< 1421452935 710851 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-66-11-60.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1421453655 241722 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1421454037 234446 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hellørjan. linguistics question: is your "yes" ingressive? < 1421454102 40344 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blog.northhighland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Features-300x250.png < 1421454153 858910 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P3BJ_eMmNjs/Uh-S0FjnG3I/AAAAAAAAAN8/-jIWn91Hnl8/s1600/Success+Content+Diagram+For+Blog.jpg < 1421454198 271396 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nys: those are profundly uninformative. < 1421454202 810650 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: the ingressive yes is at least commonplace in (some parts of) Sweden < 1421454225 227201 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \x -> x >> modify (+1) < 1421454226 222334 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(MonadState s m, Num s) => m a -> m () < 1421454232 156892 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Features one reminds me of the metaclasses diagram in the smalltalk-80 guide < 1421454241 340951 :allen!~allen@host-39-97-2-96.midco.net PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1421454256 387359 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: not usually, i think < 1421454323 328036 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it's common in my dialect region < 1421454329 350504 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I stumbled upon a short video about ingressive yes in Umeå the other day. < 1421454337 268659 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh well. tfth. < 1421454370 718784 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :umeå is iirc quite far from norway < 1421454377 53701 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a feeling it may be more common in oslo < 1421454430 702384 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: wikipedia lists examples of ingressives, without specifying regions or dialects. Norway was in there. < 1421454450 236656 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION adds Oslo to his places-to-visit. < 1421454592 623272 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : doesnt tell me much, no constraints imposed by "modify"? <-- that's a bit disappointing, and it's not lambdabot cutting it off either. although you can use a lambda like above. < 1421454602 710237 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use ingressive yes a lot, but it's not really in my dialect (or the dialect around here) < 1421455396 536754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1421455408 933180 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421455646 338910 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.93.174 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421455781 894946 :jbkcc!~jbkcc@17.114.219.63 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421456217 698626 :skj3gg!~skj3gg@unaffiliated/skj3gg QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1421457144 460884 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip98-177-176-240.ph.ph.cox.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1421457244 867148 :Froox!~Frooxius@ip-78-102-124-108.net.upcbroadband.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1421457253 281123 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1421457278 926350 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: shachaf: it's even worse to fix https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9858#comment:9 < 1421457483 850731 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@ip-78-102-124-108.net.upcbroadband.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1421458486 649022 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1421458519 926955 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1421458590 197787 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also works without promoted data kinds. < 1421458621 341697 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell int-e btw the exploits works with just {-# LANGUAGE AutoDeriveTypeable, TypeFamilies, RankNTypes #-} < 1421458621 492227 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1421458665 509295 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm editing trac posts may not be such a good idea < 1421458674 865314 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION only changed Constraint to * -> *, though < 1421458686 307130 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*comments < 1421458765 299522 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Proxy :: Proxy Constraint < 1421458766 706072 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Constraint’ < 1421458766 856880 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Perhaps you meant ‘Contains’ (imported from Control.Lens) < 1421458793 308782 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Proxy :: Proxy (Proxy :: * -> *) < 1421458794 677419 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Proxy < 1421458840 519371 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Proxy :: Proxy (Proxy :: Bool -> *) < 1421458841 970477 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Illegal kind: ‘GHC.Types.Bool’ < 1421458842 120901 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Perhaps you intended to use DataKinds < 1421458979 791768 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell int-e i see you are missing the first one :P < 1421458979 942352 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1421459438 985731 :jbkcc!~jbkcc@17.114.219.63 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1421459759 409907 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor int-e < 1421459887 191599 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :split from his evil twin... < 1421459929 203576 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not sure whether i should ask someone to remove lambdabot until int-e awakes < 1421459950 133240 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i got around his countermeasure) < 1421460035 727055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be overly paranoid though < 1421460042 781059 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless lambdabot poses a blatant security risk and tries to overtake the world, I guess we're kinda safe with him there. < 1421460051 736812 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(we still have Sir Fungellot to protect us, too.) < 1421460063 374577 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar CYUL < 1421460063 676537 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :CYUL 170100Z 30016G23KT 15SM DRSN FEW035 M16/M24 A3016 RMK CF1 CF TR SLP215 < 1421460072 773838 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, nothing to frette about. < 1421460153 625570 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, i modified shachaf's exploit from earlier today so it still works on lambdabot < 1421460198 517990 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh presumably there are few people here intelligent enough to guess how _and_ mean enough to mess things up. < 1421460244 426092 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION optimist < 1421460381 789699 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's looking quite awkward to fix the GHC bug now, basically Typeable reps would need to start including kind info < 1421460448 690045 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phyrexian Generator {4} Artifact === {(W/P)(U/P)(B/P)(R/P)(G/P)}, {T}: Add {WUBRG} to your mana pool. < 1421460471 288442 :augur!~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1421460693 195440 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: 4? < 1421460730 559217 :yukko_!~yukko@vps-7818-9356.cloud.tilaa.com QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1421460741 990990 :yukko!~yukko@unaffiliated/yukko JOIN :#esoteric < 1421460778 998089 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. I misread the {WUBRG}. it produces all of it at the same time. < 1421460821 732598 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hm... with some mana-doubling stuff it becomes strangely easy to sneak in a Progenitus and/or a few Emrakuls...) < 1421460869 582969 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the cost of the artifact, or of the ability, may be wrong though < 1421460889 539351 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe both of them should be increased by {1} < 1421460948 205012 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or only one of them should be; I'm not sure < 1421461019 527984 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with a lot of life and the ability to copy or untap the artifact, you could earn a lot of mana. < 1421461137 312093 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :life is overrated. it's only another expendable resource. < 1421461171 963415 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for the record, only MtG life. I value my own, tyvm hth.) < 1421461196 657867 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but you do start with only 20 life points and can also lose them due to being damaged. < 1421461227 812863 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still it is something that is usable; for now I decided probably to increase both costs by {1} < 1421461280 962730 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote life is overrated. it's only another expendable resource. < 1421461290 391370 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know it had to be done. < 1421461292 410998 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1230) life is overrated. it's only another expendable resource. < 1421461304 9435 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bon, maudit. encore une fois... < 1421461325 99737 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is reminded that he still needs to fix that damned Greek LaTeX problem... < 1421461372 441198 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: starting with 20 HP means you have 19 at your disposition. < 1421461408 918356 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's a gamble. unless you're playing against a red-deck-wins, it works pretty much all the time.) < 1421461472 724204 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Dotamaria1 5* 10New user account < 1421461479 982443 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :example: I have a few Lashwrithes in my monoblack deck. < 1421461510 136807 :elliott_!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot: @quit < 1421461510 287334 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1421461514 193521 :elliott_!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com NICK :elliott < 1421461529 84082 :elliott!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1421461535 902528 :elliott!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1421461539 454747 :elliott!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot: @quit < 1421461539 605029 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu QUIT :Quit: requested < 1421461543 520627 :elliott!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com NICK :Guest1017 < 1421461545 898982 :Guest1017!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure int-e would want that < 1421461550 986474 :Guest1017!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhhh what < 1421461559 410223 :Guest1017!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1421461568 416369 :elliott_!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1421461598 554418 :elliott_!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is sasl broken... < 1421461605 435366 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it also depend what other cards you have as well as depending whether you play Constructed or Limited < 1421461623 357971 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: it's broken for you too? < 1421461631 464517 :elliott_!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it doesn't seem to be authenticating me. < 1421461634 650032 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is Limited then you might not get more than one copy of some card. < 1421461636 595553 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: tough choice... < 1421461659 191880 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I always play Limited) < 1421461685 640589 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: whoa < 1421461688 197244 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I oscillate. we play modern during lunch, with the occasional about-monthly draft. < 1421461692 730474 :elliott_!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com NICK :elliott < 1421461694 40175 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan++ < 1421461695 156395 :elliott!~elliott@li278-81.members.linode.com QUIT :Changing host < 1421461695 306913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1421461743 967706 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was heading in that direction earlier but I stopped when I found the DataKinds things. < 1421461749 55164 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :since lambdabot is now gone i might just as well link it: http://oerjan.nvg.org/ExploitForIntE.hs < 1421461765 272047 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is on phome, will look later < 1421461765 799860 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, it's not :( < 1421461768 665384 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's rejoining channels < 1421461773 161986 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oops < 1421461781 672294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to make it quick again because int-e helpfully made it reconnect unless it quits twice in quick succession < 1421461793 457361 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may not even be possible given how long it takes to respond to a @quit after connecting? < 1421461806 548694 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay it disconnected now at least < 1421461806 699267 :augur!~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421461834 542991 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: uhm... I fail to understand the exploit. I guess it puts me in the very mean category... < 1421461843 526726 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: OKAY < 1421461899 973948 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't want to be mean. (except in coop boardgames :D) < 1421461969 431715 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: of course now someone will notice the missing lambdabot in #haskell and spin up a replacement instance on their personal machine, as their normal user account... < 1421461971 390954 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: haskell has this Typeable class which is supposed to give you safe dynamical typing by allowing casts between types that are actually equal, based on a reified type representation. but there's a bug that allows you to get types with identical representation by using kind polymorphism < 1421461977 742482 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get owned far worse < 1421461986 641478 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1421461998 826241 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1421462014 870490 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I ain't be running no cephalopods. < 1421462033 479181 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and? it's a typecast. so what? < 1421462070 384715 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: so you can cast IO () to something you can call in pure code < 1421462098 58645 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1421462100 708948 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: this cast is supposed to be safely enough checked that you can use it Safe mode for running untrusted code, which lambdabot does. < 1421462105 369173 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear fungot. < 1421462106 83956 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: he was in the vale of pnath, and the waves of our bidding encompassed all the land of inquanok and saw against the stars, whose course exactly paralleled that of his own two-year-old son, who had hastily translated a few high spots as they came, and he speaks her fnord but he knew his room was fnord in that carven vestige of an older dwelling and which at times almost rose to the intensity of the dreams and legends, this < 1421462135 95249 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite the interesting bug, I say. < 1421462158 304803 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how "GHC 0-days" are a thing < 1421462205 467949 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf's original exploit used the fact that certain "datakind promotion" can give you two types that have the same name in a way that isn't distinguished in the typerep. < 1421462206 652197 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421462215 383784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1421462216 804026 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1421462231 352467 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :time for me to have a few nightmares. 'night all! < 1421462235 478284 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: UNFINISHED CHICKEN < 1421462251 611734 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i then modified it to use instead the fact that types can depend on kinds in such a way that the kind doesn't show up in the typerep at _all_. < 1421462495 311948 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo JOIN :#esoteric < 1421462647 957555 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i was intrigued to try this by the fact that int-e's suggested fix in that other ghc trac thread seemed to simple to work < 1421462655 644122 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too < 1421463111 933562 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like math kinda < 1421463196 908821 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda? < 1421463222 838247 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods head < 1421463225 405097 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda < 1421463378 12993 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda is not good enough. < 1421463499 334778 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about < 1421463507 115522 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :97.6 < 1421463519 607239 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :% of liking < 1421463814 588574 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1421464035 569083 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Kindable (Proxy :: k -> *) where ... < 1421464059 92072 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: lowercase p, surely < 1421464059 715274 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a word /o/ < 1421464059 865698 :myndzi!myndzi@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3d4e PRIVMSG #esoteric :69                  | < 1421464059 865836 :myndzi!myndzi@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3d4e PRIVMSG #esoteric :69                 /| < 1421464069 534237 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no < 1421464072 997459 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you myndzi < 1421464079 725324 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that works...? < 1421464082 143287 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's supposed to parametrize over the kind, not the type < 1421464090 352319 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok but it's not valid :P < 1421464094 624503 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well maybe proxy works < 1421464104 771560 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: k -> 1 would be best < 1421464108 724016 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the obvious definition of 1 < 1421464108 874445 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i'm just thinking about what they'll need to _really_ fix that bug < 1421464129 28792 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you need kinds in typereps < 1421464137 817695 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods < 1421464142 362444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like a mess. < 1421464152 26028 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just redid Typeable to be all polykinded, too... < 1421464171 82306 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but kinds arent't poly-(sorted?) yet < 1421464209 829238 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dependent typing investigations will unify types and kinds, though < 1421464225 485858 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds < 1421464231 550750 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting < 1421464236 516944 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1421464339 648411 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ive finally made a play bot < 1421464406 449110 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1421464416 936441 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, good < 1421464571 300568 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect int-e will have to disable type families, iirc gadts are safer because there's still a dynamic check remaining < 1421464609 299362 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happened? < 1421464609 811245 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess he could refrain from importing cast, but maybe there are ways to sneak around that with other things using Typeable < 1421464632 867479 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: we found an exploit in ghc haskell, which affects lambdabot's sandboxing < 1421464643 50503 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1421464650 531478 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds bad < 1421464677 577472 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it requires several ghc extensions to work, so int-e can probably find one to disable < 1421464700 168912 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(he tried disabling one earlier today, but i found a way around that) < 1421464704 694096 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wondered why lambdabot wasn't on < 1421464748 226946 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy JOIN :#esoteric < 1421464802 128462 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm the RankNTypes is probably not needed either, let me see... < 1421464868 890962 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making a currency system that updates on how many products the user has and upgrades/ lvl system is hard to maintain < 1421464947 375921 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421464952 630856 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh are they thinking about adding full dependent typing? < 1421465007 426007 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: richard eisenberg is < 1421465029 410449 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/DependentHaskell < 1421465054 866904 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :gasp < 1421465382 45564 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think linking the exploit was pretty redundant by the time you gave all the information about it. < 1421465419 761727 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe :P < 1421465436 817926 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i don't need RankNTypes to cast between two concrete types < 1421465473 771368 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't use RankNTypes in my original version of the code. < 1421465484 177319 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1421465502 726647 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :data family F a b p; data instance F a b (Proxy T) = A a; data instance F a b (Proxy 'T) = B b < 1421465509 720935 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :uc :: forall a b. (Typeable a, Typeable b) => a -> b < 1421465509 894263 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :uc x = case cast (A x :: F a b (Proxy T)) :: Maybe (F a b (Proxy 'T)) of { Just (B y) -> y; Nothing -> error "oops" } < 1421465524 978435 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty much the way i was just trying to change it < 1421465546 392158 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that might need ScopedTypeVariables to work for all Typeables < 1421465556 749312 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that uses ScopedTypeVariables. < 1421465568 88699 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can usually eliminate ScopedTypeVariables uses. < 1421465591 808371 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm lessee < 1421465610 656962 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can probably use GADTs instead of TypeFamilies too. < 1421465626 834441 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the obvious way of doing it doesn't work because GHC checks the tag even when there's only one possibility. < 1421465631 715381 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought GADTs ... right < 1421465635 950366 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there another way? < 1421465645 176102 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there was a way... < 1421465649 466545 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did that one thing work? < 1421465670 738088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://joyoftypes.blogspot.com/2012/08/generalizednewtypederiving-is.html does something with GADTs < 1421465755 904929 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1421465800 237686 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421465804 675402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1421465805 640782 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe something like that. I'd need to think about the details. < 1421465806 481654 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1421465973 534345 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila JOIN :#esoteric < 1421466039 502798 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you get a prize for ticket #10000 < 1421466059 779678 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope so, I worked for that ticket number. < 1421466096 686814 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you got a cheer from spj, that must be something < 1421466100 934994 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/query?status=infoneeded&status=new&status=patch&col=id&col=summary&col=status&col=owner&col=type&col=priority&col=milestone&col=reporter&desc=1&order=id < 1421466134 801998 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit anticlimactic that it was a duplicate after all that. < 1421466149 683604 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But oerjan made it more interesting. < 1421466173 266721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is PolyKinds actually necessary for this bug? < 1421466188 107812 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The trouble is that it works even without turning it on.) < 1421466296 501712 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: getting rid of the ScopedTypeVariables is tricky because b is so phantom... < 1421466385 230830 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i've been thinking if this is one of those things that might be nipped in the bud by ghc's new "only allow inferred types that have all necessary extensions enabled" "feature" < 1421466421 566131 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should check this with 7.10.rc < 1421466447 196809 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "working without listing PolyKinds" part, that is < 1421466491 410020 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps the necessary stuff is just implied by the other extensions < 1421466491 579136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's safe to say at this point that turning a crufty old experimental research compiler into your sole line of security defence is a poor choice < 1421466499 512075 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU THINK < 1421466538 829655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what the plan is with safe haskell < 1421466564 349884 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem to have ever been vaguely secure so what are they going to do, just wait a few years for all the really simple bugs to get ironed out and then say it's secure? < 1421466586 1796 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What's the issue with turning off ScopedTypeVariables? < 1421466594 684456 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :supercast :: (Typeable a, Typeable b) => F a b (Proxy T) -> Maybe (F a b (Proxy 'T)); supercast = cast < 1421466598 630757 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :uc :: (Typeable a, Typeable b) => a -> b; uc x = case supercast (A x) of Just (B y) -> y < 1421466604 813167 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this exploit related to deriving? < 1421466650 288339 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: only of Typeable, not newtypes < 1421466689 167520 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice work < 1421466704 301518 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the derived typereps of different types aren't always different < 1421466803 993966 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So all you need is a way to derive Typeable, and type families or something similar. < 1421466848 21129 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1421467135 642214 :AndoDaan_!~AndoDaan@188.188.93.174 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421467136 176979 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.93.174 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1421467140 461830 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive got no idea what modern haskell is about haha < 1421467144 565861 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :all this dynamic type stuff < 1421467146 334235 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: thanks that worked < 1421467172 446968 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: well the dynamic typing is just a small part < 1421467223 107267 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typeable has been around for a long time but the poly-kinded stuff that lets this nonsense work is relatively new < 1421467250 481667 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: btw bob harper will have a field day with this one < 1421467258 312920 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OUCH < 1421467260 601200 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah hahaha < 1421467265 112796 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyones like bob you just dont understand haskell < 1421467270 117242 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now this < 1421467279 976548 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair he's done unsafeCoerce with Typeable before < 1421467285 198435 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that was back when it was completely trivial < 1421467293 30904 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by giving your own manual instance of Typeable before that was forbidden) < 1421467302 575468 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was one of his troll posts :P < 1421467308 826419 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :"one of" < 1421467600 791186 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i got rid of StandaloneDeriving < 1421467685 307264 :MDude!~fyrc@67.235.2.71 NICK :MDream < 1421467811 497971 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just used AutoDeriveTypeable. < 1421467820 984521 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which extensions are you using now? < 1421467837 582977 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeriveDateTypeable and TypeFamilies < 1421467840 646146 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a < 1421467865 386900 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1421467907 113558 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is back to phone so can't experiment. < 1421468434 137919 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: < 1421468437 469041 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, you're also using KindSignatures, which is turned in automatically by TypeFamilies. < 1421468444 636062 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1421468455 108771 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, this ssh client is a bit of a scow < 1421468479 796295 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they also turned on by GADTs? < 1421468482 898528 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm assuming you're using kind signatures, anyway.) < 1421468489 245279 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well naturally < 1421468491 453755 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1421468504 272736 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless I'm wrong.) < 1421468523 875604 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not according to http://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskell-src-exts-1.0.1/docs/src/Language-Haskell-Exts-Extension.html < 1421468539 341762 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1421468542 709592 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1421468577 632499 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: btw the reason i changed from AutoDeriveTypeable is because lambdabot didn't have it < 1421468588 541636 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1421468616 675319 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would turning off DeriveDataTypeable be enough? < 1421468634 646558 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's what i'm trying to think about < 1421468668 495203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back to the old "user Typeable types are unsafe" thing. < 1421468717 974760 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except including derived instances. < 1421468731 912474 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/types/instances/ < 1421469034 467956 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca QUIT :Quit: quit < 1421469062 77515 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets on train < 1421469087 842812 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, how did you do it without StandaloneDeriving? < 1421469112 406541 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :made an ordinary newtype to wrap it in < 1421469137 717907 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, makes sense. < 1421469439 406208 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using a newtype also lets you get away with a type family rather than a data family. < 1421469467 748863 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1421469497 347523 :Froo!~Frooxius@ip-78-102-124-108.net.upcbroadband.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1421469553 354007 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my opinion it should be allowed to define a class as being automatic, and in such cases you cannot write your own instances but it automatically derives it for all types it is applicable to whether or not the program that defines that type knows anything about the class. < 1421469609 308189 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@ip-78-102-124-108.net.upcbroadband.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1421469696 255103 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typeable should be one such class. < 1421469723 819692 :Froox!~Frooxius@ip-78-102-124-108.net.upcbroadband.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1421469728 641844 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i agree, although this bug wouldn't be helped by that < 1421469777 291885 :Froo!~Frooxius@ip-78-102-124-108.net.upcbroadband.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1421470012 767486 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do any of you persons draw? < 1421470027 515632 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is very much off topic < 1421470119 241780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1421470132 762566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421470188 915939 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: I am not very good at drawing my brother make the pictures for my computer game < 1421470205 46384 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1421470226 18527 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was doing an art final so I kinda need an idea for a second picture < 1421470719 149588 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't something I would know. < 1421471164 574604 :augur!~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1421472127 152048 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1421472168 29079 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, can i msg you about unsafe? < 1421472390 755274 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: i don't think int-e is awake yet, or else he'd surely commented on tonight's exploit < 1421472406 472046 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1421472432 813640 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::k Eq < 1421472436 682743 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :im wondering how to implement unsafePerformIO with unsafeCoerce: I got a really crashy way and somehow int-e's is more stable.. but it make less sense < 1421472436 845543 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh duh < 1421472467 461050 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: you need to understand how ghc implement's IO inside, i guess < 1421472471 763484 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-' < 1421472482 588892 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just make a replicate of the IO datatype < 1421472518 850371 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since the function argument is a weird "this actually takes 0 bytes" type used nowhere else... < 1421472559 123980 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well also in ST) < 1421472565 793682 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: just copy the IO and unsafePerformIO definition < 1421472567 655927 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unsafeCoerce to it < 1421472580 949412 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1421472604 978132 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :runST (unsafeCoerce (putStrLn "fun")) is probably the easiest < 1421472617 173881 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lambdabot has runST doesn't it.. < 1421472642 528173 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got caught up in somethin unecessary then < 1421472745 346402 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lpaste.net/74498 thats' intes < 1421473117 133091 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :runST (unsafeCoerce (do readFile "/etc/passwd")) < 1421473120 767395 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come this crashes? < 1421473130 427655 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it would work fine < 1421473192 391057 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-es unsafePerofrmIO works though < 1421473204 651099 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it prints most of the file before segfaulting < 1421473282 908028 :augur!~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421473671 439055 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you try adding the stuff I mentioned in the other channel to make it strict? < 1421473686 879537 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not sure that that's the problem, but I imagine it's why you switched channels < 1421473711 492240 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :thasnk glguy :) < 1421473729 853964 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still crashes but i get some output < 1421473734 350437 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :its kind of interesting < 1421473891 578960 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can get lambdabot installed to test this :( < 1421473896 538178 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :cant* < 1421473926 962803 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must say I like this lambdabot absence thing. < 1421474306 122085 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, less garbage in chat and if we need to share a type signature or evaluate an expression we can still do it in ghci and paste it < 1421474347 114478 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if we need to see a quote we just ask shachaf to search the logs for it. < 1421474353 897210 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :win win < 1421474364 831790 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :whee i crashed ghc < 1421474375 434374 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: whoa, still with this typeable thing? < 1421474385 839064 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and uc 'a' :: Int crashed < 1421474399 356357 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, at runtime? < 1421474399 836278 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i'm trying to see how far i can avoid deriving Typeable < 1421474404 353797 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or in typechecking? < 1421474407 962682 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :runtime < 1421474425 313919 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well, that's not really crashing GHC. < 1421474434 128702 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy to do with a GADT that has an invalid tag. < 1421474438 706628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you did something else. < 1421474464 350444 :jbkcc!~textual@c-24-6-1-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421474481 222252 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have data E :: * -> * -> * where E :: E a a deriving Typeable i don't think that's invalid < 1421474526 260123 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can use it (and the Typeable kind bug) to make an invalid thing. < 1421474529 267627 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably. < 1421474536 808417 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1421474546 256750 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://joyoftypes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/generalizednewtypederiving-is.html < 1421474552 746626 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe you did something else? < 1421474557 171185 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i'm trying to see if having that around is enough not to have to make any other Typeables) < 1421474571 286133 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol @ GHC can magically derive (wrong) instances for typeclasses you create ?? < 1421474583 891517 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That's exported from Data.Typeable, for what it's worth. < 1421474590 417544 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you don't even need to derive Typeable for it yourself. < 1421474594 767907 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1421474611 15293 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :blsqbot: 0 1 {{.+}c!} {1} w! < 1421474666 428439 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 0 1 {{.+}c!} {1} w! < 1421474666 960896 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat! < 1421474686 839931 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 0 1 {{.+}c!} {99.<} w! < 1421474686 999564 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : | 144 < 1421474687 149906 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : | 89 < 1421474687 150030 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : | 55 < 1421474714 212055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah but now i need TypeOperators :( < 1421474775 191271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just use it prefix. < 1421474780 445927 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 0 1 {{.+}c!} {99.<} w!CL < 1421474780 603181 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : | {144 89 55 34 21 13 8 5 3 2 1 1 0} < 1421474785 371387 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Is = (:~:) < 1421474839 553957 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1421474871 545850 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :still crashing < 1421474969 728031 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that was reall yfun to think about < 1421475158 725274 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: they've fixed that newtype deriving thing although the fix has other annoying side effects < 1421475170 574158 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find it amazing this was ever a bug < 1421475183 924797 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :why wouldn't you derive stuff by creating code and then typechecking it etc. < 1421475201 904666 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are like "lets skip typechecking" < 1421475208 721908 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: because the code may not be available? < 1421475213 560830 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you wouldn't be able to write the code for some of them < 1421475215 850171 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what augustss's compiler did < 1421475217 991445 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :the compiler is writing the code < 1421475227 812609 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I believe.) < 1421475230 405639 :AndoDaan_!~AndoDaan@188.188.93.174 QUIT :Quit: bbl < 1421475242 115027 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :but his compiler 1) cheats where it's convenient 2) can't derive as many instances even when they might be valid < 1421475245 380141 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: istr that too < 1421475317 227769 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't sure how oerjan is crashing with a compiler error using just (:~:), actually < 1421475343 987455 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: an important consideration here is that it should be _fast_ by having the wrapping be trivially optimized away < 1421475370 520101 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: but it typechecks :P < 1421475410 259600 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried readding some Maybes but that didn't help :( < 1421475423 261908 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should try writting them < 1421475440 774331 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1421475511 481381 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i've hit another ghc bug < 1421475562 115910 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel bad for haskell < 1421475571 283275 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: because unsafeCoerce is more efficient when it works basically :/ < 1421475584 246221 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :map NewType or map unNewType is like unsafeCoerce but slower < 1421475617 219857 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same would apply to fmap *except* if you break the functor laws in an instance you can get unsafeCoerce out of it < 1421475621 56358 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is really annoying. < 1421475862 999717 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a nice plan to fix it all elegantly but then they went and did something else instead < 1421475875 900067 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably for the best < 1421475917 412272 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: did you decide to go public with your bug report specifically to take lambdabot down? < 1421475940 562985 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :glguy: I told int-e about the bug before reporting it and he decided to disable DataKinds. < 1421475947 688038 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like GHC has any process for reporting security-sensitive bugs < 1421475952 95852 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(afaik) < 1421475959 72434 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then oerjan figured out that it wasn't sufficient so elliott took the bot down entirely. < 1421475968 583192 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked thoughtpolice what to do with it. < 1421475984 671176 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone use safehaskell for security? < 1421475985 425497 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The conclusion was that I might as well report it publicly. < 1421475989 708237 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just joking due to the lambdabot comment, not actually questioning intent :) < 1421475991 384966 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot does < 1421475995 405532 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if safe haskell is going to be deployed in production then GHC really needs a process for handling security bugs etc. < 1421476000 652893 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is basically all soundness bugs :/ < 1421476007 294566 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is safe haskell < 1421476017 433757 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: I think byorgey had some web-based thing that accepted arbitrary safe haskell code < 1421476017 584096 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :no such thing hth < 1421476033 827900 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume int-e uses a chroot wrapped in a VM wrapped in a burrito < 1421476040 489963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: basically something that tags modules as safe/unsafe/trusted etc. so you can run arbitrary code that can't import modules with stuff marked as unsafe like unsafePerformIO or unsafeCoerce < 1421476044 524441 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(including third-party libraries) < 1421476047 20869 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot uses it for obvious reasons < 1421476057 553457 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can @let import stuff but it won't work if you try to import Unsafe.Coerce etc. < 1421476060 31510 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds awful D: < 1421476094 532725 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should ues a type system for this... < 1421476094 722025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, it's an okay idea, it's just not very robust in practice because GHC is complex and has lots of bugs so you can often get unsafeCoerce through other ways < 1421476103 981572 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be better yeah < 1421476123 355114 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :an --unsafe--> function type that you can turn off the application rule for < 1421476148 707618 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should make a language a bit like haskell but without unsafe stuff < 1421476157 553181 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm burlesque is fun < 1421476163 478742 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: still the idea is that you can turn on safe haskell and get proper RT and stuff < 1421476176 804052 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like actually be able to know things about what an (A -> B) can do no matter what haskell file you load < 1421476180 754881 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as you load it in safe mode < 1421476193 387809 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just falls down because any GHC soundness bug is a security bug now < 1421476202 275859 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could compile to bytecode and have a bytecode interpreter with some settings for its capabilities < 1421476207 589316 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and GHC just isn't that robust, especially with all the fancy extensions interacting < 1421476214 700182 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's so much you can do other than just putting comments in the code "this is safe lol" < 1421476222 480397 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: well the thing is, you want to be able to call code that is implemented unsafely < 1421476223 797400 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use any of the standard sandboxing mechanisms. < 1421476226 783590 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance you can use ByteStrings just fine in safe haskell < 1421476244 961333 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea is that you can rely on the type checker to not have to do that. < 1421476245 913218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can do things like expose restricted IO monads to the safe code to use < 1421476262 638227 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> uc 'a' :: Int < 1421476262 810268 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :1152921504606846976 < 1421476273 10757 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :DIDN'T CRASH THIS TIME HTH < 1421476278 375211 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(code that uses unsafe code to implement a safe interface is called "Trustworthy") < 1421476279 409641 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ship it < 1421476282 273148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Safe Haskell lets you audit it) < 1421476286 536132 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by only letting packages you explicitly trust do this) < 1421476289 815344 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :> showHex 1152921504606846976 "" < 1421476291 961078 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use safehaskell < 1421476295 495489 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err < 1421476301 733106 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so you can know what unsafe code you are trusting to be encapsulated properly) < 1421476311 940632 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only safe haskell is abstinence < 1421476314 751564 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1000000000000000" < 1421476317 154990 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :p. good < 1421476322 574795 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1421476327 500468 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :pls < 1421476329 191279 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: this is with no extensions? < 1421476353 613581 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you could write unsafeCoerce in pure hindley-milner all along < 1421476358 916616 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1421476373 894639 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes yes it probably has a soundness proof or whatever, but what if ZFC is inconsistent too < 1421476374 56398 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its been proved you can't < 1421476379 18645 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could happen < 1421476397 214214 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :0day of the century < 1421476400 236791 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1421476401 542205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZFC 0-day < 1421476412 964103 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'll be when we're all relying on proof checkers to run arbitrary code with attached safety proofs < 1421476429 655053 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :urgent patch to the ZFC axioms with a coordinated multi-vendor release < 1421476435 663467 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :redimensionalize derivative coefficients < 1421476452 306540 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :redimensionalizing* I guess < 1421476462 154990 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds very possible except not ZFC but the given proof checker < 1421476519 369977 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it'd be more fun if it was the axioms themselves that were broken < 1421476528 76706 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: only TypeFamilies < 1421476529 771047 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most provers have a set theory (but not quite ZF) < 1421476533 404346 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :breaking axiom systems like we do hash functions today < 1421476544 708677 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh, you're using TypeFamilies still? < 1421476555 190647 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually nobody runs anything that takes more than peano arithmetic to prove safety of < 1421476555 897899 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Were you using it for that (:~:) thing all along? < 1421476559 758488 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*prove the safety of < 1421476582 80828 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha imagine if PA was the limit < 1421476585 261070 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lpaste.net/81269 some old vaguely-relevant fun to all this < 1421476590 55764 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything betond that got proved inconsistent < 1421476616 221182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: well, god made the naturals < 1421476633 666388 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :and godel made some weird extra ones < 1421476649 544511 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just gonna >_> use that lpaste for notes < 1421476680 877240 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i there exists a 0-day; if there exists an n-day, there exists an Sn-day; ... < 1421476724 417133 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: um i haven't changed the F part ... < 1421476738 929150 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although perhaps :~: could replace it, that's a thought < 1421476748 487583 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1421476762 82687 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you were doing something like data Q a b p = A (Is p PT) a | B (Is p P'T) b < 1421476766 857975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :except clever and not obviously broken < 1421476777 635812 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a marvellous blackhat demo that this program is defective, but this pentest form is too small to contain it < 1421476828 972764 :jbkcc!~textual@c-24-6-1-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1421476879 977087 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits/Exploit2.hs < 1421476889 981601 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the not very well working one < 1421476903 451010 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i moved the other one into this directory too) < 1421476971 279808 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i see what you're doing < 1421477170 414101 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you see why it's breaking too? < 1421477197 279503 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure there isn't a import tunnel a bot to quick latex? < 1421477207 558144 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw i tried wrapping in G and it didn't help < 1421477218 352128 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax, stop talking shit < 1421477227 673968 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :/o/ < 1421477247 796032 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you say that, it startled me vanila < 1421477369 386857 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is just that polykinded proxy's kind isn't reflected in its typerep? < 1421477379 734056 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :glguy: yep < 1421477416 359533 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, i'll look after i get home if it's still unsolved < 1421477416 811816 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits/ExploitForIntE.hs is actually working < 1421477437 435117 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike this new attempt to avoid some extensions < 1421477490 843727 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just the same as my original code with * -> * instead of T, right? < 1421477499 402172 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've managed to take several extensions off since then < 1421477501 274093 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: pretty much < 1421477561 23631 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm another high number < 1421477569 801109 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly the same one < 1421477655 418094 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh calculus pls don't do this to me < 1421477672 478439 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm the explicit Typeable constraints aren't needed < 1421477703 413756 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1421477725 355136 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the Core for your code is funny < 1421477741 443693 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1421477747 876563 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paste for those of us on phones? < 1421477750 25914 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :supercast = \ @ a5_axk @ b_axl w_s1pg _ -> $wsupercast w_s1pg < 1421477757 98771 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :supercast completely ignores its non-E argument < 1421477769 625606 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i need to go in ~4 minutes and will be back later < 1421477788 735985 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, by your code i mean your code after i've changed it a bit, so maybe it's different in the original < 1421477868 760059 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get a strange error if i try to add @Refl to the last e pattern in supercast < 1421477949 330956 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd expect strange errors when matching on an impossible Refl < 1421477957 748355 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :though maybe yours is stranger than expected < 1421477962 500903 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh duh of course < 1421478027 476226 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding NOINLINE makes it work hth < 1421478034 351535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now i really need to go < 1421478038 773758 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1421478450 835579 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1421478534 990263 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH JOIN :#esoteric < 1421478638 949993 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1421478646 108110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421478817 15995 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome JesseH < 1421478826 540077 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​09JesseH: 02Welcome 06to 13the 04international 07hub 08for 09esoteric 02programming 06language 13design 04and 07deployment! 08For 09more 02information, 06check 13out 04our 07wiki: 08. 09(For 02the 06other 13kind 04of 07esoterica, 08try 09#esoteric 02on 06irc.dal.net.) < 1421478851 684264 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :'relcome elliott < 1421478856 51533 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ` < 1421478876 665362 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's up, elliott? < 1421478891 782276 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhhh < 1421478893 370486 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghc bugs apparently < 1421478898 57328 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as always < 1421478924 375178 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell, I see! < 1421479356 351482 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see. it is never actually looking at the ID id value < 1421479449 373830 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as usual :p < 1421479583 210079 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah making the f parameter non-explicit worked < 1421479629 120754 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to find out if any of these munge applications (to prevent ghc inlining) are needed < 1421479718 856870 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops some are < 1421479963 859594 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to write id ecast instead of ecast to avoid the crash :D < 1421479986 768288 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only place, other than removing some explicit arguments < 1421480006 228292 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's a good guess that this might break under higher optimization levels < 1421480208 755550 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits/Exploit3.hs < 1421480216 172976 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: good timing, i just got home < 1421480236 977497 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i managed to make it work without a pragma, at least in GHCi. < 1421480268 288740 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is getting more and more fragile hth < 1421480274 199883 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think < 1421480281 14663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: {-# NOINLINE munge #-} should make it safe? < 1421480296 280987 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: um the whole point of using munge is to avoid NOINLINE < 1421480300 240715 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. but why < 1421480314 973624 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe it cannot be disabled, in which case it's fine < 1421480323 276019 :augur!~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1421480339 155746 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a difference between data families and newtypes+type families? < 1421480345 925036 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you use NOINLINE pragmas in lambdabot? < 1421480351 960036 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no idea < 1421480362 606923 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can. < 1421480390 541163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should be able to, yeah < 1421480391 121424 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway the idea is to use as few extensions as possible < 1421480396 132468 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just @let at the very least < 1421480399 58432 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: by the way shadowing is bad hth < 1421480407 188864 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what shadowing? < 1421480410 514499 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1421480440 555610 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1421480442 411219 :^v^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:b40e:716b:e7d5:ad15 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1421480467 44377 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing to see here, move on < 1421480467 284084 :^v^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:b40e:716b:e7d5:ad15 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421480516 460143 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i was suspicious at first when i reloaded your url but then i saw that its contents were exactly equal to my editor buffer and decided i must be imagining things < 1421480532 791382 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1421480536 150070 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I parse a MySQL dump to convert to SQLite format? < 1421480624 677401 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a reason for using munge instead of using id directly < 1421480661 485504 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it was originally munge x = (replicate 9 undefined ++ repeat x) !! 10 < 1421480685 279619 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i wanted to be sure ghc couldn't see through it < 1421480708 81678 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like that id works there but ($) doesn't < 1421480712 938202 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1421480737 735375 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably because of ghc's special $ parsing rule? < 1421480746 40580 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows < 1421480843 498852 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway we've proved that it's not sufficient to disable DeriveDataTypeable. < 1421480897 262135 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1421480911 989923 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: munge x = reflect x reify < 1421480925 346791 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually GHC can probably see through that these days < 1421480929 453087 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not with the terrifying original implementation though < 1421480934 333309 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't be surprised if GHC can inline reflect x reify < 1421480935 629947 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1421480942 896395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you make it recursive, though, GHC has no chance. < 1421480948 168979 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't inline reverse [] = [] < 1421480996 131428 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can get it to inline the first iteration < 1421481042 467122 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean? < 1421481081 989133 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will inline a recursive function up to the first recursive call with the right pragma < 1421481115 961662 :augur!~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421481122 164395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the bad old days we defined rev [] = []; rev [x] = [x]; rev xs = realReverse xs, or something like that. < 1421481134 523474 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :To help the inliner along with that particular case. < 1421481142 397205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you use GHC.Exts.lazy < 1421481144 424639 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1421481169 230226 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also does this trick work with GHC.Exts.coerce < 1421481177 133449 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if so, ouch < 1421481782 68760 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shopping -> < 1421483572 352002 :chaosagent!~quassel@c-98-210-97-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1421484207 160978 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems < 1421484212 298149 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1421484218 388939 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :complicated to an extreme? < 1421485271 148982 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: that's ghc for you :P < 1421485336 932993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think I found another related bug. < 1421485347 315909 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though not one that you can use to unsafeCoerce. < 1421485416 680461 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tres bein! < 1421485470 179808 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ> data T a where { A :: T Int; B :: T Bool } < 1421485470 379538 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ> let f :: T Int -> (); f A = (); f B = () < 1421485484 58923 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :complains about the second pattern < 1421485489 499019 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ> data T a where { A :: T (Proxy (Proxy :: * -> *)); B :: T (Proxy (Proxy :: (* -> *) -> *)) } < 1421485492 432817 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ> let f :: T (Proxy (Proxy :: * -> *)) -> (); f A = (); f B = () < 1421485494 980386 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :no complaints < 1421485536 715984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess it checks that the types are the same without checking the kinds < 1421485555 67212 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1421485573 102999 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like trash < 1421485576 766358 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :no offense < 1421485637 866513 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you say that to every piece of code that gets pasted in here < 1421485652 561993 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably < 1421485658 844178 :mroman!~roman2@80.246.50.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1421485674 18396 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's cuz I'm not as advanced I still understand it kinda < 1421485705 703776 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to me at my level it looks like someone was angry at their keyboard < 1421485724 107574 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: Are you sure?? < 1421485728 190314 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill be quiet now ;-; < 1421485734 406852 :mroman!~roman2@80.246.50.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: You're learning Haskell? < 1421485743 274501 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :very slowly < 1421485751 651137 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :veeeeeeerrrry slowly < 1421485758 803722 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :because school < 1421485762 579629 :mroman!~roman2@80.246.50.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (\x -> (\y -> x)) z y < 1421485769 337926 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't have much time to code < 1421485792 364511 :mroman!~roman2@80.246.50.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. lambdabot is gone < 1421485810 864809 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: that's because of the bug we found, it ruins its sandboxing < 1421485831 772176 :mroman!~roman2@80.246.50.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. Is there a ghc trac issue for this? < 1421485838 14773 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :#10000 < 1421485869 215284 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :why wasn't the bug detected before? and was the bugs occurance because of something being changed? < 1421485900 790487 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The code above looks like it is used to demonstrate the bug; it doesn't seem a very good code for an actual program but that doesn't make it "trash" < 1421485926 99580 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: it's an interaction with a subtle use of the new PolyKind feature which i guess no one has considered before. < 1421485944 357523 :mroman!~roman2@80.246.50.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand those features good enough to see how exactly this breaks safehaskell :( < 1421485970 434976 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: the change was in making types and Typeable instances PolyKinded without realizing you then had to include the kinds in the data. < 1421486000 770851 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits < 1421486004 295027 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hth < 1421486013 183336 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said it was well ( I did and I'm sorry if it came off wrong ) but as my veiw point as where I am standing in my area of expertise in the haskells, it looks like random lettering and chars zzo38 < 1421486032 996888 :jbkcc!~textual@c-24-6-1-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421486035 904625 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, well, then you must learn. < 1421486036 365008 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: those are further refinements i made tonight, now it's down to a single extension < 1421486073 938927 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well.. I don't have time since its finals this month < 1421486074 89693 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i {-# LANGUAGE NoSafe #-} < 1421486079 733819 :mroman!~roman2@80.246.50.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1421486085 240404 :mroman!~roman2@80.246.50.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly should safehaskell prevent? < 1421486088 504750 :mroman!~roman2@80.246.50.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the use of cast? < 1421486115 219998 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A function uc :: a -> b which is a valid implementation of id. < 1421486120 79281 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: yes < 1421486141 285055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: or, wait < 1421486143 188679 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :safehaskell makes me sad < 1421486148 412146 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a lot of fanciful script on that site of yours oerjan < 1421486149 10454 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like haskell has so much more potential < 1421486161 518497 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: cast should be safe, always. it's a ghc bug that it isn't. < 1421486161 930197 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I just a totally out of touch purist or what < 1421486162 614209 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, in this particular thing. Yes, different types should have different TypeReps. < 1421486166 93678 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is a hassle < 1421486171 707711 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha Lilax nice < 1421486254 18321 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: most of my fanciful stuff is in the esoteric/ subdirectory, and most of it you need to go via the wiki to find < 1421486266 36688 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I make up a Magic: the Gathering card that says "you gain 6 life and target opponent draws 3 cards" then how much should be the cost? < 1421486268 769517 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ive been trying to pursuade my IT teacher to install linux into the deepfreeze program in the computers so I can code more < 1421486271 348678 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: So it looks like "GHC checks type 'equality' without checking kinds" is a problem in more than just Typeable. < 1421486287 12270 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you think of anywhere else where it could allow unsafeCoerce? < 1421486305 818091 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: a rediculous ammount < 1421486309 381805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Why would you ever play that card? < 1421486318 439250 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: um what you found was just exhaustiveness checking, no? < 1421486336 255409 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: To improve your life total < 1421486381 577940 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well, it doesn't complain even though you're matching on an impossible pattern < 1421486388 19534 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume your life total goes up and the opponant draws three so maybe you can withstand the attacks that are already being placed? < 1421486407 891312 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i think it's pretty well known that part of ghc isn't "perfect"? < 1421486413 732663 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :opponent& < 1421486419 505891 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not unsafe just because of that < 1421486424 366001 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't brain I has the dumb < 1421486447 911381 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: Yes < 1421486457 548466 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although maybe it should be 7 life < 1421486459 152362 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1421486467 671364 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes to what? < 1421486476 179561 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :my response of summerization < 1421486490 199798 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Giving your opponent three cards seems like a huge cost regardless. < 1421486500 220678 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe your goal is to make them lose by drawing the last few cards of their library. < 1421486516 440181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :did anyone try GHC.Exts.coerce yet < 1421486518 820820 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can only draw land? < 1421486523 356712 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, if you use it enough they will not have enough cards left < 1421486524 949330 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the built-in Coercible stuff < 1421486540 55629 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways < 1421486540 373747 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bargain costs 2W and has a similar effect (+7 life, one card) < 1421486545 349264 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo PRIVMSG #esoteric :o/ < 1421486633 680816 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I guess this is meant for Limited? < 1421486665 705197 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, mainly < 1421486671 38861 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't know of any other case where GHC will let you match on something that brings an invalid type equality into scope. < 1421486818 886270 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, you should be also allowed to remove any counters from yourself too < 1421487063 961870 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1421487621 614875 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Argh < 1421488287 134211 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: awake now :P < 1421488350 349146 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay! < 1421488367 614342 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was interesting how much better your unsafePerformIO is than mine and runST < 1421488398 305185 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hi, I had to kill lambdabot < 1421488410 692557 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can unsafeCoerce with just TypeFamilies and Typeable < 1421488415 50726 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1421488492 180524 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: thanks. so the quit-twice mechanic finally found some use... < 1421488556 187301 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I was worried it'd respond to the @quit too slowly the second time to trigger that < 1421488564 374081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it was busy joining channels < 1421488580 288617 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: http://lpaste.net/74498 < 1421488580 737333 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it might be safe as long as you stop Data.Typeable from being accessed < 1421488588 383902 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the exploits so far use Data.Typeable.cast < 1421488597 197139 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like GHC.Exts.coerce might do it too though < 1421488604 406107 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure, maybe not) < 1421488716 424646 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, but how many modules like Data.Typeable.Lens are out there? (this one reexports cast, and another function based on it.) < 1421488732 274454 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1421488738 147343 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hthats the code im talking about < 1421488755 494491 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah < 1421488762 885564 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :performIO m = b (a m ()) where < 1421488763 36374 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric : a :: IO a -> rw -> (# rw, a #) < 1421488763 36517 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric : a = unsafeCoerce < 1421488763 36593 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric : b :: (# rw, a #) -> a < 1421488763 36666 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric : b (# _, x #) = x < 1421488767 141670 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was my attempt < 1421488772 670655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: and you can probably get it from tons of things that are based on top of cast too < 1421488773 381918 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :always segfaults afterwards though < 1421488798 125074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: tbh if there's nothing else sensitive on the VPS I might just take a backup and let it run, since I don't think the bug has been publicised anywhere but trac and here < 1421488808 410073 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's fuss for you of course though < 1421488824 685074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno if people have checked if it works in HEAD < 1421488827 665653 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess probably since the bug is open < 1421489072 673328 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I've checked the #10000 version on ghc head. it's essentially the same thing... < 1421489095 904630 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods < 1421489133 28830 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit dismayed that this works without PolyKinds and DataKinds, has oerjan given details? < 1421489146 556574 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1421489152 373598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits/Exploit3.hs < 1421489183 618394 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OldTypeable is probably fine :P < 1421489187 511460 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe?) < 1421489200 398403 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421489206 249973 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, another level of indirection... thanks < 1421489264 766083 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: afaict there is no reason you can't just make mueval run inside a chroot < 1421489268 409895 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a good demonstration that including the full kind will be the only thing that's going to work. < 1421489275 435005 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then none of this would matter < 1421489287 674876 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, use Gregor's UMLBox like HackEgo, maybe :p < 1421489289 670724 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a bit slower though < 1421489292 372483 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldnt it just be less dangerous < 1421489305 793737 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: well you wouldn't be able to do any useful IO without a linux kernel bug < 1421489308 797582 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which exist, but < 1421489311 262987 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a short-term solution... < 1421489332 815572 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :escaping chroots is an easy exercise ... but ... people would have to write shell code, transplant it into L.hs somehow, it adds up. < 1421489338 959139 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you still screw upt he chroot forcing lambdabot to reboot? < 1421489344 995388 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you escape chroot? < 1421489363 436357 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(easy if you have a local root exploit to work from, which a determined attacker will have) < 1421489387 84184 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: as a non-root user, you're not meant to be able to < 1421489396 93889 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :chroot would definitely raise the bar < 1421489406 132372 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :chroots aren't perfect namespaces though, there are other leaks, but < 1421489432 757976 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: also, the user lambdabot runs as doesn't have to have access to the password file, or write access to anything but L.hs and other state < 1421489447 835788 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1421489452 709604 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if you source the password as an rc it does < 1421489464 234900 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it's uh < 1421489466 481291 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a very secure password < 1421489479 32813 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could change it ;-) < 1421489485 805352 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but I see no reason to) < 1421489900 533627 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay... I can do read-only binds on the VPS. so a chroot is within reach. < 1421489927 281365 :jbkcc!~textual@c-24-6-1-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1421491354 141354 :scoofy!~spirit@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1421491609 585008 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: note that e.g. getting lambdabot to quit would require being able to kill it < 1421491613 213137 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since mueval runs as a separate process, at least < 1421492298 287971 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: btw your @quit was accepted in 170 seconds and the threashold is 300. So that seems to be okay. < 1421492361 486898 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1421492363 76172 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm bringing lambdabot back with mueval running in an ad-hoch chroot (which can still read more than strictly necessary, but has no write access anywhere important) < 1421492395 977080 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1421492539 864724 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1421492573 491394 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1421492994 134083 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1421493102 23171 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: this looks so silly: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/mounts.txt < 1421493114 65380 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1421493126 323209 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I allowed to unsafePerformIO-steal the password that I already have < 1421493136 825243 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1421493140 720792 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :too lazy actually < 1421493147 386015 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 123 < 1421493148 875283 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 123 < 1421493149 256538 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1421493158 151895 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could bind mount /dev/null over that file < 1421493159 429357 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the password is not visible, that's in ~lambda/run < 1421493162 523811 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, nice < 1421493169 303456 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: uh < 1421493181 173101 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: is anything stopping you from making a {-# LANGUAGE Trustworthy #-} L.hs < 1421493184 177430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it doesn't matter < 1421493185 256939 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's unsafe anyway < 1421493191 862983 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also I guess L.hs isn't trusted < 1421493192 616859 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're read-only bind mounts < 1421493196 389467 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yeah < 1421493302 777239 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the UID would be wrong for write access, too) < 1421493324 426920 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> < 1421493325 723978 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : not an expression: ‘’ < 1421493402 702295 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi NICK :lawspeaker < 1421493525 900948 :lawspeaker!nortti@nano.smar.fi NICK :nortti < 1421493599 507501 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: can you say if I did anything absurdly stupid in http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/chroot.c ? < 1421493615 673336 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I'm no export but you know chroot(1) exists, right? < 1421493625 301183 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess you'd need sudo too < 1421493628 212647 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so never mind < 1421493631 771833 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*expert either < 1421493635 902098 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks reasonable though < 1421493644 829018 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I needed something to make setuid root anyway. < 1421493649 310283 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you could use unshare(2) to make a namespace < 1421493665 790073 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, or even just seccomp < 1421493674 544469 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's perfect because all it can do is read and write < 1421493685 732566 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :could even skip the chroot at that point < 1421493689 167986 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> oeis [1,3,5] < 1421493690 663204 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: ‘oeis’ < 1421493698 960849 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1421493700 834680 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :those working from @run is a bug anyway :p < 1421493825 994947 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course seccomp stops you exec()ing, so hm < 1421493829 402615 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :seccomp won't work for me; I can't touch the kernel. < 1421493839 157235 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it enabled by default < 1421493845 361490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :chrome uses it < 1421493870 393376 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :who runs chrome on a vps? < 1421493876 671271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I mean < 1421493882 426927 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been in the kernel since 2005 < 1421493888 93133 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ok, how do I figure out whether it's supported... < 1421493894 513340 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's used by multiple major applications for security by now < 1421493915 113570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: grep the kconfig in /proc or wherever it is? < 1421493923 8682 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the exact filename < 1421493944 945488 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh openssh has support for it, that may motivate an vps provider to enable it < 1421493990 132942 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that exec is *not* one of the syscalls you can do post-seccomp, without seccomp-bpf, so I guess you might have to patch mueval. but it would certainly be a long-term solution, since it's pretty airtight < 1421493990 295216 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :/proc/config.gz, but that feature is disabled < 1421493990 467417 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1421494033 989720 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :*patch* mueval? that horror needs to be rewritten ... oh time ... oh motivation! < 1421494317 741026 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1421494321 646804 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just meant patch it to do one syscall :) < 1421494326 568707 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could also use seccomp-bpf and allow exec though < 1421494342 835664 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I don't know if that is safe. < 1421494411 833580 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjnewxghdpflguo QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1421494452 40735 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm satisfied with the relative safety for now. < 1421494465 428849 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thanks for the ideas < 1421494501 961760 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So, a method of finding and patching the system calls at runtime was devised. It uses a disassembler on the executable code, finds each system call and turns it into an RPC to the trusted thread." chrome used to do terrifying things < 1421494549 287321 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( sounds like light-weight valgrind or qemu ) < 1421494677 769025 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :import qualified Elliott as E < 1421494690 644980 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1421494703 311624 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just now reading that export/expert thing. < 1421494707 187765 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1421494713 956100 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm not qualified to answer. < 1421494715 682367 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see, I see. < 1421494792 628866 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: really the main reason I wrote that little C program is that scripts cannot be setuid, and I was too lazy to look for an existing wheel. < 1421494826 647527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods < 1421495795 917900 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION idly wonders how the VPS boots with an empty fstab... < 1421495880 727851 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :passing root=? < 1421495889 345566 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :systemd can do partition autodiscovery stuff nowadays but it's probably not that < 1421495948 899744 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's no hypervisor, just a container. so all the mounts can be prepared from outside. < 1421495985 520525 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and right, systemd is also magical) < 1421496010 764669 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so perhaps a mounted root partition is enough to get things running) < 1421496030 255655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's not a real VPS, just a docker thing? okay < 1421496041 435750 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that surprises me. that's a relatively new thing < 1421496054 840907 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://openvz.org/Main_Page < 1421496055 838175 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I trust containers that much yet... < 1421496059 305027 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1421496066 688737 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not docker. < 1421496067 443981 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, OpenVZ is old but it's really bad I think < 1421496071 625123 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, tons of stuff doesn't seem to work on it < 1421496151 365974 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1421496220 760749 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's good enough to lambdabot anyway. :P < 1421496224 492773 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/to/for/ < 1421496308 974444 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but yes, the container is leaky. pstree was behaving odd for a while, for example. and the brutal filtering of dmesg is a bit annoying (I tend to look there for clues when things go wrong)) < 1421496437 185594 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it also doesn't support a bunch of "standard" things like tun/tap and stuff < 1421496437 949261 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main criterion for running lambdabot is that the provider does not noticably overcommit the RAM. And that seems to work okay. < 1421496442 548961 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and does weird things with memory accounting < 1421496452 135152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, OpenVZ is specifically used because you can overcommit a ton :) < 1421496463 148834 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said *provider* < 1421496466 737026 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1421496485 799858 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if they use OpenVZ, it's quite likely to cut costs by letting them oversell RAM. < 1421496512 809114 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm sure they do overcommit, because few people actually use all their RAM all the time. < 1421496525 897160 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1421496562 98443 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1421496580 75170 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway. it works, mostly, and at less than $5 a month I honestly don't expect much more. < 1421496588 919260 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's it with? < 1421496601 713424 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ramnode < 1421496611 41641 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods < 1421496620 449718 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get like $10/year if you're willing to put up with total crap :) < 1421496646 579256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or $35/forever if you want a completely useless and constantly failing box like esolangs.org and HackEgo run on -_- < 1421496650 62200 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but lambdabot needs 200-300 MB when it runs mueval. total crap won't work. < 1421496697 91609 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually ghc's memory usage is quite crazy.) < 1421496735 419445 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tempted to work on that @run-without-reloading-GHC-constantly replacement, except that I don't actually care any more < 1421496742 229149 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*replacement plugin, < 1421496800 675493 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't be bothered; I expect such a server would leak memory, and at that point I begin prefer the current solution, as bad as it is. < 1421496818 935193 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1421496838 400843 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some "to" missing there)\ < 1421496841 830729 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods < 1421496845 763548 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does ghci leak memory? < 1421496870 396403 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Roilan, from TragicServers, is back with these improved offers exclusively available on LowEndBox." bargain basement VPS providers have worrying names < 1421496994 16322 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1421497088 570029 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1421497519 510523 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1421497739 118093 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The $35/forever was for two gigabytes of RAM. < 1421497816 981311 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds legit < 1421497898 848838 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't have long running ghci sessions. I know that ghc --make leaks heavily. < 1421498057 269781 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does $35/forever sound like a pyramid scheme to me? < 1421498554 393572 :Zuu!~zuu@unaffiliated/zuu PART :#esoteric < 1421498716 152904 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be a good band name < 1421498885 354733 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1421498959 813837 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: "How can you do this for this price?" "We've already built and own the infrastructure, we don't have the same cost model as our competitors. Our space, power and internet costs are far lower, and we pass the savings on to you." < 1421499008 708167 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And sorry, it was $35/forever (or $1/month) for just a half gig, the 2 GB version is $140/forever or $20/month. < 1421499114 324788 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, where do they get the free electricity? < 1421499139 980592 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, cost models < 1421499148 903029 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's all about cost models. < 1421499150 688709 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cost model may include a planned bankruptcy < 1421499178 595646 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that brings me straight back to the pyramid scheme association) < 1421499189 64305 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very possibly. Or I guess it's just barely possible they've figured enough people are paying the per-month prices to cover operating costs, at least if they cut corners enough. < 1421499229 88679 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, $20/month for the 2GB version? < 1421499257 4927 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. It's $1/month for 512 MB, $10/month for 1 GB, $20/month for 2 GB. < 1421499269 853069 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ... interesting. < 1421499276 327409 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cost models < 1421499295 262273 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair it's an already-established provider that I think has a lot of money to throw around running this < 1421499298 70531 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider the people who put up their phpbb board and get two hits per month from googlebot, never using $140 of resources for a whole lifetime < 1421499300 772487 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not very sustainable yes < 1421499320 412724 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though I guess they figured that anybody not picking the 512 MB option will actually require a decent amount of memory. unlike all those webservers that run one apache instance) < 1421499333 205752 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.fibernetics.ca/ the company < 1421499349 680137 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also $40/month for 4 GB, $60/month for 6 GB and $80/month for 8 GB. So it's strictly linear in terms of RAM, except for the $1/month that's presumably there for shock value. < 1421499378 824599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh, it's probably worth more at $1/month than $35/forever < 1421499386 457485 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you'll probably get sick of how often it goes down before 35 months pass < 1421499386 624019 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can oversell the 512MB plan much more than the larger ones. < 1421499452 275230 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just curious what kind of probably-legal-but-ethically-speaking fraud they're pulling off there. < 1421499518 153076 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they have a lot of money to burn and figure that most people will buy a $35/forever one just because "how can you not at that price?", and then rarely use it because it's low-end and goes down a lot and comes with ~no support and sucks. < 1421499522 380375 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a reasonable way of figuring out when a Debian system was initially installed? E.g. some file timestamps? < 1421499539 961325 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think debian-installer leaves a log somewhere < 1421499544 602084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fish around /var/log? < 1421499563 297830 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's /var/log/apt but all files there are weekly cycled, at least on this box. < 1421499565 87968 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, their $10/mo and up plans look actually sustainable < 1421499576 976198 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, there's an "installer". < 1421499590 200697 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they're broadly comparable to DigitalOcean prices and so on < 1421499601 205423 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every file in /var/log/installer/ is timestamped Oct 5, 2013, which sounds reasonable. < 1421499638 662419 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's been... maybe 15 months now. < 1421499663 895998 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they're subsidising the super cheap one with existing cash + more expensive monthly plans + below-average operating costs (so more profit from the more expensive ones than other providers) + not bothering with decent support etc. + most people who buy super-cheap dodgy-looking lifetime VPSes won't bother using them enough for the sale to be a loss < 1421499679 530483 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, they obviously got a lot of publicity for this < 1421499694 134515 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means (assuming current prices match the original) it was a good investment (FSVO), since for the 2GB level, 15 months at $20/month is $300, but the one-time fee is $140. < 1421499699 949693 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I dunno, I could see them running for years if they got lucky < 1421499768 763597 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: also consider that anyone who really uses the resources will probably need to upgrade eventually, either to one of their more expensive models (= more $$$ for them), or to another provider (thus meaning it's just a dormant VM they're paying for again) < 1421499784 853659 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and maybe they're hoping that people who actually need more resources will outgrow their plan... as you just wrote < 1421499807 275424 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how they have a 50% off sale right now. < 1421499811 85190 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that on the lifetime prices too, I wonder? < 1421499836 279239 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, crappy vm that I never use for $17.50? that sounds reasonable < 1421499852 167828 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would buy it for that price :) < 1421499874 402702 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh and also they can always stop offering these lifetime VPSes at any time < 1421499902 297403 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so honestly I feel like it could be pretty smart on the whole < 1421499913 467893 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :still risky, but I'm not convinced they'll go bust super quickly < 1421500023 622163 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Current total: $17.50" < 1421500039 333863 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
  • about us
  • < 1421500042 337198 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, but why. < 1421500098 411846 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: nice, run lambdabot on that and if anyone trashes it they'll be doing you a favour < 1421500128 32499 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1421500295 292751 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, let's read the terms and conditions < 1421500325 672861 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Master Services Agreement" is a great name. < 1421500386 89339 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one-off prices are also "LIMITED TIME", at least according to the "step 1" ordering page. < 1421500391 888550 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they've been like that for quite a while now. < 1421500405 643717 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1421500407 857245 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, can you translate this into english? "It is the Customer's responsibility to provide, prepare and maintain the Customer's locations, facilities and equipment for the installation of CloudatCost Facilities and for CloudatCost to provide the Services to the Customer. Such provision, preparation and maintenance shall comply with CloudatCost' specifications and shall be at the Customer's expense." < 1421500442 349255 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: They'll come into your home and install some equipment and bill you for it. < 1421500473 849108 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Basically, turn your house into one of their datacenters, at your expense. < 1421500488 533961 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1421500533 86124 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1421500565 351372 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you have to keep your house tidy or they won't give you a server < 1421500579 432809 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they didn't spend any money on lawyers either. < 1421500580 636939 :woe!~IceChat9@gprs-inet-65-227.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1421500923 93785 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe they did, and that's just one of the traps they set. < 1421500991 990430 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does sound like a clause from a totally different agreement. < 1421501067 164769 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :"LIMITED TIME" sounds about right < 1421501144 52974 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Customer shall be liable to CloudatCost for all damages caused to real or tangible personal property, or for bodily injury or death caused by the Customer or an End User." < 1421501158 769588 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like they've had experience with disgruntled customers. < 1421501375 539555 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"19.10This Agreement has been drawn up in the English language at the express request of the parties." -- aha. < 1421501532 462538 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1421501611 506397 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the privacy policy is a copy of http://www.worldline.ca/privacy-policy ... they didn't even bother to change the link. < 1421501785 704837 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that also seems to be the original source for the remaining terms. now worldline is a telco, so all those references to equipment on the customer's location make sense. < 1421501821 931419 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :...isn't that fun... < 1421502079 725466 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're connected though. "[...] Less than a year later, Cloud at Cost – a hosting service with a $35 one-time fee and no monthly bill – has raked in $1 million without any marketing, and injected fresh energy into Fibernetics, a Waterloo Region-based telecom provider founded 11 years ago." < 1421502294 767700 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421502315 944527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I see, Worldline is owned by the same company. < 1421502320 433325 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you said that < 1421502340 254914 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder about the breakdown of that $1M < 1421502537 720899 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"$35 is an easy purchase to get something that you can categorize as a toy, and get on it and play around." < 1421502577 788564 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(One of the founders compares the $35 lifetime plan to the Raspberry Pi) < 1421502666 380835 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading http://news.communitech.ca/columns/cloud-at-cost-injects-fibernetics-with-startup-energy/ there are some other interesting points. < 1421502820 695244 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1421503342 729541 :woe!~IceChat9@gprs-inet-65-227.elisa.ee QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1421504037 321712 :S1!~S1@p4FF92263.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1421504314 279373 :woe!~IceChat9@gprs-inet-183-103.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1421504675 956917 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :a*a + b*b < 4 gives me, http://i.imgur.com/bJ6tJpr.png and a+b<2 gives me http://i.imgur.com/ZwNH2xO.png, but shouldn't they be the same according to the Pythagorean theorem < 1421504697 898727 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what?! < 1421504717 801264 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqrt(a^2 + b^2) does not equal a+b. < 1421504725 599757 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry if I said something completely inaccurate < 1421504734 431342 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh < 1421504747 908887 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shopping is math, let's go hard < 1421504749 19944 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should get more sleep < 1421504790 663781 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't need to make fun of people for remembering a theorem wrong < 1421504796 308127 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said the second picture looks more interesting. < 1421504825 204126 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: of course not. < 1421504827 268784 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like a mandelbrot spider in itsweb < 1421504828 580771 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its web < 1421504832 660905 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I remember the theorem fine, I just can't think < 1421504848 550312 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fine :p < 1421504860 915208 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, my code for that is here http://ahk.us.to/?p=38307e < 1421504874 149116 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :autohotkey golf is less fine though < 1421504881 855696 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have my limits < 1421504886 330245 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1421504892 251044 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you need those spaces < 1421504913 358494 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking I might be able to remove the space between w%w% and h%h% < 1421504915 795532 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once wrote "(x + y)^2 = x^2 + y^2" in a physics exam. it was far from my proudest moments... < 1421504916 754610 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :but other than that, yes < 1421504936 144187 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: Well, if that were true it'd make my code much more fun < 1421504938 536676 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: freshman's dream < 1421504964 659873 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GeekDude: sometimes, it can be! < 1421504972 628903 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes < 1421504980 206755 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even a broken clock is right sometimes < 1421504989 590766 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: ah just work with some field of characteristic 2. but I guess that doesn't happen so often in physics. < 1421505019 125202 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :GeekDude: twice a day, the saying goes. < 1421505028 681949 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what if it's a 24 hour clock? < 1421505030 583259 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wasn't there some other equation called that? something that has an integral somewhere... < 1421505051 949849 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: damned reality... < 1421505093 737896 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GeekDude: http://www.watchtime.com/watches/images_db/big/109_glycine_3856.jpg :D < 1421505114 26630 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I want one, but it's prohibititatively expensive.) < 1421505315 144106 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what am I looking at? < 1421505367 292707 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :24 hours, and I guess one of those rings can be turned.. < 1421505377 391949 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't see the attraction. < 1421505488 867501 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are all those variations: http://www.glycine-watch.ch/e/collection/collection_overview.e.jsp?ID_Group=100000 < 1421505551 373337 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an elegant watch. not a big impossible monster that covers your whole arm. none of those extraneous thingies. just the right amount of information density. < 1421505556 927601 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has 24 hours! < 1421505631 649028 :MDream!~fyrc@67.235.2.71 NICK :MDude < 1421505778 433660 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly I think the 24 hour thing would only serve to confuse me :) < 1421505798 797243 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though I guess one would get used to it after a while) < 1421505932 888976 :MoALTz!~no@user-109-243-119-160.play-internet.pl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1421506360 346929 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1421506641 679897 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila JOIN :#esoteric < 1421506852 405547 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~KingOfKar@unaffiliated/kingofkarlsruhe QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1421507133 507790 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~KingOfKar@unaffiliated/kingofkarlsruhe JOIN :#esoteric < 1421507179 818087 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1421507905 187611 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, another great potential savings: the VPS defaults to "save mode" - it shuts down itself after 7 days. < 1421508391 886615 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the typo is mine) < 1421509277 266577 :booly-yam-9787!~cinch@bzq-79-178-15-163.red.bezeqint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421509352 125774 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :An IP change when re-imaging. Interesting... < 1421509535 244029 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you buy one of them just to investigate < 1421509557 318660 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're supporting their business model :) < 1421509565 362875 :woe!~IceChat9@gprs-inet-183-103.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers. < 1421509782 681885 :booly-yam-9787!~cinch@bzq-79-178-15-163.red.bezeqint.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1421509855 710442 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sure did. < 1421510003 252637 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1421510396 636396 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-66-11-60.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421512213 511759 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think of it as a Telco-who-sells-toys-as-a-side-business, which is a charming idea ;-) < 1421512288 793902 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. unfortunately we rely on one of those toys for our wiki :p < 1421512738 835988 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1421512749 946086 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought i could get some good lambda terms tto test my program on from BLC < 1421512754 995128 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I realized they are lazy.... < 1421512765 995354 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :do yonkow where i can get some free strict lambda terms < 1421512784 288994 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's the fun in that < 1421512801 167381 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :itsn ot so much fun , but helps me test my compiler works < 1421512890 481726 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh BLC is strict? < 1421512894 788587 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a little sad < 1421512895 711265 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :BLC is lazy. < 1421512901 24211 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :my language is strict < 1421512902 396063 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1421512909 462039 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could use futamura to port cod efrom otherl languages but its a lot of work...... < 1421512960 107059 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can write strict lambda terms for $100/hour <_< < 1421512973 543748 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x.x < 1421512983 476218 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric : icant afford that! < 1421512988 723455 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people can. < 1421513019 593690 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :( < 1421513048 344954 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: why don't you take a couple of church numerals, say evaluate (\f x.f (f (f (f x)))) (\f x. f (f (f (f x)))) < 1421513070 608915 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ys il definitely do a few of those < 1421513095 16583 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are essentially folds and can be evaluated strictly. most of the really interesting code involved fixed points and those are icky in strict lambda calculus. < 1421513117 547277 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the lazyness lets the code be shorter < 1421513155 281633 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: NEWTONIAN CHICKEN < 1421513341 984135 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and some neat blc programs have infinite output) < 1421513360 760448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is probably an easy lazy->strict conversion? < 1421513413 976718 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think CBN CPS would work < 1421513425 742588 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i dont wnat to introduce more stuff that might have bugs in it < 1421513517 367121 :supay!sid47179@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bbrmekbajiyydsjc QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1421513530 352487 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1421513537 265762 :ocharles_!sid30093@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wgftzmsdytxyisae QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1421513966 367527 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1421514165 124165 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1421514266 693377 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1421514421 480835 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1421514467 165998 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@ip-78-102-124-108.net.upcbroadband.cz QUIT :Quit: *bubbles away* < 1421514911 831287 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@ip-78-102-124-108.net.upcbroadband.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1421515618 975928 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, why do I have rpcbind running on that VPS now? < 1421515661 700795 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :some nfs support apparently. < 1421515664 457691 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :NFS? < 1421515696 413058 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson! < 1421515696 943287 :MoALTz!~no@78-11-152-253.static.ip.netia.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1421515707 47572 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :who wants this sh... stuff? < 1421515712 378493 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, the VPS? < 1421515715 467137 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1421515738 543070 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lambdabot vps? < 1421515758 630470 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the brand new cheap one < 1421515762 1624 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1421515769 845322 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for sale: baby vps, never worn < 1421515791 573168 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pristine file system < 1421515838 353570 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lambdabot vps only listens to port 22 from outside (and so, now, does the cheap one) < 1421516332 675575 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-66-11-60.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1421516464 767678 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :helpful. "Jan 17 12:38:54 cheap mpt-statusd: detected non-optimal RAID status" ["cheap" is the hostname] < 1421516507 927726 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"non-optimal", nice euphemism < 1421516533 14278 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what it means, apparently, is "open /dev/mptctl: No such file or directory" < 1421516558 10521 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt there's much optimal about any of it < 1421516576 449008 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what this is doing at all on a VPS. < 1421516870 973782 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH NICK :NotJesseH < 1421516873 92164 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and look at all these kernel modules ... sound... I guess that's important! < 1421516890 222039 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you can make noise in their data centre with it < 1421516905 237749 :NotJesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH NICK :JesseH < 1421516915 833780 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a drm module < 1421516930 452335 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is amazing how many songs it is possible to sing to the tune of House of the Rising Sun < 1421516963 608625 :ocharles_!sid30093@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hewglifnpllrkcxu JOIN :#esoteric < 1421517161 36405 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think drm here means drm rather than drm < 1421517176 221497 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :direct rendering mode, of course < 1421517181 519758 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :important in a headless server < 1421517183 422081 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1421517209 855390 :mroman!~roman2@80.246.50.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :digital remodelling? < 1421517220 558064 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it running a display manager too, for that all-important graphical login? < 1421517258 579040 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, Just played house of the rising sun instrumental along with a tupac acapella and it worked sort of < 1421517264 885296 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just dome gettys. (I actually have some vnc-like interface where I get to see the text console, even during boot. < 1421517267 929569 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1421517273 304130 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they're using some vmware thingy) < 1421517282 863942 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :JesseH, Drop It Like It's Hot works, and 99 Red Balloons aaalmost does < 1421517295 30002 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1421517332 711358 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, Try playing it along with a science lecture < 1421517345 806977 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might write a lang that does just this < 1421517826 562434 :^v^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:b40e:716b:e7d5:ad15 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1421517849 208292 :^v^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:b40e:716b:e7d5:ad15 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421518236 316725 :supay!sid47179@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zzzzvxoptruzfgdt JOIN :#esoteric < 1421518522 556388 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what < 1421519088 246922 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1421519181 996903 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07ComeFrom214]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41693&oldid=41688 5* 03DDR 5* (+679) 10Added pedigree, tags. < 1421519236 308763 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07ComeFrom214]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41694&oldid=41693 5* 03DDR 5* (+6) 10Found out where an uncommented line of text went. Commented it out. < 1421519244 182176 :augur!~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1421519286 323275 :augur!~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421519548 213434 :augur!~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1421519642 810870 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, to me? < 1421519821 279911 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :JesseH: no, it was unrelated < 1421519825 627281 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1421519833 853223 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poo, was hoping you were interested < 1421520478 156469 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1421520643 834105 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07ComeFrom214]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41695&oldid=41694 5* 03DDR 5* (+1642) 10Annotated counting to 10. < 1421520811 361335 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, the bot shows wiki updates? < 1421520820 55717 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1421520826 587849 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :This would have been useful (one sec) < 1421520857 452047 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :a year ago < 1421521002 163784 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It didn't do that a year ago. < 1421521009 877280 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a relatively new feature. < 1421521025 645169 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was probably added because somebody thought it'd be useful < 1421521033 922062 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a guess. < 1421521043 850593 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think it was added because MediaWiki supported it. < 1421521063 428861 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, the kind of climbing-Everest style justification of "because it was there". < 1421521083 433300 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's also a possibility < 1421521090 550727 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be a combination of both! < 1421521116 178039 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :One further contributing factor was that the wiki moved to be on the same system as the bot. < 1421521124 150610 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though that's not strictly speaking a requirement for it. < 1421521136 313156 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The updates are sent over UDP.) < 1421521149 226600 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, you'd have insider knowledge about that < 1421522279 523525 :augur!~augur@74.174.236.84 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421522621 359570 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1421523631 822799 :S1!~S1@p4FF92263.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: S1 < 1421525244 205785 :augur!~augur@74.174.236.84 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1421525260 675210 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421525592 861029 :augur!~augur@74.174.236.84 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421527157 588647 :augur!~augur@74.174.236.84 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1421527496 830545 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: So what's the situation with lambdabot? < 1421527505 655461 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You put it in a chroot? < 1421527680 384401 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mueval is chrooted < 1421527689 304599 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not so worried about lambdabot itself < 1421527726 382346 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are enough extensions for the bug? < 1421527736 79576 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so you should turn DataKinds back on at one point. < 1421527845 43403 :chaosagent!~quassel@c-98-210-97-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421528489 341134 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1421528750 973396 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1421528961 589138 :Patashu_!Verdonna_@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1421528961 740309 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1421529176 485893 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have had quite an enjoyable chinese talkaway < 1421529704 808752 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 NICK :tIEsLEEP < 1421529771 935333 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1421529798 63931 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t Refl < 1421529798 892471 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a1 :~: a1 < 1421530630 566537 :jbkcc!~textual@c-24-6-1-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421531017 269791 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it written in an esolang? < 1421531046 319481 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looking for general purpose esolang < 1421531119 200450 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder if any good ones are available. < 1421531136 439219 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :(good being pretty vague) < 1421531215 232654 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preferably one with batteries included, so to speak. < 1421531253 909950 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe look at the golfscript family? I dunno. < 1421531341 778859 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :your requirements may be self-contradictory; included batteries usually indicate some sort of success, and that means the language fails to be esoteric. < 1421531373 376945 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1421531404 911918 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a language can be esoteric and still be able to do things. < 1421531409 752660 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :JesseH: if you just want an esoteric _core_ but with a non-esoteric easy to use interface over it, just go with x86_64 and C++. < 1421531438 980909 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want something exotic, try some scheme or smalltalk thingy maybe? or, I dunno < 1421531442 15980 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy to use? I don't remember typing that. < 1421531481 987661 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hey, I expected these answers :) < 1421531488 108809 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just not sure what youw ant then < 1421531534 316876 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you just want an esolang that lets you call into existing libraries, including ones written in non-eso langs? < 1421531545 28892 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like haskell or something) < 1421531587 385062 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps, or ones just written in that language, but yeah some higher level things just in an esoteric way < 1421531615 88655 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about J then? < 1421531663 569042 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1421531675 54967 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: as you've probably seen, oerjan figured out that just TypeFamilies + DeriveDataTypeable and StandaloneDeriving or AutoDeriveTypeable + RankNTypes (to get rid of typeable constraints) suffices for exploiting that bug. I have not yet managed to do it without type families, though it looks like it should be possible to exploit fundeps instead. < 1421531725 99449 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu QUIT :Quit: (brb with DataKinds) < 1421531743 790472 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I am being self contradictory < 1421531749 304005 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Undecided < 1421531763 630481 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :Testing the boundaries < 1421531926 820841 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the asm suggestion was valid < 1421531947 714193 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a stricter definition of esoteric. < 1421531986 971181 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1421532050 717107 :MDude!~fyrc@67.235.2.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would you consider "batteries"? < 1421532063 392167 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1421532124 13336 :MDude!~fyrc@67.235.2.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you just want graphics and sound interface for an esolang, there's IBNIZ and ByteByteJump. < 1421532244 357244 :MDude!~fyrc@67.235.2.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, BytePusher is the version with graphics. < 1421532278 600576 :Patashu_!Verdonna_@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1421532284 492309 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1421532297 462069 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Yes, I was part of that outfiguring. < 1421532307 190595 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: You don't even need DeriveDataTypeable, do you? < 1421532331 59479 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan's latest thing just turned on TypeFamilies. < 1421532360 735342 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: By the way, if you switch from TypeFamilies to some other extensions providing similar power, you won't get KindSignatures turning on automatically. < 1421532403 335809 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1421532462 812633 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right, he did. < 1421532486 900645 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be possible to have GHC infer the kinds, though. < 1421532863 77032 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1421532869 944697 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1421532885 947783 :FreeFull!~freefull@wk-30-193.guest.rdg.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1421532889 822705 :FreeFull!~freefull@wk-30-193.guest.rdg.ac.uk QUIT :Changing host < 1421532889 973186 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1421533010 979682 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude, sockets, split, and other things < 1421533045 358311 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH PRIVMSG #esoteric :could just add those things to my own lang < 1421533127 949456 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1421533282 703704 :tIEsLEEP!~quassel@86.89.119.147 NICK :TieSoul < 1421533932 326016 :augur!~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1421533994 59330 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1421534142 583734 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1421534379 328829 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1421534717 329117 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gcioeeyzsqhccdtf JOIN :#esoteric < 1421534763 630584 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gcioeeyzsqhccdtf PRIVMSG #esoteric :is lambdabot fixed < 1421534777 351162 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gcioeeyzsqhccdtf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> pizza < 1421534778 397496 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: ‘pizza’ < 1421534813 588392 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ordered Pizza Frutti de Mare with Pineapple and Anchovies. < 1421534817 521500 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry for OT < 1421535089 350296 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1421535103 281983 :MDude!~fyrc@67.235.2.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1 < 1421535104 781692 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 < 1421535134 716150 :MDude!~fyrc@67.235.2.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1 ( 1 ) < 1421535136 133821 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t)) < 1421535136 284351 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_111’ < 1421535136 284472 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a -> t), GHC.Num.Num a) < 1421535171 321464 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gcioeeyzsqhccdtf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1^2(7+7)\frac{dy}{dx}(7*8b^2) < 1421535172 417685 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:9: parse error on input ‘\’ < 1421535181 418350 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gcioeeyzsqhccdtf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1421535198 818517 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gcioeeyzsqhccdtf PRIVMSG #esoteric :touchè < 1421535544 303318 :S1!~S1@p4FF929B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1421535682 232269 :MDude!~fyrc@67.235.2.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> < < 1421535683 335182 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:1: parse error on input ‘<’ < 1421535809 5483 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1421535989 658025 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1421537054 1271 :jbkcc!~textual@c-24-6-1-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1421537109 143876 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any .XI instruments? I want to make AmigaMML in #EXTENDED mode to accept .XI instruments (in addition to what it already accepts). < 1421537811 255608 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1421537846 781432 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know these things? < 1421537877 992017 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to remember whether kiarchive or waveworld had any .XI files < 1421537893 461701 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gcioeeyzsqhccdtf PRIVMSG #esoteric :>help < 1421537900 754394 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gcioeeyzsqhccdtf PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot: pls < 1421537906 715840 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :milkytracker can readily fabricate them if you need them < 1421538059 315274 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lilax: i think you want @help . > (which needs a space after) is only for evaluating haskell expressions. < 1421538085 144335 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@help < 1421538085 295288 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands < 1421538134 436365 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hey a suggestion: @help should show the prefixes, and > help could be defined to do the same thing < 1421538176 864501 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> help < 1421538178 448607 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: ‘help’ < 1421538281 250943 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell int-e it might help newbies if @help showed lambdabot's prefixes, and help could be defined so > help does the same thing < 1421538281 437866 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1421538382 963009 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1421538691 273305 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1421538691 451030 :Patashu_!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1421538723 803590 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude NICK :GeekCraft < 1421538918 71500 :Lilax!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gcioeeyzsqhccdtf PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks Mr. oerjan < 1421538924 719719 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, kiarchive has .XI instruments: http://modarchive.org/?faq-torrents-current < 1421539011 612255 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1421539081 550555 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But do they have just some ZIP archives with a few files? I don't need all of them.