00:04:12 nortti: ok, according to wiki on Nemesis Sudio, Nemsis == Master of the Hellish Yard (or at least, it describes events that are part of MAster of the Hellish Yard song) 00:12:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:16:24 Hmm, I assume [nil isEqual: nil] is NO :/ 00:16:30 I should check 00:19:32 Well, I got (null) when I tried to NSLog it from http://www.compileonline.com/compile_objective-c_online.php 00:22:25 presumably it's nil, not NO 00:25:30 Yes. Although I think the thing I was reading said if a BOOL was expected, it would give NO. I assume 'expected' is in terms of casting, though? 00:26:13 presumably because (int) NULL is 0 00:28:55 * Sgeo wonders how OS X compares to something like KDE 00:31:45 " Essential to [AppleScript's] functionality is the fact that Macintosh applications publish "dictionaries" of addressable objects and operations." 00:32:01 Hmm, interesting... is DBUS something simiilar on Linux? 00:37:35 yes 00:38:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:39:37 note that KDE doesn't do its own thing any more, it just uses dbus 00:39:42 afaik 00:40:09 hi 00:40:13 hi 00:43:34 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:43:37 molecular steel 00:43:48 I think my computer has an annoying habit of being an hour slow 00:43:58 I was planning to catch a train to University at about 11pm 00:44:03 but it was actually midnight, so I had to walk 00:44:16 even worse, this means that the places where I expected to be able to potentially by food were shut 00:44:38 so I took a ~20 minute detour to go to a 24 hour supermarket, only to find it wasn't 24 hour any more 00:44:42 ais523: have you heard of daylight savings time? 00:44:48 eventually I got food from a petrol station 00:44:54 elliott_: yes, I have 00:45:04 but this has happened on more than one occasion; and the clock updates from ntp 00:45:05 thanks for the information. keep me updated if you stop having heard of it 00:45:21 ais523: I bet a disagreement on whether the hardware clock is UTC or localtime 00:45:23 that's a problem with windows 00:45:29 though maybe it doesn't apply for dst 00:45:36 this is one thing I was wondering about, indeed 00:45:37 a problem with windows and linux, that is 00:45:40 it'd explain an hour offset 00:46:32 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:46:55 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 00:47:28 wow these crisps are terrible, even though they're the brand I normally buy 00:49:17 ais523: there are only like two brand + flavour combinations I like 00:49:26 also the computer here turns itself on and off spontaneously, I'm assuming it's some combination of standby-timeout and wake-on-LAN 00:49:32 and a small handful of others that I'll eat when nothing else is available 00:49:34 coppro: they're the brand /and/ flavour I normally buy 00:49:53 weird 00:50:00 and they're in date (29 11 14, which is a nicely unambiguous date) 00:50:04 but the packet is larger than normal 00:50:17 ais523: 2029-11-14? 00:50:22 wait, not completely ambiguous, it could be the 14th November 2029 00:50:31 but I don't think crisps last that long 00:50:54 so either they use lower-quality ingredients for the larger packs, or they go off when they're close to the best-before date 00:51:22 * ais523 throws the crisps away 00:51:29 they had a negative price anyway due to interaction of special offers 00:51:34 I wasn't planning to buy them 00:51:34 haha 00:56:13 ais523: Perhaps it's the 11th of Twentyninember, 29 AD. 00:56:39 it's middle-endian 00:56:40 pikhq: that uses 29 twice 00:56:56 it expired on the 29th of Second February, 2011 00:57:04 [wiki] [[Polyglot]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40601&oldid=36314 * 90.189.54.149 * (-30) 00:57:14 elliott_: I don't think he knows about second february 00:58:13 it only happens on leap years 00:58:54 * A complete date was specified, so use the other pope. 00:58:55 */ 00:59:12 that is an amazing comment 00:59:31 what does it mean 01:00:26 it's from the source of the "cal" utility from netbsd 01:01:00 ais523: how dead is agora these days? 01:01:23 elliott_: it has a spurt of activity starting last week 01:01:35 when comex attempted a dictatorship scam, and I attempted a counterscam 01:01:44 that is the only thing going on, though, and it was mostly dead before that 01:04:48 nys: wasn't Julian an emperor? 01:04:59 hm maybe 01:05:01 ah, yes, it was Julius Caesar himself 01:05:07 i'm not a calendarist 01:07:01 -!- aretecode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:07:49 coppro: 14 is clearly the ancinet number of repetition. 01:08:07 ... what the what. 01:08:16 Lettuce, yes *lettuce*, is a mild narcotic. 01:09:12 pikhq: ban it 01:09:18 wait, we haven't come up with a scary name for it 01:09:26 Lactucarium. 01:09:31 excellent 01:09:35 rename it to lactucarium, then ban it 01:09:37 -!- aretecode has joined. 01:09:52 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:13:49 -!- Lymia has joined. 01:25:13 sounds like lactation. 01:26:02 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:26:21 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 01:29:52 -!- shikhout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:30:21 can you ever do anything useful with a /usr/bin/cd that just runs cd in a shell? 01:30:50 Uuuuh. Unsure. 01:31:42 a /usr/bin/cd could attach a debugger to its parent and force it to run chdir 01:32:04 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/Akc6r.gif). 01:32:19 :( 01:32:44 It could leave the new shell running 01:34:49 oh wow, this is broken 01:35:00 the directory bash thinks I'm in is not the directory I'm actually in 01:35:17 That's pretty easy to do. 01:35:27 The directory bash thinks you're in is the contents of PWD. 01:36:57 pikhq: OS X ships with one :) and I guess FreeBSD at least in the past, going by the copyright attribution on the file 01:37:32 how do I get bash to read a file and send it to another process's stdin? 01:37:32 maybe bash stats the dir it's in or something, so you can use it to trigger a side-effect with a FUSE filesystem that waits to be statted 01:37:40 ais523: err, cmd < file? 01:37:43 doing "command < file" doesn't work, because then the command reads the file 01:37:47 not bash, bash just opens the file 01:37:54 ais523: cmd =(cat file), in zsh 01:38:24 erm, sort of 01:38:31 sorry, I'm really wrong. 01:38:39 elliott_: then cat reads it, just checked 01:38:41 does cat file | cmd not work? 01:38:45 oh, you really want bash itself to do it 01:38:48 yes 01:38:48 ( that'll be a subshell though 01:38:56 There's always read 01:39:12 ais523: { oh, I guess elliott_: I tried that last one in zsh, seems to be run by a process called "pager" 01:40:29 ais523: pager, really? 01:40:37 the only pager I know is the one I have to automatically page stuff 01:40:46 elliott_: yes, it surprises me too 01:40:59 "pager" seems to be a wrapper around less on my system 01:41:07 so I guess zsh is using some sort of weird intelligence 01:41:25 Sounds pretty zsh. 02:06:34 -!- aloril has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:18:17 -!- aloril has joined. 02:26:26 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 02:29:17 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:36:54 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RiftocLANG * New user account 02:37:22 hmm, that might be not a spambot 02:41:32 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:42:42 I'm glad that levels, so far, has managed to get away with rebasing onto the master branch 02:42:46 oh wait, wrong channel 02:59:36 How to make a "block assembler" that it the program instead of specifying absolute addresses, can contain blocks, and the blocks can contain gaps, calculations, inlining of other blocks, preferences of closer blocks, etc, and then can determine how to put them into the binary including overlapping and that stuff? 03:00:40 (O, and also specification of alignment of blocks.) 03:21:08 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 03:54:59 -!- tromp_ has joined. 04:26:41 -!- ais523 has quit. 04:26:49 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 04:26:59 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 04:30:18 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:30:29 -!- Frooxius has joined. 04:40:17 -!- nys has quit (Quit: q). 04:44:02 As far as I can see, all of the unofficial "NOP immediate" instructions in 6502 seem to do that because the processor is not designed to write to immediates. But if this is the case, why do instructions $C2 and $E2 still take only two cycles without affecting flags? 04:44:39 re_birthday has a very ... revelation-ary feel, at least the sub I watch/like. "The red chains disappear and said to me 'You will soon be reborn'" 04:44:49 And a lot of descriptions of what he sees 04:46:41 (According to the pattern of the table, $C2 and $E2 would have been "decrement immediate" and "increment immediate".) 04:47:26 zzo38: what should writing to immediates do? modify the command itself in memory? 04:48:24 ais523: Well, it should *try* to modify the command itself in memory; of course if it is ROM it won't work (but if there are side-effects for writing there, it should do that). 04:48:39 Note that VAX does have commands to write to immediate operands. 04:56:41 ais523: How about while read x; do echo "$x"; done < file | cmd ? (Might need extra work to cope with some contents, and while reading should be done by bash, it'd be a subshell and not the original; though reading all to a variable separately should be doable too.) 04:57:12 subshell doesn't really work for my idea 04:57:26 what I wanted to do was get at the parent of bash from inside bash by reading /proc/self/status 04:58:27 wait, would a simple /proc/$$/status work? I think I'm overcomplicating this 04:58:54 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:58:55 read -d $'\0' x; echo -n "$x" | cmd ...but $$ should work too. 04:59:06 yes, it does, I was being stupid 04:59:10 still, the original problem was interesting 04:59:47 read -d $'\0' x < file; echo -n "$x" | cmd that is. And won't work with nulls. 05:05:58 OK, behold my working implementation of cd: http://sprunge.us/PBNT 05:06:08 wait, I should probably be deleting the tempfile 05:06:10 after use 05:06:11 oh well 05:07:11 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 05:07:34 Couldn't you do that without tempfiles with something like gdb ... -x <(echo ...) ? (May involve exporting some variables for the command in <(...) to use.) 05:09:52 Or I guess just (echo ...; echo ...) | gdb -x - if it takes that, or -x /dev/stdin if not. 05:10:06 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:10:41 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 05:11:52 Or did bash copy even unexported variables to subshells, just not to the actual environment of executed commands? I guess it might, sounds like it'd be a too common pitfall if it didn't. 05:12:23 I just wanted to get it working; I expected there to be a cleaner way to do it 05:16:39 ais523: disgusting 05:16:45 thanks 05:17:33 ais523: this is making me think about a shell where all builtins are implemented externally... 05:17:51 like, if /proc/pid/cwd was a link to a program's current directory, and you could just change it, or something 05:17:59 I guess current directory is a libc abstraction though? 05:18:20 well, /proc/pid/cwd is a symlink, so you should be able to retarget it with ln -sf 05:18:31 and you could actually implement that in the kernel 05:18:36 and no, current directory is kernel, not libc 05:18:43 um, are you saying it exists? 05:18:48 wow, it does 05:18:51 why didn't it tab-complete? 05:18:58 /proc is weird 05:19:18 looks like ln -sf on the cwd just does nothing 05:19:19 :( 05:19:29 this becomes obvious when you realise that a process's current directory can be deleted 05:19:36 right 05:19:43 hmm, what other core builtins of a posix shell are there? 05:19:50 I guess, actually, it's less obvious 05:19:57 what libc /could/ do is hold a handle to it open 05:20:01 and use the *at functions to move around 05:20:20 exit could use a signal 05:20:23 except for status codes 05:21:33 export, you'd make processes have mutable environs (a major departure, admittedly, that's a libc abstraction right now) and have the shell expose the non-exported variable bindings in /proc/pid, and then just move them around 05:21:54 this is terrible 05:22:58 ais523: it's a shame you can't use that cd to do exploits 05:23:07 since it requires your parent process to run you with the same user anyway 05:23:15 so you can't, like, exploit it in a CGI or whatever 05:23:17 actually... can you? 05:23:22 s/shame/good thing/? 05:23:22 CGIs are often run as the webserver user, I guess 05:23:34 Can a .EXE file be made that can work in DOS, Windows, and also in .NET/Mono? 05:23:45 can you make a CGI that shuts down the parent webserver? 05:23:45 oh 05:23:48 it could just, like, use kill. 05:23:52 and really, if you can get a webserver to run gdb, you can probably get it to do anything 05:24:13 ais523: well, being able to write to a .php file is one thing 05:24:17 killing apache with it is another 05:24:19 zzo38: you might have problems with the magic numbers in the first few bytes, which are intentionally designed to distinguish between files 05:24:36 you could almost certainly make a valid Linux ELF executable that's also a valid Windows COM executable, though 05:24:43 I know that a .EXE file can be designed for both DOS and Windows. 05:24:48 elliott_: gdb is a C interpreter 05:25:10 ais523: my point is just, being able to control the webserver process 05:25:11 ais523: Isn't .COM only DOS programs though? 05:25:18 thus if you can give arbitrary input to it, you already have arbitrary local exec 05:25:26 ais523: yes... 05:26:22 ais523: I don't think you are replying to what I am saying 05:26:22 I don't understand what you're saying, in that case 05:26:22 my *premise* is that you can run any old code. that's exactly what getting to write to a .php or any other CGI type thing is. 05:26:22 it didn't strike me until now that that might extend to, say, being able to shut down apache because it forks CGIs as the same user. 05:26:22 But, yes I suppose if it can be done a .COM program which is both a valid DOS program and x86 Linux ELF program, can help too, for a different purpose. 05:26:39 but anyway I wasn't thinking that clearly. 05:26:59 zzo38: you could create a .COM that writes an executable file in /temp or somewhere like that, then runs it 05:27:25 ais523: ELF files are required to start with "jg 0x47" ("\x7fE"); now I wonder about the initial state of flags. If that is guaranteed to jump, it'd make a polyglot ELF/.com positively trivial to write. 05:27:28 ais523: Yes, although I am not trying to do that anyways. 05:27:50 fizzie: and EXE files have to start MZ or ZM 05:28:05 so ELF/EXE is impossible (except that you can rename a .COM file to .EXE and it'll still work, IIRC) 05:28:18 (It probably wouldn't be terribly hard otherwise either, since there's free bytes quite near the start in ELF.) 05:28:33 It has to start with MZ, regardless if it is DOS, Windows, or .NET/Mono, and a .EXE file can be both DOS and Windows. 05:29:11 -!- password2 has joined. 05:29:30 Just starting DEBUG on my computer right now I get the following flags: NV UP EI PL NZ NA PO NC I don't know which (if any) are guaranteed, though. 05:29:40 does jg 0x47 do anything exciting? 05:29:48 oh 05:29:59 I was thinking it was intentionally jg 05:30:03 but you were just disassembling for convenience 05:30:19 It would jump into a place which you could easily arrange to be free of ELF headers, that's all. 05:30:22 fizzie: ideally, put an ELF loader starting at 0x47 05:30:28 that loads the executable itself 05:30:36 That would be nifty. 05:30:38 turn any elf into a .com! 05:31:09 how does the linux kernel's EFISTUB thing work? 05:31:15 compiled linux kernels are ELF executables, I believe? 05:31:25 but they're also UEFI applications, so they have to be PE/COFF 05:32:44 elliott_: I believe it just wraps an ELF in the minimum headers needed to make it look like a PE executable 05:33:16 how does that maintain compatibility with things expecting the kernel to be a regular ELF? I guess there maybe aren't such things 05:33:24 or are there? 05:33:29 linux doesn't do multiboot, IIRC 05:34:53 I figured out what the rest of the instructions in the ELF header would be too; it seems to be: JG 0147 DEC SP INC SI ADD [BX+DI],AX ADD [BP+DI],AX 05:35:14 elliott_: I think the only things that expect that are lilo and grub, and they're generally quite good at changing to fit what Linux needs 05:35:14 (This is what DEBUG tells me it is anyways after I filled in the header according to what Wikipedia says.) 05:35:54 ais523: are you telling me that linux dropped compatibility with all older versions of grub when it gained EFISTUB support? 05:35:57 I don't believe you 05:36:13 elliott_: I think it was a kernel option whether to become EFI or not 05:36:19 and you wouldn't turn it on if you had an old GRUB 05:36:27 it was probably off by default (quite possibly still is, in fact) 05:37:07 I don't think what you're saying is plausible. EFISTUB is on in any distro that supports gummiboot, at the least. 05:37:15 hmm 05:37:21 https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/efi-stub.txt 05:37:40 it looks to me far more like it just makes a dubious PE/COFF and ELF polyglot that is good enough to fool firmware, or something 05:37:56 sudo file /boot/vmlinuz-3.13.0-37-generic 05:37:57 /boot/vmlinuz-3.13.0-37-generic: x86 boot sector 05:38:21 http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/arch/x86/boot/header.S 05:38:38 file isn't very good at polyglots 05:38:50 it starts MZ, anyway 05:38:57 so my conclusion is, it's not an ELF and never was 05:40:06 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vmlinux#bzImage aha 05:40:06 it contains ELFs 05:40:06 "movw $bugger_off_msg, %si" 05:40:32 ".word 0x8664 # x86-64", nice 05:41:10 I like how linux just tells you to fuck off if you use it as a boot sector 05:41:12 I guess it no longer supports that 05:42:00 hmm, both the entire PlayStation series, and the GameCube and Wii, use ELF 05:42:12 it's weird to think of a games console as using an executable format at all 05:42:42 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep). 05:42:43 cartridges always used to work .COM-style, the cartridge /is/ your memory 05:42:43 even playstation 1? 05:42:43 ah no 05:42:43 PS2 onwards 05:42:45 I saw four entries, but one of them's the PSP 05:43:02 "# Explicitly enter this as bytes, or the assembler # tries to generate a 3-byte jump here, which causes # everything else to push off to the wrong offset." assembly: too high-level 05:43:23 Bike: this sort of thing happens a lot 05:43:39 the Linux kernel has a table of efficient NOPs of various byte lengths 05:43:59 and Raymond Chen talks about how for a while, the Windows kernel needed specifically 32-bit NOPs in order to work around bugs in early 32-bit processors 05:44:11 (you can't just write NOP, it might assemble to the wrong bitwidth) 05:44:43 "# Apparently some ancient versions of LILO invoked the kernel with %ss != %ds, which happened to work by accident for the old code. Recalculate the stack pointer if %ss is invalid." jesus 05:46:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:18:50 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:21:52 -!- tlvb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:26:32 ais523: the fun part about efficient nops at various byte length is that the AMD optimization manuals and the Intel optimization manuals recommend different ones. 06:26:46 as in, all of them work as nops in all cpus, but different ones are recommended as the most efficient. 06:28:44 benchmark them 06:29:27 elliott_: that's a bit tricky, because the difference may be in the decoder, not the execution when it's already cached 06:29:47 elliott_: also, no 06:29:50 that just means you have to be more evil :p 06:29:52 I'll just believe the manuals 06:30:03 why wouldn't I believe them?\ 06:30:09 b_jonas: well, I mean to find the best compromise 06:30:14 no I don't 06:30:16 between the two manufcaturers 06:30:19 no 06:30:33 I don't actually think you're obligated to. 06:30:49 in code where that kind of micro-optimization really matters, you can just generate different code for amd and intel cpus, and different code for different generations 06:31:08 if it doesn't matter, then just use one of them 06:31:32 I was kidding. :p 06:33:09 also, it's not my job, I'm not the one writing compilers 06:33:57 I only use them 06:34:55 I want to know how to make a compiler that can decide where to place blocks that are allowed to overlap if they contain partially same data, and which may contain gaps and expressions as well. 06:35:50 Is there software like that? 06:36:33 zzo38: this is about that Z-machine stuff still? 06:37:14 b_jonas: In this case yes, although I also want to know how it can be done in a general purpose way, not only specific to Z-machine. 06:37:38 (O, and I have now released a Z-machine debugging interpreter, in case you want it for any reason.) 06:38:01 zzo38: Today I was talking about the Z-machine with someone. 06:38:18 And also Zork Zero. 06:39:34 Zork Zero is YZIP, and this interpreter I made is ZIP. So, Zork Zero will not run on it, but Zork I will work. 06:39:39 (I have tested Zork I.) 06:41:41 But Zork Zero is more fun. 06:41:45 OK 06:42:17 We also talked about Zork: Grand Inquisitor. 06:55:50 @tell AndoDaan well, 'minor'... <-- it's not supposed to be used for actual new content. 06:55:50 Consider it noted. 06:56:29 @tell AndoDaan i tend to err on the side of _not_ marking edits minor. 06:56:29 Consider it noted. 07:00:51 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:03:59 @tell coppro nys: wasn't Julian an emperor? <-- there _was_ an emperor julian, even if that's not who the term refers to. 07:03:59 Consider it noted. 07:10:59 oerjan: ah, sorry. I should have realized that. 07:12:49 In the future I'll be less minor marking happy. 07:13:20 good, good 07:14:14 How many of the months of the year are named after caesars? 07:14:54 2? 07:15:06 augustine and julius 07:15:48 *augustus 07:15:56 augustine was a christian saint 07:16:14 What was February named after? 07:16:30 some roman god 07:17:44 technically july and august are _also_ named after some roman god, because the senate declared many of the emperors to be gods 07:18:03 (also julius wasn't technically an emperor) 07:18:35 (also technically a whole bunch of the caesar had all of julius, caesar and augustus in their name. or something like that.) 07:18:38 *+s 07:19:18 ok possibly february isn't named after a god 07:19:32 "The Roman month Februarius was named after the Latin term februum, which means purification, via the purification ritual Februa held on February 15 (full moon) in the old lunar Roman calendar." 07:20:23 the roman calendar just gets weirder every time i read about it: "January and February were the last two months to be added to the Roman calendar, since the Romans originally considered winter a monthless period." 07:20:50 Augustine sounded pretty in my head :\ 07:20:56 oerjan: http://www.tondering.dk/claus/calendar.html 07:21:05 http://www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/roman.php in particular 07:21:39 oerjan: also http://www.xkcd.com/1104/ 07:26:21 oerjan: Of course a lot of the month names are different in slavic languages 07:26:35 January is Styczeń in Polish 07:27:50 I have to go now 07:28:10 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:30:33 We've got mostly godless months, they're more about agriculture and stuff. 07:30:34 Tammikuu, helmikuu, maaliskuu, huhtikuu, toukokuu, kesäkuu, heinäkuu, elokuu, syyskuu, lokakuu, marraskuu, joulukuu. 07:30:50 Several of those are very unimaginative. June -> kesäkuu -> "summer month". 07:31:06 September -> syyskuu -> "autumn month". 07:31:15 December -> joulukuu -> "Christmas month". 07:33:27 And October -> lokakuu -> approximately "mud month", July -> heinäkuu -> "hay month". 07:35:03 And toukokuu and elokuu are named after the planting and harvesting of wheat. 07:35:58 mud month :D 07:36:14 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/loka#Finnish 07:37:04 Let's see, what's left? January -> tammikuu -> literally "oak month", but AIUI it's originally from some other meaning of 'tammi' somewhat like 'core', because it's the 'core' of winter. February -> helmikuu -> "pearl month", allegedly from pearl-like ice in the trees. 07:38:01 March -> maaliskuu -> unknown etymology, rumoured to be something about how the ground ("maa") gets uncovered when the snow melts. 07:38:39 April -> huhtikuu -> something about forestry related to that time of the year. 07:39:37 November -> marraskuu -> "death month", basically. 07:39:58 From an entirely obsolete/archaic word http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/marras#Finnish 07:40:02 And that's the lot. 07:40:40 death month is hardcore. 07:40:54 That's how we roll. 07:44:17 and toukokuu (May) is something like "seed-planting month" 07:48:45 fizzie doesn't believe in may. 07:52:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Needs more napping). 07:54:06 you can't get more unimaginative than the hebrew system for naming days 07:54:29 sunday-friday are called first day, second day, third day, fourth day, fifth day, sixth day 07:59:52 If I have one block "ABC???DEF" and one block "A???F" then it can overlap like "ABC?A?DEF" assuming the alignment and areas are OK. What algorithm is usable? 08:06:15 shachaf: so do Chinese days of the week 08:23:10 Actually this particular kind of overlapping seems to be less important than just filling in gaps of blocks with other blocks. 08:30:29 However there is still at least the following: [1] A block may have an alignment and offset from that alignment. [2] A block can contain gaps. [3] A block may be restricted in where it can be placed. [4] A block can contain arithmetic on addresses of other blocks. 08:31:57 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:35:26 How should this be encoded into the computer in a best way that it can be efficiently decided to put in the blocks too? 08:40:52 -!- ais523 has quit. 08:44:49 O, there is also the case of a block being made up of blocks, so the block can have a container. I suppose this can even be used as a generalization of needing in different areas of the file, too. 08:44:59 -!- thekey has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:49:51 How can a sorting algorithm work on a partial ordering? 08:56:53 zzo38: topological sort? 09:04:49 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:27:21 Let me see if Wikipedia describes it 09:32:35 Yes, it looks like the thing I would need. 09:52:39 -!- S1 has joined. 10:11:06 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:12:02 -!- olsner has joined. 10:22:27 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Viznut * New user account 10:23:18 Huh, I wonder if that's "the" viznut. 10:24:41 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:25:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:25:08 -!- viznut has joined. 10:25:30 Heh, seems likely. 10:28:19 [wiki] [[Esolang:Community portal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40602&oldid=34737 * Fizzie * (+125) /* IRC */ Advertise the IRC RC feed. 10:28:48 I've been meaning to mention that there for a while now. (Not that it probably sees that many visitors.) 10:39:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:41:31 If I have one block "ABC???DEF" and one block "A???F" then it can overlap like "ABC?A?DEF" assuming the alignment and areas are OK. What algorithm is usable? <-- also as ABC?F?DEF 10:42:20 (not much idea of algorithm, although it reminds me of what i was thinking about optimizing /// interpretation) 10:42:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: monthly reboot). 10:47:28 oerjan: I swear the "Mail merge" anagolf problem is made to make Haskell look bad. 10:47:44 oerjan: Well, yes, both ways work in that case. 10:47:55 int-e: that wasn't specifically my intention with the problem 10:47:59 int-e: i haven't looked at it yet 10:48:40 It's kind of similar to the sequence alignment stuff our bioinformaticists deal with, except presumably in this case there's no fuzz factor involved, and the solution would need to exactly fill the criteria. And I'm not sure they deal with that kind of missing data, more like "there can be gaps anywhere". 10:48:46 b_jonas: ghc's runtime wants to treat input and output as UTF-8, which fails miserably. 10:49:05 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 10:49:11 int-e: um, but isn't that input and output UTF-8? 10:49:21 let me check the form 10:49:27 nope, it seems to be ISO8859-1 10:49:27 or hexdump it 10:49:28 oerjan: However, if there is a constraint that the two blocks need to have different addresses for some reason, then it won't work; otherwise it does work. 10:50:38 anyway, my submission currently starts with import System.IO;main=mapM(`hSetBinaryMode`True)[stdin,stdout]>> (is there a shorter way to do that?) and it's annoying. 10:50:50 ouch 10:50:55 int-e: it does seems to be utf8 to me 10:51:19 b_jonas: submit a cat program, the submission form gives you hex dumps for output and expected output 10:51:25 It does seem to be UTF-8 to me too. 10:51:26 int-e: it starts with \xc3\x81tv\xc3\xa9teli 10:51:37 int-e: yes, that's what I just did 10:51:42 Expected: "\xc3\x81tv\xc3\xa9teli". 10:51:57 Quite UTF-8y. 10:51:59 hmm. 10:52:12 let me try to check if it's all UTF-8 10:53:24 "UTF-8 Unicode text", says file about the entire expected output, after replacing \xNN's. 10:53:37 ok, I'm misdiagnosing the problem 10:54:20 perhaps _haskell_ isn't set to utf8 by default in that version? 10:54:30 The anagolf environment seems to use the C locale, if that helps. 10:54:37 Possibly Haskell is locale-aware enough? 10:54:39 I think it's all utf-8 10:54:41 but in any case I'm getting a.out: : hGetContents: invalid argument (invalid byte sequence) for interact id. what's the locale setting there? 10:54:48 int-e: "C". 10:55:01 in later versions it is locale-aware. 10:55:33 ... ("LC_ALL","C") 10:55:38 oh, so it does that stupid thing like the python stdlib by default where it tries to interpret any file read according to your locale automatically? 10:55:42 don't know about 7.4. 10:55:53 b_jonas: yes. 10:56:28 I do recall that ghc 7.4 was in a particularly bad state concerning encoding issues, 7.6 being slightly better 10:56:56 it's hGetContents that's in trouble, so it's breaking on input 10:57:03 but with a C locale, the input *should* be treated as bytes, so what's that error doing there... 10:57:11 The (POSIX) C locale is nominally ASCII, so all the non-ascii bytes are technically invalid? 10:58:14 `` echo "äöü" | LC_ALL=C ghc -e 'interact id' 10:58:26 oh. : : hGetContents: invalid argument (invalid byte sequence) 11:00:03 fizzie: And that's how ghc treats it (in version 7.8 as well). SIGH. 11:00:10 How does 'exec is denied' interact with something like bash, incidentally? Only shell builtins? 11:00:41 someone said it doesn't apply to shell scripts, but... 11:01:20 If it doesn't, it might easily turn out the case that a shell script that calls GHC after setting locale would be shorter than a "Haskell" solution, which is patently silly. 11:01:29 well, I'm sorry if this causes you trouble with Haskell. 11:08:54