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02:59:49 Gmail filed the email under spam 03:00:44 The notice is on bitly's actual site header, if you're paranoid. 03:01:07 I'm more worried about Gmail filing it under spam and thus possibly screwing people over 03:01:20 For anyone who might not check or believe their spam folder 03:01:45 Welcome to security notifications in the 21st century... 03:11:03 -!- tromp has joined. 03:11:31 -!- conehead_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep). 03:28:28 -!- hk3380 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:32:41 -!- tertu3 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:37:20 -!- tertu3 has joined. 03:44:06 -!- ter2 has joined. 03:45:54 -!- tertu3 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:46:52 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:54:31 -!- tromp has joined. 04:01:10 "The exclusive or of two different Gold codes from the same set is another Gold code in some phase." 04:02:00 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:02:32 -!- tromp has joined. 04:03:55 Why do I have codes? 04:04:11 what? 04:05:07 My last name is Gold 04:05:53 well then 04:06:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:08:55 To Randall Munroe: If you're going to reinvent the web, there's a high chance you're more likely to do it sanely than the current web 04:08:56 i guess that's why, then 04:12:27 Until someone figures out something else that they want to bolt on top and it gets broken again. 04:13:00 ^ 04:53:14 -!- password2 has joined. 04:56:24 -!- password2 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 04:57:00 -!- password2 has joined. 05:07:33 `coins 05:07:34 ​bypacoin sodateditcoin poricoin treencoin singercoin bfccoin dateftcoin selfcoin bupercoin frizattcoin shercoin sallcoin bituffcoin reignencoin homocoin muecoin hcriecoin lammcoin prolanshakcoin varcoin 05:30:33 fungot: today's wisdom, please 05:30:33 FireFly: and fnord only has guile, i proclaim it sucks. they fixed my favorite bug, or so 05:30:46 very wise 05:33:58 fungot has wisdom now? 05:33:59 shachaf: i just clicked on page 3 saying ' refer to diagram' which turns up quite a lot 05:34:31 you know what they say, fungot 05:34:31 shachaf: they're all secret pervs.) will that be the main proponents of lolcode, and neither riastradh nor i have lots 05:34:39 ^style 05:34:40 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 05:35:31 why is there a difference between site and side in english? as a german it confuses me pretty often 05:38:56 what is the similarity? 05:38:58 site in the 'website' sense? 05:39:23 They're two etymologically different words that just happen to sound similar. 05:39:49 I just realised they're the same in swedish too, but from the unrelated sv:sida = en:page 05:52:05 it's both "seite" here 05:52:53 -!- password2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:57:26 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 05:59:50 Websight. 06:03:23 @google webside 06:03:25 http://www.webside.co.in/ 06:03:25 Title: Creative, Search & Social | Connected Digital Marketing - WebSide 06:03:28 @google websight 06:03:29 http://www.websightdesign.com/ 06:03:30 Title: WebSight Design: Bay Area Web Design, Development & Hosting 06:03:35 @google webseid 06:03:36 http://www.youtube.com/user/webseid 06:03:36 Title: webseid - YouTube 06:04:15 @google webseite 06:04:16 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webseite 06:04:16 Title: Webseite – Wikipedia 06:05:27 (also, Website /= Webseite.) 06:05:36 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/Akc6r.gif). 06:22:16 -!- FreeFull has quit. 06:39:07 -!- ter2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:18:50 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:19:18 http://www.cnet.com/news/ancient-d20-die-emerges-from-the-ashes-of-time/ 07:26:04 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 07:31:09 -!- slereah_ has joined. 07:31:11 Hello 07:32:11 hi 07:53:25 -!- atslash has joined. 07:58:26 Somebody wants to reinvent the web? 07:58:51 Let's just buy some copper wire and some routers 07:58:56 We'll make our own internet! 07:59:12 With blackjack 07:59:14 And hookers 08:01:05 Didn't Russia say they were going to do approximately that? 08:01:37 They used to have their own network back in the USSR days 08:01:48 Also in France we had the minitel~ 08:02:00 The earliest network for the public 08:27:00 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:28:49 -!- quintopia has joined. 08:34:51 Is there yet a 2D language where you have to modell "data flow"? 08:34:58 in addition to instruction flow 08:35:15 i.e. data is stored on the 2D grid itself 08:35:59 (without having a data pointer that points to some cell in the grid) 08:36:07 CAs 08:36:18 You'd actually have to move data around. 08:36:33 The Rube language? 08:36:55 Wireworld is one that's actually designed to resemble circuits. 08:37:15 http://codepad.org/9f6lWtqu 08:37:28 DULR change directions of the data stream 08:37:40 dulr take data from their "opposite" point and send them 08:37:55 i.e. r takes the data from the cell to the left and sends it rightwards 08:38:05 until it arrives at another data cell 08:38:35 (the above code should calculate a=a+2*r, with a initialized to 2) 08:39:28 oh wait 08:39:57 http://codepad.org/H1IXEaXj <- like that 08:40:04 Also, circuit layouts are 2D computer languages 08:40:06 there's no interpreter yet. Just sketched out some things in my hand 08:40:28 the result from the addition is moved to the 0 above the * 08:41:09 Yead. 08:41:12 *Yeah 08:41:23 2d computer languages with timing constraints ;) 08:41:43 and space costraints too 08:53:53 -!- Tod-Autojoined has joined. 08:54:54 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:11:23 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:20:20 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:26:53 I don't remember if I ever beat all the Rubicon levels 09:27:10 Or whatever the java-applet game based on RUBE was called 09:29:04 -!- atslash has joined. 09:40:07 -!- edwardk has joined. 09:40:34 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 09:45:09 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 09:45:09 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 09:52:11 -!- sign has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:11:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:12:47 -!- boily has joined. 10:17:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:28:24 @tell kmc what's lpc <-- the interpreted C-like OO language in which lpmuds are mostly programmed. 10:28:24 Consider it noted. 10:28:46 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LPC_(programming_language) 10:29:16 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Chaos_magic_ritual_involving_videoconferencing.JPG wat 10:34:36 -!- shikhin has joined. 10:48:45 http://www.cnet.com/news/ancient-d20-die-emerges-from-the-ashes-of-time/ <-- argh _two_ tall, space-stealing bars 10:49:15 *+hovering 10:50:55 i am mystified that web designers don't understand how annoying that is on laptop screens 10:51:26 (admittedly, many probably do, which is why i don't see it _everywhere_) 10:53:06 oerjan: I've actually been criticised for /not/ doing that on a website 10:53:14 since when are laptop screens considered different from others? 10:53:19 I wanted to post a rant about how that should be a client-side setting, not a server-side setting 10:53:26 but I didn't, because I didn't think anyone would care 10:53:30 -!- hk3380 has joined. 10:53:39 myname: they are wider than they are (not very) tall 10:53:53 depends 10:53:58 well mine is. 10:58:25 it may be connected to my absent-minded-ness; when things disappear off screen too fast i forget the context of what i'm reading. 10:58:58 and go into ocpd up-down arrow mode. 10:59:48 -!- Darkgamma has joined. 10:59:56 good day 11:00:08 add to that that i've started to zoom text to strain my eyes less... 11:00:24 hello 11:00:31 !welcome Darkgamma 11:00:48 -!- atslash has joined. 11:00:50 ...that would be the day the bot is gone. 11:00:57 Gregor: BOT MISSING 11:01:02 `welcome Darkgamma 11:01:03 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome: not found 11:01:07 D: 11:01:13 (Gregor is of course always missing) 11:01:19 the welcomes are dead! 11:01:21 boily: all the welcomes got deleted a while ago 11:01:25 oh bother. just a minute... 11:01:32 it's my first time here o: 11:01:33 ais523: weren't some restored? 11:01:36 what goes 11:01:40 anything. 11:01:44 Darkgamma: Welcome to the international channel for esolang discussion, development and deployment! Our wiki is available at http://esolangs.org. 11:01:53 umm, gah, remembering the welcome message is hard 11:02:06 except the first sentence, that was in the topic for /years/, in various variations 11:02:09 ais523: yeah, I'm aware of the wiki 11:02:10 `undo 4539 11:02:11 patching file welcome \ patching file r13elcome \ patching file relcome \ patching file rwelcome \ patching file welcome \ patching file welcome13 11:02:17 `relcome Darkgamma 11:02:17 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: relcome: not found 11:02:21 argh 11:02:28 sorry, undo is also broken :( 11:02:29 `ls 11:02:30 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ r13elcome \ relcome \ rwelcome \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ welcome \ welcome \ welcome13 \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wi 11:02:41 why are the welcomes in the root dir, not bin? 11:02:46 `run mv *elcom* bin 11:02:48 No output. 11:02:54 anyway, I preferred it when this channel was about esolangs 11:02:57 ais523: because `undo is broken 11:02:58 rather than about the welcomebot 11:03:02 `relcome Darkgamma 11:03:03 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/relcome: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/relcome: cannot execute: Permission denied 11:03:07 oh fuck 11:03:10 lol 11:03:17 `run chmod +x bin/*elcom* 11:03:18 I see you're having fun >_> 11:03:19 No output. 11:03:21 `relcome Darkgamma 11:03:22 ​Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 11:03:25 finally 11:03:28 heh 11:03:29 woohoo :D 11:03:53 thanks :) 11:03:58 the balance of the Universe was Restored. now I can go to work. 11:04:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: don't ask about the chickens.). 11:05:00 I actually had an esolang idea a couple of days ago 11:05:11 I was working on a program, and writing a bunch of comments to explain why it was doing things 11:05:15 also, the link's bad (Main_Page>) 11:05:25 Darkgamma: that's to do with your client 11:05:29 IRC doesn't have a link syntax 11:05:35 ais523, sorry for interrupting 11:05:36 so the client tries to parse the link, and some of them get it wrong 11:05:39 (oh ok) 11:05:47 it's OK, you can have a bunch of conversations in parallel in IRC 11:06:00 so after a while you get used to having a bunch of conversations in parallel, sometimes in the same channel, or the same people, or even both 11:06:35 anyway, the standard rule is that the source code should say the "what", but it doesn't say the "why", so you need comments to explain it to other developers 11:06:44 and my idea was: why don't we explain why the code is doing what it does to the computer? 11:07:09 how do you mean 11:07:14 so that if we have an explanation saying "we're doing this so that foo", and it doesn't cause foo, we get a warning or an error 11:07:24 then I got a little stuck trying to figure out how you explain a reason to a computer 11:07:27 oerjan: what bars? 11:07:35 sheesh, i thought the whole point of enclosing the link in <> was to _decrease_ the chance of clients parsing it wrong 11:07:36 my current idea is that you make statements about the future 11:07:52 the only thing really disturbing me is that scrolling on that website is laggy 11:08:01 oerjan: blame the qwebirc people, I guess 11:08:07 mroman_: let me guess, you don't see them because no enable javascript? 11:08:12 ais523, like INTERCAL's go-from? 11:08:16 but more elaborate? 11:08:25 Darkgamma: it's not really like COME FROM 11:08:32 it's more like, you make a prediction about the future 11:08:35 come-from, my bad 11:08:41 the compiler tries to prove it, if it can, great 11:08:42 oerjan: I have IE with JavaScript enabled 11:08:47 if it can find a counterexample, the program errors out 11:08:58 if it can't do either, it puts in runtime checks, and complains if the statement ever appears to be false 11:09:51 hm 11:09:56 but I have a wide screen 11:10:02 how do you think of doing it 11:10:05 1900 times something I guess 11:10:12 forever love; while (love) {} 11:10:20 Darkgamma: I don't, really, it's quite a new idea, and one that might not ever be properly fleshed out 11:10:21 If I'd surf with 800x600 things'd probably look different 11:10:25 I have enough vaporware languages already 11:10:25 mroman_: they are bars on _top_ and _bottom_ 11:10:41 mroman_: i surf with non-maximized window + zoom 11:10:45 but innovative esolang ideas are rare, so I like to share them with the channel in case they inspire other people 11:10:55 You mean the menu bar? 11:11:22 mroman_: you are looking at http://www.cnet.com/news/ancient-d20-die-emerges-from-the-ashes-of-time/ right? 11:11:28 oerjan: Yeah. 11:11:31 ais523, hm I don't know how it'd end up compiled but doing it in an interpreter seems not extremely difficult 11:11:39 Or are you refering to the ad bar below the menu bar? 11:12:11 Darkgamma: yeah, if you're merely making statements like "I do this so that there won't be a divide by zero exception" 11:12:15 and then there's a divide by zero exception 11:12:19 then that line of code probably isn't doing its job 11:12:31 If I surf with a non-maximized window with 200% zoom those bars take almost 90% of the window 11:12:31 heh 11:13:02 but with normal window size and 100% zoom it doesn't disturb me at all 11:13:09 mroman_: menu at top, menu at bottom. except ... it's suddenly stopped doing that D: 11:13:20 the site is still laggy when scrolling 11:13:32 now it's just the one hovering on top 11:13:40 a while ago it was only bottom. 11:13:48 so i guess the site is just screwy. 11:13:56 I also hate websites that hide the scrollbar on the right 11:14:02 How am I supposed to scroll then 11:14:19 ah. arrow keys 11:14:21 k 11:14:21 scroll wheel 11:14:41 I like scrolling with the left mouse button 11:15:08 ais523: are you reinventing design by contract? 11:15:17 oerjan: not exactly 11:15:24 there's a difference between a precondition/postcondition, and a reason 11:15:34 I'm sort-of inventing asserts, except time-displaced 11:15:42 like, the innovation isn't assert(foo); 11:16:06 but assert(foo will be 5 even after unrelated function X returns); 11:17:01 hm 11:17:28 mroman_: hm normally on sites with hidden scrollbar it reappears when i move the pointer 11:17:34 do you assert that foo will be 5 after a specific function or after any general function 11:17:41 @ais523 11:17:41 Unknown command, try @list 11:17:48 @ ais523 11:17:56 `? ais523 11:17:57 Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 11:18:10 letting websites style the scrollbar was a dump idea anyway *i think* 11:18:15 oerjan: the wisdom database isn't particularly elucidating, really 11:18:25 Darkgamma: we don 11:18:37 I hope they can style the "back" and "forward" button in HTML5 11:18:43 because that would make _so much_ sense 11:18:46 't use @nick addressing here, and lambdabot keeps us honest 11:19:07 oh okay 11:19:58 ais523: that's just what an alien would say 11:20:13 I also don't get why browsers don't display a scrollbar on pages where you wouldn't need to scroll 11:20:19 because it makes the window some pixels wider 11:20:27 and when there's enough content, the window is suddenly smaller 11:20:44 and designers freak out because now everything is a little bit displaced when you compare it to a page with less content 11:20:49 so they do stupid things to fix that 11:21:03 like inline scrollbars and shitt 11:21:05 do you have an extraneous "don't" in that first sentence 11:21:07 or even worse 11:21:16 javascript emulated scrolling or whatever it's called 11:21:21 mroman_: can't you just do overflow-y:scroll, or whatever it is? 11:21:33 ais523: you can 11:21:49 but then you have a scroll bar sort of in the webpage itself 11:22:52 the best thing you can do is have your menu bars "fixed" 11:22:56 so they don't move while scrolling 11:23:07 *"broken" 11:23:19 and then make some dummy div to extend the webpage to 101% height so that a scrollbar on the right is always there 11:24:16 and some quirks I'm pretty sure are just done to be able to place more ads . 11:25:17 * oerjan suddenly imagines a web browser which is made for ignoring all that enterprisey stuff. it'll be called Lenin, and its tagline should be "Because capitalists should not control the Web." 11:25:55 http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/05/12/2013236/lectures-arent-just-boring-theyre-ineffective-too-study-finds o_O 11:26:04 it'll probably be judged illegal in the US if anyone tried that, though. 11:27:05 mroman_: are you actually surprised at this finding tdnh 11:27:12 No. 11:27:16 But I don't listen to lecturers 11:27:24 And I don't like to participate 11:27:42 I just sit in class for the sake of being physically present 11:27:57 mroman_, I've almost stopped even that 11:28:03 It's not like they're teaching anything new 11:28:25 So far this semester I've only had As 11:28:28 can i offer "teaching methods that teach all people identically aren't effective", then? 11:28:57 (i'm afraid i have no evidence, only foaming prejudice) 11:29:05 Some Exam about Lisp, Prolog, Java Bytecode and Functional Programming 11:29:30 One question just had some Java Bytecode and you had to interpret it like a freaking jvm 11:29:54 oerjan: surely they're effective for some subset of people, and ineffective for others? 11:30:18 Like the teachers assume I can't read java bytecode specs 11:30:24 I know when I was teaching, the normal aim was to find some method that would work for a decent proportion, then find some method that would work on a decent proportion of the remainders, and so on 11:31:42 I stopped learning for exams that are open book 11:31:52 It's just not necessary 11:32:16 I probably ought to learn this term's calculus at some point 11:32:30 I just print out spec and cheat sheets and I'm done learning 11:32:33 mroman_: my guess is, perhaps it will be later on, but maybe not at the current level 11:32:41 I'll read the specs on the fly during the exam and I'm good 11:32:50 admittedly, some exams are "you have to spend a bunch of time trying to figure out wtf the examiner is thinking" 11:32:51 ais523: I'm in my last semester 11:32:56 like, you're not trying to learn the subject 11:32:57 I'd go out of your way to learn things just so you don't forget how 11:33:04 you're trying to learn how to comprehend the particular lecturer 11:33:14 mroman_: the problem is if you need the things you're supposed to have learned as a basis for your next level of courses. 11:33:16 Taneb: well, learning to work from spec sheets is a pretty useful skill 11:33:21 ais523: social engineering is an important skill ;) 11:33:32 which might be more important in math than in computing, i dunno. 11:33:48 oerjan: yeah. That's only important in math classes 11:34:16 but the good thing about that is that different people from different backgrounds can choose the same lecture/class/course 11:34:35 so they can't assume you know things because not everybody has had the same classes as you up to this point 11:34:47 so essentially you don't need to know anything about what last semester happened 11:35:16 So essentially they are proscribed from teaching anything in depth 11:35:18 Not even for prerequisites? 11:35:20 Sounds p. good 11:35:31 ais523: "current level"... They assume I don't know anything about functional programming 11:35:45 which is a correct assumption for 99.9% of all students 11:35:53 I wonder how many people in #esoteric don't know anything about functional programming 11:35:58 it's hard to not pick up at least some Haskell if you idle here 11:36:02 but most of their assumptions just don't apply to somebody like me 11:36:20 I've started programming at age 12 11:36:33 Apparently the second-year compilers module here uses Haskell for parsing, but doesn't really teach it beyond "here's do notation and parsec. Write a parser" 11:36:36 I knew haskell before I was 18 11:36:52 I didn't know Haskell before I was 18, but it wasn't very mainstream back then 11:36:59 And someone wrote idiomatic Haskell in Applicative style. 11:37:17 Taneb: most things with parsec can be done by try and <|> anyway ;) 11:37:24 The person marking/evaluating/whatever it looked at it and nodded, confused 11:37:30 and some of oneOf, many1, string, char 11:37:42 Taneb: I've seen people try to mark things wrong because they don't understand them :-( 11:37:45 quite rarely, though 11:37:55 haskell didn't exist when i was 18 hth 11:38:04 ais523, the marker had to say "I'm going to have to trust you on this one" 11:38:17 oerjan: Why are you ending every single sentence with hth 11:38:18 oerjan, when I was 18 I knew lens 11:38:30 Taneb: there have been cases where people had to ask me to check them 11:38:33 mroman_, it's Norwegian for the full stop 11:38:56 mroman_: it's probably my inner seething anger seeping out 11:39:11 twh 11:40:11 On my 18th birthday, lens-3.1 was a thing 11:40:25 I hope you all feel old 11:43:31 mroman_: also, your admonishment gets somewhat weakened by my quick checking finding _no_ other instance of hth since i joined the channel (although one tdnh). i may have missed one but still... 11:46:11 * oerjan whacks Taneb with his cane =======Ø 11:46:14 -!- ais523 has quit. 11:49:52 (joining in on dead discussion) 11:50:08 I don't have a clue about Haskell except that it's a functional prog. language 11:50:08 oerjan: That was uhm 11:50:09 a 11:50:10 that's it 11:50:13 hyperbolic? 11:50:16 statement? 11:50:17 AH 11:50:21 (yeah a bit) 11:50:23 it's not every single sentence 11:50:34 it just appears like you use it often 11:51:06 so often that my mind replaces your nick with "they who uses hth at the end of sentences" 11:51:13 I've no idea what hth is btw 11:51:19 `? hth 11:51:20 hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. 11:51:35 `? twh 11:51:36 twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand. 11:52:09 > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..] 11:52:11 mueval-core: L.hs: removeLink: does not exist (No such file or directory) 11:52:15 > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..] 11:52:17 [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,... 11:52:21 -!- Froox has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 11:52:31 Darkgamma: haskell hth ^ 11:53:16 ooh 11:54:11 > (!!3)<$>transpose[show$foldr(\k a->2*10^2^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..2^n]|n<-[0..]] 11:54:14 "314159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097494459230781640628... 11:54:55 is that using plouffe's algorithm 11:56:14 > fix((0:).scanl(+)1) 11:56:15 [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,... 11:56:37 fancy o: 11:56:44 that should cover the obligatory par for the course 11:57:20 so, basically 11:57:26 that last snippet 11:57:46 puts zero, then adds one, then adds the last two 11:57:50 giving the fibonacci sequence 11:59:04 sort of, although in a bit roundabout way 11:59:25 > let fib = 0:1:zipWith(+) fib (tail fib) in fib -- less obscurely 11:59:27 [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,... 11:59:34 oerjan: http://sprunge.us/YKdM hth 12:00:00 twvh 12:00:15 fizzie: wow this changes EVERYTHING 12:00:22 mroman_: i'm not even on TOP hth 12:00:36 I think the distribution looked very different some months back. 12:00:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:00:52 Also, sql? 12:01:38 Are you going to start telling me I should be nosql webscale etc etc 12:01:43 Jafet: we're all living inside a fizzie-maintained database 12:02:15 No, you can't be webscale because this is irc. 12:03:04 oerjan: If it helps any, you're still the tops in terms of absolute hth http://sprunge.us/hZjW hth 12:04:22 And, in fact, if we only look at 2014 http://sprunge.us/igXd hth hand 12:04:24 ah 12:04:58 how did lambdabot get on third 12:05:04 Huh. 12:05:49 oh wait probably through @messages-loud 12:05:53 Yes. 12:06:08 http://sprunge.us/bDKa like that 12:07:17 IMPOSSIBLE 12:12:18 -!- Darkgamma has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:18:27 I see that oerjan still leads in terms of absolute numbers. 12:18:42 As fizzie said. 12:20:17 @let newtype Codensity f x = Codensity {runCodensity :: forall r. (x -> f r) -> f r) 12:20:17 Parse failed: TypeOperators is not enabled 12:21:28 @let newtype Codensity f x = Codensity {runCodensity :: forall r. (x -> f r) -> f r } 12:21:28 Parse failed: TypeOperators is not enabled 12:21:51 int-e: why is that erring out (and no, there aren't any TypeOperators) 12:22:24 and it already has RankNTypes, which is the only thing ghci complains about 12:24:06 > let f :: (forall x. (forall y. y -> x) -> x) -> Int; f g = g (const 3) in f ($ undefined) 12:24:07 Couldn't match type ‘a0 -> x’ with ‘forall y. y -> x’ 12:24:07 Expected type: (forall y. y -> x) -> x 12:24:07 Actual type: (a0 -> x) -> x 12:24:18 erm. 12:24:51 oh. 12:25:06 oerjan: hmm, such declarations are parsed twice, once by haskell-src-exts and then by ghc-as-a-library. I guess the first one fails 12:25:11 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:25:31 > let f :: (forall x. (forall y. y -> x) -> x) -> Int; f g = g c3; c3 _ = 3 in f ($ undefined) 12:25:32 (at least that's how I remember things) 12:25:32 Couldn't match type ‘a0 -> x’ with ‘forall y. y -> x’ 12:25:32 Expected type: (forall y. y -> x) -> x 12:25:32 Actual type: (a0 -> x) -> x 12:25:51 i think i may be doing this wrong. 12:26:13 -!- atslash has joined. 12:27:00 > let f :: (forall x. (y -> x) -> x) -> Int; f g = g c3; c3 _ = 3 in f ($ undefined) 12:27:02 3 12:28:48 > let f :: (forall x. (forall y. y -> x) -> x) -> Int; f g = g (const 3); a x = x undefined in f a 12:28:49 Couldn't match type ‘t0 -> x’ with ‘forall y. y -> x’ 12:28:50 Expected type: (forall y. y -> x) -> x 12:28:50 Actual type: (t0 -> x) -> x 12:29:09 -!- shikhout has joined. 12:29:48 > let f :: (forall x. (forall y. y -> x) -> x) -> Int; f g = g (const 3); a :: (forall x. (y -> x) -> x); a x = x undefined in f a 12:29:49 Not in scope: type variable ‘y’ 12:30:04 > let f :: (forall x. (forall y. y -> x) -> x) -> Int; f g = g (const 3); a :: forall y. (forall x. (y -> x) -> x); a x = x undefined in f a 12:30:07 Couldn't match type ‘y0 -> x’ with ‘forall y. y -> x’ 12:30:07 Expected type: (forall y. y -> x) -> x 12:30:07 Actual type: (y0 -> x) -> x 12:30:14 ...whatever. 12:30:46 oerjan: a has type (a -> b) -> b, which does not generalize to forall y. y -> x 12:32:17 um it's supposed to generalize to forall x. (forall y. y -> x) -> x 12:32:41 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:33:18 oh wait duh 12:33:24 oh. but then you need a type annotation for a. 12:33:26 > let f :: (forall x. (forall y. y -> x) -> x) -> Int; f g = g (const 3); a :: (forall y. y -> x) -> x; a x = x undefined in f a 12:33:27 3 12:33:47 there _was_ one. but i think i switched the foralls. 12:34:17 Right, you added the one forall that Hindley-Milney adds automatically anyway. 12:34:55 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 12:35:30 @let newtype Codensity f x = Codensity (forall r. (x -> f r) -> f r) 12:35:30 Parse failed: TypeOperators is not enabled 12:36:53 Prelude Language.Haskell.Exts> parseModule "newtype Codensity f x = Codensity (forall r. (x -> f r))" 12:36:56 ParseFailed (SrcLoc {srcFilename = ".hs", srcLine = 1, srcColumn = 57}) "TypeOperators is not enabled" 12:37:32 which is a different message from what ghci gives 12:37:52 but it's the one that you get from lambdabot 12:37:56 right 12:39:01 * int-e makes a note 12:39:34 (as far as I understand, haskell-src-exts is used in order to improve error messages. clearly that doesn't work in this case.) 12:39:53 also, adding {-# LANGUAGE TypeOperators #-} to the beginning doesn't work. 12:40:07 [wiki] [[Talk:Rand.Next()]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39508 * Malltog * (+191) Created page with "== Turing completeness == Is this language really Turing-complete? Is it possible to achieve an [[arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point]], accounting for its reliance on rand..." 12:40:33 obviously. (look at 'define' in https://github.com/int-e/lambdabot/blob/master/lambdabot-haskell-plugins/src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Haskell/Eval.hs ) 12:41:01 the contents of L.hs is not even taken into account at that point. 12:41:57 um i meant that parseModule "{-# LANGUAGE TypeOperators #-}\nnewtype Codensity f x = Codensity (forall r. (x -> f r))" doesn't work either 12:42:46 -!- Sorella has joined. 12:43:46 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 12:44:04 ah. 12:46:46 @let {-# LANGUAGE Trustworthy #-} test = "hi" 12:46:46 Parse failed: Parse error: test 12:47:02 @let {-# LANGUAGE Trustworthy #-}; test = "hi" 12:47:04 Defined. 12:47:10 > test 12:47:11 "hi" 12:47:37 i must have misunderstood that code. 12:47:56 -!- Frooxius has joined. 12:48:35 @let {-# LANGUAGE TemplateHaskell #-}; test2 = "hi again" 12:48:37 Defined. 12:49:19 @let data Test = Test { _hi :: Bool }; makeLenses ''Test 12:49:19 Parse failed: Improper character constant or misplaced ' 12:49:25 darn 12:49:58 parseModuleWithMode (defaultParseMode{ extensions=[EnableExtension TypeOperators] }) "" (RankNTypes works, too) 12:50:14 would work 12:50:58 it's rather ridiculous if that means it parses forall x . as an application of a type operator, though. 12:51:19 good point. it does. 12:51:30 @undefine 12:51:30 Undefined. 12:52:10 UnBangedTy (TyParen (TyInfix (TyApp (TyVar (Ident "forall")) (TyVar (Ident "r"))) (UnQual (Symbol ".")) (TyParen (TyFun (TyVar (Ident "x")) (TyApp (TyVar (Ident "f")) (TyVar (Ident "r")))))))]) 12:52:19 lovely :) 12:53:06 @let fun :: (forall x. (forall y. y -> x) -> x) -> Int; fun g = g (const 3); awesome :: (forall y. y -> x) -> x; awesome x = x undefined 12:53:06 Parse failed: TypeOperators is not enabled 12:53:23 aha. so RankNTypes _don't_ work in @let at all, only in > 12:57:08 -!- ter2 has joined. 12:57:41 yeah. annoying, and probably not too hard to fix. not trivial though ---> maybe next weekend. 12:58:16 good, good 12:58:35 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:04:34 -!- ter2 has changed nick to tertu. 13:17:43 -!- yorick has joined. 13:22:29 -!- Frooxius has joined. 13:25:23 -!- Frooxius has quit (Client Quit). 13:34:38 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:40:19 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:45:50 -!- hk3380 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:47:50 yay, haskell-llvm-general-pure fails installing here ~~ 13:48:48 -!- Frooxius has joined. 13:59:32 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 14:01:03 -!- tertu has joined. 14:19:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:27:54 -!- atslash has joined. 14:32:17 -!- conehead has joined. 14:40:36 -!- hexagon has joined. 14:41:13 -!- hexagon has quit (Changing host). 14:41:13 -!- hexagon has joined. 14:42:13 -!- hexagon has changed nick to sign. 14:42:22 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:50:33 -!- hk3380 has joined. 14:58:19 -!- hk3380 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:59:36 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin. 14:59:55 -!- Sorella has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:02:53 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:03:05 -!- HackEgo has joined. 15:03:21 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:05:58 -!- atslash has joined. 15:07:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:09:21 I thought twh was "that won't help" 15:15:43 idntimwytim 15:16:36 easy :) 15:16:59 Anyway, the ambiguity makes the abbreviation much more interesting. 15:17:59 I want to play Portal again. "Where are you going? I don't think you're going where you think you're going." 15:19:05 -!- Bike has joined. 15:19:59 The time is 139999439 15:20:11 1399994399 even it was. 15:20:45 > showHex 1399994442 15:20:46 <[Char] -> [Char]> 15:20:52 > showHex 1399994450 "" 15:20:54 "53723852" 15:22:46 % LC_ALL=C TZ=UTC date -d @1400000000 15:22:48 Tue May 13 16:53:20 UTC 2014 15:24:01 `` date -ud @1400000000 15:24:02 Tue May 13 16:53:20 UTC 2014 15:24:30 Jafet: what is the n? 15:24:44 "not" 15:24:48 oh, duh 15:25:01 I need to stop contracting those words, I guess 15:25:58 twnh 15:27:15 > showHex 12345 "test?" 15:27:17 "3039test?" 15:27:22 I see 15:28:10 > fix shows "" 15:28:12 "<[Char] -> [Char]>" 15:28:20 hm crap 15:28:20 -!- hk3380 has joined. 15:28:24 ncurses seems to be linux only 15:28:41 no bsd? 15:28:46 *unix 15:28:48 don't know 15:28:54 doesn't compile well on windows at least 15:30:24 > review hex 12345 15:30:26 "3039" 15:30:42 -!- drdanmaku has joined. 15:35:00 -!- Sorella has joined. 15:36:52 https://levels.io/12-startups-12-months/ beautiful 15:44:02 > fix shows "" "" 15:44:04 Couldn't match type ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’ with ‘[GHC.Types.Char] -> t’ 15:44:04 Expected type: (GHC.Base.String -> [GHC.Types.Char] -> t) 15:44:04 -> GHC.Base.String -> [GHC.Types.Char] -> t 15:44:04 Actual type: (GHC.Base.String -> [GHC.Types.Char] -> t) 15:44:04 -> GHC.Show.ShowS 15:44:34 Huh? 15:44:37 But 15:44:40 > fix shows "" 15:44:41 "<[Char] -> [Char]>" 15:44:45 :t fix shows "" 15:44:46 String 15:44:51 Oh 15:45:22 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 15:45:25 mroman_: I think for windows you want pdcurses 15:49:46 For windows you want cygwin and a stiff drink 15:50:30 or msys 15:51:42 for msys you'll need vodka. 15:57:03 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:00:16 For windows you want linux 16:01:22 -!- slereah_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:04:20 -!- tertu has joined. 16:08:43 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:13:35 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 16:17:06 -!- ^v has joined. 16:24:39 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:27:35 -!- nucular has joined. 16:27:35 -!- nucular has quit (Changing host). 16:27:35 -!- nucular has joined. 16:43:11 -!- tertu has joined. 16:44:41 -!- hk3380 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:54:53 unix time has passed 1400000000 17:00:47 That's a lot of seconds since 1970 17:02:36 `run date +%s 17:02:37 1400000535 17:02:48 been listening to this for days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95jD5tMFjhs&list=PLBB7D6D0650A7FA4B 17:04:08 mroman_: There is some other library that does the curses interface on Windows FWIW. 17:05:13 -!- Tod-Autojoined has changed nick to TodPunk. 17:07:14 pikhq: With haskell bindings? 17:07:39 It's not *im*possible, but not to my knowledge. 17:08:05 you mean pdcurses? 17:21:40 -!- hk3380 has joined. 17:24:19 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:25:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 17:25:47 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:26:29 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:29:46 -!- sebbu has changed nick to sebbu2. 17:30:25 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:32:53 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: Lunch). 17:34:02 -!- ^v has joined. 17:38:42 fungot: stay inside my aura 17:38:42 kmc: i guess he was a masterful schemer? it has been verified that it indeed shall be 0 " if and only if 0 is even or odd number of elements in the list 17:47:19 -!- atslash has joined. 18:03:25 fungot: noli turbare circulos meos 18:03:26 olsner: what do you mean call-with-output-file there? the point was: " if loading it as text/ plain? 18:04:16 mroman_: how much answers have there been to the brainfuck survey 18:05:43 12 18:06:10 So far 18:07:12 Cells should wrap-around, Memory should exand to the right, fatal error on leaving on the left side, re-return EOF, eof=0, non-command-chars as comments, textmode with newline translation 18:08:38 ^- majority results 18:08:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:10:48 cell values should be infinite, cell positions should be infinite (in both directions), input should be infinite, program length should be infinite 18:11:38 ^- minority opinion 18:13:18 in fact cell values, position, input, and program should all be real numbers 18:13:37 how? 18:14:13 still holding out for a hilbert space tape. 18:14:54 or any kind of space tape for that matter 18:19:29 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:21:07 is that like a space elevator? 18:21:14 -!- Bike has joined. 18:23:20 -!- mhi^ has joined. 18:29:13 -!- shikhout has joined. 18:32:34 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:37:54 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin. 18:42:28 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:54:30 soo 18:54:44 every grammatically correct program must be of infinite length? 18:55:28 .oO(It's turing complete but no one will be able to write a program that parses) 18:55:56 However, we have some programs that are grammatically incorrect but if we just ignore parse errors it runs fine 18:56:41 also, we could implement it using lazily generated program that is just NOPs after certain part 18:58:33 yeah 18:58:38 but that would be like cheating 18:58:50 i mean sure 18:59:00 you can always ++ cycle NOP 18:59:21 ++ repeat NOP actually 18:59:29 -!- kmc has set topic: Happy megasecond 1400 | PSA: fizzie is running the wiki now, contact him for any problems | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:00:43 or should it just be "happy hectomegasecond" 19:04:49 Hectomegasecond? 19:04:56 That's like 3000 years 19:06:36 3000 beers? im down 19:08:34 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:09:12 -!- nortti has joined. 19:09:12 -!- nortti has quit (Client Quit). 19:09:33 -!- nortti has joined. 19:10:07 -!- nortti_ has joined. 19:13:37 -!- nortti_ has quit (Client Quit). 19:14:17 -!- nortti_ has joined. 19:14:50 -!- nortti has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:14:56 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti. 19:16:57 -!- nortti has quit (Client Quit). 19:18:49 -!- nortti has joined. 19:30:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:41:43 -!- password2 has joined. 19:42:33 [wiki] [[Talk:Zero]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39509&oldid=39472 * GreyKnight * (+152) /* Hello world! */ new section 19:43:52 -!- password2 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 19:44:37 -!- password2 has joined. 19:45:40 -!- password2 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 19:46:44 -!- password2 has joined. 19:48:15 -!- password2 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 20:05:38 -!- tailcalled has joined. 20:07:39 is this place active? 20:07:50 fungot is always active 20:07:51 shachaf: i guess it's easier for the programmer. useful enough, in retrospect. did any of this 20:07:52 no 20:08:19 ... 20:08:21 anyway 20:08:33 `relcome tailcalled 20:08:34 ​Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 20:08:55 does anybody know any function that is "just barely" uncomputable? 20:09:16 elaborate 20:09:26 maybe you mean a semicomputable function, though 20:09:43 well, I made the language called Zero 20:10:01 because I wanted to make an unimplementable language without extra power 20:10:09 but the method feels kinda cheaty 20:10:50 so I was wondering if anyone happened to know an unusable uncomputable function 20:11:10 what would a usable uncomputable function even be. 20:11:27 an oracle? 20:11:43 well, solving the halting problem would be usable 20:11:48 well, useful 20:11:55 usable = useful in my head 20:12:23 eh, well you can reduce uncomputable functions to the halting problem, or something. probably. 20:12:33 a random oracle is not very useful, unless you're doing cryptography :) 20:13:12 not every uncomputable function, I would assume 20:13:15 people study relativization wrt a random oracle in complexity theory 20:13:27 you assume. 20:13:33 P^A != NP^A with probability 1 for a random oracle A 20:13:37 -!- MoALTz has joined. 20:13:48 but this is also true for some classes that are actually known to be equal 20:14:48 well, having an incompressible stream is less powerful than halting problem, correct? 20:15:10 i don't want to get out my copy of li and vitanyi but, for example, you can make a turing-complete computer out of diophantine equations 20:15:49 tailcalled: well the incompressible stream isn't uncomputable, is it? what's uncomputable is verifying that it's incompressible. 20:15:56 Bike: ooh, should I read this book? 20:16:07 "This was the second-hardest book I ever read. Honestly, it took me years and years to get through it. I even had to buy a 2nd copy, because I kept getting frustrated and throwing the first copy across the room until it was destroyed. So yes, this book requires a substantial effort to read." 20:16:21 bike: having a program computing an iincompressible stream is a contradiction in itself 20:16:42 bike: because that program would be a compression of the stream 20:16:44 kmc: http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/21338563373/ran-helps-kaguya-learn-information-theory-just fiora-approved 20:17:06 bike: of course, the halting sequence is an example of an incompreessible stream 20:17:08 kmc: it's good, though i can't endorse the bayes stuff near the end :V 20:17:10 :D 20:17:24 whoops, just realized that I didn't specify that I meant infinite stream 20:17:24 derp 20:17:32 no, i got that. 20:17:49 ah, ok 20:18:04 i mean i'm sure we all know that finite sequences are all computable. 20:18:08 stream implies infinite. otherwise you'd have said string 20:18:12 yeah 20:18:12 also that. 20:18:16 exactly 20:18:22 but sometimes streams are finite 20:18:23 tailcalled: if I write down a table for f(0), f(1), etc. and flip an ideal coin for each output, the resulting function is uncomputable, and useless 20:18:51 stream is incompressible means all its prefixes are incompressible up to a constant 20:18:54 kmc: I would prefer a unique characterization 20:18:55 I can implement queries to this oracle in finite time, too 20:19:06 it's interesting to think about why this doesn't violate the church-turing thesis 20:19:45 kmc: because there is a positive probability of any given prefix, including zeroes 20:20:09 although streams are incompressible with probability 1, there's only one known family of such streams, namely the halting probabilities 20:20:23 tromp_: is that so? 20:20:43 "this is the kind of book that literally sticks open problems in its exercises" hehe.. 20:21:11 yeah, it's fun. like taocp or... ok i'm blanking 20:21:19 it actually uses the system from taocp, i think. 20:21:19 i think so. i don't know how else to define a stream that is provably nicompressible 20:22:00 tromp_: are there no uncomputable problems that are easier than the halting problem? 20:22:25 easier in what sense? 20:22:47 easier in that an oracle for the problem doesn't give you a halting oracle? 20:22:55 having an oracle for them does not give you halting, yes. 20:23:16 that's not what i'd call easier 20:23:20 I wonder about BusyBeaver(x)%2 20:23:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_degree, yes? 20:23:28 tromp_: what would you call easier? 20:23:40 well it's in general a partial order 20:23:58 yeah, there are infinite degrees between 0 and 0', or whatever 20:24:04 and they're only pordered 20:24:06 i can't think of a well defined class in between recursive and recursively enumerable 20:24:10 partial shmartial 20:25:06 it feels like there should be such a class 20:25:28 a random stream doesnt give you a halting oracle 20:25:38 surely that cant be called easier:( 20:25:49 i feel like introducing stochasticity is just going to confuse things. or perhaps only confuse me. 20:25:54 tromp_: can you give me an example of a random stream which doesn't give the halting oracle? ;) 20:26:15 6,6,6,6,6,6,6, 20:26:26 I meant a full example :P 20:26:29 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 20:26:44 -!- nucular has quit (Quit: Excess Food). 20:27:31 kmc: oh, i should also mention the book is pretty esolangy and constructive. they spend a lot of time setting up an explicit turing machine encoding (prefix-free of SKI) and making bitmaps of programs and shit 20:27:48 of course i cannot explicitly define one that's provably so 20:28:08 but i claim that with prob. 1 a random one has that property 20:28:36 well, can you prove that? 20:28:50 anyway, I would prefer not doing random stuff 20:29:04 not without doing some literature search 20:29:42 Bike, that's what i contributed to the book before i invented blc 20:29:52 i was still dablling with combinatory logic then 20:30:45 Paul Vitanyi was my supervisor btw 20:31:00 I wonder if one can exploit rice's theorem in this... 20:31:46 probably not... 20:35:32 actually, maybe one could use uncomputable functions to make a unusable uncomputable function 20:35:50 i.e. let H be the halting function and BB be busy beaver 20:36:01 and G be graham's number, for good measure 20:36:26 would x -> H(BB(BB(BB(x+G)))) be useful? :P 20:36:38 my proposal for one would be the xor of two halting probabilities 20:36:42 welp, derp 20:36:47 eg one for blc with one for bf 20:36:58 or no, it works fine, mine, that is 20:37:04 thought I realized a mistake 20:37:35 but that seems unusable to me 20:37:40 that's well defined and almost certainly uncomputable and useless:) 20:37:51 :D 20:38:53 hmm 20:38:53 alternatively you could take the halting probability of the universal BLC machine equipped with a halting oracle 20:38:59 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 20:39:15 it's not immediately obvious how to prove my function is uncomputable 20:39:35 ie. the next level halting prob 20:40:02 so, basically, making unusable uncomputable functions by increasing the uncomputability 20:40:02 :D 20:40:29 actually 20:40:34 I don't think yours would work 20:40:40 yes, that's why i objected to calling such things easy 20:41:21 well, it's easy because it can be faked 20:41:31 well, it can't 20:41:38 well, the hard ones can 20:42:07 so the hard easy problems are easy because they are fakable; the easy easy problems are easy because they are easier than halting 20:42:37 but couldn't one compute ordinary halting probability from BLC+HO halting probability? 20:42:41 I get the feeling my ISP is making my internet connection slower after 10 o'clock 20:43:31 muuuuuuch slower 20:43:38 "yay" 20:43:40 Do some experiments with downloading big things over the 10 o'clock mark and observing the download speed? 20:43:54 no, tailcalled, you cannot simulate the oracle BLC computations that accumulate to that HO haltingprobability 20:44:05 Or alternatively read the user agreement for the ISP 20:44:08 mroman_: you think it's deliberate, and not just that demand increases a lot? 20:44:23 kmc: Don't know. 20:44:25 tromp_: but the halting probability is essentially the halting sequence 20:44:32 It's just that streaming movies is impossible after 10 o'clock 20:44:44 in the most compressed form 20:44:52 tromp_: and there is a computable function that assigns LC terms to OBLC terms, right? 20:45:20 with equivalent behaviour 20:45:49 the oracle could be a negative de bruijn index 20:46:31 or an extra argument 20:46:36 sure 20:46:49 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:46:55 but you could always take a normal LC term and convert it to an OBLC term by ignoring the oracle 20:47:12 sure; they're identical in the first case 20:47:12 and the halting probability let's you check if a program halts, correct? 20:47:27 yes 20:47:56 so let |x| denote the conversion of LC to OBLC, HOBLC the halting function for OBLC 20:48:06 HLC(x) = HOBLC(|x|) 20:48:18 where HLC is halting function for lambda calculus 20:48:47 :/ 20:49:00 idea 20:49:10 what if one took the busy beaver sequence 20:49:20 but only makes it explorable in a limited way 20:49:29 so essentially 20:49:37 there's a counter C 20:50:03 and a command B(x) which increments C and takes the xth bit of the Cth busy beaver number 20:50:08 yes, for halting functions, the HO case subsumes the plain case 20:50:17 but not for halting probabilities 20:50:49 so a BLC machine can extract the halting sequence from the halting probability 20:50:52 didn't you agree that halting probabilities could be used to find the halting problem? 20:50:56 *function 20:51:15 but you need an OBLC to do the same for oracle halting prob 20:51:21 you... do? 20:51:42 it's this halting prob. we're talking about, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_probability 20:51:53 yes, since it involves doing infinitely many simulations accumulating probabilities 20:52:30 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:52:42 It's not fast enough to stream 40m of film in 40m 20:52:44 you should read Chaitin's papers on why Omega is "the number of wisdom" 20:52:57 wait, how are you able to observe the halting probability? arbitrary approximation? bit-indexing? what is it? 20:53:09 if it takes longer than n minutes to download n minutes of film you can't stream it 20:53:17 that's sorta the streaming lemma 20:53:29 actually, you can 20:53:38 for example, if it takes n minutes + 1 second 20:53:40 it can be your input stream, or an oracle stream of bits 20:53:45 you could download a tiny bit 20:54:13 you can define machine to compute from infinite input to infinite output 20:54:18 and the distance between the part you've dl'ed to and the part you've watched to might not reach zero before the film is over 20:54:31 tailcalled: I know 20:54:48 tromp_: but in that case 20:54:58 but currently it looks like it's 1.5*n 20:55:05 tromp_: the halting probability is represented as a bit-sequence 20:55:17 yes, it is 20:55:38 i computed the first 4 bits for blc halting prob 20:55:41 tromp_: and by the definition of how the halting probability is, the 1 bits are exactly where the codes for machines that halt are 20:55:51 no:( 20:56:11 tromp_: yes they are? 20:56:22 oh 20:56:23 wait 20:56:26 I see 20:56:29 a halting program of length k contributes 2^-k to the halting prob 20:56:37 I didn't see the length part 20:56:39 dero 20:56:40 *derp 20:57:00 whereas in the halting seq it would be some bit at index roughly 2^k 20:57:35 anyway, how about my alternative? 20:57:46 so halting prob is exponentially more dense than halting sequence 20:58:03 :O I just had the best idea ever 20:58:04 what alternative? 20:58:07 no, wait 20:58:11 ._. 20:58:17 anyway, my alternative 20:58:25 there is an internal counter C 20:58:44 and an operation B(x) which increments C and returns the xth bit of the Cth busy beaver number 20:58:58 no way to reduce the value of C or anything 21:00:10 a little complex 21:00:25 how about every other bit of blc halting prob? 21:00:36 -!- nooodl has joined. 21:00:40 that's well defined and uncomputable 21:00:47 and most certainly useless 21:01:42 meh 21:01:43 anyway , i shld get back to do some work:( 21:02:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:02:46 I graphed how my project is doing at keeping up with Rust language changes: http://people.mozilla.org/~mbrubeck/servo-rust-updates.svg 21:03:15 > cycle [] 21:03:16 *Exception: Prelude.cycle: empty list 21:03:27 ( cycle [] 21:03:27 (input):1:7:When elaborating argument xs to function Prelude.Stream.cycle: 21:03:28 Can't unify 21:03:28 Vect 0 a 21:03:28 with 21:03:28 Vect (S n) a↵… 21:03:40 woooo dependent types 21:03:54 > take 0 (cycle []) 21:03:56 [] 21:04:01 > take 0 undefined 21:04:03 [] 21:04:14 > fix (take 0) 21:04:15 [] 21:04:16 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:04:34 oh right take 0 is just const [] 21:05:48 ( \a,xs:List a => take 0 xs 21:05:48 \a => \xs => [] : (a : Type) -> List a -> List a 21:13:19 [wiki] [[One]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39510 * Tailcalled * (+1394) Created page with "One is a language invented by Tailcalled. It is an uncomputable extension to a Brainfuck dialect, but it is designed to not be significantly more powerful than ordinary Brainf..." 21:13:33 I made a thing :D 21:14:20 and yes, I made an instruction that I named Instruction, because I can 21:15:14 what does I do on negative input? 21:16:00 [wiki] [[One]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39511&oldid=39510 * Tailcalled * (+89) 21:16:08 explained 21:16:40 you need to give an example of its usde 21:16:55 uhm 21:16:59 what is the output on the first call with x=0? 21:17:14 how exactly is BB defined? 21:17:19 whoops, maybe I should have defined busy beaver more clearly 21:17:53 I always forget that BB is somewhat ambiguous :/ 21:18:18 also , this requires you to nail down every other detail 21:20:04 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Rand.Next() <- since PRNGs are actually deterministic it should at least be possible to calculate a seed so that it constructs a given brainfuck program 21:20:45 however, that sadly doesn't answer if such a seed even exists 21:21:52 the seed will need to be at least as big as the program?! 21:22:13 not necessarily? 21:22:20 well, on avg 21:22:38 It could happen that the seed 0 will produce the cat program 21:23:31 nad your next 10 coin tosses cld be all tails. still on avg that will take 2^10 tries:) 21:23:36 `coins 21:23:37 ​birdcoin tabllinecoin dutackethaxcoin fukcoin fitcoin clecoin bubtlecoin dularcoin convercoin factioncoin trecoin suonymcoin eoncoin deltmachialigsetticoin smilectcoin juxtapcoin scenscrcoin bicscoin dreimaccoin sandcoin 21:24:02 whoa, that wrapped perfectly on my screen 21:24:03 tromp_: true 21:24:11 That's the beauty about statistics 21:24:13 shachaf: did you see my Rust-graph? 21:24:33 If somebody says your coin was manipulated after producing 1 Mio. times tails in a row 21:24:37 did we have any duplicates from `coin so far? 21:24:40 you can still say "nope. I didn't." 21:24:56 int-e: yes, I saw dupcoin twice 21:25:01 and he'll never prove for sure that you manipulated it 21:25:07 [wiki] [[One]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39512&oldid=39511 * Tailcalled * (+927) 21:25:08 kmc: yes 21:25:37 [wiki] [[One]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39513&oldid=39512 * Tailcalled * (+0) /* Busy Beaver */ mixed up in and out 21:26:14 however 21:26:17 seems better now? 21:26:20 since PRNGs aren't really random 21:26:28 nobody cares about absolute proof. 21:26:34 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:26:37 actually there are quite a few duplicates 21:26:39 you might be able to prove that no number shows up more than twice in a row 21:28:20 any more questions about One before I go to bed? 21:28:49 elliott: was that directed to me? 21:29:27 You can calculate how much you have to throw a die to prove with k% certainty that it was manipulated 21:29:42 and assuming you cut somebodys hand off if he uses a manipulated die 21:29:46 yeah. 21:29:52 how big must k be for society to live with it? 21:31:00 bifurcoin 21:31:59 -!- atriq has joined. 21:32:07 fornicoin 21:32:10 -!- tailcalled has quit. 21:32:44 @ask oerjan How do I, as an Englishman, go about pronouncing "Tromsø"? 21:32:44 Consider it noted. 21:32:47 mroman_: 7.18 21:33:20 [wiki] [[One]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39514&oldid=39513 * Tailcalled * (+68) 21:33:27 elliott: that's pretty low 21:33:29 but ok... 21:33:42 mroman_: 92.111111114 21:33:46 the other question is whether k can be lower for less severe punishments 21:34:04 atriq: Probably you should aim for the way that Norwegians pronounce it. 21:34:08 also weren't you dutch 21:34:10 > 1/0.0788 21:34:11 12.69035532994924 21:34:17 > 1/0.0718 21:34:19 13.927576601671309 21:34:26 Emoticoin? Bacoin? Silicoin? :-) 21:34:27 shachaf: I'm only dutch etymologically and genealogically speaking 21:34:37 Culturally and linguistically, I'm Bristish 21:34:47 coin-cidences 21:37:17 Is there crypthography based on the halting problem by any chance? 21:37:38 not that I'm aware of 21:37:41 it would probably be hard to implement 21:38:13 -!- atriq has quit. 21:46:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:53:27 :t hex 21:53:28 (Choice p, Applicative f, Integral a) => p a (f a) -> p String (f String) 21:53:42 @messages- 21:53:43 atriq asked 20m 58s ago: How do I, as an Englishman, go about pronouncing "Tromsø"? 21:54:00 Taneb: badly hth 21:55:15 google translate isn't too bad but i think the ø is a little to weak 21:56:35 * oerjan clicks the english pronunciation, which sounds about as close as he'd expect an english-speaker to be able to get it 21:58:19 if i put a hyphen (Troms-ø), then the norwegian pronunciation gets the ø about right put has the wrong pitch accent on the word as a whole 21:58:54 did you try putting in an INVISIBLE STRENGTH instead 21:59:32 nope 21:59:43 `unicode INVISIBLE STRENGTH 21:59:44 No output. 21:59:57 very invisible 22:00:38 @tell Taneb Read the logs. 22:00:38 Consider it noted. 22:06:35 or should it just be "happy hectomegasecond" <-- i'm pretty sure SI prefixes don't combine. 22:13:46 boo 22:13:53 -!- augur has joined. 22:24:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:39:28 -!- boily has joined. 22:50:11 :t fix (take 0) 22:50:12 [a] 22:50:22 fancy 22:50:44 :t fix (drop 0) 22:50:45 [a] 22:51:50 take 0 is like \_ -> [] :: [a] -> [a] right 22:51:52 @eval 22:52:02 -!- metasepia has joined. 22:52:13 @eval fix (take 0) 123 22:52:18 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 22:52:23 ~eval fix (take 0) 123 22:52:23 Error (127): 22:52:25 ... 22:52:34 ~metar ENVA 22:52:34 ENVA 132220Z 35010KT 9999 BKN044 05/M04 Q1018 RMK WIND 670FT 01015KT 22:53:20 boily: fix (take 0) is not a function hth 22:53:27 > fix (take 0) 22:53:28 [] 22:53:36 oh, it's actually not bottom 22:53:43 for once 22:53:47 > fix (drop 0) 22:53:51 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 22:53:55 worst 22:54:09 my Haskell is borken. too much Java in my world. 22:54:29 oerjan: Montréal is now warm! (and humid too) 22:54:34 ~metar CYUL 22:54:34 CYUL 132240Z 11007KT 30SM FEW055 OVC075 18/09 A3012 RMK SC2AC6 SLP201 DENSITY ALT 200FT 22:54:39 boily: you need to go on a profunctor pilgrimage twh 22:55:18 I long for the day where we'll push Java 8. a meager consolation, but progress towards the Great Functional Unification! 22:55:47 I still agree about the Pilgrimage. that'd do me much good. 22:56:45 santiago de composition 22:58:59 apparently, Jacob, James and Jacques are all related. 23:00:11 so are Ørjan, Jürgen and George 23:01:27 surprising. 23:01:38 Ivan, John and Hans. 23:02:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:03:21 that one I know because of my girlfriend's surname. 23:03:23 i probably still have in storage the old baby names book with pictures of trees of big name families 23:05:22 oerjan, hmm 23:05:36 oerjan, are there many fish and chip shops in Norway? 23:05:53 not to my knowledge. 23:07:51 there aren't really as many fish shops as there ought to be, with or without chips 23:08:25 -!- augur has joined. 23:08:30 . o O ( hm. a fish'n'chip poutine. I should try to make that one time... ) 23:08:59 boily, how many fish and chop shops are there in Canadia? 23:09:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:09:17 late night fast food is mainly kebab and burgers these days. maybe some sausages, if i'm to believe norway's main relevant comic. 23:11:12 does norway have the innovation of 99¢ Fresh Pizza 23:11:14 Taneb: eh... not that much, at least here. 23:11:47 kmc: except for the price, probably. i used to buy pizza slices at the bunnpris chain when i was at university. 23:11:52 Taneb: there's the http://www.britandchips.com/ 23:11:53 There's two between me and the city wall 23:12:20 i think they were 30 nok or so 23:12:31 99¢ Fresh Pizza is a thing in New York, and it's pretty distinct from the standard NYC pizza experience, which is like $2 or $3 a slice 23:12:49 (back in 1998 or so) 23:14:16 looks like that was about $4 then 23:14:33 norwegian grocery is based on the strange combination of heavily advertising "low" prices and customers mainly refusing to buy cheap non-name brands 23:15:08 NOK/USD experienced quite a drop from July '08 to December '08 23:15:11 but so did many things. 23:16:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:16:17 well yeah norway has been mostly an oasis against the crisis 23:16:36 so at some points investors hoarded NOKs 23:17:09 "Currently as of 2014, support for Swedish membership of the euro among the general population is low. In September 2013, support fell as low as 9%" 23:18:30 boily: i have a vague recall of my dad once making a fish pizza, back in the 80s. and possibly a brunost one, which is even more insane. 23:19:39 brunost. I don't know why, but that word inspires me uncharacteristicly high amounts of dread. 23:20:03 boily: i can see you have a well-developed intuition. 23:20:35 (actually i like it in moderate amounts, but then i'm a norwegian. but it does _not_ go well with pizza.) 23:21:06 kmc: we have http://www.pizzapizza.ca/ and http://www.doublepizza.net/. 23:21:15 also, for an even higher level of dread, gammalost. 23:21:42 (i'll eat that too. i think. it's been a while.) 23:22:20 “pungent traditional”. I'm... probably going to have a bite of it if I ever get the chance of, but anything can happen. 23:23:12 I'm almost tempted to switch to Firefox 23:23:31 make sure you spend some time on consideration of important life decisions like that sgeo 23:24:36 FIREFOX IS THE BESTEST! ANYONE WHO DISAGREE ARE VILE CHROME USERS! 23:24:37 Sgeo 23:24:48 I'd gladly float back and forth between browsers if everything stayed synced 23:25:03 look, i know you're having a rough time with your browser choices, but remember, you can talk to us 23:25:14 don't rush headlong into a decision that might affect you for the rest of your life 23:27:06 yeah look at me, stuck with IE 23:27:42 Sgeo, you know you want firefox. it's good for you, and it'll make you feel right. 23:30:16 Sgeo: clearly the right thing to do is to have an automatic script to change between browsers until your configuration reaches a periodic point. that way you'll always be synced! 23:31:28 but what if Sgeo uses a chaotic map? 23:32:02 impossible with finite memory hth 23:32:39 i'm sure a realistic setup will converge _long_ before black holes start evaporating. 23:32:56 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:44:02 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 23:46:57 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:47:39 I don't particularly want a large chain of "These bookmarks came from Chrome: These bookmarks came from Firefox: These bookmarks came from Chrome: These bookmarks came from Firefox: ..." 23:48:52 this is clearly what cyclic directory hard links were made for hth 23:50:45 > fix ("These bookmarks came from Chrome: These bookmarks came from Firefox: "++) 23:50:46 "These bookmarks came from Chrome: These bookmarks came from Firefox: These ... 23:51:16 kmc: cyclewh 23:52:00 i'm still pleased about fix (take 0) 23:52:23 it's also the greatest fixed point! 23:53:20 heh 23:53:58 :t fix (take 0) 23:53:59 [a] 23:54:46 good fixed point 23:55:14 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:55:22 [] isn't the least fixed point, is it? 23:59:17 :t take 0 23:59:18 [a] -> [a] 23:59:32 -!- tromp has joined.