00:00:47 helloily 00:00:47 hm or wait there's a PIE reconstruction *marǵ- 00:01:21 PIE IS DELICIOUS 00:02:17 oh margin is via the latin version 00:02:56 the different meanings may have been borrowed back and forth 00:03:23 quintopia: argh need to eat 00:14:48 QUINTHELLOPIA! WHAT FLAVOUR? 00:19:33 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 00:31:30 boily: wanna play game. i feel like game. 00:36:02 The Polish for a square is kwadrat 00:37:13 makes sense 00:37:18 FreeFull: i'm sorry, the only correct spelling is "kvadrat" hth 00:37:41 * oerjan finally realizes polish is just norwegian with funny spelling hth 00:37:59 Polish doesn't even have v as a letter 00:38:23 oerjan: How about this: yellow is żółty 00:38:41 FreeFull: ok that's a really horrible misspelling of "gul" 00:39:31 i recall an old norwegian encyclopedia that didn't bother giving w its own letter ordering 00:39:41 Red is czerwony 00:39:51 Blue is niebieski 00:39:58 (niebo is sky) 00:40:12 (or heaven) 00:40:24 i'm afraid we're pretty close to english there, "rød" and "blå". 00:43:33 * oerjan finally realizes polish is just norwegian with funny spelling <-- norwegian's spelling is much funnier hth 00:43:40 quintopia: I would feel like game if I weren't going to be embedding myself deep on my mattress in a few minutes :( 00:43:49 shachaf: wøt 00:44:17 matrix embedding 00:44:28 diagonalisation. 00:44:29 oerjan: you didn't fall for my trap :'( 00:44:33 boily: then take le nap, but DEN PLAY ZE GAME 00:45:45 oerjan: norwegian is good but it just n3eds a little more...polish. hth. 00:46:14 shachaf: wąt trap 00:46:19 oerjan: czerwony comes from a bug that red dye was made from 00:46:38 OKAY 00:47:30 oerjan: the idea was that you would notice the missing hth and think "oh, i forgot to double-hth", but then you'd think "wait, but it's /me, so i don't need to double-hth", and then you would become confused, and check the logs, and finaly swat me 00:48:10 shachaf: fiendish hth 00:48:44 shachaf: your error was to assume i would remember whether i had used hth or not 00:50:27 finally 00:51:06 `` echo bath | h 00:51:07 bahth 00:52:19 -!- boily has quit (Quit: LAMBASTIC CHICKEN). 01:05:42 ... what does hth mean? 01:06:46 `? hth 01:06:48 hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. 01:06:58 It means "hope that helps" or "hope that helped" or something like that. 01:08:14 Ah. The way that it was constantly used made me question that interpretation hth 01:08:44 It might be "hope this helps". 01:08:49 "hope this helped" doesn't make much sense. 01:16:25 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:36:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 01:51:26 its only used sarcastically in this channel haha 01:53:31 what a fowl thing to say tdnh 01:57:06 I'm suprised that nobodies used htththh 01:57:28 Hope that this hope that helps helps 01:58:07 we're not nobodies here! 01:58:19 It can, of course, be nested arbitrarily deep. htththhthth 01:58:34 i'll have you know oerjan's twin published respectable maths papers about ergodicity or something 01:59:28 Ok, so you're even lower than nobodies, neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirds 02:00:03 * oerjan feels this slight twitching in his power abuse finger 02:00:32 is that the one connected to the swatter 02:00:40 or are you saying i should stop 02:01:15 I think he means me 02:01:22 * cowers in fear 02:01:57 ^ul (h)S((h)(t))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^ 02:01:57 htththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhtthhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtthhtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhtthhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtthhtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhtthhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtthhtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhthtth ...too much output! 02:02:17 deep enough? 02:02:56 (this sequence is dense in a nice uniquely ergodic system hth hth) 02:03:01 oops 02:03:23 *the orbit of 02:03:53 did you quadruple hth to type that 02:04:39 shachaf: the swatter doesn't work against people calling people nerds, tru fax 02:04:54 wait, you actually did publish papers on ergodic theory 02:04:59 i thought i was misremembering that 02:05:12 *MWAHAHAHAHA* 02:05:55 Ergodic theory (ergon work, hodos way) is a branch of mathematics that studies dynamical systems with an invariant measure and related problems. Its initial development was motivated by problems of statistical physics. 02:06:24 and apparently i have to pay $45 to read it tdnh 02:06:48 fancy 02:06:49 did you become the evil twin by selling your soul to publishers? 02:06:57 MAYBE 02:07:03 i don't think i got paid 02:07:28 did you get a degree 02:07:33 i did 02:07:43 that's basically money 02:07:48 OKAY 02:10:17 It's like one of those lotteries that advertise money for life, really 02:18:28 lol 02:26:11 [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42811&oldid=42630 * Esowiki201529A * (+43) 02:35:34 -!- spatterworhty has quit (Quit: Page closed). 02:58:21 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:07:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:11:19 -!- teakey has joined. 03:34:08 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 03:49:29 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:52:04 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:10:33 -!- password2_ has joined. 04:35:09 -!- teakey has joined. 04:35:35 -!- teakey has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 04:36:07 -!- teakey has joined. 04:38:59 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 05:22:07 -!- esowiki has joined. 05:22:11 -!- esowiki has joined. 05:22:11 -!- esowiki has joined. 05:22:18 -!- glogbot has joined. 05:43:15 -!- password2_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:12:40 -!- variable has joined. 06:13:39 ...but archaic ← Yeah, only used in "i gengäld" ("in return") today, I think 06:20:08 I didn't realise what the etymology was before now, though 06:36:14 -!- zadock has joined. 06:58:40 Is there a branch of mathematics that studies the impact of mathematical studies on society? 06:59:35 mroman: I'm not sure such a thing would be a branch of mathematics 07:05:35 :-( 07:14:59 According to xkcd everything is a branch of mathematics. 07:20:43 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:21:54 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:52:53 -!- teakey has joined. 08:15:48 -!- nszceta has joined. 08:20:28 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:27:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:29:17 jesus christ england what the fuck 08:33:57 -!- scoofy has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:35:13 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:36:10 Not a fan of tories? 08:44:10 why does hIsEOF block? 08:44:45 mroman: is stdin at eof if the user didn't type yet? 08:46:08 i'm not using it on stdin 08:47:03 hIsEOF *may* block 08:47:05 what is this 08:47:50 so 08:47:58 how do I know when reading is finished? 08:48:45 hIsReady throws an error when EOF is reached 08:48:52 so you should check for EOF before hIsReady 08:49:05 but hIsEOF blocks infinetily 08:54:34 could you provide some more context? if you can pass stdin, it makes perfect sense that it may block 09:13:25 I'm using it on a handle of another process 09:13:28 launched with shellCmd 09:16:43 which uses shell and createProcess 09:17:52 -!- nszceta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:18:21 for example with netcat hIsEOF on stdout of it seems to block 09:18:33 -!- nszceta has joined. 09:19:50 Phantom_Hoover, I think in the long term a Tory majority is good because either their supporters are right and they somehow do a good job, or, without the lib dems to blame things on, they get largely discredited 09:19:57 Although this is just wishful thinking, I admit 09:20:27 http://codepad.org/wgxqfHgF but you can't really make use of that :) 09:21:05 nvd, very, very wishful 09:21:22 What can I say, I am an optimist through and through 09:21:28 if there's one thing this election's proven it's that the english public-- 09:21:42 Although I voted for the only party that deserved to win, Yorkshire First 09:21:46 sorry, the swing voters in english marginals who actually decide who the country's run-- 09:21:57 have an unlimited capacity to believe obvious, utter bullshit 09:23:16 (and I could choose to vote in either a tory safe seat or a labour safe seat) 09:26:06 in the long tory tradition of 'fuck you, i've got mine' it's vaguely hopeful that they've promised more devolution as a sop to the scots 09:28:01 i want to get a degree and go home, i've seen enough of england 09:28:27 Hey, they didn't even let me vote. "Blah blah British citizen blah." (Perhaps a wise decision.) 09:29:41 fizzie, I thought resident EU citizens could vote? 09:29:59 Not in this election. 09:30:11 Resident commonwealth citizens can 09:30:18 So you should have been from Malta 09:30:24 "Additionally, the following cannot vote in a UK general election: EU citizens resident in the UK (although they can vote at elections to local authorities, devolved legislatures and the European Parliament)" 09:30:44 Huuuuh 09:31:00 i have the 'fuck off back to eton' song stuck in my head 09:33:02 I think it's the same in Finland: non-Finnish citizens can't vote in the presidential or parliamentary elections, but the rules for the local and EU parliament ones are different. (The former is open to citizens of EU countries, Norway and Iceland, and anyone who's been resident for 2 years or more; the latter to EU only.) 09:34:22 Also: if I vote at the local EU parliament elections, I can't vote at the Finnish one. 09:45:28 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:15:12 -!- S0lll0s has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 10:26:41 -!- boily has joined. 10:28:04 -!- nszceta has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 10:47:16 EU citizens can become UK citizens though 10:49:22 FreeFull: not easily 10:49:31 And it's not exactly limited to EU citizens. 10:49:57 You'll ("usually") have to live here for 5 years, at the very least. 10:50:13 Yes 10:50:38 I've lived in the UK since 2006 10:53:52 I understand there's a test, too. 11:01:10 the UK is a nice place. they even have the same Queen as ours! 11:05:12 [wiki] [[Gemooy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42812&oldid=40956 * Chris Pressey * (-64) Update link to GEMOOY project NOTES 11:16:57 boily: Well, she is the Queen of a lot of places 11:18:25 She's like both my queens 11:21:31 nvellod. both your queens? 11:21:46 boily, I'm dual national UK/Australia 11:23:32 tdh. 11:25:15 She's just one of my Queens (Queen of England) 11:27:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FUNGOTTIAN CHICKEN). 12:14:29 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:32:46 -!- zadock has joined. 12:42:57 what's the difference between 赤 and 紅????? 12:43:36 they both mean red but in different contaxts 12:45:58 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:46:16 . o O ( red socks ) 12:48:24 -!- GeekDude has joined. 12:52:32 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:58:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:05:45 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:30:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:43:04 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:11:50 -!- teakey has joined. 14:11:51 -!- hilquias has joined. 14:22:07 -!- GeekDude has joined. 14:24:11 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:29:05 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:39:57 [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42813&oldid=42811 * Esowiki201529A * (+37) 14:47:26 -!- teakey has joined. 15:36:05 -!- variable has joined. 15:36:41 -!- variable has changed nick to trout. 15:39:55 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 15:43:34 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:44:50 -!- spiette has joined. 15:59:15 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:02:48 -!- zadock has joined. 16:06:31 -!- teakey has joined. 16:17:39 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:43:13 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:47:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:08:55 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:07:21 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:18:26 -!- hilquias has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:40:07 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:42:17 -!- hilquias has joined. 18:48:25 Ugh 18:48:47 My principles of programming languages module states, roughly, "all languages are turing complete" 18:49:14 "roughly" 18:49:45 oerjan: been a long time since the last olist, hasn't it? 18:49:54 shachaf: several hours! 18:49:55 oerjan, I'm paraphrasing 18:50:10 Well write the author 18:50:18 and send him a correction 18:50:21 nvd: well that means i cannot judge whether you're misreading or not, doesn't it. 18:50:31 The slides say "All languages are computationally equivalent: Turing Completeness" 18:50:50 are the slides actually a comic strip 18:50:53 !!!!1 18:51:01 or is there another reason for the gratuitous bolding 18:51:20 shachaf, it's italics but I don't know how to do that in IRC 18:51:32 Fun, so there are non-(programming language)s that are used for programming. 18:51:48 Hm is this it 18:51:50 nope 18:52:00 What about this 18:52:03 this might be your best approximation hth 18:52:04 oerjan: that's a tab 18:52:27 int-e: yes, but it's not irc uses tab for anything else... 18:52:28 just write the professor 18:52:32 *+like 18:52:39 oerjan: it's used for tab completion hth 18:52:45 -!- nvd has left ("Leaving"). 18:52:49 -!- nvd has joined. 18:52:58 Trying key combos is not working well 18:53:12 oerjan: of course it's not displayed as a tab... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/I.png 18:53:25 I can moke bold like *bold* 18:53:44 shachaf: that's not part of irc itself, but your client. 18:53:51 I dono how to make other stuf 18:53:52 int-e: My underlining didn't show up? 18:53:58 "All that is needed to make a language Turing Complete is a way of specifying what to do 18:53:58 next on the basis of the current state of the ‘universe’. In other words, all that’s needed is a 18:53:58 ‘conditional branch’!" 18:54:00 shachaf: I'm filtering colors. 18:54:13 bold is easy 18:54:14 !! 18:54:14 How exciting! 18:54:23 ?!?!?!? 18:54:23 Unknown command, try @list 18:54:46 oerjan: was unaware my irc client was doing the tab completion tdh 18:54:54 I am pretty damn sure you need more than a conditional brANCH 18:54:57 shachaf: I've found that it keeps me saner. You'll notice that my irssi scheme isn't very colorful either :) 18:55:00 nvd: congratulations, you've entered the "knows more than your teacher" zone hth 18:55:18 s/scheme/theme/ 18:55:30 oerjan, I do not like this 18:55:38 Because I have an exam on this in less than a week 18:56:01 Write the head of CS department 18:56:04 (1) Are all languages computationally equivalent? [y/n] 18:56:45 Oh yeah, knowing more than your teachers... When you know everything, you can get a Bachelor's degree. When you realize that you know nothing, you can get a Master's. And when you realize that Professors also don't know anything you can get a PhD. 18:57:13 int-e: wow your irssi theme is even more subdued than mine 18:57:20 (Now if I could remember where I've read that...) 18:57:22 It's really annoying because this actually contradicts another module I'm doing 18:57:30 IRSSI has themes?? 18:57:49 http://www.irssi.org/themes 18:57:54 nvd: pick the contravariant one hth 18:58:06 or maybe not entirely, i don't bold nicks 18:58:12 (because everyone knows that only right modules are contravariant) 18:58:27 oren: i use the clean theme 18:58:35 like, whoa, dude 18:58:42 I am currently using whatever the defoult is 18:58:45 if i stopped saying "like, whoa, dude" so much, would that make me subdude? 18:58:49 oerjan: there's a bit of red in there, too. 18:58:54 shachaf, what if I'm doing a module over the ring of differential operators? 18:59:01 `? nvd 18:59:02 nvd? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 18:59:36 `learn nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional. 18:59:37 nutritional value decomposition 18:59:38 Learned 'nvd': nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional. 18:59:51 `? d-module 18:59:52 D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them. 19:00:01 `? tanebventions 19:00:03 Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, and this sentence. 19:00:24 `? persistence 19:00:27 Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since. 19:00:41 i like that one 19:00:42 Oooh, that's a new one 19:01:25 `? automatic squirrel feeders 19:01:26 Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them. 19:01:27 tell me about your siblings, nvd 19:01:29 how many bros persist? 19:01:36 shachaf, one, thus far 19:01:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:01:59 Whence the "neb" in Taneb 19:02:26 neb is two? 19:02:31 `? this sentence 19:02:32 This sentence was invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it. 19:03:04 oren: the default when i started using irssi was dark background i think so i got rid of it as soon as possible 19:03:33 `? torus 19:03:34 Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them. 19:03:57 A video game map is usually a torus 19:04:11 usually? 19:04:16 i disagree 19:04:28 `? go 19:04:29 Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia. 19:04:33 I think Civilization uses a cylinder 19:05:02 oren, many video games use a rectangle now 19:05:06 i think pretty much all first person 3d games...do not use any of those things 19:05:53 All the FF's and Chrono Trigger use toruses. tori? 19:05:56 I'm surprised Taneb isn't a Tanebvention. 19:06:07 there was that one game that used a hyperbolic projective space 19:06:11 or something 19:07:28 this thing http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/HyperRogue it's just an infinite hyperbolic plane 19:08:01 Apparently it is tori 19:08:12 oerjan: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cOlOr.png is as colorful as it gets, I guess. 19:08:30 shachaf, my parents worked together to invent Taneb 19:08:54 nvd: are you going to icfp 19:09:18 shachaf, no, I will be in Italy at the time 19:09:28 Also I don't think I can easily afford a trip to Vancouver 19:10:03 the theme is http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/inverse.theme if anybody cares. 19:10:18 -!- oerjan has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:10:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:10:35 @ping 19:10:35 pong 19:10:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 19:11:06 `? cis 19:11:07 The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb. 19:11:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:11:18 hth 19:11:27 constant irritation 19:11:56 oerjan, that's... closer to the truth than I like 19:12:01 `` grep -l '\. ' wisdom/* 19:12:02 grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/atrix \ wisdom/brick \ wisdom/burlesque \ wisdom/ci \ wisdom/finnish \ wisdom/gaspacho \ wisdom/gazpacho \ wisdom/htdh \ wisdom/irrelevant info \ wisdom/norway \ wisdom/oerjan_ \ wisdom/spam \ wisdom/sweden 19:12:02 | 19:12:02 o/`¯º 19:12:06 hm 19:12:36 A lot of my character development since 2007 wouldn't have happened without the CIs 19:12:36 I think Civilization uses a cylinder <-- going north of the north pole doesn't quite make sense... 19:13:53 a sphere with two holes would be equivalent to a cylinder 19:13:56 stupid non-toroidal planets. 19:14:39 nvd: exactly as planned hth 19:14:48 oerjan: if that was an objection I didn't get the point. 19:14:54 For a start, I wouldn't be in this channel 19:15:16 I wouldn't have heard of computer science, let alone be doing half a degree in it and be an active member of my uni's computer science society 19:15:42 I wouldn't have made a quite large number of friends 19:15:55 int-e: that's a very mysterious channel, #fooooo 19:16:09 oerjan: I needed a quiet place to test :P 19:17:39 * int-e still hasn't got the closing > after hilighted nicks right... 19:19:01 int-e: objection to what 19:19:58 #FOOOOOD 19:20:04 oerjan: to civilization using a cylinder 19:20:11 shachaf: sorry, i just ate hth 19:20:27 int-e: it was an explanation not an objection hth 19:20:36 you ate a hairy toe? 19:20:55 shachaf: thanks, now i have to eat again 19:20:55 oerjan: Ok then. 19:20:59 (not really) 19:21:13 -!- zadock has joined. 19:21:17 oerjan: i'm sure you could get a second helping hth 19:21:30 shachaf: well i do have ten of them 19:22:06 * oerjan vaguely recalls biting his toe nails when he was very small 19:22:28 * shachaf vaguely recalls stapling his thumb when he was very small 19:22:51 ouch 19:22:51 I was sure it wouldn't hurt. 19:23:01 I told everyone that it wouldn't hurt, and then put the stapler on my thumb and pushed. 19:23:07 i was wrong hth 19:23:11 a tough lesson 19:23:27 But valuable, I suppose. I trust there was no permanent damage? 19:23:40 hard to say 19:24:10 hmm, i took to biting my thumb maybe 10-15 years after that 19:24:25 there's probably some permanent damage from that 19:24:47 but not from the stapler 19:25:32 `? htdh 19:25:33 HtDH is a classic text on How to Design Hotdogs or possibly Hogprams. It is all about functional condiments, and was co-authored by Herence Tao and Don Ho. 19:25:36 "Since everything in a programming language consists of sequences of characters" excuse you, Principles of Programming Languages, Piet is a thing that exists 19:26:14 I don't consider apl to consist of character either 19:26:16 nvd: a language is defined as a set of strings hth 19:26:41 shachaf, but a programming language isn't 19:27:01 Apl uses overstrike, so it isn't a sequence so much as an arrangement 19:27:29 Similarly, befunge can't really be said to be a "sequence" 19:27:44 It is a "grid" 19:28:42 "everything can be encoded as a string so we won't bother to distinguish everything from a string" hth 19:29:02 everything can be encoded as a unary string hth 19:29:14 shachaf: that has some overhead tdnh 19:29:46 so does every encoding hth 19:30:10 lisp is sort of not string-based either 19:30:24 now you're stretching it 19:30:30 if lisp isn't string-based, what is? 19:30:45 it's AST based 19:31:05 uh. sed 19:31:19 sed seems string-based all right hth 19:31:28 oh, that reminds me 19:31:44 if you have two total orderings on a finite set, they determine a permutation on that set 19:32:04 but what if the set is infinite? a total ordering doesn't uniquely determine a permutation, but what sort of ordering does? 19:32:13 maybe a well-ordering? 19:32:44 a total ordering plus a given starting point would 19:33:03 wait uh no 19:33:13 shachaf: a well ordering does, yes 19:34:04 since building pattern constructors and such in CGoL is not "programming" because it doesn't use a "programming language", what is it? 19:34:40 that's an interesting question, is there an ordered set with no non-trivial monotone automorphism that is neither well-ordered nor the reverse? 19:35:07 *nor reversely well-ordered 19:36:32 (that's basically equivalent to your question, i think) 19:37:26 shachaf: oh wait the two orderings must be isomorphic to start with to give a permutation 19:37:47 so e.g. omega and omega+1 cannot be used 19:38:03 so it must be the _same_ ordinal, if a well-ordering. 19:38:59 but once you have that, it becomes equivalent 19:45:27 shachaf: oh hm \{ 1/n | n \in Z, n \neq 0 \} is neither well-ordered nor the reverse, but has that property 19:46:07 i.e. the naturals followed by the naturals in reverse. 19:46:46 oh to have the property every subsegment must also have it 19:47:06 (property: no non-trivial monotone self-bijection) 19:50:30 oh hm find a subsegment with the property of minimal cardinality 19:50:58 wait 19:51:04 _without_ the property. 19:57:24 help, you said all sorts of things 19:59:03 anyway well-ordering is just one idea, presumably there are other orderings 19:59:49 well i did find one 20:00:11 but i'm wondering if well-ordering + reverse well-ordering covers all 20:01:06 + = followed by 20:01:57 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suslin%27s_problem seems possibly irrelevant hth 20:03:49 dth? 20:04:49 i don't even know hth 20:04:49 well it's just a problem about orderings that's independent of ZFC 20:05:19 anyway the original motivation for thinking about this was the thing with finite sets where there's no natural isomorphism between total orderings and permutations 20:05:19 but it says nothing about uniquely determined permutations (and indeed R doesn't have them...) 20:06:10 O-kay, I fixed the > coloring ... 20:06:41 where defining a "base ordering" to go between permutations and total orderings seemed analogous to defining a basis to go between linear maps and matrices 20:06:57 so i was wondering about the infinite case 20:07:37 and since "every vector space has a basis" and "every set can be well-ordered" are equivalent, i was thinking about using a well-ordering rather than just a total ordering 20:07:46 Finally, after 5? 8? years... 20:08:03 wait are they equivalent again 20:08:23 well, both equivalent to the axiom of choice 20:08:30 aren't they? twnh 20:09:24 ok wikipedia claims so... 20:11:54 it's probably the boolean prime ideal theorem confusing me again 20:12:05 "2000 Toril Aalberg and Ørjan Johansen" 20:12:07 is that you twh 20:12:28 as this thing that's _almost_ about bases in a sense, yet weaker than AoC 20:12:35 shachaf: doubtful 20:12:50 which thing is almost about bases? 20:12:59 the boolean prime ideal theorem 20:15:12 What are examples of "basis"-type things other than the two I mentioned? 20:16:47 well "every boolean algebra is isomorphic to a boolean algebra of sets"... would be the one i'm alluding to here... 20:17:07 oh and what's this thing again... 20:19:00 the subdirect representation theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdirectly_irreducible_algebra 20:19:31 it includes at least the vector space and boolean algebra things as special cases 20:19:48 oh hm 20:20:01 well it's not exactly basis 20:31:25 oerjan: hmm, regarding the ordering problem, could something like this work? http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cantor.png The idea is to add one isolated point in the first removed interval; then two each in the two intervals removed next, and so on... those added points are the only ones that have both a successor and a predecessor in the order, and they can be used to approach all points in the cantor... 20:31:27 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 20:31:31 ...set by a cauchy sequence... so I don't see how the order has any automorphism besides reflection (which could easily be ruled out by adding yet another isolated point to one side) 20:31:45 -!- idris-bot has joined. 20:35:15 int-e: ah that's something like what i was trying to think of, except i didn't realize you could use just finite sets as "tags" 20:36:10 Today: 20:36:15 ( let foo = "world" in interpolate "Hello, ${foo}!" 20:36:15 "Hello, world!" : String 20:36:31 probably because i was still thinking of well-ordered sets as the thing to start with 20:38:17 Melvar: some day soon it'll turn out idris has become entirely equivalent to perl in power 20:38:52 oerjan: Ah, tag, good term. How many tags do we need? Is there a cute aperiodic way of labeling a binary tree that would let us get away with just two different tags? 20:39:24 ( let foo = "world" in interpolate "Hello, ${bar}!" 20:39:24 When elaborating argument x to function Melvar.Interpolate.interpolate: 20:39:25 No such variable bar 20:39:41 int-e: i don't think that is wise because the cantor set _itself_ can easily be transformed 20:39:57 so you don't really have the tree stable 20:40:40 oerjan: Yes, basically I'm wondering how weird the resulting tree rotations can become. 20:42:06 (abusing the term "tree rotation" -- a tree rotation is a transformation of a tree that doesn't change the order of the leaves) 20:42:24 err leafs. 20:50:04 int-e: i suspect a finite number of tags is impossible, by an explicitly constructed isomorphism 20:50:31 that is, assume that between any two tags all the others must be represented 20:50:56 (if not, pass to a subtree) 20:51:41 and assume two trees use the same set of tags 20:52:06 then i think you can construct a rotation that identifies the tags 20:53:30 plausible. 20:57:23 argh weekend neighbor party 21:05:42 Heh, Wikipedia. 21:05:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensionless_physical_constant "A common example is the fine-structure constant α, with approximate value Expression error: Unexpected < operator.[1]" 21:06:17 Admittedly that seems quite dimensionless. 21:06:44