←2014-10-06 2014-10-07 2014-10-08→ ↑2014 ↑all
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00:21:20 <Bike> `run gcc -Wall hello.c
00:21:22 <HackEgo> hello.c:1:12: warning: ‘main’ is usually a function [-Wmain]
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00:44:54 <shachaf> why does english not even have a singular of clothes
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01:16:53 <mahem1> Hey all, speaking about befunge here. Is there any fast way to do advanced stack manipulations. For instance 'right rotating' a LIFO stack (the first value becomes the third, third, become second, second becomes first)
01:17:24 <lifthrasiir> 93? 98?
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01:18:57 <mahem1> 98. Although, not entirely sure of the difference between them.
01:19:48 <lifthrasiir> in 93 you have almost no way to directly or indirectly access the stack element past second-to-the-top
01:21:34 <mahem1> Excluding sets and puts? Or does 93 not have those?
01:21:43 <lifthrasiir> yeah, excluding sets and puts
01:22:09 <mahem1> ok, and in 98 what commands let you do that?
01:22:10 <lifthrasiir> of course, you are obviously limited in 80*25 bytes then
01:22:41 <lifthrasiir> afaik there is no direct command, but you can combine stack stack ops to get the similar effect, I think
01:25:06 <mahem1> I've tried to work out how to use the command seen here 9http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befunge) paste the second, but I can't seem to .
01:25:11 <mahem1> Example?
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01:30:24 <lifthrasiir> mahem1: the Wikipedia article exclusively discusses Befunge-93 (which is far smaller language than Funge-98), you should look at the "official Funge-98 specification" in the external links.
01:30:45 <lifthrasiir> of course, unless you want to constrain yourself to Befunge-93
01:35:32 <mahem1> lifthrasiir, Dang, buh, I've been stuck in a small little world... Thanks for setting me free from the small world of befunge93!
01:36:12 <lifthrasiir> the constraint is often a source of creativity though ;)
01:39:26 <mahem1> True, it's quite fun and intriguing actually. But I feel like I am cheating when I just use gets and puts as variables with mostly an empty stack...
01:39:41 <AndoDaan> we all do it.
01:39:49 <AndoDaan> so much room for variables.
01:40:06 <AndoDaan> just lying there, under the ip's feet.
01:40:43 <mahem1> Hmmmm, no goto in Funge98
01:41:01 <mahem1> Yeah, we all do, but then it kills the challenge.
01:41:21 <AndoDaan> http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/ccbi.html best '98 interpreter, has most of the fingerprints (modules)
01:41:44 <lifthrasiir> is cfunge still in development?
01:41:57 <mahem1> It's fun trying to figure out when to duplicate the top value for use way later in your program.
01:43:25 <AndoDaan> I doubt it, lifthrasiir. but idk.
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01:44:32 <AndoDaan> kinda lost my appetite for befunge when i started golfing. all that creativity doesn't help with competetiveness.
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02:03:50 <elliott_> I don't think CCBI is very in-development, either.
02:06:15 <AndoDaan> funge's best days are behind him i'm afraid.
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02:52:54 <mahem1> Hmmm, how do I get this 3rd dimension working...
02:53:18 <AndoDaan> are you using the windows' binary?
02:53:47 <AndoDaan> in ccbi i mean.
03:00:18 <mahem1> I dunno I got my interpretter from here. https://github.com/catseye/Befunge-93/blob/master/src/bef.c
03:00:22 <mahem1> On, linux.
03:02:36 <AndoDaan> I don't think '98 is implemented in that one.
03:02:55 <AndoDaan> and the 3D stuff is '98.
03:04:01 <Bicyclidine> is there any particular reason for a finite number of dimensions
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03:04:43 <AndoDaan> idk hilbert space just seems.... tooo big.
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03:05:24 <Bicyclidine> i'm just saying, as long as you're adding a whole dimension, might as well go for broke.
03:06:52 <AndoDaan> yeah, but after 3... maybe 4, it's just useless trying to visualize. and for me, personally, i'm useless without visualization.
03:06:57 <Bicyclidine> looks like funge 98 is generic anyway? you could have a unary "turn in this direction" operator in addition to the usual 0ary ones, so you wouldn't even need infinite opcodes
03:08:00 <Bicyclidine> have you ever played nethack or something? they do three dee just by successive slices of 2D, and it works fine since the topology is discrete. shouldn't be too hard in n dimensions
03:09:28 <AndoDaan> hmm, i've been looking a nethack recently. and i couldn't make out if it was a topdown view, or side on.
03:09:34 <Bicyclidine> topdown
03:09:37 <Bicyclidine> it takes practice though yeah
03:10:00 <mahem1> Whoops that is what I am using now. But I meant in funge98.
03:10:17 <Bicyclidine> basically i just mean each floor is a flat surface, and the dungeon as a whole is just a bunch of those taped together
03:10:18 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: it already has instructions to set delta
03:10:24 <Bicyclidine> hell yes
03:10:26 <elliott_> so you can do arbitrary dimensions, the only thing you need to specify is file encoding really
03:10:39 <Bicyclidine> very forward thinking
03:10:43 <elliott_> it'd need tweaks for infinite dimensions though.
03:10:50 <mahem1> Like what code is excuted in the 3rd dimension. How do you write it? . Or do I need to let it write it's own code in 3d?
03:10:50 <Bicyclidine> how are three dee spaces encoded
03:11:04 <AndoDaan> h and l i think
03:11:07 <elliott_> ^L increases z and resets x and y, basically
03:11:12 <elliott_> ^L as in the control code
03:11:26 <AndoDaan> don't we have a befunge '98 bot here?
03:11:28 <Bicyclidine> i mean how would you describe the 3d space of a program
03:11:32 <Bicyclidine> fungot: help
03:11:32 <fungot> Bicyclidine: we were at this arcade. do you remember when i gave you five hundred bucks, and told you to upgrade my computer for doom 3?
03:11:40 <elliott_> I'm not sure what you mean
03:11:44 <elliott_> I'm talking about the file format
03:11:49 <elliott_> you use ^L to separate 3D slices, basically
03:11:56 <Bicyclidine> OK, that makes sense then
03:12:00 <Bicyclidine> i thought you meant those were instructions
03:12:22 <Bicyclidine> catseye mentions other topologies so that's uh, something
03:12:53 <Bicyclidine> continuity sounds like it would be annoying.
03:14:48 <Bicyclidine> with a certain number of dimensions having instructions might be redundant. you only need like... i think seven continuous dimensions to run a UTC
03:15:58 * mahem1 is still confused on how to use l and h...
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03:16:42 <Bicyclidine> the befunge 98 spec link is broken :(
03:17:26 <Bicyclidine> easy to find on github though i guess, if that's what this is
03:17:38 <AndoDaan> http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html
03:19:14 <Bicyclidine> the delta function uses absolute space! how am i supposed to generalize this to a kerr-newman metric
03:19:39 <mahem1> All the spec really seems to say is.
03:19:41 <mahem1> The h "Go High" instruction causes the IP to travel up (delta <- (0,0,1)); the l "Go Low" instruction causes the IP to travel down (delta <- (0,0,-1)). These instructions are not available in Unefunge or Befunge.
03:20:20 <Bicyclidine> So you're wondering if that's a one time move or a more permanent change like <> etc?
03:20:44 <mahem1> Permanant change I would assumen, cause it's changing the delta.
03:20:54 <Bicyclidine> so what don't you get
03:21:00 <mahem1> But I am askign what code does it go and excute.
03:21:06 <mahem1> Cause you only write code in 2d
03:21:12 <Bicyclidine> well, the code above, presumably
03:21:18 <Bicyclidine> elliott_ said you specify that with some ^L thing
03:21:31 <Bicyclidine> otherwise i guess it's whatever's in fungeland by default, which is probably nops?
03:21:36 <elliott_> the quadium.net spec is out of date
03:21:51 <mahem1> I don't have a 3d text editor. :P
03:21:52 <elliott_> use https://github.com/catseye/Funge-98/blob/master/doc/funge98.markdown
03:22:04 <mahem1> What's an example of using ^L?
03:22:04 <Bicyclidine> your text editor is weak
03:22:05 <elliott_> anyway, I don't get the confusion
03:22:08 <elliott_> the IP starts at (0,0,0)
03:22:11 <elliott_> if you write
03:22:12 <elliott_> abc
03:22:12 <elliott_> def
03:22:15 <elliott_> ^L
03:22:18 <elliott_> ghi
03:22:20 <elliott_> jkl
03:22:23 <elliott_> then the IP starts at a
03:22:25 <elliott_> e is at (1,1,0)
03:22:28 <elliott_> g is at (0,0,1)
03:22:31 <Bicyclidine> the internal links are broken on the github, fuckin a
03:22:31 <elliott_> l is at (2,2,1)
03:22:37 <elliott_> (iirc)
03:22:46 <elliott_> "In Trefunge-98, the Form Feed (12) character increments the z coordinate and resets the x and y coordinates to zero."
03:22:51 <elliott_> I guess you might need to omit the newlines around the ^L there.
03:23:07 <elliott_> all this is just about interpreting source files; the ^Ls don't exist in fungespace or anything.
03:23:15 <elliott_> just like the newlines don't, for 2d funge
03:23:43 <Bicyclidine> i have no idea what this lahey space thing is talking about
03:23:54 <mahem1> I see. Pretty crazy stuff. Lemme try..
03:24:05 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: it's just talking about how wrapping works.
03:24:21 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: since the space is infinite, but if you have e.g. "foobar" then it runs f, o, o, ..., a, r, f, o, o, ...
03:24:31 <elliott_> rather than running f, o, o, b, a, r and then running spaces (which just get skipped) forever
03:25:13 <elliott_> you can think of it as just being a finite wrapping space that expands as you place stuff outside the boundaries
03:25:18 <elliott_> but that doesn't quite specify all the behaviour.
03:25:32 <elliott_> lahey space is just the overly-fancy "mathematical" model of the space being used.
03:25:39 <Bicyclidine> of course.
03:25:47 <Bicyclidine> i don't understand how this is distinct from a torus i admit
03:26:11 <Bicyclidine> oh, maybe for weird deltas
03:26:12 <Bicyclidine> or something
03:26:17 <elliott_> because toruses are finite
03:26:20 <elliott_> fungespace is infinite.
03:26:39 <elliott_> it's not a fixed, wrapping size, it's both infinitely large and wrapping.
03:26:54 <elliott_> when you wrap you go over an /infinite/ amount of space, conceptually
03:26:55 <Bicyclidine> so a resizeable torus, practically speaking
03:27:10 <elliott_> yeah, but that's not an actual specification of the space. :p
03:27:15 <elliott_> and there are edge-cases in terms of how you do that resizing.
03:27:17 <Bicyclidine> nerds...
03:27:23 <Bicyclidine> but yeah that makes sense i gues
03:27:31 <elliott_> note that this is relevant in cases like foo"bar
03:27:45 <Bicyclidine> i've been reading about strange attractors for hours so everything looks like topological garbage
03:27:49 <elliott_> that runs f, o, o, and then pushes I think "bar foo" to the stack
03:27:54 <Bicyclidine> manifolds... everywhere...
03:27:56 <elliott_> (by which I mean, it pushes those ascii values)
03:27:57 <Bicyclidine> oh that's pretty cute
03:28:08 <Bicyclidine> and then executes b?
03:28:10 <elliott_> in stringmode, consecutive spaces get collapsed, like in HTML
03:28:16 <elliott_> it's just collapsing aleph_null of them :p
03:28:20 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: *nod*
03:28:23 <Bicyclidine> i bet you could write some really horrid programs that way
03:28:36 <Bicyclidine> though i guess befunge is probably good for that in general
03:29:56 <Bicyclidine> maybe i should like... actually write a program.
03:32:25 <Bicyclidine> does esolang have any that are properly lorentz invariant
03:32:46 <Bicyclidine> or whatever the words are
03:35:33 <Bicyclidine> do you think running a bunch of semiconductors counts as a programming languages
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03:54:29 <Bicyclidine> You only need two registers for TC, right? what's the instruction set like again
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04:11:46 <zzo38> I tried to figure out the decks of Pokemon Card GB2 cards only, assuming all random stuff to your benefit and your opponent is cooperating but nobody can concede, how to win with the largest number of cards in your draw pile at the end.
04:12:38 <AndoDaan> and?
04:12:46 <zzo38> I came up with: Your cards = 1x GAMBLER, 1x any basic pokemon card. Opponents cards = 1x MEOWTH [Lv.14], 3x PORYGON [Lv.12], 2x RATTATA [Lv.9], 1x RECYCLE ENERGY, 4x IMAKUNI?, 1x ITEMFINDER.
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04:13:44 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: minsky machine
04:14:06 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine
04:14:47 <Bicyclidine> "alternate state transition" is basically a jump right
04:14:52 <AndoDaan> it's been a while since i've played... the gambler does it?
04:14:58 <elliott_> yeah
04:15:09 <Bicyclidine> god it must be a pain in the ass to write anything
04:15:24 <zzo38> AndoDaan: GAMBLER card means: Shuffle all cards from your hand into your draw pile. Toss a coin. If heads, draw eight cards; if tails, draw one card.
04:16:16 <AndoDaan> how many cards do i have in my hand on average?
04:16:54 <zzo38> You start with seven cards, and then draw one card on the beginning of each turn (if you cannot, you lose).
04:17:27 <AndoDaan> oh wait... 8-> and maybe eight back.
04:17:48 <Bicyclidine> i'm imagining how to compile from brainfuck and, seriously, pain in the ass
04:21:21 <zzo38> Someone told me that "while(setjmp(buf));" is like resumable exceptions. Does resumable exceptions have anything to do with the RESUME command in BASIC? I can see some similarity.
04:22:57 <Bicyclidine> anyway i guess i'm pretty sure that trefunge with only <>^vlh is tc.
04:23:32 <elliott_> I doubt it.
04:23:37 <elliott_> how could you ever branch
04:24:06 <Bicyclidine> you use your position in x as reg1, position in y as reg2, and position in z as the ip. the program is fixed so it should be okay
04:24:13 <Bicyclidine> branching would be going to wherever in z
04:24:30 <elliott_> how do you branch on any of those registers
04:25:08 <Bicyclidine> you position an h in the appropriate place on the zero of the appropriate axis
04:25:12 <Bicyclidine> or an l or whatever
04:25:47 <Bicyclidine> you can only branch to constant instructions, so you know all the branches when you're setting up fungespace, and there's a finite number, so you can space things out appropriately
04:26:29 <elliott_> well... ok. write it up :p
04:26:35 <elliott_> I'm too tired to analyse.
04:26:43 <elliott_> it sounds interesting though.
04:27:35 <Bicyclidine> i think i'll just believe minsky that two registers is TC and that'll be that
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04:28:30 <Bicyclidine> anyway there must be some number of dimensions it works for, i don't think discretizing the space ought to make physics totally impossible and obviously with a given number of continuous dimensions you only need to move cos phase fuckin space
04:30:21 <Bicyclidine> i guess the problem is that actually finding a program written in a minsky machine is like... why would you do that
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04:34:45 <quintopia> Bicyclidine: there's one linked to from the Etre page
04:35:39 <Bicyclidine> so there is! let me see if i can even understand this syntax
04:35:43 <quintopia> Bicyclidine: also, wouldn't it be easier to simulate Collatz functions in trefunge with those commands?
04:36:14 <Bicyclidine> maybe but i'm not thinking about that
04:36:39 <quintopia> oh i thought you just wanted to prove that subset TC
04:37:16 <Bicyclidine> well, i'm thinking of this in the context of strange attractors. more proofs the merrier i guess
04:38:58 <Bicyclidine> e.g. i think reducing it to two dimensions would /not/ be TC, but i can't prove that off the top of my head
04:39:24 <Bicyclidine> and if i said "by the poincare-bendixson theorem" people would just be confused
04:46:30 <Bicyclidine> i guess the initial condition of fungespace has to be infinitely large, though repetitive. oh well
04:47:49 <Bicyclidine> should i put it on the funge talk page or what
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05:05:47 <Bicyclidine> oh durr the paper i was thinking of is only three dimensional :x
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05:34:36 <Sgeo> If a recruiter is blatantly targetting me personally, but suggests they want to talk today or tomorrow, is it ok to hold off a bit? I mean, I'm the one in demand
05:38:22 <AndoDaan> Just ask yourself "would a stupid person hold off a bit?" And if the answr is "no" then yes.
05:41:55 * Sgeo mutters something about reversed stupidity, and also not being smart enough to model a stupid person
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05:51:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40585&oldid=40244 * 69.166.47.145 * (+4051) hot singles in fungot's area
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05:52:57 <Bicyclidine> wow, that thing's quicker than i thought
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06:00:16 <fizzie> What, the recent changes feed? It's very pushy.
06:01:07 <Bicyclidine> i know "somebody" "hypothetically" "named" "monotone" with a similar irc widget that is much slower, is all
06:04:52 <fizzie> It's built on the MediaWiki UDP recent changes feed, plus a socat-based shell oneliner to mangle the message into raw IRC and write it to the Unix domain socket that HackEgo accepts extra stuff on.
06:05:18 <Bicyclidine> the other one is, uh, dokuwiki i think. maybe dokuwiki sucks
06:05:40 <fizzie> Maybe it's based on polling, then.
06:05:49 <Bicyclidine> maybe
06:13:37 <b_jonas> UDP recent changes feed? wtf, who invents such a thing
06:14:08 <Bicyclidine> people who need up to the millisecond updates on my half baked phase constructions at midnight
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06:26:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40586&oldid=40409 * Rdebath * (+7212) Add tests and interpreters (plus upgrades)
06:27:09 <fizzie> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgRCFeeds
06:28:15 <fizzie> It can do UDP and Redis Pub/Sub, and the message itself can be the above (with IRC color codes and all) or a JSON object.
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06:40:14 * atehwa acknowledges self-Finnishness @ mroman_
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07:24:45 <mroman_> moin
07:24:54 <mroman_> @messages-loud
07:24:55 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 57m 35s ago: <mroman_> The hackage-story with "corrupt acid-state logs" made me really sceptical of using acid-state in future projects <-- afaiu it wasn't _really_ corrupted, the recovery just didn't know how to ignore the junk at the end of the log from the aborted transaction
07:25:28 <mroman_> @ask oerjan Can you do backups of acid-state databases?
07:25:29 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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08:23:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:EsoInterpreters]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40587&oldid=40572 * Keymaker * (+177) Reply.
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08:36:02 <AndoDaan> Bring back The Esotric Awards!
08:36:40 <AndoDaan> I mean, The... Essies.
08:38:49 <mroman_> the what?
08:39:13 <AndoDaan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_Awards
08:39:28 <AndoDaan> I bet it was star studde
08:39:30 <AndoDaan> d
08:41:34 <mroman_> hm
08:41:56 <AndoDaan> your burlesque would be a sho'win.
08:42:07 <AndoDaan> i don't know how to spell expressions.
08:43:37 <fizzie> I remember talk about the Essies, but nothing about the competitions themselves.
08:44:05 <fizzie> "It is not known if any entries were submitted. It is likewise not known if a winner was picked."
08:44:18 <fizzie> Very appropriate.
08:44:18 <AndoDaan> seems like that would be the most exciting bit.
08:46:40 <mroman_> well...
08:46:46 <mroman_> if the award ceremony is in finnland
08:46:50 <mroman_> I might participate.
09:03:29 <fizzie> Grumble frumble sox FAIL formats: can't open input file `data/adults/test/man/gp/15z8973a.wav': sph: unsupported coding `pcm,embedded-shorten-v2.00'
09:03:51 <fizzie> I don't quite see why all these corpora go for the NIST SPHERE + Shorten format.
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09:09:57 <oerjan> holy shit a nobel to trondheim
09:10:47 <oerjan> @messages-
09:10:47 <lambdabot> boily said 10h 22m 9s ago: thanks for the irradiation!
09:10:47 <lambdabot> mroman_ asked 1h 45m 18s ago: Can you do backups of acid-state databases?
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09:13:09 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ They did nightly backups. It was never a matter of losing more than that. But if they had understood in time that it was just a single partially written transaction, they could have restored everything up to that as well.
09:13:09 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:14:42 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ *up to the last moment, as the system _did_ shut down for safety when it happened.
09:14:42 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:21:14 <mroman_> but how do you do backups of that?
09:21:21 <mroman_> @messages-
09:21:22 <lambdabot> oerjan said 8m 12s ago: They did nightly backups. It was never a matter of losing more than that. But if they had understood in time that it was just a single partially written transaction, they could have restored everything up to that as well.
09:21:22 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6m 39s ago: *up to the last moment, as the system _did_ shut down for safety when it happened.
09:21:50 <mroman_> you'd have to stop the application
09:21:54 <mroman_> then copy the acid-state folder?
09:22:01 <oerjan> it's possible they do? i don't know.
09:22:03 <mroman_> then start the application
09:22:17 <mroman_> I mean... you don't know when acid-state will write to those files
09:22:26 <mroman_> so copying the files mid-write is probably not a good idea
09:26:41 <oerjan> i don't know how this works. ask someone who does.
09:27:28 <oerjan> i want the neighbors' dog to die so much.
09:27:50 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin.
09:28:19 <oerjan> it has this completely eerie ability to start barking the moment i'm trying to concentrate.
09:28:55 <oerjan> and then to keep silent enough of the rest of the time that i don't feel i can complain too much.
09:29:10 <oerjan> (although today is starting to push it.)
09:34:57 <oerjan> mroman_: look at this discussion http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/xs0t2/acidstate_with_yesod/c5p8af7
09:40:30 <oerjan> `ls
09:40:31 <HackEgo> ​:-( \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ binpipes \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ crunchfuck \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ etc \ factor \ gcccomp \ head \ hej \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
09:40:40 <oerjan> `rm gcccomp
09:40:41 <HackEgo> No output.
09:42:25 <fizzie> `cat moop.txt
09:42:25 <HackEgo> Moop!
09:42:28 <fizzie> Useful.
09:42:52 <oerjan> `url binpipes
09:42:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/binpipes
09:43:03 <mroman_> `unidecode ⋖
09:43:04 <HackEgo> ​[U+22D6 LESS-THAN WITH DOT]
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09:44:47 -!- heroux__ has quit (Excess Flood).
09:44:48 -!- heroux has quit (Write error: Broken pipe).
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09:44:52 -!- heroux has changed nick to 16WAAR95O.
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09:45:28 <oerjan> i think that was put there by someone who doesn't understand unixy directories.
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09:46:45 <oerjan> `` rm binpipes moop.txt
09:46:47 <HackEgo> No output.
09:46:52 <mroman_> " Or do you expect very expensive haskell developers spend the rest of their lives creating hundreds of customized reports ?"
09:46:53 <fizzie> It's also not terribly useful over IRC.
09:46:59 <mroman_> haskell developers are expensive?
09:47:06 <oerjan> i didn't think so either
09:47:31 <oerjan> mroman_: i think that vagif guy may be _ever_ so slightly trolly on occasion.
09:47:37 <oerjan> (maybe always.)
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09:48:09 <oerjan> `url crunchfuck
09:48:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/crunchfuck
09:48:31 <mroman_> oerjan: He's not completely wrong though
09:48:40 <int-e> oerjan: I think you cheated on hello hello world, 84 looks impossible ;-)
09:48:49 <mroman_> Interfacing with an acid-state database pretty much relies on you writing some export-my-data-service
09:48:54 <oerjan> `rm crunchfuck
09:48:56 <HackEgo> No output.
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09:49:31 <oerjan> int-e: nope, it's completely non-cheating
09:50:33 <int-e> oerjan: have you seen my terrible prime solution? using or[] and a prime test that works for numbers up to 340 (as the other two 61 character solutions do) is comparatively sane.
09:50:57 <oerjan> oh it's finished? hadn't checked.
09:51:11 <int-e> > (mod(2^341-2)341,mod 341 11)
09:51:13 <lambdabot> (0,0)
09:51:56 <mroman_> the other drawback is you can't use acid-state with large databases on low-memory devices
09:52:19 <oerjan> int-e: so i may still have the shortest _non_-cheating solution on that? :P
09:52:33 <oerjan> even if it's the longest in the list.
09:52:44 <int-e> oerjan: I think so, yes.
09:53:37 <fizzie> I uploaded my long Forth hello-hello-world because nobody else seemed to be doing Forth, seems that's still true.
09:54:18 <b_jonas> hmm, this hello world task again, which task is this?
09:54:23 <b_jonas> can you give a link?
09:54:42 <oerjan> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+hello+world
09:54:56 <b_jonas> thanks
09:56:00 <b_jonas> but wasn't that about ternary? how does prime testing come into this/
09:56:01 <b_jonas> ?
09:56:13 <mroman_> fizzie: the trick to get a huge amount of points on anagol is to submit an incredibly large program in a language nobody has yet submitted something just short before deadline
09:56:14 <int-e> oerjan: however: main=mapM print[z+1|z<-[0..252],p(z+2)||p z];p n=all((>0).mod n)[2..n-1]
09:56:16 <oerjan> b_jonas: no that's http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?A045718
09:56:22 <mroman_> then you submit your real solution just right after the deadline
09:57:01 <mroman_> your solution is then compared to the best solution before the deadline (i.e. your incredibly large program)
09:57:08 <b_jonas> mroman_: hehe
09:57:10 <mroman_> and receives points depending on how much shorter it is
09:57:18 <mroman_> which means you can get more than 10k points
09:57:25 <int-e> oerjan: and the or[] trick is applicable as well: main=mapM print[z+1|z<-[0..252],or[all((>0).mod n)[2..n-1]|n<-[z+2,z]]]
09:57:39 <b_jonas> I should try that. I can generate long programs in strange languages for some tasks.
09:58:59 <oerjan> > length "main=mapM print[z+1|z<-[0..252],p(z+2)||p z];p n=all((>0).mod n)[2..n-1]"
09:59:01 <lambdabot> 72
09:59:05 <int-e> oerjan: and another character: main=mapM print[z|z<-[1..252],or[all((>0).mod(n+1))[2..n]|n<-[z,z-2]]]
09:59:19 <int-e> > length "main=mapM print[z|z<-[1..252],or[all((>0).mod(n+1))[2..n]|n<-[z,z-2]]]"
09:59:20 <lambdabot> 70
10:00:55 <oerjan> i also had a version using or instead of any
10:01:03 <oerjan> was the same length, though.
10:01:46 <oerjan> actually it was using _both_ or and and.
10:02:12 <oerjan> l=[2..255];main=mapM print[z|z<-1:l,or[and[x*y-z/=s|x<-l,y<-l]|s<-[-1,1]]]
10:02:30 <int-e> (I submitted the 70 characters one)
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10:04:43 <fizzie> I have a 20-character Burlesque A006520 that runs in 1.1 seconds on my own computer, but is too slow for anagolf. :/
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10:06:55 <oerjan> i guess this mod(2^y-2)y<1 trick is something well-known for golfing.
10:07:49 <int-e> I discovered it myself, but it appears in several publicly visible entries by henkma
10:07:54 <int-e> (and others)
10:07:55 <int-e> so yeah
10:08:02 <mroman_> fizzie: did you compile with -O3?
10:08:33 <int-e> (well, "discover" is perhaps too strong, since I have read a bit about pseudoprimes before)
10:09:06 <mroman_> also what's ghc's default for -O?
10:09:43 <myname> oerjan: what trick?
10:09:46 <mroman_> according to github shinh didn't compile it with -O3
10:10:19 <int-e> myname: it's a primality test that works up to 340
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10:12:05 <oerjan> hm...
10:12:43 <oerjan> > let p=nubBy(((<1).).mod)[2..] in p
10:12:45 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
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10:13:40 <oerjan> `factor 341
10:13:40 <HackEgo> 341: 11 31
10:13:45 <mroman_> 1024 1024?*ro)fCL[ runs in 1.7s on my machine
10:13:48 <AndoDaan> !blsq 101ro{fcL[2==}f[
10:13:48 <blsqbot> {2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97 101}
10:13:54 <mroman_> on anagol it runs at least 3.5s but then runs out of stack space
10:16:51 <mroman_> with -O0 on my machine it takes 3.5s to run
10:17:00 <mroman_> that's huge
10:17:08 <oerjan> > let p=nubBy(((<1).).mod)[2..]; c=concat$zipWith(\m n->[m+1..n-1])p(tail p) in c
10:17:10 <lambdabot> [4,6,8,9,10,12,14,15,16,18,20,21,22,24,25,26,27,28,30,32,33,34,35,36,38,39,4...
10:17:45 <fizzie> mroman_: I did what your README.md suggested, so probably.
10:17:53 <oerjan> > let p=nubBy(((<1).).mod)[2..]; c=concat$zipWith(\m n->[m+1..n-1])p(tail p); k=2 in find(\y -> mod(k^y-k)y<1)c
10:17:55 <lambdabot> Just 341
10:18:01 <oerjan> > let p=nubBy(((<1).).mod)[2..]; c=concat$zipWith(\m n->[m+1..n-1])p(tail p); k=3 in find(\y -> mod(k^y-k)y<1)c
10:18:03 <lambdabot> Just 6
10:18:26 <oerjan> hmph
10:18:29 <int-e> oerjan: it's hard to outperform the 2
10:18:33 <oerjan> ic
10:18:44 <int-e> > let p=nubBy(((<1).).mod)[2..]; c=concat$zipWith(\m n->[m+1..n-1])p(tail p); k=10103 in find(\y -> mod(k^y-k)y<1)c
10:18:46 <lambdabot> Just 561
10:19:02 <oerjan> i guess it's the shortest for its performance, then
10:19:09 <mroman_> 1024 1024?*ro{fC++J?*}m[++ is 30s with -O0 and 19s with -O3 :)
10:19:26 <int-e> oerjan: 561 is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmichael_number, so that's the best possible.
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10:20:19 <int-e> (for this Fermat style primality test)
10:20:29 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, that's a nice trick, though I think in some languages a slow trial division test might be shorter.
10:20:34 <oerjan> ah
10:21:13 <b_jonas> like, there's that crazy regex backreference test that works in perl and some other languages
10:21:49 <b_jonas> that's like eww but for such small numbers it should work, and you might be able to embed the plus minus one into the regex
10:21:53 <b_jonas> hmm
10:22:05 <b_jonas> see http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=510925
10:22:44 <mroman_> ('1' x shift) !~ /^(11+)\1+$/
10:22:49 <mroman_> what's the upper bound for that test?
10:24:59 <int-e> none, it's perfect
10:25:13 <int-e> it'll be slow for large numbers though
10:26:32 <mroman_> is that a unicode operator?
10:27:40 <int-e> huh?
10:27:48 <mroman_> the x?
10:27:52 <mroman_> or is that a regular x
10:28:02 <int-e> the letter
10:28:05 <mroman_> also... does that use base1 numbers?
10:28:08 <int-e> or latter, if you like ;-)
10:28:33 <mroman_> I have no idea how that code works
10:28:39 <mroman_> (also I don't know ANY perl)
10:28:42 <int-e> (11+) <-- match 2 or more 1s. \1+ <- match what the () matched, one or more times
10:29:05 <mroman_> wait
10:29:07 <int-e> so you match (1+n)(1+m) 1s, where n,m>1
10:29:15 <int-e> a string of 1 of composite length
10:29:37 <mroman_> but '1' x shift converts to base1?
10:29:42 <int-e> oh and note that the test fails for 0 and 1.
10:29:44 <int-e> yes
10:30:15 <int-e> (that is, 0 and 1 are primes according to that test)
10:30:54 <mroman_> Makes sense
10:31:01 <mroman_> 0 is kinda a super-prime
10:31:10 <mroman_> you can divide primes by itself and 1
10:31:21 <mroman_> you can divide 0 only by 1 but not by itself
10:31:36 <mroman_> so it's even primier then every other prime
10:31:39 <int-e> you can divide 0 by any natural number except 0
10:32:01 <mroman_> of course
10:32:25 <AndoDaan> you can divide anything by anything
10:32:37 <AndoDaan> elephant / tofu
10:32:38 <AndoDaan> see
10:32:55 <mroman_> is that ABNF?
10:32:59 <int-e> 0 is the maximum of the divisibility relation; 1 is the minimum, and primes are the successors of 1.
10:33:02 <AndoDaan> !blsq 10 1B!
10:33:02 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
10:33:09 <AndoDaan> hmm
10:33:16 <mroman_> yeah. that doesn't work
10:33:22 <mroman_> !blsq "1"10.*
10:33:22 <blsqbot> {"1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1"}
10:33:28 <mroman_> !blsq '110.*
10:33:28 <blsqbot> "1111111111"
10:33:33 <AndoDaan> what does it try and calculate?
10:33:38 <mroman_> puh
10:33:41 <mroman_> let me check the code
10:33:47 <b_jonas> mroman_: the x is string replication operator
10:34:20 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, base 1 numbers, but as you need only small numbers it should be fine
10:34:27 <int-e> `` perl -e 'print"ha"x10'
10:34:27 <HackEgo> hahahahahahahahahaha
10:34:40 <mroman_> digits bs n
10:34:44 <mroman_> > digits 2 10
10:34:46 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘digits’
10:34:46 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
10:34:46 <lambdabot> ‘BSC.inits’ (imported from Data.ByteString.Char8),
10:34:46 <lambdabot> ‘BSLC.inits’ (imported from Data.ByteString.Lazy.Char8),
10:34:46 <lambdabot> ‘inits’ (imported from Data.List)
10:34:54 <mroman_> @import Data.Digits
10:34:55 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
10:34:57 <mroman_> pf
10:35:08 <b_jonas> as for limits, I _think_ on a fast machine it might fail when you go over around 65536, especially on older perls, because the repetition operators of perl regexen used to have some bugs regarding repetitions more than that,
10:35:21 <mroman_> AndoDaan: technically digits in Data.Digits is broken for base = 1
10:35:40 <AndoDaan> cool
10:35:50 <b_jonas> but you'll probably run out of time before that.
10:36:15 <mroman_> so it's not my fault B! doesn't work for 1
10:36:20 <mroman_> ;P
10:36:32 <b_jonas> as in, if any of those bugs remain, p5p will fix those bugs and you will install perl and get faster hardware before you have a chance to finish that statement for such a large number where it fails.
10:36:37 <AndoDaan> i dinna say nuffin'
10:36:45 <mroman_> although I should add an exception for bs 1
10:36:49 <b_jonas> I think it probably won't fail at all, at least under 4G.
10:36:54 <mroman_> because why not
10:36:58 <b_jonas> anyway, the point is,
10:37:09 <int-e> > showIntAtBase 3 intToDigit 1000 ""
10:37:10 <lambdabot> "1101001"
10:37:22 <mroman_> > showIntAtBase 1 intToDigit 1000 ""
10:37:24 <lambdabot> "*Exception: Numeric.showIntAtBase: applied to unsupported base 1
10:37:28 <mroman_> pff
10:37:31 <AndoDaan> !blsq 1000 3B!
10:37:31 <blsqbot> "1101001"
10:37:32 <oerjan> b_jonas: i remember having to do tricks to get my BCT interpreter in /// under that limit for the slashes.pl interpreter
10:37:35 <b_jonas> the advantage of this regex is that you can encod ethe plus or minus one cheaply: you just prefix two chars to the string and match zero or two chars in the beginning
10:37:45 <b_jonas> oerjan: ouch
10:37:48 <mroman_> > showIntAtBase -1 intToDigit 1000 ""
10:37:50 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num
10:37:50 <lambdabot> ((GHC.Types.Int -> GHC.Types.Char)
10:37:50 <lambdabot> -> a0
10:37:50 <lambdabot> -> [GHC.Types.Char]
10:37:50 <lambdabot> -> a
10:37:53 <mroman_> > showIntAtBase (-2) intToDigit 1000 ""
10:37:55 <lambdabot> "*Exception: Numeric.showIntAtBase: applied to unsupported base -2
10:37:57 <mroman_> pff
10:37:58 <int-e> `` dc <<<3o1000p
10:37:58 <HackEgo> 1101001
10:38:00 <AndoDaan> i'm working on a /// interpreter right now.
10:38:12 <mroman_> !blsq 100 2B!
10:38:12 <blsqbot> "1100100"
10:38:14 <mroman_> !blsq 100 -2B!
10:38:14 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
10:38:17 <mroman_> :(
10:38:26 <AndoDaan> !blsq 1000 primeB!
10:38:26 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 13):
10:38:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: I mean, that limit does come up in pracitcal programs, like in matching long double-quoted strings with escapes and stuff,
10:38:40 <b_jonas> but still.
10:39:09 <int-e> `` dc <<<_3o1000p
10:39:10 <HackEgo> dc: output base must be a number greater than 1 \ 1000
10:39:18 <fizzie> `forth : x 3 base ! 1000 . ; x
10:39:18 <HackEgo> 1101001
10:39:22 <fizzie> `forth : x 1 base ! 1000 . ; x
10:39:22 <HackEgo> ​ \ *OS command line*: \ uncaught exception: Pictured numeric ouput string overflow
10:39:26 <fizzie> Heh.
10:39:49 <int-e> picturesque overlow?
10:39:54 <int-e> *overflow
10:40:50 <fizzie> Curiously enough, setting base doesn't affect interpreted mode.
10:40:56 <fizzie> `forth 3 base ! 1000 .
10:40:57 <HackEgo> 1000
10:41:00 <oerjan> AndoDaan: you should test my BCT interpreter on it then :)
10:41:26 <AndoDaan> bit cycle thingie>
10:41:28 <AndoDaan> ?
10:41:44 <int-e> binary cyclic tag
10:41:54 <AndoDaan> right.
10:42:40 <AndoDaan> i tried something like that a month or two ago, it was fun.
10:42:45 <AndoDaan> sure.
10:43:03 <oerjan> b_jonas: a /// substitution command is essentially just two long //- quoted escaped strings, so that's exactly the use case
10:43:56 <oerjan> int-e: bitwise, canonically
10:44:27 <AndoDaan> !blsq 146 -3 ./
10:44:28 <blsqbot> -49
10:44:38 <AndoDaan> !blsq 146.0 -3 ./
10:44:38 <blsqbot> -48.666666666666664
10:44:53 <AndoDaan> !blsq 146 -3 .%
10:44:53 <blsqbot> -1
10:45:07 <AndoDaan> !blsq -3 146 .%
10:45:07 <blsqbot> 143
10:45:15 <AndoDaan> !blsq -3 146 ./
10:45:15 <blsqbot> -1
10:45:17 <int-e> oerjan: hmm. ok.
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10:46:06 <int-e> ("hmm" = "if you say so, but I think 'binary' sounds better, now how the hell do I unlearn that?")
10:49:06 <b_jonas> oerjan: ah, that makes sense
10:50:45 * oerjan hands int-e the saucepan for repeated self-application to head hth ===\__/
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11:42:40 <mroman_> !blsq 1000 13B!
11:42:40 <blsqbot> "5bc"
11:42:44 <mroman_> !blsq 1000 7B!
11:42:44 <blsqbot> "2626"
11:42:52 <mroman_> !blsq 1000 13dg
11:42:52 <blsqbot> {5 11 12}
11:43:01 <mroman_> !blsq 1000 13dg++
11:43:02 <blsqbot> 28
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11:50:58 <b_jonas> oh argh! you can't just add (11)? to the beginning of the regex, because the regex matches composite numbers, not primes
11:51:04 <b_jonas> you need a few extra characters
11:56:44 <b_jonas> YES!
11:58:19 <b_jonas> um
11:58:33 <b_jonas> how do command-line switches for perl work on the anagol server?
11:59:10 <oerjan> 236 is a bit long for a golf maybe, but it feels nifty anyway
12:00:11 <b_jonas> `perl -le (1 .1x$_)=~/^(11)?(?!(11+)\2+$)/&&print for 1..252
12:00:12 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 6 \ 8 \ 10 \ 12 \ 14 \ 16 \ 18 \ 20 \ 22 \ 24 \ 28 \ 30 \ 32 \ 36 \ 38 \ 40 \ 42 \ 44 \ 46 \ 48 \ 52 \ 54 \ 58 \ 60 \ 62 \ 66 \ 68 \ 70 \ 72 \ 74 \ 78 \ 80 \ 82 \ 84 \ 88 \ 90 \ 96 \ 98 \ 100 \ 102 \ 104 \ 106 \ 108 \ 110 \ 112 \ 114 \ 126 \ 128 \ 130 \ 132 \ 136 \ 138 \ 140 \ 148 \ 150 \ 152 \ 156 \ 158 \ 162 \ 164 \ 166 \ 168 \ 17
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12:30:54 <oerjan> 234, i realized one of my definitions wasn't actually saving space, despite being used four times
12:34:58 <oerjan> oh hm
12:38:03 <oerjan> 219
12:40:30 <oerjan> 213
12:41:57 <oerjan> (those two last came from changing some tuples to lists)
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12:57:07 <oerjan> *+ones
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13:13:56 <fizzie> Nobody else seems very interested about count-the-overlap.
13:14:28 <AndoDaan> yep, i did better with pocketses
13:15:00 <AndoDaan> no big loss, it's not like i spent a whole morning making it...
13:15:39 <fizzie> Oh, there's a fancy performance checker too; my too slow 20-byte solution runs in 3.379202s there.
13:16:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: 20byte?
13:20:02 <oerjan> fizzie: i think maybe there's too much i/o noise in it? at least that takes most of my code.
13:20:20 <fizzie> For the A006520, I mean.
13:20:37 <fizzie> I don't have a 20-byte overlap thing.
13:20:53 <AndoDaan> You could!
13:20:59 <AndoDaan> think of the glory
13:21:04 <oerjan> indeed
13:21:34 <AndoDaan> thanks for giving it a go, oerjan
13:21:45 <oerjan> oh is it yours?
13:21:53 <AndoDaan> i guess i made it too messy
13:21:55 <AndoDaan> yeah
13:34:34 <mroman_> what overlap?
13:36:36 <mroman_> ah
13:36:39 <mroman_> new golf challenge
13:43:36 <oerjan> 211
13:44:41 <AndoDaan> that's dedication.
13:47:18 <oerjan> i found a way to shorten the outputting
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14:25:18 <mroman_> couldn't you have used just four integers
14:25:25 <mroman_> for the input format or something
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14:30:05 <AndoDaan> yeah, i really should have.
14:30:10 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd
14:30:10 <blsqbot> {"ax" "1" "ay" "1" "aw" "1" "ah" "1" "bx" "1" "by" "1" "bw" "1" "bh" "1" "cx" "1
14:30:19 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd:ri
14:30:19 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
14:30:25 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd:an
14:30:25 <blsqbot> {"ax" "1" "ay" "1" "aw" "1" "ah" "1" "bx" "1" "by" "1" "bw" "1" "bh" "1" "cx" "1
14:30:29 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd:ad
14:30:29 <blsqbot> {"1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1" "1"}
14:30:44 <AndoDaan> idk i wanted to explain it well. over did the info
14:30:46 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd:ad)ri4co
14:30:46 <blsqbot> {{1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1}}
14:31:08 <AndoDaan> well, presentation of the info
14:31:59 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd:ad)ri4co3CB
14:31:59 <blsqbot> {{{1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1}} {{1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1}} {{1 1 1 1} {1 1
14:32:05 <mroman_> !blsq "ax 1 ay 1 aw 1 ah 1 bx 1 by 1 bw 1 bh 1 cx 1 cy 1 cw 1 ch 1"wd:ad)ri4co3cb
14:32:05 <blsqbot> {{{1 1 1 1}} {{1 1 1 1}} {{1 1 1 1}} {{1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1}} {{1 1 1 1} {1 1 1 1}}
14:32:08 <mroman_> hm
14:32:11 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"3cb
14:32:11 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "aa" "ab" "ac" "ba" "bb" "bc" "ca" "cb" "cc" "aaa" "aab" "aac" "aba
14:32:48 <AndoDaan> remove duplicates and again
14:33:11 <mroman_> yeah
14:33:12 <mroman_> )NBNB
14:33:17 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"3cb)NBNB
14:33:17 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "ab" "ac" "ba" "bc" "ca" "cb" "abc" "acb" "bac" "bca" "cab" "cba"}
14:33:24 <mroman_> and then only the sorted ones
14:33:27 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"3cb)NBNB:so
14:33:27 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "ab" "ac" "bc" "abc"}
14:33:29 <mroman_> there we go
14:33:30 <mroman_> :)
14:33:41 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"3cbso
14:33:41 <blsqbot> 0
14:33:43 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"3cb:so
14:33:44 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "aa" "ab" "ac" "bb" "bc" "cc" "aaa" "aab" "aac" "abb" "abc" "acc" "
14:33:56 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"3cb)NBNB:so
14:33:56 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "ab" "ac" "bc" "abc"}
14:33:58 <mroman_> this sucks
14:34:09 <AndoDaan> I totally see now what a drag this part of it is.
14:34:18 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"3CO
14:34:18 <blsqbot> {"abc"}
14:34:21 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"3co
14:34:21 <blsqbot> {"abc"}
14:34:24 <AndoDaan> has nothing to do with the core idea.
14:34:34 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"2co
14:34:34 <blsqbot> {"ab" "c"}
14:34:37 <AndoDaan> argh. next time bettr.
14:34:47 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"su
14:34:47 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "ab" "bc" "abc"}
14:34:49 <mroman_> ha
14:34:50 <mroman_> there we go
14:35:00 <AndoDaan> wow
14:35:13 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"su3.-
14:35:13 <blsqbot> {"ab" "bc" "abc"}
14:35:36 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"r@
14:35:36 <blsqbot> {"abc" "bac" "cba" "bca" "cab" "acb"}
14:35:41 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"R@
14:35:41 <blsqbot> {"" "a" "b" "ab" "c" "ac" "bc" "abc"}
14:36:22 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"R@f[
14:36:22 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (f[) Invalid arguments!
14:36:26 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"3cb{smn!}f[
14:36:27 <blsqbot> {"ab" "ac" "ba" "bc" "ca" "cb" "aab" "aac" "aba" "abb" "abc" "aca" "acb" "acc" "
14:36:39 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"3cb{U_}f[
14:36:39 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "ab" "ac" "ba" "bc" "ca" "cb" "abc" "acb" "bac" "bca" "cab" "cba"}
14:36:43 <mroman_> hehe
14:36:57 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"3cb{{U_}{so}m&}f[
14:36:58 <blsqbot> {"a" "b" "c" "ab" "ac" "bc" "abc"}
14:37:01 <mroman_> tada
14:37:16 <mroman_> but that's just su I guess
14:37:23 <AndoDaan> so su == 3cb{....
14:37:43 <mroman_> no
14:37:48 <mroman_> su is "all substrings"
14:37:51 <mroman_> !blsq "AndoDaan"su
14:37:51 <blsqbot> {"A" "D" "a" "d" "n" "o" "An" "Da" "aa" "an" "do" "nd" "oD" "And" "Daa" "aan" "d
14:38:05 <mroman_> !blsq "cold"su
14:38:05 <blsqbot> {"c" "d" "l" "o" "co" "ld" "ol" "col" "old" "cold"}
14:38:28 <AndoDaan> hmm, a burlesque command that finds the products as it were of single commands
14:38:35 <mroman_> what products?
14:38:58 <mroman_> theres
14:39:00 <AndoDaan> like just now with su
14:39:01 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"Jcp
14:39:01 <blsqbot> {"aa" "ab" "ac" "ba" "bb" "bc" "ca" "cb" "cc"}
14:39:13 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"Jcp:U_
14:39:13 <blsqbot> {"ab" "ac" "ba" "bc" "ca" "cb"}
14:39:23 <mroman_> ^- that's good for matches
14:39:26 <mroman_> or tournaments
14:39:27 <mroman_> like
14:39:39 <mroman_> !blsq {"Manchester" "Bayern" "Berlin"}Jcp:U_
14:39:39 <blsqbot> {{"Manchester" "Bayern"} {"Manchester" "Berlin"} {"Bayern" "Manchester"} {"Bayer
14:39:49 <mroman_> gives you the list of all matches these teams have to play
14:40:11 <mroman_> (including rematches)
14:40:18 <mroman_> otherwise use
14:40:27 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"Jcp:U_:so
14:40:27 <blsqbot> {"ab" "ac" "bc"}
14:40:31 <mroman_> wait
14:40:31 <mroman_> no
14:40:35 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"Jcp:U_
14:40:35 <blsqbot> {"ab" "ac" "ba" "bc" "ca" "cb"}
14:40:51 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"Jcp:U_:so
14:40:51 <blsqbot> {"ab" "ac" "bc"}
14:40:54 <mroman_> yep.
14:40:58 <mroman_> a vs b. a vs c. b vs c
14:41:03 <mroman_> everyone has played with everybody
14:41:10 <mroman_> !blsq "abcd"Jcp:U_:so
14:41:10 <blsqbot> {"ab" "ac" "ad" "bc" "bd" "cd"}
14:41:39 <AndoDaan> now append random scores to each
14:41:47 <mroman_> to each match?
14:41:49 <AndoDaan> then... who needs a tv anyway
14:41:49 <mroman_> no problem
14:42:12 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 52co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[
14:42:12 <blsqbot> {{0 "ab"}}
14:42:13 <AndoDaan> come on 'b'! that's my team
14:42:18 <mroman_> hm
14:42:19 <mroman_> damn
14:42:25 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[
14:42:25 <blsqbot> {{{5 5} "ab"} {{3 0} "ac"} {{4 1} "ad"} {{3 1} "bc"} {{1 0} "bd"} {{5 4} "cd"}}
14:42:26 <mroman_> ah
14:42:27 <mroman_> there
14:42:48 <AndoDaan> b draws or wins
14:42:50 <AndoDaan> good job b
14:42:57 <mroman_> I gues know you want to know the winner of this
14:43:01 <mroman_> this could be tricky
14:43:21 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[)z[
14:43:21 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (z[) Invalid arguments! {{5 5} "ab"} ERROR: Burlesque: (z[) I
14:43:29 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^z[}m[
14:43:29 <blsqbot> {{{'a 5} {'b 5}} {{'a 3} {'c 0}} {{'a 4} {'d 1}} {{'b 3} {'c 1}} {{'b 1} {'d 0}}
14:43:58 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^}m[
14:43:58 <blsqbot> {{5 5} "ab" {3 0} "ac" {4 1} "ad" {3 1} "bc" {1 0} "bd" {5 4} "cd"}
14:44:08 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^>]}m[
14:44:08 <blsqbot> {5 "ab" 3 "ac" 4 "ad" 3 "bc" 1 "bd" 5 "cd"}
14:44:17 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi}m[
14:44:17 <blsqbot> {0 "ab" 0 "ac" 0 "ad" 0 "bc" 0 "bd" 0 "cd"}
14:44:30 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[
14:44:30 <blsqbot> {'a 'a 'a 'b 'b 'c}
14:44:33 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:
14:44:33 <blsqbot> {{3 'a} {2 'b} {1 'c}}
14:44:38 <mroman_> there
14:44:49 <King2218> wait what's happening here?
14:44:57 <mroman_> a won three times, b won two times and c won 1 time
14:45:13 <AndoDaan> draws aren't counted
14:45:17 <mroman_> well
14:45:22 <mroman_> in case of a draw somebody wins
14:45:24 <mroman_> :D
14:45:33 <AndoDaan> true eough.
14:45:36 <AndoDaan> :)
14:45:48 <mroman_> the one who plays in his home stadion wins in case of a draw
14:45:56 <mroman_> !blsq 10 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:
14:45:57 <blsqbot> {{3 'a} {2 'b} {1 'c}}
14:46:03 <mroman_> hm
14:46:08 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:
14:46:09 <blsqbot> {{3 'a} {1 'd} {1 'c} {1 'b}}
14:46:20 <mroman_> wait
14:46:25 <mroman_> ah
14:46:27 <mroman_> now d won one time
14:46:33 <mroman_> fair enough
14:46:48 <mroman_> King2218: Scoring in Burlesque
14:47:02 <elliott_> what's the algorithm there?
14:47:22 <mroman_> 120 0 5rn2co creates random scores
14:47:31 <mroman_> "abcd"Jcp:U_:so returns a list of matches
14:47:37 <mroman_> z[ assigns the random scores to the matches
14:47:51 <mroman_> {p^J>]Fi!!}m[ detects the winner of each match
14:48:00 <mroman_> f: shows how many team each team won
14:48:07 <mroman_> *how many times each team won
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14:48:29 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcd"Jcp:U_:soz[
14:48:29 <blsqbot> {{{5 5} "ab"} {{0 0} "ac"} {{5 2} "ad"} {{1 4} "bc"} {{5 1} "bd"} {{0 1} "cd"}}
14:48:45 <mroman_> also scores are 0-5
14:48:54 <mroman_> 120 is the seed
14:49:15 <mroman_> piece of cake doing this stuff in Burlesque :P
14:49:47 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_:soz[
14:49:47 <blsqbot> {{{5 5} "ab"} {{0 0} "ac"} {{5 2} "ad"} {{1 4} "ae"} {{5 1} "af"} {{0 1} "bc"} {
14:50:00 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:
14:50:00 <blsqbot> {{4 'a} {3 'd} {3 'c} {2 'e} {2 'b} {1 'f}}
14:50:42 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:[-[-
14:50:43 <blsqbot> {{3 'c} {2 'e} {2 'b} {1 'f}}
14:50:46 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:-]-]
14:50:46 <blsqbot> 4
14:50:52 <mroman_> !blsq 120 0 5rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:-][~
14:50:52 <blsqbot> 'a
14:51:00 <mroman_> and that gives you the winner of the tournament
14:51:21 <mroman_> which is always a for some random reason
14:51:29 <mroman_> !blsq 121 0 50rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_:soz[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:-][~
14:51:29 <blsqbot> 'c
14:51:34 <mroman_> hm there we go
14:52:55 <mroman_> now with rematches
14:53:00 <mroman_> !blsq 121 0 50rn2co"abcdef"Jcp:U_z[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:-][~
14:53:00 <blsqbot> 'c
14:53:16 <mroman_> I hate Burlesque :(
14:53:21 <mroman_> this code is too bloaty
14:54:22 <mroman_> !blsq 121 0 50rn2co"abcdef"cp:U_z[{p^J>]Fi!!}m[f:-][~
14:54:22 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
14:54:27 <mroman_> what's that J doing there again?
14:54:44 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"cp:U_:so
14:54:44 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (f[) Invalid arguments!
14:54:53 <mroman_> !blsq "abc"cp:U_
14:54:53 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (f[) Invalid arguments!
14:54:58 <mroman_> ah
14:55:00 <mroman_> for the cross product
14:55:26 <mroman_> cp:U_ should be Cp or something
14:55:41 <mroman_> and cp:U_:so should be cP
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15:01:27 <mroman_> {p^}m[ is so common it should be a builtin as well
15:05:09 <fizzie> mroman_: TIL that it's better to do #S at the end of a program instead of wrapping the thing around ,[...]p^ when it's a no-input-just-output problem that needs a p^ at the end.
15:05:38 <mroman_> `? TIL
15:05:39 <HackEgo> TIL? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:06:07 <AndoDaan> yeah, i've been doing that
15:06:20 <oerjan> `addquote <mroman_> piece of cake doing this stuff in Burlesque :P [19 lines later] <mroman_> I hate Burlesque :(
15:06:21 <HackEgo> 1223) <mroman_> piece of cake doing this stuff in Burlesque :P [19 lines later] <mroman_> I hate Burlesque :(
15:06:33 <AndoDaan> such a relief to find somthing to get rid of that damn 21 3 4
15:06:51 <AndoDaan> thing anarchy golf does.
15:07:12 <oerjan> `learn TIL that TIL means Today I Learned
15:07:14 <HackEgo> I knew that.
15:07:27 <oerjan> possibly overly accurate for the wisdom
15:10:15 <mroman_> I might do some retro-projects in the future rather than extending Burlesque
15:10:33 <mroman_> like... writing an emulator, then write an assembler for it, then write a compiler for that assembler
15:10:37 <mroman_> then write an os for that
15:10:43 <mroman_> something like that
15:11:23 <mroman_> and maybe ask shinh to put the emulator on anagol
15:11:27 <mroman_> so I can golf in it .
15:11:34 <oerjan> i don't see how any of that is incompatible with burlesque hth
15:11:45 <mroman_> are you trying to mock me? ;)
15:12:04 <oerjan> of course not (hides `addquote above)
15:12:58 <mroman_> It's probably as useless as Burlesque doing something like I just said
15:13:26 <mroman_> but since there's nothing useful I can do
15:13:30 <mroman_> what are my options
15:16:35 <oerjan> tap dancing
15:16:52 <mroman_> right
15:21:08 <mroman_> Studies Conclude Hands-Free-calling and Apple Siri Distract Drivers
15:21:12 <mroman_> pff
15:21:18 <mroman_> My studies show farting distracts drivers.
15:21:27 <mroman_> Not as much as sneezing but still.
15:21:33 <mroman_> It also distracts the passengers.
15:21:41 <mroman_> Farting distracts drivers and passengers.
15:22:44 <mroman_> also insects
15:23:08 <mroman_> If you happen to have a insect-phobia and you're on the highway and a wasp flies over your face
15:23:16 <mroman_> that's probably really distracting as well.
15:24:07 <mroman_> much more if it stings you
15:24:14 <mroman_> which made be even worse if you're allergic to it
15:24:17 <mroman_> *might
15:24:39 <oerjan> those wicked wasps
15:24:52 <mroman_> How can I get money to make my own distraction studies?
15:25:39 <mroman_> (also who volunteers to get stung in the face by a wasp while driving in a simulator?)
15:26:15 <mroman_> Car safety is really interesting
15:26:22 <mroman_> you're not supposed to drive while being tired
15:26:32 <mroman_> obviously even if you're tired you still have to get to work
15:26:46 <mroman_> and your boss frankly doesn't care about car safety then
15:27:05 <mroman_> you're also not supposed to drive while on certain medications
15:27:16 <mroman_> even if it's just something against a headache
15:27:31 <oerjan> no one's ever managed to get through the path for getting money to make distraction studies.
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15:29:12 <GeorgeEpicGen> Hai
15:29:20 <oerjan> `relcome GeorgeEpicGen
15:29:20 <HackEgo> GeorgeEpicGen: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:29:35 <elliott_> hi
15:29:39 <GeorgeEpicGen> @Hackego I just came from there
15:29:39 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
15:29:51 <GeorgeEpicGen> I submitted a language I made in 2 days
15:31:08 <oerjan> HackEgo is a bot. also accidentally starting lines with symbols is not recommended in this channel.
15:31:39 <GeorgeEpicGen> Okay, sure
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16:22:19 <quintopia> http://phpthegoodparts.tumblr.com/
16:25:04 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin.
16:29:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40588&oldid=40584 * Quintopia * (+89) Added categories. Did not add "BF deriv" because it seems quite different
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16:45:16 <myname> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/2hpzpu/announcing_needle_asciified_arrow_notation/ was this discused here?
16:48:06 <Taneb> Finally actually set up my desk.
16:48:14 <Taneb> Realised that my DVI cable is too short ;(
16:50:24 <Bicyclidine> make one yourself out of copper
16:50:28 <elliott_> myname: yikes
16:50:33 <elliott_> sadly arrows aren't very nice
16:52:40 <Bicyclidine> "Hopefully this is a lot clearer." lmao
16:52:49 <J_Arcane> http://imgur.com/vPWIl4B
16:53:04 <Bicyclidine> ahahaha they reinvented graphical programming, good job
16:53:12 <Bicyclidine> or whatever it's called. whatever max/msp is
16:54:07 <elliott_> well, this kind of 2d arrow notation was in the original arrows paper
16:54:12 <Bicyclidine> what's it got to do with arrows though, it's just a buncha compositions
16:54:32 <elliott_> it's desugaring to arrow methods.
16:54:36 <elliott_> (->) just happens to be an arrow.
16:54:47 <Bicyclidine> good stuff
16:55:23 <quintopia> the reddit comments remind me of Funciton
16:55:30 <Bicyclidine> well, anyway it looks like arrows are from 2000 and max/msp came out in the late eighties. how many DJs know haskell, rough estimate
16:56:07 <elliott_> I mean max/msp isn't the only graphical programming thing in the unievrse.
16:56:08 <elliott_> *universe
16:56:17 <Bicyclidine> yeah but it's the one whose producing company has the coolest name
16:56:39 <Bicyclidine> i mean, what, you gonna do LabVIEW? fuck that, no style at all
16:56:58 <Bicyclidine> http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/201104/labview.jpg the future of haskell imo
16:57:07 <elliott_> Bicyclidine: re djs and haskell, http://yaxu.org/
16:57:11 <Bicyclidine> no, wait, there's a "pause" in there, i bet that's a side effet
16:57:12 <Bicyclidine> ct
16:57:14 <elliott_> some very very cool haskell-based livecoding music stuff
16:57:34 <elliott_> incl. some graphical programming stuff akin to max
16:57:55 <Bicyclidine> honestly it mostly reminds me of sicp
16:58:04 <Bicyclidine> also some pretty unpleasant experiences with nonlinear circuits D:
16:58:06 <Bicyclidine> brb
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17:05:40 <J_Arcane> http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2014/press.html
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17:08:14 <elliott_> huh, so electronics never had blue blinkenlights before the 90s?
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17:25:24 <Bike> how often were LEDs in blinkenlights anyways
17:30:03 <mroman_> oerjan shood GeorgeEpicGen away
17:30:16 <mroman_> *shooed
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17:31:32 <mroman_> oh wait
17:31:38 <mroman_> I gotta buy me a finnish book
17:31:46 <mroman_> this better be worth it
17:33:46 <mroman_> hu
17:33:51 <mroman_> there's a book "divorce in finnish"
17:33:52 <mroman_> oh no
17:33:54 <mroman_> that's a DVD
17:38:02 <mroman_> alright. done
17:41:42 <mroman_> luckily I'm rich enough to buy expensive books
17:41:43 <Taneb> ...my university's Scandinavian Society is having a trip to IKEA
17:43:00 <Bike> snort
17:43:31 <elliott_> `addquote <Taneb> ...my university's Scandinavian Society is having a trip to IKEA
17:43:32 <HackEgo> 1224) <Taneb> ...my university's Scandinavian Society is having a trip to IKEA
17:43:45 <elliott_> Bike: well, I mean blinkenlights in consumer electronics.
17:43:54 <elliott_> I'm pretty sure, e.g. routers usually use LEDs?
17:44:02 <Bike> oh
17:44:14 <Bike> now that you mention it i don't think i've seen a router with blue leds. green and red, orange, but...
17:44:29 <Bike> part of that is just the conventions of what colors mean though.
17:44:31 <elliott_> I've seen a router with blue lights. can't say whether it uses LEDs.
17:44:46 <elliott_> it might use blue gnomes.
17:45:01 <Bike> deep
17:45:15 <Taneb> http://www.yusu.org/whats-on/event/5593
17:46:04 <elliott_> have to experience authentic indigineous scandinavian culture
17:46:42 <Jafet> Enjoy the authentic scandinavian food
17:46:50 <Taneb> I think most of the members are people from scandinavian countries
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17:47:23 <Taneb> Although I almost ended up in I think the lithuanian society
17:47:25 <Taneb> (no idea how)
17:49:31 <mroman_> the next essies will be held in Finnland
17:50:47 <fizzie> But when?
17:51:25 <fizzie> Bike: I think my VDSL2 box has blue leds.
17:51:28 <fizzie> Bike: It's relatively new, though.
17:52:04 <quintopia> i would be down to have a world esoteric languages convention. we all kind of know each other anyway. only probably is we also know that most of us could never travel that far
17:52:07 <quintopia> *problem
17:52:56 <mroman_> 2015 something
17:53:03 <mroman_> when's it hot in finnland :D?
17:53:17 <quintopia> in the summer
17:54:03 <fizzie> If it's 2015, it's semi-likely I won't be in Finland to attend to it. :/
17:54:31 <fizzie> Also the VDSL2 box has green actual status leds, but there's a (useless) blue overall "I'm powered up" rounded-rectangle light.
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18:11:16 <quintopia> not as well as i'd like
18:12:34 <J_Arcane> Oooh. I didn't know about this. https://github.com/NICTA/course
18:13:34 <quintopia> neat
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18:46:33 <FireFly> Oh, that's useful
18:48:10 <J_Arcane> I love these sorts of test-driven exercises. The koans are great, for the most part.
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20:18:18 <fizzie> MS Word experts here? I need to fill a .docx form, and it has these N-cell fields that I can't really use, but if I try to "merge cells", the row height goes completely bizarre and can't be dragged back down.
20:22:17 <fizzie> Well, I did find some sort of table properties -> row height -> "at least" -> "is exactly", which maybe helped.
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20:38:07 <mroman_> quintopia: I'm a computer nerd that is quite sporty ;)
20:38:26 <mroman_> ex-climber, ex-ninjitsu and ex-parkour among other things
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21:06:21 <mroman_> and currently living in a mental health institution
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21:11:31 <mroman_> and I've just ordered some finnish learn materials
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21:19:36 <mroman_> there are missionaries in finnland
21:19:37 <mroman_> wth
21:29:08 <Taneb> mroman_, gotta convert them savages
21:29:27 <mroman_> yeah
21:29:35 <mroman_> they must practice some weird kind of nordish cult
21:29:44 <mroman_> assumingly with animal sacrificies and what not
21:30:04 <mroman_> maybe they worship squirrels
21:30:11 <mroman_> or is it squirell
21:30:46 <mroman_> so the christian community has to send missionaries to convert them
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21:31:15 <mroman_> I don't know squat about finnland to be honest
21:31:26 <mroman_> From what I've heard the sun rarely visits the country
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21:38:43 <fizzie> oerjan: <oerjan> 236 is a bit long for a golf maybe so I made a (currently) 427-byte Forth solution
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22:25:15 <oerjan> fizzie: OKAY
22:25:36 * oerjan had another idea for shortening it which didn't work.
22:26:35 <oerjan> one annoying thing about it being this long is that it's too awkward to put on just one line, which means i cannot see at a glance whether it actually _is_ shorter.
22:27:45 <fizzie> (It's 407 now.)
22:52:36 <FreeFull> Braingolf
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23:10:39 <madbr> ok I think I've figured the ideal set of limitations for a simple computer architecture project
23:11:37 <madbr> Use 512k of DRAM, 16bits, with a constant memory cycle at about 4mhz (so 8mhz with 2 wait states, 12mhz with 3 wait states etc)
23:13:33 <madbr> input uses the same scheme as the NES and SNES - the keys have a generic parallel to serial chip, and the system sends a "read" pulse (to read the controller state), the 8 or 16 more "shift" pulses (to read each one of the buttons serially). This only requires 2 output lines and 1 input line
23:15:02 <madbr> storage uses SD card flash, which only requires 3 or 4 pins (and has a spi mode which should keep things simple)
23:15:58 <madbr> the video output hardware outputs directly to NTSC and is containted on the same chip as the cpu (presumably an FPGA)
23:17:06 <madbr> the cpu is designed to be efficient with a 16bit memory bus and is a small RISC with 32bit registers but 16bit opcodes (just like superH or ARM thumb), with 16 registers
23:17:35 <madbr> also it shares DRAM cycles with the video hardware
23:17:53 <madbr> DRAM refresh is done by the video hardware on HBLANK cycles
23:18:49 <madbr> video hardware also does sound output by reading from sound data in ram during HBLANK cycles (just like the commodore AMIGA)
23:19:28 <madbr> and is reduced to 1 bit at a high clock rate so that the L and R channels can be output on a single pin (with a capacitor+resistor filter)
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23:21:17 <madbr> the whole thing is a main chip (cpu + video hw) with about 48 pins, 512k of slow 16bit DRAM, an SD card, and a controller (which has some kind of button matrix and an couple off the shelf parallel-to-serial chips)
23:21:55 <madbr> and a few analog components (resistor+capacitor filters/DACs) for the left sound channel, right sound channel and NTSC video out
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23:22:58 <madbr> there is no 3d rendering capacity (not fast enough)
23:27:42 <zzo38> I don't know much about working of Amiga
23:28:38 <zzo38> But I like the way the Famicom does all of the things
23:29:47 <madbr> yeah this is way more amiga
23:30:01 <madbr> actually it has some similarities to SNES too
23:31:52 <zzo38> I mostly just know the Amiga .MOD music format, although I know Amiga does more; there is video editing software for Amiga too, as I have seen.
23:33:43 <madbr> amiga is actually super influential
23:34:00 <madbr> basically the PC is horrible and is designed against games
23:34:17 <madbr> it simply eventually got fast enough to ignore its braindead design
23:34:36 <Bike> remind me to tell you about dna polymerase sometime
23:34:44 <madbr> the Mac is actually even more horrible and was actually worse than PC
23:35:00 <madbr> like, horrible enough that they had to reboot it (osx)
23:35:15 <Bike> windows did that too...
23:35:26 <madbr> Windows has windows 95
23:36:14 <madbr> which did... that pretty much yes
23:36:23 <Bike> i meant NT
23:36:39 <madbr> dude, 95 is like 100 times bigger
23:36:52 <elliott_> 95 still ran under DOS.
23:37:04 <elliott_> NT was a completely new kernel; it was huge, architecturally.
23:37:16 <madbr> elliott_ : yes but it forced everything to 32 bits
23:37:29 <madbr> and to modern memory management
23:37:44 <madbr> and protected mode, paging, real multitasking etc
23:38:02 <madbr> NT simply took out the shit they had to keep to keep DOS and windows16 programs working
23:38:14 <elliott_> uh, I think 16-bit programs still ran after NT.
23:38:29 <elliott_> I've seen people run, like, the Windows 1 calculator on XP.
23:38:32 <madbr> well, yeah but they took out all the craziest dos shit
23:38:35 <zzo38> Yes the PC isn't a very good design, especially the new PC designs are pretty bad too.
23:38:38 <madbr> which is want makes it cleaner
23:38:58 <madbr> PC had the 386 which fixed the real design mistakes of the instuction set
23:38:59 <Bike> this only strengthens my resolve to compute solely in trefunge
23:39:14 <madbr> and windows95 which fixed the horrible DOS crud (eventually)
23:39:31 <zzo38> I happen to like the Nintendo Famicom design.
23:39:33 <elliott_> anyway, NT is far more comparable to OS X, if that's the analogy gone for here.
23:39:48 <zzo38> It is slow, and limited, but still pretty good design compared to much other things.
23:40:00 <Bike> i kind of wish i could use the ricoh 2a03 as an example of something
23:40:01 <elliott_> OS X maintained the same essential user experience while completely replacing the internals with a new kernel designed for modularity and stability. that's a perfect description of NT
23:40:02 <Bike> it's just so hilarious
23:40:32 <zzo38> Bike: Well, 2A03 is a combination of a 6502 CPU with decimal mode logic cut off, and a APU.
23:40:44 <madbr> elliott_ : NT runs the same binaries as 96
23:40:45 <madbr> uh
23:40:46 <madbr> elliott_ : NT runs the same binaries as 95
23:41:03 <madbr> osx doesn't
23:41:22 <elliott_> sure. 95 could run older programs, too, and OS X has Carbon, and also ran Classic programs via emulation for a long time
23:41:42 <elliott_> (and Carbon is a direct descendent of the Mac OS Classic APIs)
23:41:51 <elliott_> no they're not literally identical, but OS X is definitely the closest analogue to NT
23:42:02 <zzo38> I wonder if anyone can make new Famicom CPU/PPU chips by duplicating the mask image?
23:42:29 <madbr> zzo38 : I think it's small enough that they can emulate the cpu from the mask
23:42:42 <madbr> elliott_ : NT only replaced the internals
23:43:06 <Sgeo> If I want to learn about OS kernels, where should I start? Learning about Linux, or Windows, or something else
23:43:07 <madbr> OSX replaced like everything
23:43:08 <elliott_> I lost interest in this arguent five minutes ago.
23:43:11 <elliott_> *argument
23:43:12 <zzo38> madbr: Well, I want to ensure that it works precisely the same, including any obscure things, unofficial instructions, electrical specifics (including having to do with cartridge), etc
23:43:25 <Bike> Sgeo: maybe write a filesystem
23:43:31 <elliott_> 95 didn't replace /everything/ either, so if you want something completely revolutionary it doesn't fit just as much as NT doesn't.
23:43:41 <Sgeo> I just want to read, not write.
23:43:49 <elliott_> Sgeo: writing your own is the best way to learn about them, probably. osdev.org
23:43:50 <madbr> Sgeo : win32 or linux, or any other similar modern paged memory-time sharing system
23:43:56 <elliott_> or at least reading a hobbyist kernel
23:44:05 <elliott_> you don't want to study linux because it's a gigantic complicated mess
23:44:10 <elliott_> at least minix or something. there's books, even.
23:44:18 <madbr> elliott_ : yeah but win95 was basically structurally sound
23:44:22 <Bike> i like practicing things.
23:44:26 <elliott_> (not a monolithic vs. microkernel thing; just a linux being a complex mess thing)
23:44:33 <madbr> they could have kept it indefinitely
23:44:54 <madbr> they probably would have regretted it (ok they did do ME) but it was tenable, basically
23:45:15 <madbr> pre-OSX mac os was not tenable
23:45:18 <zzo38> I have seen the diagrams of all calls and stuff in Linux and Windows; Linux is really complicated and Windows is even more really complicatd than Linux.
23:45:28 <madbr> like, it still had memory compaction
23:45:38 <Bike> yesterday some people from Garmin were recruiting and i found out they have an os development division of some kind
23:45:48 <elliott_> yeah their gpses run a custom OS I think
23:45:51 <Bike> which is a bit unexpected given that i only know them from car GPS...
23:45:55 <elliott_> probably based on one of the standard embedded kernels though
23:45:56 <madbr> you didn't even have real pointers, you had handles and the OS could move around your memory blocks
23:46:20 <madbr> a holdback from the original Mac that had tiny ram and no MMU so they had no choice
23:46:28 <elliott_> madbr: tbh that's more modern in some sense, considering copying GCs and the like :p
23:46:29 <madbr> but it was still there in mac os9
23:46:37 <elliott_> not in the implementation in classic mac os of course. but in principle
23:46:43 <madbr> no, modern is malloc()
23:46:49 <madbr> and paging
23:47:00 <elliott_> (and actually OS X does memory compression thanks to virtual memory these days)
23:47:09 <madbr> yeah but it's transparent
23:47:19 <madbr> and it uses the paging system to hide it
23:47:46 <madbr> like, classic mac os has no paging
23:48:52 <madbr> also it still had a whole bunch of emulated 68000 code for the longest time
23:49:00 <madbr> even after the PPC move
23:49:22 <elliott_> sure, yeah. it was awful
23:49:36 <elliott_> it was also cooperatively multitasked right until the end, I think
23:50:01 <madbr> like, that's why they were losing from about when windows 95 was out, until they fixed that mess with OSX
23:50:21 <pikhq> madbr: Unfortunately, they had numerous abortive efforts to switch away from that.
23:50:26 <madbr> yes
23:50:33 <madbr> and OSX is the one that worked
23:50:41 <pikhq> The world would be kinda interesting if A/UX took off.
23:51:12 <pikhq> Wasn't there some 68000 code in Mac OS to the very end?
23:51:23 <madbr> yeah I think so
23:51:37 <zzo38> I have read about the possibility of FPGA that can reprogram itself, as well as the ability to use open-source toolkits with it (and therefore, also not being limited to x86-based computers), by using microbitstream composition; this may also make it easier to even write program for programming FPGA inside of the Famicom itself, maybe.
23:52:07 <madbr> zzo38 : the point of using a famicom architecture would be to run famicom games
23:52:10 <zzo38> (You would still need the vendor's tools to generate the microbitstream set for the specific model of FPGA you are using, but after that you can do it in a vendor-independent and open-source way)
23:52:21 <madbr> otherwise you'd probably want to use something cleaner and easier to write for
23:52:26 <elliott_> it's kind of impressive that apple have weathered two CPU architecture changes and one kernel change
23:52:27 <madbr> like the GBA or something like that
23:52:35 <zzo38> madbr: Well, I just think Famicom is a good architecture and I do write programs for Famicom.
23:52:44 <pikhq> Course, it was never *not* able to run 68000 code...
23:52:47 <madbr> elliott_ : it's not just a kernel change, it's basically a different OS... but yeah :D
23:52:51 <elliott_> and carbon isn't even totally dead yet
23:52:55 <pikhq> It's kinda sad in a way that they finally dropped Classic.
23:53:00 <elliott_> madbr: yeah, but a lot of the APIs carried over
23:53:13 <elliott_> it wasn't totally foreign, to start with. it moved away significantly with cocoa of course.
23:53:21 <madbr> elliott_ : you could say that about win16 vs win32
23:53:33 <elliott_> I bet you can port a very old mac program to carbon that will run today without too many changes if it's simple enough.
23:53:54 <Bike> marathon was totes simple, do tha
23:53:55 <Bike> t
23:53:57 <pikhq> The same is true of Win16 code.
23:54:19 <pikhq> Shit, if you're running it on x86 you can go and *run* Windows 1 apps.
23:54:19 <elliott_> sure, never denied that
23:54:40 <elliott_> windows hasn't gone through two big cpu architecture changes though :p
23:54:42 <madbr> elliott_ : a win32 program made in 1995 still runs
23:54:48 <madbr> as a binary
23:54:49 <elliott_> (x86-64 doesn't count)
23:54:55 <pikhq> elliott_: They tried though. :P
23:54:55 <Bike> how's roller coaster tycoon do
23:55:17 <pikhq> Windows NT wasn't developed on the x86, it was ported.
23:55:27 <elliott_> what did they develop it on again? alpha or something?
23:55:31 <madbr> I'm not convinced the 68k->ppc change was a good idea
23:55:47 <pikhq> It was some obscure Intel RISC thing.
23:55:55 <elliott_> that was intentional so it'd be portable, right?
23:55:58 <pikhq> Yes.
23:56:01 <elliott_> I'm not sure they intended to deploy it widely on that architceture
23:56:01 <madbr> i960?
23:56:26 <pikhq> elliott_: They strongly intended to deploy on not-x86, they just weren't sure what.
23:56:36 <zzo38> You can still run many Famicom programs on GBA, though; the program PocketNES will run a lot of them that use only the standard gamepad, at least; programs that require keyboard, light gun, tape, drawing tablet, etc of course won't work, nor will it work if it is an unimplemented mapper.
23:56:42 <elliott_> all hail itanium
23:56:52 <madbr> ha itanium
23:57:10 <madbr> that's the one that never got faster than the stupid x86 designs right? :D
23:57:11 <pikhq> madbr: Ah, the i860.
23:57:21 <madbr> pikhq : woaa
23:57:59 <madbr> I guess the i860 was good... as a lesson
23:58:04 <elliott_> madbr: x86 designs are pretty advanced :p
23:58:08 <elliott_> I think itanium wasn't as bad as it looked
23:58:15 <elliott_> and that compilers got better and maybe the actual chip got better?
23:58:20 <elliott_> but it still wasn't massively impressive.
23:58:29 <madbr> the stupid pentium2 has killed so many architectures
23:58:46 <madbr> and has evolved into the ridiculous behemoth it is now
23:59:39 <elliott_> really, it would be nice if 64-bit killed x86.
23:59:43 <madbr> basically to be the fastest now you have to do out of order speculative memory access
23:59:51 <elliott_> unfortunately itanium didn't and let x86-64 happen
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