00:16:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:35:54 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:07:27 -!- nooga has joined. 01:12:04 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:14:41 -!- Dulnes has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:19:36 Am I a bad person for recommending Node.JS to someone trying to build a chat? It makes the most sense to me... 01:20:35 Yes. 01:26:01 [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41267&oldid=41256 * SuperJedi224 * (+64) 01:26:23 [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41268&oldid=41267 * SuperJedi224 * (+3) /* Command Summary */ 01:31:29 -!- EisenHerz has changed nick to Sauvin. 01:46:14 [wiki] [[Popular problem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41269&oldid=30415 * 122.102.45.251 * (+266) 01:48:25 -!- oren has joined. 01:50:55 [wiki] [[Popular problem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41270&oldid=41269 * Orenwatson * (-266) Undo revision 41269 by [[Special:Contributions/122.102.45.251|122.102.45.251]] ([[User talk:122.102.45.251|talk]]) spam 01:53:04 seo melbourne? why melbourne 01:53:10 fizzie: captcha got solved 01:53:22 maybe it was just a human though 01:54:00 is seo even a real thing anymore 01:54:03 ? 01:54:58 or does it just refer to making the pages bot-readable? 01:58:35 HOLY SH%$$%@%$ 01:58:55 I just got a email back from the maker of MNNBFSL 01:59:17 He wrote in English 01:59:23 "Thank you for writing an article of MNNBFSL." 01:59:24 MNNBFSL? 01:59:37 "I read http://esolangs.org/wiki/MNNBFSL ." 01:59:47 "In this artcile, "It appears to have been ... in late August 2014." 01:59:49 but it is invented in July. 02:00:05 japanese people found to know english, world shocked :p 02:00:15 "publicized in August 2014"? 02:00:28 "MNNBFSL is inspired by Brainfuck and Forth. Forth can manipulate return stack. Forth programmers can write puzzle like program by this feature." 02:01:06 "I think it is interesting, so I want to create esoteric language that can manipulate return stack." 02:01:14 "Thanks" 02:01:22 elliott: they *do* surely know English, they just don't write in it normally :p 02:01:31 This is very good English for a Japanese person. 02:01:39 In my experience anyway 02:01:52 they get taught english y'know 02:02:08 so do some 2 billion people around the world 02:02:11 In high school, but that's like I'm supposed to knwo French 02:02:26 but i can't speak a word 02:02:36 japanese people have more incentive to learn english than you do to learn french, if you're not canadian 02:02:39 lifthrasiir: yeah, that's my point 02:02:47 at least I can barely remember rendezvous is a correct spelling 02:02:54 i'm canadian but i'm from Ontario 02:03:25 not that canada, the other one 02:03:32 oren: well, foreign language classes in the english world are basically hobbies 02:03:57 and foreign language classes in the non-english world are basically for survivals 02:04:00 (seriously.) 02:04:02 knowing english is more of a necessity... 02:04:15 (as in, treated as one by education systems) 02:07:12 Even without school-taught english, plenty of non-english-speaking countries consume lots of english media and pick it up that way 02:07:19 At least for countries that don't dub everything they import 02:08:18 oren: btw, you know anarchy golf (where the author of MNNBFSL, yshl, participates) is a japanese site with many japanese players, right? :) 02:08:22 * FireFly 's pronounciation was terrible initially from having picked up english from pokemon and online forums 02:09:02 japanese people put subtitles in Japanese on everything 02:10:17 * oren , when he was in japan, saw a lot of badly used English 02:11:13 We sub movies/TV series as well, though games remain untranslated 02:11:14 it is relevant that avoiding english while being a programmer who knows a lot of languages etc. is incredibly difficult... 02:11:27 [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41271&oldid=41229 * Orenwatson * (+37) updtaed with info from inventor 02:11:44 (so you'd expect programmers to generally have a decent grasp of english even regardless of the general statistics) 02:12:21 yeah becuase programming languages and libraries are based on english keywords 02:12:38 (with very few exceptions) 02:12:43 well, moreso documentation 02:12:48 but yes 02:13:11 ("def" and "int" aren't english words, so just treating keywords as opaque wouldn't be too much of an obstacle) 02:13:27 drawtriangle 02:13:43 things like that 02:14:40 but yeah a lot of documentation doesn't bother having any other languages. 02:14:43 I like how the full japanese name of the language is light novel title length. 02:15:00 that's the Japanese way 02:15:11 poketto monsuta! pokemon! 02:16:47 elliott, it does? 02:16:55 it does what? 02:17:24 The full japanese name of the language 02:17:24 まだ名前のないBF風スタック言語 02:17:33 Oh, MNNBFSL 02:17:40 I assumed you were talking about Japanese for some reason 02:19:34 nah in Japanese the language is just called 日本語 "nihongo" 02:19:50 not light novel title length 02:19:52 it translates as "My Little Sister Forced Me To Create A Brainfuck Derivative, And Now The Whole School Is Laughing At Me!" 02:20:01 lolololol 02:20:04 WWWWWWW 02:20:11 Oh wow ahahaha 02:20:22 (it doesn't but it should) 02:25:23 俺の妹はBF元着く言語を無理矢理着かせた！ 02:25:42 My little sister forced me to make a BF derivative 02:27:16 今、学校のみんなが俺を笑う！ 02:27:33 now, eveyone at school is laughing at me! 02:27:39 there you go 02:27:44 please don't make this language 02:27:55 lololol 02:28:08 trolololol.gif 02:28:39 you know IRC doesn't support images, right 02:28:48 some web clients do 02:29:05 yeah but when you see the name of the image you know what image it is 02:29:35 like doge.jpeg 02:29:50 orebrefa 02:29:53 you can actually allude to things without adding file extensions 02:30:16 oreimo indeed is a crazy anime. 02:30:35 but its funnier when it's ohmaigaa.webm 02:31:24 wilhelmscream.mp3 02:31:28 my favourite meme is rotten_dog.tiff.shar.bz2 02:32:30 isn't that one a bit old by now 02:32:32 -!- dianne_ has changed nick to dianne. 02:32:35 it's even decomposing 02:32:51 swap.avi 02:33:09 hello.jpg 02:33:13 PKZIP.EXE 02:34:10 onestop.mid 02:34:43 remember C:\Windows\media? 02:35:11 dan dadan dan dan daaaaan 02:36:27 2girls1cup.mp4 02:37:00 trolololol.mp3 02:37:41 yerawizardharry.avi 02:37:42 C:\con\con 02:38:45 I'm glad this channel is getting even worse :p 02:39:23 ofcourse.wav 02:39:43 I'm sad this channel is getting even worse :( 02:40:22 allthewhosdowninwhovillecryboohoo.webm 02:41:22 okay this got old like five minutes ago 02:41:22 I'm mad this channel is getting even worse >:( 02:41:40 tomeitwastuesday.wmv 02:41:41 I'm dianne 02:41:49 hi dianne 02:41:56 hi 02:43:03 I'm Taneb 02:43:17 Sometimes I'm also Nathan 02:43:24 Although not on IRC 02:43:30 `? Nathan 02:43:32 Nathan? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 02:56:21 -!- nooga has joined. 03:00:00 -!- CADD has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:00:47 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:34:36 -!- CrazyM4n has joined. 03:34:37 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 03:45:02 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 03:47:13 Can a Pokemon card puzzle possibly be made up that the goal is for the players to cooperate to end the game as quickly as possible (it doesn't matter who wins or if it would end in a draw)? There may be many other conditions to be possible too 03:48:24 interesting 03:48:31 I could see it 03:51:02 -!- shikhout has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:55:40 https://github.com/charcole/Z3 04:11:42 zzo38: I concede 04:11:59 Conceding isn't allowed of course 04:16:09 zzo38: Yes, such a puzzle could possibly be made up. 04:21:46 -!- GeekDude has changed nick to GeekZzZzZ. 04:21:49 -!- GeekZzZzZ has changed nick to GeekZzZzZz. 04:24:28 Do you know how to make it good though? 04:31:37 -!- Dulnes has joined. 04:31:51 Mmm not much discussed 04:40:34 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 04:40:53 -!- GeekZzZzZz has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 04:43:43 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:45:17 -!- nooga has joined. 04:46:37 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Quit: Quit). 04:48:21 -!- CrazyM4n has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 04:49:37 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:52:28 -!- dianne has left. 05:23:29 `slist supdate 05:23:31 slist supdate: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 05:29:01 -!- ZombieAlive has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:37:45 -!- cluid has joined. 05:37:47 hi 05:39:46 whoa https://github.com/charcole/Z3 05:40:58 #haskell is such a disaster 05:42:55 Interesting newsham 05:43:37 @newsham I was reading alangsec article an dyou were mentioned 05:43:37 Unknown command, try @list 05:44:18 why? 05:44:23 which article? 05:45:09 I was thinking about making an esolang page on ROP, this is one thing i read http://langsec.org/papers/Bratus.pdf 05:45:16 what do you think about such an article? 05:46:11 -!- ZombieAlive has joined. 05:47:17 i think the topic is interesting, though i'm not sure if looking at them through the lense of "weird machiens" is all that enlightening... 05:47:26 i guess if thats your passion, its a valid way of looking at it.. 05:47:50 The best article is geometry of flesh on the bone 05:47:51 thats a pretty flattering mention of my name.. i like it.. 05:48:33 everyone seems to be trying to be really deep and philosophical and clever about it, but its just understanding the computer and making it do stuff... 05:49:06 i dont think its that great of a leap of faith to say that if you control the stack frame of a program you basically control the control flow and the program 05:49:33 running a program using page faults is a little more clever.. 05:50:41 i,i nop-oriented programming 05:52:53 newsham, yeah some of the langsec stuff I see is slightly askew, but seeing security people finally say that you shosuld be recognizing languages rather than regex blacklighting 'bad' stuff makes me really happy 05:53:14 blacklisting* 05:54:04 security professionals should be able to tell you that whitelisting is better than blacklisting anyway :) 05:54:10 and regexps arent often the best tool 05:55:12 but I think ROP is a cool esolang 05:55:16 and deserves a place on the wiki, no? 05:55:43 yah, rop is kinda a neat esolang 05:55:53 well, family of esolangs really 05:56:11 yeah :) 05:57:05 ever see massalin's superoptimizer paper? 05:57:28 no, ill have a look now 05:57:28 even cooler, i think :) 05:57:33 http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs343/resources/cs343-annot-superopt.pdf 05:57:38 thanks 05:58:31 he doesn't qualify "finds shorted program that computes a given function" with any caveats lol 05:58:47 would be neat "growing" programs organically (ie. search/annealing/genetic prog) and then trying to analyze them 05:59:23 i bet sooner or later you'd find much cooler things than rop going on 06:05:31 http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs343/ 06:05:56 is that a 'trusting trust' compiler? 06:06:33 dawson engler is godlike 06:06:52 il have to look around his course notes, I've wanted to write a compiler but found it very difficult 06:07:11 http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/dissertation/wheeler-trusting-trust-ddc.pdf 06:19:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:22:54 morning... 06:23:23 g'day 06:23:24 All Dominosa secrets have been revealed. Fizzie used trits. 06:23:49 i see you've adapted some of mine. now to look at actual code... 06:23:59 And tails kindly taught me a dc trick (obvious in retrospect, why didn't I think of that...) 06:25:59 I should've found the gcd thing 06:25:59 the >, that's clever :) 06:25:59 * oerjan cackles evilly 06:26:04 ah you missed both of those? yeah i did feel clever about those 06:26:27 but I got some value out of filter instead 06:28:15 oerjan: I also liked this adjacency test: j-i==6^(div j 6-div i 6) but it's too long. 06:28:26 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:30:30 i got a bit annoyed about the defined precedence of `elem` vs. >, could have saved the parentheses if they were just a little different 06:31:13 -!- shikhin has joined. 06:31:41 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:32:11 now I'm hoping for fizzie to translate the binary encoding into burlesque 06:32:44 heh 06:33:17 http://sprunge.us/GJcW?hs 06:33:41 ...why would he use trits anyway? 06:33:41 easier loop 06:34:08 -!- nooga has joined. 06:34:38 I really expected the decoding function to grow more when I changed the encoding to binary. 06:36:13 -!- shikhin has joined. 06:37:48 (it actually shrunk by 2 characters) 06:38:10 oh i wondered how to shorten concat.lines / filter(>' ') but if you are using filter everywhere that's not a problem 06:38:17 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:38:33 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:38:41 though that's a bit hard to measure; is the [0..29] part of the decoding function or not? 06:40:17 ooh the g(<'@') is also clever, i tried to somehow use show(i,j) or the like but kept fooling around with init and tail to remove the parens 06:40:37 _i_ should have found that, i guess :P 06:41:12 -!- shikhin has joined. 06:41:19 it's actually nice to finally have independent tricks that could be combined :) 06:41:41 yeah 06:42:34 (btw henkma hasn't showed up for this one...) 06:43:06 He didn't attempt Make 24 either. 06:43:32 maybe he prefers the non-compression tasks, or perhaps he just didn't catch up to me. 06:44:03 mhm 06:44:41 -!- Dulnes has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:45:18 (henkma has a 9986 average, I'm pretty sure he never submits solutions that score fewer than 10k points upon submission.) 06:46:09 you found several of the other tricks i thought you might miss, though. i really felt so clever about this one overall. 06:46:24 the zip[0..] one was hard. 06:46:39 well yeah that's like the basis for the algorithm 06:46:47 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:48:10 -!- shikhin has joined. 06:48:16 well, I was playing with this version at one point: http://sprunge.us/jEBB?hs 06:50:16 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:52:35 ah reverse 06:53:10 -!- shikhin has joined. 06:53:28 i tried several ways of constructing a representation of an unordered pair before i realized it was shorter to just stick both versions in literally 06:53:32 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:54:14 anyway, I had trouble making the transition from "filter index j from list" to "filter index j *and* its associated character, which we happen to know already, from a list." 06:55:30 with a *really* short fromEnum, I'd have liked to use fromEnum u*fromEnum v as an unordered pair. 06:56:03 i am pretty sure i had some versions that didn't but they were early and unsubmitted and i didn't save them 06:56:15 *didn't zip[0..] 06:56:31 actually the first submitted did zip[0..29] :P 06:56:49 pretty duh moment 06:57:04 heh 06:57:16 I wrote that, and then ... hmm ... oh... 06:57:41 But I didn't submit before I reached 175. 06:57:46 yeah 06:58:10 -!- shikhin has joined. 06:58:21 I still find it amazing how much the knowledge that things can still be improved helps (me, at least). 06:58:45 i've found it amazing how much that helps you too ;) 06:59:14 I tend to try crazier ideas. 06:59:36 Because, you know, one of them *has* to work. 07:00:38 btw would fromEnum u*fromEnum v have worked? it's not entirely correct 07:00:49 yes, I checked. 07:00:55 or maybe it is, for the character ranges that show up 07:01:10 for '0'..'4', right. 07:01:42 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:02:01 7:49 5:50 17:51 13:52 <-- except for '0', each has a unique prime factor. 07:02:17 48 49 50 51 ... hey i was about to deduce that :P 07:02:50 um i think you're off by 1 07:02:55 > sort [fromEnum a*fromEnum b | a<-['0'..'4'], b<-[a..'4']] -- what I actually did. 07:02:56 [2304,2352,2400,2401,2448,2450,2496,2499,2500,2548,2550,2600,2601,2652,2704] 07:03:10 -!- shikhin has joined. 07:04:15 hm it would work a bit longer than '0'..'4' 07:04:27 via your prime idea 07:05:14 does it work for all of '0'..'9' 07:05:20 I think so. 07:05:47 > nub $ map length $ group $ sort [fromEnum a*fromEnum b | a<-['0'..'9'], b<-[a..'9']] 07:05:48 [1] 07:06:46 * oerjan should learn not to start typing when he's already told you the idea 07:06:48 the argument gets a bit messy though; 49 and 56 rely on the former being a square. 07:07:10 not necessarily? 07:07:21 hm 07:08:14 well, the prime factor argument works by not considering prime factors 2 and 3 at all. so 56*56 and 49*48 end up in the same category. (and 49 being a square does not help...) 07:08:31 next question: does this work for arbitrary multisets :P 07:08:51 after adding some offset, yes. 07:08:57 the offset may be large, though. 07:08:58 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:09:14 i mean with 48..57 07:09:23 oh. 07:09:37 (probably not, but what's a counterexample) 07:09:45 primes > 7 always work 07:09:56 because they are only in one of the numbers 07:10:15 and then maybe some others get excluded 07:10:38 -!- shikhin has joined. 07:11:04 48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57 -> 51,52,53,54,55 are out 07:11:30 or wait 07:11:48 `factor 54 07:11:51 54: 2 3 3 3 07:11:57 SCRATCH THAT ONE 07:12:09 what are you doing 07:12:40 lifthrasiir: at the moment, wondering if products of 48..57 (i.e. ASCII values of digits) can be uniquely factored back 07:13:06 well, obviously no, but why? 07:13:24 so 48, 49, 54 and 56 use only 3 primes total, so no. 07:13:25 do you have to accept two digits (for the purpose of codegolf) and nothing else? 07:13:49 int-e: hm i guess. 07:14:38 lifthrasiir: it's about comparing unordered pair of digits, although this is actually a suboptimal solution to the golfing problem, but it's a bit mathematically interesting 07:14:43 *pairs 07:14:55 it works for pairs, btw. 07:15:23 so now it was about products of lists 07:15:53 oerjan: so if the input is "13247" and "74312" it should say "YES" while "12345" vs. "123456" should say NO etc? 07:16:22 lifthrasiir: well yeah... 07:18:45 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:19:31 -!- shikhin has joined. 07:19:52 48 = 2^4*3, 49 = 7^2, 50 = 2*5^2, 54 = 2*3^3, 56 = 2^3*7 07:20:05 oerjan: wouldn't the arithmetic progression work? 07:20:19 lifthrasiir: the what 07:20:20 > 48^18 * 49^11 == 54^6 * 56^22 07:20:21 True 07:20:27 int-e: OKAY 07:20:42 products of 2520 * digit + 1? 07:20:55 hmm, not sure 07:21:09 lifthrasiir: i'm not actually asking for variations of the problem btw 07:21:49 but yeah, there should be some offset that works, as int-e already mentioned 07:21:56 oerjan: I think that's the smallest counterexample, but I may have missed something. integer lattices are hard. 07:22:27 probably NP-hard, i should imagine 07:23:43 (4,1,0,0),(0,0,0,2),(1,0,2,0),(1,3,0,0),(3,0,0,1) 07:23:56 basis coordinates 07:24:13 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:24:31 oh right 5 is actually excluded at that point 07:25:12 *(4,1,0),(0,0,2),(1,3,0),(3,0,1) 07:25:19 -!- shikhin has joined. 07:26:15 Yes, I went with trits to have a simple "skip/+1/+6" ternary-choice for each digit. But it's very possible the thing you did in dc would be shorter. 07:26:47 -!- Patashu has joined. 07:27:36 For the curious, http://sprunge.us/hOjN is my log, though it's pretty much just about the non-cheating version. 07:28:41 Oh, the commented version is not up-to-date. Oh well. 07:29:04 Yeah, I did some serious number crunching for the dc version (just a couple of hours of CPU time, but still). 07:30:38 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:31:07 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 07:31:37 -!- shikhin has joined. 07:31:59 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:32:54 all to get from FB88?1+3%d5408*3095-*- (manual polynomial interpolation) to ?B74+I22094|3908- and then ?988-2 72889|21+ 07:35:32 I did wonder where you snatched ?988-2 72889|21+ from. 07:36:21 I got extremely lucky there :) 07:36:42 -!- shikhin has joined. 07:36:54 even so, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some shorter code for the initialisation. it's just hard to search for. 07:38:52 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:40:44 int-e: i think your counterexample is correct (and unique up to a constant multiple in the powers) 07:42:00 s/correct/minimal/ 07:47:06 that new brainfuck problem is _definitely_ a compression problem. 07:48:13 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:49:48 not a nice one either. 07:50:20 looks a bit two-pronged 07:50:57 why +++[>+++++<-]> and not >+[>-[-<]>>]>- 07:51:48 (and how does that +[>-[-<]>>] loop work anyway?) 07:51:49 -!- shikhin has joined. 07:52:37 ok, with some luck each is the lexicographically smallest program that works. 07:53:39 (modulo the usualy problems when one solves the halting problem) 07:53:44 -y 07:54:33 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:54:39 6^16 is a bit too large though :) 07:55:21 i think that +[>-[-<]>>] loop goes to the left of the tape end, no 07:55:53 [->+++++<] is lexicographically smaller than [>+++++<-], so there goes that theory. 07:56:26 they linked to the wiki article so probably just snatched them from there 07:57:04 yeah, that skips over the left end. 07:57:39 so let's assume there's a 0 there... then... 07:59:12

why +++[>+++++<-]> and not >+[>-[-<]>>]>- <-- i think "because the wiki article misses the latter" is a pretty obvious answer, there 07:59:30 and the reason it misses it is because the first is older and the latter isn't shorter 08:00:35 (not that i trust the wiki article to be comprehensive in any way beyond the old "shortest 2-cell wrapping" entries) 08:00:59 which i heard were found by exhaustive search 08:01:14 Oh, I copied it wrong. There's a > in front of the loop. 08:01:23 What are the brainfuck derivatives that are so old they are expemt from the guideline against creating brainfuck derivatives just because of their age? 08:01:45 b_jonas: Ook! Ook? Ook. 08:01:53 and some say, that's all. 08:02:11 Ook! definitely, and brainfuck definitely as well 08:02:29 brainfuck isn't a brainfuck derivative hth 08:02:47 it's the trivial derivative! 08:03:02 When was bitfuck invented? 08:03:04 um 08:03:08 I mean Boolfuck 08:03:10 not bitfuck 08:04:13 well boolfuck is exempt because it has actual theoretical interest. 08:04:22 whether or not it is old. 08:04:48 ok 08:05:38 isn't the trivial derivative zero... 08:06:23 aren't you zero 08:06:33 int-e: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Zero isn't among the most trivial :P 08:06:44 but it _is_ a brainfuck derivative 08:07:30 -!- shikhin has joined. 08:07:40 fancy 08:08:05 it seems to have the Turing-complete category, although afair that's still unproved 08:08:17 (but very likely) 08:08:20 or actually 08:08:28 a list of the first hundred thousand brainfuck programs. nifty 08:08:30 maybe it can be considered poved 08:08:42 non-halting ones. w/e 08:09:07 yeah 100000 _should_ be plenty enough to write a bf interpreter in 08:10:55 hmm 08:11:00 actually it fails to be turing-complete in the sense that it's not interpretable by a TM 08:11:20 dbfi is like 1300 bits ish sooooo yes. 08:11:21 but people seem to disagree on whether that's a requirement 08:11:50 oh so it's merely Turing-hard? 08:11:59 makes sense. 08:12:15 (by the analogy with NP-complete / NP-hard it should be, but people seem to disagree on whether that analogy holds) 08:12:53 it's a rather impractical notion 08:17:26 Zero⊕, where bit n of the sequence is the parity of the number of n-1-bit programs that halt 08:19:05 oerjan: also, does "Turing-hardness" require that we can construct a universal machine, or merely that it exists, mathematically speaking? 08:19:25 probably depends on your intuitionism 08:19:39 It's very weak. I like classicaly logic. 08:19:52 Oh, another stray "y", where do they come from? 08:19:52 -!- Dulnes has joined. 08:20:00 int-e: i'd think it requires constructability 08:20:07 int-e: or well 08:20:10 wait 08:20:11 no 08:21:00 it requires that we can translate any turing machine computation to it, constructively - but the constructive construction doesn't itself have to be known hth 08:21:58 (the unknown constructive construction needs to handle _all_ computations for a universal TM.) 08:21:59 oerjan: i don't think that's covered in 1984 hth 08:22:01 well, we can translate the TM into a universal machine (which we know exists even if we can't write it down) and some suitable input. 08:22:18 right 08:22:46 so even if we could not calculate a single bit of the "padding sequence" we'd still be in the Turing-hard domain. 08:23:00 -!- nooga has joined. 08:23:08 What does it mean when lambdabot says mueval-core: time limit exceeded 08:23:24 Dulnes: it means that mueval's time limit was exceeded. 08:23:32 Pssht 08:23:43 Your computation took too long! 08:23:53 >_> 08:24:09 This may happen due to circumstances unrelated to your code, like the server starting to swap heavily. 08:24:18 > 1 08:24:20 1 08:24:45 [wiki] [[Zero]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41272&oldid=41010 * Oerjan * (+420) /* Computational class */ 08:25:00 So, there's this tacit assumption that if a computation model is at least Turing-complete, you can construct a machine that comes preloaded with the input to any other machine 08:25:02 I need to make a language that is like the alphabet but uses ~=_<>{ charactors as letters and numberz 08:25:11 do you really 08:25:24 ~=_<>{}[]|$€£¥¢￦§^`°¿¡\«»®© 08:25:27 But if you have a language that explicitly requires its own halting sequence to work, that may not be possible 08:25:48 * Dulnes flys into space 08:26:16 Jafet: stop diagonalizing, it makes brains explode. 08:26:56 though things may be fine for languages that accept the empty program 08:27:26 Mmm that would be hard if i had to use {} [] as letter\number sequence what would i use as a bracket? 08:27:26 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:27:42 Maybe regular letters 08:27:53 In other words, if your definition of Turing-completeness requires the translation itself to be computable 08:28:03 (by a Turing machine, I suppose) 08:28:08 Jafet: it's not that tacit, you can prove it i should think 08:28:35 Jafet: my definition does 08:28:45 Well if i compare ~ to q its the same in my perspective 08:28:52 You might run into a bit in the Zero sequence that corresponds to an unprovable theorem 08:29:00 = - w 08:29:05 And so on 08:29:07 Jafet: however my definition includes the input in what needs to be translated 08:29:32 Jafet: and _also_ allows using the input of the target, which is essential for Zero. 08:30:18 (my definition also allows a final translation of output at the end) 08:30:32 Ive got it! 08:30:45 * Dulnes flys back into space 08:31:25 something like zero, but oriented so that you can program around unprovable bits, to some extent. an encoding of something more robust than brainfuck probably. 08:31:48 L = Bracket, [ = letter 08:31:57 That definition makes sense (eg. for fractran) but I'm not sure if just using it to translate every TM to one universal interpreter in the target language is in the right spirit 08:32:03 Dulnes: btw you realize that any language which is _solely_ about using cryptic syntax is uninteresting to nearly every regular in this channel? 08:32:22 Quiet you 08:32:39 something where even though the sequence is computable the language is less ambiguously TC 08:32:52 Im trying to occupy space 08:34:32 re. space, IRC is like being on a bus with three hundred people 08:34:33 {]} £[<>{ |_<€]® = you dirty person 08:35:02 I liked cramped quarters 08:35:15 Like* 08:35:36 Sooooooon ill just be typing in wingdings 08:35:58