< 1457481609 659098 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's much dumber than that. < 1457481615 645427 :spiette!~spiette@x-132-204-251-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1457481662 890063 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It just maintains a stack of open punctuation, skips (or filters out, I forget what) if the model tries to generate any closing punctuation that doesn't match, and forcibly closes anything that was left open at the end. < 1457481856 451483 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1457481904 162609 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so let's see, the first game starts in 4 hours? < 1457481915 623322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yurume: I don't think it's capable of communicating in anything but go boards < 1457481931 657392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :destroying everything with just go moves would be difficult, if potentially not completely impossible < 1457481943 117205 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoo! < 1457481954 21695 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just found out my TeX distribution came with Metafont! < 1457481954 163443 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And time controls are 2h + 3x1min byo-yomi... serious. < 1457481990 652274 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never met-a-font... < 1457481991 178927 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sounds like a question for yudkowsky < 1457481992 736378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, how does that time control work? < 1457482002 993877 :Yurume!23f9939a@121.78.85.35 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : no problem, afaik it HAS to communicate with an amateur (6d iirc) go player, so AlphaGo may convince him to make a broader contact < 1457482031 529637 :Yurume!23f9939a@121.78.85.35 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1min per (half) move? not sure < 1457482083 745713 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yurume: hey your nick implies you might secretly be yudkowsky < 1457482089 412038 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, basically you have 3 minutes and after each (half) move the timer is rounded up to full minutes again < 1457482091 232778 :Yurume!23f9939a@121.78.85.35 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha < 1457482114 45623 :Yurume!23f9939a@121.78.85.35 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan : I did enjoy Crystal Society < 1457482124 548553 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm have i read that < 1457482129 608762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh, so once the 2h runs out you have 1 minute per move, + 2 more minutes at any time you like < 1457482134 394372 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-ecpfmtbfwjsihlcq QUIT :Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite! < 1457482137 885452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an interesting way to do a time control < 1457482138 822423 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they announce that a player has 3 (or 2, or 1) byo-yomi periods left. < 1457482148 290216 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at this new language < 1457482163 15158 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm obviously not < 1457482164 590791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: oh, I ignore links unless someone gives me a good reason to follow them, and sometimes even then < 1457482205 515244 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could take a screenshot of the page < 1457482212 347638 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :and post it directly to the chat < 1457482218 331980 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :would thah help < 1457482258 571347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at the page < 1457482265 247968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but decided not to care about it much < 1457482282 921933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically just a non-English language that picks a particularly obscure language for encoding its keywords, isn't it? < 1457482287 652102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the semantics aren't special < 1457482294 101736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's in the same category as LOLCODE really < 1457482327 211079 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-putbkocggbwvfnlt JOIN :#esoteric < 1457482399 593312 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats the word on the game? < 1457482412 250247 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: i'm sorry i cannot take this seriously as long as it doesn't have a linear type system hth < 1457482417 25309 :lambda-11235!~lambda-11@47.208.113.50 JOIN :#esoteric < 1457482435 840996 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea! < 1457482439 624882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, you seem to be following the ais523 system of esolang design, except with more puns < 1457482479 501347 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1457482530 574027 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear type system means... how do types compose? < 1457482566 765641 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: it means a type system curry-howard equivalent to linear logic hth < 1457482570 709659 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask shachaf for details < 1457482586 679822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: typically, a linear type system is one in which you have to use each lambda binding exactly once < 1457482598 910343 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear logic is pretty cool < 1457482616 6707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this normally involves calling helper functions just to copy and/or delete data < 1457482630 21902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if your data is of an ADT, you can typically write functions to copy and delete it recursively) < 1457482642 888196 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if anyone is really applying linear logic in programming well though? < 1457482656 557587 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"well"? < 1457482670 631767 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I was thinking about linear logic. < 1457482676 10772 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: well, Verity (the language I work with in my day job) is affine < 1457482684 345715 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh cool!!!!!! < 1457482685 98421 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Clean with their uniqueness types still a thing? < 1457482688 621761 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to look into that < 1457482691 877626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, not technically affine on the front-end; if your program isn't affine, though, the compiler will rewrite it so that it is < 1457482698 530265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :producing a warning in the program < 1457482700 357616 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's very interesting! < 1457482706 525006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(affine is like linear, except that you can discard data if you want to) < 1457482725 443269 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.veritygos.org/language < 1457482755 405523 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't rust types also somewhat related < 1457482761 770823 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't actually know < 1457482770 972499 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses some kind of region based thing < 1457482773 534905 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how you might extend it to involve Rust-like "borrowed reference" types. < 1457482778 867477 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Rust's typing system is affine. < 1457482780 76288 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rust types have some affine-like behaviour but it's much more complex < 1457482872 421290 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sounds verbose/redundant. what are the advantages? < 1457482877 864655 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess the way it would work is something like this. If T is a type, and a is a symbol, then ref_a T is a type. < 1457482892 79060 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have reference count type system < 1457482903 805454 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe ? < 1457482908 576633 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: in our case, the affine restriction is only on things that happen in parallel, this means that the language is provably race-free < 1457482921 53399 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :woww < 1457482923 775544 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a nice idea < 1457482930 940981 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then, uh, what was it. < 1457482941 780259 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that said, we have shared-memory concurrence that introduces the races again, generating special variables with multiple sets of read/write ports; however you get a warning if that happens) < 1457482952 330597 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and what are the advantages of full linearity? < 1457482970 594925 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is my understanding of it: < 1457482976 873334 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :* normal lambda calculus: Heap allocated data with GC < 1457482985 771104 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: as opposed to being affine? I'm not sure of any offhand, which may be why people don't use it < 1457482991 560745 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1457483000 852125 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Linear lambda calculus: head allocated with statically known collection < 1457483005 417458 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what field of application is verity for? < 1457483009 450331 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Affine/substructural: Stack allocation < 1457483014 976981 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can mix them too < 1457483068 751714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: hardware design < 1457483083 884978 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wadler has shown that with basic linear type systems all your datat has a certain 'shape' < 1457483086 963403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea's that it makes it possible to design hardware in a language rather higher level than VHDL or Verilog < 1457483095 780742 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :a non-linaer 'heap' with linear trees from it < 1457483096 317704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that hardware design should be much faster and cheaper < 1457483109 309432 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : ah... so basically it's trying to do the same thing as verilog but better? :D < 1457483130 244595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: it's like writing in algol rather than asm :-) < 1457483154 239905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(why algol? because it's about the right level of primitiveness for how far we've got with hardware, and because Verity is an Algol 60 derivative) < 1457483168 459758 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not old enough for algol to have that much meaning to me but ok :D < 1457483244 893118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, algol had basically died out by the time I was born < 1457483251 864893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't mean that I couldn't learn it after the fact < 1457483272 101653 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are still working algol 60 compilers around (something that surprised my boss when I used one to gather benchmarks for a paper) < 1457483283 112825 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given T |- U, and ref_a U |- V, you can get T |- U ⊗ V, as long as T, U, and V don't contain ref_a. That sounds more or less right. < 1457483334 373775 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, ref_a is... whatever you call that property where you can take one copy of it and get n copies of it for any natural number n. < 1457483343 442187 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can... contract and weaken it? < 1457483351 44524 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1457483352 562780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear logic calls it ! < 1457483358 360140 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust has a Copy trait that's similar < 1457483380 735832 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an operator, not a property of terms. < 1457483382 843504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Verity, the only things that are primitively copyable are integers, but the compiler will add extra copies of things in the source code if you might need to copy them < 1457483395 966903 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: ah right < 1457483413 713962 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could have a rule saying ref_a |- !ref_a. < 1457483464 808149 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :so linear logic isnt't useful for programming really < 1457483476 744027 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why cyclone invented regions < 1457483478 247598 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: what makes you say that? < 1457483484 47589 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just explained why < 1457483485 533229 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1457483492 841904 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was weird that rust came out of nowhere < 1457483499 33083 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of people just fixing the cyclone compiler < 1457483512 668278 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? nih < 1457483513 323381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they wanted to design a proper language from the ground up < 1457483520 349870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just for the region inference but for all the other things too < 1457483522 232457 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NIH was /not/ invented by Taneb. < 1457483537 762064 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number of text encodings I've converted to/from in my code: 5 < 1457483585 777425 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :utf8, latin-1 (which really means windows codepage whatever), utf16, shift-jis, euc-jp < 1457483625 361938 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that number is 4 more than I would like :/ < 1457483660 940034 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad what code < 1457483662 466147 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What program is it? < 1457483680 894899 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila : text-to-pronunciation < 1457483693 6645 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh that's interesting! < 1457483693 870262 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for english, french, and now japanese < 1457483738 476423 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: you would like to convert between one encoding? < 1457483746 626457 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1457483764 382462 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :A separate program should be used for encoding instead I think < 1457483769 422535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: windows-1252 is the latin1ish one < 1457483796 837871 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah windows-1252 is "latin-1 in practice" < 1457483811 158784 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can explain how to convert between one encoding. < 1457483814 708889 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1457483826 972887 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : user input comes in utf8 < 1457483842 668185 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for french I turn it into utf16 to tokenize it < 1457483858 429231 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because raw utf8 is inconvenient < 1457483864 354369 :jgcruzh!~jcruzh@206.248.102.200 JOIN :#esoteric < 1457483872 714887 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you writing in C or something? < 1457483900 678091 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual dictionary part recognizes latin-1 (aka windows-1252) and nothing else because that's what you need for french anyways < 1457483910 19472 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sounds mad < 1457483925 173384 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not convert it to Windows-1252 to tokenize it? < 1457483925 533952 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it does a binary search through the mass of data and I wouldn't want to have it do it in utf-8 data < 1457483945 706336 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :impressively complex program < 1457484009 818046 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett : mostly so that it can handle japanese input if it's present in the stream < 1457484017 112711 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF8<->UTF16 does not require character conversion tables, at least < 1457484032 866088 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, have you seen thot talk by conal elliot about using CCCs to compile stuff to hardware < 1457484037 557968 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1457484045 339623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: no < 1457484046 106555 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latin-1 conversion is hardwired also < 1457484048 176703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "CCCs"? < 1457484065 840025 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only takes latin-1 accent characters and oe ligatures < 1457484081 657629 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh! does anyone know a good library for doing operations like wcwidth() that uses char32_t rather than wchar_t (which doesn't handle astral planes on Windows)? < 1457484087 202850 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://begriffs.com/posts/2015-06-28-haskell-to-hardware.html < 1457484090 694901 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the video it,s really good < 1457484103 976927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, video :-( < 1457484110 200766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we get something in text form? < 1457484113 148321 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : isn't it possible to do an std::string or something like that? < 1457484117 850498 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://conal.net/blog/posts/haskell-to-hardware-via-cccs < 1457484118 390800 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget < 1457484134 413860 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you can learn the things that are in the video from this text < 1457484139 192296 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: would that have a wcwidth operation? < 1457484179 380209 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: oh, the Verity compiler can do lambda to hardware via CCC already < 1457484184 635131 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1457484186 116714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only we use a game semantics translation < 1457484192 778980 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats why i brought this up < 1457484261 885472 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : what does wcwidth() use normally? utf16 char? < 1457484271 950904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses wchar_t < 1457484280 528427 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which... is 16bits right? < 1457484285 870636 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's implementation-defined < 1457484291 23225 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1457484301 339215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the interpretation of it is sometimes configurable at runtime via locale, too < 1457484307 97313 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie another stupid thing that will break < 1457484312 720024 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, the most common choices are UTF-16 on Windows and UTF-32 on Linux < 1457484335 913177 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANOTHER STUPID THING THAT WILL BREAK < 1457484338 955584 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely < 1457484345 807696 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking for something like this, except locked to UTF-32 < 1457484349 733959 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :C.A.R. Hoare on algol: "Here is a language so far ahead of its time that it was not only an improvement on its predecessors but also on nearly all its successors." < 1457484356 564620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus less fragile < 1457484362 372632 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(60) < 1457484370 749754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: when was that spoken? < 1457484371 263790 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice one < 1457484376 526924 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :std::string in theory should work < 1457484402 72836 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :C.A.R. Hoare is good < 1457484408 895698 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you will probably have to roll your own utf8<->utf16<->utf32 conversion < 1457484428 653509 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think what most apps do is: < 1457484439 127047 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :break if any non base plane character ever appears < 1457484444 134022 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the end < 1457484527 768921 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a program to write into a music file, the internal text (for titles and so on) in the music file is UTF-16, therefore I made my program to accept input in UTF-8 that is why (because UTF-8 is compatible with ASCII and UTF-16 is not) < 1457484533 674072 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously how do we end up with data types that change width between msvc and posix like that < 1457484535 638425 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: this is the reasoning I used for not supporting astral plane in libuncursed 1 on Windows (on the basis that the programs we're communicating with wouldn't handle it either) < 1457484543 297338 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in libuncursed2 I'd like to do it correctly < 1457484569 918263 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows have to support wchar_t due to how the api uses it < 1457484575 717813 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :really grody < 1457484621 476963 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, all the Windows Unicode APIs are wchar_t interpreted, IIRC, as UTF-16 < 1457484622 263334 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at work we have a type called plgstring that's defined as std::wstring on win32 and std::string on IOS < 1457484630 964216 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's all over the place < 1457484638 881413 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of exactly that < 1457484655 779159 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No you should need UTCE instead, much simpler and more consistent use of wcwidth() and so on is possible with it. < 1457484681 397514 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's UTCE? < 1457484705 649804 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/utce < 1457484710 599031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks < 1457484764 373750 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, locales are horrible and should never be used < 1457484768 929853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what I'm doing is indeed about terminals; however, that encoding does not seem to handle all of Unicode < 1457484781 937718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: for encoding, you mean? or in general? < 1457484792 781245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LC_MESSAGES appears to work pretty well at handling its intended function < 1457484816 57668 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the C++ locale thing < 1457484816 767036 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is true, UTCE does not (and is deliberately not supposed to) handle all of Unicode. < 1457484837 326054 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know much about the occult < 1457484849 735175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: in my case, I don't want to output characters that the user's terminal might not be able to handle, but I do want to be able to echo anything that the user inputs < 1457484850 475029 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: 1973, alas < 1457484850 820130 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much about it < 1457484857 336360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which could theoretically be any unicode character their computer supports < 1457484862 497242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: in that case, I would say Hoare is correct < 1457484866 920157 :jgcruzh!~jcruzh@206.248.102.200 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1457484871 982983 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :when would hoare be wrong? < 1457484873 606008 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "nearly" qualifier ensures that that is the case < 1457484886 970604 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can think of scheme < 1457484889 461219 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If UTCE encoding is used then you can very easily echo anything that the user inputs, including characters which are not in Unicode < 1457484890 799294 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :as being better than algol < 1457484895 829543 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages-lud < 1457484895 963242 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan said 9h 49m 36s ago: \oren\: Say, how do you prove associativity and commutativity? <-- there is no one method. sometimes you can just expand equations using things you already know. sometimes you can check all cases. sometimes you need a genuinely new trick. < 1457484895 963303 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan said 9h 48m 31s ago: generally you want to know as many tricks as possible that you can use, that goes for all math. < 1457484902 153233 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :and close enough for the comparison to make sense < 1457484909 53873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, I note that zzo38 found the same problem with G0/G1 in theory as I discovered in practice < 1457485030 414003 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : what bank is Ý on? < 1457485063 909036 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, can i hawve persmission to dowload all of your text files folder? < 1457485083 591564 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, suddenly gray.tfm is missing < 1457485308 341 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 3 different encodings for japanese is because the code for the lexical analyzer I'm adapting supports all 3 < 1457485319 158865 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it uses libiconv to convert < 1457485325 70158 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is under lgpl < 1457485349 382085 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish METAFONT had more clear errors :,( < 1457485349 515564 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since I don't want to lug around an extra DLL around I have to roll my own basically < 1457485359 127050 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just tells me a file is missing, not where it expects it < 1457485382 372187 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So even if I make or obtain a new one, I have no clue where to put it < 1457485382 638508 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can't statically link against an LGPL lib < 1457485399 928429 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ds01-214-177.dynamic.mtsallstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457485409 334497 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You've used METAFONT, correct? < 1457485520 39320 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: Yes I have used METAFONT < 1457485545 626175 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Did you ever get an error where suddenly gray.tfm vanished? < 1457485551 619627 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: For no apparent reason? < 1457485553 209875 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No I have not < 1457485564 874761 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you know where gray.tfm should be located at least? < 1457485575 421358 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently not in fonts/tfm/public/misc < 1457485576 484925 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a question zzo < 1457485586 719384 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: You can, although I recommend only to copy the files you need, and to wait until the night time when I may be sleeping < 1457485595 316216 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill wait! < 1457485725 218587 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Would you just recommend I reinstall MiKTeX completely? < 1457485730 54879 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It seems like overkill < 1457485739 603550 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : I'm sorta designing a cpu in verilog these days, I guess it would be easier to do it in verity? < 1457485747 921369 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But I really have no clue where to put gray.tfm < 1457485769 557511 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :install texlive rather than miktex... < 1457485770 725733 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: Perhaps look at the MiKTeX documentation? < 1457485775 920264 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Perhpas < 1457485781 588732 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: you're going to get more efficiency in verilog, just like asm is more efficient than most higher-levle languages < 1457485789 847223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also verity doesn't do pipelining yet (that's what I'm working on atm) < 1457485932 185562 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: However, note that the files are there for being downloaded and that you are not prohibited from downloading them; I am just suggesting, probably you do not need all of them, and/or you probably should not load the server too much. < 1457485969 806677 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's why I asked= < 1457485998 274141 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : I've seen a paper on bluespec verilog, where basically they use Queues between stages instead of registers < 1457486003 567715 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm warming up to the idea < 1457486020 639782 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes stall handling more local < 1457486047 317713 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: well a fixed-max-size queue is pretty easy to write in an HDL < 1457486054 126060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they tend to be specifically optimized by the compilers, too < 1457486057 318457 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1457486057 800618 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Can't find anything :/ < 1457486061 959658 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck you, knuth < 1457486064 251018 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck you < 1457486080 102514 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a first-word-fallthrough queue for that yes < 1457486092 578894 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Giant errors are intimidating, but at least tell you what's wrong) < 1457486106 694726 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably have to add some reset signal to the queue though < 1457486111 641193 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for branch prediction fails < 1457486118 989837 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and exceptions/interrupts < 1457486225 631143 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck it, just reinstalling MiKTeX and hoping for the best < 1457486393 396928 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any linux kernel hacker here? < 1457486420 432733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subject: ?spam? Live The trucker Life With A--Job - That Let's You - Get - Out,--and-drive < 1457486436 892397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: not sure about hacker; I've inspected bits of the source before now but they're probably the wrong bits < 1457486450 11741 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1457486468 551860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that spambot has a pretty unusual use of whitespace and hyphens < 1457486471 623553 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I can't drive < 1457486481 612230 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1457486496 907350 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :my grandma can < 1457486510 833794 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, i'm interested in the ptrace syscall for a thing and i think i found a bug < 1457486520 816787 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta play nice to get a license :/ < 1457486540 891268 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose process1 traces process2, and both are unprivileged < 1457486559 272373 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if root tries to trace process2, it can't < 1457486560 913628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: I don't have enough concentration, it would be dangerous < 1457486581 76410 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :driving isn't dangerous < 1457486583 410439 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on < 1457486591 656348 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody ever died driving < 1457486605 281985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :driving without huge amounts of attention and awareness of your surroundings is dangerous < 1457486610 794561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once managed to walk into a car :-( < 1457486616 562062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(luckily it was waiting in traffic at the time) < 1457486623 386694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even in retrospect I'm not entirely sure how < 1457486632 580636 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :you managed to walk into a car that wasn't even moving? < 1457486638 245814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1457486674 830158 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION smells insurance fraud < 1457486690 981050 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't claim insurance on it! it was definitely my fault < 1457486694 240864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the car was uninjured < 1457486699 571359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it had no reason to claim insurance either < 1457486722 904247 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1457486752 561452 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd be pretty impressed if you managed to actually damage a car by walking into it < 1457486758 908497 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you, a hulk? < 1457487006 539852 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: who says it's a bug that root can't trace process 2? < 1457487025 599156 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know < 1457487070 274328 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it should, and that unprivileged processes shouldn't be able to prevent root from doing something < 1457487194 814676 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it look like a bug? < 1457487205 139713 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"huh, I note that zzo38 found the same problem with G0/G1 in theory as I discovered in practice" is meaning what problem do you mean exactly? < 1457487360 990209 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that if you have a character set for G0 that can represent all the characters you used, then G1 is redundant, and thus often causes problems when people try to use it because it turns out not to be the character set they expected < 1457487416 534227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and (probably due to termcap) a lot of programs assume things about the contents of G1 without forcing those assumptions to be true < 1457487466 170298 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1457487546 674802 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i have a driver's licence which i got when i was 18, but in my 30s i stopped feeling confident enough to drive, for much the same reason as you < 1457487606 257518 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't even sure if the licence is still valid, he vaguely recalls reading somewhere that they might start expiring them. < 1457487643 977387 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :you sound old < 1457487700 718670 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :45 < 1457487703 583195 :mihow!~mihow@c-24-21-209-185.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457487715 718315 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :old < 1457487719 536380 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1457487727 832549 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOOLLD *COUGH* < 1457487736 46673 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waves cane at izabera  < 1457487866 426723 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it didn't help that i only drove regularly in the brief year or so from i got the license until my dad's old car caught fire < 1457487963 558226 :earendel2!~earendel@176.6.123.62 JOIN :#esoteric < 1457487964 231327 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the worst part of which wasn't the car itself - i got out quickly enough - but that my mother stormed out of the house just as the entrance filled with smoke, we couldn't get in again and the whole house had to be washed down) < 1457488027 444664 :earendel2!~earendel@176.6.123.62 PART :#esoteric < 1457488028 21567 :Alejandro15!~roo@201.243.161.139 JOIN :#esoteric < 1457488035 978790 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1457488038 179100 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because she left the door open < 1457488187 303852 :Alejandro15!~roo@201.243.161.139 PART :#esoteric < 1457488224 388035 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION resolves to drop funny anecdotes and stick to puns < 1457488238 584540 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel JOIN :#esoteric < 1457488743 38725 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: actually i think thats the most enjoyable thing ive yet heard from you < 1457488792 871921 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : lua is a good choice, it's just that very few languages like this do determinism <-- some people are having a heap of trouble trying to get ghc to produce deterministic output to work better with nix-style management < 1457488822 980916 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: yay! i ... think? < 1457488832 34640 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1457488956 350561 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: RETROSPECTIVE CHICKEN < 1457488961 368565 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1457489191 244850 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what all of the atoms in the X server mean? I happen to have many atoms installed, many of which I do not know what they are for. There is one that says "ENLIGHTENMENT_DESKTOP" even though I do not use Enlightenment, there is stuff starting with "_NET_SYSTEM_TRAY" even though I do not use a system tray, as well as "IM_PROTOCOLS" and "IM_REMOTE_COMMAND" and various others. There is also "Editres" which has been added recently and I don' < 1457489281 298037 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : did someone tell me something <-- I DON'T KNOW < 1457489401 556454 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux kernel is the best code < 1457489417 27246 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, there's a function that calls write_unlock_irq() < 1457489427 643746 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok let's look it up, oh it's a macro < 1457489459 602077 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only a wrapper around _raw_write_unlock_irq() < 1457489464 695724 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok let's look that up < 1457489489 887731 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is defined twice as a macro, and once as a function < 1457489516 360728 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok now i'm a bit lost, which one is my code calling < 1457489558 680130 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :a minute of guesswork later, ok it must be macro#2, ok let's look that up < 1457489570 194052 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a macro that calls __raw_write_unlock_irq() < 1457489575 907543 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1457489593 575988 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :and finally this is a function that does something < 1457489606 604812 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i hate this code < 1457489631 138258 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457489642 288185 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : what's the point in having a Spanish welcome command if you have to be Spanish to remember how to spell it <-- you can do `? welcome.es in a pinch hth < 1457490691 367348 :mihow!~mihow@c-24-21-209-185.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1457491102 574729 :mihow!~mihow@c-24-21-209-185.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457491434 128492 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1457491690 7331 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :got to the "register alias table" part of the cpu design and I'm worried it will have too many read/write ports < 1457492470 358243 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1457492584 938986 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu JOIN :#esoteric < 1457493282 803840 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ds01-214-177.dynamic.mtsallstream.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1457493340 142241 :mihow!~mihow@c-24-21-209-185.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1457494608 219427 :adu!~ajr@c-73-133-129-229.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457494935 741142 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AlphaGo match starting in 19 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFr3K2DORc8 < 1457494950 619274 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woot. < 1457495103 163175 :adu!~ajr@c-73-133-129-229.hsd1.md.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi all < 1457495150 801213 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stream comments are like... < 1457495275 291846 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hid chat < 1457495287 900394 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smart. < 1457495355 545597 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahh, everyone loves the neural net. < 1457495362 24106 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:01:38: ​~hackenv/bin/bash: sek ais523 \ strcc \ stories: \ \ bin/force \ the program \ xtw> \ side x \ path \ $1 \ cat \ chr \ import 0 \ every \ hackenv \ test \ drag (A fisher \ meops \ create \ format \ report \ complaints \ press \ run \ she \ cannot program \ wisdom/general \ loop \ fizzie \ was a programming language used to see it is not an application to the Unicode '. < 1457495395 37609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has the ba kslash pattern right < 1457495400 522668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*backslash < 1457495412 276702 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what's the fourier transform of the ulam spiral < 1457495433 269550 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gets a lot of things right. < 1457495483 137163 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, say, the names of the users in the channel. < 1457495494 834287 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It pretty much never uses a nick that isn't a real one. < 1457495520 511779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the timestamps neural net generated too? < 1457495556 866337 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that watching this stream is a condition of my employment contract or something. < 1457495583 192264 :adu!~ajr@c-73-133-129-229.hsd1.md.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: what's the square root of blue? < 1457495585 903671 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah. < 1457495590 909802 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's reasonably bad at making timestamps. < 1457495615 632691 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This version of the neural net makes up the minute and second components randomly every time, not paying any attention to the last timestamp. < 1457495622 11004 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is one of the more hyped up streams I've seen, multiple channels advertising it < 1457495634 405634 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hour tends to stay the same from one message to the next, but it frequently fluctuates. < 1457495638 732807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :will there be good commentary? I know how to play Go but am really bad at it < 1457495646 818831 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually know. I hope so. < 1457495651 245168 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And likewise. < 1457495651 602292 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It generates some interesting URLs. Y'all've seen the URLs it generates. < 1457495653 304206 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:54:19: see http://www.okairffimelohaspe.com/Zomisoserencridule/Jonus/rtfactbrlEIULer-tomicfopic_Page/newer < 1457495674 801835 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, okairffimelohaspe.com/Zomisoserencridule is one of my favorite websites. < 1457495701 828290 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm afraid to click the link now < 1457495703 255434 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has some really great tomicfopic pages about rtfactbrlEIULer. < 1457495715 285683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also would I really recommend a website like that? < 1457495775 923775 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. < 1457495790 245696 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one of the more baroque URLs it's ever generated. < 1457495800 147603 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: it likes to use .html as a top-level domain. < 1457495807 914296 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TrueWhat stream are we watching? < 1457495825 714710 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-True Apparently I was midsentence somewhere else < 1457495858 238021 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFr3K2DORc8 < 1457495862 10029 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, it generates boily's quit messages, too. < 1457495863 382041 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:05:11: -!- boily has quit (Quit: IAPICINN CHICKEN). < 1457495876 869744 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually it puts an actual word there. < 1457495878 145129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: have ICANN approved .html yet? < 1457495884 338575 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. < 1457495905 697697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ < 1457495921 248726 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how anyone keeps up with that chat :v < 1457495928 789774 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The answer is "you don't" < 1457495949 887555 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's AlphaGo doing? < 1457495950 391503 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, speaking of neural nets... < 1457495951 676827 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lexiconjure.tumblr.com/ < 1457495959 421575 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example: < 1457495970 227945 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"chrismatic, adj. [ECOLOGY] (of a plant or flower) having a christic crystal or deposit. late 19th century: from Greek khrisma ‘creeping shape’ + -IC." < 1457495978 245245 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My favorite part is how it generates plausible etymologies! < 1457495993 703502 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure there's no such Greek word as "khrisma". < 1457496010 115236 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that sounds like a Greek word, and it sounds like the sort of Greek word that could have yielded "chrismatic". < 1457496025 918069 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure there is, it means "Krishna" < 1457496027 209196 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=chrism < 1457496028 411500 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is "christic" a real word? < 1457496042 556680 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :khrisma is an unguent, apparently < 1457496048 988754 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure enough, there is such a Greek word as "khrisma". < 1457496074 505955 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wiktionary says "christic", lowercase, isn't a real word, but "Christic" means "of or relating to Christ". < 1457496080 97636 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There might even be a real plausible definition of chrismatic, knowing that :D < 1457496096 386362 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also from Greek, of course. "Khristos". < 1457496119 899956 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, unsurprisingly, related to "khrisma". < 1457496150 876410 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could see chrismatic as meaning "characteristic of a chrismatory" < 1457496177 561236 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would imagine "christic" would mean something like "relating to ointment". < 1457496192 25572 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, looks like the stream has broken < 1457496209 823760 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no pic < 1457496211 730272 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Had to reload < 1457496212 479314 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, there it is < 1457496217 948550 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: nah, that's just coincidence < 1457496233 401665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was broken for everyone < 1457496238 642292 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There could be plants which exude an oily substance, and this substance could be dubbed "chrisma". Then the adjective form of that could be "christic", and the plants that exude that substance could be called "chrismatic". < 1457496248 762198 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :True < 1457496300 4524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd think alphago would respond to an opening move faster < 1457496307 185313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there aren't that many opening moves played in top-level play < 1457496311 642537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could have answers to them precalculated < 1457496377 336523 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really like this definition: http://lexiconjure.tumblr.com/post/140628512630/roporation The net says that it's from the Latin verb "roporare". < 1457496442 822264 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The etymology of "pupple" is given as "Middle English (in the sense ‘assembly, trick’): perhaps related to Old French poper ‘to pop’." < 1457496482 426476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, "roporation" seems to be similar to "anthropomorphization" or "personification", except that it reflects an actual person who just happens to be very similar to the personification of an event < 1457496575 486359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a concept that I don't think had a word before < 1457496589 175555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I'm not sure it needs one < 1457496613 633180 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Humanoid Typhoon? < 1457496676 374995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, an "activity or event" is the thing that's represented < 1457496697 163774 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"[count noun] a person or thing that is represented by a particular activity or event: the roporation of the South African people." < 1457496702 918405 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and from the other definitions, I get the sense that it's representing a social movement or group < 1457496720 222982 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, there might be a roporation of communism, or of a political party < 1457496735 49008 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You usually think of people representing movements and whatnot, not the other way around. < 1457496745 903274 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, come to think of it... < 1457496768 253154 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There certainly are activities and evntsthat represent people and things. Like... plays and perormances. < 1457496944 743782 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are people representing movements, but there are also movements lenin the other way < 1457497028 28395 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I first read about AlphaGo being a big deal, was it Fan Hui that was taken as not a big deal for having been beaten, or was it that Lee Sedol wasn't a power player despite being 9-dan? < 1457497044 971554 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember there being some kind of minimization of one matchup or the other < 1457497067 538706 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fan Hui. < 1457497088 353853 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lee Se-dol is generally regarded as being the top player. < 1457497110 166132 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks < 1457497120 629032 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is akin to Deep Blue v. Kasparov here. < 1457497146 389850 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was the impression that I got when this match was talked about, yeah < 1457497167 657128 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kasparov, Deep Blue, 1996? < 1457497180 89490 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could never predict it, that it could see through you. < 1457497205 726052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well Deep Blue lost the first sequence against Kasparov < 1457497251 936131 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fan Hui was a quite impressive win though; first time a computer Go program has beaten *any* professional Go player, period. < 1457497414 536092 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a separate stream without these guys talking in the middle of my screen? < 1457497470 425783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if the same technique would work in Chess (good brute-forcer + neural net for position analysis) < 1457497828 981944 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: https://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/Brainless < 1457497831 678810 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like that? < 1457497879 133721 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the commenter said chinese taipei < 1457497882 370384 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably would. IIRC this technique was applied for some other things, like Atari 2600 games... < 1457497885 372620 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL. < 1457497888 438837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: and implied it was a different country from China < 1457497891 567502 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :may get in trouble for that < 1457497961 207442 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Chinese Taipei" is the international neutral appellation for it, isn't it? < 1457497965 751713 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if representing Google < 1457497966 585616 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good enough for the Olympics, good enough for go? < 1457497989 389382 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody calls it chinese taipei < 1457497991 311579 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: this is why you get "country or region" dropdowns on websites, installers, etc. < 1457498000 141610 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1457498001 65565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody disputes the existence of Taiwan as a country or region :-) < 1457498006 413638 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the olypics for stupid dipplomatic reasons < 1457498030 354805 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't the Boy Scouts have a policy of calling it "Taiwan, Province of China"? < 1457498077 745330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea < 1457498086 394943 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : ehh < 1457498091 111331 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duc A. Hoang: Independent Taiwan!!!!Independent Taiwan!!!! < 1457498161 299397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, which country is it that #esoteric claims doesn't exist? < 1457498165 52762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it might be like that < 1457498226 315892 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bielfeld? < 1457498234 715834 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Antarctica? < 1457498243 423522 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? antarctica < 1457498253 338667 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :antarctica? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1457498268 513824 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`le/rn antarctica/There's no such country as Antarctica. < 1457498274 603629 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned «antarctica» < 1457498275 158285 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: canada hth < 1457498283 85041 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tswett < 1457498284 323594 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett is livin' it up with the penguins. He's a title under the cruxite in the lathe. < 1457498297 315668 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure tswett is just trying to hide his whereabouts < 1457498301 200714 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a what the fuck now? < 1457498307 769935 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`culprits wisdom/tswett < 1457498309 11716 :adu!~ajr@c-73-133-129-229.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1457498309 856160 :treaki_!~treaki@p54BF2E55.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1457498313 549580 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett oerjan oerjan elliott Taneb < 1457498324 719337 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmm. < 1457498337 929638 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So does that mean that the last person to edit it was... me? < 1457498484 874359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: no, you were the first < 1457498491 260525 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1457498493 872000 :treaki__!~treaki@p54BF2CAF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1457498581 24503 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely last < 1457498608 631269 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`url wisdom/tswett < 1457498610 740442 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/tswett < 1457498654 977175 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: yep, you were the last < 1457498718 330251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :commentator predicts alphago's move just before it happens, it was that obvious :-) < 1457498725 842212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just assumed it had already played it < 1457498740 229404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lee sedol thought it would play it too and had his next move lined up < 1457498780 528260 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm the one who added the "he's a title under the cruxite in the lathe" part? < 1457498789 227075 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Least it made the reasonable move. < 1457498807 802843 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the heck does that mean? < 1457498846 915426 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All right, I have a neural net which generates etymologies. It's currently terrible at it. < 1457498924 924071 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's the etymology of "atifs" or "aeaniginate" or "bistion" or "blingle" or "chichenct" or "eitholinige" or "dissentic" (the neural net is really confused about this): < 1457498931 166343 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well so far I've figured out that the size 2 black group in the middle is in danger of being captured < 1457498936 545011 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alphago could force its capture with one more move < 1457498953 773566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, not being a go professional, I'm not sure what the best way to protect it is or whether it's worth saving < 1457498987 44834 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom lifthrasiir < 1457498987 485657 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1570s, from sord had spartict," from Old English hescentem, Ced- "and Englive (Cardonive te shongint of the bu-stend, the uanct, from -in, Mid-Englash contion usesily or tho onigh to from [a failed attempt at an HTML character entity] " It a counce dergal," a tond forme." < 1457498989 54139 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir/lifthrasiir is shunned by the rest of his country for being no good at League of Legends. < 1457499006 60884 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should append "and Go" to this wisdom < 1457499058 39195 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that where wisdom lives, now? < 1457499063 260234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I made a valid tactical inference by myself! < 1457499066 595715 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is proud < 1457499072 485397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: well it's not all that wise < 1457499154 614097 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how far out of sync this github repo is :| < 1457499195 376503 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on, neural net! Come out with your second version! < 1457499236 643407 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope AlphaGo is watching the stream and smirking about the analysts < 1457499249 859715 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, like, engaging its smirk subroutine or whatever < 1457499424 746462 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :did the stream break again < 1457499433 313820 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not for me < 1457499488 641915 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah it needed a reload < 1457499528 908150 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: and the stream would be flooding with nonsense moves < 1457499540 65519 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dang it, the second version doesn't seem to be able to remember words either. < 1457499552 563583 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: True < 1457499756 718485 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Second version of what? < 1457499764 145217 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The neural net. < 1457499793 617307 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A particular one? < 1457499816 257159 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the one I'm training on Harper's OED. < 1457499822 740312 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, neat < 1457499829 778721 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The Online Etymology Dictionary, etymonline.com.) < 1457500143 444289 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In tonight's Democratic primary in Michigan, Clinton County is 56% for Sanders. < 1457500155 963380 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :She couldn't even win her own county. < 1457500183 615834 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1457500210 691238 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But she did win several other counties in Michigan.) < 1457500211 278712 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we'll have to see how Sanders County, Montana shakes out < 1457500353 96965 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, it's not till June? America is the worst. :| I long for the day when we have a few weeks of campaigning, a week or two of voting, and then some results. < 1457500832 323767 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1457500850 465642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do the Republicans have counties named after them? < 1457500957 107368 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a Santa Cruz County < 1457501088 509775 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the past few moves have been hilarious < 1457501096 64682 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're both just making vertical lines down the board < 1457501250 514882 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: AlphaGo won in Gomoku < 1457501310 990900 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel JOIN :#esoteric < 1457501340 817344 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to go to bed < 1457501343 907623 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... < 1457501354 372000 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is "I was watching the Go match" a valid reason to be late to work? < 1457501378 964761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on where you work < 1457501385 321313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could watch it "as live" later, I guess < 1457501395 987160 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah; tough though < 1457501406 773137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: Gomoku strategy is pretty different, really < 1457501409 703178 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "I was watching the Go match" if it's your employers? < 1457501420 329767 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*employers' < 1457501423 442900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've beaten Emacs at Gomoku on occasion < 1457501475 99173 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, but Gomoku-like long rows in a line occasionally appear in Go as well < 1457501487 986826 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'm not good at either < 1457501515 272013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more that, if someone starts making a line in Gomoku < 1457501517 533311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to block it < 1457501521 537939 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1457501522 894498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Go there's no real reason to do that < 1457501548 155248 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the current match we have two lines of six stones each :p < 1457501591 42024 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was quite the move < 1457501805 964955 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one? lee sedol's most recent? < 1457501841 313910 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard that the most recent move from AlphaGo was a quite mistake < 1457501845 49632 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a* < 1457502033 786742 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: at the time, yes < 1457502054 971241 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the play on the (3,6), making claim to all the territory between it and the wall < 1457502335 750825 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a breathless compliment < 1457502426 917287 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When AlphaGo develops a drinking problem, this will all seem darkly prophetic < 1457502517 745464 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to the commentators it's a standard attack, and possibly even in alphago's database < 1457502584 785311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, it's a big aggressive thing to do < 1457502591 277661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the sort of thing you can do if given a spare move < 1457502725 274063 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lee Se-dol is so quick < 1457503095 505019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, that was unexpected < 1457503100 624405 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(white move near top right corner) < 1457503170 321065 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, interesting < 1457503425 958780 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@37-219-90-85.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1457503459 368804 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-5-121.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1457503465 784425 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@37-219-90-85.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi NICK :J_Arcane < 1457504454 587922 :lambda-11235!~lambda-11@47.208.113.50 QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1457504578 611906 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to play a logarithmic growth game < 1457504643 663476 :gde33|2!kvirc@546A0B75.cm-12-3a.dynamic.ziggo.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1457505480 681850 :gniourf!~gniourf@pdm-l03.insa-lyon.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1457505650 181613 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this is the sort of position I'd expect to see in a computer v human game < 1457505664 286043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the human looks to have an edge in each area, but it's not certain < 1457505678 202211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the computer may well know already that the result isn't as favourable as it looks < 1457505786 990730 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expect that even some chess problemists might rarely or never play the game, but how common is it? < 1457506100 942836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there haven't been any captures yet < 1457506116 593108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because actually capturing something is mostly pointless unless you're forced < 1457506129 207454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the captures may wait until near or after the end of the game < 1457506346 468726 :gniourf!~gniourf@pdm-l03.insa-lyon.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1457506403 783356 :^v!~v^@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1457506551 352959 :^v!~v^@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457506589 932011 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :capture! < 1457506591 534876 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1457506858 437764 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1457507316 977614 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :“ ooh! does anyone know a good library for doing operations like wcwidth() that uses char32_t rather than wchar_t (which doesn't handle astral planes on Windows)?” => um, can you use libicu for that? you might not want that for uncursed since it's a big depencency you don't want to add to nethack, even if you only use its C interface though. < 1457507371 802327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally something small and permissively licensed (for NGPL compatibility) < 1457507410 771939 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, there's a small standalone wcwidth implementation with a built-in table somewhere in the urxvt source in the etc directory iirc, taken from somewhere else, but not currently used by it < 1457507501 535054 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, I'll check if the boost locale library (of which the name refers to localization in a broad sense, not in the unix/C sense of locale) < 1457507543 736814 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um. http://cheezburger.com/78651649/video-brazzers-meme-porn?ref=kymhottoday < 1457507587 231959 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: Now what's what I call podracing < 1457507722 664095 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, "now *this* is podracing" < 1457507771 654929 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :“ do the Republicans have counties named after them? => sort of. lots of countries have full names ending in “Republic”. < 1457507842 80655 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :morning < 1457507859 815650 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: morning < 1457507862 413194 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint-e < 1457507894 503153 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, who's winning? < 1457507897 955714 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: we're all looking at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFr3K2DORc8 hth < 1457507909 841294 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is looking at a relay on KGS < 1457507921 219481 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also i'm looking at girl genius in the other tab) < 1457507983 21609 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently pro players like Alphago's position < 1457508021 124738 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: all three are mentioned are permissively licensed. ICU is under a custom BSD-like license, see http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/LICENSE < 1457508032 559921 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope it has time under control :/ < 1457508038 537294 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Liberia < 1457508040 150337 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: boost is under a custom license that I think is mozilla-like < 1457508068 614672 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think the boost locale library doesn't help probably < 1457508068 898190 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh! It's live! < 1457508081 805985 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so let me check that small file distributed with urxvt < 1457508089 65355 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a minute per move forever... < 1457508103 553328 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :time won't be an issue, I think, not for Alphago at least. < 1457508104 654839 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: Technically, only one of them is alive < 1457508125 857872 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique is going to hell < 1457508157 687651 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if you're referring to girl genius, I'll get there in the evening... < 1457508162 115568 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I don't understand Go xD < 1457508198 700162 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://cvs.schmorp.de/rxvt-unicode/doc/wcwidth.patch?revision=1.6 which says it comes from http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/wcwidth.c < 1457508216 245848 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My boss apparently just heard about the singularity, and I wanted to ruin his working vacation with a basilisk, but then I wondered if it would be more vindictive not to mention it at all < 1457508223 238593 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you want something small, then look at this one. < 1457508258 315373 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and I see comments by people who believe this is still the october version... "basically alphago is playing on infinite 13x13 boards" may no longer be true. < 1457508316 141783 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: as that code currently exists, it takes a wchar_t, but it's simple enough code that you can modify it to work on windows and take a different type < 1457508329 775047 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is a theoretical bound that comes from one layer with 2 squares context and 11 layers with one square context in the convolutional network architecture they use... for both networks? I forgot what the architectural difference was. < 1457508346 801134 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1457508471 806016 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they had time and resources enough to retrain a deeper network, I think, if they thought it worth trying out. < 1457508708 216862 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If this were an anime, this would be the moment that Lee Se-dol determines a weakness in AlphaGo, and realizes that all he has to do is wait out the clock to confuse the neural net. This would be followed by dense internal monologues, and then a furious back and forth until the conclusion of the match. < 1457508784 374521 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: thanks < 1457508823 918623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, anyone know what the score in that game would have been? < 1457508824 52015 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :lee resigned, apparently? < 1457508827 350622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes < 1457508845 962621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :played one of his opponent's stones, which everyone interpreted as resigning as you don't do that by mistake < 1457508859 915562 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: Which one is the one that's alive? I would guess Deep Mind < 1457508908 3980 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AlphaGo is British, apparently, so referring to it as "alive" may be a stretch < 1457508915 999911 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen estimates like W+3.5 floating by (professional player counting; people were relaying bits from various broadcasts) < 1457509179 28970 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I've seen W+4.5, probably within an error bar < 1457509224 883475 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently it was about 20 minutes from the end that the professionals realised that alphago had won < 1457509237 59677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, behind on board, ahead by komi < 1457509240 889146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why it looked like it was losing < 1457509250 786134 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was, if you don't take the fact it went second into account < 1457509395 502638 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: and GOod night < 1457509456 983843 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, something seems to have gone wrong in the opening, move 23 allowing white to cut off black's m14 stones perhaps? black had to struggle to settle those stones... there will be interesting game reviews later I'm sure. < 1457509492 464707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a komi win, it's hard to judge what went wrong < 1457509503 864035 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-90-85.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1457509510 969097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because black didn't necessarily do anything to lose parity < 1457509515 592273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just they failed to gain < 1457509551 265003 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lead may have been larger... if this is like other monte carlo bots then it excels at playing safely (giving up a point here or there just to keep the game simple) < 1457509572 836934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's specifically designed to aim for a win, not for winning by the maximum possible margin < 1457509576 543105 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the komi 6.5 or 7.5? < 1457509583 462624 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I have no clue < 1457509587 301298 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll prefer a 100% chance of a 0.5 point win than a 50% chance of a 10.5 point win < 1457509589 837485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: 7.5 < 1457509594 453221 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :7.5, area counting (chinese rules) < 1457509609 63606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically 3.75 as area scoring values are half as large < 1457509625 647479 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :which for almost all final position has the same effect as 6.5 komi with area (japanese) counting. < 1457509703 517723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :area scoring makes so much more sense for computer go, though < 1457509705 733185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's objective < 1457509712 184648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's probably why they're using it < 1457509712 580460 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1457509727 587525 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exceptions include sekis with eyes and one-sided dame... I expect senseis.xmp.net has pages on those) < 1457509730 861373 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :For this go game, it's basically impossible to verify that Alphago isn't using human assistance, right? < 1457509752 746949 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right < 1457509777 898942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: game 2 of kasparov vs. deep blue was widely accused of having human interference < 1457509787 218321 :bender|_!~benderx2@2404:e800:e61a:41d:f430:c660:b7ce:2f32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1457509789 512047 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why would Google/Deepmind take that risk? < 1457509793 581747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially when it got a draw in a won endgame < 1457509846 683700 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did they at least try to collect the few hundred best Go players to the hotel or something to show that they in particular aren't assisting? That would be expensive. < 1457509877 305040 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it's business, and it might be worth if they're confident that their computer player is so good that in a few years it will beat humans < 1457509886 282947 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently Ke Jie was on Korean TV, commenting on the game. < 1457509889 370814 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: so I dunno, I'm just asking < 1457509907 608192 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the player that Alphago lost to in the previous series is the referee of this one < 1457509919 944661 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer the mechanical Turk hypothesis. They couldn't teach a computer to play go, so they just spent all their budget on training a world-class player to hide in a box < 1457509939 654157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, there are a ton of potential ways to cheat that would be hard to catch < 1457509950 765437 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :networking via injecting DC into the AC power outlets is a fun one < 1457509966 565783 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: they don't even need to hide in a box. technology has improved past that stage. the player is at leisure at home messing with his computer. < 1457509975 743431 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fan Hui being referee would be odd to my mind; Fan Hui has been hired by deepmind... < 1457509978 796172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's unlikely anything would notice unless you specifically connected a DC multimeter to the socket, and you'd be unlikely to think of doing that) < 1457509997 685761 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he commented in the KGS broadcast during the game, so I bet he didn't referee. < 1457510000 855350 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: since it's running on a huge server park, they don't even need anything like that, because it's impossible to put that many servers in an isolated box that anyone can verify < 1457510012 159801 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Play the next round in a Faraday cage! < 1457510014 252176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hmm, must have misunderstood the commentators then < 1457510032 804543 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a gas generator for AlphaGo < 1457510041 870200 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: even that might not help < 1457510093 676133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :visible light can get through a faraday cage < 1457510097 657681 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use a laser for networking < 1457510101 979933 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: both because there's no perfect enough faraday cage of the right size that covers all frequencies of EM you can communicate on (eg. would the go player have to sit in a dark room?), and because of non-EM stuff < 1457510102 738523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so can ultrasound < 1457510106 412131 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, what ais523 says < 1457510149 975998 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frankly, I think it'd be simpler to just get one of their robot cars to take out Lee Se-dol than go through all that < 1457510174 792282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: murdering your opponent wouldn't demonstrate that you had the better AI, though < 1457510175 712216 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: um, defeating Lee Se-dol in particular isn't the point < 1457510177 687100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it made you win the series < 1457510200 781298 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Better go AI? Maybe not. Better murderbot AI? Checkmate. < 1457510201 135787 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has game theory expanded to cover The Game (so sorry)? I've heard that it was created to not fall in line with game theroy < 1457510214 197826 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one? < 1457510240 459965 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: No, but it does reshuffle the rankings a bit < 1457510260 153125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're talking about the mind game, its rules are incorrect, which kind-of implies that they're not rules (which you'd expect to be imperatives, rather than statements that have a truth value) < 1457510273 777030 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ah? < 1457510275 504182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's also not a game in the sense that it involves no choices < 1457510286 632859 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The Game as in the one where thinking about it makes you lose < 1457510290 6092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1457510314 696034 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: sure, but it was demonstrated like several decades ago that machines have a big advantage over humans in the area of murdering squishy humans < 1457510327 339181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that has three rules, which I'm not going to quote here because either you already know what they are, or else learning what they are will cause people to act in annoying ways towards you < 1457510329 812923 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder when (or whether) Google will reveal how much hardware they are using this time... < 1457510330 304303 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :True < 1457510347 362698 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, basically at the point of usable automatic weapons at the latest < 1457510350 747409 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, later. < 1457510352 167445 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but possibly earlier < 1457510353 477595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rule 3 is the problematic one, in that it makes a statement that clearly isn't true (also attempts to apply itself to people who aren't playing the game) < 1457510365 695105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and rules 1 and 2 give you no choices < 1457510386 122624 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are of the form "when X happens, Y happens", with no choice in the matter < 1457510394 335693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the game doesn't actually have a win condition < 1457510405 137105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the whole thing is degenerate from the point of view of game theory < 1457510411 676483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only have one move, and it only has one outcome < 1457510420 173524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :game theory's about things like finding the optimal strategy < 1457510423 133035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's kind-of trivial here < 1457510435 624459 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "However, The Game may have been created in 1977 by members of the Cambridge University Science Fiction Society when attempting to create a game that did not fit in with game theory." < 1457510435 941422 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it one of those "the only way to win is not to play" deals? < 1457510442 4416 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Zero-sum game? < 1457510452 441339 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming your utility function is "make other people lose" < 1457510453 13899 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Nope; there's a rule that you are necessarily playing it and you can't opt out < 1457510454 478583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sort-of; playing guarantees you lose, not playing is not considered a valid method of winning though < 1457510458 391345 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then not playing should be modeled as an option before applying the theory ;) < 1457510472 120135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rule 3 claims that everyone is playing it, which I can't see as anything other than a false statement < 1457510493 273253 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if I accept the rules... but then we're in legal territory now. < 1457510496 341841 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's just defining the players as S_b < 1457510501 578182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: yes, people who are "actively" playing the game normally seek to make other people lose, as there's not much else you can do < 1457510510 683181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: this is my argument too < 1457510513 620828 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I seriously need to go < 1457510524 606575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because rule 3 claims to apply to nonplayers doesn't mean that it actually does < 1457510544 417311 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: S_b = every sentient being in the multiverse < 1457510551 984872 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just think of the beauty of that < 1457510555 245128 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No matter where you co < 1457510556 375012 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*go < 1457510571 39834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun fact: if I make enough contradictory statements about rule 3, it'll cause enough uncertainty about the ruleset to cause the game to cease to exist < 1457510575 571430 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No matter how many start systems or galaxies or dimensions you cross < 1457510586 81498 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any time you encounter a being capable of thought < 1457510589 302939 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're playing the game < 1457510593 570949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it's only defined by its rules, and if people disagree about what those are… < 1457510613 21351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, Wikipedia once had a version of rule 3 which is a trivially true, rather than trivially false, statement < 1457510618 360991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an attempt to construct something that wasn't clearly absurd < 1457510621 910642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the whole game just doesn't owrk < 1457510637 17532 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: So they failed at making a game that didn't fit with game theory, not by making a game that falls under game theory, but by not making a game? < 1457510651 630512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: yes < 1457510700 860985 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ah < 1457510710 856964 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Would formal game theory be a good basis for a Nomic? < 1457510717 566252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when people actually treat it like a game, it's because they're following some sort of private ruleset < 1457510732 689911 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's different from the actual game < 1457510738 965381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of those do fit into the system of game theory < 1457510807 843244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for nomic, game theory is pretty bad at handling it; it theoretically works but a) as an obvious consequence of its nature, the models are too large to easily handle as (in extreme cases) they have to consider the entirety of the observable universe, and b) most strategies for nomic victory involve psychological/human factors, which require more information to model than is currently available < 1457510848 538534 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. it's clear that most of the time, many of the players in a nomic are not playing to its stated win condition, but rather to some personal utility function < 1457510879 672780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can see the debates in Agora where people say that winning should be made more valuable to give people an incentive to win < 1457510891 514362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my reply that winning is enough of an incentive to win, because isn't that what playing games is about? < 1457510922 995828 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that said, the reason why I consider winning in a nomic to be valuable and satisfying is because doing so normally requires some amount of skill and is designed to be nontrivial) < 1457510927 752941 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar EGBB < 1457510928 105855 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :EGBB 090750Z 36018KT 5000 RA SCT007 BKN011 OVC017 04/04 Q0992 < 1457511030 350508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nomic's metawincondition normally ensures that if there are even a few people interested in being competitive, if winning is too easy, they will make it difficult by trying to change up the rules on you to make it harder as soon as they see what you're up to < 1457511090 726730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my win-arrangements in BlogNomic (i.e. someone else won but I was one of the main people causing the win to happen, which is the closest you can get to a team win in a single-winner game), the win condition was trivially easy to achieve, but there was a bunch of skill involved in preventing people changing the win condition on me for long enough to achieve it < 1457511141 285921 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, it'd be a stripped-down nomic with something to enable outside interaction < 1457511155 456376 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: oh, I see < 1457511158 852677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem you're facing is < 1457511165 297622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :game theory is designed for solving games < 1457511167 347554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for creating them < 1457511168 609031 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That nomic is too big? < 1457511171 817744 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ooooh < 1457511206 989309 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What I'm trying to get at is that you modify the internal representation of the game, including part of the game being programmed to do just that for you potentially < 1457511243 892597 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see what this has to do with game theory < 1457511246 811970 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you thinking of codenomics? < 1457511292 253912 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, that's the goal < 1457511314 971721 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The idea is that the code describing the game is rooted in the models game theory uses < 1457511323 509938 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1457511337 122662 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: oh, I see < 1457511338 629182 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like extensive form (but as a graph) < 1457511341 822620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such models are very unsuited for nomic < 1457511349 31256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as they're designed to be easy to analyse < 1457511351 439425 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Is there a better model? < 1457511353 236991 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1457511354 65240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to contain every possibility < 1457511364 710234 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Should I stick with my Nomic LISP? < 1457511367 745841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nomics are interesting only if hard to analyse, and often most interesting when people use unexpected possibilities < 1457511438 913767 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: So what would be a better representation? < 1457511491 516741 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1457511497 737008 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried Prolog once, that was interesting < 1457511504 653072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe could have worked but more people would need to be involved < 1457511531 407063 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Is there any language family/paradigm you think would be well-suited? < 1457511545 685966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that makes adding special cases retroactively easy < 1457511572 945278 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Perhaps < 1457511591 927356 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Maybe something based on pattern matching? < 1457511631 248810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems like it could work, actually < 1457511721 401199 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay! < 1457511858 920857 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel JOIN :#esoteric < 1457512241 106835 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :about that ptrace problem, i found a way for any process to hide themselves from root < 1457512249 106402 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://arin.ga/JvvhHD/raw small example < 1457512263 148168 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :get the child's pid, then in another terminal run sudo strace -p thatpid < 1457512269 100978 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ sudo strace -p 14162 < 1457512271 106044 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :strace: attach: ptrace(PTRACE_ATTACH, ...): Operation not permitted < 1457512284 909072 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :so unprivileged processes can prevent root from ptracing them < 1457512287 920661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: can't you just ptrace the ptracer and get at it that way? < 1457512296 169628 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you can < 1457512313 801454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if it's possible for two processes to ptrace each other < 1457512322 225127 :bender|_!~benderx2@2404:e800:e61a:41d:f430:c660:b7ce:2f32 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1457512326 281553 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you don't know who the tracer is? < 1457512376 924006 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no way to get that information in userspace, afaics < 1457512423 429947 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than trying literally all the processes < 1457512530 139976 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :does this look like a serious problem? < 1457512639 693693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: it shows up in /proc/status < 1457512654 668730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is how I debugged the bizarre state Web of Lies got itself into once < 1457512668 112686 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was back when you couldn't sigkill programs that were being ptraced without the permission of the ptracer < 1457512675 300337 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had somehow managed to get the real init to ptrace it < 1457512679 793323 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to see a evolutionary biologist explain Homo economicus < 1457512682 363996 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :what should i look for in /proc/status? < 1457512684 631045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the end I had to reboot the system < 1457512691 367260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: TracerPid, I believe < 1457512721 208902 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah thank you < 1457512725 32485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Web of Lies uses a fake init that also has PID 1, it can get confusing sometimes) < 1457512725 951844 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't aware of this < 1457512729 788556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but I'm pretty sure this was the real one) < 1457512751 158430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks "who will ptrace the ptracer?" < 1457512776 871127 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :who watches the watchmen? :P < 1457512930 777136 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway all i can see by tracing the tracer is that it's waiting < 1457512957 77684 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :no info on what the tracee is doing < 1457513062 637298 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1457513145 113972 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to start injecting syscalls into the tracer < 1457513159 132399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get it to do trace instructions on the tracee < 1457513169 817089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're using gdb, this would be along the lines of p ptrace(...) < 1457513185 331963 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel JOIN :#esoteric < 1457513203 143704 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1457513313 289205 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :two processes can ptrace each other < 1457513321 600348 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :even parent and child < 1457513326 697094 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't attach to either one < 1457513342 243691 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457513634 241355 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1457514473 43103 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa::f63 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1457515497 320912 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1457515851 507818 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel JOIN :#esoteric < 1457515865 803737 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1457516014 819774 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1457516714 364700 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: about that stuff, back some years ago I asked a somewhat related question about linux (Linux has changed a bit since, which could give new answers). < 1457516791 357048 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1457516912 525726 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose you're the admin of a linux machine, so you have root access. There's a user on that linux machine who does not (currently) have root access. You want to ban that user, preferably without causing other harm. For this, you have banned the user from ssh, cgi scripts, cron, at, etc, so that he can't start new processes. But the user currently still has some processes running on the machine. < 1457516959 365592 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The question is, how to kill the processes in such a way that after that you can be sure you have killed all processes? If you just read /proc or list processes in some other way, you might be missing newly forked processes by a race condition, so a malicious process could get lucky and hide itself. < 1457517025 642015 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking for a solution that can verify for certain that all processes of the user have died. If they haven't died, you can try to kill them again and redo this, and in the unlikely worst case when they won't die, you can reboot the machine, but if the user doesn't have processes that malicously fork, you'd like to avoid that. < 1457517039 467301 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So find a way to either atomically kill or atomically list all processes of the user. < 1457517048 225930 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We found two or three solutions in the end. < 1457517099 672213 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting, what are these? < 1457517113 491337 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: I'll tell later, try to find your own solution first. < 1457517134 651271 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe someone else on the channel wants to think about it too. < 1457517192 586677 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn QUIT :Read error: Connection timed out < 1457517588 853362 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :something something fill the process table with sleeping processes, then list the processes and kill each one of those from that user and replace it with another one that sleeps < 1457517673 432051 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :untested <.< < 1457517722 699707 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: that could cause a problem in that it could harm processes of other users and even processes of root unnecessarily < 1457517739 612094 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: the whole point is that we want to avoid harming other processes in the likely case when the user isn't doing anything that serious < 1457517744 743481 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... < 1457517756 979430 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: if we're ok with harming the other processes, then we can reboot < 1457517771 316620 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just an idea < 1457517774 883926 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1457518550 17451 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1457519033 12583 :bender|!~benderx2@2404:e800:e61a:41d:f430:c660:b7ce:2f32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1457519411 622073 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit tempted to make a JS incremental game about stealing souls < 1457520261 648395 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't it be more appropriate to do it in qbasic instead, and praise Microsoft while coding... < 1457520584 15045 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457520861 994985 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1457521572 786105 :Slice^!~Train@nat-156-116.internal.eduroam.ucl.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1457521597 123631 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, AlphaGo won the first match? Weird. < 1457521615 803650 :Slice^!~Train@nat-156-116.internal.eduroam.ucl.ac.uk QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1457521644 786000 :Slice^!~Train@nat-156-116.internal.eduroam.ucl.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1457521728 117878 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm watching the game < 1457521898 377532 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the presentation exciting? < 1457522042 930926 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently not. < 1457522058 864645 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they should at the very least have had some blinking lights in a box for AlphaGo. < 1457522109 817437 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have a computer monitor and a man looking at it and playing the moves on an actual board < 1457522130 504465 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1457522135 43350 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a look. < 1457522147 714489 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's so practical^Wboring. < 1457522268 807099 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gogameguru.com/alphago-defeats-lee-sedol-game-1/ has a summary of the game... seems that at least it wasn't a one-sided affair. < 1457522415 641196 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much about Go < 1457522424 431776 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I can say so far is that they're putting stones on a board < 1457522430 709532 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1457522442 823293 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :They seem to both be doing that very well < 1457522481 988543 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :w's slave is a 5 dan amateur player... not too weak < 1457522491 909685 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :w=white player < 1457522673 882001 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1457523056 548434 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's up with all the "the match will start in 0 seconds" at the beginning of the game... < 1457523065 347588 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(looking at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFr3K2DORc8 ) < 1457523076 459620 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :also stuttering audio... meh < 1457523094 822037 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, that gets sorted out later < 1457523096 125707 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much later < 1457523163 998076 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but now I'm interested in reactions to move 7 and 23 < 1457523267 177900 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But perhaps I'm hoping for too much, at least in the deepmind video, which is meant to make sense to people who know almost nothing about go... < 1457523345 156242 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :also irritated by the demonstration board... usually people leave out "I" and start numbering at the bottom :P < 1457523348 541285 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1457523629 317338 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :The commentators have missed a pair of moves and it's annoying me because they've not pu them on the demonstration board < 1457523770 186609 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel JOIN :#esoteric < 1457523772 445799 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila JOIN :#esoteric < 1457523773 259458 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1457523777 805146 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :good momrinng < 1457523836 447294 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, vanila < 1457523881 559250 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello :D < 1457523885 855910 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :im reading about logic programming < 1457523887 126871 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats up ? < 1457523935 182503 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :We've been discussing Lee Sedol vs AlphaGo < 1457523982 321600 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably be interested in that < 1457524016 722908 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see a 4hr long video < 1457524022 160285 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :but im not even good at go < 1457524054 168120 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila, I'm 2 and a half hours in and I've played one game of Go in my life < 1457524057 518768 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I lost quite badly < 1457524064 238825 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I've since forgotten how to play < 1457524071 951142 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like playing go < 1457524110 823225 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i havent done that in ages though < 1457524124 196665 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I really wanted to do was make speech regonition interface to play ti < 1457524137 114481 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I couldn't find any good free software < 1457524234 29105 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1457524249 402955 :Slice^!~Train@nat-156-116.internal.eduroam.ucl.ac.uk QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1457524254 385108 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is alphago different to zen? < 1457524264 946407 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :that stocastic 9d that was on KGS < 1457524413 893941 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses a combination of neural nets and tree search < 1457524615 863906 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All right, my etymology neural net is clearly making an attempt at remembering words. < 1457524635 387358 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh < 1457524642 238056 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Problem is, it can't. < 1457524661 860134 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably too small. I'll have to use a larger one. < 1457524763 305988 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, here, it starts out thinking that it's writing about the word "doll", then "dome", then "dome" again, then it changes to "domp", then back to "dome", then to "domt". < 1457524986 920864 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, let me give you a randomly generated etymology. < 1457525043 926184 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1457525106 158238 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damp (n.) 1530s, "to shine, head," from French DARTE "a shine, concert, expert," from DIRTUS "dark, strength," from DIRTUS, past participle of DISTUS "strange, make, distinguish," from DIS "well" (see DISPHASE/TIMPERED). Meaning "to reckoner" is from 1808. < 1457525120 334812 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There it says "see TIMPERED", but the link goes to DISPHASE instead. < 1457525155 499839 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1457525157 380320 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is fun < 1457525162 218574 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you post some more please? < 1457525323 296714 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here you go: https://jsfiddle.net/g06kujk6/ < 1457525359 840093 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are bits of invalid HTML in there; I'm surprised that the whole thing renders in a reasonable manner. < 1457525403 219207 :jaboja!~jaboja@eml127.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1457525415 187372 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :Related: Bullshed < 1457525418 520979 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1457525488 131922 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :1808 is remarkably precise < 1457525549 23973 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can make it give the etymology for any word! < 1457525558 880973 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, try "jug" < 1457525567 567818 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is great :D < 1457525581 82639 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that it's only been trained on words starting with A through E, so if you ask it for any other word, it'll almost certainly fail to remember it. < 1457525586 131466 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about... "bug"? < 1457525594 330164 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1457525667 178351 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: nice < 1457525691 179156 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Etymology of "bug": "to dist, concert," from a- (1) "press with" + -phos "form" (see one). Sense of "stranger" is from 1520s. As a noun from 1889. < 1457525722 902604 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask me again in a couple of days; I'll have a much better neural net then. < 1457525805 119515 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: wait, is it generated one? XD < 1457525842 677357 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, that's the generated etymology. < 1457525857 350394 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wondered why bug is associated with aphos, while assuming the possibility that it is actually an etymology for some foreign word translated to "bug" < 1457525877 140273 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is hilarious < 1457525881 917652 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :sense of a sense of a < 1457525894 449518 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :board (n.) Look up board at Dictionary.com < 1457525894 609725 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1580s, from beach (n.) + -ate (2). Meaning "sense of the sense of a concession of a criment" is from 1650s. Related: Estapoleted; escriptical. < 1457525894 965499 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: OEDILF http://www.oedilf.com/db/Lim.php has words with starts from Aa to Ga. A random word appears on the top level webpage, new one chosen every ten seconds or something. Take the next such word that starts with A to E and generate its etymology. < 1457525898 579420 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the funniest < 1457525913 538863 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: all right. < 1457525925 589871 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, could be going to "aphid"?? < 1457525952 47101 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: possibly! < 1457525963 330128 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1457525991 977154 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All right. Etymology of "beeve"... < 1457526055 159378 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bullshit (n.) 1520s, from bull (n.) + -al (2). As an adjective, from 1836. < 1457526071 865738 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a fun fact: "bullal" is a Korean word for testicle < 1457526086 431878 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, bollocks < 1457526104 324066 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1520s, "to cause cloth," from BE- + FOUR (n.). Meaning "a sense, provered to the speak or head of an ancient person" is from 1610s. Related: BULLSHED; BULLISHED. < 1457526166 853632 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: VERIFIED CHICKEN < 1457526263 269440 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :BULLSHED < 1457526317 889050 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :once the NN is more advanced you could make an index that defines every word in the jabberwocky poem < 1457526354 696213 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah! < 1457526421 188412 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-putbkocggbwvfnlt QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1457526421 615398 :vyv!~vyv@142.114.229.66 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1457526423 137640 :mad!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1457526423 271126 :MoALTz!~no@78-11-183-124.static.ip.netia.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1457526423 793266 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-237.rentec.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1457526433 695724 :puckipedia!~puck@irc.puckipedia.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1457526438 67142 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-237.rentec.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1457526461 99030 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: thanks < 1457526487 224385 :MoALTz!~no@78-11-183-124.static.ip.netia.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1457526491 798645 :vyv!~vyv@142.114.229.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1457526531 439627 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the "Related: BULLSHED; BULLISHED" part. It looks like it makes sense for "beeve". < 1457526593 819997 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION beeves < 1457526607 434509 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-penyoxzvnnkwilpu JOIN :#esoteric < 1457526611 246516 :puckipedia!~puck@irc.puckipedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1457526699 247122 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-hrvqlpezfzrdkyro QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1457526766 983399 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"spinning rust array" is a neat way to discribe hard disk drives < 1457527004 306973 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, I call them spinny disk drives < 1457527026 956717 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly because I get the acronym for SSD wrong and it helps cover my tracks and gives people a laugh < 1457527253 204383 :gde33!kvirc@546A0B75.cm-12-3a.dynamic.ziggo.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1457527358 433859 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: nice < 1457527380 174777 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can also call them rotating platter faraday cages, the same as microwave ovens < 1457527404 251265 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, both have a metal casing that a user shouldn't open < 1457527420 33772 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: can you show your solution now? :p < 1457527520 655615 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: yes... ok, let me find the old mails < 1457527534 875068 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks :3 < 1457527700 880133 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: my solution is that linux has a counter that counts fork/clone calls, and you can read it from grep ^processes /proc/stat , so check this counter before and after you read the list of processes, and if it didn't change, then you couldn't have missed any process that still lives. < 1457527763 832684 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it did? < 1457527855 345999 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.informatik.uni-kiel.de/~curry/listarchive/0017.html < 1457527863 40540 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolang version: < 1457527910 848249 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :0. genuinely semantically interesting new esolangs 1. syntax replacements for other languages 2. brainfuck derivatives 3. brainfuck syntax replacements < 1457527931 563197 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :where each number there exists 2x more languages of that type < 1457527979 330823 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: alternate solution by pts is this: setreuid(0, target_uid); then drop the CAP_KILL capability; then kill(-1, SIGKILL); this should magically make kill(-1,) have permission only to kill the right processes, without giving the user permission to harm your process. < 1457528019 789726 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice! < 1457528029 112085 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll test this < 1457528034 209835 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no warranty < 1457528035 482459 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for either < 1457528050 270992 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-aiheagdtctusshgw JOIN :#esoteric < 1457528091 125372 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :be very careful, you could either get a solution that has a race condition (but you can tell that only if you read the kernel source waist deep), or just kill all processes of your system < 1457528129 327328 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as always, it's pretty hard to prove that a particular race condition that depends on multi-cpu scheduling does or does not exist < 1457528143 651163 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:feff:ff:fe00:316b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay relaxed memory < 1457528168 413233 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :best add some sleep between the tests if you try to ptrace this admin kill process from a user process < 1457528496 361735 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1457528805 622113 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1457528958 213438 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1457529103 877683 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457529611 540155 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel JOIN :#esoteric < 1457530179 247247 :jaboja!~jaboja@eml127.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1457530816 542875 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1457531430 240003 :jaboja!~jaboja@eml127.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1457531982 189282 :earendel!~earendel@unaffiliated/earendel JOIN :#esoteric < 1457532355 792994 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1457533560 51340 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1457533720 661903 :spiette!~spiette@x-132-204-251-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1457533760 644594 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1457533850 639750 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457534243 20645 :p34k!~p34k@nat-wh-wz4-12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1457534307 774521 :jaboja!~jaboja@eml127.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1457534531 439158 :dingbat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vxvtzqcbhsrtdwzn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1457535617 420031 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ask ais523 Web of lies? < 1457535617 590426 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1457536057 90538 :lambda-11235!~lambda-11@47.208.113.50 JOIN :#esoteric < 1457536644 917352 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1457537064 387964 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1457537152 527490 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: SIGSTOP all of the user's processes until you're sure all of them are stopped, and then SIGKILL them < 1457537185 541122 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully no malicious processes will notice that their children/siblings got SIGSTOPped in time < 1457537259 106690 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: someone has suggested that, but I don't see how that would work, unless either you stop all processes on the system (not only the users'). < 1457537286 115452 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Why wouldn't just stopping the user's processes do? < 1457537291 834938 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: how do you make sure all processes are stopped, and why is that easier than making sure all processes were killed? < 1457537313 193546 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: I mean, you stop some processes, but how do you know there aren't more processes you missed because user processes are forking and exitting like crazy? < 1457537318 818059 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have two processes that monitor each other, and start each other up again if either of them is killed < 1457537364 244800 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I assume you'd notice the processes piling up then < 1457537365 889812 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: er yes, but you can also have two processes start each other up again if either of them is stopped, or just fork more processes if either of them is stopped, or just fork more processes no matter what all the time < 1457537387 530937 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: the processes are not only forking (like a fork bomb) but also exitting at the same rate, < 1457537405 545465 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's always say about 20 malicious processes at any time, but it's always different ones < 1457537418 504575 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could keep forking and the parent exitting so that their pid changes < 1457537461 353470 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Any snapshot of the currently running processes would see that there are processes by that user running < 1457537483 351772 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: but how do you get an atomic snapshot in first place? < 1457537506 416916 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it matters if it's atomic. You can't exit until after you've forked < 1457537509 812454 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: in linux, you normally find out about processes by reading the /proc directory, then reading files (say /proc/*/stat ) under them to find out about them < 1457537573 279131 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: new malicious processes can get forked and their parent exit between the start and the end of your listing processes < 1457537623 142066 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, you're right, they might have lower PIDs < 1457537640 450143 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if /proc can get listed atomically, possibly not < 1457537694 95979 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: even if you can list it atomically (I don't know, you'd have to dive the kernel sources for how getdents works on it), you can't examine the /proc/*/stat files at the same time to tell which of the processes those are of that user. < 1457537710 514119 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Just knowing that there are such malicious processes would be enough to take further steps < 1457537725 721852 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you'd know, because having processes disappear so quickly is unusual < 1457537727 321242 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: yes, but how do you even find that out? that's the point of the questoin < 1457537748 711545 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: ok, but can you give an algorithm to find this out that definitely works? < 1457537785 482916 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect there is some other, more robust method anyway < 1457537886 681720 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: A good starting point would be making all of the user's files unreadable < 1457537907 224125 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: how is that even relevant? and how would you even start to do that without first killing their processes which could create files? < 1457537908 791658 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that won't help against fork, it will help against exec* < 1457537946 58745 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I imagine making /tmp unreadable/unwritable to that user would be hard < 1457537963 140887 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I think they should at the very least have had some blinking lights in a box for AlphaGo." -- exactly < 1457538295 573462 :lynn_!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1457538375 961755 :lynn__!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1457538470 983190 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1457538553 558363 :lynn_!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1457538847 676963 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1457538993 863003 :lynn__!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1457539070 40024 :bender|!~benderx2@2404:e800:e61a:41d:f430:c660:b7ce:2f32 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1457539282 135173 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-90-85.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1457539452 631331 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1457539507 172947 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1457539910 172604 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1457541381 82978 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lee Se-dol said in the prior interview that "It will be a matter of me winning 5-0 or winning 4-1." Later, he took a little bit more defensive approach considering DeepMind(AlphaGo)'s learning ability, but still, it's a shocking victory for the AI. < 1457541381 316910 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lee lost the very first match. Still 4 matches to go, but just one defeat itself is enough to shock the Go community. < 1457541468 220201 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: yep. will be interesting and historical. < 1457541891 947239 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1457542294 291385 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My neural net thinks there's a historical language called Middle Worse. < 1457542355 275350 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine that's a dialect of Middle English centered in Worcestershire < 1457542684 908027 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a dump: https://jsfiddle.net/opo2rom0/ < 1457542713 3545 :lynn_!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1457542800 795049 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-008-107.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Kinda looks like it started writing “Middle Welsh” and then switched to “Old Norse” after the W. < 1457542863 999103 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1457543032 104321 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would make sense. < 1457543044 667095 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1457543075 459252 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, looks like I accidentally killed the training session instead of pausing it. < 1457543115 975690 :lynn_!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1457545920 215878 :dingbat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-clnwiqjuyoggeigh JOIN :#esoteric < 1457545953 243039 :llue!~gnomebad@cpc15-croy20-2-0-cust489.croy.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457545953 376373 :llue!~gnomebad@cpc15-croy20-2-0-cust489.croy.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host < 1457545953 376434 :llue!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu JOIN :#esoteric < 1457545953 376462 :llue!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1457545969 592050 :llue!~gnomebad@cpc15-croy20-2-0-cust489.croy.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457545979 610397 :llue!~gnomebad@cpc15-croy20-2-0-cust489.croy.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host < 1457545979 743777 :llue!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu JOIN :#esoteric < 1457545986 953565 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1457546464 53506 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457546864 141625 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1457550828 570950 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa whoa whoa, new game of life spaceship < 1457550831 868394 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://twitter.com/McFunkypants/status/707584950216712192 < 1457550906 884512 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW < 1457550936 440349 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :On my computer "XkbBell" makes sounds but "XBell" does not. Do you know how to fix this? < 1457550973 660713 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Disconnect the speaker. < 1457551061 477229 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That will just remove all sounds, and I am not trying to remove all sounds. What I intend it to do is so that "XBell" result in same sound as "XkbBell" < 1457551119 715417 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If a compatible keyboard extension isn't present in the X server, XkbBell calls XBell with the specified display and percent, and returns False. Otherwise, XkbBell calls XkbDeviceBell with the specified display, window, percent, and name, a device_spec of XkbUseCoreKbd, a bell_class of XkbDfltXIClass, and a bell_id of XkbDfltXIId, and returns True." < 1457551323 892447 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is amazing!!!!!!!!!! < 1457551409 262491 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I could read that in the documentation on my computer already, but it does not answer my question at all. < 1457551438 136427 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Wow, that's a neat one. < 1457551521 170650 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Congratulations, @zdr! New spaceship speeds don't come along every day, or even every year -- and most new speeds need a big awkward construction, not a tiny new Life form that fits inside a 6x12 bounding box. I bet a glider synthesis for the new c/10 will come along pretty quick." < 1457551523 732667 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how fast the thread turned into figuring out a name for it < 1457551543 320868 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that new ship is quite the find < 1457551768 772253 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Copperhead < 1457551777 31616 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can this have not been found! < 1457551918 947594 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only a new spaceship but a new speed < 1457552031 264993 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It appears that low-hanging fruit have been harvested clean during the 46 years of Life research… or, more precisely, it appeared so before zdr’s post." < 1457552418 148392 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, that’s pretty good. Though, oblique spaceships have been observed in life, like the parallel hbk. < 1457552420 895041 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does he mean by this? < 1457552470 467161 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's not an elementary oblique spaceship < 1457552702 992549 :jaboja!~jaboja@eml127.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1457553343 127193 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-90-85.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1457553441 958045 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37.219.114.166 JOIN :#esoteric < 1457554006 193323 :jaboja64!~jaboja@ejr220.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1457554240 17047 :jaboja!~jaboja@eml127.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1457554357 565171 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1457554531 359217 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blog.cmpxchg8b.com/2012/09/fun-with-constrained-programming.html < 1457554919 523948 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1457554967 552113 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1457554986 77632 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Client Quit < 1457555026 533375 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@74-114-87-72.dynamic.asdk12.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1457555027 345417 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1457555122 404827 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1457555199 240246 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1457555302 494204 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@74-114-87-72.dynamic.asdk12.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1457555313 323120 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1457555385 251616 :lambda-11235!~lambda-11@47.208.113.50 QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1457555863 993833 :sioux000!~user@net-188-217-149-116.cust.vodafonedsl.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1457556288 36149 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1457556307 235987 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFr3K2DORc8 GUYS < 1457556359 927936 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait where's the video < 1457556368 529087 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no video < 1457556392 502881 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel betrayed < 1457556417 635214 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1457556747 174711 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ityw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFr3K2DORc8 < 1457556753 299709 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1457556759 31609 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's the same link < 1457556785 303191 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, that one worked for me earlier today, but I'm not patient enough < 1457556831 688894 :sioux000!~user@net-188-217-149-116.cust.vodafonedsl.it PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HAVE A PROBLEM. TO ENTER IN A ROOM AS I LOOK ? I HAVE TO CHAT WITH FRIENDS OF WHICH I KNOW THE NAMES AND THE ROOMS . How do I access ? < 1457556843 265748 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: help < 1457556843 411716 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: from: dm date: wed, 9 dec 92 00:45:10 -0500 from: < 1457556849 378764 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1457556850 512780 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1457556850 728211 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon* lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube < 1457556860 843607 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style irc < 1457556860 977076 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) < 1457556869 242757 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: welcome our new friend sioux000 < 1457556869 976126 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: was going right you couldn't turn away from the top" can be implemented easily.) silly me stepping in front. when the recursive call with the defaults and ( 1) < 1457556884 103165 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what style is ss? < 1457556954 755847 :sioux000!~user@net-188-217-149-116.cust.vodafonedsl.it PRIVMSG #esoteric :THANK YOU. I'm trying to understand the functioning of pidgin:) < 1457556985 818239 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1457557026 342730 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style ss < 1457557026 515919 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings) < 1457557031 887086 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1457557036 962934 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1457557051 376624 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :would've named it shakespeare, though < 1457557061 631827 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hello < 1457557062 124983 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: william. a good morall my lord. troilus. well know they what they can give, to have't with saying good-morrow. < 1457557063 59783 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Tell us about yorick < 1457557063 427631 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: scena quarta. no my good lord! a noble gentleman of rome, even like a stony image, cold and numme. ah now no more < 1457557076 763343 :sioux000!~user@net-188-217-149-116.cust.vodafonedsl.it PRIVMSG #esoteric :pidgin is' safe? anonymous? It connects to the external server as tor ? < 1457557111 695653 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1457557138 528630 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? pidgin < 1457557159 235755 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that lag < 1457557162 641812 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pidgin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1457557166 212751 :sioux000!~user@net-188-217-149-116.cust.vodafonedsl.it PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1457557184 27875 :sioux000!~user@net-188-217-149-116.cust.vodafonedsl.it PRIVMSG #esoteric :pidgin . i chat now with pidgin software < 1457557195 362850 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can read < 1457557222 969330 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is probably not the bestplace to learn how to irc with something that is as horrible for ircing as pidgin < 1457557225 100101 :sioux000!~user@net-188-217-149-116.cust.vodafonedsl.it PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes becouse you use pidgin...or no? < 1457557349 723871 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn pidgin is an esoteric chat client whose fundamental design principle is based on the pidgin hole principle: if n+1 messages are sent over n protocols than at least two messages are sent over the same protocol. < 1457557360 492222 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'pidgin': pidgin is an esoteric chat client whose fundamental design principle is based on the pidgin hole principle: if n+1 messages are sent over n protocols than at least two messages are sent over the same protocol. < 1457557383 960358 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` sed -i 's/based on //' wisdom/pidgin < 1457557386 463046 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1457557411 208139 :`^_^!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1457557414 208166 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(feel free to pidg in with something funnier) < 1457557474 943496 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh darn < 1457557497 341594 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1457557513 870391 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` sed -i 's/ than/, then/' wisdom/pidgin < 1457557516 286138 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1457557590 503814 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn The pidgin hole principle states that if n+1 messages are sent over n protocols, then at least two messages are sent over the same protocol. < 1457557592 809114 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'pidgin': The pidgin hole principle states that if n+1 messages are sent over n protocols, then at least two messages are sent over the same protocol. < 1457557608 715792 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think the rest was superfluous.) < 1457557646 877842 :sioux000!~user@net-188-217-149-116.cust.vodafonedsl.it PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-/ < 1457557937 476402 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a map with bridges and some of them overlap < 1457557964 23753 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i remove the minimum amount of bridges to make them non overlap? < 1457558082 493070 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i haven't started doing it yet) < 1457558094 116224 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :so my idea is to check the intersection points < 1457558121 668097 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would start with the "obvious" greedy algorithm < 1457558124 242719 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :find which bridge intersects most other bridges < 1457558126 540176 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea < 1457558144 279822 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know if it is allowed for two different program both using Xlib to use the same Display pointer? < 1457558160 787301 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: not sure if it's optimal < 1457558161 916057 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If loaded by dlopen or something like that) < 1457558173 85641 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: well it's not. < 1457558210 458742 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you show an example? < 1457558277 6515 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/brrr.png < 1457558302 491194 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1457558308 95761 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, oops, that still works, mompl < 1457558339 341278 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :updated < 1457558364 635891 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1457558496 846378 :sioux000!~user@net-188-217-149-116.cust.vodafonedsl.it QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1457558559 918314 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1457558591 1170 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can be phrased naturally as a maximum independent set problem (with bridges as vertices and edges between crossing bridges)... so it may well be NP-hard, but as long as bridges are straight lines, this is not a proof. < 1457559651 388301 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@74-114-87-72.dynamic.asdk12.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1457560358 102274 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@74-114-87-72.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: In an environment where @ cannot be represented as the @ sign, what would be a good letter to replace it? (greek, english, or one of those with a diacritic) < 1457560375 379849 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@74-114-87-72.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ONE diacritic, before you do what I know you're thinking) < 1457560462 678389 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: one of É Á à Ó Ð Ž since those appear in the @ place in some of the national iso-646 character sets < 1457560477 393966 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@74-114-87-72.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good idea < 1457560482 40337 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@74-114-87-72.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go with à < 1457560530 134477 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: do you have a context for what the @ that you want to replace stands for here? that might give a better choice < 1457560540 440399 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about ∂? < 1457560557 810251 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@74-114-87-72.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Sgeo's @. The one which's absolute value is -1 < 1457560567 690231 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: is that a letter? wait, is it the derivative symbol or the crazy letter from very rare languages that looks like that? < 1457560568 929571 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37.219.114.166 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1457560585 194463 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both < 1457560614 715139 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: eg. if it stands for the player avatar in the text-based game map of a game, then É would make sense because it abbreviates "én" < 1457560647 81394 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@74-114-87-72.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Ah < 1457560657 539255 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@74-114-87-72.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I like à < 1457560892 861145 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@74-114-87-72.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm also adding ï, where |ï|=i < 1457560984 470445 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if it stood for the array sigil in perl, or the related symbol in bash used inside a bracket index to get all elements of an array variable, then you could use "Ö" as a mnemonic for "összes" < 1457561028 847633 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if it stood as an abbreviation of HEAD in git command line, then in theory you could use "É" but it would be best to just write "HEAD" in full instead of abbreviating it. < 1457561106 778746 :mihow!~mihow@c-76-27-211-133.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457561164 791191 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it stands for a separator symbol in a git reference spec that refers to the previous commit in the history of a commit, or for a separator between a filename and peg revision number in subversion, then I'm not sure what letter would be the best. < 1457561338 184093 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"T" would be approperiate, but it would easily clash with other stuff < 1457562256 823848 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: I'm pretty sure now your bridge problem is NP-hard by a reduction from planar 3SAT. lousy sketch of gadgets: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/br3s.png ... the literal will in general have 2n bridges arranged in a small 2n-gon, alternating between true and false; the idea is that exactly n of the bridges must be chosen (in the sketch, n=2). in the clause, the incoming edges come from literals;... < 1457562258 13916 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is |ı| also i? < 1457562262 830074 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :...the idea here is that exactly one additional bridge must be chosen, which is only possible if one of the incoming bridges wasn't chosen, i.e. the corresponding literal was true. so take a planar 3sat-problem, encode it that way (it's fine if some bridges from literals are not used in clause gadgets); add all the minimal bridge requirements and test whether the maximal number of bridges that... < 1457562267 980761 :jaboja64!~jaboja@ejr220.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1457562268 867880 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :...can be selected without remaining intersections matches that bound. < 1457562392 481842 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh heh, you're doing NP-completeness proofs now? < 1457562413 519380 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardness. it's an optimization problem after all. < 1457562452 670488 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that why it's in NP? optmization problems usually are, if you turn them to decision problems with the right comparator < 1457562480 454209 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those are different problems. < 1457562577 502418 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The corresponding decision problem here that's NP-complete is checking whether you can select at least k non-crossing bridges. < 1457562725 743340 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my main reason to be picky is that I think of NP in terms of certificates; here, certificates of a lower bound is small (it's in NP); I have no clue how to produce a small certificate of optimality (at least naively, that's co-NP)) < 1457562789 79446 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you only care about what you can do with an NP oracle (SAT solver ;-) ), then this distinction doesn't matter. < 1457562897 859177 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, but you usually define the decision problem to ask whether the optimal solution is better or equal to an input number, because if you define it that way, it becomes NP. < 1457562903 16434 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, is this really the first time I've done some complexity theoretic reduction on here? I don't know, but it seems a bit unlikely. < 1457562914 273341 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: asking whether the solution is optimal needn't be NP (it still is for some optimization problems of course) < 1457562931 405577 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I have no idea if it's the first time < 1457563005 852230 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, I do like this stuff < 1457563884 985144 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ds01-214-177.dynamic.mtsallstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457564213 439226 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1457564256 658777 :spiette!~spiette@x-132-204-251-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1457564267 723679 :haavardp!freebsd@haavard.me QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1457564288 978291 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1457564324 847549 :MoALTz_!~no@78-11-183-124.static.ip.netia.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1457564327 762176 :haavardp!freebsd@haavard.me JOIN :#esoteric < 1457564471 152607 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1457564515 247897 :MoALTz!~no@78-11-183-124.static.ip.netia.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1457564641 365795 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@74-114-87-72.dynamic.asdk12.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1457564687 652704 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1457564907 61219 :lambda-11235!~lambda-11@47.208.113.50 JOIN :#esoteric < 1457564953 767735 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1457565095 511746 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah e left :/ < 1457565112 25248 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ stands for an a with an i dot after it, so ai maybe? < 1457565153 739047 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? food < 1457565155 90723 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe a with an accent? < 1457565169 512726 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :food? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1457565182 814416 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( would you like oerjanic food? ) < 1457565225 7652 :lambda-11235!~lambda-11@47.208.113.50 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1457565255 123906 :lambda-11235!~lambda-11@47-208-113-50.erkacmtk03.res.dyn.suddenlink.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457565406 521852 :adu!~ajr@c-73-133-129-229.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457565433 68799 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-aiheagdtctusshgw QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1457565464 201924 :adu!~ajr@c-73-133-129-229.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1457565474 901147 :`^_^!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1457565769 165789 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-psjfnznxyhnuchaw JOIN :#esoteric < 1457566887 139665 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1457567227 575826 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If one wanted to implement a browser < 1457567234 76545 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would be the steps one would take? < 1457567239 395016 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I'm planning on doing that < 1457567242 743833 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd just be crazy < 1457567247 302796 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511664.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got more sodium memory for my laptop < 1457567255 361801 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) get the support of a billion dollar company < 1457567280 814185 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK. < 1457567288 645638 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Next? < 1457567318 508318 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) despair that implementing a browser is mostly about supporting old cruft < 1457567336 545950 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*meticulously supporting < 1457567455 495512 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3) take the pills the nice people in white coats are handing you, also stop trying to get out of that jacket it'll just hurt more < 1457567510 571405 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4) die miserable and alone < 1457567516 762744 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that about covers it hth < 1457567520 725106 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK < 1457567523 887176 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good to know < 1457567559 197579 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511664.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddamn windows update < 1457567578 333632 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Would you rather be vulnerable to h4x0r5? < 1457567909 832843 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fit the reboot in while he was brushing the teeth earlier < 1457567951 829127 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it helps that i don't leave my computer on for long periods when not using it