00:04:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:11:57 MDudello. the IOCCC has produced many mind-bending gems. 00:12:05 I think my favourite is the tiling program. 00:12:19 Tanelle. do you still boardgame? 00:12:43 On occassion 00:12:53 Or however many cs and ss that word has 00:12:56 occasion 00:13:09 Haven't for a couple of weeks, though 00:13:12 Exams and stuff 00:13:45 ah, the joys of studenting... 00:14:22 Got two more this season, both next week 00:14:29 One on Tuesday about computability and complexity 00:14:38 And one on Thursday about groups, rings, and fields 00:14:42 Not too worried about any of them 00:15:42 I should go to bed now, though 00:15:49 Didn't get much sleep last night 00:15:52 Goodnight! 00:17:04 bonne tanuitb! 00:54:49 `olist 987 00:54:49 olist 987: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti 01:04:11 -!- variable has joined. 01:10:29 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:11:34 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:11:55 thellochaf! 01:12:23 -!- heroux has joined. 01:21:21 boily: what is a godsmoot twh 01:25:01 i had some triuble renemberisnf what froups tings and fields are 01:26:57 helloren. still touchtyping? 01:27:10 shachaf: you'd probably be better off asking the fungot hth 01:27:10 boily: the comrades of washington projected this monument. their love inspired it. their fear betrays to the first faint rumours of this calamity pitt would give no adequate representation to moslem opinion. in bombay the moslems are fnord/ 4 fnord per cent. 01:27:37 shachaf: first google hit here: http://mrtehcyborg.tumblr.com/post/116757446518/nihhussa-oh-my-god 01:28:24 oren: http://www.keybr.com/#!game 01:28:24 -!- M_I_Wright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:28:25 -!- Prime has joined. 01:28:31 `relcome Prime 01:28:32 Prime: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 01:28:48 -!- Prime has changed nick to Guest77553. 01:31:09 -!- hilquias has joined. 01:32:01 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CARMINATIVE CHICKEN). 01:52:41 -!- adu has joined. 01:58:39 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 02:22:32 [wiki] [[Talk:XMLfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43015&oldid=29733 * Zzo38 * (+258) 02:22:48 Dad: "Hey oren, see if you can spot the gap in this proof." Me: "Uhh, is the gap where it says 'obviously'?" 02:28:14 Apparently my dad has invented a sport of finding crappy papers in supposedly reputable journals 02:28:24 [wiki] [[XMLfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43016&oldid=15399 * Zzo38 * (+29) 02:31:26 -!- hilquias` has joined. 02:33:12 -!- hilquias has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:56:56 how do you pronounce häagen dazs? 03:06:51 -!- ZombieAlive has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:14:18 Do you know if there is any free/open-source software to create MOD/XM/S3M that can use a piano-roll editor? I want to know so that I can add it into the AmigaMML wiki comparison charts. 03:35:23 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 03:51:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 04:09:07 -!- Herbalist has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:35:21 -!- Nihilumbra has joined. 04:35:38 http://i.imgur.com/69uwy8ql.jpg I drew a thing 04:43:15 What is it supposed to be a picture of though? Some kind of strange person? 04:44:04 Right out of my imagination 04:44:15 When I'm not working on coding projects for people 04:44:24 I'm usually drawing messed up stuff 04:46:26 OK 04:46:52 You make the OK as if its like OK wow what a creep 04:47:10 If that's what you meant 04:48:21 No, I meant, OK you can make such stuff if you don't have the other stuff to do 04:49:55 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 04:50:35 Ah yeah 04:51:57 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:59:04 good mroing Nihilumbra. That looks similar to some of Frida Kahlo's more... esoteric, works 05:01:42 Who's that 05:04:26 Frida Kahlo is an artist of 20th century mexico, the wife of Diego Rivera 05:05:19 What do you mean it looks similiar 05:07:57 I think I need an Ubuntu livecd 05:08:04 Looks more like something on a metal album cover. 05:08:28 Wait no, that deer with a man head would fit on one too. 05:10:03 Yeah, the little deer is the one I was thinking it sort of looked like, the animal-human surrealist morphing 05:11:51 Also she painted this one where her organs ther heart and lungs are shown through her clothing which reminded me 05:12:55 Ubuntu livecd? Well you'll need a cd burner and a blank cd, which are less common nowadays 05:13:23 only my oldest laptop has a bourner 05:13:34 I used to have a lot of works on my computer but it got wiped 05:13:55 So I'm buying a new drawing tablet and re drawing some old stuff 05:15:21 Ugh this website is so scummy 05:15:42 A million download ads, and "Please note that SolMiRe does not allow the download of any uploaded midi files." 05:15:46 in small print 05:17:51 -!- heroux has joined. 05:18:15 what a scow 05:22:46 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 05:29:57 -!- augur has joined. 05:44:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 05:58:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:59:10 helloerjan. good mroing ais523 05:59:46 godmoren 05:59:52 morning 06:00:22 ohais523 06:02:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: oerjan: i've gotten to the metacircular evaluation chapter? | The chanteau | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/. 06:02:45 -!- variable has joined. 06:11:48 `run echo 'O=8"*16hello a=11 N=8 aW1' | scrip7 06:11:51 16hello 06:11:58 tte? 06:12:37 * oerjan has no idea what tte misspells 06:12:51 `run echo 'O=8"*13hello a=11 N=8 aW1' | scrip7 06:12:52 13hello 06:13:25 whu dosnr this work? 06:15:36 hiw sjiulf o lnoe 06:17:01 `run echo 'O=8"*13hello a=3 N=8 aW1' | scrip7 06:17:01 hello 06:17:05 HA 06:19:25 so colors are with ^C 06:19:42 `run echo 'O=8"*13;12hello a=3 N=8 aW1' | scrip7 06:19:43 ;12he 06:20:05 `run echo 'O=11"*13,12hello a=3 N=11 aW1' | scrip7 06:20:06 hello 06:20:10 HA 06:23:09 `run echo 'O=12"**13,12hello a(1=22 a=3 N=11 aW1' | scrip7 06:23:09 hell 06:23:21 ooh rjan 06:24:15 `run echo 'O=12"**13,12hello a(1=3 a=22 N=11 aW1' | scrip7 06:24:15 hell 06:24:22 `run echo 'O=12"**13,12hello a(1=3 a=22 N=12 aW1' | scrip7 06:24:23 hello 06:24:47 so bright colors can be used as background if you set reverse video 06:26:53 `run echo 'O=12"*76hello? a=3 N=12 aW1' | scrip7 06:26:54 17:bad dest name 06:27:11 `run echo 'O=9"*76hello? a=3 N=12 aW1' | scrip7 06:27:12 hello?... 06:28:08 `run echo 'O=10"*208hello? a=3 N=12 aW1' | scrip7 06:28:09 8hello?.. 06:28:25 `run echo 'O=10"*208hello? a=3 N=10 aW1' | scrip7 06:28:25 8hello? 06:29:59 `run echo 'O=10"*99hello? a=3 N=10 aW1' | scrip7 06:30:00 hello? 06:31:39 So it's doing a %16 on it 06:32:17 -!- Tritonio has joined. 06:37:29 -!- newsham has quit (*.net *.split). 06:39:58 -!- hilquias` has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:41:23 @let cne 0 f x = modify(+1) >> return x; cne n f x = cne (n-1) e f x >>= f 06:41:25 .L.hs:193:13: 06:41:25 Couldn't match type ‘Expr’ with ‘Expr -> a0’ 06:41:25 Expected type: Expr -> Expr -> a0 06:41:29 eep 06:41:37 @let cne 0 f x = modify(+1) >> return x; cne n f x = cne (n-1) f x >>= f 06:41:40 Defined. 06:42:29 > flip execState 0 $ cne 2 (cne 2) undefined 06:42:31 Couldn't match type ‘a10 -> m0 a10’ 06:42:31 with ‘StateT s Identity (a10 -> m0 a10)’ 06:42:31 Expected type: (a10 -> m0 a10) -> StateT s Identity (a10 -> m0 a10) 06:42:39 :t cne 06:42:41 (Eq a, Num a, Num s, MonadState s m) => a -> (a1 -> m a1) -> a1 -> m a1 06:43:25 Cool 06:43:42 hmph 06:55:57 `run echo 'O={Maybe this will work?} a=3 aL'} aW1' | scrip7 06:55:58 bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file 06:56:11 `run echo "O={Maybe this will work?} a=3 aL'} aW1" | scrip7 06:56:11 aybe this will work? 06:56:24 `run echo "O={Maybe this will work?} aL'} aW1" | scrip7 06:56:25 Maybe this will work? 07:09:22 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 07:09:37 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!Frooxius@199-241-202-205.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net$#fix_your_connection. 07:11:13 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 07:11:39 -!- Herbalist has joined. 07:16:38 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:16:58 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:18:07 -!- newsham has joined. 07:51:15 hello, ais523. have you figured out a fix for the StackFlow interpreter over M:tG yet? 07:51:22 b_jonas: I haven't 07:51:28 I've had a lot of other things to think about 07:51:49 ok 08:12:19 how do you pronounce häagen dazs? <-- istr those words are made up. 08:12:55 so, "american", i think. 08:12:58 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:26:02 -!- evalj has joined. 08:29:04 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:37:41 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:40:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:48:18 -!- Nihilumbra has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:57:01 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:11:12 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:43:35 Indeed they are. They're supposed to look scandinavian, but neither the äa nor the z is really scandinavian... it looks more german to me 09:44:04 Although I'm not sure if äa makes any sense in german either 09:53:03 FireFly: no, I think it's supposed to look foreign for everyone 09:53:07 including scandinavians 09:53:14 so they can sell anywhere under the same name 09:53:32 that's why the name looks so riddiculous 09:53:58 fungot: good morning 09:53:58 mroman_: the reason, too, have received instructions for the part i have undertaken as plain and intelligible as i possibly can. i want to tell you just how to do it. 10:02:38 -!- Wright__ has joined. 10:02:39 -!- Wright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:10:20 b_jonas: apparently it was danish that they tried to approximate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Häagen-Dazs#Origin_of_brand_name 10:10:49 Admittedly, at least Häagen-Dazs doesn't look as ridiculous in swedish as Frusen glädjé does 10:11:47 fungot: roger that. Clear and intelligible instructions are very useful. 10:11:47 FireFly: the causes of that great and enlightened city, a run on the bank of england; whose credit had often supported a tottering state, and the waves run high, that the influence of these feelings, m. d'angers, the sculptor, his part in the memoirs of marmontel. many others might be fnord or not, before it can be done by a succession of absolute monarchs, guaranteed by irresistible force against the fnord heresy. but, when i 10:12:12 `style 10:12:12 /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: style: not found 10:12:13 ^style 10:12:14 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches* ss wp youtube 10:12:16 I mean 10:12:19 Ach so 10:12:43 ^style speeches 10:12:43 Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg) 10:12:57 fungot: Are you sure they used the word fnord that much? 10:12:58 fizzie: what are the elements of true greatness. of mankind i fnord the landing on plymouth rock? theirs indeed, were not merely as probable, but as evanescent, and that 10:13:26 fungot is all about the fnord. 10:13:27 mroman_: " so you can see fnord all about where she has strained herself trying to do a lot of them; and i am persuaded that we have generally had a great battle which arrested the armies of europe, and also if they choose; but the executive, of france, who was generally the mouthpiece of the administration did i place more confidence than in the provision and distribution of the public weal enjoy high consideration, and i was 10:13:29 FireFly: what's "Frusen glädjé"? 10:14:11 b_jonas: some competitor founded the same year, apparently, mentioned in the aforementioned article 10:14:23 ok 10:14:38 I've never heard of them apart from that 10:29:04 -!- boily has joined. 10:31:16 [wiki] [[MiniMAX]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43017&oldid=42973 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Example */ typo fix 10:32:55 [wiki] [[MiniMAX]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43018&oldid=43017 * Ais523 * (+8) /* Computational class */ clarification 10:36:22 ä and é in the same word? ouch 10:39:07 Almost like naivete? 10:39:17 Except with more dots and swoops and stuff 10:39:36 oh, but that's a diaeresis, not an umlaut 10:39:41 slightly less mad 10:39:56 that ä can't be a diaeresis because the preceding letter's a consonant 10:40:20 Hence "almost" 10:40:34 or, well, I guess you could claim that l is a vowel, but people don't normally use diaereses with vowels as dubious as that 10:41:27 can #esoteric help me feel better about mockingbirds, bt? 10:41:28 *btw? 10:41:34 I tried plugging some of them into my day job research 10:41:40 and the implications are driving me mad 10:41:49 they have a tendency to explode type systems 10:42:03 They're a kind of bird 10:42:09 That's all I know 10:42:51 explode how exactly? do they violate occurs check in type unification, or straight up try to unify two unequal non-unifyable types, or some other way? 10:43:36 ais523: can you use more specialized less powerful loop functions instead, ones that are well-typed? 10:43:49 the occurs check is basically a hack that's designed to stop mockingbirds crashing the compiler 10:43:51 fold and unfold and the like 10:43:55 and if I feed them to my compiler atm, it crashes ;-) 10:43:59 What do you mean by mockingbird? 10:44:03 ouch 10:44:05 Taneb: \x.x(x) 10:44:10 Ew 10:44:28 hurts to look at, right? 10:44:36 :: (a = a -> a) => a? 10:44:45 b_jonas: anyway, in my current type theory, a mockingbird is actually well-typed 10:44:47 but the double mockingbird isn't 10:45:11 and when I run through the type inference algo to find out why, bad things start happening 10:45:30 what's the double mockingbird? I'm not good in ornithology 10:45:44 e.g. it works by constructing a table of definitions, but gives two different definitions for the same thing, which nonetheless seem to converge 10:45:57 b_jonas: (\x.x(x))(\x.x(x)) 10:46:20 it's basically the Henkin statement of untyped lambda calculus 10:46:38 if you try to work out what type it has, about the best you can do is to determine that it has the same type as itself 10:47:48 and can you debug the compiler to see how exactly it crashes? 10:48:04 like, as in stack blowup or memory trashing or something? 10:48:21 b_jonas: the current algo is stack blowup, it tries to generate infintely many type constraints 10:48:28 I'm working on a new algo manually 10:48:42 where I can notice if things blow up before they exhaust my text document ;-) 10:48:52 I see 10:49:20 ais523, is it really bad if you can't type something which can't be typed? 10:49:37 Taneb: no, you'd expect to not type something that can't be typed 10:49:51 but you want to know why it doesn't type 10:50:07 note that type inference for intersection types is equivalent to the halting problem 10:50:16 and in about the most direct possible way, too: the term has a type if and only if it halts 10:51:42 Are all semidecidable problems equivalent to the halting problem? 10:52:03 no 10:52:32 OK 10:53:11 I don't see a reason why a semidecidable problem would necessarily be equivalent to the halting problem 10:53:17 it's amusing how that one is, though 10:53:34 problem equivalence is basically never that astonishingly exact 10:54:27 as for semi-decidable stuff, there's this nice new algebraic topology result I've been reading: http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.2370v1 10:54:37 Martin Cadek, Marek Krcal, Jiri Matousek, Lukas Vokrinek, Uli Wagner, "Extendability of continuous maps is undecidable" 10:54:48 oh, topology :-( 10:55:15 yeah, I don't understand it either, but (one of) the results it proves itself is easy enough to understand (without proof) 10:55:31 it's scary stuff 10:55:44 aa((!((aa)(!))))*:*^!**^a*^a*aa*(*:*^!**^)*^ 10:55:45 Oooh, I'm doing a module in topology next year 10:55:49 the scariest line of Underload I've seen 10:55:55 I still don't really understand it 10:56:06 It just looks like screaming, ais523 10:56:07 (oerjan came up with it, somehow) 10:56:14 Taneb: it's an implementation of ~ without using ~ 10:56:32 this violates my mental model of substructual logics 10:56:32 some similar results have been known for long, like that it's RE but not recursive to decide which pairs of simplicial complexes are homotopic 10:56:53 b_jonas: I like the way you can say "simplicial complexes" with the IRC version of a straight face 10:57:51 hmm, we need more ad-hoc prove-this-interesting-language-TC contests 10:57:57 the last time was resplicate, i think 10:57:58 what? "simplicial complex" is just the easiest to understand finite representation of "nice" finite dimensional topological spaces up to homeomorphism 10:57:59 *I think 10:58:08 b_jonas: I was thinking of the name 10:58:29 it's like when you say "represented in binary" about integers 10:58:31 it sounds completely absurd if you don't know what it means 10:58:52 in computability yuo have to take care about how you represent stuff 10:58:58 so you get this kind of thing all the time 10:59:17 also, topology people work with really crazy spaces, but simplicial complexes are nice spaces 10:59:33 a simplex is basically just a generalized tetrahedron, right? 10:59:50 ais523: yes 11:01:06 ais523: and a simplicial complex is a space given as a union of simplexes such that (1) each lower-dimensional side of each simplex is in the set and (2) any two non-disjoint simplexes in the set intersect in a simplex that's the side of both of those simplexes. 11:01:34 so it's like a polyhedron of any finite dimension but without half-overlapping faces and star-shaped faces all those ugly stuff 11:01:46 it's basically the way it can be simple and complex at the same time 11:01:49 it's like fully triangulated 11:01:57 oh, that's why it sounds funny? 11:01:59 yep 11:02:06 but you have "simple complex lie algebras" too 11:02:19 mind you, that's a different sense of "complex" 11:03:22 hmm, my favourite name for anything is still a macro from Perl: SV_CHECK_THINKFIRST_COW_DROP 11:03:39 the easy way to get simplicial complexes (and you can get any, up to homeomorphism) is to take n vertices (where n is natural number) affine independent in an n-1 dimensional space, and then any set of simplexes over that. 11:03:46 -!- Herbalist has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:03:46 then there can be no uglyness. 11:03:58 ais523: hellais523. what is it for? 11:04:09 we just usually imagine simplicial complexes in lower-dimensional container spaces because they're easier to draw. 11:04:21 ais523: hehehe 11:04:43 boily: the Perl macro? it checks to see if a scalar has special properties that would make normal-seeming operations on it not work; if the only such problem is copy-on-writeness, it does the copy 11:04:48 so that it isn't copy-on-write any more 11:05:12 ais523: ok, but what does the CHECK part mean? 11:05:18 it checks to see if it's thinkfirst 11:05:31 oh, so does this like return a boolean? 11:05:34 (thinkfirst being a property that means that you can't do weird things to it, sort-of like the opposite of Plain Old Data) 11:05:35 right 11:05:40 makes sense 11:05:40 and also drops the cow as a side effect 11:05:52 yeah 11:06:14 Scalar Variable Check Weird Properties Drop COW. makes sense. 11:06:48 my brain still expands "SV" to "scalar container", because Perl makes so much more sense with that mental expansion 11:06:55 even though the acronym doesn't fit then 11:07:05 perhaps it's a vontainer? 11:07:25 this explains why $x = 4 doesn't change any SV (just the /contents/ of an SV) 11:07:44 yeah (usually) 11:08:03 right, unless $x doesn't exist at the time 11:08:20 or it exists and is magical or tied or something 11:08:23 in which case a new SV is created, and placed in *x{SCALAR} (which is also an SV; hash elements are) 11:08:35 oh yes, if it's magical anything could happen 11:09:01 um, *x{SCALAR} isn't a hash element 11:09:05 I'm not sure how much of the slowness of my memory profiler is due to the fact that it's doing profiling activities during the main loop, and how much is just a consequence of making every single scalar magical 11:09:13 do you mean $somepackage::{x} as the hash element? 11:09:24 err, right, I do 11:09:32 ($somepackage::{x} /is/ *x, right?) 11:09:33 ok 11:09:42 yes, usually 11:09:50 actually, is it *x or \*x? 11:10:08 counting the number of containers involved in something can be weird 11:10:19 especially because you can put an array in an SV just fine; you're not meant to but it works 11:10:22 it can also be one of two magical optimization values: a reference to a scalar or a reference to a sub, or something 11:10:36 and it can just not exist yet 11:10:40 oh, so if you avoid having two variables with the same name, the program is faster? 11:10:42 (as in the pair doesn't exist int he hash) 11:10:45 Perl optimizations always sound so weird 11:10:54 ais523: no 11:11:04 because their purpose is to make Perl work vaguely like other languages, as opposed to what would normally be considered a variable 11:11:13 ais523: I think the optimization applies for constants only, which somehow magically work as both a sub and a scalar 11:11:14 b_jonas: well if you have both $x and @x, then *x will need to be an actual glob 11:11:24 oh right, that'd make sense 11:11:32 ais523: no, I think if you have $x as a plain package variable then it has to be an actual glob 11:11:38 constants are subs internally, for most purposes 11:11:40 nad if you have @x then it _definitely_ has to be an actual glob 11:11:47 and possibly $x has to exist as well 11:11:49 I thought the ruling was "currently they're subs but that might change in future" 11:11:52 like, automtaically exist 11:12:03 ais523: no, I mean you can access them as scalar 11:12:05 let me check 11:12:19 `perl -e print $] 11:12:20 5.014002 11:12:30 haha 11:12:44 both at a) that being old, and b) my reaction on realising 5.14 is old 11:12:48 Perl really has been releasing a lot recently 11:13:05 every year, yes 11:13:10 every May 11:13:26 but just look at Linux, do you know what version number they're at? 5.0 11:13:29 it doesn't even look right 11:13:32 no wait 11:13:35 4.0? 11:13:37 I can't follow 11:13:47 4.0 11:13:58 b_jonas: Linus announced a new policy of incrementing the major version number whenever he feels like it, without any particular significance 11:14:08 because otherwise it seemed doomed to stick at 2 indefinitely 11:14:17 when they bumped the version number to 3.0, some user processes or libraries balked because they expected the uname to be 2.6.* 11:14:26 or maybe 2.* or something 11:14:42 and yes, I know 11:14:43 that's a good argument for doing it more often 11:14:59 otherwise you end up with the Windows 10 issue 11:15:05 yeah, probably 11:15:12 I've seen such a problem at work 11:15:22 but a moment let me try this perl stuff still 11:15:52 oh right 11:16:21 I don't get it 11:16:27 glob stuff is complicated 11:16:28 whatever 11:17:06 anyway, I've created video files that are encoded with fake timestamps, and you had to convert between the real timestamp and the fake timestamp using an auxiliary file 11:17:58 but the problem is, I chose the wrong frame rate for the fake timestamps, and at the point when the stuff started to work, the real timestamps were very uniform linearly distributed and at the exact same framerate as the fake timestamp. 11:18:07 the conversions were wrong at some points but because of this we didn't notice. 11:18:22 I chose the wrong framerate for the fake stuff because it was too correct. 11:18:38 Later we got videos with higher real framerate, and the errors started to show. 11:21:52 And I can even blame myself because there was a time when I should have foreseen that this would happen and could have changed the fake timestamp framerate. 11:31:27 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FLORAL CHICKEN). 11:37:04 I'm surprised that `perl -e worked, since due to ` it had the effect of perl '-e print $]' -- I guess Perl's just being very unpicky about arguments. 11:37:07 `run uname -a 11:37:09 Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux 11:37:23 (That would've been fine either way, of course, since it only has the one argument.) 11:37:55 fizzie: Perl's generally fine with argument stacking 11:40:03 Yes, although perldoc perlrun synopsis doesn't really suggest that. It's got e.g. [ -Fpattern ] but for -e it has [ [-e|-E] 'command' ] which makes it look like it "should" be separate. 11:41:46 Guess the difference is that for e.g. -F it can't be separated, while -e is fine either way. 11:49:35 fizzie: why would that not work? most programs can take the argument for a switch in the same command-line argument or a different command-line argument 11:49:41 fizzie: eg. either perl -e foo or perl -efoo works 11:49:52 a few programs are more picky, but most aren't 11:51:20 Maybe I've just run across the picky ones more often than is standard. Although I can't recall any particular examples. 11:51:45 The usual suspects (sed, dc) seem to be friendly, too. 11:52:44 fizzie: or maybe you just usually used a separate arg 11:53:09 anyway, perl is parsing its command-line arguments in an untypical way, mostly to make shebang magic easier, but this isn't an example for it 11:53:58 Well, to quote POSIX: "The Utility Syntax Guidelines in Utility Syntax Guidelines require that the option be a separate argument from its option-argument, but there are some exceptions in IEEE Std 1003.1-2001 to ensure continued operation of historical applications: --" 11:54:14 "If the SYNOPSIS of a standard utility shows a between an option and option-argument (as with [ -c option_argument] in the example), a conforming application shall use separate arguments for that option and its option-argument." 11:55:14 fizzie: ok... but still, at least gnu programs usually call the libc getopt_long function which behaves this way. 11:55:16 POSIX's option syntax is basically not used by anything, though 11:55:22 ayacc uses it, but that shouldn't really be surprising 11:55:38 except of course gcc which has a more complicated syntax for historical reasons 11:55:40 It does explicitly allow the "normal" getopt way. 11:55:41 possibly the only time I've found Getopt::Std to be useful 11:55:45 "A standard utility may also be implemented to operate correctly when the required separation into multiple arguments is violated by a non-conforming application." 11:58:07 I never used Getopt::Std in perl. I used Getopt::Long many times, though its default settings are idiotic (accepts + as an option starter) so I always cargo-cult this from a previous program: 11:58:12 Getopt::Long::Configure "bundling", "gnu_compat", "prefix_pattern=(--|-)"; 11:59:15 I like those programs that accept -foo to enable foo, and +foo to disable foo. They are delightfully unintuitive. 12:00:04 fizzie: I wish programs started to use -t- as the negation of -t 12:00:22 I mean, the hyphen can't be used as an option letter because of -- anyway, so this seems like the obvious syntax 12:00:26 but no-one I've seen is using it 12:00:37 they're just using --no-foo as the negation of --foo 12:00:46 or another letter or something 12:00:50 like -H being the negation of -h 12:01:09 splint uses +foo for turning foo on, and -foo for turning foo off. I can't remember what does the opposite, but I clearly remember it. 12:01:25 yes, I know some programs do 12:01:29 even with single-letter options 12:01:51 but it's dangerous because you expect + to start a normal non-option argument 12:25:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:27:11 I'd prefer -no- 12:27:17 --foo <-> --no-foo 12:42:55 [wiki] [[RLS]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43019 * EzoLang * (+2189) Created page with "'''rLS''' (revised/reduced Lambdastack) is a stack programming language based on [[Lambdastack]]. It removes most of the ugliness and several features from the old one, but al..." 12:45:02 [wiki] [[User:EzoLang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43020&oldid=39324 * EzoLang * (-18) Add rLS to language list and reformat 12:46:12 [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43021&oldid=42981 * EzoLang * (+14) Add rLS 12:48:00 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 12:48:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 12:48:18 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 12:59:57 -!- Guest77553 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:00:03 -!- M_I_Wright has joined. 13:00:37 -!- Wright__ has changed nick to Wright. 13:24:29 Hello 13:24:58 If I have a ring and a and b in the ring such that neither are 0, and a*b = 0, does a uniquely determine b? 13:25:20 Taneb: no 13:25:22 my initial thought is "no" 13:25:28 Yeah, it's no 13:25:34 Worked it out just after I wrote it 13:25:35 but my intuitions might be off because I've spent so long working with /semi/rings 13:25:39 and thus I'm missing a couple of axioms 13:25:50 Z/8Z, 2*4 = 0, and 4*4 = 0 13:25:50 ais523: definitely no 13:26:13 ais523: because b=0 is always a solution, and there are other solutions in some rings 13:26:15 Taneb: that's a ring? what are the multiplicative inverses? 13:26:21 b_jonas: "neither are 0" 13:26:25 oh right 13:26:27 even still 13:26:38 I'll buy it as a semiring, but not as a full ring 13:26:52 ais523, rings don't have multiplicative inverses 13:26:53 ais523: um, it's a _ring_. it doesn't have to have multiplicative inverses 13:26:54 That's fields 13:27:01 oh bleh :-( 13:27:06 ais523: if it had multiplicative inverses, then it was a division ring aka skew-field 13:27:06 so a semiring is a 3/4field? 13:27:20 or 1/4field? or whatever? 13:27:26 terminology is weird sometimes 13:27:37