00:00:24 I like how I first joined in 2006 but left seconds later because there were lots of people and it was scary 00:00:27 and then came back half a year later 00:00:37 elliott: BOO! 00:01:22 -!- tlewkow has joined. 00:01:22 -!- tlewkow has quit (Client Quit). 00:01:34 elliott: at least it hasn't yet been longer since i joined than 1993 is before it 00:01:56 when were you actually born 00:02:00 1970 00:02:05 that's such an old number 00:02:07 or so they tell me. 00:02:19 when you said 1993 I instantly assumed it was your birth year until I realised that can't be true 00:02:29 i'm older than INTERCAL you young whippersnappers! 00:02:34 -!- tlewkow has joined. 00:02:48 I'm not even older than brainfuck 00:03:19 so are we all agreed 00:03:25 you're almost as old as the epoch 00:04:01 vanila: I don't know what we're agreeing on but yes 00:04:36 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1). 00:04:47 -!- tlewkow_ has joined. 00:04:59 vanila: O KAY SINCE YOU ISNIST 00:05:13 * oerjan gave up typing that correctly 00:05:17 vanila is NIST 00:05:19 gonna backdoor all the RNGs 00:05:52 vanila: it has always been the sysops selecting _from_ the candidates, when we actually got around to it. 00:06:06 (i probably wasn't a sysop when it started) 00:06:36 Can someone explain how different languages can use rand to solve the Wow problem? 00:06:41 One of my housemates in the shower, and I am very confused 00:06:46 1970, isn't that literally the beginning of time? 00:06:49 Who showers just after midnight? 00:07:01 Other than one of my flatmates 00:07:03 Taneb: your neighbour 00:07:07 *housemates 00:07:08 flatmate, even 00:07:15 AndoDaan: Wow is based on a very common random number generator 00:07:16 Stop correcting yourself 00:07:16 I'm in a house, not a flat, I keep forgetting that 00:07:28 is it curved 00:07:37 -!- tlewkow has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:07:49 Do you look down on flatlanders? 00:07:50 namely, the one in libc iiuc 00:07:53 and most languages have it implemented? 00:08:22 AndoDaan: many languages probably just call out to libc for randomness 00:08:43 ah. 00:09:04 Who are the sysops? 00:09:12 that's why C is winning wow. 00:09:18 oerjan: I think I threatened to op you so that you'd have to select a candidate at one point 00:09:25 vanila: fizzie oerjan me ais523 are the active ones 00:09:30 well 00:09:31 I'm not active 00:09:31 I nominate elliott to do this then 00:09:38 no 00:09:42 aw :P 00:09:42 how about I promote you and you do it instead 00:09:59 What are we selecting candidates for? 00:10:04 would oerjan like to do it? else I shall bother ais and fiz 00:10:05 president 00:10:09 Ah, cool 00:11:10 vanila: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Administrators most of the people on the first half are rarely around these days. 00:11:35 ok, delete them please 00:12:00 Why? 00:12:12 Gregor is only an admin because he's hosting the server, he's not really active inside the wiki. 00:12:18 vanila: https://i.imgur.com/rn0MuWV.png be afraid 00:12:46 >_< 00:12:50 vanila: we cannot delete chris pressey that would be blasphemy hth 00:12:54 true 00:13:25 actually I agree with vanila, we should assassinate the old guard 00:13:45 If Cluid is made Admin they will likely put Janus as featured language based on their edit history 00:13:57 I'm around sometimes. 00:14:24 Gregor: yes, but i think you only agreed to host the wiki on the promise others would do most of the work right? :P 00:14:34 Yup. 00:14:42 Except replace "most" with "all" 00:14:51 Gregor++ 00:15:17 Gregor: well i assume you might still want to keep the server alive since you use it for other stuff... 00:15:43 Fair 'nuff X-D 00:16:55 What are the responsibilities of esolangs.org admin? 00:17:34 keep the wiki from getting shitted up? 00:17:35 Taneb: international espionage, drug smuggling and mail merges 00:17:52 brick requisitioning too 00:18:40 It runs on HP-UX 11, so occasionally you've got to go in to update that too. 00:18:58 AndoDaan: i don't think the fact it uses libc _intrinsically_ means C has to win, since other languages may still give better syntactic sugar for whatever is needed. they just didn't, this time. 00:19:32 [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41160&oldid=41124 * 70.24.86.251 * (+1556) updated documentation for newer, hopefully last, version of interpreter 00:20:14 * Taneb bed 00:21:02 i want to make 'meta' pages maybe that give overviews of thinsg 00:21:13 having just a huge long list of languages is a bit hard to make use of, since the loudest ones win (i.e. bf derivatives) 00:21:43 vanila: I like it when people highlight languages they like on their user pages 00:22:39 [wiki] [[Scrip7]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41161&oldid=41160 * Orenwatson * (+4) corrected example a little. 00:25:20 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/Akc6r.gif). 00:25:37 -!- ^v has joined. 00:35:17 oerjan, so like,maybe I could have burlesque pick 765 or so random numbers between 32 and 127 and maybe just maybe I wont have to add "%95" and all that chaff. 00:36:19 [wiki] [[Scrip7]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41162&oldid=41161 * Orenwatson * (+0) example was still a little wrong. 00:38:05 [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41163&oldid=41162 * Orenwatson * (-26) 00:53:07 AndoDaan: well it's a little unlikely the burlesque uses the right RNG since it is written in haskell and the haskell versions need to use the ffi to get the right random numbers... 00:53:11 *that 00:56:25 Hello 00:57:33 jello 00:57:49 there still isn't a new featured language on the wiki 00:57:57 shocking 00:57:58 oerjan has been slacking off 00:58:04 what the fuck oerjan 00:58:26 wait this wasn't what i agreed to, was it? 00:58:32 I thought we all agreed? 00:58:56 yes, but you started before my name was mentioned hth 00:59:06 i don't need these excuses 01:00:00 i need them hth 01:00:31 * oerjan was about to capitalize i for emphasis 01:00:35 oerjan: ok, if you're not cheating (whitespace doesn't count) then I'm missing some trick :) 01:00:47 * oerjan cackles evilly 01:01:02 oerjan: I had to change the search order slightly to make the wrapping cheat work 01:01:10 ah. 01:01:25 i tried two options and neither worked. 01:01:37 interesting 01:01:43 (one worked on just the 1st and 3rd test case) 01:02:06 I tried two options and one worked? or perhaps ... let me double check 01:02:54 oh wait did i do that 01:03:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:03:51 ...what i changed has nothing to do with the search order. 01:04:30 which makes it really mysterious why one option worked differently than the other. unfortunately i didn't save those attempts. 01:05:16 never mind, if my algorithm is beating you overall... 01:06:06 right, time for the cheat. 01:06:20 (since I'm finally satisfied with my encoding) 01:06:40 eek 01:07:25 sic transit gloria mundi 01:08:32 fizzie: int-e just beat you hth 01:19:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:20:14 -!- shikhout has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:23:30 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:24:06 -!- olsner has joined. 01:29:42 int-e: you were right, changing order helped 01:29:51 once i found the right spot to do it 01:32:01 although the point of a half-cheating solution that doesn't actually win may be considered dubious 01:32:51 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 01:38:12 that's interesting though; I only have one binary choice for the searching order in total. 01:38:23 well me too really 01:39:04 as i said, what i thought was changing searching order previously was probably just introducing a bug that caused it to always fail 01:39:38 meow 01:39:40 hi 01:39:45 helliott 01:40:23 oerjan: do we have a new featured language yet 01:40:27 nope 01:40:46 i don't think you've ever managed to make me write a blurb hth 01:41:19 vanila can write a blurb 01:41:22 (this is incidentally the part i think the proposers might do) 01:41:35 btw I'm not sure janus would be a great feature since probably its authors don't consider it esoteric :/ 01:41:39 um 01:41:54 wait was janus what we all agreed to 01:42:03 in that case, i retract my agreement 01:43:03 i think this is an appropriate thing to be two-faced about hth 01:43:24 it doesn't have to be janus 01:43:27 just use anything 01:44:00 likw... Rail for instance. 01:44:10 like* 01:44:25 i don't think Rail is esoteric, or do we have a language called that 01:44:33 -!- Dulnes has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:44:48 isn't it that trains one? 01:44:53 hitting random about six times gave me esme 01:44:53 yeah. 01:44:55 so let's feature that 01:45:04 it's almost april 2015 and we're really late for april 2014 01:45:11 elliott: i think that's a definite April feature 01:45:14 and it is really well documented. 01:45:41 the scariest part of the esme article is This article is a stub, which means that it is not detailed enough and needs to be expanded. Please help us by adding some more information. 01:45:45 please don't 01:46:13 I think Janus is esoteric 01:46:27 how about Clue 01:46:49 clue is a great language and pretty unusual for an esolang and it has a good article with examples, though unfortunately no implementation that's on the web :/ 01:47:11 vanila: I think so too but there's a degree to which "esoteric" is a self-applied thing 01:47:42 it's definitely like, on-topic for the wiki but singling it out as representative of esolangs could be odd if it wasn't intended that way 01:48:43 vanila: have you seen Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck 01:48:45 that's the best bf derivative 01:48:58 i don't think it's eeven in any categories 01:49:13 luckily it's pretty easy to find, since "Brainfuckiest" isn't a common term 01:49:13 it's too perfect for that 01:49:20 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck 01:49:20 How to write a good Clue implementation? 01:49:23 it's like the easter egg of the wiki 01:49:50 vanila: brute force, more or less; the restricted structure of branching/recursion and the fact that you get specified every part that should be used to build it in the bag makes brute forcing pretty easy 01:49:57 I think the article describes pretty much the entire algorithm 01:50:44 basically it brute forces a program structure from a very simple template given all the parts that aren't the structure and a specification to check against 01:55:44 you know, i don't think i've read that Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck article properly before 01:56:01 read it solemnly 02:04:03 -!- Tod-Autojoined has changed nick to TodPunk. 02:04:24 -!- PatriciaM has joined. 02:05:31 . 02:06:20 -!- PatriciaM has left. 02:06:26 checkin for notes 02:07:30 oops missed a canaima 02:17:01 -!- tlewkow_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:22:28 there. *now* I'm beating fizzie 02:22:42 cheating, of course. 02:22:53 int-e: um i thought you already did 02:23:09 check the language list at the bottom 02:33:38 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page cool! Someone updated the Featured Language bit 02:35:03 vanila: you're getting very close to a promotion here :P 02:40:16 -!- adu has joined. 02:41:42 oerjan, thoughts on Janus 02:47:19 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 02:47:39 -!- adu has joined. 02:51:16 -!- dts has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:51:38 what's racket's call/cc for delimited continuations thing called again? call/ec? 02:51:48 RESET and SHIFT 02:51:58 but maybe you dont mean that? 02:52:59 http://esolangs.org/wiki/AttoASM 02:53:15 reset and shift might be better actually, thanks 02:55:15 -!- dts has joined. 02:56:42 I think the reversible language idea I mentioned earlier would be better described as a language made for a type of WPU. 02:58:03 What is WPU 03:06:04 "AttoASM is a language designed for the AttoWPU experimental processing unit, as part of the WPU (Weird Processing Unit) concept. " 03:06:50 -!- dts has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:07:07 oh 03:12:49 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:18:34 -!- dts has joined. 03:29:22 oh the pendulum, i remember reading about that 03:30:07 right, i was confusing delimited continuations with escape continuations. 03:30:37 luckily delimited continuations do not make sense to me. how to implement them, or why you'd use them 03:30:55 they're difficult to implement! 03:30:59 imo 03:31:52 oerjan, is it acceptable 03:33:12 vanila: what 03:33:15 Janus 03:33:21 i've not got to janus yet 03:33:21 you mentioned that the authors dont consider it eso 03:33:24 oh sorry 03:33:34 also, i'm saying no. 03:33:39 no to what 03:33:58 i dont mean for the feature thing just being on the wiki at all 03:34:12 i'm not going to accept a language that has just been added to the wiki, even if it's esoteric. 03:34:14 janus is definitely on topic for the wiki 03:35:47 litmus test: it should have been long enough on the wiki that i only remember it because it was actually interesting... 03:37:20 so's the pendulum. although what happened to that Honorary Esolang category idea. 03:44:17 -!- dts has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:45:12 [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41164&oldid=41156 * Oerjan * (-1) superfluous blank line 03:45:48 -!- dts has joined. 03:48:51 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 03:51:52 [wiki] [[Scrip7]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41165&oldid=41163 * Oerjan * (+1) another one, and bullets 03:53:31 [wiki] [[Scrip7]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41166&oldid=41165 * Oerjan * (+6) /* External Resources */ um, or maybe like this 04:10:56 Thanks, oerjan. Question. If I wwere to set my mind to investigate whether MNNBFSL was TC or not... should I start by trying to implement some basic BF algorithms in MNNBFSL? 04:14:05 -!- dts has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:16:41 maybe you could compile a language like WHILE into it 04:19:28 eek, mixing http and https does nothing good for visited links coloring :( 04:20:10 im plying with MNNBFSL 04:20:14 Translating Brainfuck itself should work. 04:20:40 vanila: there is no language WHILE on the wiki 04:20:48 WHILE isn't esoteric 04:21:17 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:21:20 that makes it very unlikely to be small enough to be easily used for this. 04:21:22 -!- AndoDaan_ has joined. 04:22:29 Ah, the stacks start out empty, that makes things a bit trickier than I thought. 04:22:43 you basically want the simplest already known-TC language that fits as well as possible 04:22:48 [< puts 0 on the data stack 04:23:19 at the start of program 04:23:23 [< puts 3 on the data stack 04:23:24 vanila: That's the easy part. But it means that some special handling is required to extend the tape. 04:23:49 you don't need two-sided infinite for bf 04:23:58 i could put any numbers onto the data stack 04:25:05 vanila: I didn't say it was an obstacle, it's just a complication. 04:27:12 I wonder how to compile recursive functions 04:27:17 to MNNBFSL 04:27:40 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 04:28:00 calling convention for main loop: [function number][arg1][arg2].. ..stack bottom| 04:28:41 at any point in code you can push a value onto the stack using [<--------- or [<++ 04:29:12 vanila: you can only easily push values close to the PC value, though. 04:29:25 but thendo + or - lots, it will be inefficient but I dont mind 04:29:58 vanila: that will give an at _least_ exponentially growing program 04:30:18 well i'm not saying it won't work, but there has to be a more convenient way 04:30:35 so, let's find out... 04:30:38 and there's actually something funny here ... one cannot use [<++++... to push a later address on the stack. So you need a loop (which is entirely possible) to circumvent that. 04:30:52 int-e: heh 04:30:58 you can manually set addresses 04:31:33 as long as the top of the dStack is positive, any value on the top of the rStack sets the ip. 04:31:51 AndoDaan_: yes. 04:32:03 a later address on the stack? 04:32:05 [<+[-"] does that work? 04:32:20 ohhh 04:32:41 it would require infintely many +'s 04:33:04 oerjan: I mean a pointer into the program. 04:33:26 int-e: i'm still at the earlier question of how to push small values 04:33:29 ... 04:33:40 ah. 04:33:54 just [< followed by some adjustments. 04:34:20 well +[-"] is meant to zero a non-negative value 04:34:21 it may result in some big programs but it'll work in principle :) 04:34:51 without having tried, yours looks like it is a position-independent zero, yeah. 04:35:57 MNNBFSL PIC. hmm hmm. 04:38:21 there's no one-cell way to do 0 -> 1; 1 -> 0; anything else -> irrelevant in BF, is there? 04:38:38 hm you cannot skip code without knowing the address 04:38:43 (of the target) 04:38:48 relative or absolute 04:39:09 elliott: nope 04:39:22 if you have any loop, you end up with a constant. 04:39:27 righ. 04:39:28 t 04:39:32 if you don't have any loop, you're obviously adding one. 04:39:34 so emulating boolfuck with bf is kinda wasteful 04:39:45 oerjan: well, perhaps you could have meta-opcodes that check a flag to see whether they should be executed or not. 04:40:06 so they all skip ahead by a small, fixed amount 04:40:08 int-e: hm i suppose 04:40:37 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 04:40:49 but I see no big deal in having to know the (relative) address of the target 04:41:05 i'm assuming this language has bignum cells 04:41:07 http://lpaste.net/raw/115070 04:41:10 There's hello world 04:41:19 in badcode 04:41:54 oerjan: the implementation uses size_t for cells. 04:42:05 the spaces increas the counter and you can use ]<. to output the value. 04:42:10 not sure what the intention is. it's written in C after all. 04:42:28 int-e: well without the assumption you're not TC at least 04:42:38 since you cannot jump to arbitrary program spots 04:42:44 or well 04:42:46 you can 04:43:02 Btw, funny things happen when you drop " ... I expect it remains TC, but it cannot do any interesting text processing. 04:43:05 AndoDaan_: not if the program is longer than maximal cell size 04:43:15 oerjan: all you need is implement one universal TM 04:43:38 int-e: um right 04:43:45 pesky I/o 04:44:28 [+>-<] isnt this to add two numbers? 04:44:44 vanila: ] destroys the tested value 04:44:55 so [+>-<"] 04:45:01 or to move a value, yes. 04:45:03 hm i hav einfinte loop :( 04:45:09 ... or do we want [->+<"] 04:45:20 looping through all of size_t takes some time 04:45:31 [<">++++++++++"[->+++++++++<"]>sets the top value of the dstack to 100 04:45:49 i cant pop without writing to stdout?? 04:46:04 [] 04:46:18 vanila: yes you can. basically, [], but that's not quite the right offset 04:46:57 [<+++++[<[->+<"][]. 5+7 :D 04:47:52 hm 04:48:37 Actually, hmm. How do I pop the temporary that I needed to pop a value from the stack? Heh. 04:49:16 oh. 04:49:55 it's just [-"][] isn't it. 04:50:28 and you just did that. [] pops a zero. 04:50:47 wait doesn't [] leave garbage on the return stack? 04:50:55 after popping a zero off 04:51:02 i prefer +[-"] if we assume unbounded cells 04:51:15 because it doesn't infloop on zero 04:51:20 -!- AndoDaan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 04:51:22 in fact it pops everything up to the first zero on the data stack 04:51:25 oerjan: good point 04:51:40 omg this langauge is really hard to program in 04:52:15 surprising. it looked pretty boring at a glance. 04:52:26 yeah its good! 04:55:16 i was wondering how to do a switch(function) { case 1: jump f1_code; ... } type thing 04:55:25 then I could compile recursive functions to it hopefully 04:55:57 the problem int-e mentioned is seriousl though 04:56:10 you can't jump over code, so f1_code must be written after this switch 04:56:17 that means I cannot use th stupid inefficient number literals trick 04:56:28 Set up targets on the return stack, each pointing to a -]. 04:57:51 i feel like not being able to pop without printing is a problem 04:59:04 So there's a viable plan, actually; have a dispatcher at some huge address 4^k, which then jumps back to whatever code fragment is currently being executed. 04:59:10 vanila: we can pop without printing 04:59:13 I guess you can just past [ by doing <-> 04:59:14 before ] 04:59:19 jump* 05:00:05 I think ill need a more efficient way to encode numeric litearls 05:00:18 int-e, how? 05:00:27 +[-"][] 05:01:01 set value to zero, [ pushes something on the return stack, ] pops a zero and something from the return stack, and does nothing. 05:03:08 [<+++++[<[->+,"]+[-"][]. 05:03:12 -!- ^v has joined. 05:03:15 ive got an infiniet loop in my new 5+7 program 05:03:41 -!- Dulnes has joined. 05:04:16 what's that comma? 05:04:35 i wrote it by accident! I deleted it and still loop 05:04:46 it should be a < 05:04:51 Quick name an estoric language you've never wanted to try 05:04:55 Also hi 05:05:03 thanks! Now it works perfect 05:05:27 this language only supports positive numbers? 05:05:45 Are there any good esoteric languages that do balanced ternary? 05:06:03 Not that ive found 05:06:23 Dulnes, I don't want to program in Dulnes Lang 05:06:34 Mmm 05:06:38 Funny 05:08:24 [<">++++++++++"[->+++++++++<"]>sets the top value of the dstack to 100 05:08:30 does it have any other effects? 05:11:25 Thats rude vanila =~= 05:11:31 what is? 05:11:44 110 0 / 1 05:11:47 this is what it gives me 05:11:53 Hf 05:11:57 310 0 / 21 05:12:00 if i put some spaces before 05:12:21 I wonder how to swap the top two stack elements 05:13:11 is it even possible 05:13:11 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:14:35 http://lpaste.net/115077 05:14:39 I gues it could be done like this, if i have subtract 05:16:55 that was wrong, i added a right way 05:17:56 -!- tlewkow has joined. 05:18:11 a b / --> b-a / 05:18:13 how do you do that though? 05:18:54 [->-<] pop 05:19:18 What are you using 05:19:32 MNNBFSL 05:19:42 Oh 05:19:57 Well then out of me field 05:20:17 Slowly withers and dies 05:20:52 Hhh this is troublesome ;-; 05:21:45 vanila: something like [<[-"]<<+[>>+<<-"][]>- perhaps? 05:22:05 vanila: for swapping the top two elements of the data stack. 05:22:15 that gave me rstack underflow 05:22:16 -!- tlewkow has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:22:20 but maybe im using it wrong 05:22:58 -!- tlewkow has joined. 05:23:09 i cant put [ example ] and have a [ next to it with a space and it gets all jumbled so [ example ] [ example ] because ] space [ is deleted and it merges the bottom and top lines 05:23:27 I think ive broken it 05:23:31 oh, there's something wrong. [<[-"]<<+[>>>+<<<-"][]>- perhaps. 05:23:36 Deletes it all 05:25:11 vanila: Perhaps I should just say what the idea is: given a *b, push a zero, a b *0, then add the a to that zero, 0 b *a, finally pop that 0. I'm not certain that I got the directions right. 05:25:37 fungot: have you met Dulnes? 05:25:38 int-e: so, hey, it was our table! if he's interested! correspondingly, zombies! my day is ruined, you guys.". ahem. one day a big crime is committed and the only guy i've ever felt that long, doctor professor jim junior, and that someone could've been me 05:26:28 And also charactors such as [] + - , < arent accepted as a space i should just start over 05:26:43 http://lpaste.net/115080 i got swapping this way 05:27:13 int-e, your way seems much better! 05:27:17 using 3 things is much faster 05:27:55 Flips a table 05:30:25 https://github.com/yshl/MNNBFSL/blob/master/example/fizzbuzz.bfsl 05:30:27 -!- mitchs has joined. 05:30:28 how is mod % done? 05:30:42 ">[<[-"]<[->+"---[<"[-"]++++[>++++++++<-"][]>]--- <"][] 05:30:44 seems to be mod3 05:31:01 int-e's idea works with very small change: [<+[< s [<[-"]>>[<<<+>>>-"][]<< s 05:31:09 was lurking :p 05:31:19 in stalker mode 05:32:14 22 67 / 05:32:14 22 67 71 73 / 05:32:14 22 67 73 71 / 05:32:17 i get that when running it 05:32:30 [ 12 » 2 » ]+[ integer => 24 ]++[ method]]-[1] none of the + - are working and it just adds [ 12 » 2 ]+[ integer => 14 ]++[ method]]-[0] 05:32:42 ther seems a problem with the code 05:32:54 it is 1 3 and then becomes 3 1 05:32:55 * Dulnes is very much done with math 05:33:30 mitchs: so I did get the directions wrong. thanks! 05:33:38 sure :) 05:33:46 ok but i cannot run your code correctly? 05:33:53 oh 05:34:02 I have to delete [<+[< 05:34:19 ok works perfect now :D 05:35:49 Well then im dumb it was the ++ comments they deleted the method 1 but idk why 05:36:22 Sorry, does anybody know what Dulnes is talking about? 05:36:38 -!- adu has joined. 05:36:43 is this your first time talking to Dulnes 05:36:48 I like to talk to myself ;-; 05:36:55 Crazy me 05:37:01 elliott: I'm not talking *to* Dulnes, I'm talking *about* Dulnes. 05:37:13 Mmm thanks 05:37:37 elliott: but I think you've answered my question. Thanks. 05:38:00 I should just make my own language 05:38:04 yes 05:38:29 Dulnes: I'd say you're doing just fine with your version of english. 05:38:49 Dulnes: do you have any evidence that this weird language you keep quoting code snippets with unbalanced brackets from actually exists 05:39:19 Hmm. I'm grumpy, bbl. 05:39:28 Well i created it so not really i found i dont need balanced brackets 05:39:57 I should just go back to normal coding :\ 05:40:26 [< [-'] 05:40:29 does this push 0 onto the data stack? 05:41:15 looks like it! 05:43:39 Elliot is very snippy today he usually never talks to me 05:44:59 I realized aproblem 05:45:06 [<[-"] only works if it isn't at position 0 05:45:07 vanila, yshl is keeping the remainder underneath i and repeatedly incrementing it and comparing with 3 05:45:30 well, a copy of i, which he decrements as he increments the remainder 05:45:49 now i have PIC 05:46:20 mitchs, thank you! 05:46:31 oerjan: Dag-nabbit. 05:48:17 how 05:48:18 h 05:48:20 oerjan: Maybe I'll have to cheat too. 05:48:23 what is 0 - 1? 05:48:25 does it wrap around 05:48:27 or clamp to 0 05:48:33 elliot = [m] 05:48:37 Mwhhaha anyways 05:48:40 Gnight 05:48:51 Only i get joke 05:49:10 Dulnes: btw if you want to ping me it's "elliott" 05:49:14 vanila, it takes effort, but you can read the code piece by piece 05:49:55 mitchs: hmm, I know your name from anagol, right? 05:49:57 at line 8, variable i is initially at the top of the data stack 05:50:18 Ive never noticed that other t :0 05:50:26 hi elliott, yeah that's me :) 05:50:29 i wonder how much of my code breaks when values are 0 05:51:22 mitchs: coming to spy on all the new golfers' techs 05:51:32 the first two characters (">) duplicates i and puts it on the return stack 05:53:08 well i would look at the live code log from time to time but figured i had something to contribute so joined 05:53:14 codu* 05:53:27 (codu.org) 05:57:05 kind of surprised/unnerved anyone actually uses stalker mode :p 06:00:47 i didn't feel worthy to join for lack of haskell and burlesque knowledge ;) 06:02:15 oerjan: There we go. 06:02:24 vanila> [<[-"] only works if it isn't at position 0 <-- well then use [< there hth 06:02:32 yes that helps 06:02:56 im writing product now 06:02:59 so i can do small products 06:03:04 3*5+2 for example 06:03:15 oerjan: My cheating version timed out on the first submission on test 3, and the performance checker gave it 0.989 and something. Living on the edge here. 06:05:37 stack underflow :( 06:06:16 >>push 0<<[>'[>>+<<-]<-] 06:06:17 how does that look? 06:06:19 it doesnt work 06:06:44 i fixed it 06:06:48 i had to ' before ] 06:06:54 fizzie: his dc version still beats you, though >:) 06:07:37 does anyone have a way to decompose a number into the form a*b+c with a,b,c smallest? 06:08:02 oerjan: I noticed. I don't have any idea how it's done -- probably something really clever. 06:08:20 vanila: you want a and b to be close to the square root 06:08:21 what do you mean by "a,b,c smallest" 06:08:32 well i dont mean anything especially rigorous 06:08:39 although that's probably not an exact rule 06:08:52 just make them small so I can emit code of the form push a push b * push c + 06:09:01 to encode numerals more efficiently 06:09:21 vanila: have you looked at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants 06:09:31 it may be slightly relevant 06:09:45 (the non-wrapping ones) 06:09:49 thats the sort of thing i have in mind, im writing a program to do it 06:10:14 oerjan: Even allowing for dc's one-byte commands, I wouldn't be surprised if his dc solution was translatable to something much shorter than I have in Burlesque. :/ 06:10:29 you probably are more interested in multiplying by a constant rather than pushing a constant and treating it as a variable 06:10:39 oh good point!! 06:10:44 multiply by immediate is really important 06:11:37 vanila: you basically only need multiplication by 2 to do binary encoding 06:11:55 oh that is excellent I can use binary 06:12:51 that might not always be most compact though 06:12:54 fungot, predict the future of the universe please 06:12:54 mitchs: it's so good, dromiceiomimus. do i seem to see them, but they all suspect he's sad. they say " are you alright 06:13:04 still its efficient enough for me) 06:13:23 -!- dts has joined. 06:13:45 hmm optimism with a touch of sadness 06:14:26 vanila: the nice thing about calculating all jumps as global addresses is that you then have the return stack free to use for the other half of a tape 06:14:43 yeah 06:14:48 fungot: well done. that surely brightened my mood :) 06:14:48 int-e: so people can bet in-game money to win real-life money?' then tony and louisa q were two people in love! romantic love, but there's a rude jerk, and then they both said the next few days were going to me, the omniscient. the dude has to sleep! superman could laser him from orbit while he's having nappy times! enter only if you have a valid passport to dreamland!" 06:14:49 I need to use hard coded addersses 06:14:52 "names" 06:15:05 vanila: you might want to code an assembler for this :P 06:15:08 I am! 06:15:14 excellent 06:17:21 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:17:55 oerjan: would it be hard to make a minsky machine? with counter operations it's usually easy to undo the effect of a loop, so skipping ahead may not be necessary 06:18:29 and you only need a finite amount of stack, assuming unbounded cells. 06:19:26 -!- ^v has joined. 06:20:24 int-e: i dunno, but it seems to me that vanila has got the essential ingredients for brainfuck now 06:20:33 its annoyingly hard to do binary 06:20:49 numbers like 1011 are ok but ones like 10100000 are annoying 06:21:10 or maybe thats not it 06:21:15 vanila: you mean converting in your head? 06:21:36 the problem is 0 06:21:58 vanila: 0 just means you skip an increment 06:22:05 between the doublings 06:22:27 (or before/after, at the end) 06:23:06 > ((0+1)*2*2+1)*2*2*2*2*2 06:23:07 160 06:24:03 my binary ocnverter is broken 06:26:32 vanila: you can do it backwards with recursion. binary(x) = if x == 0 then make a zero else if x is odd then binary(x-1) ++ increment else binary(x/2) ++ double 06:27:01 ok! 06:27:11 i think i mixed haskell and pseudocode in maximally confusing way there, hope it's clear 06:27:27 http://lpaste.net/115085 06:27:28 ig ot this 06:27:48 binary numbers 06:28:20 good 06:29:07 -!- dts has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:29:50 one minor problem here is that the length of a number representation isn't constant, so you _might_ get complication calculating addresses that depend on each other's representation length... 06:30:02 yeah 06:30:07 this can be fixed with padding at worst 06:30:08 but thankfully i can pad 06:30:22 http://lpaste.net/115087 06:30:24 this is what i have so far 06:30:46 fizzie: holy cow, what are you spending all this time on! 06:31:19 (Well, half-rhetorical question. I can imagine at least one possibility, actually.) 06:33:38 you only need to pad forward references, fwiw 06:34:55 hmm, i wonder if a straightforward-ish translation of daniel b cristofani's dbfi into mnnbfsl would be possible 06:35:08 (goto address) => (push-binary address) (emit #\]) 06:35:21 and then the assembler will work out addresses for all labels 06:35:31 and insert gotos with padding 06:35:39 possibly you could keep track of the end of the simulated data array with a marker and expand as necessary 06:40:06 i need conditionals I guess 06:40:49 oh right 06:40:49 if i have goto, conditionals, then maybe using the two stacks I can simulate a fixed number of integer variables and a stack 06:41:13 but maybe i should just look for a turing complete stack language to encode 06:41:13 vanila: no, you can simulate an entire brainfuck tape 06:41:19 like some kind of minimal forthy thing 06:41:25 two stacks gives a tape 06:41:34 id like to use something else than brainfuck 06:41:40 oh. 06:41:53 well then you can consider int-e's minsky machine idea 06:42:31 that requires cell values to be really huge, though. 06:42:44 (compared to program size) 06:43:08 i should maybe compile recursive functions including mu minimzer 06:43:16 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:45:09 i guess a minimal forthy thing will work, that also needs both stacks in full 06:45:31 or well 06:46:10 Hhh night 06:46:21 unless you use unbounded integers, but then you're back to recursive functions 06:46:44 Hhh yourself 06:46:56 grr 06:46:59 hthis is dificult 06:47:24 i can define a table of words by name and they can call each other 06:47:30 adn they can manipulate stack 06:47:31 Hhh myself¿ 06:48:02 anyway, what you've got + conditionals should give you all you need to construct a lot of possibilities 06:48:12 why not godel encoding 06:48:23 Dulnes, i'm operating under the idea that Hhh is not an actual word 06:48:27 Bicyclidine: then you're back to the minsky machine 06:48:34 or recursive functions 06:48:36 Say it outloud 06:48:45 That is the sound im making atm 06:49:03 im making a new stacky language 06:49:05 i never did figure out how that shitty register machine was turing complete 06:49:14 Ofc hhh isnt a word wth did you think it was 06:49:23 Bicyclidine: via godel encoding, really 06:49:36 a Dulnesism 06:49:37 -!- ZombieAlive has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:49:42 Hope harriot helps 06:49:45 IF (else then predicate - result) 06:50:01 mitchs: no need to be rude 06:50:02 if predicate is 0 result=then, otherwise result=else 06:50:11 and things like +, *, dup, swap 06:50:14 i thought i was joking 06:50:32 in a non-rude way 06:50:34 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 06:50:40 :T alas i cannot understand jokes 06:50:46 Sorry mitchs 06:50:50 oerjan: yeah i was just having trouble understanding how to use godel encoding with the paucity of instructions. i don't doubt it's possible, but still 06:50:51 Dulnes, good night 06:50:58 vanila: if you make a new stack language then you have to prove _that_ TC as well :P 06:51:21 Thanks for making it seem you want me gone 06:51:42 np 06:51:44 well i want you gone now, congrats 06:51:52 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: [a→b]--[a→((E*a)+b)). 06:53:44 Bicyclidine: basically you use godel encoding to encode an n-register machine with a 2-register one 06:54:25 yes i get that 06:54:26 for this to work, you need to be able to divide a number by a prime and check the modulus 06:54:30 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AnneFrank * New user account 06:54:42 which you can do with iterated decrement 06:55:39 then, once you have n-register machines, you use 2 cells with base k encoding to give you a tape of cells with k possible values 06:56:06 i wonder if ` s k execution would be easiest 06:56:21 (each cell gives you a stack) 06:56:51 oh and a temporary register to help multiply/divide by k 06:57:10 the assemblr is a bit tricky 06:57:30 vanila: i'm pretty sure a turing machine thingy is simplest here 06:57:39 if i have code like this x (goto Label3) y Label1: z w Label2: e h y Label3: 06:57:43 or minsky machine, if you have unbounded cells 06:57:58 i do not really know how large the goto code will be until I know where Label3 is 06:58:13 i can try to allocate enough space for it and pad 06:58:17 vanila: that's why you need the padding? 06:58:30 but still, i do not know for sure what amount of padding to do 06:58:35 it might have to retry with more 06:59:14 it would be nice to get it right on first try 06:59:15 vanila: you can use algebra and keep the padding a variable until you know how big the entire program expands to 07:00:13 calculate addresses as a + p * b, where p is the unknown padding 07:00:28 this should allow you to calculate this in two passes 07:00:51 what are a and b? 07:01:02 depends on program code 07:01:35 increment a every time you insert a normal command, increment b every time you insert a padded value 07:02:05 oh ! 07:02:08 that sounds clever 07:02:20 mind you, you can _probably_ overestimate p if you know the maximal length of the expanded program. 07:02:29 ill try to implement it tommorow 07:02:30 are you generating position-independent code? 07:02:34 int-e, yes 07:02:41 no 07:03:00 that would require using relative addresses. still possible, but a bit more complicated. 07:03:11 if you would, you could work inside-out when translating code. 07:03:25 ah, there's a downside to everything 07:03:30 you'd have to add a calculated offset to the current program counter 07:03:35 oh neat 07:05:10 -!- ^v has joined. 07:09:41 -!- ^v has quit (Client Quit). 07:12:19 -!- vanila has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:16:11 Gooood morning 07:17:18 hi de ho 07:21:12 I think my sleep schedule is back into something sensible 07:21:20 I've woken up before 2 PM 07:21:22 int-e: I don't know what I'm spending the time on, it just turned out that way. 07:22:16 Taneb: 's ok i can balance you out 07:22:30 :) 07:26:01 -!- Patashu has joined. 07:27:40 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:29:21 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 07:29:21 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 07:43:01 blsq ) 5ro2CBSn 07:43:02 {{1 1} {1 2} {1 3} {1 4} {1 5} {2 2} {2 3} {2 4} {2 5} {3 3} {3 4} {3 5} {4 4} {4 5} {5 5}} 07:43:05 @fizzie 07:43:06 Unknown command, try @list 07:43:09 (1.7.4) 07:49:02 a @fizzie command might be useful 07:52:13 Is there no String -> JSONStuff? 07:52:20 oerjan: What'd it do? 07:52:32 I don't want stuff like readJSON :: String -> Result a 07:52:41 fizzie: various stuff 07:54:07 mroman: What do you want, then? 07:55:27 how much memory is good for an esoteric language? 07:55:36 should 64k be enough? or is 2GB limit better? 07:55:45 depends on the language 07:56:34 similar to brainfuck 07:56:59 scoofy: 59049 bytes are enough to be interesting 07:57:04 scoofy: Well, you don't necessarily have to have a hard limit (although some implementations might) 07:57:12 i dunno, i'd go for 59067 07:57:15 sure. i'm just wondering what advantages that might bring. 07:57:33 Bicyclidine: that's not a nice power. 07:57:43 int-e: I'd like to have 343 memory cells instead 07:57:46 using some wraparound modulo arithmetic 07:57:50 Bicyclidine: I did not make up that number, hth. 07:58:10 honestly, any size of p^n with a prime p ought to be enough 07:58:10 mroman: JSonStuff is known as Value, it is an instance of the conversion classes 07:58:19 for example, if all cells are 16 bit, and all memory addresses are 16 bit, then the two can be mapped. 07:58:25 which fits to 64k 07:58:29 (and a positive n to be sure) 07:58:36 (and an integral p and n to be extra sure) 07:59:20 Bicyclidine: in fact, the number comes from https://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge 07:59:55 lifthrasiir: 7^3, now that could be fun. 08:00:38 lifthrasiir: sorry, took me a moment to realize that you did not typo 243 = 3^5 there. 08:01:20 are there any other prime power that are exactly 100 apart? 08:02:24 int-e: um, 1 and 101? 08:02:32 maybe Pell's equation? have to look at it. 08:02:47 int-e: also 7 and 107 08:02:50 there are lots 08:03:01 b_jonas: Right, I guess I wanted the exponent to be different from 1. 08:03:02 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:03:40 (and 0!) 08:04:02 here's a big list of prime powers if you just want to work on the numbers http://oeis.org/A025475/b025475.txt 08:04:03 and that's an exclamation mark, not a factorial. 08:04:14 (with exponent 0 or >= 2) 08:05:26 int-e: Do you want to reveal whether your 64B dc just encodes the outputs instead of actually doing the work? 08:05:49 int-e: 25 and 125 08:06:25 but probably no other case 08:06:34 "D is open source" 08:06:50 "Worried about redistribution? Don't be: Just ask Walter. He may be under obligation to require his permission, but it's only a technicality. Ask him, and he'll grant permission. He hasn't been known not to. " 08:06:56 I don't think that's sufficient for Debian 08:07:13 (Although there are other compilers that are actually OSS) 08:07:28 fizzie: I already said that it's cheating. 08:07:29 Sgeo: yes, it is not sufficient. 08:08:01 fizzie: though I guess that was directed at oerjan. 08:08:05 afaik DFSG requires that the non-interactive agent can get the license ("lonely island experiment" I think?) 08:08:17 I need to get into the habit of putting on a wash more often 08:08:24 I'll probably have to do three loads today 08:08:29 int-e: Well, you know... there's cheating, and then there's cheating. The Burlesque I tagged as "cheat" just cheats by a little bit, in that it'd fail for some subset of puzzles. 08:08:41 int-e: But good to know. 08:08:50 fizzie: same here, but the subset is a tad smaller ;-) 08:09:17 i checked that (25,125) and (243,343) are the only such pairs in that file 08:09:29 fizzie: err larger, since you spoke about the set where it would fail 08:09:46 lifthrasiir: I se ereferences to it but not the test itself 08:09:50 Granted, I tried to make a trivial base-30-encoded-outputs in Burlesque, and ended up with 134B due to overhead. 08:10:04 it's not so hard, the prime powers are 4 8 9 25 27 32 49 121 125 128 169 243 289 343 361 529 841 961 1331 1369 1681 1849 2048 2187 2197 2209 2809 3125 3481 3721 4489 4913 5041 5329 6241 6859 6889 7921 ... 08:10:21 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.curiosa/4526 08:15:12 @metar LOWI 08:15:12 LOWI 260750Z 08005KT 9999 FEW006 BKN009 06/05 Q1016 NOSIG 08:15:31 I don't know the code of my nearest airport :( 08:15:40 I don't even know what my nearest airport is! 08:16:46 . o O ( google: airport nearby ) 08:16:49 does that work? 08:17:42 well at least it turns up a couple of sites that promise to find airports 08:17:57 I feel sick 08:18:01 Ate so many twizzlers 08:18:42 help 08:19:32 ... 08:19:58 "The nearest major airport is Leeds Bradford International Airport (LBA / EGNM). This airport has international and domestic flights from Leeds, United Kingdom and is 33 miles from the center of York, United Kingdom." 08:20:02 Sgeo: I'm imagining this is a serious request and trying to figure out what kind of help we could provide. 08:20:04 @metar EGNM 08:20:05 EGNM 260750Z 05005KT 020V090 3000 -RADZ BR FEW002 SCT011 BKN035 05/05 Q1014 08:20:27 I generally use http://weather.elec.york.ac.uk/ now 08:20:40 Some goatse link, perhaps. 08:20:43 It's only a mile away from my house 08:20:48 @metar ENVA 08:20:48 ENVA 260750Z 10005KT CAVOK M00/M00 Q1026 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 15013KT 08:22:53 help there is no temperature here 08:22:58 Reassuring me that either it's not possible to puke in sleep or that I would wake up shortly first would help 08:23:06 or perhaps it's just cowing out 08:23:40 hm i'm not sure that is a phrase 08:24:34 Apparently it can happen. I'm scared now :< 08:24:58 Sgeo: you could try puking before going to bed hth 08:25:05 * oerjan mean 08:25:17 Can too much sugar even cause this? 08:25:51 Sgeo, try going for a bit of a walk to settle your stomach? 08:30:22 oerjan: ty, just did what you suggested 08:30:25 (not voluntarily) 08:34:20 ouch 08:36:20 On the plus side, I feel much better now 08:36:29 Almost scary that it was red, but not really 08:42:06 -!- nooga has joined. 08:46:44 Sgeo, hope you are OK :( 09:04:19 -!- dts has joined. 09:05:27 Freezing cold and not sure why,, other than thstt I'm fine 09:08:01 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:09:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 09:18:16 -!- tlewkow has joined. 09:22:44 -!- tlewkow has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:24:24 -!- heroux has joined. 09:24:33 -!- Dulnes has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:33:05 -!- vanila has joined. 09:33:12 hyello 09:35:22 hyi 09:36:40 I added labels and push label-address operations to that MMBF 09:37:13 this gives us GOTO 09:37:24 stack + goto means we can do procedure calls and recursion 09:38:11 Still feeling a bit nausous. Not as much though 09:38:12 Ugh 09:38:29 you're working with a modified version of the language, or you found ways to implement things in the language ? 09:38:42 i wrote an assembler which compiles these features into the original language 09:38:48 ah, cool 09:38:48 so this would be useful for proving TCness 09:40:50 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:47:08 we know how to permute the top of the stack 09:47:14 in any rearrangement 09:47:22 and can compute things like +, * etc.. 09:49:22 -!- heroux has joined. 10:00:59 @metar EFHK 10:01:01 EFHK 260950Z 19008KT 1700 -DZ BR SCT001 BKN002 04/04 Q1025 NOSIG 10:01:20 -DZ 04/04 so wet. 10:06:49 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:10:55 hi fizzie 10:11:10 would you like to change the featured language on wiki front page? 10:28:39 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:38:36 I'm not sure. I don't generally "do things". Would it be into something listed at [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] and with a good article about it in addition to being otherwise interesting? 10:39:18 yes 10:39:20 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Current 10:39:27 I guess its this page which gets edited 10:40:00 Eodermdrome, Funciton and Rail were suggested, I don't think it matters which is picked any should be fine 10:40:08 (any of the candidates, not nec. one of those 3) 10:44:14 Oh. I would need to write a blurb. I don't think I can do that right now, but I might attempt it in the evening, if I remember. 10:45:16 thank you! 10:45:32 you could just copy the start of the article 10:45:35 so you don't have to write it yourself 10:45:39 but you can if you like 10:49:02 -!- heroux has joined. 10:50:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:56:50 -!- nooga has joined. 11:08:23 -!- scoofy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:13:07 Wow, henkma. Right, if f terminates the program then we can schedule as many calls of it in a row as we like... phew. 11:14:26 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:14:26 int-e, were you interseted in the stack brainfuck? 11:15:49 -!- heroux has joined. 11:16:43 variable: MNNBFSL? Yes. 11:19:10 I wrote an 'assembler' which adds labels and a command to p ush the addres of a label (computed in binary) to the stack 11:19:39 so this gives you ability to e.g. perform recursive functions like how assembly does it 11:20:35 -!- boily has joined. 11:20:53 -!- scoofy has joined. 11:36:08 Nice. (Sorry, I am interested but I don't really have the time to look at stuff in any detail.) 11:39:23 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:46:54 -!- heroux has joined. 11:50:29 -!- shikhin has joined. 11:50:32 -!- shikhin has quit (Signing in (shikhin)). 11:50:32 -!- shikhin has joined. 11:51:01 -!- shikhin has changed nick to Guest93337. 11:52:01 -!- Guest93337 has changed nick to shikhout. 11:52:29 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin. 11:54:00 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 12:06:57 09:09 < fizzie> Granted, I tried to make a trivial base-30-encoded-outputs in Burlesque, and ended up with 134B due to overhead. 12:07:01 ^- what overhead? 12:07:28 fizzie: I want something that allows me to map JSON values to Burlesque values 12:07:39 readJSON :: Int sucks 12:07:59 I'd rather want case read of JSInt i -> ... JSString s -> .. 12:08:26 Hey, mroman. 12:08:31 since I don't know the type ahead using :: is not for me 12:08:39 AndoDaan: hey 12:09:19 I finished the burlesque interpreter for MNNBFSL. 12:09:26 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:09:44 Seems so trivial in hindsight. 12:09:55 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:10:01 Cool AndoDaan 12:10:05 did you make MNNBFSL 12:10:48 No. I think it was a friend of hinichiro. 12:10:54 shinichiro. 12:12:06 I just got interested in it because it was new on anagol. 12:12:40 i see 12:13:11 I skimmed the logs, vanila. Do you feel closer to thinking MNNBFSL is TC? 12:13:31 well I think someone smart might prove it TC in a much easier way 12:14:07 mroman: Isn't that just runGetJSON (fmap burlesqize readJSValue) inputString where burlesqize (JSInt i) = x; burlesqize (JSString s) = y; ...? 12:14:13 but to me this confirms that it is TC for sure 12:14:31 it doesnt count as a proof but the construction is mostly, you'd have to do conditional branching 12:16:08 Maybe that's overly low-level, I don't know how the package is constructed. 12:25:12 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PROTOTYPIC CHICKEN). 12:29:40 -!- heroux has joined. 12:31:10 -!- scoofy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:36:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:52:03 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:58:17 [wiki] [[Scrip7]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41167&oldid=41166 * Orenwatson * (+219) Added explanation of name 13:09:44 I just got interested in it because it was new on anagol. ← perhaps anagol could use an "interpret burlesque" task 13:10:27 -!- heroux has joined. 13:10:33 it would have to be a subset of burlesque's commands. 13:10:46 burlesques has lie 13:10:56 like 348 different commands. 13:11:44 are there any golf problems which were solved by writing an interpreteR? 13:12:01 deadfish. maybe a complete BF 13:13:03 and underload. 13:13:14 2 13:13:57 vanila: Perl's s///gee stuff can sometimes be viewed as implementing ad-hoc DSLs. 13:14:21 thats so cool 13:14:27 "minimal scheme interpreter" & "minimal postscript interpreter" too. 13:14:58 AndoDaan: those don't really work on anagolf, because you can't easily give inputs that can really only be solved by writing a general interpreter 13:15:37 in fact, on any golf server it would be very hard to write good tests for it that cover everything 13:15:53 vanila: so that's a question. if somebody does some stuff on a string to produce a bunch of code that is then evaluated, have they written a compressor for code or an interpreter for a weird language? 13:16:29 I think there is a close relation between decompression and intepreters ! :) 13:17:06 Oh, we're dangerously close to rediscovering Kolmogorov complexity. 13:17:07 :P 13:17:16 woot 13:17:22 it would be my first time. 13:17:34 hmm, that reminds me 13:17:43 Make 24 is now post-mortem, let me see what people submitted 13:18:08 yeah... that was a fail of a question. 13:18:24 looks scary 13:18:36 i wonder what to do now 13:18:43 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Make+24 13:19:34 -!- GeekDude has joined. 13:21:21 i could make al anguage out of nand gates 13:21:25 + memory 13:21:48 you write CPU like this: (NAND X (NAND ... .. (NAND ... ))))) 13:22:28 its not TC since you can only address finite memory but you can do real programming with it 13:24:26 you wouldn't even need to be able too loop right? as long as you copy and branche any sequence of instruction of a wanted loop. 13:24:50 (sorry, my terms are terrible). 13:25:25 well it would be run in a loop 13:25:32 like a CPU cycle 13:26:20 so you could design your own instruction set and program it, or make a special purpose cpu 13:27:23 aren't all average computers{cpu s} basically nand logic gates and memory? 13:27:32 yea :) 13:27:40 ... 13:28:05 i just realized 13:28:09 this is a nand TREE 13:28:13 so it's very bad to program in 13:28:21 immense code duplication 13:29:11 that's how I saw it. 13:30:27 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:31:44 (I say "saw it" but my grasps of these concepts are nowhere near concrete) 13:31:54 im just bored i dont know what to do now 13:32:23 clue looks interesting. 13:32:29 yeah it is 13:33:00 in the discussion i was surprised that it's possible TC ness wasn't dismissed outright. 13:36:57 I can't even begin to see how one would try and implement any usefull and understandable instructions in it. 13:37:38 it feels like a <2 dimensional CA. 13:37:46 AndoDaan: the same could be said about Conway's game of life. 13:38:10 That still fascinates me. 13:41:04 I mean, I can grasp using standard stable pattern to build standard stable processes, but how anybody worked out to use floaters{?} and the guns to interact like logic gates... Amamzing 13:41:36 gliders and spaceships 13:42:15 its very clever 13:42:25 people systematically tried all possible ways of up to three gliders to interact, and less systematically beyond. 13:42:26 have you seen glider gun? 13:42:40 Have you seen rakes? 13:42:51 videos of it. 13:43:22 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Conways_game_of_life_breeder.png 13:43:24 like this? 13:43:35 oh it makes glider guns 13:43:47 "A rake is a puffer whose debris consists of spaceships." 13:44:16 id like to play with Golly 13:44:17 yeah, I think I watched a tc machine in gol vid not too long ago. 13:44:30 i like the meta life 13:44:50 gol made in gol? 13:45:13 or space fillers (though those are of little interest for TC of GoL) http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Max 13:45:15 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:45:24 yess 13:45:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP5-iIeKXE8 13:45:59 -!- heroux has joined. 13:46:11 -!- atehwa has joined. 13:46:42 so freakin' awesome. 13:51:35 vanila: that's awesome. 13:53:06 John Conway talks about the Game of Life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8kUJL04ELA 14:01:34 I always thought the live\die interpretation of the rules weird. 14:03:18 -!- drdanmaku has joined. 14:03:31 why? 14:06:29 I'm much more comfortable with having every possible neighbours states defined. 14:07:13 I guess I'm more use too 1d ca s, where that's easier to visualise. 14:11:15 Time for some sleep I think. See you guys later. 14:11:15 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:11:21 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Quit: Quit). 14:22:28 -!- heroux has joined. 14:27:50 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:34:37 -!- heroux has joined. 14:40:14 `fromroman LXXXIV 14:40:16 84 14:41:38 -!- j-bot has joined. 14:42:37 [ 91+2*3 14:42:51 [ 91+2*3 14:42:51 b_jonas: 97 14:42:58 `toroman 97 14:43:00 XCVII 14:43:58 -!- MDream has quit (Quit: later chat). 14:44:19 -!- MDude has joined. 14:48:10 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 14:53:10 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:04:28 -!- tlewkow has joined. 15:13:27 -!- Koen__ has joined. 15:23:34 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 15:23:48 -!- nycs has joined. 15:24:05 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v. 15:38:48 -!- heroux has joined. 15:40:48 -!- GeekDude has joined. 15:43:29 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:47:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:47:51 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:52:10 -!- shikhout has joined. 15:54:13 -!- Koen__ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?"). 15:55:43 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:05:14 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:11:09 -!- vanila has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:18:23 -!- `^_^v has joined. 16:18:29 -!- nycs has joined. 16:18:46 -!- nycs has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:19:31 -!- abibepo has joined. 16:20:15 ? 16:20:26 -!- abibepo has quit (Client Quit). 16:22:02 that was quick 16:42:18 -!- heroux has joined. 16:56:51 -!- G33kDude has joined. 16:57:01 fizzie: hah, "supercheat" 16:58:41 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin. 16:59:11 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:59:18 -!- G33kDude has changed nick to GeekDude. 17:00:31 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 17:01:16 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:03:41 didn't you, though 17:04:53 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:05:40 cheat? well, of course. 17:14:32 -!- MoALTz has joined. 17:16:13 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 17:16:29 -!- idris-bot has joined. 17:21:16 -!- vanila has joined. 17:24:20 -!- L8D has left. 17:27:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:27:20 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 17:32:07 int-e: Admittedly it's not very "super" lengthwise. 17:39:25 (It's the kind of thing with one character for each pair of numbers, so technically 45B of payload, but the formatting code is quite long. Selecting the right string I got done rather compactly, at least.) 17:40:57 -!- vanila has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:44:02 I could cut off 9B if I could embed arbitrary octets in a string. 17:49:44 -!- heroux has joined. 17:53:49 -!- scoofy has joined. 17:59:22 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 17:59:46 -!- tlewkow has joined. 18:02:56 -!- mihow has joined. 18:08:15 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0). 18:08:38 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:08:39 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:16:24 -!- heroux has joined. 18:17:17 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:19:54 -!- MDud has joined. 18:20:34 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:21:24 -!- tlewkow has joined. 18:24:05 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:25:41 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 18:28:08 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:30:03 -!- heroux has joined. 18:39:10 -!- hjulle has joined. 18:39:23 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:51:10 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:14:57 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:20:44 -!- tlewkow has joined. 19:39:46 -!- ZombieAlive has joined. 19:44:09 -!- heroux has joined. 20:06:18 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:07:32 -!- heroux has joined. 20:10:56 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:14:00 -!- Patashu has joined. 20:29:51 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:32:12 Now it's 27B of data out of 82B, so the ratio's gotten even worse. 20:40:38 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:42:16 -!- GeekDude has joined. 20:42:34 -!- dts has changed nick to WillBot. 20:49:04 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:49:21 -!- WillBot has changed nick to dts. 21:20:16 -!- dts has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:20:33 -!- nooga has joined. 21:41:49 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:42:04 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:48:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:48:23 -!- tlewkow has joined. 21:50:58 -!- heroux has joined. 21:52:59 -!- shikhout has joined. 21:56:17 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:57:03 -!- MDud has changed nick to MDude. 22:03:38 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 22:05:12 -!- GeekDude has joined. 22:10:04 `danddreclist 59 22:10:06 danddreclist 59: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex 22:11:30 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:13:12 -!- tlewkow has joined. 22:14:41 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:18:28 Perl is a scary language and I do not like it 22:20:59 I ♥ PCRE 22:21:18 -!- tlewkow has joined. 22:28:13 Taneb: Do you prefer AWK? 22:28:26 zzo38, I have not used AWK 22:33:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:35:04 What is a good language for demonstrating call-by-reference? 22:36:07 pascal 22:39:29 -!- Dulnes has joined. 22:40:13 oh mccarthy function is over 22:40:54 It almost seems like Rust has more of an opinion on mutabiltiy than Haskell. Haskell is theoretically everything is immutable, but ultimately, you need to use the IO monad, where anything goes. In Rust, it's not anything goes even though it's implicitly in the IO monad like most languages 22:40:54 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:44:47 -!- tlewkow_ has joined. 22:47:47 -!- dts has joined. 22:48:15 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 23:01:34 Well, in Haskell in the IO monad there are even a few things which are mathematically improper. In my opinion should be avoided as much as possible, although in some cases it is good to keep them for example ability to execute pointer operations which might or might not affect the rest of the program in proper and improper ways. 23:07:57 b_jonas, I was thinking. a anagol problem asking to implement a language, if you not only ask for the impleted language output, but also for complete code state each for each step, that would come close to forcing a 'true' implementation, right? 23:08:07 hey zzo38 23:08:51 AndoDaan: I think it might come closer than otherwise, but still it can involve a cheat possibly; there is also the possibility that the specification of a language might not specify exactly how some of the internal state might be. 23:09:31 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:11:00 -!- nooga has joined. 23:11:03 hmm. output of an uncertain state could just be the list of all possible symbols that state could be. 23:11:27 it probably wouldn't narrow much down for some bit, I guess. 23:11:52 "0..9 a..zA..Z" 23:14:09 but making sure the to be implemented language is has a clear and easy to read system state would help that issua. 23:14:25 Yes that is one way, if it is such a language. 23:15:06 I'm only thinking about possible low level languages for implementation, like string replacement or cell based. 23:21:12 then again, maybe I'm creating too many big codegolf problems. But it's hard to come up with a basic algorith that hasn't been asked already. 23:31:44 I invented two more pokemon cards 23:34:04 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 23:36:24 @tell int-e Wow, henkma. Right, if f terminates the program then we can schedule as many calls of it in a row as we like... phew. <-- fiendish 23:36:24 Consider it noted. 23:39:52 fizzie: I want something that allows me to map JSON values to Burlesque values <-- i told you, use the Value type for that. 23:40:08 @tell mroman fizzie: I want something that allows me to map JSON values to Burlesque values <-- i told you, use the Value type for that. 23:40:08 Consider it noted. 23:41:31 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:41:37 `` ln -s dontaskdonttelllist bin/don\'taskdon\'ttelllist 23:41:42 No output. 23:42:09 does mercurial handle hard links? 23:42:35 i'm not sure it handles symbolic ones 23:42:44 well, that is 23:43:36 help is codu.org down 23:44:09 You can go directly to http://www2.codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi if you want the fshg browser. 23:44:17 ("Pro tip".) 23:44:52 is a pro tip given to a pro or given by a pro? 23:45:00 or does one become a pro by virtue of receiving it? 23:45:15 I don't think the giver or givee really factor in -- it's just that the content is on a "pro level". 23:46:09 Is a pro tip more reliable than a con tip? 23:46:44 The teacher can be a fool, as long as the student is wise 23:52:43 If a thing has an attribute that was formerly negative but due to changed circumstances is so no longer, is that an "ex-con"? 23:54:41 -!- adu has joined. 23:54:56 Depends on if the tipper knows if it's an ex-con or not. If s/he knows its an ex-con but tips it unchanged it was actually a protected ex-con. 23:55:16 ie a +1 con 23:56:26 add a little non-verbal signalling and it's mankind's favourite pasttime. 23:56:34 dicking people over. 23:57:25 -!- ZombieAlive has quit (Remote host closed the connection).