00:00:00 A "degenerate whatever" is something that's not actually a whatever, but is "on the edge", so to speak. 00:00:05 (though I've heard it argued that infinity=0 because the number line is a circle of infinite radius) 00:00:11 Ah 00:00:33 So a degenerate ellipse is either a line or a point? Infinitely large or infinitely small? 00:00:42 (I would guess) 00:00:59 or perhaps two parallel lines or a parabola 00:01:16 I would think the number ine being a circle would jsut make infinity equal negative infinity. 00:01:32 Yeah, I suppose there are a lot of kinds of degenerate ellipses. 00:01:34 But I guess it depends on how you handle overflows? 00:02:07 Take an ellipse and reduce its minor radius towards 0, and it approaches being a line segment. 00:02:22 Increase its major radius towards infinity, and it approaches being two parallel lines. 00:02:47 MDude: It depends on whether infinity is equal to 2*infinity and the like. 00:02:54 move one of its focal points towards infinity and you may get a parabola 00:02:55 Do both, it approaches being a line. 00:03:12 And yeah. Keep one focus where it is and move the other towards infinity, and it approaches being a parabola. 00:03:19 So a line is a degenerate parabola is a degenerate ellipse? 00:03:38 Sounds right. 00:03:43 And I guess a ray is a degenerate parabola, too. 00:03:50 So everything just degenerates down? 00:04:14 I wonder if there's a "god-formula" that produces something that isn't a degenerate anything xD 00:04:23 I suppose a square is a generate superellipse 00:04:34 Also sounds right. 00:04:35 -!- HackEgo has joined. 00:04:37 -!- aloril has joined. 00:05:52 A superellipse being x**n/a**n+y**n/b**n=r**n where n>2, and a square being where n=infinity 00:05:53 I guess given any sort of object, you could probably think of a way to see that object as a degenerate something. 00:06:06 You know what we need to invent and start selling? The Mathemetician's Keyboard 00:06:15 Let me see if I can just visualize that from the formula. 00:06:19 A USB-based keyboard extension that has additional symbols on it 00:06:25 I would buy it 00:07:00 Yeah, I can, more or less. 00:07:04 tswett: A superellipse is, colloquially an ellipse with squared corners. Not perefectly round. 00:07:10 Right. 00:07:32 And the higher n is, the squarier it gets, and eventually it is infinity 00:09:37 I want to make a program that draws [uber]ellipses of the form x**n/a**m+y**o/b**p=r**q, where you can enter values for n, m, o, p, a, b, r, and q, but I don't know how to make a computer calculate those points short of brute force, which wouldn't work because of uncountable infinities and rounding errors and stuff 00:10:12 Good question. 00:10:20 There should be a few ways to do that. 00:10:26 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:10:57 Two of them come to mind. 00:11:07 tswett: Such as? 00:11:35 I could use SymPy, but that doesn't come with all python distributions and is a bit cheaty, I feel. 00:11:37 Number one, you could turn that into... crap, what are they called. 00:11:42 Polar coordinates. 00:12:46 Alternatively, I could use a generalization of my ellipse drawing equation (that \oren\_ helped me with, at least for theta rotation) that can do superellipses, but I wouldn't know where to start because I only discovered how to draw circles (and by extension, ellipses) by accidentally fumbling in Scratch. 00:13:00 So then you'd just calculate r for a bunch of values of theta and plot them. 00:13:20 Number two... 00:13:36 AND it doesn't have any exponentiation used in it, so I wouldn't know where to put m/n/o/p/q 00:13:42 Start with a point, and project it onto the uberellipse somehow. 00:13:52 Which, again, I can think of two ways to do. 00:13:57 Then plot that point you just got. 00:13:59 I could, of course, just roll my own CAS if I were feeling up to it. 00:14:25 Find the slope of the uberellipse at that point, move the point a little bit in that direction, project it again. Plot that. 00:14:27 Repeat. 00:14:27 ("Of course", "just") 00:14:33 True 00:15:52 -!- sixtustha5 has joined. 00:15:54 Should I include Roulettes in Euclid? 00:16:04 You know, calculating a**m, b**p, and r**q won't really do anything. You'll just get a constant anyway. 00:16:14 tswett: Yeah, I suppose I would 00:16:38 But the x**m and y**n would be problematic 00:16:43 Now, as for projecting it onto the uberellipse? 00:16:52 Just use a little bit of calculus, that's all... 00:17:23 hppavilion[1]: so, do you know what a derivative is? 00:17:35 tswett: Vaguely. 00:17:57 It is, if I remember correctly, the slope of the plot of a function between two given points 00:18:11 Close. 00:18:17 It's the slope of the plot of a function at *one* point. 00:18:17 Which are usually separated by an infinitessimal amount 00:18:29 tswett: Yes, my second message clarifies. 00:19:08 I meant to imply with the second one, at least, that they are practically one point (but that that doesn't really work so we need two that behave as one) 00:19:08 I think Newton and Leibniz thought of it as being the slope of the plot of the function between two points separated by an infinitesimal amount. 00:19:43 tswett: That's what the snazzy wikipedia diagram I last saw a couple months back gave me the impression of. 00:19:57 (Always infinitesimal, not just usually.) 00:20:52 Problem is, nobody for the longest time could figure out how to make this infinitesimal thing work. 00:21:49 Ah 00:21:56 Surreal numbers? xD. 00:22:03 Those hadn't been invented back then, I know 00:22:06 Eventually someone, I don't remember who, came up with a new definition of the derivative that *did* work formally. 00:22:26 I know as such because they were named by conway and invented by knuth (or was it vice versa?) 00:22:47 (I think it was vice versa) 00:24:57 Something tells me the definition will probably make sense to you. 00:25:07 Yay! Calculus I understand! 00:25:14 Suppose I want to find the slope of the function f(x) = x^2 at x = 3. 00:25:25 (Barring Arithmetic of the Functia, whihc may or may not be a calculus and I don't know which it is) 00:25:31 I WILL NOT SUPPOSE. 00:25:56 Well, if you calculate the slope between x = 3 and x = 4, you'll get an approximation. If you calculate the slope between x = 3 and x = 3.1, you'll get a better approximation. Between x = 3 and x = 3.001, a better approximation still. 00:26:21 Take the limit as the distance between the two points approaches zero. 00:26:26 And that's the derivative. 00:27:57 -!- sixtustha5 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:28:03 In (more) symbols, it's the limit of (x^2 - 3^2)/(x - 3) as x approaches 3. 00:28:11 Interesting 00:28:29 Now... can you figure out what number that is? 00:28:30 Though limits are not a concept I understand yet. 00:29:15 More out of apathy and lack of necessity and lack of interesting name so far than due to not being smart enough xD 00:29:39 Shall I google it, or will you explain? 00:29:44 I'll explain. 00:29:52 You'd better understand it eventually; limits (in general, not just in the real numbers) turn out to be one of the most important concepts in higher mathematics. :D 00:29:54 Anyway... 00:30:17 Essentially, the limit of a thing is whatever it is that that thing keeps getting closer to. 00:30:28 I google "Limit" and Duck Duck go suggests two (as well as a few other I didn't read) possibilities of what /kind/ of limit I was referring to in this order: 00:30:30 Like, hey, consider this sequence: 4, 3.1, 3.01, 3.001, 3.0001, 3.00001, ... 00:30:38 1) Limits (BDSM) 00:30:48 2) Limit (Mathematics) 00:31:01 What do you figure the limit of that sequence is? 00:31:01 It keeps getting closer to 3, it appears 00:31:07 Yup. 00:31:11 So the limit is 3. 00:31:11 Or 3.0...1 00:31:26 If infinitessimals are allowed, which I doubt 00:31:32 3.0...1 is definitely a natural guess, but it turns out that in the real numbers, there's no such thing. 00:31:48 There are no infinitesimal real numbers, after all. Nor any infinite ones. 00:33:05 Now, as for the limit of (x^2 - 3^2)/(x - 3) as x approaches 3... 00:33:10 I dunno, can you figure out what that is? 00:33:59 Yes, of course, I've heard 00:35:51 Thanks to ECMA-48, my brain now reads BDSM as bidirectional support mode even though I know that's not what it means in most contexts :P 00:36:08 So maybe it's about limits in that! 00:36:29 for x=0, -9/-3=3, for x=1, 1-9/1-3=-8/-2=-4, for x=2 4-9/-1=-5/-1=5, so far I have made no progress because I was doing it wrong. Restarting 00:37:23 How about for x = 3.00000001? 00:37:45 for x=2, 4-9/-1=-5/-1=5, for x=2.5, 6.25-9/-0.5=-3.25/-0.5=6.5 00:38:48 By the way, do you know how to factor (x^2 - 3^2)? 00:40:50 For x=2.75, 2.75**2-9/-0.75=7.5625-9/-0.75=-2.5625/0.75~=-2.56/-0.75~=3.413 00:41:31 So x=2: 5, x=2.5: 6.5, x=2.75: 3.413. I made a mistake somewhere. 00:41:38 Either that or it's a bit erratic 00:42:15 tswett: x**2-3**2 is a difference of two squares, so it's (x+3)(x-3) 00:42:38 Oh, I see my mistake 00:42:53 Right, so this expression is the same as (x + 3)(x - 3)/(x - 3). 00:42:59 OK 00:42:59 Is that expression equivalent to just (x + 3)? 00:43:05 It is, isn't it 00:43:13 Nope. 00:43:16 Oh. 00:43:17 Fail. 00:43:22 The first one is undefined at x = 3, the second one is not. 00:43:25 Why not, may I ask? 00:43:27 But *apart* from that, yep. 00:43:29 Ah 00:43:34 And guess what? 00:43:39 What? 00:43:47 I do not like guessing. 00:43:56 When we're taking the limit at 3, the expression's value at 3 doesn't matter. 00:44:02 All that matters is its value *near* 3. 00:44:04 Wouldn't think so 00:44:31 So for all the values we're actually concerned about, (x + 3)(x - 3)/(x - 3) is equivalent to just (x + 3). 00:45:23 So Euclid now works in 3D, but it allows you to work in 2D with great simplicity; that is, though it's 3D, a 2D point can be specified that is equal to any 3D point that you wish 00:45:36 Ah 00:45:38 OK then 00:45:58 And what's the limit of x + 3 as x approaches 3? 00:46:05 It's just 3 + 3. 00:46:24 So x=2, f(2)=5, f(2.5)=5.5, f(2.75)=5.75 00:46:25 Oh 00:46:27 That works 00:46:36 So 6 then 00:46:40 Yup. 00:46:44 * hppavilion[1] has amazing arithmetic skillz 00:46:56 I'm so impressed by your arithmetic skillz. 00:47:05 So we've figured out that the derivative of the function f(x) = x^2 at x = 3 is 6. 00:47:25 tswett: Yay! Now I have a 0.001% advantage over everyone else in my future calculus (or maybe precalculus) classez! 00:48:22 tswett: Are you curious about how I got a 2D geometry language working in a 3D space? 00:48:45 Or did you figure it out already because I might've already explained it? xD 00:48:48 Yeah, I am. Something about specifying a plane (or some other surface, perhaps) in the 3D space? 00:48:52 Yep 00:49:21 Now, people who know calculus almost never actually take derivatives that way. There are two much easier ways of doing it. 00:49:26 Only one of which is taught in high school. 00:49:38 You just use the "plane" keyword, followed by the formula for a plane, and you change the plane that future shapes defined exist on. And it's still declarative, because it's really just syntactic sugar 00:49:46 Ah, sweet. 00:49:53 tswett: You aren't american, are you? Just wondering. 00:50:06 * hppavilion[1] mapoles tswett 00:50:12 How did you guess? 00:50:15 Actually I am. 00:50:18 tswett: Oh. 00:50:48 I was going to mention that it's american thanksgiving today for some reason. I don't know why. 00:50:58 There's symbolic differentiation, where you apply a bunch of rules that they teach you in high school. 00:51:06 But only if you lived in a foreign country where you might not know. For some reason. 00:51:18 I probably won't know those rules of course. 00:51:19 Yup. I had the day off today for thanksgiving. 00:51:26 Ah. That's good. 00:51:53 I was actually planning to work today, but I changed my mind. :D 00:52:05 The rules definitely aren't obvious. 00:52:08 Everyone should have a day off on thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is the american holiday I think all countries should have their own version of. It's a pleasant holiday. 00:52:23 Of course the rules aren't obvious xD 00:52:26 Although the rule for addition is pretty easy. 00:52:42 Now, as you may know, the derivative of a function f is often called f'. 00:52:47 Here's the addition rule: 00:52:56 The derivative of f(x) + g(x) is f'(x) + g'(x). 00:53:02 Oh, you can ALSO sepecify a 2D shape on a plane /without/ changing hte default plane with " on plane " 00:53:08 Ah, I like that. 00:53:27 I did know that. Or, well, that's the ASCIIized symbol for it. 00:53:39 Yeah. The Unicode symbol is, uh, lemme rustle it up. 00:54:02 ′ 00:54:21 Now, here's the product rule, in case you were wondering. 00:54:35 The derivative of f(x) g(x) is f'(x) g(x) + f(x) g'(x). 00:55:13 At some point in the future, you will look at that rule and say "well, yeah, duh." 00:55:53 Anyway, the other method of differentiation. 00:55:59 I think it's called automatic differentiation. 00:56:26 Here's the idea. Take the real numbers, and add in a number called e, with the property that e^2 = 0. 00:56:39 Is that where you let Wolfram|Alpha do it for you? xD 00:56:50 Oooh, nilpotent. 00:56:54 Yup. 00:57:13 If you want to find the derivative of f at x, you start by evaluating f(x + e). 00:57:27 So, how about the derivative of x^2 at x = 3? 00:58:10 Start by evaluating (3 + e)^2 = 3^2 + 2(3)e + e^2 = 9 + 6e + e^2 = 9 + 6e. 00:58:16 Now, notice anything? 00:58:21 The derivative is the coefficient of e. 00:59:11 And hey, guess what. It always works. At least... given any ordinary function on the real numbers. 01:00:17 Oooooh 01:00:33 All right, how about the derivative of, I dunno, 5x^2 + 7x + 11? Plug in (x + e), and so you get 5(x + e)^2 + 7(x + e) + 11, which reduces as... 01:00:38 -!- Jafet has joined. 01:00:54 tswett: Is there a way to generalize the dual numbers for automatic differentiation so it works on complex functions? Or no? 01:01:24 Even if it's so complicated that it isn't useful 01:01:38 5x^2 + 2(5)xe + 5e^2 + 7x + 7e + 11. Drop the e^2 term and factor out e, it's 5x^2 + 7x + 11 + (10x + 7)e. 01:01:47 The derivative of 5x^2 + 7x + 11 is 10x + 7. 01:02:03 To generalize to the complex numbers, I think you don't even need to do anything. Just use exactly the same method. 01:02:21 Oooh, now we get polynomial/whatever-the-more-general-term-is derivatives. That looks fun. 01:02:40 Is automatic differentiation the one they never teach? If so, why the /fuck/ would they not teach us this? 01:02:55 Well, in this particular case, symbolic differentiation would have been much easier. 01:03:12 Other than because making up new numbers is weird, and it's not like we've seen that kind of thing before. 01:03:27 It's not like they've /already/ taught me about i (though I already knew about it long before) 01:03:55 I can do symbolic differentiation of that polynomial in my head in five seconds, because I know that the derivative of x^2 is 2x, the derivative of x is 1, and derivatives add together and multiply with constants nicely. 01:04:29 Strangely, it turns out that calculus on the complex numbers is ultimately much *simpler* than calculus on the real numbers. 01:04:44 -!- mauris has joined. 01:04:52 The reason for this is that all of the "nasty" cases in the real numbers are impossible to generalize to the complex numbers. 01:05:24 Ah 01:06:12 In the complex numbers, if a function is differentiable at a point, then it is also differentiable on an entire disk surrounding that point, arbitrarily many times. 01:06:18 <\oren\_> hi 01:07:11 Functions in the real numbers have no such property. A function can be differentiable just once. It can be differentiable at just one point! 01:10:28 <\oren\_> so regions of the plane where a complex function is differentiable can only be open sets? 01:11:16 <\oren\_> cool 01:11:50 \oren\_: yup. 01:15:58 Unrelated: 01:16:09 I honestly wonder if someone's going to see the output of `evil and actually take its advice. 01:16:17 <\oren\_> `evil 01:16:18 THEY HAVE MADE THEIR LAST MISTAKE. PUNISH THEM. 01:16:30 Like... all of its advice, not just the parts that aren't actually evil. 01:16:35 That would be pretty bad. 01:16:36 <\oren\_> `evil 01:16:37 SEIZE IT AND THRUST IT TO THE GROUND. 01:16:45 Because it's bad advice. 01:17:18 <\oren\_> lol, エッチ 01:17:30 And... y'know, harmful to other people if taken. 01:17:37 <\oren\_> `evil 01:17:38 YOUR ENEMIES ARE WEAK. YOU ARE STRONG. OVERCOME. 01:17:41 <\oren\_> `evil 01:17:42 THEY HAVE MADE THEIR LAST MISTAKE. PUNISH THEM. 01:17:44 <\oren\_> `evil 01:17:45 THEY HAVE MADE THEIR LAST MISTAKE. PUNISH THEM. 01:17:48 <\oren\_> `evil 01:17:49 PAIN IS NOTHING. PAIN CANNOT STOP YOU. 01:17:51 <\oren\_> `evil 01:17:52 THEY HAVE MADE THEIR LAST MISTAKE. PUNISH THEM. 01:17:54 <\oren\_> `evil 01:17:55 COMPASSION. EMPATHY. MERE WEAKNESSES. 01:17:58 There's not very much of it. 01:18:04 `ls evil 01:18:05 194 \ 295 \ 313 \ 455 \ 503 \ 602 \ 707 \ 714 \ 745 \ 960 01:18:14 You've seen half of them. 01:19:02 All right, let me take an extremely small vote, here. 01:19:08 Should I add additional evil, or not? 01:20:02 -!- \oren\_ has changed nick to \oren\. 01:20:21 \oren\_: Why did you add an _ to your name? 01:20:24 Oh, xD 01:20:38 I didn't notice that until after I sent it. 01:20:48 -!- bb010g has joined. 01:20:49 tswett: I vote with the majority 01:22:01 I say yes, because there isn't enough and therefore it repeat too much. But, my opinion also is to instead use a larger database and then just add the category tag on as well, such as "evil" and so on. 01:22:18 (You could even have more than one per each; and you could use SQLite too) 01:22:35 There. Euler has 5, 6, 7, 8, 8, 10, or 12 different ways to import things, depending on how you look at it. I think. Not sure I counted right. 01:22:48 Or Euclid, I mean. 01:23:44 You can do "import ", "import and and , etc.", or a whole host of other things 01:24:10 Including importing from a module into an existing namespace with " into " 01:24:22 Now I have to go thanksgiving. I'll be back in a bit. 01:26:20 See you later. 01:28:25 * quintopi1 sets out the boily magnet 01:28:36 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia. 01:29:02 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 01:29:02 -!- quintopia has joined. 01:30:25 All right... the fuck am I doing? I'm seriously thinking someone could look at this stuff, think about it, and turn into a mass murderer. 01:32:06 There. I deleted all of the evil advice except one. 01:32:07 `cat bin/evil 01:32:07 cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]' 01:32:11 `evil 01:32:12 KILL A PUPPY EVERY DAY. 01:32:24 `ls 01:32:25 ​:-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV 01:32:33 `ls evil 01:32:34 313 01:32:45 If people come to HackEgo seeking evil advice, they will be told only to kill puppies. 01:33:11 <\oren\> derp derp derp dedederp derp derp dederp derp derp dedederp derp derp 01:33:19 tswett is more of a cat person 01:33:28 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51bhB7EKHdQ 01:34:17 <\oren\> `quote 01:34:17 1021) ...I'm organising a picnic on Facebook in rhyming couplets 01:35:16 `good 01:35:16 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: good: not found 01:35:31 `run echo 'cat "$(find good -type f | shuf -n1)"' > bin/good 01:35:33 No output. 01:35:33 `run mkdir good 01:35:34 No output. 01:36:25 All right, someone give me a bunch of random 3-digit numbers. 01:36:40 Don't you have your own dice? 01:36:46 786 755 440 643 726 184 007 132 604 351. Thank you. 01:37:04 `run echo 'Empathize. Always empathize.' > good/786 01:37:06 No output. 01:37:07 `good 01:37:08 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/good: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/good: cannot execute: Permission denied 01:37:13 `run chmod +x bin/good 01:37:15 No output. 01:37:16 `good 01:37:17 Empathize. Always empathize. 01:37:33 Are you going to add AmigaMML into the list of software that is using tau instead of (or in addition to) pi? 01:38:31 `run echo 'It takes strength to admit your own weaknesses.' > good/755 01:38:33 No output. 01:38:33 tswett: Still my opinion I think you should put all in one file and then make SQL query to select them (I have used ORDER BY RANDOM() LIMIT 1 to select entry at random; add the WHERE clause as well to select or deselect tags or other stuff 01:38:59 But SQL is obsolete, man. 01:39:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:39:15 I think not 01:40:49 `run echo 'Your friends are strong. Take their help.' > good/295 01:40:51 No output. 01:41:03 I'm trying to think of a "good" suggestion corresponding to each "evil" suggestion. 01:41:30 Then maybe you should use the corresponding numbers too? 01:41:53 tswett, you realise you'll have to downcase `good for symmetry 01:42:34 `run echo 'Feel wronged? They made a mistake. See things from their side, and forgive them.' > 503 01:42:36 No output. 01:42:39 zzo38: I'm doing that. 01:42:46 Whoops. 01:42:50 `run mv 503 good/503 01:42:52 No output. 01:43:53 Hm. evil/503 and evil/960 are pretty similar; they'd pretty much have the same corresponding "good" suggestion. 01:46:04 `run echo 'There is a way out. Finding it will be difficult. It may be the hardest thing you've ever done. Find it anyway.' > good/544 01:46:04 bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file 01:46:21 `run echo 'There is a way out. Finding it will be difficult. It may be the hardest thing you'\''ve ever done. Find it anyway.' > good/544 01:46:23 No output. 01:51:33 In SQL you can just write '' for a single ' and you don't have to do like that instead (I think also in Pascal you can write '' for a single ' too, but I am not sure) 01:53:49 PowerShell too. 01:54:04 Of course, I could have just used double quotes around the whole thing. 01:54:14 But man, single quotes are so snazzy. 01:54:17 yeah but that has its own issues 01:54:31 i remember sam hughes tried to figure out how to quote a generic string in bash 01:54:43 `run echo "I found $20 on the ground the other day." 01:54:44 I found 0 on the ground the other day. 01:54:45 he concluded that you had to just put \ before every non-alphanumeric 01:54:56 Ooh boy. 01:55:24 http://qntm.org/bash 01:55:27 You're talking about the Canadian Minister of Militia and Defence during World War I, right? 01:55:42 If you use " in the shell scripts then it does other thing inside the quote too though anyways 01:57:50 (Such as the example above) 02:02:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:04:12 <\oren\> `run echo I\ found\ \$20\ on\ the\ ground\ the\ other\ day 02:04:12 I found $20 on the ground the other day 02:04:29 <\oren\> `run echo \"I\ found\ \$20\ on\ the\ ground\ the\ other\ day 02:04:30 ​"I found $20 on the ground the other day 02:04:44 <\oren\> `run echo \"I\ found\ \$20\ on\ the\ ground\ the\ other\ day\"\ he\ said\. 02:04:45 ​"I found $20 on the ground the other day" he said. 02:04:52 <\oren\> yeah 02:05:35 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:07:02 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:07:06 print eval(chr(37).join([``'print eval(chr(37).join([``%s``]*2))[1:-1]'``]*2))[1:-1] 02:08:41 -!- andrew has joined. 02:15:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:18:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:26:55 <\oren\> `unidecode 巣 02:26:56 ​[U+5DE3 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5DE3] 02:28:24 -!- boily has joined. 02:32:53 <\oren\> `` unidecode 底府度庫庭康建式役径待徒得 | sed -e 's/\(\[\|CJK\ \|UNIFIED \|IDEOGRAPH-[0-9A-F]\+\]\)/' 02:32:54 sed: -e expression #1, char 50: unterminated `s' command \ close failed in file object destructor: \ sys.excepthook is missing \ lost sys.stderr 02:33:00 <\oren\> `` unidecode 底府度庫庭康建式役径待徒得 | sed -e 's/\(\[\|CJK\ \|UNIFIED \|IDEOGRAPH-[0-9A-F]\+\]\)//' 02:33:01 U+5E95 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5E95] [U+5E9C CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5E9C] [U+5EA6 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EA6] [U+5EAB CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EAB] [U+5EAD CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EAD] [U+5EB7 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EB7] [U+5EFA CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EFA] [U+5F0F CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5F0F] [U+5F79 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5F79] [U+5F84 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRA 02:33:05 <\oren\> `` unidecode 底府度庫庭康建式役径待徒得 | sed -e 's/\(\[\|CJK\ \|UNIFIED \|IDEOGRAPH-[0-9A-F]\+\]\)//g' 02:33:06 U+5E95 U+5E9C U+5EA6 U+5EAB U+5EAD U+5EB7 U+5EFA U+5F0F U+5F79 U+5F84 U+5F85 U+5F92 U+5F97 02:36:13 he\\oren\. still kanjifying your font? 02:36:33 <\oren\> yah 02:37:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:38:29 Oh, NOW I'm back 02:40:27 hppavellon[1]! 02:41:33 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:42:36 Hello boily! 02:42:42 Whoops 02:42:44 Helloily! 02:42:57 ^^ 02:43:58 -!- tromp has joined. 02:43:59 boily: I'm making a usable programming language based on geometry! 02:44:03 (Declarative, naturally) 02:46:30 boily: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sEyRHE3CLyVNwrkh-jsL32MIhtrdUjZ7WMVV8MAd2Kw/edit?usp=sharing 02:48:09 hppavilion[1]: too late. euclid alreayd did it. 02:48:23 newshellom. 02:48:32 newsham: The language is /called/ Euclid, so yeah xD 02:48:55 but this other language was /made by/ euclid 02:49:02 a few thousand years ago 02:54:42 newsham: Yes, but it can't be used to make a computer say "Hello, World" 02:54:53 Unless you count a human as a computer, of course 02:56:21 IRP! 02:56:31 "H" has two parallel segments and a perpendicular segment between them 02:56:36 I think we could construct this :) 02:56:45 I don't see much more challenging in "ello, World" 02:58:15 newsham: Yes, but can Euclid's system to asyncronous socketry? 02:59:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:00:28 fungot: is your socketry asynchronous? 03:00:28 boily: if gdb doesn't work on paragraph answers to your questions as useful? 03:00:46 boily: Design question: When sets or vectors have an operation performed on them, they have special meanings where it's the operation done on each item in them relative to the other value. I want to have special operators marked that don't behave like this, namely />=/<=/=/!= for sets, but I also want the normal meaning to be available. How should I go about this? My current best idea is to specially mark the operators with a symbol, 03:00:46 e.g. the $ prefix or a . suffix. What do you think, as a randomly selected opinion? 03:02:06 pointwise operators from Matlab, eg with vectors u and v, u .* v will produce pointwise multiplication of them. 03:02:06 $ for "special" or "set" might work... 03:02:17 Yes 03:02:40 But I want to use typable characters for subset/superset/etc, and <> seem like the ideal characters. 03:03:09 But unless there's some sneaky but logical workaround, the only way to make it work is with a special marker in the operator name 03:03:13 "c" for subset. ɔ might be harder to get :P 03:03:36 (and of course c̄ for proper subset.) 03:03:53 no sockets 03:03:59 but enough silliness, I'm yawning my jaw off. time to sleep. 03:04:00 boily: But that's not easily typable, unless you're in the future using the Mathematician's Keyboard that I'm going to make someone start selling 03:04:04 Fine 03:04:10 I'll just figure it out on my own xD 03:04:23 at least i'm not aware of any ancient greek socket implementation 03:04:25 you may want to check out the space cadet keyboard :D 03:04:29 -!- boily has quit (Quit: POSITIVE CHICKEN). 03:04:34 Who's the Anonymous Nyan Cat? 03:04:39 Out of curiousity 03:07:31 Which may or may not have killed the cat. Not the Nyan Cat, though. 03:35:33 What should I use for the ASCII midpoint operator? 03:35:55 Currently I'm using _|_, but that looks like perpendicular and, more importantly, is stupid 03:36:04 For that matter, what should I use for the unicode midpoint operator? 03:36:27 Actually, ⧷ looks good for Unicode midpoint 03:42:06 <\oren\> what's a midpoint operator? 03:42:33 <\oren\> `unidecode c̄ 03:42:34 ​[U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+0304 COMBINING MACRON] 03:47:50 \oren\: In Euclid, it's a unary operator that accepts a line and returns the point at the midpoint of the line 03:49:09 <\oren\> then how about -| 03:49:24 \oren\: Thank you! That works! 03:50:07 Oh, it doesn't accept a line, it accepts a segment 03:50:14 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:51:10 I need a term that encompasses lines, rays, and segments 03:51:59 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 03:52:42 -!- tromp has joined. 03:52:54 "line_like" works, I suppose 03:53:11 <\oren\> linear 03:53:16 <\oren\> lineal 03:53:23 <\oren\> rectus 03:53:55 \oren\: How about a symbol for perpendicular in ASCII? 03:54:13 <\oren\> _L 03:54:20 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 03:54:27 \oren\: Don't think it can have letters, and I'd avoid underscores 03:54:51 + might work, but it'd be hard to parse properly 03:54:57 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 03:55:05 Or maybe not 03:55:35 Wait, but perpendicular is binary 03:55:39 So yeah, it'll work easily 04:05:30 -!- andrew has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:06:35 -!- andrew has joined. 04:13:14 <\oren\> added some kanji and ⇜⇝⇞⇟ which were missing from the arrows block 04:27:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:37:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:37:56 \oren\: Miscellaneous Mathematical Symbols B is missing, in case you weren't aware 04:38:20 At least, RULE-DELAYED and REVERSE SOLIDUS WITH HORIZONTAL STROKE are. 04:39:12 I'm trying to figure out where to go with Euclid to keep it nearly fully declarative like Haskell is... 04:39:34 Obviously, IO is a problem for declarativeness, but I'll deal with that. 04:39:49 Well, I guess it's only a BIG problem for functional languages 05:07:13 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 05:18:32 tswett: Are you active right now? 05:21:25 Hm... 05:21:33 Surreal Geometry might be an interesting subject 05:22:35 Or entirely meaningless, more likely 05:25:39 -!- ^v has joined. 05:45:58 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:57:22 -!- bb010g has joined. 06:23:36 -!- kragniz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:23:41 -!- newsham has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:24:10 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:24:11 -!- andrew has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:24:12 -!- digitalc1ld has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:27:37 Do you think my "Eldritch Veil" card should have shroud? 06:30:41 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:31:42 Hm... 06:36:38 -!- andrew has joined. 06:37:57 -!- gniourf has quit (*.net *.split). 06:37:57 -!- vifino has quit (*.net *.split). 06:40:35 -!- gniourf has joined. 06:51:59 -!- kragniz has joined. 06:59:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:04:58 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 07:19:26 -!- digitalcold has joined. 07:31:13 -!- ^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:34:20 zzo38: I don't really understand Eldritch Veil. What is that useful for, except for controlling another player? 07:34:33 -!- Patashu has joined. 07:40:46 argh, stupid unusable webpage 07:43:47 That was one of my intentions yes; I don't know if that makes it overpowered. But there is other possibility too if sacrificing something can help you to win before it resolves, or maybe just use with affinity, or whatever something else 07:44:38 I think it is not too much overpower since you will need some other cards too but I am not quite sure. If it had shroud though then you cannot target it with Donate or whatever. 07:45:59 Some of the card I put favor texts now do you like that one, or other comment/suggestion even of the newer cards? 07:46:34 but isn't there already some artifact for this that has more uses? 07:47:30 "win before it resolves" -- that is VERY unlikely 07:47:30 `ping 07:47:31 pong 07:49:26 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:55:58 there are already lots of artifacts for {0} if you only need them for affinity: Accorder's Shield (an equipment from M14), Bone Saw (inverse Shuko from Conflux), Darksteel relic (a useless artifact from NPH), Everflowing Chalice (mana producer), Fountain of Youth, |Herbal Poultice, Kite Shield (another equipment), Lodestone Bauble (bauble means it lets you draw a card), \ 07:59:07 Yes, it is unlikely I suppose, I don't know if it need to be changed at all actually 07:59:40 -!- relrod has quit (Excess Flood). 07:59:47 -!- relrod_ has joined. 07:59:49 -!- relrod_ has quit (Changing host). 07:59:49 -!- relrod_ has joined. 07:59:56 -!- relrod_ has changed nick to relrod. 08:00:08 Lodestone Bauble (bauble means it lets you draw a card), Memnite (the 1/1 creature), Mishra's Bauble (this one is expensive, but also the best bauble), Ornithopter, Phyrexian Walker, Shield Sphere (a useful wall), Sigil of Distinction (an equipment that's useless for {0}), \ 08:03:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 08:03:27 Spellbook, Spidersilk Net (wow so many equipments), Tormod's Crypt (this one is famous and got reprinted a lot, used against graveyard-related decks), Urza's Bauble (almost as good as Mishra's, but cheap), Welding Jar (this is even sort of useful in an affinity deck, though not as useful as many artifacts for {1} or {2}), Zuran's Orb. 08:03:50 Wow, I didn't know there were so many. The only one I currently own in my collection are Ornithopter. 08:04:13 Maybe we should invent our own M:tG-like card game 08:04:41 With strange rules and cards based on memees 08:04:43 *memes 08:04:45 Or something 08:05:17 hppavilion[1]: I was thinking of a nethack-themed one sort of, which I could call “Nethack: the Card Game” 08:05:18 Possibly a lot of programming jokes, perhaps even build programming into the card game 08:05:20 I have some ideas but I couldn't get it to work reasonably yet. 08:05:53 ("foo" would be a morphic card, which does something morphy) 08:06:00 Yes, nethack gives all the memes. 08:06:58 What /is/ nethack, exactly? 08:07:27 Ah. 08:07:32 (Yay for wiki) 08:07:35 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 08:08:10 hppavilion[1]: head over to #nethack or #nethack4 and ask there 08:08:10 it's a cultic game 08:08:10 video game 08:08:10 b_jonas: What should the data model of this card game be? xD 08:08:21 I figured 08:08:26 Based on google 08:08:48 Oooh, esocards should definitely feature Nomicy goodness 08:09:13 what do you mean by "data model"? 08:09:32 b_jonas: What is the flow of "information" within the card game? 08:09:42 Perhaps it could change based on card playing... 08:10:33 I've never played one of those trading card games, so it'll probably come out horribly xD 08:10:44 hppavilion[1]: I don't really know enough about that card game yet. I have problems with the basic workings and base rules, not the individual cards. 08:11:10 b_jonas: Which card game? 08:11:24 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jja2U09wCrBVdGJxtiNBjCd9N8fE1mjDvNhN8eyDaLE/edit?usp=sharing is where I'm compiling ideas, if you happen to think of anything 08:12:31 hppavilion[1]: the hypothetical Nethack: the Card Game 08:12:46 Ah 08:13:32 Oh, were you confused by "what is the flow of \"information\" within the card game"? That was me explaining what I meant by data model within a card game 08:13:36 wait, did you mean M:tG or some other trading card game (Pokémon TCG, Yu Gi Oh, etc, there are a lot these days) 08:14:39 b_jonas: I meant the card game I'm starting work on right now and am likely never going to finish, more than likely abandoning within a few days at most 08:14:42 Esocards 08:14:54 Item #1 on the idea list: Get a better name 08:15:37 hppavilion[1]: no no no 08:15:37 hppavilion[1]: you decide the name LAST 08:16:00 after you know what the game is like 08:16:00 until then, a development codename is fine 08:16:05 b_jonas: Well yes, but it's priority 1, meaning as soon as it's possible to name it's the highest priority 08:16:31 Renaming is always an option, unless it happens to get incredibly popular and it stops being an option 08:16:41 if you don't like "esocards" as a development codename, just take a random name from some epic fiction that has tons of named characters. 08:16:41 don't choose a popular name like "Athena" which has hundreds of things named of them 08:17:00 Yeah, "esocards" is good for now 08:17:15 seriously, I don't get why people still keep naming everything Athene or Athena 08:17:38 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:20:38 So one of my ideas is that you need to have a moderate-to-advanced understanding of computer science to play at an effective level xD 08:20:46 (Mind you, Mr. Orbán's government naming everything from Széchenyi István is also bad. I'm especially pissed off by the jerk move where they renamed Roosevelt tér (in Budapest).) 08:22:45 I mean, Pallas Athene already has a freaking city and a noble metal named of him, isn't that enough? 08:22:45 hppavilion[1]: what? to play what? 08:23:05 b_jonas: Esocards 08:24:28 oh, you want such a card game? why not just take Lambda: the Gathering for that? 08:24:32 hppavilion[1]: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lambda:_the_Gathering 08:24:56 -!- EgoBot has joined. 08:25:36 b_jonas: That works, but I feel like spending some time and attempting to develop my own. A needlessly complicated one at that. 08:25:47 With data structures and semi-thue systems and shit 08:27:39 Also, I'd like it to be human-playable 08:28:06 It could be used, not as a gentle introduction to computer science, but as a deep-immersion introduction. 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joined. 12:49:23 -!- Hoolootwo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:52:24 -!- puckipedia has joined. 12:54:51 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 12:55:53 -!- gamemanj has joined. 13:02:50 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:03:19 `HNQ 13:03:20 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: HNQ: not found 13:03:39 `? HNQ 13:03:40 HNQ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:04:12 13:04:29 -!- Deewiant has joined. 13:07:33 -!- gniourf has joined. 13:07:36 -!- mauris has joined. 13:08:09 `wisdom 13:08:11 word/word (Microsoft Word) was a text-editor for animated texts but not anymore. 13:08:14 `wisdom 13:08:15 wise/Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise. 13:08:17 `wisdom 13:08:19 thausiblee/A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action. 13:13:57 -!- mauris_ has joined. 13:14:23 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:19:38 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:21:01 -!- mauris has joined. 13:22:59 -!- MoALTz has joined. 13:23:30 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:24:28 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 13:25:35 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:25:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:27:26 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:30:16 -!- newsham has joined. 13:47:16 -!- oerjan_ has joined. 13:47:58 wat, is every freenode server flaky today 13:48:29 i guess that explains the huge log, it's probably all netsplits 13:52:20 -!- oerjan has quit (*.net *.split). 13:52:20 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (*.net *.split). 13:52:20 -!- j-bot has quit (*.net *.split). 13:52:40 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan. 13:55:06 -!- heroux 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has changed nick to oerjan. 14:55:35 -!- sixtustha51 has joined. 14:57:40 [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45680&oldid=45649 * Luis Mendo * (+226) /* Specification */ 14:58:31 [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45681&oldid=45680 * Luis Mendo * (+8) /* Compiler */ 15:05:30 `relcome sixtustha51 15:05:30 @ping 15:05:30 pong 15:05:32 ​sixtustha51: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 15:05:51 that looks lagged 15:11:32 a bit 15:13:06 [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45682&oldid=45681 * Luis Mendo * (+1) /* Specification */ 15:27:03 -!- mauris has joined. 15:34:10 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:34:54 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 15:42:51 The FSA I posted yesterday is incorrect... 15:43:11 (OS, 5) should go to OI, not OO 15:45:33 -!- sixtustha51 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:48:23 Fixed it now 15:55:05 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:55:44 -!- Welo has joined. 16:00:17 @tell tswett In the complex numbers, if a function is differentiable at a point, then it is also differentiable on an entire disk surrounding that point, arbitrarily many times. <-- i don't think that's quite right... you need in a disk to start with. 16:00:17 Consider it noted. 16:07:53 -!- spiette has joined. 16:19:24 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 265 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scoofy has joined. 16:58:38 -!- erdic has joined. 16:58:38 -!- trn has joined. 16:58:38 -!- Nithogg has joined. 16:58:38 -!- shikhin has joined. 17:01:55 -!- j-bot has joined. 17:02:06 -!- bb010g has joined. 17:18:47 oerjan: I think that works if f is continuous 17:18:59 -!- mauris_ has joined. 17:19:27 coppro: no way 17:19:42 no? 17:20:12 now if the function is _twice_ differentiable in a point, that might be enough 17:20:34 I dunno 17:24:48 -!- bb010g has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:24:48 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:26:11 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:27:53 -!- mauris has quit (*.net *.split). 17:31:37 -!- bb010g has joined. 17:31:46 -!- trn has quit (Excess Flood). 17:36:14 -!- trn has joined. 17:37:31 b_jonas: if it's twice differentiable, then by definition, it must be differentiable in a neighborhood, so yeah. 17:37:33 -!- relrod_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:38:13 -!- relrod_ has joined. 17:38:15 -!- relrod_ has quit (Changing host). 17:38:15 -!- relrod_ has joined. 17:40:28 coppro: even with continuity, there's just too many ways you could mess it up in a neighboorhood. or put a different way, you can "obviously" make a function that has derivative 0 in a point, but completely chaotic (apart from being continuous) near it. 17:41:39 -!- trn has quit (Excess Flood). 17:42:12 hm, i think abs(z)^2 is an example (not chaotic, but not differentiable near it either) 17:42:26 *near 0 17:42:27 -!- trn has joined. 17:42:40 -!- bb010g has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:43:08 oerjan: right. 17:43:10 (it's _real_ differentiable everywhere, off course.) 17:44:38 being the same a z * conj(z) 17:44:40 *as 17:45:20 *of 17:47:00 -!- trn has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:50:56 -!- trn has joined. 17:51:20 -!- bb010g has joined. 17:51:57 http://arin.ga/4XHhbc is quite possibly the most elegant-looking fizzbuzz I have written 17:55:07 O KAY 17:57:06 -!- trn has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:57:08 Second Bargain {2W} Instant ;; Target opponent draws a card. ;; You gain 8 life if it is your main phase and there aren't any other objects on the stack, otherwise you gain 5 life. 17:58:23 It also runs in O(n log n) time, which is much more efficient than other fizzbuzz programs I have written 18:00:11 i guess technically that's optimal, because the output has O(n log n) length 18:01:48 Hmm, that is a good point 18:01:50 s/O/Theta/ or something 18:02:17 -!- trn has joined. 18:03:11 -!- Hoolootwo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:03:35 -!- trn has quit (Excess Flood). 18:05:30 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 18:08:53 yay for optimal fizzbuzz! 18:10:05 -!- trn has joined. 18:10:38 :D 18:15:47 The official "Bargain" card isn't quite good so I made up this new one is better? What is your opinion of such thing? 18:16:23 -!- Hoolootwo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:19:39 -!- trn has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:19:40 -!- Hooloo42 has joined. 18:19:46 -!- trn has joined. 18:19:48 zzo38: unplayably bad 18:21:09 2WW gain 8 life would probably be about fair, maybe 3W 18:21:28 and even that would be a weak card 18:22:47 I changed it to an instant rather than a sorcery, and if used as a sorcery you gain 1 additional life point (otherwise you gain less) 18:25:00 I would still use it though 18:26:20 But do you think there are other changes? Even if other than how you specify? 18:29:21 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:29:37 I think this "Second Bargain" is much better than the ordinary "Bargain" 18:31:46 (But I am also the guy who would play something like "Fateseal 1, and then target opponent draws a card") 18:33:49 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 18:33:54 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 18:42:28 -!- mauris has joined. 18:43:52 -!- MoALTz_ has changed nick to MoALTz. 19:19:13 -!- relrod_ has changed nick to relrod. 19:19:27 coppro: unplayably bad in limited or constructed? 19:19:36 it's life gain, so there's a big difference 19:21:02 As for lifegain, I prefer black's method. Drain life from opponent or from a creature. 19:27:00 It's funny to see mathematics from 1992 typeset in TeX in the computer modern font, but with professionally hand-drawn figures 19:35:59 I also want to know, it can be different in limited or constructed, as well as other stuff I think 19:37:21 Also this new one is forcing opponent to draw a card as an instant, while the old one is not an instant. 19:38:16 However I made up several more new cards too. Some of which now have favor texts and/or notes too. 19:43:43 -!- Lorenzo64 has joined. 19:54:17 -!- Taneb has changed nick to nvd. 20:02:26 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:10:47 zzo38: to compare, there's an instant for 2WW that gains you 7 life, and an instant for 2W that gains you 6 life and has an advantage. 20:11:08 I don't know about lifegain cards with serious drawbacks though. 20:11:49 Oh, I mean, I do know about some. I'm happy to sacrifice my infinite toughness creature to gain infinite life from it. 20:13:02 I use Animal Boneyard and Starlit Sanctum for that 20:17:09 let me see what else I could use for that slot. I have a Condemn, but that only works while attacking, which restricts my options. 20:18:35 Note that there are many different formats, not only Constructed and Limited but even many different kind of Limited formats such as Draft, Rochester Draft, Team Rochester Draft, Sealed, Duplicate Sealed, etc. And then, there is duel decks designing 20:18:40 there's an aura called Death Watch 20:19:19 OK I looked at that; I like that too 20:19:21 zzo38: sure, I said "limited or constructed" because life gain cards like that are famously very bad in limited and only somewhat bad in constructed 20:19:59 the advantage of Death Watch is that it works on any creature (not only clerics) and has a low mana cost, but the serious drawback is that it's off-color 20:20:15 that deck must use white to get the infinite toughness creature 20:21:44 oh, but the problem with Death Watch is that if I put it to the creature, then my opponents won't kill that creature that turn, so I won't actually gain the life 20:22:09 there's Devour Flesh 20:22:12 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 20:23:36 How bad it is can also depend on circumstances though. Death Watch can be good but it is not an instant (although you may be able to cause it to trigger as an instant) 20:24:23 it won't work, because I can't kill the creature. or at least, I can kill it by sacrificing it to another card to gain life, but then I don't need the aura 20:24:50 there's this Disciple of Griselbrand 20:25:22 which has the advantage that it's a cleric 20:25:33 and works at instant speed 20:25:43 but it's also off-color 20:25:51 and a bit too much mana 20:26:01 let me see what else there is 20:26:10 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: rebooting). 20:29:38 There's this strange card called Life Chisel, which is surprisingly cheap (card price) given that it's an Antiquities uncommon, with the drawback that it works only in the upkeep so it restricts my options to the Kors as opposed to Shuko, and also costs {4} which is too much.] 20:29:47 -!- Lorenzo64 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:30:21 -!- Melvar has joined. 20:31:16 there's this so called Miren, the Moaning Well which activates for {3} but otherwise is good, but it's a somewhat pricy rare 20:32:26 Proper Burial triggers when the creature dies, so it's like Death Watch, but it's for {3W} 20:34:04 There's Sheltering Word which is interesting because it is of dual use: I can use it either to protect my creature, or to gain life, either of which is useful in this deck. 20:34:09 But it's green. 20:34:59 Play all-colors deck 20:35:18 no. this one definitely can't work all colors. 20:35:33 it might work in two colors, maybe, but even that would strain it. 20:36:15 Oh, and Worthy Cause! I actually use that in the deck and I forgot. 20:37:05 Ok, then it seems there's nothing better for this really. I just need to buy more copies of Worthy Cause and of Nomads En-Kor. 20:37:29 Plus replace the few cards that aim to win after I go off with infinite life. 20:38:07 In particular, Elixir of Immortality had not yet been printed when I made that deck, so I have much worse replacements. 20:41:05 Oh, and four of the two mana Kor too, probably, if I don't have four yet. 20:41:31 Warrior en-Kor 20:43:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:45:08 Hmm, let me check how many I have of each of the cards. I think I have 1 Worthy cause, 4 Starlit Sanctum, dunno how many Animal Boneyard, 1 Nomads en-Kor, at least one Warrior en-Kor, 4 Shuko, 4 of that cleric thingy, and 20:45:24 oh, and I have to buy these newfangled newly printed cards that are like the cleric but for cheaper 20:45:47 I have some other old one, but I think I've looked at the new ones for that slot and they're better. 20:46:00 Funny though: 20:46:52 Another format can be duel decks with a duplicate sealed sideboard which may be swapped in before the game is started 20:47:27 I make an infinite mana deck based on Krosan Restorer, and later they print the much better Arbor Elf and now a two mana version too. 20:48:35 I build a deck based on two creatures that can block any number of creatures (Wall of Glare and Ironfist Crusher) and later they printed multiple cheaper white creatures where that ability was priced lower. 20:49:32 And I build this infinite toughness deck with Daru Spiritualist and whatever the other similar creature is, and they print a better one. 20:50:09 Do you like any of my rule/format variant? Or if you have suggestions for changing the "Traitor Scheming" game if you think there is something wrong with it 20:50:28 Maybe if I want a better version of any card printed, I just need to build a combo deck with it and then wait ten years? 20:50:37 less than ten years really 20:50:39 -!- idris-bot has joined. 20:51:19 zzo38: where's this Traitor Scheming game described? 20:51:26 or other variants? 20:54:38 gopher://zzo38computer.org/0textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/traitor_scheming.var 20:55:35 (Currently it doesn't work on HTTP due to filename extension and I am not sure how to fix it. If you know how to make everything there just text/plain then you can tell me please, it can work with both HTTP and Gopher then) 20:56:44 I might be able to help with the Apache thing, but I'll check it out from Gopher for now I think 20:58:40 zzo38: is the 0 part of the url? 20:58:50 I've got it without the 0 20:59:00 but maybe gopher urls work that way 20:59:04 b_jonas: Yes, but it is the type code and is not a part of the selector string. If you are using raw connections, omit the 0 20:59:10 ok 20:59:17 I've got it without the 0 20:59:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:00:09 In any software that uses URLs, the 0 should be required; omit the 0 if you are not using a URL 21:02:20 zzo38: as for the apache, edit your apache configuration file (or .htaccess file if the apache config allows that) to add (possibly only for some directories) either "AddType text/plain .var" or "DefaultType text/plain" or "ForceType text/plain" 21:03:58 I did the last one in .htaccess and that changed the icons but did not prevent the error. I will try the second one too to see if it works, although I do want text/plain for everything under the textfile directory and its subdirectories (but not other directories). 21:04:30 No, it doesn't work 21:05:56 zzo38: you may need to change your main apache config then 21:05:58 a moment 21:06:34 It clearly does recognize "ForceType text/plain" because it is changing the icons for all of the files to the text files icon 21:07:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 21:07:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 21:07:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 21:07:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 21:07:12 zzo38: does AddType work? if not, find the AllowOverride line in your main apache config and can you tell me what it says? 21:07:21 there maybe more than one, directory specific. 21:08:16 AllowOverride All for /var/www/ 21:08:31 zzo38: and no other options? hmm 21:08:54 Actually, I now added: RemoveHandler .var to the same /var/www/textfile/.htaccess file after ForceType text/plain and now it works. 21:09:03 zzo38: have you checked if there's something in the error logs about config file errors when you restart apache and then load ... 21:09:07 oh good 21:09:42 indeed it works on http now 21:09:54 so I rememebered wrong 21:10:06 I have 3 Worthy Cause, 4 Starlit Sanctum, 4 Animal Boneyard, 21:13:06 2 Nomads en-Kor, 21:23:38 A fun solution for the Clojure threading macros in Heresy: https://github.com/jarcane/heresy/blob/f58415a79fd9ec78e5f16eeeb79b3e8efa845e82/examples/pipeland.hsy 21:27:13 Do you like this kind of game? It is the Archenemy game but no shared team turns are used and there might be one traitor. If the scheming player receives a traitor card then he knows that he plays alone but other player don't know. If all players receive blank card, then nobody knows until the game is finished. 21:30:20 4 Daru Spiritualist, 1 Warrior en-Kor, 4 Outrider en-Kor, (4 Palace Guard which is the card they printed later than I made the Wall of Glare deck), 21:33:35 4 Task Force, 4 Spirit en-Kor, 4 Lancers en-Kor (these expensive ones aren't useful for this deck of course). 21:33:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:34:22 And 4 Shuko. 21:35:39 Didn't I have Icatian Javeliners though? 21:35:47 I don't need it for a deck, just find it strange 21:36:05 Icatian Javelineers 21:37:12 zzo38 mtg werewolf? 21:37:52 quintopia: what about werewolves? 21:38:21 Oh, I see! 21:38:25 I have another Javelineer 21:38:31 Elite Javelineer 21:39:02 What's this about werewolf? 21:39:04 9ED 21:39:56 what werewolf? all I see is a well-reputed scientist. no werewolf here. not even at full moon. 21:40:30 did you know that /r/incest exists? 21:41:16 (Homicidal Brute isn't a werewolf) 21:42:20 (nor is Delver of Secrets) 21:48:11 izabera: I did not but I do not think I am much surprised 21:49:30 zzo38: re traitor variant, interesting. I've played or seen some games with hidden roles and they're often interesting: mafia, the card game version of whatever that western themed game is called, the gold miners card game. 21:50:13 s/western/wild west/ 21:50:55 and it's called Bang 21:53:50 Napoleon card game is a trick game with ordinary playing cards, where the declarer names a card and whoever holds that card is the declarer's partner; other players do not know who is his partner until the card is played (even the declarer doesn't know, unless he names a card he holds and therefore plays alone), although for example if he says six of diamonds and another player fails to follow diamonds they can know he isn't them 21:55:19 zzo38: oh yes, there's that too 21:57:43 four-player Snapszer, a trick game with cards has that mechanic 21:58:40 play with the top 24 cards, deal 6 to each, declarer calls card from first 3, that card decides his partner and its color is the trump color 21:59:13 (this isn't meant as a complete spec) 22:00:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:02:37 Ugh, I think my Gmail got hacked yesterday 22:03:04 And the only place I put my gmail password was Bluestacks, which I thought was safe because I had friends who used it 22:03:33 /had/ 22:04:59 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:05:20 let me see what the newer cards with an ability like Daru Spiritualist and Task Force were. 22:05:58 Luckily, I had a backup email on Yahoo 22:06:15 So hopefully they didn't harvest all my contacts and start sending them spam, possibly even from my account 22:06:43 There's an old card Angelic Protector but that's not better than those two. 22:07:47 Perhaps a trading card game mixed with an actualy, WoW-like (that is, moving a character around) RPG would be interesting. Then again, that's probably been done a million times. 22:08:56 There's Horobi, Death's Wail which is really interesting (even if black) 22:09:19 [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45683&oldid=42295 * 162.231.140.49 * (+3731) 22:10:13 Oooh 22:10:19 Someone updated ~ATH 22:10:20 for a different deck, and the Kors and Shuko won't target creatures the opponent controls, but I think there are other nice options for triggering Horobi 22:11:11 even if not quite free 22:11:24 I've figured out how to make a Fungeoid IDE 22:11:47 1) Insert-based editing. You don't have to hit backspace to change characters 22:12:09 2) ctrl- changes the direction the insert cursor moves when you hit keys 22:12:23 I have thought of a idea of a kind of game with both the card and with board with pieces that can be moved, but this idea of game is probably too complicated to do without computer 22:12:33 (Based on something I dreamt) 22:12:52 oh, there is a free way too: Martyrdom 22:13:48 and Soltari Guerillas 22:15:12 zzo38: Have you ever heard of Knightmare? 22:15:20 Yes I think so 22:15:35 Yeah, that's a game like that. 22:16:09 I think I'll incorporate so many different game-type features into Esocards that it's impossible for a normal human being to understand the true state of the game. THAT is my goal. 22:17:04 Actually mine has many differences including hex grid and possibly one cell you might know what is there but opponent doesn't know, and the state of one individual cell is also complicated 22:17:17 You know, to cause a sense of Awe and stuff 22:17:18 Oooh 22:17:20 Here's an idea 22:17:38 hmm, strange. apaprently there's no more of this kind 22:17:39 What's the name for that set of shapes that infinitely tiles the plane without ever reapeating? 22:17:43 *repeating 22:18:11 Angelic Protector and the two I have are the only ones it seems 22:18:25 I thought they printed another one or two 22:19:04 -!- Froox has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 22:19:20 [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45684&oldid=45683 * Hppavilion1 * (+54) Alternative to suicide 22:19:57 Index was reprinted in M13? oh right, I think I noticed this already, and was surprised about it already. 22:20:32 zzo38: What if we were to make a tesselational-position board game that used Penrose Tiling as its board form? 22:20:38 (This board game I was describing is "Slugterra Hex Game") 22:20:48 hppavilion[1]: You can try that, OK 22:21:01 I think I might 22:21:30 How is pieces movement then? Just to cells sharing an edge, or what if you want to do like chess with rook, bishop, knight, etc? 22:22:39 zzo38: That's the problem. I don't think Chess could be done normally; you'd have to invent new pieces with more penrosian mathematical properties 22:22:44 hppavilion[1]: but which Penrose tiling? there's a continuum many of them. would you use a fixed one, or one chosen randomly at the start of each game? 22:23:09 (obviously less than continuum many if you have a bounded size game board) 22:23:14 b_jonas: Probably a randomly-selected one, fitting certain rules if necessary. 22:23:32 hppavilion[1]: right 22:24:17 Yes, it could be a kind of chess variant based on such Penrose geometry. 22:24:50 Alternatively, I might use a fixed one for simplicity 22:25:01 they are all very similar of course, so it's like Agent Smith 22:25:13 But it would still have randomness featured: a fixed tiling, but not always the same part 22:25:25 zzo38: Not just a chess variant; I think I'm going to add this to Esocards 22:25:39 um, I mean Agent Smith in the sequel, when he plays Mirror Entity 22:27:04 OK do it that way then. 22:28:14 hppavilion[1]: different tilings, or different parts of the same infinite or very large tiling, that's practically the same thing for a finite game 22:28:59 b_jonas: Practically, except that different parts of the same tiling will still fit some sort of pattern, even if it's not periodic 22:30:09 Here's a feature: 22:30:30 You can execute spells, which are basically just a command prompt, by typing into the command prompt 22:30:35 yes, but all those different tilings are compatible and any bounded part of one can be found in any other tiling anyway, so that's already true. 22:31:09 Additionally, the game has a central Semi-thue system that modifies spells before they are executed. The STS affects all players. May only hold temporarily. 22:31:26 b_jonas: That's what I was expecting xD 22:32:09 So, one of the things you can do with the STS (however you modify it) is add a rule that erases certain words from spells, thus limiting that for all players. 22:32:40 I suspect that spells will be stack-based and cease executing when they encounter nonsense 22:33:39 So, you can declare that the element earth, for example (it may not actually be a cheesy four-elements thing in the final game) can't be use by using "earth::=" when prompted to enter a rule 22:33:55 (It will /obviously/ be a cheesy 12-elements thing) 22:34:20 well, good night now 22:34:28 By preventing players from using earth, you effectively limit yourself and your opponent from using roughly 1/4 of available spells. 22:35:58 Which may be good for your strategy if you don't rely on earth, but you may later be in a bind when using earth may've been useful (e.g. stuck underground, wishing you hadn't blocked yourself from using earth so that you could cast the Inverse Jesus ("Landswimming") spell) 22:37:06 zzo38: What do you think of that? Semi-thue systems in a videogame. 22:38:49 Oooh oooh, additionally, semi-thue system rules are applied in a random order, so I figure that when you get the chance to add a new rule, you can add a spell that turns "foo" into "earth" and thus reenable your ability to use earth by typing "foo". However, since the rules are applied randomly, it would only work 50% of the time. 22:42:09 Even better, you'd be able to tell it that certain rules are prioritized above others, but it isn't exact and is kind of pricy 22:42:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:50:35 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:51:19 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:53:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 22:56:06 -!- Lord_of_- has joined. 23:01:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:04:06 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:14:43 @tell oerjan So can you give a counterexample to my assertion that if a function is differentiable at a point, then it's also differentiable on a disc surrounding that point? 23:14:43 Consider it noted. 23:16:19 tswett: multiply any everywhere-continuous-but-nowhere-differentiable function f(x) by x^2 and you're done 23:16:39 (the result is differentiable only at x=0 and nowhere else) 23:16:51 tswett: sin(1/x^2)*x^2 around 0 is sort of standard 23:17:38 mauris: + bounded 23:17:38 I don't think that works. I think in the complex numbers, that's not differentiable at 0. 23:17:54 tswett: it surely is 23:18:00 It's not even continuous at 0. 23:18:07 -!- heroux has joined. 23:18:46 ah, you have a point there 23:18:59 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sin%281%2Fx^2%29*x^2+where+x+%3D+0.0001+sqrt%28i%29 23:20:19 anyway I didn't know it was supposed to be for complex numbers and mauris' idea is valid anyway 23:20:20 f(z) = |z|^2 at 0? 23:20:56 (I could've dwelled a bit longer on the term "disk" before translating it to "interval" though) 23:21:47 On the complex numbers, f(z) = |z|^2 is differentiable nowhere. 23:21:54 z=0 23:22:08 Umm, lemme think about that. 23:23:28 That actually sounds right. 23:23:49 Lemme see. 23:25:13 Limit of |z|^2/z near z = 0? Well, |z| is z/sgn(z), making that z^2/(z sgn(z)^2), which reduces to z/sgn(z)^2. 23:25:53 Yup, I think you're right. 23:28:56 Can you please tell me how to install the new SQLite on this Ubuntu? I ask them how to do but they won't tell me how. 23:31:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:32:05 . o O ( curl http://distfiles.gentoo.org/releases/amd64/autobuilds/20150924/install-amd64-minimal-20150924.iso | dd of=/dev/sda ) 23:33:04 `run curl http://distfiles.gentoo.org/releases/amd64/autobuilds/20150924/install-amd64-minimal-20150924.iso | dd of=/dev/sda 23:33:06 dd: opening `/dev/sda': Read-only file system \ Failed to connect to socket 2. \ % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \ 23:33:36 Stack Magic seems like it'll be an interesting language 23:33:44 *language/game 23:34:27 Perhaps I should base it on a subset of the actual elements and call them the classical elements xD 23:35:07 12 elements, five or so manifestations. 23:35:18 (The source of that command was this hilarious experiment, https://www.twitchinstalls.com/ ) 23:44:57 http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/121502/ending-a-declarative-statement-with-a-question-mark is this irritating? 23:45:03 ahaha 23:45:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 278 seconds). 23:54:15 izabera: I don't know what you mean? 23:54:29 exactly that 23:54:33 do people find it irritating? 23:54:45 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 23:55:25 I certainly wouldn't use a question mark there. (Except ironically, obviously?) 23:55:26 seriously i'm not a native speaker and i see it quite often but my point of view may be skewed 23:56:42 I think if it's not a question then it shouldn't have a question mark. However, given that text is a rather limiting medium, in interactive use (on IRC and the like), I can understand using it to convey some level of uncertainty. I suspect I've done that as well. 23:57:05 ok 23:57:09 thanks 23:57:56 I think I tend to do that. 23:58:04 "I guess it's, like, some sort of... coin or something?" 23:58:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:58:38 `` echo wisdom/*yzz* 23:58:39 wisdom/qzyzzalroum wisdom/xyzzy 23:58:45 `? qzyzzalroum 23:58:46 You should start the crossword over. 23:59:47 `? xyzzy 23:59:48 Nothing happens. 23:59:54 Oh, obviously.