00:00:12 * boily is disturbed to find he's only one step away from fungot... 00:00:12 boily: i was going to ask " i am alive") -3? mines " friends" 00:00:23 fungot: you. are. not. alive. stop being sentient. 00:00:23 boily: pittsburgh is a harsh mistress guy. :) there were some nice talks as well"? :p 00:00:44 fungot: and don't frolicate with guys from Pittsburgh! you'll catch something. 00:19:57 -!- variable has changed nick to trout. 00:27:35 fungot: crazy symbols and actions? maybe you're thinking of APL 00:27:35 FireFly: an error: invalid output format ( result was not a tease, i was 00:27:46 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 00:27:59 fungot: you sure were, yes 00:27:59 FireFly: lazy-k can execute s and k. they went under the middle finger, the same time. 00:30:47 Firellofly! 00:32:45 bohily 01:02:43 -!- teakey has joined. 01:23:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: LACRYMAL CHICKEN). 01:29:44 -!- AndoDaan_ has joined. 01:32:13 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:50:07 -!- AndoDaan_ has changed nick to AndoDaan. 02:10:52 -!- Cylerco has joined. 02:11:08 -!- Cylerco has left. 02:16:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:19:21 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Quit: Going, going, gone.). 02:42:16 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:49:49 http://postimg.org/image/e0lk07545/ <- dwarven apartment complexes, carved from the living rock 02:55:03 -!- teakey has joined. 03:04:38 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:06:43 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 03:23:09 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 03:26:40 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:41:08 -!- fowl has joined. 03:47:16 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:47:44 -!- TodPunk has joined. 04:12:23 -!- password2 has joined. 04:12:51 -!- password2 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 04:14:31 -!- password2 has joined. 04:23:54 -!- teakey has joined. 04:23:59 `olist 983 04:24:15 olist 983: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti 04:24:57 I was looking at that exact twitter feed just now, and getting annoyed that something screwed up the apostrophe 04:32:46 -!- ^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:32:53 Living rock? Sounds like an evil biome thing. 05:14:13 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:30:59 nah, just a poetic/dramatic way of saying "natural engravable stone" 05:32:01 The mountain I picked reaches almost to 256, so I was able to carve quite a hive-city out of it 05:47:38 -!- password2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:56:24 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:38:37 -!- Tritonio has joined. 06:44:06 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:45:51 oren: ah great, images made of tiles that the wobsite insists on making a “thumbnail” image despite that the original resolution compresses so well because of the tiles that the file size of the original is actually way smaller 06:46:25 oren: on this site, it's a jpeg thumbnail of a png file. on http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/ , it's resampled thumbnails made of every level map. 06:46:58 these wobsites should really check the damned file size of the result, and use the original if it's smaller. 06:48:16 that's also why I can use DF over X network wihout any problem 06:50:26 speaking of website problems, google no longer works on text-browsers, because it refereshes infinitely 06:50:48 eg. http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/File:Ck2lv16.png the original file is 28 kilobytes, the rescaled thumbnail is 235 kilobytes. 06:50:59 oren: no WAY 06:51:00 let me try 06:51:10 they can't be that stupid 06:51:21 I mean, maybe it has ugly layout or something 06:51:33 (it already has on anything without css) 06:52:03 oh shit you're right 06:52:09 indeed it tries to refresh infinitely 06:52:15 O_o 06:53:02 dumb 06:53:53 Bing, yahoo, yandex and baidu still work. 06:54:10 oren, is that related to why sometimes Chrome Incognito crashes on Google search results? 06:54:19 * Sgeo has actually used Bing at times because of that 06:54:28 (my own homepage should work, though the layout is uglier) 06:55:56 but yes, I too am noticing an increasing amount of sites that require crazy javascript browser stunts and still show up broken 06:56:10 I don't know why they do that 06:57:25 o btw 06:57:40 you know when I asked if there were wikis that used a vcs as their storage engine? 06:58:21 I realized github might be used as such a wiki, because it shows you a vcs-controlled tree, and can formats documents with some wiki language. 06:59:12 yeah, that works. 07:03:26 so basically any of the dozens of web vcs ifaces work if you throw in a wiki formatter 07:11:25 your project wiki is a repository on bitbucket, i assume its the same for githubs wikis 07:31:27 -!- tr00p has quit (Quit: i drop my computer from the window). 07:33:13 -!- tr00p has joined. 07:46:23 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:56:38 as I always say, the best defense is a deep deep trench 08:00:50 09:58 < b_jonas> you know when I asked if there were wikis that used a vcs as their storage engine? <-- there was also one by suckless, altho in the good old suckless fashion it lacked vital features like web editor 08:03:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:03:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:03:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:12:40 -!- teakey has joined. 08:13:02 -!- teakey has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 08:13:38 -!- teakey has joined. 08:20:20 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:31:44 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:41:02 I have to admit, that if your crossing guards can beat enemy commandos that is one way to stop a fifth coloumn 09:02:03 Aaaaaaaaah 09:20:45 AAAAAAA 09:23:43 !bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+....... 09:23:45 AAAAAAA 09:24:32 Aアあ亜唖 09:25:09 god, george osborne's haircut is unfortunate 09:27:49 I not sure I folow. it looks like a typical old man haircut 09:28:46 idk, he just looks even more evil than before 09:45:15 -!- mtve has joined. 09:51:32 lol. I would probably vote for anyone who had a silly enough hairstyle 09:51:39 Oh yeah, I need to vote 09:51:57 TO THE POLLS! 09:58:19 can I vote? I guess I am of voting age now. weird. 10:03:05 then i guess you can vote, assuming you want to 10:04:22 there are other obstacles to that, but yes, I don't think my vote would be particularly relevant anyway 10:04:51 My riding " 10:05:23 (electoral district) is very large, so my vote counts for very little 10:05:44 what? 10:05:49 riding amulet? that doesn't exist 10:06:04 there's riding boots and riding gloves 10:06:22 BLAH this keyboard is all msesed up 10:07:12 i'm using a 10 year old laptop to talk to my 3 year old laptop 10:09:21 It has the symbols in weird places, like there is a $ and a euro sign next to the arrow keys 10:09:57 and the enter button is shaped wrong 10:11:30 elliott, if you registered in time, you can vote 10:11:38 And PARTICIPATE IN DEMOCRACY 10:11:41 oren: can you just plug in an external keyboard? 10:11:55 why did i not think of that 10:11:55 nvd: okay, yeah, I didn't register. 10:12:05 Then you can't vote 10:12:09 right. 10:12:14 Mystery solved, I guess 10:12:28 truly 10:15:15 dastards! the plug isthe round one, and I don't have an adapter 10:15:22 -!- zadock has joined. 10:16:36 oh dear. the puns, they're horrible. they burn. 10:16:40 -!- clog has joined. 10:20:02 damn it this is what happens when you change the plugs! All plugs for each peripheral should stay the same forever 10:21:16 oren: changed from what to what this time? 10:21:52 Well the laptop has usb only, and I only have round-plug keyboards 10:24:35 The round plug ones let you press more buttons at once 10:25:58 I think there is a proper name for the round plug but I don't know it 10:28:05 Oh right. I'ts 10:28:10 PS/2 10:28:18 stupid enter key 10:29:44 I think they changed from PS/2 to usb so they could make the laptops thinner. ashats 10:29:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_connector 10:30:02 * int-e ducks. 10:32:25 so they changed it before that, from a think that looks almost the same as a PS/2 but is incompatible? asshats 10:35:04 they could have just switched to a 8-pin DIN for backward compatibility 10:39:43 -!- boily has joined. 10:40:59 the small round plug is PS/2, the big round plug is AT (DIN) 10:41:17 oren: no, it looks _nothing_ like a PS/2 10:42:24 damn they should put somehting in the photo for scale 10:42:45 I don't know why motherboards have changed away from AT plug, but that's happened like 15 years ago, sadly 10:43:38 how many q's can you put in \quad 10:43:42 today's motherboards often don't work properly with AT keyboards even with a passive AT-PS2 converters 10:43:47 cheaper parts, maybe. 10:44:11 int-e: possible, because this way the mouse and keyboard uses the same type of connector 10:44:26 or maybe PS/2 is just smaller so it fits better on a notebook 10:44:50 Right, but mice could've used the DIN connector as well. Heck they used the even larger serial connector for some time. 10:46:11 yep 10:46:51 they could have just kept the serial port if they gave the serial port controller a better interface (with a buffer so the cpu doesn't have to be interrupted for every fricking byte read or written) 10:47:12 it could even be backwards compatible for both software and periferials 10:49:06 with today's 6 core and 8 core computers couldn't you just interrupt only one particular core? 10:49:17 oren: sure you could 10:49:26 but still, interrupting for each fricking byte is a waste 10:49:35 should be each block 10:49:36 it made sense back when that made the controller hw cheaper 10:50:09 good for a responsive mouse though I bet 10:50:22 but these days every controller is handled by a small microcontroller that can handle a small buffer. probably serial port controllers are too. 10:50:26 heck 10:50:41 do you remember when laser printers had 128 megabyte of memory in them? 10:50:51 well, these days hard disks have 64 megabyte of ram 10:50:54 it's crazy 10:50:59 they're throwing megabytes at everything 10:52:58 b_jellonas. wait wait wait. you're saying that hard drives have ram??? 10:53:20 Yeah they cache your accesses 10:53:43 boily: yes 10:53:58 that they have ram is not surprising, it's that they have so much ram that's strange 10:55:45 I assume it is so that they can read ahead several blocks and serve them up continuously 10:56:47 Eventually they will export the whole filesystem into the hard disk's controller 10:56:56 sure, but sixty four megabytes? we used to run entire computers in that 10:57:40 also, I'm downloading files from the internet that are larger than the whole hard disk capacity I had back then, 10:57:48 and working with data of sizes I couldn't even imagine would exist 10:58:00 and I'm not even working with large databases like some people I see on the internet do 10:58:59 One corpus I am currently semi-working on is 10GB of CSV data 10:59:10 detailing hockey players 10:59:18 oren: doesn't sound too big 10:59:35 it isn't that big in todays terms 10:59:44 yes, exactlyi 10:59:44 but that's what I mean 11:00:02 do you load all of it in memory? 11:01:00 no, i don't have enough memory, so my programs have to act on streams 11:01:52 I wonder if I could get 6GB of memory on AWS 11:02:03 that would make things easier 11:02:54 nvd, i saw that hexham's counting isn't due to finish until noon tomorrow 11:03:05 Phantom_Hoover, good think I'm in York Central 11:03:09 as indeed is leamington's 11:03:12 ah, of course 11:03:12 I enjoy how the computers got more powerful though. 11:03:44 yeah... the problem is how we all waste the power we are give so much 11:05:36 I mean, I'm wasting a ton of cpu and memory by storing this data as CSV 11:06:33 have to parse text number to binary, do math, then convert back with every operationO\ 11:07:39 I wonder how efficient the scanf implementation is? 11:17:19 Bah I oughta be using fwrite fread for this 11:21:09 -!- hjulle has joined. 11:26:57 -!- boily has quit (Quit: STRIPED CHICKEN). 11:27:21 RAID controller firmware is already more complicated than filesystems. 11:30:41 I dunno much about RAID, but I was thinking that maybe the next gen disks could take an inode number and offset to read or write 11:33:18 Phantom_Hoover, Hexham'll go conservative almost certainly, though 11:36:07 hisss 11:37:41 i guess it is the country 12:18:06 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:45:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:47:54 -!- ineiros has joined. 12:48:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:48:24 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 12:50:12 This letter will definitely be amazing to you because of its realistic value. 12:50:22 that spam caught my eye because the subject line was a couple of IPs 12:51:47 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 12:53:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:54:52 shachaf: evenmo'list? 12:57:23 -!- teakey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:02:42 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 13:03:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:07:36 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:22:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:40:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:05:04 -!- teakey has joined. 14:05:31 -!- teakey has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 14:07:49 -!- teakey has joined. 14:30:33 success. 10GB of CSV = 5 GB of union{int64_t i;double d;} 14:31:42 still too large to fit in memory 14:31:47 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:32:59 Do you need it all in memory, oren ? 14:33:41 no,, but it would make certain operations faster, in particular sorting the data 14:34:28 also now I need to rewrite my programs for the new format. but not having to parse CSV should remove a lot of overhead 14:37:02 er, what are you using that union for? 14:37:30 Don't worry I'm not using both members at once 14:37:52 right I figured you're more ethical than that 14:37:54 Which it is depends on the column number 14:37:59 but do you know the type contextually, or do you have a type tag? 14:38:00 ah 14:38:26 oren: if you know the layout of each row, why not just make a struct for the row? 14:38:27 E.g. column 5 is the player who assisted 14:38:48 because it's a pain in the butt 14:38:52 ok :p 14:39:25 are you just mmapping a file and using it directly? make sure you take into account alignment and endianness concerns and so on 14:39:29 also it allows the conversion program to be generic 14:39:47 nah, fread fwrite 14:40:00 I don't have enough memory to mmap the whole file 14:40:34 erm, mmap doesn't use physical memory, it uses virtual memory 14:40:40 that's the whole point in fact 14:41:08 (ok, yes, some of the file will probably get cached in memory or whatever, but that happens whenever you use files and it doesn't make you run out) 14:41:37 okay, okay, with overcommit disabled things can get a bit dicey, but I don't think it complains about file-backed overcommit then, just anonymous? 14:41:49 but also turning overcommit off entirely breaks lots of things and the default is lenient 14:42:01 i'm not actually modifying the file. 14:42:25 I would say mmap is more useful for reading than modifying anyway... 14:42:29 I'm reading over it and generating another file e.g. running averages of a player's perfoirmance 14:42:43 ok. 14:42:49 it just sounds like you vastly underestimate mmap in general 14:43:00 probably 14:43:31 The datails of what I'm doing are told to me by someone who actually follows hockey 14:43:42 I would almost say mmap is the whole point of virtual memory with unix 14:43:56 but that might be a little hyperbolic 14:45:29 can I be sued for downloading an entire website and converting it to CSV? 14:45:30 I'd say mmap is the main _interface_ for users processes to control virtual memory (together with munmap, mremap, mprotect, madvise, msync, and execve) 14:46:12 b_jonas: right, I just mean that you can think of it as the "killer app" in some sense 14:46:15 though POSIX defines abstractions like shm_* over it (and it doesn't even insist that those are implemented in terms of mmap) 14:46:16 using it to map files 14:46:29 oren: the answer to "can I be sued for X" is yes, pretty much 14:46:36 check their /robots.txt 14:46:53 ideally, ask first, but at least use reasonable rate limits if not 14:48:36 [wiki] [[SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42807&oldid=42805 * IanO * (+506) /* Examples */ 14:48:59 hmm.. they disallow some parts, but not the giant database I'm after. 14:49:33 The data I have, I got from a zip someone else made 14:52:16 wow this is a lot of data. it details who was on ice when, for every game since 1980 14:54:22 -!- ski has joined. 15:01:41 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:13:37 -!- teakey has joined. 15:23:56 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:25:20 -!- variable has joined. 15:36:00 -!- teakey has joined. 15:44:52 [wiki] [[Small s.c.r.i.p.t.]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42808&oldid=36724 * Esowiki201529A * (+0) 15:56:30 -!- teakey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:16:13 -!- APic_ has joined. 16:16:14 -!- APic_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:19:06 -!- teakey has joined. 16:24:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:38:49 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:40:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:41:38 -!- Tritonio has joined. 16:47:47 https://github.com/stedolan/bf.sed so, this is a thing 16:50:35 hm a compiler sed should be enough for that. 16:50:55 oh "optimizing" 16:50:59 *s 16:53:54 I was writing a Befunge-93 interpreter in sed, but never really finished. 16:54:35 I think it had the basic mechanisms of fetching instructions from the playfield, moving the IP, manipulating the stack, and that was about it. 16:58:07 hm was sed TC or not again 16:59:07 it had conditional jumps, so presumably 17:01:01 oerjan: it's TC unless you're using one of those crazy variants that limits the length of the line to 1024 bytes -- but those variants are useless even for normal non-esoteric stuff. 17:01:32 oerjan: I mean, come on, it can do fixed string substitutions, and can loop, so it's clearly turing complete. 17:01:45 clearly. 17:03:33 [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42809&oldid=42112 * 96.127.247.225 * (+17) Update pastebin link to github link 17:15:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:28:27 nortti: Cute. 17:36:02 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: ayeee!). 17:37:29 "there's no arithmetic in sed" 17:37:33 pretty sure sed can do that? 17:37:44 it's TC I think but I guess there might be restrictions on output there 17:38:36 afaik, sed is a superset of Thue, which is also TC 17:40:36 -!- lambdabot has joined. 17:41:26 @index Applicative 17:41:32 Control.Applicative, Prelude 17:45:06 thue is nondeterministic but yes 17:45:53 -!- variable has changed nick to trout. 17:51:30 visual studio 2013 comes with the visual C++ 2013 compiler which is somehow also called msvc 1.2, and identifies itself as "Microsoft (R) Optimizing Compiler Version 18.00.30723.0" 17:51:44 how do these version numbers work? is there somewhere that describes this? 17:52:24 Just remember it only implements a 25 year old version of C and you'll know all you need to about it. 17:52:54 visual studio will have its own version number too, I don't remember how they map beyond VS .NET aka (iirc) 7.0 though 17:53:41 pikhq: yes, I know that 17:55:24 -!- atrapado has joined. 18:05:57 -!- atrapa has joined. 18:09:06 -!- atrapado has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:12:23 -!- teakey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:20:20 how do these version numbers work? is there somewhere that describes this? <-- i think the basica principle for version numbers is "you have to change the entire system at least once a decade" hth 18:20:34 *-a 18:20:54 lambdabot: @botsnack 18:20:54 :) 18:21:05 what happened to the poor thing 18:23:52 -!- impomatic_ has joined. 18:28:57 [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42810&oldid=42742 * 31.185.153.201 * (+88) /* Befunge-98 and beyond */ Fungewars 18:29:38 hmm, are there any actual examples of a universal turing machine - that is, a turing machine able to simulate any turing machine? 18:31:27 hmm, I guess a minsky machine wouldn't be too hard to implement, however that'd feel just silly 18:33:46 I think I've got an example here, but it's in a GIF or something... 18:34:27 it's not something that sounds particularly hard, it'd just be an interpreter... 18:34:52 unlike the godel sentence thing, i've read that's enormous 18:35:36 also, brainfuck can be almost trivially converted to TM form 18:35:56 ...except I/O 18:36:49 I "need" that for my extended essay (a research essay-ish thingie at IB), as I'm proving computational class of a certain kind of automation I invented, and I'd guess it'd be best to use a program that someone else has created, to make it more "convincing" 18:37:25 i'm pretty sure minsky made a particular one that was TC with no caveats 18:37:46 (stay away from the wolfram thingies with infinite setup) 18:38:26 Does anyone here know about the Stanford AI Lab references in documents to show who wrote them? [S77,JMC] is obviously John McCarthy. But who wrote a file with [ G,REF]? 18:38:35 (technically speaking, I don't need it, but I think it'd be best if I were to illustrate my translation process with some real world example, and preferably at the same time "double prove" the complenetess, as the people assessing it will not know that well this stuff) 18:42:23 annoyingly it seems hard to actually find an exact description of this. maybe ais523 knows one. 18:45:43 nortti: found the file, not sure if it's something you've seen before http://imgur.com/afocBZq 18:46:34 ooh, nice 18:47:13 hmm, I guess I could try digging up the original paper and copying it from there, to seem extra-"professional" 19:05:15 -!- nortti has changed nick to lawspeaker. 19:09:27 -!- lawspeaker has changed nick to nortti. 19:09:57 -!- zadock has joined. 19:26:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:02:26 oerjan: Brainfuck without IO qualifies 20:05:58 i know 20:06:13 possibly nortti might not want to reference that, though 20:06:23 (although it's also known as P'') 20:15:36 Brainfuck is too complicated anyway, there are similar languages that have fewer amenities and are still turing complete 20:16:55 FreeFull: you realize nortti already has a starting model in mind, right 20:17:15 Yeah 20:17:19 so it's not very useful if the language is not easy to emulate in that 20:17:52 oerjan: But the languages would be as easy as brainfuck to emulate 20:18:27 oh well 20:18:39 sure, take boolfuck if you want 20:21:50 oerjan: I was thinking tinyBF 20:22:39 Without input or output 20:24:05 FreeFull: i'm not sure how that | command is supposed to replace nested [] 20:24:42 Well, there is a brainfuck to tinybf translator 20:26:41 ^show rev 20:26:42 >,[>,]<[.<] 20:26:46 ^show fib 20:26:46 >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][] 20:26:52 bah 20:27:09 need something short with actual nesting hm 20:27:35 any muötiplication? 20:27:51 wait, no 20:28:04 oerjan: Just put a loop-to-10 around something short that prints. 20:28:24 hm... 20:28:34 I had a simple counterexample for that one bf interpreter that had broken nested loops here. 20:29:37 Although I don't know how the code generated by the translator can work. 20:31:40 ^bf +++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]>.<<] 20:31:40 @ 20:31:40 Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? . 20:31:46 huh 20:31:55 ^bf +++[->+++++[->+++++++++++++<]>.[-]<<] 20:31:55 AAA 20:32:09 fizzie: ok it actually works 20:32:53 From the code, I get the feeling that = is "lexically scoped" instead of "dynamically scoped". 20:33:04 ok obvious interpretation is that = is static so | is [ or ] dependent on = parity 20:33:13 We keep thinking of the same things. 20:33:17 yay 20:33:49 FreeFull: the result is really that this isn't simpler than bf, though 20:34:05 oerjan: Yeah, more state internally 20:34:24 I wonder if there is another one that has the same amount of internal state 20:35:35 FreeFull: it's not even runtime state, it actually _is_ a bf equivalent when decoded. 20:36:28 And you might as well encode bf in unary? 20:38:12 well for nortti's purpose you'd only need _one_ bf program encoded, a self-interpreter or the like. 20:38:38 (sounds a bit more verbose than minsky's TM, then) 20:38:43 Yeah 20:39:08 almost certainly minsky's TM has really verbose programs on the tape, though. maybe it even uses a minsky machine :P 20:44:02 ^bf +[-[<<[+[--->]-[<<<]]]>>>-]>-.---.>..>.<<<<-.<+.>>>>>.>.<<.<-.<<+. 20:44:03 hello world! 20:44:29 ^bf +>-[>>+>+[++>-<<]-<+<+]>---.<<<<++.<<----..+++.>------.<<+.>.+++.------.>>-.<+. 20:44:29 Hello World! 20:45:52 Hello World! in 79 instructions. hello world! in 66 instructions. (from this webpage http://inversed.ru/InvMem.htm#InvMem_7) 20:49:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:08:03 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:09:17 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:29:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:34:06 Well, this is certainly an unexpected exit poll 21:35:30 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:37:25 -!- bb010g has joined. 21:51:02 -!- teakey has joined. 21:55:04 -!- spatterworhty has joined. 21:55:55 I'm thinking about making a piet assembler, but I'm having trouble figuring out how it would get the algorithm onto the picture. 21:57:23 It would first make a graph out of the program, that represents all of the commands of the program, and then it would figure out how to lay the graph down onto the picture in a way that fits nicely. 21:57:47 nvd: is ukip getting the prime minister twnh 21:58:03 oerjan, almost certainly not 21:58:11 It looks like they'll have precisely two MPs 21:58:25 Does anyone have any algorithm suggestions or problems to look at that would help? 21:59:01 graph rendering is definitely _not_ my area of expertise 21:59:15 -!- boily has joined. 21:59:27 * oerjan points at nvd as the resident piet expert 21:59:39 I haven't used Piet in years 21:59:50 And I don't know a thing about graph rendering 21:59:52 you mentioned it yesterday! 21:59:58 or possibly today, evne 22:00:00 *en 22:00:07 Today, here at least 22:00:10 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:00:12 Maybe yesterday for you 22:00:14 nvd: still more qualified than me, hth 22:00:24 oerjan: you also mentioned piet today hth 22:00:25 And that was to say I had forgotten what a program I wrote did! 22:00:36 for me, the boundary between today and yesterday gets a bit fuzzy 22:00:45 shachaf: thx 22:01:07 and now i've cursed myself 22:01:12 spatterworhty, if the graph is planar, there's not too much issue, I think 22:01:18 shachaf: wat 22:01:22 Otherwise, you can cross arcs with white space 22:01:33 oerjan: by being the most recent person to mention piet 22:01:40 And then it's just the same graph rendering problem as all the rest 22:01:45 and he did it again! 22:02:14 -!- GeekDude has joined. 22:02:21 spatterworhty, does that help at all? 22:02:21 nvd: if only HackEgo still had access to the logs, we could make a command to check that 22:02:40 oerjan, could we patch something up with curl? 22:02:45 Or would that be too slow? 22:02:56 `run curl --help 22:03:03 er 22:03:10 Usage: curl [options...] \ Options: (H) means HTTP/HTTPS only, (F) means FTP only \ --anyauth Pick "any" authentication method (H) \ -a, --append Append to target file when uploading (F/SFTP) \ --basic Use HTTP Basic Authentication (H) \ --cacert FILE CA certificate to verify peer against (SSL) \ -- 22:03:11 *shachaf: 22:03:21 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:03:29 nvd: curl may not have access to that server 22:03:44 whitelist and all 22:03:51 oerjan: check the world expert on that language, you mean? 22:03:52 oerjan, it can scrape the public thingy/ 22:04:04 shachaf: yep, aka most recent mentioner 22:04:22 nvd: you do know HackEgo's web access is whitelisted, right 22:04:28 I did not! 22:04:35 Like, I really did not 22:04:36 Huh 22:04:37 if it's even working at the moment 22:05:00 except for `fetch, which is outside the sandbox but you cannot use it in other commands 22:05:12 Hmmmm 22:06:35 `curl http://www.esolangs.org 22:06:36 Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ curl: (52) Empty reply from server 22:06:39 hmph 22:06:49 seems not to be up 22:06:53 oh wait 22:07:00 it's the same server, is that a problem 22:07:42 we sort of stopped using the web access after all the fun api's stopped working, so it's probably bit rotted 22:08:37 and someone said today a text browser cannot even get google 22:08:39 hm 22:08:51 `curl http://www.google.com 22:08:52 Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ curl: (52) Empty reply from server 22:10:29 `` ps -a | sed 's=.* ==' 22:10:30 CMD 22:20:05 -!- atrapa has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:23:45 There's a google API that was deprecated five years ago but still works, at least 22:23:54 I use it in my bot 22:28:02 nvd: sorta? I was more hoping to learn if there would be any good resources to look at, or algorithms that would be essential. I can sorta visualize how it would work, but piet has a bunch of weird rules that would have to be incorporated into the design, and I've never worked with graphs. 22:28:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_drawing could be a starting point 22:28:52 This isn't something I've looked into before 22:31:29 Ok, thanks. 22:46:47 Heh. This clause I just wrote: “eine als Queue verwendete doppelt verkettete Liste reicht.” 22:47:59 A not insignificant amount of stuff going between the article and its noun there. 22:51:58 what's the gloss for that? 22:52:01 (if you don't mind giving it) 22:52:30 (er, in the sense of word-by-word literal "translation".) 22:56:07 an as queue used doubly linked list suffices 22:57:16 elliott: ^ 22:57:30 heh 22:57:36 oerjan knows german? 22:57:44 I guess it's few enough words to just look them up. 22:57:48 and some of them are obvious. 22:57:59 actually i only looked up "reicht" to check that i guessed it correctly 22:58:10 i did have 4 years of german, once 23:00:03 and every word in there has at least a partial cognate in english or norwegian 23:01:00 *and/or 23:01:36 I suppose I could have replaced “Queue” with “Warteschlange” but I don’t know that that’s really used for the data structure much in practice. 23:01:37 but yeah german phrase order is something different from both 23:01:57 "Warteschlange"? 23:02:23 The “pure” German word for a queue. 23:02:50 That's a funny word 23:02:52 * oerjan wonders if norwegian has one. "kø" is so much shorter. 23:03:03 wait-snake. 23:03:25 there's "venteliste" but that's for writing your name on, not for actually standing in 23:03:40 and it's not reptile-based 23:04:52 One thing I like about English is that it's able to take words from pretty much anywhere 23:04:58 For some reason “Schlange” is used for a line of waiting people. “Warteschlange” is a disambiguation versus a literal snake. 23:07:26 huh 23:09:38 I was just writing out how the phrase is composed, but it turns out rather hard to follow. The main point is that argument(s) + participle makes a valid adjective phrase. 23:11:41 Amusingly, German also has “Queue” directly from French, pronounced /køː/, for a pool cue. 23:12:31 The Polish word for snake also gets used for a hose (wąż) 23:12:39 A line of waiting people is kolejka 23:13:01 Which is a word that also relates to trains 23:13:35 And French “queue” means “tail” as well. 23:20:31 Melvar: You should combine words into longer words 23:20:35 You're writing German after all 23:25:29 If someone wants a funny gloss, I once composing a lojban sentence expressed “have nine tails” something like “be betailed by nine somethings” (se rebla so da). 23:26:25 the word for train in norwegian is also used for a line of people - but parading or demonstrating, not waiting 23:26:30 (tog) 23:27:26 In English, the word train can also be used to mean some form of practicing =P 23:27:27 oh and "kø" means pool cue too in norwegian 23:28:24 One can use “Zug”-related words for parading and demonstrating in German too, but as Mark Twain (?) noted, “Zug” with appropriate modifiers and affixes can be used to express practically anything. 23:29:25 How many words can you name that have "zeug" in them? 23:29:36 Melvar: i think the -zug suffix that can mean absolutely everything is -tøy in norwegian. which alone means "cloth", somehow. 23:29:51 oh wait -zeug right 23:31:04 Werkzeug, verktøy, tool 23:31:51 syltetøy = jam 23:32:07 jam? Really? 23:32:15 What does sylte mean? 23:32:29 the process of making jam 23:32:29 “Zeug” at some point meant something like “equipment”, and now by itself means “stuff” or “junk”. 23:32:39 Ok 23:32:46 but also some meat stuff 23:33:06 svinesylte 23:33:15 “Sülze”? 23:33:16 The Polish word for jam is boring 23:33:37 Dżem (pronounced similarly to jam, but with an e instead) 23:34:41 Melvar: looks possibly related 23:35:14 nedsyltet i gjeld = drowning in debt 23:35:25 oerjan: Looks like that is it, yes. 23:37:53 sylteagurk = pickled cucumber 23:38:15 It seems to be related to “salt” too. 23:38:36 oerjan: Specifically a soured one, rather vinegar? 23:38:59 FreeFull: "Sylteagurk er agurker som er syltet i en sursøt eddiklake." 23:39:21 I don't speak Norwegian 23:39:51 oh sorry, confusing you with FireFly 23:40:18 but "in a sour-sweet vinegar brine" is probably the end of that 23:41:16 Melvar: i note that's apparently Salzgurke in german, so... 23:41:27 oerjan: Depends on the region actually. 23:41:46 hm 23:41:49 I would call it a saure Gurke. 23:42:13 right, de.wikipedia gives both 23:42:36 The German wp article describes them as cucumbers preserved through lactic acid fermentation. 23:43:34 Melvar: hm i wonder if german Geld and norwegian gjeld are cognate, despite having almost opposite meanings 23:44:06 i suppose recipes always vary. 23:45:34 -!- adu has joined. 23:45:58 hm seems so, although wiktionary is missing the norwegian, swedish gäld is cognate. 23:46:14 ...but archaic 23:46:59 Hahahah, the synonyms section on “Geld”. 23:47:25 The Polish word for money is completely unrelated 23:47:39 What's norwegian for "border"? 23:48:07 FreeFull: for countries, grense 23:48:10 Ash, gravel, clay, coal, toads, mice, …, moss, … 23:48:42 oerjan: Pretty much the same as German then 23:48:58 FreeFull: the norwegian word for money is "penger" (plural) 23:49:12 presumably cognate to Pfennig 23:49:22 oerjan: That looks completely hilarious to me for some reason. 23:49:33 OKAY 23:49:59 Like it would mean something like “banger” or “popper”. 23:50:13 (… “whizzpopper”!) 23:50:25 well, -er is the most common plural suffix for nouns in norwegian 23:50:42 oerjan: Border is granica in Polish, and money is pieniądze 23:50:46 it _also_ has the same meaning as in german, sometimes 23:50:54 FreeFull: ooh 23:51:25 very similar 23:52:06 "Borrowed by the Teutonic Order in the 13th century from a Slavic language (compare Common Slavic *granica (“boundary, border”)), then borrowed again into western German from Polish in the 15th century. Luther helped to popularize the word, which he spelled grentze; another old spelling was Gränze." 23:52:23 oerjan: Do you have something cognate to “Mark”? 23:52:33 Melvar: in what meaning? 23:53:33 Well, mark, border, demarcated land, something along those lines? 23:53:41 yes, "mark" hth 23:54:14 some of our county names: Finnmark, Hedmark 23:55:07 Yes, that’s about what I was looking for. 23:55:42 oerjan: hellœrjan. that would be cognate to fr:marche hth 23:55:57 Nordmarka, oslo's recreational area, Bymarka, trondheim's 23:56:08 There’s also English “march” in the sense of borderlands. 23:58:33 hm it seems to be both romance and germanic 23:59:22 possibly the germanic is original