< 1449100834 150392 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: What is a norn exactly? < 1449100866 198779 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main focus of the Creatures series, an artificial life form with a brain and biochemistry < 1449100875 340422 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://creatures.wiki/Norn < 1449100881 613937 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That must have been an interesting introduction for cryptsting. < 1449100917 258072 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cryptsting, we don't torture people here. Unless computer programs are people. < 1449100931 747336 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And even then, if people turn into computer programs someday, I won't torture them) < 1449100951 773012 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: What makes the Norns go at the programmatical level? < 1449100965 211666 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: But what if computer programs turn into people? < 1449100965 787962 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, someone I know kind of gets on my case about being careful as AI advances < 1449101010 113739 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There're probably being smart. But who cares? We have things to torture. < 1449101028 301366 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1], neural network made of several lobes. Input lobes which receive data from the engine (including drives and what's nearby), a combination lobe which combines them, and output lobes, one for an action and one for a noun (attn) < 1449101032 485484 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But not living things. For the record. Unless you count a Neural Network as living) < 1449101037 713323 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFK < 1449101060 61374 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Ah, that makes sense. I might use that model in my hell. < 1449101542 855935 :relrod_!~relrod@redhat/relrod NICK :relrod < 1449101571 346229 :cryptsting!~cryptstin@108.61.178.140 QUIT :Read error: Connection timed out < 1449101605 411398 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much for a `relcomed newcomer :/ < 1449101613 284583 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: were you ever `relcomed? < 1449101756 709928 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does one go about creating an esoteric language? Is it easier to compile it, or translate to something else (c, for example)? < 1449101859 701468 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean define, or do you mean implement? < 1449102244 809763 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242512118.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1449102272 625896 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I'm new, and have no clue what I just asked. < 1449102356 164094 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks Google. I suppose I mean implementing. < 1449102381 954262 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242512118.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can either make a compiler, translator, or interpreter < 1449102410 393619 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242512118.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :compiler: takes a program in language X and produces a native EXE or ELF executable < 1449102434 736817 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242512118.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :translator: takes a program in language X and produces a program in language Y < 1449102480 721294 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242512118.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :interpreter: takes a program and language X and produces the effect of running that program < 1449102512 732336 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242512118.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :any language can be used to write these < 1449102531 664083 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm.. It sounds an interpreter would be easiest? < 1449102541 424298 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242512118.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually, yes < 1449102564 484566 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So as someone who has never done something along these lines, would it be suggested that I go that route? < 1449102615 80393 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242512118.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1449102757 928991 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hey, people talking about Creatures? < 1449102760 568 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat. < 1449103160 658899 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: Do you have any idea what I should do with neural networks? I want to do something, but I don't know what xD < 1449103193 544203 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavellon[1]. MNIST! < 1449103216 15127 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: MNIST? < 1449103277 844368 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: I recommend using an interpreter, definitely. But that's for implementing, not for creating. < 1449103342 991355 :jaboja!~jaboja@erw208.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449103369 4596 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: MNIST. http://yann.lecun.com/exdb/mnist/ < 1449103434 163965 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: Oh, that's a database. I'm wondering what I should /do/ with neural networking in the /first/ place. < 1449103553 316592 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: so then does 'creating' imply designing? < 1449103631 686898 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very good dataset to play with. with a neural network you can (hopefully) classify stuff, in this case handwritten digits. < 1449103894 940902 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: Yes. < 1449103902 200641 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most certainly. < 1449104030 564962 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: An idea for a hell is, instead of pain, using fear. < 1449104425 68790 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, Imma make a brain called Hive. Not sure how to go about it, but who cares. < 1449104440 779525 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :brains are overrated. < 1449104452 341916 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel bad if I scared cryptsting < 1449104468 711220 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's really a difference between pain and fear in norn brains < 1449104496 550165 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just what can cause them. There IS a difference between pain/fear and the rest of the drives.. the presence of the former temporarily lowers other drives < 1449104526 855175 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With the exception of one of the hunger drives, which when it returns turns into a different drive... pretty sure that's a bug in the genome) < 1449105410 398866 :jaboja!~jaboja@erw208.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1449108806 884754 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloily < 1449108855 463833 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1449108968 846319 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1449109130 961148 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily? < 1449109385 781723 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, have you seen boily? < 1449109386 291682 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: this is where we are big now it was a nonsense statement. actually, the exception only needs to ,config ,load a packages.scm defining the corresponding structure, i think < 1449109399 49380 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :^styles < 1449109402 477806 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1449109402 771395 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube < 1449109418 852348 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style homestuck < 1449109419 105157 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) < 1449109583 634528 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quinthellopia! sorry, was watching a horrible sequel... < 1449109594 47878 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I am here. < 1449109594 301653 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: have a look. a trail of this fluid in the hall. you are going in. < 1449109602 422949 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what? no! < 1449109602 805162 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds? i sure as hell don't care what the consequences. they allude to other things as well? < 1449109624 922883 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I don't hate pumpkin seeds, and ain't no way I'm going in. ew. < 1449109625 180840 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: is it. perhaps this one. in a kid's yard. not even that sure why < 1449109639 153479 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: don't ask me. you're creepy. < 1449109639 532883 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: in a good way though < 1449109655 733318 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: eeeeh... please consider the expression of my doubts. < 1449109676 104824 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now, time to appreciate the softness of my pillow. < 1449109684 251722 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: INDUSTRIAL CHICKEN < 1449109804 188741 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1449111348 507881 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gxjfgbxepovnhhqn JOIN :#esoteric < 1449111927 888404 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would first look into general language design. < 1449111932 970350 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait I'm scrolled up. < 1449111952 399073 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also hppavilion talked to me? < 1449112091 759112 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And later left. < 1449112323 866074 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1014 < 1449112327 187306 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1014: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1449112452 114177 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, you're fast < 1449112482 627047 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Faster than IFTTT is at checking RSS and Twitter < 1449112723 190457 :jaboja!~jaboja@erw208.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449112825 427533 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are many uses of neural nets, but for something like norns brains I would try to actually implement Babbage. < 1449112920 486668 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since if the simulae brain is taken as being the cpu's emotion, one can use it to impliment the "might do" loop statement. < 1449113087 431624 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Else is such a nice error handling method. < 1449113221 316943 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDream < 1449113565 330832 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ordinal numbers are keeping me awake. < 1449113592 688571 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to decide what I think the smallest non-well-behaved ordinal number is. < 1449113599 355128 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so this has me thinking about ordinal notations. < 1449113607 208911 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia defines a certain ordinal notation. < 1449113620 909551 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And doesn't follow it? :P < 1449113636 280904 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is the smallest ordinal number. Z(a,b) is the smallest ordinal number which is greater than a and b, and which is greater than Z(c,d) for c < a or for c = a and b < d. < 1449113660 338433 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, taken together, these definitions form an ordinal notation. < 1449113678 352094 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let, uh... let E be the set of all ordinal numbers defined by this notation. < 1449113720 819896 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The notation provides a function (1 + E * E) -> E. A bijection, actually. < 1449113772 73827 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now... < 1449113773 767012 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is Z(a,b) > Z(a,d) if b < d? < 1449113799 506130 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops. s/b < d/d < b/ < 1449113816 23884 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1449113830 78504 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then the question is, how do you compare ordinal numbers defined in this notation? < 1449113855 410386 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, let's try to compare 0 and Z(a,b). Hey, guess what? Z(a,b) is guaranteed to be greater than something, which means that it's greater than 0. < 1449113870 757841 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, let's next try to compare Z(a,b) and Z(c,d). < 1449113938 752021 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The easy case: a = c, b < d. In this case, Z(c,d) = Z(a,d) is greater than Z(a,e) for e < d, so Z(a,d) is greater than Z(a,b). < 1449113945 146148 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the hard case: a < c. < 1449113965 379714 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Supposedly, in this case, Z(a,b) < Z(c,d) if and only if b < Z(c,d). < 1449113966 769331 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1449113988 939322 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, because... < 1449114016 341262 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because, well... < 1449114021 228537 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a < c, so we can forget about it since Z(a,b) is greater than a,b? < 1449114052 193865 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, there's my other mistake. < 1449114057 850344 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, let me restate the definition entirely. < 1449114060 946148 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1449114080 857193 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is the smallest ordinal number. Z(a,b) is the smallest ordinal number which is greater than a and b, and which is *not equal to* Z(c,d) for c < a or for c = a and d < b. < 1449114186 319771 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, it's clear enough that Z(a,b) is increasing in b. < 1449114212 429102 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the "easy case", comparing Z(a,b) and Z(c,d) for a = c, is still just as easy. < 1449114245 241629 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So now the hard case, a < c. In which, supposedly, Z(a,b) < Z(c,d) if and only if b < Z(c,d). < 1449114263 660495 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I think I'm starting to remember. < 1449114295 67705 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z(c,d) is a fixed point of the function Z(a,-). How do we know this? It's because... um... < 1449114443 392613 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449114446 222942 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something something normal function? < 1449114484 575314 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see. Is the function Z(a,b) normal in b? < 1449114578 395074 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For all ordinals a < b, f(a) < f(b)." Yup, we know that. "For every limit ordinal g, f(g) = sup {f(n) : n < g}." Um... I think so? < 1449114583 106897 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me chew on that a bit. < 1449114624 231792 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what, I think Z is *not* normal in b. < 1449114669 801468 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Z(0,omega) is omega + 1. < 1449114699 940228 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Babbage? < 1449114760 549546 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how about for a > 0, then is it normal? < 1449114826 148332 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION peeks at the answer.
< 1449114874 117962 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like the answer is: never. < 1449114929 150857 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's give the Veblen functions a try. < 1449114948 258105 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... wait, I don't want to do that yet. < 1449115043 235579 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello tswett. < 1449115047 252146 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey hppavilion[1]. < 1449115058 546816 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm now interested in Neural Networking < 1449115064 176804 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Particularly with PyBrain < 1449115115 645019 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess a crucial fact is that the function Z(0,b) "misses" "Ord-many" ordinal numbers. < 1449115131 555131 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, it's just b+1, so it misses all the limit ordinals. < 1449115147 450849 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry if I seem a bit distracted. It's because I am. < 1449115162 961677 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird < 1449115263 611595 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the function Z(1,b) gives the smallest ordinal number which is greater than b and which is missed by Z(0,-). < 1449115276 247819 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this function *also* misses Ord-many ordinal numbers. < 1449115302 18976 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do we know this? Good question... < 1449115532 26392 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, suppose you take the function Z(1,-) and iterate it on your favorite ordinal number. You'll get an infinite increasing sequence. Consider the limit of this sequence... call it m. Z(1,m) has to be bigger than m, by definition. But for k < m, Z(1,k) is smaller than m... < 1449115573 954939 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...because once you find a number in the sequence bigger than k, the following number (which is smaller than m) is bigger than Z(1,k). < 1449115597 790673 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, for every ordinal number, there's a bigger number which Z(1,-) misses. < 1449115603 699934 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z(1,-) misses Ord-many ordinal numbers. < 1449115632 953022 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, I think this is true for every function f with the property that for all ordinal numbers x, f(x) > x. < 1449115646 212503 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: What should I purpose my Neural Net to do... < 1449115680 534769 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll definitely be bluetoothkinetic- that is, able to sense the bluetooth in the surrounding environment < 1449115714 599064 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that rules out everything unrelated to Bluetooth, right? < 1449115717 753855 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Teach it to hijack cars' speakers, and broadcast scary messages. < 1449115761 550085 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Well I want it to be more of a generic assistant and/or toy with special abilities than a single-purpose robot < 1449115794 751020 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you want to actually build it into a robot? < 1449115817 101724 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! Of course not < 1449115822 954032 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't be ridiculous < 1449115823 716631 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1449115828 135733 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1449115841 774922 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, like, this is totally software, no hardware. < 1449115842 936908 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really just want a fun widget. < 1449115845 518391 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1449115847 628688 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just software < 1449115875 18717 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm. It'll be hard to do something that hasn't been done before. < 1449115888 46287 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much < 1449115925 376274 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what I've wanted to make a neural net do? < 1449115931 359728 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1449115933 644395 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take an English word and predict the corresponding Spanish word. < 1449115939 946360 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh < 1449115944 216776 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be interesting < 1449115957 410624 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would, of course, come up with predictions for things that aren't actually English words, like "vonk". < 1449115960 922403 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's french and german... http://104.131.78.120/ < 1449115962 63665 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't figure out how to make Pybrain accept variable-width strings < 1449115993 227978 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that because Pybrain feeds the entire string into the neural net all at once? < 1449116000 877089 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure < 1449116008 910672 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: You know what I want to do? Make a Neural Net that feels pain. < 1449116016 230077 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then construct Neural Net hell. < 1449116038 844143 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either that or make a small race of neural-net-based individuals and train them all to worship me as a god. < 1449116058 408459 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll have to figure out what it means for a neural net to feel pain or to worship. < 1449116063 527308 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, theoretically, I should be sleeping right now. < 1449116071 216996 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only reason I'm not sleeping is that I'm thinking about ordinal numbers. < 1449116082 302153 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I really ought to either go to sleep, or continue thinking about ordinal numbers. < 1449116084 663435 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I choose the latter. < 1449116086 212429 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Feeling pain would just be punishment; put the neural net in a state and program it to avoid being in that state. < 1449116112 696523 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excellent choice, monsoir. < 1449116116 928137 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that's easy. < 1449116222 333251 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: And make it a big neural network so that the pain feels meaningful to us < 1449116400 25377 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, now. Z(0,-) misses Ord-many numbers, so Z(1,-) exists. It misses Ord-many numbers, so Z(2,-) exists. And so forth. < 1449116434 142819 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to temporarily forget about the question of whether or not Z(omega,-) exists. < 1449116437 483060 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Spoiler: it does.) < 1449116644 131921 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's do a relatively concrete comparison, why not? < 1449116672 113383 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is bigger: Z(6,b) or Z(7,d)? < 1449116688 323036 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Supposedly that question reduces to this one: < 1449116693 429025 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is bigger: b or Z(7,d)? < 1449116748 52850 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess that comes down to the fact that Z(7,d) can't lie in between b and Z(6,b). < 1449116752 630202 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, why not? < 1449116798 79614 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, suppose that b < Z(7,d). < 1449116938 67916 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see. Z(7,d) is one of the numbers that's missed by Z(6,-). < 1449116973 628566 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means that Z(7,d) is not any of the elements in this sequence: b, Z(6,b), Z(6,Z(6,b)), Z(6,Z(6,Z(6,b))), ... < 1449116995 4529 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But could it be stuck in the middle somewhere? < 1449117095 216191 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... I think the answer is theoretically yes. < 1449117124 839025 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, if Z(6,x) were x*2, the answer would be yes. < 1449117153 76415 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The answer is in fact no, but we don't know this given the mere fact that Z(6,x) makes its argument bigger and misses Ord-many numbers. < 1449117159 255966 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is strictly increasing. < 1449118880 626976 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1449122426 997196 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1449124391 193409 :propumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1449124455 51996 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449124750 674439 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Seriously14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45746&oldid=45741 5* 03202.99.101.111 5* (+10) 10oh, no! < 1449127452 467993 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja JOIN :#esoteric < 1449128374 541625 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1449128905 663244 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449130313 705353 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449130320 324895 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fnird < 1449130329 404719 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@massages-low < 1449130329 572820 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1449130333 31424 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages-low < 1449130333 199537 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan said 11h 47m 36s ago: getVar name = do (_, _, v) <- get <-- depending on circumstances, just matching enough to ensure the resulting triple is not undefined might be too strict. does it help with a ~ before the ( ? < 1449130333 199605 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan said 11h 47m 7s ago: mind you, that might sometimes leak memory instead. < 1449130648 49877 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do all the english documentaries sound like 50min long movie trailers? < 1449130728 855592 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm... < 1449130743 261040 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What cool and/or evil shit can I do with Neural Networking... < 1449130763 24801 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hemroman! < 1449130775 880699 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :( mroman ) < 1449130776 261191 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-084-062-104-105.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(input):1:8: error: expected: "#", < 1449130776 429473 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-084-062-104-105.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : "$", "&", "&&", "&&&", "*!>", < 1449130776 429567 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-084-062-104-105.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : "*", "***", "*>", "*>|", "+", < 1449130776 429589 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-084-062-104-105.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : "++", "+++", "-", "->", ".", < 1449130776 429618 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-084-062-104-105.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : "/", "/=", ":+", ":-", "::",14↵… < 1449130785 989586 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crap. idris-bot. < 1449131651 198047 :skarn!skarn@unaffiliated/skarn QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449131705 845971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449131791 363998 :skarn!skarn@unaffiliated/skarn JOIN :#esoteric < 1449131875 129323 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54f80e-20.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449132121 387251 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Three Star Programmer14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45747&oldid=45719 5* 03Ais523 5* (+105) 10/* Implementation */ add a link to my C impl < 1449132184 226357 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: you still on? Thanks for the befunge-98 suggestion. Been working on it for a few hours, I'm cloning my Rubik's encryption in it. < 1449132187 486055 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07The Amnesiac From Minsk14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45748&oldid=45745 5* 03Ais523 5* (+1396) 10/* Implementing level 2 in level 1 */ looks like this part of the document got corrupted somehow (missing paragraphs and the wrong title for the wrong section); fixing that now < 1449132206 772597 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: I'm ALWAYS on. < 1449132245 291173 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45749&oldid=45742 5* 03Ais523 5* (+30) 10/* T */ +[[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] < 1449132272 499548 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw1-54fa3f-129.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1449132277 641050 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45750&oldid=45749 5* 03Ais523 5* (+18) 10/* L */ +[[Last ReSort]] < 1449132278 186799 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way I'm doing this code though, just doesn't feel right. I feel like befunge needs to have shapes and look pretty, but so far its massive 200 line column, just to accept any ASCII character and recognize it. < 1449132341 891845 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Ais52314]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45751&oldid=45310 5* 03Ais523 5* (+46) 10+2; it's unclear what to do about sort order when you create two languages concurrently, each taking influence from the other... < 1449132354 540489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone seen my recent languages, incidentally? < 1449132422 878868 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07OISC14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45752&oldid=45611 5* 03Ais523 5* (+50) 10/* See Also */ let's create a page the old fashioned way (i.e. creating a redlink to it first), for nostalgia's sake < 1449132439 339907 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07ZISC14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45753 5* 03Ais523 5* (+43) 10create redir < 1449133235 863808 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07OISC14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45754&oldid=45752 5* 03Ais523 5* (-6) 10change categories, this one seems to fit better < 1449133361 84117 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh great < 1449133436 268182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi b_jonas < 1449133491 500045 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Zero Instruction Set Computer14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45755 5* 03Ais523 5* (+3009) 10a new esoconcept < 1449133542 524477 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello, ais523 < 1449133553 534412 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you (or anyone else here) looked at the languages I created recently? < 1449133561 306048 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, I've looked at them < 1449133581 351148 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any opinions about them? < 1449133631 431759 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's that limited minsky machine thing, < 1449133632 400941 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07MATL14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45756&oldid=45743 5* 03Luis Mendo 5* (+0) 10/* Compiler */ < 1449133638 261398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right, that's one of them < 1449133651 617103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit I'm still stuck on level 3 < 1449133674 776577 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know how the lower levels work, but these kinds of limited Minsky machines can be useful for things like proving that M:tG is Turing-complete, < 1449133676 921568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Three Star Programmer, and later The Amnesiac From Minsk, really reignited my interest in esolangs-as-puzzles < 1449133683 88343 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I noticed that too < 1449133689 210642 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I really don't like the exponential slowdown (sometimes double exponential). < 1449133708 718914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or I probably wouldn't have thought of implementing The Amnesiac From Minsk in StackFlow) < 1449133726 382878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like the slowdown either < 1449133736 922651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you can partially work around it by writing really fast interpreters < 1449133737 300765 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for three star programmer, the reference interpreter "http://nethack4.org/esolangs/threestar.c" was down recently and I wanted to look at it, but it's up now so I can take a look. < 1449133753 483953 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I actually just overwrote it with a new, much better interpreter < 1449133777 700484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided to see how fast I could make it go, so I removed all memory allocation and just use the entire data segment as the memory array < 1449133783 134243 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that one is scary < 1449133801 134403 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not a reentrant or embeddable interpreter < 1449133848 735902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, I actually decided to avoid stdio because I wasn't quite sure it'd work < 1449133867 317849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it beats having to use realloc, though < 1449133882 230718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the most literal possible interpretation of "extending an array" < 1449133953 540288 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't you just use a separate mmapped segment for that? Then it wouldn't mess up anything else < 1449133995 877090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try to place an mmap at a location in memory at which it could extend a long way < 1449133997 951416 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, is it possible that it fails to extend memory when pptr goes over the limit but no cell points after that? < 1449134009 730997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's a) nonportable, and b) not necessarily going to work < 1449134019 519629 :^^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmap <3 < 1449134019 774775 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pptr's confined to a small region at the start of the data segment < 1449134026 753838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we store program first, then memory < 1449134035 203866 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pptr just loops around and around the program < 1449134040 513781 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1449134062 570075 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the program is stored before the data memory, right? < 1449134066 194352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1449134084 727003 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1449134096 32434 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :where do you make sure that the memory is initialized to zero when allocating the initial part? < 1449134153 950734 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the memory extender < 1449134162 83706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's used to allocate memory initially by extending it from 0 < 1449134171 321096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it does a memset on the newly allocated area < 1449134196 645903 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1449134206 934532 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you need memset of the newly allocated area? that's zero anyway < 1449134211 267777 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking about the original area < 1449134219 96057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no original area < 1449134240 504063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, there's the program's original data segment but it isn't used except for the normal purposes of a data segment < 1449134259 12482 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1449134260 954695 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to create memory we write to, we always use sbrk, and then zero the space between the old and new break < 1449134275 280360 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you sbrk anyawy when you extend, even if the data segment already had some space after? < 1449134278 878600 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1449134283 754595 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1449134287 265715 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, I don't think you understand what sbrk does < 1449134303 833933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sbrk moves the end of the data segment, causing everything between the old and new break to become/cease to be data segment < 1449134319 257809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"space after the data segment" doesn't make sense < 1449134332 253585 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can see, sbrk is a special case of mmap/munmap/mremap, which modifes the end of the data segment and returns the old end of it < 1449134346 133681 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it exists only for historical reasons < 1449134424 700715 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :from back when there was no memory mapping, paging, or os-configurable segments, and all the cpu mmu did was to enforce that user mode can't access addresses higher than some limite < 1449134450 759191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference is that memory maps created by mmap try to avoid the area that the data segment's expected to expand into, but don't try to avoid each other < 1449134463 873898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and mremapping the data segment is a good way to cause bad things to happen < 1449134472 105272 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it set the notional break between the data segment and the stack segment, where the stack segment grew down from the top of the user area < 1449134536 530652 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: even if you mremap the data segment without changing the address? mremap can do that, it isn't only for changing the base address, it's also for changing the size. < 1449134570 403085 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, I was assuming that MREMAP_MAYMOVE couldn't be turned off but it can < 1449134597 239648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then, isn't it much easier to call sbrk, than attempt to find the data segment (or an appropriate place to put a data-segment-alike) and mremap that? < 1449134611 915625 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, certainly < 1449134613 933636 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also mremap's Linux-specific < 1449134624 125844 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sbrk is easier < 1449134628 907341 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you don't actually need mremap < 1449134637 486030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas that code runs in the union of BSD and POSIX (and the POSIX dependency is only used for error messages) < 1449134638 666141 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use munmap + mmap < 1449134648 503660 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, wouldn't that deallocate the data? < 1449134655 547824 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it was backed by a file < 1449134662 702934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has its own issues < 1449134674 739248 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you'd need to back it by a file or by a "posix shared memory segment" (whcih is just a fancy libc wrapper for a file on linux) < 1449134680 657836 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, sbrk is probably easier < 1449134685 898369 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the data segment < 1449134719 545865 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok wait, but < 1449134756 817495 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of taking over all the data segment, parts of which could still somehow be used by the compiler or compiler libraries or perhaps even libc, could you instead allocate the initial array with sbrk, and < 1449134767 217816 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then later at each sbrk, assert that nobody called sbrk between your calls? < 1449134810 206682 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be much more portable, because then libc (including the runtime, signal handlers, etc) or libgcc could still use areas of the data segment that it's already allocated, < 1449134815 610105 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just wouldn't be allowed to allocate more. < 1449134849 124124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no, that's exactly what I do < 1449134861 225769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :including the assert < 1449134865 82439 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :great! < 1449134866 399625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I guess you could remove the assert for performance < 1449134872 199401 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1449134875 177797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't clear the existing bit of the data segment < 1449134881 703938 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the assert doesn't really slow down anything < 1449134884 667346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that that's a good way to cause your constants to start not existing < 1449134894 224768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and indeed, not with the current code structure < 1449134912 157520 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the assert got inlined into the middle of a loop with some previous code and broke code locality as a result < 1449134914 758409 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, good < 1449134937 375619 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the nested-loop style of writing the program persuaded gcc to not inline the allocation, which makes sense given how rarely it runs < 1449134952 570972 :^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1449134965 303218 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could tell that to the compiler explicitly < 1449134977 612630 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that the condition is rarely true that is < 1449134980 34671 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1449135035 236129 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's funny that the program doesn't actually have three consecutive stars by the way < 1449135053 469665 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try to store pointers instead of integers maybe < 1449135077 230565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, storing pointers would be more efficient on many architectures < 1449135096 597741 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that depends < 1449135098 963060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but x86 (-32 and -64 but not -16) has this really nifty addressing mode that can do the pointer deref in one instruction < 1449135115 940535 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on whether you want to restrict the integers to 32 bit < 1449135121 5571 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want 32 bit, you can't use pointers < 1449135127 874990 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in x86_64 that is) < 1449135136 141636 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want 64 bit integers, then you can. < 1449135155 4444 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 32 bit integers would be much more efficient if you're sure (and assert) the memory never grows above that < 1449135216 706343 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Last ReSort14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45757&oldid=45744 5* 03Ais523 5* (+138) 10mention the influence of Malbolge < 1449135336 214766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sort-of hoping Last ReSort is TC, because its main loop is one byte shorter than MiniMAX's and thus would set a new record < 1449135356 514796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's not as elegant because MiniMAX is capable of zeroing its own memory as memory expands, and Last ReSort isn't < 1449135495 384107 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, one byte shorter in what what? < 1449135504 620827 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, some cpu implementation or something? < 1449135514 163303 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which cpu among that? < 1449135603 344424 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, at that point I probably don't much care about how short it is, as long as it's reasonably short. < 1449135634 959161 :^^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1449135652 204262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in x86 family < 1449135672 378643 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"x86 family"? but x86_32 and x86_64 are different < 1449135676 803453 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for these purposes < 1449135699 584611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, I said that intentionally, because MiniMAX used the 8086 (which is actually relevant in this case) < 1449135720 131252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas Last ReSort's ZISC I was using x86_64, although it easily ports to other 86alikes < 1449135721 26758 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 8086 as opposed to what? < 1449135741 210919 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"easily ports" sure, it's a freaking C program afterall, but the number of bytes changes a lot < 1449135763 178421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: as opposed to the 80386 < 1449135774 763591 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1449135777 711000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, I'm talking about MiniMAX/Last ReSort < 1449135778 854379 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that matter for this? < 1449135781 996040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were originally written in machine code < 1449135791 920946 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 bytes versus 7 for the main loop < 1449135810 111732 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... let me think what the differences are that make 8086 better (as opposed to worse) < 1449135825 28876 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think push sp or pop sp work differently, < 1449135828 632181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the #1 biggest advantage is a default 16 bit data size < 1449135831 221383 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may help < 1449135845 339577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning your constants use up less space < 1449135850 834784 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, you can still do 16 bit data size on a 386 < 1449135867 63530 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :all x86 cpus can do that, except in long mode < 1449135875 652339 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :push sp or pop sp might help actually. < 1449135882 920261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you can, but I said "default" < 1449135894 165460 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they all start up in 16 bit real mode, don't they? < 1449135897 308060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to drop extra 66s and 67s into the program < 1449135903 634407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I consider that to be an 8086 emulator < 1449135912 408286 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than the "proper" 80386 instruction set < 1449135916 947462 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1449135926 261256 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 80386 adds a lot of new features to 16 bit real mode < 1449135943 394378 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of new instructions, including 32 bit arithmetic, in a legal and documented way < 1449135952 275077 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not just a "8086 emulator" < 1449135961 233322 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07MATL14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45758&oldid=45756 5* 03Luis Mendo 5* (+261) 10/* Specification */ < 1449135973 212652 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus the 286 adds 16-bit protected mode < 1449135999 963625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, let's put it this way: MiniMAX runs in real mode, Last ReSort runs in protected mode < 1449136004 793490 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1449136026 770196 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but really, does the different meaning of POP SP perhaps help in one of those variants, for one-byte dereferencing? < 1449136054 713995 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look it up how it works and when it's changed... hmm, where's that documented < 1449136070 673306 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it must be somewhere in the intel manual probably < 1449136092 665864 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07MATL14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45759&oldid=45758 5* 03Luis Mendo 5* (-350) 10/* Specification */ < 1449136097 490233 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless they decided you should just check that bit in the flags to detect the cpu < 1449136149 822630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :POP SP sounds like the sort of instruction that's generally basically useless, but might be really helpful for an esolang < 1449136155 572489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it actually do? < 1449136169 568993 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know if it's push sp or pop sp < 1449136187 239924 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them differs somewhere between the 8086 and the 80386, but I'm not sure at which stepping and which direction, < 1449136198 904785 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in whether they decrement/increment first and load/store next or backwards < 1449136203 804129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's not quite the Last ReSort ZISC all by itself, I was hoping it would be < 1449136210 899304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's sp, not *sp, that gets incremented < 1449136220 996085 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iirc it was the recommended way to detect the difference between two of those cpus, < 1449136232 468218 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although these days you can just shortcut it by detecting a later cpu directly < 1449136294 537706 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :two of the steppings use a bit in the flags register for detection < 1449136331 23386 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one is somewhere between 8086 and 80386, the other is between pentium with cpuinfo and pentium without cpuinfo, almost everything after pentium with cpuinfo just uses bits in cpuinfo for detection) < 1449136337 448800 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(almost) < 1449136360 315798 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there's more steppings between these and I don't recall what they use < 1449136361 733348 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1449136406 325616 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But these days the intel manual doesn't even bother to document those old cpus, so I'm not sure that part is documented. < 1449136431 603616 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just learned not to program at 4am. I had a 200+ line if-else statement doing something I just did in 5 lines, oops. < 1449136483 129040 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It only documents everything starting from the 386. < 1449136501 474897 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no, it actually documents a bit earlier too, partly. < 1449136556 252946 :impomatic_!~digital_w@122.189.113.87.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :POP SP might be useful for removing a stack frame. I don't the ENTER and LEAVE were available before the 286. (I might be wrong) < 1449136558 80332 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, there are more bits in EFLAGS for detection than I thought < 1449136563 690828 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some of them are also used for other things) < 1449136570 938176 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :three or four bits < 1449136572 573067 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1449136629 124455 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, here it is < 1449136632 757949 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does document that < 1449136725 921467 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says that PUSH SP differs, namely 286 and later push the old value, the 8086 pushes the new value to the stack < 1449136744 970420 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it pretends the 80186 doesn't exist, which is mostly true) < 1449136799 136465 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bit it also gives another way to distinguish between the 8086 and the 286, so I think one of those is above and one below the 80186. < 1449136810 534726 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't say anything about POP SP, but you can probably find that info somewhere else. < 1449136882 54419 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is chapter 22.17 and 22.16 in the intel manual, and it also tells how to distinguish between 386 and 486 etc < 1449136940 663717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1449136964 885774 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But very few people use real 8086 these days, because the 80386 has obsolated it. < 1449137397 572182 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :8086 didn't have leave < 1449137465 25821 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also push bp wastes valuable stack space < 1449137480 548841 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on 8086 micros with 128 bytes RAM < 1449137506 88301 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well depends on how much recursion. < 1449137529 51047 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :using recursion on micros should be done carefully < 1449137585 172744 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I think POP SP doesn't help three star programmer no matter how it works. < 1449137615 330113 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: looks like LEAVE was added with 186 < 1449137711 610191 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. < 1449137717 518608 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do compilers use conditional moves? < 1449137863 567979 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUNPCKHQDQ < 1449137895 378294 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :RSQRTSS < 1449137911 3177 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't somebody make a "is this a real instruction or not?" quiz? < 1449137962 429562 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: of course they use conditional moves. conditional moves are the best thing since sliced bread. (if you compile for x86_32, then of course they might not use them unless you tell them that it's ok if the program runs only on later archs) < 1449137999 640720 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're much better than the silly SETC stuff from 386. < 1449138081 449321 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :-march=i686 < 1449138089 655639 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you need that with gcc? < 1449138099 326706 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at least -O2 probably < 1449138103 47706 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: I'm not sure that enough. conditional moves are new, sadly. < 1449138116 225727 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but probably enough. I don't know really. < 1449138129 777900 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to be sure, read the docs and/or test. < 1449138154 790133 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only care about serious (non-eso) optimization stuff for x86_64, where luckily they're always available. < 1449138249 801870 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1449138256 405608 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should switch to 64bit OS at some point < 1449138272 194771 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing that certain people don't ever provide 32bit support for their software < 1449138275 308932 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*even < 1449138280 538460 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like docker and shit < 1449138297 133980 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should definitely switch. it's way better. < 1449138314 388835 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1449138320 360554 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2GB oughta be enough RAM for everybody < 1449138353 500249 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not about the ram < 1449138363 510124 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about code that's more efficient < 1449138376 368248 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you have more registers and stuff < 1449138387 144981 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a better abi that doesn't try to be compatible with ancient stuff < 1449138411 698182 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and programs aren't compiled for compatibility with very old cpus "just in case" someone runs them on a real 386 < 1449138425 541014 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they can all assume at least sse2 < 1449138433 589649 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can compile your programs for higher) < 1449138458 896255 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mostly, the extra registers make the programs much more efficient < 1449139510 640539 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1449139520 734922 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to write something that targets HackVM < 1449140399 935801 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1449140538 943923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449140625 801764 :shikhin!shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1449140625 969875 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1449140981 239289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye clog < 1449141007 303806 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: See ya < 1449141970 99985 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449142343 976375 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449142638 944304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449142648 285528 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1449142946 737233 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1449142974 64439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449143103 462627 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@193.86.27.79 QUIT :Quit: *bubbles away* < 1449143138 189130 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@193.86.27.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449143166 641498 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@193.86.27.79 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1449143298 196873 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@193.86.27.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449143560 968524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449143718 842272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449144777 984077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449144844 142053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449145182 644855 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1449145483 83845 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449145569 89047 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1449145674 431188 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:HelloWorld14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45760&oldid=20240 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+99) 10 < 1449145679 562176 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :howdoesthislook < 1449145690 714759 :howdoesthislook!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1449145702 282378 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:HelloWorld14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45761&oldid=45760 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+109) 10 < 1449145950 112501 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: FLOWERING CHICKEN < 1449146084 917878 :MDream!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDude < 1449146226 808278 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07LLL14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45762&oldid=37359 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+9) 10 < 1449147028 749308 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449148192 865153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449148337 720783 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1449148345 719984 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1449148418 968581 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449148497 206055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1449148789 980186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449148795 354929 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is with this connection today? < 1449149009 819779 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@2a02:2c40:400::1:6e46 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449149101 176422 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: freenode troubles maybe? < 1449149105 713619 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449149192 763870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449149204 113887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird, the Internet connection generally doesn't drop < 1449149211 520570 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my client thinks it has for some reason and disconnects < 1449149220 841362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then when I /reconnect it often (but not always) reconnects almost instantly < 1449150931 613997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449151055 860259 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449151083 856493 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1449151123 728937 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION now back on his own computer, and Windows 8...
< 1449151299 502970 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1449151304 626809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you see the esolangs I posted recently? < 1449151333 689829 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not _very_ recently, been thinking a bit about 3SP < 1449151438 625553 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1449151475 430213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a construction for cyclic tag in 3SP, but I haven't tested it because it's actually surprisingly hard to get it to produce output without very repetitive programs < 1449151606 122537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I got sidetracked trying to create a version of cyclic tag with multithreading library support < 1449151610 430937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*multithreading and library support < 1449151661 415563 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Three Star Programmer14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45763&oldid=45747 5* 03Ais523 5* (-178) 10/* External resources */ remove the minimal interp because I overwrote it by mistake; if anyone needs a copy ask me for one < 1449151679 946675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I tried to write an efficient 3SP interp (which is now on the wiki) and spent some time getting the C compiler to generate the fastest possible asm for it < 1449151724 239239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I decided that it was ugly to have a separate IP and data pointer, so I invented the concept of a ZISC, and then from there stumbled Last ReSort, and from there stumbled The Amnesiac From Minsk < 1449151739 802729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although those two languages were created concurrently, and have inspirations from all over the place < 1449151801 226622 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... I would expect three star programmer would be hard to program < 1449151823 738817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I decided that three star programmer was too easy ;-) < 1449151845 212862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449151863 954985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449151902 165442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH Last ReSort may be too hard, but at least I'm about halfway through The Amensiac From Minsk's levels (Last ReSort is level 4; I've completed level 2 and feel like I have a decent handle on what level 3 is like) < 1449151922 584235 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I just say that I appreciate the punny names? < 1449152161 407649 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hehe, "halfway through" < 1449152164 864779 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't really work like that < 1449152193 450975 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, they might simply not be Turing complete. < 1449152207 273126 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND WHAT'S THE CHANCES OF THAT < 1449152216 551342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: sometimes I have huge trouble naming esolangs, but it's rare < 1449152244 468351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I try to make good ones < 1449152256 996549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I was surprised that no other esolang name starts with "The" and a space (and only one other starts with "The" full stop) < 1449152274 932905 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, that is surprising, yeah < 1449152290 316510 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for me, I should work on documenting those Amycus variants more properly. < 1449152297 4978 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're interesting. < 1449152304 919688 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1449152540 566467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: at first I thought they might be < 1449152562 478079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I managed to mould the language into something vaguely resembling actual computation (The Amnesiac From Minsk level 4) < 1449152594 11634 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular you can easily just use sets of three adjacent counters to implement an arbitrary Minsky machine for any finite length of time, but then bad undefined critical things start happenin when you run out of padding < 1449152756 222440 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but "for any finite length of time" doesn't really convince me when there's an exponential blowup in the translation so you do way more work if you translate than if you just run the original Minsky machine. < 1449152764 682530 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy to get contradictory results that way. < 1449152829 500749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh, definitely, I'm not claiming that's a TCness proof < 1449152843 101124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it makes you want to look for one < 1449152856 411810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a much higher level of computation than, say, Xigxag's ever been shown to be capable of < 1449152867 757029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Xigxag is my go-to example of "almost certainly not TC but nobody knows how to prove it") < 1449152899 251192 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1449152911 398443 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that one < 1449153074 401342 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking a bit of Amycus without rule 0 and 2. That's definitely not Turing-complete, in fact it can be evaluated for any program and input in a double-exponential time or something like that, < 1449153111 101767 :jaboja!~jaboja@erw208.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1449153113 954282 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe in some tetrated time or something, I dunno. < 1449153137 857754 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's still the question of whether it can do meaningful computation, and of what class, or instead you have to do more computation when translating than what it does. < 1449153223 750989 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least if you represent program and input as nested lists, not as numbers. < 1449153365 725441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449153443 904762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449153651 17840 :Welo!~hato@546A4E77.cm-12-3b.dynamic.ziggo.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1449153931 180282 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242512118.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have invented the craziest breakfast drink. It is made by pouring boiling expresso slowly over cold milk. the two liquids form two umixing layers. when drunk, you drink it quickly so the cold milk flows over your tongue with hot expresso on top, thus you don't burn your tongue. < 1449154163 680247 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: "craziest" is hard to claim < 1449154171 817680 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1449154391 89145 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read that as "when [you are] drunk" rather than "when consumed" < 1449154487 884110 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@2a02:2c40:400::1:6e46 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1449154600 974913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it sounds a lot like the sort of thing people will hope will act as a hangover cure < 1449154887 331718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449154963 931796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449155007 134304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : We crashed MODO. It started re-creating the game state from the beginning of the game over and over again. Looped for awhile until we just gave up and I conceded. xD ← so that's what happens if you set up a loop that makes infinitely many tokens < 1449155018 893889 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this doesn't speak well for our attempts to run programs on it < 1449155047 818544 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: a non-interruptible one? < 1449155069 64142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that particular one was a) interruptible and b) not even technically infinite < 1449155078 743847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doubled the number of tokens each turn, IIRC < 1449155089 991786 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only doubled? :-) < 1449155105 548735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's all that Magic Online needed to crash :-) < 1449155191 649865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1449155249 68211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449155292 608084 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't there some creature, possibly in Future Sight, that doubled every three turns? < 1449155369 647683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :chronozoa, perhaps? < 1449155389 768853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty hard to keep it alive long enough to start going exponential, though < 1449155408 590628 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I figured that < 1449155420 687413 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's in Planar Chaos. no wonder I didn't find it. < 1449155471 22147 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need two Paradox Hazes on yourself if you wanted it to double every turn. < 1449156104 475235 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449156183 994887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449156456 276809 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Albedo 5* 10New user account < 1449156712 912263 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449156879 579079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449157782 869244 :aloril_!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw1-54fa3f-129.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1449157860 73606 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw1-54fa3f-129.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1449158455 728969 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449158538 863027 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1449158827 766097 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1449158842 966322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449158944 135791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449159206 887636 :jaboja!~jaboja@erw208.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1449161573 927509 :aretecode!~aretecode@104.156.228.96 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449161708 581537 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/65641/the-versatile-integer-printer i don't even < 1449161936 990304 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-106-73.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1449162065 790355 :propumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin NICK :copumpkin < 1449162165 175234 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.175 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1449162189 796279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449162209 167369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449162397 938312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: it's basically a polyglot challenge < 1449162415 352608 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a crazy one at that < 1449162510 699486 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gxjfgbxepovnhhqn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1449162626 543714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about the simplest polyglot challenge you could come up with, isn't it? < 1449162678 629630 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it puts an emphasis on coming up with clever polyglot expressions over polyglot "statements"/completely independent code < 1449162703 66493 :spiette!~spiette@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449163178 14165 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you point me on a description on how to write HTML documents with MathML content that also has custom fallback HTML content for when MathML isn't supported, without client-side scripting? < 1449163197 570593 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's probably some simple way for this. < 1449163431 447744 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a bonus, how to do it if the non-MathML browser might have no CSS support, nor support for the HTML attribute hidden. This may be impossible. < 1449163505 743206 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably is < 1449163526 110045 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But with CSS allowed, there is probably some easy way, possibly built into the design of MathML. < 1449163561 689718 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, the equivalent of a NOSCRIPT tag, which is hidden if mathml is supported, or some way in CSS to mark something as hidden if mathml is supported. < 1449163593 992971 :spiette!~spiette@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449163626 256371 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's impossible, I might try to make two versions of each HTML page, one with MathML and one without, but that would suck for the users. < 1449163644 995188 :jaboja!~jaboja@erw208.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1449163696 174392 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like it might require JS < 1449163719 274263 :blackcat-783!~blackcat-@ns1.blackcatz.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1449163978 416076 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if there's no builtin mechanism, there's probably a nonportable hack for this. < 1449163989 570429 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I hope there's a designed way. < 1449164031 803145 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1449164288 989861 :blackcat-783!~blackcat-@ns1.blackcatz.org QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1449164624 156564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449164796 868410 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449165131 104648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are wiki dumps/backups available anywhere? < 1449165133 649331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like one for offline reading < 1449165139 46167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fizzie?) < 1449165145 898491 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: of the esowiki? < 1449165150 836836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1449165160 18483 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have one. < 1449165197 636470 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I download some sites I consider valuable and likely to disappear forever, but esowiki isn't one of those. < 1449165202 256561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an old one but am not sure where I got it from < 1449165218 252127 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm downloading some images from some site for such purposes right now.) < 1449165229 312928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, there are instructions linked from the main paeg < 1449165231 623282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*main page < 1449165238 986636 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea if they still work < 1449165297 634882 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The dump thing might still be working; I think we did migrate it. < 1449165334 458315 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, I'll give it a go once zsync's finished installing, then < 1449165338 444299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like that's how I got my current dump < 1449165347 286660 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see shell scripts next to it containing zsync commands < 1449165380 696751 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1449165381 209553 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you know anything about mathml? < 1449165393 170034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very much at all, sadly < 1449165394 944518 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1449165398 293 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, maybe you were here when I asked that < 1449165417 502396 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1449165425 948806 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.... maybe I should ask David Madore, he might be kind enough to point me to the right direction. I'll try some more searching first though. < 1449165482 364021 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The dump .xml.gz and .xml.zsync files have a last-modified timestamp of today, so I think they're current. < 1449165506 176283 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well zsync's running now < 1449165519 812994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the connection speed is changing more or less at random < 1449165525 956877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes single-digits kbps, sometimes three-digit < 1449165537 30340 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449165595 963635 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1449165614 998622 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are you downloading esowiki? < 1449165636 296741 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1449165652 428712 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, I admit I do also download some websites that I don't think will disappear. That can be still useful, for local viewing and searching. < 1449165667 70475 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But downloading ones that I fear could disappear is also important. < 1449165675 872833 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed < 1449165680 858765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, that's the main reason I wanted it < 1449165702 91430 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, there's at least one website that I've downloaded because it has valuable information presented badly, but I could improve its presentation and make a usable mirror. < 1449165743 505942 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you need help in mediawiki automation, including batch editing, I may be able to help in that, although I think you already know a lot about it. < 1449165757 988572 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :batch editing is something that we rarely need < 1449165767 220861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the special case of spam cleanup, we used to need, but I'm pretty fast at that < 1449165797 618843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and go it < 1449165798 898666 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1449165811 167296 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449165836 790313 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. I did batch editing only once so far, and it's more like batch replacing pages with newly formatted versions with the same content from the same source without using the previous content of the mediawiki pages. < 1449165895 186241 :SirCmpwn!~sircmpwn@irc.sircmpwn.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449165902 437330 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have more ideas (if I have time), but more batch querying than batch editing. < 1449165920 864809 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1449166063 214258 :pdxleif!~pdxleif@ec2-54-68-166-10.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449166098 659222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also used to run a bot on Wikipedia < 1449166146 670805 :pdxleif!~pdxleif@ec2-54-68-166-10.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1449166394 739195 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Blood6od Hm.. It sounds an interpreter would be easiest? <-- there _are_ exceptions, for example it's easier to compile brainfuck to C than to interpret it in C < 1449166394 938153 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1449166449 832719 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1449166463 143224 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, and it's easier to compile C to C with cat than to interpret C < 1449166491 498576 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1449166657 828905 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-68.dynamic.asdk12.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1449167040 79330 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1449167136 411420 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell tswett The ordinal numbers are keeping me awake. <-- try attaching them to sheep hth < 1449167136 573305 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1449167323 675086 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-68.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION begins a slow clap for oerjan.
< 1449167397 425061 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1449167418 229815 :SirCmpwn!~sircmpwn@irc.sircmpwn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1449167489 102870 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-68.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So when I make my own little AI using neural networking... < 1449167508 235914 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-68.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm probably going to give it an external calculator it can use for doing rapid calculation. < 1449167510 142994 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell tswett i'm not convinced your Z(a,b) defines an ordinal number for a > 0. it seems to me that Z(0,b) = b for any infinite ordinal b, so there _are_ no larger ordinals for a > 0 to choose from. < 1449167510 305089 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1449167519 33218 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-68.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I am a kind and loving god. < 1449167803 752849 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell tswett hm wait, Z(0,b) = b+1. < 1449167803 914925 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1449168730 164581 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell tswett oh hm i see, when you fixed it to "not equal to" it makes more sense. because Z(0,...) leaves out all the limit ordinals, so Z(1,...) gets some of those. < 1449168730 326480 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1449168827 551125 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell tswett except i fail to see how there's anything left for Z(2,...). < 1449168827 750266 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1449168998 913045 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell tswett i really should learn not to @tell until i've read through the whole log discussion... < 1449168999 74898 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1449169235 51051 :mtve!~mtve@10130.x.rootbsd.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1449169271 639495 :mtve!~mtve@10130.x.rootbsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449169833 716561 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-68.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Polynomial neural networking: Neural Networking using polynomials instead of floating-point numbers. < 1449169907 565535 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-68.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, even a Stringy Neural Network would be cool < 1449170144 933857 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07TypeNet (Python library)14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45764 5* 03Hppavilion1 5* (+319) 10Created Page (WIP) < 1449170298 59071 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Template:WIP14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45765&oldid=44862 5* 03Hppavilion1 5* (+29) 10Not always languages < 1449170361 34124 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1449170574 953218 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1449170683 138854 :spiette!~spiette@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449172220 855904 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1449172236 885127 :Welo!~hato@546A4E77.cm-12-3b.dynamic.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1449172853 123501 :^^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449172893 301341 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1449172940 955368 :^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449174071 669770 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1449174593 842921 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-68.dynamic.asdk12.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1449174662 750987 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-68.dynamic.asdk12.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1449174752 343705 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: Rebooting < 1449174851 130922 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1449174995 143026 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449176318 788828 :spiette!~spiette@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449176344 144220 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: only issue I had with befunge-98 was when it came to looping, to get another character. Other than that, got a working ASCII > cube notation < 1449176399 805503 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-68.dynamic.asdk12.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1449176402 112898 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what goes < 1449177995 748115 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84767-aztw28-2-0-cust223.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1449178358 191954 :jaboja64!~jaboja@esd102.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1449178585 297101 :jaboja!~jaboja@erw208.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1449178609 231847 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-vcknuvfslhmejfdn QUIT :Excess Flood < 1449178746 684394 :Lord_of_-!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-ahxdbhlqrailevvo JOIN :#esoteric < 1449178769 245463 :jaboja64!~jaboja@esd102.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl NICK :jaboja < 1449178794 7951 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449179236 109359 :augur!~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1449179284 173642 :augur!~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449179454 389816 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: Do you have anymore languages to suggest? < 1449179876 610530 :^v^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449179955 873015 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: Well if you could implement it in Brainfuck that'd be amazing xD < 1449179969 967290 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: Thue is fun, but a little too tarpitty < 1449179975 584999 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I advise you make a language < 1449180018 2515 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't too difficult to make a standard-awesome esolang. A godly esolang is a little more difficult < 1449180027 196932 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :("Godly" including Befunge, Unlambda, etc.) < 1449180049 666196 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'm at the level of making a language yet, I'd like to work with existing ones a bit more to learn what I'd like to make, ya know? My goal honestly is implementing it in a bunch of fun or hard languages (assembly is a plan, definitely). < 1449180053 145384 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: I could guide you through the process < 1449180061 590640 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :github.com/b1ood6od/rubiks < 1449180062 768634 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nonsense! EVERYONE is at that level xD < 1449180065 258006 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is as far as I am. < 1449180100 124802 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: If you implement it in Malebolge (Unshackled?), we will all worship you as our Messiah. < 1449180132 856137 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never heard of it (I'm still new to esoteric stuff, first time I used one was two days ago when I made it in LOLCODE) < 1449180133 364992 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: The interesting thing about esolangs is you need not have advanced knowledge of language design to make one; just knowing the basics is enough. < 1449180154 255433 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: It's one of the big 5. Just check the wiki. < 1449180176 167002 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's spelled Malbolge < 1449180189 504717 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Named after Malebolge, a circle of hell in Dante's Inferno) < 1449180200 141635 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or part of one of the circles; I think it's the one where frauds go) < 1449180215 51831 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH, yeah I remember skimming that one. < 1449180223 321105 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1449180231 883980 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dare you to try to implement anything it it xD < 1449180245 267642 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: I had an idea that might be of interest to you if you like encryption < 1449180273 352954 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm definitely interested in it, as I plan to join the navy in about a year to go into cryptology. < 1449180288 15589 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a good goal < 1449180306 592264 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I call it "Executable Encryption" (not to be confused with encrypting an executable file) < 1449180318 841718 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, you encode plaintext by converting it into a program written in an Esolang. < 1449180353 878127 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only way to access the plaintext is by executing the cyphertext. It has a series of conditions that must be satisfied, such as entering the correct password, that are literally built-in to the program < 1449180391 750282 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The language itself is nigh-impossible to comprehend; it's a fungeoid that works in upwards of 50 different dimensions. < 1449180425 700742 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can't only not read the cyphertext; you can't even see it for what it really is. < 1449180467 885550 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: Only problem is it's so complicated that if there are any ways to bypass it, it'd be hard to tell unless you were a genius, which you have to assume the person trying to break your encryption is under the Laws of Cryptography < 1449180525 675819 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more of an idea than a usable thing; but it's cool < 1449180529 610305 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: What do you think? < 1449180586 407100 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's, complicated. Lol. But see pretty epic. A fungeoid is a program with pointers, right? I've yet to grasp the meaning of "dimension" with them though. < 1449180638 326990 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another idea is to make a computer program generate a partially-random language by example, that is, it creates a bunch of files and tells the computer that it means the same thing as one in the language of the message trying to be sent < 1449180676 877845 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, it use a Google Translate-like software (which learns by comparing two documents with the same thing in different languages) to translate the message into the randomly-generated language. < 1449180718 459388 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you transmit the message and the key used to trigger the pseudo-random number generator that produced the original language. The other person uses google translate in reverse to detranslate < 1449180726 195704 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boom. Modernized Navajo Code Talkers. < 1449180738 226577 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: Did you read the page on Fungoids on the wiki? < 1449180790 989174 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Fungeoids < 1449180795 109263 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od? < 1449180812 815804 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1449180862 970839 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks somebody has claimed to solve the „Turing-Test“ this way. But probably Alan would have disallowed People literally coming from oppsite Corners of one of the available Earths.
< 1449180931 660836 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, the way "dimension" works in it is that the language is an array of instructions instead of a list of instructions and some flow to repeat. The IP ("instruction pointer") is the same as in a normal language (points to the current list index), /except/ that it has a sense of "delta" that tells it which instruction to move along. The "dimension" comes from the fact that the IP has a location that is expressed as an ordered pair < 1449180931 834024 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of just a number. < 1449180940 114782 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that helps, B1ood6od < 1449180990 608855 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm in another app reading up on them. Thanks for the description. < 1449181035 408095 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :YW < 1449181163 178415 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45766&oldid=45650 5* 03Hppavilion1 5* (+624) 10Basic Operators < 1449181210 268720 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: I highly recommend you develop a language though; it'll give you a better understanding of what you're doing. Also, I like new languages. < 1449181233 533190 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it doesn't take advanced knowledge, just a basic understanding of CS and knowing at least one normal language < 1449181252 472274 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What all will be required? I'm sure it takes some planning. < 1449181263 827261 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: Depends on how you do it. < 1449181284 737851 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For starters, do you want your language to be Imperative or Declarative? Or a weird mix? < 1449181304 140679 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Imperative is the easiest) < 1449181356 567381 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Usually. If you happen to know of a powerful-and-simple-but-as-of-yet-unused computational model, then Declarative can be easy) < 1449181394 49797 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1449181407 921105 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Derobos 5* 10New user account < 1449181424 93240 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1449181494 998579 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1449181531 459966 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45767&oldid=45175 5* 03Derobos 5* (+779) 10/* C */ < 1449181546 445905 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1449181585 323606 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45768&oldid=45767 5* 03Derobos 5* (-12) 10/* C */ < 1449181591 50923 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1449181640 475506 :B1ood6od!~B1ood6od@cpe-69-76-41-135.ma.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woops, internet went crazy. < 1449181734 149279 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :During the Times it had not been crazy it was probably still called the ArpaNet. < 1449182126 76397 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1449182724 856927 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PART #esoteric :"WeeChat 1.1.1" < 1449183345 672165 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Control Flow14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45769 5* 03Hppavilion1 5* (+5762) 10Created Page < 1449183667 20396 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Control Flow14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45770&oldid=45769 5* 03Hppavilion1 5* (+471) 10/* Esoteric Things */ DLUF and For..else/While..else < 1449183712 397680 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: Can you think of any Esoteric Control Flow, out of curiousity? That'd be a GREAT thing to put in a language < 1449183915 18412 :lleu!~gnomebad@cpc15-croy20-2-0-cust489.croy.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449183915 267867 :lleu!~gnomebad@cpc15-croy20-2-0-cust489.croy.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host < 1449183915 429847 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu JOIN :#esoteric < 1449184069 201332 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Control Flow14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45771&oldid=45770 5* 03Hppavilion1 5* (+637) 10/* Higher-level Things */ Procedures, subroutines, coroutines, case construct < 1449184245 300561 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B1ood6od: I'm making a language called Wybe :) < 1449184368 448120 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1449184377 60016 :lleu!~gnomebad@cpc15-croy20-2-0-cust489.croy.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449184377 345359 :lleu!~gnomebad@cpc15-croy20-2-0-cust489.croy.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host < 1449184377 507489 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu JOIN :#esoteric < 1449184398 34593 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's stacky and designed to be usable. Its current purpose is an embedded language used for connecting APIs to each other, e.g. SAPIing Skype (making you computer read skype messages out loud) < 1449184498 392261 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-106-73.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1449184711 62973 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07MATL14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45772&oldid=45759 5* 03Luis Mendo 5* (-1192) 10/* Specification */ < 1449184739 90317 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1449184897 303012 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07MATL14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45773&oldid=45772 5* 03Luis Mendo 5* (+0) 10/* Compiler */ < 1449185692 360833 :lleu!~gnomebad@cpc15-croy20-2-0-cust489.croy.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1449185692 523059 :lleu!~gnomebad@cpc15-croy20-2-0-cust489.croy.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host < 1449185692 523120 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu JOIN :#esoteric < 1449185916 502767 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1449185994 64139 :aretecode!~aretecode@104.156.228.96 QUIT :Quit: Toodaloo < 1449186280 507674 :Lord_of_-!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-ahxdbhlqrailevvo QUIT :Excess Flood < 1449186456 526949 :Lord_of_-!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-rbiyezatcoivokml JOIN :#esoteric < 1449186684 241739 :Lord_of_-!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-rbiyezatcoivokml QUIT :Excess Flood < 1449186801 799114 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things I am irrationally scared of: the Bronze Age collapse < 1449186816 606662 :Lord_of_-!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-mffdffzlasevhhtw JOIN :#esoteric < 1449186823 869575 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Is that where someone fucks something up and we all revert to the bronze age? < 1449186832 314142 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or was that the collapse of the bronze age? < 1449186839 174046 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second one < 1449186856 905104 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is that where you collapse after a heart attack in your Bronze Years (similar to your Golden Years) < 1449186870 274218 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that one is definitely scary. < 1449186870 918662 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still the second one < 1449186896 128316 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, society in the near east and eastern meditteranean suddenly collapsed and no-one knows why < 1449186920 609557 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1449186933 472358 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, recently? < 1449186936 692837 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1449186937 961810 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1449186940 36574 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second one < 1449186945 20167 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Why? < 1449186946 73012 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1449186955 620473 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's terrifying that something like that can happen < 1449186974 685666 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well of course it can heppen < 1449186985 894908 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My entire evil plan revolves around that being a possibility