00:07:44 <elliott> well, depends on how you define alive, there :P
00:09:33 <madbr> but in 5 years when someone comes up with a new architecture, is it going to be little or big endian? :D
00:10:01 <madbr> back then there were many more influential big endian architectures (68k, mips)
00:10:08 <madbr> now it's down to power
00:11:39 <elliott> what endianness is the Mill?
00:12:16 <elliott> I wonder if there is any technical advantage to big endian on the architectural level
00:12:30 <elliott> it's pretty clearly worse for assembly up
00:12:45 <elliott> madbr: oh and network order is big-endian
00:12:48 <elliott> so it's always going to be relevant
00:13:53 <zzo38> I just always use ASCII filename anyways and require program I write to always require input to be ASCII filenames too, therefore avoiding any such problem.
00:14:06 <elliott> I, too, solve problems by ignoring them
00:14:21 <madbr> elliott : but then that's probably never going to be in code that has to be fast
00:14:46 <zzo38> Non-ASCII filenames are a bad idea anyways.
00:14:48 <madbr> by now most performance sensitive code is floating point anyways
00:14:54 <elliott> madbr: you don't think high performance matters for network code? sure it's going to be IO-bound, but ignoring CPU cost hurts scalability
00:15:17 <elliott> yes, that sentence has two parts though.
00:15:19 <madbr> also it's full of loads, stores and jumps
00:15:27 <elliott> you should see the amount of work people put into optimising HTTP parsing
00:15:29 <madbr> it's never going to be performance relevant
00:15:48 <Bike> that one article about O times being obsolete is all about caching versus network code...
00:16:06 <madbr> any code that deals with this is going to be limited by memory loads or branch mispredictions
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00:16:50 <madbr> so it doesn't matter if you lose 5 cycles shifting data around because that's 5 cycles where the cpu is waiting on the cache/ram
00:16:50 <zzo38> Filenames with spaces are also a bit bad idea, and with control characters.
00:17:01 <elliott> madbr: anyway, I have no idea what at all the relevance of performance-sensitivity is
00:17:08 <elliott> given that the original topic was endianness of UTF-16 filenames
00:17:19 <elliott> performance wasn't even mentioned
00:17:33 <madbr> if you're not in performance oriented code endianness doesn't even matter
00:17:43 <madbr> you just shift around the bytes if you're in the wrong endian
00:18:01 <elliott> 00:28:49 <boily> don't worry. some utf16 is garanteed to creep in. good lock with endianness!
00:18:04 <elliott> 00:29:12 <madbr> doesn't matter, almost all big endian platforms are dead
00:18:16 <elliott> my point is it does matter because big endian is here to stay (e.g. because network order)
00:18:21 <elliott> you can't just dismiss endianness concerns
00:18:24 <elliott> this has nothing to do with performance
00:18:26 <zzo38> Many libraries insist on UTF-8 filenames, some programs use other codepages, but generally in all cases ASCII is a subset of such thing, therefore it work better.
00:18:50 <madbr> elliott: if power falls out of relevance, all new architectures will be little endian
00:19:16 <elliott> but architectures are not the only things that can make endianness relevant...
00:19:31 <zzo38> madbr: I am not so sure. MMIX is big-endian.
00:19:48 <madbr> if all architectures are little endian then there's no point to big endian utf-16
00:20:04 <madbr> though tbh there's barely any point to utf-16 at all anyways
00:20:19 <zzo38> Although I do think small-endian is better.
00:20:41 <zzo38> I don't care about requiring the endianness for the purpose of parsing UTF-16.
00:21:39 <madbr> unicode byte order marks are stupid and whoever came up with that idea should be hit
00:21:51 <zzo38> s/byte order marks //
00:22:02 <elliott> madbr: but there are reasons things would be big endian even if all architectures are little endian
00:22:23 <madbr> legacy format here and there yes
00:22:30 <elliott> again, the network byte order is big endian, so it is ubiquitous. (though I guess in e.g. HTTP or whatever, use of UTF-16 specifies endianness explicitly)
00:22:43 <elliott> you think the standard network byte order qualifies as legacy...?
00:23:03 <madbr> legacy doesn't mean it's out of use
00:23:13 <elliott> okay. then I define everything on your computer as legacy and therefore completely irrelevant
00:23:51 <madbr> in this case I mean as in "If it was defined yesterday morning it would've been little endian. but it wasn't"
00:24:08 <madbr> so not legacy as more like a legacy decision
00:24:13 <elliott> well, we are always shackled by the past.
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00:25:58 <madbr> I've written code with
00:26:30 <madbr> #ifdef BIG_ENDIAN #error Fix this #endif
00:26:50 <madbr> I don't expect to be going through that code any time soon
00:26:56 <elliott> C code should never depend on endianness anyways.
00:27:33 <elliott> stuff like explicit casting to bytes is dumb when bitwise ops say what you actually mean, compile identically, and are inherently portable (the operations you are doing on the values has nothing to do with your computer's internal representation of data)
00:27:43 <madbr> would happen less often if there was a sensible way of reading shorts/ints from a raw byte stream
00:28:18 <zzo38> If you have the correct preprocessor symbols you can use them to compile a shorter kind of code in one case than the other
00:28:34 <madbr> elliott : essentially it's a file load/store issue
00:29:06 <madbr> once it's inside C++ values then of course it's in the architecture's natural byte order and everything is fine
00:29:34 <elliott> madbr: http://commandcenter.blogspot.be/2012/04/byte-order-fallacy.html
00:29:45 <elliott> there is no reason to depend on architecture endianness for load/store operations, ever
00:29:54 <elliott> it is more complicated, less clear, less portable, and no faster
00:30:21 <elliott> and the code that depends on endianness can fail to work for reasons unrelated to endianness
00:30:24 <madbr> i = (data[0]<<0) | (data[1]<<8) | (data[2]<<16) | (data[3]<<24);
00:30:30 <madbr> and also hard to read
00:30:53 <elliott> if that's hard to read, you have no business processing files with bits in them.
00:31:07 <elliott> especially because that can become a single read_uint16 function or whatever.
00:31:18 <madbr> that's what happens usually
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00:31:29 <madbr> except every program has its own definition of those
00:31:38 <madbr> because they never made it to the standard library
00:32:06 <madbr> also there's the people that use #pragma pack
00:32:29 <madbr> and essentially use a structure definition to essentially define a data loading format
00:33:29 <madbr> but because the gcc guys and msvc are too stupid to agree on anything this involves multiple macros (one for gcc one of msvc)
00:34:02 <madbr> plus of course an extra "bit reverse everything" function for when you end up having to do a big endian port
00:34:15 <zzo38> And the data can contain not only endianness and number of different sizes, also pointers, and variable lists, etc.
00:34:32 <madbr> it can't have pointers
00:34:36 <Bike> what the heck, that ain't hard to read
00:34:36 <madbr> it's data from a file
00:34:49 <madbr> bike: for one value it's not
00:34:50 <zzo38> Of course C makes such serialization difficult, but some programming language (such as SQL) don't have this problem.
00:35:08 <zzo38> madbr: I know it doesn't, but due to the file format it might be variable and so on
00:35:11 <Bike> sql, savior of us all
00:35:14 <madbr> bike: once it turns into loading complex data files with dozens of values it turns into a mess
00:35:26 <elliott> sure if you've never heard of functions or macros or anything
00:35:31 <Bike> yeah iwas gonna say
00:35:34 <Bike> abstract that shit bro
00:35:34 <elliott> in which case, god help you and your format parser anyway, it's going to be hideous
00:35:51 <zzo38> Yes it is going to be a mess, when you have to change things too
00:36:24 <madbr> I know that's the thing to do
00:36:45 <madbr> but I also deal with real world code made 15 years ago by some maths programming guy
00:37:04 <Bike> a mathematician programmer is going to make everything ugly.
00:37:10 <elliott> in which case they already chose whether to cast or us bitshifts or whatever
00:37:15 <elliott> and any argument for one or the other is irrelevant
00:37:28 <Bike> they're going to go "gosh, haskell is cool, but i think it needs to look more like fortran"
00:37:31 <elliott> honestly all of your arguments are bizarre non-sequitur topic-changes whenever you run out of defences
00:37:43 <madbr> and the maths programming guy codes for win32, couldn't care less about POWER or MIPS (or sometimes even GCC!) and is going to use #pragma pack
00:37:55 <zzo38> If the programming language is QBASIC, then you can assume the PC or an emulator. If it is SQL, then it has a cross-platform format so that works; you can still define additional stuff in C, and call C from SQL and SQL from C, both ways.
00:37:59 <elliott> okay, so are you this guy? if not, then it's irrelevant how he codes, because we were talking about how you code
00:38:10 <elliott> since, if you remember, this was about the ifdef that you wrote
00:38:43 <madbr> if it wasn't a maths programming guy then it would have read_int32() read_int16() read_int8() read_float() read_string() write_int32() etc...
00:39:55 <elliott> but we're... talking... about... your... code...
00:39:55 <^v> who uses those anymore
00:40:05 <madbr> but then it might be a maths heavy piece of code that does something interesting either
00:40:06 <^v> its all about dem * and &
00:40:11 <elliott> 01:25:58 <madbr> I've written code with
00:40:11 <elliott> 01:26:30 <madbr> #ifdef BIG_ENDIAN #error Fix this #endif
00:40:23 <elliott> 01:28:34 <madbr> elliott : essentially it's a file load/store issue
00:40:23 <elliott> 01:29:05 <madbr> once it's inside C++ values then of course it's in the architecture's natural byte order and everything is fine
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00:41:01 <^v> big endian is best endian
00:41:25 <Bike> i continue to find the history of the names hilarious given: that
00:41:32 <madbr> big endian is not IOS endian
00:41:41 <zzo38> So if you care about endianness and various other thing (screen I/O, etc) one thing you can do is to run the program in emulator; for example, writing computer game and distributing in iNES format, then it can run on a NES/Famicom emulator or on a real NES/Famicom hardware.
00:41:46 <madbr> it's not even PC endian
00:41:51 <Bike> zzo's got this shit down
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00:42:26 <madbr> it's "Oh god they're making us port to this retarded platform that is going to sell like 3 copies" endian
00:42:49 <^v> if you have a NES raise your hand
00:42:59 <^v> i count zero
00:43:01 <Bike> there's an SNES at the local goodwill for like ten bucks
00:43:04 <madbr> to young, my generation was SNES
00:43:04 <Bike> maybe i should get it
00:43:06 <zzo38> Some people have actually made NES game and then released it on iPhone too, so you can still do that.
00:43:38 <^v> my generation was camecube
00:43:42 <zzo38> The program will be small-endian regardless of the endianness or word size of the computer you are running it on.
00:44:22 <madbr> the reason to do a NES game or something like that it that it forces some game design choices
00:44:28 <^v> zzo38, so the solution is to write an emulator for the architecture you coded it in
00:44:31 <madbr> and shapes the game that comes out
00:44:45 <^v> or just code it properly <_>
00:44:50 <zzo38> madbr: To me, that isn't necessarily the reason, although it can be one.
00:44:52 <madbr> gotta take a game design decision -> the nes can only do X
00:45:11 <madbr> result: the game is all X and feels stylistically unified
00:45:30 <zzo38> If you need a keyboard you have the Famicom Keyboard too. The SNES mouse can also be used, if you need mouse input.
00:45:47 <madbr> there's no other real reason to do a NES games these days
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00:46:09 <madbr> because there are other platforms that do everything the NES did and take less time to develop for
00:46:10 <zzo38> No, I do it for many reason
00:46:34 <boily> the NES was a magical platform.
00:46:41 <zzo38> Doing it on other platform, then it won't run on a different platform that that one
00:46:55 <boily> (magical in that you had to do some heavy thaumaturgy just to get the damn cartridge to boot.)
00:47:04 <zzo38> My own programs "Famicom Hangman" and "Attribute Zone" do use the Family BASIC keyboard for input.
00:47:40 <madbr> there are platforms that are fundamentally nice
00:47:43 <zzo38> I write computer games for DOS computers too
00:47:47 <madbr> and platforms that are fundamentally hostile
00:48:24 <zzo38> Well, my opinion is that modern systems are relatively terrible.
00:48:27 <madbr> for instance the snes is fundamentally hostile
00:48:59 <madbr> modern systems are ok but they kinda guide you towards the wrong shape
00:49:16 <madbr> they're kinda too powerful in the wrong way
00:49:51 <zzo38> They are too complicated
00:49:55 <madbr> the ideal platform would let you only do a good, tight game
00:50:08 <madbr> IOS is NOT an ideal platform by this measure
00:50:24 <zzo38> IOS is terrible, too. Famicom is OK.
00:51:41 <madbr> if you look at game platforms, some platforms have only crap games
00:52:23 <madbr> this is influenced by power level and economic rentability (ie the budget of the games on that platform)
00:53:05 <madbr> but there's also a totally independent factor and some platforms have nice game libraries almost by voodoo magic
00:53:59 <madbr> my example on this is going to be game soundtracks:
00:54:11 <madbr> why do so few neogeo games have bad soundtracks?
00:54:32 <zzo38> Because the people who made neogeo are good composers.
00:58:03 <zzo38> I agree to write the emulator for architecture you coded it in. It is done today by people who made "Zooming Secretary" for NES and iPhone and so on, and Infocom did it with all of their games too, so yes this is the idea.
01:03:39 <zzo38> Do you think the music in my "Attribute Zone" game is good? My brother said is very good.
01:06:34 <zzo38> By hearing it, I suppose?
01:07:54 <zzo38> Full source-codes for all software involved (including the music itself) are also available.
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01:13:22 <zzo38> It is mapper 11, so no expansion audio. There is also no percussion, just because I am not very good at percussion.
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01:15:08 <madbr> you should try to learn how to compose it then
01:16:57 <madbr> usually it's just snares on 2 and 4
01:17:12 <zzo38> Yes perhaps I can try to learn percussion
01:17:21 <madbr> and kicks nominally on 1 and 3 but often displaced before or after or shuffled around in various ways
01:17:58 <zzo38> But all the files are in: http://zzo38computer.org/nes_program/attrzone.zip and the .NSF is the only one you need to play the music, though.
01:18:04 <madbr> hihats filling in not to loud on most eights in various rhythmic patterns with accented beats
01:18:20 <madbr> potentially with open hihat hits
01:18:41 <madbr> and then from time to time you have a fill and all of this stops and turns in whatever solo-y pattern fits best
01:18:48 <zzo38> Even if I do add percussion they would be using only the noise channel; I want to avoid use of DPCM
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01:21:23 <madbr> then you can do megaman style drums
01:21:41 <zzo38> I don't really know much about megaman style
01:21:53 <madbr> not as good as dpcm drums but better than nothing
01:22:20 <zzo38> Yes, probably that is true
01:23:06 <zzo38> I could use DPCM in the editor, but I want to avoid using up the ROM space for DPCM samples, too.
01:23:23 <madbr> you don't have to use lots
01:23:33 <madbr> just enough to get nice snares and kick
01:23:52 <madbr> you can mix DPCM with noise for snares
01:24:26 <zzo38> I know you can mix DPCM with noise, too.
01:24:50 <madbr> also a good trick for noise snares is that you have to give it a low frequency thwack
01:25:03 <madbr> before the high frequency wall of noise
01:25:28 <madbr> like, one or two frames of low frequency rumble then broadband shhhhhh
01:26:15 <madbr> it's easier to try this out by experimenting
01:26:19 <zzo38> But maybe these existing songs might sound best without percussion anyways; I am not so sure.
01:26:54 <madbr> generally on nes you have so little going on that you need percussion to make the music go
01:27:12 <zzo38> Yes of course, I can understand that.
01:27:24 <madbr> like, even when remixing classical music on the nes it generally benefits from added percussion
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01:28:27 <zzo38> Although the other game I intend to make next would be "Tape Battle", and probably using VRC6 mapper. Therefore, I would have additional sound channels available, although percussion is still possible too.
01:28:46 <zzo38> But for "Attribute Zone" game I don't intend to change the mapper to anything else from what it already is.
01:28:52 <madbr> start with most important things first
01:28:59 <madbr> percussion then maybe vrc6
01:29:45 <zzo38> I am much better at chord and multiple harmony than percussion. Although, music wasn't the only reason I intend to use VRC6, anyways; it is also due to the mapper's other features.
01:30:39 <zzo38> But of course, when writing music that is only meant for .NSF, I will often use more than one expansion audio (although sometimes only one or none at all).
01:30:41 <madbr> then work on percussion since that's your weakpoint
01:31:29 <zzo38> Yes, I can work on percussion too, especially for Attribute Zone game since not all of the music is yet complete in that game, so even if I don't add percussion to the existing music, the rest of the music can have percussion included.
01:31:51 <madbr> make people dance to the music
01:31:53 <zzo38> Currently the title screen music even uses only one channel, and I think it is good that way
01:32:18 <zzo38> The music isn't designed for dancing, although you can do that if you want.
01:33:19 <madbr> isn't the title screen the best place for grandiose music?
01:33:27 <madbr> with lots going on etc
01:33:50 <zzo38> I suppose so, but in this specific case, what it is now seems to be working OK.
01:35:07 <zzo38> Although the title screen itself doesn't contain much either, other than the title, a place to enter the level number (using either the D-pad or the numeric keys), and tell you what other functions are available. It contains no colors or animation or anything.
01:35:10 <madbr> I think it would benifit from more harmony, fake echoes, crazy bassline, fake chorus/detune, etc
01:35:33 <madbr> spare 1k of data and get yourself a hard hitting snare
01:35:36 <zzo38> You may be correct.
01:35:56 <madbr> get your players all pumped up about the game
01:35:58 <zzo38> And I probably do have 1K spare.
01:36:49 <zzo38> I have not added support for detune into the playback engine so far though.
01:36:56 <madbr> title screen/intro/menus is the best place to put pics of your main character
01:36:59 <zzo38> But the game is not an action game at all; it is just a puzzle game.
01:37:08 <madbr> make the player care about the dude he's about to play with
01:37:10 <zzo38> There is no story behind it nor is there meant to be.
01:37:42 <madbr> once in game the character has to be small and has to deal with the game action and it's too late
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01:39:08 <madbr> example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtId7oQz8-s
01:39:31 <zzo38> You are correct about those things, but this is not a story game.
01:39:39 <madbr> the title screen and menus and intros are plastered with that dude's face
01:39:47 <madbr> it's not even about a story
01:40:03 <madbr> it's about making the player identify to the main character
01:40:19 <madbr> a lot of games that do this barely have any story at all
01:41:03 <madbr> show him so that the players know who they're dealing with
01:42:55 <madbr> you want players to care about the gameplay
01:42:57 <zzo38> This isn't that kind of game, though. There isn't really any "main character" either; just one piece of the puzzle is a piece you can move directly by pushing the buttons (although some buttons also do other things such as detonate all bombs on the screen).
01:43:18 <madbr> then it's a different type of game I guess
01:43:38 <zzo38> Yes, it is what I said.
01:43:50 <zzo38> In a different game though, yes I can certainly take your advice.
01:45:20 <madbr> well, it can also be applied to puzzle games (see: tetris attack) but it's defitively less important there
01:46:07 <zzo38> Yes I think is less important there, and for puzzle game I generally prefer without, anyways
01:48:07 <zzo38> And, you don't even have to put everything on the title screen (it may not fit); stuff can also put in label picture, box picture, and instruction book. (Label picture can be distributed as PNG, perhaps)
01:50:25 <zzo38> I consider the game play to be more important, though.
01:51:12 <madbr> for your gameplay to work you have to make the player care about the game first
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01:55:54 <madbr> the player might not want to learn your game mechanics if he's not emotionally involved
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01:59:38 <madbr> and they are even better when you involve human interest
02:01:17 <madbr> a lot of popular games are essentially puzzles but they are wrapped in all sorts of stuff that generate human interest (music, characters, settings, plot, etc)
02:04:11 <zzo38> I tend to prefer to think of them in abstract terms, but you can do what you like. All of these software are open-source, in fact!!
02:04:49 <zzo38> I may want a story for adventure game but for a puzzle game it is not necessary.
02:05:24 <zzo38> Chess puzzles don't generally have any music, characters, etc either.
02:05:39 <zzo38> (Although, one very old chess puzzle does have a story to go with it.)
02:06:10 <madbr> chess still has a human interst element
02:06:17 <madbr> first that you're playing against someone
02:06:28 <madbr> but also you're playing with an army
02:06:37 <zzo38> Yes, although if it is a chess problem then there is no opponent
02:06:42 <madbr> and you "eat" the other guy's pieces
02:06:58 <zzo38> The proper term is "capture", but "eat" is used too
02:08:18 <madbr> and there's a reason you're playing with kings, queens and horses
02:08:29 <zzo38> Yes, that is historical reason
02:09:06 <zzo38> But of course actual king, queen, horses, etc isn't working like that, so generally is just considered the name of the pieces these days.
02:09:13 <madbr> go is more abstract
02:09:18 <madbr> (and also less popular)
02:09:22 <zzo38> I am an abstract kind of gamer
02:09:34 <elliott> and yet still vastly popular.
02:09:50 <elliott> and I don't believe the main reason for chess's greater popularity is that the pieces have names.
02:10:21 <zzo38> elliott: They have names because there is more than one kind, for one thing; so that can help it.
02:10:24 <madbr> there are many more reasons yes
02:11:45 <madbr> but there's a good reason why so many games have a "narrative"
02:12:01 <zzo38> Yes, you can have a "narrative" if you want to
02:13:14 <madbr> why do you think candy crush is (unfortunately) so popular
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02:13:47 <elliott> if you're telling people how to make their games more like candy crush, I hope they ignore you.
02:13:52 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering puzzles generally do have a story associated with them, although I don't generally care much about the story of the puzzle or of the cards. I play Pokemon Card too, but just do it in abstract terms and my own Pokemon Card puzzles don't have any story associated with them.
02:14:24 <zzo38> madbr: The title? I don't like that title much but probably it seems a lot of people would like.
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02:14:41 <MDude> Mentioning that the puzzle game involves a peice that moves aroudn and detonates bombs remotely reminded me of some N64 game that I never actually played.
02:15:58 <zzo38> The piece doesn't detonate bombs remotely; that is a global effect you can use by pushing one button, simply. The piece you move doesn't detonate bombs at all but some pieces do as part of their effect when colliding with bombs.
02:16:35 <zzo38> In order that you can tell apart the pieces, they are given names and icons (a bit more sensible than chess, though).
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02:16:58 <zzo38> For example a key is used to get past a door of the same color.
02:18:16 <MDude> Yeah, but I meant the game I'm talking about was similar.
02:19:17 <MDude> Actually, I forget how it worked, but I meant if you made the moveable peice a character, it would make snese for bombs to blow up globally via a key if you said it was a remote detonator.
02:19:39 <MDude> Though making it a character isn't needed.
02:21:39 <zzo38> If I want a game with a story, I can play text adventure game or Dungeons&Dragons game or whatever. I don't need graphics or music for those either.
02:22:08 <madbr> tbh I prefer stuff like mario rpg
02:26:08 <madbr> and for adventure games, the lucas arts stuff
02:26:31 <zzo38> That's fine, those game can be good too
02:27:18 <madbr> they take a lot more effort to develop
02:33:18 <zzo38> Although, really it depend on preferences and on variety of things.
02:37:44 <zzo38> But I make many computer games in DOS that don't have graphics, although some do use graphics mode in order to draw overlapping icons or hex grid or other stuff that it can help with.
02:42:05 <Quintopia> as far as dos games go, my childhood was MEGARACE
02:43:06 <Quintopia> Let's see what you've won, Enforcer! An invitation to spend an evening out with yourself, including restaurant and a romantic movie. All expenses paid by Y-O-U. Do I hear wedding bells?
02:43:20 <madbr> it did have an intersting soundtrack
02:43:20 <Quintopia> (i still remember it like yesterday)
02:43:54 <Quintopia> i'm pretty sure it NEVER HAD SEQUELS. shhhhh
02:43:56 <madbr> one of the few games that does anything interesting with the hardware aside from playing midi
02:44:51 <madbr> all custom patches and all sorts of crazy detune effects and fake echoes etc
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02:45:56 <madbr> instead of the usual "just play a midi (that was composed on some expensive roland module so it sounds totally stupid on the end user computer)" bullshit
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02:46:58 <Quintopia> any idea what sort of mad hoops i'd have to jump through to get it to run on a 64-bit win8 machine?
02:47:09 <madbr> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1FVdUTSlF4&list=PL6F9446A70251AFD4&index=3 so raw and agressive
02:47:16 <madbr> dosbox + prayer probably
02:48:44 <madbr> why aren't there more games with music like this
02:51:07 <zzo38> Do you like to play Pokemon Card?
02:51:18 <madbr> the industrial one is "new fac", but my fav is suburb
02:54:43 <Quintopia> hmm, do you think i could rip the midis from the disc?
02:56:13 <madbr> I don't think the game even uses midis
02:56:27 <madbr> I think it's some sort of custom music system (same as in Dune)
02:56:42 <zzo38> Maybe you could log them to VGM?
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02:57:56 <Quintopia> so i'd have to get the damn thing to run, or track them down on the web (the link to the tracks on wikipedia is busted)
03:01:17 <Quintopia> "On April 15, 2014 it was announced conversions of the entire MegaRace Trilogy were being made for mobile and tablet devices along with a reboot of the franchise on PCs, game consoles, mobile, and tablet devices by ZOOM Platform and Jordan Freeman Group. Industry veteran, Bernie Stolar, is the Chairman of ZOOM and Jordan Freeman Group and was quoted in the press release"
03:01:58 <Quintopia> dunno why they're bothering to convert 3 :/
03:06:13 <Quintopia> hmm i think suburb is the one that went with orbital junkyard for some reason
03:10:14 <Sgeo> That is one small soundtrack
03:10:20 <Sgeo> Not that it's bad
03:15:00 <madbr> "I'm Lance Boyle and you'd be too if you were me."
03:17:22 <ion> https://twitter.com/torahhorse/status/475754225964572673
03:19:10 <zzo38> Do you have transpose/volume information for the Zeux series instruments that I can import into amigasam (a program I wrote for extracting instruments from .MOD music files)?
03:20:57 <madbr> most samples should play C at 8363hz
03:21:06 <madbr> but some are on different octaves
03:21:10 <zzo38> The format it uses is currently not compatible with any program other than AmigaMML (another program I wrote).
03:21:23 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, although some aren't tuned to C at 8363
03:21:46 <madbr> then you have to do it by ear
03:21:57 <madbr> figure out the transposition and reverse it
03:23:10 <zzo38> Yes I could try that
03:23:34 <madbr> there is no other way
03:34:28 <zzo38> If you want to you can also try to use this amigasam format in other software, although currently there isn't any as far as I know of.
03:35:43 <madbr> I just rip samples straight out of amiga MODs in impulse tracker
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03:36:31 <zzo38> That works, although MOD format stores no transpose information
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03:44:31 <zzo38> This export format contains not only transpose, but also loop and base volume (which is not the same thing as default volume, although it will use the same value as default volume by default).
03:44:52 <zzo38> And the finetune, which is part of .MOD format anyways.
03:45:20 <zzo38> Most tracker music software can probably import directly from other music files and export them to whatever format they need
03:47:01 <zzo38> I know .IT format has its own transpose features and so on.
03:53:10 <zzo38> OpenMPT has no "reload current file" function as far as I can see, although the ENSATA DS emulator does have such a thing.
03:53:53 <madbr> reload current file?
03:54:59 <zzo38> I mean just a shortcut key to cause it to reload the current file which is open. Many emulators and music players have no such shortcut.
03:59:49 <madbr> it's usual to do this on a module because normally when you have a song open in MPT you're editing it in MPT
03:59:57 <madbr> and not with like 2 or 3 programs at the same time
04:00:40 <zzo38> MPT has no SQL editor or MML compiler integrated with it; if they did have both things then you probably wouldn't ever need to edit it with other programs at the same time.
04:01:48 <zzo38> (And if even those are insufficient, you could use SELECT LOAD_EXTENSION('more_stuff.dll'); or whatever)
04:02:10 <madbr> the point to using mpt is to avoid having to deal with mml or similar stuff
04:02:28 <madbr> it has a full featured pattern editor just for this
04:02:56 <madbr> the pattern editor has like thousands of manhours of work in it to make it work well
04:03:21 <zzo38> OpenMPT does have a replace menu, which can do a few things, but not quite everything you might want; I think using SQL to do batch replacements of this kind would work better.
04:03:44 <madbr> that's probably overdesign
04:04:06 <zzo38> Then don't need a replace menu and all of that stuff
04:04:10 <madbr> most users don't know SQL
04:04:48 <madbr> also the replace menu is specifically tailored to MPT's music data
04:04:55 <zzo38> But sure you could make one table to add things into the menu so that such thing can be added on
04:04:56 <madbr> that's a significant advantage
04:05:22 <madbr> also that would add dependency on some SQL library
04:05:36 <madbr> which would increase loading time, size etc
04:05:39 <zzo38> Yes it would; I use SQLite myself
04:06:09 <madbr> bloating software like that is not a good idea
04:06:47 <zzo38> I know, although mptrack.exe is already 2791 KB and has too many things compared to that really.
04:07:00 <zzo38> All the VST and stuff we don't need.
04:07:10 <zzo38> After all they aren't even portable!
04:07:29 <madbr> VST is 1000000 times more useful than adding SQL support for editing note data
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04:07:39 <zzo38> I don't really think so.
04:07:41 <madbr> MPT was never portable
04:07:55 <madbr> it uses like... MFC
04:07:57 <zzo38> Modern version are adding more compatible playback though
04:08:04 <zzo38> That's what I mean
04:08:13 <madbr> the playback library is portable yes
04:08:28 <madbr> but the program itself is 100% win32 only
04:08:39 <zzo38> Yes, but that isn't what I meant at all
04:09:06 <zzo38> And of course it doesn't even have to be MPT; it is possible to make/use other software too, with same playback
04:09:13 <madbr> also doing replacements in pattern data can usually be faked with the existing block commands
04:09:27 <madbr> or by manipulating instrument parameters
04:09:44 <madbr> VST support is NOT fakable
04:10:25 <madbr> no amount of pattern data editing will let you fake a reverb
04:10:45 <zzo38> I still don't like VST and use Csound instead; it is open-source and much easier to edit than VST in my opinion, and also doesn't require GUI like VST does.
04:11:19 <zzo38> And if you use VST then these .MOD/.IT/whatever aren't a portable files anymore anyways.
04:11:28 <zzo38> You should make it a different program!
04:12:12 <madbr> GUIs are a feature
04:12:30 <zzo38> Yes, but it ought not to be a required feature.
04:12:46 <madbr> tweaking a synthesizer patch by text file is bothersome and slow
04:13:12 <madbr> the gui exists to make that process faster
04:13:22 <zzo38> I find it much easier and much more powerful though. Csound does support GUI too, though.
04:13:30 <madbr> since your patch is easier to edit the result is normally going to be better
04:13:46 <zzo38> So you can use GUI in Csound if you want to, either using its own FLTK and stuff or using external programs such as Blue.
04:13:52 <madbr> also GUIs are a significant time investment, you might as well use it
04:14:16 <madbr> ok link to one good looking GUI made for csound
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04:15:01 <zzo38> But I find it more convenient to edit the text file directly. GUI may be helpful to try tweaking the stuff, but even if I do such thing, I want to export it into a text that can be included in another file, and then be able to put in varying parameters and all of that stuff too
04:15:26 <zzo38> I don't know what GUI are available for Csound much, but I believe Blue has a lot of features.
04:15:37 <madbr> but does it look good
04:15:39 <zzo38> Csound can load VST as well, though, so you can still use all of the VST GUIs.
04:15:43 <madbr> and is it practical to edit
04:15:52 <zzo38> Why do you care if it "look good"?
04:16:19 <madbr> because I don't want to strain my eyes
04:16:21 <zzo38> To me it is not so practical to edit, but neither is any tracker music software. But many people who do use it, find it very practical and useul to use.
04:16:37 <zzo38> And I believe it does actually allow you to change the color if you don't like the blue colors.
04:17:35 <zzo38> Csound also has the capability to be used as a VST.
04:18:00 <madbr> it's too open-ended
04:18:29 <zzo38> However, I don't really like VST; they cost too much and you have to get each one individually, and it is Windows-only and difficult to do the advanced stuff that Csound is capable to do.
04:18:40 <madbr> you can in theory do everything in max-msp
04:19:34 <madbr> in practice you can do everything but it's held by duck tape, it's never tight and it's not really conductive to actually composing music
04:20:01 <madbr> there's a reason VSTs cost money
04:20:03 <zzo38> I find Csound works very well though, and so do many others.
04:20:13 <madbr> high development time
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04:20:49 <zzo38> Even if they don't cost money, I still don't like VST, so I don't use it.
04:21:02 <madbr> it's that high development time that makes it so that the synth isn't held together with duct tape and it doesn't break whenever you try to do anything
04:21:30 <madbr> also one big feature is that they are made by people who know what they're doing so everything is implemented the right way around
04:21:49 <madbr> for instance, and envelope (ADSR) can be implemented the right way or the wrong way
04:22:11 <zzo38> Csound doesn't "break whenever you try to do anything" either, and they are also made by people who know what they are doing, and are developed over a much longer period of time than VST, and is also open-source (GNU LGPL).
04:22:12 <madbr> if you get a stupid synth like some thing a dude made in synthedit, then it's going to be implemented the wrong way
04:23:29 <zzo38> Csound has a lot of commands included so that you can just start working on it right away.
04:24:03 <zzo38> But I find it works best.
04:24:07 <madbr> your feedback loop (change something - test - change something - test - change something - test...) is never going to be short
04:24:09 <zzo38> Some people don't, but they don't have to use it!
04:24:23 <madbr> short feedback loop is super important
04:24:27 <madbr> and csound doesn't have it
04:24:56 <madbr> that's why I use impulse tracker
04:24:59 <zzo38> I find I can do it without taking too long.
04:25:01 <madbr> it has a short feedback loop
04:25:08 <madbr> zzo38 : that's NOT short
04:25:42 <zzo38> All that means is that you are good at Impulse Tracker and that you are not very good at Csound.
04:26:03 <zzo38> If you like Impulse Tracker, then use it, but I don't like it, and can work faster in other ways
04:26:03 <madbr> there's a difference between hearing changes as you make them
04:26:21 <madbr> and hearing them 10 seconds later after a text editor save
04:26:47 <zzo38> It is your assumption that you have to do it one at a time! Well, you don't!
04:27:21 <madbr> no you have to work super fast
04:27:33 <madbr> otherwise you forget your musical ideas before you can type them in
04:27:49 <zzo38> That is not how I think of music, though.
04:28:21 <madbr> ultra tight musical data editors (piano rolls, trackers, etc) are not a luxury
04:28:24 <madbr> they are a necessity
04:28:26 <zzo38> Do you ever work with writing down musical notations?
04:28:45 <madbr> I've done it a couple of times
04:29:17 <madbr> It's a different ballgame... it's kindof like text editing, but with musical symbols
04:29:26 <madbr> where the goal is to produce an easy to read part
04:29:31 <zzo38> Writing it by hand is going to be a bit slow, but I have done it nevertheless, even in the bus.
04:29:54 <zzo38> I find the text file almost as easy to read, but much faster to enter/edit.
04:29:55 <MDude> Muisc notation: "Toot toot honk toot"
04:30:13 <madbr> also I'm not too good at sight reading
04:30:17 <madbr> which is very hard imho
04:30:52 <MDude> "Where am I about to dissapear to?"
04:31:00 <madbr> zzo38 : how do you know if the melody you've entered is strong or not so interesting?
04:31:13 <zzo38> Then why do you think you are a very good musician if you are such bad at sight reading? I find it important for writing music.
04:31:17 <MDude> Also, where am I going to put the extra pumpkin point if there's no room on my board now?"
04:31:19 <zzo38> madbr: I can make good guesses by my mind.
04:31:35 <MDude> Wait whty am I talkigna bout rthwe stream here.
04:31:36 <madbr> zzo38 : I'm just comparatively better at other things
04:31:38 <zzo38> Sometimes it is wrong, but not so likely.
04:32:00 <madbr> zzo38 : sure that's an ok first guess, but to really know you have to hear
04:32:04 <zzo38> madbr: O, that's fine
04:32:13 <madbr> which is why I use a tracker
04:32:32 <madbr> then I can instantly play it back
04:32:43 <madbr> and fix the mistakes, improve how it sounds etc
04:32:45 <zzo38> I find that it is also difficult to know even if it is only a few notes, even if you play them right away; I need to put all notes together to make the music to listen if it is wrong or not.
04:33:07 <madbr> try out 3 or 4 ways of doing voice leading in a bunch of crazy jazz chords
04:33:10 <zzo38> But, really it depend what kind of way work best for you for writing a music.
04:33:32 <zzo38> I use classical rather than jazz chords, so perhaps that makes a difference, too.
04:34:20 <madbr> I've kindof half forgot the counterpoint rules so I just wing it
04:34:51 <madbr> and then I listen to know if it works
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04:37:08 <zzo38> Although some people don't use MML, tracker, piano roll, or anything like that and prefer just to play it on the piano and record the audio onto a tape or CD. I know someone who write music and prefers this method.
04:37:23 <zzo38> He plays guitar too, not only piano.
04:37:57 <madbr> I use piano to try out new ideas, try to figure out new chords to add to my style etc
04:38:12 <madbr> and just improvise around
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04:39:32 <madbr> I guess piano + pencil on music sheet works as a music composition technique
04:39:40 <zzo38> I do know how to play piano too, and do sometimes try stuff too, but usually I play a music that is already written down; either from a book or I write it down myself and then play it. I don't do it so often though because I usually work with computer instead; it is much faster.
04:41:16 <zzo38> At time of Bach and so on they would always only be writing it down and that kind of stuff. Some composers even were deaf and still could write music.
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04:43:47 <madbr> you should probably learn jazz chords btw
04:44:39 <zzo38> madbr: Maybe I will some day. I did read a few things about it from my sister's books actually, but don't know everything about it. They sometimes work, sometimes not so well, really. Some jazz music are good and some are worse, I find.
04:44:48 <zzo38> I find it too slow to type music into the tracker grid and to go back and edit it, so that is why I think that using a integrated tracker+SQL+MML would work best (it is one reason, anyways).
04:45:35 <zzo38> All extra menus and stuff and macro and so on can be defined externally rather than having to put all of that stuff into the program at once.
04:45:49 <madbr> you should learn to use a DAW
04:45:53 <madbr> that's where it's at
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04:46:49 <zzo38> I have used DAW, but find it is difficult, and yet I would also need to buy a MIDI input device.
04:47:09 <zzo38> Actually the digital piano I do have supports MIDI, but it is in a different room from the computer.
04:47:22 <madbr> but it's what has the highest payoff
04:47:54 <zzo38> I find Csound can do everything that DAW can do (even real-time, MIDI input, etc), and it is also free, too.
04:48:29 <zzo38> I also don't need DAW because I am not a professional music writer.
04:48:35 <madbr> on paper csound does everything
04:48:50 <madbr> in practice, it's just not a music composition tool
04:49:05 <zzo38> Well, to me it is, as well as several others.
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04:52:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pluso]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39820 * Icepy * (+1362) Created page with "Pluso is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Icepy|Icepy]] in 2014. This programming language is called pluso because it has to commands: plus and output. T..."
04:53:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pluso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39821&oldid=39820 * Icepy * (-1)
04:56:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pluso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39822&oldid=39821 * Icepy * (+28) /* Hello world */
04:58:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pluso]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39823&oldid=39822 * Icepy * (+27)
04:58:37 <Sgeo> [S] Rex Duodecim Angelus released
04:58:47 <zzo38> Csound has been in development since 1985, and is still being updated today. Csound does support real-time and interactive if that helps you. There are many GUI and other stuff. Blue does have piano rolls, tracker style format, algorithmic generation, and more.
04:59:58 <zzo38> Things you say about Csound and MML and stuff being not useful is simply not true. The fact is, it depend your style of writing music what works best for you. If you don't find Csound and MML useful, then don't use them!
05:01:37 <madbr> impulse tracker is embedded onto my muscle memory
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05:02:04 <zzo38> Yes, use it if that helps you.
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05:10:57 <zzo38> But I wrote AmigaMML so that I can use that instead.
05:16:50 <madbr> one of my current pet project is trying to come up with a language for a megazeux successor
05:17:03 <zzo38> I also find that Impulse Tracker format is too complicated, as well as being too limited in some ways too (you cannot have multiple effects per cell)
05:17:30 <zzo38> madbr: Interesting idea; I also have many idea relating to such thing! Mine is probably completely different.
05:18:13 <madbr> - multiple "threads" per object
05:20:28 <madbr> - basic data types are floats, strings (std::string basically), vectors of floats (std::vector basically). variables are either local to objects, or global
05:21:14 <madbr> - object-local variables can be "generic" (ie all objects have that variable and you can read/write it on other objects)
05:21:40 <madbr> - thread supports basic megazeux-like flow control (wait 1, end, goto, send...)
05:22:40 <Sgeo> I still love this art http://wow.zamimg.com/images/hearthstone/cards/enus/animated/GAME_005_premium.gif?4443
05:23:15 <madbr> - objects have some forced built-in variables like x, y, vx, vy (velocity), ax, ay (acceleration), hflip, hp...
05:24:19 <madbr> - you can send messages to a collide box
05:24:43 <madbr> - objects clip against the background (and probably other "solid" objects)
05:25:23 <madbr> - background is 2d tiled (designed for tiled 2d games like platformers, space shooters, zelda-likes and rpgs)
05:26:23 <madbr> - each tile in the tileset can have various attributes such as "solid"
05:26:36 <madbr> - slope tiles are also built-in
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05:28:39 <zzo38> It doesn't have much to do with MegaZeux really, although may have some things inspired by MegaZeux; it is good though. Completely different from my own ideas, which is something closer to ZZT and MegaZeux.
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05:29:11 <madbr> the concept is geared towards 2d tiled games
05:29:22 <madbr> which means it needs a reasonable of 2d physics
05:29:44 <madbr> also objects cannot be tiles anymore
05:30:11 <zzo38> Yes I can see, what you are writing is good and stuff, but different from my own ideas which aren't meant for the same kind of games really
05:31:55 <madbr> what's your design?
05:34:07 <zzo38> It still has color/thing/param like MegaZeux, and the "thing" is either a primitive (which can be user-defined in the format file), or if it is too high, the thing/param together designate a robot ID. Therefore, the maximum number of robots depends on how many primitives are defined.
05:34:53 <zzo38> Font height is a global setting of the game, and there are four fonts: system, text, robot, and object. The "robot" set can be set per board; "text" and "object" per world; "system" is immutable.
05:35:49 <zzo38> Many things are now defined in the format file (a standard one is provided, which you edit for your game if necessary).
05:36:21 <zzo38> No more built-in ammo, health, lives, etc; you can define those yourself.
05:36:48 <zzo38> A few primitive objects and Robotic commands are built-in, while others are defined in the format file.
05:37:10 <madbr> and how does the format file define new object types
05:37:37 <zzo38> Similar to what I have experimented modifying MegaZeux, but in a much better way than that.
05:37:53 <zzo38> Things like board properties are also defined in the format file.
05:38:18 <zzo38> That is, which board properties are available; the settings for each board are done in the editor like ZZT and MegaZeux do.
05:38:41 <madbr> does it expand the graphics?
05:39:22 <zzo38> Graphics would be similar to MegaZeux, but with four banks of 256 characters and two bits per pixel, and a customizable (per-world) font height, but always 8 pixels wide.
05:39:45 <madbr> why not 4 bits per pixel?
05:41:19 <zzo38> Due to the way colors will work, for simplicity, and to be closer to the MegaZeux. Each tile drawn on screen still has a background and foreground color, and one bit per pixel is used to select the alternate palette rather than the default one.
05:41:55 <zzo38> So, each tile still has colors same as in MegaZeux graphics mode 0, or PC text mode.
05:45:02 <madbr> one of my issues with megazeux is that it's hard to make nice action games because the tile-by-tile motion always feels kinda clunky
05:45:21 <madbr> especially when all your sprites are 1x1
05:45:45 <zzo38> Number of built-in primitive objects is probably small, perhaps only empty, custom wall, and player (for things like GO SEEK, but player is now optional). All others are defined in the format file.
05:46:48 <zzo38> I can understand you, although those are not the kind of action games I would be trying to design with MegaZeux anyways.
05:49:01 <madbr> also 1x1 sprites are tiny
05:49:28 <madbr> forces you to do all the character development/identification through text
05:49:45 <zzo38> I prefer doing character development/idenficiation through text anyways
05:50:02 <zzo38> I don't really like cutscenes
05:50:56 <madbr> I think the way is large sprites
05:51:03 <madbr> but this is hard to do in mzx
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05:51:57 <zzo38> Yes it is hard to do in MZX, but to me that is not the point; they are not important for these kind of computer game.
05:54:15 <madbr> for me they are important
05:54:36 <zzo38> madbr: Well, that is why you make up that new one difference instead; it is still good too.
05:55:11 <zzo38> But I just don't like cutscenes and prefer text window.
05:56:03 <madbr> I'm not talking about cutscenes
05:56:14 <madbr> they're a different thing
05:56:20 <madbr> I'm talking about in game
05:56:40 <zzo38> It depend what type of game, really.
05:56:49 <madbr> if you try to make a game with more than 1x1 characters in mzx
05:57:00 <madbr> you either have to use sprites
05:57:07 <madbr> which are imho not very well designed
05:57:16 <zzo38> MZX isn't really suitable for the kind of game with more than 1x1 characters
05:57:20 <madbr> and also don't interact with anything else which sucks
05:57:31 <zzo38> But it is a different kind of games anyways
05:57:58 <madbr> I want larger characters because that improves emotional impact
05:58:18 <madbr> and helps make action games less clunky
05:58:29 <zzo38> To me, it makes less things fit on the screen.
05:59:08 <zzo38> Using MegaZeux like that seem to be, you should be using something else. And your ideas can be used to make up such a program for this kind of design, it can be good idea!
06:02:26 <zzo38> But the thing I am trying to make is an entirely different kind of thing than yours, and for different purposes.
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06:39:55 <Sgeo> http://www.clickhole.com/video/what-adorable-little-girl-says-will-melt-your-hear-286
06:40:01 <Sgeo> I may end up addicted to ClickHole
06:54:43 <shachaf> Sgeo: are you playing the clicking game
06:54:47 <shachaf> unlocking those achievements
06:57:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Icepy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39824&oldid=39693 * Icepy * (+52)
06:59:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39825&oldid=39791 * Icepy * (+12) /* P */
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08:42:39 <b_jonas> is anyone considering to create a BANCStar parody language yet? as in, an esolang where the source code tries to mimic BANCStar source code.
08:43:35 <zzo38> Probably not yet, as far as I know
08:47:51 <mroman> It's based on lanterna
08:48:03 <mroman> (http://code.google.com/p/lanterna/)
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08:58:48 <mroman> b_jonas: If you have some specific ideas...?
08:59:35 <mroman> I was thinking of roughly having a prompt file per application, 12 form files and 12 screen files
08:59:53 <mroman> Form-Files describe the TextUI
09:00:02 <mroman> and the screen file is the code behind each Form
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09:01:21 <b_jonas> mroman: I was actually thinking of something that doesn't behave like BANCStar, it's only the source code that looks like BANCStar
09:01:34 <b_jonas> so source code must have lines with four optional numbers per line,
09:02:01 <b_jonas> numbers are between -32768 and 32767, and 0 is sometimes omitted
09:02:31 <b_jonas> and sometimes the last digit or the first digit is taken separately
09:02:53 <mroman> so... no prompt file too?
09:03:17 <b_jonas> if you just mean an array of 2000 variables, then sure, that could exist
09:06:55 <b_jonas> I was thinking of encoding a scheme program (with some limitations) as numbers such that each positive number encodes a symbol in the first four digits and a parenthesis pattern in the last digit,
09:07:11 <b_jonas> and negative numbers encode a literal (numeric or character),
09:07:16 <b_jonas> but this isn't good enough,
09:07:45 <b_jonas> because it wouldn't replicate the way how there are lots of zeros, often multiple zeros in a line, and how the first of the four numbers in a line has a different distribution.
09:09:22 <mroman> If you have something that's good enough do it ;)
09:09:34 <mroman> writing a bancstar-mimic is currently on my todo list not in the first place ;)
09:09:43 <mroman> I've just made some sketches but nothing more
09:10:55 <mroman> currently on top of my todo-list is my CoreWar-clone
09:14:50 <b_jonas> I'll think more about this
09:16:54 <oerjan> must... break out... of logs' endianness discussion...
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09:47:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39826&oldid=39801 * Zzo38 * (+440)
09:47:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39827&oldid=39826 * Zzo38 * (-1)
09:54:32 <oerjan> fungot: so what do you think of this eugene goostman guy
09:54:41 <fungot> oerjan: children's online privacy protection act please see their homepages and check out :) is it possible to run very often, but it's still better than nothing
09:54:59 <oerjan> fungot: it sounds like you've been taken in completely
09:55:01 <fungot> oerjan: " this is a bad idea anyway to avoid that one! i was raised on thought balloons!!
09:58:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
10:05:24 <b_jonas> please add the bibul style, based on http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/bibul which was downloaded from http://www.lolcatbible.com/
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10:43:02 <fizzie> fungot: You were not raised on thought balloons, stop cheating people.
10:43:02 <fungot> fizzie: can you say java is the best language for fnord
10:43:24 <fizzie> fungot: I can say that but it doesn't make it true.
10:43:26 <fungot> fizzie: first of all, it is not
10:43:57 <fizzie> Right, that's what I just said.
10:44:59 <fizzie> @tell boily I don't get it
10:45:53 <boily> @tell fizzie me neither.
10:47:18 <shachaf> fungot: what's the best language for fnord
10:47:19 <fungot> shachaf: others wouldn't even think about that, since it ( a, b).... is that a group won't make substantial political progress without appealing to a majority.
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10:49:07 <oerjan> fizzie: you didn't see the whole thing http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg
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10:50:15 <oerjan> also i already google translated it for boily but i'm not sure he realized
10:50:34 <boily> fungot: don't think, no majority... is it forth?
10:50:53 <fungot> boily: it should look like before i saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness starving hysterical naked!
10:50:53 <boily> fungot: forth it is.
10:50:53 <fungot> boily: nope, just something i couldn't get to sleep... will check in some other place in memory
10:50:55 <boily> fungot: okay then. I'll ask you later.
10:51:00 <fungot> boily: gwydion if you generate an absolutely disgusting amount of getter/ setter methods and constructors are in that list too. ( let ( ( x 1)
10:51:16 <boily> oerjan: I think I remember realizing you translated it, but I'm not sure.
10:52:10 <fungot> shachaf: they use css to find the code, i'm more a pi guy than a fnord location whose contents is initialized to zero
10:53:06 <shachaf> fungot: we are all of us fnord locations whose contents is initialized to zero
10:53:06 <fungot> shachaf: guile seems to be particularly welcome on irc.
10:53:19 <shachaf> fungot: more than you know hth
10:53:21 <fungot> shachaf: ( lambda ( x y) x y)? what operation would that perform, if ( proc-a) is not
10:53:54 <fungot> boily: they forced the addition of laml
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11:09:38 <fizzie> "One delicious super ice cream", then.
11:09:53 <fizzie> (It was loading p. slow on this thing.)
11:26:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Insomnia]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39828&oldid=13211 * 175.156.179.223 * (+125) /* About command 8 */ new section
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14:31:45 <ion> On what planet was this released? https://github.com/haskell-distributed/distributed-process/blob/eae0a41/ChangeLog#L1
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15:07:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fishstacks]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39829&oldid=39214 * 75.102.84.17 * (+1)
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15:25:06 <b_jonas> I just misread "serialized" as "sterilized". Must be Friday.
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16:10:11 <mroman> Some objects bette be sterilized!
16:24:45 <fizzie> Somehow I have gotten stuck permanently "Online" in Skype.
16:25:01 <fizzie> At least I'm reasonably sure I have no Skype clients running anywhere.
16:34:15 <int-e> a google search suggests: "The solution is: Unlink your Skype account and your Microsoft account"
16:36:24 <fizzie> I don't have them linked, so I can't follow that.
16:36:25 <int-e> (from this thread: http://community.skype.com/t5/Mac/Why-do-I-always-show-as-quot-online-quot/td-p/1038298 the first 4 posts are hilarious)
16:36:35 <fizzie> (I'm kind of proud that I thought of that without a Google search.)
16:37:25 <int-e> send a cease and desist letter to the NSA demanding that they stop running Skype clients on your behalf.
16:38:24 <fizzie> The last page of the thread did let me know of /showplaces, which is a command I was sort of wondering whether it existed.
16:39:20 <fizzie> I only have one online endpoint, the one where I did /showplaces in.
16:39:38 <fizzie> And when I shut down that client, I'm apparently still listed as "Online".
16:41:23 <fizzie> I also manually set my status to "Offline" and I still show up as "Online".
16:41:39 <fizzie> The NSA explanation sounds likely at this point.
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20:42:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39830 * Sacchan * (+2266) Created page with "'''Smilefuck''' is an esoteric programming language similar to [[brainfuck]]. It was created on June 6th, 2014 by [[User:Sacchan]]. == Memory layout == The datastructure mani..."
20:43:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39831&oldid=39830 * Sacchan * (-4)
20:43:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39832&oldid=39831 * Sacchan * (+10)
20:45:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39833&oldid=39832 * Sacchan * (-44)
20:45:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39834&oldid=39833 * Sacchan * (+1)
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21:15:51 <password2> wait , does the topic update on each wiki edit?
21:16:13 <Bike> the topic? clearly not
21:16:16 <Bike> that's just HackEgo talking
21:16:40 <zzo38> You can filter out those messages if you don't like them, like I have done.
21:16:42 <password2> sorry i saw colored text and thought topic
21:17:32 <Bike> >2011 >not being used to colored text
21:18:21 <Bike> my grandpa actually thought it was 2015 a few days ago, that was odd
21:21:09 * Melvar checks that the way ST separates threads would work fine in idris.
21:21:40 <shachaf> Bike: what's with the whole "calling people nerds" thing
21:23:03 <shachaf> is the joke "i'm a nerd myself and therefore it's funny that i would call somebody else one. and in addition i don't actually think it's insulting i just use it as if it was an insult"
21:23:11 <Melvar> “let v = runST (\x => newVar True) in runST (\y => readVar v)” → “Can't unify ST s (MutVar s Bool) with ST x (MutVar y iType)” (x and y named for illustrative purposes)
21:23:15 <Bike> i dunno, probably
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21:55:13 <zzo38> The thing I want to know of someone else knows, is a way I can define the way to define a set of new symbols (which may be nullary, unary, binary, etc) for sequent calculus, and primitive rules to go with them, such that: * These rules only use the new symbols on the bottom and only outermost of a term. * It can be proven that there are no new theorems which do not involve these new symbols. * Such proof can be used for the computer to perform
21:57:39 <oerjan> zzo38: i think in type theory those are called soundness proofs, although i don't know much about the details.
21:58:14 <oerjan> or at least close to soundness proofs
21:58:51 <oerjan> girl genius still hasn't updated today :(
21:59:03 <oerjan> those things from wednesday still look pretty scary, though.
22:03:12 <diginet> lel this channel has may-may arrows? >mfw
22:03:27 <oerjan> what's a may-may arrow
22:04:02 <Bike> probably 4chan style quotes. >quoted text i only use them because ia m insufferable
22:04:22 <Bike> it's just irc green, of course
22:04:44 <oerjan> diginet: i don't think i've seen them before today
22:05:16 <olsner> bancstar in topic, did something happen to that? I remember we were trying to figure out how to figure out where it went
22:05:22 <zzo38> oerjan: Soundness proofs? I don't know much about that either.
22:06:26 <oerjan> olsner: mroman got in touch with a guy who has a github repository on it, and some additional info was dug out
22:06:43 <oerjan> and zzo38 has been reverse engineering
22:07:05 <oerjan> and the wiki got a page on it.
22:08:04 <oerjan> (the eleven was my attempt at a subtle joke on some quote approximately like "the program only 10 people can read")
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22:16:20 <FireFly> olsner: the wiki has a decent article on it now
22:17:02 <FireFly> it helps to not forget the lines I read a few minutes ago
22:19:43 <diginet> has anyone here ever used META-II?
22:25:12 <zzo38> I have not used META-II
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22:31:10 <oerjan> hm news about an ad turning on people's xbox via the speech recognition
22:31:30 <oerjan> i smell the next annoying internet prank
22:32:04 <MDude> Yes, it will be so nice when speech recognition is sued more widely.
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22:32:44 <MDude> With that and text to speech engines, I'll soon be able to have a group of electronic devices chattering with each other, all mistaking each other's commands for those of humans.
22:32:46 <oerjan> i find your use of "sued" intriguing, as i can just about imagine you _didn't_ misspell it.
22:33:11 <MDude> That could be interesting as well.
22:34:13 <oerjan> a virus spreading through speech recognition...
22:34:20 <oerjan> or at least a bot loop.
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22:37:08 <zzo38> I don't like speech command anyways and consider it is a bad idea. When dialing a telephone number that includes such a thing, I normally just push zero right away and hope it works. In the case of directory assistance, it does work. But in one case, someone told me, they had to tell them that they are an idiot before the computer tried to connect them to an operator.
22:37:23 <zzo38> The numbered menus I am OK with though
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22:43:19 <Sgeo> What is the deal with today's Dilbert?
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22:48:00 <MDude> I guess it wants us to eat dark chocolate?
22:48:08 <MDude> I'm not going to argue with that.
22:49:07 <MDude> Also, the conclusion at the end is itself at least somewhat magical thinking.
22:55:05 <zzo38> The reason I wanted to know about those things with proofs about new symbol in sequent calculus is presumable to make something like that in the type/class definitions for Gentzen esolang
22:58:25 <oerjan> MDude: the worship of rationality does not necessarily come with the ability to distinguish it.
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22:59:28 <oerjan> (above statement probably also magical thinking.)
23:03:32 <zzo38> How to tell Mozilla the maximum amount of time and memory to take while parsing CSS?
23:03:59 <zzo38> Or, really perhaps, rendering CSS
23:08:15 <monotone_> Well, you can tell it zero by disabling stylesheets.
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23:08:43 <polytone> I don't think there are many other choices.
23:23:27 <zzo38> Maybe UniMod format is better than Impulse Tracker?
23:24:43 <MDude> oerjan: Yeah, I meant that was what was up with the comic.
23:25:56 <zzo38> Then you don't need only one effect per note, I think.
23:27:13 <zzo38> Or a simplified version of such could help, possibly, by removing some redundant stuff
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