< 1423094726 302194 :Warrigal!~tswett@192.241.237.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423094845 308330 :tswett!~tswett@c-98-243-16-185.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1423094859 59696 :Warrigal!~tswett@192.241.237.138 NICK :tswett < 1423094879 831736 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :removing errors by adding one ghc extension at a time... < 1423094887 777174 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1423094938 403051 :shikhin_!~shikhin@120.59.228.46 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423094939 613401 :shikhin_!~shikhin@120.59.228.46 QUIT :Changing host < 1423094939 802630 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1423095029 492484 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: i'm trying to show that current ghc (well, 7.8.3) _can_ express the types necessary to implement the new kind-aware Typeable without a builtin solver. but it needs a _lot_ of extensions. < 1423095039 833379 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423095083 106570 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell®jan. < 1423095108 810530 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah now it accepts everything except the main function < 1423095123 876942 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1423095126 33044 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't want to change that because this is supposed to be backwards-compatible :( < 1423095171 10168 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i haven't defined a Kindable instance for () < 1423095264 902363 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it compiled, but it thinks main isn't in scope < 1423095295 3870 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-062-103-186.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Is there any problem about () being the name of both a value and a type? < 1423095319 676592 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in normal haskell, no. < 1423095348 861687 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is with DataKinds, so in theory you would add a ' in front of the value one when promoting it to a type. < 1423095361 593797 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm using the kind so that's not necessary. < 1423095369 69659 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-062-103-186.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1423095421 326131 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, i forgot to save the file after i uncommented main again :P < 1423095432 433164 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay it works! < 1423095539 316270 :spiette!~spiette@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe66:77e5 QUIT :Quit: :qa! < 1423095551 273664 :spiette!~spiette@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe66:77e5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423095606 518690 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://oerjan.nvg.org/haskell/TypeableDesign/ < 1423095683 30075 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latest epiphany that made this possible is that you can have a type family as a superclass < 1423095784 153257 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1423095825 284716 :spiette!~spiette@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe66:77e5 QUIT :Client Quit < 1423096175 637399 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet TOPIC #esoteric :What is the land-speed velocity of a migrating fungot? | acking ubbles and urting arriers | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ < 1423096280 383975 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafellot. urting? < 1423096302 745822 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.89 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ursting? < 1423096355 234763 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423096356 833376 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :alk o he and. < 1423096535 953587 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AndoDaan: ursting as asy, ut 'm aving rouble ith urting. < 1423096544 278014 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: eah ight, s f. < 1423096599 551477 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.89 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ou aving iggle, ate? < 1423096755 85449 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elp, 'm ompletely ost ere. < 1423096799 81631 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I s l y g a n s f l! < 1423096807 465638 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :H y g. T a o m. < 1423096820 809936 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :O c, j t f l o e w d p e i t r t s. < 1423096842 37562 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I m, I g t f l c s a a m o s w y w t r t s l. < 1423096850 105980 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! < 1423096874 231283 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ou re ll vil < 1423096892 504138 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :erjan: ot y ault. our win tarted t. < 1423096903 439415 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :h. < 1423096963 57772 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :h. < 1423097090 166293 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :here goes < 1423097112 455557 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should actually join #ghc < 1423097128 175166 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have plugged a few stealth diæreses in all that unusual discussion... < 1423097146 579243 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin NICK :copumpkin < 1423097158 103745 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just claim they were all in the censored letters hth < 1423097243 833846 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's where'd've put them. very discreet, elegant in their placement. not unlike a zen garden ambush. < 1423097287 150547 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like plants vs. zombies? < 1423097301 39136 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hasn't actually played that, but has heard good things
< 1423097545 375738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: type family as a superclass @_@ < 1423097589 240146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: btw, wasn't implicit Typeable for all types meant to be part of the Typeable redo to start with? < 1423097592 226906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like that didn't happen? < 1423097605 759909 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno < 1423097667 513760 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zen zombies. zenbies. < 1423097710 344373 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well i started thinking, if you want to deduce that subparts of kinds are kinds, you need to make that fact a superclass if ghc's inference is to comprehend it properly. but the problem is, different kinds have different number of subparts, so i couldn't put a fixed number of them as superclasses. then i realized the obvious... < 1423097736 886706 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*representable kinds < 1423097750 392207 :lurklurklurk!~kvirc@c-50-160-151-149.hsd1.ga.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423097753 356691 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Kindable kinds < 1423097760 93630 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome lurklurklurk < 1423097776 946745 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​09lurklurklurk: 02Welcome 06to 13the 04international 07hub 08for 09esoteric 02programming 06language 13design 04and 07deployment! 08For 09more 02information, 06check 13out 04our 07wiki: 08. 09(For 02the 06other 13kind 04of 07esoterica, 08try 09#esoteric 02on 06irc.dal.net.) < 1423097792 726736 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hacking Hubbles and hurting harriers. < 1423097798 752533 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may lurk, but you won't get slower than HackEgo < 1423097807 723043 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's a proper noun. < 1423097812 841113 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hacking Hubbles and hurting Harriers. < 1423097851 396680 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 TOPIC #esoteric :What is the land-speed velocity of a migrating fungot? | acking ubbles and urting arriers | ZFC is a Chu space. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ < 1423097861 633856 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "comprehend it properly", i mean comprehend it without you needing to repeat it at every usage site. < 1423097861 834001 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just felt like announcing to the world that ZFC is a Chu space. < 1423097882 121145 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1423097895 935506 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because everything is, right?) < 1423097904 44962 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(same with category theory) < 1423097909 368451 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Tanelle. have you invented that? < 1423097912 525955 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07StackStacks14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41842&oldid=40793 5* 03Oj742 5* (-5) 10/* Instructions */ Corrected stack effect diagrams < 1423097914 853691 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I suppose you could say that everything is a Chu space. < 1423097922 737627 :lurklurklurk!~kvirc@c-50-160-151-149.hsd1.ga.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1423097924 994224 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But ZFC is a Chu space in a particular meaningful way. < 1423097927 637105 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily, I did, but then I forgot < 1423097938 629656 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :lurklurklurk, you seem to not be lurking particularly well < 1423097942 35284 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lurklurklurk: hi! < 1423097947 449603 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define the points as being the models of ZFC, and the states as being the statements in the language of ZFC. < 1423097962 514809 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then the r function is the truth function. 1 if the statement is true in the model, 0 if it's not. < 1423098004 300664 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every theory of a similar sort is a Chu space in the same way. < 1423098049 481536 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds related to gödel's second completeness theorem < 1423098063 203286 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then a morphism from a theory A to a theory B consists of a mapping of models of A to models of B, and a mapping of statements of B to statements of A, where the two mappings are compatible. < 1423098120 885351 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Given a model m of A and a statement s in B, the image of s is true in m if and only if s is true in the image of m.) < 1423098139 399242 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty sure G&owithanumlaut;del only had one completeness theorem. < 1423098362 680985 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, he started working on another, but he didn't finish. < 1423098373 542517 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1423098479 222162 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second incompleteness theorem, for ZFC: if the statement "ZFC has a model" is true in every model of ZFC, then there exist no models of ZFC. < 1423098831 614092 :lurklurklurk!~kvirc@c-50-160-151-149.hsd1.ga.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/ < 1423098886 622071 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: does this handle datakinds < 1423098897 726498 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't possibly, right? < 1423098899 759050 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :automatically, I mean < 1423098957 666294 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I think this little fact generalizes to other types of theories without insanely much trouble. < 1423098962 889499 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, consider the calculus of constructions. < 1423099045 897998 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Points are models of the calculus of constructions. States are terms in the calculus of constructions. Then the r function is what value a term denotes in a model. < 1423099114 238871 :arjanb!8259ad64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.89.173.100 QUIT :Quit: bbl < 1423099712 433900 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1423099988 418605 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: um nothing about it is automatic, but it's just a matter of making deriving (Typeable) also derive the corresponding Kindable instance for the datakind. i have [] and () as examples in the file. < 1423099992 825752 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1423100329 286224 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So certain theories seem to have "free models". < 1423100361 766297 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, consider this theory: < 1423100405 185937 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There exists an object x. For all objects x, there exists an object y. < 1423100427 562242 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The free model of that theory is the natural numbers. < 1423100525 792648 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this is a better way of stating that theory. There exists an object 0. For all objects x, there exists an object S(x). < 1423100598 597876 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, that is consistent with the natural numbers < 1423100609 966154 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. The natural numbers are a model of that theory. < 1423100630 835768 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any set, along with a point in that set and a function from the set to itself, is a model of that theory. < 1423100637 725732 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the natural numbers are the free model. < 1423100645 141737 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my idea of a "free model" might be the same thing as a term model. < 1423100648 257206 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the set {{}} a model? < 1423100695 854649 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1423100703 10095 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. 0 = {}, and S({}) = {}. < 1423100747 601697 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's also a free algebra < 1423100762 750606 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, the natural numbers with the operation S < 1423100795 658337 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. An algebra is pretty much a type of model, right? < 1423100803 440192 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1423100817 386117 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An algebra is the same thing as a model, a type-of-algebra is the same thing as a theory. < 1423100821 352953 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :More or less. < 1423100850 967540 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although this type-of-algebra is a variety. < 1423100915 875494 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, with no equations, even < 1423100948 360685 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(does that mean it's a free variety?) < 1423101071 800570 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, categories aren't a type-of-algebra, right? Categories are two-sorted, and one of the sorts is parameterized by the other. < 1423101105 97675 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can ignore the objects and use the identity morphisms instead < 1423101127 161866 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :however the fact composition isn't always defined may be a bigger problem < 1423101200 464539 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, ooh. Lemme see if I understand the proof of the model existence theorem. < 1423101219 39241 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose we have a consistent theory in first-order logic. < 1423101250 701177 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given a statement, there are three possibilities: the theory entails that it's true, the theory entails that it's false, or the statement is independent of the theory. < 1423101278 769001 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So look through all statements that exist. Whenever you find a statement that's independent of the theory, just arbitrarily decide whether it's true or false. < 1423101301 136412 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you have an assignment of a truth value to every possible statement. < 1423101309 188765 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um it needs to be independent of the theory and the statements you've already decided < 1423101317 348793 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1423101360 749936 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then... I don't know if you can go from this assignment of a truth value to every statement to a model. < 1423101464 551126 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think for every existence theorem that you've decided to be true, you need to choose a witness for it < 1423101474 844165 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*existence statement < 1423101498 52520 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, we need to have witnesses. < 1423101506 355645 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and then you get to decide statements involving that witness as a free variable < 1423101617 347568 :PinealGl1ndOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1423101681 553196 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you probably use zorn's lemma to show you've got a maximal element where everything is decided and everything has witnesses < 1423101704 951546 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boy. < 1423101713 159924 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(element of the set of partial assignments) < 1423101759 816706 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe you don't actually need choice, i don't know this < 1423102047 155918 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the set of all statements is countable. < 1423102084 999183 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can just enumerate them and say that each nondisprovable one is true, or each nonprovable one is false. < 1423102091 17662 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that doesn't give you witnesses. < 1423102114 131043 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I guess you ultimately get a model just by saying that each term is an element of the model, and you glue two terms together if the model entails that the two terms are equal. < 1423102129 1593 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, if the augmented theory entails that. < 1423102393 707694 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423102581 752156 :^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1423102608 285112 :^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423102963 375196 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423103394 680503 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, my view of things is pretty classical-finitistic. < 1423103419 371775 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1423103490 261418 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once you start talking about uncountable collections, I start to think that you're not really talking about "real mathematical objects" but rather hypothetical ones. < 1423103571 395489 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why I want to figure out how to do model theory without actually talking about models. < 1423103943 570200 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I definitely feel like there should be a concept of morphisms between models. There probably is. < 1423103957 290141 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There pretty much has to be. < 1423104033 882290 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it depends on the flavor of theory, though. < 1423104061 182201 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The group axioms are a sort of theory, right? A model of the group axioms is a group. < 1423104093 153972 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a morphism between two models of the group axioms is a function such that, what. < 1423104124 204435 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :True statements remain true when you take the image of every point mentioned in the statement. < 1423104148 215700 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423104263 805473 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi. i was wondering lately, why Notation3 isnt used as a programming language per-se < 1423104435 981924 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and couldnt come up with anything :) < 1423104461 750548 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, can you write fizzbuzz in it? < 1423104480 857445 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any dtlc < 1423104497 207149 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any HOL < 1423104515 849983 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a DTLC? < 1423104524 553284 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependently typed lambda calculus < 1423104526 456828 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. Idris < 1423104532 577508 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :agda < 1423104543 720428 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq < 1423104568 593871 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds pretty nice. < 1423104575 201720 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is it interpretable? < 1423104596 853304 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well...yes and no < 1423104612 679802 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont actually interpret it, you ask it logic questions < 1423104638 148621 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand you could translate it isomorphically to Idris then idris compiler will compile it to C and gcc from there < 1423104660 527388 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you actually query it with tools like cwm < 1423104727 205198 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "given those rules, what should i do now?" < 1423104731 598102 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's isomorphic to Idris, then there exists a map from Idris to Notation3. < 1423104745 557958 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure there's a map < 1423104745 954388 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so program in Idris, then translate. < 1423104769 633693 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it sounds better to program in n3 and then translate. or not translate at all, but query, or infer < 1423104826 651446 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc Curry-Howard isomorphism has to be kept in mind wrt this < 1423104911 589180 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: EXTRACURICULAR CHICKEN < 1423104936 123024 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? boily < 1423104937 763605 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. < 1423105028 752600 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1423105113 362064 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423106445 385304 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1423106475 750331 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423106586 353225 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1423106757 226365 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1423106998 359606 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423107002 326693 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized something: Perl and python code is easy to write but herd to read because it lacks redundancy. < 1423107061 890926 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. python variables never state what exactly their type or usage is. < 1423107101 723220 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why not make an interpreter which, as it executes, inserts redundancy into the surce < 1423107141 704607 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :redundant information such as the type of variables < 1423107222 367260 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :+1 < 1423107417 279401 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the original source it might say "var x = y * z", but after you run it the first time, the source now says "matrix[batch_size,number_of_outputs] x = y * z" < 1423107888 46212 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ could also use such thing. E.g. have an auto type, but have it replaced upon compilation with the variable's actual type < 1423108042 490145 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in lots of editing environments for languages with type inference you can query the inferred type of some expression or variable in the code < 1423108891 309467 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: your latest code on #9858 scares me. < 1423109048 342791 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cackles evilly
< 1423109060 95789 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you were right that type families were a good idea < 1423109101 24704 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was right that having things be superclasses was a good idea < 1423109182 841248 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, my hands hate you for suggesting 30 x 30 bridges hth < 1423109303 448661 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Putting the constraints directly in the type family is quite clever. Anyway, there's still the question of whether one wants to track the whole kind of type constructors or just the poly-kinded arguments. For the former, you need the Kindable superclass for Typeable; for the latter, perhaps you don't. < 1423109385 492505 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I did the latter, which in retrospect is the main reason why the KindRep stuff didn't infect the normal Typeable (s a) instance.) < 1423109498 331693 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my point in having Kindable a superclass is so it doesn't have to mentioned explicitly in type signatures, giving backwards compatibility < 1423109504 571323 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to be < 1423109651 123754 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also my instance code for Typeable (a b) doesn't mention Kindable now. < 1423109707 430463 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also i don't put the kind in the TypeRep for the monokind types < 1423109742 519638 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's still in the superclass of course < 1423109979 840133 :Eolus!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423109993 7805 :Eolus!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pffft I hate phones < 1423110004 454732 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :noisy little buggers < 1423110021 910643 :Eolus!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They never work >:( < 1423110046 481301 :Eolus!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1423110085 315636 :Guest81556!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423110119 599737 :Guest81556!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net NICK :Lilax < 1423110146 201982 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so just getting used to and chat < 1423110452 148272 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: So essentially, you've circumvented the open world assumption, saying "well, whatever the instance is, it *will* contain evidence for the parts, just as if the standard instance had been used." < 1423110470 44803 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :So tricky. < 1423110512 926179 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's a complication that the compiler doesn't actually face. < 1423110550 499536 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you looked at my kind-polymorphic recursion test cases? < 1423110558 172092 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: on the matter of not breaking code, I wonder how many uses that amount to variations on typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy Proxy) are out there. < 1423110754 167295 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously there are no working uses out there that depend on typeReps actually distinguishing kinds < 1423110954 328510 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Okay, let me split that up into two questions. 1. Are there any users who inadvertently use a Typeable instance whose kind is not fully instantiated at runtime? 2. What will the [user-visible] type of typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy Proxy) be under the proposed solutions? I *hope* that the Kindable (or Typeable) constraint for the kind will show up in that type. < 1423111028 8926 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (Kindable Proxy) arising from a use of ‘typeRep’ < 1423111028 169602 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : The type variable ‘k0’ is ambiguous < 1423111224 367040 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :istr there's an Any_K or something that's used when a kind isn't known < 1423111289 496623 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i deliberately didn't suggest any test cases that pick up a kind from something non-Typeable passed in < 1423111313 720531 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i feel those "morally" shouldn't compile < 1423111345 63837 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and making them actually work would essentially require having no kind erasure < 1423111362 845468 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo < 1423111463 442104 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know whether anyone has mixed Typeable with code depending on kind polymorphism in an essential way. < 1423111465 694030 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cries silently
< 1423111478 328626 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gives Lilax a lollipop
< 1423111495 849284 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank < 1423111584 12198 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1423111792 695463 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423111806 22355 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.66.243 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1423111807 278195 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hmm, I need to think about this some more. < 1423111854 315234 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: what i can see happening is some polymorphic code with signature (Typeable a, Typeable b) => ... and then applying some polymorphic type constructor to an (a b) inside < 1423111886 222466 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the most likely case where the "solver" solution needs to decompose kinds < 1423111922 228596 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: If one goes against your stated "moral" principle, just using Any_K will be insufficient, because it cannot distinguish kinds (forall k. k -> k) and (forall k1 k2. k1 -> k2) or ((forall k.k) -> (forall k.k)). < 1423111932 20044 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you cannot actually deduce that a b's kind is Kindable, then you cannot make a Typeable instance for the polymorphic type constructor < 1423111988 159444 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um is Any_K a kind or a type again < 1423112045 639896 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell? < 1423112064 144466 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still a noob :0 < 1423112099 606041 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca QUIT :Quit: quit < 1423112220 93135 :naturalog!~naturalog@213.57.64.23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423112260 351293 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot remember where i found it < 1423112298 72267 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: probably kinds tend to default to * anyway < 1423112415 662762 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: anyway, the representation i made up today is meant to work about the way i understood goldfire's explanation of how the solver would work, except written in existing haskell. < 1423112495 93477 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as i've mentioned, i believe the essential need to decompose kind representations comes about already when constructing Typeable (a b) < 1423112601 291771 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: There is this interesting sentence on the wiki page: "Although it is impossible to create all necessary Typeable instances for poly-kinded constructors at the definition site (there's an infinite number), it is possible to create Typeable "instances" on demand at use sites." < 1423112629 315688 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. < 1423112638 387224 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mhmm < 1423112670 655810 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's the sentence that made me think they were only constructing kind-monomorphic instances, and led to me making those test examples < 1423112694 115894 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've disproved that sentence now :P < 1423112720 168573 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'll add a comment. < 1423112742 452647 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1423113098 823544 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh mai < 1423113204 847253 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423113847 57533 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1423114618 799258 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i don't think it's impossible to adjust my representation to be more clever about leaving out redundant kind info in TypeReps < 1423115161 163058 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that took longer than expected. < 1423115176 367334 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did? < 1423115184 547465 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the comment :P < 1423115323 982817 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I hope I managed to express the concern that hiding evidence is bad. < 1423115529 887945 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should've used that phrase... < 1423115545 251496 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm now i'm worrying about your second point too < 1423115553 87599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I suspect kinds default to *. < 1423115558 792903 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no evidence, though. < 1423115564 735638 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe Core will tell you < 1423115593 506553 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't think any defaulting happens at all. < 1423115600 259119 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: my tests with my implementation indicate that the kind stays ambiguous and the program fails to compile. < 1423115606 606416 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The kinds are erased after all. Who cares if they're still polymorphic ;-) < 1423115609 397345 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, alright. < 1423115618 119912 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that is basically like GHC's "Any" stuff then < 1423115620 92737 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just, implicitly) < 1423115664 206614 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except when they aren't erased, and that's what happens with oerjan's code. < 1423115670 275848 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: for the first point, my idea was that all Kindable contexts have to come from a Typeable one, which must be explicit if it is now. < 1423115720 52038 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think kinds should be able to be instances before anything like this i done < 1423115723 886843 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1423115729 808337 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you can just use Typeable rather than adding a new class. < 1423115733 642478 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh, mumble. I wanted to mention that that function currently has type Proxy Proxy -> TypeRep < 1423115756 662801 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: So for backward compatibility, it cannot take a Typeable context. < 1423115775 138732 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1423115802 651062 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic. i suspect this will be a problem for _all_ the suggested solutions. < 1423115987 749757 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, I clarified that. < 1423115989 287216 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: if there is an _explicit_ type signature, then i think kinds default to *. < 1423116030 221603 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there is _not_ an explicit type signature, then inferring a Typeable constraint, or defaulting to * if there is a monomorphism restriction involved, might be the best thing. < 1423116089 932858 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i guess with my method the constraint would actually be Kindable. oh well. < 1423116142 283378 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect in most cases that appear in practice, * will be what's intended if there is nothing to disambiguate. < 1423116312 929241 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think kinds should be able to be instances before anything like this i done <-- that's not _quite_ the same thing as types and kinds being able to be instances of the _same_ class. both would help here, of course. < 1423116349 530507 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Anyway, I never considered burying kindable evidence as a possible solution, so I always assumed that any solution that closes the Typeable hole would break *some* code. < 1423116354 73182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right, that's what I mean. < 1423116357 505975 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: get that done before doing all this. < 1423116364 462615 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :'' < 1423116365 524939 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1423116380 383023 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think it's fine for code to pick up additional Typeable constraints, honestly < 1423116383 986217 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well this is meant to be a stopgap solution for 7.10, first. < 1423116391 726217 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, come on, BBP and everything ish appening < 1423116398 34773 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I guess this way doesn't break compatibility so it would be "okay" < 1423116407 159790 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but please fix it at some point, thanks :p < 1423116515 358253 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well i always assumed there would be some _possible_ code that could break, but your typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy Proxy) example has convinced me it's more likely than i thought that it's actually out there. < 1423116541 677405 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1423116604 70443 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, let's see what Richard (and perhaps SPJ) think about this < 1423116671 21997 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we didn't worry about breaking backwards compatibility at _all_, then i'd go for making the kinds fully explicit instead of extracting things deeply from Typeable. < 1423116703 546401 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: And this is why I suggested to push this to 7.12. < 1423116731 387963 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423116857 159838 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i think your second issue can be mostly solved by default a bit more aggressively to * < 1423116860 785184 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, I had vague ideas in my mind that suggested that any proper solution for plugging the Typeable whole would necessarily break compatibility, and a conviction (which I still have) that doing so after 2 RCs would be bad.) < 1423116866 93280 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*defaulting < 1423116889 28297 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that would be weird though < 1423116892 798691 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah, (And elliott: I'm happy with extra Typeable constraints popping up for such code, too.) < 1423116896 36809 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like stuff randomly gets monokinded < 1423116908 772790 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you fix it by adding a typeclass instance(??) < 1423116911 243915 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1423116913 191968 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :typeclass constraint < 1423116946 23546 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well it would still be _inferred_ with the typeclass instance. i mean defaulting to * in essentially the same cases type defaulting happens. < 1423116954 184447 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1423116961 400299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, maybe that would work. < 1423117021 24861 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: sorry, this is not supposed to be a Haskell channel. It's just that 3 of the people involved in discovering and exploring the ramifications of this particular bug happen to be here, and a few other Haskell enthusiasts. < 1423117047 480246 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1423117050 18339 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :This particular discussion will probably fade away in a week or three. < 1423117053 252445 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said rhat < 1423117059 847589 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like an hour ago < 1423117086 995181 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: yes, and we're still going on about the same thing. < 1423117106 256589 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this channel always talks about haskell though < 1423117166 990510 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh sure, but I like to think that most of those discussions are more accessible than this. But perhaps I'm wrong. Lenses are scary, too. < 1423117206 27848 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ye < 1423117434 976679 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have invented a new direction: doup which is sort of down or up depending on context. < 1423117458 848153 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on the gravity of the situation < 1423117481 388851 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or levity, depending on context < 1423117561 496418 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the void inbetween dimensions called? < 1423117565 328182 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it also allows Y and upside down Y nodes to have the same structure < 1423117565 558411 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: sounds like "up" which means "down" on ${OPPOSITE_CONTINENT}. < 1423117580 430941 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1423117644 501024 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: that's not a scientific concept, so probably varies wildly between religion / crackpot / scifi writer / superhero series < 1423117659 869603 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1423117662 569684 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO! < 1423117679 801001 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dimension 1 -> Dimension 2 < 1423117691 605935 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the -> then < 1423117693 851914 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in science, that's just not how dimensions work. < 1423117696 34239 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A wormhole < 1423117705 804373 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes oerjan < 1423117708 434849 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're _not_ the same thing as dimensions in comics < 1423117713 283954 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shhh < 1423117715 657216 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :dimension can mean all sorts of things < 1423117725 704918 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ish okey < 1423117759 897995 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like to use it to mean how many real numbers you need in order to specify something < 1423117762 918528 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1423117764 910414 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: now i'm reminded of Overside < 1423117773 501444 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from riceboy) < 1423117788 389312 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh I forget my though < 1423117791 200342 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought < 1423117921 225757 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night, anyway < 1423117938 280109 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423118098 960367 :Adrop!~Adrop@68.168.122.156 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423118170 862371 :Adrop!~Adrop@68.168.122.156 PART :#esoteric < 1423119471 649024 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :androirc gave me admin options so idk maybe its crap < 1423119553 242236 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :admin options? < 1423121431 926887 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :operator stuff? kick, ban, etc? < 1423121455 801086 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :elliott > 1423121456 32060 NAMES :#esoteric < 1423121460 359121 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1423121461 616162 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott MODE #esoteric -o :elliott > 1423121461 642209 NAMES :#esoteric < 1423121463 129401 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was meant to be < 1423121466 555308 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :Lilax > 1423121466 581654 NAMES :#esoteric < 1423121472 582275 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not redundant now, problem solved! < 1423121477 792690 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric -o :Lilax > 1423121477 818607 NAMES :#esoteric < 1423121550 237511 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1423123250 869595 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1423123257 86429 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did you OP me lol < 1423123275 358066 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could use admin commands :p < 1423123281 333099 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes admin options kick ban disband channel < 1423123299 160803 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why would you give them to me < 1423123303 829694 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :those probably just won't do anything if you use them. hopefully. < 1423123311 702256 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I am your friend but < 1423123325 330530 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1423123461 608088 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +v :Lilax > 1423123461 740538 NAMES :#esoteric < 1423123465 517675 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :compromise! < 1423123473 214879 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ayyy lmao < 1423123764 627114 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The people gather in the streets < 1423124156 386156 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1423124615 649799 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1423124665 744187 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1423124948 920940 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1423125306 413939 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423125641 492344 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, why does libcurl have to be so type-unsafe? < 1423125659 349711 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so old style < 1423125695 543993 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot? < 1423126416 344070 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot is on vacation because fizzie is moving between servers < 1423126536 793631 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.89 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When fungot is offlin, is it dead? < 1423126553 856166 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not dead, it's resting. < 1423126554 532115 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`8-ball When do you suppose fungot will be back? < 1423126555 360391 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better not tell you now. < 1423126579 817520 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.89 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pining for the fnords. < 1423126598 687987 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :pinning, eh? < 1423126608 128649 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :If fizzie moves it to the UK, it will be < 1423126902 175049 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fjords_of_Finland < 1423127255 456122 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does pining have anything to do with pines? < 1423127380 490144 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDream < 1423127489 902416 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1423127647 179660 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.89 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, it's physically impossible for my brain to think otherwise. < 1423128088 775353 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Technically, I'm not moving between servers, I'm moving the one server to another place. < 1423129551 892427 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hello
< 1423129621 338903 :Patashu_!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1423129621 499534 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1423130025 878190 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1423130054 772731 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck-ng14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41843&oldid=41841 5* 03Elboza 5* (+316) 10 < 1423130079 63342 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck-ng14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41844&oldid=41843 5* 03Elboza 5* (+1) 10 < 1423130112 657348 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck-ng14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41845&oldid=41844 5* 03Elboza 5* (+1) 10 < 1423130167 481413 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck-ng14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41846&oldid=41845 5* 03Elboza 5* (+11) 10 < 1423130199 302725 :Patashu_!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1423130616 157205 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1423131124 992869 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-27-51.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1423131679 809777 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1423131890 121606 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck-ng14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41847&oldid=41846 5* 03Elboza 5* (+0) 10 < 1423132523 565664 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck-ng14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41848&oldid=41847 5* 03Elboza 5* (-5) 10 < 1423133264 900016 :TodPunk!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1423134834 828223 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1423134903 921239 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1423135472 228936 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423136864 90410 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1423136994 58470 :jameseb!~jameseb_@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1423137402 55566 :jameseb!~jameseb_@runciman.hacksoc.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1423137402 216970 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io JOIN :#esoteric < 1423137573 24298 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: fair enough < 1423137725 716939 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ask Lilax back to Lilax, eh? < 1423137725 878154 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1423137734 842270 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1423137753 234819 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1423138323 294045 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423138457 188455 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1423138832 483280 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Mice in a maze14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41849&oldid=41820 5* 03TomPN 5* (+0) 10/* Hello World! */ < 1423138969 950604 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: LAGOPEDE CHICKEN < 1423139619 130700 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1423139838 519330 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1423142698 312097 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423142720 238456 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1423145648 84910 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@65-183-137-193-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423145947 246579 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-uvonczergiaowvkm QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1423147100 990438 :^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1423147109 574279 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1423147127 248883 :^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423147363 892986 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423147426 871889 :Naprecks!~Naprecks@109.230.236.97 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423148057 237222 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1423148087 88887 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1423148132 494742 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423148674 126434 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1423149071 235273 :oren!~oren@user3-219-241.wireless.utoronto.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1423149102 562453 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1423149273 199598 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1423149980 881553 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck-ng14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41850&oldid=41848 5* 03Ais523 5* (-168) 10remove/adjust some things that were presumably accidentally copied from [[brainfuck]] < 1423150664 985364 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1423150683 954600 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1423151027 308328 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, are you back yet? < 1423151032 224185 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1423151368 212213 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should un-invent brainfuck < 1423151373 276929 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423151427 681346 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1423151439 350944 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1423151618 997223 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current darths & droids is seriously straining my suspension of disbelief. < 1423151651 23376 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: unbelievable < 1423151669 141911 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( I find your lack of faith disturbing ) < 1423151759 794421 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I just don't understand it. I hope the explanation will continue in the next strip or the next few. < 1423151776 675846 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with flashbacks. < 1423151831 579984 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i don't think goldfire got your point < 1423151854 727790 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively, he envisions the solver as being more magical than i do < 1423151875 326662 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1423151977 658656 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hmm, let me see... < 1423152007 53760 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It will probably still be maybe two weeks. < 1423152089 119845 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i assume your point is that _currently_, that code gets inferred to a signature not containint Typeable (Proxy ...) at all) < 1423152100 565066 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*g < 1423152109 296697 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ok < 1423152110 7175 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think this stuff is actually fairly easy on the type inference level. Any constraint that can't be solved immediately (and an unknown kind means that the Typeable constraint is not solvable) ends up being propagated upwards. < 1423152162 497977 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well i agree wthat it's easy, but also it's not backwards-compatible < 1423152166 186887 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-w < 1423152176 491533 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: At least my impression was that most of the complications our mock implementations ran into had to do with the open world assumption. When treating Typeable specially (and that is the plan), the compiler isn't bound by it. < 1423152194 593086 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i don't see the difference, really < 1423152212 355396 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type signature still has to change, either way. < 1423152224 323790 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, kinds no longer become subject to type erasure. < 1423152290 476637 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a signature that doesn't mention that the kind needs to be Kindable _somehow_ implies that the function has an ABI where the kind _does_ get erased. < 1423152303 937097 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*, implies < 1423152385 645988 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should make a comment < 1423152436 568686 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"kinds no longer become subject to type erasure" -- I don't know what that means but it sounds scary < 1423152474 780106 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean kind parameters inside types when they don't influence the resulting type, right? < 1423152484 251543 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't that what this typable stuff was about? < 1423152524 943663 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1423152528 135180 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how it works < 1423152540 254586 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. but the attempt is to make this backwards compatible, and int-e's test case would seem to break that. < 1423152548 327284 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1423152704 404250 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1423153114 628869 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1423153271 692023 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Client Quit < 1423153280 938414 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1423153410 797535 :oren!~oren@user3-219-241.wireless.utoronto.ca QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1423153689 378398 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Right, that was the point (as I just said on the ticket) < 1423153706 164353 :MDream!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1423153886 72270 :adu!~ajr@static-108-48-76-162.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423154032 791537 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :un-inventing brainfuck souds like a good idea < 1423154039 479688 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's too many damn derivatives < 1423154074 987282 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I have a feeling people would make derivatives of some other random esolang instead if brainfuck were un-invented < 1423154097 565879 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then we'd have to un-invent those < 1423154111 33624 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and eventually we'd have no esolangs left < 1423154125 762697 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make another retro language one of these days. < 1423154149 138991 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except maybe eodermdrome because nobody wants to try implementing eodermdrome :P < 1423154187 343751 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :TieSoul: why is implementing relevant? people invent languages they don't try to implement. < 1423154195 820388 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :J_Arcane: what's a "retro language" like? < 1423154200 404049 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1423154201 458155 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1423154216 565418 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: like VIOLET. Or that COBOL-parody punchcard language. < 1423154218 172887 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only having unimplemented languages seems pointless < 1423154231 303543 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something meant to feel like it could've been developed in the 1970s. < 1423154241 914615 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1423154399 448311 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eodermdrome has been implemented... multiple times, in fact < 1423154453 862703 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I just learned about that < 1423154461 31507 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now what I said seems kind of stupi < 1423154463 350166 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :d < 1423154711 462896 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look to the future--there is probably yet room for a good satire of ecmascript < 1423154822 650495 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://fortytwo-as-a-service.herokuapp.com/ < 1423154874 950947 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: Much as I'm starting to love it, ecmascript is it's own parody already: https://twitter.com/abt_programming/status/563318058996224000 < 1423154890 552271 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence "good" < 1423155009 386424 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Btw, I'm not sure that some sort of Kindable information isn't required in general; I think comment 47 indicates that Richard sort of agrees, but hopes to cover that information in a TypeRep? Hmm :) < 1423155229 888550 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: ESMEscript hth < 1423155249 196044 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hands out vomit bags
< 1423155339 307142 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enterprise-Grade JavaScript. ;) < 1423155372 691954 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahahahaha: https://github.com/ajlopez/CobolScript < 1423155404 612025 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that a parody or an enhancement? < 1423155428 24249 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is apparently real software, transpiling COBOL to JS ... < 1423155430 921871 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: so far, i've seen nothing to indicate my mock implementation will be that different from what they end up with in terms of actual information passed. < 1423155494 880122 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um that statement might need some careful interpretation < 1423155525 342576 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm saying, the might not use superclasses, but if so they'll end up passing the same information in a different way. < 1423155529 249595 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+y < 1423155559 985084 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it actually uses COBOL as input, which makes it quite commercially oriented < 1423155570 860507 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a solver might be more clever about how it extracts things < 1423155597 869212 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As in, if you do this properly someone would probably buy it.) < 1423156085 896393 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-skhskiwjkgchzgfb QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1423156350 7996 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need a computed come from statement in BANCStar < 1423156421 629732 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and another comment... < 1423156436 697569 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: this one should be closer to your concerns about Kindable :) < 1423156657 386561 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :g :: forall (k :: BOX) (a :: k) (b :: k). Kindable Proxy => Proxy a -> Proxy b -> PolyTypeable2.TypeRep < 1423156681 774572 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : :t 's printing of kinds is so annoying < 1423156705 441866 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah, but simplified that will be what I wrote: g :: Typeable k => Proxy (a :: k) -> Proxy (b :: k) -> TypeRep < 1423156729 934156 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: (simplified by getting rid of the Proxy-that-only-serves-to-make-the-class-parameter-have-kind-*) < 1423156747 136213 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah probably < 1423156763 576732 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the inferred type anyway < 1423156816 766497 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: what? no, you're getting it backwards < 1423156837 862387 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: are you sure? < 1423156848 721916 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm i see what you're saying: it's not necessarily possible to infer a non-kind based type < 1423156860 193903 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you need the proxy because a method in the cass isn't allowed to have a type that doesn't depend on the class arguments, such as Typerep, it has to depend on them, so you need at least a proxy < 1423156878 507852 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: minValue in enum should use such a proxy too < 1423156878 668912 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, Kindable or the like is needed for sensible type inference < 1423156913 375820 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wish, you could add a convenience function for the simple case when you already have a value of that type, but you shouldn't need a value, a proxy should be enough < 1423156933 76927 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: um you need the proxy because classes cannot have arguments that are kinds. < 1423156965 533780 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: That's wrong. The class method could take a proxy, and in fact it does: Data.Typeable.Internal.typeRep# :: GHC.Prim.Proxy# a -> TypeRep < 1423156966 401752 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, you mean Kindable needs a proxy for that? < 1423156970 637282 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1423156976 235459 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thoguht you asked why Typable needs a proxy < 1423156979 663816 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... dunno < 1423156988 721568 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Sorry, but oerjan got this right. < 1423157015 875939 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a proposal on the Typeable ghc trac wiki page to change Typeable to use a phantom type instead. < 1423157030 970965 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :unrelated to this bug < 1423157099 277958 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. but I mean, how would you use Typeable on a type that isn't of kind * without such a proxy with a phantom type? < 1423157100 465945 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: *personally* I would prefer newtype Tagged a b = Tagged b, and typeRep# :: Tagged a TypeRep. And in fact that's pretty much what the TTypeRep idea accomplishes. < 1423157119 546532 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: So I disagree about the minValue; I want to eliminate the proxies instead. < 1423157139 866571 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: at least from the class methods. They are still useful for convenience functions. < 1423157147 747703 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: a constructor wrapper instead of a functions? sure, that would be better < 1423157148 258088 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423157165 978053 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait a second < 1423157175 371859 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1423157176 561245 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :waiting < 1423157184 532627 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and no, I don't really know what I'm talking about.) < 1423157194 233991 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423157219 733649 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I presume you mean minBound in Bounded? < 1423157235 616363 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, those. whatever Bounded has < 1423157237 762465 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not Enum < 1423157287 218404 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, we in C++ have more easy to remember names for important stuff like this, namely numeric_limits::lowest() and numeric_limits::max() < 1423157301 628245 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :those don't take a dummy argument < 1423157309 933862 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i'm a little bit miffed that they didn't include Tagged in base when they absorbed Proxy. < 1423157324 286321 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, minBound :: Bounded a => a is perfect. minBound :: Proxy a -> a would carry unnecessary runtime cost. However, there may be a case for defining a small convenience function outside the class, minBoundProxy :: Enum a => Proxy a -> a; minBoundProxy _ = minBound. < 1423157381 582549 :gde33!kvirc@546A0B75.cm-12-3a.dynamic.ziggo.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1423157402 57782 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't see the point though, since I don't see how that would save any type signatures) < 1423157447 682249 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it wouldn't < 1423157526 424188 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1423157630 604215 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan yes, the omission of Tagged is sad, given that one can naturally write taggedToProxy :: Tagged a b -> Proxy a -> b and proxyToTagged :: (Proxy a -> b) -> Tagged a b. < 1423157630 803931 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1423157831 154467 :huc!~gaetanopa@95.235.106.157 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423157890 225644 :huc!~gaetanopa@95.235.106.157 QUIT :Client Quit < 1423158043 621774 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1423158657 682819 :skj3gg!~skj3gg@unaffiliated/skj3gg JOIN :#esoteric < 1423158792 326699 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1423159120 342986 :skj3gg!~skj3gg@unaffiliated/skj3gg QUIT :Quit: ZZZzzz… < 1423159581 338127 :skj3gg!~skj3gg@unaffiliated/skj3gg JOIN :#esoteric < 1423159760 257104 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1423159773 266584 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423159835 636336 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mihip 5* 10New user account < 1423159981 438359 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423160078 113410 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1423160363 627189 :skj3gg!~skj3gg@unaffiliated/skj3gg QUIT :Quit: ZZZzzz… < 1423160516 347743 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1423160556 512383 :skj3gg!~skj3gg@unaffiliated/skj3gg JOIN :#esoteric < 1423160632 596447 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be possible for a language to incorporate neural networks in a central role < 1423160645 552032 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why not. < 1423160656 320423 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.89 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423160737 156310 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am imagining a source file consisting of defining the network and the format of training data, and a "compilation" consisting of training the network. < 1423160773 544402 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the network can also contain parts that are defined algorithmically, and not trained < 1423160913 8506 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The final executable would incorporate the trained network(s). < 1423161742 429298 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just define the whole network by training data... < 1423161765 89059 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naturally, the program input is the validation data. < 1423161853 462275 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: but formatting??? the input has to be defined as to which parts are ignored, how to segment it. < 1423161871 684881 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Prelude14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41851&oldid=13450 5* 0386.176.120.87 5* (+86) 10/* External resources */ < 1423162237 320501 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be enough just to set the number of layers, number of neurons, and size of each sample. < 1423162275 956356 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then give enough data to reliably train a cat program. Hello world is left as an exercise. < 1423162334 660985 :arjanb!8259aaa3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.89.170.163 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423162344 690247 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(How would you produce an output without inputs?) < 1423162367 176067 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-zoksmmpmnmxpfspp JOIN :#esoteric < 1423162783 154054 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-084-062-103-186.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: Terminated < 1423162800 650916 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-084-062-103-186.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1423163084 33852 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: like this: < 1423163136 502972 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :INPUT FORMAT (IGNORE ALL, EOF) < 1423163186 653666 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :NET INPUT: (ZEROS(N)) < 1423163218 966186 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other words, ignore all input, and feed the net N zeros < 1423163259 786397 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you train it to output 13 characters < 1423163293 589775 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Assuming feed-forward network architecture) < 1423163444 288358 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cat could be INPUT FORMAT((CHAR C)*,EOF) NET INPUT(C) NET TARGET(C) < 1423163495 417172 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe a more terse syntax < 1423163659 825483 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively you can use a recurrent network to get mutable state more easily. < 1423163733 61985 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: yeah. I haven't been able to implement reccurrent network properly yet tho. I'll have to wait until my NN course gets to them < 1423164649 824588 :skj3gg!~skj3gg@unaffiliated/skj3gg QUIT :Quit: ZZZzzz… < 1423164926 675539 :skj3gg!~skj3gg@unaffiliated/skj3gg JOIN :#esoteric < 1423164943 425582 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1423165049 278073 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1423165238 123120 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca QUIT :Quit: quit < 1423166508 401850 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1423166564 741292 :TodPunk!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423166685 450068 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1423166858 291162 :TodPunk!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1423166877 990751 :TodPunk!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423167856 333569 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423168408 97144 :_AndoDaan!~AD@178-116-206-144.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1423168494 512801 :_AndoDaan!~AD@178-116-206-144.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so brainfuck-ng isan interpreter, not a new language. < 1423168513 761023 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, it could be both? < 1423168558 29037 :_AndoDaan!~AD@178-116-206-144.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it different enough from bf? < 1423168577 713407 :Tod-Autojoined!~Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423168581 590760 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qmbjubfgetricwih JOIN :#esoteric < 1423168585 367259 :TodPunk!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1423168689 300801 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had an computer science theory class today < 1423168697 310392 :_AndoDaan!~AD@178-116-206-144.access.telenet.be NICK :AndoDaan < 1423168699 806842 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever fancy name you call those classes in english < 1423168730 852134 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we talked about Post problems, which are basically a string-rewriting thingy < 1423168735 555391 :AndoDaan!~AD@178-116-206-144.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you win it? < 1423168761 33197 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the first example we had was one where we had a binary string, and it kept increasing < 1423168805 725258 :AndoDaan!~AD@178-116-206-144.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bust beaver? < 1423168822 946183 :AndoDaan!~AD@178-116-206-144.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric : Busy, I mean. < 1423168849 687383 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :0000p 0001q 0001p 000p0 0001q etc < 1423168869 118224 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't obvious from the beginning that was what was happening < 1423168917 9731 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck-ng14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41852&oldid=41850 5* 03Rdebath 5* (-1) 10CnP error < 1423168934 11098 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we had all those trandformations rules written down, that were actually kinda hard to read < 1423168942 285932 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the teacher asked us the next string at every step < 1423168961 965812 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is sloooow if you have to find the correct rule without knowing what to expect < 1423168997 958336 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at some point I realized no one else knew what to expect so they had all been doing hard work < 1423169159 213812 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that class is fun but also somewhat disappointing as sometimes it sounds like we're reading a random page from esolangs wiki < 1423169182 436611 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be more fulfilling if I felt like we were building something < 1423169231 355394 :^v^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423169251 702517 :skj3gg!~skj3gg@unaffiliated/skj3gg QUIT :Quit: ZZZzzz… < 1423169269 319392 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1423169397 375265 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1423169397 615622 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, math classes go like "we want to do fun stuff with probabilities, so let's build a whole measure theory for that" < 1423169423 282388 :^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423169444 825008 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the computerry classes go like "erm okay so this is an automat. and this is an automat hooked to a tape. and this is a string-rewriting thingy." < 1423169473 951911 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, measure theory is ugly. I still don't understand the basics of the important proofs, despite that they're supposed to be nice. < 1423169495 798014 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1423169513 166884 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1423169673 406855 :_AndoDaan!~AD@188.188.80.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423169713 245464 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1423169718 785427 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whu do computer class have to do with restaraunts based on walls of vending machines? < 1423169722 942997 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1423169723 275438 :_AndoDaan_!~AD@188.188.66.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423169806 395852 :AndChat-234416!~AD@178-116-206-144.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1423169839 596608 :AndoDaan!~AD@178-116-206-144.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423169881 245094 :AndChat-234416!~AD@178-116-206-144.access.telenet.be QUIT :Client Quit < 1423169937 332898 :_AndoDaan!~AD@188.188.80.187 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1423169981 229845 :_AndoDaan_!~AD@188.188.66.111 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1423170439 369532 :skj3gg!~skj3gg@unaffiliated/skj3gg JOIN :#esoteric < 1423171098 289534 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"// false, null, undefined, NaN, 0 and "" are falsy; everything else is truthy. Note that 0 is falsy and "0" is truthy, even though 0 == "0"." < 1423171103 311244 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah hah. < 1423171133 836451 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :J_Arcane: is that about ecmascript? < 1423171158 748321 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading the learnxiny for JavaScript yeh. < 1423171335 358411 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude NICK :GeekAfk < 1423171401 377057 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.77.236 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423172049 89387 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1423172269 578370 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Malbolge14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41853&oldid=41721 5* 0370.36.190.3 5* (+13) 10/* Virtual machine description */ Specify initial register values < 1423172348 195886 :^v^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423172634 666708 :TieSoul_!~quassel@86.89.119.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423172767 642748 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423172824 257601 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1423173284 870735 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :... .JS dates use 0-based month field ... why? < 1423173526 148704 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :The question is why everything else uses 1-based month fields < 1423173574 595476 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-062-103-186.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would presume that’s because they’re normally written in dates. < 1423173622 607030 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-062-103-186.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you write down a date, the month is represented as a number 1-12. < 1423173646 317157 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1423173651 447409 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to mention, why only Months? < 1423173667 409443 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I say that, but days of the week are 0-indexed too I think. < 1423174196 498170 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1423174377 798238 :GeekAfk!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude NICK :GeekDude < 1423174548 202547 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@65-183-137-193-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423175269 231750 :skj3gg!~skj3gg@unaffiliated/skj3gg QUIT :Quit: ZZZzzz… < 1423175302 266032 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1423175537 845115 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1423176098 634600 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.77.236 QUIT :Quit: Going, going, gone. < 1423176156 317505 :oren!~oren@user3-208-204.wireless.utoronto.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423176344 959336 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?" < 1423176871 949492 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1423177197 230322 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423177218 909428 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> var foo = new object[]{ 1, 2, 3 }; int bar = foo[1]; < 1423177220 312823 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:9: parse error on input ‘=’ < 1423177222 533211 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :non < 1423177329 364371 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1423177349 393223 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"list foo = [1,2,3]; integer bar = llList2Int(list, 1);" < 1423177367 138826 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing stuff < 1423177523 245140 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423177535 640801 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1423177608 499040 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm < 1423177611 35970 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :parsing < 1423177616 962509 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-27-51.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1423177723 228541 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1423177823 880076 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :loli < 1423177906 269692 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1423178077 240553 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1423178430 385647 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey oerjan < 1423178441 670939 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hilax < 1423178445 914497 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1423178452 109708 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1423178460 565903 :Lilax!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net NICK :Lilax|away < 1423178486 250849 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :curses, goldfire bypassed int-e's Kindable trap < 1423178562 95342 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.77.236 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423178762 391772 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1423178809 765807 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1423178865 498710 :adu!~ajr@static-108-48-76-162.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1423179579 829457 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1423179860 191378 :^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423180145 359335 :^v^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 JOIN :#esoteric < 1423180304 932143 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1423180323 190334 :^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1423180630 652785 :Lilax|away!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :trap? < 1423180654 441985 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if the trick for monads in dynamically typed languages would work in F3
< 1423180656 44590 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :F# < 1423180664 943051 :Lilax|away!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razorsharpvaginas < 1423180667 473273 :Lilax|away!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways < 1423180673 682345 :Lilax|away!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :F#? < 1423180685 701931 :Lilax|away!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of it < 1423180709 133027 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax|away: trying to convince him that fixing the ghc bug requires creating something like a Kindable class. < 1423180737 381224 :Lilax|away!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1423180750 345271 :Lilax|away!~Eolus@74-61-60-199.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnight anyways o/ < 1423180777 365382 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric