< 1460764805 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2015/12/04/clang-with-microsoft-codegen-in-vs-2015-update-1/
< 1460764845 0 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-51-51.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460764854 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I know C++ templates and sfinae are _designed_ at language feature level to make it impossible to give sane diagnostics, but msvc gives horrible error messages even in simple cases, not only in the complicated template stuff.
< 1460764858 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each notation consists of a list of key-value pairs. Each key and each value is a notation. Every notation has an ordinal number as its value.
< 1460764920 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There can only be finitely many key-value pairs. The keys must be arranged in descending order by ordinal value.
< 1460764940 0 :hppavilion[wc]!4a72574d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.114.87.77 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1460764970 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notations also have an ordering; this ordering is different from the order of the ordinal numbers they describe.
< 1460764978 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: tbh I'm *super* excited for modules
< 1460765076 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, msvc is so bad that even if the code you write will eventually be compiled only with msvc, it's worth to port some of it to be portable to non-msvc just to get sane error messages when developing it.
< 1460765099 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ordering of two notations is calculated as follows. If one notation is empty and the other is not, the non-empty one is later. Otherwise, look at their greatest keys (by ordinal value). If one key is greater, then its notation is later.
< 1460765102 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done that with template code.
< 1460765116 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the keys are equal, look at the corresponding values (again, by ordinal value). If one value is greater, then that notation is later.
< 1460765126 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, then you get cases when your code is correct and gcc and clang both know that, but msvc can't compile it because it doesn't understand the c++ standard.
< 1460765127 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, discard the top key-value pair of each notation and compare the results.
< 1460765150 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But even then, gcc or clang as tools help you figure out how to fix it.
< 1460765227 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The definition of the function from notations to ordinal numbers is: The ordinal value of a notation is the smallest ordinal number which is greater than all of the values in the key-value pairs, and also greater than the ordinal value of any earlier notation.
< 1460765394 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the big question is: are all notations well-defined?
< 1460765439 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460765449 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, are all notations well-defined?
< 1460765480 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Kengyele, kantárja / a kádár munkája
< 1460765645 0 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460765660 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460765880 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: IEUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHGHGHGLGHRHGLGHRLGHRLGLGLGLGLGLLFLBLFLBLFLBLBLBLBLBLFLFLFLBLBLBLBL!
< 1460765915 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: i don't think it's well-defined. it seems like key = 0, value = a must be at least a for any ordinal, so there's nothing left for other notations.
< 1460765927 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460765940 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you can't get omega using only key = 0.
< 1460765950 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: is the topic the most recent wisdom?
< 1460765955 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still says 2015 on the title page
< 1460765966 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, the function f(x) = {0: x} doesn't have omega in its range.
< 1460765988 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that mess.
< 1460765992 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FINE
< 1460766007 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome oerjan
< 1460766017 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
< 1460766046 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom
< 1460766047 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I think so. I haven't updatitled, only contents.
< 1460766048 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdome/The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom.
< 1460766053 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom
< 1460766055 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :egobot/EgoBot is my arch-nemesis.
< 1460766057 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you said the ordering was different.
< 1460766127 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: WAT, and here i thought this place was about alchemy and stuff
< 1460766325 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, this place is about kitten typesetting
< 1460766431 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really alchemy, except as it applies to typesetting.
< 1460766448 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is surprisingly common.
< 1460766461 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ginorst # wut?
< 1460766462 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ginorst # wut?? ¯\(°_o)/¯
< 1460766466 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ginorst
< 1460766467 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ginorst is eht aillpr fo dgoo iikw aaeegmmnnt.
< 1460766477 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :storing is the pillar of goot wiki management???
< 1460766495 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :st\t wtd wt
< 1460766524 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: almost
< 1460766550 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wanted to give a hint in the last message, but then realized something...
< 1460766579 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strigno? goirnst?
< 1460766630 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :rty adeehrr
< 1460766638 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kiwi?
< 1460766749 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, ahtt asw cceorrt
< 1460766854 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it with fungot today
< 1460766869 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh oerjan's experimenting with some sort of encryption?
< 1460766873 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rosting? trisong? gnosirt? norsigt?
< 1460766889 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1460766892 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :snorting!
< 1460766907 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thint-e.
< 1460766909 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: snorting!
< 1460766915 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's wrong
< 1460766942 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION astw biloy ###-----
< 1460766950 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*asstw
< 1460766978 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :dhnt
< 1460767010 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ehy :P
< 1460767014 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :aacfhhs: aer ouy ersu?
< 1460767015 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently there's only Sorting and Storing
< 1460767034 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already suggested storing, therefore it's sorting.
< 1460767041 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Tsing
< 1460767049 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Sting
< 1460767050 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: is Hari a person, or a concept?
< 1460767052 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hari
< 1460767058 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: probably Sting.
< 1460767059 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hari wears an identical suit every day. Or the same suit? The latter glitch would be a sign of adjustments on the Matrix.
< 1460767188 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460767209 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So here's a rather interesting idea
< 1460767240 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most type theories (and, by extension, good type systems) are based on Formal Logic and use logical proofs to engineer new functions
< 1460767254 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavellon[42]! you are wisdomupdated.
< 1460767267 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what happens if we throw logic and functions out the window?
< 1460767275 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of logic, we use geometry
< 1460767287 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And instead of functions we use, I dunno, constructions?
< 1460767313 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you've crossed some line there.
< 1460767322 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think I have
< 1460767323 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: in the first line imo
< 1460767366 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: your first error is in assuming that throwing random stuff together is sufficient to be "interesting".
< 1460767369 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is guilty of four-plus-pi-i-degree linecrossing
< 1460767382 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I was thinking about it on my walk home and it seemed interesting
< 1460767406 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I tried to figure it out, but I was walking and thus unable to visualize it concretely
< 1460767409 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, geometry is the ancient logical subject
< 1460767424 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, and?
< 1460767442 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I was getting at, really, is that geometry is all about crossing lines
< 1460767450 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, it uses logic, but it's a rather different logic IME
< 1460767454 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Aaaaaaah.
< 1460767526 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: I tried to figure it out, but I was walking and thus unable to visualize it concretely <-- the trick is to find a nearby beach with sand to draw in. and watch out for romans.
< 1460767529 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, oerjan has a point
< 1460767545 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I feel like I should get that reference
< 1460767549 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Yes, he does
< 1460767559 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: But I think this actually is interesting
< 1460767565 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is going to let this discussion run in circles... and then move on to three dimensions.
< 1460767584 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:11 <@DarwinElf> shachaf, Warrigal, poll: best spiritual site? (mine in the topic, and the two it's influenced by and that are now probably still offline, aren't the easiest for most people, so we could list others like we used to)
< 1460767603 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: well it's pretty old hth
< 1460767612 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: do you have any good ones for the other #esoteric
< 1460767613 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though further thought led me to realize that you need something to take the place of functions. Or just functions)
< 1460767621 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett didn't know any
< 1460767681 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh perhaps the discussion could also spiral out of control or move off a tangent...
< 1460767701 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are there so many geometric idioms...
< 1460767703 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Is there some glaring obvious reason a geometric type theory wouldn't work that I'm missing?
< 1460767714 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: i don't know.
< 1460767719 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think "tangent" was a thing before geometry and they both use the same thing
< 1460767756 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat
< 1460767766 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :tangent is part of geometry
< 1460767836 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, but it may have predated geometry
< 1460767850 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is Jander?
< 1460767855 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: And the word may have been an already-existing word adopted by geometers (in its english sense)
< 1460767857 0 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460767886 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: usually you should first have an idea of a mathematical object, then give it a name... you seem to be turning this process upside down, but it doesn't really work: "geometric type theory" has no inherent meaning.
< 1460767901 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: True, true
< 1460767901 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ♪ DING ♪ PDF update!
< 1460767929 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pbflist
< 1460767930 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas
< 1460767934 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: tangent is latin, and geometry is greek, so the latter is older hth
< 1460767940 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Ah, yes
< 1460767958 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :this channel seems to be unionized
< 1460767959 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(spot the error in this reasoning)
< 1460767973 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: we're very electrically neutral indeed
< 1460767996 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: are you positive?
< 1460767999 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs
< 1460768000 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: My point with it is that you have scalar types Circle and Line
< 1460768002 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: which Jander
< 1460768046 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? jander
< 1460768047 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jander was murdered, or deactivated permanently, depending on which side you ask.
< 1460768056 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ this one here Jander.
< 1460768080 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Circle, Line, and Point
< 1460768096 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: oh. someone's been adding scifi references to the wisdom. that one is asimov. come to think of it, Hari may be too.
< 1460768112 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the Matrix is confusing in that context...
< 1460768123 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`culprits wisdom/jander
< 1460768128 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas b_jonas
< 1460768138 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonasimov.
< 1460768142 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: And compound types called a Plot (which is like a labeled list or named tuple; not quite a dictionary because the "labels" are just compile-time macros)
< 1460768169 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe something other than a Plot, but you get the point- a way of organizing constructions into nice neat groups
< 1460768174 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, Jander was a robot. i've only read plot synopses.
< 1460768203 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: And... hm... I seem to have done something wrong
< 1460768240 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: My point at a high-level is "Type theory can be done with logical proof, so why not other proofs?"
< 1460768276 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The naive approach is just to include the primitives as types and have functions matching the postulates, but I feel like there's another, more interesting way to do it
< 1460768385 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: the proofs of geometry include logic, and on top they have mathematical objects that are being talked about. i think that kind of thing may generally lead to dependent types...
< 1460768403 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, that might be it.
< 1460768416 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :without dependent types, the logic only talk about the propositions themselves
< 1460768420 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: But I'm going for the ruler-and-compass constructive proofs
< 1460768421 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*logics
< 1460768432 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Basically, I want to ruler-and-compass type theory
< 1460768478 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A type would be a series of circle constructions and line constructions, given an initial set of known points
< 1460768689 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :Quite puzzling | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Oslo (not Christiania)
< 1460768690 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. I suppose a type is something you can construct with a static series of steps and some points satisfying certain predicates
< 1460768704 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i felt nationally obligated hth
< 1460768731 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR it is a predicate type...
< 1460768755 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_axioms sets out a modern axiomatic framework for euclidean geometry
< 1460768759 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably a useful start
< 1460768770 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Thank you
< 1460768775 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey oerjan
< 1460768795 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :phellover
< 1460768802 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you prove stuff like the impossibility of the trisection with hilbert's axioms
< 1460768846 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: probably?
< 1460768857 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Are hilbert's axioms equivalent to euclid's axioms?
< 1460768864 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like i've looked at the axioms in detail
< 1460768892 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you probably can, i was wondering if maybe you needed extra stuff to get all the necessary galois theory
< 1460768892 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: hilbert's axioms are basically filling in the loopholes because the ancient greeks weren't rigorous _enough_
< 1460768905 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but otherwise, should be.
< 1460768927 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still don't really understand what the point of axiom 4 of euclid is
< 1460768937 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: How do you prove whether a triangle is isosceles? Is there some way to reduce it to the intersection or non-intersection of two lines?
< 1460768966 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can prove that two of its vertices lie on a circle centred on the third
< 1460768981 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That probably works
< 1460769000 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in euclidean language i think you'd just say "the line segments AB and AC are of equal length"
< 1460769004 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: well you need to be able to talk about what it means for something to be constructible, i guess that might not fit inside the first order logic of geometry itself.
< 1460769019 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hilbert's axioms aren't first-order anyway
< 1460769025 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh.
< 1460769029 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but I need to know how I can check for equivalent-length lines
< 1460769045 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1], well then, as i said
< 1460769078 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes, that's what I'm going to do
< 1460769091 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Though I think I'll need some non-deterministic computing
< 1460769097 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://euclidthegame.com/Tutorial/ is a game that basically takes you through explicit constructions of a lot of these things
< 1460769275 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Helloover. AAAAAAAAAURGH!
< 1460769283 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remind me of that timesink of a website!
< 1460769484 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: relax, have another weird al https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwvlbJ0h35A
< 1460769523 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :best weird al https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib2Vl7JEjfc
< 1460769606 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily, i was just saved by its incredibly bad solution detection refusing to identify my perpendicular
< 1460769651 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1460769712 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw it needs to be watched until the end hth)
< 1460769821 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :again with that weird issue. I get sounds, but no picture. it happens on some youtube videos for no apparent reason.
< 1460769840 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom's video's fine, tho...
< 1460769853 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: darn :(
< 1460769858 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know :/
< 1460770468 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460770492 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1460770597 0 :me4!~me@38.70.70.115.static.exetel.com.au QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1460770634 0 :me4!~me@38.70.70.115.static.exetel.com.au JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460770805 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION lightly mapoles me4
< 1460770810 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :another one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMCwiL6MZcY
< 1460770926 0 :acertain!~acertain@unaffiliated/fread2281 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1460771016 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a working gramophone :D
< 1460772507 0 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460773022 0 :acertain!~acertain@unaffiliated/fread2281 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460773310 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460773422 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've figured it out
< 1460773450 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to make a highly parallelizable CPU archi that can also be output from an ordinary C++ compiler
< 1460773453 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mellod.
< 1460773473 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some kind of Verilog/C++ crossover?
< 1460773518 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just an instruction set that's easy to run lots of instructions in parallel
< 1460773627 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have an accumulator. every instruction writes its result to the accumulater, and also optionally to a register of the regfile
< 1460773684 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the instructions that don't have a dependency on the accumulator are the first instructions of each 'group'
< 1460773769 0 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460773770 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, each regfile register name can only be written to once, but you have an instruction to rotate regfile names and generate new ones
< 1460773836 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the regfile is split into a few partitions so that values with different lifespans can be kept longer or shorter
< 1460773869 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the cpu really only has 2 instructions
< 1460773886 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"generate N new register names"
< 1460773888 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and
< 1460773913 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"start executing a bunch of instructions at memory offset X"
< 1460773980 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is, you can run another "start executing a bunch of instructions at memory offset Y", and you're guarenteed that it can run in parallel
< 1460774015 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because since every register is only written to once, you know that the group X and group Y will never write to the same registers
< 1460774044 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll also need seperate memory segments.
< 1460774056 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :seperate methods of accessing I/O.
< 1460774058 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if group Y reads from a register written to in group X, the register has a 'valid' flag and can simply wait until it's valid
< 1460774070 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :ways of guaranteeing race conditions don't happen.
< 1460774078 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. there's a lot more than just a register file.
< 1460774082 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :picobit : yeah, that's the catch... this solves arithmetic instructions but not really memory instructions
< 1460774092 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: look into flow based programming.
< 1460774100 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: that's truly a "shared nothing" paradigm.
< 1460774125 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I do have a plan for memory instructions too tho
< 1460774167 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :memory instructions can also be instructions groups, with the catch that they can't have an accumulator
< 1460774178 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they are run in-order
< 1460774184 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're basically re-implementing atomics.
< 1460774191 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :and threads.
< 1460774209 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but this can be output from a C++ compiler
< 1460774224 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :it already is.
< 1460774225 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no way llvm can auto-threadify general purpose code
< 1460774239 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no way you can either.
< 1460774249 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :because why would you want to "auto-threadify" something.
< 1460774257 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy
< 1460774260 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want my application suddenly barreling off, spawning off four threads.
< 1460774269 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to specify those threads and have control over them.
< 1460774274 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :mapping them to some useful work.
< 1460774285 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your cpu has N execution units
< 1460774299 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can keep it busy with N "micro-threads"
< 1460774321 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, but you're not getting the fact that code is generally meant to be explicit about concurrency and parallelism, not implicit.
< 1460774326 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :each unit is just an ALU + regfile write port + 2 regfile read ports
< 1460774388 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :picobit : well, no this is a design to go get the 2/3/4 parallel instructions you can get implicitly
< 1460774389 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, I don't want my prime number sieve spinning off into different threads, nor do I want any other code of mine to do so unless I explicitly specify it, and I can, and I will.. with existing threading libraries.
< 1460774417 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, it's just a fancy design for an out-of-order cpu
< 1460774419 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :your idea isn't really that useful when this exists as a solved problem. what you should focus on is better concurrency primitives.
< 1460774510 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my idea only has to be more useful than an out-of-order RISC in the style of the MIPS R10000 or quad-issue Dec Alpha or quad-issue PA-Risc or the x86 equivalents (3-issue amd athlon and so forth)
< 1460774549 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :but.. you don't solve anything, you just succeed in the fact that "yeah, we can now, without much regard to what we're writing, spawn off threads for things that may not need them"
< 1460774566 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not going to be useful, we have out of order execution and atomic memory accesses already.
< 1460774577 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1460774582 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :focus on some interesting methods of organizing concurrent systems.
< 1460774592 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's easy to build register files with dozens of read and write port and schedule a whole bunch of execution units then my idea is useless, right
< 1460774594 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :believe me, you'll find some untrodden grounds.
< 1460774608 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: yeah, we call them threads and thread local storage.
< 1460774659 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :by all means don't let me stop you, just bear that in mind, you're inventing something that already exists.
< 1460774660 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :picobit : If I was looking at a highly threadable load, then I'd go for a totally different design
< 1460774679 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not even highly threadable. show me one instance where I'd prefer implicit threading.
< 1460774707 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by implicit, I mean "I don't have control over it and the compiler will automagically do it for me."
< 1460774710 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if you have tons of explicit threads, you only need a 2-issue in-order cpu with lots of cores and hyper threading
< 1460774717 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what the SPARC does
< 1460774726 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay.
< 1460774730 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anything stalls, move on to next thread
< 1460774740 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :solves a ton of CPU design problems
< 1460774741 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :annnnnnnnd your implicit threading model would be akin tooooo...
< 1460774759 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works for SPARC because it runs servers with dozens of concurrent programs
< 1460774771 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :yyyup, and we specify explicit threads.
< 1460774776 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :saving state, switching, etc.
< 1460774822 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my 'implicit threading' model is more like an attempt at doing hardware SSA
< 1460774854 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :..static security analysis?
< 1460774862 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1460774876 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :joking, but okay.
< 1460774907 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only a way to reduce the number of regfile reads and writes
< 1460774910 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460774911 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like
< 1460774916 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a sequence like
< 1460774929 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sub r0, r1
< 1460774934 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mul r0, r2
< 1460774937 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sar r0, 16
< 1460774945 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :add r0, r1
< 1460774948 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want to automatically parallelize calculations by duplicating regfiles.
< 1460774954 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mul r0, r8
< 1460774960 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sar r0, 16
< 1460774963 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :and running the same operations over those regfiles with local names.
< 1460774989 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all well and good but be explicit in the how and where. we already have this kind of thing.
< 1460774995 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, first step is that I'd use an accumulator
< 1460775013 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sub ac, r0, r1
< 1460775020 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mul ac, r2
< 1460775024 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sar ac, 16
< 1460775026 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc...
< 1460775062 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :excluding that the accumulator is also a register, it only reads from the regfile once per instruction except the first one
< 1460775075 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it only writes to the regfile once at the end to store the result
< 1460775087 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :have fun
< 1460775098 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of doing 2 reads 1 write per op like on the MIPS
< 1460775150 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, that instruction sequence is serial
< 1460775159 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it cannot be parallelized no matter how
< 1460775185 0 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ds01-214-177.dynamic.mtsallstream.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460775212 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that cpu is slower than a pentium or a dual issue ARM as of yet
< 1460775377 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :picobit : I'm sorry that this doesn't fall into your preferred topic of parallelization primitives
< 1460775408 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: don't be offended by my criticism of your idea. any idea worth its salt will be criticised.
< 1460775465 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's just a different design area
< 1460775469 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a different fight
< 1460775574 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you add the requirement of specially written c++ code to get the extra performance, then the mainstream approach is probably a combination of SIMD (SSE) and multi-threading
< 1460775585 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or giving up on c++ and doing GPU calculation
< 1460775622 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or potentially using a DSP architecture if it benefits from low-power/embedded stuff and is math-y
< 1460775654 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or using an FPGA
< 1460775686 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's all lower level than C++
< 1460775860 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the challenge I'm interested in is running single threaded C++ fast... does that make sense? :3
< 1460775893 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and potentially higher level languages, which all benefit from the same stuff as C++ generally
< 1460776124 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: NAMED CHICKEN
< 1460776290 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mike, obviously.
< 1460776459 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :picobit : basically you're criticising the whole idea of having fewer more powerful cores, rather than lots of small slower cores :D
< 1460776526 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: no, I'm criticising your idea of what parallelism in terms of both execution and programming is supposed to mean.
< 1460776531 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :not interested in discussing it further.
< 1460776537 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, cheers.
< 1460776778 0 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460776808 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like, you throw me off tracks then lose interest... not happy... but anyhow
< 1460777176 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1460777212 0 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1460777212 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1460777220 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460777231 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :eep
< 1460777249 0 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1460777292 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460777652 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`twilight
< 1460777660 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`doomsday
< 1460777662 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: twilight: not found
< 1460777662 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: doomsday: not found
< 1460777764 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom facebook
< 1460777769 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :facebook/Facebook is Taneb's face collection.
< 1460777787 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom twilight
< 1460777788 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/cat: : No such file or directory
< 1460777915 0 :bb010g_!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zlkgpxmzjbavfqkn QUIT :
< 1460778086 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1460778205 0 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460778365 0 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mmlxndtskvmdmuin JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460778886 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMN!
< 1460778903 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was flying really well until it exploded
< 1460779074 0 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@129.21.121.192 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460779223 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather than changing the configuration, I'll just say don't pull more than 12 gees in this
< 1460779399 0 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460780120 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing I have design is the instruction set where other than reading the instruction opcode, there is up to one additional memory access which may be a read or write depending on the instruction (whether or not such memory access exists at all depends on the addressing mode, which is independent of the instruction code number)
< 1460780423 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460780433 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : /join #totallynormal
< 1460780438 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PART #esoteric :"Leaving"
< 1460780443 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460780445 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops
< 1460780583 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Java syntax borrows heavily from C and C++, but object-oriented features are modeled after Smalltalk and Objective-C.[11]"
< 1460780593 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now image s/C and C++/something else/
< 1460780617 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Java syntax borrows heavily from brainfuck and Befunge-98, but object-oriented features are modeled after Smalltalk and Objective-C."
< 1460780962 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then also s/Smalltalk and Objective-C/something else/ too
< 1460780971 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: No, we have to keep one part
< 1460780977 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Or else it becomes less fun
< 1460780978 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1460780995 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What would be a BFJava Hello World?
< 1460781020 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't necessarily have to mean both Smalltalk and Objective-C, or to add a new one to those two
< 1460781036 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: True
< 1460781243 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :{'HELLO WORLD'($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)}
< 1460781281 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Something like that
< 1460781303 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ is sys, $::~ is stdout, $::~::. is sys.stdout.write
< 1460781327 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ is tape, _::^ is current tape cell, _::^::> is... hm..
< 1460781340 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/_::^/_/
< 1460781428 0 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1460781838 0 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460781894 0 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460782252 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have now been quieted on ##programming
< 1460782310 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o
< 1460782319 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: Yep xD
< 1460782867 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460783095 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460783306 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far my attempts to program in kOS have mostly resulted in crashes and expolsions
< 1460783403 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: kOS?
< 1460783433 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: The mythical Canadian wrapper?
< 1460783437 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rapper
< 1460783473 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Kid Operating System?
< 1460783540 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Oh, looks like that Wikipedia article was deleted because it was someone's personal project, not a noteworthy thing
< 1460783693 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Oh, is it https://www.reddit.com/r/kos?
< 1460783882 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1460783930 0 :Yurume_!23f9939a@121.78.85.35 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like chaOS
< 1460784063 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yurume_: Excellent puint.
< 1460784193 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :knightOS?
< 1460784466 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1460784474 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kerbal arm skin color is #84D455
< 1460784670 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, or BADA55
< 1460784786 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerbal operation system
< 1460784805 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so far, I can't program a launcher
< 1460785044 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means all my probes are going to need to have constant radio signal, so I have to launch a ton of relay satellites
< 1460785065 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Um. What's kerbal operation system?
< 1460785077 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Please tell me it isn't a Billiard Ball Computer that uses gravity.
< 1460785191 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460785213 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's a mod for the game which allows you to program your spacecraft to function autonomously
< 1460785506 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite
< 1460785548 0 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ds01-214-177.dynamic.mtsallstream.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1460785956 0 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu QUIT :Quit: That's what she said
< 1460786411 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Ah, good
< 1460786642 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: do you ksp?
< 1460786674 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: I have it, but I don't use it often
< 1460786749 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. Soon I'm going to release my mod (like, probably tomorrow)
< 1460786884 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it will add some parts that I think should have been in stock
< 1460786911 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will add RCS thrusters that run on oxidizer
< 1460786947 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a fuel cell that uses intake ait
< 1460786952 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*air
< 1460787016 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and saceplane parts with only fuel and no oxidizer in them
< 1460787189 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically giving more latitude to make cool planes
< 1460787383 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a fuel cell that runs on fuel and intake air allows to make cars that run like real cars kind of
< 1460787515 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460787730 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh. maybe I should add a resource called "MechanicalPower", parts that produce it from fuel and parts that use it?
< 1460787744 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'll be in the next release I guess
< 1460787764 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460788021 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh, a programming language that crashes and raises an error when you program badly
< 1460788024 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least a warning
< 1460788284 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't most programming languages do that to some extent? especially C?
< 1460788308 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, C doesn't reliably crash when you program badly.
< 1460788320 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly what it does is behave very weirdly.
< 1460788334 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And especially bad programmers then rely on the weirdness and are surprised when it breaks.
< 1460788382 0 :Alcest!~alcest@69.64.40.177 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460788930 0 :Alcest!~alcest@69.64.40.177 QUIT :K-Lined
< 1460789099 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"gcc writers examine the C spec under magnifying glass to find a flaw that gets 0.1% extra speed but breaks in a corner case when compiled on non-x86"
< 1460789126 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Perhaps a punishment is enacted if you don't adhere to the style guide? xD
< 1460789145 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the compiler won't work for 1.1^count minutes
< 1460789185 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where count is incremented every time you try to compile without adhering to some style guide (described in a .sg file) and reset when you do
< 1460789192 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like how they figured that technically the spec allows them to crash if an int wraps
< 1460789224 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course the whole strict aliasing business
< 1460789228 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They could add options and attributes and so on in order to adjust such thing
< 1460789246 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there ARE options to turn off strict aliasing and the like
< 1460789284 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might want to adjust them with more specifics though
< 1460789287 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :-fno-strict-aliasing -fwrapv
< 1460789290 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: Wait, how does integer overflow result in crashes?
< 1460789291 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than just on/off general.
< 1460789330 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: the c spec doesn't define what '\x7F'+1 is
< 1460789339 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the most terrifying-but-slightly-cryptic command name?
< 1460789345 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fictitious or real
< 1460789345 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1] : it doesn't
< 1460789347 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but
< 1460789349 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reality warping is allowed
< 1460789406 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hehehe I would be a TERRIFYING pilot if I worked for an airline
< 1460789408 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they pretend that integers never overflow for the optimization of replacing 32bit counter values with 64bit values so that the cpu doesn't have to promote the value to 64bits every time on x64
< 1460789436 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell
< 1460789453 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh, here's an idea
< 1460789458 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so code that works in 32bits might not work anymore if ints wrap
< 1460789462 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A language with both `odd' and `even' types
< 1460789496 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I think languages with ADTs should have a `complex' keyword/ADT/whatever
< 1460789517 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in LLVM you could control type-based aliasing with more details, as well as doing other stuff that otherwise is messy or whatever in C, although there are some other problems with LLVM
< 1460790628 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Depending on the implementations' other choices, there are two possible meanings of that.
< 1460790635 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is either '\x80' or UB.
< 1460790655 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C doesn't say char is signed, C says char *may* be signed.
< 1460790686 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, char isn't necessarily 8 bits. :)
< 1460790777 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also also, it's not just "technically": the spec literally says "signed overflow is undefined behavior".
< 1460790794 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not just a weird edge case, it spells it out for you that it is not defined behavior.
< 1460790803 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like the type aliasing rules.
< 1460790849 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need signed overflow anyways in my programs generally, as I would use unsigned numbers in the cases where overflow wrapping would be useful anyways it would generally be more useful to use unsigned numbers in such cases.
< 1460790878 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. And C defines pretty exactly what unsigned overflow does.
< 1460790946 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :char is like
< 1460790960 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it went signed on some places, unsigned on others, can't be fixed
< 1460790968 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :everybody loses
< 1460790971 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. So there's three variants of it.
< 1460790979 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's signed char, unsigned char, and char.
< 1460790982 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can explicitly set "signed char" and "unsigned char" when it cares
< 1460790983 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now we're stuck with it.
< 1460790985 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really should have been unsigned by default
< 1460791020 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in some cases it does not matter if no arithmetic is being performed on it
< 1460791021 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can think of one case for signed overflow
< 1460791032 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting 0 when last bit is 0
< 1460791040 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, for symmetry I would've preferred signed char to be default, but string literals to be unsigned char* (and all the C functions, and also the rule that char* can alias anything).
< 1460791045 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 0xffffffff (-1) when last bit is 1
< 1460791065 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :val << 31 >> 31
< 1460791097 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bit shifting beyond the type's range like that on signed values is *also* UB. :)
< 1460791109 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about decoding snes ADPCM
< 1460791113 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4bit signed)
< 1460791113 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason is, well, frankly quite silly.
< 1460791114 0 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460791123 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :with overflow: nibble << 28 >> 28
< 1460791131 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C does not require implementations to have 2's complement arithmetic.
< 1460791147 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are other ways to do sign extend anyways
< 1460791149 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok please tell me what non-2's complement platforms are left
< 1460791160 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say it was reasonable.
< 1460791166 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I in fact said it was quite silly.
< 1460791171 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like
< 1460791177 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, C supports ebcdic
< 1460791207 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's the reason. C quite specifically wants to support 1's complement and sign-and-magnitude arithmetic.
< 1460791222 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be fair, there at least *are* users of C with EBCDIC.
< 1460791225 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two's complement is the only mathematically reasonable way anyways
< 1460791234 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is utterly unlike the other sign representations.
< 1460791293 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think char should be unsigned becaucause signed char is fairly rare imho
< 1460791297 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You're correct about that, and I am damned glad that's what we settled on.
< 1460791322 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically small numbers such as 8 bit sound sample data (which is unsigned usually but signed makes more sense)
< 1460791337 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also used signed 8 bit in like compressed FFT data
< 1460791342 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much like how IEEE appears to be the only reasonable floating point representation.
< 1460791351 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: You could write "typedef unsigned char byte;" if you want to abbreviate unsigned char I guess, or else to use #define
< 1460791354 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :IEEE has its quirks
< 1460791358 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mostly due to being the only one with usable semantics)
< 1460791365 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: Sure, but the alternatives are worse.
< 1460791370 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : uint8_t
< 1460791385 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: Yes or like that too
< 1460791386 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : it's the one in that standard types header
< 1460791392 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :stdint.h
< 1460791403 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes stdint.h
< 1460791404 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use -fwrapv
< 1460791421 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is also nice because if you compile on an utterly unreasonable system, your code just doesn't compile instead of running and failing horribly.
< 1460791430 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :message to all people who use myLibSInt32 types and the like: use stdint.h
< 1460791449 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(reportedly there are such unreasonable systems, called "DSPs".)
< 1460791452 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, seriously.
< 1460791463 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The case of floating points is different than the case of integers though. In the case of integers, two's complement is more mathematically correct, but in the case of floating point the representation isn't really mathematically correct but rather has certain properties of implementation, so it is different
< 1460791467 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that MSVC even supports it, there's literally no reason not to.
< 1460791474 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're on an unreasonable system, you're on a DSP and it's not like you're going to compile quake on that :D
< 1460791495 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, like, arduino, which is 16bit C for some reason?
< 1460791545 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two's complement is valid even for unbounded numbers
< 1460791570 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : the real reason why IEEE is hard to beat is that it's what you can actually build in electronics
< 1460791589 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatives just don't translate into hw multipliers etc
< 1460791614 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460791625 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you could say that there's a practical alternative... "IEEE except all the slow values like inf nan denormals are replaced by 0"
< 1460791649 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: Yes, so there is the reason like that. What I have said is just that it isn't quite the same reason as I have described at first, although the reason having to do with electronics does help with both two's complement integers and IEEE floating point.
< 1460791663 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The mathematical reason I described at first was only for integers though)
< 1460791681 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, have you read about unums v2
< 1460791683 0 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1460791697 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that is
< 1460791780 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to find the paper
< 1460791792 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1460791805 0 :John420!~Admin@112.203.92.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460791817 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.johngustafson.net/presentations/Multicore2016-JLG.pdf
< 1460791834 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My own C programs are design for ASCII systems, although you might be able to run the program on EBCDIC systems by use of ASCII emulator I suppose; also by use of emulator you can even run program that use some feature not supported on the target system too in some cases.
< 1460791859 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :v2 has fixed size numbers so it's a lot more reasonable... but: I'm pretty sure this doesn't scale to 16bit and 32bit numbers
< 1460791880 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ebcdic systems have 8bit bytes
< 1460791910 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you simply ignore the platform's encoding then ebcdic disappears
< 1460792025 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't rely on characters being particular numeric values, EBCDIC vs. ASCII doesn't really matter for most programs.
< 1460792036 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The big thing that causes issues is network programs.
< 1460792074 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeX has stuff built-in in order to ensure that it will work with ASCII coding regardless of what coding the system it runs on uses
< 1460792086 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(FWIW, the '0' + x thing to get digits does work on EBCDIC. And *any* compliant C system, in fact. It's one of the few guarantees that C grants regarding the charset.)
< 1460792138 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even at that level of cross platformity
< 1460792152 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the code I've written has this in it:
< 1460792165 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ifdef __BIG_ENDIAN
< 1460792180 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :#error Code big endian support
< 1460792182 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :#endif
< 1460792195 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frankly, I just wish that the C spec would stop permitting utterly absurd implementations and require two's complement and UTF-8.
< 1460792231 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allow me to grumble by listing the systems that people should care about that also don't do UTF-8: Windows
< 1460792233 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :utf-8 libc in msvc would be a timesaver
< 1460792235 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that it should require two's complement but should not require UTF-8 it should require ASCII (of which UTF-8 is a superset, so UTF-8 systems are compatible)
< 1460792235 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1460792243 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like
< 1460792252 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the utf-16 stuff in windows is ridiculous
< 1460792265 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I would be happy with only requiring UTF-8 if wchar_t supports anything beyond ASCII.
< 1460792293 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of it we have a type that's typedefed to std::wstring on windows and std::string on osx
< 1460792315 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :with conversion functions that do the whole utf16<->8 thing but are nops on osx
< 1460792332 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like wchar_t anyways
< 1460792358 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wchar_t is useful in some cases
< 1460792386 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly string processing on languages that aren't english but don't have characters past utf-16 either
< 1460792416 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note also that MSVC's implementation of wchar_t is non-compliant.
< 1460792440 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wchar_t is specified such that you can't have a code unit composed of two wchar_t's.
< 1460792443 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although my own opinion is that it should not be a built-in feature.
< 1460792461 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. if you insist on having a 16-bit wchar_t, you are required by ISO C to only have UCS-2.
< 1460792496 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how many programs break if you give them >64k unicode chars
< 1460792513 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends. Probably a lot on Windows.
< 1460792530 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that many on Linux or OS X though; both of those have 32-bit wchar_t.
< 1460792552 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And programmers that mostly just go "eh, char's UTF-8. Whatever." and it all works.
< 1460792577 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds me of that program that used this library
< 1460792591 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will implement my own UTF-8 parsing in programs that need Unicode, which is rare anyways.
< 1460792601 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :libiconv
< 1460792609 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In many cases just being 8-bit clean is good enough)
< 1460792629 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And then it works with any kind of extended ASCII code which is compatible with ASCII)
< 1460792636 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem: libiconv is lgpl
< 1460792679 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... is only needed on Windows because Windows can't be assed to implement even the subset of POSIX that works reasonably in terms of Win32 semantics.
< 1460792689 0 :John420!~Admin@112.203.92.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460792725 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460792735 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program in question used some obscure japanese encoding
< 1460792744 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in: not sjis
< 1460792751 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean seriously, not having strdup? Granted that it's a simple function, but WHY?!?)
< 1460792755 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :EUC-JP?
< 1460792759 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though that's not that obscure.
< 1460792762 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes euc-jp
< 1460792767 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude
< 1460792782 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most programs that support like every crazy encoding
< 1460792787 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not support euc-jp
< 1460792803 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird. It's used pretty heavily on the Japanese web.
< 1460792813 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not as much as Shift-JIS, but still.
< 1460792817 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :to even read the comments in the freaking code I had to import it in, like, open office
< 1460792858 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Granted* that you basically won't see it outside of websites and Unix systems with really obstinate admins, but still.
< 1460792895 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also like all the string constants
< 1460792899 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :were in that encoding
< 1460792911 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was probably an old Unix program.
< 1460792927 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it did all sorts of weird conversions so I didn't want to touch it
< 1460792937 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorta yeah
< 1460792940 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prior to Unicode's popularity, all Japanese Unix systems used EUC-JP.
< 1460792944 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well
< 1460792949 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supported 3 encodings
< 1460792968 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :eucjp, sjis and utf8
< 1460792986 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :except all the dictionary data had to be in the matching encoding
< 1460792992 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all the input/output
< 1460793014 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and basically the win32 version had sjis data instead
< 1460793023 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I didn't have the source to that
< 1460793091 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is also my own text character encoding design which is called UTCE and is meant for terminal displays rather than for typesetting anyways.
< 1460793104 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: no way that I'll trust source code encoding
< 1460793128 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Legacy encodings. Sigh.
< 1460793137 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory it should be 'as is' but I'm not testing it
< 1460793163 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, usually for C++ code it's really just latin-1
< 1460793169 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is really cp-1252whatever
< 1460793176 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always write the source code in ASCII
< 1460793207 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore avoiding the problem to consider whether it is Latin-1 or UTF-8 or PC or whatever else it might be.
< 1460793221 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : Obviously you haven't had to encode a list of french words that don't have liaison into c++ code
< 1460793235 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A reasonable approach if you can get away with it.
< 1460793245 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, not all is English.
< 1460793301 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is true I have not had to do that, although in such a case I may have used escapes and then the code would contain whatever is needed to deal with whatever encoding it uses anyways so can avoid it, or else to use an external file for the list of words in case it will be extended later on too
< 1460793312 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like... is the svn client going to decide to reencode behind my back or something?
< 1460793317 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about xcode?
< 1460793346 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... Everything but UTF-8 can go die in a fire.
< 1460793364 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially things that aren't supersets of ASCII.
< 1460793388 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, all of the legacy charsets should just go away.
< 1460793409 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are many problem with Unicode
< 1460793415 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've actually used latin-1 encoding for a good part of the french processing stuff
< 1460793421 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not totally useless
< 1460793423 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... yeah
< 1460793434 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Latin-1, or as I prefer calling it, UCS-1. :P
< 1460793443 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows cp-1252
< 1460793450 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the real name
< 1460793468 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows 1252 though isn't quite ISO-8859-1
< 1460793474 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yes, but they are vastly outweighed by the problems of having a wide number of other incompatible charsets, some of which have the *exact same problems*.
< 1460793486 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, windows 1252 has useful chars from 0x80 to 0x9f
< 1460793494 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of more totally useless control characters
< 1460793495 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That is true, some do have the same problem, and sometimes additional problems
< 1460793504 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit I'd like a nicer charset, but it's hard to say exactly how to get there.
< 1460793514 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But converting raw 8-bit data to UTF-8 is also same as converting ISO-8859-1 to Unicode.
< 1460793527 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And at least UTF-8 appears to mostly fit peoples' use cases and actually freaking work.
< 1460793528 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well I have made UTCE
< 1460793541 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : except for the windows-1252 specific characters
< 1460793549 0 :lambda-11235!~lambda-11@47.208.113.50 QUIT :Quit: Bye
< 1460793556 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: Yes but then it isn't ISO-8859-1
< 1460793573 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's labeled as latin-1, it's not latin-1
< 1460793580 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really windows-1252
< 1460793589 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's actually in the HTML-5 spec.
< 1460793599 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which... matches real-world usage, as much as I hate it.
< 1460793603 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody actually uses the 'real' latin-1 with the 32 control characters
< 1460793624 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can convert UTCE to/from Unicode, although it is lossy either way, due to each missing characters of the other, some characters being ambiguous, and character widths sometimes differing)
< 1460793625 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because who the hell needs control characters
< 1460793656 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use ASCII control characters in some applications, although that won't cause a problem with the C1 controls anyways since they aren't really ASCII
< 1460793664 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and basically they forgot œ in latin-1
< 1460793680 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they snuck it into cp-1252
< 1460793703 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: That is a good correction yes, but it doesn't make it real ISO-8859-1
< 1460793713 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: The ASCII control characters will basically work regardless because, uh, I think everyone agrees on 'em.
< 1460793714 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody uses the real iso-8859-1
< 1460793717 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if ASCII doesn't.
< 1460793718 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1460793720 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a valid encoding
< 1460793728 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody wants it
< 1460793777 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much.
< 1460793810 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, although the command "utftovlq 81" converts raw 8-bit data to UTF-8, which in terms of Unicode text is converting the real ISO-8859-1 into Unicode so that is what it does, whether you want it to or not (you can use an external table to use custom conversion codes though)
< 1460793837 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will break the day some guy writes œ in the text
< 1460793868 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless the program is being used incorrectly, it won't.
< 1460793875 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or €
< 1460793891 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if you have 8-bit data
< 1460793905 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :from western european languages
< 1460793980 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one situation that it happens is that it's the default 8-bit encoding for these languages since basically forever
< 1460793993 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that encoding is cp-1252
< 1460793995 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The encoding "8" of utftovlq corresponds to raw 8-bit data and does not propose specific meanings to it. If you want specific translations such as CP-1252 then you should use the "T" encoding type instead, in which case you will need to provide the encoding table file.
< 1460794018 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: Well, not "forever"...
< 1460794032 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly, the one they had before it is an old DOS codepage that *nobody* uses anymore.
< 1460794038 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1460794042 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore trying to use "utftovlq 81" to convert Windows-1252 to Unicode is wrong
< 1460794070 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use the PC character set though sometimes, such as when I need 8-bit text, though
< 1460794074 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : so it only encodes stuff that uses the first 256 unicode codepoints
< 1460794080 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is an encoding that nobody uses
< 1460794099 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq : right, though that was tailored to different needs :3
< 1460794112 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta have all those box drawing characters
< 1460794161 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: It does not actually impose that the UTF-8 data is Unicode codepoints either; it just treats the data as a list of 36-bit unsigned integers.
< 1460794206 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However the code types "u" and "U" are UTF-16 and deal with surrogates properly. The code types "w" and "W" however are raw 16-bit data, not UTF-16.
< 1460794236 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyhow
< 1460794244 0 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-51-51.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460794268 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore "utftovlq u1" will convert Unicode text from UTF-16 to UTF-8. If you instead write "utftovlq w1" you will get what is called CESU-8.
< 1460794363 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note however that "utftovlq 1u | utftovlq u1" will convert any Unicode text in UTF-8 that happens to be CESU-8 into proper UTF-8, while leaving proper UTF-8 as is, so the input may be mixed.)
< 1460794472 0 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-66-24.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460794510 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it would be possible to have a system that draws letters from the general characteristics of the font, rather than having a vectorial contour for each letter
< 1460794551 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that if you had, say, a weird cyrillic letter in the text in chechen or something, it would automatically figure out how to do it in the style of the font
< 1460794585 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you'd say "this is how a vertical stroke with serifs is done" and it would automatically combine strokes
< 1460794603 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. I think that exists for chinese
< 1460794605 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like METAFONT can do similar things but would require the font to be precompiled anyways
< 1460794658 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you modify the "vertical stroke with serifs" subroutine and then recompile it then you can get the version with different styles.
< 1460794720 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460794946 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, such things already exists
< 1460794999 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460795043 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It is sometimes said that METAFONT does not do outlines and only does drawing with pens of specified shapes; actually it can do both.)
< 1460795312 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460796110 0 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com QUIT :Quit: Pics or it didn't happen
< 1460796390 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :This sentence contains "this sentence" twice.
< 1460796444 0 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460797148 0 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mmlxndtskvmdmuin QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1460797412 0 :rdococ!~rdococ@unaffiliated/octagonfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :This sentence contains "This sentence contains "This sentence contains "This sentence contains "This sentence contains "
< 1460797708 0 :rdococ!~rdococ@unaffiliated/octagonfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :This sentence isn't not false.
< 1460797756 0 :rdococ!~rdococ@unaffiliated/octagonfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bananas dananas.
< 1460797794 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@2a02:1811:d22:cc00:657e:581:892e:9885 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460798398 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460798687 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460803095 0 :carado!~carado@savhon.org QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1460804733 0 :Reece`!~Ner@cpc4-wiga13-2-0-cust799.18-3.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460806084 0 :dos!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460806272 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460806591 0 :Reece`!~Ner@cpc4-wiga13-2-0-cust799.18-3.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1460809063 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460809725 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-178-006-010-224.178.006.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460809757 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460809936 0 :dos!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1460809936 0 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1460811146 0 :dingbat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hiifhtiyfeodatyi QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1460811449 0 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-66-24.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460811552 0 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-66-24.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460811658 0 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460812098 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460812110 0 :me4!~me@38.70.70.115.static.exetel.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1460812754 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460812893 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460812898 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, cleaning up my tmp folder... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/yesno.png is still brilliantly bad
< 1460813202 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1460813317 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the "smallest" logic that differs between "alice likes dogs" and "alice likes every dog"?
< 1460813494 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-ello, mynamello.
< 1460813496 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. forall x: dog(x) => likes(alice,x) would be the later, but not the former
< 1460814145 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( propositional logic... just assign true to "alice likes dogs" and false to "alice likes every dog" )
< 1460814159 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P
< 1460814182 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't answer the actual question.
< 1460814240 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may need to use something like: forall x: dog(x) => possibly likes(alice,x)
< 1460814490 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just some kind of class/instance concept. forall x: instance(x, dogs) => likes(alice,x) vs. likes(alice, dogs)
< 1460814529 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(downside: you can't easily intersect classes... say, speak about yellow dogs)
< 1460814561 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can circumvent the problem of constructing a "typical" instance... or whatever it is that "alice likes dogs" really talks about.
< 1460814658 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dog(x)vis oretry much the same as instance(x,dog)
< 1460814684 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently i translate yellow dog as dog(x)&yellow(x)
< 1460814985 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps one can toy with a Bourbaki style operator... likes(alice, TYPICAL x. dog(x)))
< 1460815062 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought about something like that, but i guess that is equally bad to proove as is possiblygnecessarily
< 1460815135 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grrr... "monetizing" URL shorteners are awful.
< 1460815202 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Most of the link spam I see on IRC these days uses them.)
< 1460815244 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't click on linkspam hth
< 1460815254 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monetizing? how can you monetize an URL itself?
< 1460815265 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :adfly
< 1460815295 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :khey, you want to open page x, thatjs fine. here is an app before i will put you there"
< 1460815300 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The URL shortener has a trampoline page that displays ads. The person who shortened the link gets a share of the resulting profit.
< 1460815325 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, installing an App is even better.
< 1460815365 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's one of those business models that only complete assholes would come up with or run... so there's a ton of these sites around.
< 1460815395 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuck!
< 1460815412 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not as bad as these "want to see more nudes? make 2 million other people click this link"
< 1460815431 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree, it's just as bad as that.
< 1460815479 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION drinks more coffee to cleanse his mind off of these atrocities
< 1460815624 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get mich less spam from these adfly thingies
< 1460816293 0 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@129.21.120.143 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460816620 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome iconmaster
< 1460816623 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember when minecraft modders started trying to monetise adfly
< 1460816647 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :07iconmaster: 08Welcome 09to 02the 06international 13hub 04for 07esoteric 08programming 09language 02design 06and 13deployment! 04For 07more 08information, 09check 02out 06our 13wiki: 04. 07(For 08the 09other 02kind 06of 13esoterica, 04try 07#esoteric 08on 09EFnet 02or 06DALnet.)
< 1460816677 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when people started pointing out "this site is known to serve malware, we're not using it" they started massive drama and started making public blacklists and shit
< 1460816811 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: POCKET CHICKEN
< 1460816816 0 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@129.21.120.143 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh wha
< 1460816856 0 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@129.21.120.143 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice new colors, boily
< 1460816891 0 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@129.21.120.143 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yeah, I recall that whole adfly thing, Phantom_Hoover. Hated the site. Glad people use CurseForge more these days.
< 1460817575 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :new colors?
< 1460817588 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, `relcome
< 1460817612 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't see those)
< 1460818625 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@vps.jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460819317 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460819788 0 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-66-24.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460820867 0 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-66-24.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460820900 0 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1460820910 0 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460821862 0 :carado!~carado@savhon.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460822247 0 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460822723 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote
< 1460822724 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote
< 1460822725 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote
< 1460822726 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote
< 1460822727 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote
< 1460822750 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :....lovely spam, oh wonderful spam...
< 1460822805 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1213) I got my girlfriend through the previous job's intranet IRC channel, so I don't see how the two can conflict...
< 1460822806 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :689) fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
< 1460822806 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :4) GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
< 1460822806 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :161) Vorpal loves the sodomy. elliott, sure why not
< 1460822806 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1037) would not be surprised to find out this tumblr is guerilla marketing by wolfram co to sell mathematica to stoners
< 1460822912 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote `quote `quote `quote `quote ....lovely spam, oh wonderful spam...
< 1460822919 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1275) `quote `quote `quote `quote ....lovely spam, oh wonderful spam...
< 1460822963 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should've said it 5 times.
< 1460823036 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or better, quote 5 different lines of that skit)
< 1460823045 0 :coppro!~scshunt@corn-syrup.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :1213 lacks context
< 1460823125 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it? My interpretation is that the conflict is between the girlfriend and IRC.
< 1460823364 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460823435 0 :Reece`!~Ner@cpc4-wiga13-2-0-cust799.18-3.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460823687 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@vps.jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1460823865 0 :p34k!~p34k@nat-wh-wz4-12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460824170 0 :lambda-11235!~lambda-11@47.208.113.50 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460824272 0 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@129.21.120.143 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460824764 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460825348 0 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@129.21.120.143 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460825355 0 :ineiros_!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1460825495 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :abridged context: Don't worry, all that happens when you hit 20 is you start IRCing less. pikhq: what could possibly be a more important use of time, after all? * pikhq looks at girlfriend I got my girlfriend through the previous job's intranet IRC channel, so I don't see how the two can conflict... pikhq: only an amateur lets that interfere with IRC time.
< 1460825574 0 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel QUIT :Quit: earendel
< 1460825649 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is nice too... I'm completely drained, only a hollow shell of my past self.
< 1460825682 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1460825796 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460825811 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really need to get a cloak.
< 1460825827 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I can go all around the world, every day...
< 1460825870 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1460825890 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would expect you would need more than a cloak to do that
< 1460825901 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION points at the channel topic
< 1460825938 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :Quite puzzling | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Chennai (not Madras)
< 1460825942 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1460826008 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :PROBLEM?
< 1460826045 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but I do wonder why on earth a Poetic Rock Orange Belated Linden Entity Master would exist in the first place.
< 1460826057 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :next up, St Petersburg (not Leningrad)
< 1460826174 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How far ahead have you planned this?
< 1460826187 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very far
< 1460826287 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :is Beijing (not Peking) acceptable, it's just a transcription difference...
< 1460826315 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering what on earth the general format is...
< 1460826346 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Judging by the "just a transcription difference", though, you're selecting a place, then a place that is nearby or something.
< 1460826346 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it started when someone else put Istanbul (not Constantinople) there. you might reason from that.
< 1460826386 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :One google search later...
< 1460826392 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, renamings.
< 1460826421 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chemnitz (not Karl-Marx-Stadt)
< 1460826429 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :London (not Londinium)
< 1460826429 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ooh, good one
< 1460826446 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: nah a bit close. Paris (not Lutetia), maybe.
< 1460826460 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION knows about that because Asterix
< 1460826509 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this could go on for a while.
< 1460826541 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, after parroting what little I know from history, I checked a wikipedia list. The full mess is: Londinium → Lundenwic → London
< 1460826555 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lundenwic sounds a bit further...
< 1460826560 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh Tokyo (not Edo)
< 1460826599 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: well those all are descended from each other, is what i mean.
< 1460826606 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I see.
< 1460826619 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, since I have the cheat-sheet up anyway...
< 1460826658 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm beijing has had other more distinct names
< 1460826662 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :York (not Eburacum)
< 1460826675 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Beijing, as Jicheng, was briefly the capital of the Xianbei Former Yan Kingdom."
< 1460826730 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :_lots_ of distinct names, apparently.
< 1460827104 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Beijing#Historical_names_of_Beijing
< 1460827264 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460827369 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh what?
< 1460827380 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what what?
< 1460827386 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what did you pbflist for? http://pbfcomics.com/ doesn't show a new strip
< 1460827436 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloerjan
< 1460827671 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jhellonas
< 1460827701 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess brand names would be too easy. (Audi, not Horch... famous pun...)
< 1460827800 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote itidus21
< 1460827803 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :630) myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die. \ 678) the possession of diamonds by the bourgeois is more about establishing their bourgeoisness more than wanting a malleable metal oops i forgot i said diamonds instead of gold \ 688) ok in oth
< 1460827850 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` quote itidus21 | shuf
< 1460827853 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :751) you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines \ 789) and all this time I thought we were talking about postmodern analysis of junk mail delivery methods and simulations of elephant breeding patterns \ 774) world peace is for fascists \ 771) elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years
< 1460828075 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Carbon, now in Metal form!
< 1460828082 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get yours today!
< 1460828269 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460829451 0 :osboxes!~osboxes@AGrenoble-551-1-258-127.w90-42.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460829551 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` quote itidus21 | wc -l
< 1460829553 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :15
< 1460829558 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :today carbon, tomorrow helium
< 1460829621 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm all I could find is this rather old news... http://phys.org/news/2013-11-three-dimensional-carbon-metallic.html
< 1460829638 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: me too
< 1460829727 0 :osboxes!~osboxes@AGrenoble-551-1-258-127.w90-42.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1460829771 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: um, isn't that just graphite? if I understand correctly, graphite is when each carbon atom uses three of its electrons for covalent bonds to form a planar hexagonal grid of all carbon atoms, and donates one electron for a metallic bond that ties the sheets together. how is this different?
< 1460829849 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see, it's a stronger version with the three covalent bonds already tying together the whole thing, but all theoretical because they don't know how to synthetize.
< 1460829886 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like those magical really tiny solid state memory thingies that are impossible to manufacture short of assembling it atom by atom
< 1460829906 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION [citation needed]s gamemanj
< 1460829942 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yeah, not in particular that the red C atoms have 4 bonds
< 1460829960 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a really funny structure
< 1460829967 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh!
< 1460829976 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that makes it even worse, doesn't it?
< 1460829989 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION currently playing tatham's slant puzzle
< 1460829992 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it would have less metallic electrons, so it would be a worse conductor probably
< 1460830018 0 :^v!~v^@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460830021 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not very hard any more, so it somehow becomes a speed challenge.
< 1460830063 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't trust me though, I'm not a chemist. ais523 is the channel chemist.
< 1460830102 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION once aced the highschool chemistry exam. but that was also the last time he really touched it.
< 1460830188 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I aced a few of those too, because they were usually choose-an-answer tests from a single book, so we just cheated by using a key for that book
< 1460830198 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't make me a chemist
< 1460830201 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was an oral exam
< 1460830206 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1460830209 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's more difficult
< 1460830222 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I couldn't say... there should be enough free electrons around.
< 1460830224 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first ever
< 1460830233 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :felt pretty good as i recall
< 1460830234 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :our chemistry lessons were so random I've got all possible grades
< 1460830253 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: nice
< 1460830296 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much pressure...
< 1460830323 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :all possible? including A minus 82.47655 recurring, with potential bias 28.01GU?
< 1460830363 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: that may not be a possible grade hth
< 1460830370 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"may"
< 1460830398 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that implies it's something which could be called into question, it's definitely not a possible grade
< 1460830453 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: well i'll admit it's probably a possible grade in some hypothetical universe hth
< 1460830486 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a _very_ pedantic one.
< 1460831178 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later
< 1460831220 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1460831903 0 :dingbat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vsemksmtkmhpieza JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460832254 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1460832388 0 :atrapado!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460832729 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460832812 0 :Reece`!~Ner@cpc4-wiga13-2-0-cust799.18-3.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460833731 0 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460833763 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since I have the boom of PC Technical Reference then possibly I can make up a program to emulate the IBM printer of PC.
< 1460833807 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My calculation is that the DVI units for this program should probably be 1/11880 inch (which is coarser than TeX)
< 1460833877 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this?
< 1460834017 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: um, I don't really understand what you're saying
< 1460834041 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are the DVI units 1/11880 inch?
< 1460834074 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since that divides all measurements needed to emulate it, as far as I can tell from the documentation of the printer
< 1460834131 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see
< 1460834201 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know about the IBM printer codes? I have the book of it so hopefully I can implement it.
< 1460834243 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I know a little bit, because I've had an Epson matrix printer when I was young, and the manual for it, and I think it's a bit similar
< 1460834275 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; I have also read Epson manual and from the IBM printer document it seems that the Epson is a superset of the IBM codes.
< 1460834423 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460834455 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Epson matrix printer can print formatted text with built-in or uploadable fonts, as well as bitmap graphics. It has nine pins offset iirc about one postscript point from each other, can move the paper vertically with a resolution of half of that, horizontally the points are about one postscript points wide on the paper, but it can use various higher horizontal resolutions for moving the head horizontally, with a max resolution perhaps 1/360 inch.
< 1460834481 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, Epson deliberately put an IBM printer compatibility mode in their printer.
< 1460834504 0 :lambda-11235!~lambda-11@47.208.113.50 QUIT :Quit: Bye
< 1460834598 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, but where it's the most obvious that it's derived from IBM is that its ROM fonts are cp437 encoded, and it gives a way to access all 256 characters of that encoding, even the control characters.
< 1460834822 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you mentioned the IBM printer codes earlier on this channel.
< 1460834858 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1/11880 inch"... that's pretty small
< 1460834875 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone translate into millimet(er|re)s?
< 1460834893 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: it's not that small, it's only 1/165 postscript points
< 1460834913 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah the days of "near letter quality"
< 1460834918 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, millimeters? it's 0.002138 millimeters
< 1460834976 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't think I'd seen the latest one before.
< 1460835002 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's TINY! How am I supposed to use people with pencils to draw out a DVI file if the units are that tiny???
< 1460835026 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is "Adam 2.0" http://pbfcomics.com/274/ the latest? maybe I'm getting something wrong
< 1460835034 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a great plan! It involved biscuits! And people! With pencils...
< 1460835044 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION quietly sobs in the corner
< 1460835052 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, that one.
< 1460835064 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recall a 9 pin printer that offered up to 240 dpi horizontally and 216 dpi vertically (with pins spaces 1/72in apart)
< 1460835107 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall any horizontal 360 dpi resolution... but it was a Citizen (cloning some Epson)...
< 1460835113 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that could match what I said about the Epson printer, because I don't quite recall the details
< 1460835122 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't have the manual here
< 1460835147 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Seriously, though, 0.002138mm is tiny. Go take out a ruler, and look at the size of a millimet(re|er). Now divide that by 500 or so. Ow.)
< 1460835150 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, you'd probably need units smaller than that horizontally to represent a mixture of the various resolutions.
< 1460835200 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure.
< 1460835200 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: ^ the printer doesn't have that much resolution, that's just the unit you need for a representation of what it can print in an ideal model
< 1460835227 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, so the world is sane!...now why on earth would even an ideal representation need to have that much resolution?
< 1460835243 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: I don't know, ask zzo
< 1460835886 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460835939 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: where did yo get that 11880 number?
< 1460836042 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: more to the point, consider this: http://sprunge.us/GYXd (from http://www.ctan.org/pkg/dvitype)
< 1460836163 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: “ My calculation is that the DVI units for this program should probably be 1/11880 inch (which is coarser than TeX)”
< 1460836173 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1460836179 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, sorry.
< 1460836285 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeX uses its own internal sp ("scaled point") unit, of course.
< 1460836327 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, and that's iirc 2**(-16) real point
< 1460836358 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a "point" is 1/72.27 inch.
< 1460836374 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1460836419 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a postscript point (named so beacuse postscript uses it as the unit in the original coordinate system before transforms) is 1/72 inch
< 1460837018 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: It is possible for a DVI file to have larger units; the units used in the file are defined in the header. The reason you need that much resolution of 1/11880 inch for this purpose is because you cannot have separate horizontal and vertical units.
< 1460837048 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...so?
< 1460837058 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ok, but still, how did you get 1/11880 in particular?
< 1460837085 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(b_jonas is wondering on the specifics of the value, it seems - I'm wondering why it's so small .)
< 1460837111 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you can have different units in DVI? Is that what \magstep does in TeX?
< 1460837129 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vertically the IBM printer uses line spacing of 1/72 inch but it uses 1/216 inch for double printing. Horizontally it can have 10 character per inch, 5 per inch, 16.5 per inch, or 8.25 per inch.
< 1460837158 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: No, TeX always uses the "scaled points" units. DVI however supports different units
< 1460837177 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ok
< 1460837186 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Given in the header as a fraction of decimicrons, with 32-bit numerator and 32-bit denominator)
< 1460837188 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: so you found a very large number that fits all of these units?
< 1460837210 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: Yes, that is what I did.
< 1460837218 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"decimicrons" -- um, that's 10**-5 meters, right?
< 1460837221 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a strange unit
< 1460837228 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange name I mean
< 1460837241 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange unit, strange name, both are accurate.
< 1460837307 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: nah, after computer software apis measuring time in each of 1, 10**-1, 10**-2, 10**-3, 10**-6, 10**-8, 10**-9 seconds, I don't find any power of ten strange.
< 1460837364 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And with different epochs, I'm guessing?
< 1460837382 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not measure in 60^-n seconds
< 1460837424 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :1460833804 time goes really slowly!
< 1460837521 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. I missed a Digit 3 event by 9.6508101851852 days. *sigh* I'm always late to everything...
< 1460837566 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: base 60 was very popular back when the ancient babylonians and arabs made calculations, but these days it's out of fashion and everyone uses powers of 2 and powers of 10
< 1460837599 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what about powers of 3?
< 1460837619 0 :rdococ!~rdococ@unaffiliated/octagonfly QUIT :Quit: I have to go :c
< 1460837674 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z-machine uses deciseconds for timeouts, probably because the terminal control interface for UNIX uses deciseconds for input timeouts too.
< 1460837680 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, was this jeans so dark before I put it in the washing machine?
< 1460837798 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you put it in the same machine as some black socks?
< 1460837801 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I can't tell, your client doesn't support active jeans monitoring.
< 1460837979 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(An awkward silence hangs over the room for two minutes.)
< 1460837987 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/two/three/
< 1460838147 0 :Reece`!~Ner@cpc4-wiga13-2-0-cust799.18-3.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460839033 0 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460839039 0 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-66-24.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460839132 0 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-66-24.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460839446 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIS-100 is an interesting game.
< 1460839741 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :"'Tis so."
< 1460839786 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIS-100, or "Semi-esoteric programming, now on Steam!"
< 1460839803 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIS-100, or "we're wasting processing power just buffering values"
< 1460839819 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, we're de-fungotted again.
< 1460839823 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIS-100, or "Timing is everything."
< 1460839854 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460839863 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fungot! You're back! :D
< 1460839868 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIS-100, or "I wish I had a stack."
< 1460839874 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...fungot?
< 1460839874 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: or make the x procedure be a parameter to make. instead of applying ep1 later we're going to get
< 1460839878 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay!
< 1460839888 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :picobit: A stack? Who uses a stack, nowadays?
< 1460839888 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :picobit: It's a bit case-sensitive.
< 1460839901 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION smiles at fizzie
< 1460839924 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, wrong person. Anyway.
< 1460839933 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: me. the Forth-loving dude. :P
< 1460839945 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless TIS-100 is case-sensitive, in which case, nevermind, ignore me)
< 1460839966 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, 'tis was about 'got.
< 1460839982 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it has those stack nodes.
< 1460840007 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :And fungot is also big on stacks, I'd guess.
< 1460840007 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: they generally prefer self evaluating! what a great verb would be a
< 1460840021 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIS-100 has stack nodes?
< 1460840047 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Those separate stacks you send values to.
< 1460840054 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that far in the game yet.
< 1460840057 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a limited size.
< 1460840059 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just bought it)
< 1460840067 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you'll meet them.
< 1460840071 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool.
< 1460840084 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're as inconvenient as everything else in that game.
< 1460840086 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was never much of a fan of "array processors" like this.
< 1460840093 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :you spend more time routing values around than anything.
< 1460840171 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :TODO: give picobit an FPGA
< 1460840172 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Protip: "JRO LEFT" (or any other direction) is super-handy.
< 1460840178 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: already done. :P
< 1460840217 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's (again) inconvenient when editing since you can't use labels for the offsets, but often saves a lot of space.
< 1460840243 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :really reminds me of the green arrays 144.
< 1460840265 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inconvenience is key.
< 1460840269 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I've wondered whether that was an inspiration.
< 1460840271 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise it wouldn't be hard, would it?
< 1460840303 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, not much of a fan. I'd rather a sort of "ring" pipeline.
< 1460840318 0 :picobit!~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you can pick things off at will. lends itself better to asynchronous logic too.
< 1460840332 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The most convenient game is written in one line of shell script, and the line starts with "echo ".
< 1460840334 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1460840342 0 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ds01-214-177.dynamic.mtsallstream.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460840708 0 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460841155 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460841205 0 :gremlins!~Ner@cpc4-wiga13-2-0-cust799.18-3.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460841282 0 :Reece`!~Ner@cpc4-wiga13-2-0-cust799.18-3.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460841735 0 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460842117 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should buy prog.io
< 1460842124 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And make a codewars-like game
< 1460842131 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/codewars/corewar/
< 1460842310 0 :Reece`!~Ner@cpc4-wiga13-2-0-cust799.18-3.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460842329 0 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: TABULAR CHICKEN
< 1460842402 0 :gremlins!~Ner@cpc4-wiga13-2-0-cust799.18-3.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460842457 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idea: programming roguelike
< 1460842459 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Called Progue
< 1460842483 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Oooh
< 1460842495 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: We need a computational class called "C-Complete"
< 1460842522 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd... just be a large finite state automaton
< 1460842526 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where it's TC aside from memory limitations, but the memory may be arbitrarily large-but-finite
< 1460842532 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: See ^
< 1460842556 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a fairly useless computation class
< 1460842566 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's not TC, but it can perform any finite-memory computation given a properly-sized machine
< 1460842568 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's "Is at least as powerful as a finite state automaton"
< 1460842582 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: It's not useful for theory, but it's good for discussing languages
< 1460842588 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[2]: Would BytePusher fall under that?
< 1460842592 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: C is not TC, but its memory has no bounded size
< 1460842606 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[2], yes it does
< 1460842626 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I mean that the size is bounded for a given implementation
< 1460842637 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: But C in general doesn't have a baked-in memory bound
< 1460842643 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: No, but an arbitrary WordWordJump machine would
< 1460842658 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom
< 1460842659 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: WordPusher, which is BytePusher with a CPU other than ByteByteJump
< 1460842664 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :utumno/Utumno is Morgoth's first dungeon. It is where he was defeated, and the Silmarils temporarily reclaimed from him.
< 1460842676 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: WordPusher is a class of machines, while BytePusher is a single machine
< 1460842687 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom
< 1460842688 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :universal property/Universal properties are the best.
< 1460842699 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? free
< 1460842700 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :free? ¯\(°_o)/¯
< 1460842702 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that a joke?
< 1460842720 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom
< 1460842722 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thwackamacallit/A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
< 1460842725 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1460842741 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did I ask of the pool of wisdom
< 1460842756 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slashlearn free/A free structure is one that has no nontrivial identities, except algebraist phrase that in a much fancier way with morphisms.
< 1460842759 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned «free»
< 1460842760 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: Because wisdom is never wrong
< 1460842762 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? free
< 1460842763 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A free structure is one that has no nontrivial identities, except algebraist phrase that in a much fancier way with morphisms.
< 1460842763 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? wisdom
< 1460842764 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
< 1460842766 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mapole
< 1460842769 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
< 1460842770 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: See
< 1460842776 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[2]: which one is a joke?
< 1460842783 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls wisdom/ø*
< 1460842785 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/ø \ wisdom/øl \ wisdom/ørjan
< 1460842796 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Universal Properties
< 1460842804 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ø
< 1460842806 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ø is not going anywhere.
< 1460842808 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Is its `wisdom itself a universal property?
< 1460842810 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` find wisdom -iname "*hpp*"
< 1460842811 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/hppavilion[42] \ wisdom/hppavilion1 \ wisdom/hppavilion[1]
< 1460842821 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hppavilion[1]
< 1460842821 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
< 1460842825 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hppavilion[42]
< 1460842826 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[42] is the awesomest person you will ever meet. Much awesomer than oerjan.
< 1460842927 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hppavilion1
< 1460842928 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
< 1460842974 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`le/rn hppavilion/hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk
< 1460842977 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned «hppavilion»
< 1460843011 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For those wondering, '+'.join([str(random.randrange(-42, 69))+suff for suff in ['', 'i', 'j', 'k', 'ij', 'ik', 'jk', 'ijk']]).replace('+-', '-')
< 1460843044 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[2]: huh... is that python or something?
< 1460843047 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes.
< 1460843080 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A language called Garfield that emphasizes lazy evaluation, generators, iterators, etc.
< 1460843090 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A practical language, that is)
< 1460843099 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, .replace('+-', '-')? doesn't python just have format('{+d}',n) or something?
< 1460843100 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460843117 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It might, but I don't know the format notation
< 1460843132 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1460843267 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Does garfield sound like a good language?
< 1460843347 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does garfield execute on mondays?
< 1460843412 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Garfield's time libraries don't even have a concept of mondays
< 1460843455 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: The metaphor stops at lazy evaluation
< 1460843710 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lasagna dhould be a primitive
< 1460843770 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: It's a serious language to /some/ degree
< 1460843824 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(
< 1460843851 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Well /sorry/
< 1460844147 0 :dingbat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vsemksmtkmhpieza QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1460844981 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zip(d) := {k:v for k, v in d}
< 1460845114 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: It appears that Garfield is largely declarative
< 1460845115 0 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ds01-214-177.dynamic.mtsallstream.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460845396 0 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel QUIT :Quit: earendel
< 1460845825 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read that at least thrice as "Garfield is largely decorative".
< 1460845906 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that's John
< 1460846137 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also thought it was referring to a language called Garfield that had nothing to do with the comic strip.
< 1460846165 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this swipey keyboard can't spell strip.
< 1460846208 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It keeps doing syrup, step, strop, etc.
< 1460846228 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( classic Garfield... this was as funny as it got... http://www.gocomics.com/garfield/1978/06/19 )
< 1460846257 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm kidding. One or two of the later strips are funnier than that.)
< 1460846258 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs
< 1460846302 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you could train a Markov generator to try to write Kányádi Sándor poems
< 1460846345 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I used to read Garfield steps... stripe... steps... syrups... steps... whatever in some magazine.
< 1460846393 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is wrong with that keyboard?
< 1460846406 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you on some touchy mobile device?
< 1460846411 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-193-184.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: probably strip is a dirty word
< 1460846434 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would be much easier to make the output superficially similar than if you tried to imitate Arany János or Weöres Sándor poems.
< 1460846451 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No, I don't mean to say his poems are bad. Just different.)
< 1460846698 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: It's an Android phone, right.
< 1460846730 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think maybe there was a content filter option in the settings.
< 1460846765 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460846823 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I think the swipe algorithm only looks at the shape and not the timing, so there's no way to indicate the difference between "strip" and "strop", the latter of which it deigns to type.
< 1460846923 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should be allowed to type both words and also to be able to type any word you make up by yourself too
< 1460846968 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, can you imitate Kányádi's poems?
< 1460846969 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: bad joke. i typed " not me. it's obvious he's not a lunatic. ;d
< 1460846972 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It pulls up a selection of words from the dictionary and just defaults to picking what it thinks is the likely one.
< 1460846983 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I turned off the "block offensive words" option, but it still doesn't want to strip. Wait. It did.
< 1460846984 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was somewhat approperiate
< 1460846991 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Also, IIRC it lets you add words to the dictionary pretty easy.
< 1460847041 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However using a proper keyboard would be better than using touch-screen anyways.
< 1460847051 0 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1460847054 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It was in the dictionary all the time at least according to spellcheck -- at least it wasn't underlined in red.
< 1460847062 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug*
< 1460847065 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: True.
< 1460847067 0 :atrapado!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1460847076 0 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-curyjjrbiijvionh JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460847105 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a relatively reasonable Bluetooth keyboard for this, but left it at home_2.
< 1460847128 0 :Marcela_Gandara!~canaima@181-17-71-161.dyn.movilnet.com.ve JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460847303 0 :Reece`!~Ner@cpc4-wiga13-2-0-cust799.18-3.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1460847686 0 :dos!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460847734 0 :p34k!~p34k@nat-wh-wz4-12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de QUIT :
< 1460847751 0 :lambda-11235!~lambda-11@47.208.113.50 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460847812 0 :hppavilion[2]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460847933 0 :dos!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write a compiler. Should the language be LISPy or something Cish?
< 1460847987 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :dos: Either way would work. I can suggest to be like LISP
< 1460848036 0 :dos!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: OK
< 1460848039 0 :dos!?@? NICK :hppavilion[1]
< 1460848232 0 :Marcela_Gandara!~canaima@181-17-71-161.dyn.movilnet.com.ve QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1460848300 0 :Marcela_Gandara!~canaima@190-76-210-91.dyn.movilnet.com.ve JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460848333 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@2a02:1811:d22:cc00:657e:581:892e:9885 QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in
< 1460848530 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460849283 0 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1460849579 0 :Marcela_Gandara!~canaima@190-76-210-91.dyn.movilnet.com.ve QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1460849894 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : "decimicrons" -- um, that's 10**-5 meters, right? <-- 10**-7, surely
< 1460849894 0 :Marcela_Gandara!~canaima@190-76-210-91.dyn.movilnet.com.ve JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460849914 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bienvenido Marcela_Gandara
< 1460849918 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh... that's even worse
< 1460849919 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1460849919 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Marcela_Gandara: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
< 1460849988 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom
< 1460849990 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :xyzzy/Nothing happens.
< 1460849991 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@vps.jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460849994 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom
< 1460849995 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric/This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
< 1460850005 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah yeah,
< 1460850007 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knoe
< 1460850009 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom
< 1460850012 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sbus/SBus is the standard bus in many a Sun SPARC-based system, capable of coping with thirty-two (32) bits in parallel, at rates of around 16.67 to 25 MHz. There is a 96-pin connector, and the cards lay parallel to the motherboard, like toppings on a sandwich.
< 1460850266 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh, we're de-fungotted again. <-- . o O ( how long before fizzie breaks down and implements DNS lookup )
< 1460850266 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if fnord p is too much
< 1460850372 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it'll take a bit more to get completely autonomous reconnection
< 1460850437 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you'd also probably need nick collision handling...)
< 1460850493 0 :hydraz!?@? NICK :cnydraz
< 1460850588 0 :me4!~me@38.70.70.115.static.exetel.com.au JOIN :#esoteric
< 1460850662 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1460850705 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow
< 1460850764 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ikr?
< 1460850801 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know how on interent forums people often start a post with something like “I'm surprised nobody mentioned such and such”. I find that somewhat annoyingly superfluous, especially when they do that very quickly before most posters have had a chance to mention anything.
< 1460850826 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is the first time I saw a post starting with basically “I'm surprised I have never mentioned such and such”
< 1460850845 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm surprised you have never seen that before
< 1460850861 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric