00:00:04 <\oren\> however this is only true for hashes the same or greater length than the uniquestring itself 00:01:33 <\oren\> and of course, there needs to be constant monitoring for collisions 00:04:19 <\oren\> hmm anyway uniquestrings are fairly common, for example a here document uses a uniquestring to locate the end 00:05:28 -!- jaboja has joined. 00:06:09 <\oren\> hi 00:06:35 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:06:56 -!- TodPunk has joined. 00:07:05 [wiki] [[Surreal Brainfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44861 * Hppavilion1 * (+248) Created Page. Now to go figure out how surreal numbers work. 00:07:43 [wiki] [[Template:WIP]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44862 * Hppavilion1 * (+69) Created Template 00:08:55 [wiki] [[Category:Works-in-Progress]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44863 * Hppavilion1 * (+35) Created Category 00:17:36 <\oren\> https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?26723 00:17:42 <\oren\> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU 00:18:00 <\oren\> so that's what was happening! 00:19:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:20:07 -!- oren has joined. 00:20:37 What's the 4-valued version of a bit? 00:20:46 <\oren\> quit 00:21:03 <\oren\> quid 00:21:19 -!- \oren\ has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:21:54 -!- oren has changed nick to \oren\. 00:22:36 <\oren\> so let's see if tmux can handle the astral plane: ๐€๐๐‚๐ƒ๐„๐…๐†๐‡๐ˆ๐‰๐Š๐‹๐Œ๐๐Ž๐ 00:22:43 <\oren\> so let's see if tmux can handle the astral plane: ๐€๐๐‚๐ƒ๐„๐…๐†๐‡๐ˆ๐‰๐Š๐‹๐Œ๐๐Ž๐ 00:22:48 "bibit" doesn't sound too bad either. 00:22:53 <\oren\> yay it works 00:25:03 (Wikipedia) "By analogy with byte and nybble, a quaternary digit is sometimes called a crumb." I find that a little hard to believe, and there's no citation either. 00:29:29 -!- oren has joined. 00:29:35 -!- \oren\ has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:30:11 another test ๐‘๐‘‘๐‘’๐‘“๐‘”๐‘•๐‘–๐‘—๐‘˜๐‘™๐‘š๐‘›๐‘œ๐‘๐‘ž๐‘Ÿ 00:30:15 iei! 00:31:19 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:31:42 Iรค! Iรค! Cthulhu fhtagn! 00:34:50 -!- oren has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:35:30 -!- oren has joined. 00:35:37 -!- oren has quit (Client Quit). 00:36:13 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:37:54 -!- oren has joined. 00:39:16 phew. 00:42:45 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:42:58 I found a way to extend BF to the Reals. 00:43:00 Or, well, the Rationals. 00:43:24 And, as a bonus, it doesn't add any new instructions; just a magic cell at index -1. 00:45:29 Basically, it's just like normal BF (or at least some (theoretical) implementations of it): Unbounded cell values in both directions, right-infinite tape, pointer head starts at 0. 00:45:31 EXCEPT 00:45:43 At -1, there's a magic cell that holds the "divisor" 00:45:56 It starts at value 1 and can never be decremented below that value 00:46:45 When you call + or - on any cell, instead of adding or subtracting 1 from it, it adds or subtracts 1/tape[-1]. This allows it to represent ANY rational number in a single cell! 00:48:16 [wiki] [[Surreal Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44864&oldid=44861 * Hppavilion1 * (+36) Categorized 00:48:41 [wiki] [[Surreal Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44865&oldid=44864 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Recategorized 00:49:20 [wiki] [[Brainfuckโ‚]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44866&oldid=44796 * Hppavilion1 * (+36) Categorized 00:58:58 [wiki] [[Brainfuckโ‚]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44867&oldid=44866 * Hppavilion1 * (+554) concurrency, apply to all 01:07:49 -!- BustyLoliChan has joined. 01:08:02 Oh, and in Rationalfuck (which I will be incorporating into Brainfuckโ‚ I think), the + and - commands stay the same on cell -1. So you don't get weird exponential growth errors. 01:11:56 [wiki] [[Brainfuckโ‚]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44868&oldid=44867 * Hppavilion1 * (+878) Kill, partial ID explanation, implementation specs 01:11:57 -!- JesseH has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:17:34 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:21:12 I'd like to create a programming language using single-character commands by systematically going through unicode and assigning characters meanings 01:21:23 That ISN'T a BF derivatives 01:21:31 s/s// 01:21:47 it's gonna take a while 01:22:50 izabera: Well it wouldn't cover all of unicode 01:22:58 aww bummer 01:23:10 I mean, it's not like I'm going to make every Arabic charactere mean something 01:23:17 that's racist 01:23:42 No it isn't. I don't speak arabic, and neither do most programmers. 01:24:07 that's racist and you have no evidence to support it 01:25:04 No, it really isn't. I was using Arabic as an example. I'm not going to make arabic characters mean something because the meanings would be arbitrary, because I don't know what the characters refer to 01:25:25 I could have easily said Japanese or Mandarin or even English. 01:25:42 In fact, no letter character will mean something because they're reserved for comments 01:26:21 one could argue that any meaning you're going to assign to any character will be arbitrary 01:26:30 Fair enough. 01:26:46 Continuing from earlier, "Or more accurately, every character will either be assigned a value, be reserved for comments, or be a "Temporary NOP" 01:26:49 " 01:29:09 izabera: However, I don't see how saying that I'm not going to assign every Arabic character a meaning is racist. I'm not, because there are a lot of them and I don't know what they mean and they have no real meaning as a single character, from what I understand about Arabic (it's like English in that words are multi-character) 01:29:48 I have nothing against anyone from the Middle East (well, that's not accurate, I have something against the terrorists in the middle east, but everyone else I'm fine with) 01:29:54 come on i was jk 01:30:07 OK. I was hoping so, but I wasn't certain xD 01:31:40 https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/43/ why is 4 1 4 2 3 jolly? 01:33:32 what will you have multiocular o mean? 01:33:43 doesthiswork: ? 01:33:50 it's a character, i guess 01:34:05 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O 01:35:08 doesthiswork: Well most likely, it will be a Comment Character in case anyone speaks Cyrillic when programming and wants to write a comment 01:35:27 (I could alternatively make #..\n commenting work, if that would be a better idea) 01:36:49 [wiki] [[Brainfuckโ‚]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44869&oldid=44868 * Hppavilion1 * (+99) NOP 01:37:00 So! 01:37:12 What should the base Data Structure of this "UniLang" be? 01:37:30 after reading that wikipedia page my opinion is that the author was bored and decided to draw a made up character 01:37:38 true 01:38:03 the purpose was entirely for eye puns in medeval russia 01:38:34 is there a "i with heart" unicode character? 01:38:40 no 01:39:00 that's far more common than the multiocular o 01:39:04 there's a heart exclamation mark though 01:39:08 COMBINING HEART ABOVE 01:39:33 shachaf: They should add that 01:39:34 hpp: the datastructure should be http 01:39:44 doesthiswork: http? Why? 01:39:54 โฃ 01:40:28 (Also, the officially accepted abbreviation of my name is "hp", as it comes from HP Pavilion computers) 01:40:37 (xD) 01:40:53 HPยฎ 01:40:58 โ™ฅโฃโคโฅโ™ก 01:40:58 shachaf: Yes. 01:41:11 i would never have guessed that it comes from hp pavilion computers 01:41:14 I mean combined data structure; a tape of stacks perhaps? 01:41:15 I had an HP Pavilion laptop once. 01:41:17 mind=blown 01:41:18 It was scow. 01:41:23 because it is standard, works well when distributed and hasn't been done before 01:41:30 The scow of laptops. 01:41:35 True, true 01:41:44 But HTTP isn't exactly a Data Structure 01:41:49 -!- oren has changed nick to lenovothinkpad. 01:41:54 It's a protocol, last time I checked 01:42:05 Lenovo Thinkpads are scow. 01:42:07 lenovothinkpad: I used to have an HP, but now I have a Lenovo xD 01:42:14 IBM Thinkpads were much better. 01:42:26 I always assumed HP stood for Higgledy Piggledy. 01:42:29 shachaf: Computers are scow. We should all be back in prehistory farming scows. 01:42:32 post-its bind inadequately to skin 01:42:36 `? hppavilion1 01:42:37 higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed 01:42:40 :) 01:42:48 Phantom_Hoover: try surgical tape 01:43:00 unavailable 01:43:09 yes, but when designing a language the implementation of the base data structure doesn't matter, what matters is what protocol you use to store and retrieve data. 01:43:09 go to the drug store 01:43:11 Phantom_Hoover: Have a needle and thread handy? 01:43:22 no 01:43:27 Oh. 01:43:39 http://unicodeheart.com/ 01:43:54 for instance lisp has car cdr and cons 01:43:58 doesthiswork: The base data structure matters to the programmer, at least when it's a BF family language (not to be confused with a BF derivative) 01:44:11 i refuse to believe that SMILING CAT FACE WITH HEART-SHAPED EYES exists but there's no i with heart 01:44:33 (A BF family language uses short ascii commands and operates on a data structure instead of storing variables) 01:44:42 (well, not necessarily ascii) 01:44:57 (BF family is a much more diverse family than C family 01:45:16 izabera: I'll add an i with a heart to my font in the private use area 01:45:56 killer feature 01:46:00 -!- lenovothinkpad has changed nick to \oren\. 01:47:32 I think the reason i with heart isn't included is that it's just an i. 01:47:35 With a heart. 01:47:47 Though combinining hear diacritic may be a good idea 01:47:53 h: when you implement brainfuck the data data structure can be implemented however you want as long as it follows the protocol defined in the bf spec. 01:49:20 doesthiswork: True, but I'm talking about the way the programmer sees the DS 01:49:31 <\oren\> yeah so 0xf800 will be an I with a heart. i'll but j with a heart as F801 01:49:33 It'd be a stretch to see BF as using anything but a tape 01:49:53 \oren\: Make ALL the ascii characters with hearts. 01:49:55 xD 01:50:05 (How big is private use again?) 01:50:11 (Or for the first time?) 01:50:51 <\oren\> the PUA is from E000 to F8ff 01:51:13 Ah 01:51:26 Why didn't they make it go from something to FFFF? 01:52:02 <\oren\> the area near FFFF is used for halfwidth katakana and wide Ascii characters 01:52:39 doesthiswork: So what I'm really asking is what should the data structure that the programmer sees be? 01:53:11 -!- JesseH has joined. 01:53:19 A tape of stacks? A deque? A Tree of SQL table rows? 01:53:33 : esoteric languages are meant to stretch, if you want something like a tape you can use < and > to move to the previous and next location similar to the forward and back buttons on a browser 01:54:05 doesthiswork: But it doesn't /need/ to be a tape. What I'm getting at is what /should/ it be? 01:54:05 -!- ^v has joined. 01:54:20 I'm currently partial to a Tree of something (possibly maps) 01:55:16 http operates on a map, and history becomes a tree of locations in the map 01:55:18 Or maybe even a graph 01:55:26 doesthiswork: Interesting... 01:55:52 What if browsing the web was like a spaghetti stack instead of a tree? Or something like that? 01:56:07 Where you start with many webpages and converge on a single root page 01:56:40 I think I'll do a tree of dynamically-typed nodes 01:56:52 Or maybe a tree of maps. I don't know. 01:57:16 Or should it be a digraph? 01:59:16 if you have an operation to take the value of the current location and make the next pointer point at it, then you can dynamically change the graph 01:59:54 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:00:37 s/next/"next" 02:01:25 Yep. I'll do a graph. 02:01:35 A /payload/ graph 02:01:46 (Which is what I call a graph where the vertices have a value 02:01:47 ) 02:02:34 -!- Patashu has joined. 02:03:17 In fact, I'll make it a hypergraph 02:11:08 -!- aloril has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:11:47 Nah, just a graph. Hypergraph is hard. 02:14:21 Maybe? 02:18:34 hypergraphs don't seem that hard 02:25:08 I think I'd call that a "vertex-labeled graph", or a "labeled graph" for short (but that's ambiguous), or a "graph with its vertices labeled" for long. 02:27:43 Hypergraphs seem weird, but I guess they're useful for something 02:28:02 I mean, it seems weird to me to think of it as a kind of graph, rather than just a subset of the powerset of a set 02:31:25 A category theorist defines a graph as "a set V, a set E, and two functions from E to V". 02:31:46 Replacing "two" with a different number isn't much of a leap. 02:36:08 Oh, so I've figured out how to augment my amazing programming language to allow you to define stuff like addition. 02:36:08 Observe: 02:36:08 add(zero, y) = y; add(succ(x), y) = succ(add(x, y)); 02:40:37 But that's the... anti-abbreviated syntax, so to speak. It hides what's really going on by making stuff more verbose. 02:41:46 -!- gde33 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:43:37 Here's a better syntax: 02:43:57 add(x, y) = recurse x for {zero -> y; succ -> succ(base)} 02:44:52 'Course, we can define multiplication and exponentiation similarly. 02:45:13 mult(x, y) = recurse x for {zero -> zero; succ -> add(base, y)} 02:45:41 Is it an ALU even if I don't have a way to select which one I want? 02:46:06 Like, if I set A, B, then go, it will give me A&B and A|B (on different lines), but I can't say only do one? 02:46:43 exp(x, y) = recurse y for {zero -> succ(zero); succ -> mult(base, x)} 02:47:30 Sgeo__: I think I've only seen the term "ALU" used in reference to hardware. 02:47:45 Define hardware 02:48:17 Transistors in an IC. 02:48:17 Are Activeworlds objects hardware? They're things I'm trying to make primitive logic gates out of, don't have a full fledged programming language 02:48:38 Sgeo__, shut up about activeworlds! 02:48:38 But they do seem to support NAND and memory, which I'm trying to make more efficient 02:48:51 uh, whoops 02:48:53 flashback 02:49:10 A simulation of hardware also counts, I suppose. 02:50:42 Doesn't quite behave exactly like transistors, though 02:54:23 I think I'll make BFโ‚ work on a tape-o-stacks, just for fun 02:59:37 -!- jaboja has joined. 03:10:36 [wiki] [[Brainfuckโ‚]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44870&oldid=44869 * Hppavilion1 * (+1458) A couple new commands, compounding keywords. Working towards covering all of Basic Latin. 03:12:41 [wiki] [[Brainfuckโ‚]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44871&oldid=44870 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed a command collision 03:15:02 Hm... 03:15:09 I still can't decide what to do for UniLang... 03:19:32 [wiki] [[Cain]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44872 * Hppavilion1 * (+267) Named language. Now to invent it. 03:21:31 -!- Wright_ has joined. 03:21:31 -!- Wright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:21:44 Here's an idea 03:22:50 A blog in which someone has discovered a mysterious program on their computer. They launch it to discover that it's an omnific programming language. They can't send it to anybody, but they can do some /pretty/ powerful things with it. The entire blog serves to entertain, teach some programming concepts, and generally be awesome. 03:24:04 My current idea has some dark but lighthearted occult themes to it 03:28:40 http://i.imgur.com/LbXV9pT.jpg 03:28:49 Why is there a 19th floor? There shouldn't be a 19th floor 03:29:49 Sgeo__: Why is there a 19th floor where? 03:30:06 In this show loosely based off the Wayside School books 03:31:13 In the books, how is there no 19th floor? Like, what is the way in which it is absent? 03:32:41 The builder forgot to build it. (I think exactly what this looks like is a bit unspecified) 03:32:53 I think it's numbering, 18th, then 20th 03:33:07 Oh! The wayside school! 03:33:25 Doesn't stop people from wandering into a non-existent classroom with a non-existent teacher, then asked to write down the numbers 1 to 1000000 in alphabetical order 03:33:32 Sgeo__: I'm pretty sure it was the 13th floor that was missing... 03:34:46 http://wayside.wikia.com/wiki/19th_story 03:34:53 Oh, huh 03:34:57 In many builtings they do not have a floor numbered 13 even though they have more floors than that 03:35:00 Could've sworn it was 13 03:35:14 Is there a 31st floor? 03:35:28 Or does it stop at 30? 03:35:48 The numbering stops at 30 (so it's the 29th floor if numbering included 19) 03:36:20 * tswett nods. 03:37:05 In one of the books, the chapter numbers go 19, 19, 19, "20, 21, 22" 03:37:40 Also, there are two elevators, one which only goes up, one which only goes down. Each is only used once. 03:38:08 That reminds me of a certain paradox. 03:38:31 There were some people who worked in a tall office building, one of them near the top and one of them near the bottom. 03:39:17 I think I read the book relating to Wayside School where there was no problem 19 (which was supposed to be the hardest problem in the book, but the teacher omitted it because one of the students prove that there can be no surprise quiz this week). 03:40:00 The one near the top noticed that whenever they went to the elevators to go home for the day, the next elevator to arrive was usually going up. 03:40:10 The one near the bottom, on the other hand, noticed that it was usually going down. 03:40:44 So if most of the elevators near the top of the building are going up, and most near the bottom of the building are going down, it must be that elevators are being created in the middle of the building and then destroyed at the top and bottom. 03:40:48 zzo38, one of the math books. I remember starting to read one, but it started talking about girls' underwear so I got embarrassed and stopped. This was in elementary school I think 03:41:35 <\oren\> should have waited till grade 7 and started again from that point 03:41:41 Also, I remember the surprise quiz. I think that book was the one that exposed me to the unexpected hanging paradox. 03:41:47 By the way, I have some important arithmetic. 03:41:54 > [432/9, 324/9, 243/9] 03:41:55 [48.0,36.0,27.0] 03:42:04 Oh wow. 03:42:31 > [432/27, 324/27, 243/27] 03:42:33 [16.0,12.0,9.0] 03:42:35 I guess this one then http://wayside.wikia.com/wiki/More_Sideways_Arithmetic_from_Wayside_School 03:42:42 http://wayside.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_book_chapters 03:42:45 eww wikia 03:42:54 > [432/324, 324/243] 03:42:55 [1.3333333333333333,1.3333333333333333] 03:53:38 tswett: of course now that we know surprise is measured in shannon information, we could come up with a stochastic procedure that maximized expected surprise even when the procedure is known 03:53:51 Hmm. 03:54:08 That would just be produced by using the uniform distribution over days, right? 03:54:29 Your total amount of surprise is just the negative log of the prior probability of the day which ended up chosen. 04:00:00 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:00:25 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 04:00:29 if we maximise anticipation instead then we should sum the expected surprise for each day before the quiz 04:02:01 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4CCCGYyn30 04:02:19 <\oren\> \//unrelated 04:02:32 no, that's silly 04:02:45 (not to you oren) 04:03:05 https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/77/ -> http://arin.ga/PCXSYB/raw 04:03:20 * izabera just finished it 04:08:13 doesthiswork: and exclude surprise the day *of* the quiz? 04:08:47 I feel like then it's probably maximized by making there be a 50% chance of having the quiz, each day that it hasn't been had yet. 04:08:55 At least, if the school week has infinitely many days. 04:11:29 Does the Unexpected Hanging Paradox have any relation to Computer Science? 04:11:43 Is there some problem that it contributes to/helps solve? 04:12:00 And wouldn't it be funny if it was the solution to P vs NP? 04:12:14 the reason I say it is silly because anticipation jumps through the roof if you say that the quiz will be sometime /next/ week 04:14:39 a school week with an indefinate end is nice solution to the paradox 04:15:11 The unexpected hanging paradox is sort of an interesting investigation of "it is provable that" as a logical operator. 04:21:33 is there a simple explanation of when "it is provable" can be used as a logical operator without leading to paradoxes? 04:24:59 You would have to make up the rules of "it is provable that" operator, and then it can be usable. 04:26:24 IIRC, the unexpected hanging paradox is not a paradox in the mathematical sense. 04:28:00 I don't think there is a mathematical sense of paradox. 04:28:07 It's not a mathematical word.