< 1454716817 993724 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually FORTE lacks the register part, i guess. < 1454716823 379435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: C-INTERCAL requires a command line option, but lets you assign directly with the option < 1454716834 89986 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLC-INTERCAL doesn't require the option but you can't just say DO #1 <- .1 < 1454716851 430961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to sneak the assignment in indirectly, buried inside overloads < 1454716862 21244 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Wouldn't it be assigning a... yeah, you got it right < 1454716918 819753 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Wait, why were you recognized for INTERCAL? (I admit I had to check the wiki to see if you invented it and it somehow never occured to me xD) < 1454716921 779639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it really depends on whether you're assigning the register to the constant, or the value of theregister to the constant < 1454716931 387055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: I maintain the most popular implementation < 1454716941 773217 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ah, makes sense < 1454716953 366722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I didn't invent the language itself, I did invent many features that modern implementations have < 1454716963 286429 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Now consider <-1, v> < 1454716967 569805 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although most come originally from CLC-INTERCAL, which is more experimental < 1454716982 391775 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to allow registers to be sets for that to work, IIAC < 1454717004 62130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: nah, that's like writing *(&(&x)) = y; in C < 1454717029 207288 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Maybe it's that I was thinking of < 1454717032 350638 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's it < 1454717032 908932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so long as some memory location happens to be holding the value of &x, then &(&x) is perhaps not impossible to define < 1454717033 746439 :mauris_!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454717051 103505 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: ooh < 1454717058 111856 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1454717072 873272 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x, y) is, if I am correct, assigning the register referenced by the x chain of length r to all registers that reference it directly < 1454717073 927488 :mauris_!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo hppavilion[1] starts a lot of projects and finishes few < 1454717086 651887 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mauris_: Yeah, that's correct < 1454717092 585693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mauris_: hppavilion[1] is more of an ideas person < 1454717100 83682 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm hoping that the ideas will become higher quality over time < 1454717106 170661 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mauris_: I know starting a project I'll probably never finish it, but it's fun while it lasts < 1454717136 138276 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-1, v> reminds me of threaded intercal somehow < 1454717150 488036 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that's about control rather than data flow < 1454717186 871782 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, means backwards, and sets the register under the r-chain to the value directly referenced by -1... I think might just be setting the register at the end of the chain to its own address < 1454717216 306331 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait, 0 is an immediate value... yeah, I think that's right. But it probably isn't, knowing me. < 1454717233 534756 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454717257 139993 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Is that right? < 1454717267 329 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, is equivalent to what I mentioned earlier < 1454717267 826885 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: hm <1, -1> would be setting a register to several potential values. maybe that could be forking like threaded intercal < 1454717279 797650 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah, that sounds good < 1454717293 331476 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Though I was thinking of treating the register as a set instead < 1454717302 996948 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1454717308 717437 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm trying to keep this mathematically rigorous, at least a little bit < 1454717309 625402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's more like quantum intercal (which isn't like quantum computing, but fits your description quite well) < 1454717330 733991 :mauris_!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1454717354 380584 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, neither one is a good idea in the long run, given that you can't do either sets OR forking like that on most real machines < 1454717367 910047 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can, it's just slow < 1454717375 672965 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, yes < 1454717390 826070 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And it requires elaborate tricks with the memory to do it < 1454717406 573734 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the value of "elaborate tricks" containing "linked lists" as an element < 1454717421 420720 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and . Consider that for a moment. < 1454717476 698434 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course, you probably need a complex memory space of complex numbers for that, but then it's just trivial) < 1454717483 127328 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: well if the i's have the same parameter then that _might_ copy a value two times if you're lucky. < 1454717495 428276 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1454717498 395481 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you meant that i < 1454717499 573354 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wut. < 1454717506 545520 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes /i/ did < 1454717537 44250 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Buddha tisk) < 1454717542 597795 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what that would mean since multiplication of the depths isn't a well-defined thing even with integers. < 1454717543 529136 :mauris_!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454717557 946353 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Multiplication of the depths? < 1454717561 421244 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right < 1454717573 692440 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of the r- and v-chain lengths < 1454717581 581842 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: for i to make sense you'd need i*i = -1 to mean something meaningful. < 1454717589 292298 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah, I know < 1454717592 212677 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-wvtouzbqykoupgrw QUIT :Excess Flood < 1454717608 876586 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Really, I just like shoving complex numbers where they shouldn't go < 1454717614 467042 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1454717618 156186 :mauris__!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454717642 782713 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: But /maybe/ we can define where r and v are real numbers < 1454717653 270322 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKEPTICAL < 1454717661 221578 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :start with 1/2, i guess. < 1454717663 668361 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I agree, but it might be possible < 1454717672 529844 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1454717673 620032 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: 1/2 in which place? < 1454717676 701013 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you mean for each one < 1454717680 77665 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm... < 1454717683 114145 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :anywhere. < 1454717695 470758 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :<1, 0> is SET, <1, 1> is MOV, so what's <1, 0.5>? < 1454717706 408085 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-ubzulixpghubuejf JOIN :#esoteric < 1454717709 135781 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will now go on a spirit walk to figure it out < 1454717763 550412 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if you're very lucky there's some formula that gives the depth n reference and which somehow makes sense for non-integers < 1454717770 266624 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly whatever operation half-dereferences an address, doing it twice fully dereferences the address < 1454717773 48230 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Perhaps it's some sort of weighted operation? Where 0 clobbers, 1 follows, etc.? < 1454717779 425053 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the gamma function generalizes factorial < 1454717789 188280 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ah, yes < 1454717799 340385 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the problem is that dereference isn't continuous or even monotonic < 1454717808 528515 :mauris_!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1454717815 614862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus you wouldn't expect its iteration to be defined for non-integers < 1454717822 304045 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also a formula that allows non-integral time integration/differentiation that way < 1454717836 326159 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I don't think it works < 1454717840 343071 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for nice enough functions < 1454717850 592160 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454717852 427994 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back to the usage of multiplication in chains < 1454717864 717248 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sc?hwart?z functions, or the like) < 1454717894 111576 :mauris__!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1454717908 233855 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically, fourier transformation changes diffentiation into multiplication by a function) < 1454717930 849793 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do define this operation, we can have Two And A Half Star Programmer :-) < 1454717939 647899 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: xD < 1454717975 58541 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :three star programmer is basically <3,++> < 1454717983 833685 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. it's a rmw rather than just a copy < 1454718044 529973 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of not finishing things, I should work on that text editor I always said I'd make < 1454718069 159324 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has a hunch that _if_ you found a nice formula that calculates depth-n reference on a set of registers, then non-integer depths might not be in the set
< 1454718110 227140 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. if you try to repeat reference 1/2 times on something involving registers {0,...,n}, it might well answer register 1/2 or something. < 1454718113 541884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, let's think about it this way < 1454718128 628560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dereference is basically evaluating an arbitrary function, because you can put /anything/ in the registers < 1454718157 479784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, this means that for any function f, we need to be able to find a function g such that for all arguments x, g(g(x)) = f(x) < 1454718159 221108 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(inspired by fourier transforms, i think the registers should be arranged as elements on a cyclic group) < 1454718159 997814 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So for <1, 0.5> I basically need something halfway between pythons `regs[x] = y` and `regs[x] = regs[y]` < 1454718180 790506 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What's the ++ in <3, ++>?? < 1454718185 379781 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as e^(2pi*i*k/n) < 1454718197 703485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: increment; you're reading the value in the register, incrementing it, storing it back < 1454718213 967901 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ah? < 1454718215 350250 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1454718234 582903 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's not covered by the <> notation; I haven't gotten to arithmetic yet (I'm doing conditionals next) < 1454718291 508802 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and if anybody here ever uses this seriously, remember that angled brackets are preferred when possible over <> in the notation xD < 1454718360 311415 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :demnod brackets < 1454718405 339985 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I suppose perhaps we should do square roots instead of normal fractions and work up from there < 1454718414 97676 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, what's ? < 1454718470 550339 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 obviously < 1454718482 878139 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: How? < 1454718493 808445 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That makes 0 sense < 1454718498 52363 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm facetiously assuming that's an inner product < 1454718499 425642 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(PI) < 1454718500 709394 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1454718505 8395 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK xD < 1454718509 248135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: that isn't easier, unless you're taking the square root of a square number < 1454718516 474393 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue what an inner product is, so yeah < 1454718526 197990 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Unless we make a decision about what it should do < 1454718534 219326 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the generalisation of the dot product < 1454718549 42851 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :our company needs to reevaluate our inner product strategy < 1454718549 591670 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a) I've never seen that notation for inner products before, b) inner product on real/complex numbers is just normal multiplication < 1454718554 279136 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably, calling (x, y) twice should be equivalent to <2, 0>(x, f(y)) < 1454718566 514674 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ...you've never seen angle brackets for inner product? < 1454718570 809241 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, but you clobber one of the registries in the process xD < 1454718579 382630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I'm more used to writing it with a dot < 1454718583 558676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like with dot products < 1454718595 720923 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :dot product has different implications though < 1454718597 241099 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except no you don't < 1454718598 516966 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm... < 1454718639 953783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :angle brackets and comma, to me, are tuple notation < 1454718656 985883 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i think on complex numbers you should conjugate one argument hth < 1454718660 476350 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well clearly, <1, v>(x, y) twice is just <1, v>(x, y) once, IIRC < 1454718671 401980 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh right, that rings a bell now you've mentioned it < 1454718702 268299 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hunch is that dot products should be positive definite so you can orthonormalise < 1454718710 729976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: now I'm having an hppavilion[1]-like idea of "what if, from an inner product space's inner product, you could extract either of the original arguments by reversing it somehow?" < 1454718737 746662 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :but weirdly WP doesn't mention positive-definiteness as a prerequisite for gram-schmidt < 1454718784 279303 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has never picked up any difference in meaning between dot and inner product
< 1454718797 55978 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, inner products are bilinear, i.e. linear maps from the tensor product to the underlying field, so on any space with dimension greater than 1 they'll destroy data irreversibly < 1454718807 674893 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, should repetition of an operation be multiplication or addition of those operations? I'd say multiplication, because <1, v>(x, y) twice is the same as once < 1454718827 825141 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if x=y < 1454718840 734062 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait... < 1454718843 921271 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it isn't < 1454718847 828516 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it? < 1454718855 298275 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm... < 1454718877 390549 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they aren't the same. < 1454718897 39009 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i have seen both dot, ( , ), < , > (i think) and of course the physicists' < | > < 1454718912 737857 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OH MY GOD IT'S BRA-KET < 1454718917 108781 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY IS IT FOLLOWING ME < 1454718924 636488 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT DOES IT WANT WITH ME < 1454718967 389597 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: it wants to bra-ek you hth < 1454719056 575594 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: incidentally, my computer tried to prevent me from sending that < | > line by disconnecting me at the precise moment i pressed return hth < 1454719103 65610 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :bra-ket's some hybrid thing where is a column vector, is = |A> . |B> < 1454719613 32663 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and |A> being A inside an arrow instead of the arrow on top < 1454719840 463530 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that's a neat trick < 1454719892 967253 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :|A> is useless syntactic sugar, more or less < 1454719895 175419 :Reece!~Gremlin@host-92-13-209-151.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454719899 259229 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1454720384 689674 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, exactly < 1454720422 674704 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so it's projection of any dimensional space onto a line < 1454720528 169472 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the projection I was thinking of was I-|A> the exact same thing as A < 1454721079 313224 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1454721546 161973 :jaboja!~jaboja@ejq239.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1454722722 907431 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :From AnnieFlow on the wiki: Any object that is like a stack (queues, sets, etc.) can take the place of any stack in the program < 1454722863 915101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably those are meant to be variants of the language < 1454722971 766498 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, what I have a problem is with is "Any object that is like a stack (queues, sets, etc.)" < 1454722973 997579 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sets" < 1454722981 779401 :mihow!~mihow@50-206-98-70-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1454722984 713100 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sets [are like stacks]" < 1454722992 682604 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW ARE SETS LIKE STACKS < 1454722998 536584 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERROBANG < 1454723009 985472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can insert elements into them and remove elements from them < 1454723012 14557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like a push and a pop < 1454723021 899503 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can think of a set as being an unordered queue that removes duplicates < 1454723037 406276 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note that the version with sets is sub-TC as it doesn't have infinite memory, due to the duplicate removal) < 1454723055 581009 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bags < 1454723214 243508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the version with bags is /probably/ TC? I'm not sure though < 1454723222 225531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's even worse at flow control than fractran < 1454723284 439316 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But there isn't an operation nateomorphic to pop- no method that extracts an element from it and returns it then changes what the next element removed will be < 1454723308 54590 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: "remove an element at random" < 1454723312 882496 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Perhaps < 1454723338 757220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: now I'm really interested as to whether BagFlow is TC < 1454723357 680786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/especially/ because it manages to be a weird Minsky machine variant and I've made a lot of those recently < 1454723445 725517 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically TAFM level 1, except that decrements sometimes fail at random < 1454723455 435999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, not level 1 < 1454723456 836554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :level 2 < 1454723468 115905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAFM level 2 except that decrements are sometimes critical at random < 1454723510 926895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and incrementing is free, you don't need to do stupid control shenanigans < 1454723515 116440 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes things easier < 1454723569 812780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, let's consider the more general question: is a full-powered Minksy machine where decrements sometimes fail at random TC-probability-1? < 1454723607 914786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't obviously use the normal modular arithmetic tricks with this because you can't guarantee that the counter is actually zero, unless there's some trick I haven't realised < 1454723705 842378 :^v!~^v@172.56.11.78 JOIN :#esoteric < 1454723818 314425 :mihow!~mihow@50-206-98-70-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454723857 858772 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How should my ELK runtime go about doing GUI? < 1454723871 698964 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a serious ay < 1454723872 978913 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*way < 1454723960 388134 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what about the following BF derivative (which can be implemented in BagFlow)?: BF but all loops must be balanced, cells are unbounded both negative and positive, and a loop has a 1/(n+1) chance of terminating (where n is the value of the tested cell) < 1454723983 25080 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: normally a VM is not responsible for GUI itself < 1454723989 320192 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ah < 1454724370 531097 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1454724556 739370 :Treio!~Treio@87.244.233.250 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1454724778 116413 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454724788 922372 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What is responsible then? < 1454724809 225918 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :libraries, normally < 1454724814 293443 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK... < 1454724828 757927 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And how does it work, precisely? For a VM like the CLR? < 1454724830 233618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the VM will often have a "run native code" instruction to let the libraries inside the VM call functions in the libraries outside the VM < 1454724841 614263 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with both parts involved < 1454724850 207359 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ah? < 1454724852 437606 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1454724871 265484 :mihow!~mihow@50-206-98-70-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1454724901 895649 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And if I wanted to make the VM do GUI, for the sake of ease and cross platformness and esoterocity? < 1454724910 173007 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(esoterotic?) < 1454724938 912380 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Relevant: https://xkcd.com/915/) < 1454724941 206416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: then you'd have a syscall instruction < 1454724947 748528 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK... < 1454724950 748708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that the code inside the VM could use to get the VM itself to do its GUI stuff < 1454724979 387648 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: To be clear, this is a VM like the CLR for .NET or the JVM. It's a bytecode. < 1454724991 95314 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know what a bytecode VM is < 1454724995 617823 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mentioned the CLR already < 1454725022 594321 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know some things about some VMs but I don't know CLR/.NET/JVM much. I am familiar with Z-machine, and with "Famicom VM" (which originally was not a VM) < 1454725023 638182 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know you know < 1454725050 588944 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I did? OK. < 1454725073 875605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is the Famicom VM the instruction set that Famicom emulators run? < 1454725080 838474 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z-machine has one unusual feature where the stack is not part of RAM but general-purpose registers are. < 1454725100 141404 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, although I am talking about an idealization < 1454725103 616603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that's not that unusual, the PIC microprocessor architecture works like that too < 1454725120 896178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I think just about the only things that aren't memory-mapped are the stack and the program that's running < 1454725165 468041 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Pfft. You should totally memory-map the program. < 1454725186 172198 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: in the PIC microprocessor architecture, the program actually has a different byte size from RAM < 1454725192 635203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 14 bits to the byte < 1454725219 768830 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That is blasphemy < 1454725222 253402 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :With Z-machine the program is memory-mapped, although most of it is inaccessible (only the first 64K is accessible for general-purpose access, the rest can store only packed strings and Z-code instructions and is read-only) < 1454725226 7472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a system call on some of the more powerful models that lets you copy from the program to RAM, though < 1454725246 208188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some of them even go the other way, letting you copy from RAM to program, but that's very slow as it has to reprogram its internal EEPROM to do so < 1454725250 893680 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :14-bits-to-the-byte is an abomination < 1454725252 455741 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Packed strings and Z-code instructions can exist within the first 64K too though, and may even be writable) < 1454725273 987755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite sure what this feature is for, but Microchip seem to have a philosophy of introducing random features in case they're useful < 1454725294 667852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also documenting what happens in situations most people would expect to be UB, just in case that comes in useful to people some day too < 1454725404 311411 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1454725404 488102 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If 14 bits lie with bytekind, as they lieth with a processor, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be sent to /dev/null; their blood shall be upon them." -- Linusveticus 20:13 < 1454725458 952027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, you're taking this really personally :-( < 1454725512 107171 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have implemented Z-machine in C and in JavaScript, and partially in 6502 assembly code, so far. (Although I now believe I have designed the API for the JavaScript Z-machine badly, since I now have better ideas about how to do it) < 1454725523 990609 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I do not like 14-bits-to-the-byte < 1454725539 826660 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 would be acceptable, but still incur my scorn because 16 /= 8 < 1454725554 108578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the instruction set presumably didn't need any other number of bytes < 1454725610 577912 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: If you don't want to use the full 16, scale it down to 8, or do something else with the design. < 1454725613 933842 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have designed instruction sets where the number of bits in one byte is 16 or 32, and even 7 once, as well as ones with different program/data memory < 1454725620 734386 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe some UTF-8 like bullshit, but on nybbles < 1454725628 313778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*any other number of bis < 1454725635 903604 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: now you're just wasting a bunch of memory for no reason < 1454725648 237063 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But don't try to have a byte s.t. len(byte) /in {2**x : x in N} < 1454725745 822062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of a technical reason for that < 1454725758 369013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw lots of different byte sizes were tried in the earlier history of computing < 1454725764 439702 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No, but there's a moral reason < 1454725768 622979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :settling on octets only happened in the last few decades < 1454725787 658971 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Uhm, the early history of computing was the 30s and 40s with Turing. < 1454725793 147013 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hth < 1454725804 825680 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike the number of bytes in your larger units, which does often have a reason to be a power of 2, there's no technical reason I can think of for the number of bits in a byte to be a power of 2 < 1454725808 986139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: I said "earlier" < 1454725841 307539 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It makes programmers more comfortable, and you don't have technical stuff without programmers. < 1454725843 484117 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There. < 1454725849 328535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, it took a while for electronic computers to outcompete mechanical and (later) for digital computers to outcompete analog < 1454725877 393036 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :digital computers were around early but from what I've managed to make out from old computer books, analog computers were more common for many years < 1454725884 977619 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if analog computers are used nowadays
< 1454725912 413371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not all that old, and when I was young, people often used to explicitly say "digital computer" to disambiguate < 1454725915 441153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays nobody bothers < 1454725918 985186 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is your opinion of JSZM? My own opinion is that the API could be improved and that it is a bit messy as is. Currently the "run" method is a generator function that yields stuff directly, and the methods defined by the front-end are ordinary functions. I think better would be, the "run" method never yields stuff directly but instead calls the front-end functions by "yield*" and they may then yield stuff. < 1454725940 481377 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "And the computre dost have a half score and four bits to every pyce of the meal" < 1454725944 962156 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- An old computer book < 1454725972 901030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't have any opinions about specific z-machine implementations, having not looked into any of them in details < 1454725978 693005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in detail < 1454726024 120439 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ds01-214-177.dynamic.mtsallstream.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1454726078 143290 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ds01-214-177.dynamic.mtsallstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454726081 78269 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ds01-214-177.dynamic.mtsallstream.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1454726102 805655 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, but what about this API design? Do you know JavaScript programming? (This API design isn't really specific to the internals of Z-machine) < 1454726133 964949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know that much JavaScript programming < 1454726140 156642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can write programs in it but don't use all its features < 1454726146 840639 :^v!~^v@172.56.11.78 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1454726282 794858 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you used any ES6 features? JSZM is using many ES6 features. They still didn't add macros and "goto" in ES6 though. < 1454726440 739123 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1454726482 128483 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You're kidding about goto, right? < 1454726499 489284 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: No < 1454726505 656433 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ... < 1454726520 749996 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(My Z-machine implementation in C is called ZORKMID ("Zork Machine Interpreter and Debugger"), and I have found it to be very useful when debugging other implementations!) < 1454726546 311520 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any z-machine impls in esolangs? < 1454726549 428488 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If zzo38 lie with gotokind, as they lieth with a FOR loop, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be sent to /dev/null; their blood shall be upon them." -- Linusveticus 20:13 < 1454726550 518103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, is the z-machine TC? < 1454726599 109426 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The only unbounded memory it has is the stack, so I don't expect so. < 1454726613 82955 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a PDA then < 1454726647 98958 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what I'd LOVE to see? < 1454726666 853563 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the actual limit of the stack in implementations usually isn't extremely large anyways, although the specification doesn't seem to preclude an unbounded stack.) < 1454726682 494485 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A company manufacture cheap computers reminiscent of old computers (like the PDP) so that we can get the retro experience of how computers worked "back in the day" < 1454726688 462142 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I now need to eat < 1454726689 301985 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bai < 1454726728 605341 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ZORKMID also reveals how unoptimized Infocom's story files are. I can think of a large number of ways to optimize their codes, which they did not do.) < 1454726915 922488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I assume they had no reason to optimize them because it would have taken developer time (therefore costing money) and the game ran fast enough anyway < 1454726999 156279 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1454727036 541642 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My optimizations would likely to improve both speed and size. < 1454727091 909068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how were the games distributed? < 1454727116 229601 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually on floppy disks together with the interpreter, I think < 1454727159 813657 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in terms of size, if the game fits onto the floppy disk, there's no cost savings in a smaller size unless you can save enough size to use a less capacious and thus cheaper design of floppy disk < 1454727191 65977 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They could have done that though, some computers floppy disk have less capacity than others < 1454727223 707698 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also since they cannot fit the entire story file in RAM at once, the non-preloaded-area had to be swapped, by reloading parts from the disk when needed. < 1454727438 463925 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible that they did not know an algorithm for encoding text with permanent shifts, so they only used temporary shifts; the algorithm is now known although it is slower than O(n) < 1454727521 758927 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One example of instruction coding is at address 29424 of Zork I they have the instruction "SET 31 -1" which encodes as five bytes (CD 4F 1F FF FF). It could be shortened to three bytes by encoding it as the BCOM instruction instead (probably also faster because the instruction decoding is simpler in such case). < 1454727823 540996 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The copyright notice could save fifteen bytes if permanent shifts were used < 1454727884 946520 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other thing to do for optimization is to decide what strings to place into the "frequent words" table; however I do not know a suitable algorithm for doing this optimally. < 1454728398 809959 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other possible optimizations include "frequent values optimization", "overlapping strings", "shared property tables", "truncated default properties table", "dynamic fwords", "BCOM immediate", "NEXT slot abuse", "gap filling", etc < 1454729244 26769 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1454729677 919203 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh SineBot showed up in the wp page i'm following < 1454729784 256998 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is what page? < 1454729798 529251 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talk:Planet Nine < 1454729855 393149 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i started following when the article was on the main page and thought it should have cooled down by now, but new issues keep coming up. < 1454729941 587752 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latest being raised by one of the original researchers, who is very new to wikipedia, thus the missing signatures < 1454729982 56284 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just remembered ais523 said he didn't think it was active, and i've seen so many missing signatures lately... < 1454730022 813949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I remember 0.999... < 1454730023 668904 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( how can you see them when they're missing ) < 1454730047 531454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that article was a mess even before it made the main page, with so many people not believing it < 1454730049 564355 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only got worse afterwards < 1454730053 305309 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1454730085 981018 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i thought this one was getting pretty neat until the expert showed up to tell everyone they'd misunderstood stuff < 1454730107 48594 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, mess wrt its talkpage < 1454730114 206870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nightmare is mostly kept off the article itself < 1454730117 331520 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1454730120 564315 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if it's ended up as PC1 yet
< 1454730125 996497 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Am I that pedantic? < 1454730129 348371 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's PC1 < 1454730154 570185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a newish protection level, it means that anyone can edit it but changes by anonymous users have to be reviewed before they go live < 1454730163 277065 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i it takes one to simulate one < 1454730180 730397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are quite a lot of reviewers, it's a relatively easy user rank to get < 1454730187 642606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly it's intended to stop libel creeping into articles about people < 1454730204 583180 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, you're that cheeky hth < 1454730220 386623 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't think cheeky is quite the right word but cannot remember what is
< 1454730228 411713 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, looks like it was PC1 from feb 2014 to oct 2015 but the furore died down enough to be able to turn it off < 1454730301 195555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the existence of PC1 is no doubt going to confuse people further about how Wikipedia works < 1454730308 348024 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many people assume all pages work like that < 1454730318 67098 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1454730360 676264 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well Planet Nine is currently semi-protected, anyway < 1454730417 369423 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one paid attention to my suggestion it could be dropped when it went off the main page. but then that was about the time someone realized an academic spammer was editing it < 1454730428 283965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the FAQ on Talk:0.999... is hilarious < 1454730497 378897 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that FAQ looks rather subtly hidden... < 1454730509 541460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:0.999.../Arguments demonstrates the answer to a longstanding philosophical problem at Wikipedia: where do you place metadiscussion about a talk page, given that it doesn't have a talk page of its own? < 1454730518 925700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the answer is apparently on the page itself) < 1454730602 177604 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I am quite amused by how much of a talk page that needs. < 1454730636 175960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I was watching while that article was TFA < 1454730643 615420 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454730651 744421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the most contentious TFAs ever, for no obvious reason < 1454730740 989134 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What is? < 1454730746 565237 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be easy to predict. < 1454730747 209612 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something to do with being something that just about anyone with a minor amount of mathematical exposure can *think* they understand well enough to say something stupid, I think. < 1454730763 666370 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: 0.999... < 1454730778 338763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: the page about what happens if you have a 0, a decimal point, and an infinite number of 9s < 1454730851 38919 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like that FAQ because it doesn't get to the heart of the issue, which is definitions. < 1454730856 36042 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently, the ELK runtime- which is, I think, a RISC- has 0x2D instructions < 1454730864 438965 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two people arguing about things without ever saying what they mean isn't very useful. < 1454730893 745594 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What does TFA stand for? And the page where? < 1454730901 50485 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is of course 1 because $$\sum_{\x=1}^{\infty} 9 \over {10 ^ x} = 1$$. But, y'know. Math. < 1454730907 924312 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: Today's Featured Article, Wikipedia < 1454730925 397694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: Today's Featured Article, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:0.999... < 1454730931 694721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if you asked the typical person who disagrees that 1 = 0.999... about the limit of 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, ..., they'll grant that that's 1. < 1454730946 717338 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just don't like defining 0.999... as that limit. < 1454730955 889350 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the typical person who disagrees doesn't know what a limit is, I suspect < 1454730961 280507 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is fine, it's a matter of intuition or taste or something, not something you can really argue about. < 1454730961 455481 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The typical person who disagrees that 1 = 0.999... doesn't grok limits. < 1454730980 160992 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they'll agree that that sequence approaches 1, or whatever. < 1454731026 89874 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also a pretty basic result of what the notation means. It *is* $$\sum_{\x=1}^{\infty} 9 \over {10 ^ x}$$. < 1454731035 87348 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notation means whatever you want it to. < 1454731057 626145 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah well https://xkcd.com/169/ < 1454731091 676095 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can say one meaning makes for a more elegant system than another, and that's a reasonable argument, but it's silly to argue that one notation is more right than another. < 1454731109 166097 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: What? That's not the same thing at all. < 1454731139 435479 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :My argument for why this is what the notation means is because *that's the consensus for what it fucking means*. < 1454731143 368245 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on if you're a) Using the surreals and 2) defining 0.99999 as 1-ε, which is a stupid thing to do < 1454731168 999943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's fine. < 1454731171 156434 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because how do your write e.g. 1-2ε < 1454731186 316854 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can say "+" is multiplication, but if you just randomly say "1+9 = 9" people are going to think you're talking nonsense. < 1454731200 924402 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously, the answer is 0.999...8, but that's stupid because you can't generalize it to all surreal numbers < 1454731201 800336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's nextafter(-1.) in an implementation where floats are infinitely accurate? < 1454731211 791914 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but if I say 1+9 = 9, and you say 1+9=10, the way to resolve that disagreement is to figure out what we mean. < 1454731234 276217 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not to say that I "don't grok addition". < 1454731246 724681 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, the people who say 0.999... != 1 don't know what they think 0.999... means. < 1454731278 367230 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Unless they know about the Surreal Numbers < 1454731286 292815 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the notations that you're used to, and axioms that you're used to, have been invented and agreed on because some people found them useful or aesthetically pleasing. < 1454731306 318911 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe someone doesn't like some consequence of the axiom of choice, so they decide not to use that axiom. < 1454731318 972090 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes their system nonstandard, but it doesn't make them wrong. < 1454731347 802432 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: DAMN YOU, BANACH-TARSKI < 1454731348 515321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the axiom of choice really brings home to me just how much we don't know about infinity < 1454731364 365210 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom of choice is use in system that uses that axiom, although in general I do not really like axiom of choice < 1454731365 491910 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, you're talking about things that could make sense for someone using nonstandard mathematics. The issue is, *0.999... != 1 is almost always a statement out of mathematical ignorance, not a consequence of different axiom choice*. < 1454731370 771470 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to see something about a world where mathematics applies to the real world < 1454731377 918588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, with most axioms, you intuitively know they're true, just can't prove them < 1454731381 378106 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not just the school mathematics; the weird stuff too < 1454731399 998340 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, for example, companies started using banach-tarski to mass produce objects < 1454731413 477875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the parallel postulate is one where that isn't the case, but it's also possible to understand a universe where it isn't true < 1454731430 490771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in fact the fact that it does seem to apply to our universe was only relatively recently established and was far from certan < 1454731432 967990 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*certain < 1454731444 74235 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no < 1454731449 684307 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, the axiom of choice, both assuming it's false and assuming it's true lead to absurdities < 1454731465 419732 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not contradictions, just situations that intuitively make no sense) < 1454731473 533555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly I last saw this years ago and no longer can remember the examples < 1454731539 849731 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I think a typical disagreement with that equality is "0.999... is very close to 1, but not equal to 1". That suggests that people don't believe in the infinite sum but only in a finite prefix of it, which is probably reasonable in some sort of finitism that you could work out, even if they can't articulate it. < 1454731598 794895 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy to show that 0.9... = 1 < 1454731603 183809 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I don't want to be in the position of defending 0.999... /= 1, because that's silly. I'm just suggesting to be more charitable by default. < 1454731612 485807 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Open python and type in (1/9)*9 < 1454731618 139268 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it is equal to 1 < 1454731620 879131 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, duh < 1454731622 45676 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1454731637 155046 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ZF!C means you have a vector space without a basis, apparently. < 1454731643 891284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's got to be language+runtime combinations where that doesn't work < 1454731669 946404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: that's within my personal tolerance of weirdness, assuming that infinities are involved < 1454731671 224809 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'print (1/9)*9' | python < 1454731672 605403 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1454731680 376918 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm in #esoteric, my tolerance of weirdness is pretty high < 1454731730 723846 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Intuitionistically the axiom of choice doesn't even need to be an axiom, it's just true. < 1454731732 386160 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But does 0.000... = 0? < 1454731748 111620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: assuming that's not a joke, yes < 1454731760 169871 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the law of excluded middle is not true. < 1454731769 635364 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: However, pierce's law is < 1454731772 819882 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Problem, formal logic? < 1454731774 49319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people who think that 1-0.999... is nonzero think that it's equal to 0.000...1 < 1454731778 207859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that means < 1454731792 795800 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ε, probably < 1454731794 413269 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never heard that. < 1454731806 846056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm, how does including the middle let you prove the axiom of choice? < 1454731825 425974 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't. < 1454731856 855628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought as much < 1454731863 295478 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that "exists" and "or" mean something stronger in that logic. < 1454731863 471583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably some other axiom is added to compensate? < 1454731869 165077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1454731891 98923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, the main result of intuitionistic logic that I know of is f(¬¬x)=¬¬f(x) < 1454731904 16590 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I have a physical ¬ key on my keyboard but use it so rarely I had to think for a while to figure out where it was < 1454731917 746698 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually not quite sure why it works. No axiom is added to compensate. < 1454731920 172299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only on the UK keyboard layout so that we can use a UK keyboard to type both ASCII and EBCDIC (¬ is in EBCDIC) < 1454731955 186662 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The UK layout has AltGr, right? < 1454731956 93632 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: WTH is ¬ EBCDIC!? < 1454731961 78082 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in < 1454731968 474883 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I type ¬ with AltGr-\ < 1454731975 864424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, we have an altgr < 1454731980 626199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not used for much by default < 1454731987 718945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the second | and € < 1454731989 161405 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been considering engineering a Python program that lets me type weird characters < 1454731999 98862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, does EBCDIC also have ¦? < 1454732004 656693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have no idea why we have two | keys (they produce different characters on many OSes but not on Linux so I can't demonstrate) < 1454732021 728880 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :¦ and |? < 1454732030 265014 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Broken and solid vertical bar. < 1454732034 266320 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: EBCDIC just makes different choices as to which characters are important than ASCII does < 1454732047 868703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's a common set of characters to use for the keys, but not the only one I've seen < 1454732054 233838 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It doesn't seem like EBCDIC would even have room for other characters < 1454732062 614364 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 6 bit IIRC, and 2**6 = 64 < 1454732067 245533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: note that the backslash was originally invented so that you could type \/ and /\, so ¬ works fine < 1454732069 464282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also EBCDIC is 8 bit < 1454732074 66245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with many of them unused < 1454732079 774290 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1454732083 543265 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It is? < 1454732084 882341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you liked power-of-2-bit bytes? :-P < 1454732085 342602 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird < 1454732098 803798 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, which is why I didn't like EBCDIC < 1454732109 177369 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I thinking of another encoding that does 6 bits? < 1454732156 774135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's Baudot but it's five bits (with shift codes, thus it has 64 characters) < 1454732202 93935 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, ¬ is *not* one of the characters in EBCDIC with an invariant location. < 1454732216 439021 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because of *course* EBCDIC has code pages) < 1454732236 491662 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1454732247 238050 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And ¬ is encoded in different locations in different ones. < 1454732253 953580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia's example EBCDIC has a ±, it seems, and a soft hyphen < 1454732262 752054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure all of them did < 1454732279 173497 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/did/do/ < 1454732289 760616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :few people use EBCDIC nowadays, I hope at least < 1454732295 428422 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monsterous though it might be, it's still around. < 1454732311 367313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can use it because we use technologies that lost the standards wars for fun sometimes < 1454732349 255488 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many banks still have significant use of mainframes in day-to-day operations. < 1454732450 316942 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty much entirely incompatible with sane notions of operation, but that doesn't stop anyone. < 1454732503 207567 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :And (of course) UTF-EBCDIC sees basically zero use. Just non-Unicode legacy charsets. < 1454732588 182722 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess what I had "fun" doing at my last job? < 1454732652 696527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :were you using Perl? It actually has an official EBCDIC version, for some reason < 1454732655 515905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know how maintained it is < 1454732692 983316 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. We were also not using EBCDIC ourselves, we were talking to a system that *did*. < 1454732764 62561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems to be less bad than most other combinations < 1454732776 516703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :figure out what codepage it's using then just re-encode at the communications boundary < 1454732785 580522 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(potential issue: if it's inconsistent codepage-wise) < 1454732801 616796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(other potential issue: if you're mixing text and binary and don't know which is which) < 1454732808 659574 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was also not just EBCDIC text, but COBOL-defined data structures that *included* EBCDIC text. < 1454732919 187017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, that's harder < 1454732991 464295 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Long story short, I've written a COBOL parser. < 1454733059 424337 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, finally you did < 1454733069 989938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: for the data structure or the language itself? < 1454733075 33765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually COBOL and SQL remind me a lot of each other < 1454733119 952205 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: For the language's description of data structures. < 1454733236 162703 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which then fed into an arbitrary-data-structure walker. < 1454733442 236895 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you ever forget you're browsing Wikipedia instead of esolangs.org and click "Random Page" expecting to see something even remotely interesting? < 1454733696 901159 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries and hits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Thebes_(292%E2%80%93291_BC)
< 1454733721 530634 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :better than average, me thinks < 1454733750 560410 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1454733760 443735 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :second try: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Telegram < 1454733837 75573 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mello-Kings < 1454733864 198582 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is unusually good, have they changed random article since last i tried < 1454733891 473134 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders why people in #esoteric, of all channels, have messed up the meaning of "random"
< 1454733922 389317 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elronnd: wat, it's what the wp link says < 1454733960 122012 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to wikipedia.org
< 1454733983 353642 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the wp link say < 1454733999 938177 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Andreas_Tammann < 1454734022 645340 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Random article" < 1454734022 820383 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elronnd: "Random article" < 1454734023 618507 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know < 1454734041 661566 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :said wp link doesn't seem to say "improved" or "changed" or anything like that < 1454734060 808664 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget, is a space %20 or %2F < 1454734068 486951 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :%20 < 1454734079 946761 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VF-194_(1955-8) < 1454734149 277818 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoeic_thought < 1454734157 683818 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm trying to remember what 2F is < 1454734161 801731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!unicode U+002F < 1454734169 576824 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode U+002F < 1454734170 991240 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/ < 1454734174 505973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1454734174 768320 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY CAN'T I GET A REALLY SHITTY ARTICLE < 1454734190 369707 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Select random Wikipedia article and then try to make a computer game about that subject < 1454734191 656799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: random article patrol is actually a thing < 1454734200 16186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want bad articles, you probably want to look in special:Newpages < 1454734209 542215 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"patrol"? < 1454734223 148179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: basically, a systematic way to improve the encyclopedia < 1454734231 660560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in random article patrol you generate random articles then try to improve the < 1454734243 652063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that some articles have higher probability in random article than others; those are more likely to be improved < 1454734254 901510 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i recall just a few years ago, and i tended to hit stubs or boring lists everywhere < 1454734279 458777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the way it works is that each article is associated with a random real number between 0 and 1, and random article generates another random number in that range and then looks for the next-highest number on an article) < 1454734285 631023 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, they've improved the randomness, check < 1454734300 904406 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: *cough* surely not a real. < 1454734319 891022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: well it's not stored infinitely accurately < 1454734323 757234 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I mean, it would be a random number that would fit in the reals, but surely they're not generating reals. :) < 1454734323 933974 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's more of a float < 1454734335 527931 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's possible it's fixedpoint instead < 1454734342 430544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a type that's meant to act like a real, at least < 1454734360 933717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders about the concept of random computable reals
< 1454734373 317857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you could do it via generating digits lazily < 1454734395 453328 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guaranteeing uniformity would be trickier though. < 1454734418 550926 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or would it? < 1454734421 136617 :pikhq_!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1454734551 568857 :deltab!~deltab@cpc1-smal2-0-0-cust155.19-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: using linux? chances are high that you can press ctrl+shift+u, then type hex to enter a character by code; e.g. ctrl+shift+U, 2, f, space < 1454734566 984529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :deltab: for me that works in some programs but not others < 1454734573 529006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my IRC client is one where it doesn't < 1454734592 151837 :deltab!~deltab@cpc1-smal2-0-0-cust155.19-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, depends on the toolkit used < 1454734596 596683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the really weird thing is that sometimes it does show the underlined u, but then cancels out of it as soon as I press a digit < 1454734624 35206 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally a list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McAdam_(surname) < 1454734630 799710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where I don't know what the trigger behind the "sometimes" is, but I can often change whether it works or not by pressing alt-tab a few times (ending back up at the same program) < 1454734636 870394 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :My IRC client works with ctrl+shift+U < 1454734683 894120 :deltab!~deltab@cpc1-smal2-0-0-cust155.19-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: huh, I've not seen that < 1454734707 268516 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the compose key is similar, it will or won't work for no obvious reason but pressing alt-tab a few times fixes it < 1454734713 276818 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, often fixes it < 1454734835 366028 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it actually does work, when it's working < 1454734840 272110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than showing an underlined u that doesnt do anything < 1454735475 875283 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC client I am using cannot send non-ASCII character at all, although you can receive messages containing non-ASCII characters < 1454735502 864606 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elronnd: I love crl+shift+U :) < 1454735516 976894 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the keyboard is read by xterm < 1454735552 847657 :deltab!~deltab@cpc1-smal2-0-0-cust155.19-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the two vertical bars: it seems that in the early days of ASCII (1967), some people wanted ! to instead display as | in mathematical contexts, while others wanted a separate character code for |, and the compromise was that a broken bar would be added so that it wouldn't be confused with the !-vertical-bar < 1454735597 609069 :deltab!~deltab@cpc1-smal2-0-0-cust155.19-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence the broken bar symbol on keyboards < 1454735683 84628 :deltab!~deltab@cpc1-smal2-0-0-cust155.19-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :later (1977) the separate vertical bar was made solid, but the broken form remained in keyboard standards < 1454735750 602801 :deltab!~deltab@cpc1-smal2-0-0-cust155.19-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and somehow later got itself encoded as its own character in ISO 8859 < 1454735870 71259 :deltab!~deltab@cpc1-smal2-0-0-cust155.19-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.siao2.com/2006/02/24/538496.aspx#comment-50354 < 1454735904 622563 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why isn't "!yield*" allowed in JavaScript? At least Node.js seem to disallow it < 1454735979 967187 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://peetm.com/blog/?p=55 < 1454736546 579915 :EgoBot!dlopen@libdl.so QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1454736567 7885 :EgoBot!dlopen@libdl.so JOIN :#esoteric < 1454736782 542007 :deltab!~deltab@cpc1-smal2-0-0-cust155.19-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: if I'm reading the spec right, it's because ! wants a UnaryExpression, and a YieldExpression isn't one < 1454736887 380475 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :deltab: OK, although I am not sure why it has to be that way. I got it to work by put parentheses but I think it ought to work even without it? < 1454737123 860108 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-skkiqhqpqjsxyqoc QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1454738687 350233 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: How could `yield` /possibly/ be an acceptable argument to `!`? How? < 1454740372 980296 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone should make an esolang with zeroth-class data < 1454740973 770308 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means what? < 1454741144 737522 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't use the data, the data uses you hth < 1454742984 823639 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1454744228 989116 :gniourf!~gniourf@pdm-l03.insa-lyon.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1454744357 218869 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Gravity? < 1454744843 709785 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan you don't use the data, the data uses you hth <- Pretty sure that's been suggested on the "Ideas" page under Soviet Russia htmh < 1454744843 926552 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1454746627 750835 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454746834 726083 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Befunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46362&oldid=46156 5* 0364.222.227.34 5* (+215) 10/* Befunge-98 and beyond */ < 1454746880 743347 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1454747076 402467 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1454747955 602066 :bender|!benderpc@2404:e800:e61a:41d:f90b:ac04:9b43:1dda JOIN :#esoteric < 1454751200 838322 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1454751478 282515 :Reece!~Gremlin@host-92-13-209-151.as43234.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1454751714 957474 :gniourf!~gniourf@pdm-l03.insa-lyon.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1454753440 936260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1454753846 83720 :asie!~asie@asie.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1454754535 979433 :bender|!benderpc@2404:e800:e61a:41d:f90b:ac04:9b43:1dda QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1454755636 877913 :heroux!~heroux@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-anpbkitdfvuqdftf JOIN :#esoteric < 1454756563 872237 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-108-222.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1454757002 705195 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1454757472 485647 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454757656 851301 :heroux!~heroux@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-anpbkitdfvuqdftf QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1454757728 454223 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1454758104 740947 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1454758115 13625 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454758271 828847 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :my bf interpreter has been running a program that prints 99 bottles of beer < 1454758276 880183 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 9 hours < 1454758310 57394 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the output is printed at the end so i wasn't even sure if it was still working or what < 1454758320 204770 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :fired up gdb, attached that process < 1454758334 791515 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :56 Bottles of beer on the wall <- it's here < 1454758340 233780 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :after 9 hours < 1454758450 811992 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :was this interpreter written in malbolge? < 1454758474 244416 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's written in sed < 1454758485 507044 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god, worse! < 1454758773 175742 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :wish there was a way to run grep on a certain offset in /proc/pid/mem < 1454758790 672723 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1454758867 337956 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :something something dd|grep < 1454758975 332905 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can get the start offset of the heap < 1454758979 51172 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :that won't change < 1454758984 229368 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure where to stop though < 1454759348 487842 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read from /proc/pid/maps first? < 1454759399 695723 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` grep '\[heap\]' /proc/self/maps < 1454759400 603314 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0062b000-0064d000 rwxp 00000000 00:00 0 [heap] < 1454759408 125444 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but that changes too fast < 1454759434 311643 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, depending on your process. < 1454759452 368052 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this particular process it changes too fast < 1454759465 768732 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fastly?) < 1454759469 153018 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :(quickly?) < 1454759473 935793 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can send a SIGSTOP to it, do your stuffs, and send a SIGCONT. < 1454759476 847165 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :it changes too often < 1454759479 534605 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1454759502 86269 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking about ptracing it but stopping it seems easier < 1454759515 376562 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1454759522 244148 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1454759566 61380 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want easy (instead of DIY), you could always attach gdb and use its "find" command to search for things. < 1454759569 655190 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I don't think it does regexps. < 1454759601 877024 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a program that's not even compiled with debugging symbols :\ < 1454759611 734683 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have to be, for that. < 1454759614 558834 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok < 1454760061 469399 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454760408 157688 :madyach!~madyach@bzq-79-177-151-177.red.bezeqint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454762469 342822 :zadock!~outsider@81.180.208.252 JOIN :#esoteric < 1454762954 158500 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454763144 151592 :zadock!~outsider@81.180.208.252 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1454763269 22332 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1454763434 568273 :madyach!~madyach@bzq-79-177-151-177.red.bezeqint.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1454763811 971711 :anybody_!~Anybody@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1454763859 471479 :anybody_!~Anybody@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Client Quit < 1454763915 53970 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1454764494 371584 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@194.108.5.201 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1454764507 644772 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-200-10.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1454765998 720593 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1454766922 304736 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454768941 847230 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454769017 768551 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@194.108.5.201 JOIN :#esoteric < 1454769178 16244 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1454769344 608603 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454769791 688255 :LexiciScriptor!~LexiciScr@net-37-117-69-8.cust.vodafonedsl.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1454774116 390489 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1454774259 471254 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454774724 530840 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1454774983 976233 :atslash!~atslash@5.9.107.231 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1454774989 798432 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454775173 65664 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1454775728 615705 :Treio!~Treio@87.244.233.250 JOIN :#esoteric < 1454775973 550797 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454776175 574940 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1454776293 12171 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable173.181-178-173.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1454776296 857764 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable173.181-178-173.mc.videotron.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar CYQB < 1454776297 203193 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :CYQB 061600Z 23009KT 30SM FEW045 BKN130 M06/M12 A3016 RMK SC2AC5 SLP222 < 1454776462 701635 :p34k!~p34k@nat-wh-wz4-12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1454777071 327033 :Reece`!~Gremlin@host-92-13-209-151.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454778162 754822 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable173.181-178-173.mc.videotron.ca QUIT :Quit: LAMINAR CHICKEN < 1454778173 159072 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar CYYZ < 1454778173 453240 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :CYYZ 061600Z 28012G17KT 15SM SCT025 BKN035 01/M05 A3020 RMK CU3SC4 SLP235 < 1454778647 912590 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar EGLL < 1454778648 239628 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :EGLL 061650Z AUTO 20025G40KT 9999 -RA BKN029 BKN045 12/06 Q0991 TEMPO RA < 1454778654 140773 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit windy today. < 1454779758 503745 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1454780054 745682 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1454780088 807491 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :trout < 1454780114 544084 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :function < 1454780120 572346 :function!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :constant < 1454780206 462301 :constant!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1454780230 833254 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1454780367 976493 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1454780606 808709 :hydraz!matheus@unaffiliated/demhydraz QUIT :Quit: Bai. < 1454780615 581992 :hydraz!matheus@heddw.ch JOIN :#esoteric < 1454780615 724331 :hydraz!matheus@heddw.ch QUIT :Changing host < 1454780615 724378 :hydraz!matheus@unaffiliated/demhydraz JOIN :#esoteric < 1454780639 720707 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1454780711 703223 :Reece`!~Gremlin@host-92-13-209-151.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1454780729 503828 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1454780738 871589 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454780987 833650 :Reece`!~Gremlin@host-92-13-209-151.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454781572 266629 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46364&oldid=46091 5* 03YoYoYonnY 5* (+0) 10/* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ < 1454781617 941904 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1454781966 618985 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454783929 978121 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable173.181-178-173.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1454786950 304808 :FiredBall-0x71!~Admin@36.76.50.206 JOIN :#esoteric < 1454786957 73206 :FiredBall-0x71!~Admin@36.76.50.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.pearltrees.com/pvpeliter/laptop-disini-bought-governor/id15409744#item167481741, , xWindow 10 ENTERPRISE , FREE CLASSIFIED OS FROM THE MOST HIGH HAS BEEN RELEASED , CLICK ON THE LINK THAT POP UP AND CLICK DOWNLOAD ... . DON'T FORGET TO JOIN ##Astara ... . < 1454786996 592224 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can someone kick that guy < 1454787076 843775 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :real fast nora < 1454787119 770569 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's just spam them bak < 1454787167 84001 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice idea < 1454787168 496987 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I write a bot to PM them constantly? < 1454787238 987935 :FiredBall-0x71!~Admin@36.76.50.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION come join ##astara prince
< 1454787256 853744 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FiredBall-0x71: how about fuck you < 1454787272 498201 :FiredBall-0x71!~Admin@36.76.50.206 PART :#esoteric < 1454787380 552884 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu QUIT :Quit: Changing server < 1454787435 677971 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder how much spammers make per hour < 1454787742 63465 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm Best font cool terminal monospace hacker haxxor typeface neoletters matrix neo letters. I couldn't believe how cool this font look on my terminal with irssi nano bash c c++ perl python brainfuck malbolge intercal befunge. it the best font ever < 1454787775 293642 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a good impersonation? < 1454787806 819582 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1454787855 985588 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x9 out of 0xA 1337h4xx0rz prefer it! < 1454787960 133367 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have both ß in there? < 1454787964 418068 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1454787981 458738 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1454788021 859230 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1454788032 201155 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it the best font ever with support english deutsch espanol italiano greek cyrillic katakana hiragana etc math arrows even runic. best font for programming irc dwarf fortress nethack and more. < 1454788047 317349 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice font < 1454788052 382685 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is should install it, but i'm too lazy < 1454788060 364973 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :same < 1454788253 827676 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh what spam where. < 1454788258 482852 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, too late to do anything. < 1454788266 388056 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was spamming in #vim too < 1454788305 284617 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :##c and #perl as well. < 1454788305 949979 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you do in a vim channel? < 1454788316 292231 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454788317 677357 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Edit files? < 1454788323 478888 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: talk aboutu vim? < 1454788330 127984 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1454788332 111426 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: what do you do in a #debian channel < 1454788352 284119 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not being there < 1454788365 282365 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am almost exclusively in offtopic channels < 1454788392 747691 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? spam < 1454788404 853886 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/ < 1454788413 970867 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would use vim if it had hints at the bottom like nano does < 1454788432 591430 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: you use nano < 1454788438 125656 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1454788438 975330 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hints for what? < 1454788462 736973 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: run nano and you'll see what \oren\ means < 1454788470 683477 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know nano < 1454788480 287230 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what would you hint in vim? < 1454788483 500270 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::wq? < 1454788487 387824 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1454788487 840375 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds silly < 1454788504 381236 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know :, you know wq < 1454788534 290600 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yah I know ed, but most people don't < 1454788544 418224 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason nano has hints is because it needs those < 1454788565 308513 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can never remember the commands that aren't : commands < 1454788581 878463 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should play more nethack < 1454788614 589874 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1175999594.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when I'm dropped into vim by e.g. svn, I have to just go into : and use it like ed. < 1454788665 993099 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :playing nethack helped me a lot getting my head around this abbreviation stuff that's going on < 1454788668 434287 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1454788742 833707 :AlexR42!~textual@94.41.140.91 JOIN :#esoteric < 1454788905 417488 :madyach!~madyach@bzq-79-177-151-177.red.bezeqint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454788934 530091 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454789266 423200 :madyach!~madyach@bzq-79-177-151-177.red.bezeqint.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1454789550 910016 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do people keep making thread libraries where if an uncaught exception is raised in a thread, it only terminates that thread rather than aborting the whole process? < 1454789593 805406 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just dangerous. leads to errors getting unnoticed, while the user wonders why the program doesn't react. < 1454789976 133493 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use more erlang < 1454791396 131468 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they terminate the thread and then don't notify you that they did? < 1454791553 39687 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: they notify you when you join the thread < 1454791560 958219 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can only wait for one thread to join < 1454791572 925522 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you would need an extra thread for each thread if you wanted to catch it immediately < 1454791588 760879 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even then it would be a waste, because the FUCKING EXCEPTION CODE CAN JUST CALL abort() INSTEAD! < 1454791785 31204 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And sadly, this isn't really only the responsibility of the thread library. It's more handled by the exception library. < 1454791811 321317 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, with these libraries, suppose you've got two different threads, each of which is going to produce some value. You want to wait until one thread or the other produces the value and get the value from whichever thread it happened to be. < 1454791814 707393 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to do that? < 1454791816 879181 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's a whole language design issue that you can't just change easily. < 1454791837 86303 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: sure, you use some higher level structures, like futures or condition variables for that < 1454791853 988431 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: the raw thread thing itself doesn't want to do that, because it's lower level < 1454791869 203222 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's lots of high level abstractions you can use, or write one with low level condition variables if you want < 1454791877 895736 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is for the case of unexpected errors < 1454791907 690583 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1454791935 322520 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reasonable languages like the C++ standard library (threads and exceptions) don't do this. < 1454791949 857379 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What library are you using, exactly? < 1454791985 518201 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Ruby does this by default, and currently I'm trying to read up a bit about rust, and apparently its exceptions (panics) do this too. < 1454791988 982967 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's crazy. < 1454792000 340818 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just makes no sense. < 1454792016 494362 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Terminating the thread instead of just calling abort() actually requires extra work for the implementation. < 1454792019 902446 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just stupid. < 1454792034 65387 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(perl Coro does this by default as well) < 1454792079 158941 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's always workarounds of course, eg. you can put a try-catch at the top level function of each thread, to catch the exception, and call abort from it, but those don't work if you're not the one starting the thread. < 1454792192 591417 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1454792716 712612 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454792962 87238 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454793208 747298 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07HALT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46365&oldid=46355 5* 0385.179.165.201 5* (+2) 10 < 1454793220 371271 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1454793486 338569 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm playing with this Gray-Scott thing: https://pmneila.github.io/jsexp/grayscott/ < 1454793492 334497 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A reaction-diffusion system. < 1454793530 456599 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm exploring the feed rate range with the death rate set to 0.061. < 1454793599 850815 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, with feed rates less than a certain amount... < 1454793702 43426 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feed rates of about 0.03 and below. < 1454793744 5226 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a rather neat behavior here. So, with these feed rates, the landscape fills with solitons. < 1454793760 386130 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a certain stable density range. Interesting stuff happens outside this range. < 1454793788 367778 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the density is too low, then solitons reproduce, increasing the density. < 1454793794 5066 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454793824 954513 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :More interesting: if the density is too high, then nearby solitons start to oscillate in tandem. These oscillations increase in magnitude until a bunch of the solitons suddenly die. < 1454793906 723739 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surviving solitons then move into the resulting empty space, perhaps even reproducing. < 1454794015 20709 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decreasing the feed rate lowers the stable density. So you can cause mass die-offs that way if you want. < 1454794293 544583 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454794325 191171 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a feed rate of 0.023, it takes a long time for the solitons to reach this stable density. < 1454794579 562895 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a feed rate of 0.022, it looks like there is no stable density. Whenever there's a die-off, the reproduction caused by this die-off causes another die-off. < 1454794769 676521 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1454794784 673733 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And with a feed rate of 0.02, it looks like a population cannot survive. That feed rate is so low that even a lone soliton oscillates and dies. < 1454794859 298684 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemme try exploring in the other direction now. < 1454795104 948674 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As the feed rate increases, solitons begin to reproduce more eagerly. < 1454795116 911324 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, the way soliton reproduction works is that a soliton elongates and then breaks in two. < 1454795155 949313 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once the feed rate increases to 0.031, the elongated soliton doesn't necessarily break in two any more; it just stays that way. A worm. < 1454795189 720203 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(All these are in the presets.) < 1454795290 145375 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When the feed rate gets to about 0.036, worms begin merging with the solitons at their tips. < 1454795440 540877 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a result, worms dominate the world. < 1454795444 505331 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solitons usually don't survive too long. < 1454795497 739550 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Because they get "eaten" by worms.) < 1454795518 394711 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At 0.039, worms can start to merge with each other and form three-way junctions. < 1454795651 941387 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At feed rate 0.05, this happens aggressively; worm tips almost totally vanish as they plunge into other worms and make these junctions. < 1454795658 438771 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hot.) < 1454795849 1405 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELK ASM now has 0x7C instructions :) < 1454795853 233968 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(124, for n00bs) < 1454795884 671266 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It got inflated because I need instructions for EVERY type- e.g. I have ADD and ADD.FLOAT and ADD.DOUBLE and ADD.UN < 1454795980 261576 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to decide whether to add JMP..FLOAT, JMP..DOUBLE, and JMP..UN, or to only have JMP, JMP.Z, and JMP.NZ, and combine those with existing condition getters < 1454796014 215371 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm leaning towards the latter, but I already have CSET (conditional set) for all the operations, so... < 1454796085 851108 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Feed rate 1 < 1454796196 997523 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll do the latter, but keep the CSET instructions (since combining them with a condition clobbers the destination no matter what, but I want it to not change the destination if the condition fails) < 1454796600 736980 :AlexR42!~textual@94.41.140.91 QUIT :Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1454796895 669960 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There doesn't seem to be much in the way of qualitative change increasing through feed rate 0.068... < 1454796953 446 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feed rate 0.069, rings formed by the worms start to contract and disappear. < 1454797212 732595 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Around 0.074, an important change happens: curves in worms start to contract, instead of looping out the way that rivers and streams do. < 1454797236 704305 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1454797267 937212 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages- < 1454797268 128101 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1] said 14h 33m 44s ago: you don't use the data, the data uses you hth <- Pretty sure that's been suggested on the "Ideas" page under Soviet Russia htmh < 1454797270 929173 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAYBE < 1454797312 15423 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It has been < 1454797324 489368 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WASN'T DENYING THAT < 1454797370 281844 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable173.181-178-173.mc.videotron.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLØRJAN. < 1454797397 389244 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOD KVELDY < 1454797422 906057 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm making a bytecode VM called ELK designed as a vastly inferior alternative to .NET < 1454797441 205562 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something we can write too many compilers for and basically have a BF that interacts with a Thue and stuff < 1454797470 120387 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-123.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could look how I designed QUACKVM for another way that VM instruction set can be defined < 1454797473 277647 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :delicious science rumors: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/02/woohoo-email-stokes-rumor-gravitational-waves-have-been-spotted < 1454797497 680282 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has 0x7F instructions so far < 1454797500 387909 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At about 0.083, little rings collapse quickly, and four-way junctions tend to split. < 1454797531 832856 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Legendary ‘mammoth steak’ turns out to be sea turtle < 1454797565 431838 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going from 0.083 to 0.084, worms tips now paradoxically retract instead of elongating. < 1454797643 85524 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The overall feeling is that the worms are now similar to lines with tension, trying to become as short as possible. < 1454797648 525083 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable173.181-178-173.mc.videotron.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should logread to understand what the fungot is going on here, but I like my mammoth steaks to remain mysterious. < 1454797648 777587 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: but everyone else is withdrawing time for their convenience before their students' :( < 1454797661 943701 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wait for Feb 11 for the truth) < 1454797688 407480 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: No, I just noticed that on the Science site (sciencemag.org, the one oerjan posted) and copied it to here < 1454797779 664677 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At feed rate 0.093, all three-way junctions suddenly become unstable and snap. All worms contract into solitons. < 1454797817 850918 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: OK, I have to ask < 1454797818 165749 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(about the waves, not the mammoth) < 1454797824 389918 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the hell are you talking about? < 1454797830 468862 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: https://pmneila.github.io/jsexp/grayscott/ < 1454797841 187118 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: aha < 1454797842 999070 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Thank you < 1454797857 897871 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At feed rate 0.098, solitons suddenly become unstable and die. < 1454798009 972086 :hppavilion[1]!~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.28 is kewl < 1454798046 697073 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1454798411 685924 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454798451 73855 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that U-Skate world is oh so slow < 1454798481 535628 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought everything would shrink to a point until i realized bends grew < 1454798521 579831 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm what's the meaning of U-Skate < 1454798671 545847 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, should you not be altering the death rate too < 1454798680 685701 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1454798693 95019 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's a specific shape... lemme look up a page about it. < 1454798705 517326 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://mrob.com/pub/comp/xmorphia/uskate-world.html < 1454798747 342237 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For what it's worth, I think that even though the uskate world looks like black stuff in a sea of orange, it's still better to think of it as orange stuff in a sea of black. < 1454798817 835248 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it's not mandatory. < 1454798842 760867 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but which death rate are you testing on < 1454798855 703720 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1454798925 970533 :p34k!~p34k@nat-wh-wz4-12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de QUIT : < 1454799216 733198 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.061. < 1454799242 694842 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454799583 671797 :jaboja!~jaboja@ehe223.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454799930 833948 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454800478 545467 :LexiciScriptor!~LexiciScr@net-37-117-69-8.cust.vodafonedsl.it QUIT :Quit: LexiciScriptor < 1454800585 990324 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1454800913 123960 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1454800956 691412 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With feed rate 0.023 and death rate 0.062, a small number of solitons will eventually spread out and fill the screen. Increase the death rate to 0.063, and this doesn't happen any more—the solitons are no longer capable of reproducing. < 1454801040 670328 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1454801070 512036 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Increase the death rate just a little more, to 0.065, and it looks like solitons can no longer survive. < 1454801531 493468 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1454801636 392668 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1454801668 681509 :heroux!~heroux@50708323.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1454801878 141978 :lynn!~lynn@unaffiliated/lynn JOIN :#esoteric < 1454803086 655767 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric