< 1432253062 816949 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1432253517 930499 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDudello. the IOCCC has produced many mind-bending gems. < 1432253525 784008 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my favourite is the tiling program. < 1432253539 283108 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tanelle. do you still boardgame? < 1432253563 396640 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :On occassion < 1432253573 850339 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or however many cs and ss that word has < 1432253576 223645 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :occasion < 1432253589 466790 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't for a couple of weeks, though < 1432253592 307925 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exams and stuff < 1432253625 227702 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the joys of studenting... < 1432253662 265417 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got two more this season, both next week < 1432253669 116858 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :One on Tuesday about computability and complexity < 1432253678 200380 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And one on Thursday about groups, rings, and fields < 1432253682 649267 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not too worried about any of them < 1432253742 982078 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should go to bed now, though < 1432253749 79833 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't get much sleep last night < 1432253752 794821 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodnight! < 1432253824 790587 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonne tanuitb! < 1432256089 48021 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 987 < 1432256089 704023 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 987: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti < 1432256651 953942 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1432257029 927422 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1432257094 861219 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-kasoldvwhbeoblhr QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1432257115 820521 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thellochaf! < 1432257143 887899 :heroux!~heroux@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-qzgqezzllzhklejc JOIN :#esoteric < 1432257681 689690 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: what is a godsmoot twh < 1432257901 367652 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had some triuble renemberisnf what froups tings and fields are < 1432258017 726823 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloren. still touchtyping? < 1432258030 158350 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you'd probably be better off asking the fungot hth < 1432258030 334465 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: the comrades of washington projected this monument. their love inspired it. their fear betrays to the first faint rumours of this calamity pitt would give no adequate representation to moslem opinion. in bombay the moslems are fnord/ 4 fnord per cent. < 1432258057 889634 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: first google hit here: http://mrtehcyborg.tumblr.com/post/116757446518/nihhussa-oh-my-god < 1432258104 437683 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: http://www.keybr.com/#!game < 1432258104 685922 :M_I_Wright!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1432258105 72192 :Prime!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1432258111 234610 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome Prime < 1432258112 204188 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​09Prime: 02Welcome 06to 13the 04international 07hub 08for 09esoteric 02programming 06language 13design 04and 07deployment! 08For 09more 02information, 06check 13out 04our 07wiki: 08. 09(For 02the 06other 13kind 04of 07esoterica, 08try 09#esoteric 02on 06irc.dal.net.) < 1432258128 4045 :Prime!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net NICK :Guest77553 < 1432258269 602978 :hilquias!~user@unaffiliated/hilquias JOIN :#esoteric < 1432258321 275726 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: CARMINATIVE CHICKEN < 1432259561 519865 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1432259919 431349 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1432261352 778475 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:XMLfuck14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43015&oldid=29733 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+258) 10 < 1432261368 511815 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dad: "Hey oren, see if you can spot the gap in this proof." Me: "Uhh, is the gap where it says 'obviously'?" < 1432261694 61190 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently my dad has invented a sport of finding crappy papers in supposedly reputable journals < 1432261704 292713 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07XMLfuck14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43016&oldid=15399 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+29) 10 < 1432261886 314057 :hilquias`!~user@187.59.114.63 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432261992 491746 :hilquias!~user@unaffiliated/hilquias QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1432263416 1504 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you pronounce häagen dazs? < 1432264011 714493 :ZombieAlive!~N3cr0naV@unaffiliated/zombiealive QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1432264458 828822 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know if there is any free/open-source software to create MOD/XM/S3M that can use a piano-roll editor? I want to know so that I can add it into the AmigaMML wiki comparison charts. < 1432265723 203131 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude/bot/geekbot QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1432266712 673428 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1432267747 176903 :Herbalist!~oz@unaffiliated/herbalist QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1432269321 326934 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr JOIN :#esoteric < 1432269338 536707 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/69uwy8ql.jpg I drew a thing < 1432269795 800239 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it supposed to be a picture of though? Some kind of strange person? < 1432269844 505448 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right out of my imagination < 1432269855 673940 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I'm not working on coding projects for people < 1432269864 886961 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm usually drawing messed up stuff < 1432269986 554399 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1432270012 825486 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr PRIVMSG #esoteric :You make the OK as if its like OK wow what a creep < 1432270030 426884 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that's what you meant < 1432270101 19112 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I meant, OK you can make such stuff if you don't have the other stuff to do < 1432270195 957424 :augur!~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1432270235 311922 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yeah < 1432270317 791709 :heroux!~heroux@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-qzgqezzllzhklejc QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1432270744 862092 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :good mroing Nihilumbra. That looks similar to some of Frida Kahlo's more... esoteric, works < 1432270902 168978 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's that < 1432271066 758481 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frida Kahlo is an artist of 20th century mexico, the wife of Diego Rivera < 1432271119 109887 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean it looks similiar < 1432271277 735124 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2a85f.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I need an Ubuntu livecd < 1432271284 908414 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks more like something on a metal album cover. < 1432271308 386643 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait no, that deer with a man head would fit on one too. < 1432271403 266561 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the little deer is the one I was thinking it sort of looked like, the animal-human surrealist morphing < 1432271511 947318 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also she painted this one where her organs ther heart and lungs are shown through her clothing which reminded me < 1432271575 320270 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu livecd? Well you'll need a cd burner and a blank cd, which are less common nowadays < 1432271603 745598 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :only my oldest laptop has a bourner < 1432271614 338179 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to have a lot of works on my computer but it got wiped < 1432271635 237139 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm buying a new drawing tablet and re drawing some old stuff < 1432271721 951792 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2a85f.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh this website is so scummy < 1432271742 607587 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2a85f.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A million download ads, and "Please note that SolMiRe does not allow the download of any uploaded midi files." < 1432271746 685243 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2a85f.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in small print < 1432271871 690569 :heroux!~heroux@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-lktlzfjxnqxfvoqz JOIN :#esoteric < 1432271895 384323 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric : what a scow < 1432272166 489611 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDream < 1432272597 395852 :augur!~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1432273457 37104 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432274293 218070 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1432274350 176857 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloerjan. good mroing ais523 < 1432274386 296089 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :godmoren < 1432274392 448451 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :morning < 1432274422 922802 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohais523 < 1432274563 326445 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric : oerjan: i've gotten to the metacircular evaluation chapter? | The chanteau | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ < 1432274565 419303 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1432275108 811688 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=8"*16hello a=11 N=8 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432275111 696809 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ 16hello < 1432275118 468588 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :tte? < 1432275157 11775 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has no idea what tte misspells < 1432275171 359489 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=8"*13hello a=11 N=8 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432275172 69698 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ 13hello < 1432275205 246667 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :whu dosnr this work? < 1432275336 442233 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiw sjiulf o lnoe < 1432275421 361054 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=8"*13hello a=3 N=8 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432275421 996770 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​13hello < 1432275425 1774 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :HA < 1432275565 602477 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so colors are with ^C < 1432275582 847800 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=8"*13;12hello a=3 N=8 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432275583 467549 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​13;12he < 1432275605 861425 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=11"*13,12hello a=3 N=11 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432275606 493670 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​13,12hello < 1432275610 684777 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :HA < 1432275789 355358 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=12"**13,12hello a(1=22 a=3 N=11 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432275789 944943 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​13,12hell < 1432275801 868670 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh rjan < 1432275855 166591 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=12"**13,12hello a(1=3 a=22 N=11 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432275855 807448 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​13,12hell < 1432275862 991050 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=12"**13,12hello a(1=3 a=22 N=12 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432275863 607246 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​13,12hello < 1432275887 327902 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so bright colors can be used as background if you set reverse video < 1432276013 710169 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=12"*76hello? a=3 N=12 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432276014 323319 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:bad dest name < 1432276031 874236 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=9"*76hello? a=3 N=12 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432276032 545155 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​76hello?... < 1432276088 879665 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=10"*208hello? a=3 N=12 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432276089 477644 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​208hello?.. < 1432276105 43495 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=10"*208hello? a=3 N=10 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432276105 636962 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​208hello? < 1432276199 985664 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O=10"*99hello? a=3 N=10 aW1' | scrip7 < 1432276200 638215 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​99hello? < 1432276299 726005 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's doing a %16 on it < 1432276337 154405 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1432276649 605286 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1432276798 849028 :hilquias`!~user@187.59.114.63 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1432276883 949689 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let cne 0 f x = modify(+1) >> return x; cne n f x = cne (n-1) e f x >>= f < 1432276885 246922 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : .L.hs:193:13: < 1432276885 422995 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match type ‘Expr’ with ‘Expr -> a0’ < 1432276885 423053 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Expected type: Expr -> Expr -> a0 < 1432276889 174852 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :eep < 1432276897 762304 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let cne 0 f x = modify(+1) >> return x; cne n f x = cne (n-1) f x >>= f < 1432276900 24623 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined. < 1432276949 667271 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> flip execState 0 $ cne 2 (cne 2) undefined < 1432276951 314449 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match type ‘a10 -> m0 a10’ < 1432276951 490547 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : with ‘StateT s Identity (a10 -> m0 a10)’ < 1432276951 490603 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Expected type: (a10 -> m0 a10) -> StateT s Identity (a10 -> m0 a10) < 1432276959 659079 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t cne < 1432276961 187528 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Eq a, Num a, Num s, MonadState s m) => a -> (a1 -> m a1) -> a1 -> m a1 < 1432277005 201982 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool < 1432277022 79417 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph < 1432277757 533295 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'O={Maybe this will work?} a=3 aL'} aW1' | scrip7 < 1432277758 154055 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file < 1432277771 321198 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "O={Maybe this will work?} a=3 aL'} aW1" | scrip7 < 1432277771 867555 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​aybe this will work? < 1432277784 774855 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "O={Maybe this will work?} aL'} aW1" | scrip7 < 1432277785 330740 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe this will work? < 1432278562 221712 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :oerjan > 1432278562 231240 NAMES :#esoteric < 1432278577 588540 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -b :*!Frooxius@199-241-202-205.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net$#fix_your_connection > 1432278577 596638 NAMES :#esoteric < 1432278673 601074 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -o :oerjan > 1432278673 609857 NAMES :#esoteric < 1432278699 948268 :Herbalist!~oz@unaffiliated/herbalist JOIN :#esoteric < 1432278998 80659 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1432279018 300474 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1432279087 433739 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1432281075 354481 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello, ais523. have you figured out a fix for the StackFlow interpreter over M:tG yet? < 1432281082 824770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I haven't < 1432281088 981373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had a lot of other things to think about < 1432281109 475139 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1432282339 871546 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : how do you pronounce häagen dazs? <-- istr those words are made up. < 1432282375 233212 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, "american", i think. < 1432282378 37722 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.190.253.145 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432283162 961 :evalj!~jeval@5403C31A.catv.pool.telekom.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1432283344 56387 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1432283861 666711 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1432284051 954596 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.190.253.145 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1432284498 455634 :Nihilumbra!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fynvrxhmtdscimtr QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1432285021 542836 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.190.253.145 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432285872 558024 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.190.253.145 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1432287815 143233 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed they are. They're supposed to look scandinavian, but neither the äa nor the z is really scandinavian... it looks more german to me < 1432287844 125583 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I'm not sure if äa makes any sense in german either < 1432288383 762683 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: no, I think it's supposed to look foreign for everyone < 1432288387 304809 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :including scandinavians < 1432288394 412683 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they can sell anywhere under the same name < 1432288412 96872 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why the name looks so riddiculous < 1432288438 158174 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: good morning < 1432288438 334241 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: the reason, too, have received instructions for the part i have undertaken as plain and intelligible as i possibly can. i want to tell you just how to do it. < 1432288958 793908 :Wright__!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1432288959 188764 :Wright!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1432289420 995193 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: apparently it was danish that they tried to approximate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Häagen-Dazs#Origin_of_brand_name < 1432289449 304563 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly, at least Häagen-Dazs doesn't look as ridiculous in swedish as Frusen glädjé does < 1432289507 313365 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: roger that. Clear and intelligible instructions are very useful. < 1432289507 612037 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: the causes of that great and enlightened city, a run on the bank of england; whose credit had often supported a tottering state, and the waves run high, that the influence of these feelings, m. d'angers, the sculptor, his part in the memoirs of marmontel. many others might be fnord or not, before it can be done by a succession of absolute monarchs, guaranteed by irresistible force against the fnord heresy. but, when i < 1432289532 92790 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`style < 1432289532 695003 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: style: not found < 1432289533 936579 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1432289534 112758 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches* ss wp youtube < 1432289536 274224 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1432289539 648168 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ach so < 1432289563 131520 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style speeches < 1432289563 307781 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg) < 1432289577 942742 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Are you sure they used the word fnord that much? < 1432289578 118743 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what are the elements of true greatness. of mankind i fnord the landing on plymouth rock? theirs indeed, were not merely as probable, but as evanescent, and that < 1432289606 847249 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot is all about the fnord. < 1432289607 199366 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: " so you can see fnord all about where she has strained herself trying to do a lot of them; and i am persuaded that we have generally had a great battle which arrested the armies of europe, and also if they choose; but the executive, of france, who was generally the mouthpiece of the administration did i place more confidence than in the provision and distribution of the public weal enjoy high consideration, and i was < 1432289609 338225 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: what's "Frusen glädjé"? < 1432289651 239999 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: some competitor founded the same year, apparently, mentioned in the aforementioned article < 1432289663 955799 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1432289678 966859 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never heard of them apart from that < 1432290544 962355 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432290676 180445 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07MiniMAX14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43017&oldid=42973 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10/* Example */ typo fix < 1432290775 970887 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07MiniMAX14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43018&oldid=43017 5* 03Ais523 5* (+8) 10/* Computational class */ clarification < 1432290982 819351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ä and é in the same word? ouch < 1432291147 33751 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost like naivete? < 1432291157 454419 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except with more dots and swoops and stuff < 1432291176 405502 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, but that's a diaeresis, not an umlaut < 1432291181 558909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightly less mad < 1432291196 286841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that ä can't be a diaeresis because the preceding letter's a consonant < 1432291220 304397 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence "almost" < 1432291234 793159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, I guess you could claim that l is a vowel, but people don't normally use diaereses with vowels as dubious as that < 1432291287 448801 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can #esoteric help me feel better about mockingbirds, bt? < 1432291288 839319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*btw? < 1432291294 486430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried plugging some of them into my day job research < 1432291300 711463 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the implications are driving me mad < 1432291309 190260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have a tendency to explode type systems < 1432291323 264369 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're a kind of bird < 1432291329 94652 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all I know < 1432291371 35997 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :explode how exactly? do they violate occurs check in type unification, or straight up try to unify two unequal non-unifyable types, or some other way? < 1432291416 8207 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: can you use more specialized less powerful loop functions instead, ones that are well-typed? < 1432291429 673482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the occurs check is basically a hack that's designed to stop mockingbirds crashing the compiler < 1432291431 738933 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fold and unfold and the like < 1432291435 990137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if I feed them to my compiler atm, it crashes ;-) < 1432291439 459683 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean by mockingbird? < 1432291443 533572 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1432291445 326310 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: \x.x(x) < 1432291450 527973 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ew < 1432291468 780793 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hurts to look at, right? < 1432291476 695014 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::: (a = a -> a) => a? < 1432291485 151023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: anyway, in my current type theory, a mockingbird is actually well-typed < 1432291487 699666 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the double mockingbird isn't < 1432291511 582837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when I run through the type inference algo to find out why, bad things start happening < 1432291530 995306 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the double mockingbird? I'm not good in ornithology < 1432291544 692074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. it works by constructing a table of definitions, but gives two different definitions for the same thing, which nonetheless seem to converge < 1432291557 747205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: (\x.x(x))(\x.x(x)) < 1432291580 553245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically the Henkin statement of untyped lambda calculus < 1432291598 141879 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you try to work out what type it has, about the best you can do is to determine that it has the same type as itself < 1432291668 854747 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can you debug the compiler to see how exactly it crashes? < 1432291684 434353 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, as in stack blowup or memory trashing or something? < 1432291701 34144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the current algo is stack blowup, it tries to generate infintely many type constraints < 1432291708 630692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working on a new algo manually < 1432291722 739027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where I can notice if things blow up before they exhaust my text document ;-) < 1432291732 711157 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1432291760 856570 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is it really bad if you can't type something which can't be typed? < 1432291777 433485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: no, you'd expect to not type something that can't be typed < 1432291791 857313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you want to know why it doesn't type < 1432291807 126302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that type inference for intersection types is equivalent to the halting problem < 1432291816 579240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in about the most direct possible way, too: the term has a type if and only if it halts < 1432291902 115829 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are all semidecidable problems equivalent to the halting problem? < 1432291923 686189 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1432291952 391057 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1432291991 104714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see a reason why a semidecidable problem would necessarily be equivalent to the halting problem < 1432291997 57689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's amusing how that one is, though < 1432292014 579757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem equivalence is basically never that astonishingly exact < 1432292067 590005 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for semi-decidable stuff, there's this nice new algebraic topology result I've been reading: http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.2370v1 < 1432292077 176008 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Martin Cadek, Marek Krcal, Jiri Matousek, Lukas Vokrinek, Uli Wagner, "Extendability of continuous maps is undecidable" < 1432292088 153635 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, topology :-( < 1432292115 431093 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I don't understand it either, but (one of) the results it proves itself is easy enough to understand (without proof) < 1432292131 269444 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's scary stuff < 1432292144 73133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aa((!((aa)(!))))*:*^!**^a*^a*aa*(*:*^!**^)*^ < 1432292145 153046 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh, I'm doing a module in topology next year < 1432292149 535115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the scariest line of Underload I've seen < 1432292155 452746 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't really understand it < 1432292166 639501 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just looks like screaming, ais523 < 1432292167 244826 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oerjan came up with it, somehow) < 1432292174 240942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: it's an implementation of ~ without using ~ < 1432292192 607631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this violates my mental model of substructual logics < 1432292192 783800 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some similar results have been known for long, like that it's RE but not recursive to decide which pairs of simplicial complexes are homotopic < 1432292213 457196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I like the way you can say "simplicial complexes" with the IRC version of a straight face < 1432292271 129981 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, we need more ad-hoc prove-this-interesting-language-TC contests < 1432292277 794138 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last time was resplicate, i think < 1432292278 276944 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? "simplicial complex" is just the easiest to understand finite representation of "nice" finite dimensional topological spaces up to homeomorphism < 1432292279 977919 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I think < 1432292288 245505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I was thinking of the name < 1432292309 257414 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like when you say "represented in binary" about integers < 1432292311 812288 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds completely absurd if you don't know what it means < 1432292332 240356 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in computability yuo have to take care about how you represent stuff < 1432292338 264450 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get this kind of thing all the time < 1432292357 436241 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, topology people work with really crazy spaces, but simplicial complexes are nice spaces < 1432292373 424058 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a simplex is basically just a generalized tetrahedron, right? < 1432292390 238608 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes < 1432292466 920817 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and a simplicial complex is a space given as a union of simplexes such that (1) each lower-dimensional side of each simplex is in the set and (2) any two non-disjoint simplexes in the set intersect in a simplex that's the side of both of those simplexes. < 1432292494 494170 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's like a polyhedron of any finite dimension but without half-overlapping faces and star-shaped faces all those ugly stuff < 1432292506 565244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically the way it can be simple and complex at the same time < 1432292509 229367 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like fully triangulated < 1432292517 107596 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's why it sounds funny? < 1432292519 547315 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1432292526 566296 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have "simple complex lie algebras" too < 1432292539 615949 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, that's a different sense of "complex" < 1432292602 284244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, my favourite name for anything is still a macro from Perl: SV_CHECK_THINKFIRST_COW_DROP < 1432292619 619867 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the easy way to get simplicial complexes (and you can get any, up to homeomorphism) is to take n vertices (where n is natural number) affine independent in an n-1 dimensional space, and then any set of simplexes over that. < 1432292626 48025 :Herbalist!~oz@unaffiliated/herbalist QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1432292626 782156 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there can be no uglyness. < 1432292638 459144 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hellais523. what is it for? < 1432292649 143638 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just usually imagine simplicial complexes in lower-dimensional container spaces because they're easier to draw. < 1432292661 964827 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hehehe < 1432292683 827807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: the Perl macro? it checks to see if a scalar has special properties that would make normal-seeming operations on it not work; if the only such problem is copy-on-writeness, it does the copy < 1432292688 249129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it isn't copy-on-write any more < 1432292712 327225 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, but what does the CHECK part mean? < 1432292718 246562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it checks to see if it's thinkfirst < 1432292731 796742 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so does this like return a boolean? < 1432292734 427012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thinkfirst being a property that means that you can't do weird things to it, sort-of like the opposite of Plain Old Data) < 1432292735 857850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1432292740 227793 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1432292740 403953 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also drops the cow as a side effect < 1432292752 989598 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1432292774 916115 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scalar Variable Check Weird Properties Drop COW. makes sense. < 1432292808 294172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain still expands "SV" to "scalar container", because Perl makes so much more sense with that mental expansion < 1432292815 473831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though the acronym doesn't fit then < 1432292825 637173 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it's a vontainer? < 1432292845 458053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this explains why $x = 4 doesn't change any SV (just the /contents/ of an SV) < 1432292864 953705 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah (usually) < 1432292883 794424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, unless $x doesn't exist at the time < 1432292900 717772 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it exists and is magical or tied or something < 1432292903 30767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case a new SV is created, and placed in *x{SCALAR} (which is also an SV; hash elements are) < 1432292915 393452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, if it's magical anything could happen < 1432292941 154078 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, *x{SCALAR} isn't a hash element < 1432292945 101674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how much of the slowness of my memory profiler is due to the fact that it's doing profiling activities during the main loop, and how much is just a consequence of making every single scalar magical < 1432292953 162606 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean $somepackage::{x} as the hash element? < 1432292964 804928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, right, I do < 1432292972 767276 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :($somepackage::{x} /is/ *x, right?) < 1432292973 93814 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1432292982 239402 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, usually < 1432292990 291785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, is it *x or \*x? < 1432293008 514806 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :counting the number of containers involved in something can be weird < 1432293019 426221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially because you can put an array in an SV just fine; you're not meant to but it works < 1432293022 36418 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can also be one of two magical optimization values: a reference to a scalar or a reference to a sub, or something < 1432293036 930583 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it can just not exist yet < 1432293040 973250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so if you avoid having two variables with the same name, the program is faster? < 1432293042 974433 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in the pair doesn't exist int he hash) < 1432293045 310900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl optimizations always sound so weird < 1432293054 973943 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no < 1432293064 469855 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because their purpose is to make Perl work vaguely like other languages, as opposed to what would normally be considered a variable < 1432293073 939414 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think the optimization applies for constants only, which somehow magically work as both a sub and a scalar < 1432293074 191013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well if you have both $x and @x, then *x will need to be an actual glob < 1432293084 981559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, that'd make sense < 1432293092 718039 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, I think if you have $x as a plain package variable then it has to be an actual glob < 1432293098 565690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :constants are subs internally, for most purposes < 1432293100 938730 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nad if you have @x then it _definitely_ has to be an actual glob < 1432293107 66742 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly $x has to exist as well < 1432293109 460894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the ruling was "currently they're subs but that might change in future" < 1432293112 673939 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, automtaically exist < 1432293123 741284 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, I mean you can access them as scalar < 1432293125 227755 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check < 1432293139 965979 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e print $] < 1432293140 572860 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :5.014002 < 1432293150 431400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1432293164 177177 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both at a) that being old, and b) my reaction on realising 5.14 is old < 1432293168 415034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl really has been releasing a lot recently < 1432293185 909471 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :every year, yes < 1432293190 161424 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :every May < 1432293206 719889 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but just look at Linux, do you know what version number they're at? 5.0 < 1432293209 229974 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't even look right < 1432293212 797505 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1432293215 84109 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.0? < 1432293217 262503 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't follow < 1432293227 175468 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.0 < 1432293238 865692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Linus announced a new policy of incrementing the major version number whenever he feels like it, without any particular significance < 1432293248 518983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because otherwise it seemed doomed to stick at 2 indefinitely < 1432293257 337127 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :when they bumped the version number to 3.0, some user processes or libraries balked because they expected the uname to be 2.6.* < 1432293266 160476 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe 2.* or something < 1432293282 776486 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I know < 1432293283 88222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good argument for doing it more often < 1432293299 884499 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you end up with the Windows 10 issue < 1432293305 93246 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, probably < 1432293312 565649 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen such a problem at work < 1432293322 540375 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a moment let me try this perl stuff still < 1432293352 936887 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1432293381 200397 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it < 1432293387 132212 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :glob stuff is complicated < 1432293388 762300 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1432293426 815343 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I've created video files that are encoded with fake timestamps, and you had to convert between the real timestamp and the fake timestamp using an auxiliary file < 1432293478 303842 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the problem is, I chose the wrong frame rate for the fake timestamps, and at the point when the stuff started to work, the real timestamps were very uniform linearly distributed and at the exact same framerate as the fake timestamp. < 1432293487 983640 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the conversions were wrong at some points but because of this we didn't notice. < 1432293502 756168 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I chose the wrong framerate for the fake stuff because it was too correct. < 1432293518 729490 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Later we got videos with higher real framerate, and the errors started to show. < 1432293712 276056 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I can even blame myself because there was a time when I should have foreseen that this would happen and could have changed the fake timestamp framerate. < 1432294287 410057 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: FLORAL CHICKEN < 1432294624 853128 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised that `perl -e worked, since due to ` it had the effect of perl '-e print $]' -- I guess Perl's just being very unpicky about arguments. < 1432294627 831496 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run uname -a < 1432294629 757290 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux < 1432294643 128184 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That would've been fine either way, of course, since it only has the one argument.) < 1432294675 498143 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Perl's generally fine with argument stacking < 1432294803 669470 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although perldoc perlrun synopsis doesn't really suggest that. It's got e.g. [ -Fpattern ] but for -e it has [ [-e|-E] 'command' ] which makes it look like it "should" be separate. < 1432294906 293682 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess the difference is that for e.g. -F it can't be separated, while -e is fine either way. < 1432295375 326381 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: why would that not work? most programs can take the argument for a switch in the same command-line argument or a different command-line argument < 1432295381 897602 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: eg. either perl -e foo or perl -efoo works < 1432295392 863199 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few programs are more picky, but most aren't < 1432295480 329580 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I've just run across the picky ones more often than is standard. Although I can't recall any particular examples. < 1432295505 738260 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The usual suspects (sed, dc) seem to be friendly, too. < 1432295564 106841 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: or maybe you just usually used a separate arg < 1432295589 789805 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, perl is parsing its command-line arguments in an untypical way, mostly to make shebang magic easier, but this isn't an example for it < 1432295638 889380 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, to quote POSIX: "The Utility Syntax Guidelines in Utility Syntax Guidelines require that the option be a separate argument from its option-argument, but there are some exceptions in IEEE Std 1003.1-2001 to ensure continued operation of historical applications: --" < 1432295654 850998 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If the SYNOPSIS of a standard utility shows a between an option and option-argument (as with [ -c option_argument] in the example), a conforming application shall use separate arguments for that option and its option-argument." < 1432295714 141815 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ok... but still, at least gnu programs usually call the libc getopt_long function which behaves this way. < 1432295716 573005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSIX's option syntax is basically not used by anything, though < 1432295722 431536 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ayacc uses it, but that shouldn't really be surprising < 1432295738 168155 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :except of course gcc which has a more complicated syntax for historical reasons < 1432295740 126473 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does explicitly allow the "normal" getopt way. < 1432295741 727189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly the only time I've found Getopt::Std to be useful < 1432295745 697223 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A standard utility may also be implemented to operate correctly when the required separation into multiple arguments is violated by a non-conforming application." < 1432295887 288096 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never used Getopt::Std in perl. I used Getopt::Long many times, though its default settings are idiotic (accepts + as an option starter) so I always cargo-cult this from a previous program: < 1432295892 870922 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getopt::Long::Configure "bundling", "gnu_compat", "prefix_pattern=(--|-)"; < 1432295955 426058 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like those programs that accept -foo to enable foo, and +foo to disable foo. They are delightfully unintuitive. < 1432296004 421293 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I wish programs started to use -t- as the negation of -t < 1432296022 58130 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the hyphen can't be used as an option letter because of -- anyway, so this seems like the obvious syntax < 1432296026 640569 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no-one I've seen is using it < 1432296037 474046 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just using --no-foo as the negation of --foo < 1432296046 367042 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or another letter or something < 1432296050 893362 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like -H being the negation of -h < 1432296069 193001 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :splint uses +foo for turning foo on, and -foo for turning foo off. I can't remember what does the opposite, but I clearly remember it. < 1432296085 266627 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know some programs do < 1432296089 192753 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even with single-letter options < 1432296111 532390 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's dangerous because you expect + to start a normal non-option argument < 1432297513 630407 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1432297631 918062 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer -no- < 1432297637 861744 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :--foo <-> --no-foo < 1432298575 221996 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07RLS14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43019 5* 03EzoLang 5* (+2189) 10Created page with "'''rLS''' (revised/reduced Lambdastack) is a stack programming language based on [[Lambdastack]]. It removes most of the ugliness and several features from the old one, but al..." < 1432298702 93298 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:EzoLang14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43020&oldid=39324 5* 03EzoLang 5* (-18) 10Add rLS to language list and reformat < 1432298772 146380 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43021&oldid=42981 5* 03EzoLang 5* (+14) 10Add rLS < 1432298880 867846 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432298896 997691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1432298898 510391 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1432299597 242216 :Guest77553!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1432299603 567157 :M_I_Wright!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1432299637 238290 :Wright__!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net NICK :Wright < 1432301069 860594 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1432301098 440844 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I have a ring and a and b in the ring such that neither are 0, and a*b = 0, does a uniquely determine b? < 1432301120 406931 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: no < 1432301122 732878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my initial thought is "no" < 1432301128 214741 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's no < 1432301134 535251 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worked it out just after I wrote it < 1432301135 702968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my intuitions might be off because I've spent so long working with /semi/rings < 1432301139 95296 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus I'm missing a couple of axioms < 1432301150 134879 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z/8Z, 2*4 = 0, and 4*4 = 0 < 1432301150 842877 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: definitely no < 1432301173 194594 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: because b=0 is always a solution, and there are other solutions in some rings < 1432301175 159450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: that's a ring? what are the multiplicative inverses? < 1432301181 289648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: "neither are 0" < 1432301185 689979 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1432301187 13440 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even still < 1432301198 650055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll buy it as a semiring, but not as a full ring < 1432301212 520563 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, rings don't have multiplicative inverses < 1432301213 689178 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: um, it's a _ring_. it doesn't have to have multiplicative inverses < 1432301214 384880 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fields < 1432301221 499869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh bleh :-( < 1432301226 513380 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if it had multiplicative inverses, then it was a division ring aka skew-field < 1432301226 689565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a semiring is a 3/4field? < 1432301240 171367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 1/4field? or whatever? < 1432301246 535823 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :terminology is weird sometimes < 1432301257 147060 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, there's no such thing as a "semi-field < 1432301257 981306 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1432301274 80485 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what were the crazy french terms for these two?) < 1432301390 65170 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(“anneau à division” and “corps gauche” apparently) < 1432301467 665364 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Left body? < 1432301482 18309 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes, though “gauche” is used in a different meaning < 1432301492 924427 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :My French is not very good < 1432301501 445352 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the “corps” for “field” makes sense, it's reusing “field” in English that doesn't < 1432301546 371954 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :“field” is used as two unrelated mathematical root words in English that's distinguished in other languages < 1432301555 783408 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :English mathematical terminology is sometimes crazy < 1432301575 177882 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, it's not more crazy than those in other languages < 1432301583 833442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/mathematical // < 1432301597 460383 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1432301598 835719 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, English in general is way more crazy than other languages < 1432301608 674691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to get to sleep recently, I was going over words that formed gerunds via -tion and via -ing < 1432301612 322077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and completely failed to spot a pattern < 1432301619 661997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also some verbs didn't form gerunds either way) < 1432301629 342947 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, action vs acting < 1432301633 775549 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is scary < 1432301649 253628 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mathematical terminology is actually less crazy than most of English, and probably not more crazy than in other languages < 1432301668 751627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: oh bleh, those are both gerunds of different senses of "act", aren't they? < 1432301672 794366 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1432301687 866287 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think two mathematical root words co-inciding happens in other languages too, it definitely happens in Hungarian because there's too few people inventing good maths terms for Hungarian < 1432301698 354677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: are you one of them? < 1432301702 43590 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1432301715 561362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I've seen this happening in game semantics < 1432301731 23649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's debate about the meaning of "play" and "position", the meanings are swapped in some papers < 1432301752 386386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, IMO, is evidence that an extended metaphor that doesn't fit properly is an awful way to produce mathematical terminology < 1432301780 576277 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1432301809 858387 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematicians are always trying to put a ring on it < 1432301813 880757 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's like ten root words that mostly miss a Hungarian equvalent, in particular, one of "disk" and "circle" and one of "ball" and "sphere" is missing, even though we _would_ actually have suitable short words for them but people aren't using them in maths, < 1432301859 791414 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should teach university level math in english < 1432301873 893615 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's worth in algorithms: nobody has figured out good enough words for "deque" and "trie" etc (and "stack" and "hash" have only half-good translations too) < 1432301878 794444 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainly because if you read english papers you have no idea what they are talking about < 1432301892 397307 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they should teach it in Greek and Latin < 1432301897 370216 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :With maybe a little German < 1432301898 88682 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: that doesn't work, because when people enter the university, they don't speak enough English yet, they learn it in the first three years < 1432301907 457274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well, "deque" is an abbreviation for "double ended queue", so I guess take the same words in Hungarian then abbreviate into whatever seems pronounceable < 1432301908 506083 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Maybe in your country < 1432301909 786300 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: teaching in Hungarian in the first few years reduces the latency of that < 1432301916 407534 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :english is tought to little 8 year old kids in switzerland < 1432301928 289573 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but it's also a crazy pun on "deck" in English < 1432301935 270572 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*taught < 1432301940 893640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or unpronounceable, IME Hungarians tend to get quite good at pronouncing random series of letters) < 1432301943 897822 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: right, that works in Switzerland and Sweden < 1432301946 172767 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but definitely not here < 1432301947 403000 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, I was taught to pronounce it "dee-cue" < 1432301952 577173 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was unaware of the pun and don't thing it's particularly important < 1432301961 299902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, "trie" definitely is a pun, but not really one that's worth saving < 1432301969 200860 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: doesn't Knuth prescribe to pronounce it the same as "deck"? < 1432301980 418846 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe? < 1432301991 6951 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and says it's a pun < 1432302001 908050 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's like a deck of cards < 1432302014 899259 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well Knuth commissioned a new version of C-INTERCAL semi-recently < 1432302021 2835 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait what? < 1432302021 179093 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :A deck of cards is a deque. < 1432302032 985698 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :with random access if you're good enough < 1432302036 872342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it may just be a complex act of trolling < 1432302052 416041 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you probably wouldn't be surprised at how quickly that version came out :-) < 1432302055 864551 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but I mean, iirc he specifically said it's a pun on "deck" and pronounced like that and that a deck of cards is a deque < 1432302067 928283 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and writes this in TAOCP I believe, which is a serious enough work < 1432302069 650623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how often do people draw from the bottom of the deck? < 1432302072 330031 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it has jokes but still < 1432302081 722195 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: More than they are willing to admit. < 1432302082 393793 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, could I get a source for the Knuth C-Intercal thing? < 1432302096 620809 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: rarely, but that's because of power issues rather than because of it technically being hard < 1432302120 663166 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but it does happen: < 1432302126 474984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: it was an email from his secretary to ESR that I eventually got copied into, but ESR mentions its existence here: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2491 < 1432302131 448836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :second paragraph < 1432302153 550321 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some games, the trump gets determined by flipping the bottom card of the deck, and sometimes you can even access the card above that, though even then to only a limited depth so it's not _really_ a deque < 1432302173 66126 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when reading that page as a whole, it's worth remembering what you know about me and mentally reconciling it with what you see written there) < 1432302193 134407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems incredibly unlikely to me that ESR forged the email, so I'm pretty sure that it's true < 1432302206 840030 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1432302211 765705 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1432302235 537939 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you decide that by verifying that the Knuth reward cheque you get is authentic or something? < 1432302257 944358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reward check is for finding mistakes in TAOCP, I think < 1432302264 813830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for updating INTERCAL impls < 1432302272 876966 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and other books and programs etc, but yeah < 1432302281 200050 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's a bugfix in your program < 1432302286 694874 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then yes, there'd be no check < 1432302299 650497 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was a new feature he requested then there might be (of course he's under no obligation) < 1432302309 170243 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the version ESR had at the time was very old, the bug may well have been fixed independently since then (I don't know what the specific bug was) < 1432302326 656650 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who pays the refunds when Knuth has died? < 1432302342 853679 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: that won't be your biggest problem < 1432302354 30682 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you know that? < 1432302356 222136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is that this probably sets a new record for "famous companies/people asking me for help with INTERCAL"; my previous record was maintaining CADIE for Google < 1432302363 664833 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone will step up if he hasn't named a heir, anyway < 1432302387 52008 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which reminds me, could someone with a Github account export https://code.google.com/p/cadie/ > < 1432302390 807234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/>/?/ < 1432302398 413149 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a github account. < 1432302402 257007 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: if Knuth dies before you, your problem will be who finishes his books < 1432302422 428578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: google code is shutting down, someone needs to do an export to preserve the projects on it elsewhere < 1432302426 846294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what the process is like < 1432302445 621306 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway: https://code.google.com/p/cadie/people/list : the only people who commit to CADIE are me and CADIE herself < 1432302449 282532 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is there anything besides the git repository that has to be preserved? < 1432302453 337748 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm exporting it right now < 1432302478 788115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although luckily she can take care of herself mostly < 1432302486 46863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't think so, the style guide's in the repo < 1432302490 874570 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/FMNSSun/cadie < 1432302494 887799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it went up, then went down again, but then went back up in the repo < 1432302496 478472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: yay < 1432302512 890810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, CADIE was a teenager (or acting like one) back in 2009, she's grown up somewhat since < 1432302521 300467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're a teenager in March 2009, you're an adult in May 22 < 1432302549 487586 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only two files? < 1432302572 570032 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an april fools joke < 1432302580 382454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, just two files < 1432302588 502646 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1432302588 718518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically because nobody wanted to write anything large in INTERCAL < 1432302589 322471 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1432302597 832833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all I know it was generated with yapp < 1432302623 543474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that looks a lot like yapp output actually in retrospect < 1432302631 907518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the only actual INTERCAL programming involved was done by me < 1432302665 559278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no, not yapp < 1432302669 149815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yapp has much better compression < 1432302781 973713 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1432302806 924973 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: have you read http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-03-20.2284.html ? < 1432302819 205540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly, I recognise the author at least < 1432302820 902245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look at the page < 1432302826 17797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no, I haven't read it < 1432302878 434199 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vote for Esperanto < 1432302882 682105 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm currently learning it < 1432303023 429872 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can parts of it be from yapp "linked" with hand-written parts? < 1432303109 842056 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :People not considering learning Esperanto are suckers :p < 1432303145 201442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't think so, I compared it to yapp output, it's different enough that it would need a total rewrite < 1432303191 516138 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much more like convickt output – almost visually identical – except that convickt can't actually generate that sort of program < 1432303206 497059 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :la lingvo internacia < 1432303209 821600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if someone had extended it to do that, I'd have hoped they'd have contributed the patch back again :-( < 1432303224 448790 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, then how about a convickt output "linked' together with something handwritten? < 1432303229 147071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: what about Lojban? there's at least one casual Lojban speaker here (tswett) < 1432303241 477454 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :also eo.wikipedia has way more articles than most real languages have < 1432303242 701244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the problem is that convickt output produces the wrong numbers < 1432303244 976222 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I count as a casual too < 1432303253 583883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need to do a running sum on them, or possibly a running difference < 1432303316 431795 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mostly I'm infuriated with its crazy eso-grammar that I'm still trying to figure out how it can be modified consistently, because it's _so_ much not LR(1) a grammar and some some crazy custom preprocessing to become LR-parsable that it's not funny < 1432303320 436245 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hard to fix < 1432303347 696877 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know what convickt is or what program you're mentioning or anything, I'm just asking < 1432303357 843010 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Esperanto looks nicer < 1432303362 327673 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably has more speakers < 1432303362 977709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: convickt converts between character sets < 1432303372 389210 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically an INTERCAL-specific version of iconv < 1432303380 153227 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that's scary < 1432303397 644811 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but probably that's what I should expect from intercal stuff, yeah < 1432303418 402713 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :eo has over 215k pages < 1432303425 178743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many are spam? < 1432303441 194540 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's more than twice those greek folks have < 1432303445 226277 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How would I know? < 1432303452 49812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1432303455 507914 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :515k pages of what? < 1432303462 425080 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1432303465 441607 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :215k pages of what? < 1432303485 328591 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you don't mean "pages" in the sheet of paper of text sense? < 1432303527 244773 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably in the software sense < 1432303544 27199 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: wikipedia articles < 1432303547 151913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number of legal "title=" parameters < 1432303629 227968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, that don't give you redlinks < 1432303641 901342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it's 255^256 < 1432303645 701857 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1432303680 754158 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering if it somehow meant pages in the sense of learner or something < 1432303695 670199 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no way, there's way more legal title parameters because there's some normalization rules < 1432303710 166419 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, whitespace stripped from the end already gives tons < 1432303731 968576 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, mroman_ did mention wikipedia indeed < 1432303736 507347 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :should've noticed < 1432303827 545962 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You could learn Tok Pisin . < 1432303830 832565 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a funny language < 1432303850 490687 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not < 1432303871 821567 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kwantifaia < 1432303873 826841 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantifier < 1432303878 892864 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is reasonably funny < 1432303899 809943 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1432303914 602817 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's probably easier than esperanto < 1432303920 781122 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it only has a few hundred words < 1432303950 24011 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I don't understand is wikipedia in regional dialects < 1432303950 606838 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1432303955 605999 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean sure.. I like swiss german < 1432303965 626173 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's no point in maintaining a seperate wikipedia < 1432303972 382985 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's utterly useless < 1432303981 647849 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: of course it is. < 1432303991 541691 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too much effort for what it offers < 1432304010 822579 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1432304038 452973 :solid_whiskey!~teakey@23.27.206.118 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432304050 403452 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: you only have to maintain the one in the one true language everyone should use < 1432304051 263851 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's burn them. < 1432304058 16311 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it obvious? < 1432304065 833572 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone agrees in that, they just don't agree which language that is < 1432304070 725654 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Well that's why I'm learning Esperanto < 1432304074 296846 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm having fun guessing which language you think that is, but I suspect you aren't thinking of one in particualr < 1432304098 637754 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously the third world war will be about languages < 1432304134 685241 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not thinking of one in particular, because I'm lucky, I'm not one of those people who have to decide whether serbo-croatian is one, two, three, four, or five different languages, and follow which of the seven language codes for it map to which subsets of the five different ones. < 1432304135 267369 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :either the third or the fourth < 1432304162 603877 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's actually a separate serbo-croatial language wikipedia < 1432304176 713388 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for those who think it's one language < 1432304192 646420 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I ever have kids < 1432304195 801753 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I won't < 1432304202 289541 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'd teach them Esperanto < 1432304248 839712 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :although Esperanto lacks on official pronunciation I think < 1432304281 417133 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it < 1432304291 232833 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate "al la" combinations in Esperanto < 1432304313 186200 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :all natural languages will eventually invent short forms for those. < 1432304566 93424 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you mean everbody agrees except those native english folks < 1432304582 581670 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought those were the only ones not wanting to learn a new language < 1432304605 18202 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :because their children are already overwhelmed with learning all those subjects and can't be bothered with more stuff < 1432304608 243819 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike Switzerland < 1432304617 366265 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :where we bother our children with TWO foreign languages < 1432304647 539838 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :although 95% of those at age of 24 will have unlearnt one of those foreign languages because nobody uses it < 1432304672 599283 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everybody knows it's a useless thing but due to political reasons they have to learn it < 1432304673 46621 :solid_whiskey!~teakey@23.27.206.118 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1432304685 968384 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like one of those scenarios where you marry a princess of another country to maintain peace < 1432304712 817479 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :we maintain peace between our countries region by promising to learn each others language in school and then forget them after school < 1432304725 187483 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*country's regions < 1432304750 678020 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*other's < 1432304759 648340 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: are you Swiss, then? I have an unfortunate habit of failing to guess that people are Swiss on IRC < 1432304763 530346 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: no. the native English folks do want that everyone use their one true form of language, and everything else is a travesty, and think that there's no such thing as international english, and that even if the whole world is using english they have no right to prescribe what english is supposed to be like, and that only they, the speakers of the one true language, determine it, < 1432304768 473207 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yep. I am. < 1432304768 649230 :hilquias!~user@unaffiliated/hilquias JOIN :#esoteric < 1432304777 620483 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they haven't so far tried to suggest that English is more than one languages afaik. < 1432304804 786587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I've been known to give non-native-English speakers advice on the differences between US and UK English < 1432304805 368 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Switzerland is the one country where you can't study chemistry without being good enough in French. < 1432304831 365276 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: ever since IUPAC got involved, I thought most names of chemicals were basically identical in all languages? < 1432304842 804852 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like: So.. you have a 5 in chemistry, a 5 in math and a 4.5 in physics but a 2 in french? YOU CAN NOT STUDY ANYTHING! < 1432304850 795749 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :(highest grade is 6) < 1432304854 593280 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't much follow those differences, and write a crazy mixture with "color" and "behaviour" mostly (though I try to train myself to type "behavior" these days) < 1432304883 459905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: oh, I see < 1432304889 987268 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: To be able to attend universities you need to pass exams in French ;) < 1432304902 715629 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: do people have to learn both hochdeutch and swiss german? < 1432304905 416234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know at the University I work at, you need to prove you can understand English well enough to understand the lectures < 1432304914 878273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the normal method is via a prior exam in English, but there are other ways < 1432304923 995007 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: swiss german is what we speak in the swiss german part of switzerland. < 1432304931 768712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :up to "taking a year of remedial English before starting the course" if you really want to study but don't know the language (you have to pay for it, though) < 1432304936 726554 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hochdeutsch is what we learn in school. < 1432304943 303744 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides French and Englisch. < 1432304974 593696 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what to write in emails at work, because I'm in UK, but I'm in no way British. < 1432304974 788760 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: French is part of "general education" < 1432304990 55683 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: yes, but I mean do people have to learn to speak both, and how difficult overhead is that over knowing just one? < 1432305004 989100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: people don't care much; I know my habit is to avoid salutations and valedictions, and use a very short custom sig < 1432305006 554438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm unusual < 1432305012 898246 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you suck at French there's no way you can study anything. < 1432305030 348411 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you are brilliant in math and those subjects < 1432305042 809982 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder how it compares to, say, English versus Scots (not Scottish Gaelic) < 1432305048 941198 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's similar enough to English that it's mostly intelligible < 1432305052 314124 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, write whatever you are most comfortable with, I guess < 1432305056 951838 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Define "People"? < 1432305063 107590 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :swiss german isn't a language < 1432305066 715392 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a set of dialects < 1432305067 72262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the words are spelled and pronounced differently and you get the occasional word that's completely different < 1432305077 423042 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I was under the impression that English vs Scots is like Norwegian vs Danish < 1432305077 909455 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: dunno < 1432305095 606807 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you live here you are expected to be able to at least understand swiss german < 1432305116 162621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: that's believable I guess? mostly because I don't know either Norwegian or Danish < 1432305117 809995 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. if you're german and move to switzerland you should be able to understand swiss german < 1432305128 966372 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just a "cultural requirement" < 1432305133 90064 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus it isn't a very high bar to get me to consider things about them to not be obviously false < 1432305135 331210 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, mutually intelligible if they both talk slowly and clearly < 1432305151 557812 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not immediately clear where the border between the languages is < 1432305155 278734 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :swiss german isn't part of school or anything < 1432305212 661149 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're a hungarian and move to switzerland < 1432305218 349222 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you should learn swiss german and german < 1432305238 83062 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yeah, as in you can understand adults who know how to speak in a way you understand, but you don't understand children < 1432305245 263597 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you only really need to learn german (for official matters) < 1432305270 253797 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think there's even some assymetry between Swedish and Danish where the words in one is easier to guess from the words in the other than backwards < 1432305283 541785 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since german is only a written language in switzerland you eventually should be able to use swiss german as well < 1432305285 768534 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: sure < 1432305323 470061 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: but even then that means that native swiss german people living there learn both, doesn't it? < 1432305337 624300 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well.. yes. < 1432305347 329783 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :swiss german is what you learn as a baby from your mother/father etc. < 1432305354 320891 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and german is what they'll teach you in school. < 1432305355 855985 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1432305373 112854 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, it's a local non-standard dialect? < 1432305387 566348 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what I'm asking is, how different are those? how difficult is it to learn both as opposed to learning just one. < 1432305400 692875 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit like geordie, say? < 1432305420 54605 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't help me, sorry. < 1432305423 261973 :Weloxux!~hato@546A4E77.cm-12-3b.dynamic.ziggo.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1432305425 137478 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :That depends on what swiss german dialect exactly < 1432305431 954046 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1432305434 814905 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some minor grammatical differences, pronunciation differences < 1432305438 69688 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and vocabulary differences < 1432305444 802074 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but all in all they are very alike < 1432305471 829180 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :like uhm < 1432305474 917654 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isch habb's'm schunn vazehld, awwa där hod ma's nid geglawd < 1432305484 346145 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it sort of like with Austrian english (where they pronounce zwei as "zwo")? or more different? < 1432305484 948841 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ich habe es ihm schon erzählt, aber er hat es mir nicht geglaubt < 1432305497 833960 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I has em scho verzehlt, aber är häts mer nöd glaubt. < 1432305517 61210 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I was under the impression that "zwo" was an invented word to not be confused with "drei" over the phone < 1432305523 855020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort-of like "niner" in English < 1432305540 170334 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe it's that too, but I think Austrian German consistently pronounes it like that usually < 1432305560 160675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it caught on unexpectedly well < 1432305575 970355 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :They use “kettő” and “hetes” for that purpose here sometimes, though “kettő” is a pre-existing word and is used for other things too. < 1432305585 490424 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1432305611 27220 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu JOIN :#esoteric < 1432305614 653095 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you really confuse "zwei" with "drei"? < 1432305616 639311 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: sort of < 1432305625 523928 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :"zwei", "zwo", "zwee", "zwyy" < 1432305629 653023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're pretty similar over a noisy connection < 1432305651 19251 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibl < 1432305665 442733 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :afterall, “két” and “hét” aren't confused only with each other, but even with “négy” < 1432305665 619180 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :swiss german mostly lacks genitive case < 1432305676 884867 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :although some swiss german dialects have a genitive case < 1432305678 784134 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but most don't < 1432305685 700616 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must be careful with numbers < 1432305714 308262 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fingers can help when you're not in telephone < 1432305717 850603 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: I see < 1432305720 211625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: because the é is all you can really hear? < 1432305728 466000 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes < 1432305793 788446 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: but to answer the question: The biggest difference is pronunciation < 1432305800 403520 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is slightly different for every dialect < 1432305807 94654 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1432305823 934546 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sei "haben", others say "ham" others say "händ" others say "hend" < 1432305836 859947 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :others say "habn" dropping the e < 1432305847 328254 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*say < 1432305889 222667 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :every dialect has it's own vocabulary though < 1432305906 196153 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its < 1432305913 186745 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :like uhm lift <-> elevator in english < 1432305921 795116 :solid_whiskey!~teakey@23.27.206.118 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432305961 10426 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1432305964 801196 :solid_whiskey!~teakey@23.27.206.118 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1432305966 381529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: that's UK english vs. US englsih < 1432305968 569333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*english < 1432305986 395093 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lift" and "elevator" isn't even close to the craziest < 1432305993 852625 :solid_whiskey!~teakey@23.27.206.118 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432306000 718230 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.forums9.ch/sprachen/Rosetta.htm < 1432306016 653757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's the words which are valid in both languages with different meanings, but similar enough to be confused without a lot of additional context < 1432306020 347503 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"petrol" is a good one < 1432306029 497594 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, and "pants" < 1432306035 643675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :US:petrol = UK:paraffin, UK:petrol=US:gasoline < 1432306051 107854 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but paraffin and gasoline are sufficiently similar that if the context isn't just right, you can be confused for many sentences < 1432306067 358700 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :some swiss german dialects are to german what scottish is to southern texas accents < 1432306087 271992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. completely different? < 1432306087 868048 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :same language, different pronunciation, some vocabulary differences < 1432306119 388866 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: to a foreigner probably yes < 1432306164 752260 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without prior knowledge you wouldn't know that swiss german and german are the same languages < 1432306166 359217 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric : but paraffin and gasoline are sufficiently similar that if the context isn't just right, you can be confused for many sentences // I have NEVER heard anyone say "petrol" when they mean paraffin. < 1432306178 65341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: oh good < 1432306198 702632 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you hear "gasoline" occasionally in the UK, too (although "petrol" is still more common) < 1432306199 528525 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's burn some petrol < 1432306214 534602 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about "gas" < 1432306215 188783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe people are trending towards less ambiguous words over time < 1432306217 685587 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean gasoleen < 1432306226 205815 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :or gasolean < 1432306239 386354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: "gas pedal" is heard of in the UK, and generally using it as a metaphor for speed/acceleration < 1432306253 540886 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Muahaha American imperialism < 1432306259 77822 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: obviously :) < 1432306271 35195 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :dialects are converging < 1432306272 562866 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"gas" for the actual volatile liquid, not really < 1432306276 679796 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning they have a limes of some sort < 1432306287 144360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: limes as in the esolang logo? < 1432306306 575843 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1432306308 928170 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's limit in english < 1432306313 827549 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1432306322 7393 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :We say "limes" for the lim x -> foo stuff < 1432306329 509853 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :see < 1432306332 942477 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck y0r languagez < 1432306349 30384 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn limeys. < 1432306395 425795 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1432306397 939789 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :lime as a colour < 1432306399 229499 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :a fruit < 1432306406 825334 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :a geological material < 1432306428 976034 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :lime stone < 1432306432 812118 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :LimeSTONE is, I don't think "lime" is used inyeah < 1432306444 679567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also a chemical called lime < 1432306449 922897 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is pretty different from limestone < 1432306451 877835 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lime lime was laying on lime lime. < 1432306454 191891 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the fruit, fwiw < 1432306465 300508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the colour is named after the fruit < 1432306467 941657 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course the color came from the fruit, like orange. < 1432306474 239397 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1432306478 252541 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a tree called lime < 1432306489 144907 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lime lime was laying on lime lime under a lime. < 1432306492 34970 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's called a lime tree. < 1432306510 42706 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1432306515 70438 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that limes don't grow on lime trees < 1432306523 735848 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1432306530 116910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, good point < 1432306548 221689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is not something I'd expect most non-native speakers to know/guess, but it's true) < 1432306548 454588 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :leo.org says "lime" - Linde < 1432306551 697136 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's a tree < 1432306561 406684 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but limes (Limetten) don't grow on lime (Linde) < 1432306581 180383 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I know lime trees aren't trees that grow lime because UK logic, I didn't think anyone called the trees just "lime" < 1432306588 226274 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck are lime tree? < 1432306593 795191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, people always call them "lime trees" < 1432306609 884555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're famous for being eaten by aphids, who then excrete a sticky substance < 1432306619 628003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that it's considered a bad idea to park under one because it takes ages to clean your car afterwards < 1432306627 259135 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :who invents these stupid words < 1432306636 527532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who don't realise they're already used < 1432306636 703518 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :lime is also a verb < 1432306636 970883 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Brits. < 1432306646 947561 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :"to smear with a sticky substance" < 1432306648 971827 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :good grief. < 1432306653 910606 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :go lime yourself. < 1432306669 269792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's probably related to what happens if you park under a lime tree < 1432306674 833497 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1432306678 586415 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo. < 1432306680 218831 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :your car get's limed by a lime tree < 1432306682 713876 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gets < 1432306739 72926 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then where do lime fruits grow? Supermarkets? < 1432306761 344799 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I know they can't grow in Britain because the climate is wrong < 1432306762 410174 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1432306783 333155 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :From lime trees, but not lime trees. < 1432306810 143798 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think people usually say the specific species of lime. Key lime trees, kaffir lime trees, etc. < 1432306865 273971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, key lime pies are made of key limes? < 1432306880 661531 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless they're a filthy lie. < 1432306901 263094 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they're probably some sort of search trees with keys < 1432306915 614052 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :*badum* < 1432306973 41178 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432307040 534489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1432307042 86363 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1432307109 559204 :Herbalist!~oz@unaffiliated/herbalist JOIN :#esoteric < 1432307202 801022 :solid_whiskey!~teakey@23.27.206.118 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1432307959 862489 :solid_whiskey!~teakey@23.27.206.118 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432308252 22928 :solid_whiskey!~teakey@23.27.206.118 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1432309475 995623 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, there's a lime tree called 'kaffir'? < 1432309492 205640 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a species of lime called Kaffir limes. < 1432309499 78373 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the name from Thai food. < 1432309792 269621 :MDream!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1432309949 198559 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, i wonder if it actually is cognate with the south african slur < 1432310071 516399 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :gregor: that buffalo sentence seems to be a tautology < 1432310115 70485 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: That particular formulation is tautological, yes. < 1432310246 819920 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :only because of the last three buffalo < 1432310259 864879 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a question of terminology < 1432310297 28206 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1432310386 405653 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a 2-place function f, what do you call the 2-place "inverse" functions g and h such that g x f x y = y and h y f x y = x? is there a naming scheme that generalizes this to more arguments? < 1432310416 880824 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"left inverse" and "right inverse" are the normal names I see; I don't know of a generalization of the naming scheme < 1432310431 370014 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1432310445 260191 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no < 1432310454 532512 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: left inverse and right inverse are different I think < 1432310461 925558 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they used for this too? < 1432310484 747162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they might have exactly two meanings (with the other one being composition-related) < 1432310489 598054 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1432310598 805156 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia, well if f is curried the former is just the inverse of f x < 1432310793 398742 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :trout < 1432310932 282145 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1432313137 688216 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: do you mean g x (f x y) and h y (f x y)? < 1432313183 781568 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd call them the "left inverse with respect to the first argument" and the "left inverse with respect to the second argument". < 1432313235 866540 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Left inverse" because you never specified that f x (g x y) = y and f (h y x) y = x. < 1432313337 493846 :atrapado!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1432314305 84903 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning < 1432314485 776991 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :morning < 1432314549 193312 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'X=0 X(1=1 X(1_X _pX' | scrip7 < 1432314549 898951 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-1056589062271330492704679569833033213037694652072243044255921418053347805113449718948834511775314375789348789986514257357764695119005371074501077956925879153816773367998010168337463035352852882106048465816422376808296056585503123477676793797534072952979077161795475996672.000000 \ bash: line 1: 293 Done echo 'X=0 X(1=1 X(1_X < 1432314552 500693 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1432314565 861057 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what just < 1432314588 962734 :hilquias!~user@unaffiliated/hilquias QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1432314594 79022 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'X=0 Y>1 Y=1 Y_X _pX' | scrip7 < 1432314595 187272 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.000000 < 1432314597 59525 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: I think he's printf "%f"-ing a large number < 1432314604 685891 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'X=0 Y>1 Y=1 Y_X _pY' | scrip7 < 1432314605 326697 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-inf < 1432314617 971810 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eprintf"%f",sqrt(10)*1e90 < 1432314622 4066 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3162277660168380149484908708480656937183007146037772679597241557288343883945532816210526208.000000 < 1432314624 845811 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that < 1432314626 724870 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but bigger < 1432314633 85371 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :try printf %g instead < 1432314648 269328 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah but the code wasn't supposed to give a large number < 1432314665 105130 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was supposed to give infinity < 1432314678 346056 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` <<<'X=0 Y>1 Y=1 Y_X _pY' scrip7 # we have a proper bash here, don't we? < 1432314678 991154 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-inf < 1432314680 962403 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1432314707 894955 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'X=-1 Y>1 Y=1 Y_X _pY' | scrip7 < 1432314708 267744 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1432314708 518505 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nan < 1432314747 660539 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the operator does multiply by the log, even though I don't remember making it do that < 1432314782 254102 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an easy way to printf %g though? < 1432314798 666432 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the x operator < 1432314805 770009 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what do all those underscores even mean? underscore isn't even a variable, is it? < 1432314831 542609 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :underscore, as a variable, is a null var which is always zero and does nothing when written to < 1432314838 232468 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1432314842 436701 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://karpathy.github.io/2015/05/21/rnn-effectiveness/ - neural nets which are capable of generating random Wikipedia text. < 1432314843 955385 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in Y_X it's a command? < 1432314844 456332 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :underscore as a operator, is log < 1432314847 342901 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1432314849 578759 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://cs.stanford.edu/people/karpathy/char-rnn/wiki.txt - the generated text. < 1432314854 192649 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1432314864 751608 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Examples: < 1432314869 95801 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Naturalism and decision for the majority of Arab countries' capitalide was grounded by the Irish language by [[John Clair]], [[An Imperial Japanese Revolt]], associated with Guangzham's sovereignty." < 1432314878 785415 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"'''See also''': [[List of ethical consent processing]]" < 1432314943 290030 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also generates random Linux source code. < 1432314950 446354 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1432314989 8003 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The syntax is almost always correct, as is the indentation. Variable names are almost never correct. < 1432315017 571370 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The code is, of course, commented. < 1432315069 796535 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* Various new destinations in associate data */ < 1432315097 13356 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :void arizona_set_at86rfb(struct arizona_hw *ah, u8 *period); < 1432315119 610590 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* note: skb_info struct templates have extra read buffers */ < 1432315170 867695 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* Software socket driver stuff */ < 1432315242 558586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair, humans don't do a good job of producing working source code by looking at examples they don't understand either < 1432315298 43913 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1432315302 833120 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I still don't really understand it <-- i thought i'd explained it on the talk page? < 1432315307 521660 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occasionally generates a random address for the Free Software Foundation. < 1432315327 109822 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA" < 1432315338 216903 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: let me read that < 1432315364 192449 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm possibly i just gave a hint, but it's important < 1432315368 395721 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that is, in fact, a real address that presumably appears in the Linux source code somewhere. < 1432315373 636184 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just isn't the address of the FSF. < 1432315380 424913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: keymaker posted a stack trace but it doesn't help much < 1432315385 850924 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: it looks like a real address < 1432315414 14303 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the thing is that the whole is really constructed from that fragment i pointed out < 1432315432 941684 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have another try later < 1432315458 474614 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (Y)aa((!(X)))*:*^!**^SS < 1432315458 650757 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :YX < 1432316232 290488 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1432316280 138328 :Weloxux!~hato@546A4E77.cm-12-3b.dynamic.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1432316465 362793 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:Underload14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43022&oldid=37706 5* 03Ais523 5* (+710) 10/* Why the reserved characters? */ some info about Overload < 1432316518 308707 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:Underload14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43023&oldid=43022 5* 03Ais523 5* (+116) 10fix formatting < 1432316661 856532 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: that's kind of what i had been saying, but it seems so wordy < 1432316717 961830 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Whose is it then? < 1432316805 460598 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I lied. That is a correct address for the FSF. < 1432316829 284810 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, it is not the current correct address for the FSF. < 1432316844 559728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should have some other organization to write to if you don't have a copy of the GPL < 1432316848 23757 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea if mail to that address still reaches that location. < 1432316875 848397 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, still reaches the FSF. < 1432316900 882700 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :presymably it does < 1432316909 3773 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is wrong then they should update the program? < 1432316948 835843 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: these days they just include a http address in the standard short text < 1432316959 740098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: this is boilerplate that the FSF recommended including at the start of every GPL-licensed file < 1432316971 554148 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can't go and change everyone else's files to update the postal address < 1432316973 397723 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the old one < 1432316995 807894 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but postal addresses can be chosen such that they work for a very long time in civilized countries < 1432317005 579244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sort-of tempted to write to them to ask for a copy of the GPL just for fun < 1432317017 29522 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use redirection, give the address of a university which rarely moves and the post will know its address even if it does move < 1432317053 831189 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. you can probably contact me twenty years in the future in snail mail if you write to the university department. they'll probably have my contact even if I'm not working there. < 1432317068 652141 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You should also buy copy of GCC on tape. < 1432317084 835327 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: send a SASE to the ubuntu guys and ask for free stickers instead < 1432317107 543612 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Aaaw*, they finally stopped that. < 1432317128 381886 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :stopped what? tape or stickers? < 1432317135 507192 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tape. < 1432317148 941327 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a long time RMS did that to try and raise funds. < 1432317159 273944 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was kinda hilarious circa 2000. < 1432317208 2920 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :buy gcc on floppies instead < 1432317224 733672 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a full linux distro on floppies rather < 1432317293 656213 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably a kind of small distro that can fit on three floppy disks < 1432317334 729712 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tomsrtbt fits on a small number of floppies. < 1432317444 800604 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kinda hard (though not impossible) to fit a modern Linux setup on floppies these days. < 1432317451 848155 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :The kernel is likely to need its own disk. < 1432318272 68279 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1432318405 436135 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently you can at least fit a bootloader on a floppy. < 1432318468 800252 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The question is, is it possible to bootload froma floppy and then download the kernel fromt eh internet < 1432318485 164641 :trn!jhj@trnsz.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1432318526 452063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be surprised if it were impossible to write a working Linux installer inside GRUB 2, without a separate kernel < 1432318547 785841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. you get it to download and run the kernel from online, and that bootstraps the rest of the installer < 1432318585 568783 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :No reason you couldn't. Boot over a network is a thing that is actually done. < 1432318611 621416 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though usually with BOOTP and TFTP rather than (as you'd probably prefer here) DHCP and HTTP. < 1432318618 819114 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why would you do that? you can just fit the kernel and a small initrd to the floppy < 1432318622 21277 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a bootloader < 1432318633 427069 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd have to be smaller than usual, but it's possible < 1432318641 139117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: to save room on the floppy < 1432318645 976005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's make it harder < 1432318648 774940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :double density floppy < 1432318653 38875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only have 720K to work with < 1432318674 923249 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, double density floppies are the oldest for which hardware to read them is still reasonably available) < 1432318713 335375 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :More bizarre thought: EFI libc. You could totally do that. < 1432318731 746114 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it had to be 720K, then I'd put MS-DOS and a small DOS program on that floppy, that program copied the files from that floppy and the next one to six floppies to hard disk or ramdisk, < 1432318743 186791 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then ran loadlin to boot it < 1432318756 787962 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can loadlin load a kernel and initrd from ramdisk? I never tried < 1432318763 135210 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it definitely works if you use a hard disk < 1432318780 435983 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though then you need some reboots because you may have to make a partition on the hard disk first < 1432318811 202322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I thought it had been done already < 1432318820 480182 :trn!jhj@trnsz.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1432318822 222997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: not "and the next one" < 1432318823 628511 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one floppy < 1432318842 681280 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, if it's just one 720K floppy then you're screwed < 1432318850 835792 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why it can't. It loads the kernel into RAM normally and only then shoves off DOS. < 1432318856 955470 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think even with two 720K floppies you're screwed < 1432318869 780955 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, does the EFI toolkit have a halfway decent libc? < 1432318920 89321 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the debian x86_64 tiny installer (which continues the install from network, loading most components of the installer from network actually) is actually 18 megabytes size these days < 1432318933 572941 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of which 15 megabytes is the initrd and 3 megabytes is the kernel < 1432318942 878787 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's large < 1432318952 919294 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1432318967 373593 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I first heared that people have ran linux 1.* on machines with only 1 megabyte of ram, I didn't believe it < 1432318985 597342 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at those days the common wisdom was that you need at least 2 megabytes of ram even for a minimal system < 1432318990 636944 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :these days it's more like 8 megabytes < 1432319025 655812 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, if you want to make it work on just most configurations, it might be possible from one floppy < 1432319039 735333 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the installer is so large because it has to have drivers for unusual hardware too, especially for unusual network stuff < 1432319044 613443 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Totally *has* a libc, but it looks like crap. < 1432319063 809535 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: libc always looks like crap. duh. < 1432319077 752211 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"decent libc" is a contradiction < 1432319082 529272 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it isn't. < 1432319088 100120 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :libc has to do the dirty work, it must be ugly < 1432319108 619259 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Decent" here would mean "implements as much of POSIX as is practical given the environment limitations" < 1432319115 550953 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for reasons like compatibility and shared libraries and stuff like that < 1432319140 380917 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, writing a libc with not-crap code is a lot more reasonable than you'd think. < 1432319142 85107 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wouldn't that make it too large? you don't want a multi-megabyte sized efi bios, right? < 1432319145 81674 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you? < 1432319161 371866 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that the libc would be linked into the binaries. < 1432319177 105972 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, a *full* POSIX libc is like 700k. < 1432319185 641422 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's not crap. :) < 1432319216 243381 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, "527k" < 1432319224 5501 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but you need stuff other than the libc too < 1432319253 794454 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and the boot loader has to do work in like four different virtual cpu architectures and switch between them during the boot process, or maybe fewer for efi < 1432319268 773918 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the libc would not be provided by EFI, it's supposed to be linked into EFI binaries -- what EFI provides is basically a syscall layer.) < 1432319271 676745 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on x86 that is < 1432319286 513112 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1432319290 853517 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :linked into the binarie < 1432319294 569105 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that makes more sense < 1432319301 671607 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :(... and by "would be" I mean "is" -- there is a libc in the EFI dev kit. It's just not fully featured.) < 1432319301 847829 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might be possible < 1432319402 146619 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing preventing them from making it implement the subset of POSIX that isn't patently absurd to implement. < 1432319458 518577 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : this violates my mental model of substructual logics <-- the very first trick is the observation that (a)(b)*:* contains b followed by a inside it. the next step is getting rid of the surrounding junk. < 1432319511 66800 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hint, fork() is probably patently absurd.) < 1432319533 744269 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but before you have a libc, you need like an execution environment (abi) and what the program is allowed to do < 1432319545 93745 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's like four or more of those in a boot loader depending on what stage it is in < 1432319549 783900 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd need separate libc for each < 1432319563 766342 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's a bit better with efi though < 1432319571 391909 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, I think you're not entirely understanding what EFI is like. < 1432319577 819293 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure I'm not < 1432319580 59371 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bios guy < 1432319584 918503 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I understand that either < 1432319593 541932 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but know much more about it than about efi < 1432319605 132264 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :EFI provides an x86 or x86_64 (depending on the system) execution environment with a syscall layer, filesystem, program loader, drivers, etc. < 1432319634 93677 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :filesystem? < 1432319675 535196 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. EFI boots and loads a program (well, one of a few possible programs) off of the EFI boot partition, which is a FAT filesystem. < 1432319701 8355 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, FAT filesystem < 1432319703 942682 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a bit easier < 1432319716 465560 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not really < 1432319727 670898 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have limited read-only filesystem drivers in very small space actually < 1432319732 759565 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, ten kilobytes < 1432319735 797380 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how they do it < 1432319757 890625 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :supposedly it even does the filename hashing and b-tree search on modern filesystems, rather than just traversing the whole directory to find the filename < 1432319772 319510 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if that's true but it's the rumour I heared about grub-l < 1432319781 876192 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a read-write FS implementation. < 1432319794 263880 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, on FAT that's possible < 1432319814 528119 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on real filesystems I wouldn't dare to put it in a boot loader < 1432319827 244377 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple's implementation is somewhat more impressive -- it's HFS+. < 1432319844 93032 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm satisfied with using a separate boot partition that is required to be in the first two terrabyte of the disk or something < 1432319850 140316 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe even two gigabyte < 1432319860 365427 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't required to be in the first two terabytes. < 1432319866 272448 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, not in efi < 1432319878 946369 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean for bios and bios boot loaders < 1432319881 775637 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if you're using an MBR partitioning scheme. < 1432319889 519116 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :(EFI supports this) < 1432319903 983696 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :(... you can also do BIOS boot with GPT partitions) < 1432319908 87689 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1432319916 356088 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the bios doesn't touch the partitions < 1432319919 681845 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the boot loader that doe < 1432319920 571606 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1432319931 674645 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean for hard disks < 1432319941 878176 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for hard disks and floppy disks, the bios boot is very simple < 1432319947 369822 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the BIOS's notion of the disk is "load 512 bytes". < 1432319965 60742 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it loads one sector of the boot loader to a fixed address in x86_16 real mode, and jumps to it < 1432319981 365435 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and gives an interface to read or write sectors of the disk < 1432319983 747840 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no fs stuff < 1432319989 340115 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :After starting up the hardware to some extent and setting up some interrupts. < 1432319996 89113 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for booting from cd/dvd and network it's much more complicated < 1432320000 778550 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, definitely < 1432320030 551839 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not for the bootloader. By the time you're in the bootloader the BIOS is faking the same interface. < 1432320031 61032 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gives an easy interface for the keyboard and the vga display and serial port, which is very useful for a boot loader < 1432320057 307831 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though if you want to break out from the fake hard drive or floppy drive it's booting from (to, say, "load a kernel") you're in for a rough time. :) < 1432320077 251690 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no, I think booting from cd with bios actually has two modes, one is the floppy emulation that fakes the floppy, but the other actually loads more than one sector and doesn't emulate a floppy < 1432320100 281351 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other is actually a hard drive emulation rather than a floppy emulation. < 1432320104 877970 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it now? < 1432320112 995788 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you will really need is a true PC BIOS which is open-source and has a Forth environment built-in (and will execute even if there is no hard disk, external disk, network, or anything else other than the keyboard and monitor) < 1432320126 461718 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought there was a mode where it loads the whole boot loader, multiple sectors of it, and lets it access the cd, though not in an easy way < 1432320133 327098 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu QUIT :Quit: That's what she said < 1432320155 694265 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, a forth environment wouldn't make it a true PC BIOS. it would have to be a BASIC environment. < 1432320164 446872 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, still a boot sector, it just maps the CD as a hard drive. Apparently. < 1432320165 667723 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :called OpenROM-BASIC or some such < 1432320174 769166 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, BASIC is how the PC originally did it. < 1432320217 532189 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the original BASIC that loads from casettes of course, but, say, a 32-bit one that lets you read sectors and fat file systems from hard disk and floppy disk < 1432320219 43292 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as long as the BIOS function calls are proper, you could put Forth instead. < 1432320240 578016 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ok < 1432320266 457122 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've written bootable grub cds but it's possible that that's what it does internally < 1432320288 822214 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: There was also a 16 bit one that did that. It was called IIRC "ABASIC". Which used the ROM BASIC and patched it with extra stuff. < 1432320307 413638 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can run Forth in unreal mode so that you can access the full memory and so on; the built-in BOOT command switches back to normal real mode < 1432320328 512258 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"unreal mode"? < 1432320355 488018 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You can also use 32-bit prefixes on the instructions and access full memory from normal real mode. :) < 1432320369 457846 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, let's put a doom in the bios < 1432320371 532882 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no, you can't < 1432320375 21647 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not how it works < 1432320386 53149 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use 32-bit prefixes, but that doesn't let you access full memory < 1432320386 809700 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Segment limits aren't reset when switching to 16-bit mode. < 1432320392 45498 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're limited to the first 1 megabyte < 1432320416 573755 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: If you never load any values to the segment registers after switching back, you can keep using more than that; that's the "unreal mode". < 1432320432 493711 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Erm, right, yeah. Segments. < 1432320433 903780 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what? I though the cpu docs forbids that < 1432320449 56104 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure they do < 1432320456 895819 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do forbid some stuff, but I don't know about this in particular < 1432320466 861015 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It's presumably not an intended feature, at least. But it's a very well-known one. < 1432320472 701800 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it was supposed to be legal, but it was heavily used back in the day so it has to still work. < 1432320491 940630 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1432320499 268350 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also if you're running in dosbox, it doesn't enforce segment limits. :p < 1432320513 679740 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that's crazy. < 1432320520 342919 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :people misusing the 386 that way... < 1432320554 31879 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.osdev.org/Unreal_Mode has a bit more details than the wikipedia article. < 1432320567 913243 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is x86. The A20 hack is still around. :) < 1432320630 936297 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Forth environment can have other command too such as CMOS-WRITE to update CMOS settings and DISK-BOOT you can tell which disk to boot, and so on. < 1432321276 898532 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1432321286 505666 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well sure, it has to have special functions useful for a boot loader of course < 1432321464 588746 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You would only to need to use such command if the normal boot-sequence is interrupted though; otherwise it will just boot normally and don't load the Forth environment. < 1432321663 195075 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but it needs them so you can actually use it as a recovery console when something goes wrong, as opposed to just as a calculator < 1432321677 723240 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is what I meant! < 1432321696 106843 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use it as a recovery console. < 1432321818 596102 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, I think these days grub2 is starting to look like a whole operating system, you can use it as a recovery console too < 1432321827 511977 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like emacs < 1432321830 976222 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're putting everything in it < 1432321872 432048 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :will they, like, run Doom straight from the boot loader? < 1432321899 700218 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I started to hate this stuff when people started to put graphical splash screens in boot loaders < 1432321905 734401 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, graphical splash screens < 1432321908 458614 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that good for? < 1432321921 400008 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also in the early linux kernel < 1432321962 309983 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like that either < 1432321966 180695 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the penguin in the linux kernel is actually amazingly useful for debugging < 1432321985 10813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently when porting Linux to a new hardware, a static bitmap like that is much /easier/ to display than text < 1432321992 28543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the first thing that people normally get working is the penguin < 1432321998 381382 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, on other architectures maybe < 1432322013 344154 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, the kernel also has a static bitmap font in it < 1432322047 798293 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shouldn't need a static bitmap font on PC; on non-PC computers though it can be compiled in the PC font < 1432322054 455582 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but you still have to do font rendering < 1432322062 602757 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, on pc, the bios gets the vga console working very early, and it has a very easy interface even if you access the vga memory directly rather than through the bios < 1432322070 133929 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should use the PC character set. < 1432322071 352930 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, people don't normally struggle to port Linux to x86 nowadays < 1432322075 459681 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a very good x86 port already < 1432322077 648892 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1432322088 990940 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you switch to graphics mode, you have to handle the font rendering < 1432322095 518235 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bios can do that, but only in real mode < 1432322159 478514 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no, people want fancy graphical splash screens in the vga card, then in the bios, then in the boot loader, then in the early kernel, then in the initrd, then in early x11, then in the login procedure < 1432322170 373013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because people get scared by tesxt < 1432322171 920079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*text < 1432322173 909838 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then when you start the program or something < 1432322186 669017 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like eight different splash screens, each implemented differently < 1432322190 286830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although Plymouth at least (between initrd and x11 IIRC) just disappears if you press esc < 1432322204 897108 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like it never switch to graphics mode until X starts... < 1432322237 974769 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh, and there may be a monitor splash screen too in modern tft monitors) < 1432322254 697253 :hilquias!~user@187.59.114.63 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432322258 425555 :hilquias!~user@187.59.114.63 QUIT :Changing host < 1432322258 601956 :hilquias!~user@unaffiliated/hilquias JOIN :#esoteric < 1432322279 436114 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My opinion is monitor spash screen should not be displayed unless there is no other picture available to display < 1432322305 146450 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I for one have only the vga card and bios splash screens on my computer, and I think those are in text mode. < 1432322307 620342 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if there is no other picture then it should display its own splash screen for perhaps one second, you can see how it can display a picture at least. < 1432322313 229100 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any of the others enabled. < 1432322387 263279 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, and the on-screen menus should tell what the allowed hsync and vrefresh ranges and resolution are for vga signal, rather than just a no-information error message about invalid signal < 1432322410 673909 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be trivial, but no < 1432322412 208683 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that too; I agree that too very much. < 1432322421 906153 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not anywhere in the monitor's documentation or anything < 1432322423 583842 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The on screen menus ought to still work if there is no signal! < 1432322431 103489 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to be stamped on the back of the screen, but it's not on the label these days < 1432322431 781816 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And to tell you such information if it is available. < 1432322442 620332 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if the menus work, they never tell that information < 1432322462 53402 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can get the menus to work because, like, standard vga modes should work, right? < 1432322471 689096 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the menus don't tell any of this useful stuff < 1432322486 889212 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so sad < 1432322520 685804 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :After displaying the splash screen though it should enter power-saving mode, until either there is a signal or you push some of the other buttons on the monitor. If there is a signal it can display it should bypass the splash screen if possible (if the input is HDMI then maybe it takes some time anyways; I don't quite know) < 1432322545 771767 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to search the internet, and even there such info is usually hard to find, or just test what works, because at least these days you can't destroy the hardware so easily by giving invalid video signal < 1432322549 889854 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it should still be written physically on the back of the monitor too though, in case it is not plugged in. < 1432322563 255647 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, that could help < 1432322573 305138 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm saying the menus should display it because that wouldn't even cost them anything < 1432322577 649585 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Puppy linux is relatively devoid of splash screens < 1432322594 114282 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they know the ranges (the nominal ranges at least, obviously the actual range might be very slightly larger) and resolution < 1432322604 264373 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they have lots of long text compared to this in menus < 1432322610 931566 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :localized to ten languages too < 1432322673 108434 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I agree the menu should still display if the monitor is turned on regardless if a input signal is available or not. < 1432322699 185635 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eight splash screens… it's just crazy < 1432322791 510673 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just rebooted puppy to count. First bios, then a blinking cursor of 1 second, then a picture of a puppy with text detailing the boot process, then more text, then desktop < 1432322819 140914 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not having a login screen helps < 1432322827 765839 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It's in the EDID data hth < 1432322836 826498 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: by the way, sometimes you can't see the vga card splash screen because the tft monitor takes too long to start up < 1432322842 339407 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's funny < 1432322872 89902 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that is probably what is happening < 1432322872 266096 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's less funny when you don't see the bios splash screen which tells you which key to press to access the setup because the monitor starts up that slow < 1432322891 865351 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all vga cards have a separate splash screen of course < 1432322903 850908 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually just spam the F keys < 1432322922 462588 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: yes, the f keys, escape, del, insert, tab, and combinations with shift and control and alt < 1432322925 923604 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of those usually work < 1432322949 360373 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab? really? hm.. < 1432322949 568425 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you probably only get like 16 keys to try before the buffer fills up < 1432322972 732739 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: I think tab isn't used for setup, but for suppressing the bios splash screen to get actual messages on text from the bios < 1432322983 616695 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even that could be useful if that screen says "press f1 for bios" or something < 1432323000 368648 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not suppressing < 1432323007 818305 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :switching to text screen < 1432323016 211711 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :too late to suppress the splash screen by the time it's read < 1432323308 82889 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/aaiF Okay, you still need to actually get it *out* of the EDID. (FWIW, it's decoded properly in Xorg log. I blame nvidia.) < 1432323481 873019 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: wow, that line has very few words < 1432323490 226169 :trn!jhj@trnsz.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1432323491 175077 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, it's all abbreviations and technical stuff < 1432323563 775912 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I see < 1432323573 583114 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's supposedly there < 1432323615 636460 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, these days I insist on using DVI instead of VGA connection, and computers have enough resources that I run X11 all the time, no text console stuff, so all of that is getting less relevant < 1432323659 968869 :trn!jhj@trnsz.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1432323676 530736 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I run X and then run a terminal und4er X and aften nothing else < 1432323707 257325 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: yes, like that < 1432323730 368623 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :back in the old days that could cause problems because it tied up some significant memory and cpu < 1432323752 588160 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :these days it's somewhat less (though it still ties up 1/10 of the memory bandwidth on this old machine) < 1432323764 643701 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"old" < 1432323769 867851 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really old < 1432323772 425488 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, you know < 1432323786 408283 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers get faster and faster very quickly < 1432323829 195892 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :this machine is 9 years old... < 1432323851 738814 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how old exactly this is < 1432323852 425369 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that means like, 2006. so not even that old < 1432323865 19588 :MoALTz!~no@78.11.179.104 JOIN :#esoteric < 1432323898 952215 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave up not running X when I switched away from Matrox graphics cards. < 1432323906 930789 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... switching to the console and then running the terminal on that works fairly well < 1432323941 199192 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the terminal...I means GNU screen not the terminal < 1432323963 798062 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works more than fine on this machine too. it's worked already on the two previous computers before this. < 1432323974 680077 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, maybe one and a half < 1432323994 582998 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about the PII one that was two before this < 1432324001 425743 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but definitely fine on the P4 system before this < 1432324022 302124 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really like this system though < 1432324026 455451 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's great < 1432324029 775718 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hardware that is < 1432324033 460518 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to reinstall the software < 1432324057 556433 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Digi-RGB is better than DVI and HDMI and VGA and so on. A Digi-RGB monitor ought to take two frames to start up (because the screen resolution won't be known until one entire frame has passed; it won't know where to start drawing either until one entire frame has passed). < 1432324081 200356 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Had at least a Mystique 220 and a G450, and they both were very good. mplayer had a 'mga' output driver that didn't need X. < 1432324111 199596 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some graphical programs can run even without X < 1432324155 168712 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well, it's not really just the frames that limit the startup < 1432324175 935482 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's mostly the electronics in the monitor, like powering up the backlight < 1432324207 437244 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it can power up the backlight independently though? < 1432324219 138642 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :independently from what? < 1432324244 685959 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't just keep the backlight powered up at all time because that would waste energy. it has to start that when it notices there's video signal as you turn on the machine. < 1432324268 240635 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be other stuff it has to do too, I don't know electronics < 1432324278 578811 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this Digi-RGB stuff? < 1432324282 629076 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like have a backlight switch that is on the side, independent of everything < 1432324283 563857 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean independently from the displaying signal; I don't mean it would keep the backlight on all the time! < 1432324302 335341 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: Although maybe that might work too < 1432324329 756640 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's Digi-RGB? < 1432324383 270993 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: The electrical specification is not written yet, but the rest is like this: All signals go from the computer to the display; only one direction. Signals are 4x red, 4x green, 4x blue, clock, sync, power, ground. You have two clock cycles per pixel, and sync is between frames. Aspect ratio must be eiter 4:3 or 16:9. < 1432324410 532193 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's how it works. < 1432324413 421219 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know which of the modern digital formats (DVI and HDMI and there's like two more I think) is better, I'm just claiming I want to use a digital video signal format rather than VGA (or other analog formats) < 1432324451 723763 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no limit to screen resolution or clock rate, although a minimum "base case" should be specified < 1432324457 220346 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh, that seems a bit limited < 1432324475 718933 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one, I have a 16:10 monitor < 1432324504 277861 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, even if most use cases don't need it, sometimes it does make sense to have more than 8 bit depth per color component < 1432324526 747619 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:10 is good because then you can display a movie, with the player interface in the smallextra space < 1432324540 324847 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :HDMI equals DVI + stuff (- other stuff), AIUI. < 1432324549 329130 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that most people use 16:9 because that's what the cheap monitors do < 1432324550 748899 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to complicate it < 1432324558 731867 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also a lot of 5:4 monitors < 1432324564 110955 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, that description covers everything. But still. < 1432324567 560589 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and projectors < 1432324587 326301 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: in particular, hdmi can transmit sound in the same wire, dvi can't < 1432324627 992448 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the basic part of transferring an image, they're supposedly identical. Which is why you can get passive adapters for the conversion. < 1432324630 179029 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also dvi has pins for analog signal so you can have a passive dvi-vga converter or something like that < 1432324637 538355 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: Yes I suppose that is true if you want to display the timecode and track number while the movie is playing perhaps, but usually I just don't need this. < 1432324666 460247 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no, I think you get passive adapters because the hdmi monitors and cards specifically have support for the converters < 1432324674 866433 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Digi-RGB-Plus can transmit analog stereo sound on the same cable as digital video; Digi-RGB doesn't though. It is designed though that a passive cable can convert between them with no compatibility issues. < 1432324675 42774 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1432324676 735958 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like the ps2 to usb converters for mous < 1432324690 764190 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which works because the mouse has built-in support for usb and ps2 or something < 1432324695 202167 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it like that/ < 1432324699 646446 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"DVI and HDMI have the same electrical specifications for their TMDS and VESA/DDC links." < 1432324703 787967 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :support both, just one plug for physical reasons < 1432324710 833812 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm ok < 1432324749 555595 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there's I think some, uh, mini-hdmi with a smaller plug, just not called that, and some other similar digital format < 1432324759 272823 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dvi is actually more than one formats too < 1432324765 232717 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :frankly I don't follow < 1432324767 833957 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a computer monitor connected to a VCR/DVD combo, you can connect the HDMI out of the VCR to the DVI in of the monitor but then there is no sound. However, the speakers can be connected to the other audio out on the VCR and then the sound will work too. < 1432324771 414520 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, HDMI is specifically designed to have its on-wire protocol an extension of DVI. < 1432324772 383216 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's all very complicated. < 1432324817 421648 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a matter of the monitors and cards having explicit support but rather that HDMI itself is inherently DVI-compatible. < 1432324839 464349 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but how is that possible? doesn't HDMI have too few pins in the connector for that? < 1432324866 697697 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does drop the analog parts. < 1432324872 644425 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but even still < 1432324884 560466 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe dvi doesn't actually use that many pins < 1432324896 584765 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's like the two rs232 serial port connectors < 1432324902 884973 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems riddiculous too < 1432324917 667885 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :DVI has 24 pins, but some of them are not at all necessary. < 1432324918 683043 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that matter, I think one of my outputs in the current graphics cards is DVI-D-only. < 1432324919 279326 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're exactly the same, the long one just has some unused or duplicated pins < 1432324966 408579 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :13w3 for all, I say -- it looks the funniest. < 1432324981 226861 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's 13w3? < 1432324985 952198 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :DVI has 5 TMDS lines while HDMI has 2, but DVI doesn't require all 5 of those to work. < 1432325000 518331 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Digi-RGB-Plus is Digi-RGB + analog stereo sound + control signal. The specification requires that it will function properly even if one or the other device does not support the control signal. (Also, the control signal is the reverse direction from the other signals.) < 1432325025 847732 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, Digi-thigy actually has analog sound < 1432325028 478927 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny < 1432325044 727998 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :(DVI single link I believe only requires 2 TMDS lines) < 1432325049 734700 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they really master naming stuff < 1432325078 364735 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange, I thought DVI actually required a lot of pins < 1432325082 863439 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not all of them, but a lot < 1432325105 66425 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but those same pins are on HDMI as well. < 1432325126 550636 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :HDMI *just* has the set of pins required for DVI it looks like. < 1432325132 795748 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :MHL is that one thing that can share a port with micro-USB and be "HDMI-compatible" in a very weak sense -- in the way that the other end can share a HDMI port, but both ends need to specially support MHL. < 1432325136 618840 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1432325142 247835 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many pins is that actually? < 1432325145 834075 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :19. < 1432325149 740015 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1432325155 212302 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :And does higher quality video by clocking the lines faster rather than adding more lines. < 1432325193 719906 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there's the DisplayPort side, and I think they had a "MHL-equivalent". < 1432325201 459813 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh by the way, I believe USB-3 also works in such a way that it's "compatible" with USB-2 because the USB-3 host actually has a full USB-2 host built in it < 1432325235 554912 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the connector of USB-3 has all the pins of USB-2 so you can plug in an USB-2 cable physically < 1432325242 324449 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it just handles USB-2 separately < 1432325250 68404 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, USB-3 works entirely over separate wires with USB-2 (in USB-3 mode) used for some initial protocol setup. < 1432325278 380648 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My opinion is DisplayPort and HDMI is complicated and has some kind of more problem; I invented Digi-RGB and Digi-RGB-Plus to be better systems. < 1432325341 442612 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, weird -- there's nothing useful even missing from DB-25 on DE-9. I figured it was just obscure stuff. < 1432325342 755674 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ok, but still, supporting only 16:9 and 4:3 is limited < 1432325343 219060 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to pay or register to use it, but, if you impleemnt it wrong and claim it is Digi-RGB then it is a trademark violation. < 1432325357 39216 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works for most projectors but not for some monitors < 1432325378 135664 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :USB 3.1 type C cables can carry a MHL 3.0 or a DisplayPort 1.3 signal, to further muddle things. < 1432325401 168498 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what's the relation of USB* to ESATA? < 1432325413 377877 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: One problem is if too many aspect ratios are possible then it might become difficult to figure out what the aspect ratio is from the signal. < 1432325444 253428 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Utterly unrelated, but some ports ("eSATAp") are built to accept both eSATA and USB connectors. < 1432325457 651156 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: can't there be a dummy row between frames, with a sync signal before and after it, or something? < 1432325466 153369 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if you don't want to pay for a hsync signal < 1432325481 380615 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I see < 1432325487 993000 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just something that you can shove both types of connectors into and it'll work. < 1432325496 323993 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1432325503 492180 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, slightly more usefully, you can have an eSATA device that draws power from that USB port too. < 1432325505 816073 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a notebook thing then < 1432325513 314789 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1432325515 143972 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: You can also carry PCI Express over SATA ("SATA Express" or something like that). < 1432325515 391764 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, mind you, the whole idea of esata is probably a notebook thing < 1432325527 739474 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we desktop people have space in the desktop to install four hard disks < 1432325533 617406 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :notebook people can install only two < 1432325538 472950 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes only one < 1432325563 547130 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sucks, how can you use a notebook as your main computer when you can't have multiple hard disks for redundancy? that's something I never understood < 1432325571 983802 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, they use usb external disks and stuff, but still < 1432325574 330323 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's complicated < 1432325581 184517 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're feeling really fancy you can shove a port multiplier on there and run, like, all the hard drives. < 1432325588 899202 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what, that sounds crazy < 1432325593 529211 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They use the cloud for redundancy, too. < 1432325611 387743 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use SD cards for backups < 1432325620 283967 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the problem is that you physically can't fit the hard disks inside the notebook chasis, not that there isn't enough port < 1432325634 196815 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, true. < 1432325652 432969 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd have to be a *big fucking laptop* to do more than two. < 1432325654 570977 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I think it's mainly so that SSD manufacturers can make single controllers for both PCIE and "SATA" SSDs without being limited to SATA. < 1432325676 519286 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, even those notebook hard disks have to be small size (one of three small sizes actually, with different but passive convertible connnectors), and I think small size 2 terabyte hard disks are significantly more expensive than large size < 1432325682 203443 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :*My* solution is to use my laptop as an SSH terminal and web browser. < 1432325717 681610 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's getting even crazier when people want to put an ssd in their notebook, because that takes up a hard disk slot < 1432325729 893359 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: sure, that does work, what I don't understand is using them as a main machine < 1432325730 69552 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "SATA Express" port looks like two side-by-side SATA ports, and I think they also generally work as regular SATA if you want. < 1432325750 810616 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: A lot of people also don't bother with, y'know, redundancy on drives in general. < 1432325758 128038 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, I know < 1432325776 825209 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they also don't want to upgrade parts of their machine too < 1432325784 434155 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just buy a whole new machine < 1432325804 115355 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That reminded me of http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/08/10 < 1432325859 579698 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: heh < 1432325915 879521 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you explain how you would do such dummy row and those stuff? < 1432325943 733903 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well, if you had an extra hsync signal, you could send a hsync signal at the end of each row, right? < 1432325965 688916 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably do that in the digital signal too if you made one color value special, but that's not practical with 8 bit depth < 1432325983 868575 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think analog encodes the hsync signal with some out of range value or something, I'm not sure) < 1432326015 170710 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :("They " also have a new thing called "NVMe" to replace AHCI as the logical interface. Basically, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SATA_Express#/media/File:SATA_Express_interface.svg < 1432326055 864157 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't want to do that, but you still have a vrefresh signal, you could do like this: vrefresh signal, first row, vrefresh signal, second row, third row, fourth row, ... 1200th row, start from beginning < 1432326075 701920 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you decode that by checking three consecutive vsync signals, < 1432326112 305482 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the distance of the first and third gives the full resolution (plus whatever overhead there is), the distance of the two vsync signals that are closer give the length of one row (plus possible overhead) < 1432326126 66295 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(provided there's at least three rows) < 1432326141 272637 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't do electronics, so I don't know how practical that would actually be < 1432326143 835873 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes you could do that with a hsync signal and it is correct it won't work with 8-bit depths only. My idea was that there is no clocks during hsync, and that hsync may be of zero time or more. A CRT display is allowed to require a specific hsync time but LCD/LED displays shouldn't. < 1432326159 551354 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: That seems an interesting idea; I don't quite know how practical it is either though. < 1432326178 440986 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can try discussing it with others I work with though and see < 1432326202 145588 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, you know, you could send digital metadata (telling the resolution and pixel depth and format stuff) after the vsync signal, but you probably don't want that < 1432326264 926713 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is this supposed to work with only lcd monitors and projectors? or more than that? < 1432326315 67361 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you could also waste a few pixels or rows at vsync or hsync and send metadata at that time < 1432326318 314934 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably only LCD monitors and projectors. Someone can make a CRT to work with it too if they want to but it isn't really designed to work with CRT. < 1432326361 167028 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: like, use a hsync signal instead of a vsync signal, waste at least one pixel data during hsync, and distinguish vsync from hsync by special values on the pixel pins < 1432326374 82139 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or by a longer sync, which is what vga does) < 1432326384 77809 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know if wasting pixels at every _hsync_ is a good idea < 1432326402 675181 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: how about those fancy low-res led matrices? < 1432326410 511172 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not led backlit, but made of leds < 1432326418 838324 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :low resolution, one or two or three color channels < 1432326445 103520 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are some ideas too but I don't want to add metadata or require hsync in specific ways. I don't know how those fancy low-res led matrices work. If you can provide details then I can answer you. < 1432326467 267283 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh by the way, besides more than 8 pixel depth, what I'd like is more than 3 color channels, for both cameras and monitors, and custom metadata that describes the spectrum of each color component) < 1432326485 70624 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but that's like wishlist category) < 1432326496 990974 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, I also "want a pony") < 1432326513 833192 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like I said, I do not want to complicate it. < 1432326526 662988 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ok < 1432326542 883244 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is the vsync zero pixel long, or longer? fixed or variable length? < 1432326622 885695 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vsync is zero pixel long but the amount of time it takes can be more than zero. < 1432326639 671081 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, that's what I mean < 1432326644 127181 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not actual pixels < 1432326649 843059 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just time stuff in pixels for video signals < 1432326659 954905 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the video card runs on a clock < 1432326672 361391 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no clock signals during vsync or hsync though, but the vsync signal will indicate vsync. < 1432326676 830181 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it gets crazier with the optional 9/8 multipler of vga text mode. I don't know how that works.) < 1432326695 695594 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: how does the monitor know how long the vsync is? < 1432326748 514868 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is a LCD monitor then does it need to know, if it can just start right after vsync? < 1432326763 865194 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to create the Wikipedia page "Israel with sea download". < 1432326791 691089 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should probably add a delay for vsync and hsync in case the display wants it anyways though, but it is not a requirement. < 1432326824 70985 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yeah, but then how does it know when the previous frame ends? < 1432326879 343975 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it has to know when the previous frame ends and when the current frame starts, right? < 1432326908 461372 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sync signal is active after the current frame ends < 1432326928 267976 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, even if limited to 8 bit depth and those fixed ratios, is this intended to support monitors with high resolution and high frame rate, possibly higher than what you can buy today? < 1432326954 145936 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: and when does the sync signal gets passive? < 1432326991 410592 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then sync is inactive then you will start the picture. < 1432326996 789233 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu JOIN :#esoteric < 1432326998 40641 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but then you can't have zero time sync < 1432327005 324720 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes it is intended to support monitors with high resolution and high frame rate, as well as low ones. < 1432327021 306050 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't it be active for at least the last one pixel (a fixed number of pixels) in the previous frame? < 1432327035 957550 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Well, yes, it isn't really "zero time"; it should be at least enough time for half a pixel, probably more < 1432327108 80497 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you want to support zero time, shouldn't you make it active for the last few pixels in the previous frame? < 1432327142 286416 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in fact, possibly even shifted back in time so it's passive a few pixels before the next frame) < 1432327158 689529 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can it be half a pixel? there's a clock signal, isn't there? < 1432327161 833719 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I made a mistake about zero time, but thank you for your suggestion anyways it might be considered. Perhaps at least the clock fall of the last half-pixel should be, at least < 1432327175 25304 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It is two clocks per pixel, so one clock is half of a pixel < 1432327175 924569 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not, like, implicit timing like some protocols do < 1432327181 538086 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1432327182 657956 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1432327186 346083 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :two clocks per pixel < 1432327191 262245 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Otherwise there is too many pins) < 1432327194 670450 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is it represented in the clock wire by the way? < 1432327197 971861 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the clock signal that is < 1432327244 941798 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clock signal is high during each half-pixel and then is low, and then you do next one < 1432327253 138807 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1432327282 387067 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like many other things are < 1432327464 13994 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1432327481 154899 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are you even detecting between 9:16 and 4:3 ratio? are some sizes of those disallowed? < 1432327634 194632 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, any 9:16 resolution has a pixel count that's valid in some 4:3 ratio resolution, just usually an unusual one < 1432327643 918002 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there's not that many resolutions actually in use < 1432327658 246574 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if there's any ambiguity among already used resolutions < 1432327695 191223 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would a monitor support only one of those ratios? < 1432327882 250650 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I don't remember having seen ais523 on irc for such a long interval continuously (with short breaks which I assume are connection problems) < 1432327951 230810 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's logged in near 0545Z < 1432327974 636308 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you show example of the pixel count? < 1432327989 399480 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, perhaps I missed it < 1432327990 731942 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I mean as in horizontal resolution times vertical resolution < 1432328000 308261 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it isn't supposed to be < 1432328015 416821 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are probably right though < 1432328020 195570 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for my 1920x1200 pixel monitor, that would be 1920*1200 < 1432328030 205352 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is 2304000 < 1432328034 948351 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I know that < 1432328463 692329 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1432328726 695525 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How you figure out is try to calculate the square root of the number of pixels and figure out what factor is left over. If it is 1 then it is 16:9. If it is 3 then it is 4:3. < 1432328800 787690 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1432328822 104028 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will this work? < 1432328836 832412 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1432329000 978351 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also figure out if it is square during counting, because the square number is added up 1+3+5+7+9+11+13+... < 1432329069 486030 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no. there's always a lcm of any two rectangular screen ratios, so there's always a screen resolution where the pixel count is ambiguous < 1432329083 845771 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: as in lcm(16*9, 4*3) < 1432329110 202585 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that lcm could be very large so only large resolutions can be ambiguous, but not for these ratios, where it's 144 < 1432329160 995589 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so unless you use non-rectangular screens (eg. adding an extra pixel to the end of 4*3 screens so you can distinguish from the parity of the pixel count) you're screweed < 1432329271 940753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: this laptop supports both 1360x768 and 1366x768 as resolutions < 1432329320 379054 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hmm wait < 1432329324 742094 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'm wrong because I'm tired < 1432329340 104370 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there's no collision actually < 1432329529 851271 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, no collision, you're right < 1432329530 806507 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1432329534 552222 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tired < 1432329641 252376 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: also lcm(16*9, 4*3) is 16*9, for what I hope are obvious reasons < 1432329654 459880 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes < 1432329664 276801 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that the value I said? < 1432329668 607782 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it turns out it's not the lcm that matters < 1432330715 727618 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any more feature-suggestion/complaints about AmigaMML today? < 1432330722 8359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no < 1432330754 201891 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did answer a question you asked in 2011, though: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Underload#Why_the_reserved_characters.3F < 1432330757 888082 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if you're still interested in the answer < 1432330804 63500 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did look at that answer; thank you for that < 1432331171 783683 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, since this is a bit weird, maybe I'll mention here: I've got a mouse (just a plain Logitech M500-or-something-like-that), and a USB 2.0 hub (just your basic cheap unpowered 4-port thing), and on this desktop, the mouse stops working generally after 1-60 minutes of use; but it works fine if (a) the mouse is plugged into the machine, not the hub, or (b) the hub is plugged into the laptop, ... < 1432331177 770785 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... not the desktop. Oh, and the original setup used to work fine earlier, but now reliably fails. < 1432331188 309968 :atrapado!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1432331212 328252 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and unplugging + replugging makes it start working for a while again. < 1432331218 244242 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debugging tips? As I recall, dmesg doesn't contain any particularly insightful messages when it stops working; it just... stops. < 1432331258 717996 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Maybe I should just get another cheap hub.) < 1432331267 738157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: check the X log, just in case? < 1432331321 559814 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I guess I should. I'll plug it into the hub and wait. < 1432331504 368694 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it hung up. Nothing in dmesg; no 'disconnected' message or anything. < 1432331578 32425 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing in Xorg.0.log either. < 1432331587 835396 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I think the cursor just disappeared. < 1432331602 910360 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I just forgot where it was. < 1432331616 156308 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's moved to the other monitor. Hmm. < 1432331625 596248 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know what's up with that either. < 1432331678 946586 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's one of those infrared dealies, so I can't even see whether it's emitting light. < 1432331737 530071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm wondering what the easiest way to see in infrared is < 1432331746 870928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't rely on flourescence like you can with UV < 1432331754 154236 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The generally accepted answer to that is I think "cheap webcam". < 1432331760 677189 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For near infrared, that is. < 1432331765 885802 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh, that's too cheap to filter the IR out? < 1432331768 746575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually pretty hilarious < 1432331782 4145 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, with a lot of them you can see at least a TV remote IR led. < 1432331815 179484 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And some of them have a "night vision" mode which turns on an IR led in the camera. < 1432331905 733912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm, I remember many years ago < 1432331926 44456 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading a New Scientist article which was talking about this new innovation that made photodiodes much more efficient, but as a side effect made them see into the infrared < 1432331932 571989 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it's been widely adopted since < 1432331942 738857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they were unclear on whether this was an advantage or disadvantage) < 1432332156 713498 :Wright_!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1432332156 962936 :Wright!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1432332337 849611 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmmaybe. I am at least under the impression that "most" CCD sensors are IR-sensitive enough to require an explicit IR filter. (People post instructions on how to dismantle some DSLRs to remove the sensor, so that you can do IR photography for artistic purposes.) < 1432332350 978158 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/remove the sensor/remove the filter/ < 1432332363 725211 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I'm sure removing the sensor would be a valid artistic choice too. < 1432332376 268076 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-092-072-136-176.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: Terminated < 1432332506 3614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: aren't there easier ways to get an entirely black image? :-) < 1432332511 698062 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: telephone cameras are also easy to check ir with < 1432332527 556942 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if that's because the ir filter is expensive or thick < 1432332533 947379 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried my phone camera, and it didn't show anything. Of course I don't know anything about what sort of light comes out of the mouse. < 1432332546 726667 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-092-072-136-176.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1432332547 654433 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my phone camera definitely shows some IR lights < 1432332555 61854 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might depend on the frequency of course < 1432332589 588708 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Don't see anything here; not that I know how bright it is, either, or if it's easy to trigger. < 1432332605 191363 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The MS IntelliMouse I had was this ridiculously bright (visible) red. < 1432332616 811990 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You pretty much didn't need any lights in the room. < 1432332631 933381 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1432332637 746421 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, figuratively < 1432332645 345540 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like lots of lights < 1432332671 958965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: there's a computer lab at the university that's full of those mice < 1432332693 71670 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even when they turn the lights off in the room at night, there's still this angry red glow that's visible at a huge distance < 1432332711 547014 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mice are plotting the doom of the human race there. < 1432332731 477225 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's what they're plotting. < 1432332750 96668 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1432332785 123644 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I downloaded the new version of SoX but now it says there is no default audio device configured. < 1432332789 66094 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like http://www.xkcd.com/251/ ? < 1432332897 454433 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifying "-t waveaudio default" instead of "-d" works, but how to make it so that "-d" will also work? < 1432332958 487388 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it reads some environment variables for the default? < 1432332974 658534 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What environment variables are these? < 1432332982 584623 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I might be wrong here.) < 1432333049 299654 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :AUDIODRIVER and AUDIODEV are mentioned in the man page. Although it's curious that a (presumably) Windows binary wouldn't have the reasonable default. < 1432333049 510801 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, I think I found it < 1432333076 193516 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that works < 1432333234 765791 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1432333887 778916 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the "libsox-3.dll" but how to link it into a C program with GCC? < 1432334200 950811 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done a little bit of that with MinGW, but I've forgotten the process. I think it involved the use of the MinGW 'dlltool'. (I'm not sure about Cygwin and such.) < 1432334244 431315 :evalj!~jeval@5403C31A.catv.pool.telekom.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1432334345 475231 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a vague feeling it was complicated, since the normal way was to start from the source code of the .dll. < 1432334395 556862 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1432334406 292743 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to work with UNIX too not only on Windows < 1432334474 947051 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the build steps will need to be platform-specific. Unless something like libtool can abstract that away. < 1432334482 861439 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will specifying the .dll as an additional source file work? < 1432334539 894570 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, maybe this has changed. < 1432334553 886700 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was doing this, you definitely needed to generate the special "import library" to link against. < 1432334573 415272 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But now http://www.mingw.org/wiki/createimportlibraries claims that: "Usually (read: for all DLLs created with MinGW and also a few others) MinGW links fine against a DLL. No special import library is necessary (see sampleDLL)." < 1432334576 735839 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Creating DLLs with MinGW works easily and I have done it perfectly fine; the only issue is that if you want to call any functions in the DLL from Visual Basic then you need to write "_stdcall" in front of those function definitions. < 1432334601 115000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :having the separate import library helps to avoid circular dependencies though < 1432334618 480826 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Typing _stdcall isn't necessary in any other cases, it seems) < 1432334664 647130 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Essentially what it does when you pass a dll to it is generate the import library automatically. < 1432334728 521505 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if the symbols are exported by name, of course) < 1432334735 765507 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I thought it generated more efficient code than the import library based version < 1432334748 192084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it inlines the import library, or something like that? < 1432334765 778035 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, that's what __declspec(dllimport) does. < 1432334800 424363 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such inlining cannot possibly be done at link time. < 1432334991 790203 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1432335104 851760 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do seem to be exported by name; if I look in the dependency viewer, all of the names are listed there. < 1432335153 386001 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can the program be used on Linux too if libsox is also available on Linux? < 1432335210 795596 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likely. libsox *is* on Linux. < 1432335212 644009 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1432335215 550452 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:52:33 --- quit: zies- (*.net *.spit) < 1432335269 468902 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neural net still has things to learn. < 1432335273 632926 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, what changes are then needed in the source-file of the program (if any)? < 1432335293 259446 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1432335370 407237 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also how to find the header file for libsox? < 1432335628 923153 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1432335718 937623 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1432335774 807101 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mad Max: Fury Road was a film < 1432336042 626039 :M_I_Wright!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1432336112 687420 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1432336200 558502 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1432336439 644899 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found the sox.h file and now it compiles but it says "The procedure entry point GOMP_parallel could not be located in the dynamic link library libgomp-1.dll." < 1432336461 525140 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That file is in the path though < 1432336515 62487 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1432336552 820025 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dependency Walker says that GOMP_parallel is exported from libgomp-1.dll too < 1432336661 194131 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program works when the current directory contains libgomp-1.dll < 1432336876 498449 :supay!sid47179@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-seywnujiktcaybft QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1432337025 380995 :hilquias!~user@unaffiliated/hilquias QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1432337264 777976 :supay!sid47179@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-owwuzctlnleohyqc JOIN :#esoteric < 1432338037 480905 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured out the mistake is that I had a different version of libgomp-1.dll in a different directory and it found the wrong one. < 1432338057 496267 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Changing the order of the path partially fixed it. < 1432338084 15237 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Groovy14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43024 5* 03189.8.69.39 5* (+15) 10Created page with "is a java thing" < 1432338174 239145 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1432338498 478434 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I fixed it more < 1432338508 15053 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hold on I thought Groovy was that port of python to JRE? < 1432338527 574309 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wait that's Jython < 1432338797 207240 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it's not an esoteric language in any case < 1432338885 620654 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the article (which just says "is a java thing") is worthless, in any case.