00:00:14 <Somelauw> still i get 10946 on the one above
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00:07:18 <Sgeo> Lymia: I think I have. There's at least one claiming that Irregular is speaking to the chains that disappeared
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00:07:51 <Sgeo> Lymia: are you an Evillious Chronicles fan, or speaking about translations in general?
00:08:02 <Lymia> Translations in general
00:08:30 <Sgeo> It may also be possible that I don't know which trasnslation is more accurate at a given portion
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00:08:59 <boily> translations are evil, especially when coming from France.
00:09:14 <boily> (I'm looking at you, you fungotted coworker.)
00:09:14 <fungot> boily: that's just an infinite loop
00:09:27 <boily> fungot: an infinite loop of linguistic suffering.
00:09:27 <fungot> boily: how do you read .texi files? ( e.g. in ruby you can do certain things
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00:16:32 <oerjan> les translations sont maliceux, especialment quand ils viennent de France
00:17:56 <oerjan> i think i may have got some of the words right.
00:19:20 <boily> les traductions sont malicieuses, spécialement quand elles viennent de France.
00:20:49 <oerjan> how can french _not_ put an e in front of sp
00:21:26 <boily> because parce que.
00:21:29 <Somelauw> because spanish already does that
00:22:08 <oerjan> i suppose it should ideally be êpécialement
00:23:39 <boily> êpécialement :D I love it.
00:24:46 <oerjan> actually i was remembering école, but it _doesn't_ seem to use a circumflex. oh well.
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00:25:14 <boily> no, not in that case.
00:32:40 <Sgeo> Lymia: "Boy's crimes are getting old." "You're far from me forever." "It left from this room"
00:33:03 <Sgeo> That's from a translation that, other than that, seems to be much more focused on sounding good in English than anything resembling accuracy
00:33:49 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNWAIJk2pEE
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00:34:08 <Sgeo> Also, "lu li la/ru ri ra" into "lapis lazuli"
00:34:38 <Sgeo> (lu li la is a significant song throughout the serieses)
00:34:53 <Sgeo> Also, there has to be a better word than serieses. serii?
00:35:17 <oerjan> technically series _is_ the plural.
00:35:45 <Sgeo> There's one series in the series that all the songs have lu li la.
00:36:40 <Lymia> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3cZbQaqYN4
00:36:44 <Lymia> One of the worst translations I've seen
00:37:11 <Sgeo> "It's not that your sins aren't tolerated"... utter opposite of the other translation which I trust more
00:38:03 <Sgeo> Lymia: in terms of sounding like bad English or in terms of inaccuracy or both? The Evillious stuff seems to be one or the other
00:42:32 <Lymia> Like, not understanding 何度 at one point
00:42:55 <Sgeo> I don't understand that either. But I don't attempt to translate Japanese.
00:43:00 <Lymia> And translating something closer to "How many times will I choke myself in tears, holding your dead body at the world's end" into "At the world's end, who will hold your dead body? I choke myself in tears"
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00:44:49 <Lymia> Or the line "指し鍋られた手が" to "Our shining relationship in hand" (wat) when it's "Your outstretched hand..." (just the subject of a sentence
00:45:25 <Sgeo> I wish I knew how to tell good translations from bad
00:46:25 <Sgeo> For re_birthday I've been trusting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpl1uMEWM_g but is the word at 0:50 really Clockwork? Doesn't... quite make sense, except I guess it is part of Clockwork Lullaby series
00:46:31 <Lymia> My Japanese isn't all that good, but... I'm pretty sure a lot of people doing translations are even worse.
00:47:48 <Lymia> I don't think so? I hear "a big hole"
00:48:06 <Lymia> But there's vocabulary I can't understand off the top of my head in the next line, so.
00:48:18 <Sgeo> Translation says it's a few seconds before the Clockwork line
00:49:31 <Lymia> Apparently there's "ぜんまい", but my dictionary says it's "spring"
00:49:45 <Sgeo> Lymia: the translation I don't trust as much says 'spring'
00:50:12 <Sgeo> So... approximately 0 actually trustworthy translations?
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00:50:52 <Lymia> Responding to lifthrasiir
00:51:08 <lifthrasiir> yeah, I was wondering if there is some idiomatic use of that word unrelated to the food
00:51:34 <Lymia> I don't actually know that kanji. ^.^
00:51:40 <Lymia> My vocabulary's pretty spotty as far as everyday words go.
00:51:56 <Sgeo> Lymia: at 3:51 and beyond, are the chains talking to him, or is he talking to the chains?
00:52:11 <Sgeo> The latter makes no sense to me given the context
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00:53:42 <Sgeo> Ah, good. So both main translations I know of are wrong *sigh*
00:54:16 <Sgeo> In different ways
00:55:09 <Lymia> The vocaloid wiki has links to good translations
00:55:47 <boily> that mysterious kanji, isn't that of the hotpot kind?
00:55:48 <Lymia> To good translators
00:55:50 <Lymia> I remember a page like that
00:56:21 <Lymia> Maybe it'd be best to trust lifthrasiir better than me a little. Iunno. :P
00:56:39 <boily> I knew it. delicious kanji are easy to remember ^^
00:57:03 <boily> Lymia: afaik, lifthrasiir lives closer to kanjiform countries than you.
00:57:22 <lifthrasiir> my Japanese knowledge is limited to the intuitive understanding of words, idioms and syntaxes close to my native tongue and nothing else :p
00:58:06 <boily> who knows. some linguists are bold enough to suggest a koreano-japonic link between the two language families.
00:58:06 <lifthrasiir> so to say, at least I do know whether the machine translation "seems" correct or not
00:58:22 <Lymia> boily, my parents are both Chinese
00:58:27 <Lymia> And I can speak Chinese, but.
00:58:30 <Sgeo> Apparently Magic Mouse is able to right-click.
00:58:37 <Sgeo> I was not aware of that until recently
00:58:38 <Lymia> I can understand written Japanese better than written Chinese.
00:58:55 <Lymia> Which is to say, I can understand some written Japanese, and even the most basic written Chinese is beyond me.
01:01:00 <Lymia> boily, I thought the general "accepted" consensus was that it isn't too unlikely that Korean and Japanese are in the same family?
01:02:18 <Bike> what, in altaic?
01:02:40 <Lymia> More specific than Altaic.
01:03:44 <Sgeo> AFAIK the Mac version of Docking Station sucks :(
01:04:16 <boily> Lymia: «“"accepted"”».
01:04:32 <Lymia> Maybe I'm confused.
01:05:38 <boily> don't worry, confusion reigns supreme around these here parts too.
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02:17:59 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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03:07:24 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~a~:^)~a~:^
03:07:47 <Lymia> fizzie, I broke it. :D
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03:08:51 <Lymia> ^ul (trololol)(~a:*~:^)~a:*~:^
03:09:00 <Lymia> ^ul (trololol)(~:*~:^)~:*~:^
03:09:14 <Lymia> ^ul (trololol)(~a~:^)~a~:^
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03:11:20 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~a:S~:^)~a:S~:^
03:11:21 <fungot> ()(())((()))(((())))((((()))))(((((())))))((((((()))))))(((((((())))))))((((((((()))))))))(((((((((())))))))))((((((((((()))))))))))(((((((((((())))))))))))((((((((((((()))))))))))))(((((((((((((())))))))))))))((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))(((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))(((((((((((((((((( ...too much output!
03:12:13 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~a:~:^)~a~:^
03:13:19 <Lymia> fungot breaker: ()(~a:~:^):^
03:13:19 <fungot> Lymia: and yes, i'm looking for
03:13:29 <Lymia> ^ul (You're not broken? D:)S
03:13:39 <Lymia> ^ul (You're not broken? D:)S
03:17:23 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa~:^):^
03:19:52 <Lymia> Cursed bot refuses to die!
03:20:35 <elliott> I think it limits the only two variables you can control (size and time).
03:21:12 <Lymia> Two minute execution times is near death though
03:21:21 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa~:^):^
03:22:49 <Bike> diggin the smilies
03:24:03 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aaaa~:^):^
03:26:29 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aaaaaa~:^):^
03:26:38 <Lymia> It's like constant optimizing BF Joust programs!
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03:54:41 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aa^aa^aa^aa^aa^aa^aa^aa^~:^):^
03:57:08 <Lymia> ^ul (... did I fail?)S
03:57:37 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aaa^aaa^aaa^aaa^aaa^aaa^aaa^aaa^~:^):^
04:01:16 <Lymia> ^ul (... did I fail?)S
04:01:40 <Lymia> Ping timeout is 5 minutes
04:01:56 <Lymia> ^ul ()(~aaaa^aaaa^aaaa^aaaa^aaaa^aaaa^aaaa^aaaa^~:^):^
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04:07:58 <elliott> I'm sure you'll get an award.
04:18:41 <Lymia> Bot killing is fun.
04:21:23 <lifthrasiir> I remember someone broke the Python sandbox in some bot (originally intended as a heavyweight calculator) by splicing function bytecodes
04:22:40 <Lymia> I think I did that in two seperate bots, both with basically the same approach
04:22:48 <Lymia> 0.__class__.__class__.mro()
04:22:54 <Lymia> Then going to town once I got that.
04:24:51 <Lymia> <Yuuna>!roll None.__class__.__mro__[-1].__subclasses__()[67]("test")()
04:24:51 <Lymia> *Marvin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
04:26:26 <lifthrasiir> http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/hftnp/ask_rpython_recovering_cleared_globals/
04:29:55 <elliott> trying to sandbox python just from inside python is kind of futile
04:30:30 <lifthrasiir> make a custom build of Python without file
04:30:45 <lifthrasiir> and sit back and watch standard libraries being broken
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05:25:27 <fizzie> (The ^ul DOS is a known issue.)
05:25:51 <Sgeo> "Realistically, anyone who is serious about PC gaming will be rebooting via Boot Camp, not trying to play in a virtualizer. But if you must play in your virtual OS, Parallels does a better job of it."
05:25:59 <Sgeo> Hmm, darn. I hate dual booting
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05:40:52 <fizzie> (The time limit is in terms of underload operations, and the stack limit is big enough for that to be an issue.)
05:42:39 <elliott> fizzie: you really need to run fungot in a loop. :p
05:42:39 <fungot> elliott: if i have sum an integer and a " return" that value. in fact, did.
05:43:34 <fizzie> Won't help until it learns how to autojoin channels, too.
05:50:44 <elliott> just set up a client script to tell it to join here every minute, clearly
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06:36:22 <fizzie> You stared it right off the channel.
06:40:56 <AndoDaan> These two categories: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Turing_tarpits & http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Turning_tarpits are about the same thing, right?
06:43:53 <AndoDaan> turning tarpits use wheel thingies?
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06:56:59 <AndoDaan> "This ancient comment happened due to confusing the term Turing tarpit and Turning tarpit, with the latter term originally created as a joke on a misspelling of the former. Both terms find use among esolang enthusiasts. --Ørjan (talk) 02:30, 27 June 2014 (UTC)"
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07:28:04 <mroman> unless there's some network issue :)
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07:28:45 <mroman> although it being written in Haskell it is probably vulnerable to the usual Haskell "Bugs"
07:29:54 <lambdabot> System.IO hGetLine :: Handle -> IO String
07:29:54 <lambdabot> GHC.IO.Handle hGetLine :: Handle -> IO String
07:29:54 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString hGetLine :: Handle -> IO ByteString
07:30:35 <mroman> hGetLine can probably die with "invalid byte sequence" I guess
07:31:03 <mroman> so if you manage to say something in this channel that will trigger an invalid byte squence due to the String de/encoding haskell does
07:31:06 <mroman> you might crash blsqbot
07:31:56 <AndoDaan> how do invalid byte sequences happen?
07:32:40 <mroman> AndoDaan: Haskell internally uses unicode for Strings
07:33:35 <mroman> which means that for example readFile "foo.txt" will decode foo.txt to the internal representation
07:34:15 <AndoDaan> and each unicode character(?) has to have a well defined length?
07:34:58 <mroman> I just know that if your system locale is for example isoxxx
07:35:10 <mroman> then haskell will decode the isoxxx to unicode
07:35:22 <mroman> and if you print something it will convert to isoxxx and then print
07:35:40 <mroman> but certain byte sequences are illegal in certain encodings
07:35:50 <mroman> in which case haskell errors out
07:37:02 <mroman> !blsq "hi "255L[.+wd)Q
07:39:15 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
07:39:17 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
07:39:38 <mroman> !blsq 255rz)rzL[rz)rzL[
07:39:47 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
07:40:37 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (cy) Invalid arguments!
07:40:44 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
07:40:57 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (cy) Invalid arguments!
07:41:10 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
07:41:25 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
07:41:36 <mroman> ah. "" is an empty list
07:41:39 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
07:41:53 <mroman> !blsq {1}cycycycycycycy1.+
07:42:39 <mroman> AndoDaan: Burlesque does some "type guessing" when it comes to blocks
07:43:02 <mroman> !blsq "hi there"{<-}m[
07:43:11 <mroman> !blsq "hi there"{<-9}m[
07:43:12 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
07:44:10 <mroman> technically if you map over a String
07:44:29 <mroman> Burlesque will try to guess whether you wan't a String as a result or a Block as a result
07:44:41 <mroman> !blsq "hi there"{<-9}m[
07:44:41 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
07:44:44 <mroman> !blsq "hi there"XX{<-9}m[
07:44:44 <blsqbot> {9 'H 9 'I 9 ' 9 'T 9 'H 9 'E 9 'R 9 'E}
07:45:00 <mroman> !blsq "hi there"{**}m[
07:45:00 <blsqbot> {104 105 32 116 104 101 114 101}
07:46:25 <mroman> -- Special case for empty block (BlsqBlock [] : xs) -> do putResult $ BlsqBlock [] : xs -- Special case for single char blocks (BlsqBlock [BlsqChar a] : xs) -> do putResult $ BlsqStr [a] : xs
07:46:47 <mroman> concat has some type hacking :)
07:47:15 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (l[)!
07:47:27 <mroman> !blsq {'a 'b 'c}{_+}r[
07:47:32 <Sgeo> Apparently middle-clicking on a Magic Mouse requires third-party software
07:49:02 <mroman> ^- that's the reason why \[ has that special treatment
07:49:34 <mroman> ^- back in the old days this would have resulted in 'a
07:49:42 <mroman> but with the hack in the new days it results in "a"
08:19:21 <mroman> http://codepad.org/S7AXoSSQ <- Am I the only one who hates this?
08:20:16 <Lymia> It's useful on an API boundery, where you need to do a lot of checks on a lot of functions
08:20:21 <Lymia> Like ensureListCapacity
08:23:36 <mroman> I kinda whish there was a System that would give you the Exceptions
08:23:41 <mroman> but also private boolean validate
08:24:03 <mroman> because if you need it boolean-ish
08:24:28 <mroman> you have to do some ugly stuff like boolean ok = false; try { validate(); ok = true; } catch{}
08:25:08 <mroman> however, boolean doesn't really say much about "what went wrong"
08:25:19 <mroman> whereas Exceptions can do that
08:26:37 <mroman> boolean valid = throws? validate();
08:26:56 <mroman> (throws? being some new keyword/operator)
08:28:37 <mroman> I guess I need more Java praticte
08:28:50 <mroman> I'm usually not a fan of using Exceptions for Control Flow
08:29:42 <mroman> mainly because you have to look at every function you call whether it throws an exception or not
08:29:52 <mroman> then you have to cross-reference that to the exceptions that are catched
08:30:19 <mroman> *every function the code calls
08:31:10 <mroman> some exceptions that are catched are actually never thrown
08:41:28 <b_jonas> mroman: well, I think c++14 and boost has some system functions with overloads that don't throw, but instead store the error in an output argument to give them
08:55:26 <mroman> (result, error) = validate();
08:55:47 <mroman> (which wouldn't throw the exception but store it in error)
08:55:59 <mroman> and result = validate(); would as usual throw the exception
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09:02:44 <mroman> How does Docker actually work?
09:02:56 <mroman> I don't think it's like a JVM/CLR?
09:07:47 <Deewiant> It used to be LXC by default, nowadays it's https://github.com/docker/libcontainer
09:09:56 <elliott> mroman: linux has support for separate namespaces for a variety of resources that together let you do containerisation of that sort
09:10:06 <elliott> it is not a good idea to rely on it for sandboxing or security.
09:11:08 <Deewiant> In short it's like chroot + stuff
09:19:57 <Sgeo> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Apple-new-imac-software-computer-design.jpg this still looks nothing like an iMac to me
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09:20:44 <Sgeo> It also looks like it's about to topple over
09:21:33 <mroman> It looks like it needs more anti-aliasing
09:22:15 <mroman> (the black lines are really edgy)
09:29:28 <fizzie> mroman: http://sprunge.us/egAT?java ...but probably don't actually to that.
09:30:37 <fizzie> The argument to resultize should probably be ExceptionHappy<? extends T> for more flexibility.
09:31:10 <fizzie> Tried also a fancier variant with the exception type as a type parameter, which almost worked, but you can't use a type parameter in a catch, understandably enough.
09:33:53 <fizzie> Would probably be doable and safe with a bit of reflection, because you can use a type parameter in a "throws" declaration, so it'd be statically type-checked to only throw (unchecked exceptions or) something matching X.
09:46:49 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/FJFP?java maybe? I won't guarantee the safety of it, and it's still probably not a good idea.
09:51:04 <mroman> too much fancy new Java-Features
09:53:34 <mroman> I guess you can check with isAssignableFrom stuff
09:55:52 <mroman> but that requires a dummy parameter to be passed
09:57:32 <mroman> Can you do runtime byte-code manipulation in Java?
09:57:56 <mroman> (on existing code. You can create new one obviously)
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10:14:32 <int-e> mroman: That seems unlikely; even the original JVM (before we had all those JIT compilers) had a static bytecode verifier which would have been broken by runtime byte-code manipulation; now with JITs, such a feature would become very expensive to support.
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11:18:35 <Taneb> I need to learn Scheme...
11:22:24 <fizzie> Start from the oft-quoted ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)).
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11:23:16 <fizzie> It's like the ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) except Schemier.
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11:27:25 <int-e> ... ``cc`cc -> ``c<`[]`cc>`cc -> `<`[]`cc><`[]`cc> -> `<`[]`cc>`cc -> ``cc`cc, where <...[]...> denotes a context with a hole at [].
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11:38:13 <Taneb> I also need to be less ill
11:39:15 <Taneb> Gone through two packets of tissues
11:39:37 <int-e> Try some proper food instead. *ducks*
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12:20:55 <oerjan> i see Lymia has been applying to become the first(?) human on fungot's ignore list
12:20:56 <fungot> oerjan: how am i supposed to fix the affected threads myself. i pity my cow-orkers tomorrow. like fnord activerecord, it would not be
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12:23:34 <fizzie> Though I have a two-strikes policy.
12:24:11 <fizzie> Mainly because I'm not entirely sure I wouldn't have done the same once.
12:24:23 <oerjan> i'll have to admit getting it to ping out like that was a little clever
12:25:17 <oerjan> i was already saying "give up already" in my mind when that happened
12:25:19 <fizzie> It's not entirely novel, but I didn't exactly advertise the feature on channel for obvious reasons.
12:42:48 <fizzie> "The loss of this information could critically compromise -- the ability to exploit foreign adversary cyberspace while protecting U.S. cyberspace."
12:42:51 <fizzie> I don't know why, but I have a hard time taking seriously statements that talk seriously about "cyberspace".
12:44:34 <b_jonas> Fungot, do you think the loss of that information could critically compromise the ability to exploit foreign adversary cyberspace while protecting U.S. cyberspace?
12:44:39 <oerjan> it's _so_ zeerust, no?
12:44:44 <b_jonas> fungot, do you think the loss of that information could critically compromise the ability to exploit foreign adversary cyberspace while protecting U.S. cyberspace?
12:44:44 <fungot> b_jonas: ls the list ( unquote 0) is evaluated.
12:45:01 <b_jonas> oh, so that's why it's an error.
12:46:41 <oerjan> fizzie: you're just not into the information superhighway
12:50:50 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
12:50:51 <fizzie> fungot: Please give a statement on how you are intending to organize the safeguarding of mission-critical core regions of the Finnish cyberspace landscape.
12:50:53 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, the fight against fraud and counterfeiting. the commission also has to be borne in mind. they will pay through increases in tax and social security are largely decisive in the national endeavours, not least in the first instance, development priorities that have genuine measurable objectives and we should not be treated as such, the concern of the european union
12:51:19 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, I see, so we need to pay more taxes? Got it.
12:51:20 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, at the moment i am unable to set it up. thus this totally different text is, moreover, obtaining a very concise study on the situation of the family. again, as it is applied correctly. unbundled access to local loop is by its very definition, the problem is not that only 25% are inspected, but rather of fnord.
12:52:17 <oerjan> hm i understand we are killing bots here today?
12:54:22 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
12:55:10 <oerjan> ok it's not _quite_ that brittle.
12:58:25 <b_jonas> fungot, do you think the loss of that information could critically compromise the ability to exploit foreign adversary cyberspace while protecting U.S. cyberspace?
12:58:25 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i would like to point out to mr poettering. secondly, that we still can and should commit itself to carrying out justice in the end.
13:02:08 <fizzie> !blsq "ACTION filters CTCPs"1L[+]1L[[+sh
13:02:08 <blsqbot> <CTCP>ACTION filters CTCPs<CTCP>
13:03:56 <fizzie> At least there was an extra space at the front.
13:04:48 <int-e> > text "\1That helps.\1"
13:04:54 <fizzie> !blsq {"I filter newlines" "or just truncate at them" "or what"}uN
13:05:10 <int-e> > text "That\nhelps too."
13:05:11 <fizzie> Oh, right, there was the whole "only print the first line" thing anyway.
13:07:14 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*).
13:07:30 <fizzie> !blsq 13L[{"Presumably this applies" "QUIT :just kidding" "to carriage return too?"}[[\[sh
13:07:30 -!- blsqbot has quit (Quit: just kidding).
13:07:38 <b_jonas> [ 'I filter newlines',LF,'or just truncate at them',(LF=10{a.),'or what?'
13:07:50 -!- j-bot has joined.
13:07:53 <fizzie> Well, oerjan did state it was national bot-killing day today.
13:07:53 <b_jonas> [ 'I filter newlines',LF,'or just truncate at them',(LF=10{a.),'or what?'
13:08:06 <oerjan> fizzie: ok THAT was unexpected.
13:08:35 <b_jonas> (hmm, does that only in private message)
13:08:39 <b_jonas> [ 'I filter newlines',LF,'or just truncate at them',(LF=10{a.),'or what?'
13:08:39 <j-bot> b_jonas: |value error: LF
13:08:39 <j-bot> b_jonas: | 'I filter newlines',LF,'or just truncate at them',( LF=10{a.),'or what?'
13:08:48 <b_jonas> [ 'I filter newlines',LF,'or just truncate at them',(LF=:10{a.),'or what?'
13:08:48 <j-bot> b_jonas: I filter newlines
13:08:48 <j-bot> b_jonas: or just truncate at them
13:08:52 <oerjan> > text.unlines$map show [[m*n|n<-[1..10]]|m<-[1..10]]
13:09:15 <b_jonas> since when does lambdabot do that?
13:09:20 <mroman> fizzie: What did you do?
13:09:23 <b_jonas> or does it do so only on #esoteric?
13:09:35 <lambdabot> "|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n|\n...
13:09:36 <oerjan> > text.unlines$map(words.map show)[[m*n|n<-[1..5]]|m<-[1..5]]
13:09:37 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’ with ‘GHC.Types.Char’
13:09:37 <lambdabot> Expected type: GHC.Base.String -> GHC.Base.String
13:09:37 <lambdabot> Actual type: GHC.Base.String -> [GHC.Base.String]Couldn't match type ‘[GHC...
13:09:37 <lambdabot> Expected type: a0 -> GHC.Types.Char
13:09:37 <lambdabot> Actual type: a0 -> GHC.Base.String
13:09:45 <fizzie> mroman: Asked it to output "Presumably this applies\rQUIT :just kidding\rto carriage return too?"
13:09:54 <fizzie> mroman: IRC accepts \r, \n or any combination of them as newline.
13:10:02 <int-e> b_jonas: I changed it from 1 line to up to 5 lines a while ago because > never produced any useful error messages otherwise.
13:10:16 <int-e> it does know how to count lines though :P
13:10:58 <int-e> b_jonas: you saw the :QUIT :P
13:10:59 <b_jonas> or try confusing it with NUL characters
13:11:10 <int-e> but yes, that is embarassing.
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13:12:53 <mroman> fizzie: It uses head (lines output)
13:14:11 <fizzie> \0 is technically also illegal to include in an IRC message; I don't know if servers use that as a message separator or do "end message but discard until newline" or "discard entire message" if you do it.
13:14:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: don't they just, like, quit you, just like when you send a too long line or too much text without waiting?
13:15:39 <fizzie> I guess that's an alternative too.
13:16:17 <fizzie> fungot uses a 0 internally as the message terminator (I believe), so I can't convince it to send one.
13:16:18 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, our committee of inquiry from 1984 to 1989. she really is most persistent, because we already know, that top-down authoritarian integration and fnord regulations are to be able to come to an end and that this has on employees, such as fishermen, particularly at a time when the eu is taking action against ireland for failure to respect human rights, mr president, i apologize to the commissioner for his repl
13:16:46 <HackEgo> 163) <elliott> So it's not exactly trivial. [Later about same thing] <elliott> It's a trivial C program :P \ 178) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly. \ 410) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: i
13:18:06 <oerjan> > text.unlines$map(unwords.map show)[[m*n|n<-[1..5]]|m<-[1..5]]
13:18:43 <oerjan> > text.unlines$map(unwords.map(printf("%3d"))[[m*n|n<-[1..5]]|m<-[1..5]]
13:18:44 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
13:18:57 <oerjan> > text.unlines$map(unwords.map(printf("%3d")))[[m*n|n<-[1..5]]|m<-[1..5]]
13:19:11 <int-e> > text$['a'..]>>=(:"123456789")
13:19:26 <int-e> > text$['a'..'z']>>=(:"123456789")
13:19:27 <lambdabot> a123456789b123456789c123456789d123456789e123456789f123456789g123456789h12345...
13:19:43 <oerjan> int-e: i believe text is strict, unlike var
13:19:47 <int-e> 79. good, that's what I thought.
13:20:25 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 2 3 4 5
13:20:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2 4 6 8 10
13:20:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: 3 6 9 12 15
13:20:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: 4 8 12 16 20
13:20:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: 5 10 15 20 25
13:20:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 2 3 4 5
13:20:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2 4 6 8 10
13:20:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: 3 6 9 12 15
13:20:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: 4 8 12 16 20
13:20:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: 5 10 15 20 25
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13:21:01 <fizzie> !blsq 13L[{"Presumably this applies" "QUIT :just kidding" "to carriage return too?"}[[\[sh
13:21:01 -!- blsqbot has quit (Client Quit).
13:21:57 <b_jonas> [ 'Presumably this applies',(13{a.),'QUIT :just kidding'
13:21:57 <j-bot> b_jonas: Presumably this applies
13:21:57 <j-bot> b_jonas: QUIT :just kidding
13:22:20 <b_jonas> mind you, you can make j-bot die if I want, just not this way
13:22:20 <mroman> why didn't it say just kidding :)
13:22:59 <oerjan> mroman: freenode censors quit messages the first minutes after you log on, to prevent their use for spamming several channels simultaneously
13:23:17 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't know it was an intentional feature.
13:23:26 <oerjan> well i assume that's the reason
13:25:34 <fizzie> ^bf ,[.>,]>++++++++++.<<[<]>[.>]>+++.<<[.<].>[.>]!test
13:25:38 <fizzie> Well, that's as expected.
13:25:56 <fizzie> \n and \r translated to '.', and 0 just truncates.
13:27:27 <b_jonas> [ 'I think J-bot strips all low control chars: ', 128{.a.
13:27:27 <j-bot> b_jonas: I think J-bot strips all low control chars:
13:27:28 <j-bot> b_jonas: ┌┬┐├┼┤└┴┘│─ !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
13:27:40 -!- blsqbot has joined.
13:27:58 <b_jonas> oh, it probably does, only J translates some of them on writing or something
13:28:11 <mroman> !blsq !blsq 13L[{"Presumably this applies" "QUIT :just kidding" "to carriage return too?"}[[\[sh
13:28:11 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
13:28:24 <fizzie> !blsq 13L[{"How about" "QUIT :x" "now?"}[[\[sh
13:28:39 <fizzie> !blsq 0L[{"How about" "QUIT :x" "them null bytes?"}[[\[sh
13:28:39 <blsqbot> How aboutQUIT :xthem null bytes?
13:28:45 <fizzie> Well, that seems fine.
13:29:40 <fizzie> !blsq {"newlines still" "separate lines" "right?"}uN
13:30:16 <b_jonas> !blsq {"newlines still" "separate lines" "PRIVMSG #esoteric :right?"}uN
13:30:31 <mroman> It does head (lines output)
13:30:41 <mroman> it's just that lines in haskell doesn't take "\r" as a line
13:30:50 <mroman> which is why that \r thing worked
13:31:57 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
13:32:41 <blsqbot> "\NUL\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\t\n\v\f\r\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\SYN\ET
13:32:43 <oerjan> mroman: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base-4.7.0.1/System-IO.html#g:25
13:33:47 <oerjan> although i suppose that doesn't help with lines on things constructed internally
13:34:33 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:35:56 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 6):
13:36:04 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 7):
13:36:08 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
13:36:35 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 7):
13:36:46 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 7):
13:36:53 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
13:37:58 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
13:38:01 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
13:38:15 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments!
13:43:18 <mroman> let me just create a challenge for that :D
13:46:04 <fizzie> Why can't the POCKET challenge just go ahead and close now when I'm still winning (a bit).
13:47:14 <mroman> how much time is left?
13:48:09 <b_jonas> I'm winning too, I have the shortest C++ entry for POCKET
13:49:25 <oerjan> <fizzie> It's like the ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) except Schemier. <-- i convinced myself the other day that in unlambda `d`cc and ``sii are exactly equivalent. although you need the d.
13:49:57 <oerjan> (i'm vaguely pondering a bit whether unlambda could be TC without s and k)
13:50:10 <oerjan> (or without just s, if that doesn't work.)
13:50:15 <int-e> fizzie: have a look at http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?join+lines/mskzzzz_1175444795&scm
13:51:23 <int-e> (But I don't know whether you'd have to repeat the :delete)
13:51:47 <fizzie> It'd probably still be shorter than my no-imports solution.
13:53:16 <int-e> OUCH. http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?123
13:53:56 <fizzie> Heh, 34. I don't know the Gauche libraries at all.
13:54:18 <oerjan> <int-e> ... ``cc`cc -> ``c<`[]`cc>`cc -> `<`[]`cc><`[]`cc> -> `<`[]`cc>`cc -> ``cc`cc, where <...[]...> denotes a context with a hole at []. <-- hey the standard notation it (`*`cc) (i know because i made it.)
13:54:49 <oerjan> (disclaimer: there might exist an older standard which i don't know about.)
13:55:08 <fizzie> I've seen (... [] ...) used in some Scheme-related material.
13:55:16 <oerjan> also, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subtle_cough
13:56:20 <oerjan> int-e: i think i shall refuse your attempts to drag us into old golf problems tdnh
13:56:44 <oerjan> (also i have no idea how to do that primes thing with just 3 extra chars.)
13:56:46 <int-e> oerjan: that was not my intention.
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13:57:11 <fizzie> I noticed the 1 2 3 thing when looking at old problems before. At least the expected number of attempts isn't *too* bad.
13:57:35 <int-e> oerjan: If it was, I'd point you at http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Text+Compression which may be interesting even though it's a post mortem ;)
13:57:40 <oerjan> i mean, i can just add ,n/=341 which is 7, and that's the best i have so far.
13:58:14 <oerjan> and you said you had 1 char shorter than that?
13:58:39 <int-e> oerjan: I'm using \square for holes in contexts, and [] is my usual ASCII approximation of that.
14:00:08 <int-e> but the * may actually appear in some unlambda resources that I've read years ago :)
14:00:21 <fizzie> int-e: Is there some convention if you see someone's solution in post-mortem and see an obvious improvement?
14:00:26 <fizzie> Like yourname(theirname) or something.
14:01:04 <int-e> fizzie: I don't know.
14:01:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: probably that, yes
14:01:23 <oerjan> well as i found out, you can have the thing in parentheses pretty long
14:02:00 <b_jonas> there should be a public comment field, not only a name fiedl
14:03:59 <int-e> fizzie: tbh I was just looking for general ideas of what golfed scheme programs look like; I didn't expect to find a template for the POCKET thing.
14:04:05 <fizzie> int-e: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?join+lines/fizzie%28mskzzzz%29_1413468198&scm -- the :delete key is just a boolean flag, any true value does.
14:04:48 <int-e> oh, of course, a keyword argument.
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14:07:20 <fizzie> I'm more content with the Befunge and Z80 pockets anyway, though still afraid of being one-upped. Not that it should matter.
14:07:25 <fizzie> Time to go home, I think. ->
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15:15:05 <mroman> JS-Engine Developers are working hard to deal as good as possible with JS's lack of static typing :)
15:20:41 <fizzie> I wrote a real quick Burlesque mail merge before remembering it'll just "main_golf: <stdin>: hGetContents: invalid argument (invalid byte sequence)" out, of course.
15:20:49 <fizzie> (Oh well, it wasn't very good either.)
15:21:43 <b_jonas> maybe make mroman fix that in the implementation?
15:22:21 <mroman> I don't know what shinh uses as a locale?
15:22:45 <fizzie> It works fine locally, under an UTF-8 locale.
15:22:47 <mroman> I could use hSetEncoding UTF8 ore something
15:22:57 <lambdabot> System.IO hSetEncoding :: Handle -> TextEncoding -> IO ()
15:22:57 <lambdabot> GHC.IO.Handle hSetEncoding :: Handle -> TextEncoding -> IO ()
15:23:11 <b_jonas> mroman: what? no, set iso-8859-1 encoding instead
15:23:15 <b_jonas> so it can read any binary data
15:23:32 <b_jonas> and maybe add a setlocale builtin :-)
15:23:56 <mroman> for that I would have to first switch to an IO Monad ;)
15:24:17 <mroman> although changing to StateT IO ... shouldn't be too hard
15:24:26 <b_jonas> make it just work with byte strings instead of character strings
15:24:46 <fizzie> Anything that coincides with ASCII would presumably be reasonable in the sense that it wouldn't affect any existing program.
15:25:54 <mroman> -- | An encoding in which Unicode code points are translated to bytes
15:25:54 <mroman> -- by taking the code point modulo 256. When decoding, bytes are
15:25:55 <mroman> -- translated directly into the equivalent code point.
15:28:01 <mroman> my locale is en_US.utf8
15:30:32 <mroman> maybe socket uses char8 or something
15:31:17 <oerjan> mroman: that would explain why it _doesn't_ crash when we send it non-utf8
15:31:38 <oerjan> which is, presumably, a good thing.
15:33:59 <mroman> enc <- if binary then return Nothing else fmap Just getLocaleEncoding
15:34:48 <mroman> h <- fdToHandle' (fromIntegral fd) (Just GHC.IO.Device.Stream) True (show s) mode True{-bin-}
15:34:59 <mroman> socketToHandle passes binary=True
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15:37:14 <mroman> oerjan: I had a discussion about that some months ago with somebody in #haskell
15:37:40 <mroman> There's Network.ByteString though
15:38:19 <blsqbot> {230 151 165 230 156 172 232 170 158}
15:38:26 <blsqbot> {"e6" "97" "a5" "e6" "9c" "ac" "e8" "aa" "9e"}
15:39:42 <oerjan> presumably binary is equivalent to char8 + no eol conversion
15:40:39 <oerjan> yep, "This has the same effect as calling hSetEncoding with char8, together with hSetNewlineMode with noNewlineTranslation."
15:49:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unnecessary]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40620&oldid=36295 * InputUsername * (+126) Added a link to a Ruby interpreter
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17:23:36 <int-e> ho [I will later pretend this was a typo]
17:24:57 <TieSoul> I seem to be afflicted by some kind of curse where I write a Funge-98 interpreter for every programming language I like.
17:37:45 <tromp> how do you like the language BLC ?
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17:42:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40621&oldid=40464 * InputUsername * (+329) Linked to some language implementations
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17:47:05 <TieSoul> Hey, I know InputUsername IRL.
17:47:15 <TieSoul> funny to see him here of all places.
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18:18:23 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname mroman(use query)
18:19:40 <Melvar> @ask int-e < int-e> oerjan: I'm using \square for holes in contexts, and [] is my usual ASCII approximation of that. – Why ascii and not □ ?
18:30:28 <Sgeo> What does (use query) mean? That someone should message em?
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18:38:51 <mroman> fuck javas scope rules in cases
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18:57:00 <mroman> coppro: cases share the same scope
18:57:23 <coppro> mroman: use a compound statement
18:57:31 <coppro> case foo: { int a; } case bar: { int a; }
18:57:56 <mroman> on the other hand C# has some fucked up scoping rules as well
18:58:14 <mroman> out of C,C#,Java C has the most intuitive scoping rules
18:59:52 <mroman> Are there editors for 2D languages
19:00:14 <mroman> I don't like that chars are higher than wider
19:01:19 <elliott> oh, that wasn't a general statement
19:01:43 <mroman> also I'm tired of having to type 10 spaces
19:01:52 <mroman> I'd be cooler if I had some editor with a grid
19:02:23 <mroman> No, I might enjoy a 2D programming language editor :)
19:02:24 <b_jonas> mroman: find a crossword editor. that has both grid and square cells.
19:02:48 <elliott> oh, wow, crossword esolang
19:03:52 <mroman> ideally you can type in directions
19:04:02 <mroman> which means the editor will recognize that you typed a v
19:04:13 <mroman> and will switch to "insert downards vertically"
19:06:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40622&oldid=40578 * 70.114.225.120 * (+11) /* J */
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19:34:23 <elliott> mroman: emacs artist-mode may do some things you want
19:36:06 <mroman> maybe I'll write my own editor :)
19:36:45 <mroman> I guess since it can do socket you can draw stuff with X11?
19:37:28 <myname> we tried building an editor for rail on a university software project
19:38:36 <myname> https://github.com/SWP-Ubau-SoSe2014-Haskell/SWPSoSe14
19:40:04 <fizzie> I believe there are some Befunge IDEs.
19:40:21 <fizzie> I used to write Befunge-93 with ZBefunge.
19:40:38 <fizzie> http://flourish.org/zbefunge/
19:41:55 <fizzie> Not sure if there's that much things for 2D languages in general, though some Emacs tricks indeed.
19:42:41 <fizzie> There's at least one thing that does the natural cardinal-direction movement, so that when you type it keeps continuing to the direction of your last cursor-movement command.
19:45:02 <fizzie> Possibly not with ><^v recognition, though.
19:53:22 <Melvar> Is there a befunge variant that uses ←↑↓→ ?
19:54:13 <^v> hard because its unicode
19:54:20 <^v> would be easier just to gsub
19:54:42 <Melvar> Not to solve the current problem, just generally curious.
19:56:32 <fizzie> All I can think of offhand are ASCII, but you could sample http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Two-dimensional_languages
19:58:40 <fizzie> Of course "truu ASCII" has ↑ in place of ^.
19:58:53 <fizzie> ^ is just some sort of modern nonsense.
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20:00:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, true ascii has a left arrow at _ and a broken bar at | and a yen sign at `
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20:01:23 <b_jonas> or wait, is the yen sign at \
20:03:07 <MDude> But it's right here ?
20:03:38 <b_jonas> and true ascii has É no either [ or # depending on who you ask :-)
20:04:02 <^v> :o my uptime is 10 days
20:08:18 <MDude> It's not true ascii if it wasn't used by old timey railroad operators.
20:08:57 <MDude> Or telegraph guys.
20:09:27 <b_jonas> MDude: no way. those use a 5-bit character set with shifts between two states,
20:09:46 <b_jonas> and a keyboard that physically doesn't allow pressing keys that would not make sense in the current shift state
20:09:55 <mroman> I've read about byte = 5bit computers
20:10:03 <b_jonas> so that you don't forget to press the shift keys
20:10:12 <b_jonas> that's got nothing to do with ascii
20:10:27 <MDude> Then what's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ASCII_Code_Chart-Quick_ref_card.png
20:10:37 <b_jonas> and of course as it can encode only very few characters, it has lots of variant character sets
20:11:53 <mroman> Nixdorf had 12bit bytes
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20:31:12 <fizzie> This discussion is taking place on a network where [\] are uppercase {|}, thanks to 7-bit ISO/IEC 646 national variants.
20:32:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: yep, with nickserv and chanserv accounts migrated from back then they weren't considered case variants, and I have no idea how they could resolve the conflicts
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20:33:45 <fizzie> The same Finnish encoding that gifted us those also had ¤ in place of $. Otherwise I think it matched ASCII.
20:34:13 <b_jonas> it's one of the iso-646 encodings. those were big back in ye olden days.
20:36:37 <fizzie> In BBS systems you also quite often got ö -> v, ä -> d (hence all the jokes about "ddkkvset") because that's what you get when you strip the high bit out of Latin-1.
20:37:20 <fizzie> "Onneksi ddkkvset eivdt endd ole ongelma."
20:38:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: I still see some errors in mails where characters are somehow taken modulo 256, so you get Q instead of ő.
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20:42:14 <b_jonas> that of course results in mostly readable mails. there are also mails where every non-ascii character is badly mangled.
20:42:29 <b_jonas> sometimes even irrecoverably, like when every non-ascii character is replaced by a question mark or something.
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21:47:01 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
21:47:53 <Taneb> Figured it's been a while since that's been used
21:48:25 <Bike> `run cat $(which slist)
21:50:40 <elliott> Sgeo: looks like apple are trying to tempt you with price cuts
21:51:03 <elliott> oh, not a price cut, just a worse model.
21:51:23 <Taneb> elliott, looks like Hussie is trying to tempt you with Homestuck updates that don't advance the plot in any meaningful way
21:52:45 <Bike> do you see elliott on the slist? i don't. therefore, not a reader.
21:53:55 <shachaf> Bike: i don't see anybody on the slist hth
21:54:07 <Bike> did you see etc
21:54:12 <Bike> TENSE MOTHERFUCKER
21:54:35 <shachaf> Bike: did you read that long thread from 200x with john baez about pseudoforms
21:57:51 <Sgeo> Taneb: because the site is down?
21:58:01 <Sgeo> Is there known to have been an update? oh, there is, woah
21:58:09 <Taneb> Sgeo, mirror http://i.imgur.com/UoNYckC.gif
21:58:23 <Bike> truly incredible
21:59:22 <Sgeo> elliott: well, for just toying around with OSX, a 'worse' model would be fine
22:00:50 <elliott> Sgeo: well, double the storage, memory and a much better processor and GPU is unquestionably worth $200
22:00:55 <Sgeo> Now, if only everything wasn't so expensive in terms of space
22:01:01 <elliott> I don't get the economics behind them adding a much-shittier $200 cheaper iMac a while ago either.
22:02:02 <Sgeo> elliott: which thing are you referrig to precisely/
22:02:28 <elliott> (even worse for the iMac: they expect you to believe that 1.4ghz dual-core i5 -> 2.7ghz quad core i7, double the storage, and intel hd graphics -> iris pro + geforce 750M isn't worth $200 on a purchase that is >$1k regardless)
22:04:06 <Sgeo> elliott: what's the new thing that's $200 cheaper for a lot less value?
22:04:20 <elliott> they released a $499 mac mini.
22:04:38 <Sgeo> If I only had room for a monitor+keyboard+mouse
22:05:36 <Sgeo> If I could somehow use my current laptop for that, that would be fun
22:06:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jasp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40623&oldid=40618 * Oerjan * (-92) formatting
22:08:41 <Sgeo> Is my understanding of Apple's iOS app policies correct, that if the web were brand new today, they would not allow web browsers in the App store?
22:09:10 <elliott> what size is your apartment in m^2 exactly
22:10:25 <Sgeo> Not really sure offhand
22:10:49 <Bike> negative three
22:11:02 <HackEgo> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
22:11:35 <shachaf> Bike: should've used a pseudoform
22:11:52 <Bike> http://lamington.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/div-grad-curl-and-all-this maybe this will make more sense to you than to me
22:12:08 <oerjan> elliott: it's Em^2 c hth
22:12:35 <shachaf> Bike: did you see http://mathoverflow.net/a/10586
22:12:57 <Bike> i get the div grad curl is 3d though
22:13:12 <Bike> that is, in fact, how i got sucked into this, wanting to know how magnetism (curl) would work in higher d's :(
22:13:59 <Bike> oh god damn it Gravitation again too
22:14:10 <Bike> have you seen that book it is ridiculous
22:14:32 <shachaf> imo physicists are ridiculous??
22:14:44 <Bike> well they are yeah
22:14:50 <Bike> it makes elementary entomology errors. smh.
22:15:20 <Bike> seriously though it's just a big featureless brick of physics http://40.media.tumblr.com/4aecd2760c12bcca6fe8e888bcd707e1/tumblr_nblz4unjOj1r7tprao1_1280.jpg
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22:15:51 <shachaf> oh you meant seen in a literal sense
22:16:18 <Slereah_> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/MATH.jpg
22:16:23 <Bike> the content is also ridiculous, just to be clear
22:16:39 <Bike> it reads kind of like they were stoned
22:16:45 <Slereah_> It is just not really well organized
22:16:49 <Bike> what if, like, apples... were straight lines
22:16:57 <Bike> i mean, good book, i'm never going to understand it is all
22:17:13 <Bike> also it uses einstein summation notation. imo why.
22:17:46 <Slereah_> It has Einstein right in the name!
22:18:12 <Bike> mainly i just don't get the emphasis on tensors being blocks of numbers
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22:18:36 <Bike> like they write out efe as http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/f/5/3f50fd206f2fe543a6a8a3e687cf74c3.png
22:18:49 <Bike> what is the point of the indices? can't they just be multilinear operators in peace
22:19:02 <Slereah_> Well yeah but in that case, you have to write like
22:19:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OBJEKTER]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40624 * InputUsername * (+365) Created a stub page for OBJEKTER. Will be updated tomorrow, when I have more time.
22:19:59 <Slereah_> Also most GR is done in a coordinate system
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22:20:38 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
22:20:41 <Slereah_> [00:18:58] <Slereah_> Well yeah but in that case, you have to write like
22:20:41 <Slereah_> [00:19:17] <Slereah_> R in T*M (x) T*M
22:20:41 <Slereah_> [00:19:55] <Slereah_> Also most GR is done in a coordinate system
22:20:41 <Slereah_> [00:20:10] <Slereah_> It is useful for observables
22:20:42 <Bike> i dunno, i ain't a physicist, but when the first part of gravitation is like "so, the point of this is that coordinate systems are just choices we make, they're not really inherent... anyway, here's stress-energy in coordinates" ok bye oh hello
22:21:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OBJEKTER]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40625&oldid=40624 * InputUsername * (+14) Fixed link.
22:21:26 <Slereah_> Well it is still useful because you can do any coordinate transform easily
22:21:46 <Bike> oh, gravitation does the milk crates too, huh. burke does that and i don't really get it at all
22:22:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OBJEKTER]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40626&oldid=40625 * InputUsername * (-18) Removed link. Sorry for this.
22:22:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40627&oldid=40621 * InputUsername * (+110) Added OBJEKTER.
22:22:59 <Slereah_> if you complain about the Einstein equation written as tensor components
22:23:21 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newman%E2%80%93Penrose_formalism
22:23:43 <Bike> shachaf: a kind of picture they use to illustrate, uh... i think 2-forms.
22:24:10 <Slereah_> Einstein equation doesn't look so bad now does it
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22:24:30 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newman%E2%80%93Penrose_formalism#NP_field_equations
22:24:32 <Bike> "In NP formalism, instead of using index notations as in orthogonal tetrads, each Ricci rotation coefficient \gamma_{ijk} in the null tetrad is assigned a lower-case Greek letter, which constitute the 12 complex spin coefficients" so glad i'm not in physics. so glad
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22:25:11 <Slereah_> Although EFE in tetrad notation is quite nice and compact, actually
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22:27:00 <Slereah_> The action is just S = 1/4 integral tr[F* ^ F]
22:27:42 <Bike> blargh i don't even know what gauge theories are
22:27:49 <Bike> i should stick to easy things like dissecting small animals
22:28:29 <shachaf> can you do it using just a compass and a straightedge
22:28:41 <Slereah_> A compass does have a pretty sharp point
22:28:46 <Bike> if the straightedge is sharp enough yeah
22:28:53 <Bike> can i use pins to mark points? if so that's pretty much what you use
22:29:59 <Bike> oh, so flatworms, huh. kind of wriggly
22:30:41 <Bike> biology has some pretty weird manifolds http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41F10pcXYEL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
22:31:04 <Bike> that image is kind of shitty but i dno't see any high res ones and if i wanted to take my own photo i'd have to, like, get out of my seat.
22:31:17 <shachaf> what's with the obsession everyone seems to have with real numbers anyway
22:31:54 <shachaf> if i don't like the reals why would i like manifolds
22:32:23 <Slereah_> Not all manifolds are real number based
22:32:30 <Slereah_> Because the empty set is a manifold.
22:32:42 <Slereah_> Because it's a manifold for every dimension
22:33:06 <Bike> i don't believe in manifolds i can't punch
22:33:06 <shachaf> the implications are manifold
22:33:36 <Slereah_> Bike : Beware, some are dangerous
22:33:51 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_Ness_monster_surface
22:33:58 <shachaf> all i want is to understand derivatives
22:34:02 <shachaf> why do real numbers have to get involved
22:34:17 <Slereah_> Natural numbers have no derivatives
22:35:10 <Bike> you could use the arithmetic derivative :emoticon:
22:35:40 <Slereah_> There's also a boolean derivative
22:35:46 <Bike> or i guess like... difference equations. bleh.
22:35:54 <shachaf> or species or whatever you want
22:35:57 <Bike> i suppose that is subtraction
22:36:30 <shachaf> discrete derivatives are p. nifty imo
22:37:30 <Bike> wikipedia's example of a type derivative is nitfy
22:38:08 <Bike> i should probably figure out why this looks exactly like analytic combinatorics but i'm too busy castrating squirrels
22:38:47 <Bike> "the type T of binary trees containing values of type A can be represented as the algebra generated by the transformation 1+A×T²→T[..] In the tree example, the derivative is a type that describes the information needed, given a particular subtree, to construct its parent tree[..] This type can be represented as 2×A×T"
22:39:33 <Taneb> I've gained reputation at uni as "the Haskell guy" in my year and now the pure CS course uses Haskell for the compilers module people keep asking me for help
22:39:37 <Taneb> I don't even do that module
22:40:03 <shachaf> everything makes all sorts of intuitive sense
22:41:02 <Bike> it also says something about zippers
22:41:15 <Bike> with binary trees again. everybody loves x²+1.
22:41:52 <oerjan> Taneb: just write a supercompilation lens hth
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22:42:32 <Taneb> Someone had a weird syntax error that I couldn't spot...
22:43:12 <oerjan> and you saw the error message?
22:43:34 <Taneb> Syntax error at = on line 8 column 30 or something
22:43:38 <oerjan> did they mix spaces and tabs that's always fun on stackoverflow
22:43:47 <Taneb> Yes, but I think we got rid of them
22:43:57 <oerjan> (because stackoverflow uses 4 spaces to display tabs)
22:45:29 * oerjan seems to have slipped off stackoverflow (although i still have the tab open) with all the golfing and stuff
22:46:45 <oerjan> so theoretically you can get people who have their editor set to tabstop=4 and no one can see anything wrong with their code.
22:47:04 <oerjan> or some code is actually correct despite looking broken. and all combinations.
22:48:09 <oerjan> syntax error at =, hm well that can mean a lot of things, but probably something that wasn't closed properly.
22:48:44 <oerjan> assuming there should really be a = at all.
22:49:26 <oerjan> > let f (Just test = 5 in f (Just "hi")
22:49:27 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:18: parse error on input ‘=’
22:50:09 <oerjan> hm Syntax error? where they using Hugs or something? although it's supposed to have easier error messages.
22:50:26 <Taneb> I can't remember the exact message
22:52:07 <Bike> it may be too late to debug this............................
22:52:21 <oerjan> HOW CAN YOU SAY SUCH A THING
22:53:41 <oerjan> hm good error messages should be able to tell if you are missing closing brackets and stuff
22:54:11 <Sgeo> Is the OS X store as curated as the iOS store? I guess it doesn't matter so much, since Apple doesn't try to block installs from elsewhere
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23:17:06 <elliott> the mac app store is kind of bad.
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