←2015-09-11 2015-09-12 2015-09-13→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:02:21 <fizzie> That's still like 20 square metres for everyone.
00:02:36 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh
00:02:42 <hppavilion[1]> People don't deserve /space/
00:02:46 <Taneb> Anyway my fear of big cities is less about their density and more about the idea that you can start walking not see countryside for ages
00:03:09 <Taneb> Even here in York I live like 10 minutes away from some form of farm
00:03:15 <hppavilion[1]> I need to test something. Stand by for a single message consisting entirely of 'w's
00:03:24 <hppavilion[1]> wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
00:03:25 <hppavilion[1]> wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
00:03:33 <hppavilion[1]> Interesting
00:03:39 <Taneb> wuh
00:03:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: FAIL
00:03:49 <hppavilion[1]> it was split into two messages
00:03:59 <oerjan> good
00:04:01 <hppavilion[1]> Huh?
00:04:02 <fizzie> Taneb: My temporary apartment was within sight of the Vauxhall City Farm.
00:04:07 <hppavilion[1]> What's a CTCP VERSION?
00:04:08 -!- bb010g has joined.
00:04:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it asks you what your irc client is
00:04:22 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
00:04:27 <Taneb> fizzie, that hardly counts
00:04:31 <hppavilion[1]> Could'a just asked
00:04:35 <fizzie> Taneb: They say it's countryside.
00:04:38 <fizzie> Taneb: "Vauxhall City Farm is a little piece of the countryside in central London."
00:04:52 <oerjan> i use irssi, which has a script you can enable for splitting. beats getting lines cut off.
00:04:58 <fizzie> Taneb: You get "all the sights, sounds and smells of rural life".
00:05:45 <fizzie> Are there real farms inside M25?
00:06:36 <fizzie> I think there are.
00:07:39 <fizzie> Taneb: York would be the fifth biggest city in Finland by population, if it were in Finland.
00:07:53 <fizzie> (And counting #1, #2 and #4 separately is a lie.)
00:08:05 <Taneb> fizzie, I can name maybe 2 cities in Finland
00:08:12 <Taneb> Which I think is more than most people I know
00:09:17 <pikhq> fizzie: The UK notion of "countryside" must be very different from the US notion. :)
00:09:48 <fizzie> I don't really know the UK notion, but I know there's multiple FI notions depending on who you ask.
00:10:31 <Taneb> It would take about 12 hours I think to cross London from the M25 to the M25 through the centre
00:10:39 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Could'a just asked <-- oh come on, i'm a nerd, i don't speak to people if i can ask a machine instead (cue for someone pasting counterexample)
00:10:40 <Taneb> For York and the A64, it'd take about 2
00:10:57 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, of course
00:11:08 <hppavilion[1]> I fungot that we're all nerds here xD
00:11:08 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: implement a solution to the problem from a much fnord style of channel for a while
00:12:03 <Taneb> Melbourne I find terrifying and I have lived there
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00:13:20 <fizzie> For the greater Helsinki area, it would take about 3 and a half hours for "Ring I", and 8 hours for "Ring III", although they're all just semicircles thanks to the coast.
00:13:27 <fizzie> (There is no Ring II.)
00:13:55 <fizzie> Well, there's a little bit of it, but it's mostly just a straight segment.
00:14:08 <oerjan> fizzie: i assume Helsinki and Espoo are two of the three, but which is the last one?
00:14:19 <fizzie> oerjan: Vantaa, which is #4.
00:15:06 <fizzie> (See: the former Helsinki-Vantaa airport, nowadays only Helsinki Airport, because it's just confusing to mention Vantaa.)
00:16:09 <fizzie> If the Wikipedia infobox title is truthful, it still has both cities in the Finnish and Swedish names, and they only dropped it from the English one.
00:16:30 <Taneb> The closest civilian airport to York is Leeds-Bradford
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00:18:00 <oerjan> Taneb: York would be the third largest city by population in norway, displacing trondheim
00:18:13 <fizzie> I like the local place names here, they sound much fancier than ours.
00:18:20 <Taneb> This doesn't exactly make it big!
00:18:24 <fizzie> "Bognor Regis", especially.
00:18:25 <Taneb> fizzie, where are you?
00:18:27 <Taneb> Ah
00:18:29 <fizzie> In London.
00:18:44 <fizzie> But I hear Bognor Regis as a final train destination at Victoria Station quite often.
00:19:04 <Taneb> You're like a single train ride from York!
00:19:57 <fizzie> We're going to Blackpool and Liverpool soonishly to meet with my wife's mother. That's up there about a Yorkish distance away, although with a slightly different direction.
00:20:24 <Taneb> That is also a single train ride from York
00:21:33 <oerjan> bognor regis sounds like a harry potter spell
00:22:18 <fizzie> There's also a place that I hear as Hexham in the announcements, but which probably isn't Hexham.
00:22:27 <Taneb> No, it wouldn't be
00:22:31 <Taneb> Wrexham, maybe?
00:22:46 <Taneb> (you can get to Hexham from Carlisle, Newcaste, Glasgow, and I think Middlesborough)
00:23:11 <FireFly> Middlesborough sounds very average
00:23:29 <fizzie> I'm trying to find a list of trains from Victoria, but the live departure boards aren't very useful at this time of day.
00:23:37 <Taneb> FireFly, it's called that because it was founded at the midpoint between two monastaries
00:23:47 <FireFly> Ah, makes sense
00:24:37 <fizzie> Oh, Wikipedia.
00:25:03 <Taneb> "Middlesbrough Priory was a priory in Middlesbrough"
00:25:17 <fizzie> There's Epsom, maybe I could be mishearing that in the noisy hall.
00:25:19 <Taneb> That is pretty much all the article on Middlesbrough priory says
00:25:27 <Taneb> Could be
00:25:45 <fizzie> There's also a train to Crystal Palace, which is another impressive-sounding name.
00:26:44 <fizzie> And to Dorking, which I'd assume people make bad jokes about.
00:27:09 <Taneb> Crystal Palace was a building built for a World's Fair, iirc
00:27:19 <Taneb> It burnt down at some point, something is telling me 1913
00:27:32 <fizzie> And to Reading, with its unexpected pronunciation, from Clapham Junction.
00:27:34 <Taneb> 1936, I had the wrong world war
00:27:41 <Jafet> I assume that Middlesex is home to people of average gender.
00:28:00 <Taneb> You would be correct
00:32:06 <Taneb> I think I will go to bed now
00:32:44 <Taneb> Goodnight
00:34:12 <fizzie> Sounds like a good idea.
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00:35:53 <Bjarne_> Hello
00:36:17 <oerjan> `relcome Bjarne_
00:36:22 <HackEgo> Bjarne_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:37:42 <Bjarne_> So, does anything actually happen in here?
00:38:01 <fizzie> Sporadically.
00:38:15 <Bjarne_> Ah
00:38:24 <fizzie> And I guess mostly off-topic things?
00:38:36 <Bjarne_> lol
00:38:56 <oerjan> you actually joined just as one of the main talkers went to bed
00:39:03 <fizzie> I'd still claim the odds of esolangery happening are above the natural background levels.
00:39:09 <Bjarne_> Oh, well that's kinda funny.
00:39:30 <Bjarne_> I enjoy esolangery, occasionally.
00:39:40 <Bjarne_> Haven't built a language in a while though.
00:41:06 <Bjarne_> If- I remember, the last language I built was something stack-based.
00:41:42 <fizzie> As for "does anything actually happen", we do have hard data on that: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/
00:42:35 <Bjarne_> Hmm, I see that the peak of activity was in early 2012.
00:43:06 <Bjarne_> Wow, so this place has been around since 2003?
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00:43:38 <fizzie> Late 2002, yes.
00:43:46 <Bjarne_> Nice
00:44:17 <fizzie> 01:44 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- Registered : Jan 03 01:30:22 2003 (12y 36w 2d ago)
00:44:56 <Bjarne_> Hmm. Do @ ping notifications work here?
00:45:10 <Bjarne_> I come from a world of Stack Exchange chat, so that's what I'm used to.
00:45:55 <fizzie> Normally people say "target: Foo." if they're talking to someone who's currently online, or use lambdabot's "@tell target Something." feature if they're not.
00:46:18 <Bjarne_> Ah, thanks.
00:46:24 <fizzie> (Most clients highlight the first form, and the second one will cause lambdabot to bother them later.)
00:46:56 <Bjarne_> Thanks. I'm very new to IRC
00:48:27 <oerjan> in fact lambdabot is a main reason for _not_ using @nick style here
00:48:40 <oerjan> @Bjarne_ <-- demonstration
00:48:40 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
00:48:52 <Jafet> @ ping
00:49:00 <oerjan> as defense, i think lambdabot is older than both SO and twitter
00:49:02 <Jafet> @ping
00:49:02 <lambdabot> pong
00:49:14 <Bjarne_> oerjan: Combined?
00:49:21 <oerjan> um...
00:49:28 <oren_> oh hey, there's a new person!
00:49:36 <oerjan> i'll have to look it up but lambdabot was 10 years just the other week
00:50:08 <Bjarne_> Nice
00:50:43 <fizzie> oerjan: Wikipedia's "Comparison of Internet Relay Chat bots" (a) doesn't contain fungot, but (b) lists "?" as lambdabot's "First public release - date".
00:50:43 <fungot> fizzie: so i guess
00:50:56 <fizzie> fungot: So you guess you should go and edit the page?
00:50:56 <fungot> fizzie: it runs through all of them? with two ports on the mainboard? :s
00:51:01 <oren_> I probably shouldn't get too used to using 3 laptops at once
00:51:10 <oerjan> oh not combined. and twitter is older than i thought, but still not quite as old as lambdabot.
00:51:19 <FireFly> fizzie: wouldn't fungot editing the page violate WP:NPOV?
00:51:20 <fungot> FireFly: i love when " faq" doesn't mean " cleaner", somehow, in what system, and in perl do something like
00:51:24 <FireFly> (and also be a terrible idea in general)
00:51:37 <fizzie> ^style wp
00:51:37 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
00:51:43 <fizzie> fungot: Talk Wikipedia to me.
00:51:43 <fungot> fizzie: forbidding polish language is more appropriate, or at least present a scientifically evident reason for this is the same as ' ' cavalrymen" were frequently fnord in ancient wars. the timeline had just grown too long, so it fnord past the network censors. in popular use, ", because it isn't neutral because of the passage of time.
00:52:01 <fizzie> FireFly: Yeah, seems that it isn't neutral.
00:52:07 <fizzie> But we could still forbid Polish.
00:52:13 <oerjan> fizzie: well i'm going by lambdabot's registration date
00:52:14 <Jafet> fungot wp seems heavy on fnord.
00:52:14 <fungot> Jafet: ok, i can assure you that all the language material should be somewhere. what do the rest of them are fnord/ fte, or larger than fnord fnord ( user fnord) 20:32, 29 december 2007 ( utc)
00:52:16 <pikhq> Seems legit.
00:52:29 <fizzie> Jafet: Bad data preprocessing, mostly.
00:52:55 <fizzie> Well, and maybe bad training parameters too, but things like signatures really should've been cleaned up.
00:53:14 <oren_> Sometimes it's better to look things up in an appropriate book on openlibrary
00:53:28 <oren_> than on wikipedia
00:54:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!SuperPrime]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44140&oldid=44138 * SuperJedi224 * (+102)
00:55:39 <Bjarne_> Huh?
00:55:42 <Bjarne_> What's that?
00:56:12 <Bjarne_> nvm
00:56:32 <oren_> hackego anounces whenver someone changes the wiki
00:56:56 <Bjarne_> Now that's really helpful.
00:57:01 <oerjan> fizzie: i think forbidding polish language might be historically insensitive hth
00:58:30 <Bjarne_> Bye bye
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00:59:26 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe they could get someone else's language as compensation.
01:02:02 <oerjan> ^def
01:02:02 <fungot> hai
01:02:08 <oerjan> now that's cute
01:02:30 <oerjan> fizzie: i think the last time, they got either german or russian
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01:02:43 <fizzie> Huh. (re ^def)
01:02:56 <oerjan> saw it in the logs
01:03:05 <fizzie> Oh, yeah, the builtins are triggered only by the command name and a space.
01:03:16 <oerjan> oh
01:03:19 <fizzie> Well, those of them that take an argument.
01:03:21 <oerjan> ^show def
01:03:21 <fungot> (hai)S
01:03:24 <oerjan> ic
01:03:41 <fizzie> s/take/can take/
01:04:37 <fizzie> You could do the same for ^str, ^bf, ^ul.
01:05:55 <fizzie> And some owner-only commands, like ^raw, ^code -- those would become user-defined commands that you can only execute without input, because otherwise they'd trigger the builtin, which would just ignore it.
01:09:34 <FireFly> ^def bf (^bf -- evaluates brainfuck)S
01:09:34 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
01:09:40 <FireFly> ^def bf bf (^bf -- evaluates brainfuck)S
01:09:40 <fungot> Defined.
01:09:43 <FireFly> ^bf
01:09:49 <FireFly> Hm.
01:09:53 <FireFly> oh wait
01:10:02 <FireFly> ^def bf ul (^bf -- evaluates brainfuck)S
01:10:02 <fungot> Defined.
01:10:05 <FireFly> ^bf
01:10:06 <fungot> ^bf -- evaluates brainfuck
01:10:09 <FireFly> Handy
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01:15:15 <fizzie> ^ul
01:15:17 <fizzie> ^def ul ul (^ul -- evaluates Underload)
01:15:17 <fungot> Defined.
01:15:19 <fizzie> ^ul
01:15:30 <fizzie> ^def ul ul (^ul -- evaluates Underload)S
01:15:30 <fungot> Defined.
01:15:33 <fizzie> ^ul
01:15:33 <fungot> ^ul -- evaluates Underload
01:16:25 <fizzie> I think that may have displaced the brainfuck ul interp, but you couldn't use it anyway, and maybe it was already lost.
01:16:47 <oerjan> <myname> don't interfer with other bots <-- it wasn't eir fault this time, athenabot is just stupid
01:16:58 <fizzie> And anyway even when you could use it the time limits hardly let you do anything with it.
01:17:00 <myname> how so?
01:17:17 <fizzie> ^save
01:17:17 <fungot> OK.
01:18:14 <oerjan> myname: it reacts to _any_ url, without any prefix.
01:18:28 <oerjan> i kicked it once before
01:18:32 <myname> that is indeed pretty stupid
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01:20:00 <oerjan> ^show
01:20:00 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
01:20:23 <shachaf> ^rot13 fungot
01:20:23 <fungot> shatbg
01:20:30 <shachaf> hm
01:20:33 <shachaf> mine's better hth
01:20:35 <oerjan> still not run out of room
01:20:49 <oren_> did I remember to add my bf interpreter to the wiki?
01:21:03 <oerjan> i don't remember whether you did
01:21:36 <pikhq> oerjan: Even unusual ones like <ircs://irc.freenode.net/#esoteric>?
01:21:38 <oren_> (the one that works by fucking with the stack in an entirely illegel way)
01:21:55 <shachaf> oerjan: so when does belkar show up to heroically and uncharacteristically sacrifice himself
01:21:56 <oerjan> pikhq: ok the "any" was more for position in the line
01:22:26 <oerjan> shachaf: erm excuse me i haven't read oots yet since i haven't got to that part in the logs my being backlogged keeps escalating
01:22:32 <shachaf> pikhq: that uri scheme irks me hth
01:23:04 <FireFly> I'm hoping possessed Durkon is going down soon
01:23:09 <pikhq> shachaf: Maybe, but it's quite valid. If not quite standard because there isn't a registered one for IRC-over-SSL, just for plain IRC.
01:23:37 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm
01:23:37 <shachaf> pikhq: it was just a pun ok
01:24:01 <pikhq> urn:pun-opinion:grumble%20grumble
01:24:30 <shachaf> you missed some fun puns in channels you aren't in hth
01:30:25 <pikhq> Also, grumble it's the weekend, how food.
01:31:44 <oerjan> hm was that summoned weasel a thing, it somehow rings a bell
01:32:07 <FireFly> He did have that bag o' tricks way back
01:32:07 <shachaf> bag of tricks hth
01:32:53 <shachaf> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0144.html
01:33:42 <shachaf> also e.g. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html
01:33:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44141&oldid=43113 * Orenwatson * (+247) Added mine to list.
01:38:25 <oerjan> that was it
01:42:58 <oerjan> kallisti: hi new person
01:44:27 <FireFly> I think they've been around a while, at least the nick looks familiar
01:45:05 <oerjan> i'm sorry, but they clearly said in the logs that they're new hth
01:45:42 <oerjan> and that means it has to be true, or you could have your cake and eat it too
01:45:43 <shachaf> i am new
01:45:49 <shachaf> awwh
01:46:45 <oerjan> hi other new person
01:48:36 <pikhq> Oh jeeze, the Indian place I found near here that I quite like has a lunch buffet.
01:48:41 <pikhq> This is dangerous knowledge.
01:48:54 <shachaf> Which place?
01:48:59 <pikhq> Great India Cuisine.
01:49:06 <pikhq> *Indian
01:49:21 <pikhq> The name's not much, but so far I've been quite pleased.
01:49:49 <shachaf> Are you kidding? The name's great!
01:50:00 <pikhq> :)
01:50:12 <pikhq> Okay, well, my impression is the name is accurate, so.
01:50:55 <shachaf> pikhq: Did you have any mules today?
01:50:57 -!- MDude has joined.
01:50:58 <pikhq> No.
01:51:14 <shachaf> I heard there was a thing.
01:51:25 <pikhq> Maybe there was, but I missed it.
01:51:51 <shachaf> I had a Finnish mule.
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02:21:58 <oren_> Interesting.
02:23:02 <oren_> Jeff Atwood aka CodingHorror got fed up with the people on theDailyWtf criticizing and filing bugs to his forum software, discourse.
02:23:44 <oren_> He proceeded to ban everyone from TheDailyWtf from posting on the Meta.d discourse forum
02:24:20 <oren_> so now TheDailyWtf is deciding what forum doftwre to migrate to
02:25:43 <oren_> I had no idea there were so many people who take insults to their code personally
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02:27:01 <oren_> https://what.thedailywtf.com/t/how-can-this-be-so-wrong/51117 <-- record of the drama
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04:11:55 <zzo38> The other player have filled up their character sheets now, one aasimar and one drow; the player of the drow character wrote "Classified" as the alignment
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04:45:34 <zzo38> I don't like any of those URI schemes for IRC though
04:46:36 <zzo38> It should be <ircp://irc.freenode.net:6666/join/%23esoteric> or whatever host/port/channel/etc; the channel name is not a fragment identifier and you may want to point to stuff other than channels too
04:47:15 <pikhq> zzo38: irc://irc.freenode.net:6666/esoteric is valid, as is irc://irc.freenode.net:6666/zzo38,isnick
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04:50:14 <zzo38> The first one doesn't specify the channel prefix either, and there are other problems. Also some program seem to use it inconsistently; I have seen some places where the scheme is used that have the # and some that don't
04:51:24 <zzo38> (I don't like that syntax for nicknames either)
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04:58:21 <izabera> in freenode / can be part of a channel's name
04:58:42 <zzo38> Yes, you should percent-encode it then, in my opinion, if making up the URI.
04:58:52 <zzo38> (Percentage signs also need to be percent-encoded)
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04:59:32 <pikhq> I believe it's also valid to percent encode it.
04:59:47 <pikhq> Percent encoding is a part of the generic URI syntax, at least.
05:00:25 <pikhq> zzo38: The scheme specifies that if you don't specify a channel prefix you assume #.
05:00:37 <pikhq> Otherwise, I agree, the syntax does use URI pretty poorly.
05:01:03 <pikhq> irc://irc.freenode.net/channel/%23esoteric feels more... correct.
05:01:10 <zzo38> Yes I agree
05:02:14 <zzo38> It should be irc://[username[:password]@][host[:port]]/[path][?parameter][#part] like normal URI should be
05:02:21 <izabera> do you want/need the /channel part?
05:02:31 <zzo38> Yes you should
05:02:44 <pikhq> To distinguish between the server and an individual user on the server.
05:02:47 <zzo38> (I used /join/ instead of /channel/ but that's another way)
05:02:58 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, or help files or other stuff
05:03:18 <pikhq> irc://irc.freenode.net/nick/zzo38?msg=Oh%20hai or some such
05:03:45 <izabera> starting with %23 would be enough to distinguish a chan from a user
05:04:45 <zzo38> izabera: Yes, if it started with the encoded # or & or + or ! that means a channel and otherwise a nickname is one way, but it doesn't help in case you want to refer to help file and so on as well, I believe
05:05:29 <pikhq> Arguably in the protocol you could have a prefixless channel.
05:05:36 <pikhq> The prefixes are just a convention.
05:05:48 <pikhq> Though that'd collide with users.
05:06:09 <pikhq> (as one PRIVMSGs both channels and users)
05:07:42 <Sgeo> help file?
05:08:25 <zzo38> There are help files on the server too, for many commands as well as to list what mode flags it accepts
05:08:57 <zzo38> (For example HELP UMODE lists the possible modes you can set on yourself)
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06:21:00 <zzo38> What level(s) and/or other suggestion/complaints to make this spell? http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/spell/magic_ink
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06:23:10 <Walpurgisnacht> squaring for lambda is just ^ right or did it change
06:24:02 <zzo38> Can you please be more specific?
06:26:13 <Walpurgisnacht> ^2
06:26:16 <Walpurgisnacht> eh
06:26:27 <Walpurgisnacht> > 2^3/4+1
06:26:30 <lambdabot> 3.0
06:26:36 <Walpurgisnacht> thanks m8
06:28:39 <Walpurgisnacht> > {34,67,80}/7^(3)+8
06:28:40 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘{’
06:29:15 <Walpurgisnacht> I doubted it could to the calculator brackets
06:29:17 <Walpurgisnacht> uwu
06:29:44 <zzo38> It is Haskell; for lists you need square brackets, although I don't think you can divide a list by a number anyways.
06:30:12 <Walpurgisnacht> Yeah I think so
06:30:41 <zzo38> > fmap (\x -> x/7^(3)+8) [34,67,80]
06:30:43 <lambdabot> [8.099125364431487,8.19533527696793,8.2332361516035]
06:30:52 <Walpurgisnacht> Nah
06:31:17 <zzo38> > [34,67,80]/7^(3)+8
06:31:19 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show t0)
06:31:19 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M544953426060485496931545’
06:31:19 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
06:31:59 <Walpurgisnacht> > [34,67,80]/7^3+8
06:32:00 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show t0)
06:32:00 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M207693433857803641131569’
06:32:00 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
06:32:11 <Walpurgisnacht> Ill try that with something later
06:32:26 <zzo38> That's wrong; you need to use fmap or other stuff like that.
06:32:39 <Walpurgisnacht> Yeah
06:32:54 <zzo38> What answer are you expecting?
06:33:29 <Walpurgisnacht> [ 67 , 0 ] 8
06:33:30 <j-bot> Walpurgisnacht: 67 8
06:35:34 <Walpurgisnacht> Thanks j-bot
06:36:10 <zzo38> Is that what you want it to do?
06:37:09 <Walpurgisnacht> Yeah
06:37:35 <zzo38> Do you know Haskell programming?
06:38:01 <Walpurgisnacht> I wasn't doing haskell
06:38:25 <zzo38> Lambdabot is doing Haskell though
06:39:13 * Walpurgisnacht half heartedly shakes fist at lambdabot
06:39:18 <Walpurgisnacht> Yeah I see now
06:39:40 <Walpurgisnacht> I was just seperating some stacks and I needed the precise number close to [ 67 , 0 ] 8 but I didn't know if I was getting it right
06:40:02 <Walpurgisnacht> God damnit I closed my window
06:44:01 <Walpurgisnacht> Mmm goodnight
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07:02:21 <Sgeo> I found what I believe to be a judge's mistake in a 1999 FRC round
07:02:55 <izabera> frc?
07:03:20 <Sgeo> Later:
07:03:20 <Sgeo> I just found a horrible problem with this rule. If Frconium is Tier 16, and you mix it with an Tier 1 element in extreme proporions, you should get (by 126:11) the @ version of an element on Tier 15. But according to this rule there is no Tier 15! Unless or until someone points out a flaw in this reasoning, I will have to change my Judgement on this to INVALID.
07:04:09 <Sgeo> Flaw in that reasoning: Tier 1 elements, when mixed in extreme proportion, do NOT result in @ versions of elements, as noted in the validity notes for 11
07:04:12 <Sgeo> http://www.sir-toby.com/nomic-archives/frc/round126.txt
07:04:50 <izabera> oh nomic ok
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08:47:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fission]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44142&oldid=43098 * 73.21.237.245 * (+63) Added categories
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09:22:55 <ais523> hmm, I'm reading something explaining the usage of an option/maybe type
09:23:25 <ais523> and gives as an example a function that divides two numbers, except it returns the "no value" option if the divisor is 0
09:23:40 <ais523> and immediately thought "but what if someone does INT_MIN / -1?"
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09:51:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44143&oldid=44135 * 109.240.117.169 * (+0) Undo revision 44135 by [[Special:Contributions/108.53.252.27|108.53.252.27]] ([[User talk:108.53.252.27|talk]])
10:09:57 <Taneb> > 0.8 * 73
10:09:59 <lambdabot> 58.400000000000006
10:18:31 <Taneb> @botsnack
10:18:31 <lambdabot> :)
10:18:48 <olsner> @quote
10:18:48 <lambdabot> ackbar says: it's a trap!
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10:29:44 <ais523> that value for 0.8*73 looks suspect to me
10:30:12 <ais523> I wonder how easy it is to get binary floating point calculations to produce exact results in decimal
10:30:24 <b_jonas> oren_: ah, I see you've added more characters
10:30:24 <ais523> I guess you track error, and then if there's a short decimal representation within your error radius, you use that
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12:37:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44144&oldid=42643 * SuperJedi224 * (+251)
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13:58:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44145&oldid=44136 * SuperJedi224 * (-19)
13:59:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44146&oldid=43369 * SuperJedi224 * (+19)
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14:26:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44147&oldid=44036 * Timwi * (+447) Parsons Green
14:27:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44148&oldid=44147 * Timwi * (+27) formatting
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14:31:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44149&oldid=44148 * Timwi * (+113) move the single-operand instructions down so they’re not intermingled with the binary operators
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14:35:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44150&oldid=44149 * Timwi * (+142) /* Execution */ Caveat
14:36:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44151&oldid=44150 * Timwi * (+0) sp. Also, I changed the semantics of the start of the program in a previous edit and sneakily marked it as minor! Sorry!
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14:42:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44152&oldid=44151 * Timwi * (+12) mildly important
14:44:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44153&oldid=44152 * Timwi * (+59) clarify what “return” means
14:46:42 * tswett appends "1!" to his password in order to make it fulfill the requirements.
14:47:25 <ashl> heh
14:48:12 <ashl> that reminds me of those Password Policies which required users to change their password every couple of weeks
14:48:51 <ashl> i just put a counter on the end of my password which i incremented every time
14:58:24 <oren_> hi
14:58:58 <oren_> Use a base 36 counter
14:59:43 <oren_> @tell b_jonas yes I added devanagari and some arabic and more cyrillic
14:59:43 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:00:20 <oren_> right now i;m working on armenian
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15:21:20 <zzo38> When defining stuff that uses division I have also considered INT_MIN / -1
15:22:10 <zzo38> For example, QUACKVM specifies undefined behaviour in that case (also division by zero is not undefined; it will be reported to the program).
15:24:34 <oren_> if we define negation as flipping the bits then adding one, the answer to -INT_MIN is INT_MIN.
15:25:30 <oren_> for 4-bit ints: ~1000 = 0111 0111+1 = 1000
15:26:43 <oren_> a well deisgned program should probably avoid numbers near the edges of the representable range though
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15:37:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44154&oldid=44153 * Timwi * (-8) /* Execution */
15:38:10 <oren_> i have sometimes considered using ones-complement instead
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15:50:50 <oerjan> > [minBound, -minBound] :: [Int]
15:50:52 <lambdabot> [-9223372036854775808,-9223372036854775808]
15:51:02 <oerjan> oren_: checks out
16:00:16 <olsner> > minBound / -1 :: Int
16:00:19 <lambdabot> Precedence parsing error
16:00:19 <lambdabot> cannot mix ‘/’ [infixl 7] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same infi...
16:00:32 <olsner> > minBound / (-1) :: Int
16:00:34 <lambdabot> No instance for (Fractional Int) arising from a use of ‘/’
16:00:34 <lambdabot> In the expression: minBound / (- 1) :: Int
16:00:58 <olsner> > div minBound (-1) :: Int
16:01:00 <lambdabot> *Exception: arithmetic overflow
16:02:51 <olsner> div probably checks for this case and errors out without dividing ... I wonder if you can use unboxed ints in lambdabot
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16:07:12 <oerjan> don't think so
16:07:20 <oerjan> or wait hm
16:08:08 <oerjan> > if True then error "test" else 1#
16:08:09 <lambdabot> Couldn't match kind ‘*’ with ‘#’
16:08:09 <lambdabot> When matching types
16:08:09 <lambdabot> a0 :: *
16:08:42 <oerjan> hm right that won't print
16:08:51 <ais523> # is a kind?
16:08:52 <oerjan> :t I#
16:08:53 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘I#’
16:08:53 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘In’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted)
16:09:01 <ais523> :t 1#
16:09:02 <lambdabot> GHC.Prim.Int#
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16:09:39 <oerjan> you can make unboxed literals, but it's hard to use them for anything because none of the functions are imported
16:10:12 <ais523> > let x 1# = 1 in x 1#
16:10:14 <lambdabot> 1
16:10:20 <ais523> looks like you can also pattern match them?
16:10:22 <ais523> > let x 1# = 1 in x 2#
16:10:24 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:5-12: Non-exhaustive patterns in function x
16:10:26 <ais523> yep
16:10:27 <oerjan> well right
16:10:38 <oerjan> ais523: # is the kind of unboxed values, yes
16:11:34 <oerjan> @src Int
16:11:34 <lambdabot> data Int = I# Int#
16:11:50 <FireFly> I#?
16:12:09 <oerjan> if I# were imported (from GHC.Exts or the like), it would be easier
16:12:12 <FireFly> Does that box any unboxed type or some such?
16:12:29 <oerjan> no, just Int, it's the data constructor for Ints
16:12:37 <oerjan> @src Integer
16:12:38 <lambdabot> data Integer = S# Int#
16:12:38 <lambdabot> | J# Int# ByteArray#
16:12:52 <myname> wtf
16:13:00 <oerjan> of course @src is unreliable but it has these examples
16:13:15 <oerjan> i think that Integer definition may be out of date.
16:13:47 <coppro> @hoogle Integer
16:13:49 <lambdabot> Prelude data Integer :: *
16:13:49 <lambdabot> Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.VertexSpec data IntegerHandling
16:13:49 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax IntegerL :: Integer -> Lit
16:14:00 <ais523> hmm, I take it a ByteArray# doesn't know its own length?
16:14:18 <oerjan> not sure
16:14:19 <ais523> and thus a Haskell Integer can't store a value that's more than INT#_MAX bytes long
16:14:50 <ais523> (on a 32-bit system, I believe it's theoretically possible to have enough memory to be able to store such a value in theory)
16:14:52 <oerjan> from GHCi:
16:14:54 <oerjan> data Integer = integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.S# !Int# | integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.Jp# {-# UNPACK #-}integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.BigNat
16:14:57 <oerjan> | integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.Jn# {-# UNPACK #-}integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.BigNat
16:15:05 <oerjan> they split it according to sign now
16:15:17 <oerjan> and it's in a hidden module thus the noise
16:15:47 <fizzie> $ echo '2:*:*:*:*:*:2/*:.01-/' > tmp.bef; cfunge tmp.bef
16:15:47 <fizzie> Floating point exception
16:15:50 <zzo38> And there is the "BigNat" type; what is their definition?
16:15:54 <fizzie> Fortunately, I don't think you can get fungot to do that.
16:15:54 <fungot> fizzie: i deleted the early childhood and marriage because latuff himself stated that neither of those counties allow any sort of evidence? what about the territories? fnord fnord george clark ( fnord english history: a fnord, which
16:16:41 <fizzie> Also, for some reason, "cfunge <(echo ...)" doesn't work -- it goes to an infinite 100% CPU-wasting loop somewhere.
16:17:21 <fizzie> (The extra :. was just for debugging.)
16:18:11 <FireFly> Maybe it's a feature to heat up the room during cold winter days
16:19:14 <ais523> how often is division actually used?
16:19:23 <ais523> even more so than subtraction, it's hard to implement in esolangs that don't have integers
16:19:33 <ais523> I guess I should add it to underlambda's standard library
16:19:51 <ais523> anyone know a good algo for dividing chuch numerals? bonus if it does something well-defined on functions that aren't church numerals
16:20:18 <oerjan> data BigNat = BN# ByteArray#
16:20:21 <oerjan> zzo38: ^
16:20:39 <zzo38> Ah, OK
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16:21:22 <oerjan> ais523: actually ByteArray# isn't a single contiguous memory array
16:21:37 <ais523> oerjan: I was assuming tha the Int# was the length
16:22:40 <oerjan> i think it may have been number of "limbs", now it's not there any more
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16:27:51 <oerjan> hm wait it may be contiguous
16:27:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Slim]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44155 * Scoppini * (+1774) Created page for Slim
16:28:21 <oerjan> "A ByteArray# is a just a region of raw memory in the garbage-collected heap, which is not scanned for pointers. It carries its own size (in bytes)."
16:28:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Scoppini]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44156&oldid=41613 * Scoppini * (+14)
16:31:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44157&oldid=43935 * Scoppini * (+199) Added Slim
16:34:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44158&oldid=43899 * Scoppini * (+128) Added Slim
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16:49:36 <Melvar> Guys, guys! Someone just found the craziest thing in Idris.
16:50:36 <Melvar> If you use Doubles in types, unification uses float equality, so NaN will not unify with NaN.
16:50:54 <coppro> This allows you to get a NaN = NaN and a (NaN = NaN) -> Void
16:51:00 <coppro> but you can't prove Void because they won't unify
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16:55:33 <Melvar> Exactly.
16:56:08 <ais523> beautiful
16:56:17 <ais523> there's probably some really deep maths behind that
16:57:55 <Melvar> More problematically, it will presumably unify positive and negative zero, which will cause inconsistency as soon as some way to distinguish negative zero is added, which I was planning to do.
16:58:32 <coppro> (we just confirmed that it will)
16:59:53 <oren_> 1/+0 is positive infinity, 1/-0 is negative infintiy?
17:00:12 <coppro> yes
17:00:16 <coppro> > 1 / 0
17:00:18 <lambdabot> Infinity
17:00:24 <coppro> > 1.0 / -0
17:00:26 <lambdabot> Precedence parsing error
17:00:26 <lambdabot> cannot mix ‘/’ [infixl 7] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same infi...
17:00:31 <coppro> > 1.0 / ( -0.0)
17:00:33 <lambdabot> -Infinity
17:00:50 <ais523> space is needed because it's otherwise a function that subtracts 0 from things, I take it?
17:02:23 <olsner> it is some weird special rule at least
17:02:45 <Melvar> ais523: No, prefix - is always prefix - in Haskell, IIRC.
17:02:58 <Melvar> The section meaning can’t be gotten that way.
17:03:02 <Melvar> @type subtract
17:03:04 <lambdabot> Num a => a -> a -> a
17:03:12 <Melvar> Which is why that function exists.
17:03:36 <olsner> > (- 1) 7
17:03:38 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Num a0)
17:03:38 <lambdabot> from the context (Num a, Num (a -> t))
17:03:38 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type for ‘e_117’: (Num a, Num (a -> t)) => t
17:03:49 <olsner> > (1 -) 7
17:03:50 <lambdabot> -6
17:04:01 <Melvar> So you can say (subtract x) because (-x) does the other thing.
17:04:09 <Melvar> > (subtract 1) 7
17:04:10 <lambdabot> 6
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17:05:33 <oren_> hijarcane!!
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17:13:40 <Melvar> > the ((False = True) -> Void) (\Refl impossible) $ cong {f = (> 0) . (1 /)} $ the (-0.0 = 0.0) Refl
17:13:41 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: parse error on input ‘=’
17:13:45 <Melvar> Erp.
17:13:48 <Melvar> ( the ((False = True) -> Void) (\Refl impossible) $ cong {f = (> 0) . (1 /)} $ the (-0.0 = 0.0) Refl
17:13:48 <idris-bot> case block in {val1} Void Refl Refl : Void
17:14:06 <Melvar> There we go.
17:15:26 <Melvar> Now, does anyone know how to do bit-pattern equality on Double in Haskell?
17:16:26 <ais523> ooh, we've proved Void in Haskell?
17:16:43 <ais523> approximately how often does that happen? every few months?
17:16:51 <ais523> ah wait no, that's idris
17:17:14 <b_jonas> oren_: can you add the symbols representing control characters: [\x{4200}-\x{241f}]?
17:17:26 <ais523> > let x (- 0.0) = 1 in x 0.0
17:17:28 <lambdabot> 1
17:17:38 <ais523> > 0.0/0.0
17:17:40 <lambdabot> NaN
17:17:53 <ais523> > let nan = 0.0/0.0 in let x nan = 1 in x nan
17:17:55 <lambdabot> 1
17:17:59 <ais523> hmm
17:18:13 <ais523> there is something of an inconsistency here
17:18:37 <b_jonas> oren_: these get some use. We use them (except for three) as substitutes on perlmonks to emit valid xml 1.0 (which doesn't allow most control characters) when a user-submitted text contains control characters.
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17:19:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: hi
17:19:59 <oren_> b_jonas: Ok, i'm done armenian so ill do those next
17:20:30 <b_jonas> oren_: mind you, we ampersand-escape them so you won't see them directly in the xml source
17:20:34 <zzo38> b_jonas: O, hello
17:20:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: I have a challenge. Make a Magic card that causes trouble on an airport.
17:21:06 <zzo38> It is not so clear to me.
17:21:43 <b_jonas> eg. Name: Greater Terror. Cost: {2}{skull}. Rules text: Destroy target nonblack creature and/or target plane-
17:22:10 <b_jonas> swalker. Art: A rogue stabbing someone from the back with a small knife on a market square.
17:22:58 <b_jonas> That doesn't work because it couldn't be hyphenated that way, mind yuo.
17:25:25 <zzo38> OK, now I can understand though
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17:25:34 <b_jonas> (English text is almost never hyphenated on Magic cards, and even if it could be, the line wouldn't end there: it's large size text because the text is short, so it would be “Destroy target nonblack creature\nand/or target planeswalker.” and I think planeswalker can't be hyphenated after the "e" anyway.)
17:25:57 <zzo38> Maybe if other text is added to force it to be hyphenated there
17:27:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: the motivating example is http://mathoverflow.net/a/53738/35417
17:27:30 <Melvar> < ais523> > let nan = 0.0/0.0 in let x nan = 1 in x nan – In case it was unclear, the second nan is a pattern variable and thus x = const 1
17:27:40 <ais523> Melvar: oh right
17:28:02 <ais523> I'm not sure this is easily fixable, either
17:28:54 <ais523> > let x (0.0/0.0) = 1 in x (0.0/0.0) -- I don't expect this to work; and Haskell comments are -- right?
17:28:55 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: Parse error in pattern: 0.0 / 0.0
17:29:35 <Melvar> ais523: As far as I remember, numeric patterns always turn into tests with (==).
17:29:57 <Melvar> So Double patterns will obey float equality.
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17:30:30 <Melvar> So if you could make a pattern for NaN, it would presumably never match.
17:30:57 <ais523> that would make sense, yes
17:31:03 <zzo38> b_jonas: Ah, OK I can see now
17:31:10 <Melvar> > let nan = 0.0/0.0 in let foo n | n == nan = 1 in foo nan
17:31:12 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:26-45: Non-exhaustive patterns in function foo
17:31:18 <Melvar> Something like that.
17:31:36 <coppro> this is pretty normal floating-point behaviour
17:31:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: and no, I don't think depending on the hyphenation of plane-swalker is a good idea in any case.
17:31:49 <b_jonas> It doesn't work for like five reasons.
17:32:00 <b_jonas> That part isn't fixable.
17:32:07 <coppro> it's fine in haskell, but in Idris, it introduces inconsistency and that's an issue
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17:34:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: And that hyphenation looks like wrong even if you can force it to hyphenate it there
17:34:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: and people _do_ read past the hyphenation
17:35:03 <zzo38> Yes I am sure you will
17:35:36 <b_jonas> My dictionary doesn't tell how planeswalker is hyphenated.
17:35:39 <zzo38> Maybe a card used in a planechase game? Then "plane" is an actual type
17:35:45 <b_jonas> Hehe!
17:35:49 <zzo38> (Although you can't destroy them as they aren't permanents)
17:36:10 <b_jonas> Maybe, though it's not very likely that more planechase cards are printed.
17:36:21 <b_jonas> Nor cards that specifically mention them.
17:36:36 <b_jonas> Maybe destroy or sacrifice a plains.
17:36:56 <b_jonas> Is there even a card with hyphenation in the English text? If so, from what year the latest?
17:37:16 <b_jonas> Probably some un-card has some.
17:37:43 <ais523> "destroy" doesn't work for things in the command zone, though
17:37:57 <ais523> it'd be "place in the graveyard" or "exile"
17:38:14 <b_jonas> Yeah, Longest Card Name Ever Elemenetal has a really long hyphenated word in the flavor text.
17:38:58 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure those work either, because the rules stop you from moving plane cards to other zones, but sure
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17:39:20 <ais523> probably because someone would find a way otherwise :-)
17:39:27 <b_jonas> Do airport guards know from Dune what a thopter is?
17:39:42 <b_jonas> If the illustration helps that is?
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17:40:19 <Melvar> What’s a tho?
17:40:20 <callforjudgement> the word exists, and presumably someone's tried to make one
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17:40:36 <b_jonas> ais523: Yes, I think for one of those set of rules that seem like backup rules just in case somehow the rules break at first, there actually is some way to activate that.
17:41:14 <b_jonas> ais523: Sure, and even if thopters don't work in real life, there's probably porn featuring them.
17:41:20 <b_jonas> But that doesn't mean people know the word.
17:41:32 <b_jonas> What are they called in Dune actually? Just thopter, or some prefixed form?
17:42:16 <b_jonas> I've read first Dune book in English, but only once, and I don't remember.
17:42:30 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
17:42:35 <b_jonas> (I've read the first six in Hungarian, but I can't say I'm a big fan.)
17:42:42 <callforjudgement> there's some card that puts cards into play if they have the same name as a creature
17:43:01 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: what? from any zone?
17:43:04 <callforjudgement> and there are sorceries with the same name as creature types, and cards that create tokens of arbitrary creature types
17:43:08 <callforjudgement> from some zone, I forget which
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17:43:18 <b_jonas> sorceries with the same name as creature types?
17:43:22 <ais523> probably with a cost too
17:43:24 <ais523> b_jonas: Splinter
17:43:53 <b_jonas> ais523: you can also just blink a manifested sorcery these days
17:44:19 <ais523> yep, but the long way round means it can't just be fixed in manifest rules
17:44:21 <b_jonas> it even makes sense because blink can work in a morph dekc
17:44:51 <b_jonas> but yes, there were one or two more exotic ways for some of these rules
17:44:56 <ais523> aha, Clarion Ultimatum is the card in question
17:45:01 <b_jonas> Splinter ... wow
17:45:13 <ais523> it lets you search out five permanents from your library with the same name as permanents you control
17:45:19 <ais523> err, different permanents, I think
17:45:38 <b_jonas> and there's even a Splintering Wind that creates Splinter tokens so you don't even have to artificially evolve the token maker
17:45:41 <ais523> and put them into play
17:45:53 <b_jonas> ais523: wow
17:45:57 <b_jonas> I see
17:45:59 <b_jonas> from your library
17:46:00 <ais523> funnily enough, the rulings for Clarion Ultimatum actually give a second example
17:46:09 <ais523> Illusion token and Illusion // Reality
17:46:18 <ais523> (when matching split card names, you can match either half)
17:46:31 <b_jonas> ais523: I think that Echoing Decay can very occasionally affect both a token and a card, without copy effects changing their name
17:46:54 <b_jonas> It doesn't quite work for Elvish Warrior because Elvish isn't Elf
17:47:13 <ais523> there are quite a few creatures whose name is just their creature type
17:47:15 <ais523> mostly goblins, I think
17:47:22 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, Homarid
17:47:43 <b_jonas> but is there one for which there's a simple token-maker, without some sort of artifical evolution or generic foundry?
17:47:57 <b_jonas> eg. there's multiple cards putting Elf Warrior tokens in play
17:48:09 <ais523> check lorwyn and morningtide
17:48:26 <ais523> those are the sets where a race+class token would be most likely relevant
17:48:32 <b_jonas> there's Goblin Assassin, but probably nothing creating Goblin Assassin tokens
17:48:56 <b_jonas> mind you, there's one card that puts Assassin tokens
17:49:13 <b_jonas> ais523: that, or try to search for "creature token" with regexen
17:49:17 <b_jonas> I'll try later
17:49:37 <ais523> b_jonas: Gatherer doesn't support regexen any more
17:49:43 <ais523> it got broken in the last website update
17:49:44 <b_jonas> sure, on a local copy
17:51:24 <b_jonas> nothing makes Nightmare tokens either
17:51:58 <b_jonas> putting "a 1/1 white Knight creature token" doesn't work either
17:52:32 <b_jonas> oh!
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17:52:34 <b_jonas> there's another instant
17:52:39 <b_jonas> ais523: Illusion is an instant
17:52:56 <ais523> b_jonas: OK, instants and sorceries are pretty much equivalent for this, though, aren't they?
17:52:58 <b_jonas> and there are creatures putting Illusion creature tokens
17:53:03 <b_jonas> Summoner's Bane
17:53:11 <b_jonas> ais523: yes
17:53:16 <b_jonas> it's just that that's another one
17:53:22 <b_jonas> and possibly less obscure than Splinter
17:53:36 <b_jonas> because I guessed it would exist
17:56:16 <oren_> 3331 characters!
17:56:34 <b_jonas> and yes, there's lots of creatures printed with creature type names, like Metharan Zombie and Giant Spider
17:56:37 <b_jonas> oh, I forgot
17:56:59 <b_jonas> ais523: there's a card from the TSP block that actually creates tokens named Llanowar Elves, isn't there?
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17:57:09 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, Llanowar Mentor
17:57:10 <b_jonas> Llanowar Mentor
17:57:11 <ais523> it's part of a cycle
17:57:16 <b_jonas> right
17:57:20 <tswett> Hmm.
17:57:23 <b_jonas> so those definitely work with Echoing Decay
17:57:26 <ais523> five cards each of which create tokens named after cards
17:57:29 <b_jonas> which is also a cycle by the way
17:57:51 <ais523> (one of the created cards was in lorwyn, which came later; future sight's most accurate predictions were about lorwyn for obvious reasons)
17:57:54 <b_jonas> yes, and all five are peddlers, aren't there?
17:58:02 <ais523> spellshapers
17:58:11 <b_jonas> that then
17:58:13 <ais523> most spellshapers mimic sorcery or instant spells
17:58:17 <ais523> those ones mimic creature spells
17:58:30 <tswett> Such-and-such. Instant. While Such-and-such is on the stack, all cards have Flash.
17:58:43 <b_jonas> right, Ballon Peddler has the type Human Spellshaper
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17:59:26 <b_jonas> and only three cards called Peddler are like that, and there's one other peddler
18:00:41 <b_jonas> and yes, TSP predicted Kithkins
18:00:58 <b_jonas> and planeswalkers
18:01:08 <b_jonas> and tribals
18:03:12 <ais523> it upset me so much when I found out planeswalkers were actually being added
18:03:34 <ais523> I mean, we have this weird rigger card that references something that doesn't exist, and has wording designed to make it look like it won't ever exist
18:03:34 <zzo38> The "Kithkin" subtype started in the Legends set
18:03:44 <b_jonas> oh, is that part of why you hate Lorwyn?
18:03:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, with one card. and TSP block has two or three.
18:03:54 <ais523> and then we have this lhurgoyf which references a nonexistent card type which Wizards have said they'll never print
18:04:01 <ais523> I liked them both
18:04:30 <ais523> (there is mild upside from this: happening to (incorrectly) think Tarmogoyf was a cute reference to something that would never happen was enough to get me to draft one before people realised they were good)
18:04:56 <b_jonas> wait, you like Tarmogoyf?
18:05:21 <ais523> Lorwyn rather ruined it flavourwise for me
18:05:30 <ais523> but by that point people had figured out it was one of the best cards ever printed
18:05:39 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I understand that, but planeswalkers in particular?
18:05:57 <b_jonas> or wait, Lorwyn ruined Tarmogoyf? what?
18:06:00 <ais523> b_jonas: just the reference to something that would never happen
18:06:22 <ais523> both the rigger that doubles contraction assembly, and the lhurgoyf that references a nonexistent card type
18:06:40 <b_jonas> I'll disappear in about an hour (plus or minus an hour) by the way, for half a day, when my preferred encode of MLP S5 E14 will be available and downloaded.
18:07:15 <b_jonas> ais523: the Steamflogger Boss references a non-existant _artifact_ type
18:07:22 <b_jonas> contraption
18:07:38 <b_jonas> but cards have created tokens of otherwise nonexistant creature types anyway
18:07:49 <ais523> b_jonas: it references a nonexistent special action, assembly
18:07:56 <ais523> in a way that's templated to make it almost impossible to implement
18:08:00 <b_jonas> oh right, rigger
18:08:10 <b_jonas> rigger is a nonexistant creature type
18:08:21 <b_jonas> I think Sand token is among the most ridiculous type
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18:08:26 <ais523> (at least, no official source says it's a special action, but that's the only game element that templates like that)
18:08:30 <ais523> b_jonas: moriok rigger
18:08:37 <ais523> also, contraption is officially an artifact subtype
18:08:41 <ais523> just one that appears on no cards
18:08:46 <b_jonas> ais523: exactly
18:08:59 <b_jonas> but it appears on Steamflogger, which is enough to bring it to existance
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18:09:10 <b_jonas> but I think the list of existing artifact types don't matter for anything
18:09:19 <b_jonas> because there are no cards like Artificial Evolution for them
18:09:32 <b_jonas> or anything that lets you choose or reference arbitrary artifact types in any way
18:09:46 <b_jonas> whereas creature types can matter (though there's so many that they won't matter in practice)
18:09:51 <b_jonas> and I think land types come up somewhere
18:09:58 <ais523> you only have a finite supply for your turing machines!
18:09:58 <zzo38> Make up something like that for artifact subtypes maybe
18:10:00 <b_jonas> but maybe only existant ones
18:10:06 <ais523> and I don't think land types generally can be chosen
18:10:18 <b_jonas> ais523: probably no, only something like "lands that share type" or something
18:10:19 <ais523> (although it's amusing that there are four lands with subtype Urza's, not three)
18:10:20 <b_jonas> I don't recall
18:10:54 <coppro> yeah, only basic land types
18:11:07 <coppro> there's no effect which lets you pick out a subtype other than a creature type
18:11:22 <b_jonas> coppro: there is
18:11:25 <b_jonas> coppro: Barbarian Guides
18:11:39 <coppro> huh, you're right
18:11:41 <coppro> didn't know about that one
18:11:43 <coppro> weird old card
18:11:50 <zzo38> I have made up the card that has an effect "target spell loses all supertypes and subtypes"
18:11:58 <b_jonas> mind you, if you pick a nonexistant type, you just get an ability that doesn't do anything useful
18:12:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: Illusionary Presence
18:12:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: Landfill
18:12:32 <coppro> b_jonas: that's not a legal choice
18:12:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: Shimmer
18:12:45 <coppro> landfill doesn't count
18:12:46 <ais523> zzo38: so you can aim it at a legendary creature, and then it's nonlegendary even after it reaches the battlefield
18:12:53 <b_jonas> none of them are really relevant
18:12:54 <coppro> b_jonas: you've made your point
18:13:09 <b_jonas> whoa, Traveler's Cloak
18:13:15 <coppro> if tron was a thing in legacy
18:13:16 <b_jonas> I'm just amused, I didn't know there's so many of these
18:13:22 <coppro> I would totally play Shimmer just to Shimmer Urza's
18:13:26 <ais523> I doubt Wizards would print that, because so many people wouldn't realise
18:13:32 <b_jonas> still, none of them makes land types matters
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18:13:39 <ais523> coppro: I think the only reason tron isn't a thing in legacy is that twelvepost is better
18:13:46 <coppro> yeah
18:13:50 <ais523> and works much the same way
18:14:00 <coppro> hmm
18:14:03 <coppro> you could do Shimmer naming locus
18:14:04 <ais523> hmm, if you put tron and twelvepost in the same deck
18:14:07 <ais523> that's 24 lands exactly
18:14:07 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, or at an Aura and it won't be attached to anything, or at a planeswalker and now you can play another same one, or a snow permanent is not snow, etc
18:14:19 <ais523> now you just need the nonland cards to all be castable from colorless
18:14:32 <ais523> expedition map costs {1}, right? that'd be a good start
18:15:01 <coppro> hangarback walker's good I hear
18:15:10 <b_jonas> hehe... tron legacy
18:15:34 <ais523> planeswalker karn
18:15:48 <ais523> some eldrazi (ulamog is normally the right choice in modern, so probably here too)
18:16:05 <coppro> emrakul too
18:16:22 <coppro> out of reach in tron, but doable in post
18:16:34 <coppro> and a hardcast emrakul is nearly unbeatable
18:16:43 <ais523> I've seen it done
18:16:58 <ais523> normally by combo decks which had been crafting their hand over the last few turns
18:17:10 <ais523> then did a "T:1 combo kill" just not on turn 1
18:18:53 <zzo38> I have made the puzzle once involving beating a hardcast Emrakul
18:19:16 <b_jonas> ais523: do you mean Pathrazer of Ulamog? or the big Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre?
18:19:31 <ais523> infinite gyre
18:19:37 <b_jonas> the big onse are tricky because they can't be reanimated from the graveyard
18:19:42 <coppro> yeah, you can combo out in response
18:19:50 <ais523> there's some discussion that ceaseless hunger might be good in that sort of deck too
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18:19:57 <ais523> but that one's so new you can't buy it yet
18:19:58 <b_jonas> so I've played against a casual reanimator that used Pathrazer of Ulamog among a few other big creatures
18:20:33 <b_jonas> in a way that it sometimes tries to search the deck to put to graveyard, and reanimate, so it had I think five different expensive creatures
18:20:45 <b_jonas> and it aimed to get one out in turn three or something
18:22:03 <coppro> ceaseless hunger seems strong
18:24:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's creature printed 7/11. I wonder if you could get a 9/11 one.
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18:25:52 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is possible I suppose.
18:27:59 <zzo38> I want to see how to make the Dungeons&Dragons spell it can cause nonlethal damage but can also convert lethal damage into nonlethal damage too
18:28:35 <ais523> zzo38: perhaps there should be a metamagic feat for casting spells nonlethally (and perhaps there's one already)
18:29:07 <zzo38> ais523: There is one.
18:29:26 <zzo38> I have seen it in one book saying it takes 1 slot level higher and in another book it says the same slot level.
18:29:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's not so easy because there are few creatures printed that big. you have to somehow make its size meaningful. and a vanilla creature might not be enough unless you can make its name, type, flavor text, art REALLY good.
18:30:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: heheheh
18:30:26 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes I can believe you
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18:34:40 <zzo38> Such as, deals some amount of nonlethal damage to target, and increases their current hit points by half of that amount, rounding up, up to their maximum hit points; does not count as healing for purpose of effects that care. But I am not sure what level, what amount of damage, etc
18:35:36 <zzo38> Some people (including myself) have suggested to make healing to be a subschool of necromancy rather than of conjuration; the DM of the game I am in also agrees. I can further suggest antihealing to be another subschool of necromancy (for spells that heal undead but damage living creatures)
18:36:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: does that matter? I thought schools mostly matter for wizards, who don't do healing, as opposed to bards or clerics.
18:37:53 <b_jonas> the M:tG rules say that "exchange life totals" effects (which permute life totals among players) count as healing for healing triggers
18:38:03 <b_jonas> so do "set life total" effects
18:38:10 <zzo38> Yes I know in M:tG they do
18:38:20 <b_jonas> but yes, that's different
18:39:04 <zzo38> But it can also matter for some other things including some rule variants that can be used
18:39:57 <zzo38> So not necromancy has two subschools healing and antihealing, and there is also plain necromancy.
18:42:15 <b_jonas> Hmm, besides the cleanup step, regenerate, and "end the turn" effects, are there effects that remove some or all of the damage marked from a creature while keeping them on the battlefield?
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18:43:17 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know if there are any official ones.
18:43:54 <tswett> I still think it's weird how land costs work.
18:44:16 <tswett> Some spells have a cost of zero. Lands do not have a cost of zero. Instead, they have an unpayable cost, but you don't have to pay it.
18:44:44 <oren_> YAY! I'm tenth ranked of all fontstruct fonts by number of characters
18:45:00 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, it's a bit strange.
18:45:06 <b_jonas> but it's probably too late to change.
18:45:22 <zzo38> tswett: I am fine with that, although I would have made the rules a bit different.
18:45:29 <b_jonas> as in, not worth to change now that everyone knows the rules and there are cards depending heavily on an empty cost being uplayable.
18:45:48 <zzo38> I would allow it to be cast as a spell if it does have a payable cost, but you can still play it as a land too
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18:49:00 <tswett> Well, you can just give errata to everything.
18:49:33 <tswett> A spell land would be interesting.
18:50:16 <tswett> An enchantment that says "While this card is on the battlefield, this card is a land."
18:50:41 <oren_> ՀՁՂՃՄՅՆՇՈՉՊՋՌՍՎՏ
18:51:04 <ais523> tswett: that's much the same as a mox though
18:51:06 <b_jonas> oren_: is that armenian or georgian script?
18:51:10 <ais523> or a mana rock
18:51:13 <oren_> armenian
18:51:20 <tswett> It wouldn't necessarily actually have to give you mana.
18:51:36 <oren_> I haven;t updated the eb page yet, but I will soon
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18:55:35 <tswett> Now, what things, exactly, can be in zones?
18:55:41 <tswett> Cards, tokens, and abilities?
19:03:05 <oren_> page now updated! http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
19:04:29 <b_jonas> tswett: also copies of spells
19:04:42 <tswett> Aha.
19:04:45 <tswett> And those aren't tokens, I assume.
19:04:46 <b_jonas> tswett: and formerly combat damage on the stack
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19:04:54 <ais523> and copies of abilities! although I'm not sure those are distinguishable from abilities
19:05:11 <ais523> because neither is represented by a card
19:05:46 <b_jonas> tswett: copies of spells are somewhat similar to tokens: they're objects with no underlying card, so their copyable values are set by whatever effect creates them.
19:05:56 <coppro> ais523: I don't think they are distinguishable
19:06:03 <b_jonas> tswett: copies of spells get created in two ways, from effects that copy a spell, and effects that let you play a copy of a spell.
19:06:05 <oren_> we used to use scraps of paper with "elf" or "goblin" written on them
19:06:18 <tswett> It's possible for a copy of a spell to have the type "creature", right?
19:06:30 <coppro> especially since a copy of an ability is an ability
19:06:34 <b_jonas> tswett: no
19:06:35 <ais523> tswett: I'm not sure if any cards actually do that
19:06:40 <b_jonas> tswett: you can copy only instant an sorcery spells
19:06:45 * tswett nods.
19:06:53 <ais523> if it tried to resolve, it'd go to the battlefield and then cease to exist when SBAs were checked
19:07:06 <ais523> (because once a copy of the spell has left the stack it can't change zones again)
19:07:14 <coppro> I believe there is no way to get a copy of a permanent spell
19:07:14 <tswett> What if you have a card that's a "Land Creature Instant"?
19:07:22 <tswett> Frsrstho...
19:07:31 <tswett> Are there any cards that have more than one type, one of which is Sorcery or Instant?
19:07:34 <coppro> tswett: the standard answer is "the rules are not designed to handle impossible cases"
19:07:41 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, Tribal ones
19:07:47 <ais523> tswett: Tribals only
19:07:51 <b_jonas> tswett: but not Creature ones or Artifact ones
19:07:55 <coppro> or in other words, a Land Creature Instant is a contradiction, from which anything follows ;)
19:08:17 <tswett> That's why everything is legal in every country.
19:08:22 <tswett> Their laws contain contradictions.
19:08:38 <ais523> coppro: it's only the Instant there that's the contradiction
19:08:47 <ais523> although it's possible to get a tribal with no other types, I think
19:08:49 <ais523> or even a typeless permanent
19:09:33 <coppro> yes, such things are possible on the battlefield
19:09:40 <b_jonas> For a copy of an activated ability on the stack that targets, how does protection treat it, as in, how does it check the characteristic of the base object to determine if it can target the object-or-player with protection?
19:10:01 <ais523> copy has the same source as the original, I think
19:10:06 <coppro> yep
19:10:33 <tswett> I want to write the MTG rules in C#.
19:10:39 <oren_> ␀␁␂␃␄␅␆␇␈␉␊␋␌␍␎␏
19:10:42 <tswett> Say, does C# let you do call-with-current-continuation?
19:10:48 <zzo38> I want to invent a programming language to write the MTG rules with
19:11:34 <zzo38> As far as I can tell if a card's type is "Land Creature Instant" then it let you to play it as a land but then it remains in your hand when you play it, but it still uses up the one land per turn but you cannot tap it for mana or whatever
19:11:36 <coppro> tswett: http://ra3s.com/wordpress/dysfunctional-programming/a-little-callcc-in-csharp/
19:11:49 <b_jonas> tswett: good luck figuring out how some of the rules work. There's cases I don't know, though you can ask people who are much better in rules than I am.
19:12:10 <b_jonas> (But I'm still proud of that one rules hole I found that was acknowledge by wizards.)
19:12:21 <ais523> b_jonas: what was it?
19:12:30 <oren_> wiat, if you can do it in c# then you can do it in VB!
19:12:35 <zzo38> And if the type is just "Instant Creature" then it is cast like a instant but can have power/toughness like a creature so effects that refer to it when not in play can still consider it as a creature card and so on
19:12:49 <zzo38> oren_: Well, in VB.NET anyways you could I suppose
19:12:55 <oren_> eaxtly
19:13:50 <b_jonas> ais523: Patron of the Akki with Boros Recruit offered. The hole was patched at about Morningtide, and they replied to my post acknowledging that they knew it from me.
19:13:58 <coppro> no, VB.NET doesn't have all features of the runtime
19:14:16 <coppro> it's not a given that something doable in C# is doable in VB.NET
19:14:16 <ais523> b_jonas: what used to happen? undefined behaviour?
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19:14:22 <oren_> ✓✔✕✖✗✘
19:14:31 <coppro> (Also for a time, C# didn't either. I don't know if that's still true)
19:14:31 <b_jonas> ais523: yes
19:14:35 <coppro> (I think it is)
19:15:08 <b_jonas> s/Morningtide/Eventide/
19:15:17 <b_jonas> I noticed it because of the hybrids in Shadowmoor
19:15:21 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, "difference in mana costs" with hybrid
19:15:37 <ais523> strangely, neither card has rulings
19:15:55 <ais523> you'd think they'd at least clarify what the interaction was on one of the cards that made you think about this
19:15:59 <ais523> (probably on the offering cards)
19:16:03 <tswett> I'm reasonably sure C# still doesn't let you use every possible feature of... crap, what's it called.
19:16:09 <tswett> CIL.
19:16:25 <zzo38> Then program in CIL
19:16:27 <ais523> what happens nowadays?
19:16:32 <coppro> CLR is the runtime
19:16:45 <coppro> CIL is the intermediate language
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19:18:06 <b_jonas> ais523: the new ruling is what I wouldn't affect: if you reduce a cost by {W/R}, you can choose to reduce it by {W} or {R}. (You can remove a {1} when you reduce by {W}, as before.)
19:18:42 <b_jonas> This is a bit counterintuitive, but it's similar to how adding the mana cost of a card to your mana pool works (and used to work always, before this ruling).
19:19:00 <tswett> Can you add {W/R} to your mana pool?
19:19:13 <b_jonas> tswett: no, when an effect would add it, you choose to add {W} or {R}
19:19:17 <ais523> tswett: yes, you get either W or R
19:20:05 <b_jonas> it's a very rare effect thoguh
19:21:01 <b_jonas> Charmed Pendant and Elemental Resonance has such an effect
19:21:49 <b_jonas> Probably fewer cards have it than offering, but of course everyone is trying to forget the bad cards from Kamigawa block
19:21:53 <b_jonas> Including me.
19:22:15 <b_jonas> The rules and infrastructure can't forget them though, they have to support flip cards and such.
19:22:56 <b_jonas> Mind you, flip cards don't really cause that much additional trouble that you wouldn't have from morph and double-faced cards anyway, so it's not a big deal.
19:23:20 <hppavilion[1]> I want to practice networking
19:23:23 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone have any ideas?
19:23:44 <b_jonas> I think flip cards still suck in Gatherer though, they're handled inconsistently in two ways dependin on which flip card.
19:24:06 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: um, which meaning of "networking"
19:24:12 <hppavilion[1]> socketry
19:24:33 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a nerd, I can't do networking in a social context xD
19:25:20 <b_jonas> hehe, "socketry" is a nice word
19:25:24 <hppavilion[1]> I know
19:25:33 <hppavilion[1]> Many ponies individually made it up
19:25:43 <hppavilion[1]> I should turn off Ponify in hexchat xD
19:26:11 <b_jonas> like sorcery or wizardry
19:26:35 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: nah, it's fine
19:26:39 <hppavilion[1]> Too late xD
19:27:02 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone have any ideas though?
19:28:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ESO Sockets]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44159 * Hppavilion1 * (+123) Created Page
19:29:20 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone want to brainstorm ideas?
19:30:40 <b_jonas> come on come on come on
19:30:48 <b_jonas> it's 19:30Z already
19:31:52 <hppavilion[1]> No one?
19:34:10 * Melvar ponders a language in which the way to write a newline in a string is "\␊".
19:34:28 <ais523> I added trigraphs to underlambda
19:34:35 <Sgeo> Does oerjan logread?
19:34:37 <b_jonas> what
19:34:45 <b_jonas> I dislike trigraphs
19:35:05 <b_jonas> well, in C and C++
19:35:13 <b_jonas> in underlambda they might make sense in the eso way
19:35:21 <ais523> amazingly, all the characters that are awkward in underlambda are either trigraphable characters or the trigger of trigraphable characters
19:35:29 <ais523> so I just reversed some of the trigraphs
19:35:31 <ais523> e.g. ??\ is /
19:35:40 <ais523> also underlambda only accepts trigraphs inside string literals
19:36:06 <b_jonas> ais523: is it like dc in that string literals often contain commands?
19:36:17 <ais523> no
19:36:24 <ais523> you'd use a code literal for that
19:36:29 <b_jonas> ok
19:36:36 <Sgeo> ais523, you're a nomicy person, do you agree with me that 126:12's judgement is flawed, because mixing tier 1 + tier 16 isn't necessarily a @ version of an element?
19:36:37 <Sgeo> http://www.sir-toby.com/nomic-archives/frc/round126.txt
19:36:40 <ais523> string literals are just lists of ints, which you'd need to write a parser for to convert into code
19:37:02 <ais523> Sgeo: wow, you're asking me to make a judgement on a nomic that I'm a member of but has been dead for months if not years?
19:37:24 <b_jonas> ais523: dead in what sense?
19:37:31 <Sgeo> >.> actually this judgement is from almost 16 years ago
19:37:32 <b_jonas> and what is dead, you or the nomic?
19:38:10 <ais523> b_jonas: the nomic
19:38:19 <ais523> and in the sense that nobody has made any moves
19:38:22 <ais523> nor posted to its mailing list
19:38:34 <Sgeo> I might complain about this to the mailing list
19:38:39 <ais523> the nomic isn't in an ossified state or anything like that
19:39:26 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, the other two interpretations was that you were dead in that you didn't contribute to that nomic, or that you were dead in some in-game way so that you couldn't contribute
19:39:35 <b_jonas> like, negative hit points
19:40:02 <ais523> Sgeo: also note that FRC basically uses dictatorial judegments
19:40:11 <ais523> they /can/ be overturned by vote but it's incredibly rare for anyone to even start one
19:40:19 <ais523> a vote, that is
19:40:43 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, you were tripped up by English grammar here, I thnk
19:40:45 <ais523> *think
19:40:52 <Sgeo> The judge invited people to point out a flaw in their reasoning
19:40:55 <b_jonas> yes
19:40:59 <Sgeo> I'm just doing it a bit late
19:41:05 <ais523> you can't use "has" to refer to yourself unless you're talking about yourself in the third person, you have to use "have"
19:41:10 <ais523> thus the nomic is the only possible referent
19:41:31 <b_jonas> ok
19:41:52 <b_jonas> ais523: not even in a relative clause and nonstandard but popular grammar?
19:42:38 <ais523> I can imagine someone doing it by mistake
19:42:51 <ais523> but I can't think of a combination where it would be considered correct (perhaps there are exceptions though)
19:42:57 <b_jonas> hmm…
19:43:30 <b_jonas> How about in clauses that start with “It is I who” ?
19:43:59 <Sgeo> ais523, are there mailing list logs somewhere? So I could see if someone else noticed it?
19:44:02 <ais523> b_jonas: ugh, hmm
19:44:09 <ais523> I'd use "have" there but I'm not 100% sure it's correct
19:44:13 <ais523> Sgeo: the mailing list has jumped around over time
19:44:18 <ais523> it's currently on Google Groups I think
19:44:22 <ais523> but probably wasn't back then?
19:44:55 <Sgeo> What's the worst that could happen if I post about it now?
19:45:59 <oren_> it is I who've written a brainfuck interpreter.
19:46:02 <oren_> it is I who's written a brainfuck interpreter.
19:46:27 <oren_> hmmm... I think who's is more correct
19:46:39 <ais523> Sgeo: I believe 126:11 is INVALID, because it implies that something is true that would cause a previous rule to be VALID if it were true, and the ruling at the time is that it was false
19:47:04 <ais523> Sgeo: the destruction of the entire universe, but that's also the worst that could happen if you don't post about it
19:47:06 <ais523> I say go for it
19:48:54 <ais523> Sgeo: a previous rule says that mixing in extreme proportions always gives you the @ form of an element that's the difference
19:49:02 <ais523> so I don't think your complaint is correct
19:49:07 <ais523> the FRC was great fun, thoguh
19:49:20 <ais523> so if you want to revive it, I'd be up for it, and maybe some of the older players will turn up
19:50:20 <b_jonas> ais523: was fun isn't enough. did it die in a not very broken state?
19:51:16 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, the state that it died in is that the judge failed to start the next round, and that a majority of players who care to vote is needed to forcibly change the judge
19:51:38 <ais523> I hope there isn't a quorum, but I don't think there is
19:51:46 <ais523> in which case I could try to make the change myself
19:51:50 <ais523> I doubt anyone would /object/
19:52:32 <b_jonas> When did this nomic start and die, in real time?
19:52:45 <coppro> FRC doesn't have quorum, no
19:52:46 <b_jonas> approximately
19:52:49 <ais523> it predates Agora, but wasn't played continuously when it was active
19:52:53 <coppro> I think I could be convinced to get back into it
19:53:03 <coppro> although I wish it would get more legalistic again
19:53:15 <ais523> FRC rules seem to be here: https://sites.google.com/site/fantasyrulescommittee/regular-ordinances-of-the-frc
19:53:41 <b_jonas> hmm… does it use a majority vote in which you can take it over easily if you revive it and nobody responds quickly?
19:53:43 <coppro> yep, that's correct
19:53:58 <coppro> ais523: I would vote for a proposal to get it going
19:54:07 <ais523> looks like rule 14 allows us to change the judge via an overrule proposal
19:54:19 <ais523> and the forum is still the frc-play google group because nobody's changed it since the last round
19:55:21 <coppro> ais523: while you're there
19:55:26 <coppro> propose to make the judge not eligible only once?
19:55:44 <ais523> ?
19:55:49 <coppro> 4 (a) and (g)
19:56:08 <ais523> that'd need an amendment, which is different from the overrule we need to get going
19:56:11 <ais523> so I'll let someone else propose that
19:56:16 <hppavilion[1]> Here's an idea
19:56:31 <hppavilion[1]> Programming language that works like the Constitution
19:56:40 <hppavilion[1]> You can't change previously defined things, you can only ammend them
19:56:45 <ais523> also I'm not sure I can post to the list since I deleted all my google accounts
19:56:48 <ais523> but only one way to find out
19:57:21 <ais523> anyway, David Nicol won round 315 by default
19:57:30 <ais523> 24 January 2012
19:57:39 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: which "Constitution" works like that?
19:57:49 <b_jonas> I'm quite sure ours doesn't, neither the old one nor the new one
19:57:53 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: The 'Murican one
19:58:14 <b_jonas> ok
19:58:24 <b_jonas> I don't think that ever works in practice, but whatever
19:59:10 <Sgeo> ais523, non-atomic elements
19:59:46 <ais523> coppro: looks like I can't post to the list
20:00:25 <Sgeo> tier 1 would be atomic elements
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20:00:44 <ais523> coppro: huh, there's been play since I was subscribed there, too
20:00:52 <ais523> I guess I'm not resurrecting the FRC because Google :-(
20:01:35 <b_jonas> ais523: is an overrule even possible? overrules are for a single round, and there's no round
20:01:56 <ais523> I assumed that we're always in /some/ round
20:02:02 <b_jonas> even if you overrule for some particular round (presumably a future one), that won't help because there's no way to start a round
20:02:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
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20:03:24 <b_jonas> ais523: do you mean the mailing list is subscribe-only?
20:03:35 <b_jonas> I mean, postable only if you subscribe
20:03:43 <b_jonas> and you can't subscribe without the list admin approving?
20:03:51 <b_jonas> Can't you resubscribe?
20:04:05 <ais523> b_jonas: I can't subscribe without a Google account
20:04:07 <ais523> which I refuse to get
20:04:09 <b_jonas> There's been a post not very long ago, so maybe a list moderator is still active.
20:04:13 <ais523> (there is also a manual CAPTCHA, too)
20:04:20 <b_jonas> ais523: what? I think you can subscribe to a google list from any mailing list
20:04:22 <b_jonas> can't yuo?
20:04:33 <b_jonas> is that not how these things work these days?
20:04:34 <ais523> you only subscribe via the web interface
20:04:37 <b_jonas> wtf
20:04:40 <ais523> and tie it to a google account
20:04:41 <b_jonas> um
20:04:43 <b_jonas> crazy
20:04:44 <ais523> because google groups isn't really mailing lists
20:04:45 <b_jonas> really?
20:04:54 <ais523> it's a webforum where one of the access methods happens to be via email
20:04:56 <b_jonas> ais523: they're not mailing lists only, but they contain a mailing list
20:04:58 <b_jonas> or so I thought
20:05:18 <b_jonas> so they work differently from yahoo groups?
20:05:19 <b_jonas> ok
20:05:58 <b_jonas> you could try to contact the current judge and propose to change the forum or something
20:11:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: buying food).
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20:13:04 <tswett> Huh. Looks like in MTG tournaments, if your opponent does something illegal, you are generally required to point it out to them; failing to do so may be considered cheating.
20:13:58 <b_jonas> tswett: if you know it's invalid, yes
20:14:13 <zzo38> Yes but sometimes you might not notice either
20:14:25 <zzo38> Of course it is cheating though
20:14:27 <b_jonas> yes, in that case it's not _cheating_
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20:20:56 <tswett> It also looks like if your opponent asks you a question that your opponent theoretically should know the answer to, you're required to answer "completely and honestly".
20:25:06 <b_jonas> ah, gotta go in a minute, encode is available
20:25:13 <b_jonas> I just need a bit of buffer
20:26:02 <tswett> Ah, apparently it's not cheating unless you're attempting to gain an advantage.
20:26:14 <coppro> tswett: that provision is interpreted pretty liberally though
20:26:32 <b_jonas> sure, because lots of things can give advantage in a game
20:26:45 <b_jonas> even risky stuff that might or might not actually help you in the end
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20:40:02 <hppavilion[1]> What other weird kinds of ISA could I make?
20:40:16 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making one with variable-length instructions
20:41:00 <ais523> make one where no instruction takes any argument, and each instruction works by modifying the program itself
20:41:13 <hppavilion[1]> Interesting...
20:41:16 <ais523> and there's no control flow but unconditional gotos that jump a set distance
20:41:18 <hppavilion[1]> I'll record that idea
20:41:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making the TaurusVM a set of virtual machines that each do different things
20:41:40 <ais523> (trying to find a space that esolangs have played in but that hasn't lead to a TC language yet)
20:42:02 <hppavilion[1]> What should I do for the binary format?
20:42:07 <hppavilion[1]> For TaurusVM in general?
20:42:29 <hppavilion[1]> Currently it starts with a null-terminated identifier string that tells it which VM and wich version to use
20:42:41 <hppavilion[1]> Followed by a flat binary
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20:43:12 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: that seems sensilbe
20:43:21 <ais523> you might want a fixed header so that tools like file(1) can recognise it
20:43:47 <hppavilion[1]> What do you mean a fixed header?
20:46:18 <hppavilion[1]> Should I also make an archive format?
20:46:28 <tswett> You could use ELF.
20:46:33 <hppavilion[1]> I could
20:46:38 <hppavilion[1]> OR I could invent my own xD
20:51:03 <zzo38> I think a flat binary will do
20:51:43 <zzo38> If you need multiple parts, one way is Hamster archive format, although there are other ways too
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20:55:52 <hppavilion[1]> OK
20:56:16 <hppavilion[1]> I'll just go with Flat Binary and will change it in the final release if I feel like it
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21:09:03 <ais523> btw, for people who like silly Magic decks, starcitygames is reporting that a 60-card Modern deck including 24 basic Islands and 20 basic Swamps came 4th at a WMCQ
21:09:15 <ais523> the editor added notes saying that he thought someone might be trolling them
21:09:41 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
21:09:45 <pikhq> What're the other 16 cards?
21:09:56 <ais523> I'm trying to find evidence here
21:10:16 <ais523> 3 dismal backwater, 3 fairie conclave, 4 reliquary tower, 2 zombie infestation, 4 treasure hunt
21:10:37 <ais523> (the columnist thought that the dismal backwaters were evidence that the deck was an intentional troll attempt)
21:11:36 <ais523> unfortunately the scg column doesn't say /which/ WMCQ it was
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21:13:48 <pikhq> That... can't possibly be anything but a troll attempt.
21:14:05 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined.
21:14:06 <pikhq> Maybe someone literally played it, but even so.
21:14:11 <ais523> indeed, it's clearly a troll attempt
21:14:33 <ais523> the question is whether someone was trolling the WMCQ and got really lucky
21:14:41 <ais523> or whether someone was trolling starcitygames and they fell for it
21:14:48 <pikhq> ?8nod*
21:14:49 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
21:14:52 <pikhq> *nod
21:15:21 <ais523> that deck does at least have a clear win condition
21:16:03 <pikhq> Yes. It is *possible* to play it and win.
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21:17:30 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/prog_wins/ the most gratuitous animation possible (if you change the sort order)
21:17:50 <coppro> ais523: or someone submitted an incorrect decklist as a troll
21:18:00 <fizzie> Although I like the idea of showing kettle in reverse order, it makes those things look like the inkblot tests.
21:18:25 <ais523> coppro: the judges would have caught it, surely
21:18:54 <fizzie> Although I've got the points/colors inverted from what I described.
21:19:23 <ais523> it doesn't look /that/ much like an inkblot test because it doesn't really remind me of anything
21:19:47 <coppro> ais523: only if he was deckchecked
21:20:33 <fizzie> ais523: My wife found meanings for all three she looked at.
21:20:46 <ais523> coppro: someone who reached the top 8 would be
21:21:13 <ais523> strangely enough, margins sometimes doesn't stand out that much
21:21:23 <coppro> ais523: they should be
21:21:33 <coppro> if it's an inexperienced judge staff, anything could happen
21:21:33 <ais523> also, perhaps there should be an {average} for the program
21:21:43 <oren_> is there a card that says target creature gets upkeep 1?
21:21:46 <ais523> coppro: btw, what happens if you do a deck check and the deck they've written down is /nothing like/ the deck they're playing?
21:21:56 <ais523> oren_: tabernacle of something is close
21:22:04 <ais523> pendrell vale
21:22:09 <ais523> it gives all creatures upkeep 1
21:22:15 <ais523> and is apparently massively expensive
21:22:29 <oren_> ah yeah i think that's what i read about once
21:22:54 <coppro> ais523: I'm probably going to end up disqualifying them for cheating
21:22:58 <ais523> margins looks pretty :-)
21:23:10 <ais523> coppro: I'd think that too
21:23:17 <ais523> but I can see non-cheating cases where it happens
21:23:21 <coppro> it's not a given, obviously, but they'd have to work pretty hard to convince me they weren't cheating
21:23:24 <ais523> e.g. when someone writes down their decklist the night before, changes the deck
21:23:26 <ais523> writes down a new decklist
21:23:32 <ais523> then submits the old one by mistake
21:23:36 <coppro> I can too, but I don't need proof
21:23:47 <coppro> if they say that's why, I'd say "Ok, where's the other one then?"
21:23:55 <coppro> If they show me the decklist for their actual deck, I might not DQ them
21:24:15 <fizzie> I think I broke the program switcher somehow, which is weird.
21:24:52 <ais523> I think a fun game with fizzie's visualizations is to find something that shows a graph for all programs
21:24:54 <ais523> and try to pick out margins
21:24:59 <ais523> I need to work on margins2 sometime
21:25:05 <ais523> it'd be like margins but with a better win percentage
21:25:14 <ais523> maybe 52% rather than 51%
21:25:50 <ais523> (also, I approve of "vaguely yellowish" as a colour description)
21:27:07 <ais523> fizzie: err, according to this list, ais523.monolith doesn't draw with itself on every tape length
21:27:25 <ais523> I think the list of program names is getting screwed up somehow
21:28:13 <ais523> reproduction: refresh the page, then select monolith from the program list, then choose to sort by points
21:28:39 <fizzie> ais523: I broke the program selector when flipping the points, which was an impressive screw-up.
21:28:48 <ais523> ah right
21:28:54 <ais523> so the wrong program is selected
21:28:58 <ais523> and so you get a different set of results
21:29:13 <fizzie> Yes. Well, technically, what I broke was to freeze the colors of each grid square.
21:29:49 <ais523> OK, so what we can do is look at the programs, and the one that draws with everything is margins
21:32:06 <fizzie> Yeah, it's pretty yellowish.
21:36:22 <ais523> the original idea of margins was "win on tape length 10, draw everything else"
21:36:27 <ais523> it diverged from that a bit
21:36:46 <ais523> but it's still the case that it cannot move to the enemy flag if the tape length is 13 or longer
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21:39:33 <hppavilion[1]> GOT THE SET INSTRUCTION WORKING IN TAURUS VM!
21:39:35 <hppavilion[1]> I AM SO HAPPY!
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21:41:27 <hppavilion[1]> ALL WORSHIP MY WRATHLY GLORY
21:46:08 <zzo38> OK
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21:51:54 <hppavilion[1]> No one is worshipping my wrathly glory :,(
21:56:20 <oren_> ●←▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█
21:58:35 <hppavilion[1]> Should I do something with Shared Libraries for Taurus?
22:02:12 <hppavilion[1]> Does anyone feel like joining the Zodiac Working Group?
22:02:16 <zzo38> You could; do you have a full specification so far?
22:02:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I have a 0.1 specification for the ISA
22:02:49 <hppavilion[1]> Is it an ISA or executable format?
22:02:55 <hppavilion[1]> I don't really know xD
22:03:27 <zzo38> I also don't know
22:03:50 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just going to call it an ISA for now xD
22:05:29 <zzo38> OK
22:05:39 <zzo38> Some things are both
22:05:42 <hppavilion[1]> I think I did it a little weirdly, as every program has access to a 2**64-register array
22:06:02 <hppavilion[1]> So do you want to join the ZWG, zzo38?
22:06:09 <zzo38> Not at this time.
22:06:12 <hppavilion[1]> OK
22:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if I'll be able to get a compiler working when I have: a) Finished the IVM b) Written an assembler and c) Designed a language
22:07:15 <hppavilion[1]> I might just be too stupid to write compilers xD
22:07:26 <hppavilion[1]> Last time I checked, only gods can write them
22:09:48 <hppavilion[1]> I settled on a file extenstion for Taurus BTW (though I'll change it if it's taken by something popular):
22:09:49 <hppavilion[1]> .tau
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22:11:57 <hppavilion[1]> How should GUI work in TaurusVM?
22:12:29 <zzo38> I don't know, it may depend on how instructions and how other stuff is working, I suppose
22:14:37 <hppavilion[1]> Probably
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22:27:46 <FireFly> Do you know of any good font editors for vector font formats?
22:28:35 <zzo38> No
22:30:17 <FireFly> Okay
22:30:54 <oren_> Fontforge
22:31:27 <oren_> I use it to adjust the font properties because fontstruct.com doesn't set them right
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22:40:29 <oerjan> <Melvar> So you can say (subtract x) because (-x) does the other thing. <-- also "negate" because (-) does the _opposite_ other thing hth
22:42:16 <oerjan> logreading is no fun when everyone who spoke in the logs is absent
22:42:25 <oerjan> (hi Sgeo_)
22:42:39 <Sgeo_> Hi oerjan
22:43:05 <Sgeo_> oerjan, so yeah, I posted my complaint to the FRC mailing list
22:43:18 <oerjan> is there one that is still alive
22:43:49 <Sgeo_> I used frc-play@googlegroups.com. I don't know if it counts as still alive
22:44:34 <oerjan> i wouldn't really know, haven't played for > decade
22:45:41 <Sgeo_> Well it was a question about a round from almost 16 years ago
22:46:27 <oerjan> i saw that, i think, i don't think i played that round either
22:47:49 <oerjan> definitely not, i was in a mental hospital then
22:48:09 <oerjan> same year my mother died
22:52:20 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm. if it's _intentional_ trolling, would the judges be able to disqualify him?
22:52:23 <Sgeo_> Sorry to hear that
22:53:07 <b_jonas> ah! changed the deck and so had to replace with basic lands. could happen, yes
22:53:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Roadrunner]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44160 * Tripl3dogdare * (+3042) Created page
22:54:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44161&oldid=44145 * Tripl3dogdare * (+17) /* R */
22:55:40 <myname> basically a less funny ook
22:55:55 <myname> disappointing
22:56:01 <oerjan> darn
22:56:07 <oerjan> with such a good name
22:56:27 <myname> yeah, you could have done something with the game from.sierra
22:56:35 <myname> that would actually be amazing
22:56:48 <oerjan> i don't know about sierra but i know about the cartoons
23:00:07 <myname> oh, it's actually lode runner
23:00:19 <oerjan> i started to suspect that
23:00:44 <oerjan> (not that i know that game either. i'm not much of a computer gamer.)
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23:01:42 <myname> me neither
23:01:58 <b_jonas> what format was that?
23:02:08 <myname> that game is over 20 years old ...
23:02:28 <b_jonas> oh, it has Treasure Hunt!
23:02:32 <b_jonas> then it's not trolling
23:02:43 <myname> ?
23:02:47 <b_jonas> get lots of cards with Treasure Hunt, discard them for Zombie Infestation
23:03:19 <b_jonas> it's sort of like those decks with only one or two lands, for that red card that reveals cards from the deck until the first land and deal damage for each one
23:03:36 <myname> what?
23:03:46 <b_jonas> I'm not saying it's a very good deck, and I'm not familiar with these things though
23:04:09 <b_jonas> myname: an M:tG deck discussed three hours ago here
23:04:19 <myname> ah
23:04:23 <b_jonas> and I mean what M:tG format
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23:12:21 <izabera> http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/ <-- do you know this?
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23:31:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Roadrunner]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44162&oldid=44160 * Tripl3dogdare * (+0) /* External Resources */
23:36:20 <tswett> Hmm. What happens if you play Pendrell Flux on a creature which has no mana cost?
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23:41:30 <MDude> I would guess it just gets away with paying nothing?
23:42:22 <MDude> If the cost was to balance out some sort of advantage it'd be more interesting a decision.
23:43:51 <tswett> Or is the cost treated as an unpayable cost, meaning there's no way to keep it from getting sacrificed?
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23:44:59 <MDude> I would err on the former just because the enchantment is basically an attack that relies on it's opponents mana.
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23:45:53 <MDude> But I don't have any particular idea what does into MtG jude decisions other than keeping the game going.
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23:53:51 <zzo38> The only thing that should be relevant are the rules of the game.
23:54:59 <zzo38> You need to make the rules into a mathematically format that can be put into computer in a new kind of programming language, if it is mathematical then you can figure out much better what is defined or not, it is much more clearly. Use literate programming to make much more clearly even more.
23:58:34 <zzo38> That is how I would design a similar kind of card game.
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