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00:09:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The fnord never fnords fnord in the fnord fnord | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
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00:12:30 <oerjan> The never in the what?
00:14:08 <shachaf> oerjan: you can't spell "whenever" without fnord "never"
00:18:03 <oerjan> very ominously put there
00:21:50 <shachaf> fungot: tell oerjan what's up
00:21:50 <fungot> shachaf: memo from yome: tell minion yow!
00:22:06 <lambdabot> Oh, I LOST my ``HELLO KITTY'' DOLL and I get BAD reception on channel
00:22:06 <lambdabot> Th'HOSTESS FACTORY is closin' down and I just heard ZASU PITTS has been
00:22:17 <lambdabot> My PLATFORM SHOE collection was CHEWED up by th' dog, ALEXANDER HAIG
00:22:17 <lambdabot> won't let me take a SHOWER 'til Easter ... (snurf)
00:22:20 <lambdabot> So I went to the kitchen, but WALNUT PANELING whup me upside mah HAID!!
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00:25:59 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask auto-reply auto-reply? v @ ? .
00:26:23 <lambdabot> . [or compose] is the composition of two plugins
00:26:23 <lambdabot> The following semantics are used: . f g xs == g xs >>= f
00:27:52 <zzo38> Did you try using the INVITE command?
00:28:08 <zzo38> Then read the help file
00:28:27 <zzo38> The server has a help file to explain its working.
00:34:01 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:34:06 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:34:17 <zzo38> The help file is the HELP command on the server
00:34:48 <zzo38> The command you need to send is the "HELP INVITE" I don't know what IRC client you are using, see how you access server help file using it
00:35:23 <oerjan> i don't recall lambdabot responding to invite, i think you need to be an admin to make it join channels.
00:35:53 <oerjan> or you could be shachaf unless someone's closed the loophole
00:37:10 <oerjan> i think that's the one
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00:47:51 <oren_> Im bac! helO hppavilion[1]
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00:49:21 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/speliG.htm <- wut dU yU TiGk uv Dis?
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00:50:38 <oren_> is is u speliG reform pRpOsL
00:52:50 <oren_> Du IdEu is Dat it is ferlE clOs tU cRNt speliG and CatspEk
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00:54:12 <oren_> ol lowRcAs letRs are Du sAm, onlE upRcAs letRs hav nU sWnds
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00:57:37 <oren_> sO mOst pEpL can figR it Wt frum context espeSLE bEcuz letRs lIk x,c,q,y retAn Der orijNL mEniG
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01:00:56 <oren_> Dus it strIks u balNs betwEn tradiSNL speliG and fNetic speliG
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01:04:13 <tswett> So, I've been thinking about natural numbers and other things.
01:04:29 <tswett> Given a set S, the following two concepts are equivalent.
01:04:58 <tswett> In any case, consider the following concept: "a set S, an element of S, and a function S -> S".
01:05:23 <tswett> Given "one of those", and a natural number, there's an obvious way of getting an element of S.
01:05:38 <tswett> Just start with the element there and apply the function the appropriate number of times.
01:06:26 <tswett> Indeed, it may or may not make sense to *define* a natural number as something that takes any "one of those" and returns an element of S.
01:07:03 <tswett> Given this, I'm wondering what the most appropriate term for "one of those" would be.
01:07:08 <tswett> I'm thinking "natural number algebra".
01:08:49 <oren_> duz evrE elMNt uv S haf tU bE rECabL bI itRAtiG Du funcSN on Du elMNt?
01:09:21 <oren_> does every element of S have to be reachable by iterating the function on the element?
01:10:45 <oren_> menE 'wuns uv DOs' wil bE eqivLNt
01:11:15 <tswett> I lIk yOr speliG prOpOzL.
01:12:20 <oerjan> tswett: in system F, naturals are defined as the type forall a. (a -> a) -> (a -> a) hth
01:12:34 <izabera> why does idea become IdEu?
01:12:37 <oerjan> which is equivalent to what you said
01:12:49 <oren_> u represents the u sound in but
01:13:20 <oren_> I as in kite, E as in beet, u as in but
01:13:23 <oerjan> i suppose that's also the church encoding
01:13:44 <shachaf> @google natural numbers object
01:13:45 <lambdabot> http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/natural+numbers+object
01:13:46 <lambdabot> Title: natural numbers object in nLab
01:13:46 <izabera> it's hard for non native english speakers
01:14:26 <oerjan> izabera: i'm pretty sure oren_'s system conflates several english sounds
01:14:40 <oerjan> the u in but is not the same as the a in idea
01:14:40 <tswett> All English speakers conflate several English sounds.
01:14:50 <oerjan> well maybe in oren_'s dialect
01:15:59 <shachaf> tswett: Your definition is like the least fixed point of Maybe.
01:16:01 * oerjan realizes "conflate" is probably not easy for non native speakers either
01:16:06 <tswett> How many syllables is "idea" supposed to have?
01:16:13 <shachaf> Mu Maybe = forall r. (Maybe r -> r) -> r
01:17:31 <tswett> shachaf: well, natural numbers are like the least fixed point of Maybe.
01:18:20 <shachaf> anyway conaturals > naturals
01:19:28 <izabera> why element -> elMNt instead of LMNt?
01:19:35 <oren_> oerjan: Dis sistM duzNt distiGwiS ol sWnds in mI dIulect EDR
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01:20:35 <tswett> izabera: the difference between "el" and "L" is like the difference between the "el" in "repel" and the "le" in "ripple".
01:23:06 <oren_> oerjan: for ixampL, W wiT and wiTWt canAdEin rAsiG.
01:25:18 <oren_> (Du sWnds in 'loud' and 'lout' wud boT bE W)
01:30:54 <oren_> hWevR, yU can stil figR it Wt frum Du folOwiG t or d
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01:53:32 <zzo38> What would my variant True Seeing spell be worth in terms of slot level and so on?
01:53:48 <shachaf> I don't know your variant.
01:55:03 <zzo38> It is a much simpler effect: The target can see things as if all magic were absent. You cannot selectively treat magics as absent; it must be all or none.
01:55:39 <shachaf> What if I summon a creature with magic? Will I be able to see it?
01:56:31 <zzo38> Yes, but you will not be able to see past any illusion that has subsequently been cast upon it.
01:57:02 <zzo38> If you choose to see past the illusion, you won't see the summoned creature either.
01:57:14 <zzo38> (Although you can still hear them)
01:57:44 <shachaf> What if I summon a creature and that creature attacks someone? Will I be able to see their wounds?
01:58:11 <oerjan> shachaf: let me guess, the last oots episode is chock full of references to the book...
01:59:12 <shachaf> I don't remember what's in the book.
01:59:19 <oerjan> CAN'T A MAN USE A SYNONYM WITHOUT EVERYONE GETTING CONFUSED
01:59:21 <shachaf> Maybe you can read it and remind me.
01:59:48 <shachaf> oerjan: burlew recently confused me about the terminology hth
01:59:54 <shachaf> Apparently a strip can contain multiple pages.
01:59:55 <oerjan> i only remember that that maneuver happened during the pyramid illusion
02:00:34 <shachaf> His grandfather taught it to him after he died.
02:00:56 <shachaf> And he's used it before, I think.
02:00:57 <shachaf> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html
02:00:58 <athenabot> An error occurred while processing the link.
02:01:17 <oerjan> athenabot: the error was that you spoke
02:02:02 <oerjan> shachaf: that was after the pyramid
02:03:21 <shachaf> Yes. Maybe I misunderstood the word "only".
02:04:02 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
02:04:49 <shachaf> Oh, now I see what you meant.
02:04:59 <shachaf> I meant "actually used it before", as opposed to "imagining that he used it".
02:07:57 <zzo38> Another kind of idea would be, spell that increase your AC and you receive only half damage with spells but you also get penalty to attacks and can only cause half damage with spells.
02:09:50 <shachaf> oerjan: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html hth
02:09:51 <athenabot> An error occurred while processing the link.
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02:16:16 <oerjan> we've got enough annoying bots already
02:18:46 <zgrep> But... what if *I'm* a bot? D:
02:20:00 * oerjan watches zgrep suspiciously
02:20:17 * zgrep makes suspicious noises
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02:54:56 <shachaf> oerjan: prediction: mr. scruffy will turn the tides hth
02:58:50 <oerjan> mr. scruffy didn't go down to the moot with them afair
03:00:10 <shachaf> mr. scruffy can follow belkar wherever he goes, i'm sure
03:03:11 <tswett> My client doesn't seem to recognize the latter as my nick.
03:12:55 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm wondering more about bloodfeast the former dinosaur
03:13:48 <oerjan> surely that polymorph spell will be removed some day
03:13:55 <shachaf> hmm, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm
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03:38:13 <pikhq> Finding out you can't get your passport before international travel: FUCK.
03:43:10 <hppavilion[1]> Why can't you get your passport, pikhq? May I ask?
03:49:19 <pikhq> I fucked up the application.
03:49:54 <pikhq> Helps handing them the *correct* expired passport.
03:50:03 <coppro> pikhq: is there an expedited application you can do to get it in time?
03:50:25 <pikhq> The soonest I can *get in* to apply for an expedited passport is after I need to be there.
03:51:05 <pikhq> Sucks to be me then.
03:53:14 <pikhq> ... sounds like I'm VCing at like midnight then?
03:55:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44111&oldid=44054 * Dennis * (+2)
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03:58:25 <coppro> I need to be at training for the new job tomorrow morning
03:58:28 <coppro> soon to be today morning
03:58:36 <coppro> doesthiswork: good to know
04:00:10 <coppro> software developer at a local firm
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04:20:36 <pikhq> It'd work at Google HTH.
04:27:52 <coppro> yeah it would, wouldn't it
04:27:58 <coppro> well, it wouldn't on your first day
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04:31:05 <mauris> hmm. what, actually, is the easiest TC esolang to implement
04:31:18 <mauris> like, brainfuck has brace matching! so hard
04:31:44 <doesthiswork> not really but you can just use someone else's implementation
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04:34:06 <zzo38> You should improve the list of complexity classes so that actually is some information being listed.
04:34:41 <mauris> shachaf: hmm, let's say C
04:35:03 <shachaf> You can compile bf to C pretty easily if you have a C compiler.
04:35:11 <shachaf> But I guess strictly speaking that's not what you mean by C.
04:36:55 <mauris> yeah, i mean like an actual C program that reads code and runs it; not a conversion to C
04:37:25 <mauris> i suppose "TC" is inaccurate but (barfs), do we have a word for "TC but not really but ykwim man"
04:44:17 <coppro> actually there is a concept for this
04:44:26 <coppro> I don't know of a succinct name
04:44:38 <coppro> but there does exist a notion of a turing-complete program class
04:44:49 <mauris> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bounded-storage_machine ?
04:44:50 <coppro> I'd have to look up my notes for them though and I'm going to sleep now
04:45:29 <coppro> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_complexity
04:46:47 <mauris> maybe bf where [ and ] are instead jumps that double/halve the pc
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05:16:08 <Jafet> It's so easy to implement a Turing-complete esolang in C, people do it by accident
05:16:39 <FreeFull> Did you know: Jafet is Turing-complete
05:17:12 <Jafet> #include <stdio.h> \ int main(void) { char buf[100]; fgets(buf, 1000, stdin); return 0; }
05:21:13 <Jafet> I hear some people are Turing-hard.
05:22:19 <mauris> that doesn't look like a very good interpreter
05:23:18 <FreeFull> mauris: You can use it to call a better one
05:23:20 <mauris> do you just pray "buf" is right before the memory you're executing, which gets buffer overflown and then instead of "return 0" you're running machine code?
05:25:08 <pikhq> In correct code, you don't buffer overflow, you dynamically size your buffer appropriately.
05:25:44 <pikhq> For instance: int main(void) { char *buf = 0; getline(&buf, (size_t[]){0}, stdin); return 0; }
05:27:29 <FreeFull> pikhq: (size_t[]){0} looks like C++
05:28:13 <pikhq> Essentially all that does is produce an unnamed size_t[1].
05:28:23 <pikhq> (on the stack, of course)
05:28:41 <pikhq> As a natural consequence of C99 adding array and struct literals.
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05:31:03 * izabera can hear people in ##c complaining because "getline not standard!!!1!"
05:33:19 <pikhq> And frankly that's plenty good enough. You're kidding yourself if you think not-POSIX land gives a shit about C at all these days.
05:36:15 <Jafet> If we're restricting ourselves to languages on the wiki, it's also much easier to interpret thue than brainfuck
05:36:57 <zzo38> Some stuff on esolang wiki would be difficult or perhaps even impossible to implement, but some is much easier than being impossible.
05:39:35 <quintopia> i never feel like i have enough time to implement stuff if it's more complicated than like...7 instructions :P
05:42:22 <Jafet> You could exploit the TBFS formalism to implement many languages.
05:43:17 <MDude> I'll try to implement codesine the next time I work on it.
05:44:19 <MDude> Or part of it anyway.
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05:45:37 <newsham> [19:16] < Jafet> It's so easy to implement a Turing-complete esolang in C, people do it by accident
05:45:44 <newsham> nah, too common to be considered esolang :)
06:06:05 <hppavilion[1]> @tell Virgolang Can I get a basic time table as to when you are and are not online??
06:15:43 <oren_> It's so easy to implement a Turing-complete esolang in C, people do it by accident <-- that is how scrip7 started
06:17:43 <oren_> I was initially trying to make a simple configuration file format, which ended up needing loops to assign the same value to a bunch of bytes, and if statements to make things depend on values placed in memory by the host, and... whoops
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06:20:54 <Jafet> http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/#sendmail-Turing
06:55:02 <mauris> pikhq: don't you need a free(buf) there?
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07:05:00 <mauris> https://github.com/catseye/Thue/blob/master/src/thue.c this looks a bit more involved than "match braces and run through a while loop" but some of it is fluff and most of it is the fact that handling strings in C is annoying
07:05:53 <izabera> can we talk about that indentation style?
07:07:08 <mauris> however, my opinion is that this is in almost no way simpler than brainfuck. its tokens are "big" so you can't just loop over the chars, there are lots of weird edge cases for I/O, it's nondeterministic, it involves string replacement
07:07:08 <oren_> yeah wtf. correct indents is one tab per indent.
07:07:19 <mauris> ps yes this indent style, help
07:09:10 <oren_> wel its mor Du lak uv cNsistNcE than anything
07:09:40 <oren_> ^ lk uv consistency ubuv deliberate
07:11:33 <oren_> olsO Du yus uv tU lIn ifs Dat cud fit on wun lIn
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07:16:34 <oren_> fuk yU mIcrOsoft wI cant I hav u '?' or '()' in mI fIlnAm?!
07:17:40 <izabera> what happens if you import data from a different filesystem?
07:17:58 <izabera> i mean if you import files with characters that ntfs wouldn't allow
07:18:27 <oren_> it just wont 'cp' Du fIl
07:18:28 <izabera> are they ignored? converted?
07:18:58 <oren_> sO I haf tU rEnAm Dem manUulE
07:19:59 <oren_> cp: cannot create regular file ‘music/Charly Lownoise & Mental Theo - Hardcore Feelings (?).mp3’: Invalid argument
07:27:21 <oren_> Du wRst part is I dNno wiC cerictRs ar invalid. stUpid erR mesaj!
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07:30:29 <Jafet> mauris: well, you don't need the clunky I/O for Turing-completeness. The string replacement is very easy to implement (strstr, realloc and memmove)
07:31:26 <oren_> wut!!!! cp: cannot create regular file ‘music/Milk Inc - Whisper.mp3’: File exists
07:33:40 <oren_> Du dRectRE wuz emptE! hW can Du nAms bE Du sAm on ntfs but difrNt on ext3?
07:34:03 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
07:36:25 <oren_> cMplAniG ubWt ntfs or spelling things in a new way?
07:37:32 <myname> it's actually pretty hard to read
07:38:34 <myname> i am impressed how it is even possible, though
07:39:03 <shachaf> Never mind hard, it's unpleasant.
07:40:04 <shachaf> What if we agree that oren_ uses this spelling and oren (or, better yet, orin) uses traditional spelling?
07:40:26 <Jafet> fungot can serve as an interpreter.
07:40:26 <fungot> Jafet: oh.. posb? nvr hear before leh.but i dun mind. you already there? rep. *brrr ur fb friends win cool coke can :)
07:40:58 <oren_> So how is it even possible to have two files with the same name in the same directory?
07:42:07 <izabera> I'VE BEEN LAUGHING FOR 10 MINUTES http://imgur.com/gallery/02BjRvJ
07:42:08 <oren_> Oh. NTFS is case insensitive. FUK!
07:42:15 <Jafet> Use ntfs-3g to mount the filesystem on linux in case-sensitive mode
07:43:04 <Jafet> On Windows, there's also SUA
07:46:57 <oren_> hmm the two files are actually identical.
07:47:06 <oren_> I'm keeping the one from 2006 though
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07:54:26 <lifthrasiir> oren_: also look at http://zompist.com/spell.html ("Spelling reform by regularization" section is relevant)
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07:58:30 <oren_> lifthrasiir: I see. he uses diacritics, but they aren't on my murikan keyboard, therefore capitcal letters are better.
08:02:51 <oren_> also this guy thinks cot has a different vowel than caught.
08:03:26 <b_jonas> "Another kind of idea would be, spell that increase your AC and you receive only half damage with spells but you also get penalty to attacks and can only cause half damage with spells." -- a steelform spell? sure, why not. it can't hurt to have more variations of those.
08:04:44 <lifthrasiir> oren_: "his" version of American English, so that is expected IMO.
08:05:18 <lifthrasiir> anyway, that page is a pretty good introduction to the automatic pronunciation reconstruction from spelling
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08:07:14 <oren_> but you can't do the opposite, which is kind of a problem if you want to look it up in a dictionary
08:08:17 <lifthrasiir> yeah, the spelling "reform" is what he got after removing any remaining special cases from his original reconsturction algorithm
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08:08:35 <lifthrasiir> that's pretty heuristic, and ultimately a bit ambiguous
08:08:42 <oren_> consider if i wanted to look up the word sot. i have to try sought, sot, saught, sawt
08:09:09 <oren_> afaik three of those are valid
08:10:03 <Jafet> Some dictionary software supports lookup by voice.
08:10:06 <oren_> i recommend banning the longer pellings
08:11:46 <oren_> actually ban any sequence of gh
08:13:44 <lifthrasiir> but the real complication is a large number of vowel digraphs (or, sometimes, trigraphs)
08:14:02 <lifthrasiir> we would have lots of them even after banning gh
08:25:25 <oren_> so we need more letters and lVk, Ders a SHIFT key on my keyboard that makes different letter when it's pressed, why don't we use that?!?
08:29:02 <oren_> i mean noone uses capital letters anymore on the internet unless they're shouting
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10:37:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44112&oldid=44107 * Jabutosama * (+1494) /* Programming with J-why */
10:38:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44113&oldid=44112 * Jabutosama * (+10) /* Programming with J-why */
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12:31:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainloller]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44114&oldid=42181 * 94.62.69.164 * (+16)
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12:45:14 <int-e> I've read about it
12:54:35 <int-e> I'm trying to work
13:03:19 <Taneb> izabera, I don't know it, what is it?
13:03:47 <Taneb> What kind of board game?
13:04:21 <izabera> there's this kite shaped board with two opposite red sides and two opposite blue sides
13:05:11 <izabera> each player must create a bridge between his two sides
13:05:39 <Taneb> I am not very good at it :(*
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13:53:10 <Taneb> I think I've got a sieve of Atkin in Haskell
13:53:42 <Taneb> Does anyone have a checksum of all the primes less than 6 million, in ascending order, one per line?
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14:06:39 <ashl> i get 5b5abad etc for the sha256
14:07:06 <Taneb> Got the right sha256
14:08:02 <ashl> `thanks cloud.sagemath.org
14:08:03 <HackEgo> Thanks, cloud.sagemath.org. Thoud.sagemath.org.
14:09:23 <Taneb> http://lpaste.net/140543
14:09:25 <ashl> wolfram alpha refused to help me
14:10:03 <Taneb> (depends on vector and pqueue)
14:11:48 <Taneb> (also kind of ugly code)
14:13:03 <Taneb> Sieve of Atkin is not the cleanest algorithm
14:13:08 <Taneb> Nor am I the best programmer
14:14:36 <FreeFull> The actual Sieve of Erastothenes is pretty good
14:16:34 <Taneb> ashl, there's a thing that used to (maybe still is) bandied about that claims to be the sieve of Erastothenes in Haskell but isn't
14:16:35 <FreeFull> As opposed to the fake version that is actually trial division in disguise
14:16:42 <Taneb> FreeFull, iirc it's worse than trial division
14:16:57 <Taneb> https://www.cs.hmc.edu/~oneill/papers/Sieve-JFP.pdf is the relevant paper
14:17:29 <Taneb> Oh no, it is trial division
14:19:12 <Taneb> Just bad trial division
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14:21:44 <Taneb> I used that paper for implementation hints
14:22:56 <Taneb> Although I got in a muddle and ended up just using the hint to use a priority queue
14:23:58 <Taneb> One thing I ought to work out how to do is generating the candidates lazily
14:24:35 <Taneb> So I can have an infinite list
14:26:24 <Taneb> Rather than just the first 6 million
14:26:31 <Taneb> (or any other natural multiple of 60)
14:48:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/%21
14:49:35 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Jun 21 02:47 bin/! -> interp
15:03:54 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> it was intended so that we could add esolangs to it ourselves instead of having to bother Gregor <-- the problem is that HackEgo never got all of EgoBot's features and what _was_ belatedly transfered of EgoBot's structure is hard to discover and modify and doesn't fit at all with the "linux system" basis.
15:06:31 <oerjan> @tell ais523 and the "linux system" part keeps getting new layers added as newbies don't know about the old ones.
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18:26:22 <zzo38> I have made the game which resemble the puzzle mode of the Panel de Pon game, although additionally there are blocks that cannot be matched, as well as in addition to switches you can also use erasers and rotators.
18:26:56 <Lithiumate> and now, writing it an befunge interpreter.
18:27:11 <zzo38> Lithiumate: What bot is that, what is module being written with, is there the information of it? OK you can please write some more!
18:28:29 <Lithiumate> and i will connect them to my bot for use of people
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18:32:57 <zzo38> Tsumeshogi! I play the game!
18:34:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Sinatra]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44115 * Hppavilion1 * (+113) /* To IRC! */ new section
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18:40:58 <izabera> what's all the fuzz about this virgo thing?
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18:41:44 <zzo38> I think there is information in wiki, you can look
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19:15:50 <fizzie> What was this about login problems?
19:33:52 <Lithiumate> i forgot the pass and i don't linked email
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20:10:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Piet-Q]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44116&oldid=32427 * SuperJedi224 * (-14) /* Commands */
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21:20:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44117&oldid=43910 * Rdebath * (+1977) It seemed a bit fragmented, try this.
21:23:51 <izabera> For Turing completeness either the number of cells must be unbounded or (at least) three unbounded cells are required, the former is usually assumed.
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21:24:12 <izabera> can you prove that less than 3 is not enough?
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21:46:51 <fowl> Can you prove that you can prove that you can prove that you can prove that?
21:48:56 <int-e> are we allowed to mix unbounded and bounded cells?
21:57:52 <int-e> because then two unbounded cells are enough
21:58:15 <izabera> a finite tape and two unbounded cells
21:58:38 <int-e> (two counters can simulate three counters)
21:58:58 <izabera> i'm not really familiar with this kind of proof at all
22:01:09 <int-e> with two counters and a scratch counter, you can simulate two stacks, hence a tape. You can encode counters a, b, c as 2^a*3^b*5^c, and use the scratch counter and a finite number of states to check whether one of a, b or c is 0, or increment a counter, or decrement a non-zeor counter.
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22:06:55 -!- hppavilion[1]_ has set topic: The fnord never fnords fnord in the fnord fnord | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
22:07:10 <fungot> hppavilion[1]_: k d i vil mistake me only cha.dnt talk?
22:07:42 <int-e> fungot: oh a mystery
22:07:42 <fungot> int-e: aiyo cos she will not get an allowance for the first month
22:07:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube
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22:08:23 <int-e> that's probably the worst of all those styles
22:08:45 <int-e> at least if you try to figure out what is actually being said :P
22:08:49 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
22:09:20 <fungot> izabera: great job. not some overrated movie with will ferrell called land of the scenes. i can't wait for the pilot if he dressed like that
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22:11:58 <shachaf> land of the scenes would be a good movie
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22:49:55 <oerjan> he's doing a pretty good job so far, i hear
22:52:24 <oerjan> shachaf: no, elizabeth. well i guess sonja too.
22:53:21 <shachaf> It's the future and Queen Elizabeth III and Queen Elizabeth IV are going to a party held by Queen Elizabeth V.
22:54:35 <oerjan> the future sounds dutch
22:55:52 <shachaf> The first couple of times I watched I didn't realize the age thing.
22:55:59 <shachaf> I guess I'm not used to queens.
22:56:38 <shachaf> "the age of Queen Elizabeth" is presumably an antitone function from naturals to naturals.
22:57:25 <oerjan> except for Queen Elizabeth VII the Time Traveler
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22:58:23 <izabera> someone should make a sitcom out of this
22:58:47 <oerjan> and sdrawkcaB ehT I- htebazilE neeuQ
22:59:33 <shachaf> also known as Queen Elizaaleph?
23:00:37 <oerjan> not necessarily, although suspiciously no one _has_ seen them at the same time...
23:06:33 <oerjan> <izabera> can you prove that less than 3 is not enough? <-- istr this keeps coming up. i vaguely think i thought the argument held last time...
23:07:01 <oerjan> if you have only 2 cells, then whenever you exit a loop, one of them must be 0.
23:07:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Timwi * moved [[CA (programming language)]] to [[CA-1]] over redirect
23:08:10 <oerjan> this means that if you start out with arbitrary values, then relatively soon _one_ of them can only have finitely many options
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23:08:42 <oerjan> this means you can refactor the brainfuck program as a 1-counter state machine
23:08:50 <oerjan> which is known not to be TC.
23:09:32 <oerjan> (relatively soon = as soon as you have exited a loop)
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23:10:36 <oerjan> hm except there are some loops like [>-<+] that do copying, so the finite number of options doesn't hold at _every_ later moment
23:11:10 <oerjan> * [>+<-] seems more likely
23:11:23 <int-e> but it should hold outside of innermost loops
23:11:52 <oerjan> something like that yeah
23:14:50 <oerjan> oh hm there's some issues like you can do multiplication by constants, and division _if_ the remainder is 0
23:15:10 <oerjan> (if not for the remainder 0 restriction that would be a TC machine)
23:16:03 <oerjan> hm there are too many possible loopholes for me to feel safe about this argument
23:16:14 <tswett> I'm thinking about the differences in how waves propagate depending on their frequency.
23:17:23 <tswett> I think the major thing is probably multipath interference.
23:18:08 <tswett> If the size of the obstacles is much smaller than the wavelength, the amount of multipath interference is going to be small, so low-frequency waves will effectively "wrap around" those obstacles pretty well.
23:18:58 <tswett> If the obstacles are much larger than the wavelength, now you probably will see a lot of multipath interference.
23:27:46 <tswett> Oh, that would be so awesome.
23:29:03 <tswett> A program just consists of, oh, a set of rectangles where you specify the characteristics of the medium there.
23:30:46 <tswett> I'm not sure exactly how you'd specify those characteristics.
23:31:04 <tswett> Guess you could start by saying that you can specify the impedance.
23:32:51 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_the_shape_of_a_drum
23:41:10 <oerjan> int-e: i wonder how that castle compares to castle heterodyne...
23:43:32 <oerjan> i guess "not as lethal" is a safe bet.
23:44:33 <oerjan> well at least unless the master _wants_ you dead
23:47:21 <mauris> <shachaf> also known as Queen Elizaaleph? <-- this is a good joke