←2014-08-13 2014-08-14 2014-08-15→ ↑2014 ↑all
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01:33:20 <quintopia> what an exciting day in esoteric
01:43:01 <coppro> it is an exciting day!
01:43:09 <coppro> everything here is doing something more exciting than chatting here
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03:37:51 <quintopia> not me
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03:51:19 <coppro> i dunno, go watch people play video games
03:51:37 <zzo38> Or, to play the game by yourself
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05:17:51 <quintopia> i'll play the game with zzo38
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06:26:14 <Sgeo> Python is heading towards static type checking?
06:26:57 <Sgeo> Oh, not part of CPython
06:28:53 <Sgeo> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2014-August/028618.html
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07:22:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40283&oldid=40005 * Rdebath * (+39) /* Optimizing implementations */
07:45:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40284&oldid=40283 * 81.84.26.109 * (+132) Add my brainfuck interpreter
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08:23:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40285&oldid=38193 * Quintopia * (+7) /* Power Series */ punctuation
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08:52:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40286&oldid=40272 * Rdebath * (-9565) Delete sandbox
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13:13:31 <TieSoul> Hey guys
13:14:27 <TieSoul> If anyone feels like decrypting some extremely obfuscated Ruby code, I made this https://gist.githubusercontent.com/TieSoul/08f0642d90b29310ba4e/raw/d9fab88899f7f4566d248ee17bcc46bd6bc59bb6/obf
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13:38:08 <nooodl> pff too many alphanumeric characters left in there
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13:39:06 <nooodl> any ruby program can be rewritten using only punctuation you know! like perl
13:41:13 <fizzie> Or JavaScript.
13:44:22 <nooodl> jeez i don't remember where i read about this :(
13:45:23 <TieSoul> But can you see what it does? :P
13:45:31 <nooodl> this is related though http://shinh.skr.jp/obf/sym_poly_quine.txt
13:45:40 <nooodl> ruby-perl-js punctuation polyglot quine
13:46:17 <TieSoul> damn
13:50:23 <ais523> the hard part with that sort of quine is the first few characters
13:50:34 <ais523> after that it's not so bad
13:51:13 <ais523> it seems to exploit the fact that $_ is a valid variable name in all three languages
13:51:26 <ais523> possibly the only one that is, in fact
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13:55:59 <nooodl> !tell ais523 $__ $___ $____... are valid in all three as well
13:56:01 <EgoBot> ais523: $__: $___: $____...: are: valid: in: all: three: as: well:
13:56:11 <nooodl> er
13:56:15 <nooodl> @tell ais523 $__ $___ $____... are valid in all three as well
13:56:15 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
13:57:26 <fizzie> Heh, that !tell is the best.
13:59:33 <nooodl> i'm not sure what's going on there
13:59:42 <nooodl> what does EgoBot's do
13:59:48 <fizzie> Something silly.
14:00:20 <fizzie> !show tell
14:00:20 <EgoBot> sh xargs printf "%s: "; sed 's/.*# *//g' interps/$1
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14:03:43 <fizzie> I don't know.
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14:29:44 <TieSoul> I just spent the past, like, half-hour, dissecting my own obfuscated code :P
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14:33:16 <b_jonas> TieSoul: yeah, that happens
14:33:38 <b_jonas> it's better than spending hours to understnd your old non-obfuscated code
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14:37:14 <TieSoul> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/TieSoul/08f0642d90b29310ba4e/raw/d9fab88899f7f4566d248ee17bcc46bd6bc59bb6/obf First one to tell me what it does without running it wins :P
14:38:14 <TieSoul> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/TieSoul/7a66f3172198fdf7d57b/raw/f8f6a3abbe67166fffea1486be9e623abdacac26/obf.rb and here's another one :P
14:39:55 <TieSoul> it's ruby if you didn't notice
14:39:57 <TieSoul> :P
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15:13:55 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/show/7xgBf3mI9Qvllwd7q6h6/ translates any ruby program into one using only punctuation
15:14:19 <nooodl> example output http://bpaste.net/show/EclHWAT4CWo5TSnPLR06/
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16:21:56 <TieSoul> There are ones in the output.
16:27:45 <TieSoul> also the output programs are much too large
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16:28:20 <TieSoul> and literally just copy the characters in the source
16:28:24 <fizzie> Well, for the record, there's https://github.com/alcuadrado/hieroglyphy for the corresponding JavaScript operation.
16:29:41 <TieSoul> also the ruby thing breaks
16:30:12 <TieSoul> I just fed it my SNUSP interpreter and the output program threw a syntax error.
16:59:01 <b_jonas> feed it to a BANCStar interpreter instead
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17:53:24 <mroman> Somebody mentioned BANCStar \o/
17:53:25 <myndzi> |
17:53:25 <myndzi> |\
17:54:05 <mroman> !party
17:54:09 <mroman> hm
17:54:14 <shachaf> ^party
17:54:15 <mroman> `party
17:54:16 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: party: not found
17:54:18 <shachaf> hm
17:54:20 <mroman> ^party
17:54:23 <mroman> well
17:54:25 <mroman> NO PARTY THEN
17:54:26 <mroman> :(
17:54:48 <fizzie> ...
17:54:52 <fizzie> fungot, where are you?
17:54:53 <fungot> fizzie: ergo the " stop fnord" criterion involved. both of those
17:55:08 <fizzie> ^celebrate
17:55:08 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
17:55:09 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
17:55:09 <myndzi> |\ c.c >\ |\| | /< c.c >\ | /^\|/^\ c.c /|
17:55:09 <myndzi> (_|¯`¯|_) /'\
17:55:10 <myndzi> (_| |_)
17:55:29 <b_jonas> yay!
17:55:31 <fizzie> We don't party, we celebrate. It's more civilized.
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18:12:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AguedaKling * New user account
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18:20:09 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote prose
18:20:10 <HackEgo> 1138) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
18:24:01 <TieSoul_> is the ꙮ supposed to be a rectangle? :P
18:25:25 <Bike> `unidecode ꙮ
18:25:26 <HackEgo> ​[U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
18:25:54 <Bike> it rhymes, and if you assume the "cyrillic letter" bit isn't in, scans.
18:27:30 <TieSoul_> yeah, "I might use, in my prose, multiocular O's" does fit well.
18:28:24 <fizzie> It didn't render here either, but I deduced it was the multiocular O from the context.
18:28:39 <fizzie> The official mascot codepoint of #esoteric?
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18:37:16 <shachaf> i thought it was kmc's personal codepoint
18:44:17 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/XeDO I guess so
18:45:36 <Bike> haha
18:46:35 <b_jonas> mascot codepoint... hehe
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20:38:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40287&oldid=23603 * Rdebath * (-95) The implementation and current definition are not TC, though, what is 'recursive' supposed to mean?
20:53:13 <fizzie> That doesn't show it "NOT Turing complete", it just discombobulates the reduction of brainfuck to BrainCursion.
20:54:58 <fizzie> Or at the very least it skips quite a lot of steps.
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21:03:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40288&oldid=40287 * Fizzie * (+246) Proper proof/disproof of TC left as an exercise to next editor.
21:06:47 <myname> lol
21:07:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40289&oldid=40288 * Fizzie * (+50) /* Computational class */ Minor further clarification.
21:07:57 <fizzie> Er, that's not quite right, sorry about that.
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21:11:36 <int-e> Still, with conditional #(@...) and one loop (end the program with #%), this is quite obviously TC.
21:11:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40290&oldid=40289 * Fizzie * (-4) /* Computational class */ I will never edit again this tired.
21:13:00 <fizzie> I even wrote "BrainCopter" there temporarily. Today has not been a good day.
21:13:00 <int-e> oops
21:13:10 <int-e> I want (#@...), of course.
21:14:06 <int-e> And... I should not use ( at all.
21:14:17 <nooodl> braincopter
21:14:26 <fizzie> Yes. But you can use #@...) freely.
21:14:41 <int-e> right.
21:15:23 <fizzie> Perhaps that could be pointed out, I'm sure there's a sketch of a TC proof along those lines somewhere in the wiki.
21:16:25 <fizzie> I don't want to make any more edits, though; next time I'll call it BrunkSporsion or something. (I was so sure BrainCopter was an actual language, but apparently there's a limit even to BF derivatives.)
21:16:28 <nooodl> it's not really that obvious yet i don't think?
21:17:08 <fizzie> There are some languages with only the "entire program is one large loop" looping construct, and conditional execution inside.
21:17:16 <fizzie> Someone must've done the details for one of those.
21:17:53 <nooodl> yeah but to do pretty much anything inside that loop in brainfuck (e.g. so much as clear or move a cell!) you need nested loops
21:20:46 <int-e> nooodl: the basic pattern will be repeated blocks of #@...%)-, followed by #%. That gives you a goto program with 255 labels. You need some funny tricks to exploit the conditional in the '...' part, centered around @> following by some fixup code to realign the pointer.
21:21:17 <int-e> nooodl: of course there may well be something simpler.
21:21:42 <int-e> note that [-] becomes @-@-@-@-@-, so creating constants is not hard.
21:22:01 <int-e> hmm
21:22:05 <int-e> I'm mixing up @ and # here.
21:22:16 <int-e> so I mean #> and #-#-#-#-#-.
21:22:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: there are even some without conditional execution inside and they still work
21:22:52 <b_jonas> you have to simulate conditionals
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21:24:06 <fizzie> Here's an arguably even simpler construction: use the first K cells of the tape to encode a "current state" value in a 1-in-K encoding, and write the entire program in the form >+<( >#@aaaa) >#@bbbb) >#@cccc) {...} <<< #%) you have K labels and no fancy code.
21:24:44 <nooodl> do a minsky machine!
21:24:58 <int-e> fizzie: not quite, now you can only access a finite amount of memory.
21:25:18 <int-e> you need some trickery so the 'state' moves with the pointer
21:25:57 <fizzie> Mhm. Well, the "spec" doesn't mention whether the cells are bounded or not.
21:25:59 <int-e> (and that's why I wanted to use a single cell, which should be plenty to encode a universal machine, which is all we need)
21:26:34 <nooodl> i feel like this might be turing incomplete with bounded cells
21:27:11 <int-e> it's not essential that the state fits into a single cell either; you can interleave the "real" cells with blocks of zeros that are enough to hold a state.
21:27:33 <fizzie> I guess that works better, yes.
21:31:03 <fizzie> Anyway, #@...%)- blocks don't quite make a goto program with labels, because # will skip the @ and enter the block for any nonzero value, so it'd run all the blocks but one.
21:31:16 <fizzie> That's why I considered the 1-in-K version.
21:31:51 <int-e> true.
21:32:23 <int-e> #>#@...) looks like a viable alternative
21:32:48 <int-e> more precisely, #>#@ ... %)<
21:33:30 <fizzie> Wouldn't that still just skip both the > and @ for any nonzero state label?
21:33:41 <fizzie> And happily proceed down to ....
21:34:29 <int-e> Sigh. Ok, once more: #<>#@ ... %)<
21:34:45 <int-e> (testing a cell that is followed by a cell holding 0)
21:35:36 <fizzie> That seems reasonable. You can easily use only every third cell for real data, anyway.
21:38:44 <fizzie> I'll summarize this to the discussion page for someone to write it up.
21:50:05 <int-e> hmpf, the interpreter is an exe file.
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21:56:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BrainCursion]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40291 * Fizzie * (+1096) Summarize interesting TC discussion on #esoteric.
21:56:46 <fizzie> Given my track record for today, that probably contains something badly enough wrong to set the server on fire.
21:57:25 <fizzie> Oh yes; #-#-#-... is not a zero idiom, since it will skip the -s if nonzero. I keep getting that the wrong way around.
21:58:49 <int-e> right. doesn't matter :)
22:01:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40292&oldid=40291 * Fizzie * (+56) /* TC proof sketch */ Avoid a cell-zeroing idiom that's not.
22:01:23 <fizzie> Well, in the interests of correctness.
22:02:01 <oerjan> <fizzie> I don't want to make any more edits, though; next time I'll call it BrunkSporsion or something. (I was so sure BrainCopter was an actual language, but apparently there's a limit even to BF derivatives.) <-- um there is, except without the camelcase.
22:02:15 <fizzie> Yes, I found that out later.
22:02:42 <fizzie> (So I guess there's no limit to BF derivatives; all is well in the world.)
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22:10:39 <Taneb> It's weird hanging out with people who are into crypto, when I know next to nothing on the subject
22:11:16 <Taneb> Like, "Didn't that cypher have 56 bits of entropy" [raucous laughter]
22:11:27 <Taneb> Then there's me sat there not having a clue what's going on
22:14:47 <oerjan> reminds me of that joke about the guys numbering their jokes
22:15:53 <Taneb> A little of that
22:16:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40293&oldid=40292 * Fizzie * (+101) /* TC proof sketch */ I'm having a competition: how many bugs can you fit in a snippet this short.
22:16:19 <Taneb> But more that I feel like an outsider, like, I know some of the words but I don't get the jokes
22:16:28 <Taneb> Or know quite what's going on
22:16:45 <Phantom__Hoover> well the entropy joke seems fairly easy to reverse-engineer
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22:36:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40294&oldid=40293 * Fizzie * (-36) /* TC proof sketch */ Actually, that was overcomplicated as anything; simplify a whole lot.
22:37:03 <fizzie> Now I'm really done with it.
22:40:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40295&oldid=40294 * Fizzie * (+73) /* TC proof sketch */ Fix the halting test to conform to simplified form.
22:40:14 <fizzie> I need to wake up and go rent a car in four hours, why am I not stopping.
22:40:57 <oerjan> procrastinapping
22:41:21 <int-e> great idea, rent a car while drunk with sleep
22:42:00 <fizzie> We've booked everything, that's the way it's gots to go.
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23:40:44 <int-e> @tell fizzie Here is a full reduction from brainfuck to BrainCursion: http://sprunge.us/TJPQ?py
23:40:44 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:45:19 <int-e> @tell fizzie (If cells are limited to 0..255, it will work for programs containing up to 127 loops.)
23:45:19 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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