00:00:03 Wiser words have never been spoken 00:01:27 [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44507&oldid=44506 * Timwi * (+0) 00:01:29 *Parry 00:03:19 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:08:23 -!- variable has joined. 00:13:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:14:46 [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44508&oldid=44507 * Timwi * (+29) /* Examples / Ekzemploj */ 00:22:49 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:25:53 [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44509&oldid=44508 * Timwi * (+162) some categories // kelkaj kategorioj 00:26:16 [wiki] [[Works in progress]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44510&oldid=40574 * Timwi * (+65) [[Espro]] 00:26:35 [wiki] [[Works in progress]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44511&oldid=44510 * Timwi * (-65) Oh, sorry, didn’t notice the note about solo projects. 00:30:31 -!- lemurian has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:31:00 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 00:31:55 What weird formats could we encode languages in? 00:32:28 TXT, MIDI, and PNG are the only ones I've seen so far 00:35:42 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:40:01 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:40:19 -!- _denis_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:42:11 -!- _denis_ has joined. 00:51:56 [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44512&oldid=44509 * Timwi * (+19) 00:52:15 [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44513&oldid=44512 * Timwi * (+27) 01:12:08 [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44514&oldid=44513 * Timwi * (+1) /* Types / Tipoj */ Oops! / Upse! 01:14:53 [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44515&oldid=44514 * Timwi * (-1) 01:16:17 -!- _denis_ has quit (Quit: Sto andando via). 01:18:24 I would like to see a language designed with the goal of being the exact opposite of TC 01:18:39 Like, an antiuring machine 01:19:05 how would you define the opposite of TC, though? 01:19:15 hppavilion[1]: I have made a dozen evolution and ecology simulations as a hobby, do you want to collaborate? 01:19:58 doesthiswork: On a later project, perhaps, but this one is for a school project. 01:20:25 ais523: I don't know. Perhaps it has the power to decrease the computational class of /other/ things? 01:21:10 doesthiswork: Do you have a GitHub? 01:22:13 not anymore, my signing certificate is out of date and browsers obsolete 01:22:26 Oh :/ 01:22:28 Wait, what? 01:22:29 I should probably get it working again 01:22:40 I have no clue what any of that means xD 01:23:19 -!- bb010g has joined. 01:25:58 What weird formats could we encode languages in? ais523: I don't know. Perhaps it has the power to decrease the computational class of /other/ things? 01:26:12 I saw those, went to the toilet (for unrelated reasons), and had an esolang idea by the time I was back at the computer 01:26:20 time to make an article 01:26:26 [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44516&oldid=44515 * Timwi * (+395) /* Types / Tipoj */ 01:26:48 -!- XorSwap has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:27:00 Heh 01:27:44 "PLEASE READ!!! 01:27:44 Facebook will begin stealing your undergarments at midnight tonight if you don't copy & paste this message in the next hour, forward it to everyone in your mailing list, print a hard copy for your grandmother & call your third grade teacher. This is real. I got the message first hand from Elvis who was having lunch with Bigfoot, while riding the Loch Ness monster. It was even on the inside back cover of every tabloid in the grocery store 01:27:44 checkout line. Not only will Facebook start charging you tomorrow, they are also going to bill your credit card for the past 3 years of services. Luckily, each person who copies & pastes this status will receive a FREE unicorn in the mail tomorrow. However, if you don't repost this status, Facebook code has been set up to automatically set your computer on fire & harm an innocent bunny in the forest! It's all true, it was on the news! It's 01:27:46 official! Facebook users will believe anything their friends copy & paste into their status (Don't forget the hearts!! All good copy and pastes gotta have hearts if not maybe no unicorn!!)" 01:28:55 [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44517&oldid=44516 * Timwi * (+242) 01:29:33 hppavilion[1]: what's your Esolang username? 01:31:50 [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44518&oldid=44517 * Timwi * (+284) /* Statements / Ordonoj */ 01:35:15 [wiki] [[User:Timwi]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44519&oldid=35304 * Timwi * (+69) 01:35:28 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 01:36:16 [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44520&oldid=44154 * Timwi * (+0) 01:38:58 [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44521&oldid=44520 * Timwi * (+0) /* Environment */ 01:44:48 [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44522&oldid=44521 * Timwi * (-25) No longer output-only since the accumulator now starts with the value of STDIN 01:55:33 [wiki] [[90]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44523 * Ais523 * (+3635) new language 01:55:54 [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44524&oldid=44003 * Ais523 * (+8) +[[90]] 01:56:21 [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44525&oldid=44399 * Ais523 * (+9) /* Non-alphabetic */ +[[90]] 01:56:25 there we go 01:56:35 any opinions on http://esolangs.org/wiki/90 ? 01:57:01 this is possibly my weirdest language ever, given that it violates my normal assumptions about what a programming language /is/ 02:03:31 also one of the least likely to be implemented, I guess, even though it's actually quite easy to implement 02:03:43 and one highest up in the "if I'm going to test this, I'll use a VM" stakes 02:10:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:10:32 -!- adu has joined. 02:20:22 ais523: does a 90 program operate on itself? 02:20:36 coppro: no, although two 90 programs operate on each other 02:21:02 if it did operate on itself, the details of the compiler would have a large impact on the way the program behaved 02:21:08 and thus would probably need to be specified 02:21:24 (and one possibility would be to intentionally avoid generating patterns where possible) 02:21:37 (so that it would be equivalent to the current case) 02:38:04 Unless you have lots of 1- or 2-byte patterns, it should be possible to avoid all patterns in the source 02:38:51 Actually no, there are things like syscall arguments, which can't be obfuscated 02:40:29 I'm a bit disappointed that this language wasn't invented by kmc 02:41:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:41:54 Jafet: why kmc in particular? 02:46:45 ais523: That language is amazing 02:46:54 thanks 02:47:02 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 02:49:44 Well, this is a language that can turn a system into a theme park of nopslides 02:50:08 ANUUUUUU 02:51:39 Here's an idea for a language: 02:51:54 One that revolves entirely around doing things with pi AND is TC 03:00:21 Someone should design languages named after /other/ circles of Hell 03:11:53 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:28:08 <\oren\> dis and malbolge aren't circles of hell though 03:28:43 <\oren\> dis is a city in hell and malbolge is a series of pits 03:29:21 -!- Frooxius has joined. 03:32:58 -!- qwertyo has joined. 03:41:36 -!- adu has joined. 03:52:22 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 03:52:23 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:58:53 -!- Froox has joined. 04:02:12 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:40:16 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 04:49:38 -!- Froox has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 05:27:13 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:30:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:37:58 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:46:09 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:25:59 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:51:49 -!- JesseH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:54:35 [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44526&oldid=44113 * Jabutosama * (+129) 06:59:46 [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44527&oldid=44526 * Jabutosama * (+73) 07:23:48 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:37:36 -!- qwertyo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:37:46 -!- qwertyo has joined. 07:44:49 You know, the holy war about the one true version control system is worse in some ways than the holy wars about editors or linux-based desktop environments. 07:45:57 the editor wars have mostly died down 07:46:05 and the DE wars have gone into reverse, since a few years ago 07:46:19 The problem is that a lot of free software history of the last decade is stored in version control repositories. Most of the time, you just have to take snapshots or releases out of these, or submit unified diffs to maintainers. But when you have to figure out the history of a really messed up bug, you need to be able to read the original version control repo, 07:46:20 because people have gone from claiming a particular DE is the best, to trying to find any DE that doesn't suck 07:46:40 ais523: :-( 07:46:43 and so you eventually may need to understand how seven or more major version control software works. 07:46:45 too accurate 07:47:49 And it's not really installing the version control software that's difficult, but understanding how they work and how to use them, because each of them have completely different ideas about what version history is about and what data is stored. 07:48:40 ais523: yes, those are mostly wars of the past, though now I mostly have that problem with editors. When I have time (i.e. never), I should write my own editor and my own irc client (the two could share a little of their code). 07:49:15 huh, there are still lots of editors I like 07:49:29 although my main editor is Emacs, which isn't exactly easy to learn 07:50:56 -!- qwertyo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:51:56 -!- qwertyo has joined. 07:52:16 "like", sure. but none of them is perfect, and there are changes that are impossible to add to an editor later. 07:52:59 in particular, I use joe-editor often, and there are patches for it that make it better than the vanilla (eg. fix the longstanding bug that it often can't use the last column of the terminal), but there's one thing that's really hardwired and can't be changed without rewriting most of it: 07:53:16 namely that it insists on displaying one line of the text file in one line of the screen only. 07:53:34 Most editors can break a line of the text file to multiple screen lines, which is often useful. 07:54:27 When you only want to fix minor things, such as the behavior of particular commands, or the keyboard layout, sure, you can do those in many editors. 07:54:52 Part of the problem is also that I'm not sure what exactly I want from an editor, and I have to figure that out too. 07:55:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:56:44 In particular, I can't decide if I want an modeless editor, a moded editor (with a separate insert and normal mode like vim), or a hybrid. 07:57:22 hmm, I just got a spam email offering to publish my thesis as a book, but I could tell it was spam from the fact that it had clearly been mail-merged and not written very well 07:57:43 (then I decided to websearch the name of the company, and it confirmed my suspicions) 07:57:47 So when I write the editor, I should probably try to make the best moded layout I can, and try to use it for a while, then decide if that's what I want. 07:57:58 ais523: oh, academic spam? 07:58:04 I "like" the fact that they tried to buy the rights to the thesis without even reading it 07:58:16 (from shachaf's experience recently, I know that they haven't read it) 07:58:35 (unless shachaf works for them, which I seriously doubt given the email contents) 07:59:32 my plan is to make a fortune selling illicit copies of ais523's thesis to the unsuspecting public *MWAHAHAHA* 07:59:53 here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VDM_Publishing#Criticism 08:00:33 Oh, I may have seen some of their books. 08:00:46 And the worst part of the version control war is the developers that don't make releases and insist that "the easiest way" to get their software or to get old versions is to use their favourite version control software and check out a snapshot (or tagged version) from their archive. 08:00:54 Or at least some people selling Wikipedia books on Amazon. 08:00:54 shachaf: if that was your plan, you'd probably have asked me for permission as shachaf, rather than pretending to be a spammer 08:01:21 They seem to think that the easiest way to get software is for you to speak all seven or more version control software. 08:01:23 -!- qwertyo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:01:25 [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44528&oldid=44487 * Rdebath * (+468) Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? --> TC demonstrated 08:01:36 ais523: which part of "illicit" was unclear 08:01:39 Is it even possible for someone to know six or more of them? I think the knowledge may be mutually exclusive. 08:02:17 b_jonas: I think it's not that hard to use whatever VCS to check out the software, especially if they have instructions 08:02:21 shachaf: OK, put it a different way round: if you were going to illicitly publish copies of my thesis you probably wouldn't have asked for permission 08:02:28 in particular, you don't really need to know it to do that 08:03:08 b_jonas: let's see, I know git and darcs quite well, have used svn and rcs without real issues (rcs sucks but there's not much to learn), know the basics of hg, and sporadically work on the design of scapegoat 08:03:20 olsner: yes, luckily if you just want to check it out, then it's generally not too hard. at least that's what you think until you realize that some versions of one of those seven version control system automatically executes on-checkout hooks on your client system when you checkout a version. 08:03:36 -!- qwertyo has joined. 08:03:36 ais523: wait, rcs still exists? 08:03:51 ais523: without asking for permission, and not getting it, how can i guarantee that the copies are illicit? 08:04:17 posing as a spammer may be the best way to not get permission 08:04:17 b_jonas: yes; basically because it's an executable that can be freely copied, nobody's suceeded in eradicating all copies from existence yet 08:04:52 b_jonas: a VCS that executes checkout hooks stored in a remote repository on your local system contains a security bug 08:04:57 But by posing as a spammer, ais523 is almost certainly not going to reply, so you will not get denied permission 08:04:59 and would likely be excluded from repos on that basis 08:05:28 ais523: yeah, I know, that's the problem, once one of these version controls are used, they'll exist forever. that's the whole problem. 08:06:34 ais523: yes, most people think so. but some people apparently think that the only thing you'd ever want to checkout with a vcs is software that you'd immediately compile and run with the same permissions on the same machine so it's not really a security bug, or something like that. it's crazy. 08:07:06 b_jonas: hopefully distro package maintainers aren't those people 08:07:55 I think they fixed that in later versions of that vcs or something. I hope. 08:08:13 I'm not even sure which vcs it was. I should try to find it out. 08:09:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:11:20 [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44529&oldid=44528 * Rdebath * (+364) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ 08:11:52 I think it was darcs that executed such commands on a darcs get 08:12:37 --prompt-posthook prompt before running posthook [DEFAULT] 08:12:45 hmm, I wonder if the --prompt-posthook can be overriden by the repo itself? 08:12:56 if not, it's not actually a bug (although it is a bit dubious UI-wise) 08:13:19 there's also --no-posthook, but the question is, is that the default with newer versions of darcs? 08:13:58 --prompt-posthook is the default in my currently installed version (that's what my paste was about) 08:15:08 how does it prompt? (as you know, I really prefer prefix switches over unexpected prompts ui-wise) 08:15:22 I hope it doesn't just, like, say "press enter to run posthook" or something 08:16:05 or even print "posthook? " to mimic a password prompt, but with the terminal echo on. 08:16:37 btw, password prompts should really tell more than just "password: " 08:16:45 it's probably a yn prompt 08:16:46 most do, but some software is still stupid 08:16:56 also darcs prompts a lot, so you're already in yn prompt mode at that point 08:17:02 the docs don't imply that hooks can be copied between repos 08:17:19 let me test this 08:18:00 I can't even find much info about this darcs-get thing. maybe it never really existed, just some people who preferred another vcs has accidentally made the info up when he didn't understand darcs. 08:18:09 (some mercurial people probably) 08:20:16 b_jonas: so I tested: a) there doesn't seem to be any prompt about the posthook by default (contrary to the docs), but b) cloning/pulling from a repo doesn't copy hooks at all 08:20:29 so there's no security issue there 08:20:50 ok, it's probably some mercurial guys that made that problem up then 08:20:51 whew 08:21:37 there is a warning in the docs that you should never create a hook that runs files in the repo itself 08:21:46 which is a generally applicable rule, not darcs-specific 08:21:46 -!- qwertyo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:21:54 ais523: sure, that makes sense 08:21:55 and that's actually a good point, I should probably fix that in NH4 08:22:05 if I am doing that 08:22:08 actually I don't think I am 08:22:10 I'm just running git 08:22:52 and in an access-controlled central repo, be VERY careful if you want to store the files defining permissions or authentication inside the repo 08:22:53 ah yes, the script in the repo gets /copied/ to the hook dir, and then isn't referenced thereafter 08:22:54 so I'm fine 08:23:05 b_jonas: people do that? 08:23:14 ais523: rarely, but some do 08:24:49 I think it might be the same people that put the file containing the administrator password of a web-based something system (possibly also reused as THE password for everything in house) to a file that's remotely accessible under over http with a predictable name; 08:25:14 or the ones who put database server hostnames and passwords into the source files they upload to github. 08:25:54 In theory it's possible to do safely, if you use the same access control files to make sure those files can't be accessed through the vcs server, but it's a bad idae. 08:26:44 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:27:53 b_jonas: it's still dangerous in that it gives anyone with the rights to write to the repo the rights to do anything with the repo 08:28:41 ais523: no, this is for repos that are per-path access controlled 08:29:07 so you give access to people to write only some paths and read only some paths 08:29:23 it's rarely useful, but some people want some things 08:33:07 svn has that thing for the servers, but I don't think I've heard of anyone putting the ACLs inside. Still, I don't doubt it isn't done. 08:34:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:34:49 There's a long are-you-sure section about the path-based access control in the SVN book 08:34:51 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 08:37:07 "don't doubt it isn't done" hehehe 08:37:55 There were too many negatives for me to survive through writing that. 08:40:00 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:48:21 incidentally, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_version_control_software is a huge table giving a lot of info 09:00:35 -!- heddwch has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:01:11 -!- Effilry has joined. 09:01:21 -!- heddwch has joined. 09:04:19 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 09:05:57 -!- Effilry has changed nick to FireFly. 09:43:03 @metar ENVA 09:43:05 ENVA 290920Z 07004KT 020V130 CAVOK 14/08 Q1029 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 16009KT 09:50:16 @tell shachaf But "free Z-module" is shorter than "signed multiset". <-- i think the former is a set of the latter hth 09:50:16 Consider it noted. 09:59:18 argh, program randomly crashes sometimes 10:00:27 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 10:02:14 better than randomly crashing always hth 10:19:48 possibly 10:26:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:35:07 -!- boily has joined. 10:54:33 stupid question. is there any compiler (C or other language) where as an optimization you can give hints (in eg. function attributes) that two functions are linked so that if you want to compute the result of both on the same input arguments then it's faster to call a third function that computes the result of both? eg. you'd declare a function that computes both sin and cos, or sinh and cosh. 10:55:36 for the more difficult version, the same but for objects that point to heap-allocated data that changes its values, such as bigints or bignums, where you'd use it for bigint quo-rem, div-mod, sin-cos, sinh-cosh 10:56:31 hmm, maybe I should ask this on Haskell 10:56:33 um 10:56:35 on #haskell 11:06:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:09:24 [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44530&oldid=44529 * Int-e * (+420) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ what a coincidence 11:12:41 b_jonas: I'm tempted to say that using quotRem constitutes such a hint... but it's very unsubtle. 11:13:00 int-e: well sure, you can call the combined function explicitly 11:14:15 and *fixint* quotient and remainder (and possibly also for machine float sin-cos and sinh-cosh) often want to be compiler intrinsics again where the compiler performs both this optimization and often other specific optimizations. 11:14:38 but I wonder if there's a compiler that can automatically do this transformation for user-defined functions 11:15:04 -!- sc00fy has joined. 11:16:45 In particular, you can certainly call mpfr_sin_cos or mpfr_sinh_cosh explicitly on libmpfr bignums 11:24:37 -!- boily has quit (Quit: AUTOSOMAL CHICKEN). 11:25:35 -!- bender| has joined. 11:26:01 -!- bender| has changed nick to bender. 11:27:24 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:29:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:09:23 study[i]ng 12:09:26 h[i]tler 12:09:29 open your eyes 12:10:35 fungot: hi there 12:10:36 int-e: lli' fnord nkith ni fnord jonkun. two semicolons work much better. 12:10:53 well, that could have gone better 12:29:27 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:29:50 -!- qwertyo has joined. 12:30:52 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:30:53 [wiki] [[GolfScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44531&oldid=43913 * 160.85.232.142 * (+30) /* External resources */ 12:32:08 [wiki] [[Category:Golfing language]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44532 * 160.85.232.142 * (+110) Created page with "Golfing languages are languages specifically designed for [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_golf| Codegolf]." 12:36:47 [wiki] [[Category:Golfing language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44533&oldid=44532 * Ais523 * (-18) fix broken link syntax; also, IP, you probably shouldn't be creating new categories without discussion 12:37:39 -!- qwertyo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:39:08 [wiki] [[FlogScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44534&oldid=43161 * 160.85.232.142 * (+29) /* External resources */ +cat: golfing language 12:39:30 [wiki] [[FlogScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44535&oldid=44534 * 160.85.232.142 * (+1) /* External resources */ ! missing closing bracket. 12:41:04 [wiki] [[CJam]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44536&oldid=43813 * 160.85.232.142 * (+30) + cat:golfing language 12:41:43 [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44537&oldid=44133 * 160.85.232.142 * (+30) /* Links */ + cat:golfing language 12:51:02 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:51:11 -!- mroman_ has joined. 12:51:30 ais523: pardon. I'm guilty of that @creating category 12:51:59 I've actually even added a link from Wikipedia to that category. 12:52:00 mroman_: so the story goes, that back in the days when Graue was Dictator Of The Wiki, a well-meaning new user decided to sort the esolangs by year 12:52:11 and created a bunch of new categories 12:52:16 Graue got annoyed at this and banned the user 12:52:39 To discourage people from adding their own languages as "well-known" to the wikipedia code golf article 12:52:42 and the "don't create new categories without permission" rule was added in an attempt to inform people about what happened 12:52:56 mroman_: I actually saw the link at Wikipedia 12:53:01 we have more than one golfing language, though 12:53:07 and I'm not sure we currently categorize by language purpose 12:53:12 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 12:54:29 ais523: It wouldn't make sense for most probably. 12:54:54 well, I think esolangs can be classified into a few purposes 12:55:05 Well, I'm not saying they can't. 12:55:10 Obviously I'm already doing exactly that :D 12:55:37 [wiki] [[Pyth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44538&oldid=42402 * 160.85.232.142 * (+31) /* External resources */ + cat:golfing language 12:56:03 btw: Does the esowiki have a cache pre-hooked to the webserver? 12:56:29 some esolangs are designed to be art, or ask philosophical questions about what a language is (there's sort-of an overlap there) 12:56:37 some esolangs are designed to be a language with specific properties 12:57:01 some are designed to be easy to implement (often but not always because the creator isn't that good at implementing languages, e.g. Deadfish) 12:57:21 some are designed in an attempt to find new computational models 12:57:25 and some are designed to look weird 12:57:27 any other groups? 12:58:01 I just don't think that promoting your esolang on wikipedia unless it has really picked up a lot of relevance and/or existed for several years is what wikipedia would really want. 12:58:10 So the place to promote them is the esowiki in my opinion. 12:58:46 Does "mimick brainfuck" count? :D 12:59:02 oh that already exists anyway 12:59:24 My languages are ALWAYS defined to be easily parseable with parsec 13:00:03 mroman_: actually I think part of the original motivation for creating Esolang was to help keep Wikipedia tidy (or to put it another way: to save all the languages that people were posting to Wikipedia even though it violated Wikipedia policy) 13:00:27 I was heavily involved in that from the Wikipedia side 13:00:50 which was a good choice. Otherwise you'd clobber wikipedia with thousands of esolangs and most of them barely have any relevance. 13:01:10 here's links to the history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ais523/esolangafd 13:01:14 wait... wrong verb 13:01:16 clutter? 13:01:51 Well, I guess beating up wikipedia is fine in that context too. 13:03:23 Interesting @link 13:03:27 Didn't know that happened. 13:08:26 -!- zadock has joined. 13:09:14 -!- zadock has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:09:51 also tournaments by language on wp is wrong anyway 13:10:00 jagc doesn't feature all those languages in the list 13:10:05 that's only the list for anagol 13:10:17 and I'm not even sure if you'd want to list all the languages available on anagol there 13:11:43 jagc features perl, python, erlang, ruby, haskell bash and php 13:12:46 shorten on spoj features a lot of languages but not as much esolangs as anagol does 13:21:53 mroman_: how about http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/ ? 13:26:12 If you want you can add it to the wp article. Stackexchange is mentioned under "external links" 13:27:08 I personally don't like codegolf.stackexchange.com since it has no means of validation/byte count whatever 13:27:32 It tends to have more complex problems though. 13:27:37 as on other site with automatic validation 13:28:07 *sites 13:28:18 -!- XorSwap has joined. 13:29:01 there are two external links, one to stackoverflow with tag and one to codegolf.stackexchange 13:29:10 I guess codegolf.stackexchange is newer 13:29:55 mroman_: yes, that's the problem, no automatic validation. it does have simple golf problems though. 13:30:03 both simple ones and very complicated ones. 13:31:25 That's why I don't like it. Problems are often broad. 13:31:43 Do they want a program? Or just a function. Is input passed as arguments, read from stdin or is in a variable 13:31:46 whatever 13:32:28 I get that people don't like anagol that much because it looks like a site from the 19** something :D 13:32:43 mroman_: yes, the specs are sometimes too broad 13:32:59 and there's no social media involvement with anagol and that stuff 13:33:08 you can't comment on other people's solution 13:33:21 mroman_: there's an irc channel but yeahs 13:33:21 I guess that's why most who'd consider golfing don't like anagol too much 13:33:37 maybe there should be an officially recommended mailing list for it? 13:33:55 I sadly don't have the resources available to make a more friendly page 13:34:02 otherwise I'd already done that. 13:34:03 I don't care about friendly page 13:34:18 me neither 13:34:40 but if the site recommended an official off-site forum, such as a mailing list, that might help 13:34:40 there's the IRC channel @mailling list 13:35:36 lol 13:35:41 my hosters mailling list service is broken 13:35:47 and they aren't going to fix that 13:35:50 what the f*ck 13:36:14 -!- nycs has joined. 13:36:34 that surely can't be legal 13:36:44 if they advertise it, they have to actually provide it I'd say 13:36:48 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v. 13:40:27 -!- ais523 has quit. 13:42:57 -!- TieSoul has joined. 13:48:26 -!- TieSoul has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:50:10 -!- TieSoul has joined. 13:50:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:54:47 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:54:53 is there an article about that golf prelude for ruby1.8 on the esowiki yet? 13:55:27 [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44539&oldid=44275 * B jonas * (+23) 13:56:03 -!- ais523 has quit. 13:57:12 I don't know. 14:27:06 -!- ineiros has joined. 14:30:57 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:32:16 -!- Melvar` has joined. 14:33:56 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:33:56 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:38:45 -!- Melvar`` has joined. 14:40:30 -!- Melvar` has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:42:21 http://codepad.org/jXREgoR1 <- my brain's idea or a new board game 14:42:24 *for 14:44:30 -!- Melvar has joined. 14:46:47 I'm tempted to write a program that spawns to programs battling each other 14:46:56 while feeding them the data through stdin/stdout 14:47:04 so you can battle programs and strategies 14:47:15 *two 14:47:28 -!- Melvar`` has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:48:32 -!- neo1-9-7-S has joined. 14:51:39 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:52:07 -!- Melvar has joined. 14:54:37 -!- Melvar` has joined. 14:57:16 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:03:58 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar. 15:13:43 -!- APic has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:17:01 -!- mauris has joined. 15:17:11 -!- APic has joined. 15:27:39 -!- trn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:36:26 -!- trn has joined. 16:00:09 -!- bender has quit (Quit: [Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God, ChanServ in vain]). 16:00:55 hi 16:05:50 -!- neo1-9-7-S has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:13:55 -!- JesseH has joined. 16:17:21 oh no. more macros with short names. just what this code needs. 16:18:19 -!- trn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:21:41 -!- trn has joined. 16:25:48 -!- sc00fy has joined. 16:27:28 oerjan: true 16:27:40 @massages 16:29:47 -!- atrapado has joined. 16:30:47 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:32:27 -!- mroman_ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 16:37:07 [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44540&oldid=44518 * Timwi * (+0) /* Examples / Ekzemploj */ 16:57:42 -!- MoALTz has joined. 17:08:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 17:42:30 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:42:39 -!- mihow has joined. 17:55:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Not really here). 18:03:19 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 18:07:07 -!- sc00fy has joined. 18:25:17 -!- bb010g has joined. 18:26:07 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:30:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:33:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:33:12 Hi 18:33:35 @msg oerjan What's the Funge98 vulnerability? Or can you not tell me? 18:33:35 Not enough privileges 18:33:42 @tell oerjan What's the Funge98 vulnerability? Or can you not tell me? 18:33:42 Consider it noted. 18:34:57 -!- XorSwap has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:36:31 hppavilion[1], hm? 18:36:35 what is that about? 18:37:07 hppavilion[1], as a Funge-98 implementer I'm curious 18:37:24 Unless he is talking about the thing I found in my own implementation the other day 18:39:45 Vorpal: I think it was about that. 18:39:55 Ah 18:39:59 Vorpal: I don't think oerjan said anything else than just setting the topic. 18:40:17 Vorpal: It's the topic xD 18:40:22 Ah 18:40:32 I don't see that much, since I never leave 18:40:39 With the bouncer that is 18:41:02 fizzie, yeah the only thing I found since then is that nested k can get you stack overflow (unsurprisingly) 18:41:32 It won't even be possible to rewrite it into tail recursion in the general case I believe 18:41:43 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:41:44 Nope 18:42:41 fizzie, but that is unavoidable 18:44:52 fizzie, anyway, how goes jitfunge? 18:52:55 No news there. 18:53:16 I've been quite busy lately, what with the job and finishing up the thesis, to be fair. 18:53:37 Which reminds me, time to start getting home, it's almost 8pm here. -> 18:53:57 whoa whoa whoa 18:54:00 drizzie 18:54:00 fizzie, it appears all random variable behaviour involves HRTI, TIME or y 18:56:04 -!- nortti has changed nick to rhyfel. 18:56:16 -!- rhyfel has changed nick to nortti. 19:03:27 -!- idris-bot has joined. 19:06:45 Bah. The network of my mobile phone operator is otherwise reasonably okay, but there's this one corner of Victoria Station where I just can't get any sort of signal. 19:07:05 It's not even all of the station, just these few platforms. 19:12:54 I'd like to see a list-like data structure where the length can be any hypercomplex number 19:12:58 Or at least gaussian integers 19:14:14 hppavilion[1], how would it work 19:14:16 Or perhaps a past-tense programming language 19:14:24 If there are any nurses or doctors on this station, please make your way to platform 13, where your assistance is needed." 19:14:33 Vorpal: That is left as an excersise for the reader 19:14:34 xD 19:14:41 I thought that was something they only did on planes. 19:14:43 I have no clue, really. How would imaginary items work in a list? 19:15:39 Won't that just be a linked plane? 19:15:47 fizzie: Maybe 19:16:16 Perhaps a programming language like python, but where all data has an actual spatial relation to each other (sort of like a BFian tape, but with actual variables) 19:17:40 [wiki] [[Object-Oriented Brainfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44541 * Hppavilion1 * (+157) Reserved Page 19:18:02 hppavilion[1], well, that is called memory? Given, say int a and int b, then &a - &b is the distance measurement between them in C 19:18:12 Oh right xDF 19:18:14 Some casting required if we are dealing with disparate types 19:18:18 s/F// 19:18:27 This if of course one-dimensional 19:18:35 But in python, memory location is irrelevant 19:18:46 Yes, but I was not talking about python 19:18:54 Anyway you can get it using id() 19:19:00 Vorpal: Also very undefined by standard if we're referring to separate objects. 19:19:21 A function which always annoy me, since I think it should be identity (for use with higher order functions) 19:19:35 fizzie, well yes 19:19:48 I know you weren't 19:28:12 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:28:28 "Flappy Bird Combinator" 19:48:42 Are negative Church Numerals possible? 19:49:00 no 19:49:12 Oh :/ 19:49:34 Even with some convoluted λ-calcular operations on normal Chruch Numerals? 19:49:40 no 19:49:46 Like, the document I just read defined the predecessor function 19:49:54 What would happen if I called P(0) 19:50:11 1 f x = f x 19:50:36 OK... 19:50:37 Um... 19:52:24 (-1 + 1) f x = -1 f (1 f x) = -1 f (f x) = 0 f x = x 19:53:00 thus -1 f is the inverse of f, but lambda expressions do not have inverses in general 19:53:24 -!- XorSwap has joined. 19:56:16 Oh :/ 19:56:32 Wiki seems to think it's possible with Church Pairs or something 19:57:04 well you can come up with a different encoding, yeah 19:57:27 Something about a pair with the first being the positive and the second being the negative, then swapping the values 19:57:53 but i wouldn't call it a church numeral because church numerals are, to me, repeated function application 19:58:53 Ah 19:59:56 Well I think it'd make the most sense to represent a number as some sort of pair if definining complex numbers... 20:00:02 I mean, duh 20:00:14 honestly? you're best off abstracting 20:00:23 How so? 20:00:36 I don't know enough about λ-calculus to understand what that means xD 20:00:53 (Assuming it's not the traditional meaning of "abstraction") 20:01:00 it is the traditional meaning 20:01:01 (That is, a special meaning) 20:01:27 you have naturals, pairs and equality, you can just build the rest of your types from there 20:01:28 Ah 20:01:52 Perhaps I could define some sort of "~" function that takes a number in whatever encoding I use and returns its inverse 20:01:54 don't really need to waste time coming up with clever, elegant encodings 20:02:21 And i that takes an argument and returns its complex equivalent 20:02:29 Of course no cleverness can be done xD 20:02:51 Sgeo: Figure out @'s λ encoding xD 20:04:00 I still barely understand the λ-calculus 20:04:12 I understand that it has to do with moving around variables. I think. That's about it. 20:04:18 I need to read the expressions better 20:04:20 https://github.com/rwg/aes-horror-shows/tree/master/msp430-microcorruption 20:04:30 -!- gamemanj has joined. 20:06:20 I /think/ I get how it works, but it's hard to wrap my head around. λxy.yxXY = YX, correct? 20:06:33 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:07:09 Phantom_Hoover: You seem to know enough about it to tell me if I'm right. Am I? 20:07:57 yes 20:08:16 i never wasted that much time on learning the variable substitution semantics though 20:08:29 they're functions, they behave the way you expect functions to 20:08:31 OK 20:09:02 I decided to remove special operations from my λ-calculator, as I feel it isn't very λ-calculy 20:09:22 So you can't do 2+2. You have to do +22 20:09:25 And *22 20:09:38 And E(+22)(*22) 20:10:37 -!- [1]blurelIse has joined. 20:12:18 Which evaluates to T 20:12:33 I love how 0 is lambdaly equivalent to F 20:12:35 I think 20:12:37 -!- blurelIse has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:12:37 -!- [1]blurelIse has changed nick to blurelIse. 20:18:02 [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44542&oldid=44167 * 50.206.146.226 * (+118) added Portal 20:18:25 hppavilion[1], 0 is \x y.y 20:18:51 it doesn't really have a name apart from that 20:18:57 1 is id, though 20:19:22 oh duh, you mean 0 is false 20:20:00 Phantom_Hoover: Exactly. λsz.z == λxy.y 20:20:33 Where λsz.z is how the document I read defines Church 0 and λxy.y is how it defines the Boolean False 20:20:34 isn't it K? 20:21:01 no, k is true is \x y.x 20:22:41 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:29:47 of course that's just a convention; the idea is that if-then-else can be the identity function. 20:30:30 -!- TieSoul has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:32:17 so if-then-else b t f = b t f, and the truth values are \t f.t (i.e., K) and \t f.f (i.e., K I) 20:34:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:36:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 20:42:06 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:50:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:07:10 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:08:16 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:15:58 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:16:38 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:21:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 21:22:16 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 21:25:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:26:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:27:42 @messages 21:28:02 hppavilion[1]: just joking about Vorpal's discovery 21:28:10 Oh xD 21:29:49 otoh it _does_ allow arbitrary native code execution, otoh you can probably do that from funge98 in more direct ways. 21:30:09 (well, probably allows) 21:33:14 What kind of logic is this from: \forall(x): (x->y)->(w->z) ? 21:33:24 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:37:14 -!- conehead has joined. 21:40:19 hppavilion[1]: something that allows quantifying over propositions... probably not very specific. 21:40:38 OK 21:40:52 I really just need to know about the (x->y)->(w->z) part 21:41:07 oh. -> is probably implication. 21:41:07 I published LIME 21:41:28 It is; the if-then of mathematics 21:41:31 what kind of implication would depend on the logic. 21:42:06 x->y means that if x is true, then y is true. x and y are booleans, or some similar type. 21:42:22 well in that case, classical logic 21:42:48 LIME is now up and has a BUNCH of planned calculators, including the GUM calculator (Grand Unified Math) 21:43:04 well i suppose it depends on what "x is true" means. 21:43:15 Also, everything is unicode :) 21:43:17 you could interpret that as intuitionistic too. 21:43:34 x <-> true = x is valid for intuitionistic predicates as well. 21:44:00 I'm currently doing the Arithmetic engine because it's needed for Set Theory 21:44:03 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:44:11 Should I support complex numbers in it? 21:44:16 why not 21:44:17 Perhaps in a different, derived one 21:44:21 OK 21:45:38 I'll write the arithmetical calculator, then prealgebraic calculator derived from it 21:46:29 hppavilion[1]: classical logic is what ordinary math tends to use. but intuitionistic logic is more popular for theorem provers because it fits better to the curry-howard "programs as proofs" correspondence. 21:46:37 OK 21:48:05 in intuitionistic logic, (x -> false) -> false is not equal to x 21:48:24 (generally) 21:48:34 really, HOL, Coq and Isabelle/HOL, Isabelle/FOL, Isabelle/ZF all use classical logic (the Isabelle/Pure framework is intuitionistic though, I believe) 21:48:46 in the other channel we were talking about "at least one" and "at most one" 21:49:02 int-e: hm ok 21:49:05 exists, +, surjective, total, relevant, at least one 21:49:18 unique, ?, injective, functional, affine, at most one 21:49:25 so many names for the same concepts 21:50:02 shachaf: that means there has to be something categorical unifying them, right? 21:50:19 I guess I should write the first HOL and HOL4. 21:52:50 oerjan: does it? 21:53:02 oerjan: of course if you want to run a proof as code, you better avoid classical tools like the axiom of choice and the law of excluded middle. but in Coq they're still available for proving properties of functions. 21:53:11 shachaf: i'm just trying to make a joke that's probably true hth 21:53:56 int-e: ok, so i guess it depends on where you are on the sliding scale between theorem prover and dependently typed PL 21:54:04 indeed. 21:55:04 i had somehow the impression that Coq was intuitionistic at the core but classical logic was just one added axiom if you needed it. 21:57:00 uh, I guess we're also discussing where the theorem prover ends and where user-written theories start 21:57:05 heh 21:57:43 * oerjan hasn't ever got around to do much more than staring blankly at Coq's startup screen. 21:58:41 I haven't used Coq seriously either, but I'm using Isabelle quite a bit. 21:59:22 afk 22:00:34 (Which is definitely at the theorem prover end of the spectrum. But it supports functional programming style function definitions and can export them as code. So you can produce verified software with it.) 22:02:26 [wiki] [[Commercial]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44543&oldid=43977 * LegionMammal978 * (+23) /* Hello, world! */ 22:03:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:04:34 -!- mauris has joined. 22:06:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:13:18 -!- trn has quit (Quit: quit). 22:13:33 -!- trn has joined. 22:20:17 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 22:27:06 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:27:48 [wiki] [[ABCD]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44544&oldid=35541 * LegionMammal978 * (+1294) 22:33:07 -!- _denis_ has joined. 22:33:21 <_denis_> hi! 22:38:31 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:38:49 -!- XorSwap has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:47:54 hi! 22:48:06 * oerjan thinks the number of italians is going up steeply 22:48:15 ciao 22:48:17 !list 22:48:29 sorry, shachaf, you're not allowed to be italian too 22:49:39 <_denis_> ciao 22:49:52 <_denis_> shachaf 22:50:23 oerjan: you don't sound sorry 22:50:33 oerjan: did you see my failed attempt at oerjaning earlier 22:50:34 <_denis_> oerjan I'm italian :') 22:50:41 sound transmits badly through irc hth 22:51:01 _denis_: that's what i noticed, and you're the second to arrive recently 22:51:18 who was the first one 22:51:23 was it also _denis_ 22:51:26 * oerjan points at izabera 22:51:37 copumpkin is also italian hth 22:51:43 SKEPTICAL 22:52:10 i remember that copumpkin has a funny last name that's not at all italian-sounding. i just don't remember what it is. 22:52:30 https://plus.google.com/+DanielPeebles/about 22:54:01 what order are those places in 22:54:10 *is 22:54:46 * oerjan thinks norwegian UI nationalization looks eery on that page 22:55:55 the most annoying thing about nationalized UIs is that you never know how to explain or search for things 22:57:05 turn it to english hth 22:57:34 copumpkin: how are the working conditions of a sponge, anyway? maybe i should consider a new career... 22:58:30 what is your current career? 22:58:44 disabled hth 22:59:16 but i have a feeling that i might be able to cope with being a sponge 22:59:50 sponge (animal) or sponge (material)? 22:59:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:00:19 hm tricky 23:00:40 i might not be that good with underwater conditions 23:18:04 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 23:20:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:24:55 oerjan: it's a lot of fun 23:25:14 I'm not really italian, but I grew up in italy and fit in pretty well 23:25:55 ooh 23:32:53 -!- vifino has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:32:53 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:33:00 -!- Gregor has joined. 23:33:05 -!- atrapado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:33:05 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:33:11 -!- fizzie has joined. 23:33:23 -!- vifino has joined. 23:34:12 -!- atrapado has joined. 23:36:47 <\oren\> helO! 23:38:41 <\oren\> wut is Du criticL funj nInE At vulnRabilitE? 23:40:37 -!- _denis_ has quit (Quit: Sto andando via). 23:43:12 -!- _denis_ has joined. 23:48:50 -!- boily has joined. 23:50:50 hellørjan. critical funge vuln? 23:52:34 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:55:10 boily: I think it's in Vorpal's Funge-98 interpreter 23:55:36 hppavellon[1]! the horror! 23:55:47 Vellorpal. do you corroborate? 23:57:25 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:58:13 iirc it involved stack stack operations giving access to out of bound memory