< 1412986828 521656 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1412986838 781153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1412987061 911466 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1412987465 959296 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: antilunch < 1412987610 244102 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1412988712 941913 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1412989476 943786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1412990304 15016 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1412990602 948180 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1412990859 985706 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1412991225 295037 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1412993036 648899 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1412993128 354322 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1412994548 377300 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1412995452 238036 :TodPunk!~Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1412995613 633849 :TodPunk!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1412995702 565143 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1412995722 970467 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1412996302 626338 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1412996807 250965 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1412997326 781329 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1412997508 361826 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1412997791 799436 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get a message "warning: this decimal constant is unsigned only in ISO C90". What should I do about that? The relevant line of code is: if(x&1) mt[ind]^=2567483615L; < 1412997813 750928 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :use UL suffix instead, I think < 1412997824 122111 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it LU < 1412997830 416203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think either works, but I always use UL < 1412997857 304217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! long unsigned x = 4LU; printf("%lu\n", x); < 1412997857 800046 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/long: not found < 1412997861 291860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! c long unsigned x = 4LU; printf("%lu\n", x); < 1412997862 160303 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. < 1412997863 953248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1412997869 371199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! c long unsigned x = 4UL; printf("%lu\n", x); < 1412997870 232824 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. < 1412997895 722153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, there are too many things that could have gone wrong there < 1412997905 927697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! c printf("Hello, world!\n"); < 1412997906 755981 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. < 1412997910 693558 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :welp < 1412997921 766386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! c extern int puts(const char *); puts("Hello, world!"); < 1412997922 706347 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world! < 1412997924 809602 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls bin | grep c < 1412997925 475582 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :botsnack \ buttsnack \ calc \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ echo \ echo \ emoclew \ fsck \ gccrun \ icode \ lowercase \ luac \ luarocks \ luarocks-admin \ macro \ marco \ morse-decode \ multicode \ ozcome \ psocmd \ qc \ quachaf \ r13elcome \ rec \ relcome \ ReLcOmE \ runc \ runcp < 1412997926 613908 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :missing stdio.h < 1412997933 617282 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The variable is the same size; I am not sure why it should display a warning in such a case. < 1412997936 158894 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cc puts("q") < 1412997936 738049 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/a.c:1:6: error: expected declaration specifiers or ‘...’ before string constant < 1412997939 8417 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cc puts("q"); < 1412997939 587986 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/a.c:1:6: error: expected declaration specifiers or ‘...’ before string constant < 1412997940 162971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is awkward, because I can't include it without a newline < 1412997943 256510 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cc int main() { puts("q"); } < 1412997944 61588 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :q < 1412997953 124339 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think it interprets \n < 1412997961 231237 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! c printf("q\\n"); < 1412997962 253963 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :q < 1412997977 433414 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you misdiagnosed the problem < 1412997983 872346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1412997988 528142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! c long unsigned x = 4UL; printf("%lu\\n", x); < 1412997989 464353 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 < 1412997992 786032 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1412997997 740328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! c long unsigned x = 4LU; printf("%lu\\n", x); < 1412997998 686486 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 < 1412998001 524753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LU everywhere < 1412998039 688816 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! c unsigned long x = 4UUL; printf("%lu\\n", x); < 1412998040 607541 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. < 1412998063 258223 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I put UL instead of just L and now it isn't warning, but like I said it shouldn't matter in this case if it is signed or not. < 1412998088 96582 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Since, the type of the variable is long, too) < 1412998129 508996 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the problem is that it's too big for the signed version < 1412998137 879481 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the C standard only guarantees literals of a certain size or whatever < 1412998169 196621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a constant between the range of int and unsigned int, then it depends on the standards version whether its type is unsigned or long < 1412998176 180956 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can definitely matter if you use it in a comparison, or the like < 1412998181 189436 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm bin/quachaf < 1412998182 471966 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1412998204 226092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why gcc is complaining, it's telling you to specify the type in order to avoid confusion later < 1412998227 654583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsigned or long long, in this case, because you presumably have sizeof (int) == sizeof (long) < 1412998305 598661 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as you can see, it isn't a comparison. < 1412998356 841339 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why presumably? < 1412998396 581409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: otherwise "L" wouldn't be ambiguous, it'd be unambiguously long < 1412998415 640677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a very small chance that int is only 16 bits and long is 32 bits; higher than usual because this is zzo38 we're talking about < 1412998436 401635 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you need two "L"s for "long long"? < 1412998448 631323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, and that would also be unambiguous < 1412998470 658825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically gcc's complaining that the constant should either be 2567483615UL or 2567483615LL < 1412998477 188675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which it is depends on whether you're using c89 or c99 < 1412998517 153689 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, that's what it means. < 1412998769 684053 :tlvb!~Leo@c-2ec3b9bd-74736162.cust.telenor.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1412998967 263868 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : isn't sizeof int 4 and sizeof long long 8? (and then long is 4 bytes on msvc and 8 on gcc) < 1412999021 825513 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: not always, although those are very common nowadays < 1412999030 433138 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I grew up on compilers where sizeof (int) was 2 < 1412999039 680778 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's 20 years ago < 1412999041 287355 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, note that you need the parens when using sizeof on types < 1412999069 977229 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's sparc that has 64bit ints? < 1412999080 911664 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the 64bit RISCs < 1412999100 985782 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ABI is an OS thing as well as an architecture thing < 1412999106 562982 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :irl it doesn't really make sense because you rarely need ints that large < 1412999117 64834 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance long is 32-bits on x86-64 windows and 64-bits on x86-64 linux < 1412999124 195847 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1412999130 686658 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you should never use long < 1412999138 977762 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you like things breaking < 1412999211 77925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: I use "long" as a sort of ghetto uint_least32_t < 1412999211 231236 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the same applies to int, really. < 1412999217 912143 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :platform-specific integer sizes aren't a great idea. < 1412999221 849641 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : why not int? < 1412999228 786221 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because int can be 16 bits < 1412999232 994687 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude < 1412999252 303092 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you compile on a platform with 16bit ints probably everything will break < 1412999264 386461 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree, your code probably doesn't work on embedded platforms < 1412999265 866296 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :array with more than 16k values? break < 1412999268 598397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: many of my programs needed changes to work with 32bit ints < 1412999275 209768 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think ais523's code is significantly more likely to < 1412999285 430184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically because the Windows API had a number of breaking changes in terms of source code between 3.1 and 95 < 1412999287 118934 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: um, arrays are indexed by size_t, not int < 1412999299 484855 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was inexperienced enough not to be aware of portability issues < 1412999305 584441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows upgrades soon trained me differently, though < 1412999321 400140 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows may be good at running old binaries, but it's rather less good at compiling old source < 1412999325 159955 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_ : that's really an embedded platform thing tbh < 1412999337 804491 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? no. int is 32 bits on x86-64 linux and you can have arrays bigger than 2 gigabytes < 1412999350 487908 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why you use size_t < 1412999355 521741 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sed -i '/%lu/%zu/' * # magically, errors disappear < 1412999359 957818 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, there were a number of issues, e.g. the standard way to play a MIDI file on Windows 98 freezes your program for like 30 seconds the first time you try it on Windows XP) < 1412999366 297111 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a 2gb array there almost is certainly somethinbg else wrong with your code < 1412999367 910144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or was it 95 to 98?) < 1412999370 45199 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :warnings, whatev, everything's catastrophic < 1412999422 319275 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: a minute ago you were saying size_t is an embedded platform thing? < 1412999438 170430 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no what I'm saying is that 16bit int is an embedded platform thing < 1412999447 999540 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you just making up context-free rebuttals that sound snappy rather than ever admitting you're wrong < 1412999491 430482 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I'm saying is that yes 16bit platforms are a thing, but irl it's very unlikely that general c++ code will even run on those < 1412999503 195512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: I wrote C++ on 16-bit platforms for years < 1412999513 410130 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : on x86? < 1412999518 770885 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1412999525 10 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1412999532 386042 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said anything about c++? < 1412999532 797480 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :16bit x86 WAS a thing < 1412999536 517463 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's long dead < 1412999551 552942 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_ : once again, embedded platform < 1412999559 21557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"long" = "approximately when Vista was released" < 1412999559 951023 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what. < 1412999563 616379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not that long ago, people still use XP < 1412999568 197008 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking about C, I'm pretty sure ais523 was too < 1412999574 168380 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do embedded platforms have to do with it? < 1412999576 985859 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :16bit has been dead since win32 < 1412999581 762258 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's windows95 < 1412999591 580318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I "learned" C++ before C < 1412999596 435350 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, sure you can run 16bit apps on win95 < 1412999610 987384 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there was no reason to make new ones from then on < 1412999637 707405 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still write 16-bit DOS programs sometimes though < 1412999655 507622 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i "learned" c++ before c also, it's pretty hilariosu < 1412999660 501115 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... all the dos programs I've written were 32 bit < 1412999670 683773 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think nobody uses c on embedded platforms because they all use c++ or something, or... < 1412999674 641127 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: there was plenty of reason, and that's that the 32-bit development toolchain I had didn't actually work < 1412999682 479757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, it worked sometimes < 1412999692 577724 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would frequently fail in bizarre circumstances < 1412999696 622754 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_ : no what I mean is, if you're writing embedded platform code, yes then 16bit C totally makes sense < 1412999699 486458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :16-bit was a lot more stable back then < 1412999704 357656 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a marginal case < 1412999713 499160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to realise that 32-bit code was new and relatively untested, so most people used 16-bit < 1412999724 673438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I got to control the PC speaker, which was a Windows 1 feature that was deprecated < 1412999735 158525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but trying to play music via MIDI, the next-simplest method, was still way more complex < 1412999738 170802 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, the internal beeper thing? < 1412999743 751249 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for other, non embedded applications, there's no way 16 bit even exists anymore < 1412999744 142643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bicyclidine: yes < 1412999776 639404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm not sure if I could still run my old programs < 1412999782 564934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least one version of DNA Maze was Win16 API < 1412999794 210873 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dna? < 1412999811 457154 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like this is a good time to talk at length about methylation < 1412999820 641705 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a computer game that I used to work on, ages ago < 1412999834 337562 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so except for embedded platforms, you're now 100% guaranteed that int's will be at least 32 bits no matter what < 1412999841 831133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was originally for DOS, then I reworked the level select leading to a new major version < 1412999857 496696 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: is this desigend to troll people into finding counterexamples? because it's almost working on me :) < 1412999857 680271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it got ported to various other systems, such as Win16 and some Linux (I think SDL1) < 1412999873 657520 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I suspect you would just define "embedded platform" as "platform with 16-bit int", though, which isn't really entirely unreasonable.) < 1412999876 329453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you count games consoles as embedded platforms? < 1412999903 324785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: a nice working definition for "embedded platform" is "platform for which dynamic allocation would be an utterly crazy idea" < 1412999907 788930 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_ : ok what 16bit platform that isn't embedded could you possibly want to write for? < 1412999936 706239 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a bad definition and now i want to write malloc on my pic32 < 1412999946 699342 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: you're asking that in #esoteric? :p < 1412999948 804460 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the traditional examples were real mode DOS and win16 but those are long gone < 1412999949 123276 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably good practice, honestly < 1412999975 471069 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For such "embedded platform" (whatever youre definition will be) I don't program them in C anyways. < 1412999976 692393 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's always real mode boot loaders < 1412999991 521920 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BytePusher would have 24 bit int, maybe. < 1413000000 442381 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 8 bit platforms... you're going to write in assembly < 1413000002 568847 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Yes, although I suppose you could write them in assembly language instead of in C. < 1413000006 40709 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, I guess that's maybe not allowed < 1413000007 912130 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it should be! < 1413000027 41309 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, does it have to be 2^n * CHAR_BIT? suxk < 1413000032 651036 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose FreeDOS is also real mode, although it can run programs in protected mode too < 1413000034 676477 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_ : does it have a C compiler? < 1413000063 550457 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: it could < 1413000065 813335 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't tempt me to write one < 1413000066 788146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does FreeDOS ship its own DPMI extender? or do you have to provide one? < 1413000097 890655 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_ : until that happens, you're guarenteed 32 bit ints < 1413000106 68871 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1413000113 608807 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're really tempting me < 1413000121 550167 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also the question of platforms with 64 bit ints < 1413000141 847150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's compromise on 48 < 1413000145 816002 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know, although perhaps it ought to include such a thing. < 1413000159 155137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I know that for the NetHack TAS, I had to include a DPMI extender < 1413000174 151410 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't remember whether that's because FreeDOS doesn't have one, or because it didn't emulate correctly in JPC-RR < 1413000185 570944 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the answer is that we've stopped making those... basically they figured that 64bits were too large for most uses < 1413000223 525072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: supercomputers often have 64-bit ints < 1413000227 959734 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some DSPs have 32-bit chars < 1413000247 298939 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're basically making 64bit architectures to mix up 32bit data with 64bit pointers (arm64 has a whole bunch of instructions dedicated to mixes and conversions etc) < 1413000283 610484 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are also some VMs having bytes longer than 8-bits (such as 16-bits or 32-bits) < 1413000291 33608 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : you mean like word addressed DSPs? < 1413000297 317214 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: yes < 1413000300 817989 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1413000325 781615 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though afaik it's rare to run general purpose code on these < 1413000337 834704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: what do you mean by "general purpose code", though? < 1413000349 508407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an FFT is pretty general-purpose, and DSTs run those all the time < 1413000365 877400 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :really I think we should just have stdint.h and remove all of C's integer types. < 1413000393 403736 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe give the "least" versions shorter names, but maybe not since platform-specific overflow bugs are uuurgh. < 1413000396 25855 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or to define them in the other way around < 1413000410 1672 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : code that isn't purpose-written for that particular use? and that does all sorts of stdlib calls, std::, are designed for modern paged memory protected stuff, C++... < 1413000429 327746 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: every program is purpose-written for something or other, unless it's a general-use library < 1413000432 921300 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I'm pretty sure none of these DSPs have an MMU < 1413000436 968046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and many general-use libraries hardly touch stdlib < 1413000443 630424 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :consequently something like std::map would probably leak < 1413000502 623508 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude, you're the one bringing C++ into this. < 1413000528 602670 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the sound processing code I'm writing these days, runs on x86 of course, and I know very well that it has to be easy to run on ARM < 1413000540 983606 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that port has very high chances of happening < 1413000582 453880 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that I should perhaps not count on byte order because a port to POWER could still happen maybe (nintendo wii u etc) < 1413000652 167783 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it has to be ported to a word addressed DSP, then it's going to have all sorts of special limitations like no threading, no mmu or paging, very small ram, no fpu, etc... < 1413000675 493282 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and consequently it's going to have to be specially written more or less no matter what < 1413000693 589022 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's little point in keeping in mind that sort of platform when writing code < 1413000703 17817 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :look, there's a world of programming outside your very insular conception of it (which you call "general-purpose", I guess), and C is designed to cover a hell of a lot of that world. that's what it comes down to < 1413000748 656818 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code I write is C++, not C < 1413000769 799827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: sound-processing code is something that people are quite likely to want to run on a DSP, fwiw < 1413000794 610326 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : it can happen yes < 1413000804 488975 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: yes, and as I've been trying to point out the conversation was about C before you joined in and continued to be about C thereafter until you brought C++ into it < 1413000807 306395 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but IRL it involves making a hardware product, basically < 1413000832 594860 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no computer, cell phone or console platform where you can even write for the DSP < 1413000840 756049 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when there is one at all < 1413000843 218017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: ? < 1413000851 302683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you think people do DSP development? < 1413000868 643766 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not my line of work tbh < 1413000874 498634 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm not too familiar < 1413000899 178871 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: well, what you do is, you use an IDE, and use it to compile your files into executables, just like with any other IDE < 1413000905 186799 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1413000915 364989 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you have to be hooked into a devkit < 1413000919 184939 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1413000919 673785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you tell it to copy the executables onto the DSP, which is connected to the computer via a special programming device < 1413000921 174065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it runs them < 1413000932 874456 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes special programming device < 1413000936 81499 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :outboard gear < 1413000944 945418 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I mean when I say "hardware product" < 1413000957 467456 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: well given that the DSP isn't powerful enough to run an IDE itself… < 1413000992 982021 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if you're programming a DSP, you're obviously not making a product that is a win32 program < 1413001003 933537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: this is no different from, say, programming a cellphone < 1413001021 173856 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and more to the point, nothing prevents you from simply copying in code from elsewhere < 1413001047 526660 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :true but it's still a "special" platform < 1413001125 654714 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, does it even make sense to run C++ on that kind of DSP? < 1413001145 961899 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not sure if you've noticed, but nothing you can say will get any kind of acknowledgement that you're in the right here < 1413001165 430405 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1413001177 188490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I know, but I'm kind-of stressed in RL and taking on a pointless argument's a good way to relax < 1413001191 71257 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok fine you COULD want to port any piece of C/C++ code to word addressed architectures < 1413001217 747707 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or other similar architectures < 1413001223 679719 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in that special case your assumption that int is 32bits will break and you will cry < 1413001232 128271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about an argument on the topic of pointless topology < 1413001291 208041 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it topological spaces w/o points < 1413001291 680813 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine if you just used a type that wasn't int if you knew you needed 32 bits of range < 1413001293 321929 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: and if you'd just used int32_t or int_least32_t or long, everything would have been fine < 1413001295 499293 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, for instance, int32_t < 1413001296 497679 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1413001322 222057 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, at least it's a thing where you don't talk about the points? < 1413001325 95668 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : in that case I'd just search and replace "int" for "int32_t" < 1413001326 295694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a couple of days ago, I needed a type whose semantics was "a bitfield of 32 bits, addressed arithmetically" < 1413001329 25519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used unsigned long < 1413001331 768163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: haha seriously? < 1413001338 12319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you any idea how much that would break? < 1413001341 972927 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in you just talk about the lattice of open sets or something < 1413001345 372956 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : depends how large it is < 1413001351 671738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: a hint: pointers exist < 1413001376 793187 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : if the code is small then obviously I'll check each use < 1413001386 220827 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1413001386 799144 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine if you wrote code that wasn't broken, instead of trying to patch it up after the fact < 1413001392 93119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you'd be /more/ likely to s/int/int32_t/g if the codebase was large? < 1413001412 845267 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the codebase is large then it's more of a problem < 1413001435 309206 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then if the codebase is large I think it's very unlikely to be something you'd run on a DSP < 1413001467 651401 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not my area of expertise but AFAIK normally that sort of platform is a general purpose CPU + a DSP < 1413001484 526490 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most of the code runs on the CPU except the number crunching stuff of course < 1413001513 446737 :Sgeo_!~quassel@metro29st13.m.subnet.rcn.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1413001546 298089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: I've used a DSP once; in that situation, it was connected on the analog side to a custom-built RF→IF mixer and antenna (not superheterodyne, we used software for that); and on the digital side to a CPU running ucLinux (wasn't a Raspberry Pi, but probably would have been if they had been invented at the time, it was the same sort of thing) < 1413001570 901678 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :raspberry pis are big enough to just run normal linux < 1413001597 617371 :Sgeo!~quassel@metro29st13.m.subnet.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1413001601 517468 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : right. how much code ran on the DSP itself, as opposed to the rest of the system? (presumably an ARM?) < 1413001607 363488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: right, this system was also only just big enough < 1413001616 604173 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we had to uninstall ALSA to fit Python on there < 1413001635 631511 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(we were looking for packages that were part of the stock install but that we didn't need) < 1413001681 715728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: the DSP itself did AM and FM demodulation; the rest of the system did Morse Code unencoding and had a rudimentary UI < 1413001706 269742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although most of that system was soft realtime code to communicate with the DSP fast enough < 1413001753 781877 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, so most of that system ran on a cpu where int was 32bits and everything was byte addressed? :D < 1413001787 402221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on what you mean by "most" < 1413001810 508430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of that system was the RF→IF mixer and antenna < 1413001818 754643 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1413001822 141642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a 10-person team, only 2 of us worked on the CPU portion of it < 1413001826 626902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only part-time < 1413001866 757695 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: huh, python will run on uclinux? < 1413001869 680344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, we got two people building the power supply because they were dangerously incompetent, and that was a small enough part of the project that we hoped we'd be able to fix whatever they came up with within a few minutes < 1413001876 415019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: apparently so < 1413001886 294450 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I guess they care about portability to embedded systems, like some kind of weird C programmers < 1413001891 464643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, malloc() works just fine on uclinux, the most common thing you can't do is mmap() < 1413001898 148161 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and mmap() is relatively obscure < 1413002091 582869 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the DSP code written in? < 1413002098 372010 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :C? assembly? < 1413002116 888944 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C, except I kept looking at the generated asm, then tweaking the C until I got the output I wanted, because the compiler wasn't very good < 1413002124 533373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote an interrupt handler in asm, but that was just 8 bytes long < 1413002135 236085 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1413002166 711812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, 8 words < 1413002175 577694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of machine code; it was longer in asm, obviously) < 1413002201 652055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that DSP had a different word size for code than for data, and IIRC, neither was 8 < 1413002217 68298 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that was what I was going to ask < 1413002229 453805 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it had separate memory buses for code and data basically < 1413002300 843123 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you run my code over that kind of thing, it will break horribly, yes < 1413002305 739671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might have had 14-bit words for code, but that might have been a different system < 1413002308 4756 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't expect to see that day < 1413002327 487296 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it takes a lot of effort to write C or C++ code that breaks when code and data address spaces are separate < 1413002336 761835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't cast between void * and void (*)() for a reason < 1413002351 427638 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it even possible? < 1413002356 281284 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :without going outside the standard < 1413002403 368111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: there's no method that's guaranteed to work < 1413002415 574514 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, if you just write the cast, it's likely to work on all the compilers that are capable of supporting it < 1413002416 35073 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a lot of "general purpose architecture" code would break if you couldn't cast from void * to void (*)() < 1413002425 536037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: I don't < 1413002425 720516 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can do lots of things relying on UB :p < 1413002446 260933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: obviously it isn't possible without going outside the standard otherwise, because there are some pieces of hardware on which it's literally impossible < 1413002447 267727 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : hmm < 1413002451 239403 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh oh hey i have a question about code and data address spaces < 1413002458 338183 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think POSIX guarantees (void *) and (void (*)()) are intercastable < 1413002460 728134 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there harvard architecture machines where you can't jump to data memory < 1413002472 262030 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i assumed that wouldn't work, but apparently it does for the particular microcontrollers class uses < 1413002498 450967 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bicyclidine : does it have a separate memory bus for code? < 1413002516 921569 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it goes through the mmu < 1413002528 84861 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which... now i'm wondering how that works bus-wise, hm < 1413002528 999663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bicyclidine: jumping to data wouldn't work on most of the microcontrollers I've used < 1413002543 938386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also doesn't even work on most modern computers with modern operating systems < 1413002551 434909 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't knew there were microcontrollers with MMUs < 1413002553 178907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, not unless you specifically tell the MMU that that's what you're planning to do < 1413002555 580905 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should actually try it instead of just asking < 1413002605 774117 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?product=PIC32MX460F512L is it < 1413002628 462736 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i don't think that mentions the mmu. well, you could always check the thousand pages of manual < 1413002655 397514 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microchip manuals are fun < 1413002667 680573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how most systems have UB, and things you shouldn't do in case they break in future? < 1413002686 914293 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microchip lets you know what happens if you do them anyway, and even give advice on it < 1413002708 800491 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see, i think i remember reading from some of the pseudoregisters being undefined < 1413002709 831220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this register's designed for programming the UART, but you can just use it for an extra byte of storage if the UART isn't active" < 1413002721 42196 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah pretty much < 1413002740 352633 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bicyclidine : it's a MIPS < 1413002746 640385 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is a mips < 1413002749 929514 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, embedded mips < 1413002758 106763 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that related to mmus < 1413002774 738461 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be kind of neat, actually, you could use the io ports for special atomically partiallyrewritable storage < 1413002787 23023 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a whole, like, 72 bits or something. homey < 1413002836 417985 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I guess it makes sense that jumping to data would probably work < 1413002852 22247 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand the relevance < 1413002876 317112 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a larger architecture and more general purpose? < 1413002884 114921 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1413002887 356418 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i literally don't know < 1413002905 401376 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like it's a small version of a general purpose CPU < 1413003254 324453 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :with many nice things like a single cycle multiply :D < 1413003315 261039 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i guess you can save cycles by doing that and then the multiply-add things etc before putting it back into core regs, huh < 1413003463 943141 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :32k ram < 1413003975 589029 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: a single cycle multiply at what clock speed? < 1413004004 441013 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :80 MHz max on this gizmo < 1413004053 482238 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's faster than a pentium < 1413004107 427059 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for integer multiply, anyways < 1413005052 682709 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :most things these days are faster than a pentium :P < 1413005088 85526 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except when they're much more energy efficient or something) < 1413005406 802612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL generates single cycle multiplies by default < 1413005411 873643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can end up using a lot of silicon if you don't pay attention < 1413005756 946949 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just with the * operator& < 1413005757 823515 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1413005928 676914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1413005988 254512 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :really intrigued about vhdl (and verilog) < 1413006130 643627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're basically the same language with different syntax, at this point < 1413006136 22883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they each stole each others' features < 1413006150 364416 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1413006176 699222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic difference is that VHDL requires you to declare everything very precisely (and often multiple times), whereas Verilog ignores all that nonsense and often doesn't complain about typos as a result < 1413006215 668969 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :learning a bit of verilog atm (mostly because it's more C++ like) < 1413006235 167620 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I have no way to simulate code so it's all pie in the sky anyways < 1413006270 145375 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? simulators are pretty easily obtainable < 1413006281 587156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHDL is the one I use for VHDL; I hear Icarus is pretty good for Verilog < 1413006309 397199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and both of them are in the Ubuntu repositories as of right now (ghdl, iverilog) < 1413006340 967016 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks up icarus < 1413006351 626160 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, uses cygwin :/ < 1413006356 866873 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :better than nothing tho :D < 1413006434 409873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, it actually hadn't crossed my mind that someone doing development might be using Windows < 1413006443 8896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not impossible, just unexpected < 1413006465 963000 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do DSP code for pro audio guys < 1413006474 445350 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's 99.99% win32 and mac osx < 1413006499 166177 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1413006523 73127 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least one person I know finds Windows development so painful that they do it on Linux anyway ;-) < 1413006542 82315 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like IDEs tbh < 1413006547 224440 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as specifically msvc < 1413006570 241306 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know some guys like doing everything from the console and with strange text editors like vim < 1413006574 414798 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not for me < 1413006595 695086 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :When working on Linux I do use vim. < 1413006602 205397 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I never got into the unix culture < 1413006622 289909 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't appeal to me < 1413007929 918152 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, to me the only appeal of the console is that it cuts down on development time for small tool applications (that don't need a GUI) and that it permits batch scripting < 1413007956 906474 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for other things, there's no point to it < 1413007975 226520 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I happen to like it, especially in UNIX systems < 1413008025 558367 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, for me, it's always better to just use the OS's file management < 1413008059 48425 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you want to make a mass change? < 1413008072 565670 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that falls under batch scripting < 1413008077 293741 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it helps to type fast < 1413008080 774438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something as simple as "move all the files with the extension .nh4ct into another directory" is awkward (but possible) to do via the GUI < 1413008091 119590 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyone who should use a computer should learn to type fast. < 1413008099 681426 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason I find CLI more useful is that these operations come up all the time < 1413008114 408060 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : I'd change file odering to sort files by extension, then select all of them, then copy/paste/move < 1413008115 462299 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are even prorgams that combine GUI and CLI if you like that. < 1413008139 839066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: right, that's what I meant by the "possible" < 1413008155 432954 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd still rather do that than use the console < 1413008156 381014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me, it seems a little insane that you have to mess with persistent settings like file ordering in order to do a simple task like that < 1413008178 499326 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means navigating though a whole bunch of folders by pure text < 1413008206 831120 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then more or less blindly typing down the whole destination path in the copy command < 1413008233 118296 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab speeds up all the typing but I'd still rather use the file manager < 1413008233 943022 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example you could even have a terminal emulator, that allow escape codes and keyboard commands you can bring up a menu of the files and then you can click on them to select which ones you want, while is still as command-line normally. Even such thing as with mouse highlight and then middle-button to paste it, is another thing to do < 1413008248 121913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: normally I can type the name of a folder faster than I can find it in a GUI file manager < 1413008251 474886 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : file ordering is not a persistent setting < 1413008252 566700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :using tab-complete < 1413008259 458017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it persists on Windows, I think < 1413008269 159016 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yeah I guess it does persist < 1413008272 403219 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is enough room on the screen, the tab completion can be in another window too to display the stuff, you can then continue typing, use tab, and/or to click on the files you want. < 1413008274 178623 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's meant to be dynamic < 1413008285 593792 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you're just changing how they are displayed < 1413008310 209115 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I navigate by typing the first letter of folders etc < 1413008318 995008 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which comes out about as fast as tab-complete < 1413008342 128622 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other thing is, I like seeing the files I'm manipulating < 1413008400 986274 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would be your opinion of these of my ideas that you can combine with CLI and GUI that can be used together? < 1413008475 959699 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd add CLI features to a GUI based file explorer, basically < 1413008528 778822 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I myself would prefer to do it the other way around; add escape codes into a terminal emulator to allow the shell to open windows for file manager at the same time < 1413008616 471083 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I always want to see the full file list for the current folder < 1413008624 568133 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never want to not-see it < 1413008653 392047 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well OK, although I tend to work differently, I suppose. < 1413008668 757452 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I want to keyboard navigate through that full file list < 1413008800 645403 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the user navigates to a folder. why would you not want to display that folder's contents? < 1413008814 81350 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose in case it doesn't fit on the screen? < 1413008830 195788 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you can display a scroll bar? < 1413008844 735358 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I think in bash if you push tab it will display the file list anyways if you push tab twice. < 1413008863 172926 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to have to push tab twice < 1413008873 882454 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want it to do it without having to ask for it < 1413009020 292049 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I navigate to a folder, I want to do something with one of the files (or subfolders inside it) < 1413009050 630503 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the files are displayed on screen, then this is easy < 1413009584 987775 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like how the gimp doesn't have a rectangle tool < 1413009601 670184 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're supposed to make a rectangular selection and then fill it < 1413009611 238061 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does work and gets the job done < 1413009694 273556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux distros should start installing KolourPaint by default (basically an MS Paint clone), because it's what many people actually want when they think of an image editor < 1413009700 442870 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's needlessly laborious < 1413009729 790557 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the gimp is not that far from what I need (and already use) < 1413009736 932051 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has some design mistakes < 1413009886 917630 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depending on what things are wrong, they could be fixed. You could submit a bug report and/or patches and/or add-on files that would do the things you wanted. < 1413009932 33351 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :life is too short for that < 1413009945 870270 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :life's too short to argue on IRC for hours < 1413009952 354848 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha touché < 1413010012 458855 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there is a script to do shape drawing in the gimp < 1413010151 887469 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, by now the design mistakes are probably embedded deep into the gimp so I have no idea if they are fixable anyways < 1413010178 611753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK the problem that they have most issues fixing due to embedded design issues is to do with color representation < 1413010191 974880 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1413010204 502943 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamut stuff? < 1413010323 98490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1413010351 832805 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if you're doing printing that's a problem yes < 1413010398 589528 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though if you're printing I'm kindof expecting they'd be using some other program < 1413010535 867387 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I guess if you're dealing with RAW photograpy gamut stuff, that does have some issues < 1413010711 683343 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least for GUI design they shouldn't have problems :D (just disable all color management) < 1413010748 996774 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about gamma? < 1413010793 24846 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :good question < 1413010813 704504 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one way is to keep gamma as is < 1413010820 321071 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and let the designer eyeball it < 1413010924 169584 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :your color mixes will be kinda strange but that's an acceptable compromise < 1413010973 296086 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :another way is to adjust the effects¸ < 1413011020 832524 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like apply gamma adjustment, resample picture, apply inverse gamma adjustment < 1413011045 30144 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, then your resample is not a resample anymore, it's a gamma-adjusted-resample < 1413011055 717783 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has to be applied across the board < 1413011091 735223 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik sometimes photoshop works like this (depending on version and color settings and whatnote) < 1413011117 357285 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but corel photopaint doesn't (you're working with straight RGB, it only color manages CYMK) < 1413011428 852017 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you don't want it to do something like apply a color curve when exporting < 1413011450 325452 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you tweak your look to look good and then it exports something else < 1413011452 327457 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you tried using ImageMagick? < 1413011452 986822 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not good < 1413011469 508911 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : no? < 1413011625 11001 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks up < 1413011729 527593 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't look very interesting to me tbh < 1413011821 999892 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the value in a tool like photoshop or corel photopaint is doing a lot of manipulations and seeing what you're doing < 1413011866 250204 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means that to develop a program to do this, you need a massive development effort to make a very tight GUI¨ < 1413011901 309498 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see the appeal of manipulating graphics from the command line (except for batch manipulations) < 1413012030 987734 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really depends on what you're doing < 1413012045 75588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one advantage of treating everything as batch is that it's easy to reproduce, although a GUI could do that too < 1413012055 26734 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be nice if a GUI made a CLI translation of everything you did in it and saved it in a logfile < 1413012058 445007 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, this is why layers exist < 1413012071 751025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are plenty of other good reasons why layers exist < 1413012129 358147 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound processing is already there and picture editing is moving towards there fast as well < 1413012148 530564 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :with more and more picture filters that can be done by layers < 1413012330 363484 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if you do audio, you don't do a script that applies your whole stack of processing... what you do is that you add processing plugins one by one into your audio tracks... pretty much just as powerful but you don't have to edit any script < 1413012381 709640 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there are different programs to do audio; some use scripts and stuff < 1413012396 958694 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I happen to believe Csound is pretty good < 1413012429 824261 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anybody done orchestral arrangement in csound? < 1413012437 647545 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There are a lot of other people who use Csound too, although it isn't the most popular software at all) < 1413012459 879326 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: I believe so. I didn't look at all the stuff done in Csound, so I don't know, but I know a lot of things are done in Csound. < 1413012508 205536 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have done "Joy to the World" in Csound and using the PADsynth algorithm (I have written a Csound plugin to do PADsynth). < 1413012620 678213 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not an orchestral arrangement < 1413012641 707570 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, it isn't. < 1413012806 739924 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I know csound is powerful on paper... but in practice you can't hear what you're doing < 1413012864 354748 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a lot of use of Csound. Also, some people like to write music on paper, too. < 1413012886 34336 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :missing information card games are my favorite card games, i guess this is how i know i'm a nerd < 1413012915 687818 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bicyclidine: Can you be more specific what card games? I don't know a card game called "missing information". < 1413012965 400949 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :card games where the explicit goal is uncovering missing information < 1413012968 401750 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like mao or eleusis < 1413012992 376793 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know Eleusis < 1413013042 715214 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you mightr < 1413013292 783967 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : what I say is that there are programs that are just as powerful as csound, but much easier to use < 1413013386 4510 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Maybe to you they are easier. < 1413013438 3935 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to see what I do < 1413013440 949407 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hear what I do < 1413013512 894928 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not some pie in the sky system that can in theory do everything in the world but you have to guess exactly the right settings and input them in a lengthy text form < 1413013550 632054 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They won't be very good until one section is finished anyways. (And anyways, a few composers do not even know how to hear what they are doing!!!) < 1413013567 551238 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Well, there are many programs, so you can use the ones you like. (Even more than one, if you like.) < 1413013614 833176 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for a whole section, you don't just roll it out blindly < 1413013622 523932 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you put down some chords < 1413013631 368664 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :check if they fit in the mix < 1413013635 159897 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they sound good < 1413013641 747064 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can even use Csound with most other programs: Csound can be connected to other programs through MIDI, OSC, VST, LADSPA, plain audio formats, plain text, and a few more.) < 1413013674 276468 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :only one that makes sense is VST < 1413013694 882841 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other ones are mostly useless < 1413013740 693113 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also in all of these cases, it goes both ways: MIDI can be input and output, VST can be as a host or as a plugin, etc. < 1413013744 707347 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely because VST is designed around hearing what you're doing as you do it < 1413013772 77247 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point of VST is that you can use a program that has a very good piano roll < 1413013789 281952 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :your sequencer deals with that, your VST only does synthesis < 1413013790 681789 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Csound does actually support FLTK for a GUI as well, if you want a GUI; there are also several other GUIs for Csound, and you can also use joystick, Wii remotes, and other input devices with Csound. < 1413013812 380408 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple GUIs is almost always a design mistake < 1413013831 499325 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much better to have only one very good gui < 1413013842 273776 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wii remotes are a toy < 1413013863 288449 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for joystick... I have a MIDI controller for this < 1413013886 562725 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Csound can use MIDI too, so you can use that. < 1413013925 171762 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it takes MIDI, why does it have all the other crap? < 1413013970 145329 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are just distractions that make it less likely that the MIDI is correctly implemented < 1413013972 154501 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one thing, you may be using it to modify other sounds rather than only to synthesize new ones. < 1413013998 186675 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also some programs use other formats, too. < 1413014035 370914 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only reasonably well established protocol is MIDI < 1413014044 838000 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and VST automation < 1413014082 542680 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The standard score format in Csound seems to highly resemble tracker formats. Some people use it, although other people prefer others; I didn't find any of the existing ones suitable so I wrote CsoundMML. < 1413014112 751577 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: I think MIDI was not as common when Csound was first made, and VST didn't exist yet. (Also, if you are on Linux, you might want to use LADSPA.) < 1413014112 942356 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that's my point < 1413014128 21041 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you implemented CsoundMML < 1413014138 510019 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally you should not do this < 1413014154 980514 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I like to do it. < 1413014163 318882 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :its note input system should be good enough in first place < 1413014185 701732 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah csound is early, which leads to this kind of problem < 1413014187 636955 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing it that way might restrict it too much though. < 1413014207 767131 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it restricts it to the good options only, that's GOOD < 1413014209 733085 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why it helps to generate it using external methods too. < 1413014236 361090 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing is you might not always want to write 12-TET, for example. < 1413014254 160363 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :99.99% of the time you DO want to write in 12-TET < 1413014255 917682 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or there may be more controls than are possible in MIDI. < 1413014261 505441 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're arab < 1413014280 55536 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people like to experiment with different scales too though < 1413014290 567003 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's fun yes < 1413014294 709781 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also mostly useless < 1413014338 651913 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for western music you're going to do a lot of layering < 1413014340 540694 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you do not like Csound, then you do not have to use it. < 1413014356 37006 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that blows up pretty much any other intonation system than 12-TET < 1413014375 598048 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for a few close relatives to 12-TET like well-temperament < 1413014431 453513 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe meantone and pythagorean temperament (and even then good look making it sound better than 12-TET) < 1413014470 749516 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If used correctly they do sound better. (I do not know how to use them correctly, though.) < 1413014482 770711 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1413014504 84360 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least with complex waveforms; I have tried this with some experimenting. < 1413014529 308399 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :your potential gain is marginal < 1413014542 37741 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :A pure sine wave is too pure with just intonation < 1413014547 516841 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you can have more static 3rds < 1413014560 64616 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... that's a lot of work for not much gain < 1413014597 981401 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically adjust every major 3rd in your song down if used in harmony, and up if it's used melodically < 1413014729 288122 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact they did test this < 1413014743 575022 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :asked a bunch of musicians to tune major 3rds by ear < 1413014759 580329 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the average major 3rd was 395 cents < 1413014777 9856 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those things are interesting to know. < 1413014842 414224 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words a halfway compromise between the 5/4 major third, and the 81/64 major third (two stacked tones) < 1413014864 175323 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference with our 400 cents major third is very slim < 1413014934 602582 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you could design a well temperament so that the major 3rd from C to E is 395 cents < 1413014943 672041 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory it would be an improvement < 1413014952 725951 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice nobody would notice < 1413015006 553149 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I am not doing chords, I can even experiment with alternative temperament just by using QBASIC. < 1413015014 954524 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tuning error on a typical note from a guy playing a violin or wind instrument in an orchestra can easily reach 5 or 10 cents < 1413015030 949304 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's already way more < 1413015056 749661 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I suppose it is; I haven't paid a lot of attention < 1413015090 852987 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :life is too short to concentrate on features that don't matter < 1413015102 763970 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternative temperaments is one of these features < 1413015184 460250 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the problem with stuff like csound < 1413015206 44121 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can't put on their pants and decide what matters, they gotta try to do everything < 1413015248 870300 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: It doesn't actually have that feature built-in; it is a consequence of the implementation that it allows that by defining custom tables and stuff. < 1413015280 455960 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a Kawai electric piano. It allow to set seven different temperaments; by default it is equal temperament with a tuning curve. I find that when a non-piano sound is selected, it seem to work better if tuning curve is turned off, but is better turned on for piano sound. I read about piano tuning in Wikipedia so I can guess how this is working and why it is the case. < 1413015408 167184 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I like Csound for music, ImageMagick for pictures, METAFONT for drawing, and Plain TeX for typesetting. You don't have to use it, if you do not like it! < 1413015650 58760 :impomatic_!~digital_w@87.113.116.210 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413016237 391894 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com QUIT :Quit: Pics or it didn't happen < 1413016667 942328 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could the "dead reckoning" rule in chess ever make some extremely stupid move to be very good in one situation where you are in severe time trouble? < 1413016714 297115 :MoALTz!~no@user-5-173-18-183.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1413016740 254919 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1413017723 639040 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess, based on this problem: http://anselan.com/tutorial.html ... w with a rook on a1 could sacrifice it on a8 instead of making a waiting move and checkmate afterwards. but figuring that out will probably take longer than actually mating. < 1413017739 878857 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there's a less stupid way < 1413017878 161410 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :More realisitically take a more complicated won endgame, the bishop+knight perhaps < 1413017932 244692 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it also depends on what you mean by "extremely stupid") < 1413018363 958855 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@resnet-v492-wless-gw.net.wsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1413018453 557688 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@resnet-v492-wless-gw.net.wsu.edu QUIT :Client Quit < 1413018542 803468 :brandonson!~SingingBo@d50-98-172-234.bchsia.telus.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev < 1413018575 853348 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; "extremely stupid" was based on a comment by brother made when I told him about the "dead reckoning rule" and when he said it is useless, I thought about if it might be useful in severe time trouble. < 1413018604 68566 :brandonson!~SingingBo@d50-98-172-234.bchsia.telus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413018609 61401 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I was thinking that you would figure it out ahead of time, therefore it doesn't matter if figuring it out takes longer, if you have already figured it out. < 1413018663 19661 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the "complicated endgame" usecase is a good one, though common sense. It means, however, that you have to somehow force your opponent to capture a piece rather than ambling around randomly until your time runs out. < 1413018733 699152 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though perhaps the opponent will capture out of habit...) < 1413018757 338309 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Look here, that capture was stupid. I was losing on time, but now it's a draw." < 1413018775 614978 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then maybe it also depend how much time trouble your opponent is having too. < 1413018984 309755 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1413019187 783117 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1413019516 607646 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan re: "how did I miss that" - when I first did that problem I wasn't aware that the scan* functions are in the Prelude. :browse Prelude turned out to be helpful. < 1413019516 798684 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1413019568 106344 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :moin < 1413019581 18825 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan (which is rather strange: I like those functions a lot) < 1413019581 172049 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1413019594 405883 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, speaking of lambdas, my wife made me a thing: https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/520864743817744384 < 1413019631 21975 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :;; < 1413019631 175353 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :;; Calculate cummulative sum < 1413019631 175520 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :;; R0 - Input Buffer < 1413019631 175611 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :;; R1 - Output Buffer < 1413019631 175700 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :;; R2 - Length < 1413019633 555330 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :;; < 1413019636 26602 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :> cum-sum PSH S R ; Save return address < 1413019637 315266 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:57: parse error on input ‘;’ < 1413019638 599389 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : XOR R4 R4 ; R4 := 0 < 1413019641 29445 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :> cum-sum-rep < 1413019642 321173 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: ‘cum’ < 1413019642 474548 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Perhaps you meant one of these: < 1413019642 474683 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : ‘sum’ (imported from Data.List), < 1413019642 474825 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : ‘F.sum’ (imported from Data.Foldable)Not in scope: ‘rep’ < 1413019642 474913 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Perhaps you meant one of these: < 1413019643 547546 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : LDW R3 R0 ; Load element from Input < 1413019646 35942 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : ADD R4 R3 ; R4 := elem < 1413019648 558089 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : STW R1 R4 ; Store it to Output < 1413019651 28175 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : ADD R0 4 ; Inc Input Ptr < 1413019653 594928 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : ADD R1 4 ; Inc Output Ptr < 1413019656 42033 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : SUB R2 1 ; Dec Length < 1413019657 622256 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: AAAAARGH < 1413019658 573374 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : JNZ @cum-sum-rep ; Not Zero? Jump Back < 1413019661 31231 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1413019663 558307 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1413019666 36408 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf does putty auto paste on right click < 1413019668 561792 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted right-click copy link < 1413019692 238137 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a serious privacy issue < 1413019692 963747 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, why won't twitter display images without javascript... < 1413019721 611294 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does. < 1413019724 967821 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: You can change those setting in PuTTY < 1413019732 502849 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have noscript but can still see it < 1413019738 553678 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1413019753 872532 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, sorry. I have a somewhat aggressive adblock rule... < 1413019765 488619 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: thanks < 1413019782 126430 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you clicking in a tty < 1413019796 86887 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: you aren't? < 1413019807 593041 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a graphical window < 1413019823 602905 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: how do you ever copy text from or to a terminal? < 1413019850 260996 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep usually works. < 1413020517 397701 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jskjarjkogxodgcv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1413020602 968120 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1413020670 634476 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : imm = (shiftL b3 16) .|. (shiftL b2 8) .|. b1 < 1413020674 782737 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is this infinite type < 1413020731 486932 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it is, by itself < 1413020735 591202 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. nvm. < 1413020748 80087 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :b3 wasn't 'a' < 1413020750 438464 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but [a] < 1413020755 695883 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :tsk < 1413020770 969782 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah rats < 1413020780 825821 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :b3,b2,b1 are Word8 < 1413020785 354094 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but imm is supposed to be Word32 < 1413020801 879344 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes Haskell infer that b3,b2,b1 must be Word32 as well < 1413020812 953404 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because .|. is a -> a -> a) < 1413020814 704934 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1413020820 744592 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to promote b3,b2,b1 to Word32 first < 1413020822 112625 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1413020856 497716 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 8 :: Word8 < 1413020857 895665 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 8 < 1413020872 648002 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (fromIntegral (8 :: Word8)) :: Int < 1413020873 961075 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 8 < 1413020878 186131 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (fromIntegral (8 :: Word8)) :: Word32 < 1413020879 566155 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 8 < 1413020881 161914 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1413020921 930259 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1413020925 204037 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1413021015 312879 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4,DecodedInstruction {opCode = *** Exception: <> < 1413021016 842816 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1413021018 995418 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413021021 731527 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello wizards < 1413021033 654483 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally no more work 'til march < 1413021039 261721 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :More time for things, woo < 1413021078 891788 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no loop in my program < 1413021079 728034 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1413021104 311858 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully I can finish some eso project < 1413021279 357115 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1413021295 82891 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: watch out for reused identifiers < 1413021333 333334 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages- < 1413021333 487062 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e said 30m 16s ago: re: "how did I miss that" - when I first did that problem I wasn't aware that the scan* functions are in the Prelude. :browse Prelude turned out to be helpful. < 1413021333 487216 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e said 29m 12s ago: (which is rather strange: I like those functions a lot) < 1413021358 993662 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it wasn't the scanl that i missed; i used that in my initial version too < 1413021476 386379 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I was just sharing my own "how did I miss that" moment. < 1413021485 15691 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1413021722 164587 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! c printf("hi"); < 1413021723 207511 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1413021745 198171 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1413021808 893053 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1413021821 870859 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy long logs today < 1413021825 336506 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> decode [230, 121] < 1413021826 512153 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2,DecodedInstruction {opCode = 38, dst = 7, src = RegisterOperand 9}) < 1413021827 945977 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat < 1413022012 138868 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw < 1413022024 528341 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: You mean HashMap.Lazy from unorderdered-containers? < 1413022028 527932 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :or HashMap.Strict < 1413022040 806909 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the old hashmap package? < 1413022624 811014 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codepad.org/jQhCm4lj <- I'll do it like that for now < 1413022835 456627 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh speaking of golf, what do you have against alphanumeric characters? (see "Count the Overlap") < 1413022892 459895 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(more seriously we must have wildly different programs) < 1413022903 986962 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle FilePath -> [Word8] < 1413022906 130942 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Monad.Trans.Error listMsg :: ErrorList a => String -> [a] < 1413022906 284294 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude error :: [Char] -> a < 1413022906 284468 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] < 1413022921 311252 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah. "error" < 1413022925 219076 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1413022926 965861 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :this search... < 1413022928 441387 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :so accurate < 1413022935 476869 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn you beat me there too? :( < 1413022938 996190 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ByteString -> [Word8] should be possible though < 1413022944 800859 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's FileIO with ByteString < 1413022968 466879 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sorry, I was catching up from 267 characters and momentum carried me over the target < 1413023047 906661 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I couldn't have done it without you. < 1413023085 58100 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1413023158 335554 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose we must be using different algorithms. and i thought i was so clever. < 1413023193 896642 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _did_ have another idea which i didn't pursue < 1413023209 308241 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe you've managed to get parsing actually short < 1413023242 799493 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not really short. but at least I managed to make some use of the interspersed labels. < 1413023256 316132 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh f... < 1413023331 137574 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that would totally mess up the way i'm doing it < 1413023459 178998 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i'm basically calling map read.words before doing anything else < 1413023532 371159 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would attribute 50% of the program to parsing. < 1413023570 808450 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that yeah < 1413023994 933688 :frangeskino90!~textual@host223-185-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1413024051 862863 :frangeskino90!~textual@host223-185-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it PART #esoteric :"Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com" < 1413025187 391061 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.79.159 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413026566 127406 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:Polyglot14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40598&oldid=40597 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+54) 10unsigned < 1413026635 921821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1413026641 992856 :callforjudgement!~ais523@147.188.254.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413026649 893204 :callforjudgement!~ais523@147.188.254.149 QUIT :Changing host < 1413026650 46584 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413027049 718228 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok that triangular number thing is so trivial there's no point even adding to the (probably identical) haskell solution heap < 1413027179 597560 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, just for fun i'll make one that has a different statistics < 1413027287 509802 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, infix. right < 1413027342 629094 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that makes 4 different solutions, hmm. < 1413027365 902630 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i think so < 1413027381 143200 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :prefix vs. infix, scanl1 vs. scanl < 1413027389 130719 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1413028314 50214 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so apparently, bridge bidding conventions have official classifications; the stupider the convention, the higher-level you have to be before it isn't banned < 1413028344 170445 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the very stupidest conventions, like "pass" meaning that you have a strong hand, are called Highly Unusual Methods < 1413028432 677817 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such conventions are apparently only allowed at the Bermuda Bowl and Venice Cup, and using them causes you to forfeit choice of seats < 1413028472 747471 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you have to tell the opponent what the conventions are, but that seems to be a general rule < 1413028486 350007 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(now I wonder how often people try to use conventions that stupid in high-level tournaments) < 1413028510 973546 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :contract bridge reminds me of my Rubicon puzzles, they're both about trying to communicate a range of information under awkward limiting circumstances < 1413028639 116937 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :winghci is irritatingly flaky whenever you try to run a program which takes input :( < 1413028700 21817 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there seems to be no way to give an EOF, you have to interrupt to get out of it, and sometimes it doesn't get back into a usable state afterwards.) < 1413028752 728110 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :newline-controlZ-newline is the standard Windows way to EOF; I'm assuming that that doesn't work? < 1413028757 170997 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was having some performance issues this morning and discovered that for some reason I still had a GHC process running, eating a full CPU core doing absolutely nothing. Still don't know what happened. < 1413028772 640610 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't. it works in ghci on console, but not in winghci. < 1413029073 856722 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :even in the ghci console, you cannot use getContents twice, it doesn't reset stdin. < 1413029658 778895 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1413029922 469315 :MoALTz!~no@user-5-173-18-183.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1413031012 914151 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1413033817 352420 :AndoDaan_!~Daanando@188.188.95.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413033921 313257 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.79.159 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1413036219 835026 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1413037532 990420 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :callforjudgement: How deliciously CP/M. < 1413037554 63032 :LordCreepity!~davis@cpe-74-131-10-190.swo.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew. < 1413037962 54643 :Sgeo!~quassel@metro29st13.m.subnet.rcn.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1413038217 764513 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :callforjudgement: the regulation of bridge conventions is a large part of what leads me to conclude that the tournament organization and structure is completely broken < 1413038431 771821 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: right, the problem is that in essence, the bidding phase of Bridge is a game about coming to an agreement about hidden data given highly limited bandwidth < 1413038451 14346 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to facilitate that, you can benefit from what your opponents are saying, which means that you have to recognise what it is < 1413038466 672913 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus creating a kind-of awkward recursive loop < 1413038518 467740 :mahem1__!~argon@199.172.242.118 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1413039454 615788 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You didn't notice that the cum-sum code disrespects length 0 ;) < 1413039464 485793 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've added a CPY R2 R2; JIZ @cum-sum-end < 1413039522 774169 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is the same as CMP R2 0; JEQ @cum-sum-end) < 1413039785 367544 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-16-154.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1413039821 718762 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-16-154.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1413039821 872340 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1413039885 58931 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1413040475 571387 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1413040569 669274 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh another int-nick on #haskell, this will be fun... < 1413040580 260142 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1413040649 341223 :AndoDaan_!~Daanando@188.188.95.161 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1413040784 251832 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1413040968 654341 :MoALTz!~no@user-5-173-18-183.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1413041067 973773 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1413041077 927031 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413041086 238432 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1413041187 299038 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1413041331 862185 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1413042259 30498 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1413042704 284221 :password2_!~password@105.233.36.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413042746 31205 :password2_!~password@105.233.36.245 NICK :password2 < 1413044227 734844 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zcqsglrtqdeqyhlu JOIN :#esoteric < 1413044601 227576 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1413045497 883077 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but I shaved that Z80 code from 48 to 40 bytes. < 1413045834 513599 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413046069 332495 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there Evillious Chronicles fans here? I don't know where to get started. I seem to be watching in a wierd order < 1413047140 392936 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: I mean HashMap.Strict actually < 1413047524 291865 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1413048170 297582 :dianne!~hianne@unaffiliated/dianne QUIT :Quit: brbanne < 1413048200 115739 :dianne!~hianne@unaffiliated/dianne JOIN :#esoteric < 1413049107 994336 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413049109 232176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1413049118 287569 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1413049180 491148 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1413049347 351616 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1413049670 207127 :tlvb!~Leo@46.195.24.21 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413050426 36747 :Hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1413052560 521800 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq_uptime < 1413052560 714337 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :9d 23h 37m 35s < 1413052564 343900 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay. still there < 1413052575 149479 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rlisp (0) < 1413052575 686166 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : (line 1, column 2): < 1413052580 961091 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rlisp ($0) < 1413052581 114548 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : (line 1, column 2): < 1413052586 339557 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rlisp (add $0 $0) < 1413052586 523500 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : Value 0 < 1413053121 246850 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rlisp (if== $0 0 (if> 0 $0 (add $0 $0) ($0)) (r 10)) < 1413053121 448128 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : (line 1, column 15): < 1413053123 491143 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh < 1413053148 395416 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :? you're calling $0? < 1413053207 987771 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rlisp (if== $0 0 (r 1 10) (if== $1 0 0 (add $1 (r 1 $1)))) < 1413053213 133256 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ain't nobody got time fo' that! < 1413053221 224796 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rlisp (if== $0 0 (r 1 10) (if== $1 0 0 (add $1 (r 1 (sub $1 1))))) < 1413053221 378213 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : Value 55 < 1413053228 945155 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rlisp (if== $0 0 (r 1 100) (if== $1 0 0 (add $1 (r 1 (sub $1 1))))) < 1413053229 98503 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : Value 5050 < 1413053230 340609 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is rlisp < 1413053237 508690 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be rlisp golfing! < 1413053261 67465 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: It's a LISP < 1413053264 11405 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :of some sort. < 1413053269 409349 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :inferior to maclisp < 1413053390 932937 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I'd start from original sin story (starting from "Project 'Ma'"), then go through the seven deadly sins (with story of the evil in the middle). after that progress to stuff like chrono story < 1413053473 473052 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: It's Recursive-LISP < 1413053478 767823 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you only have recursion < 1413053482 569568 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :where r is the recursion operator < 1413053496 142398 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, esolang < 1413053520 591731 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on wiki? < 1413053534 960429 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :...just heard people cheering after the Visual/Musical Sorting Algorithms vid < 1413053830 128876 :Hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! < 1413054112 855335 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: no < 1413054122 995847 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rlisp (LEN (_+ (: 9 #) (: 8 #))) < 1413054123 174791 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : (line 1, column 2): < 1413054126 771202 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should update it < 1413054137 427308 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> run "(LEN (_+ (: 9 #) (: 8 #)))" < 1413054138 138305 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Value 2 < 1413054143 300515 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :_+ is cnat : is cons < 1413054147 298414 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and # is an empty list < 1413054222 182979 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does |cnat| mean? < 1413054293 316426 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ++ in Haskell terms < 1413054297 89844 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if== $0 0 (r 1 1 10) (if== $1 $2 # (: $1 (r 1 (add $1 1) $2)))) < 1413054300 162717 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you mean concat < 1413054311 192263 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :^- that would be a range function (1..10) < 1413054340 810944 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or append < 1413054353 166115 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :append, sorry, not concat < 1413054455 79043 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :concat is like fold apparen < 1413054456 836402 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1413054459 311020 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fold append < 1413054473 726549 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413054618 368004 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1413055078 523591 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: Ah. Yeah, I kind of went really out of order. Watched all the Seven Deadly Sins, saw the Clockwork Lullaby series (incl. Chrono Story), have yet to see Original Sin or the full Story of Evil < 1413055117 989093 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'm glad I'm not the only fan < 1413055124 87456 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That I know) < 1413055247 937872 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1413055254 766495 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ordered text permutations is boring < 1413055258 32371 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not even permutation < 1413055269 499779 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1413055282 108616 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Do you use JL[? < 1413055307 875747 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :because JL[ == sa < 1413055357 282501 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually sa == ^^L[ == JL[ < 1413055490 871771 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :also jj != jjjj < 1413055617 758333 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1413055790 42662 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do use JL[, in fact. < 1413055843 690129 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or apparently I don't except in some older stuff. < 1413055854 107217 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I have used JL[ because I wasn't aware of sa. < 1413055974 796901 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I guess I did use JL[ in the ordered text "permutations" one, it was so short I didn't even have it saved in a file. < 1413056076 995046 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, fixed. < 1413056308 269797 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a Befunge-98 A006520 and it ended up having exactly the same length as my Forth one. < 1413057107 773135 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude NICK :Sjc1000 < 1413057128 671782 :Sjc1000!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude NICK :GeekDude < 1413057220 602829 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1413059905 776206 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1413061015 349251 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, awesomesauce. Someone actually has made a little expansion port jumper for the NES so you can get Famicom audio out of it. < 1413061085 508771 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, neater. Said port also gives you the Famicom expansion pins. < 1413061100 156338 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Family Basic or Famicom zapper use. < 1413061101 723924 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spiffy. < 1413061819 521566 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1413061930 225463 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trivia: I still have a fear of the words "kvm: disabled by BIOS" < 1413061942 665621 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1413061965 441890 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1413062125 963179 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413062163 909756 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1413062244 952412 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413062586 899285 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(somewhere in the logs for a few years ago there is the reason why) < 1413062693 7470 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1413062720 170430 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1413062900 71096 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-16-225.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1413063028 684227 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.58.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413063722 916891 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-16-225.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1413064522 952209 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1413065296 325158 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1413066236 790948 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Question: is SKI calculus + fix enough for something with a System F-like type system to be TC? < 1413066374 283108 :password2!~password@105.233.36.245 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1413066418 716508 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think i understand what a typed combinator system is... < 1413066434 671263 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t let k a b = a in k < 1413066435 608416 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :t1 -> t -> t1 < 1413066447 517580 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t let s a b c = a c (b c) in s < 1413066448 367020 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(t2 -> t1 -> t) -> (t2 -> t1) -> t2 -> t < 1413066554 936446 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see i guess sorta < 1413066760 739681 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: starting to think a lot of these subs on YouTube are low quality < 1413066894 586721 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: assuming abstraction elimination of simply typed lambda terms is type-preserving, i'd think so. < 1413066924 518987 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i remember this is true if you replace SKI calculus with LC < 1413066940 250681 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, thanks < 1413066960 530134 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :My proof of lens's Turing completeness depends on it, and I'm finally writing that out < 1413067156 804621 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf has my fridge started creaking occasionally :( < 1413067195 329505 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually creaking seems to be the wrong word < 1413067412 175341 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.58.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1413068452 969987 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1413068505 533845 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1413068513 436043 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1413070632 783730 :Patashu_!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1413070633 332651 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1413071266 324908 :Hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric