwatched hth <-- sounds like a theory for how the big bang happened 23:51:39 Consider it noted. 23:58:38 `` ls -l wisdom/bdsmreclist 23:58:46 ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 87 Dec 9 04:13 wisdom/bdsmreclist 23:58:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:58:58 `cat bdsmreclist 23:58:59 YOU are out of order. 23:59:09 What. 23:59:14 `culprits bdsmreclist 23:59:17 ``bdsmreclist 23:59:26 Whoops 23:59:36 what now 23:59:37 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `bdsmreclist: not found 23:59:40 oerjan elliott Phantom_Hoover oerjan Phantom_Hoover Phantom_Hoover Phantom_Hoover 23:59:51 `culprits wisdom/bdsmreclist 23:59:57 int-e ais523 oerjan elliott oerjan 2016-04-20: 00:00:10 `? bdsmreclist 00:00:12 ​* oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits 00:00:31 bdsmreclist shouldn't be in wisdom/ 00:00:42 i am approximately as confused as anyone else, although it's traditional 00:01:02 `ls 00:01:03 ​:-( \ (* \ 99 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ echo-p \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ grph \ hw \ ibin \ ifconfig_out \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ply-3.8.tar.gz \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ secret.txt \ shar 00:01:22 If p -> q is p^q in fuzzy logic 00:01:22 `head index.html 00:01:24 Google