00:04:06 how do you pronounce ꙮs? 00:04:26 ꙮ is "multiocular o" 00:04:38 ty 00:28:23 -!- GeekDude has changed nick to DrSinner. 00:28:37 -!- DrSinner has changed nick to GeekDude. 00:35:03 [wiki] [[Hyperfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43748&oldid=39856 * 69.165.212.148 * (+787) 00:36:59 I don't have ꙮ in my font but it is probably a nasal ingressive voiceless velar trill 00:37:46 no, wikipedia says its the honeycomb one 00:42:39 and it is pronounced [o] 00:51:19 -!- boily has joined. 00:56:17 [wiki] [[Hyperfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43749&oldid=43748 * 69.165.212.148 * (+238) 00:58:02 -!- singingboyo has joined. 00:58:55 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:01:49 * boily pokes coppro in the haneman 01:06:24 [wiki] [[Hyperfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43750&oldid=43749 * 69.165.212.148 * (+338) 01:10:57 [wiki] [[Hyperfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43751&oldid=43750 * 69.165.212.148 * (-7) 01:11:40 -!- madbr has joined. 01:11:57 oh man, I've created a monster 01:12:01 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hyperfunge 01:12:11 hyperbolic geometry version of befunge 01:12:18 it's aboslutely hideous :D 01:13:21 a hyperbolic geometry befunge sounds excellently eso :-) 01:14:24 I'm not sure I understand the directions in which you can execute code, though 01:14:41 a picture would be helpful (that projects onto a euclidean space via the use of scaling) 01:16:44 madbr: hey! long time no see! 01:17:06 btw, you have no right creating hyperbolic esolangs on Sundays late at night. 01:19:04 true, it would need a picture 01:19:07 hey :3 01:19:31 and yeah well... these things happen :o 01:20:04 boily: ow that was rude 01:21:16 I kinda wanted to incorporate the expansion properties of hyperbolic space into the language more but just gave up :D 01:23:11 we definitely need some kind of picture/example/synæsthetic experience for that. 01:23:44 ok but not on sunday late at night :D 01:24:02 point. 01:24:52 coppro: sorry. I only got tenpai on a closed chinitsu today. I couldn't achieve outrageousness. 01:27:27 one idea I've had would've been to have a program with an infinitely tiled portion 01:28:15 to store data independently from the stack you'd use the index of the tile respective to the non-tiled portion 01:30:11 i feel like a square tiling would be better than a pentagonal one? 01:31:16 you could translate befunge semantics a lot more naturally then 01:33:11 madbr, is this the grid: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Uniform_tiling_552-t1.png 01:34:21 boily: it's ok. I haven't been doing well since that game 01:35:49 mauris: yes! 01:37:19 i don't see where to draw the middle line 01:37:45 I'm not sure it's the best grid for a hyperbolic fungeroid but I like the pentagonal thing going on 01:38:13 mauris : the line at the left of the center pentagon looks like it'd work 01:39:16 the problem with using pentagons is that you have no notion of opposite sides so you can't define a line on the tiling 01:40:07 I guess it's more an edge 01:40:48 it also has the catch that there are really two versions of each of the 5 directions you can move in 01:40:54 if you're following an edge then that's the same as using the square tiling 01:41:59 i feel like "sprialing out from the center" would be a more natural way to store the instructions? 01:42:01 like, moving leftwards, you can either move leftwards in a way that undoes a right-up move, or in a way that undoes a right-down move... 01:42:23 leading to the same pentagon except the IP is not in the same orientation 01:42:45 mauris : yeah that's the other option 01:42:58 mauris : or a sierpinsky type grid 01:44:57 *sierpiński 01:45:15 you can either start with a middle point (going to 5 edges and 5 corners), or a central equator with edges on both sides (the solution here), or a line of pentagons each with 1 edge leading downwards and 2 edges 1 corner upwards 01:47:21 or a middle corner touching 4 pentagons 01:47:28 you should draw some crude pictures about how the PC moves, mapping 1abcXYZdefghUVW etc. 01:47:50 sure but tonight I can't be bothered :3 01:48:00 maybe i have weak hyperbolic geometry skillz but this is basically impossible to read and imagine :( 01:48:20 no hyperbolic geometry is impossible for everybody :o 01:48:21 :D 01:48:27 which is the point actually 01:49:25 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hi%5Cn help, i'm clicking through random pages and finding horrible languages 01:50:39 hellørjań. 01:51:00 also, goodrjanight! 01:51:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CASSETTE CHICKEN). 01:51:47 how did you even find that 01:52:54 izabera: "random page", probably 01:53:07 I invented the BF Derivative Random Page Game 01:53:14 but stopped playing it because it was too depressing 01:53:35 (the rules: keep pressing Random Page until you find a language you designed, your score is minus the number of BF derivatives you find on the way) 01:54:21 hmm, Hi\n isn't as bad as some I've seen 01:54:32 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 01:54:33 HQ9+ does similar space better, though, I think 01:54:59 that language appears to have been invented independently, though, and does one of HQ9+'s jokes better while missing the others 01:56:44 oh dear, I've been clicking on random pages 01:56:58 and this BF derivative is probably the second-worst I've seen: http://esolangs.org/wiki/And_then 01:57:10 (the worst involved doing something that prevented loops working) 01:58:02 this is certainly something 01:58:41 really there's absolutely no reason for it to be based on brainfuck 02:06:08 -!- singingboyo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:12:54 [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43752&oldid=43747 * Tripl3dogdare * (+0) 02:17:02 i found an actually good language and wrote an interpreter! 02:17:54 which one? 02:19:52 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minimum -> http://lpaste.net/138992 02:19:57 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:20:28 mauris: haha :-) 02:20:31 I like that use of absurd 02:21:08 yes, especially absurd :: Void -> IO ()! 02:21:14 ex falsum interpreter 02:21:50 and of course the parser failing for all finite strings. i'm proud 02:23:47 I still have to figure out how to garbage collect one particularly crazy language I've come up with 02:24:18 madbr: does the behaviour of the garbage collector change the language semantics? 02:25:12 hmm, only if it changes which programs leak and which ones dont 02:25:17 which... I think it does 02:25:42 madbr: oh, my suggestion was going to be "just leak and use boehm-gc" if it doesn't change the semantics 02:25:59 there are definitely languages, like Perl, where the GC behaviour is observable from inside the language itself though 02:26:37 -!- singingboyo has joined. 02:27:23 the problem is that since the already computed data is immutable, computation must generate ever more data 02:27:49 and it's hard to define when previously computed data becomes irrelevant and can be dumped 02:27:53 oh, I see 02:28:19 i don't like that eval. 02:29:21 though I guess that due to the semantics of the language it can regenerate data that it dumped 02:29:31 if it turns out it really needed it 02:29:38 oerjan: how would you have written it? 02:30:17 ais523: referring to http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.golf/2002/07/msg1289.html? 02:31:03 Jafet: was actually refering to Scalar::Util::weaken; the description of Scalar::Util is as a place to put things that are effectively part of the base language, but aren't used enough to be in the language core 02:31:47 but that thing is genius :-) 02:31:53 pity it doesn't work on graphs with loops in 02:33:41 [wiki] [[Minimum]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43753&oldid=13038 * Nooodl * (+657) 02:34:59 [wiki] [[Minimum]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43754&oldid=43753 * Nooodl * (+18) add a header for this i guess 02:40:48 I guess it could just randomly dump data when reaching the data limit 02:41:12 which means that with a real randomness source it would have to reach the solution...EVENTUALLY :3 02:43:48 On the other hand, it is also simultaneously possible that it never reaches the solution 02:44:19 true 02:44:49 also I think the execution time would grow exponentially with each extra byte over the gc limit :o 02:45:13 I...think 02:45:13 -!- Wright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:45:24 -!- Wright has joined. 02:49:37 mauris: http://lpaste.net/138992#a138993 03:24:33 -!- Froo has joined. 03:27:15 -!- Froox has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:30:14 -!- Froo has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 03:37:56 -!- Frooxius has joined. 03:38:27 is there a nickname for a group of three binary bits? I thought it was 'trit' but that's apparently a single ternary digit 03:38:58 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 03:39:02 Ooh, wikipedia says it's a triad or triade 03:44:49 trit doesn't make sense. a bit would need to be two digits then 03:46:36 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 03:47:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 03:47:02 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 03:48:01 "3bits" 03:48:14 "3/8ths of a byte" 03:48:58 it's not a very popular bit grouping due to not fitting very well in bytes 03:49:11 octal! 03:49:52 octal is not very popular, either 03:50:30 right exactly 03:53:34 you could call it an "octal-digit" 04:03:06 octit? 04:04:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nit). 04:15:49 -!- bb010g has joined. 04:16:50 octet, therefore tertet. 04:17:54 quatet would be 4 bits or one hex digit 04:18:41 pentet is one base 32 digit. sextet is one base64 digit 04:18:59 s/quatet/quartet/ 04:19:33 I have used "nybble" before to mean one hex digit or four bits, this is also sometimes used elsewhere. 04:20:35 I use "octet" generally when defining a VM or something else that has memory cells larger than eight bits and are addressable by the longer cells instead of by octets. 04:20:49 So, that mean "octet" always means 8-bits regardless of the size of memory cells 04:23:30 yeah. and then we can also use hexdecet for unambigously a 16 bit word 04:24:08 bitrigintet is 32 bits 04:25:23 quattrisexagintet is a 64 bit unit 04:27:06 centioctovigintet is 128 bits 04:32:31 nerds 04:53:35 myname: you feel the need to say that in /this/ channel? :-D 04:56:15 <|f`-`|f> Fucking thon thon 04:56:21 <|f`-`|f> Is this god damn starwars 04:56:50 what's thon thon? 04:57:33 <|f`-`|f> Thontet did thon's dishes 04:57:46 <|f`-`|f> :^) 04:58:07 ais523: it's best suited here, isn't it? 04:58:30 ;-) 05:00:37 <|f`-`|f> http://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1439678080638.webm 05:00:54 <|f`-`|f> Turn yourselves in peacefully terrorists 05:01:29 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:02:07 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:10:50 -!- aretecode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:10:58 The description of e-TeX says they added classes of marks since it seem like a good idea; however I have been able to do classes of marks without e-TeX, using only standard TeX operations. 05:44:46 -!- Froox has joined. 05:48:43 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:49:45 -!- Froox has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:51:17 is that chris morris 05:59:08 I don't know? 06:00:47 -!- x10A94 has joined. 06:02:40 http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=275318 this is mildly interesting but not enough to pay 15$, can someone provide it for free? >.> 06:03:08 What is that one about? 06:03:28 parsing english with yacc 06:03:43 that's all i know 06:03:53 I do not have a copy to provide for free anyways (as far as I know) 06:04:17 is that English the natural language or English the computer language? 06:04:28 i believe the natural language 06:04:57 yeah natural language according to the references 06:06:16 izabera: it's probably a bad idea to ask people to pirate academic papers for you, after what happened to aaron schwartz 06:06:37 I'd recommend checking the author's/authors' website, though 06:06:44 <.< 06:06:47 it's possible that someone is a part of the ACM 06:07:07 often it has a preprint (basically, the same paper before proofreading/peer review), which the author's allowed to post publicly 06:07:11 and has the ability to download copies and share maybe one copy, I haven't read any fine text but I could see that 06:07:45 I can't remember how draconian the ACM is 06:08:03 one of the major places has a guest access thing where you can look at (but not download) something like four papers per month 06:08:08 even as a non-member 06:09:47 go to 'Request Permissions' maybe, it appears as if that's for non-members 06:14:16 Actually, what happened to Schwartz was controversial because people are used to pirating academic papers. 06:14:45 This particular paper should be worth the $15 though. That's only $5 per page! 06:15:09 that's 5$ per page more than what i'm going to spend <.< 06:16:51 the thing that gets me about academic paper charging is that the charge for individual papers is always utterly overblown 06:16:59 “© 1998 ACM l-58113-030-9/98/0004 $3.50” 06:17:04 if they price were reduced, there's a chance that people might actually spend it sometimes 06:17:21 also the ACM's papers always have a price on the copyright line IIRC, and I have no idea what it refers to 06:23:23 [wiki] [[???]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43755 * 50.170.122.255 * (+192) Created page with "??? is an esoteric programming language created by Stack Exchange users Alex A. and BrainSteel. It uses the punctuation within a literary work to perform operations akin to th..." 06:24:12 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:24:43 We need a separate wiki to catalogue the rapidly developing field of brainfuck derivatives 06:28:02 How about a brainfuck derivative with the exact syntax and semantics of Python 06:28:40 how about the opposite 06:30:49 [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43756&oldid=43755 * 50.170.122.255 * (+173) 06:33:07 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:33:07 [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43757&oldid=43756 * 50.170.122.255 * (+10) 06:34:23 [wiki] [[MagiStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43758&oldid=43752 * Rdebath * (+72) Probably NOT TC 06:34:52 [wiki] [[MagiStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43759&oldid=43758 * Rdebath * (+33) 06:40:34 [wiki] [[MagiStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43760&oldid=43759 * Rdebath * (+5) Humm, OTOH branching doesn't look good enough for a PDA; is it ? 06:51:28 [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43761&oldid=43757 * Rdebath * (+112) Definitely not TC 06:52:41 [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43762&oldid=43761 * 50.170.122.255 * (+1155) 06:56:06 [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43763&oldid=43762 * 50.170.122.255 * (+35) 07:05:13 [wiki] [[Talk:???]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43764 * Martin Büttner * (+105) Created page with ""it is not Turing complete due to the loss of nested loops." I don't see why you can't have nested loops." 07:05:36 [wiki] [[Talk:???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43765&oldid=43764 * Martin Büttner * (+106) 07:06:42 fwiw I agree with the talk page post 07:07:48 [wiki] [[Talk:???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43766&oldid=43765 * Ais523 * (+310) agree 07:09:36 [wiki] [[Talk:???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43767&oldid=43766 * Martin Büttner * (+193) 07:10:21 [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43768&oldid=43763 * Ais523 * (+114) is TC; clarify what ' does 07:17:14 -!- Frooxius has joined. 07:21:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:35:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 07:59:50 [wiki] [[Talk:???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43769&oldid=43767 * Rdebath * (+250) 08:02:32 -!- zadock has joined. 08:05:49 could someone here on Linux > 3.8 run "unshare -Ur true" as not-root and let me know if it produces an error? (this relates to weboflies 2) 08:06:40 or, really, anywhere, but I thought I'd ask here because this channel a) is often responsive to bizarre requests, and b) is vaguely aware of weboflies 08:07:12 unshare: unshare failed: Invalid argument 08:07:24 on 4.1 08:07:42 with unshare from util-linux 2.26.2 08:07:53 hmm 08:08:02 I'm confused, because that is a /different/ error from the one I'm getting 08:08:21 and yet it should succeed, given that that's the simplest possible valid use of the -r option 08:08:30 the reason I ask is that I suspect there might be a kernel bug 08:08:54 $ unshare -Ur true 08:08:55 unshare: write failed /proc/self/gid_map: Operation not permitted 08:08:57 that's what I get 08:09:15 izabera: oh, probably you have unshare compiled out in your kernel 08:09:30 err, unshare user namespaces 08:09:50 that'd explain the symptoms you're seeing, it isn't very useful for me to know if the bug's fixed though 08:11:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:12:27 i didn't compile my kernel 08:12:36 and i honestly don't know much about this 08:13:32 fair enough, I wasn't necessarily expecting people to understand what the command did (it is harmless, though) 08:13:51 sorry to disappoint 08:14:01 it can be surprising to see what it does without the "true" at the end (which makes it a no-op), if you aren't prepared for it, although it doesn't actually break security 08:16:18 -!- singingboyo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:28:50 -!- Patashu has joined. 09:00:41 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: BBL today). 09:28:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:37:23 [wiki] [[Mov]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43770&oldid=43287 * 194.19.70.9 * (+10) mov is not 'esoteric' in any meaning of the word 09:55:36 -!- |f`-`|f has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:56:11 -!- |f`-`|f has joined. 09:57:26 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:00:48 -!- SopaXT has joined. 10:06:58 -!- shikhiniht has changed nick to shikhin. 10:10:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:22:07 Well, I have made progress today 10:23:09 `? progress 10:23:23 progress? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:24:07 `learn Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb. 10:24:12 Learned 'progres': Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb. 10:27:36 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:28:07 -!- Patashu has joined. 10:28:12 -!- boily has joined. 10:45:12 Nice plural handling. 10:47:00 `? progresss 10:47:01 progresss? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:47:03 `? progress 10:47:04 Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb. 10:47:05 `? progres 10:47:06 Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb. 10:48:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:52:27 `` sed -i 's/the reals,/the reals, progress,/' wisdom/tanebvention 10:52:31 No output. 10:54:11 You know, I ought to be more careful about what I say just in case it becomes a tanebvention 10:55:46 the way I see it, everything already is a tanebvention. except those things which are explicitely not, therefore they are. 10:58:30 we're highlighting the most egregious ones, I think. like weetoflakes. 10:58:43 Which is the only one I actually invented 10:58:51 "invented" 10:59:29 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 11:06:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: lunch). 11:22:16 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SEDIMENTARY CHICKEN). 11:26:44 damn, I missed the plural thing 11:27:07 `rm wisdom/progres 11:27:09 No output. 11:27:23 `? progress 11:27:24 progress? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:27:29 `revert 11:27:33 rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done. 11:27:37 `? progress 11:27:38 Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb. 11:49:36 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:57:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:30:34 hmm, now a different set of people is online 12:31:14 could someone here on Linux > 3.8 run "unshare -Ur true" as not-root and let me know if it produces an error? (this relates to weboflies 2) 12:31:30 one person already tried but I think the relevant kernel config option was disabled 12:33:15 ais523: unshare: unshare failed: Die Operation ist nicht erlaubt 12:33:34 hmm, I guess it isn't enabled on your kernel either :-( 12:33:41 Linux Ant 4.1.0-1-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.1.3-1 (2015-08-03) x86_64 GNU/Linux 12:34:59 the relevant feature is user namespaces 12:35:12 but they seem to be broken with respect to GIDs (UIDs work correctly) 12:35:20 either that or both me and unshare(1) are using them incorrectly 12:35:54 On my UserModeLinux-VM it fails too 12:36:28 `run unshare --version 12:36:29 unshare: unrecognized option '--version' \ \ Usage: \ unshare [options] [args...] \ \ Options: \ -h, --help usage information (this) \ -m, --mount unshare mounts namespace \ -u, --uts unshare UTS namespace (hostname etc) \ -i, --ipc unshare System V IPC namespace \ -n, --net unshare network nam 12:36:38 I can believe it would fail in UML 12:36:44 `run unshare -Ur true 12:36:45 unshare: invalid option -- 'U' \ \ Usage: \ unshare [options] [args...] \ \ Options: \ -h, --help usage information (this) \ -m, --mount unshare mounts namespace \ -u, --uts unshare UTS namespace (hostname etc) \ -i, --ipc unshare System V IPC namespace \ -n, --net unshare network namespace \ 12:36:53 oh wow, that's an old version of unshare 12:37:05 that doesn't support "--version", for some reason 12:37:09 `run uname -a 12:37:11 Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux 12:39:14 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:42:15 ais523, I get invalid option U 12:42:25 But mine doesn't have --version either 12:42:33 This is Ubuntu 14.04 12:42:46 right, I think that predates Linux 3.8? 12:42:54 or at least the matching util-linux release 12:43:09 it probably took a while for new Linux functionality to be implemented in util-linux 12:43:46 hmm, I hope that distros don't disable user namespaces by default 12:43:50 or nobody will be able to run weboflies 12:44:42 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 12:44:42 ais523, invalid argument on Arch with kernel 4.0.5-ARCH 12:44:54 What is web o' flies? 12:45:04 Taneb: formerly known as the Secret Project 12:45:13 That helpeth not 12:45:51 could you do "cat /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/build/.config | grep USER_NS" 12:46:21 and, umm, it's quite hard to explain what it does, but it involves intercepting system calls and replacing them with different ones 12:46:35 Sandboxing ♥ 12:46:44 Taneb: http://stealthcatproductions.blogspot.com/2008/11/web-o-flies.html HTHeth 12:47:19 ProofTechnique: I doubt it's been discussed much outside #esoteric 12:47:24 ais523, file does not exist 12:47:30 I only came here for help with it because it's a) ridiculous, b) hard to explain what you're doing 12:47:32 Taneb: ugh 12:47:41 This is a server I don't control 12:47:45 I take it /proc/config.gz doesn't exist either? 12:47:56 No, that does exist 12:48:01 oh, good 12:48:07 zgrep for USER_NS in that, then 12:48:22 (the two files should have the same content, just one is usermode and one is kernelmode) 12:48:33 # CONFIG_USER_NS is not set 12:48:36 ah right 12:48:40 that's the option that I'm trying to test 12:48:48 but apparently it's disabled in whatever distro that server's using 12:48:53 Arch, I believe 12:50:07 I think my laptop (with Ubuntu LTS) has it enabled 12:50:14 Just an old version of unshare 12:50:20 I can believe Arch, on the basis that multiple people have reported the same outcome with kernel versions in the 4s 12:52:12 so it has to be some rolling-release distro that's widely used 12:55:46 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:57:03 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:00:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 13:01:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:02:28 same here with Arch 13:02:46 hmm, I guess this is going to be really hard to test then 13:02:56 also, I guess unshare(1) isn't widely used 13:03:07 I didn't see any relevant results from a web search on the error message 13:03:17 * int-e switched to a kvm host for lambdabot to get namespace support 13:04:14 (the evaluation part runs as a seaparate user and with unshare(CLONE_NEWIPC | CLONE_NEWNET | CLONE_NEWNS) ) 13:07:09 hmm, secure boot may end up preventing people turning all these great kernel features on 13:07:32 on the other hand, it may force distros to turn them all on on the basis that people literally can't compile the kernel themself any more 13:08:06 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:08:21 Well, Docker is becoming quite popular and relies on namespace support. Also systemd has plans in that direction, I believe. 13:08:49 I'm actually surprised that Arch doesn't enable namespaces by default. 13:13:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:13:11 https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/36969?project=1 tells a bit of the story; apparently the namespace feature is still suffering from holes. 13:13:29 this does not surprise me 13:13:43 being able to run a command as non-root and gain /all/ capabilities is crazy 13:13:50 even if most of them don't actually do anything 13:14:04 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vioz- * New user account 13:15:04 Oh, I mixed this up. I need namespaces (CONFIG_*_NS), but not for arbitrary users (CONFIG_USER_NS). So never mind. 13:16:03 -!- ais523 has quit. 13:16:34 (lambdabot uses a suid program to do the namespace setup) 13:16:34 ais523: Reports from here: no '-U' in unshare at work desktop (distribution derived from Ubuntu 14.04); "unshare failed: Operation not permitted" on home desktop (Debian something); "unshare failed: Invalid argument" on VPS (Debian 8.1). 13:16:44 Aw, just a little bit late. 13:17:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:17:16 Or maybe not. 13:17:18 ais523: Reports from here: no '-U' in unshare at work desktop (distribution derived from Ubuntu 14.04); "unshare failed: Operation not permitted" on home desktop (Debian something); "unshare failed: Invalid argument" on VPS (Debian 8.1). 13:17:54 huh, that EPERM on unshare is interesting (the second one) 13:18:22 must have hit the narrow version range where it was root-only, or the somewhat less narrow range where certain distros restricted it to root only as a mitigation for potential security holes 13:18:35 on my Ubuntu 15.04, the unshare works, and setting uid_map works, but setting gid_map doesn't 13:18:45 which is so bizarrely asymmetric that it makes me suspect a bug 13:18:46 It's 3.16.0-4-amd64. 13:18:55 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Pics or it didn't happen). 13:19:49 [wiki] [[Stuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43771 * Vioz- * (+218) initial submission. 13:19:55 It's got 4.1.0-1-amd64 installed too, but I haven't had a chance to reboot lately. 13:26:44 -!- ais523 has quit. 13:26:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:28:56 aha, I think I found the cause of my problem 13:29:03 -!- `^_^v has joined. 13:29:08 https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=87c31b39abcb6fb6bd7d111200c9627a594bf6a9 talks about "/proc/self/setgroups" which I've never heard of 13:29:25 and it isn't documented 13:29:29 but it seems very relevant 13:29:36 also I love the security hole it's there to work around 13:30:07 (you can have group permission lower than other permission on a file, thus dropping group membership via gid_map can give you higher perms on a file) 13:30:11 how very eso 13:36:30 -!- SopaXT has joined. 13:36:47 drwxrwxr-x 4 root root 4096 Aug 16 16:04 test 13:36:49 it works! 13:37:15 int-e: thanks for the bug report link, I found out what I was missing by chasing links from there 13:37:23 the solution is to write "deny" to /proc/self/setgroups 13:38:52 and here it is, my unshare -mUr replacement: http://sprunge.us/GRST 13:42:01 Hang on, what have you done 13:42:32 Taneb: have you tried running it yet? 13:42:45 No, it is scary 13:43:29 it's not weboflies itself, just a test file to play around with some of the features it needs 13:43:32 and it doesn't need root 13:44:18 what it does is /gives/ you root, but a restricted sort of root that isn't actually able to do anything malicious (in theory) 13:45:08 Oh dear god 13:46:06 I've been trying to mount filesystems using it 13:46:19 but loop mounts don't work because I can't read or write any of the loop devices 13:46:27 bind mounts work, mounting a new tmpfs works 13:46:37 mounting a physical block device doesn't work for obvious reasons 13:48:10 I think I did run across some context where group permissions were being used to "exclude" a group (as in, more bits for other than group), but it seemed highly nonstandard. 13:49:59 cygwin has an article about implementing permissions like that on Windows 13:50:23 it turns out that it's possible, but the configuration you have to use is so unusual that even just viewing the permissions in Explorer changes them to something semantically different 13:50:33 Oh, I remember that. 13:50:37 I think you linked to it before. 13:51:19 I possibly did 13:51:22 I can't remember where it is though 13:51:45 probably here?: http://cygwin.com/cygwin-ug-net/ntsec.html 13:51:54 Yes. 13:52:05 Under the "File permissions" heading. 13:53:09 ais523, how risky is this exploit? 13:53:56 Taneb: it's not an exploit, it's an intended feature 13:54:25 Being able to become root is an intended feature? 13:54:25 although based on the discussion in this channel, it's one with more security holes in than you'd expect from a typical intended Linux feature 13:54:38 Taneb: yes 13:55:15 because you can't do anything you couldn't do with your own account 13:55:26 at least, shouldn't be able to 13:55:50 also you can't interact with any user /but/ root (which is secretly your own account), e.g. su won't work 13:56:09 So it just makes me look like root or something? 13:56:55 it's sort-of like kernel fakeroot 13:57:09 however it does let you do various things you can't normally do as a user, that are meant to be safe when sandboxed 13:57:13 e.g. chroot 13:57:57 Can I chroot to a directory I can't otherwise access? 13:58:11 I seriously doubt it 13:58:12 ais523: Out of curiosity, if you "rootify" yourself like that, can you connect to a Unix domain socket in the non-unshared network namespace, and if you can, what would using SO_PASSCRED/SCM_CREDENTIALS report to the other end? 13:58:39 fizzie: I remember reading the answer to this but can't remember what it was 13:58:42 let me try to find it again 13:58:54 Yes, I can't 13:59:20 fizzie: you can, the only UID you can send is root (because it's the only one you can access), and the other end sees your own actual UID 13:59:36 Okay. Reasonable. 14:01:09 -!- nycs has joined. 14:02:48 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:04:07 Taneb: anyway, you are getting just a tiny taste of what WEB OF LIES does 14:04:22 basically, imagine this sort of shenanigans going on except for everything 14:04:37 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:04:41 :O 14:05:10 So, nothing is the user it seems it is, or something? 14:05:16 yep 14:05:25 name had to come from somewhere 14:05:36 but the hope is that everything the user sees is actually internally consistent 14:05:38 just all wrong 14:06:44 I should probably not play around with nsfakeroot as much as I do 14:06:59 maybe some day I'll /actually/ have root but mistake it for just another nsfakeroot 14:08:19 -!- SopaXT has joined. 14:10:32 That's when you wake up from the dream into another dream 14:10:40 What's Debian's fakeroot built on, LD_PRELOAD trickery on the syscall wrappers? 14:10:57 Apparently so. 14:11:04 fizzie: yes, it's pretty fragile 14:12:30 -!- atrapado has joined. 14:13:27 Dreams ♥ 14:16:01 -!- `^_^ has joined. 14:17:47 -!- Lorenzo64 has joined. 14:18:38 -!- nycs has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:18:56 time to go home 14:19:04 -!- ais523 has quit. 14:26:55 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:28:43 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:21:28 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:35:11 -!- SopaXT has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:36:26 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:37:05 -!- mauris has joined. 15:39:20 -!- GoToTell has joined. 15:39:43 -!- Wright has joined. 15:57:33 -!- mauris_ has joined. 16:00:48 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:06:36 [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43772&oldid=43771 * 72.38.29.19 * (+1632) added commands for math function. 16:06:55 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:07:36 -!- mauris__ has joined. 16:07:40 [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43773&oldid=43772 * Vioz- * (+0) /* Overview */ 16:10:32 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:10:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Temporarily Unstuck). 16:15:36 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:30:32 -!- Wright has joined. 16:30:49 [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43774&oldid=43773 * Vioz- * (+1838) /* Overview */ 16:32:16 [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43775&oldid=43774 * Vioz- * (+98) 16:33:29 [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43776&oldid=43775 * Vioz- * (+119) /* Overview */ 16:37:57 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 16:41:00 -!- GoToTell has quit (Quit: Want to be different? Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-). 16:46:15 -!- mauris__ has changed nick to mauris. 16:46:27 -!- mauris has quit (Changing host). 16:46:27 -!- mauris has joined. 16:50:55 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 17:10:43 [wiki] [[MagiStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43777&oldid=43760 * Tripl3dogdare * (+910) 17:11:10 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:14:54 [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43778&oldid=43777 * Tripl3dogdare * (+177) 17:15:25 [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43779&oldid=43778 * Tripl3dogdare * (-46) 17:38:36 [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43780&oldid=43779 * Tripl3dogdare * (-5) 17:41:37 -!- Lorenzo64 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:23:46 -!- Frooxius has joined. 18:26:22 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:28:07 The way I'm writing this operating system kernel, it'll allow you to do something hilarious. 18:28:17 So, right now I'm implementing dynamic memory allocation. 18:29:02 Dynamic memory allocators are going to be objects. You could, in principle, have a bunch of them, each with its own heap. 18:29:37 In practice, I don't see needing more than one. 18:29:52 Anyway... 18:30:27 Memory that's been allocated isn't actually associated with the heap any more, in any way. 18:30:58 And what this means is that if you have multiple dynamic memory allocators, you can allocate memory from one and "free" the memory using another one. 18:31:12 The result is that this section of memory will actually be moved between the heaps. 18:32:57 It's like a library system that doesn't care where you return books. 18:33:21 And libraries gain and lose books when people return them to different libraries. 18:51:00 -!- TieSoul has joined. 18:57:25 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 19:08:51 -!- bb010g has joined. 19:08:57 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:18:50 -!- mauris has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 19:19:28 -!- mauris has joined. 19:31:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:52:16 [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43781&oldid=43776 * Vioz- * (+4096) 19:57:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Page closed). 19:58:31 -!- mauris has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 19:59:26 -!- mauris has joined. 20:05:02 -!- _256Q has joined. 20:15:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 20:16:32 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:17:24 -!- TieSoul has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:18:41 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:27:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:59:58 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DigitalCannon * New user account 21:03:01 the wiki seems to be under attack 21:03:23 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:07:48 -!- atriq has joined. 21:12:06 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:14:24 -!- x10A94 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:17:15 What sort of attack? 21:17:23 fizzie: with a cannon hth 21:17:28 Ohhh. 21:18:57 edwardk: i think you would be the person to know the answer to this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32059754/are-there-useful-applications-for-the-divisible-type-class 21:20:19 * oerjan understatement 21:22:49 hm Control.Lens doesn't seem to use it, what is this? 21:23:30 -!- `^_^ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:28:18 [wiki] [[Niblet]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43782 * DigitalCannon * (+3297) Created page with "'''niblet''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] where nibbles are used to store data. Cat: ,<.<[[ Hello World: ++++<<< oerjan: bookmarked to answer 21:28:25 oerjan: discrimination uses it heavily 21:29:52 [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43783&oldid=43743 * DigitalCannon * (+13) 21:35:20 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:40:36 edwardk: hm the new fancy hackage source browsing seems to break anchors http://hackage.haskell.org/package/discrimination-0.1/docs/src/Data-Discrimination-Grouping.html#Grouping 21:42:00 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 21:43:17 sad 21:43:32 oerjan: you should mention that to hvr 21:43:44 i think he was responsible in some way for the hackage source browsing 21:47:54 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 21:50:07 oerjan: That's pretty strange, the anchor on the "class Grouping a ..." line is -- the same as for "newtype Group", so it's there twice. 21:51:03 (Ditto for "class Grouping1".) 21:51:13 oh hm 21:51:31 there was a github issue about duplicated anchors, maybe this is known then. 21:52:43 except it was supposed to be fixed before that package was uploaded 21:53:38 If you mean https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/issues/319 that seems to talk only about the line number anchors. 21:53:48 yeah 21:54:01 * oerjan doesn't have a github account. 21:54:15 The hscolour 1.21 fix it mentions just says "ensure that line-number anchors do not reset in literate code fragments". 21:54:31 But there's a 1.23 change "bugfix for anchor-generation for instance decls". 21:54:46 oh hm 21:55:30 It's not exactly an instance declaration, though, so maybe that's not related. 21:56:16 [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43784&oldid=43780 * Tripl3dogdare * (+103) /* Hello, world! */ 21:56:45 If you're feeling really enthusiastic, maybe you could run the source through the newest hscolour and see if it's fixed or not. 21:56:59 um i don't 21:57:18 That's reasonable. I wouldn't, either. 21:58:11 oh hscolour uses darcs, no wonder i couldn't find it 22:02:03 fizzie: that hscolour version is also older than the discrimination version 22:02:18 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:05:41 -!- mauris has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 22:06:28 -!- mauris has joined. 22:08:37 [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43785&oldid=43638 * Stalem * (+2951) Conjecture and interpreter source 22:16:47 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:39:49 -!- boily has joined. 22:40:16 bocanonicallyhily 22:43:51 helløstandarjan! 22:57:34 adiœurjan! 22:57:45 -!- boily has quit (Quit: STRUT CHICKEN). 23:48:16 -!- _256Q has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).