00:01:08 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:03:25 [wiki] [[TOD]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39800&oldid=39720 * Null * (-2) 00:09:04 -!- Bike has joined. 00:14:07 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 00:20:35 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: switchin). 00:30:48 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 00:37:36 -!- not^v has joined. 00:41:55 -!- not^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:42:29 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:42:45 -!- not^v has joined. 00:42:47 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:44:07 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 00:52:42 @ping 00:52:43 pong 00:52:45 Odd 00:54:44 -!- metasepia has joined. 00:54:45 ~ping 00:54:45 Pong! 00:54:49 I can't even. 00:56:58 http and https don't seem to be working 00:57:23 the protocol itself, or you can't resolve? 00:57:49 Well, just chrome can't connect 01:00:33 kill chrome, gently power-toggle your router, stare at your modem, and launch firefox. 01:00:59 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:01:16 -!- Frooxius has joined. 01:04:36 meanwhile, finns are weird → http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg 01:05:11 Oo 01:06:03 YKSI! 01:06:26 (now, where is our resident finn when we need him?) 01:08:23 @tell fizzie YKSI! YKSI! YKSI! 01:08:23 Consider it noted. 01:14:06 boily, I slightly have no control of my router 01:14:15 I don't even know where it is 01:15:05 I suppose you don't have a small EMP device with you? 01:15:39 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep). 01:22:37 the Mystery of the Possession of Magnetical Pulsing Machines shall be Resolved in the Next Episode. it is time to understand my mattress. 01:22:46 -!- boily has quit (Quit: DIVERGENT CHICKEN). 01:26:10 -!- Danielaaac has joined. 01:27:11 -!- conehead has joined. 01:30:02 hooola 01:30:20 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:30:20 Danielaaac: are you a bot 01:30:42 like you can't seriously be one person so interested in this channel over many many months?? 01:31:28 oh hey... 01:31:36 maybe all these "canaima"s are users of http://canaima.softwarelibre.gob.ve/ 01:31:46 and not one person 01:32:40 -!- Danielaaac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:33:01 -!- Danielaaac has joined. 01:34:48 español? 01:35:32 `? welcome.es 01:35:32 ​¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.) 01:36:32 muchaaaas gracias jijijijijij 01:36:38 -!- Danielaaac has left. 01:37:11 Danielaaac: ^ 01:51:35 jijijijijij 02:01:16 -!- MoALTz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:01:49 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 02:02:03 -!- MoALTz has joined. 02:03:55 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:05:55 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 02:18:25 -!- not^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/Akc6r.gif). 02:18:40 -!- edwardk has joined. 02:20:08 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:22:39 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 02:45:39 -!- tertu has joined. 03:40:43 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 03:44:26 -!- Ghoul_ has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:47:17 Do you know if ecliptic coordinates are fixed yet in Wolfram|Alpha? 04:37:09 http://www.fang.ece.ufl.edu/reject.html this can't be real, can it 04:37:49 it's satire 04:38:04 ok good 04:38:28 (pretty sure) 04:38:36 yes, it's satire 04:39:00 http://th.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/People/Lucks/reject.pdf 04:39:07 The author mentions computing machines, such as the recent ENIAC. Well, I guess one could connect such machines, but a recent IBM memo stated that a dozen or so such machines will be sufficient for all the computing that we'll ever need in the foreseeable future, so there won't be a whole lot of connecting going on with only a dozen ENIACs! 04:39:12 pretty obvious 04:39:33 i was mostly thinking nobody would be dumb enough to think you need gotos for an if with multiple statements 04:39:39 and it just got more obvious as i went down 04:40:04 but, i've never receieved a letter about a paper, and actual papers can be really fucking bizarre, so who's to know 04:46:09 I don't know what the C.A.R. Hoare thing relates to 04:48:13 hoare calculus i assume 04:48:58 so glad i never actually hard to learn it 04:53:33 "It is always good practice to name your behavior with an alias that is the same as the callback module it is implemented in." 04:53:37 http://aosabook.org/en/riak.html 04:53:48 I'm confused. Doesn't that make the server effectively a global variable? 04:54:15 Oh, no 04:54:22 "registering the process with the same name as the callback module," 04:54:27 It doesn't say to always do that 04:54:51 But I still don't get how registered gen_server processes are any different from global mutable variables 04:57:12 Is this sensible? Can you draw it in diagramatic notation? outtext : () / ($1(iosys), $2(string) |- $3(++)); outtext = [io,s,z] cut true [t] fold s t z [ch,_,k] outbyte io ch k; 04:58:36 "Note that validating the data sent to the server should occur on the client side. If the client sends incorrect information, the server should terminate." 04:58:59 I know it's Erlang with crash early and the client itself is more trusted. But still, those are not words I expect to read 04:59:25 i can't draw 05:00:02 crash early crash often 05:00:47 Someone once told me about a program that never crash because it did everything it needed to do in the time it took for the watchdog timer to run out, and then it just restarted automatically. 05:14:09 How can you add a new symbol to a logic together with a proof such that, assuming the system is consistent, that adding this symbol and the rules to go with it will not admit any new theorems which do not involve this symbol? 05:16:33 Furthermore, how can you make this proof to do stuff like a computer program does? 05:21:32 -!- Ghoul_ has joined. 05:27:05 hm, what would a counterexample be? you could add a new reduction rule that reduces an expression of original symbols that wasn't reduced originally to something involving the new symbol 05:27:49 on the other hand, you can't just ban all rules that do that, because then another rule might take it back to original symbols... except that reduction still wouldn't be in the original 05:43:51 I do not quite understand you. 05:49:43 thinking more i don't think it's relevant to what you actually meant, souree 05:55:05 Perhaps that is why I do not understand. 05:57:36 my mind's stuck in orgo, i'm thinking of shit like alkoxymercurationdemercuration where you throw some weird bullshit like merc(ii) acetate at a hydrocarbon but just get an ether out 05:59:50 [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39801&oldid=39707 * Zzo38 * (+140) 06:00:36 so, like, you're adding a reduction scheme that uses a novel intermediate but can still start and end with CHO 06:08:38 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:32:50 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:42:09 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:59:29 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: Sleeping). 07:14:50 redaction scheme? 07:55:12 Aaaaaah 07:55:26 The grand final for a programming competition my university has ran is today! 07:57:25 `bad PR 07:57:28 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bad: not found 07:57:29 `quote bad PR 07:57:30 193) Getting bad programmers to like something is a failure. 07:57:37 `quote e bad PR 07:57:38 No output. 08:02:18 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:03:59 -!- augur has joined. 08:24:08 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:24:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:26:31 http://oeis.org/search?q=1%2C3%2C11%2C42%2C163 08:29:57 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 08:29:58 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 08:32:29 -!- Jafet has joined. 08:33:17 -!- Jafet has left. 08:34:20 -!- Jafet has joined. 08:36:38 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:37:24 [wiki] [[Talk:Th]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39802 * T.J.S.1 * (+2566) Suggested additions for turing-completeness. 08:37:28 Binary Metal http://youtu.be/dYBZMRWcEBk 08:38:43 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:47:06 `unidecode r� 08:47:06 ​[U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER] 08:47:55 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep). 08:48:10 Helloerjan 08:48:28 haneb 08:48:49 Do you know whether Lisp's list comprehensions are turing complete? 08:49:00 i do not know lisp's list comprehensions. 08:49:10 "Lisp's list comprehensions"? 08:49:39 A friend has suggested they may be turing complete 08:49:40 do you mean python's or haskell's list comprehensions? 08:49:44 But I do not know them at all 08:49:50 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 08:49:50 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 08:49:58 b_jonas, no, specifically Lisp's 08:50:40 unless they contain some unusual feature my hunch is no. 08:51:04 ordinary list comprehensions is a very primitive recursive thing, i think. 08:51:25 which lisp? let me check cltl 08:52:05 what are they called? 08:52:50 I am afraid I do not know 08:53:02 qlkzy, prod 08:53:03 BET YOUR FRIEND MADE IT UP HTH 08:53:21 cltl doesn't seem to mention "comprehension" 08:54:11 Taneb: did you know that "prod" isn't very googleable hth 08:54:28 I was prodding qlkzy 08:54:34 He is the friend in question 08:54:58 * oerjan ogles qlkzy suspiciously 08:59:46 zzo38: haskell started out with "monad comprehensions", [...] <-- no, list comprehensions came first, before monads were on the table. then there was an intermediate stage. 08:59:59 @tell int-e zzo38: haskell started out with "monad comprehensions", [...] <-- no, list comprehensions came first, before monads were on the table. then there was an intermediate stage. 09:00:00 Consider it noted. 09:01:22 "Burstall and Darlington's work with NPL influenced many functional programming languages during the 1980s, but not all included list comprehensions. An exception was the influential pure lazy functional programming language Miranda, which was released in 1985. The subsequently developed standard pure lazy functional language Haskell includes many of Miranda's features, including list comprehensions." 09:01:47 what the hell is monad comprehension 09:02:58 myname: you know how list comprehensions in haskell are equivalent in sugariness to the do-notation for the list monad? just do that transformation backwards for an arbitrary monad. 09:03:18 okay! 09:03:40 [ e1 | x <- e2, y <- e3 ] = do x <- e2; y <- e3; return e1 09:04:26 -!- Ghoul_ has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:05:08 enabled in ghc with {-# LANGUAGE MonadComprehensions #-} 09:07:40 there are also some linq-/sql-like additions for lists, which iirc have been extended to use monadic classes as well 09:09:03 > [ x+y | x <- Just 2, y <- Just 3 ] 09:09:04 Couldn't match expected type ‘[t]’ 09:09:05 with actual type ‘Data.Maybe.Maybe a0’Couldn't match expected ty... 09:09:05 with actual type ‘Data.Maybe.Maybe a1’ 09:09:05 Relevant bindings include x :: t (bound at :1:9) 09:09:10 bah not enabled 09:10:21 oh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_comprehension#Common_Lisp looks relevant 09:11:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:15:50 [wiki] [[NybbleScrambler]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39803 * Javamannen * (+1887) This is an idea for a very simple single-instruction (OISC) CPU. 09:17:07 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:18:18 -!- Patashu has joined. 09:28:50 ais523: also, you kept mentioning cyclic tag systems, and how either two stacks or a single queue is enough for turing-completeness. 09:29:18 b_jonas: yeah, although it's not quite that simpel 09:29:21 *simple 09:29:24 and now I've read a book which explains this about complexity theory (in a somewhat more precise way) 09:29:32 and I think I understand it better now, 09:29:41 you can invent a language with all sorts of memory access, but it's no good if it, say, doesn't have loops, or doesn't have a way to read the memory 09:29:42 further, it also explained something I didn't understand: 09:29:57 it's just in my "heuristics for guessing whether a language is probably Turing-complete" 09:30:00 @tell boily meanwhile, finns are weird → http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg <-- one super-delicious ice cream hth 09:30:01 Consider it noted. 09:30:11 it tells why the Post correspondence problem is undecidable. 09:30:22 b_jonas, Fueue is a fun language that is turing-complete with just a queue 09:30:53 the reason is that the Post correspondance problem is just a machine with a single queue, except that it has only one state so the step can only depend on the unqueued elements, and it's nondeterministic, 09:31:06 I suppose you could treat Fueue as a complicated cyclic tag system? 09:31:09 actually, I'd stop short of saying one queue is usually enough for Turing-completeness, I'd put the Turing-completeness of queue-based languages at "often" 09:31:19 Taneb: it's queue elements are actually rather over-powered for tc-ness, though 09:31:22 *its 09:31:47 as in, they're not precisely symbols in an alphabet 09:31:54 so it can simulate anything with a quadratic slowdown. the lack of state is no theoretical problem, though it might practically make it slower. 09:32:23 ais523: and of course, I know it's just "often", not precise statements 09:33:30 two stacks is more at the "usually" point 09:33:47 otoh to make do with only symbols in an alphabet you might need a program separate from the queue (or do you? i don't think i've seen any proof) 09:34:37 It also told a bit about counter machines (equivalently pushdown automaton with multiple stacks where the stacks can contain only one symbol): 09:34:54 ais523: so is your thesis thing released or how does it all work 09:34:58 what is it about 09:35:15 I'm not sure I understand it correctly, but I think a counter machine with three (or more, unlimited) counters can simulate anything in exponential time, 09:35:27 a counter machine with two counters can simulate anything in double-exponential time, 09:35:54 shachaf: what do you mean by my "thesis thing"? my thesis is about lots of things 09:35:55 and it said something about one counter being equivalent to a pushdown automaton, but I'm not sure I read that part right. 09:36:03 i mean your thesis 09:36:08 wait, I have a meeting, I'll be back in a bit 09:36:18 ok 09:36:26 * shachaf will probably go to sleep 09:37:30 Hang on, so, is like a... push-up? automaton turing complete? 09:37:51 Taneb: what's that? 09:38:03 Like a push-down automaton but with a queue 09:39:01 b_jonas: i think one counter is no stronger than a push-down automaton, but not strong enough to emulate _every_ pd automaton 09:39:02 with a queue, yes, but I don't think that would be called push-up 09:39:36 oerjan: it's clearly not stronger than a push-down automaton, because it's basically a push-down automaton that can have just one kind of symbol in its stack 09:39:55 clearly. 09:40:59 as for simulating any push-down automaton, I'm not sure I understood that right. I'm not even sure if it was supposed to be about deterministic or non-deterministic counter machine, and deterministic or non-deterministic pushdown automaton. I'll have to re-read, 09:41:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:41:12 -!- Quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:41:15 and if it isn't clear, I may have to read another book, but more likely I won't care. 09:41:32 the other part is slightly subtler. actually not much though - if you ever get a loop that doesn't shrink the counter overall, without passing through 0, you're doomed to never halt 09:41:49 I don't find these exponential time simulations too useful. In fact, I don't even like the quadratic slowdown simulations. I want quasi-linear. 09:41:53 (loop to the same state) 09:43:58 -!- TodPunk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:44:30 b_jonas: i think even emulating a RAM machine with a turing machine has more slowdown than that? 09:44:52 oerjan: it has a quadratic slowdown, yes. 09:45:23 oerjan: that's why I don't like turing machines, and don't like how they (and string substitution machines and similar) has become sort of the most common model people invoke about computability 09:45:29 I prefer pointer machines and similar 09:46:23 luckily, for NP-completeness and stuff, people more often refer to SAT and variants, which are equivalent to RAM machines and all sane variants of pointer machines and combinator calculus etc up to juts a quasi-linear factor. 09:46:55 well, not quite 09:47:04 ok 09:47:06 SAT is equivalent to a _nondeterministic_ ram machine or pointer machine really 09:47:12 so it's not the same 09:47:46 argh brain overuse 09:47:47 -!- Quintopia has joined. 09:48:38 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 09:48:39 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 09:49:26 @tell elliott maybe all these "canaima"s are users of http://canaima.softwarelibre.gob.ve/ <-- ooh the mystery starts unraveling 09:49:26 Consider it noted. 09:52:07 "The operating system has gained a strong foothold and is one of the most used Linux distributions in Venezuela, largely because of its incorporation in public schools." 09:52:12 any news on BANCStar by the way?\ 09:52:34 -!- Patashu has joined. 09:54:16 [wiki] [[List of ideas]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39804&oldid=39755 * Javamannen * (+23) NybbleScrambler 09:54:47 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:54:57 b_jonas: not today 09:55:26 * oerjan doesn't remember if b_jonas has been paying attention the rest of the week, if not then yes. 09:56:27 see the discussions between zzo38 and mroman. 09:58:00 the discussions between zzo38 and mroman were about the Monty hall problem and similar 09:58:46 ...go further back then 09:59:05 i could possibly be confusing mroman with someone else. 09:59:08 I think I did read that then. 09:59:21 Ok, so no new discuessions since. 09:59:40 [wiki] [[NybbleScrambler]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39805&oldid=39803 * Javamannen * (+2) 10:05:56 -!- TodPunk has joined. 10:09:03 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:09:09 shachaf: back 10:09:24 * ais523 tried to tab-complete the "back" as well as the "shachaf" 10:11:38 hais523 10:12:04 shachaf: my thesis is currently about finite-state systems 10:12:29 what exactly it's about changes over time as I try to find an appropriate subset of my research that's internally consistent and doesn't have too many dependencies on things that don't exist 10:12:50 like, writing about hardware would be nice, but there aren't any sufficiently good formalisms of delay-insensitive asynchronous hardware yet 10:12:56 and I doubt I'll have time before the deadline to make one myself 10:14:39 `quote e bad 10:14:40 566) bad people have feelings too but they're bad so it's okay \ 826) we have PR? the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] [...] "avoid success at all costs" \ 1169) C and C++ have some bad features compared to BLISS. Although C doe 10:15:22 `quote with clients 10:15:23 434) Well, I'm now experimenting with clients It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud. 10:16:25 I need to do that again 10:16:34 `quote PR 10:16:34 2) Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... More practice is in order. \ 10) GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 14) oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler 10:16:43 yes, you should never give up your evil overlord dreams 10:17:02 Oh, CaSe InSeNsItIvE. 10:17:08 hOw RuDe. 10:17:19 `` allquotes | grep PR 10:17:20 434) Well, I'm now experimenting with clients It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud. \ 718) I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL \ 826) we have PR? the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] [...] "avoid succes 10:18:04 `shuf 10:18:13 `` allquotes | grep PR | shuf 10:18:14 718) I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL \ 826) we have PR? the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] [...] "avoid success at all costs" \ 434) Well, I'm now experimenting with clients It doesn't sound like good PR to say 10:18:26 okay. 10:18:35 No output. 10:18:40 `` allquotes | grep PR | wc 10:18:45 ​ 3 64 362 10:19:00 yep. 10:19:02 Is that lines/words/characters? 10:19:09 think so 10:19:24 Taneb: yes 10:19:42 * Melvar discovers that, like do, Idris’ comprehensions will happily use whatever (>>=) and return fit. 10:20:40 idris, the language with haskelly type classes _and_ overloading madness 10:20:51 ( run $ the ({ [EXCEPTION String] } Eff (Either String) Integer) $ [ the Integer (x * y) | x <- pure 2, y <- raise "no" ] 10:20:51 Left "no" : Either String Integer 10:22:13 I am going to guess it will also use whatever guard fits. 10:23:35 -!- nooodl has joined. 10:24:01 !python print range(10) 10:24:04 ​[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9] 10:24:23 ( the Integer 4 10:24:23 4 : Integer 10:24:30 Sweet, I know idris now 10:26:26 ( run $ the ({ [EXCEPTION String] } Eff (Either String) Integer) $ [ x * y | x <- pure 2, y <- raise "no" ] 10:26:26 Left "no" : Either String Integer 10:26:52 Apparently in that case the one full type suffices. 10:33:57 ( the 10:33:57 the : (a : Type) -> a -> a 10:34:28 [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39806&oldid=39783 * B jonas * (+1713) 10:35:09 ( the ((a : Type) -> a -> a) the 10:35:09 the : (a : Type) -> a -> a 10:35:25 ok, I wrote up as much as I understood from the conversations and the github stuff 10:39:05 oh duh you were the one making the article 10:39:12 * oerjan needs a working memory 10:45:13 oerjan: no need for memory, just use a computer for that 10:46:39 [wiki] [[BANCStar]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39807&oldid=39806 * GreyKnight * (+134) 10:57:33 oh, linux 3.15 is released. so now we're definitely past version pi. 11:08:24 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 11:21:26 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:34:34 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:54:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:55:51 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:08:16 -!- augur has joined. 12:12:39 what is the prevailing opinion about specifying stuff on other peoples languages in the wiki? 12:14:16 well i've done that, but in very small doses. 12:15:40 (like deciding Itflabtijtslwi's EOF convention) 12:17:01 you should be pretty sure the language doesn't have a more specific definition or implementation outside the wiki... 12:18:54 and preferably that it's not currently being worked on by its author 12:19:19 so, generally speaking: if you come by with the first implementation you may decide? :D 12:19:26 ER... 12:19:45 little details, anyway. 12:30:00 -!- yorick has joined. 12:34:16 -!- Sorella has joined. 12:35:25 of course if the author is around here, it cannot hurt to ask. 12:35:47 (i assume you wouldn't be asking this then, though) 12:42:17 myname: Mark it at least as your specification 12:42:37 i.e. say it's a variant of the original author's specification 12:43:00 like Foobar -> call your's Foobar+ or something 12:43:33 I wouldn't just change someone else's language 12:44:08 If you write a detailed enough specification you can submit as an ESOSC Draft :P 12:44:14 +it 12:44:57 i disagree if it's about something which makes the original language unimplementable unless it's specified. 12:45:00 if i'd get ESOSC i may dovthat 12:45:16 rather than an actual extension 12:46:05 what about "there are implementations that do X whereas others do Y"? 12:46:05 -!- Melvar has quit (*.net *.split). 12:46:36 myname: you could just make a section about your implementation, describing its choices 12:46:45 -!- Melvar has joined. 12:47:01 okay 12:50:36 myname: "get ESOSC"? 12:52:01 that stuff that was floating around here just confused me 12:52:40 Hmm 12:52:51 [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39808&oldid=39798 * GermanyBoy * (+824) fibonacci 13:03:17 [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39809&oldid=39808 * GermanyBoy * (-12) /* Tape via stacks */ fix 13:10:52 [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39810&oldid=39809 * GermanyBoy * (-135) /* Tape via stacks */ format and removed unnecessary code 13:23:09 [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39811&oldid=39807 * FireFly * (+1631) Add tables for instruction opcodes, add section about conditionals 13:24:11 [wiki] [[BANCStar]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39812&oldid=39811 * FireFly * (-2) /* Arithmetic instructions = */ Oops 13:27:36 FireFly: is the statement I wrote about the implementation and old floppy right? I'm not sure I understood the irc discussion correctly 13:27:46 I don't know 13:27:51 ok 13:29:45 maybe we'll find BANCStar commands for displaying tiles and sprites and collision detection 13:29:53 and moving the viewpoint 13:29:59 viewport 13:30:13 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:36:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:38:32 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:46:47 -!- password2 has joined. 13:52:09 [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39813&oldid=39810 * GermanyBoy * (+166) /* Built-in classes */ toString 13:55:04 [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39814&oldid=39813 * GermanyBoy * (+793) /* Linked list */ a new data structure 13:57:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Gah headache). 14:14:41 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:15:18 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 14:15:23 -!- edwardk has joined. 14:17:37 hu 14:17:55 If you know a pair of inverses mod m you also get a second pair of inverses for free 14:18:02 that's a neat trick I wasn't aware of until now 14:23:31 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:23:53 -!- edwardk has joined. 14:24:44 It's the shipping charges that really get you. 14:25:07 -!- edwardk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:25:17 -!- edwardk_ has joined. 14:29:47 -!- edwardk_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:38:08 -!- spiette has joined. 14:38:59 -!- conehead has joined. 14:42:55 Do we know something about (a*s) `mod` (a*b)? 14:44:13 sounds = a * (s `mod` b) 14:47:55 -!- password2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:54:33 -!- drdanmaku has joined. 15:02:36 hm 15:02:57 Do we know something about the inverse of m in mod phi(m)? 15:04:01 I suspect it's always 1 15:04:25 but I don't beleive that for sure 15:05:06 hm wait 15:05:10 it is 1 15:05:19 because well 15:05:27 m mod phi(m) is 1 anyway 15:05:33 at least for primes 15:06:04 -!- password2 has joined. 15:06:44 -!- password2 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 15:07:42 -!- password2 has joined. 15:07:58 most m are not relatively prime to phi(m), so have no inverse 15:08:44 this includes all even m>2, and all m with a square divisor 15:13:47 -!- nycs has joined. 15:18:25 -!- mihow has joined. 15:44:33 this script here is even wrong 15:44:38 a^(phi(m)) mod m = 1 15:44:42 that doesn't hold forall m 15:47:53 for which m doesn't it? 15:48:37 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v. 15:49:07 if i'm reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler's_theorem right, you can only be sure of this when gcd(a,m)=1 15:49:20 yes, of course 15:49:39 so it holds for all m and all relatively prime a 15:55:26 -!- edwardk has joined. 16:00:46 https://www.dropbox.com/s/dsmndtrg4fuwmrg/2014-06-12%2017.58.26.jpg not the most useful page in my biology textbook 16:06:06 6^(phi(8)) mod 8 is zero for example 16:09:43 of course it holds for m where m is prime 16:09:50 because then it's essentially fermat's theorem 16:13:19 are there finite groups that don't have at least one cyclic subgroup? 16:14:10 are there even non-cyclic finite groups 16:15:15 probably. 16:18:07 which would mean that there are finite groups G that have no element g with order |G| 16:19:35 every element g produces a subgroup S where |G| = order of g? 16:19:55 if you mean |S|? 16:20:02 oh. yeah 16:20:13 so every finite group has at least one cyclic subgroup 16:20:20 maybe even one where |S|=1 16:20:31 trivially S={e} is always a cyclic subgroup? 16:20:37 only cyclic groups G have elements with ord(g) = |G|. 16:21:23 For finite groups G and primes p, if p | |G| then G has at least one element of order p. 16:21:40 it's actually even p^n | |G| 16:21:43 I think 16:22:25 it's not. 16:22:27 hm 16:22:54 Sylow's theorem (which you probably have in mind) talks about a subgroup, not an element. 16:23:11 (his first theorem, that is) 16:24:04 mroman: hmm. 16:24:21 int-e: I had sylow in mind 16:24:52 doesn't there's a subgroup of order q imply, that there is an element of order q? 16:25:46 no. that would mean that every group has an element of order 16:25:51 |G|, where G is the group 16:26:02 since G is a subgroup of itself 16:26:21 (hmm, or is q a prime power? but it's still false) 16:27:01 permutation groups are also non-cyclic for n>2 16:27:01 The easiest counterexample is the Klein four group. 16:29:02 so... 16:29:08 if g has order n, there's a subgroup of order n 16:29:26 but the vice-versa thingie doesn't hold.. hm 16:31:47 2 is a natural number, but not all natural numbers equal 2. 16:32:01 obviously :) 16:32:06 sorry, this thing just happens all the time in math. 16:32:15 I'm aware of that 16:32:59 I just thought that you can only create subgroups by using an element g in G and it will produce a subgroup of order |g| 16:34:00 no, you can have other subgroups than that 16:34:05 you get subgroubs from a number of generators 16:34:05 but the vice-versa thingie doesn't hold.. hm 16:34:19 but there is a subgroup for each maximal prime factor 16:34:20 a single generator gives a subgroup of size its order 16:34:44 that is, if p^n is the highest power of p in the factorisation of |G|, there's a subgroup of order p^n 16:35:44 oh sylow was mentioned 16:36:37 but uh anyway, a really simple example of a group with a noncyclic subgroup is Z2 x Z2 x Z2 16:36:47 which contains Z2 x Z2 as a subgroup, and that's not cyclic 16:51:15 but every subgroup produced by a single generator is still cyclic? 16:51:59 by definition 16:52:07 cyclic = has a single generator 16:52:49 ((Z,+) is cyclic, btw) 16:54:11 I think I confused primitive roots with generators 16:54:26 I thought generators always must have the same order as the group 16:54:54 although primitive roots isn't a term used for general groups 16:55:09 Z2 x Z2 is generated by the set {(1,0),(0,1)} 16:56:18 And I'd call the elements of that sets the generators, once the set is established in the context. 16:57:34 are vector spaces groups? 16:57:45 with addition, yes. 16:57:46 without the scalar multiplication at least 16:58:13 (just check the axioms) 16:59:00 the basis of a vector space is also a generator? 16:59:03 or generators? 16:59:36 I don't get how subgroups with multiple generators are supposed to work 16:59:55 (0/1) and (1/0) will certainly form a sub-group 17:00:25 a basis of a vector space isn't necessarily a generator 17:00:37 you start with the set of generators, and then close it under the group operations (inverse, and the binary operation) 17:01:13 since with a basis you can multiply by any element of the underlying field, whereas with generators you can only add 17:01:57 well 17:02:04 E.g. the subgroup of (R,+) generated by {1} is (Z,+). 17:02:36 (Funny things happen. The subgroup of (R,+) generated by {1,sqrt(2)} is isomorphic to (Z,+)^2 17:02:39 ) 17:03:42 {1,sqrt(2)}? 17:03:51 a set with two elements 17:04:16 but what's the subgroup? 17:04:28 {1,1.41,2,2.41....}? 17:04:34 { x + y*sqrt(2) | x,y in Z } 17:08:01 you also get 0 (technically this is a group operation; the empty set generates the trivial group), the inverses -1 and -sqrt(2), and any number you can get by adding those things together, which is { x + y*sqrt(2) | x,y in Z }. Fortunately, + is commutative; for non-abelien groups the generated group can be quite hairy. 17:20:52 -!- lollo64it has joined. 17:25:05 -!- Bike has joined. 17:25:52 -!- shikhin has joined. 17:28:35 -!- MoALTz has joined. 17:53:31 -!- ^v has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:56:44 -!- ^v has joined. 17:57:06 [wiki] [[User talk:Lucasieks]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39815&oldid=39453 * Lucasieks * (+12) 17:57:16 [wiki] [[User talk:Lucasieks]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39816&oldid=39815 * Lucasieks * (+1) 18:02:39 good edits 18:08:03 for which x is the subgroup of (R,+) generated by {1,x} isomorphic to (Z,+) and not (Z,+)^2 18:08:09 just rationals? 18:11:18 yes 18:12:12 dang it, what do you call two reals whose quotient is rational again 18:12:17 there was an adjective for it iirc! 18:12:59 ah. commensurable 18:16:57 you know whats a fun group 18:16:58 R/Q 18:21:19 R is also a Q-vector-space. Which has a basis (assuming the axiom of choice) ... 18:21:29 mind-bending 18:22:36 apparently R/Q is isomorphic to R 18:27:03 what's an example of an element of R/Q 18:27:51 oh: i guess these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitali_set#Construction_and_proof 18:28:07 no wait why is it [0, 1] 18:29:53 because [0,1] is convenient and isomorphic to R? 18:30:24 what's R/Q? 18:30:39 quotient set 18:30:42 group, whatever 18:34:17 nooodl, an element of R/Q is a set of R that's closed by adding rationals, basically 18:35:50 or uh, better explanation, for any x in R then {x+q : q \in Q} is an element of R/Q 18:36:41 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:37:08 a vitali set is the opposite, it's one point from each element in R/Q 18:41:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:53:12 `olist (955) 18:53:12 olist (955): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti 18:56:33 `danke shachaf 18:56:34 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: danke: not found 19:02:11 -!- shikhout has joined. 19:03:10 [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Javamannen * uploaded "[[File:NybbleScrambling.png]]" 19:05:29 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:06:22 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin. 19:10:02 [wiki] [[NybbleScrambler]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39818&oldid=39805 * Javamannen * (+35) Added descriptive graphics 19:16:55 -!- edwardk has joined. 19:35:27 on an unrelated note: I'm working on a CoreWar-clone that resembles traditional memory layouts/CISC cpus a little bit closer 19:35:43 there's one illegal opcode exception 19:35:56 which will also enable the possibility of writing multi tasked program 19:36:19 by purposely execute an illegal opcode and perform the task switch 19:36:45 it also allows to recover from being tricked into executing an illegal opcode 19:36:54 that is, as long as your interrupt service routine stays intact 19:38:03 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: .). 19:43:03 although I've been thinking about adding hardware multitask support too 19:43:36 or at least add a timer 19:44:52 (programs run actually on different cpus sharing the same memory) 19:54:17 -!- password2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:04:58 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: sleep). 20:36:28 [wiki] [[Gs2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39819&oldid=38178 * Nooodl * (+273) /* Commands */ finish documenting opcodes 20:50:42 -!- mhi^ has joined. 21:03:24 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:09:32 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:10:36 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 21:10:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:18:55 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:19:40 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 21:19:40 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 21:23:37 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 21:26:18 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:44:08 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 22:04:44 Now I wrote a program for using for writing .MOD musics. 22:17:55 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:24:07 -!- b_jonas has joined. 22:28:47 -!- mihow has joined. 22:42:54 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 22:45:36 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg). 22:48:34 Coding by SMS text message - Computerphile: http://youtu.be/0jraYGjhyY8 22:48:39 i want this! 22:57:16 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 22:58:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:00:34 -!- madbr has joined. 23:06:37 -!- edwardk has joined. 23:07:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:11:03 ho god the brainfuck survey 23:12:34 why "ho god"? 23:13:41 looking at it and it's reminding me of how messed up the situation is with text mode vs binary mode 23:13:49 ah 23:14:14 Also "what should eof return" is a hard question 23:14:59 because there is no way to signal eof 23:15:21 it has to be a value between 0 and 255 23:15:28 7 23:15:37 so it has to conflict with one character no matter what 23:15:41 we should specify a 9 bit version of brainfuck 23:15:44 :D 23:15:58 (with -1 for EOF) 23:18:40 (or borrow from the C standard: ", returns the next byte from standard input. at EOF, the behaviour of , is implementation-defined." 23:18:43 ) 23:19:11 no, EOF shall be undefined behaviour! 23:19:20 -!- boily has joined. 23:21:22 `oots (955) 23:21:23 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oots: not found 23:21:30 `olist (955) 23:21:30 olist (955): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti 23:21:36 srcond time 23:21:39 but c has a way to get filesize 23:21:41 *second 23:21:54 guess what. I grepped for oots in the logs. 23:22:00 @massages-loud 23:22:00 oerjan said 13h 51m 59s ago: meanwhile, finns are weird → http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg <-- one super-delicious ice cream hth 23:22:01 so you're not supposed to ever read bytes past EOF anyways 23:22:02 BAD IDEA 23:22:25 madbr: um pipes hth 23:22:34 I'm a win32 coder 23:22:43 sockets? 23:22:52 afaik pipes are broken in the windows world 23:23:05 (not that I've ever used them) 23:24:11 basically all the console-batchfile-textfile architecture of windows is subtly broken and you don't want to test the edge cases because they will break 23:24:26 this includes stuff like "non ascii filenames" 23:26:01 * boily gasps 23:26:09 this is generally due to inheriting the DOS mess 23:26:11 oh no you didn't just mention non-ascii filenames! 23:26:57 they are ok for user land interaction 23:27:25 but once it's some datafile that's going to ship with a product, non-ascii filenames = "please break on other OSes" 23:28:15 if the filename appears anywhere in source code, you're begging for the string to be interpreted as latin-1 on one compiler and utf-8 on some other 23:28:16 not good 23:28:49 don't worry. some utf16 is garanteed to creep in. good lock with endianness! 23:29:12 doesn't matter, almost all big endian platforms are dead 23:29:25 except maybe for the wii U and whatever clunky servers 23:30:19 some day, middle endian will come back! 23:31:47 basically ARM blocked off the stream of new big endian architectures 23:32:54 madbr: I would not call Power dead. 23:33:20 given that a lot of new stuff is being done for power servers (google etc.) 23:54:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).