00:00:28 <oerjan> i mean something like S -> E c, S -> F d, E -> a, F -> a
00:02:30 <oerjan> "the example gramar is SLR"
00:02:54 <oerjan> anyway i _think_ my grammar there is LALR(1) but i'm a _little_ vague on the concept.
00:02:56 <zzo38> Yes that grammar seems to be LALR(1) (at least, it can be parsed by Lemon)
00:03:41 <oerjan> and it has such a case where a can reduce to E or F dependent on lookahead.
00:03:44 <zzo38> And in the output I get state 1 reduces 3 in the case of the "d" terminal and otherwise reduces production 2.
00:04:44 <oerjan> let me look at what SLR is, i don't think i have seen that explained before
00:07:13 <oerjan> oh. looking at the third paragraph of the "Lookahead sets" section, i think it's also SLR.
00:07:47 <zzo38> Lemon uses lowercase for nonterminals and uppercase for terminals though, so that is how I input it. (It also requires a full stop after every production.)
00:08:19 <zzo38> What class of grammars are produced if you have the restriction that no more than one kind of reduce is allowed in each row?
00:08:23 <oerjan> oh. wikipedia had it the other way around.
00:09:18 <oerjan> it's still more powerful than LR(0), i think.
00:09:42 <oerjan> well, almost obviously.
00:11:39 <zzo38> I notice in your example, if the last two productions are given the same action symbol then you can combine them if those are the only four productions in the grammar. (If they have no action symbols at all, then you can even omit it and put S -> a c, S -> a d)
00:13:34 <oerjan> well that thing happens with minimal examples, i'm sure.
00:13:44 <zzo38> What kind of program do these kind of compressions?
00:17:15 <zzo38> I want to make shift-reduce parser for text-adventure game, and to compress the tablse. I thought of some ideas of such thing.
00:17:20 <Sgeo> I can't tell if I actually enjoyed staring at the Sun or just the fact that I can say "I stared at the Sun"
00:18:57 <zzo38> One is that if different kind of words have the same meaning in all cases then they can be given the same token number (for example "N" and "NORTH" in most text-adventure games)
00:19:48 <zzo38> Nonterminals might also (probably less commonly) be combined in the same way, as well as possibly terminals with nonterminals.
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00:22:06 <zzo38> Another is that if a production has the same LHS, length of RHS, and action symbol, as another production, they can be considered as the same one within the parser table.
00:23:11 <zzo38> (An example is if two words which can have different meanings in some cases, still have the same meaning in this particular case.)
00:30:57 <zzo38> I thought of storing the tables so that the driver might work something like this: S is the current state, T is the parse table, and X is the current symbol. If T(S)=X and T(S+1)>=0, push T(S+1), set S to T(S+1), read the next token, and try again. If T(S)=X and T(S+1)<0, set S to ~T(S+1), read the next token, and try again.
00:34:27 <zzo38> If T(S)=0, signal an error and stop. If T(S)=1, stop, signalling an error if we aren't at the end of the input. If T(S)>1, then it is a reduce; rewind the token reader, set X to ~(T(S)&127), read the next (T(S)>>7)&15 entries from the table and write them into the parse output buffer, pop (T(S)>>11)&15 entries from the stack, peek the top of stack and set S, and then try again.
00:34:40 <zzo38> In all other cases, increment S by 2 and then try again.
00:35:15 <zzo38> How well should this work for a text-adventure game?
00:37:06 <zzo38> (Also, all numbers are signed 16-bits numbers.)
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01:00:00 <oerjan> and THERE it's the past again.
01:13:09 <Jafet> That looks like some rather severe clock drift
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02:17:46 <oerjan> oh duh the dst ending is why vim was behaving silly and thinking files had been changed after it wrote them
02:59:00 <Sgeo> `slist (second 10/25 update)
02:59:00 <HackEgo> slist (second 10/25 update): Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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04:38:01 <zzo38> If I made computer game based on things I dreamt, then, first you should have to select a character, and there should be one room that change every time you blinked, and also involving pokemon, and the elevator having floors labeled by colors instead of by numbers
04:38:14 <zzo38> (and then more than just that, too, probably)
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05:03:56 <elliott> oerjan: wow, it doesn't use unix time?
05:04:05 <elliott> oh... I guess windows stores mtimes as, like, timezoned times?
05:04:57 <zzo38> I think there is some option in the registry to tell Windows to internally store UTC times, although I don't know what it is; at least I think I have heard that somewhere.
05:12:28 * oerjan now vaguely recalling that being discussed before and something about it breaking stuff
05:28:27 <Sgeo> How much is reasonable to pay to see a total solar eclipse + aurora borealis?
05:28:53 <zzo38> It depend where you live, I think
05:29:18 <zzo38> As well as various other things, such as your desires
05:34:58 <Bike> just steal like five welding masks and stack them ontop of your face
05:41:29 <zzo38> 8/8/8/8/7R/7R/3RR1B1/R3K1kB DR. White to move. Where is white's original queen's rook? (This isn't so difficult, I figured it out quickly)
05:41:44 <zzo38> Choose from: h4, h3, d2, e2, a1, or it has been captured.
05:42:30 <zzo38> Why do you think it is that one?
05:45:42 <zzo38> "DR" means that before the last move was made, checkmate was still possible on at least one side if the players cooperate to make it so.
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06:08:22 <oerjan> Bike: wait, five? i distinctly recall using my uncle's one mask back a few years ago. that was for the venus passage though, i think.
06:08:59 * oerjan isn't entirely sure it was his uncle's. or which uncle. but anyhow.
06:46:46 <int-e> zzo38: cute pattern. "black's last move was forced, therefore it must still be possible to mate black now"
06:58:43 <Bike> oerjan: it's for styl
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14:39:57 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Not all welding masks are created equal; in theory you can replace a stack of five shade #X masks with a single shade #Y mask, where Y=5*X-4. (It's a logarithmic scale with an offset.)
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14:56:27 <J_Arcane> Yaaay. Installing a new video card. Now comes the joy of figuring out which of the utilities on the CD are actually necessary for card functions, and which are unnecessary rubbish.
14:58:33 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: most likely none are necessary
14:59:08 <J_Arcane> Well, one of them is supposed to control the inbuilt overclock management. I think.
14:59:13 <fizzie> I was assembling a computer for a friend recently, the graphics card came with a "driver CD" that did not contain a driver.
14:59:36 <fizzie> It contained a launcher thing that could install some random fluff, but for the drivers it just had "install from our website" links.
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14:59:51 <fizzie> (Of course the computer wasn't networked at the time.)
15:07:03 <J_Arcane> Yeah, looks like it just has an app to let you quick switch manually between a few default clock settings.
15:07:29 <J_Arcane> But any modern video card should be adjusting power and clock settings automatically anyway, so basically useless.
15:07:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: they also come with a "manual" that tells how to start the program from the cd
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15:34:06 <mroman> dell - some time ago - had those practical driver CDs
15:34:27 <mroman> where the drivers really were on the CD and it just detected missing drivers and installed them
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17:32:10 <zzo38> Do you know it is possible for a serious philosophy text to consist entirely of jokes?
17:33:36 <myname> i thoucht most of them do
17:33:52 <zzo38> Most of them? Are you sure?
17:34:01 <zzo38> I only know of one.
17:34:18 <zzo38> Principia Discordia
17:34:42 <myname> principia discordia is serious business!
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17:35:21 <zzo38> I didn't say it wasn't.
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18:40:03 <Sgeo> " The Union forces frequently named battles for bodies of water that were prominent on or near the battlefield; Confederates most often used the name of the nearest town. As a result, many battles have two or more names that have had varying use, although with some notable exceptions, one has tended to take precedence over time."
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19:18:26 <b_jonas> fungot, are you still mad at me?
19:18:26 <fungot> b_jonas: oh, i must have put that in your pipe and smoke it? how do people have to choose a time where it turns out, at exactly 10:04 p.m.! i was the stereotypical ignorant racist
19:20:14 <Sgeo> Do I have to read the Scala spec in order to understand Scala?
19:25:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:26:59 <MDude> I keep mistreadting oots as oot and thinking it's Orcania of Time.
19:27:58 <MDude> D isn't even near t.
19:28:17 <myname> i am always thinking it's order of the stick
19:28:22 <int-e> there's a subconscious "mistreating" in there
19:28:28 <MDude> Wait, that's not it either?
19:30:01 <MDude> I think I was going to type that differently and then presumed whatever I thought first was probably wrong?
19:30:17 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
19:30:40 <fungot> int-e: " and the creator of a great leader" in name only, you know, the additional evidence relies on other peoples' behavior to keep, and it was wrong, so no, and i need, a random castle
19:30:41 <MDude> Wonder what europarl is.
19:30:55 <int-e> speeches from the european parliament
19:31:06 <myname> a random castle is all you'll ever need
19:31:28 <MDude> Fisher isn't fisher price manuals, is it?
19:31:54 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
19:32:08 <fungot> int-e: ( ( oh do you go to in philadelphia
19:32:19 <int-e> fungot: call me later
19:32:19 <fungot> int-e: really it was annoying to that extent
19:32:30 <int-e> fungot: you know, never call me again
19:32:30 <fungot> int-e: puzzles would be fun to do and stuff from sigh you know why
19:32:43 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
19:33:34 <lambdabot> LOWI 261920Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW015 SCT020 BKN027 09/07 Q1028 NOSIG
19:33:51 <MDude> fungot: Dispense wonderous wisdom.
19:33:51 <fungot> MDude: good, good. my partner and i were to be connected to anything especialy scandalous. it, uh,, we need to get, and i'm a skeleton, 30 for that, my family would like my mode of transit returned, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, li
19:34:08 <int-e> ah, wall of text, very ootsy
19:34:25 <myname> "ootsy" is a great word
19:34:25 <MDude> do I not, liertenant
19:34:43 <fizzie> All of the styles have that little descriptive thing that is said when you select them.
19:35:19 <int-e> fizzie: right but is it possible to see it without selecting the style?
19:35:53 <fizzie> Well, unless you have a copy of the styles.list file.
19:36:05 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
19:36:06 <fizzie> fungot: Can the sword alone stop you?
19:36:06 <fungot> fizzie: in the middle ages, sir slush!... ...oh well! come again! these are my friends! irreparable! please! pretty please! hmmm, two-legged, walking humanoid robot! incredible!
19:36:08 <int-e> @google styles.list
19:36:24 <lambdabot> Plugin `search' failed with: <<timeout>>
19:36:53 <fizzie> fungot: Are you going to be controlling a two-legged, walking humanoid robot?
19:36:53 <fungot> fizzie: frog will do. fail to live up to your potential! you'll learn! sealed, you'll be in danger. open hatch.
19:37:09 <int-e> fungot: but frogs have four legs
19:37:09 <fungot> int-e: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch.
19:37:24 <fizzie> It really wants to see that hatch open.
19:37:37 <int-e> but it'll put us in danger
19:37:48 <fizzie> fungot: Can we open the hatch but avoid danger somehow?
19:37:49 <fungot> fizzie: that sword alone can't stop, crono! lucca's device is all we could get... out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
19:38:20 <fizzie> That's from one of the hardest-to-get endings.
19:38:29 <fizzie> Also one of the most jokey ones.
19:39:00 <fizzie> It's Marle and Lucca making off-color jokes about male NPCs, pretty much.
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20:09:37 <SignX> What I was wondering; is there a standard problem or application with which you can implement to find out whether a programming language is Turing-complete or at least expressive enough to be useful in practice?
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20:11:22 <zzo38> SignX: Of course you can try to implement a Turing-machine, or a brainfuck interpreter or something like that
20:11:26 <int-e> SignX: it's common to give a translation from a turing complete language, or implement an interpreter for such a language.
20:13:38 <zzo38> Why does Lemon use lowercase for nonterminals and uppercase for terminals, while many books are instead using uppercase for nonterminals and lowercase for terminals?
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20:16:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: I believe uppercase for terminals is the usual convention (not enforced) in yacc, because the symbol for a nonterminal is usually also used as a constant exported to C source code, and for that uppercase is conventional
20:16:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know about lemon, but the same might be happening
20:16:27 <int-e> that would be my guess as well
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20:16:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, I think uppercase for nonterminals is the case only when you use single letters,
20:17:13 <b_jonas> I think books use lowercase for everything when they use full words
20:17:18 <zzo38> In Lemon only terminals are exported into a C header files
20:17:40 <b_jonas> yes, terminals are exported to C source code
20:17:46 <int-e> Wheras in textbooks, I suppose terminals could be english words and non-terminals need to be distinguished from those.
20:17:59 <b_jonas> terminals are exported because the input (lexer) has to emit them
20:18:11 <zzo38> (The names of nonterminals are unimportant outside of the grammar definition file, and possibly a report file)
20:19:10 <SignX> Ok, an interpreter for a turing complete language sounds good and I assume brainfuck is turing complete?
20:19:20 <fizzie> There are some "standard" languages/systems for showing TC-ness. BCT, Brainfuck and Unlambda (well, S and K), perhaps? And maybe the two-counter Minsky machine.
20:19:53 <fizzie> Brainfuck is probably the most popular one.
20:20:31 <SignX> Ok, I suppose I first have to learn Brainfuck, then...
20:22:02 <fizzie> You don't have to know the tricks and conventions of "practical Brainfuck programming" to implement it, just the basics; and those are quite simple.
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20:26:41 <fizzie> (Depending on your target language, something else than Brainfuck can be easier.)
20:27:54 <b_jonas> hehe, "practical brainfuck programming"
20:29:08 <fizzie> You know, the kind of things you need to know to get your MCBPs (Microsoft Certified Brainfuck Professional).
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21:13:15 <FireFly> fungot: and here I thought Bike was a *bi*cycle...
21:13:15 <fungot> FireFly: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself!
21:15:19 <Bike> are you /nick'd "human"? no? WEIRD
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21:24:14 <fizzie> fungot: Just Google it, I'm sure there's a photo.
21:24:14 <fungot> fizzie: as long as you keep crono in your heart, the day of lavos"... go to " leene square" 1000 a.d.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
21:24:34 <fizzie> Spooky, but our only hope.
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21:35:39 <zzo38> I have the algorithm for deciding shift states to encode Z-machine text strings, but now I want to describe it in a plain text and I am a bit confused how to do that in a good way.
21:37:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: use words like "dynamical programming algorithm" and "nondeterministic finite state translator" and stuff like that
21:37:32 <zzo38> That doesn't explain the algorithm though.
21:38:19 <b_jonas> Bike: http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=759
21:38:36 <zzo38> I have both a Haskell code and a C code. The Haskell code is: addCharCost ccm costs ch = (\s2 -> minimum ((\s1 -> ccm s1 s2 ch + (costs !! s1)) <$> states)) <$> states; stringCost ccm (c : cs) = foldl' (addCharCost ccm) (flip (ccm 0) c <$> states) cs; bestCharCost ccm costs ch = (\s2 -> minimumBy (on compare snd) ((\s1 -> let { (a, b) = costs !! s1; } in (s1 : a, ccm s1 s2 ch + b)) <$> states)) <$> states; bestCost ccm (c : cs) = first reverse . mi
21:39:14 <b_jonas> (that comes back as a plot point in strip 764)
21:39:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: too long for a line
21:39:35 <zzo38> I mean I like to write a pseudocode with explanations
21:40:16 <zzo38> b_jonas: Which one did you miss?
21:41:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's truncated after first reverse . mi
21:41:33 <zzo38> bestCost ccm (c : cs) = first reverse . minimumBy (on compare snd) . map (\(a, (b, c)) -> (a : b, c)) . zip [0..] $ foldl' (bestCharCost ccm) ((,) [] . flip (ccm 0) c <$> states) cs;
21:42:00 <b_jonas> good. I won't try to understand that now though
21:53:18 <elliott> b_jonas: I am shocked that anyone has actually read those comics
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21:59:35 <b_jonas> elliott: what? I love it! sure, part of it is prejudice, because it's the webcomic that's introduced me to the world of webcomics, but still.
21:59:42 <b_jonas> elliott: why are you shocked?
22:00:02 <b_jonas> also, some people read the weirdest things on the internet
22:00:10 <elliott> because, like, of all the curiosities I found poking around qntm.org years ago... :p
22:00:21 <b_jonas> that's from way before qntm
22:00:34 <b_jonas> it's had like two different urls before qntm even started to exist
22:02:14 <b_jonas> elliott: also, it's a completed webcomic strip. how many of those do you know?
22:03:02 <elliott> the world would be a better place if more webcomics stopped being produced, yes :P
22:03:21 <b_jonas> no no, just stopping to be produced doesn't make a _completed_ webcomic
22:03:29 <b_jonas> I know lots of stalled or abandonned webcomics
22:04:33 <b_jonas> besides stickmanstickman, there's oneoverzero (which was completed _before_ stickmanstickman), irregular webcomics, casey and andy, triangle and robert, and I think that's about all
22:04:54 <b_jonas> (there's also comics on indefinite hiatuses)
22:05:10 <b_jonas> (well, that's the same as "stalled" only the author has put up a note to that effect)
22:05:42 <b_jonas> wow, so there's quite a few
22:06:26 <elliott> does CAD count? I'm joking; please don't shoot me.
22:06:48 <b_jonas> elliott: hmm, maybe. I didn't follow CAD much so I can't tell. you could also ask about userfriendly.
22:07:06 <elliott> I guess CAD more "imploded under the weight of its own horror".
22:07:15 <elliott> jesus christ, is userfriendly still a thing
22:07:46 <b_jonas> maybe if a comic has never had a coherent plot, then there's not much point asking if it's completed
22:08:17 <b_jonas> but stickmanstickman, oneoverzero, irregular webcomics, casey and andy, ozy and millie all have finales that are actually a good closure
22:08:50 <b_jonas> and I sure hope OoTS will be completed one day within my lifetime in a similar way
22:09:58 <fizzie> I think I've removed a couple of finished ones from my list, but I haven't kept track.
22:10:02 <elliott> tempted to say problem sleuth but it would just be a bitter, bitter homestuck joke
22:11:01 <b_jonas> then of course Darths and Droids has a good chance to run to completion too, because they're dedicated, but it's sort of dependent on how many sequels Disney makes to the movie
22:12:21 <b_jonas> And I guess QC has at least some chance to eventually get completed.
22:12:33 <fizzie> b_jonas: "DM of the Rings" got completed.
22:12:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh true! I forgot about that
22:14:25 <b_jonas> (well, of course there's a selection bias. there's lots of comic strips abandonned after a few dozen strips that nobody knows about)
22:14:31 <fizzie> Wikipedia has a "List of webcomics" but no "List of completed webcomics". Though the former does have ending dates for some.
22:14:47 <fizzie> They're all "notable", according to the start of the article.
22:15:09 <b_jonas> there's lots of huge lists of webcomics. I can link a few if you want.
22:15:34 <fizzie> Bruno has apparently concluded "properly".
22:16:22 <fizzie> (I didn't read it, but I had come across it.)
22:18:08 <zzo38> There is also level20.tex which is incomplete, but that is a book and not a webcomic, but nevertheless it is having the notifications of being updated. Other than that, it doesn't count, of course.
22:18:50 <zzo38> b_jonas: Just because it is abandoned after a few dozen strips, still it might be possible that many people know about it, actually (although I don't know how common this is?)
22:19:42 <fizzie> b_jonas: Also 8-Bit Theater.
22:19:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: that's completed? I never really got into that comic
22:20:04 <fizzie> It was completed in 2010.
22:20:11 <fizzie> "8-Bit Theater is a completed sprite comic created by Brian Clevinger, and published in 1,225 episodes from March 2, 2001 to June 1, 2010."
22:20:26 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Concluded_webcomics "The following 22 pages are in this category, out of 22 total."
22:20:38 <b_jonas> and what's the next project of its author?
22:20:48 <fizzie> Oh, I completely forgot A Miracle of Science, I read that.
22:21:52 <fizzie> I'll leave it to you to verify that all those 22 concluded ones have "properly" concluded.
22:21:58 <b_jonas> do any newspaper comics like Garfield or Calvin and Hobbes count as completed?
22:23:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: that category is almost certainly incomplete
22:23:16 <b_jonas> it's missing many that we've mentioned
22:23:50 <zzo38> I think newspaper comics probably count as news comics instead of web comics
22:24:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, they don't count as webcomics
22:24:30 <b_jonas> just wondering if they count as completed
22:26:15 <elliott> pretty sure garfield is, sadly, still running
22:26:18 <zzo38> I don't know; I don't read newspaper much
22:26:26 <zzo38> And not all newspaper include all of the comics anyways
22:29:12 <coppro> no newspaper includes all the comics
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23:22:08 <zzo38> oerjan: Didn't you show me before the Haskell code to figure out the best shift codes to use to encode a Z-machine string? I put it into a C code, and now I am making a document of it, too
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23:22:55 <oerjan> i remember we discussed that
23:23:33 <lambdabot> fizzie said 8h 43m 36s ago: Not all welding masks are created equal; in theory you can replace a stack of five shade #X masks with a single shade #Y mask, where Y=5*X-4. (It's a logarithmic scale with an offset.)
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