< 1424390963 723817 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also you can get slate and chalk, but you can't make chalkboards!! < 1424391612 568157 :tru23!5984b8c0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.132.184.192 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424391659 807278 :tru23!5984b8c0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.132.184.192 QUIT :Client Quit < 1424391964 900224 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1424392007 868801 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1424392091 455241 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1424392301 905551 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1424392509 371304 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1424393264 252444 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1424393996 959817 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you should tell them to fix it so that it is possible to make chalkboards < 1424394256 350128 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The specification for a Hamster archive format can fit on the back of your business card. < 1424395072 899728 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1424395496 205868 :not^v!~notnot^v@2601:4:680:104c:e17b:f875:f2de:cd5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424397265 913792 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424397965 925479 :not^v!~notnot^v@2601:4:680:104c:e17b:f875:f2de:cd5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1424398604 289185 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424400035 660807 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1424400747 218623 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell int-e Ah, the CHICKEN! have a history of Poulet! which appeared out of nowhere on 2012-08-08. <-- there are stray poulets even up to last october! also he took a _long_ time to get regular. < 1424400747 402344 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1424401526 340956 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: Koen_ < 1424402593 913651 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1424404562 500326 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424404596 279606 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1424404696 885450 :merdach!~r@c-71-59-196-85.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1 < 1424406362 116328 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424406396 849659 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1424406553 593104 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1424407519 927015 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424408053 864948 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1424408085 899744 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1424408162 31231 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDream < 1424408992 752204 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424409017 237728 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1424412146 1715 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424412261 923293 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1424413908 899438 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1424414548 12578 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ping < 1424414566 65901 :merdach!~r@c-71-59-196-85.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424414774 405025 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: OK < 1424414791 148221 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there's an easy solution for constructing a Babson task like you asked < 1424414798 892206 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for M:tG < 1424414817 524129 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it then? I didn't try to figure it out much so I don't know < 1424414863 115778 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The key is to use one of the dozens of cards that use "with the same name" in their rules. < 1424414997 796309 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have 6 life, opponent has 20. Opponent has Arcane Laboratory and Asceticism and Bedlam in play, you have a Squire. None of you have lands, but there's some suspended Lotus Blooms so that opponent gets 6 mana in his turn, then you get 6 mana in your turn, then you get 6 mana in your turn after that. It's the start of the opponent's turn. < 1424415018 809865 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both of you have some mathcing 1/1 creatures that are vanilla or have no relevant abilities (flying or first strike are ok), and you also have an Echoing Decay. < 1424415042 831353 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Opponent may play a creature, and the only way you can win is by playing the same creature then playing Echoing Decay on your own creature next turn, then beat him with the Squire. < 1424415161 215383 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This already allows tens of creatures (you may need Spellbooks to set it up), and can be extended to much more if you increase the life total of the opponent and replace Echoing Decay with Bile Blight so you can use creatures of size up to 3/3. < 1424415232 202873 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, although I was thinking of stuff that doesn't say "with the same name"; I have thought of a few other examples but not the way to combine them. < 1424415235 735731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :construct something complicated involving a bounce-to-top-of-library card and Search the City < 1424415244 185828 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just so that Search the City gets some use ;-) < 1424415265 56882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I first saw it, I thought it'd be an interesting card at U < 1424415267 551168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it costs 4U < 1424415318 649750 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'd still like to see a construction that doesn't use "same name", but instead relies on creature cards with different power-toughness. < 1424415327 159387 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's possible, but I haven't found one. < 1424415356 700222 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something I thought of for example is Dark Depths and Aether Snap. < 1424415373 220633 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to note though that there's lot more cards with "same name" then I thought, and I think half a dozen can be used for this construction < 1424415416 862287 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, they may need extra cards for the set up, but the basic idea is the same) < 1424415432 350740 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides Echoing Decay and Bile Blight, Detention Sphere also works, < 1424415483 108893 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, that might work < 1424415508 389210 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sever the Bloodline also works < 1424415541 258969 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are two cards that destroy enchantments with the same name, those can probably be made to work < 1424415549 997757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: for power/toughness total, there's brainstorm + wild pair + whatever that card is that steals all creature spells when they're cast < 1424415645 444060 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what? < 1424415656 486197 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1424415666 530453 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, I don't really understand < 1424415684 991241 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... < 1424415796 737154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't even need brainstorm if the matching card is allowed to start in your library rather than your hand, that was just to put a card in hand back into your library < 1424415844 355598 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might be possible to set up something where it's the actual combat that matters, something with 4/1, 2/3, 0/5 creature cards, switching P/T of your creature, blocking, and making sure you get ahead in combat if you play the exact same creature. < 1424415852 160436 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to think about whether there's such a construction. < 1424416493 749221 :arjanb!8259abdc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.89.171.220 QUIT :Quit: bbl < 1424416866 299857 :fractal!~fractal@unaffiliated/scounder QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1424417023 211949 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, some of what I said and more of what I thought about FFT yesterday was wrong < 1424417041 626292 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to think more about that stuff < 1424417364 530936 :fractal!~fractal@unaffiliated/scounder JOIN :#esoteric < 1424418069 589712 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1424419092 47645 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other one might be Airdrop Condor and Artificial Evolution. < 1424419164 421583 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hmm... something like that could work < 1424419193 250977 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I don't see how you make sure I can't just play a higher power creature < 1424419312 646535 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps there isn't a higher power creatures < 1424419333 109077 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have to make a Babson task with multiple creatures to choose from < 1424419361 488878 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean multiple cards to play; each one may be a different kind of effect < 1424419363 967776 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I want combat, so if you choose a creature with too low power, it can't kill the opponent's creature, but if you choose one with too low toughness, yours doesn't survive < 1424419521 483203 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note also that Artificial Evolution says "The new creature type can't be Wall"; if it didn't say that then you couldn't stop them from activating Airdrop Condor before you are able to change it back, I think? < 1424419562 973536 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what? < 1424419568 848928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1424419665 271814 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they want to change "Goblin" into "Dragon" but if you target the other Artificial Evolution to change "Wall" into "Dragon" then they can't. But otherwise once one spell resolves they can activate it before your spell resolves, because that is the cost of the activated ability < 1424419666 123032 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be very inelegant if I used multiple instants previously suspended with Delay? < 1424419733 360950 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm wait, you might not need that... < 1424419741 217420 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know < 1424419807 250285 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there something like Otherworldly Journey that works on auras? I know you could use Otherworldly Journey too, but it would require heavy machinery, worse than Delay. < 1424419899 960921 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is: Flickerwisp < 1424419933 637975 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Glimmerpoint Stag < 1424419966 683338 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no, it'd be ugly to make those act through turns < 1424420073 619269 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then Delay might be the easiest < 1424420450 249596 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424420502 307651 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there an easy way to give someone only _one_ colored mana (and possibly multiple colorless mana) in a particular turn, the way Lotus Bloom gives three colored mana? < 1424420524 928959 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that could let you get rid of Arcane Laboratory. < 1424420589 450189 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could give one mana the next turn, that's easier, but how do you give one mana the turn after that? < 1424420746 584549 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though for this simple construction with Echoing Decay, it's enough to give one colored mana next turn so you can only play one creature, and three colored mana with Lotus Blood the turn after that and make sure there's no black creatures so you're forced to play only Bile Blight < 1424420914 66856 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to think of a combat-based solution. < 1424420941 733302 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1424421117 534133 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you just have much fewer life than your opponent, and multiple creatures, each of which is the only one that can block the same type of creature: a creature with flying, black creature with fear, a creature with shadow, a creature with horsemanship, and a red creature with intimidate? < 1424421136 421622 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus make sure you can cast only one creature, and you're done < 1424421140 628217 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need for any fancy p/t magic < 1424421154 191552 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and you'll need an extra vanilla creature < 1424421162 334315 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ^ < 1424421193 766394 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus maybe some toughness increasing effects to make sure your blocker survives < 1424421363 708464 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not scalable to more than five to ten creatures, but still < 1424421765 381677 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'll have to think whether that evasion-based method can be combined with a P/T-based method) < 1424421851 19018 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is one idea too, yes < 1424421881 149596 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, it is possible that your blocker might not need to survive < 1424422010 362504 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, it needn't survive actually < 1424422027 428985 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: if you have 1 life, then you die next turn if you don't block < 1424422062 144899 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and suppose you have a large creature that doesn't untap next turn, so you win your second next turn otherwise < 1424422080 271840 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but making your blocker survive is easy enough < 1424422099 13115 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just need ten Veteran Armorers with Pacifism < 1424422188 394083 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an instant that adds just _one_ mana to your mana pool? < 1424422236 290914 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there is, suspended Divergent Growth works if you have ten Reliquary Towers < 1424422267 618310 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you don't need Arcane Laboratory < 1424422297 882409 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or Rule of Law or Eidolon of Rhetoric) < 1424422424 759312 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though if there are really three of these cards, all uncommon in accessible sets, then I might not need to avoid it < 1424422480 78780 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also Curse of Exhaustion < 1424422790 526519 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you can win in another way, such as opponent has no card to draw < 1424424092 610077 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1424424291 71125 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa JOIN :#esoteric < 1424424296 813199 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hi < 1424424328 752237 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :"produce byte #n in O(1) time" <-> "compile the whole thing in O(n) time" < 1424424342 816918 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it fails hard on C++, with its templates < 1424424368 624655 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously, that's a bit out of scope for what you're interested in, but still) < 1424424419 773412 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh -- also, I have no problem per se with "prepared tapes" or infinite CA playfields -- the problem I have is with comparing apples to oranges < 1424424479 596852 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only way I see to fairly compare them is to convert the one to the other < 1424424592 61005 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for "total"... most of my confusion has abated < 1424424634 45757 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not contest that Woulter Swierstra has written a total function which takes Brainfuck programs to possibly-infinite execution traces < 1424424656 661118 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not contest that Brainfuck is Turing-complete < 1424424674 843721 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the turing-complete version of brainfuck, that is :)) < 1424424709 990844 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Wouter < 1424424751 321794 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might not even contest calling Wouter's function "Turing-complete", but that term is sort of a rubbish bin at this point anyway < 1424424799 135937 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to give an example that illustrates my remaining reservations/nonplussedness < 1424424840 67487 :jetpack333!~wuffles@ppp121-45-202-175.lns20.cbr1.internode.on.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424424850 535275 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :Person A writes a function which takes brainfuck programs to possibly-infinite execution traces, represented as lazy lists (a finite list + a continuation) < 1424424854 10289 :jetpack333!~wuffles@ppp121-45-202-175.lns20.cbr1.internode.on.net PART :#esoteric < 1424424878 655872 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :Person B writes a function which takes brainfuck programs to possibly-infinite execution traces, represented as brainfuck programs < 1424424890 871448 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :also known as, er, the identity function. < 1424424968 788095 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott or int-e or anyone else ^^^ < 1424425021 376872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi cpressey < 1424425045 258471 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the non-Turing-complete version of brainfuck? < 1424425055 970623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I assume you aren't referring to one of the many awful BF derivatives) < 1424425080 467542 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :30 Kb should be enough for everyone < 1424425084 837976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1424425091 995392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an awful BF derivative that predates BF < 1424425093 555307 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, the version where you take the original implementation in C as god, and... yeah < 1424425107 868146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, writing off the end of an array is UB < 1424425115 155718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can imagine a C implementation that reacts by extending the array < 1424425130 628156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also increasing the size of an int so that it can continue to index the array indefinitely < 1424425140 282183 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, why not? < 1424425151 958267 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, pointer size < 1424425154 685236 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waves hand
< 1424425160 878486 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :increase that too < 1424425173 593974 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I guess you have to increase the size of a char < 1424425180 283102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then defining char_bit would be difficult < 1424425182 675296 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: tantamount to throwing much of C out the window, but, ok < 1424425205 456814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the world needs more C impls that don't act anything like C < 1424425241 329746 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :store the tape on a real tape and issue I/O commands by mapping a volatile variable to an I/O port < 1424425247 749995 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you're only limited by the size of your tape reel < 1424425270 703266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or by using the stdio FILE * API < 1424425275 854730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's even blessed by the standard < 1424425289 209971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can move around using relative seeks < 1424425310 343554 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, but I worry that it still might have some unfortunate verbiage in the spec that imposes a maximum somewhere < 1424425339 474271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm remembering from last time this subject came up < 1424425375 161661 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, on that other note, it seems most "reasonable" languages do admit a "dumb" compiler to Turing-machines in O(n) time < 1424425384 901998 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :dumb = non-optimizing, of course < 1424425399 11465 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a little more than O(n) if you don't accept that hash tables are O(1) < 1424425420 491853 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if cpressey ever noticed his underload interpreter in emmental
< 1424425438 254050 :dulla!~rikc@108-65-78-116.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :underload? < 1424425449 425995 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I must be going crazy, I swear I can hear your thoughts < 1424425452 319826 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1424425452 466167 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :dulla: both are esolangs < 1424425457 178416 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i haven't seen it yet < 1424425471 746780 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i made it around the time the wiki featured emmental < 1424425482 119937 :dulla!~rikc@108-65-78-116.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I guess my hint is to look at all the concurrency esols < 1424425488 240932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dulla: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload < 1424425491 370262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you haven't seen it, you should < 1424425494 636654 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the Big Five < 1424425511 88737 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you can prefix an interpreter with a sequence of states that initialises the tape with the source code, which would be really stupid but O(n), no extras. < 1424425516 690369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Befunge, Brainfuck, INTERCAL, Underload, Unlambda) < 1424425554 403299 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/emmental/ul.emm or slightly less evilly, the haskell generator http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/emmental/EmmUnl.hs < 1424425620 294104 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :dear lord < 1424425622 451960 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :very nice < 1424425651 876818 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It uses Emmental's metacircular evaluation principles to _turn_ the Emmental interpreter into an Underload one" -- exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for < 1424425754 503676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the Haskell generator uses lens < 1424425758 16612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you're calling it less evil? < 1424425840 34326 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was in fact the first haskell program where i used lens in earnest < 1424425850 240602 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, is there a way to get Firefox use syntax highlighting if it sees Content-Type: text/x-haskell ? < 1424425868 872161 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's less evil in so far as it is _plausible_ for humans to read < 1424425870 861813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it normally delegates to your editor, which will know how, IME < 1424425880 821234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote lens < 1424425915 467965 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have the "open in browser" plugin, so at least I can display the file in the browser rather than having to save it to disk) < 1424425918 810506 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: HackEgo didn't get back properly after Gregor restarted the server < 1424425926 190798 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote lens < 1424425926 337445 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb says: lens has got to be the only library with more contributors than people who know how it works < 1424425942 968959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: did you just call me "fizzie"? :-) < 1424425968 218797 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no < 1424425972 625249 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, aimake has more contributors than people who know how it works, but it's not technically a library < 1424425979 699453 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: he was alerting fizzie to a problem < 1424426104 756980 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: technically you'd only need to impl (), : and ^ to prove fancy-L-completeness < 1424426186 911454 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :if fancy-L is what I think it is, <3 this channel, doing all the computability dirty work that everyone else refuses to touch < 1424426215 735477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it means "it's possible to write at least one interpreter for a TC language in this program" < 1424426236 80909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may have been your definition? < 1424426242 910590 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i believe it was, yes < 1424426257 437243 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i am addressing fizzie as the person most likely to be able to fix it, although he seems frightfully evil < 1424426262 466032 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*idel < 1424426271 706427 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can't be worse than lens, surely < 1424426280 413929 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :worst brain typo this year so far, i think < 1424426378 495529 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google idel < 1424426378 922531 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://dibels.uoregon.edu/market/assessment/idel < 1424426465 893492 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: technically you'd only need to impl (), : and ^ to prove fancy-L-completeness <-- it was of course more fun to try to cram (almost) everything in < 1424426478 242917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the ():^ TCness proof use nested parens? < 1424426490 942196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, minimal-Underload might actually work quite well as a source language for TCness proofs < 1424426492 69592 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other way to open the text file in the browser is if you write "view-source:" before the URL; not all browsers will accept this though < 1424426510 159846 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hi zzo38 < 1424426520 177735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, I remember learning about that when I was in school and Geocities was really popular and I didn't know what CGI was yet < 1424426549 120692 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, do you like to ask too many questions/complaints to me please? < 1424426571 627936 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: definitely needs some nesting, although it should be limited by O(states*symbols) of a universal minsky machine < 1424426590 310135 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(FWIW, on my own webservers I tend to hack mime.types to produce text/plain for .hs files.) < 1424426609 990481 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you measure states and symbols for a minsky machine? < 1424426619 278981 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1424426626 518870 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess only states then < 1424426702 507000 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(Befunge, Brainfuck, INTERCAL, Underload, Unlambda)" is the big five? I haven't heared of that yet, but it sounds reasonable. < 1424426717 804960 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also you only need to add ~ to get a TM instead < 1424426718 575026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it was sort-of informally agreed here a while ago < 1424426730 371058 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :On my own computer I have put a .htaccess in /dnd/recording/ in order to make it set the MIME type of the TeX source files to text/plain too < 1424426743 327966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ~ is one of the hardest commands to impl, although I guess it's not much harder than : and might even be a little easier < 1424426777 208936 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, then I'll propose a category on the wiki < 1424426788 227401 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric : so you would consider the 2,3 machine to be sub-TC, then <-- iirc, it's not capable of halting, so no, I don't consider it TC < 1424426795 602748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: my version, it is < 1424426799 520032 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use a right-infinite tape < 1424426804 270554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :halting is falling off the left end < 1424426820 488940 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps one could use 2^k as the number of symbols of a Minsky machine with k counters. < 1424426822 651851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I'm considering simpler tape initializations that have more complex halt states < 1424426835 278011 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: beh, i almost want to count that as an extra symbol < 1424426846 127477 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's awkward. < 1424426849 994616 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :at any rate, you can't fairly compare it to a bi-infinite tape < 1424426853 737378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I have an explicit extra-symbol representation too < 1424426872 270409 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: fine, but then it's 2,4 (or 3,3 -- i can't remember) < 1424426878 443292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, the mathematicians who looked over this said that Turing Machines weren't well-defined enough that it mattered < 1424426887 243628 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :headdesk < 1424426895 407618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in fact, different papers are inconsistent on whether the tape's infinite both ways or just one way < 1424426896 673595 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the whole argument doesn't matter < 1424426907 38805 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :all we can say is "Sure is small!" Hyuk < 1424426909 191501 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this happens a lot during research < 1424426927 276839 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: by the way, thanks for the article you have recommended < 1424426927 579965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I discovered that one of my papers refers to a proof in another paper < 1424426937 699060 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: which one is that? < 1424426945 410675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the two papers are using different definitions, in a way that probably matters < 1424426949 872018 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bernstein, Multidigit multiplication for mathematicians < 1424426955 32929 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, it's nontrivial to prove that it doesn't matter < 1424426973 196240 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: interesting, I'm completely drawing a blank on that. you're sure it wasn't someone else? < 1424426985 146260 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that was me; you're welcome. < 1424427002 76631 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1424427037 461490 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and don't worry, I'm happy not to be the only one who mixes up people :) < 1424427064 545810 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: my :()^ gets awkward if you have more than 2 counters, anyway. (you'd need to move across the representation of a counter to get to the other side) < 1424427081 923529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you never need more than 2 counters < 1424427156 533248 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you never need more than 2 counters if you're satisifed with double-exponential slowdown < 1424427184 555593 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, it might be worth it still then < 1424427196 149072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the 2,3 machine proof is double-exponential, I think < 1424427201 418504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have got it down to single-exponential < 1424427208 62496 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm interested in this "System T" thing of Goedel's, which is apparently decidable but > PR. Know anything about it? < 1424427208 438473 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, if Game of Life was invented before Intercal, does that mean Intercal isn't really the first esolang? < 1424427209 996867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it might have been triple-exponential originally < 1424427211 514798 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course, you still have exponential for using minsky) < 1424427212 728702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even really remember < 1424427217 527171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: INTERCAL wasn't the first esolang < 1424427224 357214 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: not that i recall < 1424427237 748579 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages < 1424427249 298931 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, the _origianl_ 2,3 machine proof is something-exponential, but it's got a new proof that I think only has a polynomial slowdown < 1424427252 351933 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look that up < 1424427264 382787 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's plain counter machines where you can't avoid the slowdown < 1424427278 315817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: really? I would be very surprised at that < 1424427284 965172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a polynomial slowdown) < 1424427289 983399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on the properties of that machine < 1424427296 214267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you are aware that I wrote the original proof, right?) < 1424427306 395471 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what? < 1424427311 653616 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm a bit suspicious, mainly because if it really was, I'd think it would be more well-known, and maybe have a complexity class named after it, but. Never heard of it before yesterday. < 1424427312 785712 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, < 1424427321 296872 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm mixing it up with another small machine < 1424427325 307337 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cellular automaton < 1424427331 503009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rule 30? < 1424427333 752664 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1424427334 391280 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, 110 < 1424427338 424938 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1424427340 191128 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know how i'm going to get anyway work done if i'm sitting on this channel :) < 1424427345 214090 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :*any < 1424427346 100285 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rule 30's harder to prove but believed to be probably also TC < 1424427348 406052 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of those with 2 states and 3 neighbours on a line < 1424427357 928297 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know which < 1424427373 20284 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those are distinct from the Turing machines < 1424427392 282001 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, for counter machines, you clearly can't get below at least single exponential < 1424427409 110815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 2,3 construction is from sequential tag < 1424427413 200129 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I suspect that for a two-counter machine the double exponential is necessary < 1424427458 755009 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you used tag, then the down-to-polynomial construction for rule 110 might apply to yours too, iirc it's simply about proving _tag_systems_ not to need exponential overhead < 1424427506 439865 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what? < 1424427510 31617 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :by a more clever representation of a turing tape < 1424427532 324144 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but isn't it trivial that tag systems don't need exponential overhead if you can use enough symbols and rules? < 1424427558 340100 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: maybe, but someone got a paper out of applying it to rule 110 anyhow < 1424427696 86740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I used cyclic tag, which is proved TC by compiling from tag < 1424428026 332574 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1424428041 395040 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: assuming this is the same as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectica_interpretation#Induction i would _almost_ interpret that section as saying it is _not_ decidable. < 1424428095 187956 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on quick browsing i don't see anything in the article that says it _is_. < 1424428450 664156 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i assume the thing you've heard of is http://www.citeulike.org/user/cook/article/8904389 < 1424428577 526219 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ais523: http://www.bcri.ucc.ie/FILES/PUBS/BCRI_52.pdf < 1424428599 290439 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it also uses cyclic tag < 1424428603 944339 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, "P-complete" is a weird phrase < 1424428632 794207 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, usually you then use LOGSPACE-reductions < 1424428649 716041 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or sometimes even lower stuff < 1424428692 970634 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the part it changes is between the TM and the cyclic tag stuff, so it should apply to your case as well < 1424428706 512158 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the part the paper < 1424428752 800009 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :This channel has given me a great intuition and informal knowledge for my computability module, but almost none of the formalities < 1424428824 469210 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trick is to know that the formalities aren't really as precise as mathematicians would want them to be < 1424428845 552290 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: there's some nice books telling the formalities < 1424428846 531504 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1424428878 649888 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, I just received an almost completely irrelevant textbook! < 1424428942 124982 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm going on some very vague statements in Turner's "total fp" paper, plus this: http://home.utah.edu/~nahaj/logic/structures/systems/t.html which says "There is a decision procedure for T" < 1424428971 550945 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :"decision procedure" might not mean what I think/want it to mean, here < 1424428991 762417 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, that paper is what I've heared of, for it's linked from http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2070 < 1424429028 167620 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ic. i think we're definitely over my head. < 1424429053 366372 :MDream!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1424429083 932930 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Turner's paper also referred to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_recursive_functional which that wp article refers to. < 1424429110 152091 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think, once you allow values to be infinite... oh, such fun. < 1424429261 425613 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: (scroll up to where I give an example with "Person A" and "Person B" earlier this morning) < 1424429266 191638 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you missed it < 1424429294 735304 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure i read that but also that my brain is approaching breaking point right now. < 1424429356 449835 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1424429410 748966 :bluckbot!~k@162.243.245.92 QUIT :Quit: bluckbot < 1424429523 532451 :bluckbot!~k@162.243.245.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424429653 898596 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :my stubborn refusal to let things make sense to me is increasing the cognitive burden of the channel < 1424429709 469685 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd better not try to explain Feather then < 1424430101 947065 :skarn!skarn@unaffiliated/skarn QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1424430378 999329 :skarn!skarn@unaffiliated/skarn JOIN :#esoteric < 1424430915 735890 :bluckbot!~k@162.243.245.92 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424431024 233961 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan Uh-oh, I think my esowiki SSH key is only on the laptop and the fungot server, both of which are currently in the house-with-no-internet. < 1424431024 418049 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1424431050 113068 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you going to copy it onto a disk? < 1424431190 977286 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably put it onto this VPS system I'm ircing on, then I could access it from wherever. < 1424431419 452673 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1424431621 818579 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424432196 371540 :mbrcknl_!sid28171@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hcsdpjcymirqajzu JOIN :#esoteric < 1424432623 464542 :mbrcknl!sid28171@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qlvlpihodjyhzgkh QUIT :*.net *.split < 1424432659 273517 :mbrcknl_!sid28171@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hcsdpjcymirqajzu NICK :mbrcknl < 1424432772 244021 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424432807 811662 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1424432910 58695 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1424433106 638528 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Tanelle! < 1424433111 810699 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1424433117 829903 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1424433201 810975 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1424433324 75113 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are you? have you esölanged recently? boardgaming? < 1424433382 541033 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been trying to figure out if I can implement Eodermdrome by piggybacking on the implementation of a research language one my lecturers made < 1424433495 356657 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :However I don't really know either language < 1424433532 672965 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ō_Ō... woooah... < 1424433571 671905 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with Eodermdrone is how you choose an arbitrary injective homomorphism if there are multiple possible ones. < 1424433693 973843 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I get someone cleverer than me to look at http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.5541 and figure this out? < 1424433875 586323 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, the same way as in any ambiguous rewriting language, you pick one arbitrarily < 1424433927 482336 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: sure, but that could make it hard to debug programs < 1424433952 987257 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then it's easily possible that your program works well in this implementation, but not in other implementations that pick other choices < 1424433970 166907 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the choice part of a finite set? < 1424433972 859189 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that many esolangs make debugging particularly easy < 1424433985 123958 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: finite, yes < 1424434042 363195 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then can you score the arbitrary performance of each possibility, and deterministically go with the best? < 1424434075 938349 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: there's befunge, where tracing the execution is at least as interesting as running the program itself. < 1424434099 876885 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: um, by what measurement of performance? < 1424434137 290372 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: some arbitrary measurement >_>'... < 1424434153 915736 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION mumbles mumbles something about optimisation problems
< 1424434262 432312 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, if you write ambiguous substitutions then you'll end up with undefined behaviour, the solution is to make your substitutions unambiguous < 1424434670 369402 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424434869 363425 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1424434968 408908 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1424434981 710606 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: SHAPED CHICKEN < 1424435714 573883 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1424436075 602470 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424436262 324918 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424436323 466248 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1424436645 300871 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1424436645 485817 :SopaXT!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1424438152 908985 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1424438574 986653 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I forget if the total FP paper covers the fact that ackermann is actually primitive recursive if you have higher-order functions < 1424438577 909666 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is nice. < 1424438671 849976 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :My AI textbook arrived today and I am using it as a mousemat < 1424438692 292936 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a sense the dependently typed languages get a lot of their expressivity from the fact that you can do "fancy" recursion by returning functions or types, and by allowing you to structurally recurse over any structure you want (rather than just naturals on zero and successor) < 1424438715 343798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :without actually having a fundamentally more complicated criteria for what recursion is allowed < 1424438999 36601 :dulla!~rikc@108-65-78-116.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1424439181 510153 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it does mention that. what the heck complexity class does that correspond to, though? ackermann isn't contained in PR afaik < 1424439207 712943 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well: "The primitive recursive functions are among the number-theoretic functions, which are functions from the natural numbers (nonnegative integers) {0, 1, 2, ...} to the natural numbers." < 1424439231 547030 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trick is just to relax that return type criteria. (it already can't exactly be true, anyway, since ackermann sort of has more than one argument...? there's probably some better definition in The Literature.) < 1424439243 919251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, either that or the input type has to change, of course.) < 1424439256 355283 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it has a name; "higher-order primitive recursive" or something < 1424439271 692345 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :i consider the nat thing kind of incidental... exanoke has lists, for example; doesn't seem to change much < 1424439277 563521 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :all you need is some well-founded data < 1424439289 629583 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it isn't because adding functions gives you more in some sense < 1424439290 775024 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1424439296 521571 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually maybe you can do ack by going via some data-type? < 1424439304 350190 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and having two functions < 1424439314 799409 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i know there are rewrite systems by which ack can be proved to terminate < 1424439327 974434 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume there's some way to draw a correspondence between those systems and types < 1424439344 911508 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent types, esp < 1424439361 147144 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the main thing is that you can get a lot out by just being able to generate other kinds of inductive data through the induction principles, rather than just the same type < 1424439367 609854 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then recurse on those themselves < 1424439374 112327 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmmaybe < 1424439432 739023 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've ever seen a "reasonable" function you can't define in Coq or Agda directly due to termination checking (even if it's really awkward to define) that isn't "interpretation-y stuff" (which I expect to be that way). < 1424439433 962993 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :til eodermdrome is an oilipoian thing. and that eodermdrome the esolang is a lot like thue, except on graphs, and it has a nicer approach to input imo < 1424439438 977103 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it goes a long way < 1424439493 158011 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the fun part is that eodermdrone would actually be easy to program if you had an unlimited number of letters. the programs might not be efficient of course, but easy to write. < 1424439511 745442 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes. in the "real" world, most people would consider NEXP too inefficient to be practical anyway. and PR >= NEXP. the problem is that some functions are awkward or inefficient when written in PR style < 1424439512 528574 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the way it is, it's not even turing complete, because there are only finitely many valid eodermdrone programs < 1424439528 411432 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the limitation that you have only 26 letters is very severe < 1424439553 86338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "real" world of proving things :) < 1424439575 170363 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well that would let you make bigger graphs, but... you can chain smaller graph rewrites into a larger one. but yes i can see how that would be a pita < 1424439588 921209 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that is a pita < 1424439593 175409 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, you can write things a lot nicer than the usual awkward mathematical primitive recursion in dependent type theory, but it can still get ugly. < 1424439635 143279 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternately, 26 nodes would be enough if we had more than one type of edge distinguished, possibly even directed < 1424439651 327605 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, with numbers written between the letters < 1424439672 192817 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it would be almost as easy to use as an ordinary pointer machine < 1424439672 796712 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially when you need to go to the level of well-founded recursion (basically defining your own "smaller than" relation and proving that you can recurse a data type in a way that always gets smaller -- this lets you do things like recurse on (x/2) on naturals, rather than just (x-1). you can define it all in type theory though, no need to extend its notion of recursion, it's just fun with induction pr < 1424439678 293238 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: um... i think it's TC actually < 1424439678 825826 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :inciples and vaguely higher-order stuff) < 1424439698 438403 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you do realize the letters only describe how the graph is formed, right? < 1424439714 791299 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no it's not, because there's less than about 2**(2**(26**2)) valid programs (give or take a few < 1424439717 750837 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1424439741 166853 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that's some practical limitation < 1424439752 74376 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that's not how i understood it, but i could be wrong. maybe ais523 can shed light on it < 1424439760 399726 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :my new esolang: brainfuck but you only get, like, G_64 tape cells < 1424439768 263435 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: very original < 1424439850 668964 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, are the cells bounded at TREE(3)? < 1424439872 408478 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :TREE(7) just to be sure < 1424439899 114488 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ok, i see what you're referring to -- I think this puts it in fancy-L territory -- you can't write arbitrary programs in it but you can write an interpreter for a TC language in it < 1424439980 160455 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Is it the Russell & Norvig one, or something else? < 1424439993 456555 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are 6906900 eodermdromes (the oulipo kind) if I'm not mistaken. which is cool, because that number looks a little like an eoderdrome itself (but it isn't.) < 1424439999 174353 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah, Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach < 1424440005 584439 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good old AIMA. < 1424440013 367441 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :*over the roman alphabet < 1424440039 218059 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Okay, the third edition isn't all that old.) < 1424440048 850537 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this is 4th Ed < 1424440058 41170 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no < 1424440059 888527 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :I miscounted < 1424440087 721539 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :People here keep numbering floors wrong. < 1424440096 393731 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather, was thinking about the computation theory textbook I plan to order soon < 1424440101 187290 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The whole ground floor / first floor thing.) < 1424440106 847286 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, are they forgetting that G is a natural number < 1424440130 971863 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back in Finland we had 1 at street level, and so on. < 1424440165 660000 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where are you now? < 1424440169 484712 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In London. < 1424440175 516001 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Long term? < 1424440191 461714 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can tell. < 1424440203 546637 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :My sympathies. < 1424440221 719410 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It hasn't been all that bad. < 1424440225 837690 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@65-183-137-193-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424440433 843915 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although if you do ever head further north, give me a bell < 1424440633 366706 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was this talk (sometime last year) about meeting up in... Birmingham? < 1424440779 794851 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Birmingham is indeed further north than London < 1424440791 421375 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although considerably further south than anywhere in the UK I've lived < 1424440822 404172 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1424440860 882087 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, I think that was mentioned < 1424440865 498129 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing was planned, though < 1424441027 85038 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I think it's more like 34534500 because there are 5 possible starting positions < 1424441038 196849 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meeting in Brum, what a bizarre yet intriguing idea < 1424441131 796760 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no wait, there are also 5 possible rotations, they should be captured by the permutation right? i keep forgetting i don't like combinatorics) < 1424441194 854794 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the thing is, I *am* burned out, but can't retire yet < 1424441212 705086 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :deciding to leave irc open during the day will be my downfall < 1424441260 863057 :supay!sid47179@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fjrdlqhybhmwgiuw QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1424441268 43281 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you still doing, uh, web stuff < 1424441327 779270 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, yes < 1424441345 820231 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, no, i am changing the world!!!1! < 1424441360 461244 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be a better place after our gamble succeeds < 1424441385 310733 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc startup-babble < 1424441458 865267 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-snigollvmaoraxug QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1424441509 389218 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am now at 6:32 mark of a ten hour video < 1424441664 350557 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://snag.gy/Fd1Sh.jpg whoops, actually 11hours < 1424441902 478348 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about explicit control of evaluation. < 1424441932 978260 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose you have two separate syntax elements: < 1424441990 534610 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :level 0 statements define, in a declarative style, the values to compute < 1424442041 470610 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :level 1 statements would then in an imperative style, tell the program what order to reduce them in < 1424442046 990516 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~pbl/cbpv.html < 1424442072 131969 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, that's a useless page < 1424442081 869909 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's sort of what call-by-push-value is except not really. < 1424442088 229675 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does the explicit evaluation control thing. < 1424442192 38046 :supay!sid47179@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ccgpdlnquywmdiaq JOIN :#esoteric < 1424442376 994038 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :studentt distribution? what is this madness < 1424442625 799787 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, so what I am struggling to define is a good syntax for referring to a node in a evaluation tree. < 1424442769 577822 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what an evaluation tree is, but: 1.1.2.1 < 1424442879 436696 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could work. An evaluation tree would be a tree representing a set of values whihc depend on values in their children. < 1424443244 198790 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My idea is to isolate state changes to one level, and the entirety of math to zero level. < 1424443447 83116 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vgxqatoiypndbreh JOIN :#esoteric < 1424443982 1722 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell shachaf I don't understand the question < 1424443982 148002 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1424444231 550573 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1424444661 827271 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1424445620 282099 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1424445711 989280 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I'll also be going to Oban at some point, but just for touristy things. < 1424446659 388803 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424446859 989177 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: btw, did you see my "Person A", "Person B" example from this morning. apparently it was too much for oerjan (who, in fairness, had just tried to tackle Goedel's System T) < 1424446939 492273 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila JOIN :#esoteric < 1424447024 300778 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424447063 815288 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it the brainfuck thing < 1424447081 917372 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain filed it under the same category as "here's my self-interpreter: eval" and "my /bin/cat quine" < 1424447155 569711 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1424447236 262975 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1424447251 489980 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes it was probably that thing, it was "here is a total function which maps any program to its infinite execution trace; its infinite execution trace is represented as a finite object like a lazy list; this finite object is the original program" making it the identity function < 1424447285 188401 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :good day cpressey < 1424447291 827362 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello vanila < 1424447364 169333 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be honest the codata stuff seems to me like you're syaing.. "here's a game of life interprete" and then providing a function that computes n steps of game of life < 1424447407 934382 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then saying "and you can call it as many times as you like" < 1424447422 290920 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is fine, programming-wise < 1424447429 128953 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :computability-wise, it's really not useful < 1424447455 982214 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/conor.mcbride/pub/Totality.pdf < 1424447475 984747 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :totality is a red herring imo (today). in fact, halting is a red herring too! (cf. Rice's theorem) < 1424447485 649129 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll rant more in a sec < 1424447503 800372 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: that's even exactly what it is if you use like Stream < 1424447513 906180 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since life : Board -> Stream Board is exactly life : Board -> Nat -> Board < 1424447527 413350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*use, like, Stream < 1424447528 428404 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nod
< 1424447542 447147 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereby exactly I mean... not in any language that currently exists. but the language everyone is thinking in, anyway < 1424447543 775802 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: that would not be useful to someone unless they learn how to call said function < 1424447549 857944 :kapil___!uid36151@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vuqlqarnsybmcfpx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1424447577 32106 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :A function /= a fully functional program < 1424447667 930695 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't a standardized encoding for conway gol initial states. < 1424447865 703477 :supay!sid47179@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ccgpdlnquywmdiaq QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424447865 890327 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vgxqatoiypndbreh QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424447866 39044 :ocharles_!sid30093@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xwogcmphclwclhky QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424448059 862023 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... technically, you could extract a primitive command-line interface from a function's argument types and numbers < 1424448178 291411 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :game of life interpreters could stop once a stable state has been achieved < 1424448181 397194 :SopaXT!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1424448185 728332 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :or once a repeating state has been achieved < 1424448221 889329 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only if every type is given a standard bijection < 1424448225 756817 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :to stings < 1424448226 213582 :variable!root@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero < 1424448244 673877 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: or just have the input mark a particular cell, and make the program stop when that cell is alive < 1424448249 223833 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, I think determining if a state is repeating is uncomputable < 1424448282 475970 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a crazy game of life program at http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1008395 < 1424448338 912891 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: but detectable < 1424448361 471250 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :undecidable is also semi-decidable. glass half full, and all that < 1424448380 580998 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, hmm... < 1424448400 186163 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I think for a finite initial state, it is actually computable, thinking about it < 1424448404 416455 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION forgot what he was going to rant about
< 1424448406 296443 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of gliders, most states never repeat < 1424448406 862560 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as you know the time < 1424448483 169722 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the initial state < 1424448508 274486 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it can only expand at a maximum of 1 cell per tick in any direction, right? < 1424448519 355395 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes < 1424448588 588343 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/installation/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_Game_of_Life fwiw < 1424448656 974285 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's why it's better to have an end marker cell or something similar rather than watching for repeating states < 1424448661 448359 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :there might be any number of conditions under which you want to consider a gol config "halted", also fwiw < 1424448666 717428 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just stop the program when the cell (0,0) is live < 1424448672 660949 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :which brings me back to Rice's theorem < 1424448810 138999 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :might as well just define all turing machines as not being able to halt, and instead have a "scream state" which, if they ever enter it, they scream, and call it the Screaming Problem < 1424448864 92078 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I have an infinite stream of codata representing the execution trace of a TM, ... that still doesn't help me tell if screams or not < 1424448890 589319 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm very wary of Turner starting out with "it's total, which means it terminates" to "it's total, and you get infinite streams" < 1424448907 265918 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :*switching to < 1424448944 579255 :SopaXT!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1424448955 64120 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides! even if we had the most kick-ass language that let me prove all the properties I wanted about my program, it still wouldn't help! < 1424448989 652004 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :because who writes to a spec, anyway? half of all software is written, not to a spec, but to a fuzzy notion of what will make the company money while not pissing off the users *too* badly < 1424449013 156655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're definitely burnt out hehe < 1424449034 729123 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those who do write to a spec -- their spec is like a gigantic legal document. maybe, if they're lucky, they've checked it for consistency < 1424449069 42427 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they probably still don't know if it captures the requirements < 1424449085 642116 :not^v!~notnot^v@198.109.114.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424449123 559906 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will change tomorrow anyway < 1424449152 285215 :spiette!~spiette@2607:fad8:4:6:a288:b4ff:fe60:a3b0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424449170 413563 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Or the coders interpret the spec differently then the customers < 1424449220 377749 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424449346 221503 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I thought by 'heart bar' you meant a line of hearts, not a heart with a red bar beside it!!" < 1424449455 51811 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a steel bar impaling a human heart. < 1424449534 274784 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone here write their own OS? < 1424449559 755166 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vanila: I wrote part of one for a course... < 1424449579 23346 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :nic < 1424449580 422717 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1424449587 679421 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you do it? < 1424449692 619806 :not^v!~notnot^v@198.109.114.66 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1424449708 863601 :ocharles_!sid30093@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-udsvatpuwiflxvcd JOIN :#esoteric < 1424449711 798041 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you start with a system, then you teach it to operate < 1424449722 608718 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually -- it's mostly about interrupts. < 1424449735 130301 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xdcfxnyhokjxwxpk JOIN :#esoteric < 1424449830 264556 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424449904 738674 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The overall structure was, some machine-specific stuff in assembler, followed by setting up the interrupt vector and resources for syscalls, then set up the file system (we didn't have to write the hard disk driver ourselves thank god) and then basically you pass control to a userland program which is the command interpreter. < 1424449926 326123 :spiette!~spiette@2607:fad8:4:6:a288:b4ff:fe60:a3b0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1424449950 663045 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Overall the project was a half-assed version of UNIX. < 1424449998 531110 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cool! < 1424450018 821944 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill have to pay special attention to interrupts < 1424450205 546532 :supay!sid47179@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sokqvjzqxwavfmeg JOIN :#esoteric < 1424450502 252637 :not^v!~notnot^v@198.109.114.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424450628 272058 :spiette!~spiette@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe66:77e5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424451207 280523 :not^v!~notnot^v@198.109.114.66 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1424451227 400591 :not^v!~notnot^v@198.109.114.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424451344 139477 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So unicode might get color modifiers for face characters, for the sake of not being racist, but that didn't stop them from putting in 👱 👲 👳 . < 1424451412 521751 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :overlapping boxes containing hexadecimal digits are very racist indeed < 1424451465 458533 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode 👱👲👳 < 1424451738 845035 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect, whatever that was supposed to do, it didn't work < 1424451750 500779 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps the bot is just really, really lagged < 1424451765 743827 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Anyway those characters are "PERSON WITH BLONDE HAIR" "MAN WITH GUA PI MAO" and "MAN WITH TURBAN" respectively. < 1424451800 119360 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, Japanese stereotypes of Europeans, Chinese and Indians. < 1424451801 190242 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. those sounds like emoji imports < 1424451806 716551 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound* < 1424451807 572984 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1424451833 679812 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate unicode so much!!!!!!!! < 1424451844 410346 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :127 characters is already far too many < 1424451850 19178 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :emoji which github supports. i always wondered why I'd ever need to pur a man with a gua pi mao in a pull request, though < 1424451860 433484 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa PRIVMSG #esoteric :*put < 1424451868 34238 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :👯 < 1424451939 732377 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Woman with bunny ears" because the Playboy brand must last for all the ages < 1424452027 681923 :not^v!~notnot^v@198.109.114.66 QUIT :Quit: http://i.imgur.com/Akc6r.gif < 1424452459 474560 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: do you want 60 characters, in two planes of 30 characters you can switch among with shifts? < 1424452572 795529 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know what that is sorry < 1424452612 988854 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want ride of everything from 01-1F in ascii (except newline) < 1424452614 977625 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :rid* < 1424452693 508971 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about tab? < 1424453394 604309 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424453632 240873 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1424453635 66931 :SopaXT!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424454335 244638 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1424455345 360482 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91-rdmsoft [XULRunner 32.0.3/20140923175406] < 1424455374 489631 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1424456254 875632 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1424457004 29554 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xdcfxnyhokjxwxpk QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1424457110 507282 :cpressey!~cpressey@35.87.2.81.in-addr.arpa QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1424457642 215238 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1424460708 276975 :arjanb!8259ab0c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.89.171.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424462178 801151 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-19-238.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1424462947 185299 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1424463150 443736 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424463262 288282 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Client Quit < 1424463722 854054 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1424463770 301138 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1424463792 604437 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1424463847 887842 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1424463972 848708 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1424464151 603841 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424464272 602973 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424465092 948930 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@65-183-137-193-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1424465304 237898 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tjvqglpwlcoysiap JOIN :#esoteric < 1424465999 188664 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, I'm this close to flooding the nuiverse with magma. < 1424466005 583495 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*universe < 1424466055 391643 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :one level at a time, I'll flood it with water and magma, thus converting everything to obsidian < 1424466068 736662 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: the whole universe, or just the surface of the planet? < 1424466079 431470 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not so easy to flood a whole universe with magma < 1424466112 356031 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I have a pump stack that can bring magma or water to the highest level. < 1424466141 229662 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to build a second one for the other fluid < 1424466194 659595 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: is this Dwarf Fortress or Minecraft? < 1424466204 159124 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dwarf Frotress < 1424466208 336140 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortress < 1424466227 271722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424466269 830647 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once I make it self powered, I'll lock one dwarf into my life support chamber and wait a few days. < 1424466317 573115 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for how long can the dwarf survive in that chamber? < 1424466332 177230 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what are the walls for the chamber made of? < 1424466404 196351 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The walls are natural obsidian except the entrance which is a long tunnel which I'll obsidianify as the first step. The dwarf would have to tunnel his way out. < 1424466717 183304 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure it will flood the whole map, but if I switch on a waterfall of each substance at the same time, I assume it will come close. < 1424466859 21377 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only other guess I have as to the effect, is that a wall of obsidian will separate a vast ocean of magma from a similar ocean of water. < 1424466961 763381 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either way it will be epic < 1424466992 447903 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :will you be able to find out which happens? < 1424467036 80911 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eventually, when the second pumptower is complete. < 1424467084 129733 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :First I have to modify the first one to integrate its power. < 1424467170 2213 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: but isn't there fog of war in that game? < 1424467253 40540 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is clouds, but above ground I can see everything. < 1424467261 897590 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1424467269 82436 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how large is the map? < 1424467308 882238 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's something like 128 by 128 tiles < 1424467314 272220 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't counted < 1424467317 119715 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? only? < 1424467319 157801 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems small < 1424467322 306802 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1424467328 14133 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 NICK :TieSoul_ < 1424467334 620990 :TieSoul_!~quassel@86.89.119.147 NICK :TieSoul < 1424467340 431573 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :each tile is the size of a dwarf < 1424467448 214134 :Tritonio_!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1424467453 183307 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like it is 48*4 x 48*4 < 1424467506 487306 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :192x192? still very small < 1424467574 171017 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bigger it is the begger the lag < 1424467616 833241 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1424467822 733444 :Tritonio_!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c NICK :Tritonio < 1424468175 425115 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: yeah < 1424468208 50018 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how good is the support chamber? how long can the lone dwarf live in it? < 1424468229 25078 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or will you then rebuild civilization starting from that chamber? < 1424468245 43938 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1424468368 833672 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *think* practically indefinitely. < 1424468376 861928 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1424468397 239621 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that chamber have to contain for that? < 1424468407 694115 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It contains a small farm, and a still. < 1424468470 438165 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1424468489 819544 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-19-238.access.telenet.be QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424468550 144729 :R40UL!~R40UL@178-119-102-102.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1424468567 872071 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And i whenI get around to using it, I'll dump everything usable in the fort into the chamber < 1424468753 440006 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... won't both of the fluids just flow off the edge. < 1424468772 240018 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have to meet before they do < 1424468945 403627 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, so < 1424468965 159758 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need like 100 enormous iron corkscrews < 1424468985 634164 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1424469032 569480 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :100? why so many? < 1424469033 340287 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1424469045 895638 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To reach to the top of the map < 1424469095 208560 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to build a tower almost 100 levels high (easy with obsidian blocks) and then build 100 magma-proof pumps < 1424469147 383663 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1424469183 85741 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll need 100 confused scrolls of enchant weapon to magma-proof that many pumps < 1424469282 198499 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For unexplained reasons, ordinary iron is magma-proof < 1424469321 87814 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1424469417 76581 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: probably because DF magma is of only 1500 K or colder temperature < 1424469433 539740 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the iron is old low tech one with a high melting point < 1424469442 102576 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not fancy steel < 1424469849 266556 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1424470239 268176 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1424470436 842275 :aretecode!~aretecode@50.23.131.206-static.reverse.softlayer.com QUIT :Quit: Toodaloo < 1424470724 671281 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424470906 27189 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424471388 873006 :aretecode!~aretecode@50.23.131.206-static.reverse.softlayer.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1424471626 653488 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The method of a self-powering water pump is due to escher, of course. < 1424471739 146053 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :See we pump the water up, where it falls and becomes water pressure for a waterwheel. < 1424471757 662018 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which then powers the pumps. < 1424473160 405740 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424473528 521699 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424473774 601149 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424473992 601755 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1424474113 594397 :cpressey!~cpressey@109.144.175.203 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424474771 93394 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1424474848 881101 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1424474959 884760 :cpressey!~cpressey@109.144.175.203 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's entirely possible that there's no complexity class corresponding to the primitive recursive functionals simply because no one gives a crap. < 1424474971 15299 :cpressey!~cpressey@109.144.175.203 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tarski was a speed freak. < 1424474975 799237 :cpressey!~cpressey@109.144.175.203 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably just give up. < 1424474978 397947 :cpressey!~cpressey@109.144.175.203 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night. < 1424474979 867455 :cpressey!~cpressey@109.144.175.203 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1424474991 223244 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye. < 1424475382 394388 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1424475480 921861 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you people know haskell pretty well: is there something that is purely functional, can store things (like lists do) and support O(1) concatenation? I was thinking about something like a double linked list, but i am quite unsure < 1424475492 314326 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424475493 403946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :difference lists < 1424475503 385806 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you pay the O(1) cost in observation, though) < 1424475503 955303 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :-v < 1424475507 914763 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[a] -> [a] < 1424475512 215308 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like \xs -> "foo" ++ xs < 1424475518 852727 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :append is composition < 1424475523 821673 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1424475552 749585 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1424475585 816422 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't ++ O(n) with n being the length of the first list? < 1424475592 374497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only use that for literals. < 1424475598 670744 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can write \xs -> 'f':'o':'o':xs if you want < 1424475606 219599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that if you have dlists f and g you can append with (f . g) < 1424475625 761701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let foo xs = 'f':'o':'o':xs; bar xs = 'b':'a':'r':xs in (foo . bar) [] < 1424475626 913952 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : "foobar" < 1424475638 561051 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Show class uses this trick as ShowS (specialised to Strings only) < 1424475643 501389 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1424475644 732134 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :to avoid exponential build-up doing lots of appends < 1424475657 618201 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty clever < 1424475685 413529 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :searching through it works like always, right? < 1424475723 821529 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only observe it by passing a list to it < 1424475729 244351 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you pay all the append costs then < 1424475735 557233 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's much better than ((xs ++ ys) ++ zs) type stuff < 1424475746 873699 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's good for doing lots of appends and then observing the result once < 1424475771 324133 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm actually okay with that < 1424475779 240853 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1424475827 173726 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1424475829 699540 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages- < 1424475829 845889 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie said 12h 26m 45s ago: Uh-oh, I think my esowiki SSH key is only on the laptop and the fungot server, both of which are currently in the house-with-no-internet. < 1424475837 675801 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell fizzie fiendish < 1424475837 822518 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1424476024 825839 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :To the finder of this bottle: I'm a fungot trapped in a house with no internet | ZFC is a ChuChu rocket. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ < 1424476177 613923 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: can you tell HackEgo to join the channel? it's on freenode but not here < 1424476201 307728 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1424476204 552485 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: does this do the clever way of concatenation? i.e. right associative? < 1424476291 987814 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it has to, if i don't ignore something obvious < 1424476634 465856 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: did you point out to cpressey that you can do goodstein sequence in system F, and ackermann is much simpler than that. < 1424476666 260900 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(someone on this channel did that after we discussed that it should be possible) < 1424476672 602760 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: yes; oerjan: no < 1424476697 945796 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: in particular (f . g) . h and f . (g . h) both do right-associative appends. < 1424476731 262592 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that the answer to "what complexity class does that correspond to" is something at most System F / second order logic < 1424476760 66248 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: you can use Endo [a], that comes with the right Monoid instance I think < 1424476778 309926 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: mind explaining? < 1424476783 983993 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or there's, like, http://hackage.haskell.org/package/dlist < 1424476786 523378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: from Data.Monoid < 1424476787 800168 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(those are equivalent in some sense iirc from the discussion) < 1424476790 937332 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Endo a is a wrapper for (a -> a) < 1424476795 827462 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it's not like Ursala, where «(f)(g)(h)» means (f g) h and «(f) (g) (h)» means f (g h) < 1424476798 675906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has a Monoid instance that does composition and an mempty that's id