00:02:44 <HackEgo> [U+01B7 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EZH]
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00:26:58 <oerjan> shachaf: is this about right http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32223859/whats-the-difference-between-a-lens-and-a-partial-lens/32238680#32238680
00:27:53 <shachaf> http://stackoverflow.com/a/32238680 is about right
00:28:31 <shachaf> I think "affine traversal" is the thing people usually mean by "partial lens".
00:28:54 <oerjan> yeah but they're not defined by lens
00:29:11 <shachaf> Oh, you talk about it later.
00:29:16 <oerjan> (evidence: lens does not depend on pointed)
00:29:34 <shachaf> What! lens doesn't depend on something?
00:29:42 <oerjan> strangely the opposite notion _is_ in lens (using Apply)
00:29:42 <oren> @tell izabera I'm not erik demaine, I'm Oren Watson
00:29:52 <edwardk> we don't bother with affine traversals as there aren't any extra combinators it gives us
00:29:56 <edwardk> just crippled ones of the ones we have
00:30:10 <shachaf> oerjan: Anyway, seems to make sense.
00:30:18 <oerjan> edwardk: you could make that a comment if you like
00:30:22 <shachaf> "we don't provide Maybe in the standard library because we already have lists"
00:30:32 <oerjan> except then i'd really feel like i was fishing for rep
00:31:52 <edwardk> shachaf: nah, just we already have (^?) and it is powerful enough to work on any of them
00:32:41 <shachaf> Sure, but foo :: AffineTraversal ... is more informative than foo :: Traversal ...
00:33:16 <shachaf> You can make the same analogy with lists.
00:34:07 <oerjan> now generalize that to categories
00:34:15 <oerjan> i guess profunctor fits in there
00:34:17 <shachaf> find :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
00:34:54 <shachaf> Er, find f = take 1 . filter f
00:35:16 <shachaf> oerjan: Pointed as a superclass of Applicative would be a bit of a scow, though.
00:35:26 <shachaf> oerjan: You'd need to add Default as a superclass of Monoid to really make it work.
00:36:30 <oerjan> shachaf: there are a lot of things that are scow because haskell isn't good at typeclass defaulting
00:39:24 <shachaf> oerjan: Also I'm not logged in so you don't need to worry about fishing for rep hth
00:40:01 <shachaf> oerjan: Anyway, the lens laws don't break when you have a lens to Maybe.
00:40:04 <shachaf> Unless you break them, I guess.
00:40:08 <shachaf> But at is a great and valid lens.
00:40:33 <oerjan> shachaf: i mean they break if you try to use it for the "nth element of list" case
00:41:15 <shachaf> I guess those are the things you say.
00:42:45 <shachaf> Does Scala have a library called lenz?
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01:20:51 <tswett> data Expression = ExpressionApply TermId [Expression]
01:21:04 <tswett> Yeah... that'll do it.
01:25:24 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/G932zYW.gif
01:25:37 <shachaf> that's how i'm imagining tswett right now
01:27:20 -!- tswett has changed nick to dipperswett.
01:28:22 <dipperswett> Dipper Swett is the name I'm using for Magic: the Gathering purposes.
01:34:01 <HackEgo> [U+30DF KATAKANA LETTER MI]
01:35:32 <coppro> http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2015082617gm-0029-0000-11467df8&tw=2&ts=1
01:36:29 <boily> chelloppro! another outrageousnessity?
01:37:38 <boily> coppro: you are a disgusting person :P
01:39:14 <coppro> boily: yes, collecting yakumans for the wiki
01:39:32 <oerjan> boily: er, should i click
01:40:54 <boily> mahjong. definitely mahjong. and coppro is channeling eldritch powers in order to torture the tiles to his bidding.
01:41:02 * oerjan clicked and got no wiser, anyway
01:42:04 <coppro> boily: no, that wasn't me
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01:43:54 <coppro> just a replay I found on the ykm page
01:44:09 <coppro> the only yakuman I've gotten is one runofthemill suuankou
01:48:59 <boily> one day I'll manage to get the gates. those are one elusive yakuman.
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01:53:46 <coppro> there was a junsei chuuren yesterday, and a regular one today
01:54:40 <coppro> http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2015082512gm-0009-0000-206be279&tw=2&ts=1 is disgusting
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03:04:35 <zzo38> I have once gotten renhou, but that's all (it was on a computer game where that rule is always enabled in the scenario being played)
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03:53:05 <coppro> zzo38: you should come to one of our mahjong clubs
03:54:25 <zzo38> What rule options/variants do you use? Do you have any automatic table? What time? Etc?
03:54:54 <coppro> my club currently plays mondays in Waterloo, boily's is Sundays in montreal
03:55:00 <coppro> (not every monday/sunday)
03:55:18 <coppro> our rules are here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RNeXCKS6JZU5fvDHfCP7jW8c2629nC5zRJBN2iWvjhE/edit?usp=drive_web
03:55:38 <zzo38> I don't live there anyways and do not intend to travel there any time soon.
03:55:47 <coppro> montreal's is http://riichi.ca/site/
03:56:24 <zzo38> (I live at British Columbia)
04:00:19 <Sgeo> Finally using free Internet access
04:11:21 <Sgeo> Internet access now costs me $0/month
04:13:37 <shachaf> now you can finally play prismata
04:15:30 <Sgeo> Wow, that's incredible! Because I couldn't before
04:15:40 <pikhq> shachaf: It is rather dangerous sitting next to mulrich at dinner when you don't say "no" forcefully enough.
04:15:40 <Sgeo> </failed-attempt-to-be-similar-to-an-old-joke)
04:16:01 <pikhq> Sorry, correction, mulrich and mattsie.
04:16:09 <shachaf> Spot of the sauzzle, governor?
04:16:31 <pikhq> Also, can confirm, gmail SRE still uses scow.
04:17:39 <pikhq> A wide beamed sailing dinghy.
04:17:53 <lambdabot> *** "scow" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
04:17:53 <lambdabot> n 1: any of various flat-bottomed boats with sloping ends
04:17:53 <lambdabot> 2: a barge carrying bulk materials in an open hold
04:18:07 <shachaf> that's the scow of definitions
04:18:40 <pikhq> The margaritas were not scow, however.
04:19:21 <shachaf> La Fiesta is great. They have grandma sauce.
04:19:37 <shachaf> Was it involved in the aforementioned sauzzle?
04:19:53 <pikhq> I had chile colorado.
04:20:37 <pikhq> Though it's somewhat humorous having your boss be involved in aforementioned sauzzle.
04:22:49 <pikhq> It's kinda funny that of all the places to end up at Google, I ended up in apps SRE.
04:24:22 <coppro> (I don't know why I'm laughing(
04:24:43 <pikhq> coppro: Just, everyone who's been there long enough knows shachaf.
04:25:04 <shachaf> What are they saying about me?
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04:25:31 <shachaf> Today fizzie dug up a list of go/ links mentioning me.
04:25:40 <pikhq> coppro: shachaf used to work with 'em is all.
04:26:00 <coppro> say hi to gavin for me
04:26:08 <coppro> (gavin doesn't work in your department, building, or possibly company)
04:27:05 <Sgeo> shachaf, you worked with Go?
04:29:02 <pikhq> I started learning Go.
04:29:20 <shachaf> Are you involved with [redacted]?
04:29:20 <Sgeo> I think I like Rust
04:29:58 <shachaf> A Go project used for -- deployments?
04:30:08 <shachaf> Or rollout automation or something.
04:30:44 <pikhq> I've done some CLs on stuff with it.
04:30:47 <pikhq> It's actually pretty neat.
04:31:20 <shachaf> Neater than the thing it replaces?
04:34:24 -!- Jafet has set topic: The channel where [REDACTED] | Sir Fungellot does not fnord. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
04:36:32 <pikhq> I don't know what it replaced.
04:39:43 <Sgeo> Will Go ever have generics or a sufficient replacement that doesn't lose static typing?
04:39:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: Fuck if I know.
04:39:56 <shachaf> Do you still have a certain push and rollback system?
04:40:20 <pikhq> I don't know, I'm just a simple SRE.
04:41:37 <coppro> shachaf: when did you work there?
04:44:09 <shachaf> How about a build web UI thing which is very fast?
04:44:54 <coppro> you could move to pm you know
04:45:04 <coppro> and actually say words :P
04:45:22 <pikhq> Welcome to Google, the place where words
04:46:06 <shachaf> People at Google most communicate using funny pictures with a few words on them.
04:46:57 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that's the official bug report tool now.
04:47:50 <coppro> I know, I've seen them
04:48:20 <coppro> I went to TGIF once, and a thing happened, and when I went back to my desk, a coworker was providing an accurate retelling of the story, entirely from pictures.
04:49:36 <izabera> https://gist.github.com/izabera/c1c664d542f8ef4f383c it's 6 am and i wrote this
04:52:30 <shachaf> pikhq: Has jamming come up?
04:52:50 <pikhq> I think so but I don't recall for sure.
04:54:46 <pikhq> You're asking six-margaritas pikhq.
04:55:34 <shachaf> I feel like this would be better in an unlogged channel.
04:56:44 <pikhq> HEY GOOGLE, I'M LEAKING PROPRIETARY INFORMATION ABOUT THE NEW [REDACTED] [REDACTED] FOR [REDACTED]!
04:57:09 <coppro> I worked at google prior to you two
04:57:12 <coppro> and have no idea what you're talking about
04:57:34 <pikhq> If it makes you feel better, *I* don't know what shachaf's referring to.
04:57:46 <shachaf> I'm not talking about the Google things.
04:58:10 <shachaf> pikhq: If it makes you feel better, you aren't the most sauzzled individual here.
04:58:38 <shachaf> By "here" I mean "among the people at La Fiesta".
04:58:52 <pikhq> I sat next to mulrich.
04:59:07 <pikhq> Or do you mean you're at La Fiesta right now?
04:59:33 <shachaf> I mean that someone is sending sauzzled messages, is all.
04:59:51 <pikhq> Are they humorous?
05:03:18 <pikhq> As did Noggles, though I don't recall too well how.
05:07:07 <hppavilion[1]> You know how Wikipedia has "Introduction to..." articles?
05:13:52 <shachaf> I think maybe it might be better not to do it at all.
05:14:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Introduction to Esolang Design]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43923 * Hppavilion1 * (+359) Created Page
05:15:13 <shachaf> pikhq: I'm told that you chetted about me.
05:15:23 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking that if we slowly pool knowledge on what makes a good Esolang, we'll eventually get more gems like Befunge and Unlambda
05:15:26 <pikhq> An event reminded me of you.
05:15:56 <pikhq> Something to do with drinking and you getting drunk without drinking.
05:16:22 <shachaf> By the way, it's spelled "Naugles".
05:16:35 <shachaf> "au" is very popular for some reason.
05:17:05 <shachaf> http://www.ocmexfood.com/images/naugles.jpg
05:17:10 <pikhq> Anywho, I'm going to go collapse in a bed.
05:17:20 <shachaf> Give me the details of the chets.
05:17:59 <hppavilion[1]> Guys, how would you describe a Truly Brilliant Esolang
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05:21:01 <mauris> opinions probably vary but i like esolangs that either (a) introduce a way of programming that's totally dissimilar to other existing languages, and (b) is at least reasonably powerful, but not trivially so
05:21:10 <zzo38> If it does, then yes I suppose it may be
05:21:34 <zzo38> Although yes opinions can vary, and they can even vary despite opinions, so is good you can have many kind
05:28:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Introduction to Esolang Design]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43924&oldid=43923 * Hppavilion1 * (+1418) Extended the article
05:30:44 <hppavilion[1]> I think we need to design an Interrogative Language
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05:42:57 <Sgeo> What does Braintrust count as?
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06:04:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[€]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43925&oldid=43457 * Oerjan * (+80) fmt, section/link case
06:21:45 <oerjan> i find calamari's claim of having fixed his site slightly dubious tdnh
06:30:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43926&oldid=43911 * Oerjan * (-282) /* Hodor */ It's not a real Hello world, and it doesn't have a page.
06:34:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43927&oldid=43675 * Oerjan * (+3) link, typo
06:37:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wire-crossing problem]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43928&oldid=43478 * Oerjan * (+51) unsigned
06:40:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Useless]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43929&oldid=43480 * Oerjan * (+26) /* External resources */ describe link more
06:40:28 <zzo38> What does "Interrogative Language" mean?
06:42:58 <mauris> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Passalambida <-- this is spam but wikis are really bad so i can't delete or flag it hth?
06:43:01 <zzo38> Can you put my Robotfindskitten implementation on the list with the rest of them? (Mainly I did it as an example of a program for the VM)
06:43:41 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I have no clue what an interrogative Language is, that's what we have to make up
06:43:43 <zzo38> You can blank the page, and you may be able to add a template or category to flag it
06:43:59 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: O, OK, once we can learn what it is (by making it up), then it can be done.
06:44:12 <mauris> yes, i was wondering if there's a template that marks pages for deletion
06:44:26 <zzo38> I don't know if esolang wiki has any such template
06:45:32 <hppavilion[1]> Make a weird mishmash of Lambda Calculus, Combinatorics, and Formal Logic
06:45:50 <zzo38> (I made a Minesweeper implementation for the same VM, too; also Munching Squares)
06:46:14 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Ah, OK, if you can figure out how, but also look to see if there are things close to it already on there, in some kind of ways.
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06:47:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43930&oldid=43571 * Oerjan * (+16) links, section case
06:48:17 <zzo38> And, if you do not understand Unlambda, then you should learn.
06:50:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Passalambida]]": Spam: Well, mauris said it so it has to be true (others may just call it CRAP)
06:52:01 <oerjan> to make an interrogative language, we must first answer the question "what is an interrogative language" hth
06:52:02 <mauris> https://esolangs.org/wiki/ThisIsNotARealLanguage <-- this i can't tell if it's CRAP or a beautiful piece of modern performance art...
06:53:06 <zzo38> Neither; it is a joke, but still is not quite written good enough (therefore, it might be consider as a stub)
06:54:52 <oerjan> mauris: welcome to the world of Maxsteele2.
06:55:12 <oerjan> see also: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mugh_brains
06:55:46 <mauris> yeah, all of their languages are of questionable quality??
06:56:07 <oerjan> we're not big on quality control
06:57:21 <mauris> i've noticed before. that's probably good! ~embrace the crap~
06:57:31 <ashl> questionable quality
06:59:18 <oerjan> i do, however, have a slowly lapsing habit of looking through everything in Recent Changes. recently i've had to edit the url by hand because the link options don't go more than 30 days back.
07:00:24 <shachaf> oerjan: what's with the olist delay
07:00:47 <oerjan> shachaf: well ending the world needs to be done with care, naturally
07:01:35 * oerjan now wonders what an accusative language would look like. but not too deeply.
07:02:14 <ashl> an accusative language?
07:03:32 <oerjan> ashl: how dare you even mention the concept!
07:04:38 <zzo38> I suppose "Gentzen" esolang has somewhat to do with formal logic; there may be others too but which seem to be less so as far as I can see (I may be wrong though)
07:04:51 <oerjan> example: Clearly this program is too badly written to print "Hello, World!"
07:05:36 <oerjan> (you achieve things through sufficient shaming)
07:06:05 <oerjan> also, i'm procrastinating food again ->
07:06:23 <ashl> so an accusatory language
07:09:23 <ashl> i don't really know
07:11:36 <oerjan> mmm, Almost Fresh Bread
07:12:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the case normally used for direct objects in nominative-accusative languages hth
07:13:14 <oerjan> (e.g. latin, greek, german, russian)
07:13:18 <zzo38> I also wanted to invent a variant of Gentzen esolang that is using linear logic (possibly, called "Girard"), but I do not quite know how, even though I can know what rules are used with linear logic.
07:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know much about foriegn languages or linguistics
07:14:00 <oerjan> also hungarian, while finnish has some weird "3 different ways of putting case on objects" thing
07:15:30 <oerjan> and ergative languages have a different common system
07:15:40 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, accusative is just the word "et" in hebrew?
07:15:53 <ashl> but how can a language be accusative
07:16:10 <shachaf> oh, "et" is only for definite nouns
07:16:17 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nota_accusativi
07:16:35 <oerjan> shachaf: hm not sure if hebrew has case, i think arabic does
07:17:15 <oerjan> there are of course many languages that don't use cases at all, or only relics
07:17:26 <shachaf> hebrew doesn't even have uppercase and lowercase
07:17:42 <oerjan> e.g. he vs. him is nominative vs. accusative, but english only has it for pronouns.
07:21:08 <ashl> or do you mean 'nominative-accusative language' by 'accusative language'
07:22:33 <oerjan> ashl: um i was making a pun on "accuse" and the mention of "interrogative language". i take it you're new here?
07:22:46 <zzo38> I have recently had problems to connect to EFnet IRC servers; is there EFnet proxy that can be use to avoid a problem like that?
07:23:05 <oerjan> when in doubt, assume pun. right shachaf?
07:23:17 <ashl> i missed the thing about interrogative languages
07:23:39 <oerjan> that would be confusing
07:23:47 <shachaf> That used to be true, but these days there's no feedback.
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07:24:07 <ashl> i also had ergative-absolutive alignment on my mind for some reason
07:25:38 <shachaf> all i'm saying is, people used to be rewarded for their puns
07:26:05 * oerjan drops the Holy Anvil on shachaf
07:26:14 <oerjan> i'm afraid i don't know how to draw it
07:26:34 <b_jonas> `<oerjan> also hungarian, while finnish has some weird "3 different ways of putting case on objects" thing' -- well, Hungarian also has like three or four ways to put a case onto an object, I think
07:26:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: <oerjan>: not found
07:26:46 <oerjan> b_jonas: a direct object?
07:27:00 <shachaf> "et" is used for direct objects, I think.
07:27:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, cases in general
07:27:26 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure -t is the accusative ending in hungarian
07:27:34 <shachaf> Now I'm confused about what this word does.
07:27:45 <oerjan> with appropriate harmonic vowel inserted
07:27:48 <shachaf> What are some other languages that only have a definite article?
07:27:54 <shachaf> Or alternatively only have an indefinite article.
07:28:34 <oerjan> i don't know if there are any that only have indefinite
07:29:03 <shachaf> And it even attaches the definite article to the word, like Hebrew.
07:29:30 <b_jonas> the methods are: (1) suffix the noun (for common cases), (2) add a preposition before it (for some uncommon cases), (3) add a preposition AND a case suffix (very rare), and (4) for personal pronouns in some cases, add a possessive suffix to a base word made of what would normally be a preposition or suffix.
07:29:46 <b_jonas> For objects, only (1) and (4) come up.
07:30:20 <b_jonas> `<shachaf> What are some other languages that only have a definite article?' -- espernato
07:30:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: <shachaf>: not found
07:33:12 <oerjan> also, does "engem" fit any of those
07:34:45 <ashl> what's a rajta-
07:35:21 <oerjan> ashl: a hungarian prefix meaning roughly "on", but which is only used with pronoun endings
07:35:28 <oerjan> (well, that i've learn of)
07:36:01 <oerjan> the _normal_ way of saying "on" is with the -en/on suffix on a noun
07:38:17 <oerjan> so that's a case where those are particularly different
07:39:09 <oerjan> "in", meanwhile, is benn- vs. -ben/ban iirc, so the same system but with similar morphemes
07:39:56 <ashl> i don't know any highly caseful languages
07:41:47 <ashl> i am mildly curious about finnish and hungarian but it doesn't seem like it would be easy to sample them
07:42:48 <oerjan> there are plenty of finns on irc, at least
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07:45:54 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> i don't know if there are any that only have indefinite" -- http://wals.info/chapter/37 says there are some
07:47:19 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://wals.info/feature/37A#2/25.5/148.4 for the list
07:49:32 <oerjan> ooh i've been wanting such a map
07:49:48 <oerjan> clearly articles are more widespread than i thought
07:51:01 <oerjan> huh cantonese and japanese?
07:51:49 <ashl> since when does japanese have an indefinite article
07:51:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: you don't have to always trust wals. it does have some errors.
07:52:19 <oerjan> b_jonas: um that makes it rather hard for me to judge :P
07:53:16 <b_jonas> oerjan: in particular, http://blog.wals.info/datapoint-37a-wals_code_jpn/#comment has a comment by a third party that Japanese does not have an indefinite article
07:53:18 <oerjan> and thai. some rather big languages in that list.
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07:56:22 <oerjan> no comments for the others i mentioned
08:04:19 <oerjan> "Languages with an indefinite article but no definite article are common in an area in Asia stretching from Turkey to India."
08:04:40 <oerjan> i guess turkish and persian at least are genuine, then
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08:15:19 <b_jonas> oren: um, how do you know? just because there's no comment doesn't mean anything.
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08:45:58 <mauris> b_jonas: just because there is a comment doesn't mean anything, either
08:50:51 <mauris> i've investigated the turkish claim slightly and according to wikipedia and some shady web tutorials it seems to check out! "works for me"
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08:55:36 <b_jonas> nice blog entry: http://jacquesmattheij.com/aol-20 "We're heading Straight for AOL 2.0"
08:56:59 <Taneb> Does anyone know of any roguelike with co-operative multiplayer?
08:59:07 <b_jonas> Taneb: try to ask on #nethack or some other channel connected more directly to roguelikes
08:59:40 <myname> what does mangband do with multiplayer?
08:59:51 <Taneb> It feels cheating to ask in #nethack when I don't particularly enjoy Nethack
09:00:20 <myname> innother cases: write one
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09:01:01 <myname> i do think it's pretty hard to do this at least on a turn based system
09:01:28 <Taneb> It could be unfun to have to wait for everyone
09:01:42 <Taneb> But if you're all in physical proximity, or at least can talk to each other
09:03:11 <b_jonas> myname: indeed, the problem is that roguelikes have very fast paced turns and no real-life timeouts
09:04:08 <myname> you could make independent turns for each player, but what do you do with npcs?
09:04:22 <b_jonas> maybe you'd need a keyboard simlar to those of old telegraph machines, where it could physically lock keys so that you can't press them and you can feel that with your finger, and make it lock most keys when it's not your turn
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09:04:57 <b_jonas> Taneb: is there a roguelike that you do enjoy?
09:05:06 <b_jonas> maybe ask them instead of #nethack then
09:05:33 <myname> i do think cataclysm would be fun to multiplay
09:06:14 <Taneb> b_jonas, I quite like Brogue (although I am not good at it) and Pokemon Mystery Dungeon
09:06:23 <Taneb> Although I only really played the first PMDs
09:07:36 <myname> the cataclysm setting just asks for multiplayer
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09:40:02 <HackEgo> baldcoin combcoin colfuccoin unsuitcoin rumcoin outcoin invilcoin pavitacoin nhohnercoin itfaonaillccoin codifyingcoin jottoncoin voenighedcoin minecoin neboolcoin otticoin colacoin magecoin booncoin rfpentcoin
09:40:59 <b_jonas> hmm, colacoin sounds tasty
09:41:06 <HackEgo> ephoracoin tanzcoin vococoin parnasscoin stufecoin muiratefcoin ptercoin syphintcoin urateflincoin falcoin aaterictopadythconveyongwortedcoin rincoin camoicoin sarztcoin dancoin evucoin unshakespringinworcoin carfourcoin memfucicoin bullfcoin
09:41:37 <Taneb> aaterictopadythconveyongwortedcoin is nice also
09:41:51 <Taneb> Why did I type that rather than copy/pasting it?
09:42:05 <b_jonas> unshakespringinworcoin, nice
09:42:25 <b_jonas> but carfourcoin seems like misspelt.
09:44:06 <b_jonas> "memfucicoin" -- hmm, "memfuci" sounds like the name of an esolang
09:46:02 <myname> aaterictopadythconveyongwort also sounds like an esolang
09:46:33 <Taneb> realfastnorashairsalonthreesheardisasterdownloadcoin
09:48:01 <b_jonas> there's actually a "memfuck", maybe "memfuci" is a typo for it
09:48:24 <myname> of course there is memfuck
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10:55:50 <fizzie> `` cat bin/coins # <- not really a surprise they sound like esolangs
10:55:50 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
10:56:24 <HackEgo> upoliyhtymiksencoin päältäcoin säännecoin ymmecoin seuraastaviltannecoin turmemmaksennecoin varsoviksicoin varpastasicoin silleencoin hehkeikkaavalscoin
10:56:42 <fizzie> Local currencies for the global age.
10:57:57 <fizzie> "päältä", "säänne" and "silleen" in the above are all real Finnish words.
10:58:18 <fizzie> "varpastasi" is close -- "varpaastasi" would be.
11:05:53 <boily> fizziello. what do they mean?
11:06:00 <boily> `coins --french 10
11:06:04 <HackEgo> fratorcoin érullinécoin demmecoin checoin raatricumcoin thescoin caloréemencoin vesignediicoin appecoin leptocoin
11:06:23 <boily> `coins --french 10
11:06:24 <HackEgo> ingtcoin dénacoin avimentecoin témorptcoin aisiocoin mandervettacoin gélaiscoin dencoin quegoloncoin déprepuricoin
11:06:35 <HackEgo> seldhügelechtcoin vernernowcoin übergängecoin eligungcoin mehrlinshineascoin ausecoin erzmuscoin stoffiziehungcoin schraetncoin honencoin
11:06:52 <boily> nothing even remotely French in those :(
11:07:06 <myname> one correct german one
11:07:12 <boily> `coins --french 10
11:07:14 <HackEgo> paluscoin polygrosocoin hypochcoin hohecoin pothiérocoin uteuressamcoin oelliercutacoin offrantcoin confircoin sujacoin
11:07:39 <boily> ah! «offrant» is good.
11:07:52 <boily> mynamello. don't ask me which one is correct; it's all German to me.
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11:10:03 <boily> `words --japanese 1
11:10:13 <boily> `words --spanish 1
11:10:23 <boily> `coins --spanish 10
11:10:24 <HackEgo> enparaclcoin litescoin roncoin cnbrinamilcoin dianacoin efeccuriéncoin puntancoin ansilengolcoin strólocoin mediososcoin
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11:22:18 <fizzie> @tell boily päältä 'from on top' (ablative case of päällä 'on top of something', or 'on' as in "the radio is on")
11:22:23 <fizzie> @tell boily säänne 'your (pl.) weather' (second-person plural possessive of sää 'weather')
11:22:29 <fizzie> @tell boily silleen -- a colloquialism that's rather hard to translate without resorting to just listing a bunch of example uses.
11:22:37 <fizzie> @tell boily varpaastasi 'from your toe' (elative case of the second-person singular possessive of varvas 'toe')
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13:01:33 <b_jonas> Argh, I keep for getting this. Hat is a special character interpreted by the windows shell, so it must be quoted.
13:04:01 <ais523> quoting on Windows cmd is utterly bizarre
13:06:26 <b_jonas> sometimes you just have to ('"' . join('" "', map s/(\x5c*("|\z))/\Q$1/gr, @command) . '"')
13:06:50 <b_jonas> sometimes you have to do the same but prepend a second '"' at the beginning
13:07:15 <b_jonas> sometimes the arguments contain a percent sign or somethign and then youre' completely screwed because there's no way to quote a percent sign at all
13:07:33 <b_jonas> and if the argument contain a newline, you're screwed too
13:08:33 <b_jonas> The s/(\x5c*("|\z))/\Q$1/gr part is definitely serious though, that's the _only_ valid way to quote backspaces and double quotes inside a double-quoted string in the shell.
13:09:36 <b_jonas> you must not double backspaces anywhere else than what that regex says.
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13:24:21 <ais523> \x5c is a backslash, right? why not just write \\?
13:24:41 <ais523> wait, no, slightly too low to be a backlash? or, hmm
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13:56:25 <int-e> oh well at least it's consistent
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14:44:47 <HackEgo> pegarlacoin pñntecoin plancoin roncoin gianocoin bonadolacoin dwelladocoin obesscoin sepaiscoin hocoin hidcoin brostcoin pensiscoin creecoin empeñcoin
14:48:51 <dipperswett> "Pegarla" is a real Spanish word ("to hit her/it (feminine)"). "Pñnte" doesn't come close to being valid.
14:49:08 <ais523> dipperswett: I think it just uses statistics about the language, and then tries to produce words that are statistically the same
14:49:23 <ais523> to do with letter frequency and letter pair frequency, possibly even triplets
14:49:28 <ais523> then it puts "coin" on the end
14:49:56 <dipperswett> I can't imagine "pñ" is a common digraph in Spanish at all.
14:50:16 <dipperswett> I would expect that "ñn" occurs in no words whatsoever.
14:50:16 <ais523> presumably it's has a nonzero occurrence rate, though
14:50:26 <ais523> imagine if the letters are in two separate syllables
14:50:48 <ais523> and it's not like "ñn" is unpronounceable
14:51:02 <dipperswett> ñ almost always occurs between two vowels, I think.
14:52:24 <dipperswett> http://www.listapalabras.com/en/palabras-con.php lists no words containing pñ or ñn.
14:53:50 <zzo38> I have just finished a game of Minesweeper but I almost won, but not quite because at the end only two more cells remained and I picked the wrong one by mistake. But I am slow at it and it took 1378 seconds (this implementation imposes a time limit of 10000 seconds). Using the scoring system I made up I scored 572 points (out of 575).
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14:57:34 <zzo38> Screenshot is at http://zzo38computer.org/img_18/mines.png
15:01:23 <zzo38> Quoting on Windows cmd.exe is more strange than in UNIX and can cause problems, as noted above, yes. But I think if you have a percentage sign you can use %% to do isn't it? I thought it it is how it is work anyways
15:01:48 <fizzie> I don't like the variants of Minesweeper that sometimes require you to guess.
15:02:23 <fizzie> izabera: Not the one in Sergeant T. Atham's puzzle collection.
15:02:43 <fizzie> izabera: It can, if you untick a flag, but by default it only makes puzzles that are deducable from the initial click.
15:03:20 <fizzie> It also allows undo, so...
15:03:33 <fizzie> (Although it does keep track of a death count that isn't decreased by undo.)
15:03:50 <zzo38> The standard ones do anyways, but I have read about "Lucksweeper" in which any guess which you can not possibly have any idea it is wrong, if you step on such a cell, it will move a bomb if that cell contains a bomb so that it won't be explosive.
15:04:11 <fizzie> Personally, I don't consider the "avoid guesses" part to be cheating. It's pure luck.
15:05:14 <zzo38> fizzie: If it does not reveal all of the bombs when you lose then that could be a kind of variant (but you don't need to implement undo, just mark the bomb there and increment the death counter, and then you can continue)
15:06:13 <fizzie> It does not reveal the mines on death.
15:07:06 <fizzie> And I guess it could "auto-undo" on death like that. I think it probably has undo/redo because that's a standard piece of user interface for the puzzles in the collection.
15:07:57 <fizzie> I wonder if there are any versions where you can die on the first square you open. That seems to be something that's pretty universally avoided.
15:08:32 <coppro> minesweeper usually requires guesses
15:08:48 <coppro> even if you don't count the initial move
15:09:02 <zzo38> fizzie: My own version you can die on the first square you open, because I have not made it to avoid that (although I could have done, but find it unnecessary)
15:09:08 <fizzie> In the sgtatham sweeper, you may still end up with mines that can't be deduced directly from the labels of the squares, if you can deduce it from the number of remaining mines.
15:09:35 <zzo38> I know that can be possible too
15:12:35 <zzo38> There is also the paper variant (also called "star map", although in the book I first saw it in it is called "minesweeper")
15:17:12 <zzo38> I have also seen a variant where it is possible for a cell to contain more than one bomb
15:18:26 <b_jonas> coppro: sure, the second move often has to be a guess
15:19:57 <b_jonas> In the simple minesweeper version I made for the very powerless Sharp EL-5120 calculator, you can die in first turn.
15:20:29 <b_jonas> There's also no map shown, you just type coordinates and draw the map on paper; and the neigbours of revealed zero cells aren't automatically revealed, you have to do it by hadn.
15:21:31 <b_jonas> It's also easy to cheat, because the high-level programming language of that calculator makes it impossible to read input without allowing the user to reveal the value of any variable easily with three to five keystrokes.
15:22:25 <b_jonas> (When prompted to input, press 2ndF, RCL, then the letter of the variable, and the value is shown.
15:23:02 <b_jonas> I guess technically that reveals only the first ten digits out of the twelve, so in theory the program could hide some information in the two guard digits,
15:23:05 <ais523> what size was the grid?
15:23:10 <zzo38> So it clearly is not as powerful as Texas Instruments programmable calculators, where there are other ways to request input as well
15:23:36 <b_jonas> but that would be very impractical due to the stupid inconsistent and slow arithmetic, too few variables, limited memory, etc.
15:24:46 <b_jonas> ais523: um, iirc 8x8 or 8x16 or something. I'm not sure. I think it would be possible to do 16x16 but then I'd never finish a game with that interface.
15:25:00 <b_jonas> I mean, possible to do 16x16 with some changes to the program.
15:26:35 <b_jonas> ais523: I also made a maze game, with a 8x8 (iirc) square grid, toroidal I think, with horizontal and vertical walls between the squares.
15:27:27 <b_jonas> The interface is such that the program prints the walls or non-walls immediately surrounding you, then inputs a direction to move out of the four, in a loop, and it detects win if you reach the goal cell.
15:27:43 <b_jonas> No wait, not toroidal, only cylindrical, because that's the easiest to implement.
15:28:23 <Hoolootwo> what kind of programming does it have?
15:28:42 <Hoolootwo> I haven't really worked with Sharps much
15:28:55 <zzo38> In TI-92 there are many ways to request input, including: * Arguments to the program * Prompt for an expression on the I/O screen, store the result into a variable * Ask the user to select a point on the graph screen * Display a popup menu * Display a menu bar * Display a dialog box * Inside of a busy loop you can check which buttons are pushed (although there are no timing functions)
15:29:44 <Hoolootwo> yeah, TI has generally pretty good input routines
15:29:48 <b_jonas> Hoolootwo: a high-level language with powerful natural arithmetic syntax, but not much in regards to statements. you have 27 numerical variables you can use (plus a couple of extra with limitations), no array indexing.
15:29:56 <Hoolootwo> and you can make your own with getkey and such
15:30:23 <b_jonas> Hoolootwo: the numbers are 12 decimal digits with exponent between -99 to 99, the arithmetic on them is quirky and slow.
15:30:55 <Hoolootwo> that sounds really hard to actually use for anything useful
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15:31:22 <b_jonas> There's a 3 line text display, you can print only constant strings with newline after them with the character set, or the value of a variable with the name of the variable in the previous line, and both of these are very slow.
15:32:05 <b_jonas> Control flow is goto, if-arithmetic-comparison-goto, gosub, return, and restart program, but there's a strict limit of 20 labels per program.
15:32:33 <Hoolootwo> at least it's better than being keystroke-programmable
15:32:54 <b_jonas> Assignments and control flow and such things are very fast, compared to even simple arithmetic, probably because it has a slow cpu (6502-based or z80-based or something) that doesn't do proper arithemtic.
15:33:46 <b_jonas> The whole calculator has exactly 2k RAM, of which about 1K is for fixed purposes, very tightly all used up, and about 1K (I don't recall the exact number now) stores arbitrary programs.
15:34:27 <Hoolootwo> well many of the TI-8x series are also z80, so that's not really a good excuse
15:34:33 <b_jonas> In programs, all keywords and builtin functions and stuff are stored as a single byte (but displayed often as up to six character cells on screen), and each line has an overhead of exactly three bytes, with no other overhead.
15:34:41 <Hoolootwo> but yeah, that's not a whole lot of mem
15:35:23 <Hoolootwo> I guess the speed of the language has to do with how it's designed too I suppose.
15:35:58 <b_jonas> As a result, the best way to store an array is a loop of a cyclical shift of variables, that is, you write a body like A=B;B=C;C=D;D=E;E=F;F=G;G=H;H=I;I=A (with each assignment in a new line), track the shift index, and repeat it enough time to get the index you want.
15:36:20 <b_jonas> Most of my more complicated programs has a shift register of eight variables like that.
15:36:55 <b_jonas> Yes, it's good because it doesn't cost too many labels or too much program space, and executes relatively fast.
15:37:36 <b_jonas> You can also use numbers as arrays of digits or bits, which is how I store rows in minesweeper or the maze,
15:38:15 <b_jonas> but you have to be careful because the arithmetic is strange so it's easy to get incorrect results. In particular, if you subtract two numbers such that the first ten digits are equal, the result is zero, the last two digits are discarded.
15:38:19 <Hoolootwo> yep, that's a pretty common trick on the TIs to get more out of each variable
15:39:05 <b_jonas> There's some details you have to learn about how to write the programs shorter, because every character can matter.
15:40:23 <b_jonas> You have to abuse precedence, especially because there's a somewhat rich set of arithmetic operations so you can write many things in multiple syntaxes; you can omit parenthesis at the beginning and end of expressions; omit 0 on the rhs of the assignment, or on any side of an equals comparison, but not in a less-than comparison for some reason.
15:40:39 <b_jonas> But you know what the most wonderful part of this calculator is?
15:40:53 <zzo38> On TI-92 though you can have variable names as long as eight letters and you can have lists and matrices and strings
15:41:28 <b_jonas> That its implementation seems very solid, with almost no bugs. I've experimented a lot with it, and have never managed to crash it or corrupt it or otherwise make it behave strangely,
15:41:43 <b_jonas> except when the battery is low so it doesn't have enough power to think.
15:42:38 <b_jonas> During all the years, I've found only about two insignificant bugs in it, two of them about some input being accepted and doing something useless when it should be rejected.
15:43:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, the Sharp EL-5120 is from the early days when programmable calculators were rarer and primitive. I went to a VERY geeky high school class, and mine was only the third programmable calculator in it.
15:43:47 <b_jonas> (The other two before it were higher-end models knowing more.)
15:44:23 <b_jonas> I know that programmable calculators a few days after that are much more powerful, with hundreds of kilobytes of memory and the abilty to upload programs written in machine code and stuff.
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15:44:50 <b_jonas> But at that time, we had to do those things on the personal computers, rather than programmable calculators or mobile phones.
15:46:51 <b_jonas> Yes, the TI-92 has 64 kilobytes of memory, a graphical display, and powerful built-in programming language. In those it's like the popular calculators of its age, except that it has a qwerty keyboard. I've seen one live for a while.
15:48:07 <zzo38> The programm language is TI-92 is slow though, but there are things that can be done to make it faster (what I have done to speed up shuffling a deck of cards more resembles the "ORDER BY RANDOM" of SQL; due to the way the parsing works this turns out to be faster than the other way.
15:48:21 <b_jonas> But I've met the similar non-qwerty TIs more. I've also seen HPs and Casios, but none of them have I delved so deeply as into that Sharp I own.
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16:31:01 <fizzie> TI-86 has 128K of memory, which is pretty huge.
16:31:06 <fizzie> 64K of address space, though.
16:32:56 <fizzie> It has an "MMU", if you can call it that -- 0000..3fff and c000..ffff are fixed (RAM and ROM pages, respectively), but you can map individual RAM/ROM banks into the 4000..7fff and 8000..bfff blocks.
16:34:46 <fizzie> The "TI-Basic" language it supports is the same (or at least very similar) as in the '92, AIUI.
16:35:35 <fizzie> And real slow, partly because all variables are 10-byte BCD floats it deals with in software.
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16:37:47 <fizzie> I believe it would do an increment-by-one loop using the generic softfloat addition, that has to muck around with exponents and all that.
16:39:02 <fizzie> (Good way to waste all those 6 MHz of raw power.)
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16:56:57 <ais523> `welcome LewisMCYoutube
16:56:59 <HackEgo> LewisMCYoutube: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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17:01:03 <ashl> LewisMCYoutube, we hardly knew ye
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17:26:07 <dipperswett> Determining whether or not a given Minesweeper grid is consistent sounds like the sort of thing that would be NP-complete.
17:28:16 <ais523> dipperswett: it is, that's already been proven
17:49:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43931&oldid=43513 * 216.138.225.130 * (+78)
18:01:11 <Taneb> What does consistent mean in this context?
18:01:29 <ais523> Taneb: that there's some way to place mines on it such that all the observed numbers are accurate
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18:32:18 <hppavilion[1]> We have Functional languages based on Lambda Calculus, but not geometry
18:42:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43932 * Martin Büttner * (+9984) Created page with "'''Labyrinth''' is a two-dimensional programming language developed by [[User:MartinBüttner|Martin Büttner]]. The source code resembles a maze which is traversed by the inst..."
18:43:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43933&oldid=43909 * Martin Büttner * (+16) /* L */
18:44:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43934&oldid=43932 * Hppavilion1 * (-16) Brought username inline with the standards of this wiki
18:44:32 <myname> labyrinth sounds promising
18:46:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43935&oldid=43926 * Martin Büttner * (+126)
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18:50:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43936&oldid=43934 * Martin Büttner * (+1) fix user name
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18:53:08 <hppavilion[1]> What would be a good name for a geometry-based declarative Esolang?
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18:54:41 <hppavilion[1]> But not Boolean Arithmetic, Boolean Geometry, or Boolean Calculus
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19:02:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Martin Büttner]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43937 * Martin Büttner * (+549) Created page with "I have so far created two esolangs: * [[Retina]], designed in 2015, a regex-based language, designed for use in code-[[Golf|golfing]]. * [[Labyrinth]], designed in 2015, a tw..."
19:03:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43938&oldid=43936 * Martin Büttner * (+12)
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19:05:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43939&oldid=43797 * Martin Büttner * (-33)
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19:08:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43940&oldid=43938 * Martin Büttner * (+120) add link to related language Mice in a maze
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19:19:05 <Typical_Username> so i saw discussion about "what is the simpliest progamming language"
19:19:39 <ais523> "simplest" is hard to define
19:19:55 <myname> we have languages with only one command
19:19:59 <ais523> but some reasonable candidates include Iota, Bitwise Cyclic Tag, and the various 1L languages, depending on what your definition is
19:20:13 <ais523> although I might be biased on that one
19:20:28 <ais523> BF is definitely not the simplest
19:20:36 <ais523> because there are cut-down versions of it that are simpler and still TC
19:20:46 <ais523> coppro: ooh, fractran is another reasonable claim, I think
19:21:08 <ais523> Typical_Username: oh, yes, if you don't care about TC or usable, there's a language that does nothing, more than one I think
19:21:12 <ais523> Unnecessary is probably my favourite
19:21:26 <ais523> you could also use 2014 for the purpose nowadays
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20:29:17 <izabera> is there any font in which the dot in ; is lower than - ?
20:30:36 <fizzie> That's like asking if there are any faces where the nose is higher than the eyes.
20:31:01 <izabera> it's exactly what i'm asking
20:31:26 <izabera> the actual question was: does this face ;-; render correctly in all fonts?
20:32:30 <zzo38> What is the proper way to render? In this "fixed" font, the top dot of the semicolon is higher than the line making up the minus sign
20:34:34 <ashl> it's a shame esolangs.org's featured language thingy isn't more active
20:35:06 <zzo38> I suggest to get rid of that feature
20:35:26 <zzo38> (But keep the page for historical study, with a note)
20:36:35 <ashl> it's hard to distinguish interesting languages from non-interesting languages :P
20:37:04 <zzo38> Yes, and there are other problems too (including opinions, and other decisions about it)
20:38:14 <ashl> maybe _someone_ thinks fuckfuck or maxsteele2's languages are interesting
20:45:28 <mauris_> what ais523 said made me think:
20:46:13 <mauris_> you could make an esolang where every program must satisfy some constraint of which the satisfiability is a (very difficult) open problem
20:46:39 <mauris_> but, for extra irony, say, functions as a NOP
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20:57:05 <ashl> oren keeps talking about a font they're making
21:02:45 <izabera> did you try imveryevil.org ?
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21:06:39 <izabera> not even sure why i google these things
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21:12:13 <ashl> izabera: what did you google?
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21:20:32 <zzo38> I made up a new Dungeons&Dragons character for a campaign which is including some other players too, so that we can play that one when they are here and the other one when they aren't; however these two scenarios are in the same timeline/storyline so they can interfere with each other (perhaps some of the things that happen, bad people organization, etc are having to do with each other so it adds more to examine), although currently my two character
21:21:08 <zzo38> This new one is starting at character level 3, and we are starting with money and equipment unlike the other where we started with absolutely no possessions at all.
21:22:17 <shachaf> Do you know how to pronounce this character's name?
21:23:36 <zzo38> Yes it is much easier. (Actually I can kind of pronounce my other character's name too)
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21:25:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: is it only the character made, or has he already had some roleplayed adventures as a PC?
21:26:49 <zzo38> Only the character is made up (including equipment, skills, etc)
21:27:01 <zzo38> The game is not in play quite yet.
21:27:50 <zzo38> (If the other players do not create their characters in time, I will be playing the other game until they do and when they are available.)
21:28:31 <b_jonas> "Do you know how to pronounce this character's name?" => http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=178
21:28:34 <zzo38> b_jonas: He is a anthropomorphic-bat generic-caster
21:29:22 <zzo38> I think that one isn't about the character's name? They want to learn "I give up"
21:30:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is a class with more customization but less class features (and a few less spells per day) then normal casters, from the book of generic classes
21:30:16 <b_jonas> but I imagine a quingi could also have a name in their native language that you can't pronounce without a second tongue
21:31:18 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes that might be possible I guess
21:31:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: what kind of "customization"? customizing what skills or spells the character learns, or customizing later, such as when preparing or casting spells or psionic abilities/
21:32:21 <b_jonas> oh, you mean like it's customizable during character creation and leveling how his spellcasting works in first place,
21:33:09 <b_jonas> like some of how much prepared it is, which stat they uses for what checks, what types of spells they can learn and cast, etc?
21:34:07 <zzo38> More customization in skills and feats to be selected (as well as spells learnable), but don't have features such as familiar, turn undead, or other stuff like that, and have less spells per day than a sorcerer
21:35:10 <b_jonas> And where are they on the scale between wizard-like prepared casters versus sorcerer-like improvized casters, and is that fixed by this role?
21:35:37 <zzo38> This class requires spontaneous casting.
21:35:51 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symlink_race
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21:39:56 <oerjan> <b_jonas> oren: um, how do you know? just because there's no comment doesn't mean anything. <-- because of the "Languages with an indefinite article but no definite article are common in an area in Asia stretching from Turkey to India."
21:40:49 <oerjan> assuming that was written by someone who actually knows. i guess it's possible they just deduced it from wrong data.
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21:43:56 <shachaf> oerjan: ok i guess i'll have to repeat my joke in here too
21:43:58 <zzo38> A generic-caster is proficient with one simple weapon of your choice; in my case a morningstar (although I would normally not fight with such things unless I would need to attack, but it may help sometimes). A generic-caster is not proficient with any armor or shield (but can become proficient by feats or multiclassing)
21:44:02 <shachaf> <shachaf> arkeet: What's green and has all colimits?
21:44:59 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know?
21:45:30 * oerjan gives shachaf a small complimentary swat -----###
21:45:30 <shachaf> <shachaf> What's green, has all limits, and isn't vegetarian?
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21:46:47 <oerjan> hm semilattices don't necessarily have all colimits tdnh
21:47:07 * oerjan gives shachaf a slightly harder swat -----###
21:47:08 <shachaf> i got the same pedantry in the other channel
21:47:43 <oerjan> also, i got confused because i remembered that either left or right adjoints have all limits resp. colimits, and i can never remember which is which
21:48:04 <shachaf> There was confusion about that in ##typetheory yesterday.
21:48:13 <oerjan> wait, that's preserve, not have
21:48:27 <shachaf> "Right adjoints preserve limits. Coproducts are limits." "Left adjoints preserve colimits. Products are colimits."
21:48:58 <oerjan> i can never remember which is which for products either
21:49:03 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing a programming language "based on Geometry, some algebra, a bit of formal logic and boolean algebra, and just a /hint/ of set theory"
21:49:19 <shachaf> oerjan: half the sentences i quoted above are wrong hth
21:49:24 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Do you have some other details too? With that it can help also
21:49:37 <zzo38> I do not know the answer of your questions though, sorry
21:49:38 <oerjan> the only thing i remember is the free functors are left adjoints. mnemonic: liberty
21:49:53 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'm using Google Docs, so you probably won't want to
21:50:05 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't follow the mnemonic
21:50:37 <oerjan> shachaf: liberty = freedom, and has the same first letter as "left" hth
21:50:47 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm pretty sure universal properties were invented when someone left adjoint where a mathematician could find it
21:51:08 <oerjan> sorry, your complimentary swat quota is used up hth hht
21:56:09 <zzo38> The generic class also allows you to customize which base save is the high one
21:56:18 <oerjan> <mauris> i've investigated the turkish claim slightly and according to wikipedia and some shady web tutorials it seems to check out! "works for me" <-- i've looked at wikipedia slightly and i'm not convinced
21:57:02 * oerjan doesn't trust pings to work with nick variations
21:59:29 <oerjan> b_jonas: ooh, persian (partly) confirmed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_grammar#The_Definite_and_Indefinite_Articles
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22:01:57 <oerjan> hm there's a better article on turkish too
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22:02:56 <oerjan> ok looks confirmed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_grammar#Indefinite_adjectives
22:06:15 <oerjan> cantonese looks more dubious
22:06:58 <oerjan> thai refuted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_grammar#Articles
22:07:27 <oerjan> those were the main ones i recall
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22:11:03 <oerjan> Taneb: there's /r/roguelike hth
22:11:18 <oerjan> i keep seeing ais523 posting there
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22:16:15 <mauris> apparently cantonese uses 一 ("one") in a way that looks like an indefinite article
22:16:57 <mauris> and i mean "an/en/een/un/une/ein" also mean "one" if you look a couple thousand years back so
22:17:46 <mauris> (what about finnish twh?)
22:18:18 <oerjan> you may spell them slightly different as numerals, but they're really the same word. en/ei/et vs. én/ei/ett
22:18:49 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure finnish is generally not considered to have articles
22:19:20 <shachaf> oerjan: in that case what do they put in their newspapers
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22:22:32 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
22:22:50 <shachaf> I thought your swatter was out of charges.
22:23:06 <oerjan> no, _you're_ out of quota hth
22:23:24 <b_jonas> shachaf: they put advertisments, plus a crossword, comic strip, and photo of skimpily dressed female.
22:26:13 <oerjan> i'm skeptical on the last point, but i don't read finnish newspapers
22:26:56 <oerjan> in norway, a normal newspaper doing that for its own sake would be unheard of
22:27:40 <oerjan> (now if it was an advertisement, they could away with a lot.)
22:29:35 <oerjan> i suppose you could also get away with it in a crossword, if the solution was vacation themed
22:30:07 <oerjan> so basically, norwegian newspaper can have all kind of skimpily dressed females, as long as they have another excuse for it.
22:30:20 * oerjan needs a grammar refill
22:30:47 <HackEgo> bison: missing operand after `bison' \ Try `bison --help' for more information.
22:33:16 <oerjan> skimpily dressed comic female hth http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/pondus/?1440540000&d=-1
22:35:17 <FireFly> oerjan: what'd I do this time
22:35:46 <oerjan> FireFly: you joined the channel right after a swatting session hth
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22:41:29 <HackEgo> tortu: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
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23:03:33 <oren> I have no idea who to vote for
23:04:08 <oren> the upcoming election
23:05:34 <oren> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_federal_election,_2015
23:06:29 <oren> harper didn't do anything wrong like I feared he would, so I can't rule him out anymore
23:08:36 <oren> I guess I can rule out liz may
23:12:29 <oren> but other than that... gaaah I can't decide
23:18:29 <oren> hey boily, you know .ca politics, who should I vote for?
23:20:19 <oren> ronald reagan 2016
23:20:59 <oren> wait ronald reagan isn't dead?!?!?!
23:21:03 <fizzie> Today's joke courtesy of seeing it on #xmonad:
23:21:04 <fizzie> @where real world haskell
23:21:04 <lambdabot> http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ <-- the comprehensive xmonad configuration syntax reference
23:21:08 <fizzie> It's funny because it's true.
23:21:55 <lambdabot> http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ <-- the comprehensive xmonad configuration syntax reference
23:22:18 <fizzie> It's the window manager I use, I just lurk there for useful tips and tricks.
23:22:46 <fizzie> Also re elections, I'm now registered to vote in the UK. Mainly because they threatened me with a fine (in fact, two fines) if I opted not to.
23:23:29 <fizzie> First to list eligible-for-registration people in the household (with a big fine for not doing that), and then to actually register (with a smaller fine for not doing that).
23:23:41 <fizzie> I'm not sure if they also have an even smaller fine for not voting.
23:24:42 <fizzie> I guess they didn't actually directly threaten, they just implied.
23:25:04 <fizzie> "Every household must respond to this request for information [about eligible voters]. Those who don't respond to the form could be liable to a £1000 fine."
23:25:23 <oren> that's a buncha bullshit
23:25:55 <fizzie> "By law, everyone must complete a voter registration form each year, even if they don’t intend to vote. Failure to do so could lead to a fine."
23:26:12 <fizzie> I seem to recall they mentioned some smaller number for the second fine, but I can't find it right now.
23:26:32 <shachaf> I'm registered to vote in California but it's a hassle to do it.
23:26:32 <fizzie> It's always "could lead". I think they've learned that from organized crime protection rackets.
23:26:46 <shachaf> No fines for not doing it, either.
23:27:34 <oren> in canada you can decline your ballot
23:27:43 <oren> maybe I should do that
23:28:20 <fizzie> In Finland there's no registration, but that's only because the Population Register Centre keeps track of you anyhow.
23:28:37 <fizzie> You need to tell them if you move, etc.
23:29:35 <shachaf> mauris: what's a fun haskell thing
23:31:07 <mauris> ok "thing" is a hard thing to define. but like "thing to make with haskell" or "feature of haskell" or help
23:31:44 <shachaf> how about an enlightening exercise or abstraction or something
23:32:14 <fizzie> Also there's this here in UK: unless you explicitly opt out, your voter registration details go on the "open register", which is "available to anyone who wants to buy a copy" (https://www.gov.uk/electoral-register/opt-out-of-the-open-register) and which (AIUI) is used for marketing.
23:33:03 <mauris> hmmm i found messing around with cata and ana and Fix, recently, very enlightening
23:33:14 <fizzie> And you need to opt out every time. This I think they learned from the Adobe Flash updater.
23:33:24 <mauris> and i want to play more with polymorphic recursion! i just can't think of any uses for it ;-;
23:33:40 <shachaf> mauris: Have you done the exercise with Mu/Nu/Fix?
23:34:46 <mauris> https://github.com/aristidb/playground/blob/master/MuNu.hs oh, this thing?
23:35:08 <shachaf> You can ignore Fix, sort of.
23:35:13 <shachaf> Mu and Nu are the interesting ones.
23:35:46 <shachaf> What are the inhabitants of Mu Maybe and Nu Maybe?
23:35:50 <mauris> i haven't, but that looks cool and i might give it a shot right now
23:36:41 <shachaf> Avoid recursion wherever possible.
23:39:09 <mauris> Mu ($Nothing), for the former...
23:40:55 <mauris> looking at Nu, that looks a bit trickier -- it has to work forall a., but i need to supply an a?
23:41:46 <shachaf> newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r }; data Nu f = forall x. Nu x (x -> f x)
23:41:59 <shachaf> You get to choose x. The consumer gets to choose r.
23:42:11 <shachaf> But you're not done with Mu,
23:44:42 <mauris> hmm. i'll think out loud: basically i have to come up with a function (Maybe r -> r) -> r that is polymorphic over r, right?
23:45:48 <mauris> (\f -> f Nothing), (\f -> f $ Just $ f Nothing), (\f -> f $ Just $ f $ Just $ f Nothing), etc.
23:46:00 <mauris> (wrap all of those in Mu)
23:46:30 <shachaf> (\f -> f Nothing), (\f -> f (Just (f Nothing))), (\f -> f (Just (f (Just (f Nothing))))), etc.
23:46:32 <hppavilion[1]> I've spent the last hour or so doing something strange
23:46:40 <shachaf> So what can you say about Mu Maybe?
23:46:54 <mauris> (oh, i meant that as in: i had to give inhabitants of Mu Maybe, not the type it's a wrapper around)
23:48:28 <mauris> hmm. it reminds me of Fix Maybe in a way that's a bit hard to pin down
23:49:03 <shachaf> What are the inhabitants of Fix Maybe?
23:49:07 <shachaf> Or you can do Nu Maybe next.
23:49:42 <mauris> quick question: i suppose (\f -> f (Just (f (Just (f (Just ...)))))) = (\f -> fix (f.Just)) is also an inhabitant, right?
23:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically purposed toward /dirty/ sentences as I thought it'd be funny
23:50:09 <hppavilion[1]> It currently does primitive perversity in exactly 100 lines of code
23:50:28 <shachaf> mauris: No, you're not allowed recursion in Mu.
23:51:05 <mauris> the inhabitants of Fix Maybe are Fix Nothing, Fix (Just (Fix Nothing)), etc.
23:51:36 <mauris> so hey, Fix is our (f r -> r)!
23:52:36 <shachaf> This is a relationship that Fix and Mu have, yes.
23:53:14 <shachaf> @let newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r }
23:53:16 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘L.Mu’, defined at .L.hs:152:1
23:53:55 <mauris> maybe i should look at Nu Maybe, now, and get back to making a conclusion afterwards
23:53:57 <shachaf> @let newtype Mew f = Mew { runMew :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r }
23:54:07 <shachaf> @let newtype Fix f = Fix { runFix :: f (Fix f) }
23:54:17 <shachaf> @let data Nu f = forall x. Nu x (x -> f x)
23:54:45 <shachaf> mauris: Well, can you describe the inhabitants of Mu Maybe?
23:56:57 <mauris> hmmm... well, they all apply (f . Just) some number of times to (f Nothing). they sort of look like folds over a bunch of `Just`s?
23:58:19 <mauris> :t Nu "hi shachaf" Just