00:04:39 <int-e> . o O ( `le/rn inquisition/The Spanish Inquisition? ¯\(°_o)/¯ )
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00:24:10 <int-e> hmm, but is it really good?
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00:25:28 <hppavilion[1]> What elements should I use in Stack Magic? I want them to be real elements, and I want 12. I have 4: Hydrogen, Iron, Lead, and Gold
00:26:35 <int-e> Distance from Earth? Also, planethood.
00:27:05 <\oren\> copper, nickel, silver, mercury
00:27:53 <\oren\> sulphur, aluminium, carbon,
00:28:09 <int-e> (Just because I can never recall the english name of that element.)
00:28:32 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of copper, I used silicon. Silicon will be used for control or something.
00:29:03 <mauris> re: the question mark thing
00:29:06 <hppavilion[1]> I'll replace Plutonium with Sulphur, and Osmium with Arsenic
00:29:19 <mauris> i'd probably use it for sentences like this?
00:29:45 <int-e> do you have any noble gases?
00:30:36 <\oren\> argon, neon, krypton, xenon radon
00:31:40 <\oren\> wolfram is a good element
00:31:41 <int-e> \oren\: Yeah, Helium
00:31:59 <int-e> the English call it Tungsten
00:32:21 <\oren\> i know, but then the symbol W doesn't make sense
00:32:23 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I think it's called Tungsten here too, formerly Wolfram
00:34:48 <int-e> copper could be useful for fighting crime
00:35:37 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ChIv8ZjIY35WsQleHyLcmt-q5buNlPFTg_iAvmj7b_k/edit?usp=sharing
00:35:45 <int-e> "Copper, British or Australian slang for a Police officer, hence the North American 'cop'"
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00:36:29 <int-e> (I believe it derives from copper helmets that the british police officers used to wear, but didn't verify.)
00:36:42 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: But should I use copper or should I use tin?
00:36:54 <hppavilion[1]> Or should I replace some other element with copper?
00:37:35 <int-e> well, tin sounds kind of boring
00:38:22 <hppavilion[1]> I can represent a single element with an ASCII Character
00:40:13 <hppavilion[1]> Also, I'm calling Tungsten Wolfram because it sounds cooler
00:40:49 <hppavilion[1]> Though really, I'm likely going to wind up storing in strings, so to be fair it doesn't really matter
00:42:11 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I think you need some sort of semantics :P
00:43:12 <hppavilion[1]> And what should the manifestations be? Currently I just have the 5 states of matter
00:56:04 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Next, to figure out what's done with these materials.
01:03:04 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Do you have any sense of realistic quantities? I'm making recipies, and need help figuring out the material cost of recipies; e.g. how much bronze is required to make armour
01:06:56 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness
01:07:01 <HackEgo> <oerjan> YOU are out of order.
01:07:43 <HackEgo> >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[--------------------------------------<[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<>++++++++++<[->>>+<<<]>>>[<<[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]>-]<<[-]<[-<+>]<>,----------]<>>+<<[->><[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>>>++++++++++<<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>>++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]
01:13:39 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: As in the type of number? That's a tough question...
01:13:40 <int-e> I'll just refuse to be well-ordered.
01:14:55 <hppavilion[1]> OK, so currently the design spec says you can make armour by making a mold for that type of armour (somehow) then having it on the stack above at least enough of the materials used, then mold furnacing it (by having the mold furnace be the selected tool)
01:15:33 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: http://countyoursheep.keenspot.com/d/20030611.html seems relevant (good night)
01:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> You can also make an obsidian knife by hitting a piece of obsidian with a hammer then having stack: obsidian shard, string, hilt and using the "hands" tool
01:16:06 <hppavilion[1]> This is all text-based, mind you, and you have to juggle a stack to play
01:16:31 <hppavilion[1]> There'll also be a few Alchemical tools used for constructing magical items
01:17:51 <hppavilion[1]> Not to mention that all commands entered are sent through a semi-thue system. Yeah.
01:21:25 <tswett> Hey everyone, look at this file I created.
01:21:27 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ yellow \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort
01:23:04 <tswett> I know what to put in the file!
01:23:09 <tswett> Unos momentos por favor.
01:25:00 <tswett> I'm so mature and whatnot.
01:27:38 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to make a small text game based on stacks and semi-thue systems. But I don't know what I'm doing xD
01:30:14 <hppavilion[1]> How about... Earth, Fire, Water, Air, Wood, Metal, Void
01:30:28 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Does that look like a good combination of elements?
01:31:17 <tswett> I don't think I can answer that. But I *like* that combination of elements.
01:34:37 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I think I should probably add one more so I can associate every element with an opposition
01:35:26 <tswett> Earth and air seem to kind of be considered opposites, and likewise fire and water.
01:35:36 <tswett> Wood and metal are kind of "opposite-like".
01:35:48 <tswett> Organic versus inorganic.
01:35:54 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What should be the inverse of void then? Light?
01:36:05 <tswett> Just what do you mean by "void"?
01:36:29 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Nothingness; the complete absence of anything, including possibly spacetime itself.
01:37:19 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, oooh, you start with a semi-randomized amount of each element and have to work from there
01:37:21 <tswett> If void is the absence of spacetime, then maybe the opposite of that is the presence of spacetime.
01:37:29 <tswett> "The fabric of spacetime", so to speak.
01:37:34 <tswett> I mean, I'm kind of making up BS here.
01:37:45 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: True, but that doesn't seem particularly useful xD.
01:38:02 <hppavilion[1]> To get more fire, you must burn wood. To get more wood, you must plant trees.
01:38:04 <tswett> But I think that thinking of space itself as being made of something is kind of a cool thought.
01:38:49 <hppavilion[1]> If you have only a bit of wood and need more fire NOW, you might just have to sacrifice future usage of wood in alchemy in order to survive in the short-term
01:41:26 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Well, if you inverse combine air and void (just making up possible mechanics here), for example, you could possibly suck the air out of the atmosphere.
01:43:49 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Do you think you could be any help with creating combinations for spells?
01:55:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45685&oldid=45684 * 162.231.140.49 * (+7)
02:08:07 <tswett> It's tough to get people to collaborate with you, isn't it?
02:08:52 <tswett> I've... I wouldn't say I've given up getting people to collaborate with me.
02:08:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seed]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45686&oldid=17635 * 162.231.140.49 * (+254)
02:09:39 <tswett> But I usually assume that if I want some project to get done, I'll probably have to do at least, like, 85% of the work or whatever.
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02:11:03 <tswett> But I can also count on being able to get the occasional bit of advice.
02:11:18 <tswett> As for helping create combinations for spells...
02:11:35 <tswett> I don't really know the context here. I'd have to learn more about your ideas.
02:12:01 <tswett> You know, you do have a lot of interesting ideas.
02:13:53 <tswett> The one that *I* remember finding most interesting is the language where the syntax forms a graph instead of just a tree.
02:19:40 <HackEgo> <oerjan> YOU are out of order.
02:24:56 <hppavilion[1]> OK, there are 3 ways of storing data: The inventory stack, the accumulator, and the satchel, together called the Stacchel
02:25:36 <hppavilion[1]> You can manipulate a stack normally (though $ for drop actually puts something in your satchel and : for dup takes something out of your satchel based on the ToS)
02:25:51 <hppavilion[1]> And to combine items, you must ^ (accumulate) into an already-filled accumulator
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02:55:15 <hppavilion[1]> Two new elements I'm considering adding: Information and Obfuscation
02:59:09 <hppavilion[1]> Though you can also do verbose commands if it suits you better, which it probably does
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03:44:17 <quintopia> what documentation do you have so far?
03:57:11 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I have a document specifying the elements, an overview of the gameplay, a list of commands, and am just now starting on the recipes.
03:57:30 <hppavilion[1]> It's a quite simple game for now, but it might get more advanced
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04:06:43 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: zzo38: It's a game that works on a stack-based language, though one of the beautiful things is that it need not be typed by hand: One can engineer a client that does it for you
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04:09:01 <hppavilion[1]> (Unless it's a REALLY high-level client, in which case it's no longer a fun game)
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04:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> (If it indeed turns out to be a fun game in the first place)
04:19:18 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering uses stack too
04:21:25 <quintopia> what about magic the gathering card deck of programming language?
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04:55:58 <lambdabot> tswett said 5h 41m 15s ago: So can you give a counterexample to my assertion that if a function is differentiable at a point, then it's also differentiable on a disc surrounding that point?
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04:57:30 <oerjan> @tell tswett i already did, and mauris repeated it when you saw it.
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05:39:38 <oerjan> @tell tswett <tswett> I don't think that works. I think in the complex numbers, that's not differentiable at 0. <-- it works if the original function is bounded hth
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05:41:25 <oerjan> @tell tswett in fact then you don't even need a continuous function to start with
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05:44:14 * oerjan needs to finish learning discussions before sending @tells
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06:54:03 <hppavilion[2]> OK, Perhaps I should add foriegn-language commands to MSM
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07:21:59 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ yellow \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort
07:22:26 <HackEgo> 113500: ASCII text, with very long lines, with CRLF line terminators
07:22:32 <HackEgo> --[------->++<]>-.[->+++<]>.+++++.-----------.+++++++++.+++++++++.+[->+++<]>++.+.--[--->+<]>-.--[->++<]>.--[->++<]>-.+.++[->+++<]>++.+++++.++++++.[->+++++<]>+++.+[--->+<]>+++.++[->+++<]>.>++++++++++.-[->++++<]>-.[->+++<]>.+++++.-----------.+++++++++.+++++++++.+[->+++<]>++.+.--[--->+<]>-.--[->++<]>.--[->++<]>-.+.++[->+++<]>++.+++++.+++++.++++++.[
07:22:56 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness
07:23:05 <HackEgo> a.o: ELF 64-bit LSB relocatable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), not stripped
07:23:17 <HackEgo> import sys \ print(sys.argv)
07:23:45 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access blah*: No such file or directory
07:23:54 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ pas
07:24:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access *la*: No such file or directory
07:24:31 <HackEgo> blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah
07:25:04 <oerjan> `cat blah \ blah \ blah
07:25:12 <oerjan> `rm blah \ blah \ blah
07:25:56 <HackEgo> I 5053 pci_id: con ing! \ I 4681 ehci 0xf43d000:15: regista14: [0xbffff 0xfed nosabled 00-02] Zonseres: brips byted nored) \ W 3654 e8] PGTT ASF! 00f00000003.2: 0x000 - 0000: 00009dbfffec00000: Pround/f1743colled \ I 4076 verse.' \ I 4764 He trusts to you to set them free, \ I 858 your pocket?' he went on, turning to Alice. \ I 898 would be offende
07:26:08 <HackEgo> error.log: ASCII text, with very long lines
07:26:43 <HackEgo> etc/*: ERROR: cannot open `etc/*' (No such file or directory)
07:26:56 <HackEgo> etc \ etc/luarocks \ etc/luarocks/config.lua
07:27:18 <oerjan> `` grep luarocks bin/*
07:27:19 <HackEgo> bin/luarocks:local command_line = require("luarocks.command_line") \ bin/luarocks:program_name = "luarocks" \ bin/luarocks:commands.help = require("luarocks.help") \ bin/luarocks:commands.pack = require("luarocks.pack") \ bin/luarocks:commands.unpack = require("luarocks.unpack") \ bin/luarocks:commands.build = require("luarocks.build") \ bin/luaroc
07:27:46 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quo
07:28:05 <HackEgo> factor \ factor/factor.image
07:28:16 <HackEgo> Binary file bin/units matches
07:28:35 <oerjan> `` grep factor.image bin/*
07:28:45 <FireFly> `hexdump -C factor/factor.image
07:28:46 <HackEgo> hexdump: invalid option -- ' ' \ usage: hexdump [-bcCdovx] [-e fmt] [-f fmt_file] [-n length] \ [-s skip] [file ...] \ hd [-bcdovx] [-e fmt] [-f fmt_file] [-n length] \ [-s skip] [file ...]
07:28:52 <FireFly> `` hexdump -C factor/factor.image
07:28:53 <HackEgo> 00000000 0c 0d 0e 0f 00 00 00 00 04 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| \ 00000010 00 00 5c 2c e1 7f 00 00 e0 fb bb 05 00 00 00 00 |..\,............| \ 00000020 00 f0 11 28 e1 7f 00 00 20 56 f5 00 00 00 00 00 |...(.... V......| \ 00000030 2c f3 65 2c e1 7f 00 00 05 00 5c 2c e1 7f 00 00 |,.e,......\,....| \ 00000040 25 00 5c 2c e1 7
07:29:09 <oerjan> `culprits factor/factor.image
07:29:11 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull sgeo
07:29:36 <FireFly> probably best to keep it for now
07:29:42 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quo
07:30:21 <HackEgo> hello: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, BuildID[sha1]=0x3db23553f95ba53719226a2c73a0ad9d79e975ab, not stripped
07:30:39 <HackEgo> const char main[] = "AXAYAZA[A\\ATX-pppp-0```- ///P^VTXH10XP4>40PZ414>P_\x0f\x05XATASARAQAP\xc3Hello, world!\n";
07:30:45 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ ul.emm
07:31:04 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.p
07:31:30 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `index*': No such file or directory
07:31:49 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ int compare(char *s,char *c){return*c-*s;}int main(){char w[40];int c,i=0;while( \ 1){c=getchar();if(c<=32||c==EOF){qsort(w,i,1,compare);w[i]=0;printf("%s",w);if(c \ ==EOF)break;putchar(c);i=0;}else{w[i++]=c;}}}
07:32:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*sor*: No such file or directory
07:32:21 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.ppy \ script.py \ selflink \ share \ src \ temp
07:32:42 <HackEgo> lib \ lib/frink \ lib/c++decl \ lib/interp \ lib/dcc \ lib/frink.jar \ lib/cdecl \ lib/karma
07:32:50 <HackEgo> MaFV: C source, ASCII text
07:32:54 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ \ int c; \ \ void s() \ { \ unsigned int m = 0xFFFF; \ #define F(m,n,v,c,b) \ \ for (int v = 0; v < 16; v++) { \ \ if ((m & (1 << v)) && (c)) { \ \ unsigned int n = m - (1 << v); \ \ b \ \
07:33:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/MaFV
07:33:42 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/Ma*: No such file or directory
07:34:00 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.ppy \ script.py \ selflink \ share \ src \ temp.o \ test \ test2
07:34:12 <HackEgo> cat: nwzouew: Is a directory
07:35:04 <HackEgo> cat: oerjan: Is a directory
07:35:38 <HackEgo> 1256 ++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>>----.>-.<<++++.>>>++++.<+.++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+.+++.<++++.>>-------------.<<-----.>>-------------------------------------------.>.<<---.<++.-------.>+.<+.+++++.>>>.<<---------.>>++++++++++++.------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<++
07:35:48 <HackEgo> 1110 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>----.>>>-.<++++.<++++.>>+.++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+.>>>---------.<++++.>----.<-----.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------------.>>+.<++.-------.>+.<+.+++++.<.<--------.>++++++++++++.------------.>--------------------------------------------.>------.++.++++++++.<---.+
07:35:57 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.ppy \ script.py \ selflink \ share \ src \ temp.o \ test \ test2 \ testbegin \ testend \ twolines \ Virgolang
07:36:21 <HackEgo> elliott \ a \ b \ c \ d \ e \ f \ g \ h \ i \ j \ k \ l \ m \ n \ o \ p \ q \ r \ s \ t \ u \ v \ w \ x \ y \ z
07:36:33 <HackEgo> cat: real: No such file or directory
07:36:53 <HackEgo> cat: real: No such file or directory
07:37:19 <HackEgo> rev: real: open failed: No such file or directory
07:37:33 <HackEgo> real: broken symbolic link to `wisdom/{the reals}'
07:37:48 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ script.ppy \ script.py \ selflink \ share \ src \ temp.o \ test \ test2 \ testbegin \ testend \ twolines \ Virgolang \ VirgoLang \ Wierd \ wisdom \ w
07:37:59 <HackEgo> for x in users: \ print(t+x)
07:38:12 <HackEgo> users = ['hppavilion1', 'Not ZombieCheney'] \ print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file (If you did it, you are hardcore):' \ for x in users: \ print(x+', ')
07:38:32 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access seflink: No such file or directory
07:38:36 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 3 Jun 12 03:18 selflink
07:38:58 <HackEgo> 0110010000110001100010011001100011110000011100
07:39:23 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ testend \ twolines \ Virgolang \ VirgoLang \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
07:39:49 <HackEgo> cat: Virgolang: Is a directory
07:40:15 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `Wierd': Not a directory
07:40:19 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html> \ <html lang="en" dir="ltr" class="client-nojs"> \ <head> \ <title>Wierd - Esolang</title> \ <meta charset="UTF-8" /> \ <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki 1.20.4" /> \ <link rel="alternate" type="application/x-wiki" title="Edit" href="/w/index.php?title=Wierd&action=edit" /> \ <link rel="edit" title="Edit" href="/w/ind
07:40:35 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
07:40:43 <oerjan> myname: probably a wiki download
07:41:09 <FireFly> Is that used for anything?
07:41:11 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
07:41:57 <oerjan> `` diff {share,src}/hello.c
07:41:58 <HackEgo> 1c1 \ < const short main[] = {18517,58761,49201,49801,49407,51081,3816,0,18432,27749,28524,8236,28535,27762,8548,24074,3762,1295,15536,-207,1295}; \ --- \ > const char main[] = "AXAYAZA[A\\ATX-pppp-0```- ///P^VTXH10XP4>40PZ414>P_\x0f\x05XATASARAQAP\xc3Hello, world!\n";
07:42:33 <oerjan> `` diff {share,src}/hello
07:42:33 <HackEgo> diff: src/hello: No such file or directory
07:42:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/share/radio.php%3Fout%3Dinline%26shuffle%3D1%26limit%3D1%26filter%3D%2AMitamineLab%2A
07:42:44 <HackEgo> ELF............>......@.....@..................@.8..@....................@.......@.....:.......:......... ...................@......@.....$.......$..............Qtd...........................................................GNU.ﲜ@+S
07:43:27 <oerjan> FireFly: share/ is often where i put things from . that i don't want to delete
07:43:36 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ hello.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ ul.emm
07:43:50 <FireFly> I don't see a point in keeping radio* though
07:44:11 <oerjan> `` mv src/hello.c share/hello2.c
07:44:32 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*radio*: No such file or directory
07:45:14 <oerjan> FireFly: anyway, i'm not usually cleaning out other than the top.
07:45:21 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
07:45:30 <FireFly> makes sense, it's mostly /hackenv that matters anyway
07:45:41 <HackEgo> bin/autowelcome:[ "$1" == "on" ] && echo enabled > autowelcome_status; [ "$1" == "off" ] && echo disabled > autowelcome_status; echo "Autowelcome $(cat autowelcome_status)."
07:46:00 <oerjan> shachaf: is there a problem?
07:46:13 <shachaf> Why is autowelcome writing a state file?
07:46:15 <oerjan> `` culprits autowelcome_*
07:46:17 <HackEgo> tswett tswett tswett tswett
07:46:22 <shachaf> That defeats the whole spirit.
07:47:23 <shachaf> Doesn't matter now that it's defeated.
07:47:39 <oerjan> `` mv autowelcome_status share; sed -i 's!autow!share/autow!' bin/autowelcome
07:47:47 <HackEgo> cat: autowelcome_status: No such file or directory \ Autowelcome .
07:48:05 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
07:48:16 <oerjan> `cat autowelcome_status
07:48:45 <HackEgo> [ "$1" == "on" ] && echo enabled > autowelcome_status; [ "$1" == "off" ] && echo disabled > autowelcome_status; echo "Autowelcome $(cat autowelcome_status)."
07:49:10 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's!autow!share/autow!`g' bin/autowelcome
07:49:11 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 21: unknown option to `s'
07:49:19 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's!autow!share/autow!g' bin/autowelcome
07:49:25 <HackEgo> cat: share/autowelcome_status: No such file or directory \ Autowelcome .
07:49:45 <oerjan> `` mv autowelcome_status share
07:49:55 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
07:50:34 <oerjan> short enough. not sure about wisdom.pdf, i doubt it's up to date anyway
07:50:34 <FireFly> `` cat :-( :-D cat dog canary
07:50:35 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `cat :-( :-D cat dog canary '
07:50:50 <FireFly> `` cat :-\( :-D cat dog canary
07:50:50 <HackEgo> ☹ \ ☺ \ Meow~~ >^.^< \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ Spjætt!
07:50:55 <oerjan> canary is essential. the others are jokes.
07:51:12 <FireFly> oh, canary doesn't say 'chirp chirp' anymore
07:51:19 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan ais523 shachaf ais523 oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover elliott oerjan shachaf elliott ais523 elliott
07:51:20 <oerjan> it's been changes a lot
07:51:31 <FireFly> I don't know why I expected anything else
07:53:21 <oerjan> FireFly: it's even been a directory, which is why `revert now gives a (harmless) error message...
07:53:51 <oerjan> unfortunately changing it back didn't fix it, the error applies when it has _ever_ been a directory...
07:54:07 <oerjan> fizzie has been supposed to fix it for a long time.
07:54:46 <FireFly> oerjan: 'fix' as in purge the history of it ever being a directory, essentially?
07:55:15 <oerjan> FireFly: not necessarily. he (or Gregor`) could also fix the actual script, i assume...
07:55:41 <oerjan> otherwise it'd just break again the next time someone does it...
07:57:14 <HackEgo> cat: complaints: No such file or directory
07:57:20 <HackEgo> Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing
07:57:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
07:58:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: that's not an error message, it's an actual complaint that it looks like a directory hth
07:58:14 <oerjan> (i believe zzo38 made it)
07:58:33 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] int-e mroman_ mroman_ mroman_
07:58:41 <hppavilion[2]> I should file a complaint about it being confusing.
07:58:54 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
07:58:57 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bi/*comp*: No such file or directory
07:59:54 <shachaf> `` hg log Complaints | grep summary:
07:59:55 <HackEgo> summary: <hppavilion[1]> complain Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing \ summary: <int-e> ` true > Complaints \ summary: <mroman_> echo > Complaints \ summary: <mroman_> complain Bye \ summary: <mroman_> echo Hi >> Complaints
08:00:17 <hppavilion[2]> `complain The above complaint looks like an error message, but it's actually a complaint
08:00:19 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
08:00:30 <HackEgo> Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing \ The above complaint looks like an error message, but it's actually a complaint
08:00:50 <HackEgo> bin/complain \ bin/complaints
08:01:41 <FireFly> Better not move the database
08:01:43 <HackEgo> bin/complaints \ bin/complain
08:02:04 <FireFly> hppavilion[2]: word count (or line count, in this case)
08:02:05 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
08:02:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ke: not found
08:02:52 <hppavilion[2]> Huh. I would think any two-letter combination would be a linux command that does exactly what you expect
08:02:56 <oerjan> `` mv Complaints Complaints.mp3; sed -i 's!Complaints!Complaints.mp3!' bin/complain
08:03:10 <oerjan> i think that should fix all the outstanding complaints hth
08:03:27 <shachaf> oerjan: you forgot to fix bin/complaints hth
08:03:35 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
08:03:48 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's!Complaints!Complaints.mp3!' bin/complaints
08:04:16 <HackEgo> Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing \ The above complaint looks like an error message, but it's actually a complaint
08:04:19 <hppavilion[2]> `complain now the former complaints make no sense because the complaints file was moved
08:04:21 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
08:04:27 <HackEgo> cat: complaints: No such file or directory
08:04:41 <HackEgo> Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing \ The above complaint looks like an error message, but it's actually a complaint \ now the former complaints make no sense because the complaints file was moved
08:05:05 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
08:05:17 <shachaf> oerjan: why would you have a directory called Complaints.mp3 tmns
08:06:17 <oerjan> `complain The complaints above are not using periods properly.
08:06:19 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
08:07:10 <FireFly> This makes it lose its charm
08:08:36 <FireFly> I would think `complaints is supposed to number the Complaints, not the Complaints.mp3
08:10:10 <shachaf> i,i ln -s Complaints.mp3 Complaints && wc -l Complaints && rm Complaints
08:10:42 <shachaf> i,i mv Complaints 'Complaints filed'
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08:12:49 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
08:13:30 <HackEgo> "Spock, did you see the looks on their faces?" \ "Yes, Captain, a sort of vacant contentment."
08:14:06 <HackEgo> It takes strength to admit your own weaknesses.
08:14:07 <FireFly> I'm not sure what set of fortunes HackEgo has
08:14:28 <HackEgo> cat "$(find good -type f | shuf -n1)"
08:14:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: tswett already did, he got a bout of bad conscience
08:14:49 * FireFly . o O ( find "$0" -type f )
08:14:55 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, how about a `sin command that randomly selects a deadly sin from a directory? Sort of like evil, but we really just dump things we hate people doing. You know what? Nevermind.
08:15:04 <HackEgo> cat: bin/sin: No such file or directory
08:15:14 <oerjan> FireFly: `evil doesn't work the same
08:15:28 <FireFly> Right, there's the uppercase too
08:16:02 <shachaf> `` echo 'echo "$0"' > bin/dollarzero; chmod +x bin/dollarzero; dollarzero; rm bin/dollarzero
08:16:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dollarzero: not found
08:16:35 <HackEgo> key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
08:16:39 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
08:17:19 <shachaf> `` mkx 'bin/dollarzero//echo "$0"'; dollarzero; rm bin/dollarzero
08:17:19 <HackEgo> bin/dollarzero \ /hackenv/bin/dollarzero
08:17:33 -!- teo_anarcho has left.
08:18:05 <HackEgo> It takes strength to admit your own weaknesses.
08:18:09 * oerjan swats shachaf for not remembering how his own command works -----###
08:18:09 <HackEgo> There is a way out. Finding it will be difficult. It may be the hardest thing you've ever done. Find it anyway.
08:18:50 <HackEgo> 295 \ 503 \ 544 \ 755 \ 786
08:19:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: neutral: not found
08:19:40 <HackEgo> tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett
08:19:43 <HackEgo> tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett
08:19:57 <oerjan> i was already sick of both `evil and `good, just from reading the logs when tswett added them :(
08:20:03 <shachaf> not collaborative enough hth
08:20:24 <shachaf> HackEgo decisions shouldn't be made by fiat
08:30:52 <FireFly> shachaf: I don't think Fiat's in the HackEgo business
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09:02:11 <oerjan> some mathematicians have been drunk before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_with_one_element
09:11:33 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22one-valued+logic%22
09:15:10 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: written in word
09:16:40 <hppavilion[1]> I do agree that any mathematician who can't use LaTeX or TeX or ConTeXt or anything like that isn't a real mathematician
09:17:09 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I was reading this one though: http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/2218364.pdf?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
09:18:19 <izabera> i can't read more than the the first page
09:18:59 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, if you produce a PDF that doesn't have grainy text then you aren't a real mathematician. I'm completely serious. Not kidding. At all.
09:20:13 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Though, it appears it was published in a philosophy paper, so maybe I am drunk
09:20:29 <izabera> i don't know what the "logic of ejaculations" is and i'm not even sure i want to know it
09:22:16 <izabera> nonsense is not really interesting
09:22:58 <hppavilion[1]> But it's interesting to try to come up with bullshit.
09:23:17 <oerjan> strange-valued logics are the domain of toposes, i think, but i've never made the effort to actually learn those.
09:23:40 <oerjan> or topoi, if you prefer
09:23:43 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: What I think I mean is complex boolean logic
09:24:27 <hppavilion[1]> A four-valued logic where everything is either FG, FU, GG, or GU.
09:24:49 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that each topos has an object that corresponds to its "booleans" (was it discriminator?)
09:26:12 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose it'd be easier to represent them as FF, FT, TF, and TT
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09:38:48 <lifthrasiir> seriously considering to add a triangular/pentagonal pixel with 1:2 or 2:1 slope
09:44:35 <nvd> lifthrasiir: what are you working on?
09:44:54 <lifthrasiir> nvd: a scalable pan-Unicode bitmap font (just like /oren/'s, but also scalable).
09:45:00 <lifthrasiir> http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample
09:45:33 <nvd> Your lambda is a bit weird
09:46:09 <lifthrasiir> the current scheme has a fundamental restriction on the triangle slope (1:1 only)
09:48:26 <lifthrasiir> nvd: the lower-case lambda should be a bit better. for the upper-case lambda, uh, no idea.
09:48:51 <lifthrasiir> (the current shape is essentially an A without a horiz. line)
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11:53:31 <adsd> fERz9RtEnkvf7JYmk
11:53:39 <adsd> What can it be?
11:53:51 <adsd> type of esolang? Thanks!
11:54:20 <int-e> a bit too short for a bitcoin address ;)
11:54:36 <adsd> what do you mean?
11:54:48 <adsd> 0Hdd6lTePiSGz2j4E1Px
11:54:55 <adsd> tyQq55KwpLnj8Ts5vJxzW0I
11:55:09 <adsd> Anybody can help
11:55:17 <int-e> not without context
11:55:59 <int-e> `` echo no | shachaf1sum
11:56:00 <HackEgo> 49qqqo3o048p671676o4519855q137r37ps71sqp -
11:56:05 <adsd> Name of the proble: Go fishing!
11:56:12 <adsd> Hint: 1. Esolang
11:59:04 <adsd> It's look like base64 but I cant decode
11:59:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45687&oldid=45568 * 213.162.68.131 * (+15) /* D */ add Deadfish
12:00:44 <adsd> I see this list but I cant find the type of esolang of this problem
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12:12:02 * int-e was looking for esolangs with "fish" in their name... but none of them look right. Malbolge would be another guess, but it tends to use non-alphanumeric characters. So I don't know what that is.
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12:49:01 <fungot> That Pong alone cannot stop!
12:49:44 <HackEgo> 🐐/🐐 <(Unicode goat laments your inability to render Unicode goat.)
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13:19:37 <fungot> int-e: there is no store. crappy does not fnord. he fnord the development just fnord.
13:19:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:26:44 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
13:54:13 <int-e> the poor birds will starve
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14:24:17 <\oren\> what characters should I add today
14:25:12 <\oren\> I promised someone I'd add Thai, maybe i'll do that
14:32:01 <boily> he\\oren\. do you have 泰?
14:33:17 <HackEgo> [U+6CF0 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-6CF0]
14:49:38 <\oren\> holy shit hahahahahaha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0YZ1lceoxk
14:51:40 <\oren\> I love russian mad scientists
14:53:45 <int-e> typical, got stuck on the brand name...
14:56:04 <\oren\> yotube sucks tese days
14:57:13 <\oren\> I usually download the video and themn play it
14:58:30 <int-e> probably not youtube's fault
14:59:06 <int-e> (unless you think of not paying extortion money as a fault)
14:59:26 <\oren\> no, it is their fault. varius other streaming sites (nsfw ones) seems to stream a lot faster.
15:00:15 <\oren\> the problem is that youtube keeps switching its quality and re-downloading the same part over and over
15:01:28 <\oren\> I think the problem started happening when they stopped using flash
15:03:13 <\oren\> basically, it downloads 0:00-0:40 at 480p, then stops, downloads 0:30-0:60 at 360p, then stops, upgrades to 720 and redownloads
15:04:09 <\oren\> and sometimes it completely freezes until I refresh the page
15:04:57 <\oren\> so the only solution I've found is to use vlc or another program to download and play the whole thing at one quality
15:06:40 <\oren\> which chooses the highest quality, and streams fast ANYWAY, so it is obviously their clint software throttling it and fucking it up
15:08:10 <int-e> sorry, but nothing is ever obvious.
15:08:48 <\oren\> well tbf it could also be firefox's terrible JS interpreter
15:09:21 <\oren\> but regardless the prblem is happening at my end, not the server
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15:16:11 <boily> are there voodoo dolls for programs? can you tickle a fungot figurine?
15:16:11 <fungot> boily: i know of, but i heard a discussion on commenting source code.
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15:21:34 <lifthrasiir> 1222 characters so far, lots of currency characters.
15:22:01 <lifthrasiir> frankly speaking they are really hard to fit in 8x16 box
15:22:37 <\oren\> sometimes you have to wdge
15:22:59 <lifthrasiir> but I'm quite proud that I've managed to make U+20B7 good
15:23:44 <HackEgo> [U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0042 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B] [U+0037 DIGIT SEVEN]
15:24:06 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: I've finally implemented 2:1 and 1:2 slopes, they are so useful for complex characters
15:24:11 <FireFly> `` unidecode $(unicode U+20B7)
15:25:39 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
15:26:35 * gamemanj gets a pin and stabs a figurine marked "the magical force that allows LLVM to change their IR for seemingly random reasons, in particular adding redundant type annotations"
15:27:45 <gamemanj> (for example: getelementptr inbounds %struct.room, %struct.room* %this, i32 0, i32 0)
15:27:58 <gamemanj> (specifically the first %struct.room)
15:29:57 -!- jaboja has joined.
15:31:18 <\oren\> `run wget 'http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c'
15:31:34 <HackEgo> --2015-11-28 15:30:45-- http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2015-11-28 15:30:46-- (try: 2) http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2.
15:31:35 <boily> chirurgical voodoo dolling, with titanium plated precision tools.
15:32:05 <\oren\> `run wget 'http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c'
15:32:21 <HackEgo> --2015-11-28 15:31:32-- http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2015-11-28 15:31:34-- (try: 2) http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2.
15:32:24 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.htm
15:33:20 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:33:40 <\oren\> `fetch http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c
15:33:41 <HackEgo> 2015-11-28 15:33:07 URL:http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c [987/987] -> "u8tbl.c" [1]
15:33:49 <gamemanj> Uh, why on earth did HackEgo go through a proxy...
15:34:04 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:6: error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘.’ token \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:35:17 <\oren\> `run cc u8tbl.c -o u8tbl
15:35:18 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:6: error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘.’ token \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:35:56 <HackEgo> #include "stdio.h" \ #include "stdlib.h"
15:37:34 <\oren\> `` cc u8tbl.c -o u8tbl
15:37:35 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:6: error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘.’ token \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:38:15 <\oren\> `` cc -Wall u8tbl.c -o u8tbl
15:38:16 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:1: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘-’ token \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:38:40 <\oren\> `` gcc u8tbl.c -o u8tbl
15:39:00 <gamemanj> why would gcc make any difference
15:39:02 <\oren\> oh, cc isn't a C compiler? WTFFFFFFF
15:39:15 <gamemanj> well, cc looks like a c compiler
15:39:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access cc: No such file or directory
15:39:19 <gamemanj> it's just not a sane c compiler
15:39:25 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:1: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘--’ token \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:39:53 <\oren\> `` cc 'int main(){printf("hello world");}'
15:39:55 <gamemanj> `` cc void main() {puts("What the fuck");}
15:39:55 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `cc void main() {puts("What the fuck");}'
15:40:10 <gamemanj> `` cc 'void main() {puts("What the fuck");}'
15:40:46 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x20b7 0x20b7
15:40:46 <HackEgo> bash: u8tbl: command not found
15:40:48 <gamemanj> `` cc 'void main() {puts("Hey, my name`s HackEgo, and you`re listening to `What the Fuck`.");usleep(100000);puts("Our contestants today...");}'
15:40:49 <HackEgo> Hey, my name`s HackEgo, and you`re listening to `What the Fuck`. \ Our contestants today...
15:40:57 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x20b7 0x20b7
15:41:04 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x2000 0x20b7
15:41:05 <HackEgo> \ ‐‑‒–—―‖‗‘’‚‛“”„‟ \ †‡•‣․‥…‧
\ ‰‱′″‴‵‶‷‸‹›※‼‽‾‿ \ ⁀⁁⁂⁃⁄⁅⁆⁇⁈⁉⁊⁋⁌⁍⁎⁏ \ ⁐⁑⁒⁓⁔⁕⁖⁗⁘⁙⁚⁛⁜⁝⁞ \
15:41:29 <HackEgo> !"#$%&'()*+,-./ \ 0123456789:;<=>? \ @ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO \ P
15:41:52 <\oren\> yah, it's part of my toolsuite for making my font
15:42:19 <gamemanj> `` ./u8tbl 0x34 0x34 0x32 0x32
15:42:55 <gamemanj> once upon a time there was a bot which might understand 42
15:43:49 <\oren\> strtol with 0,0 has useful beehiveior
15:44:29 <\oren\> it uses prefix 0x for hex and 0 for octal
15:45:19 <gamemanj> Sounds like strtol is great for converting strings to numbers and back.
15:45:52 <HackEgo> @ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO \ PQRSTUVW
15:46:04 <HackEgo>
\
15:46:53 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0xFF00 0xFF37
15:46:54 <HackEgo> ！＂＃＄％＆＇（）＊＋，－．／ \ ０１２３４５６７８９：；＜＝＞？ \ ＠ＡＢＣＤＥＦＧＨＩＪＫＬＭＮＯ \ ＰＱＲＳＴＵＶＷ
15:47:36 <\oren\> I like how wide ascii is at ascii +_ 0xff00
15:49:44 <gamemanj> That's probably intentional...
15:49:57 <gamemanj> There's all sorts of "coincidences" like that in charsets
15:50:36 -!- Wallacoloo has joined.
15:51:16 <gamemanj> also: space is at 0x20, the capital letters start at 0x41 or something...
15:54:42 -!- Wallacoloo has left.
15:56:25 <int-e> Hurray for technology? "Continuous and lengthy discussions, technical meetings and negotiations eventually led us to the point where we were allowed to run our own node.js-server on the inflight servers of the aircraft."
15:56:44 <\oren\> FUUUUUUUUCKCKCCKCKCKCKCKC
15:57:08 <gamemanj> And why the fuck did it require "Continuous and length discussions, technical meetings and negotiations"?
15:57:15 <\oren\> I'm gonna be in a fiery crash because some asshole wanted to write things in JS?!!?
15:57:18 <int-e> http://reaktor.com/blog/aircraft-customer-experience-on-a-new-level/
15:57:25 <gamemanj> It sounds as if an aircraft is a war zone or something
15:57:45 <int-e> They want us to think that it's just the entertainment system...
15:58:54 <gamemanj> Separation of concerns on something like this would dictate they would be separate systems.
16:00:03 <int-e> I'm not sure what to make of this story http://www.wired.com/2015/05/feds-say-banned-researcher-commandeered-plane/
16:00:15 <int-e> if they were really separate networks then that shouldn't be possible.
16:00:23 <\oren\> well remem ber that truck that got hacked thru the entertainment system?
16:02:41 <gamemanj> Well, even if they're on the same network, it doesn't matter as long as the actual flight control systems are still locked up normally.
16:03:06 <gamemanj> As long as flight control hasn't been taken over by Node.JS, everything's relatively fine.
16:03:19 <int-e> not true, once you can flood the network with meaningless packets
16:03:23 <gamemanj> They shouldn't be on the same network, but if they are, that's a separate (but still bad) issue
16:03:47 -!- mauris_ has joined.
16:03:58 <\oren\> besides last time I checked JS didn't have an error handling system capable of handling OOM gracefully
16:04:20 <gamemanj> I don't think that Node.JS would get put into the flight control systems.
16:05:49 <\oren\> even if it doesn't, it could bring the sytem to a crawl by taking up all memory
16:06:31 <gamemanj> If it's not on the same machine, that doesn't matter.
16:07:07 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:09:30 <\oren\> then we'd better hope for sane engineers who don't let some JS jockeys onto the main flight computers
16:10:43 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: well, to be fair, many dynamic allocation schemes cannot easily deal with OOM.
16:12:24 <\oren\> but JS is particularly prone to filling all memory with "reachable" variables
16:12:44 <\oren\> at least in my experience
16:13:18 <lifthrasiir> probably every dynamic language has the same characteristic
16:15:49 <\oren\> hmm, maybe any dynamic language with global-by-default variables, lambdas that carry the context in which they were defined, and a library using large trees of objects as its main principle
16:18:16 <\oren\> it becomes very easy to silently leak megabytes
16:27:38 <gamemanj> Do the lambdas carry all the context in which they were defined, or just the variables they use?
16:28:15 <gamemanj> Because if they carry all the context in which they were defined, there is something seriously wrong with whoever had that idea.
16:29:26 <gamemanj> Though, technically without finalizers there's no way to verify if it carries it or not... so if it's supposed to keep all the context, you can ignore that and only keep the things with finalizers and what the lambda uses.
16:29:54 <gamemanj> Still sounds like a mess though.
16:34:52 <int-e> javascript has an eval function...
16:36:45 * gamemanj moves far enough away from the screen that they can't tell the difference between some letters
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16:47:19 <b_jonas> \oren\: in your font, the cyrillic capital letters "ЅІЈ" look too much like the latin letters. I think you should fix that.
16:47:46 <quintopia> gamemanj closures in javascript carry all their context
16:48:31 <b_jonas> \oren\: not all of them are exactly the same, but they're quite confusing
16:49:48 <b_jonas> \oren\: I see you're using tricky different letter forms to distinguish the cyrillic letters from the latin, and lower height to distinguish the greek capitals from the latin
16:50:13 <b_jonas> I've only implemented the basic greek letters without accents, but I use small dots in the confusable ones.
16:50:34 <b_jonas> Just like how I use dots in some accented letters that would otherwise be too similar to each other
16:51:39 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: is there any general solution? for that matters, I have three copies of latin A -- greek Alpha -- cyrillic A which are identical right now.
16:51:40 <gamemanj> quintopia: All? Including what isn't used...? *notes down "Javascript is nuts"*
16:51:54 <lifthrasiir> it was very hard to make alternative glyphs for me
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16:53:56 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: "A" isn't really the worst because it's easy to make very different versions of it: different shaped tops or different height for the bar
16:54:15 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but try to make lots of different "T" or "O" that look nice
16:54:52 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: anyway, I think it's less of a problem if I confuse the greek with the cyrillic, because I rarely read text in those, the main point is to notice accidental non-latin characters among latin text
16:55:37 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but cyrillic is different because there are way more similar letters to latin in first place, even in lower case
16:55:43 <b_jonas> and it's hard to do anything with the lower case letters
16:55:55 <quintopia> gamemanj, sort of. rather, they are considered to maintain exactly what scope they are declared in. which means at least any reference uses must be maintained as reachable
16:56:21 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: one thing you could try to do is to make the cyrillic have thin lines, but that could look ugly
16:56:32 <b_jonas> or maybe thick horizontal lines, I dunno
16:56:56 <b_jonas> I haven't really tried to implement them yet
16:57:21 <b_jonas> I have a very few latin and punctuation characters on my near term todo, but not cyrillic
16:58:14 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: where's your font these days? I think you saw some page that didn't work for me
16:59:15 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample should be stable for now.
17:00:02 <b_jonas> um, I don't see anything. is that trying to use some fancy modern javascript thingy?
17:00:16 <lifthrasiir> do you see "1237 characters, 578 intermediate glyphs so far"?
17:00:31 <b_jonas> and an input box for "sample text"
17:00:58 <b_jonas> let me see, is it a static SVG? if so, I could render that separately
17:00:59 <gamemanj> Describing what it is time!: "Techno-style looking glyphs, not out-of-place in a cyberpunk movie."
17:01:10 <b_jonas> or is there a PDF or postscript version of the page?
17:01:18 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: it lacks xmlns but it is not hard to add them.
17:01:34 <gamemanj> "Including braille glyphs in case you want to add useless dot patterns."
17:01:37 <lifthrasiir> sadly, not yet. probably I need to make an image out of them later.
17:01:53 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: good way to boost the number of supported glyphs
17:01:53 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: pdf would be the most convenient I think
17:02:04 <b_jonas> but sure, static images can't hurt too as a quick preview
17:02:16 <b_jonas> but I can't complain, I still haven't made a good page demonstrating my font either
17:02:28 <lifthrasiir> I really need to make an OTF file out of that.
17:02:46 <gamemanj> lifthrasiir: I'm pretty sure the braille glyphs have a grand total of two uses, ever:
17:03:33 <gamemanj> hmm, a system to render bitmaps into UTF-8 text
17:03:57 <b_jonas> Have they gotten the reverse eight point braille (with two dots above the grid of six) into unicode yet?
17:16:49 <\oren\> b_jonas: I fixed ЅІЈ SIJ
17:20:44 <\oren\> right now I'm adding Thai
17:23:22 <b_jonas> \oren\: will you do APL symbols? I can get you a list if you need. there's a hundred or two (though you already have a few that aren't only APL symbols) and they're generally easy to draw.
17:23:46 <b_jonas> (few hundred total, not used all together in any one APL dialect)
17:24:18 <b_jonas> oh, although I see you already have some of them
17:25:17 <b_jonas> hmm, you seem to have a lot of them,
17:25:41 <b_jonas> but there's a few I can't find by eye. let me check how they're supposed to be encoded
17:26:24 <b_jonas> you might actually have all
17:27:04 <boily> \oren\: could you please add U+1F414?
17:27:31 <b_jonas> pine, upside down pine, tee with small circle, bottom with small circle were the ones I didn't see
17:27:45 <b_jonas> now where's the quad with prime
17:27:51 <b_jonas> oh there it is next to the lightbulb
17:28:12 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x1f414 0x1f414
17:28:29 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x1f414 0x1f420
17:32:29 <\oren\> I'll do the emoji eventually, but only as wide characters
17:34:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: meh, you already have the basic cp437 smiling face, you don't need more than that
17:37:37 <\oren\> I'm done Thai, is that enought for this batch or should I add more
17:38:16 <\oren\> maybe I'll add more kyoiku kanji
17:39:58 <gamemanj> Yay for UTF-8! Sadly, not in an esoteric language: http://pastebin.com/jjkR9ErN
17:50:33 -!- MC8_ has changed nick to MC8.
17:59:06 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:03:23 <boily> \oren\: to which extent do you plan supporting indic scripts?
18:04:39 -!- bb010g has joined.
18:05:44 <\oren\> boily: to whatever extent is possible in 9x16 pixels?
18:08:52 <\oren\> When I reach 6000 characters I'll update the version number
18:09:26 <\oren\> right now it's 8 as you can see in
18:09:28 <boily> I meant specifically consonant conjuncts. they are many and irregular.
18:10:13 <boily> of course there's the physical limit of 2 ** (9 * 16) pixel combinations.
18:10:27 <lambdabot> 22300745198530623141535718272648361505980416
18:12:13 <\oren\> meh, whatever, I draw each code point separately
18:13:03 <gamemanj> hmm, that's small enough that it might be feasible to send random combinations to people and ask them what letter it looks like or "indeterminate"
18:13:42 <gamemanj> the only trouble is that 4x4 is an awfully small font
18:13:52 <\oren\> you need one pixel more for space between letters
18:14:07 <\oren\> 4x4 is effectively 3x3
18:15:00 <lambdabot> 1329227995784915872903807060280344576
18:15:36 <b_jonas> \oren\: maybe instead of adding characters, you should try to make different fonts?
18:15:53 <gamemanj> 4x4 would be the size of the glyphs, 5x5 would be "including spacing"
18:16:03 <\oren\> b_jonas: one day, I'll add the math letters
18:17:45 <gamemanj> Generally the bitmap size is specified "without spacing"...
18:17:47 <b_jonas> And I should add the 8+12+1+4 characters I have in my short-term todo
18:18:13 <b_jonas> (8 line drawing or similar, 12 latin letters, 1 misc, 4 arrows with base)
18:20:58 -!- AvinashSnl has joined.
18:21:08 <b_jonas> And I should make a demonstration page where I show sample texts and also a table of all characters as bitmap images
18:21:09 -!- AvinashSnl has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
18:21:48 <b_jonas> How well supported are <object> elements in HTML these days? Are there still browsers that don't know them?
18:22:35 <b_jonas> I mean among browsers that can render images.
18:24:03 <b_jonas> \oren\: by the way, are you planning to add cirth?
18:24:18 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:24:41 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how easy it is to fit them in this grid
18:25:03 <b_jonas> But probably not harder than what you've already managed with some scripts.
18:28:04 <b_jonas> \oren\: cirth is one of the two constructed scripts by Tolkien himself
18:28:44 <\oren\> Apparently it's considered to be merges with the Runic block.
18:28:50 <b_jonas> Cirth are runes, used for carving into stone, whereas the other script, tengwa, is for writing with a pen or similar.
18:29:14 -!- Frooxius has joined.
18:29:31 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x16f1 0x16f43
18:29:35 <izabera> i get these blocks with a dynamic ip http://i.imgur.com/7wDIbPo.png
18:29:47 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x16f1 0x163
18:29:51 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x16f1 0x16f3
18:30:07 <b_jonas> Why would it be merged? Futhark runes (which have tons of variants), cirth, and old Hungarian runes are three totally non-overlapping set of runes.
18:31:02 <b_jonas> Although cirth does look similar to futhark, in the way that Lat-Cyr-Greek looks similar to Georgian and Armenian scripts in its features and typography, but they are three non-overlapping sets.
18:31:38 <b_jonas> Lat-Cyr-Greek is at least three related scripts which have letters related in origin, even if they are distinct scripts now
18:31:57 <\oren\> those three runes I'm missign were added baecause they are in cirth but not futhark
18:33:03 <b_jonas> It consists of old Phoenician, Greek, Latin, the two Cyrillics, Coptic, and more, in a way that it's not entirely clear how to count the number of scripts, and the number changes by which decade you ask.
18:33:11 <b_jonas> But it's definitely at least three scripts.
18:34:21 <b_jonas> Mind you, they also share some of the origins with futhark, braille, hebrew, and arabic, because phoenician and greek and latin are so popular that it influenced everyone.
18:34:52 <\oren\> hebrew is a direct descendant of phonician
18:34:53 <b_jonas> But hebrew and arabic and braille have typography very different from them.
18:35:04 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, that is very likelyi
18:35:22 <b_jonas> \oren\: the alphabetic order and the names of letters are certainly related, and probably the letter shapes too.
18:36:04 <\oren\> Well anyway they already rejected klingon so...
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18:36:38 <b_jonas> \oren\: they rejected tengwa once too. they did add it later
18:37:06 <nortti> b_jonas: they've added tengwar in unicode?
18:37:12 <b_jonas> \oren\: although I for one think that adding reverse eight point braille would be more useful, and it's EASY because there's a definite and closed list of characters, unlike in many scripts.
18:37:58 <b_jonas> but maybe I remember wrong
18:38:07 <nortti> I'm only aware of the PUA one
18:38:19 <b_jonas> I might have misremembered
18:38:35 <nortti> seems there is a range reserved for them in unicode, but no encoding yet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengwar#Unicode
18:38:50 <b_jonas> However, the Klingon script being rejected is I think a good decision.
18:39:16 <b_jonas> Very few people use the Klingon script, and most of the people who speak klingon use the latin script encoding instead, so it's basically reserved for ceremonial use.
18:39:39 <b_jonas> Hmm, you guys are right, it seems tengwa and cirth aren't in unicode yet.
18:40:49 <b_jonas> Mind you, for some strange reason they've added the Phaistos Disc symbols, which is totally idiotic, given that they're used on that one disk and nowhere else, and we don't even know which pairs are supposed to be the same symbol or different ones.
18:41:10 -!- meme1 has left.
18:41:18 <b_jonas> Those kinds of scripts (if it is even a script) like the Voynich manuscript script shouldn't be added until we find out more about how it's used.
18:41:59 <int-e> hmm, does unicode even have a circular text flow marker...
18:42:27 <b_jonas> int-e: does it even have a boustrophedon text flow marker?
18:43:19 <\oren\> I'm looking at the GNU unifont right now, and I see a problem with their crowd-sourced approach in that characters which are related are in inconsistent styles
18:44:35 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I've put an image render, http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample.png
18:45:14 <\oren\> hmm you i and j have no tittles
18:46:47 <\oren\> also, why have you drawn ▂▃▄▅▆▇█▉▊▋▌▍▎▏▐░▒▓ as wide
18:47:39 <lifthrasiir> to be consistent with other block drawings
18:48:33 <zzo38> If you need to use those scripts in a text that is otherwise Unicode, you could use CSUR encoding
18:50:23 <zzo38> But I don't know of any extension to Unicode that has boustrophedon marker and so on
18:50:37 <zzo38> You may make up your own encoding if needed, whether or not it is an extension of Unicode
18:51:52 * int-e doesn't like that б.
18:53:15 -!- relrod_ has changed nick to relrod.
18:56:46 <HackEgo> [U+0431 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER BE]
18:57:39 <lifthrasiir> I don't know enough Cyrillic to determine which glyph is better looking
18:57:39 <\oren\> hmm that one's tall, when it's not supposed to be. fixing
18:57:55 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: he meant in my font I think
18:58:06 <lifthrasiir> any suggestion would be appreciated (of course, not every suggestion is accepted)
18:58:09 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:58:51 <\oren\> hmm wit, maybe it is supposed to be tall
18:59:58 <\oren\> int-e: what did you mean?
19:00:27 <zzo38> So, if you are trying to include Klingon and Tengwar and Cirth scripts in a otherwise Unicode font, you could use CSUR extensions to encode them
19:00:31 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: well your б isn't tall
19:02:46 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
19:02:54 <\oren\> ok, I added thai and 必念急息悲想意愛感
19:03:35 <b_jonas> Scripts should be in unicode only if we know enough about it to write new texts with it.
19:03:49 <\oren\> you can now fall in 愛 with my font
19:04:25 <b_jonas> Or perhaps exceptions could be made if it's used enough in a well-studied corpus, like the Bible.
19:04:45 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull Phantom_Hoover nortti Phantom_Hoover
19:05:11 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: wait, that'sa bitmap font. why would you need SVG for it?
19:05:18 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/bird | grep ummary
19:05:19 <HackEgo> summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <Phantom_Hoover> learn bird bird bird bird \ summary: <nortti> learn bird is a dinosaur \ summary: <Phantom_Hoover> learn bird bird bird bird
19:05:40 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/bird | grep ummary | tac
19:05:41 <HackEgo> summary: <Phantom_Hoover> learn bird bird bird bird \ summary: <nortti> learn bird is a dinosaur \ summary: <Phantom_Hoover> learn bird bird bird bird \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <Bike> revert
19:05:43 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: it's hybrid bitmap-vector font, the font consists of pixels that have vector counterparts
19:06:03 <oerjan> ok if Phantom_Hoover thinks so it must be correct.
19:06:14 <FreeFull> Maybe running that command back then was a mistake
19:07:01 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: the sample.html looks like this: http://cosmic.mearie.org/img/20151129-unison-sample.png
19:07:49 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: do you have a pcf version of this? or perhaps an opentype font version?
19:07:55 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: I meant my command
19:08:13 <b_jonas> oh nice, so there's a big vector version
19:08:27 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: pcf is easy to create. I can help in that. OTF is difficult.
19:08:57 <b_jonas> this seems to have a nice clean look, I like it
19:09:41 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: in http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample.png, what does it mean when a hex number heading on the left is gray?
19:09:58 <\oren\> this is certainly a better 8x16 font than GNU unifont
19:10:15 <lifthrasiir> since it's a dual-width font (or triple- or quadruple- for some glyphs, haven't seriously decided on that though)
19:10:24 <lifthrasiir> some rows have less than 32 characters there
19:10:44 <lifthrasiir> grayed U+xxxx are continuations for prior rows
19:11:12 <b_jonas> I see. So it's not strictly usable as a terminal font. This is an interesting concept.
19:12:12 <lifthrasiir> is the dual-width font problematic for terminals? I thought it is necessary for CJK fonts anyway.
19:12:50 <\oren\> terminals usually only allow CJK characters to be wide
19:12:51 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: yes, but terminals assume that the character width are the usual, which is 1 cell for most of the latin letters and arrows
19:13:25 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: there's a sort of informal "standard" width for each character, 0 or 1 or 2, which is not really regulated by unicode,
19:13:48 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: and this is important because the programs that use the terminal have to know how many cells the text they print takes up
19:13:53 <lifthrasiir> hmm, they are technically Ambiguous in the East Asian Width standard (a part of Unicode)
19:14:18 <lifthrasiir> but if some terminal doesn't like them I may try to adjust that
19:14:19 <b_jonas> so there's a libc call to tell the width of a character, and some support in curses-like libraries for it.
19:14:48 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: also, if your left arrow and right arrow characters are double width, then suddenly supposedly monospaced APL or smalltalk code will look very strange indeed
19:15:01 <lifthrasiir> wcwidth, right? probably I should look at that.
19:15:27 <b_jonas> (some variant of) smalltalk uses the left arrow as the assingment operator, this comes from back when ascii was more flexible and _ was a left arrow and ^ an up arrow
19:16:43 <\oren\> my terminal has a switch for ambiguous as wide vs narror
19:16:56 <lifthrasiir> my experience was that there are some applications expecting narrow arrows and some other applications expecting wide arrows
19:17:20 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: yes, wcwidth. it gives -1 for some non-printable characters (control characters like line feed), 0 for combining accents and similar zero width stuff, 1 for western characters and lots of others, and 2 for kanji and stuff like that.
19:17:24 <\oren\> yeah. typically japanese made prgrams want wide
19:18:15 <b_jonas> and aren't there at least separate code points representing wide left arrow, up arrow, and right arrow?
19:18:29 <lifthrasiir> narrow arrows plus custom kerning with other wide characters may work...
19:18:59 <b_jonas> I don't use kanjis, and my font only has characters that are 1 cell wide
19:19:19 <b_jonas> technically it has glyphs for control characters, unused in terminals.
19:19:49 <lifthrasiir> http://wiki.dequis.org/notes/emoji/ heh, Linux's wcwidth is not up-to-date til very recent so you cannot use (wide) Emoji correctly
19:19:49 <b_jonas> um, unused in most terminals.
19:20:15 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: well sure, that's because these days it's VERY difficult to upgrade libc, because it's hard to build.
19:21:13 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I don't think so. NOT having the widths specified by unicode is a mistake. If it was specified, then unicode support libraries like ICU would give the width, and there was a clear standard made up sanely.
19:21:16 <\oren\> When making a terminal program usually just check for specific ranges and everything else is narrow
19:21:25 <b_jonas> Well, you know, mostly sanely. Because unicode and committees and stuff.
19:21:42 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: as I've said, there *is* a standard (UAX #11).
19:21:54 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: is there? what's this UAX #11 ?
19:21:55 <zzo38> I think it would be better to make it the bit of the character code to specify the width for use with fixpitch display
19:22:12 <zzo38> Unicode doesn't do that, so you have to not use Unicode in the terminal.
19:22:27 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: does that give a width of each unicode character?
19:22:36 <lifthrasiir> some specifications updates more quickly than the core Unicode standard (the Book, til it went digital only) so they are provided as a TR
19:22:41 <b_jonas> and is there an interface in ICU to access this?
19:23:29 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: there are seven classes and I think there is.
19:24:19 <lifthrasiir> the most problematic class is A (Ambiguous) which is used in both EA context and non-EA context and its width may depend on the usage
19:24:29 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: that sounds good.
19:25:44 <b_jonas> Well, that's one of several ambiguities that have to be resolved with font variants and formatting to access them, I presume. Like the two different cyrillic script styles (which IMO should have been two different non-overlapping scripts in first place, but got messed up for political reasons, and too late to change now), or the capital I stuff, or some ligatures in some scripts.
19:26:00 <b_jonas> \ and too late to change now), or the capital I stuff, or some ligatures in some scripts.
19:26:42 <\oren\> Ah: the ranges I used were 0x2e80,0xA63f, 0xac00,0xd7ff, 0xf900,0xfaff, 0xff00,0xff60, 0xffe0,0xffe7
19:26:56 <\oren\> everything else narrow
19:27:07 <b_jonas> \oren\: hehe, "0xA63f" with mixed case
19:27:24 <lifthrasiir> for ligatures my preference is to make it a concatenation of individual glyphs, but that was a bit ugly in Roman numerals
19:27:36 <lifthrasiir> also, wcwidth(0x2190) is (as I've expected) -1 (ambiguous) :)
19:27:48 <lifthrasiir> so that's really up to the terminal softwares
19:27:51 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: the roman numerals are compatibility characters anyway, like the angstrom signs, and shouldn't be used in new texts.
19:27:57 <b_jonas> so I don't care about them.
19:28:40 <lifthrasiir> but if it messes up with terminals (e.g. failed to detect mostly-dual-width fonts) it is a problem
19:29:04 <\oren\> unsigned widthranges[] = {0x2e80,0xA63f, 0xac00,0xd7ff, 0xf900,0xfaff, 0xff00,0xff60, 0xffe0,0xffe7};
19:29:11 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: yes, and with the latin letters, I do care about them
19:29:34 <b_jonas> I see you have support for some cyrillic and greek letters
19:30:16 <b_jonas> but fewer latin letters so far than what I have in my font
19:30:59 <lifthrasiir> I've worked on cyrillic and greek letters first to check problems from multiple different (but similar) scripts
19:31:09 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: sure, makes sense
19:31:32 <lifthrasiir> haven't thoroughly drawn all characters :)
19:31:36 <b_jonas> and it's not like the font is final anyway. I haven't started with all characters ready either, I've added them in many passes, and occasionally corrected some existing characters
19:32:18 <lifthrasiir> I did so, combining characters are so painful to get it right
19:32:44 <\oren\> oh, the extra-cute o and u are from ungarian, I see
19:33:50 <b_jonas> This one seems already quite usable to render text in some languages, and looks nice and clean.
19:34:53 <\oren\> yeah, what timeframe do we have to a bdf or ttf version?
19:35:24 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: are you planning to eventually add more latin letters, and the lowercase serbian letters?
19:36:03 -!- quintopia has set topic: The international hub for esoteric fontface design and deployment. | /ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
19:37:34 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: how about more latin-cyrillic-greek punctuation, such as “„”‘’»« quotation marks, … ellipsis, flipped question mark and flipped exclamation mark, etc?
19:37:37 <\oren\> vim is esoteric for developing anything
19:38:28 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: were the next glyphs to work with (font-punct.txt), delayed by PNG renders
19:39:35 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: your ~ tilde character looks strange to me, with the sharp tips
19:41:09 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: no, the bitmap one
19:42:11 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: and just like with the latin letters, that – and — are doublewidth will cause problems in a terminal
19:44:21 <int-e> \oren\: I meant the be should be tall
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19:45:56 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: currently I have four classes for dash(-like) characters, 5/6/7/8 pxs wide each ("figure dash", "hyphen", "dash", "horiz. line")
19:46:31 <lifthrasiir> I didn't think the em-dash is like horiz. line so I went with a double-wdth dash instead (which is 8+7 px wide)
19:47:02 <lifthrasiir> but may go back to the horizontal line if it causes a problem
19:47:34 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I don't really know what the best would be here
19:48:31 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: my font and oren's font are fonts for programming or proofreading, so they try to distinguish characters that are similar by giving them a different appearance, especially when one of them is an ascii character or when the two can often occur in the same context.
19:49:01 <b_jonas> So in my font, the – has a bump below, the — has two bumps below, and other hyphens are distinguished too in some way.
19:49:24 <lifthrasiir> interesting. I do that to some extent but haven't been perfect so far.
19:49:46 <b_jonas> Yes, your font definitely doesn't seem to be doing this, except that it has a slashed zero.
19:50:24 <lifthrasiir> (I did some work to distinguish zero from ø though)
19:50:55 <b_jonas> A problem like that was the last straw why I started my font: I misread the hexadecimal number 9B as 98 (or backwards, I'm not sure), and got enough of all the problems with confusable characters
19:51:17 <b_jonas> a font for iso-8859-2 at first only, but later I expanded it with more characters.
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19:51:26 <lifthrasiir> is there a sample for your font? thinking about that, I haven't seen that yet.
19:51:46 <b_jonas> I'll have to make a sample. I was lazy and haven't made one yet, but want to show it often so I should.
19:52:02 <b_jonas> I'll report back if I made one.
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19:53:51 <lifthrasiir> another instance of similar and distinguished glyphs: 3, cyrillic ze, cyrillic e
19:54:57 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: yes, or latin T, cyrillic, and greek. this occurs more for capital letters, but still happens with lower case.
19:55:25 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: also punctuation like ,. ;: ({[< but it seems you already drew those well
19:55:35 <lifthrasiir> I was experimenting with making greeks semi-serif, not sure about cyrillics though
19:55:55 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: also I want easy to distinguish accented latin letters, so I draw the accents large and visible, but that can be hard for some letters in a cramped space
19:56:24 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: some serifs can help, but for some letters, especially o, it's really hard to do anything
19:56:36 <\oren\> I put the double accents side by side
19:56:38 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: not really double accents. I don't have vietnamese support (yet)
19:57:04 <\oren\> or on top depending on what fits
19:57:04 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but just accents on some capital letters, esp. ő vs Ő
19:57:19 <b_jonas> so I have a small dot in some capital letters to distinguish them from lowercase versions
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19:58:02 <\oren\> whereas, my accented capitals use the small-cap versions of the capitals
19:58:41 <b_jonas> other possibilities would be to make the accent touch the capital letter, to make the accent touch the descender of the letter above.
19:59:14 <\oren\> I have a lot of touching ascenders and descenders
19:59:15 <b_jonas> but even this can be difficult because try to make the accent touch the letter in Ú and make it not look sort of like an Ó
19:59:32 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, but your font is 16 high, mine is 20 high. that's a BIG difference
20:00:01 <b_jonas> the four pixels height and one or two pixels of width really add a lot to readability
20:01:19 <\oren\> I think that's my most cramped accented charatcer
20:01:56 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I've updated the font sample, tried to distinguish three circle-shaped letters. please see if they are really distinguished from each other :)
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20:03:41 <b_jonas> \oren\: dunno. most double accented characters are used by Vietnamese or in IPA or similar phonetic transcriptions, AFAIK, but perhaps some rarely seen (by me) African or American languages also use such things.
20:03:48 <lifthrasiir> I've adjusted the roundness of circles to give different glyphs. latin is less round, cyrillic is more round, greek is asymmetric and looks like slightly slanted (like scripts).
20:04:47 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: you may want to adjust your lowercase sigma though
20:05:57 <b_jonas> also, this gets worse once you want more crazy characters like the apl big circle, the bullet circle, etc.
20:06:11 <b_jonas> there are TONS of characters that are just circles, in various different sizes
20:06:20 <\oren\> I gave up on that with the symbols
20:06:38 <b_jonas> \oren\: sure, as long as you make them clearly distinguishable from ASCII it's fine really
20:06:38 <\oren\> some are probably the same
20:06:42 <lifthrasiir> well, we have different colors of books anyway :)
20:07:21 <b_jonas> \oren\: and of course APL small circle in the middle must not look the same as APL big circle, because those can both occur in most variants of APL, but that's about all
20:07:43 <b_jonas> 0 versus O versus o versus everything else is the most important
20:08:03 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: and yes, I think your circles are good now
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20:08:45 <b_jonas> three different T can also be difficult. *two* are easy, but three is tricky
20:09:48 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: anyway, I find your font nice, but the accents are tiny and so sometimes hard to distinguish from each other, but that's difficult to do well in such a small space
20:10:50 <b_jonas> I actually have a non-free 16x9 font I used to use for VGA text console, which covers only iso-8859-2. It's non-free because
20:11:16 <lifthrasiir> I don't like that too, but it's already hard to distinguish caron/circumflex from breve/inverted breve
20:12:12 <b_jonas> I made it from mixing together three different 16x9 VGA text mode fonts from video cards or bioses, plus a free one or two, plus modified some characters by hand, but there's still enough of one of the original non-free fonts unmodified in there that I can't consider it unambiguously free.
20:14:21 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: and it will get harder when you'll want úüűÚÜŰ or ÈÉÊË mutually distinguishable, because those sets occur together in a single language
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20:15:24 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: wait, do you live in the UK or something?
20:16:20 <b_jonas> I mean, you have ẂẀ, and one of those are used by only Welsh I think, and very rarely even there.
20:16:56 <b_jonas> It's strange that you have that particular character when you otherwise have slightly fewer latin letters than my font in the current version.
20:17:12 <lifthrasiir> generally I've worked through a list of pre-combined characters
20:17:29 <b_jonas> Although now that I look at it, you have A with double grave accent, which is I think even crazier
20:17:50 <b_jonas> double grave accent is used only in some really obscured african or american language rarely written or something
20:19:18 <b_jonas> I mean, I currently have six pairs of latin letters I want to add, and eventually I might try to add Vietnamese, although frankly that needs a higher character cell or a font with different shapes in this character cell,
20:20:07 <b_jonas> but such a strange letter as A with double grave accent is not in my todo list, not even after I add cyrillic or _sane_ looking greek letters
20:20:49 <b_jonas> (The greek letters I currently have are basically ugly stubs, barely usable to read short maths formulas people sometimes type in IRC.)
20:21:10 <b_jonas> (I added them in a hurry when I added some common maths punctuation.)
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20:24:25 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I mean, oren has A with double grave, but he has like tons of characters, so it's not so strange there.
20:28:42 <lifthrasiir> phew, re-adjusted almost every greek letter
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20:31:12 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: the lowercase sigma still doesn't look like a sigma to me. shouldn't it have a bigger hook on the top right?
20:31:20 <b_jonas> so that it's more readable
20:33:10 <lifthrasiir> how about final sigma? seems a bit wide to me.
20:34:18 <\oren\> hashtag real_letters_have_curves
20:34:31 <b_jonas> As for óöőÓÖŐúüűÚÜŰ, the problem is that not only they have to look distinct from each other, but also from õÕûÛ and even ôÔ,
20:36:01 <b_jonas> because õÕûÛ often occur instead of őŐűŰ from technical problems when people have only iso-8859-1 or cp1252 accessible or they declare character encoding wrong instead of iso-8859-2 or cp1250, and before that ôÔûÛ could similarly occur with cp437-derived character sets (cp437, cp852, cp850, CWI, etc)
20:39:53 <lifthrasiir> okay, I think double graves are clearly distinguished from graves now
20:41:49 <b_jonas> graves weren't involved here. That's French, with its eacute and egrave.
20:42:51 <b_jonas> Even today in 2015 (supposedly the Future) I sometimes see the õÕûÛ problem pop up in new webpages, emails, other electronic documents, and printed labels.
20:43:45 <\oren\> kings, nations, come and go, but bugs are forever.
20:45:02 <b_jonas> There's also other, more obvious mangled representations, namely utf8 ő mixed into iso88592 á, double-utf8 ő in utf8 text (which occurs when the previous is converted from iso88592 to utf8), question marks, or (this is the funniest) QPqp in this order instead of őŐűŰ, which is from the high byte missing from utf16.
20:45:14 <lifthrasiir> hmm, diaeresis is still not very distinguished from double acute
20:45:30 <b_jonas> If you see Q in Hungarian emails, that's why.
20:45:38 <b_jonas> And this is only when they get áé right.
20:45:51 <b_jonas> There are of course tons of text that get basically everything non-ascii wrong,
20:46:28 <b_jonas> including the names of some businesses in bank statements which is horrible because they're already all uppercase and truncated to a small field width.
20:47:26 <b_jonas> And, very often, mail or package labels printed in the far east, who assume everyone is like the US postal service who insists on only uppercase ascii letters and digits with no punctuation.
20:47:45 <lifthrasiir> I think now óöőÓÖŐúüűÚÜŰõÕûÛôÔ are distinguished to some extent.
20:48:00 <lifthrasiir> revised diaeresis to make it a bit smaller
20:48:35 <b_jonas> (Oh, and yes, à instead of á is also a mistake that occasionally occurs, but mostly on labels rather than digital representation I believe.)
20:48:56 <HackEgo> 1226) <oren> when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? <vanila> yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? <oren> apparently not santa claus <zzo38> Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 1227) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ
20:48:58 <HackEgo> 1226) <oren> when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? <vanila> yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? <oren> apparently not santa claus <zzo38> Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 1227) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ
20:49:11 <HackEgo> 57) <fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" \ 104) * Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. <cpressey> To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia
20:49:11 <fungot> HackEgo: yea which system run fnord to get the variables' values can be denoted by nouns, properties by verbs, and functions aren't macros.
20:49:18 <b_jonas> (I think that's when they're using some fancy designer font that has à for italian but not á, or clueless people using pre-cut etiquettes or templates.)
20:49:21 <HackEgo> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 5) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren
20:49:22 <fungot> HackEgo: non-optional infinite recursion because you don't use
20:49:48 <b_jonas> (And you can't help on those labels by fixing this font.)
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20:50:06 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: http://cosmic.mearie.org/img/20151129-unison-similar.png
20:50:21 <zzo38> I have a process that is labeled "[systray.py] <defunct>" how do I kill that process?
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20:50:49 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: looks nice, wait a minute I'll look at the bitmap
20:51:20 <lifthrasiir> (the render above should be the same to the bitmap rendering, it has a subpixel rendering turned off)
20:51:21 <b_jonas> ais523: we're looking at lifthrasiir's hybrid bitmap vector font
20:51:21 <zzo38> b_jonas: I tried that and nothing happened; it won't kill the parent either
20:52:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: what's the status of the parent?
20:52:13 <lifthrasiir> yeah, 8x16 for most cases, 16x16 for CJK and many symbols (I think), may be wider for ligatures etc.
20:52:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: does the parent have the same real UID as you, and is it stopped, waiting, running, waiting uninterruptible, defunct?
20:52:55 <b_jonas> and possibly what process is it, and it's not init right?
20:53:05 <zzo38> The status of the parent is D+ and the status of the child is Zs
20:54:05 <lifthrasiir> Zs is a zombie and a session leader, but what the hell is D+?
20:54:11 <b_jonas> in case it complains about some broken hardware (like unreadable hard disk) which could annoy old kernels a lot (and can still can if you have swap on it, but that's understanible)
20:54:53 <lifthrasiir> ah, Linux seems to have one more code for "uninterruptible sleep"
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20:55:05 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: so tiny dots close to each other in diaresis, thick everything else? interesting choice, might be a good idea for a 16 high font
20:55:38 <b_jonas> I mean tiny dots close to each other, thick acutes and grave and double acute, thin circumflex and tilde
20:55:49 <zzo38> I also have two processes owned by "lp" with status code "D"
20:56:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: can you check the kernel logs for suspicious messages?
20:56:10 <zzo38> Which are documents I was trying to print and canceled
20:56:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you use NFS? and what kernel is this?
20:56:51 <zzo38> It contains things like "INFO: task hp:12678 blocked for more than 120 seconds" and so on in dmesg
20:57:53 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: also tricky, make Đ (Serbian latin) and Ð (Icelandic) distinguishable. They look the same in readable fonts, and don't occur in the same language.
20:59:51 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: and another tricky one is of course making lĺľI|¦ distinguishable from each other, and the other several characters that are just vertical line at least distinguishable from l|
21:00:15 <b_jonas> for lĺľI occurs in the same language, and | is ascii
21:00:49 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: oh by the way, doesn't your | look too similar to some line drawing character?
21:01:13 <b_jonas> a rare one, mind you, because few people use the thick line drawing characters, but still, | is ascii
21:01:41 <HackEgo> 284) <oklopol> esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea \ 1251) <oren> I'm making a new font. I'm up to the capital E with diarhea
21:02:04 <b_jonas> I have | broken, but that's because the style of my font is seriously influenced by the style of some 16x9 VGA fonts.
21:02:16 <lifthrasiir> | is still frequently used for making a connected line, so it would be very hard
21:02:46 <lifthrasiir> (for what matters, some glyphs are intentionally made similar to drawing characters to make them compatible)
21:02:58 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: sure, in ascii art, but - also is used that way and so is / and \
21:03:24 <b_jonas> I wouldn't shape ascii characters to look good for that
21:03:37 <zzo38> It says "D" is uninterruptible sleep (usually IO), and that + means foreground process group.
21:03:41 <b_jonas> ascii art has limitations, and if that's bad, then well you just shouldn't use ascii art
21:04:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: does the kernel log also have something about some device or disk or nfs or swap or something?
21:05:09 <b_jonas> I mean, if you want better looking terminal arts, then there are line drawing characters for that, both ones you have and ones you don't yet have.
21:05:49 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: oh, some of your ambiguous line drawing characters are narrow and some are wide? funny
21:05:55 <zzo38> Yes, something about "scsi_eh_8" and about "hp"
21:06:01 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: as in, the lines are narrow and the blocks are wide
21:06:13 <b_jonas> or are the line ones not ambiguous width? I don't know how this works
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21:06:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, then I suggest you try to figure out what this scsi_eh_8 thing is
21:06:51 <b_jonas> and especially what swap or file system you have on it
21:07:22 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: not a hard thought, I can change it anytime
21:07:31 <zzo38> The problem though seems to be something related to the printer instead
21:07:44 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: also, I _suggest_ you make B different so you don't fall into the hexadecimal trap that I did
21:07:51 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: B and 8 must look different somehow
21:08:15 <zzo38> How can I get rid of the uninterruptible sleep?
21:08:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: possible. how is the printer connected? is it plain parallel port, or through usb, or something else?
21:09:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: if the parent process dying doesn't help, then it's hard. getting rid of the broken device (eg. of a floppy with bad sectors) can sometimes help, but sometimes that's just not an option.
21:09:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: what if you disconnected the printer?
21:09:42 <b_jonas> physically disconnecting that is
21:09:59 <b_jonas> it might not help if the problem is in the controller or the motherboard, but worth a try
21:10:15 <zzo38> That didn't affect anything
21:10:18 <b_jonas> if the controller is an external usb dongle you can pull, then I suggest trying to pull that too.
21:10:38 <b_jonas> or is this direct usb to the printer, rather than a parallel or serial port on usb?
21:10:55 <zzo38> Two processes appear that are print jobs that I have canceled, those also say "D"
21:10:57 <b_jonas> oh, and wait a minute or two after disconnecting something, of course
21:11:06 <b_jonas> waiting can help with a lot.
21:11:12 <zzo38> The printer is directly USB
21:11:17 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: that would be great, but I'm out of idea. it is hard to make round corners rounder because that actually results in straight lines (in bitmaps).
21:11:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: can you check if the machine is perhaps busy swapping, or very busy with cpu work?
21:12:04 <zzo38> It also has "/lib/udev/udev-configure-printer add /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.7/usb2/2-4/2-4:1.0" with status "Ds"
21:12:05 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I just put serifs on the left side of B and D and serifs on I
21:12:12 <zzo38> The system load average is currently 605%
21:12:31 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: isn't B8 more important than greek? hmm
21:12:38 <zzo38> (It isn't usually this high; when I started having the problem it increased to this high)
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21:13:00 <lifthrasiir> anyway, I'll try but don't expect the affirmative :p
21:13:05 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: you could try the middle of the B or of the 8 different shaped if you want
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21:13:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: you may have to ask some linux admin guys (if this is linux)
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21:14:04 <b_jonas> I'm not really an admin, so I might not be able to help, and I don't know enough about linux either.
21:14:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: is it an old kernel?
21:14:37 <zgrep> Printers are evil beasts. I recommend defenestrating them as soon as possible.
21:14:55 <zzo38> I was trying to execute the "hp-info" program and that caused the problem
21:14:58 <b_jonas> zgrep: there was also something about scsi. that worries me.
21:15:04 <zzo38> Now it has the "D+" status
21:15:21 <b_jonas> oh, it's HP too? doubly evil
21:15:28 <zgrep> Dangerit'sabouttoexplode+?
21:15:34 <zzo38> This printer includes a virtual CD-ROM drive (although I am not using that function)
21:15:40 <zzo38> Also, this printer worked fine before!
21:15:48 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: oh, I seem to have found a solution: narrower 8.
21:16:24 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: careful so it doesn't clash with & then
21:16:40 <lifthrasiir> (switching from bdP9 to /\ and back forth)
21:16:52 <lifthrasiir> my & has a completely different shape so I think it's fine
21:17:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: whether it's a hardware problem or a software one, you may have to prepare candles, an altar or pentagram with runes, and sacrifical animals soon.
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21:19:25 <zzo38> I doubt that will help
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21:20:14 <b_jonas> I think scsi debugging involves sacrificing goats, or something, but if the USB is the problem then that might be different.
21:22:14 <zzo38> I will try to reboot
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21:22:38 <b_jonas> yes, rebooting definitely often helps
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21:40:23 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I have changed some cyrillic glyphs to make it more distinguishable
21:40:52 <lifthrasiir> some remained but I should be able to figure out
21:41:00 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I'm not looking right now, because I've finally started adding the few missing characters to my font now (I just added Ẽ),
21:41:13 <b_jonas> and then I might try to make a demo page, or not, I dunno.
21:41:36 <b_jonas> But I'll still be interested in this later, especially if you make BDF and OTF versions and PDF demos.
21:42:27 <zzo38> Can they be compile also into PK format?
21:42:47 <b_jonas> zgrep: who is they, and what is PK format?
21:42:54 <HackEgo> mH,2%y5ml22+w9g'ȍ3AjEk.9D><|eK±{2s_e \ wuNrQg?q&_)Iw{:'/3c/.8@ı3cm3Ѯ3s}0jcia>u*˯~\wC!yY[-W"v#R
21:43:25 <b_jonas> `` openssl rand -base64 80
21:43:25 <HackEgo> WARNING: can't open config file: /usr/lib/ssl/openssl.cnf \ 3y/6DAtAqnasX+dZdgziYWGy9r4jJ02S0Sa5jyYTiyaIrMKx4DCk4eRk3LpnG7VM \ Vq0Vt6nj/qPEVw++qbFHjjGrBsYT/j46sWstkl+lQcs=
21:43:46 <\oren\> BDF is possibly the easiest, and I can convert from BDF to ttf using my tools
21:44:01 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, but he has vector characters too
21:44:05 <tswett> `run echo 'echo $(base64 /dev/urandom | head -c 12)' > bin/mkpasswd
21:44:10 <tswett> `run chmod +x bin/mkpasswd
21:44:26 <tswett> This command generates passwords that work well.
21:44:28 <b_jonas> \oren\: wait, do you convert from bdf to proper _bitmap_ ttf, or to vector-only ttf?
21:44:31 <zzo38> PK format is a packed raster font format used by many DVI reading programs
21:44:49 <zzo38> It is meant for printer fonts
21:44:52 <tswett> Melvar: does your client beep whenever a certain byte is sent?
21:45:08 <Melvar> tswett: No, but the terminal window of idris-bot does.
21:45:50 <\oren\> it's a vector containing nothing but vertical and horzontal lines
21:46:07 <b_jonas> Melvar: my terminals have bell turned to visual bell, and also, my bot escapes non-ascii characters in its debug output.
21:46:20 <b_jonas> also escapes control characters, and the escape character
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21:46:30 <Melvar> Well, it’s visual bell, but I get a notification on my other screen.
21:46:45 <b_jonas> well, I suggest escaping some characters in the log
21:46:54 <Melvar> I don’t have control of that.
21:50:22 <b_jonas> ok, so how the heck is a hook above supposed to look like in the style of my font?
21:50:37 <b_jonas> let's try this. it's ugly, but distinguishable I think
21:51:00 <b_jonas> I'll have to check it next to all other accents, including the rare ones
21:51:23 <zzo38> You do not necessarily have to optimize the packing since you can use pktogf and gftopk to repack it
21:52:36 <b_jonas> Is there a separate character for hook above standalone, not combining, just like how ´ and ˇ are standalone versions of accents?
21:54:43 <HackEgo> [U+02BF MODIFIER LETTER LEFT HALF RING]
21:55:45 <b_jonas> \oren\: do you mean ʾ ? no, that's not it.
21:55:56 <b_jonas> that looks similar, but it's not the same thing
21:56:45 <b_jonas> wait a minute, maybe the combining version links to it
21:56:54 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
21:57:49 <b_jonas> \x{1ea3} is a with hook, which decomposes to a\x{309},
21:59:13 <b_jonas> and \x{309} doesn't link to it, even though \x{301} combining acute accent links to \x{b4} acute accent \x{2ca} modifier letter acute accent (whatever is the difference from those),
21:59:19 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x300 0x309
21:59:55 <b_jonas> and \x{30c} combining caron links to \x{2c7} caron.
22:00:19 <\oren\> ohthose are combining ones, which I don't have
22:00:20 <b_jonas> \oren\: those are all combining letters (0 width, combine with previous character)
22:00:44 <\oren\> tho maybe I oughta add them
22:00:58 <b_jonas> \oren\: you mostly render them by precomposing it to the previous character to a unicode character and then rendering the glyph for the precomposed character
22:01:20 <b_jonas> \oren\: that sometimes fails with obscure combinations of IPA of which there are so many potential ones they're unencodable
22:01:42 <b_jonas> but for any latin script character that actually occurs in languages, there is a precomposed character.
22:01:55 <b_jonas> even for the ones used in Chinese transcriptions and the like.
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22:03:32 <b_jonas> there are probably also some cyrillic script precomposed ones, like russian i with acute (or grave? what is it that russian uses to mark stress), I dunno.
22:04:27 <b_jonas> hmm no, some of those don't seem to exist. strange.
22:04:40 <b_jonas> but maybe the ones actually used do exist.
22:04:47 <b_jonas> I don't know how russian works.
22:05:10 <b_jonas> ok, so where was I? I need a few more vowels with hook.
22:07:24 <b_jonas> easy to draw, I just take the letter with circumflex, replace the circumflex with a hook.
22:07:43 <b_jonas> that's how I had drawn many accented characters already.
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22:08:58 <b_jonas> this is the hook accent used in Vietnamese by the way
22:09:08 <b_jonas> but no, I'm not adding full Vietnamese support.
22:09:22 <b_jonas> the hook above, not the other hooks
22:13:09 <b_jonas> ok, now for the arrows with base
22:15:43 <b_jonas> and while I'm there, also ↤ and ↥↧ just in case
22:18:43 <b_jonas> ok, now let me test the letters with hooks together with other letters that might be similar (though unlikely):
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22:31:55 <b_jonas> those letter should all look pairwise different, unless I accidentally pasted the same character twice
22:32:37 <b_jonas> and yes, some of those letters are obscure and aren't important to have in your font
22:33:07 <b_jonas> they look different to me, so I can do an escape cycle
22:34:47 <b_jonas> Ok, now I need (a) to collect sample texts, (b) an automatic way to list all characters implemented in my font in a nice table for a sample, (c) an automated way to make bitmap images from these, (d) possibly an automated way to make the -tye variant of the font, which differs in the appearance of the total of two characters and I only update it by hand occasionallyi.
22:35:24 <b_jonas> none of this should be too hard.
22:35:59 <b_jonas> but that doesn't mean I'll necessarily do it all tonight.
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22:38:25 <\oren\> if your font is ttf you can use the program I made
22:39:04 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/ttfinvread.htm
22:39:15 <b_jonas> \oren\: no, it's bdf, but I can read the pcf version easily
22:39:29 <b_jonas> pcf is quite readable, and also has a specs
22:39:40 <b_jonas> bdf is a compressed form that can be converted from and to bdf both ways
22:39:52 <b_jonas> automatically with the pcftobdf program
22:40:11 <b_jonas> (it's called pcftobdf because that's the more useful direction, but it does both)
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23:47:32 <boily> fungot: tell me something coherent.
23:47:32 <fungot> boily: someone needs to model a function... it'd be like :) i probably wouldn't even recognize that orig is an alias to proc.
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23:49:57 <boily> fungot: I don't know it and I can't tell you so you will have to tell me all
23:49:57 <fungot> boily: pretty low i'd say. :p they even give assembly tickets to the winners. they all look the same. a tag check involves one more indirection ( a bit more
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23:57:12 <fungot> olsner: error in set-cdr!: pair is immutable. nothing varies.