00:07:04 true 00:07:08 and the wii u 00:07:44 well, depends on how you define alive, there :P 00:09:33 but in 5 years when someone comes up with a new architecture, is it going to be little or big endian? :D 00:10:01 back then there were many more influential big endian architectures (68k, mips) 00:10:08 now it's down to power 00:11:39 what endianness is the Mill? 00:11:43 sony and microsoft switched to x86 right? 00:11:48 yes 00:12:16 I wonder if there is any technical advantage to big endian on the architectural level 00:12:30 it's pretty clearly worse for assembly up 00:12:45 madbr: oh and network order is big-endian 00:12:48 so it's always going to be relevant 00:13:53 I just always use ASCII filename anyways and require program I write to always require input to be ASCII filenames too, therefore avoiding any such problem. 00:14:06 I, too, solve problems by ignoring them 00:14:21 elliott : but then that's probably never going to be in code that has to be fast 00:14:46 Non-ASCII filenames are a bad idea anyways. 00:14:48 by now most performance sensitive code is floating point anyways 00:14:54 madbr: you don't think high performance matters for network code? sure it's going to be IO-bound, but ignoring CPU cost hurts scalability 00:15:06 you just said it 00:15:09 it's IO bound 00:15:17 yes, that sentence has two parts though. 00:15:19 also it's full of loads, stores and jumps 00:15:27 you should see the amount of work people put into optimising HTTP parsing 00:15:29 it's never going to be performance relevant 00:15:48 that one article about O times being obsolete is all about caching versus network code... 00:16:06 any code that deals with this is going to be limited by memory loads or branch mispredictions 00:16:29 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:16:50 so it doesn't matter if you lose 5 cycles shifting data around because that's 5 cycles where the cpu is waiting on the cache/ram 00:16:50 Filenames with spaces are also a bit bad idea, and with control characters. 00:17:01 madbr: anyway, I have no idea what at all the relevance of performance-sensitivity is 00:17:08 given that the original topic was endianness of UTF-16 filenames 00:17:08 simple 00:17:19 performance wasn't even mentioned 00:17:33 if you're not in performance oriented code endianness doesn't even matter 00:17:43 you just shift around the bytes if you're in the wrong endian 00:18:01 00:28:49 don't worry. some utf16 is garanteed to creep in. good lock with endianness! 00:18:04 00:29:12 doesn't matter, almost all big endian platforms are dead 00:18:16 my point is it does matter because big endian is here to stay (e.g. because network order) 00:18:21 you can't just dismiss endianness concerns 00:18:24 this has nothing to do with performance 00:18:26 Many libraries insist on UTF-8 filenames, some programs use other codepages, but generally in all cases ASCII is a subset of such thing, therefore it work better. 00:18:50 elliott: if power falls out of relevance, all new architectures will be little endian 00:19:16 but architectures are not the only things that can make endianness relevant... 00:19:31 madbr: I am not so sure. MMIX is big-endian. 00:19:48 if all architectures are little endian then there's no point to big endian utf-16 00:20:04 though tbh there's barely any point to utf-16 at all anyways 00:20:19 Although I do think small-endian is better. 00:20:41 I don't care about requiring the endianness for the purpose of parsing UTF-16. 00:21:39 unicode byte order marks are stupid and whoever came up with that idea should be hit 00:21:51 s/byte order marks // 00:22:02 madbr: but there are reasons things would be big endian even if all architectures are little endian 00:22:23 legacy format here and there yes 00:22:30 again, the network byte order is big endian, so it is ubiquitous. (though I guess in e.g. HTTP or whatever, use of UTF-16 specifies endianness explicitly) 00:22:43 you think the standard network byte order qualifies as legacy...? 00:22:47 yes 00:23:03 legacy doesn't mean it's out of use 00:23:13 okay. then I define everything on your computer as legacy and therefore completely irrelevant 00:23:23 well 00:23:51 in this case I mean as in "If it was defined yesterday morning it would've been little endian. but it wasn't" 00:24:08 so not legacy as more like a legacy decision 00:24:13 well, we are always shackled by the past. 00:25:47 -!- MDude has joined. 00:25:58 I've written code with 00:26:30 #ifdef BIG_ENDIAN #error Fix this #endif 00:26:50 I don't expect to be going through that code any time soon 00:26:56 C code should never depend on endianness anyways. 00:27:33 stuff like explicit casting to bytes is dumb when bitwise ops say what you actually mean, compile identically, and are inherently portable (the operations you are doing on the values has nothing to do with your computer's internal representation of data) 00:27:43 would happen less often if there was a sensible way of reading shorts/ints from a raw byte stream 00:28:18 If you have the correct preprocessor symbols you can use them to compile a shorter kind of code in one case than the other 00:28:34 elliott : essentially it's a file load/store issue 00:29:06 once it's inside C++ values then of course it's in the architecture's natural byte order and everything is fine 00:29:21 madbr: it is not 00:29:34 madbr: http://commandcenter.blogspot.be/2012/04/byte-order-fallacy.html 00:29:45 there is no reason to depend on architecture endianness for load/store operations, ever 00:29:54 it is more complicated, less clear, less portable, and no faster 00:30:21 and the code that depends on endianness can fail to work for reasons unrelated to endianness 00:30:24 i = (data[0]<<0) | (data[1]<<8) | (data[2]<<16) | (data[3]<<24); 00:30:26 is correct 00:30:30 and also hard to read 00:30:53 if that's hard to read, you have no business processing files with bits in them. 00:31:07 especially because that can become a single read_uint16 function or whatever. 00:31:18 that's what happens usually 00:31:29 -!- sambora has joined. 00:31:29 except every program has its own definition of those 00:31:38 because they never made it to the standard library 00:32:06 also there's the people that use #pragma pack 00:32:29 and essentially use a structure definition to essentially define a data loading format 00:33:29 but because the gcc guys and msvc are too stupid to agree on anything this involves multiple macros (one for gcc one of msvc) 00:34:02 plus of course an extra "bit reverse everything" function for when you end up having to do a big endian port 00:34:15 And the data can contain not only endianness and number of different sizes, also pointers, and variable lists, etc. 00:34:32 it can't have pointers 00:34:36 what the heck, that ain't hard to read 00:34:36 it's data from a file 00:34:49 bike: for one value it's not 00:34:50 Of course C makes such serialization difficult, but some programming language (such as SQL) don't have this problem. 00:35:08 madbr: I know it doesn't, but due to the file format it might be variable and so on 00:35:11 sql, savior of us all 00:35:14 bike: once it turns into loading complex data files with dozens of values it turns into a mess 00:35:26 sure if you've never heard of functions or macros or anything 00:35:31 yeah iwas gonna say 00:35:34 abstract that shit bro 00:35:34 in which case, god help you and your format parser anyway, it's going to be hideous 00:35:51 Yes it is going to be a mess, when you have to change things too 00:36:24 I know that's the thing to do 00:36:45 but I also deal with real world code made 15 years ago by some maths programming guy 00:37:04 a mathematician programmer is going to make everything ugly. 00:37:10 in which case they already chose whether to cast or us bitshifts or whatever 00:37:15 and any argument for one or the other is irrelevant 00:37:28 they're going to go "gosh, haskell is cool, but i think it needs to look more like fortran" 00:37:31 honestly all of your arguments are bizarre non-sequitur topic-changes whenever you run out of defences 00:37:43 and the maths programming guy codes for win32, couldn't care less about POWER or MIPS (or sometimes even GCC!) and is going to use #pragma pack 00:37:55 If the programming language is QBASIC, then you can assume the PC or an emulator. If it is SQL, then it has a cross-platform format so that works; you can still define additional stuff in C, and call C from SQL and SQL from C, both ways. 00:37:59 okay, so are you this guy? if not, then it's irrelevant how he codes, because we were talking about how you code 00:38:10 since, if you remember, this was about the ifdef that you wrote 00:38:43 if it wasn't a maths programming guy then it would have read_int32() read_int16() read_int8() read_float() read_string() write_int32() etc... 00:39:55 but we're... talking... about... your... code... 00:39:55 <^v> who uses those anymore 00:40:05 but then it might be a maths heavy piece of code that does something interesting either 00:40:06 <^v> its all about dem * and & 00:40:11 01:25:58 I've written code with 00:40:11 01:26:30 #ifdef BIG_ENDIAN #error Fix this #endif 00:40:23 01:28:34 elliott : essentially it's a file load/store issue 00:40:23 01:29:05 once it's inside C++ values then of course it's in the architecture's natural byte order and everything is fine 00:40:43 -!- TodPunk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:40:57 <^v> but 00:41:01 <^v> big endian is best endian 00:41:17 dead endian 00:41:25 i continue to find the history of the names hilarious given: that 00:41:32 big endian is not IOS endian 00:41:41 So if you care about endianness and various other thing (screen I/O, etc) one thing you can do is to run the program in emulator; for example, writing computer game and distributing in iNES format, then it can run on a NES/Famicom emulator or on a real NES/Famicom hardware. 00:41:46 it's not even PC endian 00:41:51 zzo's got this shit down 00:42:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:42:26 it's "Oh god they're making us port to this retarded platform that is going to sell like 3 copies" endian 00:42:49 <^v> if you have a NES raise your hand 00:42:59 <^v> i count zero 00:43:01 there's an SNES at the local goodwill for like ten bucks 00:43:04 to young, my generation was SNES 00:43:04 maybe i should get it 00:43:06 Some people have actually made NES game and then released it on iPhone too, so you can still do that. 00:43:38 <^v> my generation was camecube 00:43:42 The program will be small-endian regardless of the endianness or word size of the computer you are running it on. 00:43:45 <^v> and win XP 00:44:22 the reason to do a NES game or something like that it that it forces some game design choices 00:44:28 <^v> zzo38, so the solution is to write an emulator for the architecture you coded it in 00:44:31 and shapes the game that comes out 00:44:33 ^v: Yes. 00:44:45 <^v> or just code it properly <_> 00:44:50 madbr: To me, that isn't necessarily the reason, although it can be one. 00:44:52 gotta take a game design decision -> the nes can only do X 00:44:56 -> then go for X 00:45:11 result: the game is all X and feels stylistically unified 00:45:30 If you need a keyboard you have the Famicom Keyboard too. The SNES mouse can also be used, if you need mouse input. 00:45:47 there's no other real reason to do a NES games these days 00:45:53 -!- sambora has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:46:09 because there are other platforms that do everything the NES did and take less time to develop for 00:46:10 No, I do it for many reason 00:46:34 the NES was a magical platform. 00:46:41 Doing it on other platform, then it won't run on a different platform that that one 00:46:55 (magical in that you had to do some heavy thaumaturgy just to get the damn cartridge to boot.) 00:47:04 My own programs "Famicom Hangman" and "Attribute Zone" do use the Family BASIC keyboard for input. 00:47:40 there are platforms that are fundamentally nice 00:47:43 I write computer games for DOS computers too 00:47:47 and platforms that are fundamentally hostile 00:48:24 Well, my opinion is that modern systems are relatively terrible. 00:48:27 for instance the snes is fundamentally hostile 00:48:59 modern systems are ok but they kinda guide you towards the wrong shape 00:49:16 they're kinda too powerful in the wrong way 00:49:51 They are too complicated 00:49:55 the ideal platform would let you only do a good, tight game 00:50:08 IOS is NOT an ideal platform by this measure 00:50:24 IOS is terrible, too. Famicom is OK. 00:51:41 if you look at game platforms, some platforms have only crap games 00:52:23 this is influenced by power level and economic rentability (ie the budget of the games on that platform) 00:53:05 but there's also a totally independent factor and some platforms have nice game libraries almost by voodoo magic 00:53:59 my example on this is going to be game soundtracks: 00:54:11 why do so few neogeo games have bad soundtracks? 00:54:32 Because the people who made neogeo are good composers. 00:58:03 I agree to write the emulator for architecture you coded it in. It is done today by people who made "Zooming Secretary" for NES and iPhone and so on, and Infocom did it with all of their games too, so yes this is the idea. 01:03:39 Do you think the music in my "Attribute Zone" game is good? My brother said is very good. 01:05:46 how would I know 01:06:34 By hearing it, I suppose? 01:07:54 Full source-codes for all software involved (including the music itself) are also available. 01:08:38 -!- TodPunk has joined. 01:13:22 It is mapper 11, so no expansion audio. There is also no percussion, just because I am not very good at percussion. 01:13:31 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 01:15:08 you should try to learn how to compose it then 01:16:57 usually it's just snares on 2 and 4 01:17:12 Yes perhaps I can try to learn percussion 01:17:21 and kicks nominally on 1 and 3 but often displaced before or after or shuffled around in various ways 01:17:58 But all the files are in: http://zzo38computer.org/nes_program/attrzone.zip and the .NSF is the only one you need to play the music, though. 01:18:04 hihats filling in not to loud on most eights in various rhythmic patterns with accented beats 01:18:20 potentially with open hihat hits 01:18:41 and then from time to time you have a fill and all of this stops and turns in whatever solo-y pattern fits best 01:18:48 Even if I do add percussion they would be using only the noise channel; I want to avoid use of DPCM 01:19:45 -!- CADD has joined. 01:21:23 then you can do megaman style drums 01:21:41 I don't really know much about megaman style 01:21:53 not as good as dpcm drums but better than nothing 01:22:20 Yes, probably that is true 01:23:06 I could use DPCM in the editor, but I want to avoid using up the ROM space for DPCM samples, too. 01:23:23 you don't have to use lots 01:23:33 just enough to get nice snares and kick 01:23:52 you can mix DPCM with noise for snares 01:24:26 I know you can mix DPCM with noise, too. 01:24:50 also a good trick for noise snares is that you have to give it a low frequency thwack 01:25:03 before the high frequency wall of noise 01:25:28 like, one or two frames of low frequency rumble then broadband shhhhhh 01:25:47 OK 01:26:15 it's easier to try this out by experimenting 01:26:19 But maybe these existing songs might sound best without percussion anyways; I am not so sure. 01:26:54 generally on nes you have so little going on that you need percussion to make the music go 01:27:12 Yes of course, I can understand that. 01:27:24 like, even when remixing classical music on the nes it generally benefits from added percussion 01:27:45 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CONCUSSIVE CHICKEN). 01:28:27 Although the other game I intend to make next would be "Tape Battle", and probably using VRC6 mapper. Therefore, I would have additional sound channels available, although percussion is still possible too. 01:28:45 dude 01:28:46 But for "Attribute Zone" game I don't intend to change the mapper to anything else from what it already is. 01:28:52 start with most important things first 01:28:59 percussion then maybe vrc6 01:29:45 I am much better at chord and multiple harmony than percussion. Although, music wasn't the only reason I intend to use VRC6, anyways; it is also due to the mapper's other features. 01:30:39 But of course, when writing music that is only meant for .NSF, I will often use more than one expansion audio (although sometimes only one or none at all). 01:30:41 then work on percussion since that's your weakpoint 01:31:29 Yes, I can work on percussion too, especially for Attribute Zone game since not all of the music is yet complete in that game, so even if I don't add percussion to the existing music, the rest of the music can have percussion included. 01:31:51 make people dance to the music 01:31:53 Currently the title screen music even uses only one channel, and I think it is good that way 01:32:18 The music isn't designed for dancing, although you can do that if you want. 01:33:19 isn't the title screen the best place for grandiose music? 01:33:27 with lots going on etc 01:33:50 I suppose so, but in this specific case, what it is now seems to be working OK. 01:35:07 Although the title screen itself doesn't contain much either, other than the title, a place to enter the level number (using either the D-pad or the numeric keys), and tell you what other functions are available. It contains no colors or animation or anything. 01:35:10 I think it would benifit from more harmony, fake echoes, crazy bassline, fake chorus/detune, etc 01:35:11 make it move 01:35:17 drums 01:35:33 spare 1k of data and get yourself a hard hitting snare 01:35:36 You may be correct. 01:35:56 get your players all pumped up about the game 01:35:58 And I probably do have 1K spare. 01:36:49 I have not added support for detune into the playback engine so far though. 01:36:56 title screen/intro/menus is the best place to put pics of your main character 01:36:59 But the game is not an action game at all; it is just a puzzle game. 01:37:08 make the player care about the dude he's about to play with 01:37:10 There is no story behind it nor is there meant to be. 01:37:42 once in game the character has to be small and has to deal with the game action and it's too late 01:38:29 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:39:08 example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtId7oQz8-s 01:39:31 You are correct about those things, but this is not a story game. 01:39:39 the title screen and menus and intros are plastered with that dude's face 01:39:47 it's not even about a story 01:40:03 it's about making the player identify to the main character 01:40:19 a lot of games that do this barely have any story at all 01:41:03 show him so that the players know who they're dealing with 01:42:55 you want players to care about the gameplay 01:42:57 This isn't that kind of game, though. There isn't really any "main character" either; just one piece of the puzzle is a piece you can move directly by pushing the buttons (although some buttons also do other things such as detonate all bombs on the screen). 01:43:09 ah yeah 01:43:18 then it's a different type of game I guess 01:43:38 Yes, it is what I said. 01:43:50 In a different game though, yes I can certainly take your advice. 01:45:20 well, it can also be applied to puzzle games (see: tetris attack) but it's defitively less important there 01:46:07 Yes I think is less important there, and for puzzle game I generally prefer without, anyways 01:48:07 And, you don't even have to put everything on the title screen (it may not fit); stuff can also put in label picture, box picture, and instruction book. (Label picture can be distributed as PNG, perhaps) 01:50:25 I consider the game play to be more important, though. 01:51:12 for your gameplay to work you have to make the player care about the game first 01:54:18 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:55:54 the player might not want to learn your game mechanics if he's not emotionally involved 01:58:11 some people like puzzles. 01:58:46 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep). 01:59:26 puzzles are great 01:59:38 and they are even better when you involve human interest 02:01:17 a lot of popular games are essentially puzzles but they are wrapped in all sorts of stuff that generate human interest (music, characters, settings, plot, etc) 02:04:11 I tend to prefer to think of them in abstract terms, but you can do what you like. All of these software are open-source, in fact!! 02:04:49 I may want a story for adventure game but for a puzzle game it is not necessary. 02:05:24 Chess puzzles don't generally have any music, characters, etc either. 02:05:39 (Although, one very old chess puzzle does have a story to go with it.) 02:06:10 chess still has a human interst element 02:06:17 first that you're playing against someone 02:06:28 but also you're playing with an army 02:06:34 that are fighting 02:06:37 Yes, although if it is a chess problem then there is no opponent 02:06:42 and you "eat" the other guy's pieces 02:06:58 The proper term is "capture", but "eat" is used too 02:08:18 and there's a reason you're playing with kings, queens and horses 02:08:29 Yes, that is historical reason 02:08:58 and Go? 02:09:02 Tetris? 02:09:06 But of course actual king, queen, horses, etc isn't working like that, so generally is just considered the name of the pieces these days. 02:09:13 go is more abstract 02:09:18 (and also less popular) 02:09:22 I am an abstract kind of gamer 02:09:34 and yet still vastly popular. 02:09:50 and I don't believe the main reason for chess's greater popularity is that the pieces have names. 02:10:21 elliott: They have names because there is more than one kind, for one thing; so that can help it. 02:10:24 there are many more reasons yes 02:11:45 but there's a good reason why so many games have a "narrative" 02:12:01 Yes, you can have a "narrative" if you want to 02:13:14 why do you think candy crush is (unfortunately) so popular 02:13:30 -!- kmc has left. 02:13:47 if you're telling people how to make their games more like candy crush, I hope they ignore you. 02:13:52 Magic: the Gathering puzzles generally do have a story associated with them, although I don't generally care much about the story of the puzzle or of the cards. I play Pokemon Card too, but just do it in abstract terms and my own Pokemon Card puzzles don't have any story associated with them. 02:14:24 madbr: The title? I don't like that title much but probably it seems a lot of people would like. 02:14:40 -!- vyv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:14:41 Mentioning that the puzzle game involves a peice that moves aroudn and detonates bombs remotely reminded me of some N64 game that I never actually played. 02:15:58 The piece doesn't detonate bombs remotely; that is a global effect you can use by pushing one button, simply. The piece you move doesn't detonate bombs at all but some pieces do as part of their effect when colliding with bombs. 02:16:35 In order that you can tell apart the pieces, they are given names and icons (a bit more sensible than chess, though). 02:16:37 -!- vyv has joined. 02:16:58 For example a key is used to get past a door of the same color. 02:18:16 Yeah, but I meant the game I'm talking about was similar. 02:19:17 Actually, I forget how it worked, but I meant if you made the moveable peice a character, it would make snese for bombs to blow up globally via a key if you said it was a remote detonator. 02:19:39 Though making it a character isn't needed. 02:21:39 If I want a game with a story, I can play text adventure game or Dungeons&Dragons game or whatever. I don't need graphics or music for those either. 02:22:08 tbh I prefer stuff like mario rpg 02:26:08 and for adventure games, the lucas arts stuff 02:26:31 That's fine, those game can be good too 02:27:18 they take a lot more effort to develop 02:27:23 but it's worth it 02:32:58 OK 02:33:18 Although, really it depend on preferences and on variety of things. 02:37:44 But I make many computer games in DOS that don't have graphics, although some do use graphics mode in order to draw overlapping icons or hex grid or other stuff that it can help with. 02:42:05 as far as dos games go, my childhood was MEGARACE 02:43:05 oh god that thing 02:43:06 Let's see what you've won, Enforcer! An invitation to spend an evening out with yourself, including restaurant and a romantic movie. All expenses paid by Y-O-U. Do I hear wedding bells? 02:43:20 it did have an intersting soundtrack 02:43:20 (i still remember it like yesterday) 02:43:54 i'm pretty sure it NEVER HAD SEQUELS. shhhhh 02:43:56 one of the few games that does anything interesting with the hardware aside from playing midi 02:44:51 all custom patches and all sorts of crazy detune effects and fake echoes etc 02:44:56 -!- not^v has joined. 02:45:56 instead of the usual "just play a midi (that was composed on some expensive roland module so it sounds totally stupid on the end user computer)" bullshit 02:46:41 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 02:46:58 any idea what sort of mad hoops i'd have to jump through to get it to run on a 64-bit win8 machine? 02:47:09 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1FVdUTSlF4&list=PL6F9446A70251AFD4&index=3 so raw and agressive 02:47:16 dosbox + prayer probably 02:48:00 ngloop was a great track 02:48:32 did he upload saturn or whatever 02:48:40 the one where you get paloma 02:48:44 why aren't there more games with music like this 02:51:07 Do you like to play Pokemon Card? 02:51:18 the industrial one is "new fac", but my fav is suburb 02:51:38 orbital junkyard 02:51:40 that's the one 02:51:56 sent me to tokyo every damn time 02:54:43 hmm, do you think i could rip the midis from the disc? 02:56:13 I don't think the game even uses midis 02:56:27 I think it's some sort of custom music system (same as in Dune) 02:56:42 Maybe you could log them to VGM? 02:57:44 -!- not^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:57:56 so i'd have to get the damn thing to run, or track them down on the web (the link to the tracks on wikipedia is busted) 03:01:17 "On April 15, 2014 it was announced conversions of the entire MegaRace Trilogy were being made for mobile and tablet devices along with a reboot of the franchise on PCs, game consoles, mobile, and tablet devices by ZOOM Platform and Jordan Freeman Group. Industry veteran, Bernie Stolar, is the Chairman of ZOOM and Jordan Freeman Group and was quoted in the press release" 03:01:58 dunno why they're bothering to convert 3 :/ 03:06:13 hmm i think suburb is the one that went with orbital junkyard for some reason 03:06:23 yeah 03:10:14 That is one small soundtrack 03:10:20 Not that it's bad 03:15:00 "I'm Lance Boyle and you'd be too if you were me." 03:17:22 https://twitter.com/torahhorse/status/475754225964572673 03:19:10 Do you have transpose/volume information for the Zeux series instruments that I can import into amigasam (a program I wrote for extracting instruments from .MOD music files)? 03:20:57 most samples should play C at 8363hz 03:21:06 but some are on different octaves 03:21:10 The format it uses is currently not compatible with any program other than AmigaMML (another program I wrote). 03:21:23 madbr: Yes, although some aren't tuned to C at 8363 03:21:46 then you have to do it by ear 03:21:57 figure out the transposition and reverse it 03:23:10 Yes I could try that 03:23:34 there is no other way 03:24:06 OK 03:34:28 If you want to you can also try to use this amigasam format in other software, although currently there isn't any as far as I know of. 03:35:43 I just rip samples straight out of amiga MODs in impulse tracker 03:36:18 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 03:36:31 That works, although MOD format stores no transpose information 03:36:53 -!- lollo64it has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:44:31 This export format contains not only transpose, but also loop and base volume (which is not the same thing as default volume, although it will use the same value as default volume by default). 03:44:52 And the finetune, which is part of .MOD format anyways. 03:45:20 Most tracker music software can probably import directly from other music files and export them to whatever format they need 03:47:01 I know .IT format has its own transpose features and so on. 03:53:10 OpenMPT has no "reload current file" function as far as I can see, although the ENSATA DS emulator does have such a thing. 03:53:53 reload current file? 03:54:59 I mean just a shortcut key to cause it to reload the current file which is open. Many emulators and music players have no such shortcut. 03:59:49 it's usual to do this on a module because normally when you have a song open in MPT you're editing it in MPT 03:59:57 and not with like 2 or 3 programs at the same time 04:00:40 MPT has no SQL editor or MML compiler integrated with it; if they did have both things then you probably wouldn't ever need to edit it with other programs at the same time. 04:01:48 (And if even those are insufficient, you could use SELECT LOAD_EXTENSION('more_stuff.dll'); or whatever) 04:02:10 the point to using mpt is to avoid having to deal with mml or similar stuff 04:02:28 it has a full featured pattern editor just for this 04:02:56 the pattern editor has like thousands of manhours of work in it to make it work well 04:03:21 OpenMPT does have a replace menu, which can do a few things, but not quite everything you might want; I think using SQL to do batch replacements of this kind would work better. 04:03:44 that's probably overdesign 04:04:06 Then don't need a replace menu and all of that stuff 04:04:10 most users don't know SQL 04:04:48 also the replace menu is specifically tailored to MPT's music data 04:04:55 But sure you could make one table to add things into the menu so that such thing can be added on 04:04:56 that's a significant advantage 04:05:22 also that would add dependency on some SQL library 04:05:36 which would increase loading time, size etc 04:05:39 Yes it would; I use SQLite myself 04:06:09 bloating software like that is not a good idea 04:06:47 I know, although mptrack.exe is already 2791 KB and has too many things compared to that really. 04:07:00 All the VST and stuff we don't need. 04:07:10 After all they aren't even portable! 04:07:29 VST is 1000000 times more useful than adding SQL support for editing note data 04:07:37 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:07:39 I don't really think so. 04:07:41 MPT was never portable 04:07:55 it uses like... MFC 04:07:57 Modern version are adding more compatible playback though 04:08:04 That's what I mean 04:08:13 the playback library is portable yes 04:08:28 but the program itself is 100% win32 only 04:08:39 Yes, but that isn't what I meant at all 04:09:06 And of course it doesn't even have to be MPT; it is possible to make/use other software too, with same playback 04:09:13 also doing replacements in pattern data can usually be faked with the existing block commands 04:09:27 or by manipulating instrument parameters 04:09:44 VST support is NOT fakable 04:10:25 no amount of pattern data editing will let you fake a reverb 04:10:45 I still don't like VST and use Csound instead; it is open-source and much easier to edit than VST in my opinion, and also doesn't require GUI like VST does. 04:11:19 And if you use VST then these .MOD/.IT/whatever aren't a portable files anymore anyways. 04:11:28 You should make it a different program! 04:12:12 GUIs are a feature 04:12:30 Yes, but it ought not to be a required feature. 04:12:46 tweaking a synthesizer patch by text file is bothersome and slow 04:13:12 the gui exists to make that process faster 04:13:22 I find it much easier and much more powerful though. Csound does support GUI too, though. 04:13:30 since your patch is easier to edit the result is normally going to be better 04:13:46 So you can use GUI in Csound if you want to, either using its own FLTK and stuff or using external programs such as Blue. 04:13:52 also GUIs are a significant time investment, you might as well use it 04:14:16 ok link to one good looking GUI made for csound 04:14:18 -!- Bike has joined. 04:15:01 But I find it more convenient to edit the text file directly. GUI may be helpful to try tweaking the stuff, but even if I do such thing, I want to export it into a text that can be included in another file, and then be able to put in varying parameters and all of that stuff too 04:15:26 I don't know what GUI are available for Csound much, but I believe Blue has a lot of features. 04:15:37 but does it look good 04:15:39 Csound can load VST as well, though, so you can still use all of the VST GUIs. 04:15:43 and is it practical to edit 04:15:52 Why do you care if it "look good"? 04:16:19 because I don't want to strain my eyes 04:16:21 To me it is not so practical to edit, but neither is any tracker music software. But many people who do use it, find it very practical and useul to use. 04:16:37 And I believe it does actually allow you to change the color if you don't like the blue colors. 04:17:35 Csound also has the capability to be used as a VST. 04:18:00 it's too open-ended 04:18:27 it's like max-msp 04:18:29 However, I don't really like VST; they cost too much and you have to get each one individually, and it is Windows-only and difficult to do the advanced stuff that Csound is capable to do. 04:18:40 you can in theory do everything in max-msp 04:19:34 in practice you can do everything but it's held by duck tape, it's never tight and it's not really conductive to actually composing music 04:20:01 there's a reason VSTs cost money 04:20:03 I find Csound works very well though, and so do many others. 04:20:13 high development time 04:20:36 -!- aloril has joined. 04:20:49 Even if they don't cost money, I still don't like VST, so I don't use it. 04:21:02 it's that high development time that makes it so that the synth isn't held together with duct tape and it doesn't break whenever you try to do anything 04:21:30 also one big feature is that they are made by people who know what they're doing so everything is implemented the right way around 04:21:49 for instance, and envelope (ADSR) can be implemented the right way or the wrong way 04:22:11 Csound doesn't "break whenever you try to do anything" either, and they are also made by people who know what they are doing, and are developed over a much longer period of time than VST, and is also open-source (GNU LGPL). 04:22:12 if you get a stupid synth like some thing a dude made in synthedit, then it's going to be implemented the wrong way 04:23:29 Csound has a lot of commands included so that you can just start working on it right away. 04:23:38 in text data 04:23:47 Yes 04:24:03 But I find it works best. 04:24:07 your feedback loop (change something - test - change something - test - change something - test...) is never going to be short 04:24:09 Some people don't, but they don't have to use it! 04:24:23 short feedback loop is super important 04:24:27 and csound doesn't have it 04:24:56 that's why I use impulse tracker 04:24:59 I find I can do it without taking too long. 04:25:01 it has a short feedback loop 04:25:08 zzo38 : that's NOT short 04:25:42 All that means is that you are good at Impulse Tracker and that you are not very good at Csound. 04:25:51 no 04:26:03 If you like Impulse Tracker, then use it, but I don't like it, and can work faster in other ways 04:26:03 there's a difference between hearing changes as you make them 04:26:21 and hearing them 10 seconds later after a text editor save 04:26:47 It is your assumption that you have to do it one at a time! Well, you don't! 04:27:21 no you have to work super fast 04:27:33 otherwise you forget your musical ideas before you can type them in 04:27:49 That is not how I think of music, though. 04:28:21 ultra tight musical data editors (piano rolls, trackers, etc) are not a luxury 04:28:24 they are a necessity 04:28:26 Do you ever work with writing down musical notations? 04:28:45 I've done it a couple of times 04:28:52 For school 04:29:17 It's a different ballgame... it's kindof like text editing, but with musical symbols 04:29:26 where the goal is to produce an easy to read part 04:29:31 Writing it by hand is going to be a bit slow, but I have done it nevertheless, even in the bus. 04:29:54 I find the text file almost as easy to read, but much faster to enter/edit. 04:29:55 Muisc notation: "Toot toot honk toot" 04:30:13 also I'm not too good at sight reading 04:30:17 which is very hard imho 04:30:52 "Where am I about to dissapear to?" 04:31:00 zzo38 : how do you know if the melody you've entered is strong or not so interesting? 04:31:13 Then why do you think you are a very good musician if you are such bad at sight reading? I find it important for writing music. 04:31:17 Also, where am I going to put the extra pumpkin point if there's no room on my board now?" 04:31:19 madbr: I can make good guesses by my mind. 04:31:35 Wait whty am I talkigna bout rthwe stream here. 04:31:36 zzo38 : I'm just comparatively better at other things 04:31:38 Sometimes it is wrong, but not so likely. 04:32:00 zzo38 : sure that's an ok first guess, but to really know you have to hear 04:32:04 madbr: O, that's fine 04:32:06 and THEN you know 04:32:13 which is why I use a tracker 04:32:32 then I can instantly play it back 04:32:43 and fix the mistakes, improve how it sounds etc 04:32:45 I find that it is also difficult to know even if it is only a few notes, even if you play them right away; I need to put all notes together to make the music to listen if it is wrong or not. 04:33:07 try out 3 or 4 ways of doing voice leading in a bunch of crazy jazz chords 04:33:10 But, really it depend what kind of way work best for you for writing a music. 04:33:32 I use classical rather than jazz chords, so perhaps that makes a difference, too. 04:33:38 I do both 04:34:20 I've kindof half forgot the counterpoint rules so I just wing it 04:34:51 and then I listen to know if it works 04:36:15 -!- lollo64it has joined. 04:37:08 Although some people don't use MML, tracker, piano roll, or anything like that and prefer just to play it on the piano and record the audio onto a tape or CD. I know someone who write music and prefers this method. 04:37:23 He plays guitar too, not only piano. 04:37:57 I use piano to try out new ideas, try to figure out new chords to add to my style etc 04:38:12 and just improvise around 04:38:13 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 04:39:32 I guess piano + pencil on music sheet works as a music composition technique 04:39:40 I do know how to play piano too, and do sometimes try stuff too, but usually I play a music that is already written down; either from a book or I write it down myself and then play it. I don't do it so often though because I usually work with computer instead; it is much faster. 04:41:16 At time of Bach and so on they would always only be writing it down and that kind of stuff. Some composers even were deaf and still could write music. 04:43:38 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:43:47 you should probably learn jazz chords btw 04:44:39 madbr: Maybe I will some day. I did read a few things about it from my sister's books actually, but don't know everything about it. They sometimes work, sometimes not so well, really. Some jazz music are good and some are worse, I find. 04:44:48 I find it too slow to type music into the tracker grid and to go back and edit it, so that is why I think that using a integrated tracker+SQL+MML would work best (it is one reason, anyways). 04:45:35 All extra menus and stuff and macro and so on can be defined externally rather than having to put all of that stuff into the program at once. 04:45:49 you should learn to use a DAW 04:45:53 that's where it's at 04:46:39 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 04:46:49 I have used DAW, but find it is difficult, and yet I would also need to buy a MIDI input device. 04:47:08 it is difficult 04:47:09 Actually the digital piano I do have supports MIDI, but it is in a different room from the computer. 04:47:22 but it's what has the highest payoff 04:47:54 I find Csound can do everything that DAW can do (even real-time, MIDI input, etc), and it is also free, too. 04:48:29 I also don't need DAW because I am not a professional music writer. 04:48:35 on paper csound does everything 04:48:50 in practice, it's just not a music composition tool 04:49:05 Well, to me it is, as well as several others. 04:49:29 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:52:42 [wiki] [[Pluso]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39820 * Icepy * (+1362) Created page with "Pluso is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Icepy|Icepy]] in 2014. This programming language is called pluso because it has to commands: plus and output. T..." 04:53:45 [wiki] [[Pluso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39821&oldid=39820 * Icepy * (-1) 04:56:45 [wiki] [[Pluso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39822&oldid=39821 * Icepy * (+28) /* Hello world */ 04:58:24 [wiki] [[Pluso]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39823&oldid=39822 * Icepy * (+27) 04:58:37 [S] Rex Duodecim Angelus released 04:58:47 Csound has been in development since 1985, and is still being updated today. Csound does support real-time and interactive if that helps you. There are many GUI and other stuff. Blue does have piano rolls, tracker style format, algorithmic generation, and more. 04:59:58 Things you say about Csound and MML and stuff being not useful is simply not true. The fact is, it depend your style of writing music what works best for you. If you don't find Csound and MML useful, then don't use them! 05:01:37 impulse tracker is embedded onto my muscle memory 05:01:37 -!- CADD has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:02:04 Yes, use it if that helps you. 05:02:18 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:06:25 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 05:10:57 But I wrote AmigaMML so that I can use that instead. 05:16:50 one of my current pet project is trying to come up with a language for a megazeux successor 05:17:03 I also find that Impulse Tracker format is too complicated, as well as being too limited in some ways too (you cannot have multiple effects per cell) 05:17:30 madbr: Interesting idea; I also have many idea relating to such thing! Mine is probably completely different. 05:17:42 yes 05:18:13 - multiple "threads" per object 05:20:28 - basic data types are floats, strings (std::string basically), vectors of floats (std::vector basically). variables are either local to objects, or global 05:21:14 - object-local variables can be "generic" (ie all objects have that variable and you can read/write it on other objects) 05:21:40 - thread supports basic megazeux-like flow control (wait 1, end, goto, send...) 05:22:40 I still love this art http://wow.zamimg.com/images/hearthstone/cards/enus/animated/GAME_005_premium.gif?4443 05:23:15 - objects have some forced built-in variables like x, y, vx, vy (velocity), ax, ay (acceleration), hflip, hp... 05:24:19 - you can send messages to a collide box 05:24:43 - objects clip against the background (and probably other "solid" objects) 05:25:23 - background is 2d tiled (designed for tiled 2d games like platformers, space shooters, zelda-likes and rpgs) 05:26:23 - each tile in the tileset can have various attributes such as "solid" 05:26:36 - slope tiles are also built-in 05:27:35 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 05:28:39 It doesn't have much to do with MegaZeux really, although may have some things inspired by MegaZeux; it is good though. Completely different from my own ideas, which is something closer to ZZT and MegaZeux. 05:28:46 -!- `^_^v has joined. 05:28:57 well 05:29:11 the concept is geared towards 2d tiled games 05:29:22 which means it needs a reasonable of 2d physics 05:29:44 also objects cannot be tiles anymore 05:30:11 Yes I can see, what you are writing is good and stuff, but different from my own ideas which aren't meant for the same kind of games really 05:31:55 what's your design? 05:34:07 It still has color/thing/param like MegaZeux, and the "thing" is either a primitive (which can be user-defined in the format file), or if it is too high, the thing/param together designate a robot ID. Therefore, the maximum number of robots depends on how many primitives are defined. 05:34:53 Font height is a global setting of the game, and there are four fonts: system, text, robot, and object. The "robot" set can be set per board; "text" and "object" per world; "system" is immutable. 05:35:25 mhm 05:35:49 Many things are now defined in the format file (a standard one is provided, which you edit for your game if necessary). 05:36:21 No more built-in ammo, health, lives, etc; you can define those yourself. 05:36:48 A few primitive objects and Robotic commands are built-in, while others are defined in the format file. 05:37:10 and how does the format file define new object types 05:37:23 In Forth. 05:37:37 Similar to what I have experimented modifying MegaZeux, but in a much better way than that. 05:37:53 Things like board properties are also defined in the format file. 05:38:18 That is, which board properties are available; the settings for each board are done in the editor like ZZT and MegaZeux do. 05:38:41 does it expand the graphics? 05:39:22 Graphics would be similar to MegaZeux, but with four banks of 256 characters and two bits per pixel, and a customizable (per-world) font height, but always 8 pixels wide. 05:39:45 why not 4 bits per pixel? 05:41:19 Due to the way colors will work, for simplicity, and to be closer to the MegaZeux. Each tile drawn on screen still has a background and foreground color, and one bit per pixel is used to select the alternate palette rather than the default one. 05:41:55 So, each tile still has colors same as in MegaZeux graphics mode 0, or PC text mode. 05:44:22 mhm 05:45:02 one of my issues with megazeux is that it's hard to make nice action games because the tile-by-tile motion always feels kinda clunky 05:45:21 especially when all your sprites are 1x1 05:45:45 Number of built-in primitive objects is probably small, perhaps only empty, custom wall, and player (for things like GO SEEK, but player is now optional). All others are defined in the format file. 05:46:48 I can understand you, although those are not the kind of action games I would be trying to design with MegaZeux anyways. 05:49:01 also 1x1 sprites are tiny 05:49:28 forces you to do all the character development/identification through text 05:49:45 I prefer doing character development/idenficiation through text anyways 05:50:02 I don't really like cutscenes 05:50:56 I think the way is large sprites 05:51:03 but this is hard to do in mzx 05:51:26 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:51:57 Yes it is hard to do in MZX, but to me that is not the point; they are not important for these kind of computer game. 05:54:15 for me they are important 05:54:36 madbr: Well, that is why you make up that new one difference instead; it is still good too. 05:55:11 But I just don't like cutscenes and prefer text window. 05:56:03 I'm not talking about cutscenes 05:56:14 they're a different thing 05:56:20 I'm talking about in game 05:56:40 It depend what type of game, really. 05:56:49 if you try to make a game with more than 1x1 characters in mzx 05:57:00 you either have to use sprites 05:57:07 which are imho not very well designed 05:57:16 MZX isn't really suitable for the kind of game with more than 1x1 characters 05:57:20 and also don't interact with anything else which sucks 05:57:31 But it is a different kind of games anyways 05:57:32 right 05:57:58 I want larger characters because that improves emotional impact 05:58:18 and helps make action games less clunky 05:58:29 To me, it makes less things fit on the screen. 05:59:08 Using MegaZeux like that seem to be, you should be using something else. And your ideas can be used to make up such a program for this kind of design, it can be good idea! 06:02:26 But the thing I am trying to make is an entirely different kind of thing than yours, and for different purposes. 06:12:51 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Rouringu de hajikunda!). 06:14:41 -!- fowl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:21:29 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:21:47 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:22:50 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:27:15 -!- fowl has joined. 06:28:20 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:39:55 http://www.clickhole.com/video/what-adorable-little-girl-says-will-melt-your-hear-286 06:40:01 I may end up addicted to ClickHole 06:54:43 Sgeo: are you playing the clicking game 06:54:47 unlocking those achievements 06:57:32 [wiki] [[User:Icepy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39824&oldid=39693 * Icepy * (+52) 06:59:04 [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39825&oldid=39791 * Icepy * (+12) /* P */ 07:07:19 -!- conehead has joined. 07:31:48 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 08:26:09 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:35:53 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 08:35:53 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 08:42:39 is anyone considering to create a BANCStar parody language yet? as in, an esolang where the source code tries to mimic BANCStar source code. 08:43:35 Probably not yet, as far as I know 08:44:22 I am. 08:44:34 great 08:47:51 It's based on lanterna 08:48:03 (http://code.google.com/p/lanterna/) 08:50:09 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:51:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:55:53 -!- Frooxius has joined. 08:58:48 b_jonas: If you have some specific ideas...? 08:59:35 I was thinking of roughly having a prompt file per application, 12 form files and 12 screen files 08:59:53 Form-Files describe the TextUI 09:00:02 and the screen file is the code behind each Form 09:00:36 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep). 09:01:21 mroman: I was actually thinking of something that doesn't behave like BANCStar, it's only the source code that looks like BANCStar 09:01:34 so source code must have lines with four optional numbers per line, 09:01:39 no comments allowed, 09:02:01 numbers are between -32768 and 32767, and 0 is sometimes omitted 09:02:31 and sometimes the last digit or the first digit is taken separately 09:02:53 so... no prompt file too? 09:03:17 if you just mean an array of 2000 variables, then sure, that could exist 09:06:55 I was thinking of encoding a scheme program (with some limitations) as numbers such that each positive number encodes a symbol in the first four digits and a parenthesis pattern in the last digit, 09:07:11 and negative numbers encode a literal (numeric or character), 09:07:16 but this isn't good enough, 09:07:45 because it wouldn't replicate the way how there are lots of zeros, often multiple zeros in a line, and how the first of the four numbers in a line has a different distribution. 09:09:13 well 09:09:22 If you have something that's good enough do it ;) 09:09:34 writing a bancstar-mimic is currently on my todo list not in the first place ;) 09:09:43 I've just made some sketches but nothing more 09:10:55 currently on top of my todo-list is my CoreWar-clone 09:14:50 I'll think more about this 09:16:54 must... break out... of logs' endianness discussion... 09:29:58 -!- nooodl has joined. 09:39:46 * oerjan succeeded, btw 09:47:03 [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39826&oldid=39801 * Zzo38 * (+440) 09:47:25 [wiki] [[Gentzen]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39827&oldid=39826 * Zzo38 * (-1) 09:54:32 fungot: so what do you think of this eugene goostman guy 09:54:41 oerjan: children's online privacy protection act please see their homepages and check out :) is it possible to run very often, but it's still better than nothing 09:54:59 fungot: it sounds like you've been taken in completely 09:55:01 oerjan: " this is a bad idea anyway to avoid that one! i was raised on thought balloons!! 09:58:01 ^style 09:58:01 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 10:05:24 please add the bibul style, based on http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/bibul which was downloaded from http://www.lolcatbible.com/ 10:10:03 -!- boily has joined. 10:43:02 fungot: You were not raised on thought balloons, stop cheating people. 10:43:02 fizzie: can you say java is the best language for fnord 10:43:24 fungot: I can say that but it doesn't make it true. 10:43:26 fizzie: first of all, it is not 10:43:57 Right, that's what I just said. 10:44:59 @tell boily I don't get it 10:45:00 Consider it noted. 10:45:53 @tell fizzie me neither. 10:45:55 Consider it noted. 10:47:08 (It means "one".) 10:47:18 fungot: what's the best language for fnord 10:47:19 shachaf: others wouldn't even think about that, since it ( a, b).... is that a group won't make substantial political progress without appealing to a majority. 10:48:52 -!- constant has quit (Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero). 10:49:07 fizzie: you didn't see the whole thing http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg 10:50:08 -!- mhi^ has joined. 10:50:15 also i already google translated it for boily but i'm not sure he realized 10:50:34 fungot: don't think, no majority... is it forth? 10:50:53 boily: it should look like before i saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness starving hysterical naked! 10:50:53 fungot: forth it is. 10:50:53 boily: nope, just something i couldn't get to sleep... will check in some other place in memory 10:50:55 fungot: okay then. I'll ask you later. 10:51:00 boily: gwydion if you generate an absolutely disgusting amount of getter/ setter methods and constructors are in that list too. ( let ( ( x 1) 10:51:16 oerjan: I think I remember realizing you translated it, but I'm not sure. 10:52:10 fungot: what's up got 10:52:10 shachaf: they use css to find the code, i'm more a pi guy than a fnord location whose contents is initialized to zero 10:53:06 fungot: we are all of us fnord locations whose contents is initialized to zero 10:53:06 shachaf: guile seems to be particularly welcome on irc. 10:53:19 fungot: more than you know hth 10:53:21 shachaf: ( lambda ( x y) x y)? what operation would that perform, if ( proc-a) is not 10:53:45 fungot: ID! 10:53:54 boily: they forced the addition of laml 10:53:55 -!- variable has joined. 10:55:22 -!- glogbackup has joined. 11:01:29 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PRISMATIC CHICKEN). 11:09:38 "One delicious super ice cream", then. 11:09:53 (It was loading p. slow on this thing.) 11:26:33 [wiki] [[Talk:Insomnia]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39828&oldid=13211 * 175.156.179.223 * (+125) /* About command 8 */ new section 11:35:52 -!- variable has quit (Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero). 11:50:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:59:28 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg). 12:02:56 -!- variable has joined. 12:05:44 -!- spike has joined. 12:11:47 -!- spike has left. 12:34:59 -!- password2 has joined. 12:51:13 -!- yorick has joined. 13:17:39 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 13:17:49 -!- Frooxius has joined. 13:23:51 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:32:14 -!- Bike has joined. 13:56:05 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:57:30 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:10:09 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 14:31:45 On what planet was this released? https://github.com/haskell-distributed/distributed-process/blob/eae0a41/ChangeLog#L1 14:39:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:48:14 -!- mihow has joined. 15:05:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:07:22 [wiki] [[Fishstacks]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39829&oldid=39214 * 75.102.84.17 * (+1) 15:10:27 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 15:25:06 I just misread "serialized" as "sterilized". Must be Friday. 15:34:16 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:41:37 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:46:21 -!- edwardk has joined. 15:55:25 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 16:05:03 -!- Zuu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:10:00 well 16:10:11 Some objects bette be sterilized! 16:10:22 Java-Beans and so on 16:24:45 Somehow I have gotten stuck permanently "Online" in Skype. 16:25:01 At least I'm reasonably sure I have no Skype clients running anywhere. 16:34:15 a google search suggests: "The solution is: Unlink your Skype account and your Microsoft account" 16:36:24 I don't have them linked, so I can't follow that. 16:36:25 (from this thread: http://community.skype.com/t5/Mac/Why-do-I-always-show-as-quot-online-quot/td-p/1038298 the first 4 posts are hilarious) 16:36:35 (I'm kind of proud that I thought of that without a Google search.) 16:37:25 send a cease and desist letter to the NSA demanding that they stop running Skype clients on your behalf. 16:38:24 The last page of the thread did let me know of /showplaces, which is a command I was sort of wondering whether it existed. 16:39:20 I only have one online endpoint, the one where I did /showplaces in. 16:39:38 And when I shut down that client, I'm apparently still listed as "Online". 16:39:44 It is a puzzling. 16:41:23 I also manually set my status to "Offline" and I still show up as "Online". 16:41:39 The NSA explanation sounds likely at this point. 16:53:06 -!- shikhin has joined. 16:58:19 -!- erdic has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:00:28 -!- erdic has joined. 17:13:24 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 17:14:38 -!- mihow has joined. 17:15:31 -!- drdanmaku has joined. 17:24:48 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 17:26:59 -!- edwardk has joined. 17:27:54 -!- edwardk_ has joined. 17:30:26 -!- lollo64it has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:31:34 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:47:35 -!- mihow has joined. 17:54:35 -!- Zuu has joined. 17:57:55 -!- Bike has joined. 18:09:22 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:16:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:22:18 -!- edwardk_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 18:51:00 -!- conehead has joined. 18:56:47 -!- MoALTz has joined. 19:37:24 -!- Patashu has joined. 19:48:58 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:50:50 -!- shachaf has joined. 19:58:38 -!- Bike has joined. 20:02:43 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:02:59 -!- Jafet has joined. 20:09:19 -!- lollo64it has joined. 20:13:27 -!- Jafet has left. 20:42:38 [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39830 * Sacchan * (+2266) Created page with "'''Smilefuck''' is an esoteric programming language similar to [[brainfuck]]. It was created on June 6th, 2014 by [[User:Sacchan]]. == Memory layout == The datastructure mani..." 20:43:09 [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39831&oldid=39830 * Sacchan * (-4) 20:43:43 [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39832&oldid=39831 * Sacchan * (+10) 20:45:30 [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39833&oldid=39832 * Sacchan * (-44) 20:45:47 [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39834&oldid=39833 * Sacchan * (+1) 21:15:31 -!- nooodl has joined. 21:15:51 wait , does the topic update on each wiki edit? 21:16:13 the topic? clearly not 21:16:16 that's just HackEgo talking 21:16:25 lol 21:16:40 You can filter out those messages if you don't like them, like I have done. 21:16:42 sorry i saw colored text and thought topic 21:16:54 its the first time i see them 21:17:32 >2011 >not being used to colored text 21:17:45 um it's 2014 21:17:55 prove it nerd 21:18:21 my grandpa actually thought it was 2015 a few days ago, that was odd 21:21:09 * Melvar checks that the way ST separates threads would work fine in idris. 21:21:40 Bike: what's with the whole "calling people nerds" thing 21:23:03 is the joke "i'm a nerd myself and therefore it's funny that i would call somebody else one. and in addition i don't actually think it's insulting i just use it as if it was an insult" 21:23:11 “let v = runST (\x => newVar True) in runST (\y => readVar v)” → “Can't unify ST s (MutVar s Bool) with ST x (MutVar y iType)” (x and y named for illustrative purposes) 21:23:15 i dunno, probably 21:29:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:43:12 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:45:43 -!- shikhout has joined. 21:49:02 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:49:52 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 21:52:52 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 21:55:13 The thing I want to know of someone else knows, is a way I can define the way to define a set of new symbols (which may be nullary, unary, binary, etc) for sequent calculus, and primitive rules to go with them, such that: * These rules only use the new symbols on the bottom and only outermost of a term. * It can be proven that there are no new theorems which do not involve these new symbols. * Such proof can be used for the computer to perform 21:57:39 zzo38: i think in type theory those are called soundness proofs, although i don't know much about the details. 21:58:14 or at least close to soundness proofs 21:58:51 girl genius still hasn't updated today :( 21:59:03 those things from wednesday still look pretty scary, though. 22:03:12 lel this channel has may-may arrows? >mfw 22:03:16 oh :/ 22:03:27 what's a may-may arrow 22:04:02 probably 4chan style quotes. >quoted text i only use them because ia m insufferable 22:04:22 it's just irc green, of course 22:04:44 diginet: i don't think i've seen them before today 22:05:16 bancstar in topic, did something happen to that? I remember we were trying to figure out how to figure out where it went 22:05:22 oerjan: Soundness proofs? I don't know much about that either. 22:06:26 olsner: mroman got in touch with a guy who has a github repository on it, and some additional info was dug out 22:06:43 and zzo38 has been reverse engineering 22:06:50 sweet! 22:07:05 and the wiki got a page on it. 22:08:04 (the eleven was my attempt at a subtle joke on some quote approximately like "the program only 10 people can read") 22:10:03 good joke. 22:15:11 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:16:20 olsner: the wiki has a decent article on it now 22:16:49 eh 22:17:02 it helps to not forget the lines I read a few minutes ago 22:19:43 has anyone here ever used META-II? 22:20:07 I've use Metapod. 22:25:12 I have not used META-II 22:27:59 -!- Sorella has joined. 22:28:36 -!- Sorella has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 22:29:59 -!- Sorella has joined. 22:31:10 hm news about an ad turning on people's xbox via the speech recognition 22:31:30 i smell the next annoying internet prank 22:32:04 Yes, it will be so nice when speech recognition is sued more widely. 22:32:12 -!- edwardk has joined. 22:32:44 With that and text to speech engines, I'll soon be able to have a group of electronic devices chattering with each other, all mistaking each other's commands for those of humans. 22:32:46 i find your use of "sued" intriguing, as i can just about imagine you _didn't_ misspell it. 22:32:51 *used 22:33:11 That could be interesting as well. 22:34:13 a virus spreading through speech recognition... 22:34:20 or at least a bot loop. 22:35:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:37:08 I don't like speech command anyways and consider it is a bad idea. When dialing a telephone number that includes such a thing, I normally just push zero right away and hope it works. In the case of directory assistance, it does work. But in one case, someone told me, they had to tell them that they are an idiot before the computer tried to connect them to an operator. 22:37:23 The numbered menus I am OK with though 22:40:05 -!- password2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:41:00 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 22:42:30 -!- mihow has joined. 22:43:19 What is the deal with today's Dilbert? 22:45:35 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:48:00 I guess it wants us to eat dark chocolate? 22:48:08 I'm not going to argue with that. 22:49:07 Also, the conclusion at the end is itself at least somewhat magical thinking. 22:55:05 The reason I wanted to know about those things with proofs about new symbol in sequent calculus is presumable to make something like that in the type/class definitions for Gentzen esolang 22:58:25 MDude: the worship of rationality does not necessarily come with the ability to distinguish it. 22:59:18 -!- mhi^ has joined. 22:59:28 (above statement probably also magical thinking.) 23:03:32 How to tell Mozilla the maximum amount of time and memory to take while parsing CSS? 23:03:59 Or, really perhaps, rendering CSS 23:08:15 Well, you can tell it zero by disabling stylesheets. 23:08:18 -!- monotone_ has changed nick to polytone. 23:08:43 I don't think there are many other choices. 23:23:27 Maybe UniMod format is better than Impulse Tracker? 23:24:43 oerjan: Yeah, I meant that was what was up with the comic. 23:25:56 Then you don't need only one effect per note, I think. 23:27:13 Or a simplified version of such could help, possibly, by removing some redundant stuff 23:46:21 -!- Bike has joined.