00:00:44 Is chicken fởn? 00:01:01 ^bool 00:01:01 Yes. 00:01:14 I beg to differ. 00:02:11 wouldn't it be phởn? :3 00:02:32 chicken is chicken. it is everything. to deny it is to distance oneself from the true path. without denial, one can't find the Chicken. 00:02:50 `? phở 00:02:51 Phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam. 00:03:11 Hmm, having a menu bar at the top means tabbed browsers don't have infinitely high tabs 00:03:16 I think I would hate that 00:03:19 digital pimp, hard at work 00:04:07 HackEgo : 100 points to anyone who can pronounce that :D 00:04:43 Sgeo: afaik only chrome does 00:04:45 I tried to pronounce a few vietnamese words. I abysmally can't. 00:04:45 Sgeo: what!! that's barely an update 00:04:48 -!- Sorella has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:04:48 fo lay mut man... 00:04:49 and even then I think it doesn't on linux 00:04:57 other browsers have stuff closer to the top 00:04:59 that's 15 points 00:05:29 elliott: Firefox does on Windows these days 00:05:38 They're trying to copy the Chrome chrome it seems 00:05:49 does the click target actually reach the very top pixel of the screen? 00:05:59 anyway really you have to manoeuvre horizontally to pick a tab anyway... 00:06:20 madbr: btw, do you happen to be a vietnamese soup connoisseur? 00:06:25 elliott: seems so (re click target reaching top of screen) 00:06:54 I wonder how many people on Mac realize closing window doesn't close application 00:07:09 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 00:07:16 I know we've had product people at the company get confused by that, thinking they restarted the browser when they didn't 00:08:15 boily : well, I like scarfing it down yes :D 00:08:43 Sgeo: it's rather obvious when the app isn't pinned to the dock 00:09:07 also, some (even apple) apps do close when you close the window, and it's not always obvious why one would follow one behaviour :/ 00:09:25 I think the idea is meant to be that it doesn't matter whether the application has any windows open or not 00:09:31 the problem being that this is a false statement 00:09:40 oerjan: Did you see the paper I linked to above? 00:09:48 Windows 8 Metro has exactly the same issue 00:10:28 ais523: OS X explicitly has a concept of "open but with no windows", unlike Windows 00:10:31 boily : now you're making me want it x_x 00:10:34 it's just weakened it recently 00:10:40 shachaf: i don't recall. 00:10:52 elliott: Windows has a state of "open but with no windows" but it's a pain to interact with 00:10:55 System Preferences and the App Store and Contacts and Notes close when you close their sole window. Maps and Reminders don't. 00:10:58 madbr: what are your approximate coördinates? do you live in a soup-friendly city? 00:11:03 you can see the process in task manager, but it's hard to do anything to it, other than kill it 00:11:13 neither does iBooks, despite it being basically like the App Store except for ebooks 00:11:17 boily: Is that the new question? 00:11:18 oh, wait, no, iBooks does 00:11:27 oerjan: Do you know about the X -o F(X) notion of derivative? 00:11:33 err... iBooks stays open when you close its window, until you focus another app 00:11:36 montreal 00:11:46 I have multiple choices for pho :D 00:12:15 shachaf: I just tried to subtly slide it into the conversation :P 00:12:35 shachaf: no, and i don't think my brain wants to know. 00:12:35 madbr: attends un peu, toi. viens pas me dire que tu restes à Montréal aussi. 00:12:47 ben oui 00:12:56 j'ai comme une impression de déjà vu... 00:13:37 boily: did you ever work out the answer to the question you were asking the questions for? 00:14:01 elliott: >_>'... <_<... I... kinda stumbled upon the maths. 00:14:10 wasn't there an online thing to calculate it 00:14:12 oerjan: but you're my only hope for tangent spaces 00:14:25 elliott: there's an online thing for that? 00:14:33 what was it you were calculating again? 00:14:39 boily : je sais pas si on se connait 00:14:47 elliott: the center of mass of the chännel. 00:15:25 madbr: ça se peut. la dernière fois qu'un autre montréalais s'est enfargé dans le channel ça s'est adonné que c'était un ami à mon frère. 00:15:27 http://calculator.tutorvista.com/center-of-mass-calculator.html guess this doesn't really help 00:15:32 shachaf: lasciate ogni speranza 00:15:36 whatever, just pay a grad student to do it 00:15:41 or don't pay them 00:15:49 I know just the right grad student for the task! 00:15:55 (paying grads? since when?) 00:16:07 I seem to remember we plotted points on a globe with some tool based on our geographic coordinates or something at some point. 00:18:10 boily: montreal is the new hexham 00:18:42 oerjan: yup, and it's disturbing. 00:20:18 boily : hmm, faudrait voir si on a pas un millieu en common d'abord 00:21:51 oerjan: At least X -o F(X) makes sense, right? 00:21:59 It takes an X and puts it into a structure somewhere. 00:22:11 madbr: quel genre de milieu? 00:22:29 moi j'ai genre la demoscene de montreal (et les trucs connexes comme la chiptune), le foulab, la bédé québécoise, euhh... 00:22:53 ooooh, y'a une scene à mourial? ah bin! 00:23:01 une année particulière des gens en génie logiciel à l'université laval 00:23:06 gameloft 00:23:15 j'ai fait mon bac en génie informatique à laval. 00:23:58 oerjan: disturbing I said? more like very disquieting, terrifying, canadianing. 00:24:14 -!- GeekDude has joined. 00:24:36 ok this does it, i'll put the whole log through GT... 00:24:37 connais-tu joel bouchard lamontagne? 00:24:41 I'm trying to implement the mandelbrot set without using any floats. I happen to be very bad at this, apparently 00:24:50 madbr: eh, non. 00:25:11 bon, probablement pas de connection d'abord 00:25:27 GeekDude : trying to make it run on an ARM? 00:25:28 GeekDude: how can you mandel without floats? isn't it the point of having enough precision to plot precise colours? 00:25:34 lol 00:25:48 Trying to implement it in piet, actually, with an ascii output 00:25:55 oh :3 00:26:11 boily: The point is that fractals are cool 00:26:31 madbr: je suis dans la scène plus boardgaming, et le fameux Douteux du lundi soir au Broue. 00:27:04 GeekDude: indeed. I remember having lost quite some time doing a haskell program to output a postscript file with L-systems. 00:27:22 (also animating slices of strange attractors. that one was quite nice!) 00:27:44 mmmm 00:27:49 ok je vais très occasionellement au douteux :3 00:28:01 en fait faudrait que j'y aille plus souvent 00:29:14 GeekDude: do you know where I could be posting an avi file on the intarwebs and have it play? 00:29:25 ... youtube? 00:29:39 genre y aller avec mon cousin (qui habite pas loin non plus) 00:29:53 Other than that, dunno 00:30:13 avis could contain anything 00:30:43 GeekDude: if you ever heard a sudden facepalm just about now, it wasn't me. probably even only an auditory illusion. 00:31:16 That sound was me reading about snapchat's recent 00:31:20 "leak" 00:31:47 (meanwhile, 13 minutes remaining while it uploads to dropbox...) 00:34:50 lol 00:34:57 i'm not sure whether i find your original french or google's attempted translation most readable. also it does strange things to the parts in english... 00:36:50 hm? 00:38:01 oerjan: parts in English? 00:39:09 ok this does it, i'll put the whole log through GT... 00:40:06 ah. aaaaah. heh ^^ 00:40:07 aha! no floats http://i.imgur.com/jKexwd3.png 00:40:24 shiny! 00:40:54 The code for it https://db.tt/Z7smLgTF 00:41:05 := is assignment 00:41:12 // is floor divide 00:41:26 50 is the scale 00:46:20 oerjan: GT is weird. why is it capitalizing whole random words? 00:46:52 you accidentally set the target language to german hth 00:46:54 GeekDude: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/video.avi 00:47:58 woo, vlc web 00:48:13 IT's not playing. Either it needs to download more or its bork 00:48:19 not sure 00:49:55 it's hideoulsy uncompressed. 00:49:59 this is one huge video 00:50:31 nice, vlc can't play it 00:50:46 does it work in, like, mplaye 00:50:47 r 00:50:54 it works in mplayer. 00:51:03 why did you upload it in this format. just curious. 00:52:29 I can't remember. the file is from... 00:52:44 July 17, 2011. 00:53:27 congrats, it won't even play in mpv 00:53:32 (and it probably is even older, as it sounds like it's been copied over to my desktop from my university laptop.) 00:53:37 :D 00:53:50 what's it a video of? 00:54:04 of a bunch of dejong attractors. 00:54:16 http://paulbourke.net/fractals/peterdejong/ 00:55:08 Those are gorgeous 00:56:02 compiling mplayer so I can play some random uncompressed video... 00:56:49 GeekDude: DLA is one of my favourite methods to generate fractals. 'tis sad it's so slow... 01:03:00 Peeerfect http://i.imgur.com/qOKek1o.png 01:03:09 Now I just have to paint it 01:03:16 autohotkey??? 01:03:19 uhh 01:03:20 yeah 01:03:28 I'm prototyping in autohotkey 01:04:00 I just have to convert to a piet program now 01:04:18 I see a lot of ROLLing in my future 01:04:45 I could just cheat and use the C-like compiler 01:04:51 but that'd be no fun 01:05:02 and against the grain of the esoteric spirit. 01:05:21 boily: that was so not worth it 01:05:34 I wrote my own piet interpreter and editor (This is the editor) http://i.imgur.com/W5pTmdk.png 01:06:02 GeekDude: I'm disappointed, I was hoping that'd be the source code rather than a screenshot 01:06:07 oh 01:06:14 http://github.com/G33kDude/Piet 01:06:23 I'm in the list of piet third party resources :) 01:06:30 but now it turns out it isn't even written in piet :-( 01:06:46 lol 01:06:47 although, AutoHotKey, seriously? 01:06:51 Lowercase k 01:06:58 AutoHotkey 01:07:04 And yeah, why not! 01:07:07 elliott: so what. it's the compiling that counts, or something like that. 01:07:23 (unless you are referring to my very stupid and bad pun, then it's always worth it.) 01:08:21 I don't think I caught the pun 01:08:33 grain. spirit. 01:08:41 * boily shows himself away. 01:09:06 Uhh... You're a grain spirit? 01:09:21 http://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/comments/2j5929/10132014_challenge_184_easy_smart_stack_list/cl8qe5g 01:09:23 me too 01:09:56 reasons not to use autohotkey: people will pester you constantly about programming in autohotkey, because seriously 01:10:05 lol 01:10:16 elliott: but here, "seriously?" is a complement 01:10:24 https://github.com/G33kDude/MyRC/blob/master/Socket.ahk oh good god 01:10:42 That was written by an especially crazy german fellow 01:10:45 he does great work 01:10:46 oh, at least you didn't write that 01:10:48 is "oh good god" a compliment too 01:11:00 -!- shikhout has joined. 01:11:10 elliott: Before that was a token based system 01:11:19 dianne: I'm not sure 01:11:19 and before that was a label based token based system 01:11:30 there's a point where you move from impressed to seriously scared 01:11:32 This is the best iteration of the autohotkey sockets library yet 01:12:15 ais523: Does the fully fledged scintilla scripts editor written in autohotkey count for "seriously scared"? That one wasn't by me, but I do beta testing for it 01:13:09 GeekDude: no, merely programming something massive in an utterly unsuitable language still just counts as impressive 01:13:18 lol 01:13:42 Speaking of which, I need to finish implementing the channel switcher in my RichEdit based IRC bot 01:14:02 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:14:11 As opposed to maestrith's (scintilla editor author) scintilla based IRC client 01:14:22 I figured richedit was simpler and better suited to my use 01:19:49 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ACROBATIC CHICKEN). 01:21:09 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:29:57 -!- G33kDude has joined. 01:32:01 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:33:10 -!- GeekDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:33:11 -!- scounder has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:33:11 -!- incomprehensibly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:33:17 -!- incomprehensibly has joined. 01:33:19 -!- G33kDude has changed nick to GeekDude. 01:35:52 Converting this into a bitmap is going to be buckets of fun 01:36:14 I'm up to 51 lines of psudeo-assembly 01:38:11 and haven't even finished the qualifier for the while statement 01:38:54 [wiki] [[Jasp]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40617 * 70.114.225.120 * (+2897) A minimal Scheme using JSON in place of S-Expressions 01:39:32 [wiki] [[Jasp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40618&oldid=40617 * 70.114.225.120 * (+8) /* Jasp */ 01:41:55 -!- visy_ has joined. 01:42:24 -!- SirCmpwn_ has joined. 01:42:25 -!- yorick_ has joined. 01:42:49 -!- visy has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:42:50 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:42:52 -!- Melvar` has joined. 01:42:53 -!- upgrayeddd has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:42:53 -!- incomprehensibly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:42:53 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:42:54 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:43:04 -!- incomprehensibly has joined. 01:44:29 -!- SirCmpwn_ has changed nick to SirCmpwn. 01:44:55 -!- upgrayeddd_ has joined. 01:52:12 -!- scounder has joined. 01:56:45 In order to try to make a format for a program to decide how to arrange blocks (which may include gaps and references) into a file, I made up: http://sprunge.us/aVQa I am trying to decide: [1] If this is good so far [2] How the format of the "Edit" structure should be made 01:57:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:57:44 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar. 01:58:00 (Or even if they are really needed at all) 02:01:38 What are the blocks for? 02:03:33 They would be blocks of data which are placed into a file. For example the blocks might be text strings or subroutines or it might be something else 02:04:42 Since, some file formats use pointer of addresses of blocks so it might help to make them to overlap and fill in gaps with other blocks to make it optimal 02:11:23 -!- brandons1 has joined. 02:15:20 -!- brandonson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:16:59 -!- upgrayeddd_ has changed nick to upgrayeddd. 02:23:33 Taneb: oh, you invented d-modules, right? 02:23:56 i bet you can answer all my questions about tangent bundles and all those things 02:44:03 -!- brandonson has joined. 02:45:53 -!- brandons1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:03:46 -!- nys has quit (Quit: q). 03:16:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:19:31 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 03:20:52 -!- AndoDaan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:43:40 well,,, 03:44:14 madbr: I managed to do something at least 03:44:21 http://i.imgur.com/bEQHgCF.png 03:44:24 It's outputting stars 03:44:34 which means that it's executing, at least 03:44:39 It doesn't seem to be doing what I want though 03:45:07 those are definitely stars. 03:45:27 what language is that? 03:45:31 Hmm? 03:45:35 That's my piet interpreter 03:45:50 So, piet, underneath autohotkey 03:46:43 well... 03:46:57 Just made a debug view in npiet 03:47:07 Right off the bat I forgot to push 13 03:58:39 It appears I've forgotten to pop a value somewhere 04:15:48 >-[-[-<]>>+<]+> (15, 5) wrapping 04:15:50 >-[-[-<]>>+<]> (14, 5) wrapping 04:16:00 I was going to say "these can't both be right" 04:16:10 but actually they can, the top one has a useless use of + 04:16:17 so presumably it got generated by some sort of script? 04:17:02 also for some reason we have 8 different ways to write 77 04:17:25 that's pretty good. does that give you a (13, 5) solution? 04:19:08 Can I store things that are not UI related in nib files? 04:19:27 Bike: the (14, 5) is the (15, 5) with the UUo+ removed 04:19:41 so someone's already done the obvious optimization 04:19:46 oh, wait nvm yeah 04:23:46 -!- bb010g has joined. 04:35:31 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:38:34 Woo! 04:38:36 madbr: It works! 04:39:39 madbr: http://i.imgur.com/ptcY3Y2.png 04:39:44 Output ^ 04:40:00 Source code: http://i.imgur.com/lBn7KGy.png 04:44:12 -!- shikhout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:49:34 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 04:53:11 -!- Lymia has joined. 04:56:18 -!- aretecode has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:59:08 -!- aretecode has joined. 05:01:54 -!- aretecode has quit (Client Quit). 05:22:14 Apparently Active Worlds has a Mac version these days 05:36:09 Wish Apple was making money by selling the OS rather than hardware... the software's what I'm interested in 05:36:38 Maybe with 'official' hardware that they guarantee a best experience with, but allow (but disclaim as likely lower quality) other hardware 05:37:01 They don't seem to allow their customers to choose a lower 'quality' experience 05:38:30 everyone knows disclaimers prevent people from having reaction to things 05:39:00 People are a problem 05:39:30 everyone also knows apple aren't very deliberately positioning themselves as higher-quality and upmarket and not spending resources catering to creating cheaper, lower-quality things 05:41:35 I still don't understand the iPhone size thing. I thought they were keeping things the same resolution, or a multiple of it, to make development easier 05:41:45 Now there's all different size iPhones 05:42:00 Guess could still keep same resolution on different size devices 05:42:06 But... could that be slightly ugly? 05:42:22 http://www.paintcodeapp.com/news/iphone-6-screens-demystified 05:42:55 the number of "points" was already changed: iphone I think 5 increased the height of the screen 05:43:13 (and there is already ipad, in terms of multiple ios "point" resolutions) 05:44:44 This is exactly the most relevant question you could ask, but why is the "a" on the "Points: The content is defined mathematically --" row translucent on the "Original iPhone" but opaque on the iPhone sixes? 05:45:19 fizzie: they only added backgrounds in the iphone 3gs 05:45:25 before that all iphones were transparent. 05:45:33 any questions 05:46:00 No more questions. 05:49:13 Notification Center is a really confusing name. Too similar to NSNotificationCenter, which afaik is unrelated 05:54:16 -!- shikhin has joined. 06:01:01 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:07:39 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 06:36:15 -!- AndoDaan_ has joined. 06:38:32 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:40:46 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:47:12 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:50:55 -!- tromp_ has joined. 07:09:06 AutohotKit reminds me of AutoIt 07:09:44 -!- AndoDaan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:11:05 http://mroman.ch/public/csvHelper.au3 <- I've used lots of AutoIt in my windows-administrator and software-deployment past :) 07:11:50 We had several tools for OS-migration user-migration etc. written in AutoIt 07:13:40 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 07:14:28 ais523: Does MediaWiki have a "Blame" feature? 07:14:48 mroman: not an easy one, as far as I know 07:15:00 there's enough data stored to calculate it, but I don't know if anything actually does the calculation 07:16:16 Grepping history isn't possible as well I guess 07:16:41 (like grepping for who changed foobaz to foobar) 07:18:00 it wouldn't surprise me if someone had written a blame calculator by now 07:18:10 although it'd probably be on the toolserver, thus wikimedia-specific 07:19:38 I might have added the 14b for 33 07:20:12 hm no. That one got removed 07:20:22 because it leaves the tape to the left 07:22:05 Performance wise it's not very wise to use these constants :) 07:22:19 some of the small solutions I found spend like 5k cycles 07:23:02 what if they get optimized into constants? 07:23:16 loop unrolling? 07:23:34 I know some bf implementations can do that 07:24:01 balanced loop polynomializing is the normal standard optimization for this sort of thing 07:24:09 but the really crazy constants use unbalanced loops 07:25:35 Heh, got a very strongly worded letter from IEEE about some over-length page charges that were allegedly due in May. 07:25:49 It mentions "numerous messages" they've sent, none of which I've received. 07:26:06 Wonder where those have all gotten to. 07:26:22 >+[-->-[-<]>]> 07:26:28 ^- is this unbalanced? 07:26:33 yes, [-<] is unbalanced 07:26:38 :) 07:26:44 the number of < doesn't equal the number of > 07:27:05 now I'm interested in BF busy beavers 07:27:06 well... but it saves you 3B from the other solutions! 07:27:14 There's that binary search thing that's vaguely blame-like. 07:27:28 come to think of it, blame would work poorly on Wikipedia 07:27:31 due to all the reverts 07:27:39 I used my crunchfuck thingy and a friend of mine who ran it over night to find those constants 07:28:14 mroman: was the particular form of that program something that you were explicitly looking for? or did you just try random programs? 07:28:27 The http://wikipedia.ramselehof.de/wikiblame.php?lang=en&article=Esoteric_programming_language thing. 07:28:36 (For Wikipedia, not for our wiki.) 07:29:09 ais523: it was an exhaustive search of all combinations of ><.+-[] up to 15B 07:29:33 so I generated every variation/combination, checked if it's a legal brainfuck program, then executed it with max 5k cycles 07:29:41 right 07:29:59 so if there are any better sub-15 constants than the ones on the wiki, they run for even more than 5k cycles? 07:30:01 however, the interpreter wrapped around on leave-the-tape-to-the-left 07:30:08 so some short solutions it found weren't correct 07:30:38 which means there might still be solutions <=15B that run in under than 5k cycles 07:30:56 mroman: so to say, any listed solutions which size is <= 15B is proved optimal? 07:31:19 lifthrasiir: proved to be optimal within 5k cycles 07:31:24 ais523: No. 07:31:30 ah 07:31:33 like I said 07:31:38 yeah, indeed 07:31:42 my interpreter had a fixed amount of cells with wrap-around behaviour 07:31:54 oh, within 5k cycles and a relatively small number of cells 07:32:07 I guess you could just use 5k cells, then lightspeed would mean that the fixed width wouldn't matter 07:32:09 My program for example told me 13B 200 +[-->-[-<]>]> 07:32:11 is it hard to classify non-terminating or long-lasting programs automatically, just like what was done with busy beavers? 07:32:12 -!- Patashu has joined. 07:32:23 which I had to correct to >+[-->-[-<]>]> to not leave the tape to the left 07:32:33 which means there *could* be another 13B solution to 200 07:33:18 ais523: you could fix the leave-tape issue in my crunchfuck.c 07:33:21 then run it over night 07:33:44 ah right, that too 07:33:46 I think up to 15B can be done in a weekend for 5k cycles 07:33:56 and it's a single-core program 07:34:00 :) 07:34:05 is it hard to classify non-terminating or long-lasting programs automatically ← you're getting /suspiciously/ close to the halting problem, there 07:34:21 of course. but some optimizations can be done. 07:34:54 I suspect some clever generation algorithm can eliminate a whole class of redundant simulations... 07:35:35 lifthrasiir: you can certainly eliminate some programs from consideration 07:35:49 katla (IIRC?) was once on a project to find the shortest BF program whose termination status is unknown 07:35:56 input-free, I think 07:36:03 for instance, you can pick some N, and if a program gets stuck in a loop in N or fewer steps, then it doesn't terminate 07:36:10 if it halts in N or fewer steps, it obviously does 07:36:20 by doing a lot of simulation to weed out quick-halting ones, more advanced analysis to deduce some of the rest as non-halting, and manual review for what's left, I believe 07:36:23 knowing the busy beaver behaviour of BF would be very helpful 07:36:41 but probably just as difficult as solving the original problem 07:36:47 I think it would be an interesting project; I wonder how long programs would be before running into a program that this channel can't figure out the halting behaviour of 07:37:27 intuitively I'd guess that we could figure any given, like, length 10 BF programs easily 07:37:30 *program 07:37:52 but I doubt you have to go too high before finding something that stumps humans 07:37:58 even 10's long enough to write programs where it'd at least take us several minutes, I think 07:38:05 yeah 07:38:20 like, what is the kolgomorov complexity of checking the goldbach conjecture? 07:38:28 there's your lower bound 07:38:50 Must... not... spend... hundreds of dollars on a desktop environment I will probably get bored of 07:38:57 the problem is, finding programs with ambiguous halt behaviour is harder than trying to work out halt behaviour manually 07:39:00 Sgeo: don't, seriously 07:39:03 mroman: the implementation you use, is it 256 non-wrap, and 30K cells wrap-around? 07:40:01 What's the closest equivalent to an OSX-like environment in the Linux world? KDE? 07:40:07 ais523: if you can execute a lot of BF programs in parallel you can run a lot of them for a lot of cycles pretty easily, and filtering out trivial infinite loops is easy 07:40:21 KDE is all C++y though :/ 07:40:33 Sgeo: Ubuntu Unity has something that works almost identically to the OS X dock 07:40:37 you'd need more advanced analysis on top of that for length 10, but with dedicated humans getting through whatever's left after that... 07:40:41 except for pinning files 07:41:00 which is completely different 07:41:06 I'm thinking more in terms of development 07:41:09 but then, Windows 7 is pretty similar to both 07:41:29 in terms of development, OS X uses its own entire programming languages (Objective-C and Swift) that nobody else uses 07:43:54 What about libraries and programs interacting with other programs in the DE? 07:44:04 A DE with an equivalent of AppleScript, for example 07:45:01 KDE does most of that stuff through dbus 07:45:12 if sgeo wants to buy a mac v. ais523 doesn't want sgeo to buy a mac carries on long enough it will be worth the cost of a mac for me to stop having to see it. what i'm saying is, keep arguing if you want sgeo to receive a free mac 07:45:13 I haven't found a way to make most Gnome programs scriptable at all 07:45:32 elliott: atm we're discussing Linux 07:45:42 although, hmm, we were having an ontopic conversation before this 07:45:45 not really 07:45:48 re linux 07:46:42 They sometimes have Macs at libraries, right? 07:46:51 I still want one in a VM though, and don't trust BitTorrent 07:47:14 hmm, I'm wondering if this is reaching the point where it's impossible to give Sgeo good advice because he's Sgeo 07:47:20 what don't you trust about bittorrent, exactly 07:48:11 elliott: it worries network administrators, annoys ISPs, and you have to at least trust the other end to give you the file you want (like with an HTTP or FTP download) 07:48:19 thanks, sgeo 07:48:38 Anyone could easily be monitoring who's downloading the file 07:48:51 Rather than just one server (and anyone in between if http) 07:49:02 "Smalltalk-based pure object-oriented environment to work with Mac OS X software." this sounds appealing 07:49:32 Smalltalk + interacting with anything outside Smalltalk sounds /appealing/? 07:49:40 remember, it was my disgust at the situation that lead me to invent Feather 07:49:42 Feather, of all things! 07:49:48 even in america i'm pretty sure you never get more than an isp letter for first violation 07:49:48 this needs more exclamation marks 07:49:51 !!!! 07:50:22 of course private trackers exist 07:50:35 Sgeo: also, anyone between you and any machine you talk to can monitor any unencrypted communication 07:50:44 that's kind of how the internet works 07:50:58 * elliott runs some traceroutes for fun and profit 07:51:25 (and downloading some known file over https isn't really opaque; the size is enough to give it away a lot of the time) 07:51:33 But it might be easier for spying entities to connect to a tracker than to MITM/work with company/ISP with MITP capability 07:51:55 Or at least, that's what I keep thinking. Maybe that's not accurate 07:52:03 s/MITP/MITM/ 07:52:07 Sgeo: have you seen all the internet routing accidents? 07:52:17 where random ASes say "hey, I serve [gigantic block of IPs] now" 07:52:31 and a ton of .govs suddenly get routed through china (seriously, this happened recently)? 07:52:38 well, we know from the Prenda Law stuff that there are some highly incompetent people who can monitor a tracker in such a way that they accidentally make all the downloads from their honeypot legal, but not intercept HTTP 07:53:27 (there is some level of filtering done to routing announcements. but not enough to prevent regular disasters like that. the internet's routing is based on trust, even more than, like, the CA system) 07:53:53 elliott: the amount of filtering used increases every time something like this happens 07:53:56 which is quite frequently 07:54:16 there was that time a while back where a government decided to block YouTube by blackholing its IP 07:54:23 ais523: sure, but AFAIK it doesn't help many hops later 07:54:24 and the block leaked quite some distance beyond national borders 07:54:43 and you don't need disasters this dramatic to do things 07:55:47 Assuming that Intel Graphics is still a euphemism for suck, the only Mac notebook with decent graphics is $2499 07:56:08 Iris Pro is okay. 07:56:22 so are regular intel graphics, up to a point 07:56:43 also, don't you, like, have a computer with a graphics card already? 07:56:44