< 1417393005 810604 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1417394154 200689 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1417396047 287440 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417396324 253336 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1417396481 357775 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-btvkuykgzlvtyawi QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1417396776 899382 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I a bad person for recommending Node.JS to someone trying to build a chat? It makes the most sense to me... < 1417396835 198293 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1417397161 978853 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07GridScript14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41267&oldid=41256 5* 03SuperJedi224 5* (+64) 10 < 1417397183 568631 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07GridScript14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41268&oldid=41267 5* 03SuperJedi224 5* (+3) 10/* Command Summary */ < 1417397489 971504 :EisenHerz!~Sauvin@about/linux/staff/sauvin NICK :Sauvin < 1417398374 615418 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Popular problem14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41269&oldid=30415 5* 03122.102.45.251 5* (+266) 10 < 1417398505 25069 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1417398655 829593 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Popular problem14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41270&oldid=41269 5* 03Orenwatson 5* (-266) 10Undo revision 41269 by [[Special:Contributions/122.102.45.251|122.102.45.251]] ([[User talk:122.102.45.251|talk]]) spam < 1417398784 267909 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :seo melbourne? why melbourne < 1417398790 999664 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: captcha got solved < 1417398802 607559 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it was just a human though < 1417398840 917029 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is seo even a real thing anymore < 1417398843 153892 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1417398898 438089 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it just refer to making the pages bot-readable? < 1417399115 283708 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOLY SH%$$%@%$ < 1417399135 398089 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got a email back from the maker of MNNBFSL < 1417399157 379813 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :He wrote in English < 1417399163 816056 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thank you for writing an article of MNNBFSL." < 1417399164 34419 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :MNNBFSL? < 1417399177 429316 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I read http://esolangs.org/wiki/MNNBFSL ." < 1417399187 799386 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In this artcile, "It appears to have been ... in late August 2014." < 1417399189 146941 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is invented in July. < 1417399205 59547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :japanese people found to know english, world shocked :p < 1417399215 388653 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"publicized in August 2014"? < 1417399228 493390 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MNNBFSL is inspired by Brainfuck and Forth. Forth can manipulate return stack. Forth programmers can write puzzle like program by this feature." < 1417399266 222469 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I think it is interesting, so I want to create esoteric language that can manipulate return stack." < 1417399274 269120 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thanks" < 1417399282 720111 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: they *do* surely know English, they just don't write in it normally :p < 1417399291 350857 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is very good English for a Japanese person. < 1417399299 791251 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my experience anyway < 1417399312 468279 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they get taught english y'know < 1417399328 613168 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do some 2 billion people around the world < 1417399331 614490 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In high school, but that's like I'm supposed to knwo French < 1417399346 9893 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i can't speak a word < 1417399356 625091 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :japanese people have more incentive to learn english than you do to learn french, if you're not canadian < 1417399359 540535 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: yeah, that's my point < 1417399367 554599 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I can barely remember rendezvous is a correct spelling < 1417399374 43207 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm canadian but i'm from Ontario < 1417399405 236391 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that canada, the other one < 1417399412 39288 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: well, foreign language classes in the english world are basically hobbies < 1417399437 763703 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and foreign language classes in the non-english world are basically for survivals < 1417399440 767323 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seriously.) < 1417399442 196849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :knowing english is more of a necessity... < 1417399455 397136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, treated as one by education systems) < 1417399632 414460 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even without school-taught english, plenty of non-english-speaking countries consume lots of english media and pick it up that way < 1417399639 645719 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least for countries that don't dub everything they import < 1417399698 591428 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: btw, you know anarchy golf (where the author of MNNBFSL, yshl, participates) is a japanese site with many japanese players, right? :) < 1417399702 462325 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 's pronounciation was terrible initially from having picked up english from pokemon and online forums < 1417399742 436215 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :japanese people put subtitles in Japanese on everything < 1417399817 212248 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION , when he was in japan, saw a lot of badly used English < 1417399873 906284 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :We sub movies/TV series as well, though games remain untranslated < 1417399874 744928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is relevant that avoiding english while being a programmer who knows a lot of languages etc. is incredibly difficult... < 1417399887 800201 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07MNNBFSL14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41271&oldid=41229 5* 03Orenwatson 5* (+37) 10updtaed with info from inventor < 1417399904 121398 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so you'd expect programmers to generally have a decent grasp of english even regardless of the general statistics) < 1417399941 763397 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah becuase programming languages and libraries are based on english keywords < 1417399958 74953 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with very few exceptions) < 1417399963 884206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, moreso documentation < 1417399968 839156 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes < 1417399991 508386 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :("def" and "int" aren't english words, so just treating keywords as opaque wouldn't be too much of an obstacle) < 1417400007 427663 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :drawtriangle < 1417400023 444062 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like that < 1417400080 259720 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah a lot of documentation doesn't bother having any other languages. < 1417400083 448006 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how the full japanese name of the language is light novel title length. < 1417400100 163608 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the Japanese way < 1417400111 228971 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :poketto monsuta! pokemon! < 1417400207 881621 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it does? < 1417400215 811432 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does what? < 1417400244 677530 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :The full japanese name of the language < 1417400244 858349 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :まだ名前のないBF風スタック言語 < 1417400253 128533 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, MNNBFSL < 1417400260 724403 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed you were talking about Japanese for some reason < 1417400374 202234 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah in Japanese the language is just called 日本語 "nihongo" < 1417400390 389468 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not light novel title length < 1417400392 563873 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it translates as "My Little Sister Forced Me To Create A Brainfuck Derivative, And Now The Whole School Is Laughing At Me!" < 1417400401 570195 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolololol < 1417400404 718217 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :WWWWWWW < 1417400411 459331 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wow ahahaha < 1417400422 733541 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it doesn't but it should) < 1417400723 197469 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :俺の妹はBF元着く言語を無理矢理着かせた! < 1417400742 874861 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My little sister forced me to make a BF derivative < 1417400836 354562 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :今、学校のみんなが俺を笑う! < 1417400853 205459 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, eveyone at school is laughing at me! < 1417400859 298418 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go < 1417400864 628323 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :please don't make this language < 1417400875 58450 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :lololol < 1417400888 423644 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :trolololol.gif < 1417400919 522581 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know IRC doesn't support images, right < 1417400928 214281 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some web clients do < 1417400945 338072 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but when you see the name of the image you know what image it is < 1417400975 128097 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like doge.jpeg < 1417400990 912492 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orebrefa < 1417400993 88422 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can actually allude to things without adding file extensions < 1417401016 751186 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oreimo indeed is a crazy anime. < 1417401035 589097 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its funnier when it's ohmaigaa.webm < 1417401084 951506 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wilhelmscream.mp3 < 1417401088 646281 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favourite meme is rotten_dog.tiff.shar.bz2 < 1417401150 603070 :dianne_!~diannes@unaffiliated/dianne PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that one a bit old by now < 1417401152 249274 :dianne_!~diannes@unaffiliated/dianne NICK :dianne < 1417401155 45530 :dianne!~diannes@unaffiliated/dianne PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's even decomposing < 1417401171 639548 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :swap.avi < 1417401189 231611 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello.jpg < 1417401193 911011 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :PKZIP.EXE < 1417401250 172439 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :onestop.mid < 1417401283 784667 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember C:\Windows\media? < 1417401311 511963 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :dan dadan dan dan daaaaan < 1417401387 773255 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :2girls1cup.mp4 < 1417401420 37790 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :trolololol.mp3 < 1417401461 873997 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yerawizardharry.avi < 1417401462 886981 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C:\con\con < 1417401525 145745 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad this channel is getting even worse :p < 1417401563 874243 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcourse.wav < 1417401583 365520 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sad this channel is getting even worse :( < 1417401622 165169 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :allthewhosdowninwhovillecryboohoo.webm < 1417401682 369201 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay this got old like five minutes ago < 1417401682 560336 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm mad this channel is getting even worse >:( < 1417401700 764881 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :tomeitwastuesday.wmv < 1417401701 37658 :dianne!~diannes@unaffiliated/dianne PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm dianne < 1417401709 806277 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi dianne < 1417401716 353444 :dianne!~diannes@unaffiliated/dianne PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1417401783 944885 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm Taneb < 1417401797 336648 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes I'm also Nathan < 1417401804 70140 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although not on IRC < 1417401810 510871 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Nathan < 1417401812 140415 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nathan? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1417402581 605388 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417402800 204527 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417402847 545554 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1417404876 213094 :CrazyM4n!~spng453@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1417404877 364213 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.65.136 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417405502 674878 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1417405633 507155 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can a Pokemon card puzzle possibly be made up that the goal is for the players to cooperate to end the game as quickly as possible (it doesn't matter who wins or if it would end in a draw)? There may be many other conditions to be possible too < 1417405704 276102 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1417405711 234047 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could see it < 1417405862 503791 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1417406140 164031 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/charcole/Z3 < 1417407102 474196 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I concede < 1417407119 164161 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conceding isn't allowed of course < 1417407369 824472 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yes, such a puzzle could possibly be made up. < 1417407706 843955 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude NICK :GeekZzZzZ < 1417407709 643397 :GeekZzZzZ!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude NICK :GeekZzZzZz < 1417407868 834873 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how to make it good though? < 1417408297 526926 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-afncznribaukxhiv JOIN :#esoteric < 1417408311 202841 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-afncznribaukxhiv PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm not much discussed < 1417408834 524903 :MoALTz_!~no@user-164-126-229-18.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1417408853 536948 :GeekZzZzZz!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1417409023 757498 :MoALTz!~no@user-164-126-229-18.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1417409117 461658 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417409197 622220 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.65.136 QUIT :Quit: Quit < 1417409301 220583 :CrazyM4n!~spng453@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1417409377 422392 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1417409548 54034 :dianne!~diannes@unaffiliated/dianne PART :#esoteric < 1417411409 303635 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slist supdate < 1417411411 144770 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :slist supdate: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot < 1417411741 70746 :ZombieAlive!~N3cr0naV@unaffiliated/zombiealive QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1417412265 351206 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid JOIN :#esoteric < 1417412267 802615 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1417412386 38273 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa https://github.com/charcole/Z3 < 1417412458 840194 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :#haskell is such a disaster < 1417412575 231000 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting newsham < 1417412617 41230 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@newsham I was reading alangsec article an dyou were mentioned < 1417412617 184312 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1417412658 368554 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1417412663 50118 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which article? < 1417412709 318623 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about making an esolang page on ROP, this is one thing i read http://langsec.org/papers/Bratus.pdf < 1417412716 946422 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think about such an article? < 1417412771 125205 :ZombieAlive!~N3cr0naV@unaffiliated/zombiealive JOIN :#esoteric < 1417412837 736999 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the topic is interesting, though i'm not sure if looking at them through the lense of "weird machiens" is all that enlightening... < 1417412846 824636 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess if thats your passion, its a valid way of looking at it.. < 1417412870 725587 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best article is geometry of flesh on the bone < 1417412871 633496 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats a pretty flattering mention of my name.. i like it.. < 1417412913 878600 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone seems to be trying to be really deep and philosophical and clever about it, but its just understanding the computer and making it do stuff... < 1417412946 424238 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think its that great of a leap of faith to say that if you control the stack frame of a program you basically control the control flow and the program < 1417412973 378455 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :running a program using page faults is a little more clever.. < 1417413041 227297 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i nop-oriented programming < 1417413173 79425 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newsham, yeah some of the langsec stuff I see is slightly askew, but seeing security people finally say that you shosuld be recognizing languages rather than regex blacklighting 'bad' stuff makes me really happy < 1417413194 935764 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blacklisting* < 1417413244 719520 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :security professionals should be able to tell you that whitelisting is better than blacklisting anyway :) < 1417413250 791838 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and regexps arent often the best tool < 1417413312 56029 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think ROP is a cool esolang < 1417413316 290846 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and deserves a place on the wiki, no? < 1417413343 285085 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yah, rop is kinda a neat esolang < 1417413353 410030 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, family of esolangs really < 1417413371 748885 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :) < 1417413425 678876 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever see massalin's superoptimizer paper? < 1417413448 82198 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, ill have a look now < 1417413448 282687 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :even cooler, i think :) < 1417413453 557635 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs343/resources/cs343-annot-superopt.pdf < 1417413458 680443 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1417413511 652460 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he doesn't qualify "finds shorted program that computes a given function" with any caveats lol < 1417413527 911857 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be neat "growing" programs organically (ie. search/annealing/genetic prog) and then trying to analyze them < 1417413563 537188 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet sooner or later you'd find much cooler things than rop going on < 1417413931 304042 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs343/ < 1417413956 833273 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a 'trusting trust' compiler? < 1417413993 243798 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dawson engler is godlike < 1417414012 805425 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :il have to look around his course notes, I've wanted to write a compiler but found it very difficult < 1417414031 753051 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/dissertation/wheeler-trusting-trust-ddc.pdf < 1417414751 813877 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1417414974 399219 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :morning... < 1417415003 361514 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :g'day < 1417415004 471031 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :All Dominosa secrets have been revealed. Fizzie used trits. < 1417415029 79736 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see you've adapted some of mine. now to look at actual code... < 1417415039 110300 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And tails kindly taught me a dc trick (obvious in retrospect, why didn't I think of that...) < 1417415159 598328 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should've found the gcd thing < 1417415159 778380 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the >, that's clever :) < 1417415159 778537 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly < 1417415164 234381 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah you missed both of those? yeah i did feel clever about those < 1417415187 26852 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I got some value out of filter instead < 1417415295 444735 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I also liked this adjacency test: j-i==6^(div j 6-div i 6) but it's too long. < 1417415306 804588 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1417415430 190108 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got a bit annoyed about the defined precedence of `elem` vs. >, could have saved the parentheses if they were just a little different < 1417415473 577013 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417415501 832101 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417415531 916440 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm hoping for fizzie to translate the binary encoding into burlesque < 1417415564 969985 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1417415597 636573 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/GJcW?hs < 1417415621 525795 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...why would he use trits anyway? < 1417415621 669077 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :easier loop < 1417415648 265696 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417415678 106319 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really expected the decoding function to grow more when I changed the encoding to binary. < 1417415773 186354 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417415868 402214 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it actually shrunk by 2 characters) < 1417415890 543617 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i wondered how to shorten concat.lines / filter(>' ') but if you are using filter everywhere that's not a problem < 1417415897 791315 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417415913 208430 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1417415921 730300 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :though that's a bit hard to measure; is the [0..29] part of the decoding function or not? < 1417416017 356139 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh the g(<'@') is also clever, i tried to somehow use show(i,j) or the like but kept fooling around with init and tail to remove the parens < 1417416037 682401 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :_i_ should have found that, i guess :P < 1417416072 827173 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417416079 4703 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually nice to finally have independent tricks that could be combined :) < 1417416101 194897 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1417416154 96917 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw henkma hasn't showed up for this one...) < 1417416186 466336 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :He didn't attempt Make 24 either. < 1417416212 770958 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he prefers the non-compression tasks, or perhaps he just didn't catch up to me. < 1417416243 725811 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1417416281 715375 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-afncznribaukxhiv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1417416318 92665 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(henkma has a 9986 average, I'm pretty sure he never submits solutions that score fewer than 10k points upon submission.) < 1417416369 829970 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you found several of the other tricks i thought you might miss, though. i really felt so clever about this one overall. < 1417416384 317594 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the zip[0..] one was hard. < 1417416399 772947 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah that's like the basis for the algorithm < 1417416407 133586 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417416490 230477 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417416496 10565 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I was playing with this version at one point: http://sprunge.us/jEBB?hs < 1417416616 703495 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417416755 338007 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah reverse < 1417416790 598014 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417416808 409330 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried several ways of constructing a representation of an unordered pair before i realized it was shorter to just stick both versions in literally < 1417416812 534120 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417416854 407060 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I had trouble making the transition from "filter index j from list" to "filter index j *and* its associated character, which we happen to know already, from a list." < 1417416930 422447 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a *really* short fromEnum, I'd have liked to use fromEnum u*fromEnum v as an unordered pair. < 1417416963 703782 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am pretty sure i had some versions that didn't but they were early and unsubmitted and i didn't save them < 1417416975 520556 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*didn't zip[0..] < 1417416991 93617 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the first submitted did zip[0..29] :P < 1417417009 774294 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty duh moment < 1417417024 467683 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1417417036 503890 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote that, and then ... hmm ... oh... < 1417417061 181723 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I didn't submit before I reached 175. < 1417417066 535014 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1417417090 637726 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417417101 869351 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still find it amazing how much the knowledge that things can still be improved helps (me, at least). < 1417417125 29566 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've found it amazing how much that helps you too ;) < 1417417154 669800 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to try crazier ideas. < 1417417176 44577 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because, you know, one of them *has* to work. < 1417417238 415995 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw would fromEnum u*fromEnum v have worked? it's not entirely correct < 1417417249 211196 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I checked. < 1417417255 941856 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it is, for the character ranges that show up < 1417417270 483338 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :for '0'..'4', right. < 1417417302 192257 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417417321 542020 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :7:49 5:50 17:51 13:52 <-- except for '0', each has a unique prime factor. < 1417417337 910735 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :48 49 50 51 ... hey i was about to deduce that :P < 1417417370 754974 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i think you're off by 1 < 1417417375 761176 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> sort [fromEnum a*fromEnum b | a<-['0'..'4'], b<-[a..'4']] -- what I actually did. < 1417417376 892462 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : [2304,2352,2400,2401,2448,2450,2496,2499,2500,2548,2550,2600,2601,2652,2704] < 1417417390 699385 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417417455 276288 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it would work a bit longer than '0'..'4' < 1417417467 505253 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :via your prime idea < 1417417514 920338 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it work for all of '0'..'9' < 1417417520 396821 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so. < 1417417547 149135 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> nub $ map length $ group $ sort [fromEnum a*fromEnum b | a<-['0'..'9'], b<-[a..'9']] < 1417417548 320891 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1] < 1417417606 165521 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should learn not to start typing when he's already told you the idea < 1417417608 260063 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the argument gets a bit messy though; 49 and 56 rely on the former being a square. < 1417417630 872724 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not necessarily? < 1417417641 998367 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1417417694 751902 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the prime factor argument works by not considering prime factors 2 and 3 at all. so 56*56 and 49*48 end up in the same category. (and 49 being a square does not help...) < 1417417711 335759 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :next question: does this work for arbitrary multisets :P < 1417417731 39148 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :after adding some offset, yes. < 1417417737 838731 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the offset may be large, though. < 1417417738 499673 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417417754 81123 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean with 48..57 < 1417417763 195102 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1417417777 253740 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably not, but what's a counterexample) < 1417417785 451096 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :primes > 7 always work < 1417417796 395951 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they are only in one of the numbers < 1417417815 396378 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then maybe some others get excluded < 1417417838 186867 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417417864 311431 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57 -> 51,52,53,54,55 are out < 1417417890 31069 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1417417908 294282 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`factor 54 < 1417417911 291645 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :54: 2 3 3 3 < 1417417917 866338 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCRATCH THAT ONE < 1417417929 406135 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you doing < 1417417960 782020 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: at the moment, wondering if products of 48..57 (i.e. ASCII values of digits) can be uniquely factored back < 1417417986 255880 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, obviously no, but why? < 1417418004 892268 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 48, 49, 54 and 56 use only 3 primes total, so no. < 1417418005 132935 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have to accept two digits (for the purpose of codegolf) and nothing else? < 1417418029 655768 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hm i guess. < 1417418078 263061 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: it's about comparing unordered pair of digits, although this is actually a suboptimal solution to the golfing problem, but it's a bit mathematically interesting < 1417418083 429069 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pairs < 1417418095 894094 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works for pairs, btw. < 1417418123 713018 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now it was about products of lists < 1417418153 147032 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so if the input is "13247" and "74312" it should say "YES" while "12345" vs. "123456" should say NO etc? < 1417418182 180392 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: well yeah... < 1417418325 262090 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417418371 959864 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417418392 661828 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :48 = 2^4*3, 49 = 7^2, 50 = 2*5^2, 54 = 2*3^3, 56 = 2^3*7 < 1417418405 444460 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wouldn't the arithmetic progression work? < 1417418419 869574 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: the what < 1417418420 542824 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 48^18 * 49^11 == 54^6 * 56^22 < 1417418421 930226 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : True < 1417418427 487333 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: OKAY < 1417418442 965365 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :products of 2520 * digit + 1? < 1417418455 795689 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, not sure < 1417418469 345383 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: i'm not actually asking for variations of the problem btw < 1417418509 23588 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, there should be some offset that works, as int-e already mentioned < 1417418516 340814 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think that's the smallest counterexample, but I may have missed something. integer lattices are hard. < 1417418547 773701 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably NP-hard, i should imagine < 1417418623 629255 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4,1,0,0),(0,0,0,2),(1,0,2,0),(1,3,0,0),(3,0,0,1) < 1417418636 659558 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :basis coordinates < 1417418653 602231 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417418671 500282 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right 5 is actually excluded at that point < 1417418712 216674 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*(4,1,0),(0,0,2),(1,3,0),(3,0,1) < 1417418719 936447 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417418775 617049 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I went with trits to have a simple "skip/+1/+6" ternary-choice for each digit. But it's very possible the thing you did in dc would be shorter. < 1417418807 631170 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1417418856 399532 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the curious, http://sprunge.us/hOjN is my log, though it's pretty much just about the non-cheating version. < 1417418921 294571 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the commented version is not up-to-date. Oh well. < 1417418944 839492 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I did some serious number crunching for the dc version (just a couple of hours of CPU time, but still). < 1417419038 30610 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417419067 718916 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDream < 1417419097 223453 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417419119 193314 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417419174 780207 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :all to get from FB88?1+3%d5408*3095-*- (manual polynomial interpolation) to ?B74+I22094|3908- and then ?988-2 72889|21+ < 1417419332 120541 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did wonder where you snatched ?988-2 72889|21+ from. < 1417419381 484386 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got extremely lucky there :) < 1417419402 607342 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417419414 415532 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :even so, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some shorter code for the initialisation. it's just hard to search for. < 1417419532 528271 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417419644 899056 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i think your counterexample is correct (and unique up to a constant multiple in the powers) < 1417419720 477085 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/correct/minimal/ < 1417420026 844782 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that new brainfuck problem is _definitely_ a compression problem. < 1417420093 407408 :MoALTz_!~no@user-164-126-229-18.play-internet.pl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1417420188 824484 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a nice one either. < 1417420220 272805 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks a bit two-pronged < 1417420257 48350 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :why +++[>+++++<-]> and not >+[>-[-<]>>]>- < 1417420308 94700 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and how does that +[>-[-<]>>] loop work anyway?) < 1417420309 232493 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417420357 267781 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, with some luck each is the lexicographically smallest program that works. < 1417420419 96667 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(modulo the usualy problems when one solves the halting problem) < 1417420424 826418 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :-y < 1417420473 681140 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417420479 708916 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :6^16 is a bit too large though :) < 1417420521 509129 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that +[>-[-<]>>] loop goes to the left of the tape end, no < 1417420553 974123 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :[->+++++<] is lexicographically smaller than [>+++++<-], so there goes that theory. < 1417420586 55287 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they linked to the wiki article so probably just snatched them from there < 1417420624 379799 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that skips over the left end. < 1417420659 563813 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so let's assume there's a 0 there... then... < 1417420752 248640 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : why +++[>+++++<-]> and not >+[>-[-<]>>]>- <-- i think "because the wiki article misses the latter" is a pretty obvious answer, there < 1417420770 332779 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reason it misses it is because the first is older and the latter isn't shorter < 1417420835 622120 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that i trust the wiki article to be comprehensive in any way beyond the old "shortest 2-cell wrapping" entries) < 1417420859 384721 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i heard were found by exhaustive search < 1417420874 266522 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I copied it wrong. There's a > in front of the loop. < 1417420883 211952 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the brainfuck derivatives that are so old they are expemt from the guideline against creating brainfuck derivatives just because of their age? < 1417420905 424938 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Ook! Ook? Ook. < 1417420913 615447 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some say, that's all. < 1417420931 490582 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ook! definitely, and brainfuck definitely as well < 1417420949 683641 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck isn't a brainfuck derivative hth < 1417420967 61434 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the trivial derivative! < 1417420982 899485 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :When was bitfuck invented? < 1417420984 550355 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1417420988 22332 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean Boolfuck < 1417420990 449976 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bitfuck < 1417421053 815298 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well boolfuck is exempt because it has actual theoretical interest. < 1417421062 464441 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether or not it is old. < 1417421088 775237 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1417421138 831111 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the trivial derivative zero... < 1417421183 530348 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't you zero < 1417421193 597013 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Zero isn't among the most trivial :P < 1417421204 221061 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it _is_ a brainfuck derivative < 1417421250 675123 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417421260 264913 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy < 1417421285 206691 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to have the Turing-complete category, although afair that's still unproved < 1417421297 9518 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but very likely) < 1417421300 691198 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or actually < 1417421308 881132 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a list of the first hundred thousand brainfuck programs. nifty < 1417421310 530885 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it can be considered poved < 1417421322 640488 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-halting ones. w/e < 1417421347 727947 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah 100000 _should_ be plenty enough to write a bf interpreter in < 1417421455 71938 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1417421460 24469 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it fails to be turing-complete in the sense that it's not interpretable by a TM < 1417421480 407861 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbfi is like 1300 bits ish sooooo yes. < 1417421481 20485 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but people seem to disagree on whether that's a requirement < 1417421510 62106 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so it's merely Turing-hard? < 1417421519 757607 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense. < 1417421535 180308 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by the analogy with NP-complete / NP-hard it should be, but people seem to disagree on whether that analogy holds) < 1417421573 934420 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a rather impractical notion < 1417421846 979016 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zero⊕, where bit n of the sequence is the parity of the number of n-1-bit programs that halt < 1417421945 841844 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: also, does "Turing-hardness" require that we can construct a universal machine, or merely that it exists, mathematically speaking? < 1417421965 522258 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably depends on your intuitionism < 1417421979 808688 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's very weak. I like classicaly logic. < 1417421992 117484 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, another stray "y", where do they come from? < 1417421992 778202 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo JOIN :#esoteric < 1417422000 70857 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i'd think it requires constructability < 1417422007 392141 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: or well < 1417422010 78604 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1417422011 403006 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1417422060 606227 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it requires that we can translate any turing machine computation to it, constructively - but the constructive construction doesn't itself have to be known hth < 1417422118 218631 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the unknown constructive construction needs to handle _all_ computations for a universal TM.) < 1417422119 818365 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i don't think that's covered in 1984 hth < 1417422121 5 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we can translate the TM into a universal machine (which we know exists even if we can't write it down) and some suitable input. < 1417422138 392956 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1417422166 189365 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so even if we could not calculate a single bit of the "padding sequence" we'd still be in the Turing-hard domain. < 1417422180 916096 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417422188 43999 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it mean when lambdabot says mueval-core: time limit exceeded < 1417422204 190322 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dulnes: it means that mueval's time limit was exceeded. < 1417422212 321604 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pssht < 1417422223 409260 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your computation took too long! < 1417422233 246699 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1417422249 310636 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :This may happen due to circumstances unrelated to your code, like the server starting to swap heavily. < 1417422258 901622 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1 < 1417422260 363634 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 < 1417422285 770877 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Zero14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41272&oldid=41010 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+420) 10/* Computational class */ < 1417422300 841703 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, there's this tacit assumption that if a computation model is at least Turing-complete, you can construct a machine that comes preloaded with the input to any other machine < 1417422302 127635 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to make a language that is like the alphabet but uses ~=_<>{ charactors as letters and numberz < 1417422311 185915 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you really < 1417422324 602436 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :~=_<>{}[]|$€£¥¢₩§^`°¿¡\«»®© < 1417422327 83095 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you have a language that explicitly requires its own halting sequence to work, that may not be possible < 1417422348 924344 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION flys into space < 1417422376 403986 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: stop diagonalizing, it makes brains explode. < 1417422416 612649 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :though things may be fine for languages that accept the empty program < 1417422446 565786 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm that would be hard if i had to use {} [] as letter\number sequence what would i use as a bracket? < 1417422446 915484 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1417422462 203027 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe regular letters < 1417422473 798720 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other words, if your definition of Turing-completeness requires the translation itself to be computable < 1417422483 406569 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by a Turing machine, I suppose) < 1417422488 3471 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: it's not that tacit, you can prove it i should think < 1417422515 752843 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: my definition does < 1417422525 590643 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well if i compare ~ to q its the same in my perspective < 1417422532 79845 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might run into a bit in the Zero sequence that corresponds to an unprovable theorem < 1417422540 288079 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric := - w < 1417422545 889426 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so on < 1417422547 777295 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: however my definition includes the input in what needs to be translated < 1417422572 92177 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: and _also_ allows using the input of the target, which is essential for Zero. < 1417422618 145917 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my definition also allows a final translation of output at the end) < 1417422632 412784 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ive got it! < 1417422645 73942 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION flys back into space < 1417422685 966350 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like zero, but oriented so that you can program around unprovable bits, to some extent. an encoding of something more robust than brainfuck probably. < 1417422708 363069 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :L = Bracket, [ = letter < 1417422717 254902 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :That definition makes sense (eg. for fractran) but I'm not sure if just using it to translate every TM to one universal interpreter in the target language is in the right spirit < 1417422723 424605 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dulnes: btw you realize that any language which is _solely_ about using cryptic syntax is uninteresting to nearly every regular in this channel? < 1417422742 275449 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quiet you < 1417422759 88537 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :something where even though the sequence is computable the language is less ambiguously TC < 1417422772 481392 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Im trying to occupy space < 1417422872 993523 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :re. space, IRC is like being on a bus with three hundred people < 1417422873 926586 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :{]} £[<>{ |_<€]® = you dirty person < 1417422902 85359 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :I liked cramped quarters < 1417422915 988282 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like* < 1417422936 654781 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sooooooon ill just be typing in wingdings < 1417422958 58416 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is that wingdings 2 - 3 idk < 1417422963 156535 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: we have invented the terminology "BF-complete" for languages that need to be able to deal with somewhat reasonable I/O < 1417423042 384155 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :§_°°] =]<°£ < 1417423051 281355 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think im going insane < 1417423069 422198 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should go lie down a bit hth < 1417423076 560212 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe < 1417423096 1402 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ive been scrolling to long < 1417423122 413060 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :If i teach my stuff the stuff i can make the stuff < 1417423139 602050 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1417423324 627151 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can just imagine what it will look like when im done :0 < 1417423393 597046 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION dies of cafine over dose < 1417423506 95600 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Pikalang14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41273 5* 03Grotr 5* (+1743) 10Initial commit < 1417423560 935230 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41274&oldid=41171 5* 03Grotr 5* (+15) 10/* Brainfuck derivatives */ add Pikalang < 1417424184 588799 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was Alan himself Turing complete? < 1417424219 526002 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely turing < 1417424270 520470 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: i've been wondering before whether there are rule 110 metacells of some kind < 1417424299 280381 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a CA simulator to prepare to search for things that might help finding metacells < 1417424342 521330 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, GG got published early today < 1417424354 908060 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :priorities, priorities, gotta have them straight. < 1417424363 874506 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's complications, though, because the max speeds of transmission leftwards and rightwards are different in "ether" than in a zero background < 1417424378 821769 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so rule 110 does not move to the right? < 1417424387 300373 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not through zeros, no < 1417424395 19504 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but through ether it does < 1417424404 293639 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ether = 1? < 1417424410 97455 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :leftwards, it moves faster through zeros < 1417424435 585512 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, ether is that special pattern that tends to quickly show up from random starting conditions < 1417424445 452402 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh interesting < 1417424462 923526 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bd/CA_rule110.png would that be the majority of stuff here < 1417424473 181061 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably a big part of what makes rule 110 so intricate < 1417424512 210598 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: yes, the "background" so to speak < 1417424539 259356 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes this metacell stuff seem a lot harder < 1417424554 839965 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1417424573 616659 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you might be able to make a metacell that moves at a different speed < 1417424601 924097 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the input pattern would have to be encoded at a slope? < 1417424607 339836 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, as i've mentioned before, with "relativistic" speed - where you don't translate time to time < 1417424625 724789 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and possibly even with time sloped < 1417424972 569861 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :## ### # in rule 30 this repeats < 1417424981 649687 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got it from wiki < 1417424986 7412 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: in fact that png shows the phenomenon where any disturbance moving leftward through zeros turns into a pattern of ether possibly with "gliders" in it < 1417425017 435228 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a spaceship too? < 1417425020 592 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that thing going down < 1417425021 361735 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :rule 30 is that other complicated rule iirc, but much harder to do anything with because it's reversible < 1417425039 74750 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: well for rule 110 "glider" is the term for spaceship < 1417425041 20903 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rule30 would have to encode other reversible rules only < 1417425047 499617 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :been used in papers and stuff < 1417425048 509543 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :limiting search that way might be helpful < 1417425053 270412 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1417425070 606770 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i havent look at any research on 1D CAs < 1417425078 529042 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if its worth it to do that < 1417425084 510161 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google rule 110 gliders < 1417425092 352159 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what < 1417425099 569523 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plugin `search' failed with: <> < 1417425103 315758 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google rule 110 gliders < 1417425108 1477 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: what now < 1417425118 330613 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plugin `search' failed with: <> < 1417425127 955786 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe Google is down. < 1417425129 970361 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol does research on 1D CAs I think < 1417425152 224211 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: the top google hit for that gives a paper with lots of rule 110 glider and repeating patterns < 1417425160 285831 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least it's top for me) < 1417425173 382813 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok but im not especally interested in rule 110 < 1417425178 731682 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i wil have a look at this < 1417425199 229587 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: ok, rule 110 is like the simplest rule that has gliders though. < 1417425214 346072 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well useful ones, anyway < 1417425442 201200 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rule 110 - International Center of Unconventional Computing < 1417425523 643442 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Adamatzky < 1417425555 560962 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He has used slime moulds to plan potential routes for roadway systems < 1417425582 375167 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He has also shown that the billiard balls in billiard-ball computers may be replaced by soldier crabs < 1417425592 584821 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mictyris_guinotae#Crab_computing < 1417425674 408330 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a man after our heart < 1417425716 13850 :dts!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode JOIN :#esoteric < 1417426075 820677 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: We'd better wear some armor, then. < 1417426179 311696 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1417426303 877231 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely assumes he's missing a pun < 1417426333 846293 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_code these codes look similar to an instruction set < 1417426446 931719 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, I mean, you want to be a bit wary if someone's after your heart. You will need it to live, after all. < 1417426464 241794 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1417426931 369374 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't know. < 1417427069 306434 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google what now < 1417427069 894395 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3BI9AspYc < 1417427077 968533 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to have fixed itself < 1417427365 158959 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : okay this got old like five minutes ago <-- it got old even while browsing it in the logs hth < 1417428254 327561 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw http://oerjan.nvg.org/r110.txt is an old file i made. a bit down in it is a list of all the (6, iiuc my own notes) limiting ways for a disturbance to travel leftward into zeros. < 1417428351 795637 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of them have the additional gliders moving at -1/2, the same as the maximal speed in ether, which means you can treat them as essentially growing a leftward infinite ether in a way that nothing can catch up with. < 1417428482 357831 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417428529 588236 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :is rule 110 known to be TC against a zero background? < 1417428541 409577 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i know of. < 1417428554 941580 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is part of what made me do this classification < 1417428560 576182 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't really like that ether business very much) < 1417428578 381093 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i don't think it's known to be TC against an ether background either < 1417428595 850232 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you need infinite setup both ways.) < 1417428607 72922 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ether is cool. embrace the ether. < 1417428682 114689 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like this stuff is awfully difficult < 1417428688 977912 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1417428733 961966 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to search through a large number of patterns. < 1417428748 864879 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. the proof has periodic control structures to both sides... it's worse than I thought. < 1417428754 351663 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1417428761 927033 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah < 1417428782 768411 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there reason to believe the simple metacell approach metaPattern = concatMap encodeCell is not working? where encodeCell :: Bool -> Vector n Bool < 1417428802 435275 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get it working in a zero background you'd need to invent some glider guns, i think < 1417428827 897007 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can use an ether background by having encodeCell False = ether? < 1417428842 620115 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok, with the given state of affairs, having something work against a plain ether background would be a great improvement. < 1417428878 588138 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, i don't know if there have been recent improvements. < 1417428902 99274 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume it's not a very hot research area :P < 1417428977 218280 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. no grant money in it < 1417428986 623565 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :too esoteric. < 1417429007 853414 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: as long as you don't require metacells to move at full speed, i don't see a real reason why that couldn't possibly work. < 1417429045 210378 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, the life metacell doesn't move at full speed either. < 1417429162 272921 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lpaste.net/115417 I've put a clearer explanation < 1417429164 90477 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the main speed obstacles i see have to do with large fields of zeros - you cannot get anything to move rightwards into them, and you cannot _stop_ anything from moving leftwards into them. < 1417429195 316942 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also i _suspect_ zeros are the only thing that allow maximal leftward speed in them < 1417429253 192251 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe simulation would have to allow for drift < 1417429256 356482 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: but i'd say what you're suggesting is the "obvious" thing to try first. < 1417429285 780569 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simulations may be have to occur in a wrapping world < 1417429323 249238 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you want not to run out of memory... < 1417429414 671061 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: you can probably do compression and hash-life like things to get simulation of metacells to have only a constant overhead. < 1417429453 193078 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good idea to speed up simulation and search < 1417429488 281928 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1417429527 616967 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lpaste.net/115417 < 1417429534 81425 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gues I got a lead for what to search for < 1417429548 972205 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. find repeating patterns of the same length < 1417429558 685998 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. try putting them together and search for pyramids < 1417429580 135250 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im sure that if I try this I will fail and not find anything but if it worked that would be nice < 1417430264 757515 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1417430335 879600 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell cluid "im sure that if I try this I will fail and not find anything but if it worked that would be nice" <-- this is called "research", hth. < 1417430336 33818 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1417430535 901461 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417430681 362223 :nooga!~nooga@c177-154.icpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1417431881 960521 :Dulnes!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-paaphezflqlyfvwo QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1417432545 90155 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417432548 427941 :nooga!~nooga@c177-154.icpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1417432638 582031 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fternoily < 1417432713 421870 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bon matørjan! < 1417432890 151395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning, boily. < 1417432958 936807 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning, shachaf. < 1417432982 378163 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@localtime shachaf < 1417432982 864444 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for shachaf is Mon Dec 1 03:22:21 2014 < 1417432991 782921 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time boily < 1417432992 126759 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for boily is Mon, 01 Dec 2014 06:22:31 -0500 < 1417433060 837213 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.89.152 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417433118 663175 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1417434934 950242 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1417436596 890647 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: RESERVED CHICKEN < 1417438580 422140 :AndoDaan_!~AndoDaan@188.188.89.152 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417438704 943524 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.89.152 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1417439539 214856 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1417440873 269744 :_AndoDaan_!~AndoDaan@188.189.72.14 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417440883 325386 :AndoDaan_!~AndoDaan@188.188.89.152 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1417441497 250060 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning everyone < 1417441509 664690 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have just finished breakfast < 1417441738 468673 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: I have just write one-half of a struct system. < 1417441812 754247 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :for what platform? < 1417441865 428732 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Heresy, my BASIC/Lisp thing. < 1417441897 478132 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jaxbhnntbdoylpxc QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1417442010 766376 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07GridScript14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41275&oldid=41268 5* 03SuperJedi224 5* (+160) 10 < 1417442184 289306 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :basic mixed with lisp... yeah 'Heresy' is a great name for something like that! < 1417442205 366220 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1417442218 229460 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like someything i'd like though. I started programming with Visual Basic < 1417442225 303094 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/jarcane/heresy < 1417442259 710357 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. It started as a joke, but in the future I might like to actually use it as a sort of 'gateway LISP' for guys like me who started out in BASIC and wanna learn LISP and FP. < 1417442752 453714 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it's implemented in racket! < 1417442768 890280 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :good choice. < 1417442790 503575 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used racket for a few of my courses < 1417443148 958055 :_AndoDaan_!~AndoDaan@188.189.72.14 QUIT :Quit: Quit < 1417443693 867558 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god. pi pi pika ka chu < 1417443703 804312 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :why... < 1417444004 444127 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well mightas well then < 1417444441 399847 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1417444744 276753 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Orenwatson14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41276&oldid=41257 5* 03Orenwatson 5* (+258) 10i hope your happy elliot < 1417444802 82614 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1417444972 972953 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Orenwatson14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41277&oldid=41276 5* 03Orenwatson 5* (+0) 10 < 1417445194 32956 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You missed a "t". < 1417445239 412201 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope yor happy elliott < 1417445363 139165 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Orenwatson14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41278&oldid=41277 5* 03Orenwatson 5* (+101) 10added translation hth < 1417445424 633567 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yor idia yor falt elliott < 1417445492 250866 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :「俺の妹はBF元着く言語を無理矢理作らせたから、学校のみんなが俺を笑う!」 < 1417445610 711288 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1417445613 977023 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1417446775 770386 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07GridScript14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41279&oldid=41275 5* 03SuperJedi224 5* (+17) 10/* Command Summary */ < 1417446897 341689 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417447355 236918 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417447361 618925 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1417447765 467414 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rifbbaonefimydnm JOIN :#esoteric < 1417448888 349266 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1417449878 937143 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1417449914 264317 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1417450074 697872 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1417450826 784188 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417452267 286852 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417452992 291254 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1417453097 247531 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1417453175 199527 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1417453181 251281 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ow. I think my brain just went into an infinite loop ... < 1417453206 584665 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did firefox hang my whole computer just now? < 1417453233 254319 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to restart my whole system < 1417453249 669857 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1417453305 991963 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a command line tool that will run a program but limit it to 1GB of memory total? < 1417453366 75255 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's sandboxie I think. < 1417453387 718551 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it might be more extreme than what you want: http://www.sandboxie.com/ < 1417453407 651321 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C there is setrlimit. < 1417453410 99363 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can run ulimit first, < 1417453418 275956 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :*. < 1417453418 580270 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1417453535 690885 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell FF, why do you just segfault when you can't hog any more memory??? < 1417453559 195774 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really wants ALLLLL my memory < 1417453625 362011 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :A segfault from a memory limit? < 1417453631 547305 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1417453657 770897 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you ulimit 1000000000 firefox just segfaults as soon as it starts < 1417453670 376899 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a hog < 1417453688 503542 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs 1400000000 just to start up < 1417453710 953617 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember when XP needed 64 meg and we called it a hog < 1417453719 233910 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :god damn < 1417453755 406857 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :… 1.4 TB? < 1417453762 562965 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.4 G < 1417453776 522726 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am using oftlimit < 1417453781 219648 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :softlimit command < 1417453789 986399 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is in bytes < 1417453898 274983 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do softlimit -a 1000000000 firefox it segfaults < 1417453915 471316 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1417453948 341780 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1417454092 170481 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so to prevent firfox form hanging and eating my whole system < 1417454112 802147 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna compromise and use softlimit -a 1500000000 < 1417454128 374886 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :limit it to 1.5 GB. < 1417454152 706385 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that allows it to start up but stops it if JS starts to hog everything < 1417454171 637138 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi NICK :lawspeaker < 1417454253 903062 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny, I don’t even know that problem. Must be NoScript. < 1417454265 152860 :lawspeaker!nortti@nano.smar.fi NICK :nortti < 1417454270 55153 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nesihorsrgpjwwkx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1417454280 634943 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or possibly it merely gets lost in the underflow. < 1417454292 339913 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use noscript too but if you allow too many tabs to run < 1417454306 389780 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can stillhappen asit did 5 minutes ago < 1417454316 518137 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had to hold down power button < 1417454333 458296 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :eight megs and constantly swapping < 1417454341 636599 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now emacs is a model of leanness < 1417454350 921432 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1417454366 275204 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :FF needs 1.5 GB! GB! < 1417454383 977884 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :unbelievable to the me of 2000 < 1417454401 328171 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes I knew what a GB was when I was 7) < 1417454411 870399 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine normally eats about 6GB … < 1417454440 845162 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wowww what? < 1417454442 974172 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :That’s what I get for over 9000 tabs open. < 1417454446 157007 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1417454479 1522 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i only have a few GB of memory total < 1417454503 340295 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 GB < 1417454533 738900 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a look on his netbook. < 1417454557 562203 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :this laptop cost me 260 dollars < 1417454577 728514 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is very very cheap < 1417454665 874635 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi NICK :lawspeaker < 1417454696 629553 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my pet peeve is when things that used to work on an old laptop stop working... < 1417454708 718323 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like recently my chromebook has been having cpu load issues with netflix and youtube < 1417454712 589819 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which worked perfectly fine for years < 1417454732 487369 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so either the software got more bloated on my chromebook or the codec choices on the server got more demanding < 1417454780 749733 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a button on firefox that stops all JS on the page < 1417454788 465703 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :life in the cloud... < 1417454801 149322 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i can hit it when the memory spikes < 1417454815 751031 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ctrl-fuckjs < 1417454829 855677 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ctrl-j < 1417454835 183224 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1417454860 449331 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid JOIN :#esoteric < 1417454862 75242 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1417454862 854053 :lawspeaker!nortti@nano.smar.fi NICK :nortti < 1417454865 184065 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1417454892 901984 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were talking about how FF is a memory hog < 1417454953 552733 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :X by itself used to hog memory, now FF uses 4 times as much < 1417455057 351952 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everyone is for some reason fine with that < 1417455087 531176 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :when moores law hits a fundamental limit, everyone will be in for < 1417455088 815354 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am interested in Gopher < 1417455091 439755 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) browsers turn out to be really useful these days, 2) in dollar amounts, its not using that much memory < 1417455091 582950 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :a giant shock < 1417455100 653316 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gopher is extremely light weight < 1417455107 214777 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can implement it with low memory in a page of cod < 1417455108 792384 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code < 1417455115 693306 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly i'm more concerned about browsers security issues than its memory consumption issues < 1417455134 408698 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the http protocol itself is not elegant but is not that complicated < 1417455151 672991 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :web standards have grown ridiculously out of proportion < 1417455153 462974 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :TLS is a bit ... but its also very useful... < 1417455156 643219 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :when a page of JS can hang my system it is a giant security issue < 1417455177 353332 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should be using chrome and not ffox ;-) < 1417455181 437113 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JS should be implemented ina resource bounded way, not using crazy JIT stuff to run it as fast as possibl < 1417455204 458704 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :does chrome put a limit on the amount of memory one tab uses < 1417455221 755527 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :firefox hung my system with 1 tab open. 1. < 1417455224 264917 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like chrome, it's annoying that i can't use proxies < 1417455244 354750 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: What was in the tab? < 1417455260 939579 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :discourse forum on dailywtf < 1417455294 508691 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use proxies with chrome. i use proxies all the time with chrome < 1417455305 195493 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am now running FF with a resource limit of 1.5 G < 1417455309 418208 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, the firefox on my netbook starts out at 180M, and it is by no means empty. < 1417455313 221642 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does not let me < 1417455319 150983 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're lucky < 1417455335 346145 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you dont have as much malware, melvar. < 1417455362 965717 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am using a whole bunch of plugins < 1417455381 722551 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hold on lemme disable them and we will see if they are the problwm < 1417455420 640238 :MDream!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1417455490 640639 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, I don’t think there’s flash on my netbook … < 1417455500 786629 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :javascript is a bad language < 1417455512 293717 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :flash is in a separete process so it isn't being counter < 1417455515 533600 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :counted < 1417455535 536026 :S1!~S1@pD9FCAABD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1417455546 425763 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.1 GB at startup, one tab, google with most of my addons disabled < 1417455548 723970 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oright, but then the same counts for other plugins. Unless you actually meant addons. < 1417455576 110622 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont recognize that there is a difference < 1417455591 308885 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the same thing anyway < 1417455613 342311 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phew. Done: http://pasterack.org/pastes/73293 < 1417455682 611404 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :sisabled adblock plus and we are down to 0.9 gb < 1417455688 806278 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool J_Arcane < 1417455695 466962 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually more like 1 gb < 1417455703 317785 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :9.7 < 1417455727 808789 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :9.7*10^8 < 1417455729 459158 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b < 1417455736 797068 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, Plugins are out-of-process programs using NPAPI, addons are JS+(HTML/XUL)+CSS packages inside the browser. < 1417455755 245093 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :addons are in JS?!?!? FUUUUUUUUUU < 1417455758 362230 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1417455771 719604 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the architecture of browser seems to encourge plugins being js < 1417455780 705662 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats why they eat memory like my uncle at a bbq < 1417455785 929201 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :With regards to firefox, “plugin” and “addon” are technical terms. < 1417455786 82984 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1417455809 698335 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually he's lost weight these days < 1417455820 120738 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so nvm < 1417455828 312222 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firefox exists to eat memory. < 1417455841 841234 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gopher clients dont generally eat memor < 1417455842 807825 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1417455843 204676 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, it exists to keep my life-state in. < 1417455855 720288 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other day I found a rant from 2006 complaining about it consuming 1GB of memory. < 1417455857 196681 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can interact with gopher using a simple command line client < 1417455873 676393 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I laughed and laughed ,because it's still as bad. < 1417455888 232597 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well as i said XP needed 64 megs and we called it an abomination < 1417455909 500831 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what OS uses low memory? < 1417455911 866807 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess BSD? < 1417455917 716436 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :minix < 1417455924 60277 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also DOS < 1417455945 215167 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07GridScript14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41280&oldid=41279 5* 03SuperJedi224 5* (+45) 10/* Ackermann Function */ < 1417455987 302453 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :my aunt still runs DOS with WordPerfect to do her work < 1417455994 170933 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a theologian < 1417456002 72861 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: FreeBSD is pretty nice, yes. < 1417456035 477326 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :floppy disks 4eva < 1417456042 946385 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :FF literally eats more memory than my entire OS, Xorg, window manager, and emacs put together. By multiples. < 1417456055 43695 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly. WTF. < 1417456080 198075 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only time my firefox eats more than expected is after I reconnect to the network when the router faceplanted. It seems proportional to how long it has been running, but I have yet to figure out what it actually tries to do then. < 1417456137 649699 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Melvar: Runtime affects it, yes. It leaks memory. It literally has since beta, and it's never been fixed. There are joke websites about 'how long until the FF memory leak will be fixed'. It's a well known issue. < 1417456163 731426 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :web browsers are the new OS < 1417456184 488302 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the early days it was a running joke that the new patch notes would announce they finally fixed the memory hole. And then so would the next, and the next, and ... < 1417456191 528792 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07POGAACK14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41281&oldid=41261 5* 03BCompton 5* (+2) 10Fixed dead link template < 1417456196 427184 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :J_Arcane: I mean, this only happens when I reconnect to the internet after falling off, and why that is is what I can’t figure out. < 1417456228 607204 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Melvar: Yeah, that is an odd case. Maybe something in it starts duplicating processes attempting to reconnect? < 1417456237 333280 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I expect they keep fixing memory holes, but new ones get introduced at about the same rate. < 1417456293 559462 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh. from now on i'mma use a site to download youtube videos instead of using the stupid youtube player < 1417456319 696592 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youtube-dl command line program < 1417456330 7968 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES someone make that < 1417456331 924815 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no, it starts *after I reconnect*. And the growth is proportional to the running time, not the previous held memory. < 1417456381 113448 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: It’s there, I’ve been using it for ages for videos I want to sit back and enjoy, ’cause my pipe isn’t fat enough to stream even 720p reliably. < 1417456389 855461 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Melvar that sounds like a bug from terrible design... why would firefox even need to know how you are connected. < 1417456414 251468 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually select the video url and press super+y to start downloading the video. < 1417456448 607732 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: Outside of actually trying to load something, yeah. < 1417456449 765269 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :awsome < 1417456496 900094 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :This involves a WM keybind and a script that uses xclip and youtube-dl. < 1417456520 313784 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, i'll just CC CV into the command line < 1417456564 491091 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would b egood to use more technologes that are not web based < 1417456570 5870 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. Gopher < 1417456570 822240 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :with this i have no more reason to use FF instead of lynx < 1417456580 999643 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodbyefirefox < 1417456688 457557 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously this is the best < 1417456883 607282 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1417456928 412491 :FreeFull!~freefull@wk-31-142.guest.rdg.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1417456928 753621 :FreeFull!~freefull@wk-31-142.guest.rdg.ac.uk QUIT :Changing host < 1417456928 896894 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1417457111 271749 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1417457678 610168 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holy crap this is cool. Gambit Scheme inside Emacs running inside a browser tab: https://feeley.github.io/gambit-in-emacs-in-the-browser/ < 1417457770 423858 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use a lot of terminal stuff mostly because my first computer was Redhat Linux without X < 1417457785 564975 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :my second computer was WinXP < 1417457817 219335 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not have a grudge against either and cannot understand why anyone would < 1417457883 134522 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but things inside browsers really make me annoyed < 1417457898 380674 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like soundcloud whyyyyy < 1417457918 867967 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was wrong with downloading music before playing it < 1417457930 19791 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or while playing it < 1417457989 306615 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes browsers are recapitulating the history of operating systems < 1417458041 249144 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: It's basically the thin-client race all over again, only they're starting to win. < 1417458046 566148 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame Microsoft. < 1417458054 865029 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame google < 1417458087 229401 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Windows apps weren't shit, people wouldn't have started this crap in the first place. < 1417458093 681432 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417458153 169721 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :firefox and chrome is like windows 95 vs unix in terms of multitasking < 1417458168 397950 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1417458187 226987 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chrome has issues, but the sandboxing and process management is way better most of the time. < 1417458365 748543 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for playing music i'm not about to switch from vlc -Incurses < 1417458409 128616 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :to soundcloud inside chrome < 1417458476 997784 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm i should make an ncurses module for scrip7 < 1417458498 83223 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1417458526 81369 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe an ncurses module for befunge < 1417458544 523598 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though i dunno if befunge is easily extensible) < 1417458724 120651 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is already a ncurses fingerprint for Funge-98. < 1417458733 797952 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's called NCRS. < 1417458803 87725 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implemented at least by cfunge and Rc/Funge-98, IIRC. < 1417458823 156363 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1417458864 511254 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And CCBI too. < 1417458880 815106 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do wish Racket had PDCurses support; or at least better libtcod bindings that actually work. < 1417460486 955002 :S1!~S1@pD9FCAABD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de NICK :S0 < 1417460740 659617 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1417461836 300488 :Sauvin!~Sauvin@about/linux/staff/sauvin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1417461872 851988 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://jarcane.github.io/blog/2014/12/01/inventing-a-thing.html < 1417462039 946293 :S0!~S1@pD9FCAABD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de NICK :S1 < 1417462151 950854 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :J_Arcane: cool! yeah, the racket structs are a pain < 1417462427 749311 :G33kDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1417462499 719591 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1417462505 915457 :G33kDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude NICK :GeekDude < 1417462577 990830 :myndzi!myndzi@kingofstackers.com PART :#esoteric < 1417462587 176850 :myndzi!myndzi@kingofstackers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1417462869 878145 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :old skool < 1417462898 426517 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Pikalang14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41282&oldid=41273 5* 03Zzo38 5* (-37) 10 < 1417463074 97230 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: that 1.5 GB may not be measuring what you think it is. < 1417463152 11417 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: if you're using adblock plus don't blame firefox for memory usage :) it's a massive memory hog < 1417463224 909115 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i disbled it which reduced usage to 1.1 GB. that's still a hog < 1417463236 275282 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, was the entire backlog today nerds complaining about boring stuff? < 1417463271 443235 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yah i think so... J-Arcane wrote a cool BASIC-Lisp hybrid < 1417463295 63911 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: and are you sure that 1.5 GB is measuring what you think it is? http://virtualthreads.blogspot.co.uk/2006/02/understanding-memory-usage-on-linux.html https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7880784/what-is-rss-and-vsz-in-linux-memory-management < 1417463384 531898 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the VIRT column on top? < 1417463396 851777 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i think also includes swap usage < 1417463428 720564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should probably at least read the SO answer. measuring memory usage is non-trivial and a column saying "1.5 GB" doesn't really correspond to 1.5 GB closer to running out of RAM. < 1417463497 220903 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of times processes on my netbook have more in the VIRT column than i have ram chips. weird, right < 1417463500 138237 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, firefox uses a lot of RAM but most of the absurd figures are down to bad measurement or addons < 1417463518 358429 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually doesn't firefox have an internal memory usage thingie < 1417463521 188353 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :about:memory or something < 1417463526 179161 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :chrome does, at least. maybe ff too < 1417463549 456002 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well firefox segfaults if i run it with a ulimit of 1 GB < 1417463551 817708 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of people like to say chrome uses tons of RAM because it uses multiple processes and it looks like every process is using tons of memory because it's sharing stuff with the others < 1417463566 6039 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i googled a big before realizing that i was googling using firefox and could just check. < 1417463566 811763 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: and what is that ulimit limiting? do you know what that ulimit means? < 1417463568 928107 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit < 1417463579 559656 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops not ulimit the other one < 1417463625 304147 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :softlimit -a 1000000000 firefox < 1417463633 242398 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"19.73 MB (01.60%) ++ top(https://www.google.com/search?q=firefox+about+pages" how ironic < 1417463635 879653 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :limits all memory < 1417463643 507004 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"all memory" huh < 1417463659 771525 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like all the memory put together < 1417463667 904505 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently < 1417463689 927605 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't mean much of anything. < 1417463691 625668 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the total of all segment sizes < 1417463728 857147 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I'll stop linking you helpful information to try and clear up any misconceptions you have, since it seems you're certain you don't have any. < 1417463746 578096 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well how come it segfaults? < 1417463754 415530 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the fucking links then ask < 1417463755 248656 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: htop reports that chrome causes about 1GB more memory to be used, or thereabouts < 1417463763 556689 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit less when I first spin it up < 1417463779 7808 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :COOL FACT: the .bss segment is reserved for memory that starts off as all zeroes. WEIRDLY, programs do not just reserve the size of the bss on physical ram chips and zero it out. WHO KNOWS WHY THOUGH < 1417463786 616386 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also uses a lot of CPU < 1417463796 795181 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't that mean they tried to allocate something with malloc, it returned null and they gnored that? < 1417463810 863152 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. what the fuck? < 1417463816 296001 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only legitimate reason for a segfault < 1417463829 555715 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a prperly made app anyway < 1417463850 772245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, properly made apps don't even bother checking malloc's return value < 1417463857 89113 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know how memory works, shut up about "properly made" if you're not only going to not know things but refuse to learn things. < 1417463869 416665 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: sure. I can believe that. I have my doubts about the measuring process being used for this firefox figure, though. < 1417463889 512268 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if malloc returns null what areyou going to do? keep in mind you might need memory to do it. < 1417463890 625540 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think it's more or less irrelevant though, the far more relevant question is how the memory usage grows with additional tabs < 1417463905 975655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: you don't need any RAM to check for NULL and print out an error message and abort < 1417463922 682330 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :please stop assuming I'm more ignorant than you, it's really condescending. < 1417463951 35743 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're going to print an error then abort,that's ok for console. Firefox is a X program < 1417463955 875089 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :some programs even gracefully recover from malloc failure! though it's tricky to trigger one on linux by default < 1417463974 867767 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: malloc failing doesn't take away any of your previous memory. you can reserve some at any point previously < 1417463975 984933 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :setrlimit to some low value < 1417463999 699583 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :will cause malloc to fail in many programs < 1417464011 357972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can practically guarantee you firefox checks the return value of malloc, if only to abort()... < 1417464026 428067 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand how it can segfault then < 1417464026 571495 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, okay; I suppose it probably mostly uses C++ new or such) < 1417464043 871541 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :just from limiting its memory < 1417464052 661785 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm not saying it doesn't have any bugs. anyway, do you know about overcommit and the OOM killer? < 1417464068 150313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to be testing malloc failures the default linux configuration is a bad one, since it's unlikely to produce any. < 1417464085 780052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417464162 100043 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i said, if you setrlimit malloc will fail right? < 1417464165 846633 :perrier!~cinch@107.170.175.57 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1417464180 858047 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how rlimits interact with overcommit/OOM killer behaviour. < 1417464343 468568 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :brk and sbrk fail when the rlimit has been set. src:man setrlimit < 1417464398 83074 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw i'm not assuming you don't know anything < 1417464407 743901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but memory isn't only allocated through brk and sbrk. firefox uses jemalloc; that uses mmap too < 1417464408 944165 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just am describing my understanding < 1417464419 227361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the rlimit affects how much can be overcommitted < 1417464428 261942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, any memory malloc claims to have given you counts against the rlimit < 1417464433 866240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right < 1417464440 312802 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :once the limit is reached, malloc returns null < 1417464451 333290 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: firefox doesn't use libc malloc, though, for one < 1417464459 139738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel doesn't know about malloc, really... < 1417464461 663337 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1417464464 806335 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should write my own malloc. < 1417464467 689348 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :RLIMIT_AS limits brk, mmap and mreamap < 1417464470 767778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: to be precise, sbrk and mmap return null < 1417464474 2466 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess doing it in terms of mmap is the thing. < 1417464479 12378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1417464551 256215 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeX implements its own memory allocation. SQLite can use its own memory allocation too. Lemon and bzip2 both allow you to specify your own alternate memory allocation instead of using malloc/free. < 1417464573 427831 :augur!~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1417464789 132751 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And RLIMIT_AS also limits things that are not really "using" memory, like mmap'ing actual files. And will count things like shared memory blocks and libraries as if the process in question was their only user. < 1417464792 981487 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely recall we had that discussion about the address space use of a "hello, world" Java program on the Sun JVM being , due to . < 1417464830 372940 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Related fun fact: the x86 architectures have a direction flag that can be set to cause the processor to run backwards. This is how the backwards copying overlapping memmove is implemented." meh, I was hoping this meant the ip actually moves backwards, but it's hyperbole < 1417464850 494674 :augur!~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1417464872 890797 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just the *si/*di register postincrement/decrement, sadly. < 1417464893 161672 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still waiting for x86 increment immediate < 1417464941 620177 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-201-82.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :istr JVM needing something like 2GB virtual memory to start at all (after running into a badly set ulimit), but that was virtual memory < 1417464966 323658 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis 19104 2.0 0.1 6555876 28496 pts/1 Sl+ 22:14 0:00 java -cp . tmp < 1417464980 588999 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Six and a half gigs of address space, ~28 megs resident. < 1417464988 302023 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is or is not RLIMIT_AS a good way of estimating how much memory firefox is actually using? < 1417465067 366328 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or which RLIMIT is the right one? < 1417465121 608564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: like, it would self-modify the instruction? < 1417465132 563113 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/QMWR <- not unless you think that meant it takes more than 4 gigabytes to run a trivial Java program. < 1417465136 530309 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. i've heard vax had it but that might be wrong. < 1417465146 295656 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no "right one". < 1417465153 62785 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1417465170 221779 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :firefox gives you a thing to analyze its memory usage. i think it is a good place to start. < 1417465201 645569 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't analyze it after my system hangs < 1417465248 692111 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :from huge memory usage on certain websites by firefox < 1417465252 508577 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, it has "heap-allocated" of about 772 MB here. top shows 2600 MBish VIRT. so, i mean. < 1417465313 88092 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: you can easily measure memory usage at startup with it, though. < 1417465316 413791 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Projects/Emscripten/Techniques/Out_of_memory_error_reports here's something < 1417465392 656655 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i think that's for js though < 1417465430 549406 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :this morning i went on dailywtf forums, and my whole system froze and i had to hold down power button < 1417465457 754708 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is how i came to this problem < 1417465474 323225 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was your browser protecting you from that site < 1417465495 434693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417465502 456399 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can also happen on games written in JS < 1417465502 677911 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417465538 479927 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1417465552 748172 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want firefox to die of a segfault instead of hanging < 1417465575 202306 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is how i found out that setting the limit to 1GB or less causes immediate segfault < 1417465583 833690 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you know it's memory usage? < 1417465595 985630 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is RLIMIT_AS < 1417465604 41118 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the hang? < 1417465608 317732 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean how do you know the hangs are caused by memory usage, yes. < 1417465662 415555 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know because the hard disk light turns on and doesn't turn off, indicating swapping constantly < 1417465680 473174 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also because i once watched it happen on top < 1417465694 650332 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i went to ctrlalt f1 < 1417465701 255217 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and opened top < 1417465710 384860 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had 100% memory used < 1417465744 688465 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much RAM do you have, by the way? < 1417465748 273380 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :2GB < 1417465759 637622 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be enough for anyon < 1417465765 433867 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone < 1417465769 623184 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as your hours of complaining demonstrate, it clearly isn't. :p < 1417465779 557112 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you using a 64-bit OS? < 1417465783 204799 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1417465785 23831 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then stop. < 1417465788 628219 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be enough for anyone -- bill gates, never < 1417465789 356175 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1417465795 428478 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1417465796 276163 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rpuqqzydnwihxnyx JOIN :#esoteric < 1417465798 389913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only have 2 gigabytes of RAM and 64-bit OSes use more memory! < 1417465802 474702 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pointers are bigger! < 1417465809 266880 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the horror < 1417465810 644830 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not insignificant. < 1417465824 943096 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my 2 gb netbook uses 64 bit, the old model was 32 bit < 1417465825 431312 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason that the x32 ABI (x86-64 + 32-bit pointers) is a thing. < 1417465826 824543 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah, that means i effectivly have 1GB that is still a lot < 1417465834 795441 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sighs < 1417465836 125643 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, i liked finding books on the obscure "x86" architecture" < 1417465840 262506 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bugs, not books < 1417465843 300844 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i also found books. < 1417465844 141674 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just looking for an argument, not help, right? < 1417465875 83297 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what do i do if i want firefox to segfault instead of freezing the whole ubunut? < 1417465886 822951 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is or is not RLIMIT_AS the one i want? < 1417465899 750598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you wanna take over? < 1417465900 194122 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe VAX has a "increment immediate" instruction; x86 doesn't have any such thing. < 1417465909 604278 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you want it to segfault if it mmaps a big file? no? well, there you go then < 1417465919 371293 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would it do that? < 1417465945 418367 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a web browser not a database < 1417465949 75544 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: If you can manage to set a RLIMIT_AS that's both large enough for Firefox to run and small enough so that you can fit the limit plus the rest of your system in your physical memory at the same time, maybe that could be a practical solution. < 1417465964 819139 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: It doesn't sound terribly likely, though. < 1417465968 789146 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap < 1417465992 380323 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I doubt I'll have anything more constructive to offer than "things don't look good" + "look for lightweight browsers". < 1417466003 297299 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(They'll all suck, of course.) < 1417466014 893667 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess i can use lynx for almost everything < 1417466046 750789 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :except some of my school websites < 1417466077 324223 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just install a 32-bit OS, which would have a measurable concrete benefit and not involve guessing what random rlimits mean. < 1417466084 769497 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417466106 398685 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ormaybe ill just buy a new laptop < 1417466108 970013 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I bought a really cheap laptop recently, and it still had 4 gigabytes of RAM (but a 1.5 ghz processor). < 1417466113 834449 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you picked cheep laptop unwisely :p < 1417466115 453102 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cheap < 1417466133 340405 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one is already 1.5 years old < 1417466157 434490 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tend to replace them every 2 years anyway < 1417466169 679027 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could buy a more expensive laptop that would last 4 years < 1417466171 269740 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one has 4GB and it's second hand and I believe the previous owner had it for years < 1417466188 108791 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one cost 260 bucks < 1417466220 836059 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Speaking of browsers and their memory use, Chrome's own task manager says the GPU process is using 800 megs of it.) < 1417466237 735958 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren, this cost me £50 < 1417466258 769226 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :50 punds = how many canadian dollars < 1417466273 935144 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, canadian dollars? no wonder it was bad < 1417466284 667031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1417466284 667139 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417466290 470569 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1417466297 882858 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one I bought cost more like 400 CAD, but everything is expensive in europe < 1417466304 565408 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1417466312 151711 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1417466328 251242 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :canadian dollars ar not worth much < 1417466332 97362 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren, $89.20 < 1417466338 705307 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats why we got rid of our pennies < 1417466360 674111 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Speaking of which, your capital city seems stupidly expensive. < 1417466382 763990 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes. < 1417466391 87842 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't understand why my unnamed future employer must be in there of all places. Except maybe it's "hip"? < 1417466391 729957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you can probably make a trade-off with commutes, but... < 1417466410 682584 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't you named that employer in here already? < 1417466417 198878 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1417466437 610394 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Only over the speech recognition, so I have plausible deniability. (I don't know why I did that, it's not a secret.) < 1417466456 251309 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone will know you're going to work for microsoft < 1417466461 456519 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lycos < 1417466465 585388 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*altavista < 1417466475 594534 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*astalavista < 1417466477 64091 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i worked for Bering MEdia < 1417466488 800199 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was fun < 1417466498 882996 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember Astalavista, but not what it actually searched. < 1417466509 601619 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the crack place? < 1417466527 84105 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1417466530 10144 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, "computer security information" place. < 1417466542 884042 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this bering media company entirely dedicated to creepy ad targetting < 1417466555 207190 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1417466600 151847 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i, an intern had access to the names, phone numbers, mailing addresses of many many people in theUS < 1417466617 436159 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my NDA is over so nyah nyah) < 1417466617 934479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much for "doubleblind privacy(TM)" < 1417466637 92392 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i didn't have their IP addresses < 1417466638 429429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Privacy is a popular topic today – the online advertising debate of privacy versus functionality is a big conversation in the media. Too often privacy is viewed at odds with the goals of industry, but we think that’s the easy way out. < 1417466646 45202 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what it actually means < 1417466654 529556 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "zip+4" mean? < 1417466663 252637 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: those extended US zips, I think? < 1417466665 409054 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a mailing address < 1417466669 425176 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 123456-1942 or something < 1417466674 370665 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they target a residence directly < 1417466688 833156 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could send anyone a letter < 1417466692 92114 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :An extended ZIP+4 code, introduced in 1983, includes the five digits of the ZIP code, a hyphen, and four more digits that determine a more specific location within a given ZIP code. < 1417466709 620858 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it usually at least targets the specific building < 1417466719 901908 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I C. < 1417466740 1837 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the idea was you could target an area by centre and radius < 1417466744 136762 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :with web ads < 1417466782 875515 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re Bering Media, I was at least amused by that blog post title on the front page: "The EU ‘cookie law’: what has it done for us?" < 1417466786 91537 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, it was not a link to a Monty Python parody. < 1417466815 945991 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was there they only had the USA < 1417466825 647967 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it is a canadian company < 1417466857 870101 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually we only had names for some of the database < 1417466861 477066 :dario!~dario@net-2-33-6-153.cust.dsl.teletu.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1417466879 271285 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it was compiled from public information < 1417466895 611809 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but having all of it in one place is kind of... < 1417466976 843968 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes now i remember, they got most of the info from the US postal service somehow < 1417467032 40961 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the ISPs cooperated to associate ip's with locations < 1417467054 529560 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :they had deals with several medium size ISP's < 1417467094 717585 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew. < 1417467099 3155 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :although all of that is public if you read the blogs of the company < 1417467135 553923 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair however almost 100% of clicks on ads come from bots < 1417467147 332013 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is another thing i learned there < 1417467169 549891 :dario!~dario@net-2-33-6-153.cust.dsl.teletu.it PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1417467173 740530 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the websites with highest click counts are websites almost no-one uses < 1417467228 597921 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome dario < 1417467231 962865 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​06dario: 13Welcome 04to 07the 08international 09hub 02for 06esoteric 13programming 04language 07design 08and 09deployment! 02For 06more 13information, 04check 07out 08our 09wiki: 02. 06(For 13the 04other 07kind 08of 09esoterica, 02try 06#esoteric 13on 04irc.dal.net.) < 1417467253 539399 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the people who click a lot on ads are people with virus-infected machines < 1417467271 431352 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, Russian-controlled botnets < 1417467299 235498 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello dario < 1417467310 640100 :dario!~dario@net-2-33-6-153.cust.dsl.teletu.it PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello oren? < 1417467377 300341 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other reason i can talk about bering media is because my boss at the time quit the company < 1417467472 520237 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :becuase he did'nt like what they were doing < 1417467569 279064 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that no-one wants to pay for bot-clicks, but websites want bots to click < 1417467601 9523 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the web ad industry is under attack from both ends < 1417467808 144586 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they write code to try to identify the user so they can 'ban' robots < 1417467846 68807 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't really work becuase a large botnet can issue one click for each of its nodes < 1417467876 32919 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that adds up to a fe dollars worth of clicks < 1417467923 655325 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which the ad network has to pay for and charge the client < 1417467937 729782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: almost 100% of ad clicks coming from bots doesn't surprise me at all < 1417467944 112242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people don't follow ads at all < 1417467988 393871 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, many advertisers are in favour of adblock because of this, it means they aren't charged for views that probably wouldn't lead to a follow anyway < 1417468012 495622 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@wl-nat113.it.wsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1417468019 679239 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the people who use advblock are least likely to be infected < 1417468038 151576 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :by botnets < 1417468074 312355 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno the whole thing seemed unsolvable to me < 1417468167 258187 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why i didn't think what they were doing was wrong, just pointless < 1417468198 156516 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: I also concluded that internet adverts are probably pointless < 1417468218 901088 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :distinguishing a bot from a human when neither is cooperating with you is probably impossible < 1417468260 288554 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :over a network, i mean < 1417468267 984491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: right, that seems like an even harder problem than CAPTCHAs < 1417468292 88750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because for CAPTCHAs, at least the humans are cooperating < 1417468295 354098 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :they had an idea involving checking how fast the mouse moved over the ads < 1417468309 810141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :easily fakable once the botnets determine that that's what's happening < 1417468322 60732 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which wouldn't take them long if your ad network was at all large < 1417468333 247545 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't be so discouraging, internet ads pay my (future) salary. :/ < 1417468337 107963 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bots move at human speeds already < 1417468368 130833 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey the industry is thriving even if everyone in it knows it's kind of a sham < 1417468409 134623 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because people see the ads even if they don't click < 1417468420 446541 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and advertisers think that's enough < 1417468445 188995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: well, for TV ads < 1417468447 976827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you /can't/ click on them < 1417468452 713121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet they're still pretty popular < 1417468488 810609 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the endless hordes of untechnical users make up for nerds using adblock < 1417468535 209254 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :adverts probably aren't the right way to contact the nerds anyway < 1417468589 728751 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly there is a browser that comes with adblock: maxthon < 1417468609 494501 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only even bigger nerdsthan me use that < 1417468611 238072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most email clients have adblock nowadays < 1417468618 234131 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1417468693 665327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, interesting that web ads are so much easier to block < 1417468704 568623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because all the ad companies use complex third-party hosting methods and the like < 1417468776 89491 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also use filters with whatever email client you are using; or define a filter that comes before the client is another way < 1417468798 700068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just getting the sites displaying the ads to also serve the ads, which would be the sensible way (also, a rather less evil way because then the ad company doesn't get tracking data) < 1417468808 372913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that's probably why they don't do things sensibly < 1417468823 420691 :Froox!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1417468958 759519 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :tracking is important because you don't want 50 clicks from one computer < 1417468984 63923 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1417469103 691453 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1417469121 729349 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: you see the clicks, just not views < 1417469132 455330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you still control the destination of the link, just not the source any more < 1417469138 652171 :nooga_!~nooga@91.235.25.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417469168 207128 :yorick_!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1417469300 689663 :puritania!~S1@pD9FCAABD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1417469334 92829 :aloril_!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw2-50defd-78.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1417469626 226109 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyeverybody.avi < 1417469690 670638 :S1!~S1@pD9FCAABD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1417469692 946350 :puritania!~S1@pD9FCAABD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de NICK :S1 < 1417469749 49689 :nooga!~nooga@91.235.25.1 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1417469751 82155 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :*.net *.split < 1417469755 65249 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick QUIT :*.net *.split < 1417469755 467143 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw2-50defd-78.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1417470054 141175 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 969 < 1417470057 425 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 969: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti < 1417470222 506451 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1417470243 264823 :oren!~oren@user3-211-19.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does olist do < 1417470270 758572 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notifies people. < 1417470285 20283 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls bin/*list* < 1417470288 239410 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/danddreclist \ bin/dontaskdonttelllist \ bin/don'taskdon'ttelllist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/erflist \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/llist \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/pbflistdeluxe \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist < 1417470442 663961 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rot13 test < 1417470444 437131 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :grfg < 1417470456 617338 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo test | rot13 < 1417470458 99865 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :test | rot13 < 1417470462 75383 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! echo test | rot13 < 1417470463 725349 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/echo: not found < 1417470469 622685 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo test | rot13 < 1417470471 478829 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :grfg < 1417470473 589460 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1417470481 293819 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` rot13