00:00:59 Hm, what was that anagolf task again... 00:01:51 > 1/(1/(1/0.30103-3)-3) 00:01:52 9.40873786407741 00:02:19 > 1/(1/(1/(1/0.30103-3)-3)-9) 00:02:20 2.446555819478985 00:02:29 > 1/(1/(1/(1/(1/0.30103-3)-3)-9)-2) 00:02:30 2.239361702119884 00:02:45 > 1/(1/(1/(1/(1/(1/(1/0.30103-3)-3)-9)-2)-2)-4) 00:02:46 5.624999995706039 00:02:58 ah there it diverges 00:03:30 > 1/(1/(1/(1/(1/(1/(1/0.30103-3)-3)-9)-2)-2)-4) :: Rational 00:03:31 45 % 8 00:04:31 Oh right, A057755 00:04:38 > 1/(1/(1/(1/(1/(1/(1/0.30102-3)-3)-9)-2)-2)-4) :: Rational 00:04:39 (-265) % 1064 00:05:52 Huh. 00:06:03 oh, you changed a decimal digit 00:08:01 -!- Froox has changed nick to Frooxius. 00:08:18 here I was hoping fizzie would take that bait too 00:08:27 I guess I could, like, "measure" it or whatever 00:12:44 I think ret is generally easier to predict than an arbitrary indirect jump. 00:13:49 > sqrt 3 00:13:50 1.7320508075688772 00:18:00 shachaf: Right, but it wouldn't have to be that way. It's because compilers know that using 'ret' for returning to some other point than where the previous "call" was comes at a stiff price. I'm sure they would happily take advantage of a cheap instruction that just happens to jump to the address on top of the stack, popping it. 00:19:13 The stiff price being that no CPU will ever predict the target correctly. 00:20:08 and, of course, a cascade of similar failures further down the stack. 00:34:36 Huh 00:34:51 ... 00:35:03 Why did anagolf accept a trailing space 00:35:22 I thought it was annoyingly anal about things like that 00:35:23 it's not its job to correct your stupid mistakes 00:36:12 [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41216&oldid=41202 * Oerjan * (+96) include original Japanese 00:37:16 FireFly: it is anal except at the very end of output 00:37:41 I see 00:43:18 -!- boily has joined. 00:43:46 [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41217&oldid=41215 * Oerjan * (+48) fmt 00:54:20 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 00:54:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:56:41 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 00:56:51 [wiki] [[REGXY]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41218&oldid=7994 * Oerjan * (+91) The link on C2 Wiki was bitrotted so include the right one here 01:07:31 -!- Dulnes has joined. 01:07:38 [wiki] [[Reg Xy]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41219 * Oerjan * (+65) Add redirect 01:08:23 Happy Thank give 01:11:33 happy thank give to you too 01:12:29 Im doing swell i guess 01:12:39 How are you elliott 01:12:56 bad 01:13:05 :( 01:13:14 :/ 01:13:18 Why? 01:13:22 If i may ask 01:15:01 nothing I want to go into in #esoteric :p 01:15:53 K i understand 01:16:05 elliott: :( 01:16:15 §-§ 01:16:32 These § why are they even added 01:16:47 aw c'mon, I'd give that answer tons, it's just not a common question in here :p 01:17:06 simoleons? 01:17:45 oh, right, it's section mark if you're not a nerd like i am 01:19:36 [wiki] [[REBEL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41220&oldid=41103 * Kendfrey * (-11) Changed link to point to new site 01:20:46 s acrobats 01:22:15 Taneb: pikhq_: how are *you* on this merry thank give 01:22:20 yeah that was just an excuse to say thank give again 01:23:04 Well, I'm listening to I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue 01:23:21 I have no pants on and am playing Pokemon. 01:23:24 So, "fabulous". 01:25:10 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 01:25:51 which version? 01:26:04 Alpha Sapphire. 01:26:18 I've been sort-of considering getting that myself 01:26:22 Me too 01:26:34 * FireFly too 01:26:37 Not sure if I should go for Alpha Sapphire or Omega Ruby though 01:26:41 but I'd need to buy a new console 01:26:44 NOT ME 01:26:58 My impression is that it's where they actually put most of their work into, rather than XY. 01:27:02 * oerjan goes back to tatham's puzzles 01:27:25 Not sure if I can justify getting OR/AS given how much (or little, rather) time I spent on X/Y 01:27:58 Taneb both are exactly the same and are relativaly short only difference is the main villain and the new graphics 01:28:07 +bug fix's 01:28:12 Dulnes, hence the hard decisions 01:28:21 pikhq_: well they put most of the work into ORAS back when they were making Ruby/Sapphire 01:28:25 Team nerd or team bara 01:28:33 Well, true. 01:28:56 Magma or what was the other one i only played ruby 01:28:58 Hence why ORAS is where they threw a lot of gameplay tweaks. 01:29:25 quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA! (should you ever answer while you're mexicaning.) 01:29:25 Aqua 01:29:33 Taquanelle! 01:29:36 They had the new-rendering-engine thing for XY 01:29:40 Yeah in the caves you cant traverse it by memory 01:29:50 You need to defeat the gym leader 01:29:59 and new engine overall, I guess 01:30:08 3d 01:30:11 Fancy 01:30:21 * pikhq_ has greatly appreciated little details like "offering to teleport you instead of forced backtracking". 01:30:35 Indeed 01:30:57 Also, DexNav is glorious. 01:31:00 My wife says Hi... i have to go eat family dinner 01:31:07 Byr 01:31:11 Bye* 01:31:19 It's like breeding Pokemon, only much less agonizing! 01:31:43 what is DexNav, anyway? 01:31:58 pikhq_, if you've go Sapphire I shall get Omega Ruby! 01:32:18 oh, it managed to get onto Bulbapedia before they locked the site down due to hacking 01:32:24 sapphire was my first pokemon game 01:32:32 oh yeah well ruby was mine 01:32:33 fucker 01:32:35 fight me 01:32:41 Emerald was mine, I'm young 01:32:48 There's a menu in the PokeNav that lets you see Pokemon in the route you're in. You can tap on one of them to find more of 'em... 01:32:49 aren't you like a lot older than me 01:32:53 Gold was mine, I'm slightly less young 01:32:55 taneb is 33 01:32:59 I meant you 01:33:00 oh, it's basically Habitat List from BW2, but prettier 01:33:06 I guess I'm actually just as old as old people now though 01:33:07 mine was Blue 01:33:07 There's more. 01:33:09 like, three yars maybe!! 01:33:11 years 01:33:13 also yars 01:33:24 elliott, I'm like 9 months older 01:33:25 but yeah i didn't get into pokemon like everyone i know did 01:33:33 More you encounter the Pokemon, the better the Pokemon you find with DexNav are. 01:33:36 Habitat List is great, anyway 01:33:41 (permanently) 01:34:00 Taneb: what if you being born somehow metaphysically caused me to be conceived (per the hexham synchronicity) 01:34:04 So you get decent odds of shiny Pokemon, of higher level, with egg moves, and 3+ maxed IVs. 01:34:21 Fancy 01:34:45 [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41221&oldid=41217 * SuperJedi224 * (-63) /* 99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall */ 01:35:14 my theory is that the Pokémon people decided there was no way they could stop RNG abuse, and decided to make it unnecessary 01:35:20 however, wild Pokémon with egg moves seems wrong to me 01:36:11 It's a much smaller list of moves than the full list of possible egg moves. 01:36:15 elliott, somehow I doubt it 01:36:16 Oh, also chance of hidden ability. 01:36:31 `? hexham 01:36:33 Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico 01:36:47 that said, I'm upset at the "no illegal egg move combinations" 01:37:08 I'm /not/ upset at hidden abilities becoming commonplace, the old way of treating them like event Pokémon drove me out of competitive for a year 01:37:15 (until BW2 mostly fixed it using Hidden Hollows) 01:37:30 [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41222&oldid=41221 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* 99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall */ 01:37:37 XY had the Friend Safari making them more common, and additionally made them breadable. 01:37:44 *breedable 01:37:45 i support this typo 01:38:22 Also fun, XY + ORAS has all the non-event legendaries. 01:38:31 And one of the event legendaries. 01:38:31 pikhq_: they always were breedable, from females 01:38:37 ais523: Right, right. 01:38:42 getting the first female was very hard in BW and quite hard in B2W2, though 01:38:42 Males have a low chance now. 01:38:54 (Deoxys is just in ORAS' postgame) 01:38:57 and some things they wanted to be rare were male only, e.g. eevee, starters 01:39:42 Not to mention XY made IV breeding much, much simpler. 01:39:57 I rather liked the old method where you screwed around with the RNG 01:40:16 that said, I was recently doing random-IVs + flawless ditto to make the first round of parents 01:40:21 one of them was quad-flawless (!) 01:40:26 this was just for Subway, so I'm using it 01:40:31 (quad in useful stats, as well) 01:40:46 You have a flawless ditto? Wonderful. 01:41:07 Congrats, it's possible to pass 5 of those to any Pokemon you want. 01:41:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:41:22 Natures can also be inherited. 01:41:36 pikhq_: natures have been inheritable for absolutely ages 01:41:40 since the original R/S, I think 01:41:54 also, destiny knot doesn't determine a specific parent to pass IVs 01:42:16 flawless ditto was one of my earlier RNGs 01:42:35 (the first was an event arceus, which was a bad place to start in retrospect, it took 11 hours and I still didn't get Adamant) 01:43:47 In black and white on route 3 a shiny zorarork or however you spell it has a chance of just appearing 01:43:49 Gen VI changes Destiny Knot to being 5, and the EV items force a specific IV as well. 01:44:00 Still doesn't determine whose IVs you get, but hey. 01:44:07 Dulnes: I don't believe you 01:44:09 actually I can possibly prove it 01:44:25 Yeah, wasn't Zoroark B/W shiny-locked? 01:44:27 A shuckle can have the highest damage though 01:44:50 yep, can't happen 01:45:01 Trivial on XY though. 01:45:02 pikhq_: more to the point, Zoroark and Zorua never appear wild in any version, barring Memory Link 01:45:09 err, any gen 5 version 01:45:09 ais523: XY. 01:45:13 Ah, that. 01:45:14 Yes. 01:45:28 I have a Zorua from Memory Link that can be bred into infinite zoroarks if necessary 01:45:30 Mm then idk where this zorarok came from 01:45:39 (together with straight-30 IVs, just like other Memory Link mons) 01:45:43 Says i met it on route thtee 01:45:55 AH, right. BW2 on, a parent holding an everstone will pass down its nature in particular. 01:45:55 Three* 01:45:55 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:45:56 Hacked 'mon traded on GTS? 01:46:01 That was the exact change. 01:46:05 FireFly: most likely 01:46:15 pikhq_: before that, there's a 50% chance 01:46:21 Right. 01:46:29 I didn't pay much attention to breeding before XY. 01:47:04 Hah, right. It's stupid, but one other thing: Pokeballs are also inherited in gen VI. :) 01:47:49 pikhq_: I did know that 01:47:50 From which of the parents? 01:47:53 mother 01:48:03 Luxury Balls are thus what you should use for catches, if you can 01:48:18 pikhq_: basically, AFAICT, Nintendo have decided to make legality checking as hard as possible 01:48:24 to hide the fact that they're rubbish at it 01:48:47 I'm kinda glad about how they implemented it though... 01:49:00 This basically means that a cheater is not likely to have a huge advantage. 01:49:20 I heard a lvl 100 shuckle if used correctly can deal the largest ammount of damage in the game 01:49:33 Dulnes: "used correctly" = "the opponent cooperates" 01:49:54 No i think.its the moves and items you use 01:50:47 The opponent doesnt have to do much you just need really high defense to stand against its atk until you get your move set out 01:50:59 Dulnes: is your opponent using Shedinja (maximum percent damage) / whatever it is for maximum raw damage? 01:51:15 and no, the opponent also has to not switch while you're putting all the defence drops on them 01:51:23 and not just OHKO the shuckle when you power trick 01:51:57 me, i'm just excited to learn that metronome can do metronome 01:52:10 :5 01:52:14 Bicyclidine, does it recurse? 01:52:45 I like that Surfing on a Sharpedo is much faster now. 01:52:53 It'd be fun if it could be made to recurse multiple times in a row with RNG abuse 01:53:06 pikhq_: Sharpedo specifically? 01:53:22 Surf in general was sped up, and Sharpedo in particular goes twice as fast. 01:53:29 With a malicious RNG it could recurse indefinitely 01:55:18 i haven't played a pokemon in years, but i'm guessing yes because that sounds funny 01:56:23 -!- tlewkow has joined. 01:57:25 Also, the encounter rate in water was reduced a lot; yay. 02:02:40 * pikhq_ has been getting a lot of use out of his 3DS. 02:03:48 hmm, I spent some of last night reverse-engineering the formula for what happens when you use Rock Smash in HGSS 02:06:29 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:23:42 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 02:26:21 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:26:36 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 02:32:08 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 02:32:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:33:16 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 02:35:24 -!- boily has quit (Quit: APPLICATIVE CHICKEN). 02:35:25 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:35:43 -!- tlewkow has joined. 02:45:40 4DS :0 02:45:41 Jk 02:46:09 callforjudgement: Alas, if you want ORAS you should probably wait for the New 3DS to come out. 02:46:49 New? 02:46:51 pikhq_: well, I'm a bit dubious about the whole 3DS thing in the first place, for the same reason I dislike the DSi 02:46:55 What you mean 02:46:58 Nintendo, in a typical show of being-Nintendo, managed to make a new DS model only come out along with a new Pokemon game in Japan. 02:47:05 Dulnes: That's what it's called, the New 3DS. 02:47:10 ... 02:47:15 nice 02:47:19 And does it do? new stuff 02:47:19 callforjudgement: Unlike the DSi, it's a rather notable upgrade in hardware. 02:47:39 callforjudgement: And there's, y'know, games worthwhile on it. 02:48:06 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 02:48:11 Dulnes: Faster CPU, has a second analog stick, has face tracking so that the 3D sucks less. 02:48:13 pikhq_: oh, tons 02:48:18 I'm more worried about things like streetpass 02:48:20 and play coins 02:48:36 Both are only ever used in fairly trivial ways by games. 02:48:36 Ok whats the second analog stick do? 02:48:50 is it equivalent to the "circle pad"? 02:48:57 Im perfectly content with the DS i have 02:48:57 madbr: It's more an analog nub. 02:49:16 Why would they make a new one why not a new system in general 02:49:17 It's presented as a second stick to games coded to read it, like Smash Bros. 02:49:49 It also works for games that used the circle pad addon. 02:49:52 Well the wii U is very slick 02:50:09 Especially all these games they pumped out this yesr 02:50:14 Year* 02:50:25 ais523: I think the most notable use of Streetpass in any 3DS game I'm aware of is the Streetpass Plaza games which come on the system. 02:50:39 can I delete or otherwise get rid of them? 02:50:43 It's otherwise a trivial, very minor feature that is 100% ignorable if you don't care about it. 02:50:48 No, it's part of the firmware. 02:51:11 You cant jailbreak it? 02:51:16 Though, it won't streetpass *at all* unless you go in and set it to. 02:51:41 Basically literally everything that does streetpass asks you if you want to enable streetpass functionality for the game. 02:51:59 Majoras mask remake though 02:52:00 (and you can go into the system settings later and undo it) 02:52:13 wii u finally has its smash bros 02:52:19 Yeh 02:52:56 Nintendo is making every one hyped up for their latest installation to the LoZ series in 2015 02:52:58 It also only streetpasses when the Wifi is on. 02:53:22 If its as cartoony as the trailer i wont bother for it 02:53:30 at least one thing nintendo understands: video games aren't movies 02:53:52 The play coin thing isn't able to be turned off, but it also matters even less. 02:54:07 ais523: Any other concerns? 02:54:23 Whats the point of the puzzles 02:55:08 pikhq_: the reason I didn't impulse-buy one a while back is that apparently they don't come with chargers in the EU 02:55:14 That's just the 3DS XL. 02:55:22 oh, the regular-size one does have a charger? 02:55:22 THough I don't know *why*. 02:55:25 how confusing 02:55:36 Btw i bought my 3ds this June and still havent figured.it all out 02:55:46 Wat ignore the . 02:56:16 "figuredit"? 02:56:29 It uses the same charger as the DSi,FWIW. 02:56:29 The XL has a charger or am i reading that wrong 02:56:37 Figured it out 02:56:44 Dulnes: The US 3DS XL is the only one that comes with a charger. 02:56:50 ?! 02:56:50 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 02:56:54 why 02:57:08 pikhq_: I don't have a DSi, though 02:57:11 because the original is better 02:57:12 Likewise the US New 3DS will be the only one that comes with a charger. 02:57:19 ais523: Oh, agreed. 02:57:29 I have a 3DS and an original DS. :) 02:57:43 ? why does the Us only have chargers 02:57:48 Dulnes: FUck if I know. 02:57:52 so many game designers see what they're doing as building narratives and stories and whatever 02:57:56 Admittedly the 3DS makes the DSi literally pointless. 02:57:56 fuck that 02:58:02 games are not movies 02:58:05 There is nothing the DSi does that the 3DS does not. 02:58:35 LoZ is very good with its time travel sequences that if thought about to long hurt 02:58:35 Yes I agree games are not supposed to be movies; many games have too many cutscenes! 02:58:54 Even though what the DSi does that the DS does not is, well, hardly anything. :) 02:59:10 pikhq_: what the DSi does that the DS does not is why I don't like the DSi, though 02:59:12 I think the most notable is that some games, like BW, can use WPA. 02:59:13 Nintendo has short cutscenes that get straight to the point but still set a story 02:59:15 things like the console having its own memory 02:59:21 and accepting downloads 02:59:26 this is not what I want from a games console at all 02:59:37 Dulnes: I take it you've never played Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 02:59:43 it has cutscenes long enough that they have multiple save points in 02:59:45 Nop 02:59:50 ais523: The 3DS only has its own memory for DSi compat though; uses an SD card for storage otherwise. 02:59:50 also, flashbacks to earlier in the same cutscene 03:00:04 (and it works just fine without an SD card, though downloads won't work then) 03:00:06 what's wrong with just storing things on the cartridge? 03:00:11 ais523: that sounds awful 03:00:11 I happen to prefer just text windows that you can read at your own speed (or skip if you prefer) rather than having a lot of video cutscenes and stuff 03:00:19 Note that 3DS carts *do* save on the cartridge. 03:00:55 "Also since i cannot access the IRC because of some weird issue all i know is that im going to be a detrament to this community" 03:01:00 Nintendo does put the skip option in for some games and all games have the manual text skip in a cutscene 03:01:10 The SD card is used for downloaded games, pictures taken with the camera app, and game patches. 03:01:16 ah right, patches 03:01:19 XY needed several of those 03:01:32 I think save game should be stored in a memory card (such as CF cards), rather than in the console or in the cartridge (although it can be a cartridge that is also a memory card; of course a DVD or CD will be read-only though) 03:01:38 Petch fron Texas 03:01:48 From* 03:02:06 Pokémon don't like people copying saves because you can clone Pokémon that way 03:02:17 so presumably the saves are locked to the SD card somehow, for downloaded versions 03:02:28 Do you have to buy the SD card in other countrys seperately from the console 03:02:48 It comes with inside of it already 03:02:59 Countries* 03:03:26 I swear im having a brain fart 03:04:23 Ah, so that's how they do it. The 3DS on-board storage is accessible to games... 03:04:34 Pokemon stores a small key on the console. 03:04:44 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:04:45 Changing key each time it saves. 03:04:54 for downloads, presumably 03:04:59 Yeah. 03:05:00 I hope you can move the cart between consoles 03:05:03 You can. 03:05:10 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 03:05:48 I suspect that they're using generic infrastructure for downloads there. 03:06:14 In theory, the story of half life 2 is about aliens taking over. In practice, half life 2 is about the story of a mute repeatedly launching filing cabinets at people’s heads. 03:06:16 (just like on the Wii, downloads are console-specific) 03:06:58 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:07:03 ais523: FWIW, I've even tested that. 03:07:20 Just a matter of taking my AS cart and putting it in my girlfriend's 3DS. 03:07:21 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 03:07:35 dammit 03:08:17 at this rate, we're going to have to prove the Pokémon video game TC so that it's ontopic 03:08:27 been done 03:08:48 Yeah, Gen I and II are TC. 03:08:49 http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.1895 i find it hard to believe you haven't seen it, though, so maybe you mean something else? 03:08:57 ... by accident 03:09:08 oh, wait, that's complexity not computation 03:09:11 imo whatever 03:09:24 Gen I and II can be made to execute arbitrary code. :) 03:09:29 hax 03:10:02 Bicyclidine: oh, I have seen that, and realised what it was as soon as I saw the existence of the link 03:10:04 just forgot about it 03:10:10 (also, that's technically PSPACE-complete) 03:10:13 pikhq_: Gen III's very close, too 03:10:21 you should see what people do with the Pomeg Glitch 03:10:33 Yeah, it's not actually arbitrary, but there's a decent bit of PEEK and POKE available with that one. 03:10:38 I have! 03:11:03 * pikhq_ is particularly fond of Pokemon glitched speedrunning 03:11:15 http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pomeg_glitch#Access_Pok.C3.A9mon_beyond_slot_6 03:11:26 it's only a small step from there to completely screwing up memory 03:11:30 as you already have a buffer overflow 03:11:45 Yeah. It's not quite there but it's really close. 03:12:16 And quite entertaining for speedrunning. 03:12:40 Eee hehehehehe. 03:13:26 Alas. I want to eat. I do not want to cook. I don't have leftovers. It is Thanksgiving. 03:13:29 What am I to do. 03:14:03 Probably keep watching MST3K. 03:15:43 I now have a customizable string split function. Go-go gadget easy parsing. 03:15:46 There's a slight bug though. When two delimiters get stuck next to each other you wind up with a little null string in the middle. 03:16:23 * pikhq_ has a gzip util that sucks less than standard, to go along with a zlib that sucks less than standard. 03:16:28 that might be intentional, it's what you'd intuitively expect given what splitting does 03:17:18 Pity the zlib API sucks. 03:17:36 ais523: Yeah. I think it's unavoidable given my algo, and it's easily filter'd for. 03:18:10 pikhq_: sucks less howso? 03:18:30 elliott: Well, for starters it's significantly smaller. 03:18:55 And it actually uses zlib instead of having its own code for it forked from an early version of infozip. 03:19:05 haha, gzip doesn't use zlib? 03:19:08 Nope! 03:20:06 is this because GNU or something 03:20:11 I gotta say though, 4am is a really shitty time to finally figure out how to write your function ... 03:20:24 thankfully it's only 3 am 03:20:27 I think it predates zlib actually. 03:20:37 Ah, yes it does. 03:21:00 elliott: Well, it's 5:19 here, but it was 4 when I woke with a horrible cramp and then couldn't sleep because my brain chose *that moment* to solve my funciton. 03:21:29 *groan* 03:22:00 The opposite-endianness of zlib vs. PNG makes me even more upset now. 03:22:06 zlib was invented for the sole purpose of PNG. 03:22:45 fascinating 03:23:42 It's impressive that GNU hello has 184 lines 03:24:00 It also took me longer because my comments didn't accurately describe what left$ and right$ do, and I'm considering changing what they do to be something more useful. It really seems like they should take the left or right half from a pivot index, rather than taking X from left or right. The latter seems less useful. 03:24:02 pikhq : whatare their respective endianness? 03:24:10 you know what's impressive? defibrillators 03:24:12 Taneb: note that GNU hello exists as a sandbox for people to practice doing development correctly on 03:24:18 just think about it. who came up with that? how did they /test/ it 03:24:26 you should see the Debian packaging for GNU hello, it's just as overengineered for the same reason 03:24:32 ais523, oh really? 03:24:34 Hehehe 03:24:53 "The primary purpose of GNU Hello is to demonstrate how to write other programs that do these things; it serves as a model for GNU coding standards and GNU maintainer practices." 03:24:56 sooooo 03:25:16 PNG uses big-endian for everything. 03:25:26 zlib uses little-endian for its header. 03:25:43 which one came first? 03:25:53 Neither. 03:26:12 Taneb: I find it more amazing that it still can't read mail. 03:26:21 int-e: I thought it actually could 03:26:25 or at least check it 03:26:28 zlib was the compression portion of the PNG reference implementation. 03:27:35 They literally sat down and decided "it'll be big endian here and little endian here". 03:27:38 DVI is big-endian, Z-machine is almost always big-endian (no small-endian files exist), Knuth's MMIX instruction set is big-endian, etc. A lot of DOS programs use file formats with small-endian (since a PC uses small-endian natively). 03:28:08 Also programs that were originally designed for DOS tend to use small-endian even if they are now ported to other systems. 03:28:36 don't most architectures that started 8 bits ended up little endian? 03:28:50 like 6502 if I'm not mistaken 03:29:30 trying to figure where the cultural divide comes from 03:29:34 elliott: ah, yes it could. http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/hello.git/commit/?id=1a962e1e873d382c376921ef41ad234bd1bf4339 03:30:11 int-e: how dare they?! that feature is important to me! 03:31:00 nice "portable" alloca implementation 03:31:45 "Historically, byte order distinction was born out of the mainframe vs. microprocessor approach.[dubious – discuss] Until the 1970s virtually all processors were big-endian." 03:31:54 elliott: What, in gnulib? 03:31:59 in hello 03:32:01 int-e's link 03:32:05 it's probably from gnulib 03:32:09 Ah, yeah. 03:32:25 Wait, no, that's not from gnulib. 03:32:37 Yow that's nasty. 03:32:46 good lord, the manual just keeps going 03:32:52 And incredibly GNU. 03:32:53 it has cray stuff lol 03:33:00 and doesn't actually allocate on the stack? 03:33:10 it has linked lists. alloca using linked lists. why would you ever use this 03:33:33 ifdef emacs... why 03:33:36 Yes 6502 is also small-endian 03:33:41 I'm pretty sure that's actually a property of Cray API. 03:33:55 is this in emacs. oh no 03:33:56 Erm, ABI 03:33:58 the basic difference between big-endian and little-endian is what happens if you cast a pointer from pointing at one size of integer, to pointing at a smaller size 03:34:08 It seems as though the Cray *stack* formed a linked list. 03:34:10 static void find_stack_direction() 03:34:12 big-endian does an approximation scaled based on the full range; little-endian does modulo 03:34:13 ais523: Yes, and for that purpose small-endian works better 03:34:22 and modulo is what's better if the value is actually within the range you want already 03:34:37 wow, it uses "auto" 03:34:43 little endian: x86, 6502, z80, dec alpha, atmel, vax 03:35:37 big endian: 68k, superh, power, other atmel, system/360 03:36:14 oh no. oh nooooo 03:36:37 madbr: New POWER systems from IBM are little endian actually. 03:36:46 There are also systems with no endianness, although these are mostly VMs I suppose; in such a case the file format still has endianness although the runtime won't 03:36:52 pikhq_ : oh? 03:37:04 pikhq_ : it's like they changed the whole ABI? 03:37:11 For reasons I'm not entirely sure of they decided to switch endianness and ABI. 03:37:28 Note though that POWER has always been a bi-endian architecture. 03:37:43 ARM is also bi-endian in theory 03:37:51 in practice, it's little endian 03:37:56 pikhq_: it's not uncommon for a stack to be organized in a linked list of stack frames; this facilitates unrolling the stack (for debuggers, or possibly for delivering exceptions) 03:38:12 pikhq_: a tad old-fashioned, perhaps 03:38:15 Yeah, POWER just had it be big endian in practice. 03:38:18 Some file formats can use both big-endian and small-endian, such as TIFF and Z-machine (although small-endian was never used, and was removed in EZIP). Some formats use the host's endianness (and int size), such as OASYS. 03:38:24 also my dumbass closure compiler 03:38:25 "hooray" 03:38:37 Though run-time switchable. 03:38:54 switchable endian formats sound like a bad idea to me 03:39:18 03:33:32 It seems as though the Cray *stack* formed a linked list. 03:39:20 that's kind of cool 03:39:28 do you want ppl to implement support for your format or do you want to drive them away? 03:39:39 madbr: Yes it does, but, TIFF has that feature. Z-machine had it but they removed that feature, I suppose they then knew how bad it is. 03:39:45 spaghetti stack 03:40:00 Bicyclidine: yeah 03:40:11 IIRC TIFF did it as a weird compromise. 03:40:22 TIFF is one of those "design by committee" standards. 03:41:01 . o O ( People argue about little ends and big ends when we all know that eggs naturally come to rest on their sides... ) 03:41:02 committees... 03:41:21 also the reason why C/C++ still has digraphs after all these years 03:41:33 That's even simpler actually. 03:41:39 IBM *actually uses those*. 03:41:40 the fact endianness is named after a joke argument and people still argue over it is fucking incredible, i love it 03:41:59 Goodnight, chaps. 03:42:03 Some of the EBCDIC code pages actually, really need it. 03:42:04 int-e: If you put into a flat surface it will probably fall down and end on its side, but, it seems that some people can manage to make it to stand up straight! 03:42:06 Middle-endian best endian 03:42:14 And the jerks won't adopt UTF-EBCDIC. 03:42:18 pikhq : ebcdic is also an abomination 03:42:28 Or go out and shoot OS/360 in the head. 03:42:35 EBCDIC is much worse than ASCII, I agree that much. 03:42:48 EBCDIC also was a mistake at the time. 03:44:00 (no, literally: the IBM 360 mainframe was supposed to be ASCII or EBCDIC, with EBCDIC purely for compatibility with BCDIC data. But they couldn't fix bugs in the ASCII mode before they released.) 03:44:06 int-e: side-endian would be, like, 32-bit values a, b, c and d would be laid out in memory as the bytes abcdabcdabcdabcd? 03:44:30 Bicyclidine: to be fair, the joke argument is the basis of a whole book. 03:44:40 int-e: NAh, it's the basis of a chapter. 03:45:15 Lilliput is just a chapter in the Travels. 03:45:40 Admittedly it's the first one. 03:46:12 it's one chapter of four, IIRC 03:46:16 so a quarter of a whole book? 03:46:40 anyway, the chapter was about the way that ridiculous arguments can come about, so naming the computer science debate after the fictional one makes a ton of sense 03:46:48 it's all that series of things that have no purpose other than breaking c++ code when you port it 03:47:00 endianness 03:47:21 file system differences 03:47:32 Writing C on a mainframe is pretty hilarious, too, cause you do it inside a Unix environment. 03:47:39 A Unix environment... with EBCDIC. 03:48:03 elliott: mixed endianness exists. ethernet encodes bytes in a little endian order, but the protocols above usually use big endian byte order. 03:48:29 also: strange C99 features that aren't in C++ 03:48:36 If you need to, don't write the program directly for the mainframe but for an emulator and run the emulator on the mainframe computer. 03:48:44 so ... a 16 bit word would be transmitted as 89ABCDEF01234567 03:48:51 zzo38: Like Java. 03:49:25 int-e: yes; what I meant was more interleaving values with each other 03:49:25 like variable size stack arrays 03:49:28 (I'm numbering bits mathematically; 0 is the bit with value 2^0) 03:49:29 pikhq_: That is a possibility, but it could even be Inferno, or a PC emulator, or whatever 03:49:45 in a library 03:49:47 elliott: yeah, but it's not interleaving that's happening here. 03:49:47 Just naming Java because I know it's actually used on mainframes. 03:50:02 int-e: but interleaving is closer to the egg on its side :) 03:50:02 I suspect other emulators *might* actually need porting effort. 03:50:20 C++ to C linking insanity 03:50:22 zzo38: Of course a still simpler way of doing it is to just require a Linux VM on their hypervisor. 03:50:38 And then you can have your program to use ASCII even if it is a EBCDIC computer. 03:51:01 At which point the only weird thing is that the system console is still one of IBM's really weird terminals rather than a VT100 alike. 03:51:03 pikhq_: How exactly does that work? I don't know a lot about that things 03:51:05 also: /n vs /r/n 03:51:30 there's probably some format out there that genuinely does use the forward slashes :-) 03:51:52 (this is not observable from the OS point of view; the kernel maps between that terminal and a VT100) 03:52:03 zzo38: Easily. Linux just has a mainframe port. 03:52:15 Ah, OK 03:52:15 int-e: nice, that 2^0 thing is a good argument for little endian actually 03:52:48 elliott: AFAICT the only reason the argument came about in the first place is historical accident with the way people write numbes 03:52:48 If you feel like it, and have oodles of money, you can just get an IBM mainframe and run nothing but Linux on it. 03:52:50 *numbrers 03:53:07 A more *realistic* use of this is to get an IBM mainframe, run the IBM hypervisor, and run a *ton* of Linux on it. 03:53:13 pikhq_: actually, ISTR the mainframes are cheaper if you only run Linux on them? 03:53:21 ais523: Probably. 03:53:36 like, they have some way of slightly damaging the hardware so that it won't run the old mainframe OSes, but that Linux can worka round 03:53:39 -!- shikhin has joined. 03:53:39 presumably a reversible one 03:53:43 what kind of specs do modern monolithic IBM mainframes have these days, anyway? 03:53:53 to make sure that you aren't cheating and trying to run something other than Linux on a Linux-only mainframe 03:54:00 The mainframe OS stuff is an excuse to leach money from big old companies anyways. 03:54:17 pikhq_ : so true 03:54:45 old company cannot change due to inertia and people too close to retirement -> milk out $ 03:54:52 pikhq_: as I understand it, mainframes were once the only systems that could do what they do 03:54:54 elliott: 5.5GHz hex core CPUs, up to 101 such CPUs. 03:55:04 and nowadays, there's the reasonable alternative of "huge cluster of commodity hardware" 03:55:21 ais523: Oh, certainly. 03:55:26 pikhq_: and oodles of RAM? 03:55:52 Way back in the day if you were a big enough company to really need computing power, a mainframe was the economical option. 03:56:28 -!- shikhout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:56:45 how much overlap does this have with cobol? 03:56:52 madbr: 100%. 03:57:08 I see :D 03:57:13 IBM mainframe users tend to run COBOL extensively. 03:57:24 me 03:57:25 er 03:57:28 makes sense 03:57:50 I did read somewhere that someone went to a store that sells computer, and asked for a mainframe computer because he/she wanted to learn to program in COBOL. 03:57:57 elliott: They offer 3TB of RAM. 03:58:07 But now we have OpenCOBOL so you can run it on a PC and stuff too. 03:58:08 And then 6.4TB of SSD for swap. 03:58:15 offer as in "up to" or as in what people actually get? nice, either way 03:58:28 As in "if you wish to pay for that much, this is what you get". 03:58:28 I guess that's "only" ~30 gigabytes per CPU if you get all of them 03:58:45 I assume completely maxed-out systems aren't the norm, though... 03:59:29 Actually, they probably are. These big suckers are leased by CPU usage, not by system specs. 04:00:01 lol, they're leased? 04:00:07 Yep! 04:00:15 I think I knew that but forgot 04:00:18 The smaller ones I think are sold. 04:00:20 hit me with some rates 04:01:49 this is like... a collection of everything I want to stay as far as possible from :3 04:02:01 buisiness computing etc 04:02:37 $130,000 a month? 04:03:08 A brand new one can cost millions. 04:03:20 Well, at least now you don't have to do all that worse stuff like IBM mainframes with EBCDIC and so on; now you can use OpenCOBOL for common business oriented programming instead. 04:03:47 it's the kind of architecture that has decimal floating point too, right? :D 04:03:51 The small one we have at work is more like $80k total. 04:04:06 (Of course you needn't even use COBOL if you want to use other programming languages instead.) 04:04:14 (we're not a mainframe shop, but unfortunately we have clients that are, so we need to have one to test against) 04:04:54 -!- bb010g has joined. 04:07:00 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:07:32 It is probably a good thing I find really weird computers entertaining. 04:07:54 pikhq_: well, when C-INTERCAL was first announced, it was sent to a community for people entertained by old and weird computers 04:08:00 because there weren't really esolang communities at the time 04:08:22 It is also a *really* good thing that the mainframe stuff is kinda just a portion of my job rather than the whole thing. 04:08:34 I imagine I'd go mad if I did that all day every day. 04:09:15 dude, I had a java project once, and I was crawling up the curtains 04:09:53 (for future reference: parsing COBOL with yacc is irritating, cause IBM doesn't believe in BNF) 04:10:16 IBM believes in nothing. 04:10:25 IBM believes in money. 04:10:34 And the acquisition of wealth. 04:10:35 Same difference. ;) 04:11:12 ibm is the original out of touch technocratic company 04:11:19 Not that there is anything wrong with money, but, *love of* money is the root of all evil....... 04:11:25 madbr: So true. 04:11:34 they're like microsoft squared in that respect 04:11:49 yes. 04:12:04 Parsing COBOL with yacc is irritating? Can you describe how exactly? 04:12:11 @google ibm company songbook 04:12:12 http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/08/tripping-through-ibms-astonishingly-insane-1937-corporate-songbook/ 04:12:12 Title: Tripping through IBM’s astonishingly insane 1937 corporate songbook | Ars T... 04:12:15 Even in the beginning, it was basically IBM, and everyone else. IBM does things the IBM way. 04:12:35 zzo38: Well, see, the syntax is just *not very well specified* and only *barely* context-free. 04:13:02 Also, tokenization is god damned insane. 04:13:25 pikhq_: It isn't specified? What? Can't you look at how OpenCOBOL does it? 04:13:44 There's little details like "the first X and last Y columns are comments"... 04:14:00 pikhq_: Sounds like me trying to make sense of BASIC, *10. 04:14:16 Those things can be done in the tokenizer before you tell the parser what to do 04:14:33 And "if there's character X in this column, you concatenate it with the previous line except when you're in a string literal, in which case you skip to the next instance of '"' and then concatenate the rest of the line". 04:14:42 zzo38: Unfortunately not really. 04:14:56 IBM COBOL is heavy on the non-standard extensions as well. 04:15:11 pikhq_: Maybe in yacc it is difficult, but did you try using Lemon? It is an alternative to yacc 04:15:14 Which is all the more amusing because standard COBOL died. 04:15:20 And in my opinion, Lemon is much better 04:15:22 I didn't know about Lemon. 04:15:30 And I don't care now, because It Is Done. 04:16:13 Ah, OK, but maybe you can look at anyways in case it help later on for something. 04:16:40 Lemon uses no global variables so you can run multiple parsers at once, and the tokenizer calls the parser instead of the parser calling the tokenizer. 04:16:47 (Lemon is also in public domain.) 04:16:49 pikhq_: how does that string literal thing work? 04:17:22 elliott: You basically specify that a line is a continuation of the previous line, right? 04:17:55 pikhq_: right, but where does the " come into it? 04:18:26 elliott: It looks like this: 04:18:48 abcde 01 LINE IS "This is a line. It is being continued. 04:19:01 edfgh- "This is a continuation". 04:19:09 devil magic. 04:19:13 nice 04:19:15 LINE has "This is a line. It is being continued.This is a continuation" 04:19:23 what about edfgh- qqqqq"test" 04:19:30 Syntax error. 04:19:44 imagine more spaces if that matters 04:19:53 The contents between the continuation marker and the quote delimiter have to be whitespace. 04:20:00 any whitespace? :p 04:20:33 Newline will terminate the line, so that won't work. 04:20:41 Tab will work though. 04:21:02 As will vertical tab I think? 04:21:07 does it scan for the " just to let you indent continued strings? 04:21:13 Yes. 04:22:10 And the continuation line madness is really necessary. All text outside of columns 8 to 72 are comments. 04:22:18 ...does LINE IS "test""foobar" even work? 04:22:24 No. 04:22:25 oh wait 04:22:28 I guess it'd be "test"foobar" lol 04:22:35 what a syntax 04:24:27 It's pretty impressive in its own way, with how it manages to be so utterly unlike anything you're used to. 04:29:28 -!- dts|feasting has changed nick to dts. 04:35:01 I bought a book on COBOL because I confused it with CORBA 04:36:32 kindof wondering what would be a good language for creating chiptune instruments 04:37:15 Depends what kind of chiptune instruments, I think 04:37:37 also probably has to be as graphical as possible 04:37:59 since sound designers rarely want to deal with text 04:38:26 and text is a problem in most sound design/music production software anyways (DAWs) 04:38:33 Well, I really don't know; I know stuff such as Pure Data exists 04:38:50 (the host program will capture your keyboard events, which is bad) 04:39:14 and the typical user wants to be presented choices, not guess which choices are valid 04:43:39 -!- cluid has joined. 04:43:40 hi 04:43:52 fluid 04:44:01 Bicycle fluid 04:44:20 yes 04:48:28 Sgeo: I wonder if anyone ever bought a book on Pascal because they confused it with Haskell 04:51:10 https://web.archive.org/web/20041103230415/http://geeksden.sourceforge.net/geekywiki/REGXY 04:51:16 May I copy this verbatim onto esowiki? 04:51:20 as "original specification" 04:51:47 "utherwise" 04:52:30 only public domain stuff can go on the wiki :/ 04:52:33 also I want to write a modern implementation, what langauge should I use? 04:53:55 cluid: I don't know? Possibly with Perl? It uses regular expressions. 04:54:13 ill look into perl 04:54:29 I think Perl is a bit confusing though 04:54:34 -!- Oren has joined. 04:56:09 no matter how many times I hear the word 'statistics' it still sounds like 'sadistic' 04:56:48 sadistically speaking, 1 in seven people are afflicted by this condition? 05:03:38 Oren : thos belies the fact that english is full of "T"s, "S"s, "D"s and "C"s :D 05:03:51 especially t and s 05:05:21 TS... no! bad oren's brain! do not make that stand for anything! 05:06:33 I can translate regexy into perl easily 05:06:54 http://lpaste.net/115247 05:06:56 Here's how 05:07:03 can wre write a regexy program to do this? 05:08:42 a slight problem is that labels in regexy may not be valid labels in perl 05:09:12 oh.. and lavbels in regex are comuputed from the regex.. so this translation isn't complete 05:10:31 cluid: btw i put the updated link to zzo38's REGXY page on the esowiki 05:10:40 thanks a lot oerjan , i was going to do that 05:12:19 http://zzo38computer.org/regxy/adbinery.txt 05:12:25 actualy does this use computed labels or not? I think it does 05:12:34 but i was mistaken 05:13:43 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:13:51 Oren: tzatzikilly, this is a big problem hth 05:13:54 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 05:13:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:14:03 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 05:14:32 It doesn't looks computed label to me? 05:14:36 -!- Dulnes has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:14:41 thanks, I misread the code 05:14:49 so RegXy doesn't support computed labels? 05:15:05 it woudl be nice if it didnt 05:16:12 it doesn't 05:16:34 I got an infinite loop trying to convert adbinery to perl 05:17:20 http://lpaste.net/115248 05:17:21 that works now 05:18:04 Looks like not supporting computed labels from how I can see? 05:18:10 ok! 05:18:18 i will have to use /s modifer in perl 05:18:24 to treat multi line strings as a single string 05:18:31 I found a Visual Basic code and looks like not accepting computed labels. 05:18:32 so that I can implement a regxy -> perl translation 05:19:59 -!- Dulnes has joined. 05:20:14 What an awful way to end thanksgiving ;-; 05:20:25 happy thanksgiving 05:20:48 Merry Easter to you too 05:21:10 happy birthday 05:22:19 whose birthday is it? 05:22:26 Anyways my wife is pregnant and i hate children this is awful 05:22:33 Much thank give 05:23:48 not cool 05:24:12 Yup 05:24:19 I'm not sure I believe that you have a wife 05:24:33 K and? 05:25:03 Is not in mood. 05:25:28 r u drunk? 05:25:33 why do you hate children 05:25:51 They are loud sirens of pure malice 05:26:00 don't you already have children 05:26:02 isn't that a good thing? 05:26:06 Yes 05:26:12 you were one at one time 05:26:13 I dont want another one 05:26:27 And my parents hated me 05:26:49 So try to do better than them 05:26:53 duh 05:26:56 Pfft 05:27:11 I have 3 kids i think thats enough for life 05:27:44 is this the time when I give Dulnes a warning for being offtopic? 05:27:57 offtopicness warnings in #esoteric is hard, because it's offtopic so often 05:27:59 Visual studio support 05:28:12 and yet some sorts of offtopicness are more obnoxious than others and it's hard to explain why 05:28:14 -!- oerjan has set topic: Child support channel | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 05:28:20 :/ 05:28:24 its ok 05:28:27 there, no longer off topic hth 05:28:32 I will finish the RegXy 05:28:40 then we can be on topic 05:28:50 i have 23 cousins 05:28:57 -!- ais523 has set topic: To kill a zombie, you must kill its parents | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 05:28:58 Well then 05:29:04 there, now it's on /both/ topics 05:29:06 while being confusing 05:29:11 what? 05:29:22 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 05:29:22 Whats that supposed to mean ais523 05:29:31 see? 05:29:45 * Dulnes dies 05:29:51 i thought that rule was for vampires 05:30:04 you kill dracula his minions also die 05:31:01 -!- Dulnes has set topic: There aren't any topics| https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 05:31:05 btw if you didn't want another kid and you already have three, did you consider birth control 05:31:20 Well idk maybe it didnt work 05:31:25 right 05:31:29 Dulnes: you put a typo in the topic :-( 05:31:35 We were using birth control 05:31:49 God damnit 05:31:50 -!- ais523 has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, development and deployment | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 05:31:55 and you know what this means 05:32:01 or you could try men instead that would prevent babies 05:32:12 :| 05:32:22 or have a sex change 05:32:23 it would! 05:32:43 These are terrible ideas 05:32:54 As they would break apart my family 05:32:56 buy your wife a strapon 05:32:59 let's not, re: all of this 05:33:08 Oren please 05:33:18 Ok i'll stop... 05:33:30 are you religious? 05:33:36 No 05:34:17 Sex changes cost money/ cheating on wife also causes divorce/money loss 05:34:38 yeah I was just making a bad joke there 05:35:05 * elliott sighs 05:35:15 Mmm whatever im going to drown myself in pie. 05:35:49 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523. 05:35:51 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +m. 05:36:01 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott. 05:36:02 hi 05:36:05 in most channels, I have to get annoyed and forcibly change topic when something like this happens 05:36:11 by coming up with an interesting tangents 05:36:14 I'm all out of interesting tangents 05:36:18 but I've realised I can do this 05:36:19 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o ais523. 05:36:22 don't worry the topic is now fish 05:36:23 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -m. 05:36:24 Ok ill stop talking 05:36:26 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott. 05:36:42 -o'ing other ops is my favourite rogue op move 05:37:07 #2 is the kickflip 05:37:07 help 05:37:10 ([^\/]*) 05:37:16 Hf 05:37:26 I thought I could match anything that isn't a backslash 05:37:31 what /is/ a kickflip? 05:37:36 oДO 05:37:36 but I actually need to include back slash escaped backslahes 05:37:37 Maybe she was mistaken but whatever gnight 05:37:53 ais523: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickflip 05:37:55 cluid: you might take a look at my /// interpreter it has similar issues 05:38:02 I could use this (([^\/]|\\\/)*) 05:38:04 elliott: I mean in the context of IRC 05:38:08 \/ thought that was a V 05:38:15 oerjan, I invented a language similar to /// but less cool 05:38:16 ais523: me too 05:38:23 your /// stuff is very awesome 05:38:29 thanks! 05:38:39 I have a regex for matching slash-delimited backslash-escaping stuff in aiake 05:38:47 let me find it 05:38:49 *aimake 05:39:06 still haven't figured out how I'll come up with my next horrible language 05:39:08 push @aipath, $1 while $objvalue =~ m=((?:[^\\\/:]|\\.)*)( / | $ )=gsx; 05:39:16 oh yeah 05:39:24 now I'm trying to figure out specifically what that regex matches 05:39:24 backslashed backslashes 05:39:28 I forgot about those 05:39:34 (([^\/]|\\\/|\\\\)*) 05:39:34 hmm 05:39:36 and looking at it, seems I missed a ?: 05:39:43 this could be enough for me maybe I hope 05:39:46 which will have efficiency effects 05:39:48 is the mandelbrot set turing complete? 05:39:49 maybe you really need that \$ grouped 05:39:50 cluid: best to do it correctly 05:39:54 I have to use two loops in my code 05:39:57 the mandelbrot set is a set 05:39:59 actuall y many, in two groups 05:40:03 it's not, uh, what's the word 05:40:05 one for santizing labels into perl valid labels 05:40:13 well i guess it is recursive 05:40:13 another for transforming RegXy rules into perl rules 05:40:18 big fucking deal imo 05:40:20 not 05:40:20 besides, \\. is easier than \\\/|\\\\ and more correct, at least in the case of /// 05:40:26 that was sarcsm 05:40:35 ais523, oh nice idea ! thank you 05:40:51 bicyclidine: yes but there's no upper bound on the number of iterations required to find if a number is in the set 05:41:13 I wonder how regex $n works 05:41:14 that seems a lot like the halting problem to me 05:41:16 i will have to count 05:41:55 well, finding the limit set of some mappings is turing equivalent. 05:42:07 don't think that's the case for mandelbrot though. it's just squaring. 05:42:18 incidentally, something else I'm annoyed at (and vaguely related to the LCRNG maths question I asked in here a few days ago) 05:42:33 is when you have this nice elegant solution to something that isn't quite your problem 05:42:35 it might be possible to build an accumulator out of the real and imaginary part 05:43:08 $i =~ s/(^|\n)([^\/]*)\+(([^\/]|\\.)*)\/(([^\/]|\\.)*)\/(\n|$)/$1$2_plus$3$5$7/s; 05:43:11 is not working :( 05:43:33 something that isn't quite my problem: you have sets of boolean variables (some variables appear in multiple sets); you want to find a mapping of variables to true/false so that there's an even number of true variables in each set 05:43:51 howd the lcrng thing work out in the end? 05:43:51 I found a nice algorithm to solve this in O(number of variables^2) 05:44:10 brute force? 05:44:24 newsham: I didn't solve it, even though it seems solvable, due to running out of ideas; however, I decided that I possibly had a "how can I use X to do Y?" problem 05:44:31 brute force is 2^n 05:44:35 and are looking at other potential ways to do Y, without doing X, even though X would have been cool 05:44:45 also I wrote a brute forcer that works for n=32 05:44:53 ais523: easy: don't set any to true. O(1) 05:44:57 n=64 would only take a few times longer than my expected lifetime 05:45:12 myname: there's one specific variable that has to be set to true 05:45:52 n=64 prob solvable on cloud clusters in your lifetime, or even this year 05:46:09 right, that was on my laptop 05:46:11 ais523: it seems like you've reinvented XORSAT? 05:46:21 oerjan: right, there was almost certainly a name for it 05:46:50 (([^\/]|\\.)*) 05:46:53 can I write this with less brackets 05:47:13 and, from a different point of view, reinvented linear programming 05:47:23 yes the outer breackets are unecessay 05:47:29 use $& 05:47:31 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 05:47:35 ais523: XORSAT is much simpler than linear programming 05:47:56 it's just solving a matrix equation (mod 2) 05:48:00 sadly, my /actual/ problem expressed in these terms are: you have a number of integer variables (mod n), and a number of linear polynomials of those variables 05:48:17 but the polynomials are inequalities rather than direct equalities 05:48:25 so you can't use any of the normal linear programming tricks 05:48:39 linear integer programming is NP-complete 05:48:57 oerjan: I was thinking of the subset of linear programming that's just solving matrix equations 05:49:01 which is a reasonably large and useful subset 05:49:08 (and bigger than xorsat) 05:49:28 well yes. but it doesn't work with inequalities. 05:49:46 nothing I can think of works with inequalities and it is annoying me 05:49:50 hmm 05:50:00 the mandelbrot set is connected 05:50:06 prove it! 05:50:08 oh hm you have (mod n). but i think linear integer programming is NP-complete even with just {0,1} 05:50:14 I wonder if this means that it cannot be turing complete 05:50:24 cluid: the wikipedia article says so 05:50:31 madbr: almost certainly those facts are unconnected 05:50:36 its a joke beacuse it's hard to prove that 05:50:38 *those questions 05:51:16 the hard part is local connection. 05:51:16 oerjan : so in otherwose, almost certainly no? :D 05:51:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:51:42 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 05:52:33 integer programming is NP-complete -- lecture today was on that fact 05:52:42 amongothers 05:53:27 in fact it is NP-hard 05:53:43 ais523: btw aaronson and friends think of XORSAT as "that problem which is so similar to SAT that many purported proofs of P != NP can be discarded by checking that they would prove XORSAT not in P because they fail to distinguish any real property of them" 05:53:50 i uh, don't think it could be np-complete without being np-hard 05:53:56 (not a quote but a paraphrase) 05:54:02 oerjan: oh, I think of 2SAT like that 05:54:10 yeah that's another 05:54:18 oh right. i'm still learning this stuff... 05:54:23 xorsat might be better, though, I don't have much experience in finding fallacies in P≠NP proofs 05:54:30 it's ok, complexity is garbage 05:54:39 what's more common, incidentally, claims of P=NP proofs or claims of P≠NP proofs? 05:54:46 how about a randomized algoritthm then? 05:54:54 ais523: that purported proof by deolalikar (sp?) a few years ago failed on that test 05:54:55 np is nondeterministic 05:54:57 so uh 05:55:11 I assume the latter, because unless a P=NP proof is existence rather than constructive, it's normally possible just to run it on a computer and see what happens 05:55:11 ais523: i don't remember 05:55:32 ais523: it might depend on the level of crankiness involved 05:56:15 Bicyclidine: my favourite NP definition is "an problem is NP if it can be solved by a trustworthy P-time checker and untrustworthy TC oracle working together, such that the solution is always correct if the oracle happens to be trustworthy, and has no false positives regardless of what the oracle does" 05:56:26 that's a lot of words 05:56:36 Bicyclidine: you need a lot of words, sadly 05:56:49 How do I get the whole of STDIN as a string in perl? 05:57:21 helping a student with this, we came up with the (possibly slightly mathematically unsound) "a problem is NP if a P-time algorithm with access to randomness has no false positives, and no false negatives with probability 1" 05:57:37 cluid: {local $/; $string = <>} 05:58:00 cluid: although that will read a file specified on the command line if there is one, in preference to stdin 05:58:05 this is normally what you want but not always 05:58:10 thats really nice thank you ! 05:58:24 -!- ZombieAlive has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:59:35 madbr: i'm pretty sure you can easily construct a set that is connected and such that it's TC to check membership, yes: pick your favorite TC set of integers and connect with arcs or something. 06:02:21 how about a randomized algoritthm then? <-- the current "most believed hypothesis" by experts is that (RNG) randomness doesn't give you anything beyond P 06:03:22 does it at least make the constant teenier? 06:03:31 oerjan: at least without some method of comparing the possible random results 06:03:43 hmm, there are P-time PRNGs that are pretty good 06:03:58 How do I get the whole of STDIN as a string in perl? <-- hey i _told_ you to look at my /// interpreter! 06:04:09 it'd be something quite spectacular if there was an algo that worked with true-randomness, but not a CSPRNG 06:06:10 ais523: the hypothesis is based on the the theory that there are P-time PRNGs so good that they cannot be revealed as pseudo in P-time 06:06:14 *-the 06:06:42 maybe true randomness doesn't exist? 06:06:43 although no one has proved they exist, as it's something stronger than P != NP 06:07:04 right, P=NP would mean that such PRNGs could definitely be proven pseudo in P-time 06:07:14 Oren: quite possible but the mathematical concept of a true random algorithm still does. 06:10:06 iirc it follows from the also hypothesized existence of cryptographic hashes 06:11:48 http://lpaste.net/115258 06:12:07 do you think adbinery is wrong or my translation? 06:12:14 the output seems wrong 06:12:56 Either could be wrong (possibly both) 06:13:09 yes but which? 06:13:38 I haven't checked 06:14:00 10101 = 21 06:14:06 11 = 3 06:14:12 -!- tlewkow has joined. 06:14:16 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Pics or it didn't happen). 06:14:23 24 = 11000 06:14:41 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Some other time). 06:16:49 cluid: One thing that at least is wrong is that in Perl's regexps, you use plain + instead of (sed, POSIX re) \+ for "one or more". 06:17:36 Though I guess that applies to whatever the upper block is too, now that I look at it. 06:17:41 (Sorry, just woke up.) 06:17:53 he's trying to match + the operator plus 06:18:22 oh 06:18:25 I havea bug in my translation 06:19:09 -!- tlewkow has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:22:35 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Quit: Quit). 06:29:31 ok 06:29:38 I completed a self hosting regxy -> pl translator 06:29:49 should I add this an ddetails to the wiki page? 06:41:27 please advice 06:42:48 cluid: most commonly you'd post it somewhere else and add a link 06:43:22 you could post it on the wiki if you had no better options, but normally there are better options; I know graue (who used to own esolangs.org) has volunteered to host almost arbitrary esolang compilers/interpreters/stuff on esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files 06:43:33 but I'm not sure anyone's asked him to do that in ages 06:43:43 ok 06:44:02 thanks 06:44:26 i could put it on a paste bin but it might disappear 06:46:29 some things do get posted to the wiki, and I'm not personally against that, but I know some other people are 06:47:41 :S 06:47:51 I wanted to make the RegXY article better 06:48:20 some people use a user subpage and link it from mainspace 06:49:22 I think everyone agrees that the impl should be posted somehow 06:49:25 just there's debate as to how 06:49:37 I think if it isn't too long you can post directly on the wiki 06:50:11 Note that the wiki page normally isn't a valid program; however you can avoid this by using Perl's documentations features I suppose 06:50:28 its only 10 lines 06:50:49 As long as it is in the public domain too, it is OK then 06:51:19 if it's only 10 lines, posting it directly's probably fine 06:51:24 make sure to escape it properly, though 06:51:37 is there a program to escape it? 06:51:39 for me 06:51:39 (wrapping in
 to start and 
works for most programs) 06:51:42 ah 06:51:43 great 06:53:37 ais523: That works for display, but not for download unless you add # or Perl documentation commands or whatever. 06:54:01 zzo38: it's not bad for download, you can copy-paste either from the displayed version or the wikitext 06:54:15 For example http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF/Implementation?action=raw&ctype=text/css is a valid Literate Haskell program. 06:54:27 Can I put the reverse example code? 06:54:47 from here https://web.archive.org/web/20041103230415/http://geeksden.sourceforge.net/geekywiki/REGXY 06:55:20 I don't know the license from that archived wiki, although the stuff in my directory is in public domain so you can use it 06:55:38 thanks! 06:55:41 If the code is small enough it would probably be OK though 06:56:00 cluid: the wiki is public domain things only, which is about the most restrictive thing possible in terms of what you can post to it 06:56:54 I don't know enough about Perl programming to know the best way to do a similar thing with Perl than what I have done with Haskell there. 06:58:42 [wiki] [[REGXY]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41223&oldid=41218 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+1917) Improved language definition and added examples along with implementation 07:01:32 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:01:55 [wiki] [[User:Cluid Zhasulelm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41224&oldid=41155 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+75) 07:04:03 [wiki] [[Talk:Nonsense Query List]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41225&oldid=31459 * Zzo38 * (+111) 07:08:55 [wiki] [[REGXY]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41226&oldid=41223 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+467) 99 bottles of beer example 07:12:10 [wiki] [[User:Cluid Zhasulelm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41227&oldid=41224 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+227) wikis 07:24:00 -!- tlewkow has joined. 07:24:35 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:28:55 -!- tlewkow has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:44:07 what was the japanese blogger saying about MMMNBF? 07:48:30 um, send me the page in question and I can try to translate. 07:57:07 -!- Patashu has joined. 07:57:25 i dont know what page[s] it is 07:57:27 if you mean copyright or whatever, the blog doesn't seem to have that info 07:57:52 what information are you looking for? 07:57:54 I was just curiouw what their views were 07:58:02 if they had questions about it or who they were 07:58:34 The blooger is the language designer. afaik. 07:58:57 corect? 07:59:09 ah, i didnt know that 08:00:10 I'll translate the whole page of the main post 08:00:18 perhaps make it more clear 08:00:35 title : まだ名前のないBrainfuck風スタック言語、略して MNNBFSL 08:01:17 a not yet named brainfuck style stack language, for short mnnbfsl 08:01:31 というのを考えてみた。 08:01:42 I have been thinking about it 08:01:57 インタープリタの実装は yshl/MNNBFSL ? GitHub に。 08:02:12 I see! 08:02:41 "an implementation of an interpreteris here, github" 08:02:57 データスタックとリターンスタックの 2本のスタックがあります。 08:03:21 "there are two stacks, a data stack and a return stack" 08:03:35 the third-to-last paragraph: "It feels quite similar to Brainfuck, but [ and ] has been repurposed for program counter manipulation instead of jump. Forward jump can be done by getting PC via [, but backward jump would require getting PC and some adjustments to it and is slightly harder." 08:03:56 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 08:04:02 スタック 2本あればチューリング完全らしいから 08:04:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:04:33 Because if there are two stacks it is turing complete ish, 08:04:38 the second-to-last and last paragraphs: "It keeps PC so I guess it is harder to optimize than Brainfuck when it comes to the transpiler to C." "At least it is better than Brainfuck that the behavior on EOF is defined..." 08:04:44 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 08:04:56 チューリング完全なんじゃないかな。 08:05:16 "I wonder if it is not turing complete" 08:09:09 hmm, so despite the effort we're putting into translating this 08:09:13 it is nonetheless just a BF derivative? 08:09:38 its an intersting BF derivative 08:10:21 looks like it is a bit different from BF 08:10:28 -!- qwertyo has joined. 08:10:34 the problem is jusggleing the stacks 08:10:57 the return address is not always there when you need it 08:11:36 in any case from my reading, we have the spec right for all the instructions 08:12:50 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 08:14:06 [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41228&oldid=41216 * Orenwatson * (+1) count of instructions was wrong 08:15:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:16:05 its 08:16:10 actually only superficially related to brainfuck 08:16:21 its based on two stacsk not a tape 08:16:32 and you have to compute jumps, not matching brackets 08:16:53 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:17:36 cluid: um, two stacks is a tape. 08:18:27 the blogger's profile says: "I am a biological human, unrelated to the Yokohama Shootout Hockey League" 08:19:12 so his name is just: yshl 08:20:49 he has bought a lot of manga, most of hisposts are listing the manga he bought that week. 08:21:34 interesting 08:24:07 [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41229&oldid=41228 * Orenwatson * (+84) added apparent author info 08:26:51 b_jonas: "Two stacks and a tape walk into a bar..." 08:27:09 (I don't know, it just sounded like a setup for a joke; no idea how it'd continue.) 08:30:11 hm 08:30:25 i can't translate brainfuck into MMBFSL 08:30:33 a tape in bf is right infinite 08:30:41 but the stacks start empty in MMBFSL 08:32:38 -!- tlewkow has joined. 08:39:08 cluid: Possibly you can use a tape layout like "1 a 1 b 1 c 0" for data "a b c", and make the analogue of > to check the 0/1 flag and extend the tape. 08:39:43 (Could be trickier than that in a sufficiently tarpitty language.) 08:39:54 (I haven't been following the discussion.) 08:40:04 that's a good idea 08:40:32 elliott: I evaded the bait by cleverly being asleep, but OTOH I don't have an answer either, I probably would just have mumbled something incoherent about the branch predictor's hardware return stack. 08:41:35 -!- dts has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:43:14 -!- dts has joined. 08:56:43 I sent the blogger a (no doubt poorly written) email asking for more information. 08:57:02 i dont believe you 08:57:18 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:57:56 why not? I really did send him a n email. it's 6pm now so 08:58:05 (in japan that is) 08:58:15 idk man. you just seem really shifty 08:58:18 so he should be home from work soon 08:58:21 cool Oren , kep me updated when you get a reply please? 08:58:24 fizzie, can you ban dts? 08:58:33 lololol 08:59:05 hehe 09:05:58 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 09:05:58 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 09:24:36 -!- Dulnes has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:27:30 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Binary_combinatory_logic 09:27:36 is this really string rewriting 09:27:52 its term rewrting not string rewriting 09:27:58 11101xyz --> 11xz1yz 09:28:02 its not characters x,y,z but terms 09:30:53 -!- qwertyo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:31:08 mhm that's right 09:40:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:40:26 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Infinity this page is really annoying 09:41:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:46:20 huh. 09:46:21 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cheese 09:47:06 Does it really say "Infinity closely approximates the amount of nonsense on this page." or am I imagining things? 09:47:31 cheese++ is far better tbh 09:47:53 dts, you should please design cheese+++ (and implement it in cheese++) 09:48:16 what would cheese+++ have in it? 09:49:02 Oh I see, the BCL page is not even talking about string rewriting, it's just a category. 09:49:31 it could use ideas from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cheeses 09:49:51 hehe 09:52:51 it can be viewed as a sort of conditional string rewriting. "Kxy -> x if x and y are produced by the following CFG...", but I have yet to see such a formalism. 09:53:22 (CFGs are, of course, string rewrite systems) 09:54:01 I dint think that 09:54:22 Context-free grammar? 09:55:16 consider the rules S -> 00; S -> 01; S -> 1SS, and look at which strings not containing S can be produced from S. 09:55:29 that CFG describes the syntax well 09:55:43 but the language is defined by term rewriting 09:55:55 yes. 09:56:06 so it should be moved out of string rewrite category 09:56:43 or perhaps not? is "term" a term or is it the set of strings defined under "syntax"? 09:57:57 You can view it either way. Which means I don't feel strongly about the category. 09:58:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:58:53 And since oerjan added the category I would leave the decision to him. 09:59:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 09:59:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:00:27 it can be a string rewriting system only if it has infinitely many rules 10:01:13 so 1100xy --> x denotes all rules 11000000 --> 00, 11000001 --> 00, ... 10:01:32 if you treat it as aterm rewrite system it is just 2 rules 10:01:51 also it talks about "subterms of a given term" so it should be a term rewrite system 10:06:25 cluid: I would normally agree, but there are notions of string rewriting where the rules may contain variables that represent arbtitrary substrings. (So instead of a term rewriting with unary function symbols, you'd have to do term rewriting with constants and one AC [associative, commutative] symbol.) 10:06:50 ok i was just looking at the thue system thing on wikipedia 10:07:13 on what you're saying it makes sense to call it string rewriting 10:07:19 And in that contaxt 1100xy --> x fits perfectly, except that it would allow steps like 11001010 -> 10:07:34 context (ouch) 10:08:51 And the category is not overflowing with pages, so a broad definition of "string rewriting" seems appropriate. 10:09:02 yeah, thanks for your input! 10:18:37 -!- nooga has joined. 10:29:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:32:45 so is it easy to recognize CFGs inside a string? 10:33:04 maybe this is similar to regex 10:33:21 s/11SS/$1/ 10:35:37 idea for esolang: Write a CFG, then write CFG substitution rules to define a program 10:35:49 then you can implement BCL in it for example, quite easily 10:53:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:54:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:03:24 -!- dts has changed nick to dts|Zzzz. 11:14:25 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 11:14:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 11:14:49 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 11:18:22 -!- boily has joined. 11:18:29 -!- dts|Zzzz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:20:12 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:37:30 Hi 11:38:30 chellouid. 11:39:12 hm the esolang wiki is down 11:39:20 but I was reading the BCL page and this is interesting, 11:40:03 Gregor: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/esolangs.org 11:40:05 you can define it in two steps, first syntax: S --> 00 | 01 | 1 S S 11:41:00 boily: I'm provisionally going to suggest it's probably that shifty VPS provider at work again. 11:41:02 and then rewrite laws: 100 S:x S:y --> x, 101 S:x S:y S:z --> 11 x z 1 y z 11:41:19 boily: (Doesn't answer to SSH, so I can't do much.) 11:41:21 this implements BCL 11:41:30 interpreter 11:41:33 you could also implement other programs in this way 11:43:34 fizzie: I wouldn't be surprised at all. :/ 11:43:49 cluid: this sounds an awful lot like an L-system... 11:44:00 its much more powerful than L system 11:44:28 you can match an arbitrary CFG in the string to provide a replacement, rather than just a character 11:44:48 and your rules can shrink the string as well as grow it, so you can compute more things 11:47:09 I don't think the term "L-system" is technically restricted to having only context-free rules, even if that's the most common case. 11:47:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-system#Context_sensitive_grammars is counted as a "variation". Not that there are probably any "official" definitions. 11:50:39 I should use different symbos for the CFG production, and the rewrite rules 11:50:41 but i dont know 11:50:47 ==> maybe for rewrite 11:50:59 or => 11:51:16 I suggest >>=. 11:51:20 it's cool that you can implement BCL in 2 lines, maybe there are other program you can write it in 11:58:14 -!- tlewkow has joined. 12:00:13 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:02:37 -!- tlewkow has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 12:06:42 -!- boily has quit (Quit: MANIFOLD CHICKEN). 12:20:24 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:20:58 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:23:09 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 12:28:15 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 12:28:54 -!- idris-bot has joined. 12:34:49 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:35:25 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 12:35:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:37:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:44:21 -!- ZombieAlive has joined. 12:58:05 -!- GeekDude has joined. 14:13:01 -!- cluid has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:28:41 them esowiki iz daun 14:28:50 Yes. It is a shame. 14:29:34 @messages-loid 14:29:34 oerjan said 14h 55m 31s ago: which is usually suffixed with (embed) <-- if you want people to follow conventions you should actually state them on the website hth 14:29:49 @message oerjan It's not my website 14:29:50 Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages? 14:30:04 @bell oerjan It's not my website 14:30:04 Consider it noted. 14:31:01 You did say "we". 14:31:26 So it's not your (singular) website, but arguably it's then your (plural) website. 14:32:23 (Unless it was the kind of passive-voice-style "we".) 14:34:11 Gregor: I guess we could nickping you to maybe have a poke and/or a prod at the management console (if they have one) of the esolangs VPS, to see if it says anything informative. (It's down w.r.t. HTTP, SSH at least at the moment.) 14:46:05 -!- Oren has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:51:36 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:52:16 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 14:56:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:58:06 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 14:58:52 -!- HackEgo has joined. 15:03:23 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 15:06:39 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:09:21 -!- Oren has joined. 15:15:11 -!- mig22_ has joined. 15:15:48 -!- mig22_ has changed nick to mig22. 15:18:17 -!- mig22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:19:13 -!- mig22 has joined. 15:19:20 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:21:20 -!- drdanmaku has joined. 15:22:51 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:34:58 -!- mig22 has quit (Quit: mig22). 15:36:11 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 15:38:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:42:12 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:46:06 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:48:01 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 15:51:33 -!- propumpkin has joined. 15:51:39 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:52:55 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 15:55:42 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:55:42 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:59:18 -!- propumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:03:47 -!- Oren has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:07:54 -!- Oren has joined. 16:08:01 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 16:11:01 -!- propumpkin has joined. 16:11:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:14:39 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:18:12 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:21:29 -!- propumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:26:11 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 16:30:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:38:11 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:38:33 -!- blsqbot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:39:34 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:40:41 -!- propumpkin has joined. 16:42:08 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:43:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:43:52 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 16:46:21 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:46:59 -!- propumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:49:42 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:54:48 what kind of bot logs in and logs out every 3 minutes? 16:55:08 copumpkin isn't a bot :p 16:55:20 what's going on then? 16:55:37 bad connection? 16:59:53 hmm, seems my scrip7 interpreter is still buggy 17:00:12 the loops are not working 17:00:22 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 17:01:38 this program crashes my scrip7 interpreter: $ { # _ p 64 } . 17:01:52 trying to fixt that 17:02:07 contrapumpkin: fix your connection :p 17:03:44 the problem is with the null variable _ 17:03:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:04:04 which isn'tin the spec becuase it keeps screing up 17:04:19 s/screing/screwing/ 17:06:11 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:07:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott. 17:07:36 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b $a:copumpkin$##fixyourconnection. 17:07:45 someone poke me in an hour 17:07:58 Oh, A057755 is about to run out 17:08:32 Still two days for Dominosa and it's so far seen very little action. 17:08:38 And most of what it's seen is #esoteric's fault. 17:09:57 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:10:13 that rolf solution... 17:10:18 is it legit or just a really bad cheat? 17:10:59 how many bits do you get from the $$ setter? I guess a bit less than 16? 17:11:10 elliott: 15 bits 17:11:38 b_jonas: but some other processes are already on the system, right? 17:11:44 you can't collide with those 17:11:44 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:11:54 elliott: a bit less than 15 bits really 17:11:54 oh, I guess it's actually faked 17:12:02 as in your pid isn't really that 17:12:04 what? no 17:12:05 it's not faked 17:12:14 are you sure? anagol fakes many syscalls 17:12:57 elliott: I've been assuming it's legit, because even just uncompressed embedding is just 240B + whatever language-specific overhead there is. 17:13:07 -!- tlewkow has joined. 17:13:10 Or was it even less than that. 17:13:26 fizzie: it has a shebang, documentation, and obeys PEP-8 17:13:35 PatchiKnowsWhatsUp v2 17:13:44 unit tests, 17:13:57 I was supposed to check what that was all about, but forgot. 17:14:15 http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Wow/PatchiKnowsWhatsUp_1415208522&py 17:14:18 a nice solution 17:15:27 Especially the space after print, as someone pointed out 17:15:46 I would've done it again, too. 17:16:09 int-e: oh, is that solution yours? or what do you mean 17:16:24 No, I liked the space in particular. 17:16:45 ah 17:16:52 And the nickname. 17:18:17 Heh, someone did A057755 in jq 17:27:09 perl... $$.2, yuck. 17:28:03 append 2 to variable $$ 17:28:10 is how I read that 17:28:27 but perl may not read it the same way 17:28:35 yes. $$ is the process id, it'll be 315652 17:28:44 after appending the 1 17:28:48 ... the 2 17:28:55 ah 17:29:08 497/1651, hmm. 17:32:24 So have we decided that Dominosa is a compression task now? 17:32:45 so what kind of literals are those C solutions using? 17:32:51 -!- GeekDude has joined. 17:33:53 oh, also 17:34:07 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Make+24 is public now 17:34:30 so now you can see the craziest regex I've ever written: 17:34:35 s/\w\K\B/+/g; 17:35:10 Oh.. 17:35:24 it's short but crazy 17:35:39 this is the solution: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Make+24/b_jonas_1414698860&pl 17:36:42 FireFly: It's not a compression task, but I'm sure the best solutions are embeds. 17:37:37 FireFly: Out of my burlesque ones, the un-suffixed one is legit, the "cheat" makes one unwarranted assumption that happens to cause no problems for the three test cases, and the "supercheat" just embeds the outputs. 17:37:51 int-e: idea: programming language that somehow uses $$ as part of the control flow/code... 17:37:57 (implicitly) 17:38:12 save a whole two bytes of information!! 17:39:43 of course Dominosa is a data compression task, so where are the Perl solutions :/ 17:41:54 anagol should just add zlib as a language 17:42:07 oh I guess zlib can't condition on input at all though :p 17:42:24 hmm, could you easily add input to the "languages" of decompressors? 17:43:31 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:50:39 elliott: I was looking for a feature like that in the end-user gzip/zcat/etc. tools, but couldn't find anything. 17:50:48 (For that one bash+zcat thing.) 17:51:32 fizzie: what I mean is considering the decompressors as interpreters for languages like "emit these bytes" and "reference N bytes" ago... I know zip is enough to do a quine, so maybe adding input somehow would be enough to get it to do golf cheats all by itself? 17:51:36 maybe you knew I meant that though 17:53:06 Oh, no; I assumed you meant what I was looking for, which was to compress input Y as if it was preceded by input X to something short called Z, and then being able to decompress Z back to Y if given X. 17:54:11 that sounds weird. 17:54:28 It sounds somewhat reasonable that many compressors could get a shorter Z (compared to just compressing Y alone to Z') if X and Y are similar, but they don't seem to offer that as an option. 17:54:32 hand-programming of zip files is where it's at 17:55:51 I think the zlib library has something a bit like that. 17:56:09 See http://www.zlib.net/manual.html deflateSetDictionary + inflateSetDictionary. 17:56:19 "Initializes the compression dictionary from the given byte sequence without producing any compressed output. This function must be called immediately after deflateInit, deflateInit2 or deflateReset, before any call of deflate. The compressor and decompressor must use exactly the same dictionary (see inflateSetDictionary). without producing any compressed output." 17:56:29 "The dictionary should consist of strings (byte sequences) that are likely to be encountered later in the data to be compressed, with the most commonly used strings preferably put towards the end of the dictionary. Using a dictionary is most useful when the data to be compressed is short and can be predicted with good accuracy; the data can then be compressed better than with the default empty ... 17:56:35 ... dictionary." 17:56:41 But as far as I could tell, the command-line tools didn't provide for that. 17:58:25 (Even though they could very easily have a "do {deflate,inflate}SetDictionary with the contents of file X before {,de}compression" option, and it might even conceivably be useful, to someone, somewhere.) 17:59:26 anyway, extending zlib seems wrong, because the trick is usually to come up with a special purpose decompressor that exploits a lot of regular structure in the output that is know a priori. 18:01:52 (For example, no matter how much you change its data portion, my Make24 entry will never print "Hello, world!") 18:02:24 int-e: yes, I was mostly joking on the zlib solutions that float around. 18:02:56 -!- Oren has quit (Quit: Page closed). 18:03:11 right, but usually they don't come out on top overall 18:04:53 well, neither does Ada and it's still there :p 18:07:18 int-e: actually, you know what might be interesting? an arithmetic coder language 18:07:42 I think it's some PAQ variant that represents the compressed data as "prediction model algorithm" + "arithmetic coder output for that data with the prediction model" 18:08:07 hard to see how to extend that to multiple outputs, sadly 18:08:16 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:08:42 I will try to use speech recognition participate in the discussion though 18:08:49 I meant to know 18:08:50 -!- tromp has joined. 18:09:01 I meant now 18:09:11 fizzie: lovely to see the spectacular fruits of your research 18:09:32 this is nothing really sucks this is the Google speech recognizer 18:09:42 * elliott pats the fizziebot's metallic head 18:09:43 not my research I mean 18:09:49 int-e: hehe, mine won't either, 18:09:52 fizzie: ah, well, you'd better go improve that, right? 18:09:58 not that that would ever happen. 18:10:03 not yet 18:10:10 `perl -e $_="Hello, world!"; s/\w\K\B/+/g;s/\w/hex$&/ge;s/(.*)=/($1)\xc3\x97/g;print 18:10:11 0+14+0+0+0, 0+0+0+0+13! 18:10:28 louhi accent is not entirely comfortable with it 18:10:33 you're so much cuter in lowercase 18:10:45 I don't know how to speak in uppercase 18:11:24 my wife is finding this amusing 18:11:36 is using this to talk part of the corporate culture there 18:11:40 * elliott waves to fizzie's wife 18:11:49 I hope not 18:12:12 b_jonas: In my case it's a close call. you can make it print things like Hel+lo,+world+! 18:12:32 Autolab speech recognizer out it would be in my eye me listing 18:12:58 b_jonas: because the numbers are actually taken from stdin. 18:13:00 agreed 18:13:26 int-e: I see 18:14:20 I tried to make something based on the input numbers but forgot I had would have had to rearrange them 18:14:40 what does your wife think of fungot 18:14:40 elliott: looks more to me like a bush. actually, now i'm all about " do unto you! 18:15:21 I don't use the input numbers at all 18:15:52 in one version I read the first line to determine which of the three testcases I have, but $$ turns out to be shorter 18:16:17 quite funny s*** say 18:16:27 b_jonas: I was so happy when I found the -a options of perl. 18:16:29 she says 18:16:44 nice censor 18:16:54 autosplit? 18:17:00 it's happened to me when I was demonstrating this to some students 18:17:40 tried to say: how old is she 18:17:55 what came out was something something is shaped 18:18:03 s*** 18:18:13 b_jonas: yes. it just so happened that I was already inserting the operators by indexing into an array, and this gave me another array to do exactly the same for the numbers, virtually for free. 18:19:12 -!- nooga has joined. 18:19:56 fizzie: at least it's not as bad as dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all 18:20:41 dear fungot, let's set so double the killer delete select all 18:20:42 b_jonas: that as well, i see! 18:20:49 fungot, how old is she? 18:20:49 b_jonas: i look forward to. every. single. time. 18:21:16 fungot, what came out was something something is shaped? 18:21:16 b_jonas: that, but also a lot! 18:21:55 fungot, how do you define a function template that can return void or non-void? can you really only do it with two separate overloads? 18:21:55 b_jonas: to the last, i will grapple with thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee 18:22:25 I think fungot is upset 18:22:25 elliott: but a good one! it's funny this one time in high school, a friend, but i have a problem, t-rex? 18:22:39 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -b $a:copumpkin$##fixyourconnection. 18:23:40 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott. 18:25:09 "Benedict Cumberbatch Can Charm Humans, but Can He Fool a Computer?" this is the best headline I've ever read 18:25:25 "no, he can't fool computers into thinking he's human" 18:25:32 by headline I mean wolfram blog post title 18:25:58 fungot, what's the best headline you've ever read? 18:25:58 b_jonas: don't i know you from somewhere? but, i mean, a male, i can be one of those people are going to think you're a pedophile, and he's on a friggin' universe. and then there'll be a day shortly afterwards when we can simulate universe on our cell, because there'd have been no controversy. 18:26:04 "Turing machines were one of the focal points of the movie, and we launched a prize in 2007 to determine whether the 2,3 Turing machine was universal." come oooon 18:28:24 http://blog.wolfram.com/data/uploads/2014/11/confident-results.png benedict cumberbatch revealed to be actually the same person as alan rickman by stephen wolfram 18:30:29 frightening 18:38:43 elliott kalanwww.fronter finnish speech recognizer ovat 18:39:00 agreed 18:39:47 langat funka puunkaato unikot kankaat langat kankaat 18:39:57 it's no use I can't say it 18:40:13 fine what 18:40:28 I hope your research does a lot better than this 18:40:53 that last one was my wife crying 18:41:00 trying 18:41:30 I will try to improve the phone with recognition I believe this office recognize out of 18:41:33 can your marriage survive speech recognition 18:41:49 i don't know if i can survive speed recognition 18:41:58 ^style 18:41:59 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube 18:42:09 high-speed speech recognition 18:42:54 find the West gutter 18:43:01 now i want to try taking a speech recognition thing and hold it up to a radio announcer rattling off caveats for an insurance policy 18:43:09 fungot 18:43:09 fizzie: are you you're going trick-or-treating this year will be better in the future. a year, a balloon! the balloon goes up some of the way, we can consider the real question, which is a good thing! stupid problems 18:43:19 I need it 18:43:26 indeed it 18:43:35 is it 18:43:41 I give up 18:44:03 I had to speak fun and got separately 18:44:19 did you find the west gutter yet 18:44:29 it is still missing 18:45:02 that's tragic 18:45:10 is this on a computer or a phone, anyway? 18:45:25 I'm doing it on my android tablet 18:45:37 with screen - X 18:45:57 so everything I say it sent to Google satellite 18:46:33 can't reach Google at the moment it says 18:46:44 it's the age of cloud 18:47:12 I think this works better for native English speakers 18:47:42 also I have it set to recognize both in Spanish and English 18:47:51 finnish notepad 18:48:12 voisi puhua myös suomea 18:49:47 you still seem so tiny in lowercase. 18:49:55 ...do you even speak spanish? 18:50:22 no I don't 18:53:11 it's okay. 18:53:14 you can learn. 18:53:32 thanks to machine translation I want need to 18:55:23 can it automagically do speech recognition -> translation -> IRC? 18:55:27 that would be something 18:57:05 its can do a speech recognition to translation to speech synthesis 18:57:13 but not to IRC 18:57:17 just hook that up to speech recognition again, then 18:57:47 sounds like the best idea 18:58:03 I don't have a second device though 18:58:25 they don't shower you with devices when they initiate you? 18:58:40 maybe you could use some of Your Research on your computer as the other speech recogniser 18:58:45 startin hiilet 18:58:56 I haven't actually started yet 18:59:16 that is true 18:59:28 so it's mostly about to finish 19:01:02 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 19:06:49 was that some kind of pun 19:07:27 I tried to say in Microsoft you about finish 19:07:47 my restaurant 19:08:05 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:08:07 my research ace about the Finnish language 19:08:39 okay, so translate english -> finnish 19:09:10 don't worry, I can translate what you say back to english 19:09:31 I don't have a lot of things up hahaha system have at home 19:09:36 [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41230&oldid=41222 * 71.184.241.244 * (+3) 19:09:56 The Walking Dead pop 19:09:58 that person still hasn't seen my talk page note, have they 19:11:04 the walking dead pop 19:11:23 the working step up 19:11:48 the working setup? 19:11:57 you got it 19:12:03 I got it 19:12:27 -!- Oren has joined. 19:13:02 -!- Lorenzo64 has joined. 19:15:57 fizzie: so is google speech recognition only going to work in finnish soon 19:16:05 "your expertise" 19:20:09 Busy testing speech recognition I physeal I'm testing speech recognition to 19:20:15 -!- ion has joined. 19:20:17 hi fizzy 19:20:32 this is probably even worse 19:20:48 okay it seems to be better if I don't claim username 19:21:37 and so glad when this is speech recognition 19:23:52 -!- AndoDaan_ has joined. 19:24:13 metsästysseura human computer interaction 19:24:38 it's the phoyoutubefuture 19:24:58 having more than one language enabled is probably not a good idea 19:25:12 o YouTube future 19:25:19 dog philosophy 19:25:41 it was correct for a moment. Before the trip lasted with the finish world 19:25:54 Angela venture furniture S you N G oh T 19:26:09 F you and G oh T 19:26:12 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:26:20 couple tunnel syndrome 19:26:22 f you google 19:26:32 this is a applesauce action 19:26:53 this is a possible show 19:26:59 this is a apples 19:27:06 `quote navajo 19:27:10 raision sähköpalvelu grinders 19:27:10 722) hang on I have bright idea navajo to f me 1 in 3 people 19:27:20 this is apples fault Picture children 19:27:26 plumbing is a actually 19:27:29 Hurricane 19:27:39 so are you using an Apple device 19:28:11 just a MacBook 19:28:20 of course it gets that I Word right 19:28:36 it has its priorities in autumn 19:28:47 it doesn't work very well with the terminal on my accent all my accent all my accent all my accent or my accent 19:29:07 epson stylus sx 19:29:17 agreed 19:29:32 I'm still down sexy 19:29:42 help 19:29:59 at first you don't succeed 19:30:08 latvia sveitsi live stream 19:30:22 ok I'm switching this to English only 19:30:31 it's weird it's takes out of her it types out there wrong words but then backspaces and cracked them and corrects them in a split Second 19:30:46 this thing does that too 19:31:13 how come it has given you any Spanish not knot yep yeah yet 19:31:27 how come did not give you any Spanish 19:32:16 I only had finish 19:32:17 cannot you join into can you cannot and Again they can invent Dawn Nathan Doctor doom 19:32:24 the Spanish was a mistake 19:32:35 no I have only English subject did 19:32:36 can then Tanya can then oh Tanya was close 19:32:58 Tanya you should join into in to oh 19:33:12 Help 19:33:21 I did this ages ago and it didn't end well 19:33:22 oh you meant Ahmed lemon finance 10m kinetic Thunderhead Gangnam 19:33:26 you are typing now your tendon you can you you Tanya 19:33:45 what Are you hello who 19:33:50 oh my god ain't nothing 19:33:54 about the software has improved drastically 19:34:04 you should try again 19:34:17 what was metal and finance 10 m meant to be 19:34:28 its was a planet 19:34:36 Tanabe 19:34:42 Connecticut thunderhead getting them 19:34:47 I'm so glad it knows gang them 19:34:57 Gangnam style 19:35:15 mine doesn't know going 19:35:16 I'm sure that train this with us out of sorts queries 19:35:26 did you get tomorrow 19:35:32 how did you get cannot 19:35:37 how did you get Tanya 19:36:01 I spelled it out 19:36:09 ta ma be 19:36:14 Tanabe 19:36:23 it inserts on that last E 19:36:53 tanee be 19:37:07 tanee be Tanabe I am dB 19:37:09 T a NEVE 19:37:15 TDA MTB 19:37:20 a NEB 19:37:25 T a NEB 19:37:27 yes 19:37:37 AAN EB 19:37:40 congratulations 19:37:41 TA and maybe 19:38:06 like voice chat that bad 19:38:09 PS A and E B 19:38:10 breakfast chat but bad 19:38:31 I don't think I can get this right 19:38:51 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 19:39:13 was philosophy osteopathic 19:39:13 le up Colin it doesn't know you are an A 19:39:22 Messages coffee: 19:39:27 that's just call him coughing 19:39:36 let's just call him: Colin 19:39:46 that's a good idea 19:39:55 I feel bad for the laundry. 19:40:03 the log area. 19:40:11 fizzy isn't so great either 19:40:29 your real name would be worse L Shell so so 19:40:30 it's quite close at least 19:40:32 go 19:40:38 keep 19:40:49 heikki kallasjoki 19:40:53 Haiti 19:40:58 see it's better if it 19:40:59 at custody 19:41:04 80 curfew 19:41:07 I think it knows my name 19:41:09 he can cast 19:41:13 custom 19:41:17 it's also knows where I live 19:41:31 are you chatting with speech recognition I want to try to this is fun 19:41:36 it didn't know my birthday when I asked 19:41:45 honey doesn't look as my recognise my name at all 19:41:58 you're my honeymoon 19:42:11 Hello Elliot and fizzy 19:42:27 hey i on what device are you using Autobots truck driver 19:42:35 what's up 19:42:49 Google voice input on a samsung galaxy phone 19:43:01 this is Google Voice invite on the Nexus tablet 19:43:04 Busy MacBook is this actually getting married 19:43:24 honeymoon after getting married 19:43:35 this entire channel has become a recursive markov chain ... 19:43:36 it's too complicated can you walk me to it 19:43:55 hi Jake Kean 19:44:00 complete dark 19:44:05 fungot please help 19:44:05 fizzie: this i do believe so! excuse to stomp! little does the dromiceiomimus know that i intend to do today! we can't hang out in paradise, alone, to raise the friggin'. fragile, species can survive their electrical onslaught 19:44:21 Testing. Explicit punctuation seems to work. 19:44:23 Colin and cheap keen 19:44:26 I have to stop talking in the middle of fun and got 19:44:40 I am calling I tried suicide calling but it didn't recognize 19:44:45 and 19:44:49 ion 19:44:51 Nice 19:45:17 peace and police officer please don't call yourself busy 19:45:22 can you self visit 19:45:26 kill yourself fitting 19:45:29 ion:and get drunk show a shin is sometimes but not often 19:45:31 kill yourself busy fizzy 19:45:37 punctuation 19:45:52 as in then don't 19:46:01 I have trouble importing fungal 19:46:10 Tong-it 19:46:16 target 19:46:20 I don't remember what I was trying to say when it recognize it by side 19:46:24 Fungus 19:46:33 Hung up 19:46:35 I have trouble importing fungal to 19:46:46 omg https://github.com/jhallen/joes-sandbox/tree/master/exorsim/mpl 19:46:53 try saying fun than typing to post tense tense I got 19:46:56 are you still tan sexy fizzy 19:47:10 yes I insist a lot of sexy 19:47:34 what is the so funny 19:48:46 I'll be getting married fizzy 19:48:49 help 19:48:56 hello 19:49:04 who are you are getting married to 19:49:29 fizzy you're my honeymoon 19:49:47 I love speech recognition 19:50:16 -!- hjulle has joined. 19:50:38 and don't think you can get somebody to talk concept 19:51:25 what was wrong with using a keyboard? 19:51:27 I can talk and settlement all I want 19:51:35 it's not the future on Oren 19:51:40 this is the future 19:52:07 it's so much more convenient this way 19:52:09 what about when there are 25 people in the room with you 19:52:21 -!- AndoDaan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:52:30 all talking into their computers 19:52:38 that's Called party 19:52:40 yes that sounds good 19:52:57 To me keyboard is better and I can type fast too 19:52:58 is he loves problems like that fizzy 19:53:07 Speaking into the computer is good if you want a sound recording though 19:53:19 But I don't need a sound recording 19:53:22 if I want to send according I can progress into speech since that 19:53:31 if I want a sound recording I can progress into synthesiser 19:54:31 big hugs the dogs 19:54:31 but he's the best apps Mario's full on the phone with no good kid lock 19:54:36 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 19:54:53 invite in public is probably Mario s photo on phone with no good keyboard 19:55:05 voice input models for 19:55:13 lot of useful 19:55:19 close enough 19:56:09 can I see Marie's photo 19:57:24 checklist google image search 19:57:50 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:17:31 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:23:44 You should try speech-recognizer | bash | speech-synthesizer 20:24:29 [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41231&oldid=41230 * 71.184.241.244 * (+543) 20:25:38 actually my colleague my speech recognizer into xD O'Toole 20:25:48 so that it would type into any window that has focus 20:25:54 steel tool 20:26:01 I tried to write one paragraph of my teeth is using it 20:26:04 well, I'm not an engineer, I don't know. 20:26:08 it didn't go well 20:26:10 um, wrong channel, sorry 20:27:34 X d o tool 20:28:22 it was kind of dangerous 20:29:09 fizzie, hm? xdotool? Isn't that for moving windows around and such? 20:29:17 xD O'Toole is a good name for software 20:31:10 Right, a different one according to the logs. Speaking of which, why didn't znc replay the log like it is configured to when I reconnected? 20:31:48 fungot, why didn't znc replay the log like it is configured to? 20:31:49 b_jonas: dromiceiomimus, i don't! 20:33:51 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 20:35:21 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:42:50 yes you can use it to type 2 20:43:12 in addition to moving windows and stuff 20:43:33 it pretends to be a kid lot 20:43:42 send stupid a key events 20:44:03 oh, "keyboard"? 20:44:45 translating speech recognition output → english is quite tricky at times 20:44:45 yeah 20:47:48 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:48:14 Is there a way to say to cabal "fix mixed versions"? I.e rebuild any packages depending on different versions of a package so that everything just works, and I don't get weird errors. 20:48:24 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:53:00 elliott, ^ 20:53:45 using cabal sandbox is probably the best option but I'm a year+ out of date with haskell 20:53:51 Ah 20:54:05 elliott, I mean, gentoo managed to make this shit work, so why can't haskell 20:54:23 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:54:33 well, the problem is inherently hard. cabal has some questionable behaviour in response to it, though 20:54:51 Agreed 20:55:23 I'm fine with it telling me that "these packages will need to be rebuilt if you update this package, do you want me to do that, recursively?" 20:55:42 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Quit: Quit). 20:55:49 Or of course "this will break, and the version restrictions in the dependencies make it unsolvable" 20:56:14 It should never let me end up in a state where I have a pretty much broken environment 20:56:30 So yes it would need rollback support 20:56:50 does gentoo actually allow coinstallation of multiple versions? 20:57:59 elliott, not in general, but for some packages that marks it as ok (for example, kernel, major gcc versions, ...) 20:58:49 It does have infrastructure for rebuilding broken packages though 20:59:21 well, cabal allows multiple versions of the same package. so the problem is fundamentally different 21:00:11 True, but I'd in general prefer to not have multiple versions because right now I'm dealing with two different packages that want different versions of a common dependency 21:00:28 So I have to rebuild stuff, but I can't find any automated way to do it 21:00:33 Vorpal: are you sure you'd prefer that? what about when half of the library ecosystem depends on QuickCheck 2 and the other half QuickCheck 3? 21:00:39 which half do you prefer? 21:00:46 That is a problem yes 21:01:06 Gentoo has control over all its packages 21:01:12 so it can avoid things like that 21:01:15 if you want something like that, check out stackage. 21:01:27 elliott, however, what am I supposed to do when I have B needs A1 and C needs A1 and I need to exchange A-data between B and C 21:01:37 -!- ion has joined. 21:01:44 Which is my current issue 21:01:55 elliott, I will check that out, thanks 21:01:56 I think you typo'd somewhere there 21:02:05 elliott, err yea, A1 and A2 21:02:41 well, nothing on earth can solve that problem. it is true that it is all too easy to get multiple versions of a library linked within a single *program*, which is only okay if those libraries are implementation details for other libraries you use, basically. 21:02:55 (you *can* work with multiple ones explicitly with PackageImports I think, but please god don't) 21:03:11 cabal sandbox would help avoid that because it'd install your dependencies "all at once" 21:03:25 elliott, It isn't like B or C actually need different versions of A, it is just they ended up being built against different versions 21:03:38 yes, hence my cabal sandbox remark 21:03:41 Right 21:04:29 elliott, I added C to the project much later, I guess in that case I would have to rebuild the sandbox from scratch? I will have to look into how that works. And stackage. And find out which option is best for me. 21:04:46 I forget if it'd just work or not. 21:04:56 stackage is something you use *with* the sandbox, generally, I think 21:05:01 Ah okay 21:05:04 the nice thing about the sandbox is that your projects are fully isolated from each other 21:05:13 also, I think by now "rebuild" may not actually be rebuilding, because cabal caches builds properly 21:05:32 My main point here is that there doesn't seem to be much help for you once you run into an issue like that. On gentoo at least there is tools to clean up the mess. 21:06:39 it's easy to clean up with cabal sandbox. 21:06:42 just blow away the sandbox. 21:06:53 if you don't isolate, then the analogy is rm -rf ~/.cabal 21:07:07 I didn't isolate, because I didn't know I could do that. 21:07:19 right. 21:07:21 now I told you :p 21:07:28 I agree the haskell library experience is hell. 21:07:42 [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41232&oldid=41167 * Orenwatson * (+423) better interpreter version, brainfuck interpreter 21:08:19 Right. Also that will take a while to rebuild, because one of the libraries in there has like 100 of deps... (not related to the issue though). 21:08:38 -!- tlewkow has joined. 21:08:39 its so simple.. just create a different user for each project! 21:08:42 then cabal dont broke! 21:08:47 Hah 21:10:42 Yeah I definitely think cabal could do a much better job of preventing situations like this and helping you fix them. 21:11:11 I should look into how NixOS does this. Since it allows multiple versions to co-exist 21:11:44 elliott, do you happen to know how nixos deals with this? 21:11:55 That should be a much better analogy than gentoo in fact 21:13:19 Does the requirement that a pointer to memory be a fixed size in memory make a language turing-incomplete? 21:13:44 having a finite number of possible states rules out turing completeness, yes 21:13:56 the Mondeo system also I love smoking bowl out of snow 21:14:14 #420 21:14:19 http://modules.sourceforge.net/ 21:14:32 it's very simple though 21:14:59 cheated by copying pasting the f you out of hell 21:15:07 rural 21:15:14 well you know 21:15:19 " the Mondeo system also I love smoking bowl out of snow" <-- what 21:15:38 the muscular system of a lot of installing multiple lation 21:15:51 the more the old system the money he owes 21:15:51 fizzie, are you drunk? 21:15:58 he's using voice recognition 21:16:00 the module system 21:16:01 Oh 21:16:01 so basically yes 21:16:17 there we go I was pronouncing it wrong 21:16:34 so the module system allows installing multiple version 21:17:01 fizzie, why are you using voice recognition? 21:17:10 just practicing 21:17:12 For what? 21:17:33 -!- Oren_ has joined. 21:17:52 -!- Oren has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:18:09 Because C requires ability to acesss pointers to arrays of pointers, so pointers have to have a fixed size 21:18:17 I will start working for Google Nexus. Or so I thought I'd try out what about system its like 21:18:22 next year 21:18:56 Google Nexus? Cool 21:18:57 which means the set of languages in the real world that are turing complete is rather small 21:19:08 and not the Nexus next year 21:20:05 Oren_, unless you do some tricky stuff with IO to add extra storage. For a non-seekable file (i.e. pipe), there is no size limit as far as I know 21:20:58 oh! that could work 21:21:18 it's kind of external the language love 21:22:09 Yes use a pipe to self as an infinite queue, probably needs POSIX on top of C though, don't think the pipe functions are in standard C 21:22:28 prostate spike buck Futter sought a very limited in size 21:22:36 buffers 21:22:43 dude.... 21:22:54 prostate spike buck Futter 21:23:02 pipe buffer sizes 21:23:10 this doesn't work but it well otto technical topics 21:23:11 fizzie, sorry? 21:23:26 I'll cheat with a keyboard for a moment. 21:23:28 he says pipe buffers are small 21:23:35 You can't write an infinite amount into a POSIX pipe. 21:23:36 Oren_, how did you decode that 21:23:42 Skill, I assume. 21:23:48 I dunno 21:23:48 if you speak it out loud and imagine it's muffled and look at context that can help 21:23:55 fizzie, well that is a technical limitation of the real world, ulimit and so on 21:24:01 I did that in my head yeah 21:24:01 "posix pipe buffers are very limited in size" 21:24:15 Couldn't you address a potentially infinite amount of files in C? 21:24:21 Oh hm 21:24:33 I guess there is technically a limit on the length of the filename 21:24:41 Yes in the real world they are very limited, and so is RAM. but I don't know that it is specified to not be potentially infinite 21:24:42 since the filename has to be in RAM 21:24:49 Oren_: did you, like, logread old #esoteric arguments about C turing completeness 21:25:00 no. 21:25:23 i was wondering if my language scrip7 could possibly be turing complete. 21:25:29 FireFly, yes, it becomes number of possible files * sizeof(fpos_t) or something like that 21:25:38 Which is HUGE, but not infinite 21:25:53 it seems probably not 21:25:57 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 21:26:15 C is irrelevant for that 21:26:18 unless your language is defined in terms of C 21:26:19 a language has to be quite abstract to be turing complete it seems 21:26:39 nah, C is just unusually airtight in that respect, IMO 21:26:40 my language inherits many features from C but has a terse syntax 21:26:55 Vorpal: The fact that PIPE_BUF is defined kind of implies there must be a limit. 21:26:58 features like pointer arthmetic 21:27:13 fizzie, oh 21:27:14 looking at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Scrip7, does anything in the language prevent you from making pointers bignums? 21:27:15 But it's possible it's not quite entirely explicitly required. 21:27:41 (The references to PIPE_BUF are mostly about atomicity and behaviour w.r.t. blocking.) 21:27:56 -!- Frooxius has joined. 21:28:14 fizzie, where is that defined? I don't have the PDF on this computer, so I'm trying to find the man page 21:28:16 well, you are supposed to be able to go o>i to access the ith element of a list of pointers at o 21:28:17 And it's indeed defined as the "maximum number of bytes that is guaranteed to be atomic", so. 21:28:32 Oren_: that's fine 21:28:42 Oren_: just imagine an abstract model of the language where pointers are represented by arbitrary natural numbers 21:28:51 and memory is an infinite list of those 21:29:01 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:29:15 I guess if you can access things as chars then you can "see" the representation of bignums which might be awkward 21:29:15 [11:25] < Oren_> a language has to be quite abstract to be turing complete it seems 21:29:27 Vorpal: The constant's defined in the POSIX spec of . But you're right that maybe it's not strictly speaking a limit for the maximum amount of pending data. It's of course not defined by C. 21:29:28 C integers can be unbounded size, no? 21:29:38 newsham: No. 21:29:44 does the standard mandate a finite size? 21:29:52 no there is intmax.h or something 21:29:58 fizzie, well yeah I don't think pure C can be made TC 21:30:05 newsham: At least you can make a strong argument that the value of sizeof must be a finite number. 21:30:15 yah. 21:30:21 fair enough 21:30:34 so obviously someone needs to make a C variant! 21:30:42 Is C++ TC? 21:30:52 I kind of made a c variant 21:31:03 Taneb, only at compile time, and with infinite template evaluation depth iirc 21:31:04 Taneb: does C++ include the C++ preprocessor? 21:31:10 it has different syntax but very similar semantics 21:31:14 to C 21:31:19 FireFly, I don't think so :( 21:31:40 FireFly, the preprocessor of C and C++ is limited, maximum recursion depth and so on 21:31:48 or at least C as it is commonly implemented on x86 21:31:59 I did make a factorial function using GHC's type system 21:32:05 Think it is specified as a "at least" though 21:32:07 Vorpal: by spec? 21:32:19 Well, 'at least' is fine :P 21:32:21 It runs surprisingly quickly, but if you ask for the factorial of some big numbers things go wrong 21:32:26 That's a bound in the "right" direction 21:32:37 FireFly, not quite sure. It is something like "at least x recursive include", not sure if has to limit it at all 21:32:46 (I think when log_2 (n!) > 200 or so) 21:32:54 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 21:33:11 FireFly, I recommend checking the spec, which I don't have downloaded on this computer 21:33:42 FireFly, similar for the recusion of templates in C++, "at least x iterations" 21:34:02 Pretty sure GCC limits both though 21:34:08 And neither is at runtime of course 21:34:17 GCC isn;t the spec tho 21:34:52 some madman might have made a wildly screwed up compiler that breaks conventions 21:35:07 I'm pretty sure the C preprocessor is generally considered not TC, but I've forgotten the argument against why recursive include doesn't make it so. 21:35:10 Well obviously, but it is a common implementation. Just saying it isn't viable to use it practically 21:35:15 The macro expansion has explicit no-recursion rules. 21:35:16 and allows as many templates as there is memory for 21:35:40 fizzie, C++ templates are TC I'm fairly certain though 21:35:45 The templates are, yes. 21:36:01 Again with infinite recursion 21:36:03 And if you allow repeated executions of the C preprocessor, with the output fed in as the new input, it is too, I believe. 21:36:35 cpp can't generate newline 21:36:44 True 21:36:55 so the number of lines decreases each iteration of cpp 21:37:03 Or it could stay equal 21:37:07 or that 21:37:12 There is no need for it to be multiple lines either 21:37:18 What matters is statements 21:37:24 Well, I mean. You know, this thing: http://www.ioccc.org/2001/herrmann1.hint 21:37:31 #define isn't a statement 21:37:43 it ends at newline not ; 21:38:02 True, but you can't generate directives anyway 21:38:05 fizzie: I don't know if it's TC or not. it can implement a functional language 21:38:09 it does seem to be weirdly limited somehow though 21:38:15 I can't figure out how to even do the things the wizards do with it 21:38:28 Oren_, also look at the Boost Preprocessor library, it is quite interesting how much you actually CAN do with it 21:38:44 isn't boost C++ tho 21:38:48 chaos-pp/order-pp are IMO the most interesting preprocessor abuses. 21:39:02 Oren_, Sure but the preprocessor bit is basically the same for both 21:39:08 But they too have some non-TC upper bounds. 21:39:25 fizzie, what is chaos-pp/order-pp? 21:39:27 ah, what is order-pp's upper bound? 21:39:28 templates 21:39:29 that was the language i was talking about 21:39:33 https://github.com/rofl0r/order-pp/blob/master/example/fibonacci.c 21:39:46 Vorpal: that, and also the P99 library 21:39:47 https://github.com/rofl0r/chaos-pp/blob/master/chaos/preprocessor/algorithm/merge_sort.h ... 21:39:52 "Unless you are already convinced, you should check, by preprocessing this example, that the actual parameter to `printf' in the above code is just a single string that contains the 500th Fibonacci number in base 10." 21:40:05 elliott: IIRC, it's configurable. But it must be an integer. 21:40:21 right, but I mean, what's it an upper bound *on*? 21:40:29 reduction steps? 21:40:46 b_jonas, hm okay 21:40:57 I would really like cpp to be TC... 21:41:22 Vorpal: http://p99.gforge.inria.fr/ 21:41:24 -!- dts has joined. 21:42:29 but I think the boost preprocessor library has more powerful stuff 21:42:36 elliott: Something like that. It's part of chaos, and that's even more confusing than order. Something something exponential. 21:43:16 b_jonas, Well I seen some simple Boost PP code evaluating lists of stuff and such mostly 21:43:33 Vorpal: should just click fizie's fibonacci link :p 21:43:40 I did 21:43:43 s/:// 21:44:02 And no I can't read it :P 21:44:38 I think those lists are limited to 255 elements in boost preprocessor though 21:44:41 The thing with all the 8s seems to be characteristic of preprocessor things that "go too far". 21:44:55 (Sometimes it's some other number.) 21:45:25 What does the 8 mean? 21:45:32 It's just a number. 21:45:55 Does it need to be a number? 21:45:55 I had some sort of intuition why it's required, but I've completely blacked that out. 21:45:58 Yes. 21:46:01 Weird 21:46:31 it stops it being interpreted as a preprocessor token thingy, I think 21:46:35 Ah 21:47:12 -!- dts has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:47:32 -!- dts has joined. 21:47:58 oh yah, did i mention the bf interpreter for scrip7 expands the memory dynamically? 21:48:02 Q=(a>1S=PS+NS~ON*2bNNO=PN/2O+NaS0N*2#H+3G=H`) 21:48:24 um, is that a chemical formula? 21:48:33 its a function in scrip7 21:48:52 "8foo" is a single pp-number in the translation phase that decomposes the source to preprocessing tokens. 21:48:55 it conditionally expands the bf memory if it needs to 21:49:00 Hm, Boost PP should be usable in C I assume 21:49:07 does it deliberately try to look like a chemical formula? 21:49:13 no 21:49:24 but i see what you mean 21:49:31 smiles doesn't use tildes i don't think 21:49:39 what with NN0 and such 21:49:51 NaS0N 21:49:53 zero nitrogens? 21:49:58 (The "pp-number" syntax includes just about everything that starts with a digit, it can be followed by arbitrary identifier characters. 21:50:25 But it's still a pp-number and doesn't participate in macro expansion and such in the same way as identifiers; it probably has something to do with that.) 21:50:30 N is register 5 accessed as a 64bit int 21:50:55 O is register 0 acessed as an adress 21:50:58 Also I didn't realize order-pp grew out of the Boost preprocessor library: https://github.com/rofl0r/order-pp/blob/master/README.md 21:51:38 because someone went completely bonkers? 21:52:00 that's the boost way, man 21:52:33 hm, smiles uses @@ for stereochemistry. bizarre 21:52:38 Apparently order-pp has (.) 21:52:50 "8compose(f, g) : (a -> b) -> (c -> a) -> (c -> b)" 21:54:15 ~ is equality test becuase = was taken by assignment 21:55:16 FireFly, that looks haskellish 21:55:19 what kind of chemical formula uses *2 tho? 21:55:38 Vorpal: looks like the type signatures in https://github.com/rofl0r/order-pp/blob/master/doc/notes.txt are haskell-inspired 21:55:40 fizzie: rather, chaos-pp did 21:55:54 that repo is chaos-pp with all the parts that aren't needed for order-pp removed, I guess 21:55:54 Looks like it 21:56:31 Oren_: is : used for anything? 21:56:53 elliott, okay, so which one should you use? chaos or order? 21:56:53 : is used for "set and move forward" 21:57:03 they're different things. 21:57:07 chaos-pp is a cpp library. 21:57:11 order-pp is a language implemented in cpp. 21:57:14 Ah 21:57:16 that uses chaos-pp, I think. 21:57:25 like if you have (struct){int i; long j; char *s} 21:57:53 K has : for assignment and = for equality, at any rate 21:57:55 then you do i:4 I:2 o:"foobar" to set each variable in turn 21:58:31 this grew out of a config file format 21:58:40 for a game 21:59:13 A config file that is essentially compressed C? 21:59:18 yes now config files can modify arbitrary memory inside the game 21:59:28 useful 21:59:28 but it is interpreted 22:00:03 but it uses ragisters, not variables 22:00:04 8paste(l, r) : a -> b -> c -where 8isnt_edible(r) 22:00:06 Well, I guess it's not too different from emacs' config files 22:00:20 which are lisp iirc 22:03:18 if my game was any good I'd postit 22:03:24 but it sucks 22:05:04 Oren_: well, that looks like it's easily turing complete to me. you can allocate memory, point into it with several pointers, move those pointers, read and write through them, you have loops and conditionals (even if I'm not sure how those conditionals and loops work). 22:06:05 the conditionals are skips: i~0 skdkasj # will skip to the # if the 0 register points to a 32 bit value of zero 22:06:27 Oren_: so they skip to the next # commadn? 22:06:35 yeah. 22:06:38 oh, good 22:06:43 and $ is unconditional jump 22:06:50 and the # command itself is a no-op? 22:06:53 yeah 22:06:57 and how do you loop? 22:07:18 (){}[] are all unconditional loops inside unconditional jumps 22:07:32 good 22:07:40 and you can exit from them with a skip instruction 22:07:47 liek goto b a: goto a b: 22:08:00 yah 22:08:05 not that it's really needed, but is there an easy way to have a nested if? 22:08:15 hmmm 22:08:21 b_jonas: C has all those properties too 22:08:39 elliott: of course. 22:08:43 reverse condition and use i!0{# dfsdsdf} 22:08:55 Oren_: ok 22:08:58 and it isn't TC. 22:09:16 elliott: meh, it's turing-complete enough for my purposes. 22:09:22 scrip7 should be about as TC as C 22:10:04 b_jonas: but the topic was whether scrip7 was actually TC, with the (correct) assumption that C isn't. 22:10:20 (C is not turing complete enough for esowiki categorisation, say, which is relevant here) 22:10:32 Oren_: what I don't understand is, why are the registers of different types aliased? wouldn't it be better if they were separate, and there was a command for assigning the pointer from one to another? 22:11:01 so that you can easily set a bunch of members of a struct in order 22:11:12 Oren_: in fact, are there commands to read and write the address where a register is pointing to to the memory? 22:11:31 yeah easy : P=p 22:11:50 oh, so that's what the addr type does! 22:11:56 that makes sense, thanks 22:12:05 it gets the value of the pointer itself 22:12:30 that also explains how the G register works 22:12:45 yeah that's how you make subroutines 22:12:52 or just computed gotos 22:13:05 by convention i've been using H to store the return address 22:13:34 if you look at the bf interpreter the > and < commands use subroutines 22:13:49 it's really more of a compiler... 22:14:11 it turns bf into scrip7 and then jumps directly into that code 22:15:23 Oren_: I see 22:16:11 Oren_: scrip7 also looks like it's almost compilable, but not quite, because writes to the G register could be a bit difficult to compile 22:16:46 you could probably still compile it, you'd just have to try to figure out some of the easier cases of writing to G, and if any remains, handle it with a big indirect jump table 22:17:09 yeah. even if you don't support jumping to data space You would need to ensure that each instruction's compiled form is the same size 22:17:18 or something 22:17:18 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:17:50 Oren_: you don't really have to if there's a table mapping the scrip7 addresses to compiled addresses 22:18:01 though there's the problem that the scrip7 can have self-modifying code 22:18:01 ah i see 22:18:05 writing into its own code 22:18:11 if that's allowed, you can't really compile 22:18:16 not efficiently at least 22:18:21 because basically any instruction could write there 22:18:32 right.... but semantics of that are just as undefined as writing to a function pointer in C 22:18:56 but if you forbid that and also forbid wild indirect jumps, you could compile it pretty efficiently 22:19:10 char *a = printf; 22:19:37 whoops need a cast through (void*) 22:20:08 Not really through void *. 22:20:16 Casting it directly to char * is no better or worse. 22:20:33 oh... yeah. 22:20:42 (But it does need a cast.) 22:21:05 using (void*) is instinct 22:21:23 It wouldn't work the other way around, anyway. 22:21:45 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:21:57 main is usually a function 22:22:11 ((void (*)(char*))"Hello, world")("Foobar"); 22:22:22 char *data; int (*f)(int) = (int (*)(int))data; needs a cast to the function pointer type, and going to a void * won't help. 22:23:39 line that i wrote above compiles with GCC 22:23:57 Yes, there's nothing "wrong" with it. 22:24:11 Oren_: interesting 22:24:30 everything about it is evil, but you could theoretically use that for inline machine code 22:24:41 Oren_: but what I don't see is how you're using this as a configuration format? 22:24:56 Not on very many systems. 22:25:00 Becasue the interpreter gets a pointer to the data space 22:25:20 I think we had some machine code oneliners here, but they're complicated by an ugly required mprotect call. 22:25:21 void scrip7(char *code,void *data); 22:25:44 so if you pass in a struct for the data, your code can alter the contents of that 22:25:53 Oren_: ok 22:26:49 and the main in scrip7.c is a weak symbol so the one in my game overrides it 22:27:13 while compiling it alone gives you an interpreter 22:27:45 using such a low-level language as configuration file language sounds a bit unsafe, but whatever suits you 22:28:22 `run echo 'const char f[] = "1\xc0""1\xff""1\xd2\xff\xc0\xff\xc7H\x8d""5\n\0\0\0\xb2\x06\x0f\x05\xb0<1\xff\x0f\x05hello\n"; int main(void) { mprotect((void *)((unsigned long)f&~0xffful), 0x1000, 7); ((void (*)())f)(); }' | gcc -x c - -o /tmp/x && /tmp/x # with some implicit function declaration action 22:28:23 the whole point was for the configuration to be able to allocate memory for wtrings and such 22:28:24 hello 22:28:35 hi 22:29:00 `runc int main() {} 22:29:03 what was it called? 22:29:04 No output. 22:29:20 There's `runc and `! c, but I always forget their peculiarities. 22:29:35 One needs all \s doubled because it allows \n so that you can use preprocessor directives. 22:29:36 `run cat `which runc` 22:29:39 ​#!/bin/bash \ t=`tempfile` \ echo -e "$@" | gcc -trigraphs -o $t -x c - 2>/dev/null && $t \ rm $t 22:29:46 -trigraphs????? 22:29:47 *s 22:29:51 Hey, #esoteric. 22:29:55 is that because there's a trigraph for newlines or something 22:29:58 `cat ibin/c 22:30:00 ​#!/bin/sh \ . lib/interp \ interp_file "./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp c" 22:30:00 no 22:30:00 Possibly both of them need \\s, actually. 22:30:11 `cat interps/gcccomp/gcccomp 22:30:12 ​#!/bin/bash \ LANG="$1" \ echo >>"$2" \ \ case "$LANG" in \ c) \ HEAD='#include \n#include \n#include \n#include \n#include \nint main(int argc, char **argv) {' \ TAIL='; return 0; }' \ EXT='c' \ GCC='gcc' \ FLAGS='-std=gnu99' \ ;; \ \ c++) 22:30:21 `url interps/gcccomp/gcccomp 22:30:22 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/interps/gcccomp/gcccomp 22:30:26 That one has the "try it with a main function" thing. 22:30:30 isn't there one that's like geordi, translating backslashes outside strings to newlines? 22:30:42 Like candide, you mean. :p 22:30:49 (The ##c answer to ##c++'s geordi.) 22:30:56 And no, we don't have anything fancy. 22:31:17 `! asm jmp *0 22:31:18 The \! c is closest in that it tries compiling with a provided main wrapper first. 22:31:19 ​./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 307 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 22:31:22 nice 22:31:22 mind you, it would have to tokenize C for that, which isn't trivial with comments and raw strings and trigraphs and suchlikes 22:31:41 b_jonas: you could maybe do something with libclang. 22:32:52 `! c int main(void) { puts("foo"); } /* there's also this problem */ 22:32:55 No output. 22:33:21 That's because it turns into int main(void) { int main(void) { puts("foo"); } return 0; } which compiles and runs just fine. 22:33:34 is that actually legal C99? 22:33:38 No, but it's legal GCC. 22:33:40 wait, nested functions aren't C99 22:33:49 isn't main reserved or something? can you really shadow functions?? 22:33:54 nested functions are GCC11 or something 22:34:02 I suspect they're gcc89 22:34:05 You can do int f(void) { int f = 42; return f; } so why not? 22:34:13 *gnu89, rather 22:34:14 There was an attempt to add some flags that disable nested functions, but that ran into some other issue that I forget. 22:34:19 fizzie: I guess, yeah. 22:34:22 because gcc puts everything into the default version 22:34:38 fizzie: probably it broke doing int f() { return 42; } printf("%d\n", f()); or such 22:34:56 couldn't it just try to link without the wrapper first, then recompile and link with the wrapper if it fails to link? 22:34:57 `! c int main(void) { puts("you can do this but it's real silly"); } main(); 22:34:59 you can do this but it's real silly 22:35:07 or just grep -qw main 22:35:29 `! c void main() { puts("see, this is the right signature after all"); } main(); 22:35:31 see, this is the right signature after all 22:35:52 ogodno 22:36:03 ogodno.gif 22:36:16 heh 22:36:57 >canigreentext 22:36:59 no 22:37:54 not unless you want me to ban ou 22:37:55 *you 22:38:08 lol.. 22:39:01 -!- dts has changed nick to Sargon_. 22:39:24 -!- Sargon_ has changed nick to dts. 22:39:38 `run sed -i -e '47s/SOURCE/2/;48s/2/SOURCE/' interps/gcccomp/gcccomp # now that you mention it, I see no immediate reason why the order could not just be swapped 22:39:39 No output. 22:39:58 `! c int main(void) { puts("foo"); } 22:40:00 foo 22:40:06 `! c puts("bar"); 22:40:09 bar 22:40:46 `! c puts("\e[32mdoes this work"); 22:40:48 ​[32mdoes this work 22:40:56 damn 22:41:17 `! c puts("\33[32mdoes this work"); 22:41:20 ​[32mdoes this work 22:41:45 fizzie: what was the other old unix box you have, an SGI Indy and a...? 22:41:50 or even better, use the convention geordi does: if the code starts with an open bracket, then find the block of code (again not so easy), move it to the end, and make it the main functino 22:41:52 elliott: SparcStation 5. 22:42:24 fizzie: right. I wonder if you can run Windows NT 4.0 on the SGI Indy. 22:42:27 that sure would be something. 22:42:33 what 22:42:39 is that even possible? 22:42:40 my dad has a AIX box still running 22:42:55 I have absolutely no idea what sort of machines the MIPS port of Windows NT ran on. 22:42:55 b_jonas: windows used to support alpha, mips and powerpc, didn't you know? :) 22:43:04 really? 22:43:06 yep 22:43:18 Somehow I don't think it's SGI machines though. 22:43:24 of course you can't find much in the way of third-party binaries, but they aren't nonexistent, either. 22:43:29 makes Mac moving to intel not a big deal 22:43:39 well, I mean, nobody actually /used/ this 22:43:51 except I think the Alpha port got some use because the chip could emulate x86 pretty well or something 22:44:08 Windows NT was deliberately designed to be very portable, though 22:44:10 Hmm. 22:44:21 Apparently ARC-compliant MIPS systems. 22:44:22 they designed it on a random Intel RISC chip that they never actually shipped it on to ensure that 22:44:29 elliott: really? I thought it supported only one architecture besides x86, possibly if you don't count intel64 which was later 22:44:31 So it's even borderline possible, because Indy is on that list. 22:44:34 b_jonas: Really. 22:44:45 fizzie: nice. 22:44:53 "Windows NT 3.1 was released for Intel x86 PC compatible, DEC Alpha, and ARC-compliant MIPS platforms. Windows NT 3.51 added support for the PowerPC processor in 1995, specifically PReP-compliant systems such as the IBM Power Series desktops/laptops and Motorola PowerStack series; --" 22:45:12 crazy 22:45:16 fizzie: it would reveal how much of a dork I am if I said having a real live non-x86 machine running Windows has been a pipe dream of mine for years now, right? 22:45:27 I mean, I'd get absolutely no use out of it. 22:45:32 elliott: you mean non-emulated, right? 22:45:34 but what a beautiful object it'd be. 22:45:38 because emulated it'd be easy 22:45:40 b_jonas: I said real live :p 22:45:50 I've done it emulated, I think, maybe. it's not as easy as it should be. 22:45:56 elliott: no, I mean the box would be real live, but it ran an x86 emulator with windows in it 22:46:04 oh, well that's boring 22:46:06 that's the config that would be easy 22:46:08 i have a NES, I was born in 1993 when the SNES was getting old 22:46:14 so i'm a dork too 22:46:16 elliott: "Intergraph Corporation ported Windows NT to its Clipper architecture and later announced intention to port Windows NT 3.51 to Sun Microsystems' SPARC architecture,[41] but neither version was sold to the public as a retail product." You should try to get hold of that. 22:46:24 fizzie: woooow 22:46:33 holy crap 22:46:43 * elliott has bricked two PPC macs trying to get unix onto them 22:46:51 Though "announced intention" is particularly vague. 22:47:19 fizzie: I should track down Dave Cutler and pry the Intel i860 version of NT from his cold, dead hands. 22:47:30 (I run an emulated windows 3.11, but that's on an x86_64 machine) 22:47:52 fizzie: I wonder how hard it'd be to get NT 4 running on a PPC mac 22:47:55 I have like 300 DOS games 22:47:55 I mean, very hard, I'm sure. 22:48:01 on this computer 22:48:04 but it sounds kind of like a small matter of (lots and lots of) programming. 22:48:10 and it'd be so beautiful. 22:48:20 sooo beautifulll 22:48:35 I was browsing through my closets the other day (looking for a UK-compatible power cable I knew I had somewhere), and came across the 13W3-to-4xBNC monitor cable for the Sparc/Indy (they share the same Sun 13W3 display connector), and a 25-pin-serial to 9-pin-serial cable I think I used as a serial console for one of them. 22:48:39 like a moon landing or something 22:49:28 What I'm slightly worried about is that I didn't locate the 13W3-to-13W3 cable that used to connect the Indy to its own SGI-issue monitor. But maybe it's in the basement wrapped around the monitor or something. 22:50:01 are you sure the computers are still there? how do you know they haven't fleed? 22:50:10 if your house is like mine then they are still there 22:50:21 whoa, I just realised NTFS = NT FS 22:50:39 I think that's the second most obvious thing I've ever missed 22:50:41 what does NT stand for? 22:50:55 N-Ten 22:50:59 * elliott has bricked two PPC macs trying to get unix onto them <-- what? how? 22:51:02 Incidentally, 13W3 is the silliest connector: it's like a regular "D-style" connector, with 10 regular pins, and then 3 tiny tiny coax-style pins. 22:51:04 because the i680 was codenamed N10. 22:51:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB13W3#mediaviewer/File:13W3_Stecker.jpg 22:51:08 but now it's "New Technology". 22:51:15 *i860 22:51:21 elliott: ...what is the most obvious thing you've missed? 22:51:22 Vorpal: FSVO "bricked" 22:51:39 FireFly: honestly, I've forgotten. but I remember the groans of others when I realised it. 22:51:45 elliott, surly you could just put in a OS CD yeah? 22:51:53 Vorpal: sure if I had one 22:51:55 Technically bricked I guess 22:51:56 Ah 22:52:10 maybe I only bricked one of them 22:52:12 I forget 22:52:17 Still 22:52:25 I managed to get linux-or-was-it-BSD to start to boot on one of them, but then it panicked, and that's it. 22:52:33 Huh 22:52:36 Windows would be way cooler an achievement, though. 22:52:43 I booted a live cd on my ibook once 22:52:48 Hah! 22:52:55 Vorpal: they were an old PowerMac and a G3 iMac, respectively 22:53:02 the PowerMac was more of a fuss 22:53:11 I put a Debian on my Performa I-can't-remember-the-number. 22:53:12 Hm okay 22:53:13 the G3, I just couldn't convince Open Firmware to boot from the CD for whatever reason. 22:53:20 It went in via the MkLinux route. 22:53:31 elliott, First model ibook (G3) is the one I booted from a live cd 22:53:36 fizzie: I think the one I had was a Performa or a Quadra, maybe. 22:53:42 right, I tried MkLinux I think. 22:53:43 Didn't ever go further, due to the 3.2 GB HDD 22:53:49 I tried lots of things. 22:54:00 how many years from now will x86 lose its dominance in PCmarket? 22:54:03 3.2GB? That's plenty 22:54:07 MkLinux is that thing where you have a Mach microkernel, and run a Linux kernel as one of its tasks. 22:54:26 The kind of thing that causes people to make a "kernel on your kernel" jokes. 22:54:28 Oren_: not very soon, I expect 22:54:54 Oren_: more like how many years from now will the PC market dissolve 22:54:58 FireFly, and 32 MB RAM 22:55:01 ARM is the king of the mobile market 22:55:49 but the mobiles are getting bigger and you stick a keyboard onto the side and you have a laptop thingy 22:55:55 Possibly it was just the MkLinux bootloader or something. 22:56:06 I consider that to be a laptop 22:56:28 you consider an iPad to be a laptop? ok. 22:56:31 elliott: no way. there'll always be a PC market. 22:56:41 um 22:56:43 maybe not always 22:56:49 if you came with C not being turing complete 22:56:51 I wish I still had the Compaq Armada 22:56:54 b_jonas: sure, but it might be a mostly-irrelevant one. 22:56:57 but still, it is here to stay for a long time 22:56:58 it is a mini laptop with no keyborad 22:57:02 I think I have an old Thinkpad somewhere around here 22:57:05 it's already becoming that way for many people. 22:57:10 my laptop has a touchscreen 22:57:15 FireFly, anyway I didn't want to remove MacOS, I wanted to dual boot 22:57:18 our perspectives on this as nerds is hopelessly skewed and it's hopeless to generalise from that. 22:57:27 FireFly, as in, classic Mac OS 9 22:57:30 elliott: well, it might become smaller, but still 22:57:36 Vorpal: oh, okay 22:57:50 Oren_: my phone almost has a keyboard 22:57:51 FireFly, now 3.2 GB is not very much any longer :P 22:58:42 my desktop machine has 3.2 gb of cache I think... something like that 23:00:03 nope off by an order of magnitude, butonly one 23:00:05 I doubt that, that seems absurd 23:01:00 Oren_, 3.2 MB seems reasonable, 32 MB seems very large too. But possible I guess. 320 MB I don't believe in 23:01:16 What sort of beast computer is it 23:01:32 it has 3.2 mb 23:01:35 Vorpal: it depends on which level of cache 23:01:46 Oren_, so 3 orders of magnitude then? 23:01:57 some core 2s had 32 mb I think 23:01:59 Vorpal: Depends on your base. :p 23:02:00 dammit i am bad at math 23:02:21 that's why i have computers to do it for me 23:02:21 elliott, really? I know core 2 had large caches, but THAT large? 23:03:08 model name: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8400 @ 2.26GHz 23:03:10 cache size: 3072 KB 23:03:16 Well around 3 MB 23:03:22 well,* 23:03:35 Vorpal: There's a thing on Haswell that there's a bit of DRAM that works as L4 cache both for the CPU and the GPU. 23:03:39 best recent processor from intel is Intel® Core™ i7-5960X Processor Extreme Edition (20M Cache, up to 3.50 GHz) 23:03:46 20M cahe 23:03:52 fizzie, huh 23:03:58 Vorpal: "GT3e [Iris Pro] version with 40 EUs and on-package 128 MB of embedded DRAM (eDRAM), called Crystalwell, is available only in mobile H-SKUs and desktop (BGA-only) R-SKUs. Effectively, this eDRAM is a Level 4 cache; it is shared dynamically between the on-die GPU and CPU, and serving as a victim cache to the CPU's Level 3 cache." 23:04:23 err okay 23:04:32 okay, maybe 12 was the most. still. 23:04:41 It's kind of debatable if that counts. 23:04:57 I have seen POWER CPUs though with 512 MB cache iirc 23:05:00 L3 cache 23:05:05 but that was for HPC 23:05:10 This regular desktop thing reports a cache size of 6 MB. 23:05:47 elliott: I think I mentioned that there's no Linux driver for the Indy's graphics option (XZ graphics)? IRIX would be the low-effort option. (If you can call it that.) 23:06:07 model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2500 CPU @ 3.30GHz 23:06:09 cache size: 6144 KB 23:06:17 That is a Sandy Bridge 23:06:41 And this might be off since it is in a Xen domU: 23:06:45 model name: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2680 v2 @ 2.80GHz 23:06:47 cache size: 25600 KB 23:07:32 elliott: The SS5 has a Sun CG3 graphics card in it, I think, that's very supported. And something fancy in the networking department, I forget exactly what. 23:07:54 fizzie: does NetBSD have a driver for the Indy's graphics? :p 23:08:21 (does NetBSD have a driver for my toaster?) 23:08:28 elliott: I doubt that. It works with a serial console just fine, but that's perhaps kind of missing the point of a SGI box. 23:09:29 I wonder if I got somehow someone to send me one of Sun's quad Ethernet dealies. 23:09:55 Vorpal: "model name: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2695 v2 @ 2.40GHz" "cache size: 30720 KB" 23:10:01 Heh 23:10:24 (The front-end node of our cluster.) 23:10:46 It also has "address sizes: 46 bits physical, 48 bits virtual", which is the most physical bits I've seen so far, at least on Intels. 23:11:10 fizzie, same on the domU I checked on 23:11:13 It is a linode 23:11:34 Well, same family, presumably, based on the model numbers. (E5-2xxxx) 23:11:39 s/xx/x/ 23:11:48 Right 23:12:30 address sizes: 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual is the core i5 above 23:12:38 fizzie: 32 TB of RAM sounds pretty doable 23:12:39 same 23:12:42 I guess you'd be limited by slots. 23:12:52 same on my core 2 duo 23:12:54 do servers with hundreds of gigs of RAM just have ten billion RAM slots? 23:13:17 elliott, you can get 8 GB modules easily these days, maybe larger 23:13:20 elliott: The cluster's got some (2?) nodes with 1 TB of RAM, but that's it. 23:13:31 You can get 8 GB laptop modules even 23:13:52 1024/8 is still 128, though. 23:14:17 -!- Oren_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:14:26 I think the particular server model goes up to 2TB in the configu-o-tron. 23:15:00 http://www8.hp.com/us/en/products/proliant-servers/product-detail.html?oid=4142916 23:15:19 So presumably there are more than 8 GB modules? 23:15:19 "Memory, maximum: 2TB" "Memory slots: 64 DIMM slots" 23:15:28 So 16 GB per module then 23:15:37 Or 32. 23:15:52 (For the 2 TB option; they might well be using those even if you order it only half-full.) 23:16:24 Oh 23:16:36 32 GB DIMM sounds somehow familiar. 23:22:41 The front-end node also seems to have a load average of 17.06, with one MATLAB running at 100% CPU, and exactly 16 cryptically named processes running at 25% CPU. I think someone's running their actual jobs accidentally on the front-end again. 23:22:57 "We ask you to refrain from running multi-GB, many-core applications of the frontend." 23:22:58 heh 23:25:28 night 23:29:58 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:31:50 -!- Dulnes has joined. 23:33:16 Wat oh ive set it to disconnect 23:42:09 -!- dts has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:44:18 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 23:46:45 -!- dts has joined. 23:48:29 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:49:49 hi, sorry about yesterday, I won't stay long 23:50:14 what, the pinging out? 23:50:17 it's okay :p 23:50:31 -!- Frooxius has joined. 23:51:21 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:57:18 :^) 23:58:34 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).