00:02:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 17m 40s ago: <hppavilion[1]> We should establish the official #esoteric stack <-- i think xkcd did that the other day.
00:02:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 12m 7s ago: <hppavilion[1]> mezkhalin: Keyboard Inaccessible <-- itym "AFK" hth
00:03:29 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, it didn't. xkcd just create /a/ stack. We should make a /true/ #esoteric stack
00:03:37 <int-e> And the AlphaGo authors estimated their program to have about 3140 Elo...
00:03:43 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Also, I wasn't AFK, it was just inaccessible
00:04:15 <int-e> (but they used the 10 games against Fan Hui for anchoring the scale, so there's quite a big margin for error, I think)
00:05:16 <hppavilion[1]> Another project it'd be cool for #esoteric to do would be to take REALLY old languages and revise them into modern languages ;)
00:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> But something I REALLY think would be cool is if somebody took the original Python source code- or made a language similar to Python- and modified it to the point where it was suitable for OS development by running an interpreter on bare metal
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00:09:41 <oerjan> darn now i feel old we used modula-2 at my second programming course in university
00:10:01 <oerjan> (this was 1991 or thereabouts.)
00:10:23 <int-e> It was modern, compared to Pascal!
00:10:37 <oerjan> int-e: which we used in the _first_ course tdnh
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00:11:53 <int-e> Hmm, that's not really Pascal... it had its own module (well, unit) system.
00:12:06 <oerjan> i don't think we used the fancy parts of it much.
00:14:42 <int-e> I don't think Modula added much over Turbo Pascal, feature wise; but it had a noticably different syntax.
00:15:01 <Sgeo> I accidentally voting opposite on a marketing survey
00:15:42 <int-e> you're accidently taking a marketing survey?
00:15:56 <Sgeo> That block content etc
00:16:04 <oerjan> i think i've forgotten almost all the modula syntax
00:16:56 <oerjan> pascal stuck better as i also saw it in other contexts
00:17:16 <oerjan> both before and after the course
00:17:41 <int-e> Oh, it looks like Modula has interfaces (for modules), which Turbo Pascal didn't.
00:20:22 <fizzie> We had a "basics of imperative programming" course taught in C but by a former Pascal person.
00:20:45 <fizzie> They said you declare a floating point variable 'x' in C with the declaration "x real;"
00:20:59 <int-e> oh joe (or joy?)... #define begin {
00:21:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i fail to recall where you could have gained the knowledge that i ever learned modula-2, in order to plan from it.
00:22:06 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It wasn't targetted at you specifically, just at anyone who'd learned it.
00:22:25 <oerjan> i was just a nocent bystander, got it
00:24:34 <oerjan> nocent is a perfectly cromulent word hth
00:24:44 <oerjan> (although i only checked it after using it)
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00:25:58 <tswett> I think you *can* run Python by running an interpreter on bare metal. It's just, I don't know if anyone has ever actually created such an interpreter.
00:27:16 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What I'm really getting at is that someone should develop a language targeted SPECIFICALLY at OS developmen
00:27:29 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: that's... not quite but kind of what Rust is.
00:27:36 <tswett> I mean, it's targeted at *system* development.
00:27:43 <tswett> And lots of people have done OS development in it.
00:28:06 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Would there happen to be a tutorial for using Rust for that I can use after I learn Rust?
00:28:11 <tswett> Granted, my OS doesn't really do anything. It dynamically allocates memory, and uses it to print "Hello, world!" backwards.
00:28:39 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: And osdev.org doesn't have a Rust tutorial, afaict
00:28:49 <HackEgo> thausiblee/A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action.
00:29:12 <tswett> There isn't really any such thing as an OS development tutorial. OS development requires quite a bit of knowledge.
00:30:01 <tswett> http://wiki.osdev.org/Rust_Bare_Bones
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00:30:25 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Rust Bare Bones doesn't have anything in it
00:30:43 <tswett> The first link is very useful: https://github.com/thepowersgang/rust-barebones-kernel
00:31:57 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: by the way, do you know how to implement linked lists in C?
00:32:33 <zgrep> tswett: Isn't it just a structure of data and a pointer to the next thing?
00:32:39 <tswett> In any case... have fun.
00:33:48 <int-e> linked lists are so much fun to debug...
00:34:05 <int-e> but kinda boring when they work
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00:36:20 <Sgeo> I should read Too Many Lists
00:36:32 <Sgeo> And work on releasing my minilibrary for Rust
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00:38:32 <tswett> That reminds me... I was working on implementing everything in Coq.
00:41:29 <zgrep> How was it goingL?
00:41:40 <tswett> Well, I haven't gotten very far yet.
00:41:47 <tswett> You could say that I'm 0% finished at the moment.
00:42:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46343&oldid=45922 * Erinius * (+14)
00:42:43 <tswett> Anyway, I've defined Category, the type of categories.
00:43:03 <tswett> Next, I'm going to... I'm gonna define Monoid, the type of monoids.
00:49:24 <zgrep> Makes me wish I knew things by osmosis.
00:50:39 <tswett> There, I've done that too.
00:50:48 <tswett> This brings me to 0% complete.
00:51:37 <tswett> Next... heck, I feel like defining all sorts of weird things today. I'm going to define a natural number algebra!
00:52:32 <tswett> Record NaturalNumberAlgebra := { nnalg_element_type : Type; nnalg_zero : nnalg_element_type; nnalg_successor : nnalg_element_type -> nnalg_element_type }.
00:52:36 <tswett> It's a pretty simple concept.
01:05:10 <tswett> Suddenly I feel like giving up on this and working on my English–Spanish blend instead.
01:05:35 <tswett> Tentatively called SN50.
01:06:13 <tswett> I don't really have any SN50 words created yet. But it's likely that the word for a certain type of animal will be something pretty close to "wolbo".
01:06:59 <tswett> I'm not just randomly mashing together the words "wolf" and "lobo". The "lf" of "wolf" and the "lob" of "lobo" actually have the same etymological origin.
01:07:37 <tswett> So, I'm mashing them together in an etymologically sound fashion!
01:14:03 <ais523> I had an idea recently that sounds like the sort of thing #esoteric would be interested in
01:14:06 <ais523> homeomorphic compression
01:14:14 <ais523> I have no idea how to implement it, but it seems like an interesting concept
01:14:24 <ais523> (the idea is that you can operate on compressed data without decompressing it)
01:14:45 <ais523> the aim would be to further develop this into allowing compressed RAM
01:14:58 <ais523> (thus you could "download more RAM" via downloading a better compressor)
01:20:00 -!- mad has joined.
01:20:59 <mad> playing around with cpu instruction set design
01:21:21 <mad> I'm ending up with some pretty insane design
01:23:43 <mad> instead of going
01:23:58 <mad> add r8, r4, r5 (add r4 to r5 and store in r8)
01:24:03 <mad> I'm ending up with
01:24:50 <mad> rename r8*, ld r4, add r5, st r8*
01:27:37 <mad> kindof a 6502 on crack where instead of running instructions directly, you rename target registers, then start small threads that compute the results
01:31:46 <mad> the idea being that using a virtual accumulator reduces the number of real registers you have to retire/write
01:32:54 <mad> and that it gives a good idea of what can be parallelized (load accumulator = can start a second execution thread here that can run before the previous instructions are done)
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01:35:06 <oerjan> <tswett> So, I'm mashing them together in an etymologically sound fashion! <-- technically, that would require making up a consistent set of sound changes from the common ancestor in proto-indoeuropean hth
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01:37:18 <ais523> mad: have you seen the Itanium?
01:38:09 <mad> I'm not aware of the small details, only that it was a failure ;)
01:38:37 <ais523> the details are amazing
01:38:47 <ais523> (which probably explains why it was a failure)
01:39:06 <mad> or more exactly, that it performed well at floating point, but considering its market that doesn't seem to have helped much
01:39:30 <mad> I'm aware that it has 3 instruction bundles
01:39:58 <coppro> it did get us a pretty solid C++ abi
01:39:59 <mad> with some strange fields to tell which instructions can run concurrently in contiguous bundles
01:41:17 <mad> and that it has weird stuff like modulo registers
01:41:32 <mad> and speculative loads
01:41:54 <mad> and the whole predicate bit thing where it basically has a whole lot of different flags registers
01:42:39 <mad> I think the failure is more due to just not performing well
01:43:25 <mad> one guy says that it can't perform an address calculation in memory loads/stores and that eats up registers like crazy and is pretty bad overall
01:45:12 <mad> and also that what was left of alpha ended up as a team at intel and they tried to make an out of order version of itanium and just couldn't do it
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01:49:22 <mad> My guess on this stuff is that it's often best to have a cpu architecture that performs well on a crazy mix of loads and stores and jumps, and that fast arithmetic is a comparatively lesser problem if your architecture is clean enough
01:50:07 <mad> itanium clearly doesn't fit here
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01:56:42 <mad> and that x86 has a couple of features that bizzarely seem to help despite their complexity
02:00:17 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
02:12:04 <oerjan> what, did wikipedia go down
02:12:43 <oerjan> hmph google doesn't work either, guess it's me then
02:14:39 <oerjan> i hope i won't just lose irc as well if i toggle the router...
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02:15:57 <pikhq_> Can confirm, Google is not currrently on fire.
02:16:25 <oerjan> i just did a quick toggling in windows, seems to have fixed it.
02:17:25 <tswett> Latin seems way closer to PIE than Old English is.
02:17:34 <tswett> Which makes sense, since Latin was spoken sooner.
02:17:39 <oerjan> pikhq_: well that's just _your_ site, i hear google has several
02:18:04 <pikhq_> oerjan: A notable outage would probably involve my inbox going wild too...
02:18:06 <shachaf> Google is usually at least a little bit on fire in my experience.
02:18:23 <pikhq_> shachaf: Well, relatively speaking.
02:18:33 <izabera> just use bing until this gets sorted out
02:19:09 <pikhq_> There's only so "everything fine" you can be when your reliability comes from designing around the assumption that some percentage of things are going to fail.
02:19:11 <oerjan> tswett: i dunno, i've heard modern lithuanian is notably archaic
02:20:05 <shachaf> Past a certain point "up" or "down" is an analog value, not digital.
02:21:00 <pikhq_> There *was* a major outage of damn near everything earlier today for a couple minutes, though, so that was fun.
02:23:19 <shachaf> pikhq_: Remind me, do you work on Calendar?
02:23:48 <pikhq_> shachaf: No, but I do work *next* to them.
02:24:04 <shachaf> I heard some rumours about Calendar the other day.
02:24:43 <pikhq_> I can neither confirm nor deny there being rumor-worthy things about them.
02:24:56 <shachaf> I mean, nothing really all that secret.
02:26:05 <shachaf> What was it you worked on again?
02:28:07 <tswett> oerjan: yeah, but that doesn't make sense.
02:29:20 <shachaf> pikhq_: Is that the same as ----er?
02:29:37 <pikhq_> The more general public name for it.
02:29:59 <shachaf> I guess the internal name isn't secret anyway.
02:30:08 <shachaf> But I'm pleased with the redaction.
02:30:17 <pikhq_> Yes, it's fairly delightful.
02:33:12 <shachaf> I played _Spider and Web_ today. Interesting game.
02:33:28 <pikhq_> We definitely do not use "fucker" as an internal code name.
02:33:36 <pikhq_> ... At least, not one I know about.
02:34:08 <izabera> you should be ashamed, google
02:34:10 <shachaf> pikhq_: I mean... There was an unfortunately named build tool...
02:34:26 <shachaf> That one was so bad that it was renamed.
02:34:43 <izabera> ah, google childslaughter, renamed to google mail
02:34:52 <pikhq_> shachaf: Don't even know what you're referring to.
02:35:18 <tswett> /topic mōdar - māter; āna - ūnus
02:35:19 <pikhq_> But I really hope you're not referring to what eventually became Bazel.
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02:36:42 <v^> so what do people think about a webserver written in brainfuck ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
02:36:55 <pikhq_> Implausible yet highly amusing.
02:36:58 <oerjan> tswett: are you sure those last two are in the same gender?
02:37:14 <izabera> that's one weird question for irc
02:37:41 <tswett> oerjan: āna and ūnus? Nope.
02:37:49 <pikhq_> shachaf: Do you know anyone in the area that can perform a cephalectomy? I think it might help my headaches.
02:38:07 <izabera> *that*'s one weird question for irc
02:38:32 <shachaf> I'm not sure what a cephalectomy is.
02:38:58 <pikhq_> Head removal, actually.
02:39:24 <tswett> Remind me what a cephalotomy would be?
02:39:29 <shachaf> I have a copy of a book titled _On Having No Head_.
02:39:41 <pikhq_> Cephalotomy would be cutting the head. Cephalectomy would be removal of the head.
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02:46:36 <izabera> https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck about that small snippet in the readme, hellbox
02:47:18 <izabera> any idea how to prove that it's not stuck in an endless loop at the end?
02:47:38 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh. How do I get grub-mkrescue working on windows?
02:47:51 <hppavilion[1]> No one say switch to linux, I'm not in the mood to do that ATM
02:47:53 <izabera> just wanted to remove that loop to generate cleaner code
02:49:09 <izabera> there's also a similar [] loop in the middle and i can't prove that it's not stuck there either
02:49:41 <oerjan> it seems again time to link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken
02:50:33 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:50:42 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:51:07 * izabera doesn't use grub so debugging it is not an option
02:51:48 <izabera> systemd-boot is great when it doesn't fuck up your efi
02:59:12 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Alternatively, I just need to be able to make a .bin I made with nasm and ld into a bootable iso
03:00:19 <zgrep> s/-boot(.+?) your.*/\1/
03:01:06 <izabera> well, one of those changes sounds superfluous
03:01:20 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: take a look at the tutorials on osdev.org
03:04:32 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: you're planning to run your OS on bare metal?
03:05:00 <tswett> I'd run it in an emulator first. Easier to get going, and there's not much point in skipping past it.
03:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What do I not need to do that I'm doing but I need not because emulators?
03:05:53 <tswett> Right, right. Lemme see.
03:06:09 <tswett> The good news: emulators aren't going to make it that much easier.
03:06:14 <zgrep> izabera: One of those changes tells the truth, the other one makes the point more succinct and more general. :P
03:06:21 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I have a bit of ASM I found on someone's blog that I'm working from
03:06:28 <tswett> Actually... I did in fact make an ISO in order to boot my OS.
03:06:34 <tswett> Having an emulator didn't make *that* part easier at all.
03:06:40 <tswett> What an emulator is good for is debugging.
03:06:49 <tswett> With an emulator: "My OS isn't working. Let me figure out why."
03:06:50 <hppavilion[1]> And the tutorial uses grub-mkrescue to make an iso out of a .bin
03:06:55 <tswett> Without an emulator: "My OS isn't working. Crap."
03:07:11 <tswett> I don't think I used grub-mkrescue. Lemme see.
03:07:42 <hppavilion[1]> To refer to the third lemma set forth in this proof
03:07:58 <tswett> I used something called "genisoimage".
03:10:04 <tswett> By the way, what format are you using for the kernel? ELF?
03:14:58 -!- Treio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:15:14 <tswett> Unfortunately I have to go to bed now.
03:30:12 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:34:33 <\oren\> you can change orbits by having the astronaut get out and push
03:36:25 <\oren\> of course, this is harder than it sounds because you can't use the jetpack while on a ledder
03:37:06 <\oren\> so you have to get out, fly to a flat surface of the orbiter, and fly against that hard
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05:10:01 <Trioxin> so brainfuck isn't actually as esoteric as one might think. In doing some AI research with the idea of searching a programming space it turns out to be quite useful
05:10:15 <Trioxin> http://www.primaryobjects.com/2013/01/27/using-artificial-intelligence-to-write-self-modifying-improving-programs/
05:11:16 <Trioxin> so my idea? do the same thing and have a program do NLP with lojban to produce brainfuck code
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05:14:05 * Elronnd downloads github link to run it locally
05:20:32 <Trioxin> Elronnd, it was clever. I wouldn't have thought of brainfuck off the top of my head to constrain the programming space (I've never used brainfuck or any esoteric).
05:24:14 <Trioxin> of course in that example the fitness function is just a string output. still impressive to me but I would aim higher.
05:25:32 <Elronnd> I...don't see how to run it
05:25:51 <Trioxin> i think the AI part was done in .net?
05:26:28 <Elronnd> Maybe AIProgrammer/Program.cs?
05:27:26 <Trioxin> one sec. a step behind you
05:28:03 <Elronnd> https://github.com/primaryobjects/AI-Programmer
05:28:44 <Trioxin> im there. oh cool it actually looks to still be maintained
05:29:17 <Elronnd> Last commit half a year ago? not so much
05:30:01 <Trioxin> well, considering it started in jan 2013
05:30:14 <Elronnd> It looks like it's written for windows though
05:31:22 <Elronnd> Running some of the programs in Results/, the encoding seems messed up or something
05:31:37 <Trioxin> eh, froze my 7zip. one sec
05:32:33 <Elronnd> Huh, I'm getting a weird error from mono
05:32:38 <Elronnd> "Cannot open assembly 'Program.cs': File does not contain a valid CIL image."
05:33:19 <Elronnd> Oh, apparently I have to compile with mcs first
05:34:25 <Trioxin> i just opened it in vs2015
05:36:13 <Trioxin> i think i might need to define a string, hold on. I got a CLI app that was outputting info from the GA's epochs
05:37:32 <Elronnd> Oh, apparently vs is available for linux
05:38:19 <Elronnd> I opened the folder, now how do I run the program?
05:41:25 <Trioxin> you just pass the string via cli
05:42:15 <Trioxin> compiled with vs then ran from cli
05:42:26 <Elronnd> how do you compile with vs?
05:42:41 <Trioxin> just hit "Start" or build solution
05:42:47 <Trioxin> http://screencast.com/t/h0nRvAqPnh
05:43:53 <Trioxin> the play button in VS lol. produces a directory called AIProgrammer/bin/AIProgrammer.exe
05:44:06 <Trioxin> or build solution, whatever
05:45:52 <Trioxin> that's interesting. target string is hello. So far it's best fitness has been "hi"
05:46:35 <Elronnd> I'm getting an ERROR: Debug adapter process has terminated unexpectedly
05:47:33 <Trioxin> probably best on windows. i'll send you a compiled version. let me know if you want to change the fitness parameter explained near the top of Program.cs
05:47:44 <Trioxin> want me to change it rather
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05:48:58 <Trioxin> wow i don't get it. I defined "hello" as the target and the program finished with: hi
05:49:52 <Trioxin> once it hit "hi" it considered that the best till the end
05:50:31 <Trioxin> it was still generating far after it first came up with hi too
05:52:01 <Trioxin> https://spideroak.com/storage/NNZGC6I/shared/462690-13-15328/bin.tar.gz?92a837f9aad6a97caddb46f9b046825e
05:54:05 <Trioxin> "hi" must be hard-coded somewhere
05:57:46 <Trioxin> well, "Note, input is taken in byte value (not ASCII character)."
05:58:40 <Trioxin> i passed it 2. waiting for output
05:59:17 <Elronnd> Now I have to get a decent bf implementation
05:59:32 <Trioxin> // If/Then example. Accepts input from the user (1, 2, 3) and prints out text, depending on the option selected.
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05:59:55 <Trioxin> it's giving me damn "hi" again. should be "z"
06:01:09 <Trioxin> maybe change this in Program.cs? private static TargetParams _targetParams = new TargetParams { TargetString = "hi" };
06:01:25 <Elronnd> It keeps giving me "unbalanced ']'"
06:02:28 <Elronnd> the brainfuck interpreter, that is
06:02:45 <Elronnd> I think it's producing malformed brainfuck
06:03:47 <Trioxin> http://hastebin.com/qamojiqohu.coffee
06:04:31 <Elronnd> still producing malformed bf
06:05:02 <Trioxin> the bf the ai is using is outputting it correctly
06:05:25 <Elronnd> the ai appears to be producing bf it can interpret, yes
06:05:34 <Elronnd> I doubt it's a version problem
06:05:52 <Elronnd> brainfuck standards are pretty much set in stone, at this point
06:06:06 <Elronnd> if it used some weird extensions to brainfuck, I think it would say so
06:06:08 <Trioxin> cause it looks like it's running the code against bf when it outputs the results
06:07:40 <Trioxin> oh well. it's not like these fitness functions are that great anyway
06:08:54 <izabera> https://arin.ga/BoVkW7/raw compiling this on x86_64 with -Ofast -march=native, clang produces 1 movq, gcc produces 8 movb
06:09:17 <izabera> sorry that wasn't relevant to the current discussion
06:10:05 <Trioxin> it's a cool proof of concept though however infantile
06:12:00 <Trioxin> i don't know all that much about quantum computing/creating algorithms for quantum computers but I always wondered if something like this could be done with quantum gating
06:13:18 <Trioxin> i know there's some project (I think by Google) that let's you run your algos on their d-wave. Of course I don't believe the d-wave to be a true quantum computer
06:13:46 <pikhq_> Yeah, something about the d-wave smells.
06:13:48 <Trioxin> i know some lab recently created a QC based on quantum gating though
06:14:52 <Trioxin> and we've got quantum coherence in silicon now too
06:18:16 <Trioxin> is brainfuck limited to just being turing complete? like no networking or other systems api access?
06:18:37 <pikhq_> Without any sort of extensions, yes.
06:19:03 <pikhq_> It has the ability to do arbitrary computation, and to access stdin and stdout.
06:19:32 <ais523> we talk about "brainfuck-completeness" which is Turing-complete + can do arbitrary things with stdin and stdout access (including making stdout any Turing-equivalent function of stdin)
06:21:37 <Trioxin> hmm. so you could extend it with external components and actually have it do a lot more using this sort of machine learning
06:22:23 <ais523> the most true to the spirit of brainfuck is to write a syscall library that communicates over stdin and stdout
06:22:31 <ais523> although most people's attempts to do that have stalled quickly
06:22:46 <pikhq_> It turns out to be harder than it looks.
06:23:22 <Trioxin> and so the computer will write it for us :P
06:23:41 <pikhq_> Yeaaah, that's a ways off.
06:24:16 <pikhq_> Google still hires software engineers you know. :P
06:26:20 <Trioxin> ray kurzweil is over there. i remember him being quoted as saying he could write a super-intelligence in 50 lines of lisp. of course it would take an eternity to run and get to that point
06:27:27 <Trioxin> using the same sort of method as this BF programmer AI
06:27:32 <pikhq_> Huh, does Kurzweil work for Google? News to me.
06:27:53 <Trioxin> yeah, i think he heads up deep mind
06:28:15 <pikhq_> Maybe I'll pay him a visit for shits and giggles.
06:29:36 <Trioxin> lucky. I'm a convicted felon so I have to code for myself and only get to work for big companies under contract
06:29:54 <pikhq_> Eeep. Well, that sucks.
06:29:56 <Elronnd> I don't know if you're joking
06:30:17 <pikhq_> Elronnd: Well, being a convicted felon does make it nigh impossible to get a job here.
06:30:44 <pikhq_> And perversely serves only to increase crime.
06:31:05 <Elronnd> governments in general are fucked up in many ways
06:31:22 <Trioxin> I'm not joking. one stupid mistake when I was 18 all effed up on xanax and alcohol (Going into unlocked cars and removing mostly random useless things)
06:32:03 <pikhq_> Yup, sounds like the way it goes. Do something stupid when you're a dumb 18 year old and voila you're fucked.
06:32:12 <ais523> I'm not even sure the UK has a felony/misdemeanor split; perhaps it does but it certainly isn't part of popular culture like it is in the US
06:32:18 <pikhq_> Elronnd: "Felony" is surprisingly easy to hit.
06:32:53 <pikhq_> ais523: I suspect the UK also doesn't make it so that once you're a felon you're basically an untouchable.
06:32:59 <Trioxin> yeah. and I had a pub defender so they were supposed to do this thing called running my charges concurrent which would have put them all into 1 and I could have expunged them later
06:33:14 <Trioxin> instead I have 7 felonies for 1 crime
06:33:29 <Trioxin> (Each car they knew I broke into)
06:33:45 <Trioxin> public defender fucked me over
06:34:01 <Trioxin> if you call it "Breaking in"
06:34:16 <Trioxin> the charge is "Burglary of an unoccupied conveyance"
06:34:55 * pikhq_ especially 'loves' things like "felons can't vote".
06:35:07 <Trioxin> i woke up in jail not knowing why i was there
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08:25:11 <Trioxin> Erlonnd, I was convicted of a slew of burglary and theft charges that should have been rolled up into 1 charge that I could have gotten expunged from my record. The limit for expunging is 4 charges so it's pointless with 7 felonies.
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11:35:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46344&oldid=45951 * 82.25.49.46 * (+1) /* List of OISCs */ Subleq's conditional is "less than or equal to 0", not just "less than 0"
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11:54:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46345&oldid=45991 * 82.25.49.46 * (-9) /* External resources */ TechTinkering URL to point to new GH-based site
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13:07:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The chan-esoteric stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46346&oldid=46342 * Stalem * (+95) Added CHIP-8
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14:55:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~EarthBit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46347&oldid=45470 * YoYoYonnY * (+0) Fixed a typo
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15:34:28 <asie> haven't been here for ages
15:36:35 <oerjan> one of the ancients! although you were pretty young when you were ancient.
15:37:06 <asie> i joined when i was like 11 or 12?
15:37:12 <asie> that's almost half my life woah
15:37:19 <asie> oerjan: yeah i suspect 2008
15:37:41 <asie> i'm curious as to anything that might've happened that i missed
15:37:43 <asie> i see a lot more -bots
15:37:56 <asie> also i did mature a lot, i think so at least
15:38:09 <asie> at least i think my code doesn't suck as much anymore
15:38:17 <oerjan> the bots hover around 10% of the channel
15:38:17 <asie> i guess that's a good measure of maturity
15:38:26 <FireFly> oh man, 2008 was that long ago..
15:38:48 <Taneb> Jeez, back in 2008 I hadn't got here yet
15:38:57 <asie> I'm an ancient who remembers nothing about the ancient days
15:38:59 <quintopia> asie: the last time you were here was mar 10 of last year
15:39:05 <asie> quintopia: I did lurk briefly
15:39:05 <FireFly> 2008 was about when I joined for the first time probably
15:39:11 <asie> but I wasn't really active per se
15:39:18 <asie> I think the last time I was active might've been 12-13?
15:39:41 <asie> even then, it's been ages since i was "into" esolangs
15:39:43 <mauris> wow is it time for one of my many internet-wide encounters with asiekierka
15:39:50 <asie> mauris: what communities?
15:39:59 <asie> i know someone who knew me from ZZT and Minecraft. a rare-but-not-surprising combination
15:40:09 <asie> oh man i missed you so much
15:40:16 <asie> well, not really, but i liked you a lot
15:40:19 <asie> so i guess i retroactively miss you now
15:40:32 <mauris> aw~ i am around in here most of the time
15:40:37 <Taneb> asikierka... that name sounds familiar
15:40:39 <FireFly> Hey, didn't you do some DS homebrew at some point?
15:40:47 <asie> which was 20% code from #dsdev on blitzed
15:40:56 <asie> but i was too young to care
15:41:12 <asie> then my ds lite's hinge broke
15:41:16 <asie> and there were no more homebrews
15:41:21 <FireFly> It's further than I got when I tried to delve into homebrew
15:41:27 <mauris> remember rocks 'n' diamonds. good times :'>
15:41:37 <asie> it's still around
15:41:39 <mauris> being like freakin', 8 and 9 on the internet
15:41:43 <asie> they recently put up a git repo for development
15:41:52 <asie> being 8 or 9 on the internet was both a blessing and a curse
15:41:55 <asie> i now feel like an internet native
15:41:58 <asie> but a real life foreigner
15:42:17 <Taneb> I didn't get regular on the internet until 2006 I think
15:42:18 <asie> right now i'm blasting music through a zx spectrum+ 128k i got fixed
15:42:21 <mauris> i know that feeling :(
15:42:34 <asie> should port some esolangs to it to learn the z80
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15:43:41 <asie> mauris: anyhow, what you missed: i got into slice-of-life cartoons from japan, i got into minecraft modding then got out of it then got into it again repeat a few times, i made some random projects
15:43:41 <quintopia> hmm, i don't have complete logs on my vps. they're on my old laptop. does anyone have greppable logs to tell me when i first joined?
15:51:16 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure fizzie does.
15:55:20 <mezkhalin> well in a sense i guess just taking in the environment your brain is sort of programming :P
15:55:39 <mezkhalin> anyways i wanted to tell you i did get around to writing the article on pisano programming
15:55:40 <Taneb> I've been trying to prove that insertion sort is a sorting algorithm using Agda
15:55:49 <Taneb> It's slow progress
15:56:03 <mezkhalin> don't know what Agda really is, i'll have to look into it
15:56:12 <Taneb> Proof assistant language
15:56:23 <Taneb> It's dependently typed and functional
15:56:33 <mezkhalin> ah ok now i get it, i got the formulation of your sentence completely wrong
15:57:05 <mezkhalin> i grouped "is a sorting algorithm using agda" ie insertion sort is using agda
15:57:32 <mezkhalin> does sound like a complex task though
15:57:41 <mezkhalin> no dont apologize the fault was mine :)
15:58:00 <LexiciScriptor> mezkhalin: yesterday I checked some articles about the pisano period and maybe there is an algorithm < O(n^2)
15:58:05 <mezkhalin> i'm not very proficient in parsing text messages very well
15:58:09 <Taneb> It's one of the easiest sorting algorithms to prove, I think
15:58:17 <Taneb> I can do it on paper easily
15:58:51 <mezkhalin> Taneb: i'd still call that impressive by my standards ;) you could regard me as "dumb" really
15:59:06 <mezkhalin> LexiciScriptor: an algorithm for finding the length of p(n) for any n?
15:59:18 <Taneb> Naw, I just have more of a maths background than you, I guess
15:59:21 <Taneb> Or at least a different one
15:59:50 <mezkhalin> Taneb: most likely, i only got so far as to an equivalent of 11-12th grade maybe
16:00:09 <Taneb> What's that in British?
16:00:12 <mezkhalin> the rest has been hazily distributed reading on the internet :P
16:00:34 <mezkhalin> british um, by the age of 18-19 would be a better scale
16:00:42 <Taneb> That's pretty good
16:01:10 <mezkhalin> yeah i'd say so. but not as high as i'd wanted
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16:10:11 <quintopia> who here knows lots of machine learning algos?
16:10:32 <Taneb> mezkhalin: I'm sober
16:10:44 <Taneb> And in my third year of university
16:11:28 <oerjan> LexiciScriptor: since p(n) cannot be larger than n^2 (can it be larger than n?), you'd think so...
16:12:58 <mezkhalin> Taneb: heh what difference an s can make. nice, you're almost finished then?
16:13:23 <Taneb> I've got another year (I'm doing a four year course)
16:14:02 <mezkhalin> you'll end up with a nice degree then and magnificent knowledge
16:14:10 <Taneb> I certainly hope so
16:14:15 <mezkhalin> oerjan: we're talking pisano sequences here
16:14:45 <mezkhalin> Taneb: given the impression i've gotten you'll do perfectly fine i think :)
16:15:01 <Taneb> I'm not very good at putting effort into things
16:17:19 <mezkhalin> oerjan: finding the length of a pisano sequence p(n) for any n yields wildy varying results. there's no general formula afaik
16:21:30 <Taneb> It is never more than n^2
16:21:53 <Taneb> Because there's only n^2 pairs of numbers modulo n
16:22:52 <Taneb> oerjan: with n =3, the Pisano sequence is 0, 1, 1, 2, 0, 2, 2, 1
16:23:01 <Taneb> Which has length 8
16:26:59 <quintopia> Taneb: OEIS says there is an explicit formula for the nth term in terms of the prime factorization of n. So it at least has as much an explicit formula as the totient function does.
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16:37:35 <izabera> one month ago https://arin.ga/hyenKJ/raw today https://arin.ga/9X5ujU/raw
16:41:03 <oerjan> mezkhalin: he spoke about an algorithm, not a formula. there's an obvious O(n^2) one (where n is the number, not its bit size)
16:42:51 <LexiciScriptor> actually it's easy to see (new things for me!) that p(n) <= 6n
16:45:04 <oerjan> quintopia: it's not an explicit formula, it just splits up into prime powers and those are still mysterious.
16:45:45 <quintopia> oerjan: same goes for the totient function :)
16:45:53 <mezkhalin> oerjan: sorry mate, my math is sub subpar so don't take my ramblings as truth or the likes
16:46:27 <oerjan> quintopia: no it doesn't. you don't have a formula for a(p^n) (or a(p)) in general.
16:46:39 <oerjan> you do have that for the totient.
16:47:10 <oerjan> although i see it's conjectured that p^n follows from p
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16:48:06 <oerjan> quintopia: to be clear, i meant it's still mysterious _after_ you've managed to factorize it.
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17:25:02 <Taneb> izabera, is this in brainfuck?
17:27:04 <izabera> uh i didn't write the mandelbrot, i wrote the interpreter
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17:27:13 <Taneb> It's still impressive!
17:27:16 <Taneb> Just not your impressive
17:27:23 <Taneb> Someone else is impressive!
17:28:43 <Taneb> I keep thinking about an idea for an optimizing bf compiler I keep coming back to
17:28:51 <Taneb> Ought to actually write it sometime
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17:29:58 <Taneb> Turning balanced single or possibly 2-depth loops into hardcoded polynomials
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17:30:41 <Taneb> My intuition wasn't completely loony!
17:31:01 <Taneb> I think you can do it for 2-depth but I'm not sure
17:31:10 <Taneb> Shit, I've got to get to a lecture
17:31:12 <Taneb> Speak to you later
17:34:24 <izabera> the most "complex" thing it can optimize is something like a balanced loop with a zero-loop inside of it, like [>>++<+>>>----<<<<[-]]
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18:45:15 <izabera> my guess is that Taneb probably means to reduce [>+++<-] to tape[1] += tape[0] * 3; tape[0] = 0
18:50:04 <coppro> is there a faster way to do that than that loop?
19:00:04 <Taneb> coppro, at compile time, maybe
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19:26:15 <Taneb> coppro, consider [->[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]<<<]
19:27:09 <Taneb> This'll set cell 1 to 0, cell 2 to the sum of cell 2 and cell 4, cell 3 to the sum of cell 3, cell 2, and the product of one less than cell 1 and the sum of cell 2 and cell 4, and cell 4 to 0
19:28:12 <Taneb> Assuming the loop is ran at all
19:28:37 <Taneb> This can clearly be implemented more efficiently than just looping
19:38:23 <Taneb> I think in a lot of cases it's possible to derive a formula like that automatically
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20:00:08 <izabera> Taneb: https://arin.ga/2BSrQY/raw
20:00:28 <izabera> (now it can also generate c)
20:00:38 <izabera> (figured it was easier to read for most people)
20:05:39 <izabera> your analysis for cell 3 is too advanced :\
20:09:45 <Taneb> izabera, it's c_n+1 = c_n + b_n, b_n = b_n-1 + d_n-1, and noting that d is almost always 0
20:10:50 <Taneb> And then you can use summation laws
20:11:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GolfScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46348&oldid=44531 * 94.100.212.168 * (-239)
20:17:34 <izabera> let's see how gcc optimizes that
20:18:44 * izabera feels entitled to not optimize it
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21:31:15 <izabera> is the new largest known prime
21:31:34 <ais523> numbers a little above 19100, such as the 19103 at the end of that, tend to bring thoughts of the Y2K bug to my mind
21:31:42 <ais523> I mentally parse it as a typo for 2003
21:32:26 <ais523> Y2K genuinely was a problem at one time, but because the effects were recognised in advance, there was time to fix everything important
21:33:26 <ais523> we were given leaflets about how to compensate for Y2K (which, for example, recommended setting the year on VCRs to one which had the same day-of-week/day-of-month correspondence to 2000)
21:33:51 <ais523> (VCR = videocassette recorder; pretty much obsolete technology nowadays but they were pretty common in 1999)
21:33:56 <myname> who the hell sotes dates as 3 2-digit-numbers?
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21:36:18 <ais523> myname: well hardly anyone /nowadays/
21:36:22 <ais523> but it was common at the time
21:36:39 <ais523> although, even now, if you look at a file which has a date as part of the filename
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21:36:51 <ais523> ddmmyy or yymmdd formats are quite common
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21:42:27 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah. not only in computers, but also printed on paper, such as on bank card POS terminal receipts or food expiry dates. often in very ambiguous formats like yy-mm-dd vs dd-mm-yy vs mm-dd-yy or yy-mm vs mm-yy vs mm-dd vs dd-mm
21:42:54 <ais523> on #tasvideos a while back we were having a debate about hh:mm versus mm:ss
21:43:05 <b_jonas> Luckily at least medicine these days tends to use YYYY-mm or mm-YYYY
21:43:10 <ais523> (triggered by a game using hh:mm:ss:ff, with one frame being 1/60 of one second; IMO the colon is correct there but lots of people disagreed)
21:43:15 <myname> people using dd-mm-yy should burn in hell
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21:43:39 <ais523> myname: no, they should learn to put the extra digits in theyear
21:44:00 <myname> - should imply yy mm dd
21:44:01 <b_jonas> people should just use YYYY-mm-dd or YYYYmmdd
21:44:21 <myname> these / are for crazy orderings
21:44:32 <HackEgo> 2016-02-02 21:44:21.269801000+00:00
21:45:05 <myname> mm dd yy is just plain crazy
21:48:17 <ais523> myname: so what about dates between 1 and 100 AD/CE?
21:49:33 <ais523> myname: they naturally only have two digits
21:49:49 <ais523> a date like 10/11/12 has a lot of possible interpretations
21:50:42 <myname> i never saw a - aeperated date any other way than yy-mm-dd
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21:51:01 <myname> only / has these weird "anything goes" attitude
21:51:54 <ais523> what about .-separated dates? I think I've seen those as both dmy and ymd
21:52:08 <b_jonas> Then there's the strange traditional unix format of %a %b %_d %H:%M:%S %Z %Y; the unreadable (to me) randomly abbreviated formats like "3 months ago" and "jan 14" and "feb 9 '15" that some websites (like StackExchange) use, and the traditinonal date formats used by the HTTP headers and mail headers.
21:52:15 <myname> as a german, i only know dd.mm.yy
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21:58:14 <b_jonas> The nastiest abuse of dates though is when the translated label says something to the effect of “See expiration date on cap (month/date)” but the cap actually has expiration in %d/%m format.
22:00:35 <b_jonas> The only good thing I can say about dates printed on products is that at least when there's only one date shown, it's always the expiry or best before date, not the date of manufacture.
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22:07:00 <b_jonas> Even then there are exceptions: iirc return tickets for train show the purchase date and the start of validity, but not the end of validity. But that's different from products, because they actually have a start of validity that can be in the future.
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22:32:29 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a new golphy/usable/terse language called "shorthand" (for now)
22:32:38 <hppavilion[1]> |sserv fn:m{srv<=ssv.srv;upn:srv.srcv{sck=>(<<-sck)->>sck}} is a cat server
22:33:06 <hppavilion[1]> |ssv fn:m{srv<=ssv.srv;upn:srv.srcv{sck=>(<<-sck)->>sck}}
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22:37:59 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized that a cat program is basically a repl for that cat programming language
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22:39:39 <hppavilion[1]> Even better for a cat server, |ssv;srv<=ssv.srv;upn:srv.srcv{sck=>(<<-sck)->>sck}
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