00:05:16 <kmc> IEEE 1337
00:05:42 <oerjan> elliott: NaN NaN NaN i can't hear you
00:05:45 <myname> ISO 9001
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01:11:42 <Sgeo> Wonder if you could make a highly dynamic environment with pure immutability and FRP
01:12:49 <oerjan> i'm afraid we'll never know the answer, as int-e has changed the @faq command.
01:13:03 <Sgeo> @faq Can Haskell be Smalltalk?
01:13:03 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ
01:13:13 <Sgeo> bah
01:13:21 <Sgeo> (Probably better for newbies though)
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01:39:48 <Sgeo> Hmm, I'm sad that chaining isn't so easy in Smalltalk
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02:48:13 <Sgeo> Cute
02:48:13 <Sgeo> valueWithExit 
02:48:13 <Sgeo>   self value: [ ^nil ]
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04:32:12 <Jafet> Today, the anniversary of a CA upgrading from 1024-bit root keys https://www.digicert.com.my/news/news_20130515.htm
04:34:26 <Bike> i don't get it
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05:14:01 <Sgeo> Ugh I don't think I like the ... lessened down mechanics of Hearthstone, but I think I'd like being able to play quickly without spending a fortune and being able to play the full game
05:15:14 * Sgeo is suddenly reminded of a C# vs Java thing. I think ais523 said something like C# being the better language but Java having a better environment? Well, Magic: the Gathering might be a better game but Hearthstone has a better play environment. Although I'm not yet actually involved enough in either to say
05:16:35 <Bike> god
05:16:40 <Bike> i NEED to stuff you into a locker now
05:19:26 <fizzie> How can you stuff god into a locker? 
05:21:29 <Bike> she just needs to say something like that, and i will be necessarily empowered
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05:37:43 <myname> maybe i want to learn how to use markov chains
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05:46:17 <Jafet> I bet you can learn from fungot
05:46:17 <fungot> Jafet: you know, that went fairly well, that too.
05:46:50 <fowl> Jafet, sometimes i could swear theres a real person pulling his strings
05:48:01 <Jafet> ^style
05:48:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
05:48:08 <Jafet> ^style youtube
05:48:09 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
05:48:24 <Jafet> fungot do you have video tutorials
05:48:24 <fungot> Jafet: he´s hot! i just assumed it was flown from outside of the devs after 3dr went down.
05:48:41 <Bike> fungot: how do you feel about space oddity
05:48:41 <fungot> Bike: erm... no one on board if it happens often. that took a few minutes to burn. looks stunning! must see!! its very very very intersing!!
05:50:03 <myname> unplausible, he doesn't talk about how well he could fap
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05:51:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * IceCodr *  New user account
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06:54:17 <Sgeo> I wonder if you could say that in Hearthstone terms, all Magic creatures have Taunt
06:55:02 <Sgeo> Hmm, not quite equivalent, in Hearthstone attacker could still choose which Taunt creature to attack
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06:59:55 <mroman_> With function overloading I actually don't need type classes
07:00:15 <mroman_> it's surprisingly powerful
07:01:26 <mroman_> @tell oerjan Makes sense. More or less it just defines how one can legally "overload" it
07:01:26 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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07:38:57 <mroman_> this is really fun :)
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09:00:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Two]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39517 * Tailcalled * (+2029) Created page with "'''Two''' is a language invented by [[User:Tailcalled]]. It is an uncomputable extension to a [[Brainfuck]] dialect, designed to increase the power as much as possible with a ..."
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09:06:10 <mroman_> nortti: http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/
09:06:23 <mroman_> 17 have answered the survey so far. So I took the time to create a working draft with the current results
09:06:34 <mroman_> somebody even wanted EOF to be 4 o_O
09:08:32 <mroman_> hm. output in text mode should probably use ASCII anyway?
09:08:49 <mroman_> unless you want unicode or something
09:10:57 <mroman_> or at least ASCII compatible
09:11:05 <mroman_> otherwise using \n wouldn't make sense anyway
09:11:45 <mroman_> two brainfuck derivatives in two days?
09:13:22 <mroman_> What does I. do?
09:13:33 <mroman_> ah. noops
09:13:38 <mroman_> hm.
09:18:50 <tailcalled> UTF-8 all the things
09:19:39 <mroman_> tailcalled: I loops forever if the cell is already "infinity"?
09:20:26 <mroman_> I read that as "I" increases until it becomes infinity and if that can't be done it loops forever
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09:30:52 <lifthrasiir> woohoo, what's ESOSC?
09:32:14 <slereah> What does the lambda mean in NBF
09:32:29 <slereah> Oh, is it nuffin
09:35:42 <mroman_> slereah: yeah
09:37:34 <slereah> Why are [] always paired anyway
09:37:45 <slereah> A lone [ sounds like a good idea for an if statement!
09:38:18 <slereah> Though I guess it may get confusing
09:38:47 <slereah> Oh wait, not an if I guess
09:38:50 <slereah> Just an exit
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10:25:54 <mroman_> lifthrasiir: esoteric song contest
10:26:06 <mroman_> either that or the esoteric standard committee
10:30:52 <slereah> Esoteric Senegalese Cinema
10:40:07 <mroman_> we have that to
10:40:10 <mroman_> *too
10:40:13 <mroman_> but only in senegal
10:43:08 <boily> mroman_: mrhelloman_. you're in sénégal now?
10:45:22 <Jafet> Hmm, Moolaadé is considered a Senegalese film but was "filmed in Burkina Faso". (According to wikipedia, which also puts its article in "Category:Films shot in Senegal".)
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11:04:12 <mroman_> no :)
11:04:19 <mroman_> @tell boily no. 
11:04:19 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:04:24 <oerjan> don't be so negative!
11:04:31 <mroman_> I'm positive right now
11:04:37 <mroman_> I've just managed to implement pointers!
11:04:58 <mroman_> I can now do stuff like foo :- B A A -> B* B**; foo := pop pop getPtr dup getPtr
11:05:24 <mroman_> and it type checks as it should
11:05:36 <oerjan> @messages-hour
11:05:36 <lambdabot> mroman_ said 4h 4m 10s ago: Makes sense. More or less it just defines how one can legally "overload" it
11:05:46 <mroman_> (getPtr :- A -> A*; pop :- A ->; dup :- A A -> A)
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11:07:44 <mroman_> the only thing that's annoying currently is seeing error messages that actually aren't :D
11:08:03 <oerjan> fiendish
11:08:28 <mroman_> "Can't match expected type `int' with `float' [add]"
11:09:02 <mroman_> the problem is it searches through every overloaded version of a function until it finds one that typechecks
11:09:11 <mroman_> but in the process of doing so it just prints error messages :D
11:09:22 <oerjan> i recommend changing that.
11:09:35 <mroman_> the first defined version of add is add :- int int -> int
11:09:52 <mroman_> oerjan: I will ;)
11:10:36 <mroman_> currently the problem is that you can't define the type of a function that should be somewhat polymorphic
11:10:46 <mroman_> i.e sum :: (Num a) => [a] -> a in Haskell
11:10:53 <mroman_> I don't have type classes
11:11:36 <mroman_> so sum :- A* -> A obviously doesn't type check when you use add in it
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11:12:27 <mroman_> that' d produce "can't match expected type `int' with `A' [add]"
11:12:35 <oerjan> mroman_: now ponder what happens when you make a pointer to a polymorphic value hth
11:12:42 <mroman_> oerjan: I know
11:12:55 <mroman_> The solution I have in mind is to disable type checking for such functions
11:13:11 <mroman_> well
11:13:18 <mroman_> disable requiring a type signature to be precise
11:14:06 <mroman_> I can treat "sum" as "inlined"
11:14:11 <mroman_> and then infer the type myself
11:14:16 <oerjan> do you know about the ml value restriction twh
11:14:21 <mroman_> oerjan: no
11:14:30 <oerjan> that's ml's solution to that problem.
11:14:46 <oerjan> but it might not apply to a stack language.
11:15:09 <mroman_> i.e. since there's an add :- int int -> int and add :- float float -> float
11:15:23 <mroman_> the function foo := 5 5 add and foo := 5.0 5.0 add both will type check
11:15:37 <mroman_> however, what you currently can't do is define genericAdd := add
11:15:42 <oerjan> oh wait you were not talking about pointers to polymorphic values at all.
11:15:56 <mroman_> because that' require a type signature genericAdd :- ? stuff here ? genericAdd := add
11:16:42 <mroman_> oerjan: I just can't type check such functions "out of context"
11:17:00 <mroman_> I check each function individually if it corresponds to its type signature
11:17:13 <mroman_> and then I check the code together
11:17:49 <mroman_> genericAdd :- A A -> A; genericAdd = add; can't fullfil its type signature
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11:21:44 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/W0OX9LoY <- that'd be my approach to solve it
11:22:31 <mroman_> It works
11:22:41 <mroman_> but you can't overload such functions anymore :)
11:23:23 <mroman_> (i.e you couldn't do stuff like genericAdd :: (Num a) => a -> a -> a and also have a genericAdd :: (Foobaz a) => a -> a -> a
11:23:26 <mroman_> )
11:23:53 <mroman_> which would be kinda weird anyway
11:23:54 <oerjan> also, that probably breaks recursion hth
11:25:25 <oerjan> (which i'm thinking because i'm vaguely recalling that _without_ recursion, the hindley-milner type system is simply equivalent to inlining everywhere.)
11:25:50 <oerjan> (and then type checking non-polymorphically.)
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11:27:31 * oerjan wonders what language codepad is guessing that as
11:27:43 <oerjan> oh it says C
11:31:50 <oerjan> <mroman_> somebody even wanted EOF to be 4 o_O <-- inspired by unix ^D, presumably
11:45:55 <atehwa> mroman_: funny we should have ESOSC, since there was a similar thingy in early 2000's, ENSI: http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/
11:46:08 <Melvar> `unicode 
11:46:09 <HackEgo> U+0004 <control> \ UTF-8: 04  UTF-16BE: 0004  Decimal: &#4; \  \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
11:46:34 <Melvar> `multicode 
11:46:35 <HackEgo> U+0004 <control> \ UTF-8: 04  UTF-16BE: 0004  Decimal: &#4; \  \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
11:47:43 <mroman_> oerjan: http://codepad.org/1UUkCPjL
11:48:02 <mroman_> recursion?
11:48:04 <mroman_> hm. 
11:48:08 <mroman_> haven't tested that yet
11:49:51 <mroman_> well
11:50:02 <mroman_> fib :- int -> int; fib := dup fib swap fib add type checks at least
11:50:20 <oerjan> i meant with polymorphism.
11:50:20 <mroman_> even though that wouldn't calc fib
11:50:26 <mroman_> oerjan: hm
11:50:36 <mroman_> oerjan: true
11:50:45 <mroman_> maybe
11:50:48 <mroman_> let me check
11:51:43 <mroman_> :D
11:51:48 <mroman_> not if you inline it :D
11:53:36 <oerjan> hm, i suppose your method is also the way C++ templates do it.
11:53:47 <oerjan> so i guess inlining ought to work.
11:54:04 * oerjan doesn't _actually_ know C++ templates.
11:55:22 <mroman_> well mother @= parent female mother can't be inlined
11:55:31 <mroman_> that'd produce infinite amounts of code :)
11:55:35 <mroman_> also
11:55:48 <mroman_> bla :- A -> A A; bla := dup bla; can't be type checked so far
11:56:05 <mroman_> which makes sense
11:56:08 <mroman_> I mean...
11:56:12 <Melvar> “fib := 1 > if dec dup dec fib swap fib add then”?
11:56:18 <mroman_> probably
11:56:28 <mroman_> A -> A A means that after wards the top element has been duplicated
11:56:38 <mroman_> but bla := dup bla; wouldn't just duplicate it
11:56:44 <oerjan> mroman_: um surely bla := dup bla _shouldn't_ have the type A -> A A
11:57:05 <mroman_> oerjan: bla := dup bla looks like infinite type :D
11:57:11 <oerjan> yes.
12:17:34 <mroman_> recursion is indeed a problem :D
12:19:57 * oerjan puts on his "told you so" hat
12:20:02 <mroman_> well
12:20:06 <mroman_> it's a java stackoverflow
12:20:18 <mroman_> I think it will work if I mark it as "visited" after a recursion
12:20:30 <mroman_> it's a problem of my implementation
12:20:35 <oerjan> OKAY
12:20:35 <mroman_> not a problem of the type system I think
12:22:48 <mroman_> it still a little bit sucky though
12:26:25 <mroman_> oerjan: http://codepad.org/w6zVJRLq
12:26:39 <mroman_> ^- that one seems to work nicely
12:26:46 <mroman_> (notice that mother is recursive)
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12:45:26 <nortti> 12:06 < mroman_> somebody even wanted EOF to be 4 o_O <-- I think I know who, the rationale was that 4 is ascii EOT
12:47:35 <mroman_> oerjan: I apologize.
12:48:59 <oerjan> wat.
12:49:12 <oerjan> (APOLOGY ACCEPTED.)
12:49:51 <mroman_> it doesn't work :(
12:50:11 <mroman_> (recursive polymorphic stuff)
12:51:40 <mroman_> hm.
12:51:48 <mroman_> looks like I need some sort of type classes afterall
12:52:12 <oerjan> YOU CANNOT ESCAPE THE MONADS
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12:53:38 <Melvar> I just defined fib in forth. With a loop, because forth doesn’t seem to do recursion.
12:55:26 <oerjan> http://www.taygeta.com/forth_intro/recurse.htm
12:56:10 <Melvar> Bluh, of course they would do it that way.
12:59:20 <oerjan> or http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Forth_Lesson_4#Recursion_and_Chaining which seems to do it in another way again.
13:04:19 <Melvar> Hm, both of those seem to work in gforth.
13:04:30 <Taneb> mroman_, nortti, would it be within ESOSC's remit to make a lambda calculus standard?
13:05:16 <mroman_> oerjan: A template based approach looks like it works
13:05:26 <mroman_> you define the function with generic arguments
13:05:32 <mroman_> and then you define one with conceret types
13:05:54 <nortti> Taneb: what would it do?
13:06:14 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/kmaam6fQ <_ You define the implementation first
13:06:30 <mroman_> and :: copies the implementation and sets a concrete type signature
13:06:56 <Taneb> nortti, just a standardized syntax and semantics for Lambda Calculus
13:07:11 <nortti> aren't those already?
13:08:01 <mroman_> Taneb: you mean "ascii" syntax?
13:08:30 <mroman_> i.e ^x.f x vs \x.f x vs whatever notation people use too
13:08:36 <Taneb> mroman_, I was thinking Unicode with an ascii fallback
13:09:04 <mroman_> isn't that kinda standardized to use the lambda symbol?
13:09:33 <mroman_> WP seems to use lambda at least
13:09:55 <mroman_> and untyped lambda calculus?
13:09:58 <mroman_> just to be clear?
13:10:59 <Taneb> U+03BB with 0x5C as fallback
13:11:04 <Taneb> Yes, untyped lambda calculus
13:14:44 <mroman_> > chr 0x5C
13:14:45 <lambdabot>  '\\'
13:16:36 <mroman_> So far most I've seen is usually in the form of \fxy.fyx or λfxy.fyx
13:17:16 <mroman_> I'm not sure how many times you'd need more than ['a'..'z']
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13:19:56 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/7eBWlWD3
13:20:13 <mroman_> I'm curious what kind of stuff I can solely do with the type system o_O
13:20:46 <mroman_> I think I can do at least one :- -> A; inc :- A -> A A; dec :- A A -> A;
13:21:15 <mroman_> I'd have to figure out if I can write a compare function only with the type system
13:21:41 <mroman_> probably not :(
13:21:49 <mroman_> how would I distinguish numbers
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13:49:59 <mroman_> Taneb: I can put it to the upcoming drafts ;)
13:51:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39518&oldid=39179 * Maxdefolsch * (+1028) /* My optimizing interpreter again */ new section
13:57:34 <mroman_> He better make it a standard conform bf interpreter!
14:01:25 * slereah puts 33 as EOF
14:01:51 <slereah> And + applied to 98 jumps to 136
14:05:37 <oerjan> > chr 33
14:05:38 <lambdabot>  '!'
14:06:15 <oerjan> slereah: but that usually applies to reading the program, not its input...
14:08:04 <slereah> I will also require balanced + and -!
14:08:14 <slereah> Otherwise it would be anarchy
14:09:19 <nortti> balanced '+' and '-' or balanced '+' and '-!'?
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14:15:54 <slereah> + and -
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15:16:13 <mroman_> slereah: Is +[-] balanced?
15:16:21 <mroman_> every + has a matching -
15:16:25 <slereah> It's fine
15:22:15 <mroman_> nortti, Taneb: There's been an update to NBF btw. (http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/s/2014-2/ESOSC-2014-D2-R4.pdf)
15:23:22 <Taneb> mroman_, should sections 2 and 3 be merged?
15:23:48 <Taneb> Or at least 3 should be 2.1
15:25:52 <mroman_> agreed
15:26:27 <mroman_> 3 -> 2.1
15:29:26 <Taneb> With that change I'll approve it
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15:36:16 <nortti> mroman_: seems good, I approve
15:36:33 <nortti> with the 3 -> 2.1 change
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15:58:22 <mroman_> k
15:58:25 <mroman_> *change*
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16:15:49 <mroman_> k. listed as approved.
16:16:04 <mroman_> I gotta find a good latex to html tool
16:21:12 <Taneb> Pandoc?
16:31:00 -!- FreeFull has joined.
17:02:54 <mroman_> yeah
17:02:59 <mroman_> but the output look kinda non funky
17:04:02 <mroman_> and puh
17:04:03 <mroman_> hm
17:04:09 <mroman_> no figure support
17:04:10 <mroman_> nothing
17:04:34 <mroman_> pretty sucky actually
17:04:38 <mroman_> but it's better than nothing.
17:06:33 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep).
17:06:47 <mroman_> Pandoc: http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/s/2014-2/ESOSC-2014-A2.html
17:07:07 <mroman_> Some other tool by latex -> rtf + rtf -> html http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/s/2014-1/ESOSC-2014-A1.html
17:07:11 <mroman_> A1 looks much nicer.
17:08:20 <nortti> A2's code is pretty much just pure html
17:08:28 <nortti> A1 is ... something
17:13:40 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/XeZF   free gigs
17:13:52 <fizzie> ("Extra space" partitions on two conference proceedings USB sticks.)
17:17:13 -!- hk3380 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:17:43 -!- conehead has joined.
17:18:58 <Melvar> A1 uses `'! Kill it with fire!
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17:20:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Icepy *  New user account
17:21:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Icepy]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39519 * Icepy * (+86) Created page with "Hi, I'm Icepy. I create esoteric programming languages (made in python), and iOS apps."
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18:16:24 <mroman_> Taneb: Why do you wan't a standard about lc?
18:16:27 <mroman_> *want
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18:31:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@text]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39520 * Icepy * (+4809) Created page with "@text is a programming language created by [[User:Icepy]], and is related to [[!!!Batch]], But has it's own way of interpreting. You don't tell it what to do to get to a certa..."
18:33:41 <Bike> oh no.
18:38:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@text]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39521&oldid=39520 * GreyKnight * (+28) not convinced
18:40:16 <elliott> can we stop putting [citation needed] tags on every bad language it's kinda getting old
18:43:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:@text]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39522 * GreyKnight * (+175) Created page with "== "programming language" == This isn't a programming language, it's a character set. --~~~~"
18:46:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@text]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39523&oldid=39521 * Icepy * (+21) 
18:46:46 <fizzie> Looks like a: fight.
18:47:08 <Bike> i'm entertained.
18:47:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Icepy *  uploaded "[[File:Example.png]]"
18:47:53 <Bike> http://esolangs.org/w/images/7/70/Example.png aw yiss
18:49:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@text]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39525&oldid=39523 * Icepy * (+9) 
18:51:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:@text]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39526&oldid=39522 * Ehird * (+491) /* "programming language" */ re
18:52:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@text]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39527&oldid=39525 * Icepy * (-5) 
18:52:55 <Bike> i love how shitty the ascii S in esme is.
19:09:10 <mroman_> a pretty bad character set
19:09:20 * impomatic was just looking at this: http://sdtimes.com/content/article.aspx?ArticleID=71233&page=1
19:09:27 <impomatic> "Fifteen toys, games and tools that teach programming"
19:09:27 <mroman_> seeing as it encodes the values of asci probably with 10times the space requirements
19:10:06 <mroman_> well
19:10:15 <mroman_> when I was 13 I also made esolangs like that
19:10:17 <mroman_> so...
19:13:00 <mroman_> nowadays I just make crappy languages and mark them as esoteric as a cover up
19:17:27 <mroman_> Is there a recent BASIC compiler for windows somewhere?
19:17:52 <mroman_> The *real* BASIC. Not some Basic Dialect that has actually nothing to do with Basic except that it doesn't use curly braces
19:18:27 <Bike> the basic that can be spoken of is not the true basic
19:19:01 <fizzie> But REALbasic is all object-oriented and all.
19:19:28 <fizzie> Oh, it's called Xojo now.
19:20:32 <nortti> hmm, I wonder what sort of esolang IMAGINARYbasic would be
19:21:17 <olsner> similar to imaginaryBASIC but the other way around?
19:21:42 <nortti> that exists?
19:22:12 <mroman_> oh well
19:22:17 <mroman_> I know Haskell
19:22:27 <mroman_> That means I can create all sorts of crazy BASIC dialects myself
19:23:14 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_BASIC_dialects   a long list
19:23:25 <mroman_> yeah
19:23:30 <mroman_> but it's missing CRAZYBASIC
19:24:31 <olsner> google seems to refuse to google for crazybasic
19:24:33 <fizzie> I don't think I've really used more than maybe four or five BASICs.
19:25:18 <mroman_> shouldn't be too hard to mock up a BASIC dialect and translate it to C
19:25:33 <mroman_> that could probably even be done just be preprocessor macros
19:26:04 <nortti> but that would just be ugly
19:26:11 <mroman_> maybe
19:26:38 <fizzie> There's a LLVM-based QBasic-wannabe, based on a quick googling.
19:26:55 <nortti> qbasic-wannabe?
19:27:15 <fizzie> As in, "tries to be QBasic-compatible", as far as I can tell.
19:27:24 <nortti> oh, right
19:27:35 <mroman_> Does it have line numbers?
19:28:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:@text]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39528&oldid=39526 * GreyKnight * (+507) /* "programming language" */
19:28:15 <fizzie> I can't really tell, it's just a Github readme that I hit. It could be pretty vaporware.
19:28:26 <nortti> actually, doesn't freebasic also have qbasic-emulation mode?
19:28:40 <fizzie> E.g. there's a section heading titled "Implementation Detail", containing only "int/long is directly supported by LLVM, so , no discssiion needed."
19:28:49 <fizzie> Which might not count as a good sign.
19:29:14 <nortti> "discssiion"?
19:29:57 <fizzie> The FreeBASIC site claims "high level of support for programs written for QuickBASIC", and QBASIC is a QuickBASIC derivative, so I guess, in a sense.
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19:31:32 <nortti> isn't qbasic actually a subset, not a derivative?
19:32:22 <fizzie> It's different. I'd guesstimate there's some inconsequential QBasic thing that does not exist as-is in QuickBASIC.
19:33:08 <fizzie> In fact, I have a vague feeling I knew of such a feature.
19:34:01 <fizzie> Perhaps some difference in the behaviour of CALL ABSOLUTE.
19:34:09 <olsner> I mostly remember that qbasic was crap compared to quickbasic
19:34:24 <fizzie> It's lacking the compiler and the linker, for one thing.
19:35:57 <fizzie> Based on some alt.lang.basic posts, I get the impression that QuickBASIC 5 adds a library called "QB" containing "some QBASIC functions/statements that are not part of QB4.5".
19:36:14 <fizzie> QuickBASIC 4.5 being the version QBasic was derived from.
19:36:46 <nortti> interesting
19:37:52 <fizzie> QuickBASIC, of course, has better ways to do the kind of things that you'd resort to CALL ABSOLUTE in QBasic for.
19:38:21 <nortti> I forget, what did call absolute do? call dos funcs?
19:38:40 <fizzie> "Transfers control to a machine-language procedure."
19:38:43 <fizzie> http://gamma.zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html#QEw4MDhh
19:39:13 <fizzie> The example given there (DATA + loop with a POKE + CALL ABSOLUTE) is very typical.
19:39:19 <nortti> ah
19:40:07 <olsner> %, is that the suffix for integer variables?
19:40:16 <fizzie> Yes.
19:40:58 <fizzie> % for integer, & for long, $ for string, ! and # for single- and double-precision floats.
19:41:39 <fizzie> It's a bit of a shame that there was something in the QuickBASIC 4.5 manuals that my conversion script (that generated the qbc.html) choked on. (They use mostly the same file format.)
19:41:49 <olsner> it's nice how "print screen" is a three byte sequence of assembly, I doubt you can do that in three bytes today
19:44:46 <fizzie> Also I think the sigils are optional in QBasic, in the sense that you can "DIM x AS type-keyword" to get an undecorated variable name.
19:46:17 <fizzie> It's got user-defined types, too. (And optional line numbers.)
19:46:57 <kmc> where does CALL ABSOLUTE put the "arguments"
19:48:10 <kmc> probably the C calling convention
19:48:12 <fizzie> On the stack, I believe.
19:48:24 <kmc> i'm glad that now I know how to write a JIT compiler in QBasic
19:48:36 <fizzie> The "C calling convetion" is a rather flexible term for x86-16 DOS.
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19:52:06 <kmc> well, let's say the Microsoft one ;)
19:52:16 <kmc> "not so much a convention as a suggestion"
19:52:32 <fizzie> There was a nice overview somewhere, but I can never re-find it when I want.
19:56:43 <fizzie> Also some random ASM-in-QBasic tutorial suggests a callee-cleans-the-stack ("Pascal") convention.
19:57:25 <fizzie> Or at least has a "retf 6" in an example called as  Call Absolute (BYVAL x%, BYVAL y%, BYVAL color%, SADD(program$))
19:59:56 <fizzie> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/51501/EN "DECLARE FUNCTION <name> [ALIAS "aliasname"][CDECL][<parameter-list>] -- Basic's calling convention pushes parameters onto the stack in the order in which they appear in the source code. -- This convention also specifies that the stack is restored by the called routine just before returning control to the caller."
20:00:43 <fizzie> Apparently in real QuickBasic you can do either, while QBasic CALL ABSOLUTE only does the one.
20:01:29 <fizzie> Though it's not like you could link in any C libraries either.
20:04:08 <kmc> sadd program
20:04:23 <kmc> why can't you link C libraries with QuickBasic?
20:05:15 <olsner> it's in qbasic you can't, because it doesn't have the compiler and linker
20:05:35 <fizzie> Right.
20:05:51 <fizzie> (The SADD keyword is QuickBasic-only, also.)
20:06:26 <kmc> what's it do?
20:06:36 <fizzie> Speaking of sad acronyms, here's one from the recent conference.
20:06:46 <fizzie> "Augmenting the standard DNN input with the bottleneck feature from a Speaker Aware Deep Neural Network (SADNN) shows a general advantage over the standard DNN based recognition system, --"
20:06:57 <kmc> heh
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20:07:13 <Bike> haha, what
20:07:58 <kmc> olsner: you could probably write your own dynamic loader without too much trouble
20:08:12 <fizzie> SADD has something to do with the offset of a variable (in terms of VARSEG), but I'm not sure how it's different from VARPTR.
20:08:14 <olsner> yes, probably
20:08:57 <kmc> also the doc example looks at VARSEG but doesn't use it?
20:08:57 -!- tertu has joined.
20:09:14 <fizzie> The DEF SEG is "using it".
20:09:54 <fizzie> "DEF SEG [=address] -- Sets the current segment address. -- A segment address used by BLOAD, BSAVE, CALL ABSOLUTE, PEEK, or POKE; --"
20:10:19 <Bike> golly, this takes me back. qbasic was the first language i pretended to learn
20:10:34 <kmc> ah
20:10:38 <kmc> yay for global variables
20:10:58 <olsner> it probably goes and sets es directly
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20:11:22 <olsner> or something? dunno
20:12:13 <fizzie> (GW-BASIC was probably my first language. Either that or some quirky DOS Prolog implementation, I forget the order.)
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20:13:19 <olsner> I started out in quickbasic 4.5, I remember the compiler was great at making bikes and other silly patterns appear on the screen faster
20:14:28 * impomatic still uses FreeBASIC occasionally.
20:14:55 <fizzie> Making Bikes appear faster.
20:19:28 <fizzie> I used a little bit of TI-BASIC, which was great at making silly patterns appear on the screen slower.
20:21:27 <Bike> indeed.
20:21:52 <olsner> Bike: you were quite slow to appear now, would you mind compiling yourself?
20:22:20 <Bike> trying to learn grafix later was confusing, i was like "whoa i can't toggle pixels??"
20:24:00 <pdxleif> I wrote the UI for a chess program in TI-BASIC
20:27:47 <mroman_> sick
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20:30:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@text]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39529&oldid=39527 * Tailcalled * (+29) 
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20:35:35 <myname> pretty crappy language imo
20:36:14 <myname> also: is there any other twodimensional language besides rail that has functions?
20:42:50 <kmc> doesn't befunge sort of have them?
20:43:27 <myname> how?
20:43:29 <fowl> a function is just a route you put the IP on
20:43:58 <fowl> SNUSP has them
20:55:14 <fizzie> Funge-98 with SUBR has them.
20:55:56 <fizzie> Also some ad-hoc "Befunge with functions" things.
20:56:40 <fizzie> Oh, and Funciton possibly counts as two-dimensional too, and has functions.
20:58:01 <fizzie> And Recurse.
20:58:06 <myname> funciton looks awesome
20:59:25 <fizzie> fungot has a couple of "functions" in the "code flow comes in from multiple sources, and returns based on an integer index pushed before the 'call'" sense.
20:59:25 <fungot> fizzie: games due out november i think
21:01:17 <fizzie> Like, the rightmost columns on lines 225-227, 231-236 and 258-263 of https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98 test for a "return address" of 0/1/2.
21:01:17 <fungot> fizzie: there was more than 100 people on board, three indeed died. keep in mind that this was a low speed as he does have an incredible singing talent!
21:02:00 <fizzie> From the "parse this program" routine, as called by ^bf, ^ul and ^def.
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21:11:53 <fizzie> ^def tmp bf ,[.,]!what did
21:11:53 <fungot> Defined.
21:11:57 <fizzie> ^tmp this do
21:11:57 <fungot> this do
21:12:01 <fizzie> ^tmp
21:12:11 <fizzie> Just ignored, I guess.
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21:22:55 <kmc> he who makes a fungot of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
21:22:55 <fungot> kmc: nonono... so i guess
21:23:34 <olsner> is it pretty painless to be a fungot?
21:23:34 <fungot> olsner: that was so funny!
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21:49:59 <oerjan> it's always amusing whenever pine opens my inbox with "0 messages"
21:50:26 <oerjan> (there was a server upgrade.  the file is actually there, but pine doesn't find it for some reason.)
21:50:34 <oerjan> sorry, *alpine
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21:56:07 <boily> being on a bike causes front winds.
21:56:52 <boily> @massages-loud
21:56:52 <lambdabot> mroman_ said 10h 52m 33s ago: no.
21:57:39 -!- metasepia has joined.
21:57:44 <boily> ~metar CYUL
21:57:45 <metasepia> CYUL 152100Z 15022G34KT 15SM FEW080 BKN220 27/17 A2990 RMK ACC1CI6 SLP125 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
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22:01:44 <Bike> https://d262ilb51hltx0.cloudfront.net/max/803/1*uJH6MbrCqIW-kgh1liY4ZQ.jpeg
22:02:41 <boily> ow.
22:10:00 <Slereah_> Now I get it!
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22:12:03 <int-e> "Materiel", are they trying to appeal to a military audience?
22:12:31 <Bike> this is a DoD diagram. so, uh, yes.
22:12:43 <boily> what is materiel in a military context?
22:12:50 <Bike> stuff.
22:13:01 <Bike> guns, mostly
22:13:26 <Bike> militaries use the term in english as distinct from "material".
22:13:38 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materiel may help
22:13:44 <Bike> because, who knows, we didn't use enough loanwords from french.
22:13:59 <boily> vive le français! :D
22:14:08 <int-e> impossible!
22:14:45 <Bike> "how could we make 'lieutenant' even harder to spell"
22:14:51 <int-e> (From Old French impossible, from Latin impossibilis [...])
22:15:05 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:15:51 <int-e> Bike: add an accent or two, perhaps?
22:15:52 <boily> fr:lieu → en:place; fr:tenant → en:holding.
22:16:28 <int-e> so it's a position.
22:16:43 <boily> the one who holds the position.
22:16:56 <Bike> military rank used to be tied to economic status. lieutenants were landholders.
22:17:04 <Bike> "used to be" insert cynicism here
22:18:09 <int-e> <cynicism> the military is a firm believer in equal opportunities, certainly </cynicism>
22:18:46 <oerjan> i vaguely recall not doing that was one of the reasons the prussian army was so powerful.
22:19:01 <oerjan> > cycle "moltke! "
22:19:03 <lambdabot>  "moltke! moltke! moltke! moltke! moltke! moltke! moltke! moltke! moltke! mol...
22:19:15 -!- metasepia has joined.
22:19:16 <boily> ~duck moltke
22:19:17 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
22:19:31 <oerjan> now that _is_ shocking
22:19:48 <int-e> oerjan: relatedly the prussian public school system was introduced for producing better recruits
22:19:48 <boily> ~duck helmuth von moltke
22:19:49 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
22:19:56 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
22:19:57 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_von_Moltke_the_Elder
22:20:14 <oerjan> metasepia: you are disappointing us
22:20:19 <boily> ~duck prussia
22:20:19 <metasepia> A center of population, commerce, and culture; a town of significant size and importance.
22:20:30 <Bike> haha, what
22:20:41 * boily therapeutically *MAPOLES* his bot
22:21:21 <int-e> ~duck bike
22:21:21 <metasepia> bike definition: '''chiefly Scottish''' a nest of wild bees, wasps, or hornets.
22:21:29 <int-e> haha
22:21:34 <Bike> yeah i remember that one
22:21:44 <int-e> I've not seen it before
22:22:13 <boily> ~duck int
22:22:13 <metasepia> int definition: intelligence.
22:22:29 <boily> well. at least my bot has a sane definition for “int”, so all is not lost!
22:22:41 <int-e> oh. that's the rpg definition
22:22:47 <int-e> ~duck dex
22:22:47 <metasepia> dex definition: the sulfate of dextroamphetamine.
22:22:52 <oerjan> ~duck wis
22:22:52 <metasepia> wis definition: '''archaic''' know.
22:22:59 <boily> ~duck chr
22:22:59 <metasepia> canine hypoxic rhabdomyolysis.
22:23:00 <int-e> ~duck sta
22:23:01 <metasepia> sta definition: station.
22:23:03 <oerjan> not very consistent here
22:23:09 <int-e> ~duck cha
22:23:09 <metasepia> Tea; - the Chinese name, used generally in early works of travel, and now for a kind of rolled tea used in Central Asia.
22:23:22 <int-e> chr? cha? hmm.
22:23:33 <int-e> ~duck con
22:23:33 <metasepia> con definition: to commit to memory.
22:23:33 <boily> I see the mapoling was effective ^^
22:23:39 <int-e> what?!
22:23:56 * boily pats his bot. “good bot. continue to be fungottian.”
22:23:56 <fungot> boily: what the hell out when i saw the fists does that have to say more unique and sexy about her, i'm a big rc jet no pilots aboard, it doens't mean it now suddenly becomes true.
22:23:58 <oerjan> ~duck san
22:23:58 <metasepia> A member of a traditionally nomadic hunting people of southwest Africa.
22:23:59 <int-e> I wonder what a "con man" is then.
22:24:09 <int-e> ~duck con man
22:24:10 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
22:24:13 <boily> ~duck man
22:24:14 <metasepia> man definition: an individual human; '''especially'''.
22:24:20 <int-e> ~duck duck
22:24:20 <metasepia> duck definition: any of various swimming birds (family Anatidae, the duck family) in which the neck and legs are short, the feet typically webbed, the bill often broad and flat, and the sexes usually different from each other in plumage.
22:24:31 <boily> so, a man is one metric human.
22:24:32 <int-e> "not a material component"
22:25:03 <int-e> (one of the few IWC strips that I remember)
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22:25:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:26:47 <int-e> (link: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/435.html )
22:28:33 <boily> ~duck IWC
22:28:33 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
22:28:59 <int-e> ~duck NSA
22:29:00 <metasepia> nsa definition: National Security Agency.
22:29:49 <Bike> ~duck wic
22:29:50 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
22:29:55 <Bike> ~duck WIC
22:29:55 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
22:29:58 <Bike> some weak ass shit here
22:30:07 <int-e> ~duck hth
22:30:07 <metasepia> 
22:30:13 <int-e> ?!
22:30:14 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
22:30:15 <boily> holy. fungot. of. doom.
22:30:15 <fungot> boily: well it's about time it was
22:30:34 <oerjan> oh no boily what have you summoned
22:30:46 * boily hyperventilates
22:30:57 <Sgeo> http://wow.zamimg.com/images/hearthstone/cards/enus/animated/GAME_005_premium.gif
22:30:58 <oerjan> ?v
22:30:58 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\"
22:31:01 <Sgeo> I love this art
22:31:03 <int-e> why would ~duck answer in tabs?
22:31:13 <int-e> `fix show
22:31:13 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fix: not found
22:31:16 <int-e> > fix show
22:31:17 <lambdabot>  "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
22:32:50 <boily> int-e: the query was “>> :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :~duck hth”, and the answer was “<< PRIVMSG #esoteric :          \r\n”.
22:33:30 <int-e> boily: the reply contained two tab characters, which got lost in your cut&paste.
22:34:20 <boily> I don't keep tab on tabs.
22:34:22 <int-e> (well, not lost, but expanded, is my guess)
22:40:25 <Bike> > show ""
22:40:26 <lambdabot>  "\"\""
22:40:34 <Bike> of course.
22:42:31 <boily> > show ""
22:42:33 <lambdabot>  <hint>:1:7:
22:42:33 <lambdabot>      lexical error in string/character literal at character '\ETX'
22:43:13 <Bike> 9_9
22:43:19 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
22:43:57 <boily> fungot: what are nine-eyes?
22:43:57 <fungot> boily: what is his vocal range. another youtube famous counter tenor. it is completely electrical. the first time i've seen too many cocks in his grave. what the fuck
22:44:28 <boily> Bike: stop making auditive eyes, you are disturbing fungot.
22:44:28 <fungot> boily: oh goddd. xd he has really bad diction the
22:45:17 -!- Burton has joined.
22:58:38 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:23:54 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:24:20 -!- metasepia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:33:14 <quintopia> bye boily :(
23:33:36 -!- boily has joined.
23:35:57 <boily> I think my modem is overheating...
23:38:21 <kmc> bad times
23:40:51 <quintopia> boily!
23:43:18 <boily> quintopia!
23:44:49 <quintopia> you took metasepia away :(
23:48:06 <boily> oh. let me remetasepify the channel!
23:48:25 -!- metasepia has joined.
23:48:29 <boily> ~metar KATL
23:48:29 <metasepia> KATL 152252Z 31014G22KT 10SM SCT040 16/08 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP152 T01610083
23:49:22 <boily> strange. very strange.
23:49:27 <boily> ~metar CYUL
23:49:27 <metasepia> CYUL 152300Z 15023G32KT 15SM FEW080 BKN200 26/17 A2991 RMK AC1CI7 AC TR SLP130 DENSITY ALT 1300FT
23:49:42 <boily> ten degrees hotter here than in Atlanta. indeed strange.
23:50:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:51:14 <quintopia> we had 100% chance of rain today
23:51:24 <quintopia> but it didn't rain most of the day
23:51:43 <quintopia> it stopped in the morning
23:53:03 <quintopia> must be miserable up there
23:53:16 <quintopia> hey boily can you find me a job
23:56:05 <boily> it was windy as fungot when I cycled home.
23:56:22 <boily> I could, but only if you have a Canadian passport ^^
23:58:26 <boily> tonight's ride: https://goo.gl/maps/zYcZN
23:59:12 <boily> (customized by foot, because Google is [REDACTED] stupid when it comes to bike paths.)