00:00:26 Surreal numbers are weird. I read a bit about them while reading up on Go, but I can't say I got them entirely 00:01:42 hppavilion[1], if you've not read stuff like cantor's diagonal argument you don't have much of a foundation to build on yet 00:02:42 Oh 00:04:17 mathematical infinity comes in many forms, all of them unintuitive in some way 00:05:33 what's unintuitive about the conaturals 00:09:58 Maybe they're cointuitive 00:10:14 `coins 00:10:17 ​bitwimpcoin tftberavecoin cycling-boobazocoin galcoin binacoin umannelcoin bylcoin quitcoin recurecoin befretruccoin discoin catchalchecoin smithutcoin 3756coin procoin excitercoin adedcoin shamcoin oozlecoin smacoin 00:10:27 tuitivecoin 00:10:52 if only i could get a round, tuitive coin 00:11:25 shamcoin 00:11:51 newshamcoin 00:12:06 i miss news-ham 00:12:43 newsham: i had no idea you were into that kind of cryptography 00:14:56 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:20:50 I like "oozlecoin" the best out of those, I think 00:21:05 although "quitcoin" has interesting implications 00:25:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:28:54 Only cards that let you to take stuff from the sideboard can be used to remove stuff from the main game (it will end up in the library of the main game instead, I think). As far as I know you can even take stuff from the ante zone of the main game but I am not sure (although your opponent can concede the subgame if wanted; I have been told that for the purposes of conceding, no effects are considered as atomic) 00:29:50 maybe "quitcoin" is for people trying to do something about their cryptocoin addiction 00:32:39 -!- draghi has joined. 00:38:41 So I think I won't use the surreals in this language, I'll save that for the Sequel language xD 00:44:35 -!- astralfish has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:52:21 Perhaps I should downgrade from the Surreals to the Ordinals? 00:55:38 What should I call my uberlang? 00:55:50 The brainfuck derivative? 00:58:03 Unifuck? 01:01:00 lol XD 01:02:13 BF Derivative #98,000 - Ordinal Edition? 01:02:19 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:24:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:32:10 i need to kind of fuzzy match a string against a text, but i'm not interested in words that are very common and can be part of both 01:32:21 so far i'm removing all the words that match the|.|..|with|and 01:32:41 any suggestion? 01:33:55 The information retrieval approach is to have a huge corpus, and then weight words by the inverse document frequency (df = #documents that the word appears in, in the corpus) 01:34:09 Well, that is one approach at least 01:34:30 thanks 01:34:37 that way "more rare" words get weighted higher, and typically those are domain-specific 01:34:38 or that's the idea 01:34:57 how large is a huge corpus? 01:34:59 You might want to look at tf-idf weighting 01:35:17 I guess it depends on one's needs 01:35:36 What kind of strings are you matching? 01:35:54 I mean, what is the context of the fuzzy match 01:36:01 you know those bots that print the title of the most recent url that was posted in a channel? 01:36:29 that's the single most annoying feature in irc bots 01:36:41 i'm trying to make one that's slightly less annoying 01:37:06 www.pastebin.com/random/paste -> Pastebin.com, your friendly neighborhood pastebin site 01:37:11 ^ completely pointless 01:37:41 Heh 01:37:43 www.random-wiki-website.org/wiki/how-to-set-up-the-interwebz -> Random Wiki Website: How to set up the interwebz 01:37:49 ^ even moar pointless 01:38:04 so it will ignore a list of known pastebin sites 01:38:22 I used to think they were pointless, but then I started idling in a channel with a titlebot like that and now I've kinda grown to like it 01:38:35 no i hate them 01:38:37 -.- 01:38:39 at least as long as they don't highlight the user posting the link 01:38:42 that is the worst 01:38:47 http://arin.ga/8rBLLA/raw thiiiis 01:39:09 from #musl a few hours ago when i got fed up with this 01:39:20 Fair 01:39:51 so i have to guess if the title is similar enough to the url 01:40:09 one way to avoid that amount of stupidity would be to simply keep a cache of the past few titles posted to a channel, and ignore if the string matches exactly 01:40:23 yeah that's one the to do list 01:41:19 Hmm 01:41:48 maybe do something like: lowercase both strings, strip whitespace, find the longest common subsequence between the two 01:42:05 I guess stripping whitespace is unnecessary 01:42:37 right now i'm splitting the words, removing the trivial ones that match that regex, comparing and check if X% of words match 01:42:38 but then the length of the longest common subsequence compared to the length of the string might say something about how much the title repeats the URL 01:42:51 it's a different approach to comparing words, though 01:44:22 what's the point in a random paste button? 01:44:54 I guess it'd be comparable to a random tweet button (does Twitter have one of those?) 01:47:16 what is a random paste button? 01:47:40 presumably you press it, and it shows you a random thing that has ever been pasted to a pastebin 01:48:11 i guess you can get lucky 01:48:11 * FireFly imagines a "random tweet" button that tweets one of those markov-chain-generated tweets that *ebooks accounts post 01:48:52 does fungot have a twitter account? 01:48:52 ais523: i'm going to check his legs, spinning him around and shoving him in the nuts and set fire to practically everybody,' said 01:48:55 (I vaguely remember it does) 01:49:15 also fungot seems to be in a very destructive mood today 01:49:15 ais523: banjo's big bald head turned towards her. ' not after them big red statues turned up behind me like that!' she said. 01:49:32 ^style 01:49:32 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 01:49:48 ^style ff7 01:49:49 Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII) 01:49:53 fungot 01:49:54 izabera: maybe if i don't! it's inoperable!! do something about it. 01:50:02 ais523: It had one, but it hasn't been tweeting in a while. 01:50:09 fungot: I think that's what she's doing 01:50:09 FireFly: come on... the true power of mako reactor. and...... like turks! believe it. 01:50:15 where did you download the full script of ff7? 01:50:35 probably gamefaqs, there are people there who spend most of their time transcribing games 01:50:43 ^ 01:50:47 sounds fun... 01:50:48 and ff7 is popular enough that it's likely to have been transcribed by now 01:50:58 wait, not just ripping the text from the ROM? 01:50:59 Yes. 01:51:05 That seems like it'd be much easier 01:51:21 I think they often start with a text dump. 01:51:35 that's cheating 01:52:00 http://www.yinza.com/Fandom/Script.html 01:52:17 ct is the other game script fungot has. 01:52:18 fizzie: cloud!? da-chao statue and leviathan are ashamed!! 01:52:39 and ct is ...? 01:52:43 Ooh, the swiping keyboard on my phone has learned "fungot". 01:52:43 fizzie: guess i should fill the store with flowers. it'll be all right or not. that is where the knowledge of the jenova project. beautiful... lucrecia. 01:52:46 Chrono Trigger 01:53:01 ^style wp 01:53:02 Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages) 01:53:06 ^style ss 01:53:06 Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings) 01:53:11 ^style oots 01:53:11 Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick) 01:53:17 fungot: what is this 01:53:18 izabera: come to think that a superhero! ya can't just ignore that and skip directly. your luck, lumpy? i took. and elan took. and elan took and i many years, and i see now that it's any good? 01:53:30 A webcomic. 01:53:37 ^style jargon 01:53:38 Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive) 01:53:40 fungot 01:53:40 izabera: in my mail now. i fully expect that every action it takes 103416 bytes to your terminal. ( 3) restart the cron daemon by doing an up-front screening of potential users, it's a distributed operating system designed to run a program to do 01:53:51 meh 01:53:59 ^style irc 01:53:59 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 01:54:15 fungot: any wisdom from the olden times? 01:54:15 FireFly: there are some in cl), isn't it? 01:54:17 i expected that thing on esr's website 01:54:40 * FireFly prods fungot again 01:54:40 FireFly: razor-x also didn't read the page i pointed you to the conclusion that you are adamant against learning anything whatsoever, earn rightfully a bad grade in the class, the object model seems to fit exactly 02:06:40 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:06:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:07:12 -!- ais523 has joined. 02:16:36 my logs are boring 02:17:11 i extracted all the urls, removed the irrelevant ones, splitted the words, counted them 02:17:33 and the result looks boring 02:17:58 my corpus: cat .weechat/logs/* | grep -Eo 'https?://[^[:blank:]]*|www\.[^[:blank:]]*' | grep -Ev 'pastebin|codepad|wiki|youtu|arin\.ga|ideone|gist\.|sprunge|ix\.io|paste|imgur|\.(jpg|png|pdf)$' > list 02:18:07 -!- draghi has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:18:26 the analysis thingy: sed -r '/.*\/./s|.*/||; s|^(https?://)?(www\.)?||; s/\.(html|php)$//' list | tr -sc A-Za-z '\n' | grep -wEv 'the|.|..|with|an[dy]' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n 02:20:38 495 linux 516 vim 794 awk 800 bash :\ 02:21:35 -!- PilotMan has joined. 02:21:49 -!- PilotMan has left. 02:22:16 well i do have 5 sexy 9 sex 02:30:53 shachaf: i'm into cryptography? 02:32:09 i don't know, are you? 02:33:47 not exessively so.. i know a little.. enough to be dangerous, but luckily enough to not try to do it on my own 02:34:36 but are you into newshamcoin 02:35:08 i dont hold any ecurrencies 02:35:30 i once bought $100 in btc and sold some for $800 or so, and gave the rest to my brother 02:36:32 i think it was worth $20k or so at one point? 02:46:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:48:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 03:01:13 It seem like complicated and does not deal with non-HTTP URLs. (It is also possible for a URI to not be used to point to anything, although I suppose that is rare.) 03:04:09 How does one define a ring syntactically <-- it's a variety of algebras, which is defined by a set of operators and equations, which is pretty syntactic as math goes 03:04:48 a + b = b + a, a + (-a) = 0, a + 0 = a, a + (b + c) = (a + b) + c well that's the group part 03:05:34 *abelian group 03:06:27 a * (b * c) = (a * b) * c, a * 1 = a, 1 * a = a, a * (b + c) = (a * b) + (a * c), (a + b) * c = (a * c) + (b * c) 03:06:47 1 part sometimes considered optional 03:07:56 how does one define a banana phone syntactically 03:08:34 I miss news-ham 03:08:42 What is news-ham? 03:09:01 it was a bot, that IIRC output news headlines to the channel every now and then 03:09:10 I think it was just created as a pun on "newsham" 03:09:15 shachaf: well you start with 7 rings and a swatter... -----### 03:09:26 did newsham have to do with it? 03:09:45 @news 03:09:46 Sequence not found. 03:09:58 ...i think that corrected to @oeis 03:10:11 well it's only two letters out 03:10:21 i vaguely think elliott made news-ham 03:10:24 ah 03:10:50 I think it might have done something else too, but I can't remember what 03:11:04 i also miss elliott 03:11:45 well, the channel was frequently offtopic back then, even more so than now I think 03:11:58 hppavilion[1] has dragged it ontopic a good proportion of the time, which I find to be a really good thing 03:12:21 Yuy 03:14:22 See if you make Magic: the Gathering puzzles involving split second 03:15:36 zzo38: make it involve morph to counter the split second! 03:16:03 ais523: Of course that is one thing, but there is many other thing to do. 03:17:34 Other thing though in some cases you might be able to do triggered abilities that now cannot be triggered due to split second, and then possibly you have to counter the spell with the split second anyways 03:20:19 Another idea would be puzzle that the solution change very different based on a few variations such as whose turn it is or what version of the rules is being played, or the timestamps of objects 03:24:51 So lets say someone has written a BF interpreter and compiler, and has written an interpreter for their own language which is super simple (can just split it by :'s and execute easily), what would be a good language to write an interpreter or compiler for that would teach something new, but not me too difficult of a project? 03:25:19 Listening to a side-by-side comparison of Unison vs... whatver the heck I installed on here. Unison is winning 03:25:22 Why did I ever abandon it 03:25:46 -!- Wright has joined. 03:26:11 JesseH: you're looking for a language to implement that isn't too hard, but is more difficult in terms of parsing and/or semantics? 03:26:31 what language are you writing in? (this affects my choice of answer) 03:27:54 ais523, Excuse me if the question sounds dumb, but I'm looking for something that wouldn't take a month, hopefully just a day or two, and still teach me something new about parsing and what not. I'd probably want to write it in Lua, JavaScript, or PHP, as those are the languages I'm currently working with. 03:28:01 i'll suggest underload since ais523 might feel too biased to do it hth 03:28:14 oerjan: I was going to suggest Underload, but based on what JesseH's saying I think it'd be too easy 03:28:20 ah 03:28:31 because the languages he's mentioned have the primitives Underload needs already 03:29:00 FORTE, then? 03:29:13 Forte would work well, yes 03:29:50 JesseH: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte 03:30:00 I'll check that one out. :-) 03:30:02 Thanks guys. 03:33:59 Mana abilities can also be use while spell with split-second is on the stack, as well as morph, and some mana abilities have other effects too (such as sacrifice or damage or discarding), and you could have triggers based on any of these things, so you could potentially do many things with this, possibly though in an otherwise more complicated puzzle involving other things too, split-second is just one part of them 03:42:39 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:43:18 So... has anyone started on an Esoteric Widget Toolkit yet? 03:44:03 ais523: What's the right channel for all the non-esoteric things you talk about in here? 03:44:08 I don't think so (unless you count Gammaplex, or was it Deltaplex? which is a bit different) 03:44:18 shachaf: sadly, probably here 03:44:24 #esoteric-offtopic was used at some point 03:44:48 my complaint's more about absence of ontopic conversation, rather than presence of offtopic conversation 03:44:49 ⚢ 03:45:11 I tend to find (some of) the offtopic conversation more interesting. 03:45:44 ais523: Perhaps Omegaplex? 03:46:00 But I don't want to make the channel worse for you, so I wonder what I should be doing. 03:46:19 hppavilion[1]: aha, could be 03:46:28 Or zetaplex 03:46:36 some greek letter, anyway 03:46:50 shachaf: the offtopic conversation (that we have nowadays, at least) rarely offends me 03:47:05 just when this channel isn't discussing esolangs, I don't really have much of a reason to be here 03:47:18 because similar offtopic conversations (on similar topics) can be held in half the channels I'm in 03:47:48 and fwiw, there's quite a user overlap between the channels I'm in too 03:47:57 maybe we should just make a social channel for that overlap 03:48:25 I don't think I'm in any of those channels. 03:48:45 nah just make a schedule for switching the discussion from channel to channel stwh 03:48:46 Maybe I used to be in some NetHack channels. 03:48:53 shachaf: this is the only channel you share with me, right 03:49:04 oerjan: what does the 's' stand for? 03:49:12 surely you can guess 03:49:23 I can guess the other three! 03:49:31 I think I need to creep on ais523 more. :P 03:49:34 surely now you can guess 03:49:42 shachaf: thanks 03:49:56 also I seem to have got into an argument on Reddit about whether anything in the real world can be TC, and if not, whether we should just use "TC" to mean bounded-storage machines 03:50:18 pikhq: huh, you're in #tasvideos? 03:50:20 I want to make a language called GUFunge ("Goo-funj"). It would be like Befunge with GUI support. 03:50:24 Anyone feel like helping? 03:50:26 I checked to see which channels we shared but didn't expect that one, for some reason 03:50:31 As of like two weeks ago; I mostly lurk. 03:50:39 hppavilion[1]: why don't you add a GUI fingerprint to Befunge 98? 03:50:42 pft, at least get into that argument in the real world, rather than on reddit 03:50:46 ais523: I don't do TASing but I've lurked tasvideos for freaking ages. 03:50:47 that way you'll be compatible with all the existing programs 03:51:03 ais523: Oh right. We can do that. xD 03:51:10 pikhq: fair enough; computer games are an esolang, after all 03:51:26 So I had an idea for part of an EsoGUI toolkit. Specifically, for the geometry manager 03:51:53 What is an esolang? 03:52:30 shachaf: It's an archaic term for an Esolang 03:52:50 I think a definition broad enough to include computer games is broad enough to include... 03:52:54 I believe offtopic should be allowed on this channel too, but ontopic should have priority in case there is interference that someone complain about 03:53:00 `addquote What is an esolang? shachaf: It's an archaic term for an Esolang 03:53:03 1256) What is an esolang? shachaf: It's an archaic term for an Esolang 03:53:08 shachaf: FWIW many computer games are TC in esoteric ways. 03:53:10 Yuy 03:53:13 that is craizly philosophical 03:53:14 I got quoted 03:53:25 pikhq: Sure, but being TC isn't a requirement for a language either. 03:53:31 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1]'s E down to size -----### 03:53:39 True. 03:53:52 I think that being TC is a sufficient condition for being a language, although not a necessary one 03:53:52 I just remembered an idea I had around when I first joined this channel... 03:54:17 and that if something is a programming language, but not intended to be a usable programming language or a target for compilation into 03:54:20 then it's an esolang 03:54:27 hppavilion[1]: Which is what? 03:54:34 that said, some languages which /are/ intended to be a target for compilation into are also esolangs 03:54:35 And thus Pokemon is a neat esolang. 03:54:37 (e.g. Underlambda tier 1) 03:54:41 zzo38: Typing -_- 03:55:02 Queue Messenger System. It'd be a fun little `quote-like system where you can "&sendmsg " to send enqueue a message and "&getmsg" to get a message out. 03:55:17 Ideally, it'd get really, REALLY long. 03:55:22 What are other conditions for being a language? 03:55:34 (I think Pokemon in particular is a great example because the ACE is fairly easily done by a knowledgeable human being.) 03:55:51 I think esolangs (by this sort of definition) which aren't intended to be esolangs I'd probably find more interesting. 03:55:57 shachaf: Implementable, barring memory limitations? 03:56:16 shachaf: well, one class of esolangs is "languages intended to point out incorrect assumptions in definitions of a language" 03:56:29 something like Minimum or Unnecessary is normally considered an esolang 03:56:41 So what do you guys think of &sendmsg? 03:56:42 When you can make general-purpose computation with stuff that was never intended to do so, then it might be of interest 03:56:43 but it doesn't really have much in common with languages, and even less with programming 03:56:48 and &getmsg? 03:57:01 hppavilion[1]: well, it's basically just a queue 03:57:07 hppavilion[1]: Some esolangs are uncomputable; we have the category of it in esolang wiki 03:57:12 ais523: Well yes. It is. A MESSAGING queue 03:57:24 zzo38: But those aren't, in the traditional sense, languages 03:57:32 * hppavilion[1] realizes what he just said and where he said it 03:57:34 hppavilion[1]: hmm, you mean as something that the channel does? 03:57:35 * hppavilion[1] facepalms 03:57:50 you could probably write a queue into HackEgo 03:57:56 ais523: Yes. Exactly. 03:58:00 but I think `quote might be more interesting 03:58:07 or perhaps we could resurrect optbot 03:58:12 C++ templates are a pretty humorous example of an esolang. 03:58:23 (when you mentioned optbot's name, it repeated a random past line from the channel) 03:58:25 I COULD, OR I could write my own bot entirely 03:58:34 Maybe a tad bit depressing that people use it, but still. 03:58:36 hppavilion[1]: no, I mean reimplement optbot's functionality 03:58:43 that way people wouldn't have to remember to put messages in 03:58:52 (thank god work bans that sort of "clever" shit) 03:58:56 ais523: I could do that too 03:58:59 and you could still get messages out 03:59:11 pikhq: it's fine if people use it with the intention of it being an esolang 03:59:22 the use in Boost I'm less certain about 03:59:27 Yeah. 03:59:30 I could do that, but it doesn't preserve the "Letter to the Future" aspect 03:59:32 if I think of it like an unsafe block from Rust, I can live with it 03:59:43 `quote you use @tell 03:59:44 496) monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] @messages quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell 03:59:47 hppavilion[1]: ^ 04:00:09 Google's policy on Boost in particular amuses me. 04:00:17 pikhq: what is it? 04:00:18 They have a short whitelist of parts of Boost you may use. 04:00:35 Those being ones they've evaluated as not sucking. 04:00:45 Interesting... 04:01:32 Not that I'm likely to do much C++ at Google, but I was a bit curious and read through the style guide a bit more thoroughly. 04:01:40 TeX probably kind of is intended for some general-purpose programming, but for doing things that are not much related to typesetting, the code can be a bit strange. Actually even if it is, such as if you are sorting an index, the code can be a bit strange since previously external programs would probably have been used instead. 04:01:46 I think I'll make my own bot, and perhaps add that functionality 04:01:47 hppavilion[1]: another thing you can do is send messages to people's alternate nicks when they aren't online 04:02:05 which is a fun way to do a "message to the future" 04:02:24 (the use of the alternate nick means that there's likely to be quite some delay before it's actually received) 04:02:28 That makes some sense... 04:02:41 But I like the "Message to the Future from the Past of Esolangs" concept 04:02:55 Could you add a program into HackEgo to do? 04:03:12 Perhaps make it a priority queue where priority of enqueued messages goes down as time progresses 04:03:19 So older messages come out first 04:03:27 I don't like programs that store things in HackEgo transiently because it messes up the commit history. 04:03:28 It's unsustainable, sure, but it'd be interesting 04:03:39 It would be nice if there was an uncommitted filesystem. 04:04:58 You know what'd be an intersting IRC thing? 04:05:06 GUI IRC messages 04:05:17 THAT would be awesome 04:07:04 hmm, I see half the things hppavilion[1] says and get annoyed because I don't like the ideas, and then realise it's my own assumptions that need re-evaluating 04:07:11 Chess over IRC would be cool. 04:07:14 esolangs are all about violating assumptions, much like art 04:07:20 :) 04:07:24 I don't think I'd have come up with http://esolangs.org/wiki/90 otherwise 04:07:38 chess over IRC is totally doable, btw, although I haven't played chess in ages 04:07:43 <\oren\> `coins 04:07:45 ​datergivcoin quccoin miscoin synoecoin ediumcoin genorfcoin brighfivecoin datiocoin carmcoin catchanilcoin bfcucoin superdcoin tobeliancoin edwardcoin woodcoin halcoin kimlcoin betacoin phistcoin habeiotcoin 04:07:47 Of course it is xD 04:07:56 Maybe #esoteric-style Chess? 04:08:04 EsoChess, if you will 04:08:24 [wiki] [[90]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44584&oldid=44523 * Ais523 * (+17) add year category 04:08:29 With much unicoding and things 04:08:40 <\oren\> chess with cryptographically precommitted moves 2 turns in advance 04:08:42 hppavilion[1]: zzo38 has invented a ton of esoteric chess variants, I think 04:08:57 A violation of the basic metarules of chess? Yes. Do I care? No. 04:09:02 zzo38: Have you? 04:09:23 Perhaps an exploration game, much like Dwarf Fortress. But chessier 04:09:46 Probably shouldn't do it over IRC though, now that I consider it 04:09:53 THAT would be a bad idea 04:10:08 * ais523 vaguely remembers a game called ChessRogue 04:10:18 but I've never played it, I only know it by reputation 04:10:41 Knightmare was an interesting idea, certainly. 04:10:54 Should I go start my EsoChess RPG? 04:10:59 Thing? 04:11:28 Probably limit it to a 16x16 board 04:11:29 if you're anything like me, you'll end up starting a lot of projects and not finishing them 04:11:30 At most 04:11:33 but it's a good way to avoid becoming bored 04:11:36 ais523: Already did that 04:11:45 It got boring, so I did it on the meta level 04:11:48 <\oren\> see you encrypt a string containing a chess move like "pawn to a3 capture" 04:12:00 <\oren\> and send it to your enemy 04:12:15 \oren\: what happens if your intended move was illegal? 04:12:24 because of things your opponent did in between? 04:12:27 <\oren\> hmm 04:12:41 I guess you could just lose the game, in which case the entire point of the game could be trying to win by invalidating your opponent's planned move 04:12:47 checks would be very powerful in that regard 04:12:50 ais523: Each client keeps a record of moves and terminates the game if the enemy cheats 04:13:04 <\oren\> yeah that could work 04:13:24 So if you use a client that attempts to cheat, then you lose the game 04:13:38 hppavilion[1]: \oren\'s idea is that you have to commit to moves in advance 04:13:41 so it's not exactly cheating 04:13:44 but making a promise you're unable to keep 04:13:54 Interesting... 04:14:00 I wouldn't call that "cheating", but it does seem like a dubious operation 04:14:58 Good clients would, of course, check ahead of time that you don't make an invalid move so you don't lose. REALLY good clients make this disablable for hardcore players 04:15:44 hppavilion[1]: no, say it starts 1. e4 (committing to e5) c5 2. e5, that's fine 04:15:58 I think I got what \oren\ was saying. 04:16:08 but after 1. e4 (commiting to e5) e5, White can't play e5 now even though they committed to it 04:16:12 I'm just listing off my own, technical specs for an unrelated game 04:16:16 ah right 04:16:24 hppavilion[1]: I did invent many chess variant, many of which I have never put into the computer yet 04:16:29 And some just ideas 04:16:35 OK 04:16:49 <\oren\> yeah. so you send an encypted move to your enemy, then on you next turn you send him the password for it, so he can decrpyt it 04:16:54 Do you have any `wisdom on the subject such that I may make my own strange chess? 04:17:45 I don't know if there are any wisdom files about it 04:17:46 What should I call my n*n chess variant? 04:17:54 the ` was a joke 04:18:11 I might make it as large as 32*32, or even 64*64 04:18:25 Because I'm suffering from severe psychosis 04:18:49 `? chess 04:18:49 Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation. 04:19:14 So what should my chess be called? 04:19:22 I invented a game that is designed to be as different from chess as possible while still being the same as chess. For one thing it is one-dimensional, it has different armies, you can use a deck of cards, etc. 04:19:34 Whoa. 04:19:59 I think the rules should be made by this channel, and be designed for esotericness (what else?). 04:20:55 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 04:20:55 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:20:58 Another chess variant I made up is based on the limitations of Famicom PPU 04:21:26 [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Unnamed Chess Variant]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44585 * Hppavilion1 * (+178) Initialized Page 04:21:41 Perhaps Floating-point chess? 04:22:13 Yes you could try to make up such a thing 04:22:45 I think I'll make a collection of Pythonic chess clients that we can play over sockets. If anyone wants to play, they'll be on GitHub. 04:23:10 ais523: Do you have any suggestions for the main variant? 04:23:27 hppavilion[1]: really you should just ask zzo38, who is way better at esochess than I am 04:23:45 *Sigh* 04:24:15 zzo38: What are the main features I should add? Weird board? Weird pieces? Strange extra parts of the ruleset? 04:24:29 I think I'll start with a 3D chess 04:25:45 All of them. 04:25:57 i want to invent a card game 04:26:04 that uses only regular cards 04:26:16 but is cooperative. 04:26:21 semicooperative 04:26:32 how do you define "semicooperative"? 04:26:54 there are of course 1-player cooperative card games already (the "patience" family), which might lead to a starting point 04:27:01 Dammit. Unicode doesn't have any nonstandard chess symbols. Guess ⚧ will be a piece xD 04:27:28 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_(card_game) this is a good starting point 04:27:37 semi-cooperative means competitive/cooperative 04:27:39 most nonstandard chess pieces I've seen use regular chess symbols 04:27:41 Try the chess font I made for "TeX Chess" 04:27:51 That one has many nonstandard chess symbols included 04:27:53 the main exception is "unicorn", which is normally drawn using the symbol for a knight but with an extra horn 04:28:41 (This font is intended for printing though, and might not be as good for use on screen) 04:29:41 The font I made (as well as the TeX Chess macro package, which also supports many variants and not only FIDE) is: http://zzo38computer.org/tex/texchess.zip 04:29:44 I should probably implement normal chess first xD 04:29:49 hmm, Tri looks interesting 04:30:21 although I suspect it could be "broken" via agreeing on entirely conventional meanings for the first few discards 04:32:17 ais523: But that's cheating 04:32:31 Do you know how to play shogi? 04:32:44 hppavilion[1]: is it, though, if you agree that before the game? 04:32:54 zzo38: I did once, but can't remember all the details 04:34:01 ais523: Yes. 04:34:08 Y'know, it's kinda sad. I want tea right now, but I accidentally bought decaf. 04:34:35 I'm still gonna make some, but it's not going to make me quite as happy. 04:34:40 I was actually looking at contract bridge quite a bit recently 04:34:47 because it reminded me of Rubicon 04:34:54 and esoprogramming in general 04:35:11 in that game you're trying to communicate a bunch with your partner via a prearranged protocol over a very low-bandwidth channel 04:36:06 Decaf black tea is definitely not the best. 04:36:14 nowadays Bridge has a rule that you have to tell your opponents what protocol you're using 04:36:27 and that particularly complex/unusual ones are banned in lower-level tournaments 04:37:02 That's sad 04:38:08 It does? 04:38:18 I haven't played Bridge in ~15 years, I don't remember much. 04:40:10 there are all sorts of charts about which conventions are too complicated (different ones in the US and UK) 04:40:21 I've been slowly trying to design a Bridge protocol to skirt the edges of them 04:40:31 while making close to the best possible use of bandwidth 04:40:34 err, convention 04:42:47 Do you know much about Famicom PPU? 04:51:51 I know only a very small amount 04:51:55 more than zero, but not by much 04:52:08 it can draw four sprites and a background, right? 04:52:15 …that's about the extent of my knowledge 04:53:22 Actually you can have up to 64 sprites 04:53:55 onscreen at the same time? 04:54:06 Yes 04:54:28 Only 8 sprites per scanline though; any more will not be drawn on that scanline 05:00:15 -!- bb010g has joined. 05:02:38 -!- bender| has joined. 05:02:38 `quote glurg 05:02:39 No output. 05:02:45 `quote glug 05:02:45 No output. 05:02:49 what 05:03:07 `quote glu 05:03:08 274) A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing returns would give; yet under quid pro quo one can agglutinate fabula and sujet into vagrancies untold. See? I'm intellectual. \ 680) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. 05:03:16 `quote 680 05:03:17 680) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. Glurk. 05:04:29 hppavilion[1]: that's from the continuous chess variant we once discussed here 05:04:45 except, possibly, the Atlantic part. 05:05:01 Huh 05:05:11 ok vaguely based. 05:05:39 basically a piece covered a square and you could move only parts of it 05:05:57 but longer 05:06:38 hm i'm not sure if you could move two half-pieces in one move or the like 05:06:53 [wiki] [[Category:Non-sexual]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44586 * 66.58.231.93 * (+89) Created page with "This category lists all languages that are not, in some way, relevant to human sexuality." 05:07:18 Um. 05:07:20 Interesting. 05:08:12 [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Non-sexual]]": unapproved category 05:08:23 I'm pretty sure that was trolling 05:08:35 darn you beat me by a second 05:08:36 but for now, let's delete it with an iron-clad deletion reason and see what happens 05:08:53 my reason was "Do I really need a reason" 05:10:47 [Whois] hppavilion[1] is ~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net (realname) 05:10:58 quite a coincidence of IP there… 05:11:07 ... 05:11:11 * hppavilion[1] runs for the door 05:11:18 I'm sorry, it just had to be done. 05:11:24 I couldn't help myself 05:11:33 it's OK 05:11:36 just don't do it again 05:11:44 darn and i had almost concluded that could be hagb4rd 05:12:12 That satisfies my biannual (every 2 years, not twice a year) random troll. I'm done for now. 05:12:13 right, I was checking to see if the IP was a known troll because I thought it might be something much worse 05:12:19 luckily it wasn't 05:12:23 oh wait silly 05:12:41 i had two different whois checks in my terminal window and scrolled up too far 05:14:08 and the other wasn't hagb4rd either, just german, i'd forgotten about it. 05:15:33 hppavilion[1]: you are forgiven http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20050606 05:20:44 [wiki] [[Blind]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44587&oldid=21436 * Ais523 * (+575) /* Computational class */ is TC; the simplest way is to encode a cellular automaton 05:20:50 I just proved a language TC 05:21:10 so I made actual esolanging progress today, always good to see 05:22:08 The concept of an "Orphaned WikiPage list" is kind of paradoxical 05:24:33 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:26:02 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 05:26:02 hppavilion[1]: the trick is that it's not made of wikilinks, but of ordinary HTML links 05:26:11 Ooooh 05:37:41 ais523: Wait, what's "Something much worse" 05:37:42 ? 05:38:04 hppavilion[1]: something much worse than you messing around, that is 05:38:07 Ah 05:38:27 my first thought was "I wonder if this is someone who we banned from esowiki in the past, editing logged out to dodge the ban" 05:40:34 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:41:15 How do I fork something in an Organization as a new thing on GitHub? 05:41:22 Or is that bad practice and I should use branches? 05:55:10 So to repeat an idea I brought up earlier to see if it's of any interest: GUI over IRC 05:55:49 hppavilion[1]: my experience with github is that branches save a lot of trouble compared to forks 05:55:55 OK 05:56:02 I got distracted from that anyway xD 05:56:13 I like GUI today. Have you noticed? 05:56:19 in actual git their mostly equivalent, but github screws up its fork handling for organizations really badly 05:56:21 and yes 05:57:02 Ah 05:57:26 I would like to see a way for people to communicate via GUIs 05:57:40 Wouldn't that be an interesting form of communication? Probably useless, but... 05:58:17 couldn't you just use a GUI IRC client? 05:58:20 or do you mean something else? 05:58:24 (ever seen MS Comic Chat?) 05:59:47 ais523: When I say GUI over IRC, I mean that the /messages/ can include GUI 06:00:22 do you mean graphics? 06:00:34 GUI has a specific meaning (a user interface that uses graphics for communication) 06:00:35 ais523: No. I mean GUI. 06:00:42 sending user interfaces over IRC doesn't make a whole lot of sense 06:00:47 Like widgets and shit 06:00:48 I know. 06:00:49 -!- mauris has joined. 06:00:49 unless you wanted to, say, tunnel X over IRC 06:00:50 with each message, you send a user interface to the other party which replaces their irc client 06:00:57 they have to use that ui to respond to you 06:01:01 That'd be interesting... 06:01:29 Comic chat looks cool 06:01:38 shachaf: That gives me an idea. Esoteric IRC client 06:02:45 What you just said is a good example. 06:03:21 There's a Go idiom where you send a message over a channel that includes a channel to send a response over. 06:03:24 hppavilion[1]: I was planning an esoteric IRC client once 06:03:37 one of the features was that you could swap nicks with someone else 06:03:40 Whoa 06:03:48 without the server or anyone else in the room knowing 06:03:49 IRC games should be a thing 06:03:57 Imma go over to #esoteric-games 06:03:59 (technically, it worked via getting each of the client to post messages for the other) 06:04:23 Of course xD 06:04:50 What other features would be fun to mess with people with? 06:04:53 I guess maybe that's also a pi calculus idiom. 06:05:07 I'm sure that got convoluted and slow very quickly 06:05:15 What's also a pi calculus idiom? 06:05:19 And what's pi calculus? 06:05:20 well it was never actually implemented 06:05:25 And what's an idiom, while we're at it 06:05:32 pi calculus is sort-of a concurrency version of lambda calculus 06:05:47 (i.e. that models concurrency rather than functions) 06:05:47 Ah 06:06:08 and an idiom is a phrase or other short sequence that has taken on a meaning of its own 06:06:21 and is used directly without really thinking about the constituent parts 06:06:37 e.g. a moderately common idiom in C is the !! operator, which casts integer to boolean 06:06:46 (it's really two not operators, but people think of it as a unit) 06:08:44 in natural language, idioms often make no sense when you look at their constituent words 06:09:01 but in programming language, it has to be at least correct enough that the compiler understands 06:11:19 In Ruby, "x while y" means "while y; x; end", and "begin x end" means the same as "x", but "begin x end while y" means "x; while y; x; end" 06:11:54 In C and some other program language you can use macros though 06:12:22 But I have used !! in C as well as in JavaScript codes and some other programming languages; it is not only for C 06:13:16 shachaf: that's similar to Perl, where "x while y;" means "while (y) {x};", and "do {x}" is equivalent to "x" if "x" is an expression, but "do {x} while y;" means "x; while (y) {x};" 06:14:12 Anyone feel like developing their own little free Wolfram-like language over the next 40 years, and making it FOSS just as a middle finger to the people who thought it was a good idea to make a proprietary programming language? 06:14:22 So Forte is looking interesting. 06:14:33 ais523: Probably inspired by that. 06:14:34 hppavilion[1], Hell to the yeah. 06:14:55 hppavilion[1]: well Wolfram's language itself is pretty terrible, to be fair 06:15:04 the only redeeming feature is the library it's normally shipped with 06:15:20 hppavilion[1]: I do think it is good idea to make up a free stuff like that yes. But it can even be a better kind of program too 06:15:21 ais523: True. I don't trust any language that includes non-ascii characters builtin 06:15:22 which I suspect took a huge amount of effort 06:15:36 Anyway I was thinking of a case where something used to be an idiom with a meaning in a language, but then the constructs it was made of were changed, but it was kept around as a special case. 06:15:58 ais523: That library is pretty amazing though. I mean, blurring faces in <20 lines of code is impressive. 06:16:19 well, a library can do anything, really 06:16:32 it's what proportion of useful things you can do that you care about 06:16:43 I've written a library that simulates NetHack games, you can use it with a few lines of code 06:16:50 but it doesn't do anything else 06:16:59 shachaf: what about that XOR EAX, EAX thing 06:17:10 Mostly reason to make FOSS Wolfram-like language so that you can run the same program on both 06:17:10 I guess that's an example. 06:17:43 I kind of want to develop a language for this though 06:17:54 oerjan: but "xor eax, eax" zeroes rax under x86_64 semantics without a special case 06:18:15 What about nop? 06:18:18 I suppose that making a language that complex that doesn't use non-ascii characters is a bit absurd 06:18:19 ais523: um that was the point? 06:18:24 While still being readable 06:18:26 That's supposed to be xchg eax, eax, isn't it? 06:18:46 of course i may have misremembered what the special case was 06:19:06 I guess the IDE adds characters like that for you... 06:19:11 oerjan: I thought the point you were trying to make was that a special case was added just so that you could zero well 06:19:22 also I was thinking about possibly there might be something to do with nop 06:19:28 ah, right 06:19:35 you can put a bunch of addressing modes on nop in order to make it longer 06:19:45 but putting addressing modes on xchg eax, eax would cause problems 06:19:55 A SQLite extension to access various data such as weather and so on a bit similarly to Mathematica might be a good idea in my opinion 06:19:56 xchg eax, (eax) means something quite different (and doesn't have a corresponding opcode, I think) 06:19:58 Well, 0x90 doesn't mean xchg eax, eax anymore in x86-64 06:20:04 Since that would zero the upper 32 bits. 06:20:10 shachaf: right 06:20:36 ais523 is the expert in 0x90, I guess. 06:20:38 (I now have to actualize my goal xD) I want to develop a fully-functional, high-level language, with as powerful tools as Mathematica and the like, just because I'm stuck in mind-numbing boredom. I have no clue how to do this, and am horribly underqualified, but dammit I want to. 06:21:21 so what's the idiomatic way to truncate rax to 32 bits in x86_64? (not that it's likely to be a very useful operation in most cases, I'm just curious) 06:21:40 Maybe mov eax, eax? 06:22:15 Also, xor eax, eax is implemented as a special case in CPUs, even if its behavior isn't special-cased. 06:22:43 Since it doesn't depend on the value of eax, unlike other uses of xor. 06:22:44 does "xor ebx, ebx" have an encoding? 06:22:51 err, not xor 06:22:53 xchg 06:24:01 Looks like it's 87 db 06:24:58 In x86-64 xchg eax, eax is encoded as 87 c0 06:26:05 huh, so there was a "short encoding" for certain xchg commands, but also a general one 06:27:16 I guess 87 c0 also encodes xchg eax, eax in x86-32, but assemblers just don't generate it. 06:27:40 the only reason to do so would be for alignment purposes 06:27:51 and most assemblers don't align via generating inefficient encodings, but rather by adding nops 06:28:05 alignment padding on x86_64 is hilarious 06:28:07 xchg eax, eax is a nop in x86-32 06:28:14 you start with nop and pile on as many modifiers as you can 06:28:19 I used to have a bunch of tools set up to look at things like this but I don't anymore. 06:28:39 apparently you can give data16 multiple times 06:28:47 There's a collection of fastest nops for each size for each CPU in Linux somewhere. 06:28:51 to make arbitrarily long commands (although I suspect there's a limit) 06:29:02 Aren't x86 instructions limited to 10 bytes or so? 06:29:05 I don't remember. 06:31:50 x86_64 clearly has a higher limit than that, although I'm not sure of the precise value 06:32:21 15 would make sense (to allow alignment on 16-byte boundaries) 06:44:59 -!- Patashu has joined. 06:46:46 So... no one wants to help in the design of my FOSS counter-wolfram lang? 06:50:38 I seem to recall a limit of 15, too. 06:52:00 hppavilion[1]: we're just really busy 06:52:06 there's a ton of things I'd like to help with but I don't have time 06:52:11 and/or mental energy 06:52:18 I do not know a lot about Mathematica though, so I cannot say. But, I have suggested SQLite extensions which could substitute for some of the data-access stuff such as weather and countries and chemistry and whatever, and then another extension could be used to plot the data on the graph. 06:52:42 -!- Patashu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:53:01 -!- Patashu has joined. 06:54:55 I wish we could all timewarp xD 07:21:23 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:21:45 -!- Patashu has joined. 07:30:01 why do you know the hex version of assembly code? 07:31:52 do you need to know them for writing compilers or what? 07:35:56 -!- sc00fy has joined. 07:38:17 izabera: you need to know it when writing assemblers, and it also matters if for some reason the number of bytes that one command assembles to matters (which it did, kind-of, in this conversation) 07:38:44 also stating the encoding of a command is a decent way to prove that there /is/ such an encoding 07:41:05 i wouldn't really call that a proof... 07:53:31 `` o=$(tempfile -s .o); echo 'add $1, %eax' | as -o $o - && objdump -d $o | grep '0:' | sed -e 's/\t/ /g;s/ */ /g;' # possible HackEgo command here 07:53:32 ​ 0: 83 c0 01 add $0x1,%eax 07:53:36 the real reason is that true programmer geeks soak up numbers like sponges hth (disclaimer: not a true programmer geek) 07:53:58 Possibly get rid of the 0: too. 07:55:23 oerjan: i understand that but i can't see how one can ever be exposed to that 07:56:09 and i realize that it may sound like an accusation, but i'm really just curious 07:56:15 llvm-mc is one of the tools I was thinking of. 07:56:27 And udcli is another one. 07:59:16 also what is that tempfile command? it's not in the arch repos 08:01:01 Part of a package called debianutils, here. 08:06:18 what's the difference with mktemp? :\ 08:09:03 "tempfile is deprecated; you should use mktemp(1) instead." 08:33:20 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:46:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:00:48 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:28:10 -!- gamemanj has joined. 09:58:20 -!- JesseH has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:06:17 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:06:17 -!- jameseb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:06:24 -!- jameseb has joined. 10:08:26 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:16:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: lunch). 10:44:15 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:50:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Ltr). 10:55:52 -!- gamemanj has joined. 11:07:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:15:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:16:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 11:27:44 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:38:15 The difference is that I didn't remember what the command-line command was, so I just looked for tab completion from "temp". 12:39:48 -!- bender| has changed nick to bender. 12:59:19 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:02:30 is there any tool that can be used to simulate a laggy connection? 13:10:03 yes but I can't remember what it is 13:10:15 some iptables setting, perhaps? 13:37:29 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/614795/simulate-delayed-and-dropped-packets-on-linux 13:37:43 i found that 13:38:00 i'm trying to use it 13:38:03 thank you 13:38:56 ah, too slow :) 13:39:17 most google results are windows only or bsd/osx only 13:39:42 https://jagt.github.io/clumsy/ this looks pretty cool :\ 13:49:35 -!- boily has joined. 13:49:58 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 14:13:12 `wisdom 14:13:13 antediluvian/We could tell you what antediluvian means, but that would just open a flood of questions. 14:46:53 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:52:43 There's a number of them. 14:53:55 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:54:21 -!- Wright has joined. 14:54:39 http://info.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/dummynet/ is one. 14:56:04 holy fungot is that one ugly website... 14:56:04 boily: i can do something like: allocate cons-cells and bigger object separately, tagging cons-cells with fnord and outmoded concepts such as memory addresses, or look at peter wegner's more recent 10 years or so, iirc 14:56:05 . o O ( The original meaning of antediluvian has been washed away. ) 14:56:26 Yes, I've noted the ugly website too. 14:56:59 Oh, and Facebook's ATC also made the news. 14:57:05 http://facebook.github.io/augmented-traffic-control/ 14:57:34 `wisdom 14:57:35 mockingbird/mockingbird is watching you.. closely! Is it mocking you? Probably. 14:58:08 facebook has an ATC??? 14:58:16 oh. not that ATC. 14:58:30 helloily 14:58:36 It's perhaps a bit more Linux-native (iptables + tc, as opposed to FreeBSD ipfw stuff), and very much designed for testing mobile apps against "reasonable" profiles. 14:58:37 happy saturday! 14:58:41 QUINTHELLOPIA! 14:58:57 bon samedi pis plein d'affaires de même! 14:59:02 @metar CYUL 14:59:03 CYUL 031400Z 06017KT 30SM FEW025 BKN240 08/02 A3062 RMK CU1CI6 SLP369 14:59:06 @metar KATL 14:59:06 KATL 031452Z 04009KT 10SM SCT012 OVC025 17/13 A2971 RMK AO2 DZE14 SLP056 P0000 60001 T01670133 53005 14:59:23 quintopia: pfeuh. you vile bourgeois living in warm weathers. 14:59:25 yeah its rain today 14:59:38 hurricanes and floods and such 15:00:05 @metar EGLL 15:00:07 EGLL 031450Z AUTO 22006KT 190V260 7000 NCD 16/10 Q1013 15:00:50 It was a cold (FSVO) and dim morning, but then turned out to be all nicelike. 15:01:39 this week i learned that the shape of finland is very generic and nondescript 15:01:53 Huh? It's human-shaped. 15:02:26 A woman wearing a dress, to be more precise. 15:02:47 well thats a description 15:03:04 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:03:22 it still is not as readily visually identifiable as thailand or mexico or mauritania :) 15:03:41 Maybe the other arm would help, but we no longer have it. 15:04:36 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Finland#/media/File:Finland_1920.png 15:04:42 Well, maybe that's not much of an improvement. 15:04:42 well, Finland would have to exist first if we want to describe its shape. 15:05:36 (Also the arms are proportionally speaking rather tiny.) 15:06:16 lol 15:06:33 mostly its just scrotumlike 15:09:03 where does this theory that finland doesn't exist come from? 15:09:06 ?< finland 15:09:07 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 15:09:09 err 15:09:11 `? finland 15:09:12 Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus. 15:10:32 https://m.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2qjohv/what_did_your_parents_show_you_to_do_that_you/ 15:10:45 it was a prank or something 15:11:01 this kid was raised not to believe in it 15:11:15 `? sweden 15:11:16 Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize. 15:11:25 `? norway 15:11:26 Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced. 15:11:47 And therefore, Math is Peace. 15:12:37 the Recurscandinavian Countries. 15:12:41 I suspect one of the premises is flawed. Or my hidden assumption that no Nobel price is announced twice. 15:13:28 well, if norway and sweden are contained within each other 15:13:29 wouldn't any announcement in either necessarily happen in both? 15:13:39 just like an announcement that takes place in London also takes place in England 15:13:47 `? zimbabwe 15:13:48 olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation. 15:14:36 `? misspellings of croissant 15:14:37 misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:14:39 that one is so silly. 15:15:50 i dont see how one could misspell it that badly 15:16:01 `rm wisdom/devious 15:16:03 No output. 15:16:04 given how it is pronounced 15:16:14 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 15:17:04 `cat wisdom/itidus* 15:17:05 cat: wisdom/itidus*: No such file or directory 15:17:09 `` cat wisdom/itidus* 15:17:10 itidus19 disappeared into a space-time anomaly \ itidus20's entry has been censored. \ itidus21 just made some instant coffee. 15:17:18 /kʀwa'sã/. 15:18:07 sounds like roissy 15:19:10 /ʀwasi/? 15:19:13 `` cat wisdom/[ck]anada 15:19:14 Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big. \ Your bankers' vain plazas never nutured no one / And your concrete expanses lay fallow in the sun / And your cities all collapsing while your corrupt mayors shrug 15:20:06 `? burma 15:20:07 ask Bike 15:20:21 is there a story here? 15:25:51 . o O ( /bʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀmɒ/ ) 15:27:47 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:29:11 `le/rn drone sex/Drone sex has never been observed in the wild; in fact it's rare to see drones in their natural habitat because they are extremely shy. Controlled experiments with drones in captivity have only resulted in broken drones, and a rotor stuck in the ceiling. We are still looking for a biological explanation for the ever increasing drone population. 15:29:15 Learned «drone sex» 15:30:08 huh. HackEgo uses French guillemets. I didn't notice that before. 15:31:05 well, `learn doesn't 15:31:42 -!- Wright has joined. 15:32:12 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:35:20 `? footnote 8 15:35:21 Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes? 15:35:33 `culprits wisdom/footnote 8 15:35:35 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 shachaf 15:36:49 damn now I'm wondering whether it really was footnote 8 15:37:42 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:38:48 it's the eighth footnote. it's footnote eight. it is logical. 15:40:03 `? frotz 15:40:04 frotz? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:40:14 `? xyzzy 15:40:15 Nothing happens. 15:40:45 `? plugh 15:40:46 A hollow voice says "Plugh" 15:40:54 I believe those are mine. 15:41:38 Okay, it was footnote 11 (though it's quite possible that the joke was used several times). 15:41:50 >footnote 11 15:41:50 Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes? 15:41:50 >footnote 12 15:41:50 This is the famous recursive footnote (Footnote 12). 15:43:22 `? footnote 1337 15:43:23 footnote 1337? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:43:44 (But I first saw it in the Hitchhiker infocom game.) 15:51:10 [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44588&oldid=44582 * Vihan * (+92) Added KEEP command 15:52:16 [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44589&oldid=44588 * Vihan * (+48) Added example 15:53:18 int-e: I think I just didn't look up the number. 15:53:35 Or rather I reused the text and not the number, because the HackEgo footnote system is different. 15:53:44 But it wouldn't hurt to add a few footnotes throughout wisdom/. 16:03:52 -!- Wright has joined. 16:12:01 -!- MoALTz has joined. 16:18:46 -!- bender has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:23:25 hello 16:24:25 hi 16:24:37 ais523: there's one more thing I forgot about ayacc. Since you distribute it as a bare script file snapshot through http now, can you throw in an __END__ (or control-z character) to the end of the script so that there's an easy way to tell that the file is not truncated please? 16:25:12 I'll think about it when I get back to ayacc 16:25:26 this is a pretty unusual request, though (especially because the webserver doesn't exactly keep its size secret) 16:25:54 * boily drinks coffee. boily is happy. 16:25:55 yes, it's not too important 16:37:49 <\oren\> hi 16:40:16 <\oren\> `? zabie 16:40:17 zabie? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:46:36 -!- JesseH has joined. 16:48:24 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:49:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:05:28 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 17:05:32 Some of these Selenium WebDriver method names are... well, overly Java-ey. 17:05:34 E.g. ExpectedConditions.frameToBeAvailableAndSwitchToIt. 17:09:23 -!- jalumar has joined. 17:09:55 They're also occasionally inconsistent. There's presenceOfAllElementsLocatedBy(By locator) but presenceOfElementLocated(By locator). The first one leads to duplicate By-ness if you use a By.id(...) style locator. 17:11:11 SeleniumWebDriverOverlyLongJavaMethodName 17:11:26 *s 17:11:31 or wait 17:11:44 * oerjan doesn't actually know java case conventions 17:13:10 God laurdag, godtfolk 17:14:50 * oerjan translates boily's greeting and gets udder nonsence 17:14:53 *s 17:15:29 @metar ENVA 17:15:30 ENVA 031650Z 12004KT CAVOK 10/07 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 16007KT 17:16:33 UpperCamelCase for types and lowerCamelCase for other things, to summarize it very briefly. 17:16:52 And UPPERCASE_WITH_SNAKES for constants. 17:17:52 SERPENTIALLY_OVERWROUGHT_VALUES, check 17:21:24 fizzie: classes are UpperCamelCase 17:21:28 primitive types are in lowercase 17:21:37 (because they wouldn't parse otherwise, among other things) 17:24:29 oerjan: «pis» can mean udder, but is common vernacular for “and” hth 17:24:34 I'm not sure if annotations count as classes, but they're in @UpperCamelCase. 17:26:21 And type variables are UpperCamelCase except often only one letter, and/or suffixed by a T. 17:26:53 According to the language standard, interfaces are not classes, and they're also UpCaCa. 17:27:42 oerjan: also, how do you pronounce "dt"? 17:28:02 (Annotations seem to count as interfaces, apparently.) 17:29:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:29:16 boily: the d is silent hth 17:29:43 or alternatively, dt ~ tt in pronunciation 17:30:40 d is frequently silent in norwegian, especially nynorsk like this 17:31:39 o 17:31:45 (the d in god is also silent) 17:31:57 but not laurdag because reasons? 17:32:08 well there it starts a syllable 17:32:25 boily: I often use «» as an IRC equivalent of 17:32:27 it's mostly silent at the end of them, or before consonants 17:32:39 because it's unlikely to clash with anything in the text I'm trying to quote (which is normally ASCII) 17:32:44 possible exception: Perl 6 17:32:51 g is also often silent in similar places, but not in laurdag 17:34:59 Norwegian is weird... silent letters all over the place. *shudders* 17:35:00 also the a in the au diphtong is closer to ø than a 17:35:18 ais523: tdh. 17:35:25 *+h 17:36:13 -!- ^v has joined. 17:36:23 it might depend on dialect, i saw a claim in wikipedia it was close to æ 17:37:59 boily: yeah you're lucky french doesn't have any 17:38:03 * oerjan runs away 17:40:53 ours are all nicely sorted out at the end of each word, not haphazardly strewn in the middle of them! that's uncouth and vulgar. tsé. 17:41:42 what other language has perfected the art of «-aient»? 17:42:27 the -ai- part is also silent? i never got to the more advanced tenses in french class. 17:43:06 oerjan: no, the "ai" is pronounced 17:43:22 only the "-ent" ending is silent (and only in verbs) 17:43:23 ok 17:43:32 i do remember that 17:44:34 third person plural indicative imperfect. 17:45:05 yes, as in “parlaient” 17:52:08 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:53:49 <\oren\> I think I would have learned more french in high school had they stuck to teaching spoken frenh 17:55:16 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 17:55:33 <\oren\> but no, I remember tests in which you had to remember all these extra letters 17:56:02 -!- ais523 has quit. 17:57:05 <\oren\> それは嫌だぞ 17:58:07 さぁ、c'est pas si pire que ça でしょう. 18:01:33 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:04:34 hppavellon[1]. do you conjugate your verbs? 18:10:49 -!- sc00fy has joined. 18:10:59 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Finland#/media/File:Finland_1920.png <-- huh i didn't know finland reached all the way to the arctic ocean between the world wars 18:11:12 and separating norway from the soviet union, even 18:12:18 -!- variable has joined. 18:13:16 <\oren\> oerjan: would you prefer to have a buffer between you and Russia? 18:13:49 right now that might be nice 18:14:10 otoh then the finns would probably demand some of the sea border, too 18:16:30 `help 18:16:30 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 18:17:00 Gregor: erm repository browser is no longer working halp 18:22:28 oerjan: I got intermittent proxy failures earlier... try again? 18:23:00 i'm just getting this page with a guy in a hat tdnh 18:24:35 odd, works for me. 18:24:43 wat 18:25:11 with the url in the `help? 18:25:17 yes. 18:25:20 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 18:26:02 and I don't even have any funny entries in /etc/hosts (this has happened before... it was worth checking) 18:26:23 it just redirects, which is annoying because i cannot reload the page when i cannot get to it... 18:26:32 it did change gregor's hat, though 18:27:10 Gregor has several hats? 18:27:19 ... 18:27:39 is there really any possibility that you haven't noticed that before 18:27:47 so he does, on http://codu.org/ 18:28:07 look in the about me menu 18:28:12 yes, I normally don't reload the page... and I'm only there very rarely. 18:29:12 (what I really meant is that the picture on the home page changes randomly... didn't realize that before) 18:29:33 OKAY 18:30:43 hm i wonder 18:30:44 oerjan: but still I have no clue how you end up on that page since codu usually prints 404 rather than redirecting you to the root... 18:30:54 `` echo ho >test 18:30:55 No output. 18:31:12 nope, still redirects 18:31:19 I see that commit 18:31:36 have you tried a different browser? 18:31:57 are you behind any funny filters that would object to the word "sex"? 18:33:04 -!- copumpkin has joined. 18:33:11 \oren\: I think the green highlighting in http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm is inaccurate 18:34:37 `fetch http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg 18:34:41 2015-10-03 18:34:27 URL:http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi [21582] -> "fshg" [1] 18:34:46 `cat fshg 18:34:47 ​ \ \ \ \ \ i'm now trying to set IE to reload pages on every visit. unfortunately that caused it to nag that the disk usage was too high and i am now waiting for it to resize the cache or something. 18:35:06 `` grep changeset fshg 18:35:07
  • changeset
  • \
    find changesets by author, revision, 18:35:14 looks legit. 18:35:27 `` rm fshg test 18:35:31 No output. 18:36:06 oh right, a cached "moved permanently" would do the trick... 18:36:39 * int-e doesn't know the numeric value. 18:36:49 nope. it just reloads the codu.org page itself. 18:37:07 IE you say... 18:38:07 wait, does the browse use flash (ok not likely) 18:38:16 i just disabled it in general 18:38:24 *browser 18:38:57 Dear Virtualbox, what do you mean by "General failure - DON'T USE THIS!!!"? 18:42:30 darn, there's a list of "allowed sites" for flash but it won't let me edit it to anything other than * or empty 18:43:26 so much for my plan to see if it was responsible for the cpu leak i've been experiencing recently 18:44:43 oh well i'll just put this down to the universe's general dislike of me using computers. 18:52:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:03:12 <\oren\> b_jonas: Oh. Yeah, hold on, I'll fix that 19:07:59 -!- jalumar has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:10:56 <\oren\> that oughta do it 19:12:38 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:22:35 \oren\: great, now only the new kanji/hanzi are green 19:22:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:30:07 \oren\: also, I don't see that problem where the kanji don't line up in a grid anymore. either you fixed it, there was a cache problem, or it differs by which browser or system I'm viewing the page in. 19:32:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:33:19 Wow, seriously? That error indicates that virtualbox cannot access any audio device?! 19:34:36 (this is not entirely clear, but disabling the soundcard as suggested by https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=69722 did help me as well) 19:35:00 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PISTON CHICKEN). 19:36:05 -!- variable has changed nick to function. 19:42:27 -!- lleu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:48:41 -!- XorSwap has joined. 19:50:19 -!- jalumar has joined. 19:58:01 boily: it's not /kʀwa'zɔ̃/? 19:59:16 @tell hppavilion[1] So I guess you'd define a ring syntactically by means of a ring presentation. 19:59:16 Consider it noted. 20:01:47 tswett, presentations are really slippery though... 20:01:57 What do you mean? 20:03:00 it might be undecidable whether two terms are equal, for one thing. 20:03:20 yeah, that 20:03:24 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:03:49 i mean i took a module on hyperbolic groups last term and that was bad enough 20:08:55 -!- XorSwap has joined. 20:09:09 -!- TieSoul has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:15:01 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 20:15:20 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:16:27 Yeah, this is true. 20:16:42 And of course, given two presentations, you can't tell whether they present isomorphic rings or not. 20:16:51 I guess that's probably semidecidable, right? 20:18:28 yeah if you can guess the formulation of each generator set in the other, and the equality proofs... 20:18:35 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:20:09 s/guess/brute force search/ 20:20:25 <\oren\> whats a hyperbolic group 20:20:45 <\oren\> `? hyperbolic group 20:20:46 hyperbolic group? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:21:33 <\oren\> I bet it's a group that exaggerates things 20:21:34 `le/rn hyperbolic group/Hyperbolic groups are the best group there are, they're totally awesome and cure cancer. 20:21:37 Learned «hyperbolic group» 20:21:41 oops 20:21:44 <\oren\> yeah 20:21:53 `le/rn hyperbolic group/Hyperbolic groups are the best groups there are, they're totally awesome and cure cancer. 20:21:55 Learned «hyperbolic group» 20:22:14 @tell hppavilion[1] A ring presentation consists of a bunch of variables and equations of the form "P = 0", where P is a polynomial in those variables. The elements of the ring are all possible polynomials in those variables, with the caveat that two polynomials are equal if and only if you can show that they're equal given the equations. 20:22:14 Consider it noted. 20:22:26 Somebody will now criticize my definition. 20:22:55 it scans horribly tdnh 20:23:49 I tried to scan it and my scanner said I was counterfeiting money and automatically called the police! 20:24:09 This presentation thing only works for finite cases, right? 20:24:25 For finite cases of what? 20:24:56 Good question. 20:25:35 tswett: i guess you shouldn't have included the Omron rings in your presentation 20:26:06 shachaf: also _some_ infinite ones hth 20:26:24 oerjan: Yes, but those are just special cases, right? 20:26:24 or actually 20:26:30 * shachaf is trying to remember. 20:26:38 there's also infinite presentations. so no, it covers everything. 20:26:56 rather trivially, really. 20:27:01 Only finitely presented rings have presentations that are finite. 20:27:02 OK, but you have to be more careful for infinite presentations? 20:27:25 Every group is "infinitely presented"—just say the generators are its elements and the relations are the true equations. 20:27:28 Aha. 20:27:39 (just include a generator for every element and an equation for every arithmetic pairing) 20:27:59 "There are infinitary theories (such as that of complete Boolean algebras - see Johnstone [82]) where this is insuperable and presentations simply don't present algebras. For frames, fortunately, presentations do present, but we have to argue slightly carefully to show this. The trick is ..." 20:28:26 I guess that's not relevant to rings. 20:28:41 this generalizes to any variety of universal algebra, i assume. 20:28:50 <\oren\> I always hated doing presentations in school 20:28:54 which may not include every "theory". 20:29:06 Even universal algebra where you have infinite-ary operators? 20:29:26 completeness is probably a topological thing so you cannot include it 20:30:03 Oh, I have some milk now. 20:30:15 What's a good rice to use for that Norwegian rice thing? 20:30:25 \oren\: which were your least favorite: individual presentations, group presentations, or ring presentations? 20:30:26 Does it matter? 20:30:41 Do you wash the rice or is it better to keep the starch? 20:31:42 <\oren\> tswett: I 20:31:58 <\oren\> think I liked the individual ones the least 20:32:33 <\oren\> I've never done a ring presentation (although I have had a few girlfriends) 20:32:47 shachaf: customary the rice is short and white, i'm not a rice expert. 20:32:51 *ily 20:33:43 wait i have this vague memory that we used something exotic once (basmati?) and it was much better. 20:34:25 @quote shachaf identity 20:34:25 No quotes match. I am sorry. 20:34:28 what! 20:34:39 <\oren\> @quote shachaf 20:34:39 shachaf says: roconnor_: The Monomorschism? 20:34:44 <\oren\> @quote shachaf 20:34:44 shachaf says: Henning should call all his modules M 20:35:00 <\oren\> @quote shachaf i 20:35:00 shachaf says: your comment on irc was enlightening. i never thought i would learn so much about this subject! very interesting. it's the sort of comment we see on my favorite irc channel, #enlargeyourmortgage. an excellent read, thanks again! 20:35:46 <\oren\> @quote shachaf I 20:35:47 shachaf says: i they are so love easy threads 20:35:55 <\oren\> @quote shachaf I 20:35:55 shachaf says: (\l -> Data.Array.IArray.elems $ runST $ do { arr <- newListArray (0,length l - 1) l :: ST s (STArray s Int Int); (`fix` 0) $ \loop i -> do { v <- readArray arr i; writeArray arr i (v^2); when (i < (length l - 1)) (loop (i+1))}; iarr <- unsafeFreeze arr; return (iarr :: Array Int Int) }) That's the best way to square all the 20:35:55 elements of a list in Haskell, by far. 20:36:09 /msg lambdabot hth 20:36:37 shachaf: i saw (very belatedly, i'm > 1 month late on /r/haskell) this discussion of renaming * to Type or something, and i thought "just make it T to annoy thielemann". 20:37:37 <\oren\> I usually use T to mean a string 20:37:50 <\oren\> the other streng besides S 20:38:33 <\oren\> As in, "Let S,T,U be bit strings of lengths L,M,N" 20:38:36 shachaf: what's #enlargeyourmortagelike twh 20:39:06 * like 20:39:41 <\oren\> why isn't mortgage spelled morkage? 20:40:03 \oren\: or look at http://ircbrowse.net/nick/shachaf?recent=false hth 20:40:20 except that's only quotes in #haskell, and it includes some bad ones that were thankfully @forgotten 20:40:20 Because when pronunciations change, the spellings often stay the same instead of being updated to reflect the new pronunciations. 20:40:41 \oren\: apparently morgage exists but is obsolete 20:40:46 Because it derives from "mort gage" 20:41:21 http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=mortgage - also because of Latinobonerists. 20:41:59 That's not Latin boner people, just the Norman conquest. 20:42:16 Pretty typical example of Law French. 20:42:47 pikhq: hikhq 20:42:48 but wiktionary said it was spelled morgage in anglo-norman 20:42:53 @metar KOAK 20:42:53 KOAK 031953Z 31007KT 10SM FEW012 21/13 A2960 RMK AO2 SLP023 T02110128 20:43:04 'rtg' doesn't seem like a very latin consonant cluster 20:43:23 tru dat 20:43:24 <\oren\> @metar CYYZ 20:43:24 CYYZ 032000Z 08014G28KT 15SM -RA FEW045 OVC058 10/03 A3037 RMK CU1NS7 SLP288 20:43:32 oerjan: Looks as though both spellings coexisted. 20:43:54 <\oren\> we got a cold north wind here 20:44:39 \oren\: http://ircbrowse.net/browse/haskell?q=oren 20:45:42 <\oren\> looks like a different oren 20:46:07 correct 20:46:11 (it's my father) 20:46:42 i thought your father was called something starting with s 20:46:51 <\oren\> Aha. so this oren is spelled with a ו 20:46:58 oh, i misremembered i suppose 20:47:12 A ו? Officially not. 20:47:49 <\oren\> I thought ו was o and u in hebrew? 20:47:55 It's a vowel. 20:47:57 <\oren\> with different dots 20:48:00 In this context. 20:48:08 <\oren\> I see 20:48:24 But the letter representing the o sound is a glottal stop. 20:48:26 א 20:49:33 <\oren\> uhhh... Ok I have no idea how Hebrew works 20:49:46 do you know how korean works? 20:49:50 i think hangul has the same deal 20:50:12 <\oren\> Hangul works the same as english, but the letters are in blocks instead linear 20:50:45 <\oren\> So how does aleph represent o in some words but a in others? 20:50:59 it's like ㅇ, i think 20:51:28 are there not vowel markers involved 20:51:32 you know japanese or something like that, right? 20:51:41 <\oren\> Yeas I know Japanese 20:51:56 how does s represent そ in some words but さ in others? 20:52:05 aleph is just another consonant 20:52:07 \oren\, if it helps, words that 'start' with a vowel in english actually start with an implicit glottal stop 20:52:49 <\oren\> Oh, so the vowels aren't marked at all, and aleph represents the fact there is some vowel there but not which one? 20:53:33 they are marked sometimes, but aleph is not the vowel here 20:54:02 \oren\: see http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-09-10.2318.html where it talks about Hebrew and Arabic 20:55:04 so you might write אורן 20:55:23 the ו represents a vowel, but the word starts with a glottal stop 20:56:05 b_jonas, this is unhelpful as i do not speak french 20:56:28 <\oren\> I see... Wrods that start with a glottal stop are a new one to me, but theres no reason why that can't happen 20:57:13 They aren't particularly new to you. Every English word that starts with a vowel -- like "aren't" and "every" and "english" and "a" and "and" -- starts with a glottal stop. 20:57:38 <\oren\> What about the e vowel in oren? 20:57:41 shachaf: no, I don't think so. not according to that blog entry I just linked to 20:57:55 b_jonas: Unfortunately I don't know much French. 20:58:10 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:58:17 <\oren\> the start of the oh in uh-oh is different from the start of O in O Canada 20:58:50 They sound the same to me? 20:59:16 i don't think the initial glottal stop is universal in english 20:59:23 but it's very common all the same 20:59:38 Sometimes it gets slurred away, of course. 21:00:13 shachaf: that article specifically explains that some languages, namely Hebrew, Arabic, possibly Dutch, require a pause before all words that start with a vowel, so Hebrew and Arabic treats such words as starting with a glottal stop consonant, which that article suggests to call a ʔalif. 21:01:14 shachaf: the writing systems for Hebrew and Arabic are abjads, and they write a ʔalif letter at the start of that word, which is why it's natural to analyze those languages that way. 21:01:42 <\oren\> Oh I see, in english I do do it at the start of a sentence, so for e.g. 'eat an apple' there is something in my throat at the start of 'eat' but not the other two words 21:01:45 (It is not mentioned in that article, but lojban is also like that.) 21:02:39 \oren\: The "proper" pronunciation of that sentence would include the thing that I think of as a glottal stop for each of those words. 21:02:42 shachaf: however, the article also tells that this isn't the only thing ʔalif is used for, namely long vowels in Hebrew and Arabic are often represented as a fake consonant sign with a vowel mark, 21:02:43 Or so I think. 21:02:56 and ʔalif is used as such a consonant sign for some vowels. 21:03:27 And also that the arabic writing system is complicated and it won't try to tell all the rules. 21:03:48 <\oren\> in my spelling it's 'Et N apL' 21:04:03 I don't think the things you're saying match up with my intuitive understanding of things. 21:04:06 There's no pause. 21:04:24 And you can have aleph in the middle of words as a glottal stop, no problem. 21:04:28 shachaf: however, most languages, including English, French, (Hungarian, not mentioned in the article) do have lots of common words that actaully start with a vowel, and they're pronounced (usually) without a stop or pause before them, 21:05:04 so I think there's no point saying that English words that start with a vowel have a glottal stop before them, because nobody pronounces them that way. 21:05:14 <\oren\> there's no stop in english, we slur all our words together and that is perfectly ok 21:05:32 shachaf: yes, it _can_ mean a glottal stop in the middle of a word, because it does work like a real consonant. 21:06:12 shachaf: but the letter can also represent a long vowel, and this isn't even specific for aleph, because there are a couple of other consonant signs that are sometimes used to mark a long vowel, and sometimes a consonant, in Hebrew and Arabic. 21:06:27 I think people slur glottal stops at the beginnings of words into the previous word about as much in Hebrew and in English. 21:06:45 I would say that "eat", "an", and "apple" all start with the same sound, standing on their own. 21:07:03 shachaf: does that apply to Arabic too? 21:07:09 as opposed to Hebrew that is 21:07:17 <\oren\> hmm, well in english it isn't analyzed normally as having a glottal stop at the start 21:07:24 If you say them quickly one after the other, sure, there might be a spot of slurring. But that's a result of how you combine words, not the words in themselves. 21:07:28 b_jonas: I don't know. 21:09:00 let me re-read the article, maybe it says this only about Dutch (sometimes) and Arabic 21:09:43 <\oren\> for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Consonant_examples doesn't include glottal stop as one of the consonantal inventory of english 21:09:45 Speaking a sentence made up of individual words is a complicated process. Just saying each word in the sentence separately sounds very unnatural. 21:10:01 shachaf: yes, sorry, it doesn't specifically seem to say this about Hebrew, only about Arabic 21:10:26 b_jonas: aleph is *also* used in hebrew as a pseudo-vowel in some cases 21:11:13 \oren\: You must admit that the two 'i's in the IPA for "english" are pronounced very differently. 21:11:14 in fact, it says very little about Hebrew 21:11:35 strange 21:12:02 it also doesn't seem to specifically say that aleph is used to write a long vowel in Hebrew 21:12:18 It says that about Arabic 21:13:06 “il faut préciser que l'arabe utiliser des consonnes pour marquer l'allongement des voyelles : la voyelle longue ‘ī’ est notée ‘{i}y’, la voyelle longue ‘ū’ est notée ‘{u}w’, et la voyelle longue ‘ā’ est notée par un ‘{a}’ suivi d'un ʔalif, justement ; dans tous les cas, j'écris la voyelle entre accolades parce que les voyelles ne sont normalement pas écrites en arabe, donc seule reste visible la consonne d'allongement 21:13:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:13:20 I think that's more or less true for Hebrew as well, but that article doesn't say 21:13:23 I'll ask in a comment 21:13:42 <\oren\> shachaf: sounds like inglish to me, with two of the same i? 21:14:09 I think this is a different mental model of how vowels work. 21:14:36 By the way, glottal stops in the middles of words are also often slurred away in colloquial Hebrew. 21:14:58 This would be much easier in a spoken conversation, because I could hear what you're saying and demonstrate what I mean. 21:15:31 shachaf: sorry about the confusion 21:16:08 <\oren\> Hmm.. maybe I can demonstrate 21:16:31 <\oren\> does windows still come with wave sound recorder 21:16:37 shachaf: isn't Old English the language that's (also sometimes) analyzed with a glottal stop at the beginning of (most) words starting with a vowel? 21:16:42 as opposed to English 21:16:47 I don't know. 21:17:38 you could try to ask on ##linguistics, but that channel is very rarely on-topic 21:18:06 I've had bad experiences with linguists before. 21:18:24 or you could try http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/ 21:18:34 i met a nice linguist once 21:18:38 but then i also met augur 21:18:55 Phantom_Hoover: :( 21:19:05 I've experienced half of that... 21:19:31 shachaf doesnt like me because i dont like him because he was a dick to me. its a funny world we live in 21:19:40 it's ok augur i still like you 21:19:43 <3 21:20:00 Phantom_Hoover: there are lots of nice linguists on the internet. 21:20:21 especially if you count amateurs like David Madore (whose article I linked) 21:20:24 b_jonas: i dont think Old English has that, but Modern English does 21:20:34 augur: has what? 21:20:39 Good time to end the discussion. 21:20:41 -!- shachaf has left. 21:20:46 glottal stops before vowels at the beginning of words 21:20:54 hmm 21:20:59 how do you even find that out 21:21:09 there now, you see? shachaf has been doing this for ages :| 21:21:10 http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/2585/rules-for-glottal-stop-insertion-across-languages hth 21:21:19 Phantom_Hoover: find what out? 21:21:56 Phantom_Hoover: you read the freaking blog post I linked to, which specifically talks about English? 21:22:00 <\oren\> heres a recording of me reading out some of the previous text formt his channed 21:22:00 -!- boily has joined. 21:22:03 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/demonstrate.wma 21:22:18 I mean, how else do you find out things these days, other than looking them up on the internet or asking in irc 21:22:26 augur, whether old english had initial glottal stops 21:22:41 b_jonas, i did make it clear that i don't speak french, right 21:22:46 oh. well you can try reconstructions of the phonology and stuff 21:24:10 <\oren\> oh, shachaf left 21:24:22 <\oren\> well whatever 21:25:05 -!- shachaf has joined. 21:25:16 shachaf: i delight in knowing that i can grind your gears just by answering your questions. 21:25:22 this is hardly a new thing 21:25:31 shachaf: i know its not new 21:25:42 we've been at this for years 21:25:46 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/demonstrate.wma <- heres a recording of what my dialect sounds like in case you missed it 21:26:10 stop being dicks to each other will you 21:26:16 even tho we've barely interacted in, say, the last 5 years 21:26:40 Phantom_Hoover: its hard to be dicks to one another when we dont interact :) 21:26:47 Is .wma the only format you have? Can't you have FLAC format? 21:26:48 \oren\: I think we've talked about the ch in my name before. 21:27:10 zzo38: oh hi 21:27:16 I wanted to say something about esoteric stuff 21:27:28 <\oren\> zzo38: I'll do the next one as mp3 or something 21:27:47 <\oren\> wma was the default when I saed it 21:28:03 You shouldn't use MP3 either, use FLAC 21:28:16 <\oren\> is flac compress? 21:28:32 Yes it is compressed, but it is lossless 21:28:47 the c stands for compression :) 21:28:52 Free Lossless Audio Compression 21:29:21 (If you want lossy compression you can use Vorbis, which is still better quality than MP3; but FLAC is better quality because it is lossless.) 21:29:43 <\oren\> anyway AFAIK I don't use glottal stops 21:29:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: flee roses, oh dear compassion). 21:29:53 if you want audio on the internet, you're best with MP3 of course, since its widely implemented, compared to FLAC and vorbis 21:31:16 zzo38: do you care about esoteric C++? 21:32:51 -!- function has changed nick to trout. 21:33:33 I don't care much about C++, but you can do it anyways if you want to 21:34:05 oh... for some reason I thought you did at least non-esoteric C++ 21:34:23 As I said, there's a lot that changes when you speak a sentence compared to the individual words. 21:35:58 \oren\: are you a native speaker of English? if so, which dialect? 21:36:56 <\oren\> Canadian English, I guess the toronto regional accent 21:37:17 then you definitely have glottal stops :) 21:37:33 <\oren\> in what words? 21:37:40 <\oren\> other than uh-oh 21:37:42 in every word that begins with a vowel! 21:37:49 <\oren\> bulshit 21:37:51 and only when the vowel is initial 21:38:14 but glottal stops are hard for native speakers to hear, because its phonologically not there 21:38:29 it only gets inserted in certain conditions 21:39:12 its fairly well known about native english speakers that they cant hear their glottal stops, tho. singing teachers struggle with this all the time 21:41:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 21:42:33 \oren\: i can hear lots of glottal stops in your audio file :) 21:42:45 <\oren\> wut 21:43:16 i know, its hard to hear them. i bet you cant hear the two different p's either! 21:44:07 i get glottal stops but i don't get aspiration 21:44:35 Phantom_Hoover: you mean you cant hear the aspiration? me neither usually. its very hard to hear for me 21:44:42 indeed 21:44:43 i have to really focus 21:45:09 Linguistics is 1% aspiration and 99% perspiration. 21:45:40 <\oren\> Ok i've recorded anothewr one, this time a passage from a calculus textbook 21:45:49 lmfao shachaf :) 21:46:48 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/calculus.wma 21:47:24 <\oren\> onus points if you can figure out which calculus textbook this is 21:47:28 \oren\: glottal stops everywhere! 21:48:33 <\oren\> agh where I don't hear any 21:48:39 i know you dont :) its ok 21:48:47 augur, oh also while we're here, i noticed a while back that i say 'tl' (as in bottle or glottal) with a lateral plosive or something 21:48:53 of course the only true test would be to get some nice, clean, high-quality audio and put it through a spectrogram and show you 21:48:56 what did Bubbles do with his lips? 21:49:01 or her lips 21:49:11 but i couldn't find any reference to this being 'a thing' and it's nagged at me since 21:50:01 someone on Language Log once mentioned a situation where one of their chinese students was in utter disbelief that she was deleting certain consonants or whatever in her speech 21:50:33 so they put it through a spectrogram and looked and even upon seeing the spectro, the student insisted that it had been tampered with because she could HEAR the damn things! 21:51:27 except there really was nothing to hear, its just that the processing is so tight that it creates the subjective experience of things that arent in the signal 21:52:13 <\oren\> I see. interesting that its possible to say a sound without hearing it and hear a sound without saying it 21:52:24 Phantom_Hoover: lateral releases are pretty common, yeah 21:52:51 augur, i don't see how kneecaps come into this 21:53:02 what? XD 21:53:11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_release 21:53:19 Phantom_Hoover: its still a t or d, but the release isnt alveolar its lateral, so the standard notation is a superscript l 21:53:25 hellaugur! long time no see! 21:53:51 [bɑtˡl] or [bɑdˡl] 21:53:58 boily: hi hello do i know you? 21:54:32 Phantom_Hoover: lol 21:54:33 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_release_(phonetics) :P 21:54:53 i'd think it'd be [bɔtˡl] but vowels scare me 21:55:16 it could be but i would bet against it 21:55:23 but who knows, theres lots of english dialects :) 21:55:46 some dialects say "buses" homophonously with bosses using ɔ so who knows! 21:57:21 -!- nortti has changed nick to perkele. 21:57:29 -!- perkele has changed nick to nortti. 21:57:46 augur, well now i'm curious: https://clyp.it/jcjw5sni 21:58:13 augur: you always are there in the list. I think I saw you talk on this channel, but it goes so far back that it may be many years ago. 21:58:13 <\oren\> it's all ɑ to me 21:59:46 Phantom_Hoover: sounds like it could indeed be ɔ! 22:00:08 <\oren\> https://clyp.it/ 22:00:10 see, what do you elitist linguists know 22:00:19 its somewhere between ɑ and ɔ and ɒ 22:00:22 its in that region 22:00:27 <\oren\> shit I'm not a linguist 22:00:29 im guessing tho that you're british 22:00:34 scottish 22:00:48 Phantom_Hoover: im guessing that you voted #Yes 22:00:49 :) 22:00:57 also yes 22:00:59 :) 22:01:15 boily: well, im here now :) hello! 22:01:28 i pronounce oʊ as o as well, that threw me for ages 22:01:37 'that's not a diphthong...' 22:01:42 -!- bb010g has joined. 22:03:04 canadian english and dakotan-alaska english do that too 22:03:20 also Phantom_Hoover you dont sound glaswegian 22:03:38 well no, on account of being from edinburgh 22:03:39 so my bet would be edinburgh, just on population? 22:03:41 HAH 22:03:54 damn im good :) 22:04:12 <\oren\> augur: dayung! 22:04:44 but i also tried doing RP for a few years then decided i didn't like it so it sounds weird to people from edinburgh 22:04:44 <\oren\> how the hell, I can't even 22:04:56 \oren\: :) 22:05:06 how is im a linguist and also i watch a LOT of british TV 22:05:15 <\oren\> I see 22:05:24 `? augur 22:05:25 augur took no cakes. 22:05:31 especially the panel quiz comedy shows, so i get lots of exposure to different dialects 22:05:45 i cant pin down many of the british dialects, but i can get some major ones 22:05:52 `le/rn augur/augur took no cakes, but he's a linguist. 22:05:54 Learned «augur» 22:06:10 is there anyone from edinburgh on the panel show circuit 22:06:16 i don't remember there being any 22:06:28 ...but right, you worked that part out by elimination 22:06:40 i dont know. edinburgh isnt nearly as lulzy as glasgow so probably not 22:06:54 yeah, it was a probabilistic deduction 22:06:59 sherlockian even! 22:07:54 man google gives _nothing_ for comedians from edinburgh 22:08:54 it's a bit worrying 22:08:57 "Edinburgh 2015: the best new comedians heading to the Fringe" includes Stewart Francis who's fucking canadian lmfao 22:09:21 i guess that sums up Edinburgh: their best new comedians are from canada lolol 22:09:28 well yeah, the fringe is one of the biggest comedy festivals in the world 22:10:22 searching for comedians from glasgow, on the other hand, has plenty of results. lol 22:10:27 oh edinburgh 22:10:41 thats what you get for pronouncing it edinbruh 22:10:47 <\oren\> wut 22:11:05 <\oren\> it isn't edinberghuh 22:11:11 no 22:11:12 edinbruh 22:11:18 <\oren\> fuckk 22:11:43 or maybe edinbuhruh 22:11:48 but definitely no g 22:11:59 <\oren\> so the e, the g, and the h are all dilent 22:12:05 <\oren\> s/dil/sil 22:12:36 well edinbruh is the short version 22:12:38 the e isnt silent! 22:12:44 if you're enunciating it's edinburuh 22:12:56 Phantom_Hoover: its the only one people say on a regular basis tho :P 22:13:38 probably. but basically the only actual curveball is that the gh is pronounced 'uh' 22:13:57 <\oren\> https://clyp.it/gs14rz5x 22:15:00 <\oren\> this is what happen when I only ever see a word written 22:15:24 edinboire 22:15:52 edinboire :D 22:16:04 bruh, like douches saying bro but with uh instead 22:16:22 edinburgahee 22:16:50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxM7ENmEh1U 22:17:14 e-d-i-n-b-ore-u-haytch :) 22:18:49 ahhh irish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI1UaHt1zRU 22:19:22 <\oren\> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 22:19:27 i can manage the consonants 22:19:36 but the vowels are there solely to fuck with your head 22:20:07 <\oren\> the whole british isles are trolling me 22:20:14 there was a LL post from ages ago about irish spelling :) 22:20:32 \oren\, oh man you'll love this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOd3lwluQIw 22:20:49 (and this is mostly english names, which are fairly tame) 22:21:18 is featherstonehough in there somewhere? 22:22:06 yes 22:23:08 i mean they're not crazy like siobhan, they're just heavily elided 22:26:58 <\oren\> oh, it's fanSo 22:30:31 <\oren\> `unicode ɛ̃ 22:30:33 U+0020 SPACE \ UTF-8: 20 UTF-16BE: 0020 Decimal: \ \ Category: Zs (Separator, Space) \ Bidi: WS (Whitespace) \ \ U+025B LATIN SMALL LETTER OPEN E \ UTF-8: c9 9b UTF-16BE: 025b Decimal: ɛ \ ɛ (Ɛ) \ Uppercase: U+0190 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0303 COMBINING TILDE \ UTF-8: cc 83 UTF-16BE: 22:31:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:31:35 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:32:54 fenshaw 22:33:40 <\oren\> also I hope the ow in glasgow is the same as in cow 22:34:33 <\oren\> fuuuuuuuu 22:34:47 <\oren\> then why the fuck is there a w 22:34:58 <\oren\> it's glasgo 22:35:57 \oren\: wait till you learn that some scottish people pronounce "cow" as coo :) 22:36:28 and that the vernacular spelling of glasgow is 'glesgae' 22:37:11 vernacular, or scots? 22:37:14 <\oren\> fucking british people ruining the english language for everyone 22:37:38 augur, well, what's the difference 22:37:58 \oren\: abandon English, go French :D 22:38:22 scots is a different language sister to english, whereas vernacular is just everyday scottish english 22:39:22 that's such a bullshit distinction 22:39:48 <\oren\> je ne parl fransais pa untilthey unfuck their spelling 22:40:07 there's certainly a gradient, of course, but scots is a real distinct language 22:40:16 recognition of its status as a language is actually kind of important 22:40:42 my understanding of the history is that scots developed in parallel and along a continuum with english 22:40:57 \oren\: maim, mangle and mutilate. that's the first step to writing proper French and speaking it. 22:41:10 Phantom_Hoover: yeah, there's no clear line, you must understand 22:41:24 Phantom_Hoover: its a dialect continuum. the same is true of romance languages 22:41:37 and the recognition of status is massively political, you need only look at ulster scots to see that 22:41:52 we talk about French and Spanish and Italian and so on, but its a continuum, there's no line between the them 22:41:53 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:41:54 <\oren\> luckily the japanese unfucked their spelling in the 1950's 22:41:56 same for Dutch and German 22:42:17 yeah 22:42:24 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:42:27 languages are like species 22:42:41 you get all sorts of fun things in species 22:42:43 which is why i think it's silly to draw a line between 'everyday scottish english' and 'scots' 22:42:49 ring species are quite interesting 22:43:02 well when i say everyday scottish english i mean english, but with a scottish accent 22:43:12 not the scottish with "ken" and stuff 22:44:16 yeah but this started over the term 'vernacular', which i always understood to refer to the latter 22:44:53 it might, in this context, i dont know. i mean, vernacular isnt a name, tho its sometimes incorporated into names 22:45:35 (incidentally if you want to just hear glaswegians saying shit, i recommend burnistoun) 22:45:41 <\oren\> boily: see they used to spell 「きょう」 as 「けふ」 22:46:22 Phantom_Hoover: burnistoun? 22:47:05 \oren\: indeed. more compact, none of those pesky small kana. 22:47:10 for all my glaswegian needs, i just watch kevin bridges and frankie boyle :) 22:48:42 ah but that's glaswegians on stage 22:48:53 burnistoun is glaswegians portraying their natural habitat 22:49:28 i saw an episode of one of those trash shows with a guy bringing people out to sit in chairs and hes well known as a dick 22:49:44 and they had some scottish people on, some glaswegians speaking very thick glaswegian english 22:49:47 omg it was nuts :D 22:50:51 jeremy kyle, i think is that guy? 22:51:03 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:53:24 <\oren\> I'm guessing english spelling reform won't catch on until the dialects start to become unintelligible 22:53:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le_uNGdpa4c 23:00:48 augur, yeah, burnistoun is like... halfway to that, throughout 23:01:54 bridges and boyle are pitching to the entire uk, burnistoun was some regional bbc scotland thing so they didn't give a fuck who could understand it 23:03:09 when they play in glasgow tho they hit the accent really hard 23:03:15 Tell the queen to tell the prime minister to cancel the EU. 23:03:26 its fun to compare when boyle is on Mock vs when he's playing a room in glasgow 23:03:36 zzo38, that's unlikely to work 23:03:38 especially like during that small little indyref show he did 23:04:29 i love their comedy omg 23:04:36 boyle and bridges are some of the best comedians ever 23:04:40 <\oren\> cancel the EU? like a show 23:04:49 bridges' horse story was a masterpiece 23:04:56 Phantom_Hoover: omg i know lmfao 23:05:19 that was a truly amazing moment 23:06:33 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:06:47 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkpyd2lr4dI 23:07:00 in case anyone is wondering WTF Phantom_Hoover and i are talking about with horses :) 23:07:45 though you need to understand the format: the story might be a lie, and he wins if he gets the other team to call it wrong 23:10:04 man i havent watched wilty in a while 23:10:10 i should watch the new series 23:10:52 thank god for youtube, otherwise i'd never get to see all these great shows 23:12:49 what great shows? 23:13:05 |I mean, which ones have you already watched? 23:14:04 b_jonas: Nevermind The Buzzcocks, Mock the Week, Would I Lie to You, and 8 out of 10 Cats 23:16:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:26:50 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 23:37:06 <\oren\> hijarcane! 23:45:55 -!- lleu has joined. 23:46:43 \oren\: nice porthello. mind if I steal it? 23:48:49 <\oren\> sure go ahed 23:52:25 also Phantom_Hoover, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cENbkHS3mnY