< 1402618024 305236 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1402618028 385966 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the wii u < 1402618064 907318 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, depends on how you define alive, there :P < 1402618173 864854 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in 5 years when someone comes up with a new architecture, is it going to be little or big endian? :D < 1402618201 72739 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :back then there were many more influential big endian architectures (68k, mips) < 1402618208 190651 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's down to power < 1402618299 874420 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what endianness is the Mill? < 1402618303 820168 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :sony and microsoft switched to x86 right? < 1402618308 317119 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1402618336 104354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there is any technical advantage to big endian on the architectural level < 1402618350 227085 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty clearly worse for assembly up < 1402618365 23459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: oh and network order is big-endian < 1402618368 523012 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's always going to be relevant < 1402618433 161659 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just always use ASCII filename anyways and require program I write to always require input to be ASCII filenames too, therefore avoiding any such problem. < 1402618446 880921 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, too, solve problems by ignoring them < 1402618461 961293 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott : but then that's probably never going to be in code that has to be fast < 1402618486 276596 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Non-ASCII filenames are a bad idea anyways. < 1402618488 729874 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :by now most performance sensitive code is floating point anyways < 1402618494 73611 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: you don't think high performance matters for network code? sure it's going to be IO-bound, but ignoring CPU cost hurts scalability < 1402618506 423347 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just said it < 1402618509 360826 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's IO bound < 1402618517 307520 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that sentence has two parts though. < 1402618519 376455 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's full of loads, stores and jumps < 1402618527 282872 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should see the amount of work people put into optimising HTTP parsing < 1402618529 292062 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's never going to be performance relevant < 1402618548 273336 :Bike!~Glossina@75-164-160-160.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one article about O times being obsolete is all about caching versus network code... < 1402618566 278935 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :any code that deals with this is going to be limited by memory loads or branch mispredictions < 1402618589 127486 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1402618610 634123 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't matter if you lose 5 cycles shifting data around because that's 5 cycles where the cpu is waiting on the cache/ram < 1402618610 919480 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Filenames with spaces are also a bit bad idea, and with control characters. < 1402618621 68462 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: anyway, I have no idea what at all the relevance of performance-sensitivity is < 1402618628 119479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that the original topic was endianness of UTF-16 filenames < 1402618628 391514 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple < 1402618639 204900 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :performance wasn't even mentioned < 1402618653 301701 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're not in performance oriented code endianness doesn't even matter < 1402618663 369068 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just shift around the bytes if you're in the wrong endian < 1402618681 728460 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:28:49 don't worry. some utf16 is garanteed to creep in. good lock with endianness! < 1402618684 742279 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:29:12 doesn't matter, almost all big endian platforms are dead < 1402618696 559456 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point is it does matter because big endian is here to stay (e.g. because network order) < 1402618701 913719 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't just dismiss endianness concerns < 1402618704 550541 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has nothing to do with performance < 1402618706 508560 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many libraries insist on UTF-8 filenames, some programs use other codepages, but generally in all cases ASCII is a subset of such thing, therefore it work better. < 1402618730 576059 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if power falls out of relevance, all new architectures will be little endian < 1402618756 237402 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but architectures are not the only things that can make endianness relevant... < 1402618771 598408 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: I am not so sure. MMIX is big-endian. < 1402618788 382381 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if all architectures are little endian then there's no point to big endian utf-16 < 1402618804 855381 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though tbh there's barely any point to utf-16 at all anyways < 1402618819 419521 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I do think small-endian is better. < 1402618841 657668 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care about requiring the endianness for the purpose of parsing UTF-16. < 1402618899 183552 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unicode byte order marks are stupid and whoever came up with that idea should be hit < 1402618911 133572 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/byte order marks // < 1402618922 771563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: but there are reasons things would be big endian even if all architectures are little endian < 1402618943 792190 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :legacy format here and there yes < 1402618950 451323 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, the network byte order is big endian, so it is ubiquitous. (though I guess in e.g. HTTP or whatever, use of UTF-16 specifies endianness explicitly) < 1402618963 855505 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think the standard network byte order qualifies as legacy...? < 1402618967 973266 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1402618983 955760 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :legacy doesn't mean it's out of use < 1402618993 339898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. then I define everything on your computer as legacy and therefore completely irrelevant < 1402619003 481068 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1402619031 589119 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case I mean as in "If it was defined yesterday morning it would've been little endian. but it wasn't" < 1402619048 70159 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not legacy as more like a legacy decision < 1402619053 778136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we are always shackled by the past. < 1402619147 334500 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1402619158 810880 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've written code with < 1402619190 611069 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ifdef BIG_ENDIAN #error Fix this #endif < 1402619210 734374 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't expect to be going through that code any time soon < 1402619216 376282 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :C code should never depend on endianness anyways. < 1402619253 319490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like explicit casting to bytes is dumb when bitwise ops say what you actually mean, compile identically, and are inherently portable (the operations you are doing on the values has nothing to do with your computer's internal representation of data) < 1402619263 368641 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :would happen less often if there was a sensible way of reading shorts/ints from a raw byte stream < 1402619298 61166 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have the correct preprocessor symbols you can use them to compile a shorter kind of code in one case than the other < 1402619314 791842 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott : essentially it's a file load/store issue < 1402619346 80706 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :once it's inside C++ values then of course it's in the architecture's natural byte order and everything is fine < 1402619361 611197 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: it is not < 1402619374 71972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: http://commandcenter.blogspot.be/2012/04/byte-order-fallacy.html < 1402619385 740421 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no reason to depend on architecture endianness for load/store operations, ever < 1402619394 707245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is more complicated, less clear, less portable, and no faster < 1402619421 412699 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the code that depends on endianness can fail to work for reasons unrelated to endianness < 1402619424 177765 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i = (data[0]<<0) | (data[1]<<8) | (data[2]<<16) | (data[3]<<24); < 1402619426 271303 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is correct < 1402619430 847647 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also hard to read < 1402619453 15667 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that's hard to read, you have no business processing files with bits in them. < 1402619467 648891 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially because that can become a single read_uint16 function or whatever. < 1402619478 371493 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what happens usually < 1402619489 479300 :sambora!~chrome-o-@64.253.218.27 JOIN :#esoteric < 1402619489 666587 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :except every program has its own definition of those < 1402619498 529206 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they never made it to the standard library < 1402619526 450952 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there's the people that use #pragma pack < 1402619549 443395 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and essentially use a structure definition to essentially define a data loading format < 1402619609 46374 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but because the gcc guys and msvc are too stupid to agree on anything this involves multiple macros (one for gcc one of msvc) < 1402619642 558301 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus of course an extra "bit reverse everything" function for when you end up having to do a big endian port < 1402619655 441741 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the data can contain not only endianness and number of different sizes, also pointers, and variable lists, etc. < 1402619672 450361 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't have pointers < 1402619676 189122 :Bike!~Glossina@75-164-160-160.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck, that ain't hard to read < 1402619676 729882 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's data from a file < 1402619689 450088 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bike: for one value it's not < 1402619690 893491 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course C makes such serialization difficult, but some programming language (such as SQL) don't have this problem. < 1402619708 295638 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: I know it doesn't, but due to the file format it might be variable and so on < 1402619711 896047 :Bike!~Glossina@75-164-160-160.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sql, savior of us all < 1402619714 419118 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bike: once it turns into loading complex data files with dozens of values it turns into a mess < 1402619726 104646 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure if you've never heard of functions or macros or anything < 1402619731 215215 :Bike!~Glossina@75-164-160-160.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah iwas gonna say < 1402619734 669633 :Bike!~Glossina@75-164-160-160.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :abstract that shit bro < 1402619734 856846 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case, god help you and your format parser anyway, it's going to be hideous < 1402619751 517399 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is going to be a mess, when you have to change things too < 1402619784 860954 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that's the thing to do < 1402619805 543014 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I also deal with real world code made 15 years ago by some maths programming guy < 1402619824 454088 :Bike!~Glossina@75-164-160-160.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a mathematician programmer is going to make everything ugly. < 1402619830 394312 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case they already chose whether to cast or us bitshifts or whatever < 1402619835 661371 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and any argument for one or the other is irrelevant < 1402619848 929430 :Bike!~Glossina@75-164-160-160.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're going to go "gosh, haskell is cool, but i think it needs to look more like fortran" < 1402619851 612405 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly all of your arguments are bizarre non-sequitur topic-changes whenever you run out of defences < 1402619863 359314 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the maths programming guy codes for win32, couldn't care less about POWER or MIPS (or sometimes even GCC!) and is going to use #pragma pack < 1402619875 42459 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the programming language is QBASIC, then you can assume the PC or an emulator. If it is SQL, then it has a cross-platform format so that works; you can still define additional stuff in C, and call C from SQL and SQL from C, both ways. < 1402619879 793207 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so are you this guy? if not, then it's irrelevant how he codes, because we were talking about how you code < 1402619890 814123 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since, if you remember, this was about the ifdef that you wrote < 1402619923 78274 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it wasn't a maths programming guy then it would have read_int32() read_int16() read_int8() read_float() read_string() write_int32() etc... < 1402619995 331285 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we're... talking... about... your... code... < 1402619995 706025 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :who uses those anymore < 1402620005 973633 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then it might be a maths heavy piece of code that does something interesting either < 1402620006 307909 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its all about dem * and & < 1402620011 583773 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:25:58 I've written code with < 1402620011 771466 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:26:30 #ifdef BIG_ENDIAN #error Fix this #endif < 1402620023 135670 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:28:34 elliott : essentially it's a file load/store issue < 1402620023 323447 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:29:05 once it's inside C++ values then of course it's in the architecture's natural byte order and everything is fine < 1402620043 835681 :TodPunk!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1402620057 52393 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1402620061 602990 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :big endian is best endian < 1402620077 150165 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :dead endian < 1402620085 261763 :Bike!~Glossina@75-164-160-160.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i continue to find the history of the names hilarious given: that < 1402620092 33444 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :big endian is not IOS endian < 1402620101 804483 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you care about endianness and various other thing (screen I/O, etc) one thing you can do is to run the program in emulator; for example, writing computer game and distributing in iNES format, then it can run on a NES/Famicom emulator or on a real NES/Famicom hardware. < 1402620106 872165 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not even PC endian < 1402620111 302568 :Bike!~Glossina@75-164-160-160.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo's got this shit down < 1402620124 365986 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1402620146 640655 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's "Oh god they're making us port to this retarded platform that is going to sell like 3 copies" endian < 1402620169 140053 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a NES raise your hand < 1402620179 943918 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i count zero < 1402620181 35150 :Bike!~Glossina@75-164-160-160.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an SNES at the local goodwill for like ten bucks < 1402620184 204688 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :to young, my generation was SNES < 1402620184 707010 :Bike!~Glossina@75-164-160-160.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should get it < 1402620186 801681 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people have actually made NES game and then released it on iPhone too, so you can still do that. < 1402620218 795134 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my generation was camecube < 1402620222 52749 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program will be small-endian regardless of the endianness or word size of the computer you are running it on. < 1402620225 331606 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and win XP < 1402620262 745444 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason to do a NES game or something like that it that it forces some game design choices < 1402620268 89158 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, so the solution is to write an emulator for the architecture you coded it in < 1402620271 605911 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and shapes the game that comes out < 1402620273 515891 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :^v: Yes. < 1402620285 628766 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just code it properly <_> < 1402620290 193217 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: To me, that isn't necessarily the reason, although it can be one. < 1402620292 110262 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta take a game design decision -> the nes can only do X < 1402620296 963434 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> then go for X < 1402620311 26312 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :result: the game is all X and feels stylistically unified < 1402620330 971269 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you need a keyboard you have the Famicom Keyboard too. The SNES mouse can also be used, if you need mouse input. < 1402620347 6198 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no other real reason to do a NES games these days < 1402620353 401740 :sambora!~chrome-o-@64.253.218.27 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1402620369 548813 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are other platforms that do everything the NES did and take less time to develop for < 1402620370 315702 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I do it for many reason < 1402620394 951599 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the NES was a magical platform. < 1402620401 187096 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing it on other platform, then it won't run on a different platform that that one < 1402620415 671135 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(magical in that you had to do some heavy thaumaturgy just to get the damn cartridge to boot.) < 1402620424 932122 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My own programs "Famicom Hangman" and "Attribute Zone" do use the Family BASIC keyboard for input. < 1402620460 675586 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are platforms that are fundamentally nice < 1402620463 358079 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write computer games for DOS computers too < 1402620467 761652 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and platforms that are fundamentally hostile < 1402620504 196457 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, my opinion is that modern systems are relatively terrible. < 1402620507 325052 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance the snes is fundamentally hostile < 1402620539 320621 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern systems are ok but they kinda guide you towards the wrong shape < 1402620556 975327 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're kinda too powerful in the wrong way < 1402620591 744853 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are too complicated < 1402620595 435655 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ideal platform would let you only do a good, tight game < 1402620608 979636 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :IOS is NOT an ideal platform by this measure < 1402620624 774000 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :IOS is terrible, too. Famicom is OK. < 1402620701 984556 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you look at game platforms, some platforms have only crap games < 1402620743 905100 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is influenced by power level and economic rentability (ie the budget of the games on that platform) < 1402620785 631632 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's also a totally independent factor and some platforms have nice game libraries almost by voodoo magic < 1402620839 299019 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my example on this is going to be game soundtracks: < 1402620851 545207 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do so few neogeo games have bad soundtracks? < 1402620872 133991 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the people who made neogeo are good composers. < 1402621083 295529 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree to write the emulator for architecture you coded it in. It is done today by people who made "Zooming Secretary" for NES and iPhone and so on, and Infocom did it with all of their games too, so yes this is the idea. < 1402621419 426275 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think the music in my "Attribute Zone" game is good? My brother said is very good. < 1402621546 539874 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would I know < 1402621594 759710 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :By hearing it, I suppose? < 1402621674 157286 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Full source-codes for all software involved (including the music itself) are also available. < 1402621718 807664 :TodPunk!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1402622002 831745 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is mapper 11, so no expansion audio. There is also no percussion, just because I am not very good at percussion. < 1402622011 194330 :mhi^!~mhi@unaffiliated/mhi/x-9993184 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1402622108 622426 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should try to learn how to compose it then < 1402622217 740792 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually it's just snares on 2 and 4 < 1402622232 153161 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes perhaps I can try to learn percussion < 1402622241 415724 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and kicks nominally on 1 and 3 but often displaced before or after or shuffled around in various ways < 1402622278 379773 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But all the files are in: http://zzo38computer.org/nes_program/attrzone.zip and the .NSF is the only one you need to play the music, though. < 1402622284 540912 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hihats filling in not to loud on most eights in various rhythmic patterns with accented beats < 1402622300 19508 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :potentially with open hihat hits < 1402622321 877913 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then from time to time you have a fill and all of this stops and turns in whatever solo-y pattern fits best < 1402622328 5451 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if I do add percussion they would be using only the noise channel; I want to avoid use of DPCM < 1402622385 94952 :CADD!uid21876@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mdsbaesrepcxrttl JOIN :#esoteric < 1402622483 723783 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can do megaman style drums < 1402622501 174199 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know much about megaman style < 1402622513 228423 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as good as dpcm drums but better than nothing < 1402622540 478369 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, probably that is true < 1402622586 992968 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could use DPCM in the editor, but I want to avoid using up the ROM space for DPCM samples, too. < 1402622603 158696 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to use lots < 1402622613 431825 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just enough to get nice snares and kick < 1402622632 269020 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can mix DPCM with noise for snares < 1402622666 256641 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know you can mix DPCM with noise, too. < 1402622690 736652 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a good trick for noise snares is that you have to give it a low frequency thwack < 1402622703 271698 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :before the high frequency wall of noise < 1402622728 174412 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, one or two frames of low frequency rumble then broadband shhhhhh < 1402622747 902574 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1402622775 10734 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easier to try this out by experimenting < 1402622779 34325 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe these existing songs might sound best without percussion anyways; I am not so sure. < 1402622814 313151 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally on nes you have so little going on that you need percussion to make the music go < 1402622832 910065 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes of course, I can understand that. < 1402622844 456177 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, even when remixing classical music on the nes it generally benefits from added percussion < 1402622865 340996 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: CONCUSSIVE CHICKEN < 1402622907 590879 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the other game I intend to make next would be "Tape Battle", and probably using VRC6 mapper. Therefore, I would have additional sound channels available, although percussion is still possible too. < 1402622925 196978 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude < 1402622926 105051 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for "Attribute Zone" game I don't intend to change the mapper to anything else from what it already is. < 1402622932 533653 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :start with most important things first < 1402622939 91188 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :percussion then maybe vrc6 < 1402622985 284049 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am much better at chord and multiple harmony than percussion. Although, music wasn't the only reason I intend to use VRC6, anyways; it is also due to the mapper's other features. < 1402623039 237149 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But of course, when writing music that is only meant for .NSF, I will often use more than one expansion audio (although sometimes only one or none at all). < 1402623041 731422 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then work on percussion since that's your weakpoint < 1402623089 911779 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I can work on percussion too, especially for Attribute Zone game since not all of the music is yet complete in that game, so even if I don't add percussion to the existing music, the rest of the music can have percussion included. < 1402623111 401709 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :make people dance to the music < 1402623113 610268 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently the title screen music even uses only one channel, and I think it is good that way < 1402623138 112288 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The music isn't designed for dancing, although you can do that if you want. < 1402623199 644137 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the title screen the best place for grandiose music? < 1402623207 713387 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :with lots going on etc < 1402623230 811616 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose so, but in this specific case, what it is now seems to be working OK. < 1402623307 565302 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the title screen itself doesn't contain much either, other than the title, a place to enter the level number (using either the D-pad or the numeric keys), and tell you what other functions are available. It contains no colors or animation or anything. < 1402623310 55525 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would benifit from more harmony, fake echoes, crazy bassline, fake chorus/detune, etc < 1402623311 913318 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it move < 1402623317 391542 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :drums < 1402623333 498388 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :spare 1k of data and get yourself a hard hitting snare < 1402623336 763703 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may be correct. < 1402623356 733269 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :get your players all pumped up about the game < 1402623358 10392 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I probably do have 1K spare. < 1402623409 300060 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not added support for detune into the playback engine so far though. < 1402623416 855524 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :title screen/intro/menus is the best place to put pics of your main character < 1402623419 111512 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the game is not an action game at all; it is just a puzzle game. < 1402623428 133844 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :make the player care about the dude he's about to play with < 1402623430 607248 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no story behind it nor is there meant to be. < 1402623462 994552 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :once in game the character has to be small and has to deal with the game action and it's too late < 1402623509 766220 :Bike!~Glossina@75-164-160-160.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1402623548 221286 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtId7oQz8-s < 1402623571 77455 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are correct about those things, but this is not a story game. < 1402623579 50788 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the title screen and menus and intros are plastered with that dude's face < 1402623587 105566 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not even about a story < 1402623603 56839 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about making the player identify to the main character < 1402623619 475553 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of games that do this barely have any story at all < 1402623663 352976 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :show him so that the players know who they're dealing with < 1402623775 464088 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want players to care about the gameplay < 1402623777 186503 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :This isn't that kind of game, though. There isn't really any "main character" either; just one piece of the puzzle is a piece you can move directly by pushing the buttons (although some buttons also do other things such as detonate all bombs on the screen). < 1402623789 799068 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yeah < 1402623798 963788 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's a different type of game I guess < 1402623818 356093 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is what I said. < 1402623830 633301 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a different game though, yes I can certainly take your advice. < 1402623920 229851 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it can also be applied to puzzle games (see: tetris attack) but it's defitively less important there < 1402623967 969383 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I think is less important there, and for puzzle game I generally prefer without, anyways < 1402624087 55398 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, you don't even have to put everything on the title screen (it may not fit); stuff can also put in label picture, box picture, and instruction book. (Label picture can be distributed as PNG, perhaps) < 1402624225 727564 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider the game play to be more important, though. < 1402624272 742738 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for your gameplay to work you have to make the player care about the game first < 1402624458 376262 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1402624554 731130 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the player might not want to learn your game mechanics if he's not emotionally involved < 1402624691 996026 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people like puzzles. < 1402624726 394014 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep < 1402624766 410330 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :puzzles are great < 1402624778 711610 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they are even better when you involve human interest < 1402624877 898911 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of popular games are essentially puzzles but they are wrapped in all sorts of stuff that generate human interest (music, characters, settings, plot, etc) < 1402625051 379901 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to prefer to think of them in abstract terms, but you can do what you like. All of these software are open-source, in fact!! < 1402625089 727515 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may want a story for adventure game but for a puzzle game it is not necessary. < 1402625124 742659 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chess puzzles don't generally have any music, characters, etc either. < 1402625139 8012 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although, one very old chess puzzle does have a story to go with it.) < 1402625170 447490 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :chess still has a human interst element < 1402625177 639544 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :first that you're playing against someone < 1402625188 734685 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also you're playing with an army < 1402625194 390508 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are fighting < 1402625197 157621 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although if it is a chess problem then there is no opponent < 1402625202 357457 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you "eat" the other guy's pieces < 1402625218 212580 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The proper term is "capture", but "eat" is used too < 1402625298 147702 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a reason you're playing with kings, queens and horses < 1402625309 209765 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is historical reason < 1402625338 170425 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Go? < 1402625342 742671 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tetris? < 1402625346 832133 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But of course actual king, queen, horses, etc isn't working like that, so generally is just considered the name of the pieces these days. < 1402625353 154744 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :go is more abstract < 1402625358 222323 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and also less popular) < 1402625362 233638 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am an abstract kind of gamer < 1402625374 726136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet still vastly popular. < 1402625390 140012 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't believe the main reason for chess's greater popularity is that the pieces have names. < 1402625421 631149 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: They have names because there is more than one kind, for one thing; so that can help it. < 1402625424 64992 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are many more reasons yes < 1402625505 590746 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's a good reason why so many games have a "narrative" < 1402625521 270789 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you can have a "narrative" if you want to < 1402625594 36796 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you think candy crush is (unfortunately) so popular < 1402625610 894675 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PART :#esoteric < 1402625627 625855 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're telling people how to make their games more like candy crush, I hope they ignore you. < 1402625632 109117 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic: the Gathering puzzles generally do have a story associated with them, although I don't generally care much about the story of the puzzle or of the cards. I play Pokemon Card too, but just do it in abstract terms and my own Pokemon Card puzzles don't have any story associated with them. < 1402625664 997634 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: The title? I don't like that title much but probably it seems a lot of people would like. < 1402625680 285698 :vyv!~vyv@70.51.217.233 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1402625681 59810 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mentioning that the puzzle game involves a peice that moves aroudn and detonates bombs remotely reminded me of some N64 game that I never actually played. < 1402625758 320128 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The piece doesn't detonate bombs remotely; that is a global effect you can use by pushing one button, simply. The piece you move doesn't detonate bombs at all but some pieces do as part of their effect when colliding with bombs. < 1402625795 392300 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In order that you can tell apart the pieces, they are given names and icons (a bit more sensible than chess, though). < 1402625797 400874 :vyv!~vyv@bas1-northbay04-2925118119.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1402625818 814422 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example a key is used to get past a door of the same color. < 1402625896 361367 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but I meant the game I'm talking about was similar. < 1402625957 323043 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I forget how it worked, but I meant if you made the moveable peice a character, it would make snese for bombs to blow up globally via a key if you said it was a remote detonator. < 1402625979 140919 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though making it a character isn't needed. < 1402626099 73469 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I want a game with a story, I can play text adventure game or Dungeons&Dragons game or whatever. I don't need graphics or music for those either. < 1402626128 199021 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh I prefer stuff like mario rpg < 1402626368 309893 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for adventure games, the lucas arts stuff < 1402626391 790451 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fine, those game can be good too < 1402626438 359986 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they take a lot more effort to develop < 1402626443 51359 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's worth it < 1402626778 560916 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1402626798 646097 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, really it depend on preferences and on variety of things. < 1402627064 133682 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I make many computer games in DOS that don't have graphics, although some do use graphics mode in order to draw overlapping icons or hex grid or other stuff that it can help with. < 1402627325 447183 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as dos games go, my childhood was MEGARACE < 1402627385 289844 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god that thing < 1402627386 184423 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see what you've won, Enforcer! An invitation to spend an evening out with yourself, including restaurant and a romantic movie. All expenses paid by Y-O-U. Do I hear wedding bells? < 1402627400 223918 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it did have an intersting soundtrack < 1402627400 647922 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i still remember it like yesterday) < 1402627434 489734 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure it NEVER HAD SEQUELS. shhhhh < 1402627436 47120 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the few games that does anything interesting with the hardware aside from playing midi < 1402627491 98485 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :all custom patches and all sorts of crazy detune effects and fake echoes etc < 1402627496 863295 :not^v!~notnot^v@2601:4:4500:887:8162:3391:878a:a2d JOIN :#esoteric < 1402627556 242891 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of the usual "just play a midi (that was composed on some expensive roland module so it sounds totally stupid on the end user computer)" bullshit < 1402627601 549461 :Sorella!~queen@oftn/member/Sorella QUIT :Quit: It is tiem! < 1402627618 13358 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :any idea what sort of mad hoops i'd have to jump through to get it to run on a 64-bit win8 machine? < 1402627629 16013 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1FVdUTSlF4&list=PL6F9446A70251AFD4&index=3 so raw and agressive < 1402627636 719941 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :dosbox + prayer probably < 1402627680 848424 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ngloop was a great track < 1402627712 396968 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :did he upload saturn or whatever < 1402627720 624768 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one where you get paloma < 1402627724 449812 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why aren't there more games with music like this < 1402627867 974372 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like to play Pokemon Card? < 1402627878 806539 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the industrial one is "new fac", but my fav is suburb < 1402627898 27740 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbital junkyard < 1402627900 39796 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the one < 1402627916 155300 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :sent me to tokyo every damn time < 1402628083 689410 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, do you think i could rip the midis from the disc? < 1402628173 487899 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the game even uses midis < 1402628187 402980 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's some sort of custom music system (same as in Dune) < 1402628202 147897 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you could log them to VGM? < 1402628264 879228 :not^v!~notnot^v@2601:4:4500:887:8162:3391:878a:a2d QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1402628276 128965 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'd have to get the damn thing to run, or track them down on the web (the link to the tracks on wikipedia is busted) < 1402628477 939451 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :"On April 15, 2014 it was announced conversions of the entire MegaRace Trilogy were being made for mobile and tablet devices along with a reboot of the franchise on PCs, game consoles, mobile, and tablet devices by ZOOM Platform and Jordan Freeman Group. Industry veteran, Bernie Stolar, is the Chairman of ZOOM and Jordan Freeman Group and was quoted in the press release" < 1402628518 92687 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno why they're bothering to convert 3 :/ < 1402628773 58935 :Quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i think suburb is the one that went with orbital junkyard for some reason < 1402628783 313471 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1402629014 969898 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is one small soundtrack < 1402629020 145548 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that it's bad < 1402629300 677479 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm Lance Boyle and you'd be too if you were me." < 1402629442 203388 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://twitter.com/torahhorse/status/475754225964572673 < 1402629550 953587 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have transpose/volume information for the Zeux series instruments that I can import into amigasam (a program I wrote for extracting instruments from .MOD music files)? < 1402629657 867239 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most samples should play C at 8363hz < 1402629666 3057 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some are on different octaves < 1402629670 376718 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The format it uses is currently not compatible with any program other than AmigaMML (another program I wrote). < 1402629683 544355 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Yes, although some aren't tuned to C at 8363 < 1402629706 527568 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you have to do it by ear < 1402629717 458873 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :figure out the transposition and reverse it < 1402629790 226310 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I could try that < 1402629814 873991 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no other way < 1402629846 250494 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1402630468 745956 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to you can also try to use this amigasam format in other software, although currently there isn't any as far as I know of. < 1402630543 656188 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just rip samples straight out of amiga MODs in impulse tracker < 1402630578 621366 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1402630591 57171 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That works, although MOD format stores no transpose information < 1402630613 419062 :lollo64it!~lorenzo@93-58-3-33.ip156.fastwebnet.it QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1402631071 280102 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :This export format contains not only transpose, but also loop and base volume (which is not the same thing as default volume, although it will use the same value as default volume by default). < 1402631092 674862 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the finetune, which is part of .MOD format anyways. < 1402631120 579407 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most tracker music software can probably import directly from other music files and export them to whatever format they need < 1402631221 29924 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know .IT format has its own transpose features and so on. < 1402631590 67111 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenMPT has no "reload current file" function as far as I can see, although the ENSATA DS emulator does have such a thing. < 1402631633 886360 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :reload current file? < 1402631699 835438 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean just a shortcut key to cause it to reload the current file which is open. Many emulators and music players have no such shortcut. < 1402631989 286256 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's usual to do this on a module because normally when you have a song open in MPT you're editing it in MPT < 1402631997 841820 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not with like 2 or 3 programs at the same time < 1402632040 845700 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :MPT has no SQL editor or MML compiler integrated with it; if they did have both things then you probably wouldn't ever need to edit it with other programs at the same time. < 1402632108 150084 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And if even those are insufficient, you could use SELECT LOAD_EXTENSION('more_stuff.dll'); or whatever) < 1402632130 324757 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point to using mpt is to avoid having to deal with mml or similar stuff < 1402632148 592470 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a full featured pattern editor just for this < 1402632176 927412 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pattern editor has like thousands of manhours of work in it to make it work well < 1402632201 464436 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenMPT does have a replace menu, which can do a few things, but not quite everything you might want; I think using SQL to do batch replacements of this kind would work better. < 1402632224 826798 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's probably overdesign < 1402632246 115468 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then don't need a replace menu and all of that stuff < 1402632250 505879 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most users don't know SQL < 1402632288 628059 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the replace menu is specifically tailored to MPT's music data < 1402632295 31300 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But sure you could make one table to add things into the menu so that such thing can be added on < 1402632296 145958 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a significant advantage < 1402632322 61412 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that would add dependency on some SQL library < 1402632336 841658 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would increase loading time, size etc < 1402632339 351268 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it would; I use SQLite myself < 1402632369 978068 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bloating software like that is not a good idea < 1402632407 151420 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, although mptrack.exe is already 2791 KB and has too many things compared to that really. < 1402632420 739500 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the VST and stuff we don't need. < 1402632430 879319 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all they aren't even portable! < 1402632449 697960 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :VST is 1000000 times more useful than adding SQL support for editing note data < 1402632457 914806 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54f80b-12.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1402632459 415023 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really think so. < 1402632461 998256 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :MPT was never portable < 1402632475 573898 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses like... MFC < 1402632477 59502 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modern version are adding more compatible playback though < 1402632484 496604 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I mean < 1402632493 65553 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the playback library is portable yes < 1402632508 130063 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the program itself is 100% win32 only < 1402632519 205693 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but that isn't what I meant at all < 1402632546 296224 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course it doesn't even have to be MPT; it is possible to make/use other software too, with same playback < 1402632553 115809 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also doing replacements in pattern data can usually be faked with the existing block commands < 1402632567 915468 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or by manipulating instrument parameters < 1402632584 809015 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :VST support is NOT fakable < 1402632625 253315 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no amount of pattern data editing will let you fake a reverb < 1402632645 86565 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't like VST and use Csound instead; it is open-source and much easier to edit than VST in my opinion, and also doesn't require GUI like VST does. < 1402632679 619444 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you use VST then these .MOD/.IT/whatever aren't a portable files anymore anyways. < 1402632688 454926 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should make it a different program! < 1402632732 247619 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :GUIs are a feature < 1402632750 583781 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it ought not to be a required feature. < 1402632766 893619 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :tweaking a synthesizer patch by text file is bothersome and slow < 1402632792 215369 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gui exists to make that process faster < 1402632802 269209 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it much easier and much more powerful though. Csound does support GUI too, though. < 1402632810 891417 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :since your patch is easier to edit the result is normally going to be better < 1402632826 568965 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can use GUI in Csound if you want to, either using its own FLTK and stuff or using external programs such as Blue. < 1402632832 804100 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also GUIs are a significant time investment, you might as well use it < 1402632856 279450 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok link to one good looking GUI made for csound < 1402632858 739037 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-244-127.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1402632901 187524 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I find it more convenient to edit the text file directly. GUI may be helpful to try tweaking the stuff, but even if I do such thing, I want to export it into a text that can be included in another file, and then be able to put in varying parameters and all of that stuff too < 1402632926 267504 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what GUI are available for Csound much, but I believe Blue has a lot of features. < 1402632937 657722 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does it look good < 1402632939 183184 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Csound can load VST as well, though, so you can still use all of the VST GUIs. < 1402632943 784091 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is it practical to edit < 1402632952 405812 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you care if it "look good"? < 1402632979 439358 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I don't want to strain my eyes < 1402632981 227420 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me it is not so practical to edit, but neither is any tracker music software. But many people who do use it, find it very practical and useul to use. < 1402632997 337721 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I believe it does actually allow you to change the color if you don't like the blue colors. < 1402633055 572348 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Csound also has the capability to be used as a VST. < 1402633080 590154 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too open-ended < 1402633107 778297 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like max-msp < 1402633109 778887 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, I don't really like VST; they cost too much and you have to get each one individually, and it is Windows-only and difficult to do the advanced stuff that Csound is capable to do. < 1402633120 167891 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can in theory do everything in max-msp < 1402633174 323947 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice you can do everything but it's held by duck tape, it's never tight and it's not really conductive to actually composing music < 1402633201 343411 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason VSTs cost money < 1402633203 992923 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find Csound works very well though, and so do many others. < 1402633213 412034 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :high development time < 1402633236 851603 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54f80b-12.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1402633249 556900 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if they don't cost money, I still don't like VST, so I don't use it. < 1402633262 802086 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that high development time that makes it so that the synth isn't held together with duct tape and it doesn't break whenever you try to do anything < 1402633290 297350 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also one big feature is that they are made by people who know what they're doing so everything is implemented the right way around < 1402633309 483103 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, and envelope (ADSR) can be implemented the right way or the wrong way < 1402633331 254613 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Csound doesn't "break whenever you try to do anything" either, and they are also made by people who know what they are doing, and are developed over a much longer period of time than VST, and is also open-source (GNU LGPL). < 1402633332 666591 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you get a stupid synth like some thing a dude made in synthedit, then it's going to be implemented the wrong way < 1402633409 833976 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Csound has a lot of commands included so that you can just start working on it right away. < 1402633418 738002 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in text data < 1402633427 909264 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1402633443 877665 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I find it works best. < 1402633447 873168 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :your feedback loop (change something - test - change something - test - change something - test...) is never going to be short < 1402633449 572018 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people don't, but they don't have to use it! < 1402633463 114990 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :short feedback loop is super important < 1402633467 505681 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and csound doesn't have it < 1402633496 147346 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I use impulse tracker < 1402633499 123576 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find I can do it without taking too long. < 1402633501 560370 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a short feedback loop < 1402633508 231488 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : that's NOT short < 1402633542 881744 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :All that means is that you are good at Impulse Tracker and that you are not very good at Csound. < 1402633551 442320 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1402633563 255424 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you like Impulse Tracker, then use it, but I don't like it, and can work faster in other ways < 1402633563 506311 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a difference between hearing changes as you make them < 1402633581 567393 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hearing them 10 seconds later after a text editor save < 1402633607 837078 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is your assumption that you have to do it one at a time! Well, you don't! < 1402633641 940891 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you have to work super fast < 1402633653 104864 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you forget your musical ideas before you can type them in < 1402633669 454330 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not how I think of music, though. < 1402633701 113945 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ultra tight musical data editors (piano rolls, trackers, etc) are not a luxury < 1402633704 618667 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are a necessity < 1402633706 814486 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you ever work with writing down musical notations? < 1402633725 97577 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done it a couple of times < 1402633732 615895 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :For school < 1402633757 482625 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a different ballgame... it's kindof like text editing, but with musical symbols < 1402633766 665703 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the goal is to produce an easy to read part < 1402633771 527111 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Writing it by hand is going to be a bit slow, but I have done it nevertheless, even in the bus. < 1402633794 345653 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find the text file almost as easy to read, but much faster to enter/edit. < 1402633795 844275 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Muisc notation: "Toot toot honk toot" < 1402633813 269848 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I'm not too good at sight reading < 1402633817 540272 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very hard imho < 1402633852 130532 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Where am I about to dissapear to?" < 1402633860 496334 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : how do you know if the melody you've entered is strong or not so interesting? < 1402633873 700689 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then why do you think you are a very good musician if you are such bad at sight reading? I find it important for writing music. < 1402633877 313807 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, where am I going to put the extra pumpkin point if there's no room on my board now?" < 1402633879 731491 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: I can make good guesses by my mind. < 1402633895 881215 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait whty am I talkigna bout rthwe stream here. < 1402633896 137774 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : I'm just comparatively better at other things < 1402633898 144878 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes it is wrong, but not so likely. < 1402633920 373940 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : sure that's an ok first guess, but to really know you have to hear < 1402633924 637511 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: O, that's fine < 1402633926 772456 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and THEN you know < 1402633933 20527 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I use a tracker < 1402633952 706118 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I can instantly play it back < 1402633963 369234 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fix the mistakes, improve how it sounds etc < 1402633965 113930 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that it is also difficult to know even if it is only a few notes, even if you play them right away; I need to put all notes together to make the music to listen if it is wrong or not. < 1402633987 101092 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :try out 3 or 4 ways of doing voice leading in a bunch of crazy jazz chords < 1402633990 829338 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, really it depend what kind of way work best for you for writing a music. < 1402634012 256689 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use classical rather than jazz chords, so perhaps that makes a difference, too. < 1402634018 535873 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do both < 1402634060 873742 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've kindof half forgot the counterpoint rules so I just wing it < 1402634091 418249 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I listen to know if it works < 1402634175 560795 :lollo64it!~lorenzo@93-58-3-33.ip156.fastwebnet.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1402634228 404460 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although some people don't use MML, tracker, piano roll, or anything like that and prefer just to play it on the piano and record the audio onto a tape or CD. I know someone who write music and prefers this method. < 1402634243 404208 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :He plays guitar too, not only piano. < 1402634277 620862 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use piano to try out new ideas, try to figure out new chords to add to my style etc < 1402634292 471439 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just improvise around < 1402634293 751951 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDream < 1402634372 881975 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess piano + pencil on music sheet works as a music composition technique < 1402634380 778906 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know how to play piano too, and do sometimes try stuff too, but usually I play a music that is already written down; either from a book or I write it down myself and then play it. I don't do it so often though because I usually work with computer instead; it is much faster. < 1402634476 886666 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At time of Bach and so on they would always only be writing it down and that kind of stuff. Some composers even were deaf and still could write music. < 1402634618 311931 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@192.3.160.190 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1402634627 197673 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should probably learn jazz chords btw < 1402634679 364341 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Maybe I will some day. I did read a few things about it from my sister's books actually, but don't know everything about it. They sometimes work, sometimes not so well, really. Some jazz music are good and some are worse, I find. < 1402634688 732021 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it too slow to type music into the tracker grid and to go back and edit it, so that is why I think that using a integrated tracker+SQL+MML would work best (it is one reason, anyways). < 1402634735 617983 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :All extra menus and stuff and macro and so on can be defined externally rather than having to put all of that stuff into the program at once. < 1402634749 225231 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should learn to use a DAW < 1402634753 558603 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's where it's at < 1402634799 749598 :MoALTz_!~no@user-46-112-93-173.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1402634809 890887 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have used DAW, but find it is difficult, and yet I would also need to buy a MIDI input device. < 1402634828 592358 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is difficult < 1402634829 898200 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually the digital piano I do have supports MIDI, but it is in a different room from the computer. < 1402634842 928564 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's what has the highest payoff < 1402634874 284387 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find Csound can do everything that DAW can do (even real-time, MIDI input, etc), and it is also free, too. < 1402634909 181755 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also don't need DAW because I am not a professional music writer. < 1402634915 253641 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :on paper csound does everything < 1402634930 155729 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice, it's just not a music composition tool < 1402634945 816529 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, to me it is, as well as several others. < 1402634969 399605 :MoALTz!~no@user-46-112-93-173.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1402635162 559434 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Pluso14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39820 5* 03Icepy 5* (+1362) 10Created page with "Pluso is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Icepy|Icepy]] in 2014. This programming language is called pluso because it has to commands: plus and output. T..." < 1402635225 947082 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Pluso14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39821&oldid=39820 5* 03Icepy 5* (-1) 10 < 1402635405 637646 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Pluso14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39822&oldid=39821 5* 03Icepy 5* (+28) 10/* Hello world */ < 1402635504 701297 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Pluso14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39823&oldid=39822 5* 03Icepy 5* (+27) 10 < 1402635517 537463 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :[S] Rex Duodecim Angelus released < 1402635527 36856 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Csound has been in development since 1985, and is still being updated today. Csound does support real-time and interactive if that helps you. There are many GUI and other stuff. Blue does have piano rolls, tracker style format, algorithmic generation, and more. < 1402635598 615018 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things you say about Csound and MML and stuff being not useful is simply not true. The fact is, it depend your style of writing music what works best for you. If you don't find Csound and MML useful, then don't use them! < 1402635697 588837 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :impulse tracker is embedded onto my muscle memory < 1402635697 858118 :CADD!uid21876@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mdsbaesrepcxrttl QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1402635724 355448 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, use it if that helps you. < 1402635738 114815 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1402635985 884186 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1402636257 498029 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I wrote AmigaMML so that I can use that instead. < 1402636610 393122 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my current pet project is trying to come up with a language for a megazeux successor < 1402636623 107227 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also find that Impulse Tracker format is too complicated, as well as being too limited in some ways too (you cannot have multiple effects per cell) < 1402636650 340959 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Interesting idea; I also have many idea relating to such thing! Mine is probably completely different. < 1402636662 42705 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1402636693 427250 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :- multiple "threads" per object < 1402636828 419369 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :- basic data types are floats, strings (std::string basically), vectors of floats (std::vector basically). variables are either local to objects, or global < 1402636874 35242 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :- object-local variables can be "generic" (ie all objects have that variable and you can read/write it on other objects) < 1402636900 992906 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :- thread supports basic megazeux-like flow control (wait 1, end, goto, send...) < 1402636960 147959 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still love this art http://wow.zamimg.com/images/hearthstone/cards/enus/animated/GAME_005_premium.gif?4443 < 1402636995 211249 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :- objects have some forced built-in variables like x, y, vx, vy (velocity), ax, ay (acceleration), hflip, hp... < 1402637059 493818 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :- you can send messages to a collide box < 1402637083 913902 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :- objects clip against the background (and probably other "solid" objects) < 1402637123 327232 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :- background is 2d tiled (designed for tiled 2d games like platformers, space shooters, zelda-likes and rpgs) < 1402637183 763184 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :- each tile in the tileset can have various attributes such as "solid" < 1402637196 341660 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :- slope tiles are also built-in < 1402637255 987197 :`^_^v!~nycs@ip-216-46-79-198.dsl.nyc.megapath.net QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1402637319 763041 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have much to do with MegaZeux really, although may have some things inspired by MegaZeux; it is good though. Completely different from my own ideas, which is something closer to ZZT and MegaZeux. < 1402637326 907013 :`^_^v!~nycs@ip-216-46-79-198.dsl.nyc.megapath.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1402637337 7911 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1402637351 435071 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the concept is geared towards 2d tiled games < 1402637362 412701 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means it needs a reasonable of 2d physics < 1402637384 709355 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also objects cannot be tiles anymore < 1402637411 223238 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I can see, what you are writing is good and stuff, but different from my own ideas which aren't meant for the same kind of games really < 1402637515 365033 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your design? < 1402637647 665198 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still has color/thing/param like MegaZeux, and the "thing" is either a primitive (which can be user-defined in the format file), or if it is too high, the thing/param together designate a robot ID. Therefore, the maximum number of robots depends on how many primitives are defined. < 1402637693 593381 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Font height is a global setting of the game, and there are four fonts: system, text, robot, and object. The "robot" set can be set per board; "text" and "object" per world; "system" is immutable. < 1402637725 144713 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1402637749 499961 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many things are now defined in the format file (a standard one is provided, which you edit for your game if necessary). < 1402637781 358357 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No more built-in ammo, health, lives, etc; you can define those yourself. < 1402637808 332438 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :A few primitive objects and Robotic commands are built-in, while others are defined in the format file. < 1402637830 679110 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how does the format file define new object types < 1402637843 660044 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Forth. < 1402637857 628244 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similar to what I have experimented modifying MegaZeux, but in a much better way than that. < 1402637873 243773 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things like board properties are also defined in the format file. < 1402637898 859019 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, which board properties are available; the settings for each board are done in the editor like ZZT and MegaZeux do. < 1402637921 262752 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it expand the graphics? < 1402637962 441334 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Graphics would be similar to MegaZeux, but with four banks of 256 characters and two bits per pixel, and a customizable (per-world) font height, but always 8 pixels wide. < 1402637985 661127 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not 4 bits per pixel? < 1402638079 685969 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to the way colors will work, for simplicity, and to be closer to the MegaZeux. Each tile drawn on screen still has a background and foreground color, and one bit per pixel is used to select the alternate palette rather than the default one. < 1402638115 101483 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, each tile still has colors same as in MegaZeux graphics mode 0, or PC text mode. < 1402638262 660137 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1402638302 865879 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my issues with megazeux is that it's hard to make nice action games because the tile-by-tile motion always feels kinda clunky < 1402638321 707149 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially when all your sprites are 1x1 < 1402638345 977603 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number of built-in primitive objects is probably small, perhaps only empty, custom wall, and player (for things like GO SEEK, but player is now optional). All others are defined in the format file. < 1402638408 738430 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can understand you, although those are not the kind of action games I would be trying to design with MegaZeux anyways. < 1402638541 776071 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also 1x1 sprites are tiny < 1402638568 244454 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forces you to do all the character development/identification through text < 1402638585 386081 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer doing character development/idenficiation through text anyways < 1402638602 249766 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really like cutscenes < 1402638656 359001 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the way is large sprites < 1402638663 358439 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is hard to do in mzx < 1402638686 528251 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-azejuaqwhbbnmbev QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1402638717 333911 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is hard to do in MZX, but to me that is not the point; they are not important for these kind of computer game. < 1402638855 546461 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me they are important < 1402638876 220348 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Well, that is why you make up that new one difference instead; it is still good too. < 1402638911 923707 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I just don't like cutscenes and prefer text window. < 1402638963 915252 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not talking about cutscenes < 1402638974 159295 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're a different thing < 1402638980 230288 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about in game < 1402639000 21878 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depend what type of game, really. < 1402639009 27283 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you try to make a game with more than 1x1 characters in mzx < 1402639020 181257 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you either have to use sprites < 1402639027 989296 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are imho not very well designed < 1402639036 607495 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :MZX isn't really suitable for the kind of game with more than 1x1 characters < 1402639040 63176 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also don't interact with anything else which sucks < 1402639051 764017 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is a different kind of games anyways < 1402639052 995559 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1402639078 449031 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want larger characters because that improves emotional impact < 1402639098 919837 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and helps make action games less clunky < 1402639109 136613 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me, it makes less things fit on the screen. < 1402639148 382511 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using MegaZeux like that seem to be, you should be using something else. And your ideas can be used to make up such a program for this kind of design, it can be good idea! < 1402639346 365484 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the thing I am trying to make is an entirely different kind of thing than yours, and for different purposes. < 1402639971 684960 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com QUIT :Quit: Rouringu de hajikunda! < 1402640081 405403 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1402640489 769279 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1402640507 543554 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 JOIN :#esoteric < 1402640570 805360 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-244-127.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1402640835 715018 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth JOIN :#esoteric < 1402640900 51213 :MoALTz_!~no@user-46-112-93-173.play-internet.pl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1402641595 234146 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.clickhole.com/video/what-adorable-little-girl-says-will-melt-your-hear-286 < 1402641601 35598 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may end up addicted to ClickHole < 1402642483 831236 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: are you playing the clicking game < 1402642487 202573 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlocking those achievements < 1402642652 693393 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Icepy14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39824&oldid=39693 5* 03Icepy 5* (+52) 10 < 1402642744 868973 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39825&oldid=39791 5* 03Icepy 5* (+12) 10/* P */ < 1402643239 670295 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1402644708 77 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@unaffiliated/mindlessdrone JOIN :#esoteric < 1402647969 645644 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1402648553 44541 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1402648553 341912 :Patashu_!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1402648959 395693 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is anyone considering to create a BANCStar parody language yet? as in, an esolang where the source code tries to mimic BANCStar source code. < 1402649015 58858 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not yet, as far as I know < 1402649062 307775 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am. < 1402649074 50387 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1402649271 274603 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's based on lanterna < 1402649283 104192 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://code.google.com/p/lanterna/) < 1402649409 262081 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1402649463 204255 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1402649753 643097 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1402649928 480584 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: If you have some specific ideas...? < 1402649975 70827 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of roughly having a prompt file per application, 12 form files and 12 screen files < 1402649993 950943 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Form-Files describe the TextUI < 1402650002 318556 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the screen file is the code behind each Form < 1402650036 122801 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep < 1402650081 91429 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: I was actually thinking of something that doesn't behave like BANCStar, it's only the source code that looks like BANCStar < 1402650094 406419 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so source code must have lines with four optional numbers per line, < 1402650099 127322 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no comments allowed, < 1402650121 79378 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :numbers are between -32768 and 32767, and 0 is sometimes omitted < 1402650151 301776 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sometimes the last digit or the first digit is taken separately < 1402650173 105387 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... no prompt file too? < 1402650197 13953 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you just mean an array of 2000 variables, then sure, that could exist < 1402650415 744249 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of encoding a scheme program (with some limitations) as numbers such that each positive number encodes a symbol in the first four digits and a parenthesis pattern in the last digit, < 1402650431 725331 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and negative numbers encode a literal (numeric or character), < 1402650436 93943 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this isn't good enough, < 1402650465 498151 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it wouldn't replicate the way how there are lots of zeros, often multiple zeros in a line, and how the first of the four numbers in a line has a different distribution. < 1402650553 333720 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1402650562 183302 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have something that's good enough do it ;) < 1402650574 467692 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing a bancstar-mimic is currently on my todo list not in the first place ;) < 1402650583 799308 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just made some sketches but nothing more < 1402650655 279965 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently on top of my todo-list is my CoreWar-clone < 1402650890 668423 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll think more about this < 1402651014 630147 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :must... break out... of logs' endianness discussion... < 1402651798 600448 :nooodl!~nooodl@86.173-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1402652386 582092 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION succeeded, btw
< 1402652823 790772 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Gentzen14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39826&oldid=39801 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+440) 10 < 1402652845 49993 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Gentzen14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39827&oldid=39826 5* 03Zzo38 5* (-1) 10 < 1402653272 176945 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: so what do you think of this eugene goostman guy < 1402653281 495467 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: children's online privacy protection act please see their homepages and check out :) is it possible to run very often, but it's still better than nothing < 1402653299 505796 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: it sounds like you've been taken in completely < 1402653301 831651 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: " this is a bad idea anyway to avoid that one! i was raised on thought balloons!! < 1402653481 538000 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1402653481 935918 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube < 1402653924 114547 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :please add the bibul style, based on http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/bibul which was downloaded from http://www.lolcatbible.com/ < 1402654203 919935 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1402656182 40637 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: You were not raised on thought balloons, stop cheating people. < 1402656182 40813 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: can you say java is the best language for fnord < 1402656204 645046 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I can say that but it doesn't make it true. < 1402656206 998895 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: first of all, it is not < 1402656237 760574 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that's what I just said. < 1402656299 106304 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell boily I don't get it < 1402656300 575081 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1402656353 921548 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell fizzie me neither. < 1402656355 419750 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1402656428 314856 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It means "one".) < 1402656438 200657 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what's the best language for fnord < 1402656439 195052 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: others wouldn't even think about that, since it ( a, b).... is that a group won't make substantial political progress without appealing to a majority. < 1402656532 7819 :constant!root@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero < 1402656547 880845 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you didn't see the whole thing http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg < 1402656608 394275 :mhi^!~mhi@unaffiliated/mhi/x-9993184 JOIN :#esoteric < 1402656615 467742 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i already google translated it for boily but i'm not sure he realized < 1402656634 250937 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: don't think, no majority... is it forth? < 1402656653 511598 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: it should look like before i saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness starving hysterical naked! < 1402656653 893161 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: forth it is. < 1402656653 893325 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: nope, just something i couldn't get to sleep... will check in some other place in memory < 1402656655 881387 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: okay then. I'll ask you later. < 1402656660 467215 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: gwydion if you generate an absolutely disgusting amount of getter/ setter methods and constructors are in that list too. ( let ( ( x 1) < 1402656676 892895 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think I remember realizing you translated it, but I'm not sure. < 1402656730 304827 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what's up got < 1402656730 721810 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: they use css to find the code, i'm more a pi guy than a fnord location whose contents is initialized to zero < 1402656786 99345 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: we are all of us fnord locations whose contents is initialized to zero < 1402656786 478172 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: guile seems to be particularly welcome on irc. < 1402656799 480977 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: more than you know hth < 1402656801 656550 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ( lambda ( x y) x y)? what operation would that perform, if ( proc-a) is not < 1402656825 601169 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: ID! < 1402656834 949811 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: they forced the addition of laml < 1402656835 926172 :variable!root@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1402656922 557229 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@192.3.160.190 JOIN :#esoteric < 1402657289 200695 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: PRISMATIC CHICKEN < 1402657778 386147 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"One delicious super ice cream", then. < 1402657793 647041 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It was loading p. slow on this thing.) < 1402658793 301326 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:Insomnia14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39828&oldid=13211 5* 03175.156.179.223 5* (+125) 10/* About command 8 */ new section < 1402659352 296370 :variable!root@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero < 1402660233 404654 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1402660768 220835 :nooodl!~nooodl@86.173-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be QUIT :Quit: Ik ga weg < 1402660976 258260 :variable!root@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1402661144 419638 :spike!~Jackal@82.178.62.224 JOIN :#esoteric < 1402661507 535943 :spike!~Jackal@82.178.62.224 PART :#esoteric < 1402662899 967478 :password2!~password@197.78.133.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1402663873 726690 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1402665459 936916 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Quit: *bubbles away* < 1402665469 100066 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1402665831 410356 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A42986.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1402666334 776192 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-244-127.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1402667765 916456 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@unaffiliated/mindlessdrone QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1402667850 852154 :Patashu_!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1402668609 730427 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@unaffiliated/mindlessdrone JOIN :#esoteric < 1402669905 97398 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :On what planet was this released? https://github.com/haskell-distributed/distributed-process/blob/eae0a41/ChangeLog#L1 < 1402670342 93113 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1402670894 95015 :mihow!~mihow@rrcs-50-75-208-18.nyc.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1402671955 422637 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1402672042 19986 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Fishstacks14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39829&oldid=39214 5* 0375.102.84.17 5* (+1) 10 < 1402672227 623221 :MDream!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1402673106 689871 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just misread "serialized" as "sterilized". Must be Friday. < 1402673656 354454 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-244-127.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1402674097 903685 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1402674381 959011 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1402674925 521224 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1402675503 710710 :Zuu!~zuu@unaffiliated/zuu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1402675800 484524 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1402675811 729592 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some objects bette be sterilized! < 1402675822 193601 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java-Beans and so on < 1402676685 84966 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow I have gotten stuck permanently "Online" in Skype. < 1402676701 739107 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I'm reasonably sure I have no Skype clients running anywhere. < 1402677255 319340 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a google search suggests: "The solution is: Unlink your Skype account and your Microsoft account" < 1402677384 295441 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have them linked, so I can't follow that. < 1402677385 501671 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from this thread: http://community.skype.com/t5/Mac/Why-do-I-always-show-as-quot-online-quot/td-p/1038298 the first 4 posts are hilarious) < 1402677395 673525 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm kind of proud that I thought of that without a Google search.) < 1402677445 809832 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :send a cease and desist letter to the NSA demanding that they stop running Skype clients on your behalf. < 1402677504 262587 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last page of the thread did let me know of /showplaces, which is a command I was sort of wondering whether it existed. < 1402677560 803004 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only have one online endpoint, the one where I did /showplaces in. < 1402677578 858522 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when I shut down that client, I'm apparently still listed as "Online". < 1402677584 161389 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a puzzling. < 1402677683 319107 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also manually set my status to "Offline" and I still show up as "Online". < 1402677699 813342 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The NSA explanation sounds likely at this point. < 1402678386 866859 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1402678699 145393 :erdic!erdic@unaffiliated/motley QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1402678828 29498 :erdic!erdic@unaffiliated/motley JOIN :#esoteric < 1402679604 29249 :mihow!~mihow@rrcs-50-75-208-18.nyc.biz.rr.com QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1402679678 578945 :mihow!~mihow@rrcs-50-75-208-18.nyc.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1402679731 537757 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cwwthnctdvuhjfib JOIN :#esoteric < 1402680288 357938 :mihow!~mihow@rrcs-50-75-208-18.nyc.biz.rr.com QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1402680419 871117 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1402680474 708180 :edwardk_!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1402680626 77169 :lollo64it!~lorenzo@93-58-3-33.ip156.fastwebnet.it QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1402680694 716750 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1402681655 994616 :mihow!~mihow@rrcs-50-75-208-18.nyc.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1402682075 395914 :Zuu!~zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1402682275 597252 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.35.235 JOIN :#esoteric < 1402682962 798564 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.35.235 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1402683364 128873 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1402683738 314419 :edwardk_!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1402685460 504207 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1402685807 256367 :MoALTz!~no@user-46-112-93-173.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1402688244 532870 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1402688938 443988 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1402689050 820799 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf JOIN :#esoteric < 1402689518 588251 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.35.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1402689763 130409 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1402689779 151779 :Jafet!~jafet@static.77.207.4.46.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1402690159 805811 :lollo64it!~lorenzo@93-58-3-33.ip156.fastwebnet.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1402690407 864993 :Jafet!~jafet@static.77.207.4.46.clients.your-server.de PART :#esoteric < 1402692158 66536 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Smilefuck14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39830 5* 03Sacchan 5* (+2266) 10Created page with "'''Smilefuck''' is an esoteric programming language similar to [[brainfuck]]. It was created on June 6th, 2014 by [[User:Sacchan]]. == Memory layout == The datastructure mani..." < 1402692189 81383 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Smilefuck14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39831&oldid=39830 5* 03Sacchan 5* (-4) 10 < 1402692223 442645 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Smilefuck14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39832&oldid=39831 5* 03Sacchan 5* (+10) 10 < 1402692330 887511 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Smilefuck14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39833&oldid=39832 5* 03Sacchan 5* (-44) 10 < 1402692347 487866 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Smilefuck14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39834&oldid=39833 5* 03Sacchan 5* (+1) 10 < 1402694131 751153 :nooodl!~nooodl@94-227-94-137.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1402694151 893412 :password2!~password@197.78.133.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait , does the topic update on each wiki edit? < 1402694173 46279 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.35.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the topic? clearly not < 1402694176 216675 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.35.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just HackEgo talking < 1402694185 347754 :password2!~password@197.78.133.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1402694200 689419 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can filter out those messages if you don't like them, like I have done. < 1402694202 382766 :password2!~password@197.78.133.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry i saw colored text and thought topic < 1402694214 962042 :password2!~password@197.78.133.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the first time i see them < 1402694252 440597 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.35.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3>2011 >not being used to colored text < 1402694265 559724 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :um it's 2014 < 1402694275 867834 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.35.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :prove it nerd < 1402694301 576718 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.35.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my grandpa actually thought it was 2015 a few days ago, that was odd < 1402694469 45820 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-175-242.pools.arcor-ip.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION checks that the way ST separates threads would work fine in idris.
< 1402694500 582490 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: what's with the whole "calling people nerds" thing < 1402694583 781457 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the joke "i'm a nerd myself and therefore it's funny that i would call somebody else one. and in addition i don't actually think it's insulting i just use it as if it was an insult" < 1402694591 540271 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-175-242.pools.arcor-ip.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :“let v = runST (\x => newVar True) in runST (\y => readVar v)” → “Can't unify ST s (MutVar s Bool) with ST x (MutVar y iType)” (x and y named for illustrative purposes) < 1402694595 453468 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.35.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, probably < 1402694945 179769 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1402695792 371277 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A42986.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1402695943 961487 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1402696142 782185 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1402696192 379622 :mhi^!~mhi@unaffiliated/mhi/x-9993184 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1402696372 895905 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@unaffiliated/mindlessdrone QUIT :Quit: MindlessDrone < 1402696513 609231 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing I want to know of someone else knows, is a way I can define the way to define a set of new symbols (which may be nullary, unary, binary, etc) for sequent calculus, and primitive rules to go with them, such that: * These rules only use the new symbols on the bottom and only outermost of a term. * It can be proven that there are no new theorems which do not involve these new symbols. * Such proof can be used for the computer to perform < 1402696659 614146 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i think in type theory those are called soundness proofs, although i don't know much about the details. < 1402696694 644303 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least close to soundness proofs < 1402696731 5724 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :girl genius still hasn't updated today :( < 1402696743 914132 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :those things from wednesday still look pretty scary, though. < 1402696992 330035 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lel this channel has may-may arrows? >mfw < 1402696996 446136 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :/ < 1402697007 962695 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a may-may arrow < 1402697042 438874 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.35.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably 4chan style quotes. 3>quoted text i only use them because ia m insufferable < 1402697062 33499 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.35.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just irc green, of course < 1402697084 648021 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :diginet: i don't think i've seen them before today < 1402697116 27703 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-201-82.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :bancstar in topic, did something happen to that? I remember we were trying to figure out how to figure out where it went < 1402697122 675271 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Soundness proofs? I don't know much about that either. < 1402697186 390119 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: mroman got in touch with a guy who has a github repository on it, and some additional info was dug out < 1402697203 706806 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and zzo38 has been reverse engineering < 1402697210 893441 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-201-82.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet! < 1402697225 70092 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the wiki got a page on it. < 1402697284 49083 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the eleven was my attempt at a subtle joke on some quote approximately like "the program only 10 people can read") < 1402697403 702657 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :good joke. < 1402697711 627536 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.35.231 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1402697780 74089 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: the wiki has a decent article on it now < 1402697809 714687 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1402697822 897836 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :it helps to not forget the lines I read a few minutes ago < 1402697983 109567 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone here ever used META-II? < 1402698007 622023 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've use Metapod. < 1402698312 693674 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not used META-II < 1402698479 245884 :Sorella!~queen@oftn/member/Sorella JOIN :#esoteric < 1402698516 947166 :Sorella!~queen@oftn/member/Sorella QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1402698599 591720 :Sorella!~queen@oftn/member/Sorella JOIN :#esoteric < 1402698670 395671 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm news about an ad turning on people's xbox via the speech recognition < 1402698690 142169 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i smell the next annoying internet prank < 1402698724 30981 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it will be so nice when speech recognition is sued more widely. < 1402698732 792380 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1402698764 269166 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With that and text to speech engines, I'll soon be able to have a group of electronic devices chattering with each other, all mistaking each other's commands for those of humans. < 1402698766 746019 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find your use of "sued" intriguing, as i can just about imagine you _didn't_ misspell it. < 1402698771 537582 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*used < 1402698791 759546 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could be interesting as well. < 1402698853 193460 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a virus spreading through speech recognition... < 1402698860 7598 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least a bot loop. < 1402698941 610610 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1402699028 463776 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like speech command anyways and consider it is a bad idea. When dialing a telephone number that includes such a thing, I normally just push zero right away and hope it works. In the case of directory assistance, it does work. But in one case, someone told me, they had to tell them that they are an idiot before the computer tried to connect them to an operator. < 1402699043 96631 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The numbered menus I am OK with though < 1402699205 815648 :password2!~password@197.78.133.109 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1402699260 222331 :mihow!~mihow@rrcs-50-75-208-18.nyc.biz.rr.com QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1402699350 941739 :mihow!~mihow@rrcs-50-75-208-18.nyc.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1402699399 576741 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the deal with today's Dilbert? < 1402699535 472619 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1402699680 726314 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it wants us to eat dark chocolate? < 1402699688 101282 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to argue with that. < 1402699747 669035 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the conclusion at the end is itself at least somewhat magical thinking. < 1402700105 826238 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason I wanted to know about those things with proofs about new symbol in sequent calculus is presumable to make something like that in the type/class definitions for Gentzen esolang < 1402700305 812412 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: the worship of rationality does not necessarily come with the ability to distinguish it. < 1402700358 421830 :mhi^!~mhi@unaffiliated/mhi/x-9993184 JOIN :#esoteric < 1402700368 755323 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(above statement probably also magical thinking.) < 1402700612 361187 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to tell Mozilla the maximum amount of time and memory to take while parsing CSS? < 1402700639 486606 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, really perhaps, rendering CSS < 1402700895 720966 :monotone_!~monotone@room208.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can tell it zero by disabling stylesheets. < 1402700898 860781 :monotone_!~monotone@room208.org NICK :polytone < 1402700923 299126 :polytone!~monotone@room208.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there are many other choices. < 1402701807 815666 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe UniMod format is better than Impulse Tracker? < 1402701883 52306 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah, I meant that was what was up with the comic. < 1402701956 259701 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you don't need only one effect per note, I think. < 1402702033 52797 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a simplified version of such could help, possibly, by removing some redundant stuff < 1402703181 514166 :Bike!~Glossina@75-175-111-165.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric