00:04:43 `wisdom 00:04:58 irc/IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays. 00:06:29 my quote of the day: IRC is a frontend for google with insults 00:07:14 * boily updates the thing that becomes a PDF ♪ 00:08:21 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:09:47 > ord '*' 00:09:48 42 00:09:58 > ord '#' 00:10:00 35 00:10:09 > ord '$' 00:10:11 36 00:10:42 > map chr [0x20..0x3F] 00:10:44 " !\"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?" 00:19:12 question: is adu someone? 00:20:25 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 00:21:09 hoily 00:21:11 boily: yes. 00:21:31 why e has recently left us, no one knows. 00:21:38 not even emself. 00:22:09 you may not know, but adu 00:22:13 hellochaf. 00:22:24 * boily thwacks shachaf. 0.8. 00:23:00 question: what is Algae II? is it an esolang, or an abstract concept? 00:23:32 `? algae 00:24:05 algae? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 00:24:08 `? alg. ii 00:24:16 Algae II, the successor class to Algae I. Discusses hydroponics and such. 00:24:25 `culprits wisdom/alg. ii 00:24:37 boily: i believe it is a pun on algebra hth 00:24:50 abstract concept it is tdh 00:24:56 boily boily oerjan hppavilion[1] 00:24:58 "Algebra II" is a standard high school mathematics class in the united states hth 00:25:37 but Algae II typically is taught to much younger children 00:25:50 as part of the Hooked on Hydroponics program 00:28:46 ... 00:34:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:34:34 What does this channel think of AOP? 00:34:52 @messages-lud 00:34:52 oerjan said 1h 1m 42s ago: myname: I was just being a bad person. <-- please report to the next #esoteric sensitivity bootcamp hth 00:35:03 hppavellon[1]. how do you typeset an ő? 00:35:14 boily: I don't? 00:35:53 boily: iirc \H{o} 00:35:59 -!- tromp has joined. 00:36:23 #Tromp2016 00:36:58 * oerjan is going to guess tromp has heard enough of those jokes to be sick of them. 00:37:23 oerjan: when did that ever stop this channel before hth 00:37:41 *twh 00:37:46 oerjan: tdh, but I was mislead by the error message. the ős were fine, I just forgot to escape b_jonas' underscore. 00:37:54 s/lead/led/ 00:37:54 aha 00:38:05 oerjan: didn't it read like a rhetorical question hth 00:38:14 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:38:55 ending rhetorical questions in hth is scow. 00:39:16 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:39:28 hm a missed canaima 00:39:48 boily: What are you doing, anyway? 00:40:07 ? canaima 00:40:10 hppavilion[1]: updating the wisdom PDF! 00:40:14 boily: Yay! 00:40:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:40:29 oerjan: what's the correct ending twh 00:40:43 boily: Why not just script it to generate a new wisdom PDF once a month? 00:41:23 `learn Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people that have no idea why they're here. 00:41:37 Learned 'canaima': Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people that have no idea why they're here. 00:41:40 `learn Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here. 00:41:43 Relearned 'canaima': Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here. 00:41:56 oerjan: Um, shachaf forgot to ` 00:42:03 hth 00:42:15 well, that would have just been another line of spam 00:42:22 this outcome was optimal 00:42:35 shachaf: My point is that oerjan didn't check if canaima was already defined 00:42:44 shachaf: Unless they did it via PM 00:42:54 oerjan knows the wisdom database by heart 00:43:02 and anyway `learn confirmed that it wasn't defined 00:43:11 hppavilion[1]: well... it's *slightly* more complex than that. also, some people in this here chännel like to make my life harder by being LaTeXly creative. 00:43:20 I'm already missing: 00:43:22 `? ^ 00:44:00 boily: Ah 00:44:05 ^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the exclusive-or operator; ∧ (also notated by /\ or &) is the and (conjunction) operator; ^ (also notated by ↑ or ** or ⋆) is the power operator. 00:44:40 Wooooooooow. 00:44:46 I somehow never noticed that 00:44:56 _\/_ 00:45:00 \_/ 00:45:02 if you have a Github account, I'll add you to the List. you'll have Full Commit Access! 00:45:16 I do, but I probably should not be trusted with such a thing 00:46:37 boily: Unless you want e.g. a one-sixth-functional industrial-grade search engine for Wisdom that will never be touched again 00:47:07 Though an GUI for browsing wisdom- complete with links and a bit of markup- might actually be a good idea... 00:49:12 doesn't pdf support links these days anyway 00:49:21 oerjan: True 00:49:30 oerjan: But it doesn't have a high-level scripting language 00:57:12 it does. Adobe Reader supports JavaScript. 00:57:41 also, did you know you could embede interactive 3D content in a PDF? in two widely-undocumented idiosyncratic formats? 01:01:06 brontosaurii had mapoly teeth??? 01:04:07 *brontosauri 01:06:36 oerjan: that's not the plural of brontosaurius hth 01:06:47 indeed 01:07:04 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:07:13 it would be the vocative, though. 01:08:17 brontosaure? 01:09:27 presumably. 01:09:37 `le/rn Canada/We apologize for Canada's lack of existence. 01:09:46 Relearned «canada» 01:10:48 -!- tromp has joined. 01:12:14 #tromp2016 01:12:42 AVE BRONTOSAVRE. PINSENDI TE SALUTANT. 01:13:13 boily: hey :( 01:13:32 sorry. 01:13:41 * boily untromp2016s tromp 01:14:00 i meant the canada. what was it anyway, the browser isn't loading. 01:14:04 oh hm 01:14:14 oh there 01:14:37 #c++2017 01:14:43 you want to rebigscotlandify Canada? 01:15:26 oerjan: how about a command to view the previous version of a file 01:15:46 `le/rn Canada/Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big. 01:15:52 or even a list of the contents of every file that the last command modified, pre-modification 01:16:27 Relearned «canada» 01:16:58 boily: hey i wasn't confirming 01:17:33 shachaf: be my guest 01:17:33 aarghghghrghrgghhghghrg. 01:17:49 i was trying to catch up to recent HackEgo changes 01:21:32 -!- centrinia has joined. 01:21:44 `echo a > test 01:21:44 a > test 01:21:46 oops 01:21:50 `` echo a > test 01:21:59 `? code 01:22:04 `` echo b > test 01:22:40 No output. 01:22:48 HackEgo: you're too slow hth 01:23:35 `learn_append comics The content of this list is not to be questioned. 01:24:01 * boily mapoles the HackEgo 01:24:57 fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT! 01:25:53 Can't open wisdom/comic: No such file or directory. \ Learned 'comic': The content of this list is not to be questioned. 01:25:56 [11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,1555466973690094680980000956080767,13720946704494913791885940266665466978579582015128512190078... 01:25:57 No output. 01:26:11 wat 01:27:46 `mkx bin/before//lastfiles | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; hg cat -r -2 "$f"; done 01:27:47 bin/before 01:27:51 `` rm wisdom/comic 01:27:53 No output. 01:27:54 `before 01:27:58 wisdom/comic//The content of this list is not to be questioned. 01:28:05 hm 01:28:09 `lastfiles 01:28:09 wisdom/comic 01:28:10 -!- XorSwap has joined. 01:28:20 why is bin/before not in lastfiles twh 01:28:29 `cat bin/lastfiles 01:28:30 hg log -l 1 --template "{files}\n" 01:28:34 `` echo -n ' The content of this list is not to be questioned.' >>wisdom/comics 01:28:36 No output. 01:28:37 `` hg log -l 1 01:28:40 changeset: 7381:dd55338ff279 \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Apr 14 00:28:35 2016 +0000 \ summary: ` echo -n \' The content of this list is not to be questioned.\' >>wisdom/comics 01:28:49 bon. m'a finir par l'avoir, maudite commande de mes deux. 01:30:26 boily: wat 01:30:29 `? comics 01:30:31 Recommended comics include Genius Stick, Stuck Girl, and Home of the Order. \ The content of this list is not to be questioned. 01:31:08 `revert 01:31:21 rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done. 01:31:23 `? comics 01:31:24 Recommended comics include Genius Stick, Stuck Girl, and Home of the Order. 01:31:47 * boily can't append 01:31:56 `le/rn_append comics/The content of this list is not to be questioned. 01:31:59 Learned 'comics': Recommended comics include Genius Stick, Stuck Girl, and Home of the Order. The content of this list is not to be questioned. 01:32:50 `rm test 01:32:52 No output. 01:32:54 `before 01:32:55 -!- XorSwap has quit (Client Quit). 01:33:01 test//b 01:33:56 ♪ DING ♪ new PDF version! updated #, A, B and C entries. 01:34:14 coppro: copprello! PDF update! 01:35:01 `learn Canada is a conspiracy invented by Big Maple to keep people from the truth. 01:35:04 Relearned 'canada': Canada is a conspiracy invented by Big Maple to keep people from the truth. 01:35:07 `before 01:35:08 wisdom/canada//Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big. 01:35:13 `revert 01:35:15 rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done. 01:35:19 oerjan: hth 01:35:42 boily: :O 01:35:46 boily: Homestuck AND PDF 01:35:51 it's like my birthday! 01:35:53 which was this week! 01:35:55 err last week! 01:35:56 boily: we already have pbflist 01:35:57 but still! 01:36:01 boily: might as well add pdflist hth 01:36:09 if you can figure out how to make a backwards b 01:37:34 I should chapterize the *lists... 01:37:38 d hth 01:38:04 hppavilion[1]: I didn't catch your github username? 01:38:14 boily: I didn't give it :P 01:38:40 damn. I thought I was being smooth :D 01:38:56 you're playing hard to commit, I see. 01:44:21 -!- jix has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:44:28 -!- jix has joined. 01:50:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 01:52:06 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:52:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:52:24 -!- dingbat has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:57:27 -!- Kaynato has joined. 02:01:40 boily: ... 02:02:31 Why has nobody made a language called *C? 02:10:57 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:12:32 hppavilion[1]: one day you'll slip, and that info will be mine. mwah ah ah. 02:18:58 boily: I want to see a grammar-type that can parse all decidable grammars. That would be nice. Except for when people actually use it to parse a non-context-free grammar. Then it's just painful. 02:20:38 eh? 02:21:10 boily: A grammar type (like LR or LALR or Recursive-descent) 02:21:32 boily: That can parse all decidable grammars (including, for example, the Language of Primes in Ternary) 02:22:22 I have a feeling you'd hit Gödel sooner or later in there. probably the former. 02:22:41 boily: The tarpit version is BNF with the new operators $, ++, and --{}{} 02:22:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:23:13 boily: Probably not; It's just the grammatical equivalent of a TM 02:23:24 (TMs represent grammars, remember?) 02:23:36 I don't remember, but I'll trust you on that. 02:23:52 CT and all that sort of thing, functors between TMs and grammars. 02:24:06 boily: Yeah, a TM is said to accept a string (as part of the language it represents) if... it halts. Shit. 02:24:37 I guess Godel might just show up in the form of the Halting Problem 02:24:45 Wow, that guy is tricky. 02:25:04 and strike. 02:25:23 time to go espouse the shape of a mattress... 02:25:30 -!- boily has quit (Quit: GRABBING CHICKEN). 02:25:31 boily: Wait, no, but it's a BNF for all /decidable/ grammars 02:25:33 Shit 02:26:13 @tell boily [the moment after you left:] boily: Wait, no, but it's a BNF for all /decidable/ grammars // And halting is undecidable 02:26:13 Consider it noted. 02:28:34 "LR(k) grammars can be efficiently parsed with an execution time essentially proportional to the length of the string."[7] 02:28:34 For every k≥1, "a language can be generated by an LR(k) grammar if and only if it is deterministic [and context-free], if and only if it can be generated by an LR(1) grammar." 02:28:53 Um, can k be <= 1 and != 0? 02:31:48 Here's a rather strange idea 02:32:03 A parser that accepts an infinite string that follows some combinatorial pattern 02:32:05 And parses it 02:32:09 (based on a grammar) 02:32:11 In finite time 02:32:21 shachaf: Have you heard of such a thing? 02:32:25 ? 02:32:54 Ah. 02:32:55 shachaf: A program to parse infinite strings in finite time, given that the infinite string is representable in finite space 02:33:14 Well, depends on how you represent it. 02:33:16 Using some sort of lazy-evaluated sequence combinators or somesuch 02:33:35 If you represent an infinite string as a Turing machine that generates it, for example, you won't have much luck. 02:33:43 I would doubt it 02:34:22 shachaf: I'm thinking that you have some primitive set of generators (likely hauntingly similar to S and K, knowing the way CS works) that accept generators or strings and produce new strings 02:34:49 Well, you don't want anything Turing-complete. 02:34:56 shachaf: I would think not 02:37:14 A primitive set something like like cycle [...], reverse [...], chain [...], and filter f [...] (where f is some simple String -> Bool function defined in a sublanguage) 02:38:14 Oh, and [...] is a special syntax for directly declaring a sequence 02:38:28 Wait, chain needs to have two arguments 02:38:53 cycle seq is the first element in seq, then the second, then the third, forever 02:39:06 And when it reaches the end it starts over 02:39:26 reverse seq reverses a finite sequence 02:40:00 chain seq tfr returns each element in the first seq, then, when it runs out, each element in the second 02:40:35 And filter f seq returns each element in seq s.t. f returns true 02:42:13 f can be made from q NAND p, contains(seq1, seq2), firstNCharacters(seq, n), and c == d (where c and d are sequences) 02:42:21 Sequences can only contain characters 02:42:29 shachaf: is that a good set of primitives? 02:43:26 Wait, contains has to be contains(seq, c) because f is applied character-by-character (if it isn't, we get dangerously close to tag systems) 02:43:52 Why are you asking me? 02:44:07 shachaf: Because you responded last time 02:44:43 shachaf: And I figured there was a chance that you wanted to see my answer to your ~question 02:57:21 https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/4csbma/kickstarter_nonstarters_the_new_era_of_modern/ 03:03:18 <\oren\> bah, the real future of computers is decimal! 03:03:28 <\oren\> or more like the past 03:06:35 -!- me2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:06:55 -!- me2 has joined. 03:08:35 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 03:09:47 -!- XorSwap has joined. 03:10:04 Sgeo_: I'm going to go cry now 03:10:25 \oren\: The REAL future of computers is in pii-cimal 03:10:41 * oerjan wonders if hppavilion[1] has even heard of a general chomsky grammar. 03:11:15 * hppavilion[1] googles general chomsky grammar 03:12:13 * hppavilion[1] cannot find the wikipedia article on it, and is thus scared 03:14:37 oerjan: Are there any widely-used programming languages which are of a regular grammar? 03:14:42 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:21:02 hppavilion[1]: i think i used the wrong technical term. try chomsky hierarchy. 03:21:32 hppavilion[1]: maybe forth counts :P 03:21:32 oerjan: Well I've heard of /that/ 03:21:39 oerjan: That's what I thought 03:21:48 oerjan: Though doesn't forth have nesting? 03:21:53 Defining new words? 03:22:04 Wait, maybe that doesn't let you nest 03:22:35 maybe not forth then. 03:22:50 i don't know what else would count. 03:23:14 I WILL BE USING Van Wijngaarden grammarS FROM NOW ON 03:23:21 THEY SOUND AWESOME 03:24:16 oerjan: chomsky is a linguist not a general hth 03:24:55 (strictly speaking, I will be using some modification I create that makes it uselessly more powerful; perhaps including the ability to recognize whether a given TM halts in later forms) 03:24:57 or is general chomsky's grammar related to general tso's chicken? 03:27:39 Is there a pseudo-solution to the Halting Problem that, given a program, will tell you whether or not it will halt, with the occasional possibility of false positives or negatives? (I (but not O) is forbidden for simplicity) 03:28:16 It would be cool if there was a pseudo-solution (sort of like those pseudo-counterexamples to Fermat's Last Theorem) that I could write into a compiler to freak out CS students who use it 03:29:07 Yes. 03:29:12 willHalt(_) = true 03:29:17 shachaf: That's cheating 03:29:24 If it doesn't halt, just tell them they haven't run it for long enough. 03:29:40 OK, just run it for BB(n) steps for small n. 03:30:05 shachaf: But you can write a program that /very clearly/ won't halt, but the compiler would still say it will 03:31:03 (alternatively, a language that is /very nearly/- but not quite- TC (including intermediate-level CS experiment problems and the kinds of things a CS student would test with, but excluding really obscure ones), for which halting is decidable) 04:11:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:11:27 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:27:28 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:38:47 -!- tromp has joined. 04:51:39 <\oren\> C without malloc is a push down automaton. 04:53:31 <\oren\> (unless you use undefined behaviour to write our own malloc) 04:55:01 C with or without malloc is a FSA. 04:56:06 <\oren\> oh, right. 04:58:29 pooch-down automaton 04:59:26 On a purely unrelated note, is there a surgeon in the bay area who can replace my head? Because fuck my head. 05:00:23 How's your head? 05:00:55 In quite a bit of pain at the moment! 05:06:41 pikhq: might i interest you in this http://www.amazon.com/On-Having-No-Head-Rediscovery/dp/1878019198 hth 05:06:53 s/this // 05:08:36 Thx 05:13:08 pikhq: do you just mean that you have a headache 05:13:23 Yes. 05:13:57 Which is a common occurance for me. 05:15:53 -!- Kaynato has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:25:34 \oren\: are you sure? (notwithstanding the bounded storage) you can access an arbitrary portion of the stack from C, which is vastly more powerful than PDA 05:26:51 \oren\: one direct counterexample: http://mazonka.com/brainf/stackbfi.c 05:26:58 lifthrasiir: Accessing other stack frames is, of course, UB. :) 05:27:25 pikhq: unless you chain the existing stack frame with a pointer. 05:27:33 Right, yes, that's valid. 05:27:36 stackbfi is exactly that kind of thing 05:27:37 Like what you linked to there. 05:28:00 Neat trick, honestly. 05:28:07 I like that 05:28:09 If very much limited. 05:28:36 I remember a similarly constructed BF interpreter which won in IOCCC 05:29:30 Though it's *slightly* incorrect: there may exist valid negative return values for getchar(). 05:29:40 (i.e. EOF is not the *only* possible return value that's negative) 05:29:50 (this is because char may be signed) 05:30:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:31:01 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:31:25 -!- nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:32:36 -!- yorick has joined. 05:33:12 -!- nisstyre has joined. 05:35:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:35:55 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:46:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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09:42:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:54:25 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar. 10:31:00 -!- rdococ_ has joined. 10:33:01 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:33:24 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 10:33:34 -!- rdaway has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:33:36 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:33:36 -!- hydraz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:34:07 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:34:07 -!- newsham has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:38:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:40:39 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:49:48 -!- coppro has joined. 10:54:09 -!- heroux has joined. 10:54:42 -!- earendel has joined. 11:19:38 -!- boily has joined. 11:21:28 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:30:33 -!- hydraz has joined. 11:30:33 -!- hydraz has quit (Changing host). 11:30:33 -!- hydraz has joined. 11:31:55 -!- newsham has joined. 11:41:07 -!- me2 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:41:27 -!- me2 has joined. 11:45:22 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SCIENTIFIC CHICKEN). 12:03:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:20:32 Is there a way to do "git diff --name-status", "git diff --cached --name-status" or the combination "git status -s" but also show list unchanged files? 12:26:04 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:26:21 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:27:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:28:45 -!- kline_ has changed nick to kline. 12:43:10 -!- jaboja has joined. 12:46:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:46:37 http://hjson.org/ 12:55:20 -!- gamemanj has joined. 13:04:56 -!- me4 has joined. 13:05:39 -!- Froox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:06:04 -!- Froox has joined. 13:08:41 -!- fractal has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:10:58 -!- me2 has quit (*.net *.split). 13:12:34 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:21:30 pikhq: I think even if char is signed, getchar() will return the "unsigned" value as an int 13:30:27 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:35:41 -!- fractal has joined. 13:37:03 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:50:57 -!- p34k has joined. 14:10:06 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 14:14:50 -!- _rdococ has joined. 14:17:07 -!- p34k has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:15 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:15 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:16 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:22 -!- nortti has joined. 14:17:28 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:17:34 -!- coppro has joined. 14:17:54 -!- me4 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:54 -!- rdococ_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:55 -!- acertain has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:55 -!- digitalcold has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:18:03 -!- digitalcold has joined. 14:18:11 -!- me4 has joined. 14:18:17 -!- yorick has joined. 14:19:03 -!- acertain has joined. 14:19:18 -!- earendel has joined. 14:22:20 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:28:09 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:41:31 -!- I has joined. 14:41:51 -!- I has changed nick to Guest42662. 14:47:11 -!- p34k has joined. 14:47:52 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:48:28 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:48:29 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:48:53 -!- Melvar has joined. 14:49:04 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:49:04 -!- digitalcold has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:49:05 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:49:05 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:49:06 -!- Yurume_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:49:28 -!- gamemanj has joined. 14:49:50 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 14:50:34 -!- digitalcold has joined. 14:50:55 -!- yorick has joined. 14:50:55 -!- yorick has quit (Changing host). 14:50:55 -!- yorick has joined. 14:52:37 -!- Yurume_ has joined. 14:56:00 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:03:34 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 15:07:50 -!- heroux has joined. 15:30:30 -!- Guest42662 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:35:04 -!- I has joined. 15:35:11 * gamemanj sees that "yorick" joined, and is tempted to reset the "Shakespeare reference counter"... 15:35:29 -!- I has changed nick to Guest25716. 15:53:15 -!- Elronnd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:53:37 -!- Guest25716 has changed nick to `^_^v. 16:03:25 -!- Elronnd has joined. 16:03:36 -!- Elronnd has quit (Client Quit). 16:06:40 -!- j-bot has joined. 16:07:42 -!- Elronnd has joined. 16:08:27 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:21:48 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:31:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:35:17 Why the heck can't we finally have a programming language standard library specification where the array sort functions and ordered-dictionary types and similar are specified in such a way that they spell out the precise guarantees even if the underlying comparison function is nondeterministic or not transitive? 16:36:16 We don't live in the 1980s anymore when it made sense to write quicksort functions that will actually write the arrays out of bounds if the comparison function is invalid. 16:37:05 I think most of the implementations we actually use are behaved sanely even for wrong comparison functions, but nobody bothers to guarantee this in specs, so I may have to read and fork existing implementations just to be able to guarantee this in the future. 16:37:18 If the comparison function is nondeterministic or not transitive, then... is there any one correct sorted order? 16:37:40 C++ specifically makes it undefined behaviour if you use a wrong comparison function, so it can use one of those qsort functions that just crash. 16:38:31 gamemanj: no, but the sort function can still guarantee that it gives a permutation of the input, which is important, and it could still give bounds on the runtime. 16:41:08 The specs can even go further, for compare functions that are partly well-behaved: if the range of values has a (non-observable theoretical) partial equivalence sigma, and a total order on the equivalence classes of sigma, and the comparison function behaves consistently right for two non-equivalent elements by comparing their equivalence classes, and can behave in any way for two equivalent elements; 16:41:41 Simple solution: Why do you even have non-deterministic comparison functions in your code? 16:42:00 then a well-written sort function could guarantee that the output is a permutation of the input such that non-equivalent elements are ordered correctly in the output. 16:43:45 Under what practical situation do you get into such a situation? 16:43:47 gamemanj: for bug isolation in cases when the comparison has a bug (I can point to at least one such case), or for implementing a safe high-level language that isn't allowed to crash but exposes a sort function or ordered-dictionary type with arbitrary comparison functions defined in that high-level language, including possibly sandbox languages that execute untrusted code. 16:44:01 s/comparison/comparison implementation/ 16:45:00 The first case is entirely practical, for in theory you'd just implement the correct comparison function instead of a buggy one. 16:45:10 Bug isolation, ok, that makes sense. As for a safe language that isn't allowed to crash... new byte[0xFFFFFFFF] 16:45:15 The second one is both theoretical and practical. 16:45:35 -!- Reece` has joined. 16:46:12 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:46:48 "Safety" is impossible if the user can consume all the resources on the system, which means a completely safe language has to keep track of memory and CPU usage. 16:46:52 gamemanj: oh come on, there are various different definitions for what sort of safety a language guarantees. I know a language (whether safe or not) can't be total, but some languages guarantee that they at least abort safely rather than trashing memory, even if you run out of memory. That's definitely theoretically possible (although there are practical bugs in implementations). 16:47:19 gamemanj: I'm not going to try to spell out a particular definition of safety here, and there's more than one non-equivalent ones. 16:47:39 The point I'm trying to make is that if sort goes into an infinite loop, there needs to be detection in place for this sort of case anyway. 16:47:57 But even for a not-really-safe language like perl, it's better to use perl 5.8 (or something) which has a sort function that doesn't just segfault if you give it the wrong comparison function (as a bug). 16:49:23 gamemanj: you can write a sort that doesn't go into an infinite loop even if the comparison function is wrong, but I'm more worried about duplicating and losing items of the array, or indexing past an array, rather than an infinite loop. Bad sort implementations do the latter two. 16:49:54 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:53:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:55:47 Well, a sort function should definitely not SIGSEGV or outright break if it's given a weird comparison function. To me, an infinite loop makes sense simply because if it's inconsistent, the array is never "sorted". 17:05:52 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:11:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:27:48 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:51:25 -!- iconmaster has joined. 17:51:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 17:52:04 I have managed to convince myself to a point of view where I don't see Hitler as evil. 17:52:18 This is cool. 17:52:34 well, not really 17:52:40 ... 17:53:50 gamemanj: I see him as a deeply disturbed man who should have been seeing a psychiatrist instead of being put into a position of power 17:54:12 (and, if myname was responding to me, then the above message is directed at them too) 17:54:13 So, basically, you don't see him as evil, you see him as nuts. 17:54:17 gamemanj: Yes 17:54:34 ...the difference? 17:54:54 gamemanj: In fact, I prefer to see him as a person who genuinely /thought/ he was doing the right thing, but who was so screwed up that he didn't realize that what he was doing very clearly wasn't 17:54:54 how does being nuts imply not being evil? 17:55:05 myname: See ^ 17:55:11 myname: Insanity defense, probably. 17:55:16 Now, it's not necessarily the accurate interpretation 17:55:25 But it's a pretty decent interpretation 17:55:36 so, you basically say chaotic evil doesn't have to be evil? 17:55:38 And now for something completely different to break hppavilion[1]'s doublethink concentration: "Alas, poor yorick! I knew him, Horatio: A fellow of infinite jest..." 17:55:51 (I mean, Gravity also isn't "necessarily the accurate interpretation") 17:56:04 gamemanj: It's not doublethink 17:56:37 Ok, true, it's not contradictory, it's just... how to put it... 17:57:20 If you want to go into alternate theories like that, you might want to look at the British Empire and the state of India around that time. 17:57:42 Then you'll find yourself saying "Everybody was like that at the time, Hitler was just a step further" 17:57:51 i wouldn't say that i need to believe i am evil is a necessary part in being evil 17:58:05 gamemanj: If we keep viewing Hitler as an alien-warlord-god-king sent from hell to do nothing but kill humanity, we lose sight of what is more accurate, that being that hitler was a deeply damaged human being who /really/ shouldn't have been put in control of a country 17:58:32 that still doesn't make him not evil 17:59:02 Nobody said Hitler was an alien-warlord-god-king, and everybody agrees he shouldn't have been put in control of a country. Actions define morality, unless they have good justification. 17:59:07 myname: What he did was most certainly very, /very/ wrong, but if he does not realize that then I can't in good conscience consider him evil 17:59:30 s/does/did/ 18:00:11 how so? 18:00:30 This POV is not so much a meaningful opinion on things that matter as it is a way of conveying a message about the nature of morality 18:00:36 So in your worldview, if I teleported the world's gold into the Sun, but I thought the gold was infectious or something, then I wouldn't be evil? 18:00:43 `olsit 1033 18:00:43 /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: olsit: not found 18:00:45 gamemanj: Correct 18:00:46 * gamemanj gets out his TODO list 18:00:49 `olist 1033 18:00:50 olist 1033: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 18:00:55 gamemanj: Why would you be considered evil? 18:01:17 * gamemanj writes "1. Reprogram mind to assert that gold is infectious" 18:01:26 gamemanj: That's cheating. 18:01:37 My past self would be evil, 18:01:42 Yes 18:01:43 but my post-mindwipe self would not. 18:01:47 Pretty much 18:02:10 Which means my post-mindwipe self gets off scot-free since that's the version of me running around teleporting gold. 18:02:23 hppavilion[1]: have a look at the anime "eden of the east" 18:02:33 gamemanj: You (post-mindwipe) were just trying to help and do what you thought was right, so you can't be considered evil 18:02:45 myname: I might 18:02:48 yes you can 18:03:06 myname: To consider them evil would be a perversion of the concept of right and wrong, IMHO 18:03:16 why shouldn't i be able to consider someone evil just because he doesn't himself? 18:04:15 myname: Because, traditionally (in the way everyone else sees it), evil means doing morality-- things even though you know they're morality--. 18:04:28 no 18:04:42 gamemanj: myname: The point of this exercise is not that "Hitler wasn't evil", the point is "Morality is hard, justice is complicated" 18:05:00 evil in a society means doing things against morality of the society, no matter of you actually knowing or not 18:05:14 myname: That can be how you define it, but that's not how I define it 18:05:28 hppavilion[1]: Solution: Eliminate justice, as it is an unnecessary complexity. 18:05:48 myname: I would call "doing stuff that society says you shouldn't do" is a "Moral Transgression" or something. 18:06:11 that's how societies work 18:06:13 myname: "evil" is when you sin (which is not the religious term, it's just one I stole from religion) 18:06:23 So, basically, you have "doing something wrong but not knowing about it", "doing something wrong and knowing about it"? 18:06:39 The result is still the same. 18:06:54 yeah, i would call it intentional evil and unintentional evil 18:06:58 myname: And sinning is to violate morality despite knowing that morality says not to 18:07:04 myname: That works; the end result is the same 18:07:19 myname: But I prefer to give them distinct names; just my preference. 18:07:20 just because you don't intend to do evil doesn't mean you don't 18:07:28 I'm pretty sure that if you drank a ton of alcohol, and then, being too drunk to remember that you aren't supposed to drunk-drive, drove a car, and it crashed, you would still lose your license. 18:07:45 hppavilion[1]: so you are saying killing a person isn't a sin if i don't know better? 18:07:52 myname: Correct. 18:07:57 myname: This isn't religious sin 18:08:14 myname: OK, but should someone who commits an unintentional evil be punished? (assuming retributivism, which is a debate unto itself) 18:08:19 hppavilion[1]: i repeat my anime recommendation: eden of the east 18:08:24 myname: Yes, I will write that down 18:08:29 it plays a bit with the idea of gamemanj 18:09:14 another anime with a "fun" idea of morals: Death Note! 18:09:14 myname: The idea of gamemanj? 18:09:28 gamemanj: There's an anime about the mere concept of you? 18:09:34 not that I know of 18:09:47 If there is, do tell them to stop stalking me 18:10:35 (and inquire as to how they'd manage it without my noticing if the whole anime was about the concept of me, meaning they'd have to keep a close eye) 18:10:36 well, if you ever do anything remotely like watching anime, you most likely have alreqdy watched death note 18:10:44 myname: I chose the word "sin" because it fits with religion well 18:11:01