←2014-05-09 2014-05-10 2014-05-11→ ↑2014 ↑all
00:06:13 <zzo38> Nobody on #sqlite channel knows how to answer my question how to fix it so that, it is possible to use savepoint inside of a INSTEAD OF trigger program and to rename views and other stuff.
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00:21:22 <zzo38> I am typing in session 51 of Dungeons&Dragons game, for now.
00:22:46 <Taneb> In the D&D game I am playing the entire party of 5 people is completely split
00:23:04 <zzo38> That is certainly possible, and sometimes very useful.
00:23:04 <Taneb> Two of us, including my character, have been arrested
00:23:11 <zzo38> For what?
00:23:32 <Taneb> Possession of some sort of superweapon
00:23:52 <Taneb> And antagonizing an empire
00:24:37 <zzo38> My character once did get arrested...on purpose.
00:26:03 <Taneb> This was very much not on purpose
00:26:21 <zzo38> (I knew I would be let out in time, and there were other reasons and things too, including the phase of the moon.)
00:26:33 <Taneb> It was quite surprising that 3 of the party managed to get away
00:26:41 <zzo38> When playing at D&D, you have to take advantage of the phase of the moon.
00:27:03 <Taneb> One by pretending to be blind and so harmless (his character is actually blind but it isn't a hindrance)
00:27:28 <Taneb> One by using a carpet as a moving wall to shelter himself from arrows
00:28:07 <Taneb> And one by teleporting through a very small hole in the ceiling onto the roof
00:31:03 <Taneb> zzo38, any advice for getting out of jail in D&D?
00:31:07 <zzo38> I have once managed to escape by replacing a door with its mirror image, stealing a wizard's wand, secretly giving it back to him, and stuff...
00:31:21 <zzo38> Taneb: I cannot say, since it depends a lot on the exact circumstances.
00:31:46 <Taneb> I'll have to figure it out myself
00:32:12 <Taneb> I don't think the rest of the party will rescue me (it would be out of character for them)
00:32:15 <zzo38> You may just have to wait; even if you can do other things, sometimes that is the best way anyways.
00:33:07 <Taneb> I've got the impression that if I wait I will eventually be executed or at least skinned alive
00:33:17 <Taneb> Neither of which are ideal
00:33:22 <zzo38> Then don't wait too much!
00:33:35 <Taneb> I think my best bet will be to talk my way out
00:33:37 <zzo38> Do you have the way to write letters?
00:33:46 <zzo38> The pen is mightier than a sword, so use a pen!
00:33:57 <Taneb> :D
00:34:03 <Taneb> That may be the best option
00:34:10 <Taneb> My character does have quite high charisma
00:34:32 <zzo38> (That's what I did; not to get out of jail though, but to convince someone to do something while I was in jail.)
00:36:56 <zzo38> High charisma is not enough. You also need a paper to write on!
00:37:27 <Taneb> Yeah, that may be an issue
00:37:39 <Taneb> I will also need some form of writing implement
00:38:26 <zzo38> At one point, I wanted to tell something to someone in a house which I did not want to go near, and I had no pen or paper, but I did have a book, so I searched the book for a phrase similar enough to what I wanted to say, tore it out, tied it to a rock, and threw it through the window.
00:38:52 <zzo38> Of course, if nothing else works, try using magic if you have any.
00:42:57 <nooodl> static int bogo_comp( const void *a, const void *b ) { return rand() % 3 - 1; }
00:43:00 <nooodl> qsort( deck, n_cards, sizeof(int), bogo_comp );
00:43:08 <nooodl> cute
00:44:38 <zzo38> nooodl: Is that like "ORDER BY RANDOM()" in a SQL program?
00:45:13 <nooodl> it might be! depending on the sort ORDER BY performs
00:45:27 <nooodl> i don't think this is a veeery good shuffle though
00:47:50 <zzo38> I think ORDER BY will perform the same sort as if the value specified is an extra column of the table, then sort by that fake extra column.
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00:53:03 <edwardk> oerjan: answered
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01:34:29 <Sgeo> Grr why doesn't Pharo come with Symbol>>asBlock?
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01:39:22 <fowl> thats a ruby hack
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01:53:19 <kmc> is it UB to give qsort a comparison function that isn't a total order
01:54:34 <Bike> shouldn't it only have to be partial?
01:54:35 <kmc> rust has separate Eq and TotalEq, Ord and TotalOrd
01:54:41 <kmc> and much controversy over where floats fit into this
01:54:44 <Bike> is there PreOrd
01:54:46 <kmc> no
01:54:55 <Bike> well what's the fucking point them
01:54:57 <Bike> then
01:55:02 <Bike> i need a whole hierarchy of ordinals!
01:56:38 <Jafet> Probably no less defined than rand is
01:57:05 <kmc> hm, do normal sorting algorithms work with partial orders?
01:57:18 <Jafet> "work"
01:57:36 <Jafet> Most of them will do something and then terminate
01:57:43 <kmc> wow
01:57:54 <kmc> such turing machine, very halting
01:58:03 <Bike> informative helpful answer a++
01:58:22 <zzo38> kmc: Actually, there is case where I would find such a thing helpful, to use sorting with partial ordering.
01:59:40 <Sgeo> What's PreOrd?
02:00:44 <kmc> are partial orders the same thing as transitive DAGs?
02:01:12 <zzo38> Partial orders are same thing as a thin category.
02:01:57 <Bike> Sgeo: a preorder.
02:03:42 <zzo38> Is there a thing such as logic without free variables?
02:03:55 <zzo38> I believe I can figure out how to do it.
02:05:15 <Bike> combinatory?
02:08:05 <zzo38> What do you mean by that?
02:11:36 * Sgeo wonders how PetitParser compares to Parsec
02:12:03 <Sgeo> I vaguely recall something saying that PetitParser includes parser combinators, but also has something that avoids some pitfall?
02:12:22 <Sgeo> "Instead it uses a unique combination of four alternative parser methodologies: scannerless parsers, parser combinators, parsing expression grammars and packrat parsers."
02:13:26 <zzo38> I know about recursive descent parsers
02:13:30 <zzo38> I don't know what is packrat parsers
02:14:39 <zzo38> Wikipedia article about "packrat parser" redirected to "parsing expression grammar".
02:16:16 <kmc> fungot parser
02:16:16 <fungot> kmc: bzip2 is slow, of course.
02:16:21 <kmc> fungot: of course.
02:16:22 <fungot> kmc: the cable doesn't bother me. lisp is shorter. people usually call " porting" gambit's web server? :) i'm implementing the cursors inside these structures partially with the postgresql c library. however, major dissidence isn't usually likely to be overtly malicious than to ddos :)
02:16:31 <kmc> ^style
02:16:32 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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02:24:02 <Bike> zzo38: i mean that the idea behind combinatory logic was "hey can we do lambda calculus w/o variables"
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02:24:47 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, I can see that, but it isn't what I meant.
02:25:31 <zzo38> I mean that you still have variables, but only quantified variables.
02:27:32 <Bike> isn't that the norm
02:27:46 <zzo38> The Wikipedia article about sequent calculus mentions the restrictions on the use of free and quantified variables; this can be avoided by not having any free variables.
02:29:39 <zzo38> The "forall R" and "exist L" rules would be changed, by instead of a free variable "y" made up above the line, it would make up a unique "free atom", which is one not allow to use anywhere else; each usage of the rule makes up a new one and it isn't an atom mentioned elsewhere in the sequent above the line.
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03:44:08 <zzo38> A lot of people don't believe me that in SQL, savepoints would be much more useful if allowed inside of a trigger program.
03:46:04 <Sgeo> Fuck continuation-based web development
03:46:32 <zzo38> Sgeo: What?
03:46:59 <Sgeo> This site is practically unusable: http://bugs.pharo.org/
03:47:28 <Sgeo> Try navigating to a bug, then figuring out how to share a link with a friend
03:49:00 <zzo38> That is terrible
03:49:14 <Bike> http://bugs.pharo.org/issues/register/id/2058?_k=t5FQ1yAmItNRJSof let's see
03:49:55 <Sgeo> Bike: open that in an incognito window
03:50:02 <fowl> http://bugs.pharo.org/issues/register/id/7627?_k=LAzNiBTJSnR_WP0l
03:50:08 <fowl> oo werid
03:51:59 <zzo38> That is not the point of URLs and if you do not want URL of each file, don't use a webpage at all and just make a telnet or whatever.
03:58:35 <pikhq> How do you mess up a bug tracker that badly?
03:59:28 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> That is not the point of URLs and if you do not want URL of each file, don't use a webpage at all and just make a telnet or whatever.
03:59:29 <HackEgo> 1194) <zzo38> That is not the point of URLs and if you do not want URL of each file, don't use a webpage at all and just make a telnet or whatever.
04:00:26 <Sgeo> pikhq: it's an anonymous frontend to a login-required bug tracker
04:04:58 <zzo38> Sgeo: What is the point of that?
04:05:20 <Sgeo> Of the horrible URLs, or of the site?
04:05:28 <Sgeo> It's good to not need to login to view bugs
04:05:29 <zzo38> Of an anonymous frontend to a login-required bug tracker.
04:05:52 <zzo38> In the way that that one is done.
04:07:04 <Sgeo> Pretty sure the use case is independent from the poor implementation choice
04:07:06 <Sgeo> I blame Seaside
04:07:51 <Sgeo> I think continuations have their uses in web development, but... not for this. Maybe during checking something out from an ecommerce site, or a password reset flow (although with the latter, need to be sure some idiot doesn't send the URL to a friend)
04:07:57 <Sgeo> (well, with both)
04:08:24 <zzo38> I think such thing is just all wrong.
04:09:54 <Sgeo> I assume this is not as terrible even though it's similar in development style
04:09:55 <Sgeo> http://www.impredicative.com/ur/demo/counter.html
04:09:59 <Sgeo> The URLs are much cleaner somehow
04:10:04 <Sgeo> But also easy to tamper with
04:10:08 <zzo38> Don't use webpages if you don't want their kind of state transactions; use them for non-interactive sessions instead. Interactive stuff can be including IRC, telnet, SSH, etc (and even block-oriented terminals, if necessary)
04:10:37 <Sgeo> http://www.impredicative.com/ur/demo/Demo/Counter/main
04:11:12 <zzo38> You can use an entirely stateless stuff if you need to, as well, which saves a lot of problem, too.
04:11:24 <zzo38> You don't need any cookie either, then.
04:11:31 <Sgeo> zzo38: sadly, users expect websites
04:11:49 <zzo38> You can make websites with stateless stuff too though
04:12:34 <Sgeo> Resetting a password seems tricky to do without some sort of state, unless you like messing with encryption
04:13:03 <Sgeo> hmm, bad example, I'm only really familiar with one example of a reset password flow
04:13:09 <zzo38> As far as I could see password reset usually used email though?
04:13:37 <Sgeo> zzo38: a reset password flow where first you answer questions or whatever before being allowed to send the email
04:13:42 <Sgeo> hypothetically
04:14:08 <zzo38> Sgeo: That isn't a problem either; you have HTML forms for that!
04:14:38 <Sgeo> How about logging into a website?
04:14:55 <zzo38> There is HTTP authentication.
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04:15:33 <zzo38> (Of course it isn't as secure as SSH, even if HTTPS is used)
04:21:46 <zzo38> And when you don't require these kind of things, you need no HTML, HTTP, SSH, SMTP, or whatever else; the gopher protocol is really simple and all stateless; there is no cookie or anything like that. Also, you don't have to make a separate "mobile version", or make other considerations about the user interface and so on;
04:22:18 <Bike> ide/theory: avoid having state by avoiding passwords by avoiding having information to secure
04:22:45 <zzo38> it works just as well with a keyboard, mouse, touch-screen, various sizes, hardcopy terminal, fax, punched cards, postal mail, or whatever else; without having to change anything.
04:23:00 <shachaf> wouldn't gopher be slower with postal mail
04:23:40 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes it would certainly be slower with postal mail, but that isn't the point at all.
04:24:11 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, in cases where you don't need a password, where you can do without a password and that stuff, it can.
04:25:00 <Bike> addendum: never need a password
04:26:39 <zzo38> When you do need a secure system, there are several ways. For example, require login over SSH. Or, you can encrypt the files and download it, and whoever has the password can use a decryption software to access it.
04:26:55 <Bike> whoa whoa whoa, didn't i just explain. don't need a secure system
04:27:23 <zzo38> If you don't need a secure system, then that is easy: ignore all of that stuff, and make more simplicity.
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04:31:11 <Bike> also fun security fact, my job's secure login works over https, but also has an http address. it asks for credentials and takes them but then presents nothing if you use it
04:31:14 <Bike> v. secure
04:32:52 <kmc> it's really negligent to run a plaintext HTTP server that serves anything other than a redirect with an HSTS header
04:32:55 <kmc> to HTTPS
04:33:15 <Bike> i assume letting me enter my password over http is also bad
04:33:31 <kmc> yes
04:33:50 <Bike> thankfully, i'm the type of person who'd give up their password for a chocolate bar, so there's no net lowering of security in my using this system
04:34:17 <kmc> if you serve any part of your domain at all over plain HTTP -- even the boringest static terms of service page -- then an active attacker has arbitrary code execution for that whole subdomain and can substantially mess with the entire domain
04:34:33 <Bike> i'd ask them to fix it, but it took like three days with IT to get on in the first place so i'm not gonna bother
04:34:35 <kmc> a lot of web developers don't know this
04:34:44 <Bike> arbitrary, huh.
04:34:55 <kmc> yep, they can inject arbitrary javascript
04:35:17 <kmc> which has permission to read cookies for that domain, mess with same-origin windows, make same-origin requests etc
04:35:23 <zzo38> That is also a problem with HTTP and HTML in general. Even if you do use entirely HTTPS!
04:35:29 <Sgeo> kmc: can't read every cookie
04:35:34 <kmc> that's right Sgeo
04:35:40 <zzo38> Use SSH for secure login interactive sessions, and work much better.
04:35:45 <kmc> HttpOnly cookies are a weak protection though
04:35:56 <kmc> you can still make requests that will include that cookie
04:36:09 <shachaf> i imagine Sgeo meant Secure cookies
04:36:10 <kmc> it doesn't really matter because if you can inject JS then you can also sniff the cookie off the wire
04:36:18 <Bike> nice, the instructions have how to do it on XP
04:36:37 <Bike> "Because we use a newer file storage system at the College of Veterinary Medicine, older Mac operating systems cannot access Vetmed files. You will need Mac OS 10.6 (Snow Leopard) or software that allows for Mac-Windows interoperability, such as Thursby Software's Dave"
04:36:39 <kmc> in some cases you can overflow the cookie jar and replace the cookie with a non-Secure cookie on a broader domain
04:36:54 <Sgeo> kmc: as shachaf notes, can't read Secure HttpOnly cookies over the wire... but yeah, arbitrary requests to the real site
04:37:15 <shachaf> anyway, even just not serving anything over http isn't sufficient without something like hsts
04:37:34 <kmc> right
04:38:42 <kmc> unfortunately, as you probably already know, computer security
04:38:46 <zzo38> You can still serve plain files over HTTP, and forms and stuff which are simple enough, but there are generally better ways in any case already.
04:38:57 <Bike> like gopher
04:39:38 <shachaf> computer SCOWrity
04:39:42 <Bike> gophers
04:40:21 <zzo38> Remember that there are other protocols, and HTTP can be used to fall-back-on, perhaps.
04:40:38 <zzo38> (There are also better ways of using HTTP than all those terrible ways, too, though.)
04:42:06 <shachaf> the trouble with fallbacks and security is that they have to be as secure as the not fallbackthings
04:42:24 <zzo38> Post a warning message.
04:42:32 <Bike> it's fun going back and forth from homomorphic encryption or whatever to My Daily Life
04:42:33 <zzo38> Disable some features if needed.
04:43:33 <zzo38> Write a warning message on the webpage that says that it is "deprecated" and insecure, and that you are offered to better alternatives if possible.
04:44:01 <shachaf> that only helps if the user sees the web page
04:44:23 <zzo38> That is true, of course.
04:44:49 <shachaf> `quote zzo38.*reasonable
04:44:50 <HackEgo> 113) <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple
04:44:56 <zzo38> But otherwise, if it consists of nothing then the problem corrects itself (giving you another problem, if you didn't already fix that one).
04:59:07 <zzo38> `danddreclist 51
04:59:08 <HackEgo> danddreclist 51: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
05:02:00 <zzo38> There it is!
05:03:12 <zzo38> Do you like this latest Dungeons&Dragons game by now?
05:03:34 <Bike> you'll never shine if you don't glow
05:04:00 <zzo38> Yes
05:04:14 <zzo38> But I don't glow either.
05:05:22 <Bike> oh
05:13:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stacked Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39483&oldid=32424 * Killer64 * (+0) USing -> Using
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05:37:12 <coppro> someone familiar with category theory please confirm/deny: if F is a functor, the statement "F is injective on objects" is not preserved by natural isomorphism
05:38:54 <shachaf> sounds right to me
05:38:58 <kmc> motherfunctor
05:40:33 <shachaf> e.g. if you have a category C with two isomorphic objects and two functors F, G : C -> C where F is the identity and G maps both objects to the first one (and arrows to the identity)
05:42:08 <myname> there should be "category theory for dummies"
05:42:50 <Bike> @google "category theory for dummies"
05:42:50 <lambdabot> http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/jcheney/presentations/ct4d1.pdf
05:42:51 <lambdabot> Title: Category Theory for Dummies (I)
05:44:33 <myname> lol
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05:58:50 <zzo38> Don't be so idiotic and play a DEFENDER card if it would be to your opponent's advantage for you to do so.
06:03:17 <zzo38> I was trying to think of use of necessity modal operator in Haskell, for example, to make the type specify only top-level values can be used (one way to do it is a class), and so on, would that be something like that?
06:03:54 <shachaf> What's with the error message "the connection was reset"?
06:05:44 <shachaf> Why is it shown to users in web browsers? Why not "closed" or "disconnected" or "aborted" or something? Are people expected to understand what "reset" means?
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06:09:43 <Sprocklem> shachaf: Reset is a normal english word
06:09:56 <shachaf> Yes.
06:09:58 <Jafet> Are people expected to understand what "connection" means
06:10:15 <Sprocklem> Jafet: Also a normal english word
06:10:19 <shachaf> What does this use of it have to do with the normal English use?
06:12:05 <Sprocklem> shachaf: Reset or connection?
06:12:21 <shachaf> reset
06:13:26 <Sprocklem> It does fit, though I suppose you are correct in that closed would be better
06:13:36 <Jafet> @wn reset
06:13:38 <lambdabot> *** "reset" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
06:13:38 <lambdabot> reset
06:13:38 <lambdabot> n 1: device for resetting instruments or controls
06:13:38 <lambdabot> v 1: set anew; "They re-set the date on the clock"
06:13:38 <lambdabot> 2: set to zero; "reset instruments and dials"
06:13:40 <lambdabot> 3: adjust again after an initial failure [syn: {readjust},
06:13:42 <lambdabot> {reset}]
06:13:55 <Jafet> The connection was set anew
06:13:58 <Jafet> The connection was set to zero
06:14:05 <Jafet> The connection was adjusted again after an initial failure
06:15:45 <Jafet> @wn referer
06:15:46 <lambdabot> No match for "referer".
06:15:47 <Sprocklem> Jafet: You're right, it doesn't make sense
06:17:22 <Jafet> I suspect most people do not actually read any text once they see the chrome://global/skin/icons/warning-large.png
06:17:58 <Jafet> (Why a warning symbol is used for errors is another story)
06:20:31 <shachaf> "The webpage at chrome://global/skin/icons/warning-large.png might be temporarily down or it may have moved permanently to a new web address."
06:20:38 <shachaf> got me where i wanted anyway
06:20:44 <Sprocklem> shachaf: Browser?
06:20:54 <shachaf> chromium
06:21:03 <shachaf> v34
06:21:25 <Sprocklem> Ah
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06:28:59 <Sprocklem> password2: Why not password?
06:29:09 <password2> ********
06:30:08 <password2> because someone registered password
06:30:47 <Sprocklem> Is it actively used?
06:31:06 <password2> not as far as i know
06:33:42 <Sprocklem> Is there not a time period after which it becomes free?
06:33:59 <password2> dunno
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06:36:34 <password2> aparently password was used once this year
06:36:58 <password2> registered and used 15 weeks ago
06:37:52 <Jafet> Guess its password
06:38:01 <password2> heh
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07:55:48 <kmc> big beats are the best, get high all the time
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08:30:21 <mroman_> @tell Taneb http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D2-R1.pdf
08:30:21 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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08:57:00 <quintopia> oerjan: i finished norge. i brought a bottle of the linie aquavit but did not yet try it
08:57:41 <oerjan> excellent
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09:02:03 <ion> the Florida psychic Sheree Silver disassociated herself from the practice, telling the Sun-Sentinel, "I can't imagine anyone wasting their time and money on someone like this when there are so many legitimate psychics out there." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumpology
09:07:24 <mroman_> The irony?
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09:09:31 <mroman_> I wouldn't be interested in the future anyway unless I could change it
09:11:49 <ion> https://neocities.org/blog/the-fcc-is-now-rate-limited
09:20:23 <olsner> is the FCC doing a lot of surfing on neocities?
09:21:38 <ion> That isn’t really relevant.
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09:24:24 <oerjan> mroman_: the twist is that you _can_ change the future, but only if you don't know it hth
09:24:29 <mroman_> why does a democratic nation have a bureau responsible for censoring stuff?
09:24:48 <mroman_> oerjan: ic.
09:25:21 <mroman_> so once a physic tells me my future it is carved in stone
09:25:28 <mroman_> wouldn't that give them supernatural power?
09:26:20 <oerjan> well most psychics don't actually know the future just potentialities hth
09:26:55 <mroman_> Why did I optimize the implementation of my algorithm for my bachelor thesis :(
09:26:59 <mroman_> that was sort of a stupid move to do
09:27:17 <oerjan> mroman_: you mean now you have nothing to do for your masters?
09:27:22 <mroman_> No.
09:27:42 <mroman_> Now all my tons of measurements I did are obsolete.
09:28:05 <oerjan> shocking (huh.)
09:28:11 <mroman_> yeah
09:28:24 <mroman_> and it's the last week of the bachelor thesis more or less
09:28:31 <mroman_> I've already documented and discussed my findings
09:28:39 <mroman_> and suddenly now everything is obsolete
09:30:26 <oerjan> eek
09:31:31 <oerjan> do you mean someone beat you to it
09:31:47 * oerjan doesn't quite understand
09:32:07 <mroman_> oerjan: Well
09:32:17 <mroman_> You gotta write a bachelor thesis repot of around 50 pages
09:32:28 <mroman_> documenting your stuff, measurements and conclusions from the measurements
09:32:40 <mroman_> no, since I've optimized stuff like hell
09:33:00 <mroman_> all those conclusions are somewhat useless now
09:33:16 <mroman_> because I've got something better now that scales differently
09:33:26 <mroman_> *now,
09:33:36 <oerjan> ah so you beat _yourself_. tricky.
09:34:18 <mroman_> (also I'm pretty sure someone in the world already beats me anyway)
09:34:24 <mroman_> and I'm not doing a masters btw
09:34:25 <oerjan> yep, you clearly should have left that for the masters.
09:34:31 <oerjan> ah.
09:34:44 <mroman_> I'd want a master from a university
09:34:51 <mroman_> if any
09:34:55 <mroman_> not the master I could do here
09:35:03 <oerjan> this isn't a university? ok.
09:35:38 * oerjan has a hunch it'll be called Hochschule
09:35:38 <mroman_> Nope. It's not.
09:35:47 <mroman_> oerjan: it is
09:36:46 <oerjan> norway also has this sort of folkehøyskole system parallel and somewhat lower in status to the universities
09:37:53 <mroman_> yeah
09:38:00 <mroman_> they run under the slogan "different but equal" here
09:38:09 <oerjan> ah
09:38:11 <mroman_> well... according to the "real" universities we're not equal ;)
09:38:20 <mroman_> and according to Hochschule we're equal but different
09:38:28 <mroman_> pick your side ;)
09:38:47 <oerjan> YOU ARE BREAKING LEIBNITZ RULE YOU INFIDELS
09:38:59 <oerjan> *LEIBNI... er let me look it up
09:39:10 <mroman_> Leibnitz made a rule?
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09:40:41 <oerjan> *LEIBNIZ LAW
09:40:53 <oerjan> *LEIBNIZ'S LAW
09:41:12 <oerjan> he also made several rules. someone should clean up the wikipedia redirections.
09:44:42 <oerjan> basically, the law that equal stuff has all properties in common.
09:45:07 <oerjan> which you can also formulate as the formal logical scheme a = b => (P a <=> P b)
09:48:11 <mroman_> I'm always confused with lemma, theorem and laws
09:48:33 <mroman_> Do you say "law" when it's really a "definition/axiom"?
09:49:59 <oerjan> looking at the philosophical mess "Leibniz's law" redirects to on wikipedia, i think the point is that leibniz wasn't really thinking about formal logic.
09:50:09 <oerjan> (not looking too closely, mind you)
09:50:37 <oerjan> although the formal scheme gets to be called the same thing by analogy.
09:51:03 <oerjan> and could in principle be used as the definition of equality.
09:52:16 <oerjan> some theorem proving systems might, but i vaguely recall some don't for technical reasons (impredicative types possibly)
09:52:17 <mroman_> That'd be the best definition of equality I know.
09:52:28 <mroman_> and probably the only one :)
09:53:36 <mroman_> but I don't know any definitions for a < b that'd hold
09:53:55 <mroman_> n < (n+1) isn't really a good definition at all
09:54:18 <oerjan> well = is a general logical principle but < refers to a particular order on a set
09:54:49 <oerjan> for reals you can use a <= b iff b-a is a square.
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09:55:50 <mroman_> because squares can't be negative
09:55:51 <mroman_> ic.
09:56:34 <oerjan> for naturals you can use a <= b iff b-a exists at all
09:57:28 <oerjan> (if you say, "but it exists as a negative number", then i will note that the real version also breaks if you include complex numbers)
09:57:59 <mroman_> there are no negative natural numbers
09:58:03 <oerjan> yep
09:58:16 <oerjan> *right
09:58:24 <mroman_> Why would I say it exists as a negative number :D
09:58:54 <oerjan> you might be quarrelsome and stupid like people usually are in these discussions on the internet hth
09:59:13 <oerjan> (HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING)
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10:00:18 <mroman_> I've had some discrete mathematics. Not much, but enough to know that in certain thingies certain other thingies just don't exist :)
10:00:27 <mroman_> *Groups
10:00:29 <mroman_> and stuff
10:00:40 <mroman_> I only know the german words for these things
10:01:20 <oerjan> Gruppenringkörper
10:01:25 <mroman_> :)
10:02:53 <oerjan> for natural numbers, < as the transitive closure of n < (n+1) isn't that bad.
10:03:58 <oerjan> i recall that logicians / complexity theorists have investigated how much extra power you get from allowing transitive closure on an otherwise very weak logic
10:04:46 <Taneb> Good morning
10:04:51 <oerjan> (i say / complexity theorists because it turns out that the smallest complexity classes have a strong correspondence with logic)
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10:06:35 <oerjan> good morning Taneb
10:11:14 <Taneb> mroman_, could we add a justification of the decisions made for second normal form to ESOSC 2014 D2?
10:16:35 <mroman_> Sure.
10:16:57 <mroman_> oerjan: I'm doing crowd simulation as my bachelor thesis
10:17:16 <mroman_> or "distribute it to multiple machines" to be more specific.
10:17:19 <mroman_> and well
10:17:31 <mroman_> It simulates 200k people in 11x realtime
10:17:40 <mroman_> I'm pretty sure somebody out there can do it in 0.1x realtime
10:19:05 <mroman_> (11x on a single machine)
10:21:29 <mroman_> Taneb: It's because they are "nops"?
10:21:35 <mroman_> and ][ is abused for comments
10:21:49 <mroman_> or what kind of justification did you have in mind?
10:21:52 <Taneb> That
10:22:34 <mroman_> although [...][foo] isn't first normal form
10:22:45 <mroman_> You only could have comments using brainfuck commands that way ;)
10:24:11 <oerjan> making comments in a language where no character can be included if it can be proved never to be executed sounds awkward.
10:24:49 <mroman_> Taneb: +- isn't a nop if cells don't wrap-around
10:25:06 <mroman_> i.e 255+ => 255- => 254
10:25:17 <Taneb> And <> isn't a nop if cells are bounded on the left
10:25:22 <mroman_> true
10:26:21 <mroman_> so snf kinda assumes wrap-around
10:32:29 <Taneb> Is second normal form necessary? It's more like a linter than anything else
10:32:52 <mroman_> I don't see any benifit of having it
10:32:56 <mroman_> but someone suggested it
10:35:07 <mroman_> *benefit
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10:43:54 <mroman_> and judging by your question I assume it was nortti
10:46:13 <mroman_> We could remove it
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10:46:22 <mroman_> but then it wouldn't make sence to have a "first" normal form
10:46:43 <mroman_> unless we're going to add one 5 years later or so
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10:47:24 <mroman_> hm.
10:47:34 <mroman_> ][ shouldn't assume wrap-around of any kind
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10:58:51 <mroman_> http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D2-R2.pdf <- well. I removed it for now
10:58:55 <mroman_> Suggestions still welcome :)
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11:08:10 <Taneb> mroman_, "Brainfuck" in both times in paragraph two should have a small b
11:08:39 <Taneb> In fact, whenever it's not at the start of a sentence or a heading (or possibly in "Normalized Brainfuck"?)
11:09:00 <mroman_> I thought names are writting with a starting capital letter
11:09:03 <Taneb> And instead of "interpreters (or compilers)", why not "implementations"
11:09:09 <Taneb> Brainfuck is weird
11:09:22 <Taneb> Look at its readme, for example
11:09:32 <mroman_> yeah
11:09:35 <mroman_> small letter
11:11:08 <mroman_> *written
11:11:39 <mroman_> to ease interpretation of brainfuck programs
11:11:45 <mroman_> that's gotta change too
11:11:54 <mroman_> I think
11:12:00 <mroman_> since compilers usually don't interpret them :)
11:12:24 <mroman_> well
11:12:49 <mroman_> to ease reading/handling/parsing?
11:13:05 <Taneb> implementation?
11:13:33 <mroman_> to ease implementation of brainfuck programs?
11:13:47 <Taneb> Hmm, no
11:13:56 <Taneb> parsing would be best
11:13:59 <mroman_> to ease writing brainfuck implementations?
11:14:04 <Taneb> Or thatr
11:14:05 <mroman_> or developing
11:14:11 <Taneb> I've got to go now
11:14:15 <Taneb> Bye!
11:14:20 <mroman_> bye
11:19:07 <FireFly> I think interpretation works
11:19:23 <FireFly> or maybe "comprehension"
11:23:06 <nortti> mroman_: the one who suggested snf was b_jonas
11:26:36 <b_jonas> heh
11:27:58 <b_jonas> mroman_: 200k people? wow
11:28:06 <b_jonas> that's a lot!
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11:43:52 <oerjan> <kmc> if you serve any part of your domain at all over plain HTTP -- even the boringest static terms of service page -- then an active attacker has arbitrary code execution for that whole subdomain and can substantially mess with the entire domain
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11:46:15 <oerjan> technically you don't need to serve anything as http do you? the attacker just needs to fool someone into _trying_ to load http from your domain?
11:46:57 <oerjan> which admittedly is probably somewhat easier if you have actual http pages.
11:49:19 <FreeFull> ^
11:50:52 <mroman_> b_jonas: 197133 to be precise
11:59:46 <mroman_> It can run 25k in about 1.1x realtime
12:02:27 <oerjan> @tell password2 (1) 15 weeks is the max upper limit for nick expiration (2) that particular nick actually goes under the special "not used more than 2 hours after registration" rule so expired after only 2 weeks. iow you can ask for it to be released.
12:02:27 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:04:56 <nortti> does that mean that its use time is not 2h, or that is was only used before 2h had passed from registration?
12:05:11 <oerjan> the latter
12:05:45 <Jafet> It can't be used more than two hours before two hours after registration
12:06:16 * oerjan swats Jafet -----###
12:06:45 <oerjan> shaving ->
12:07:19 <Jafet> re https: if you live in a universe with compromised RAs -- even by the most bored iranian teenager -- it doesn't matter anyway
12:09:02 <Jafet> Some big websites even deliberately cycle multiple certificates, it's like they're asking for it
12:30:43 <mroman_> sadly I run out of memory with 1 Mio. people
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13:02:34 <mroman_> CSS3 can do shadows, right?
13:03:04 -!- Dameon21 has joined.
13:05:25 <mroman_> yeah....
13:05:37 <mroman_> but those browsers need some more of them anti-aliasing to make it look not terrible
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13:32:54 <Taneb> Aaaaah my sideburns are asymettric
13:33:53 <mroman_> Taneb: http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/
13:34:10 <mroman_> border-radius is kinda nice
13:34:16 <Taneb> :)
13:34:34 <Taneb> Could you hyperlink "#esoteric" to webchat?
13:35:00 <mroman_> webchat.freenode.net?
13:35:30 <mroman_> does that take an argument for channel?
13:35:35 <Taneb> http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=esoteric
13:36:29 <mroman_> k
13:36:30 <mroman_> *add*
13:36:50 <b_jonas> Taneb: https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.freenode.net/#esoteric
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13:37:16 <test> hm.
13:37:18 <test> works
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13:38:39 <oerjan> did we pass
13:41:36 <mroman_> pass what?
13:43:21 <nortti> the test?
13:43:34 <mroman_> sure
13:44:17 <oerjan> yay
13:45:53 <mroman_> hm
13:46:00 <mroman_> the ISO indeed makes money by selling pdfs
13:46:23 <olsner> Taneb: enjoy your lopsideburns
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13:47:35 <oerjan> burning lobsters
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13:53:58 <impomatic> burning lobsters?
14:10:00 <FireFly> mroman_: how many committees and subcommittees does ESOSC have?
14:11:18 <mroman_> none at the moment
14:12:42 <mroman_> would you like to be in one?
14:13:31 <impomatic> ESOSC? What's that?
14:13:52 <nortti> `? esosc
14:13:53 <HackEgo> esosc is esoteric song contest (also Esoteric Standard Committee)
14:13:55 <mroman_> impomatic: http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/
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14:18:29 <mroman_> I think the EsoAPI needs a revival
14:19:23 <nortti> maybe a version that isn't dependant on cell-based langs?
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14:21:13 <FireFly> A standardised, improved esoAPI would be neat
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14:22:07 <nortti> also, a file-based disk-io instead of sector-based would be neat
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14:54:18 <mroman_> Did the EsoAPI hook stdout/stdin?
14:55:18 <mroman_> looks like it
14:55:30 <mroman_> well
14:55:53 <mroman_> upcoming ESOSC-2014-D3 is EsoAPI Revised :)
14:58:45 <nortti> wasn't D3 brainfuck conventions?
14:59:08 <mroman_> yeah
14:59:14 <mroman_> D4
14:59:23 <mroman_> ESOSC-2014-D4: Esoteric System Interface (ESIX)
14:59:26 <mroman_> something like that
14:59:33 <elliott> mroman_: PSOX
14:59:49 <mroman_> PSOX?
14:59:52 <nortti> Pee-Socs?
14:59:57 <nortti> *Socks
15:00:05 <mroman_> Portable ...?
15:00:38 <mroman_> ah
15:00:55 <mroman_> PSOX from Sgeo
15:02:27 <fizzie> A guy from the IEEE Signal Processing Society Audio and Acoustic Signal Processing Technical Committee Challenges Subcommittee just said a few words.
15:03:12 <fizzie> (I'm at a workshop.)
15:05:36 <FireFly> That's what I'm saying, ESOSC needs more {,sub}committees
15:06:02 <FireFly> fizzie: did he present himself using that title?
15:06:18 <fizzie> (?:sub)*committee.
15:06:26 <fizzie> Almost.
15:06:46 <fizzie> (He wanted ideas.)
15:06:58 <mroman_> If you have an idea for a subcommittee and if you want to work in it just say so ;)
15:07:11 <mroman_> I'm btw. not really fond of APIs through stdin/stdout
15:07:31 <mroman_> except for that they are portable across languages and don't require any change in them
15:07:39 <mroman_> it looks kinda inconvenient
15:08:08 <mroman_> but PSOX looks kinda feature-rich
15:09:20 <FireFly> Hm
15:09:36 <FireFly> Wouldn't it be Esoteric Standard*s* Committee?
15:10:06 <int-e> FireFly: It's a good idea to start out small.
15:10:27 <FireFly> I guess you could call it the standard standards committee
15:11:20 <fizzie> Also weird: conference proceedings on an USB stick that pretends to be both a USB mass storage device and an external CD ROM drive.
15:11:45 <int-e> huh
15:11:48 <fizzie> I think the latter was read-only.
15:12:04 <int-e> that's fine but not very original
15:12:12 <int-e> iow, boring.
15:12:14 <FireFly> I can't think of any reason for the latter..
15:13:14 <int-e> FireFly: recall the floppy disks that had a notch that could be covered to make them read-only?
15:13:18 <fizzie> The "CD" had all the data and the stick was empty.
15:13:46 <FireFly> "the latter" as in pretending to be an external CD-ROM drive
15:14:06 <int-e> So that would be a sensible use for such a setup to me, hardware level write protection.
15:14:12 <fizzie> Maybe it autoruns better.
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15:14:41 <FireFly> I guess
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15:15:04 <int-e> Yeah. I've seen that, putting drivers on a USB "CD" drive.
15:15:15 <int-e> But what is that idea doing at a conference?!
15:17:19 <fizzie> I have a USB 3G/GPRS stick that has a built-in "driver CD", of course with hopelessly outdated drivers.
15:17:50 <ion> Huawei?
15:18:04 <fizzie> Yes.
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17:13:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rasen]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39484&oldid=39478 * Wolgr * (-42)
17:23:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rasen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39485&oldid=39484 * Wolgr * (-61)
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18:09:20 <mroman_> hm
18:09:35 <mroman_> It's hard to balance simplicity, compilability and mightibility
18:09:46 <mroman_> wordmakeupability
18:09:55 <Bike> i recommend bonghits
18:10:14 <mroman_> I'm trying to boostrap a self-hosting compiler
18:10:26 <mroman_> (with a language I'll invent)
18:10:48 <scoofy> the simpler the language, the easier to compile
18:10:53 <mroman_> exactly
18:10:55 <scoofy> the simpler the language, the harder to make a compiler
18:10:58 <mroman_> my last try even had a typesystem
18:11:05 <mroman_> no.
18:11:13 <mroman_> simpler language, simpler compiler *my opinion*
18:11:20 <mroman_> brainfuck's easy to compile
18:11:24 <scoofy> i mean...
18:11:26 <mroman_> but writing a brainfuck compiler in brainfuck
18:11:29 <mroman_> that's gonna be harder
18:11:30 <scoofy> the simpler the language, the harder to write a compiler in
18:11:36 <scoofy> that's what I meant
18:11:40 <kmc> write a brainfuck to brainfuck compiler in brainfuck
18:11:46 <mroman_> or a
18:11:50 <mroman_> compiler compiler
18:11:53 <mroman_> that produces brainfuck code
18:12:18 <tromp_> writing a blc interpreter in blc is straightforward though
18:12:32 <tromp_> because blc is much more expressive than brainfuck
18:12:48 <scoofy> that is, binary lambda calculus?
18:12:51 <tromp_> yes
18:13:03 <kmc> best lambda calculus
18:13:09 <Bike> bonghit lambda calculus
18:13:37 <tromp_> of course it can't be too hard given that it takes under 26 bytes
18:14:02 <scoofy> tromp_, i've seen your web page about it, looks very interesting. except i barely understand anything :/
18:14:25 <scoofy> i'd first need to learn and understand well lambda calculus
18:14:38 <tromp_> the wikipedia article should make a good introduction
18:14:47 <tromp_> then you can dive into my paper
18:15:29 <scoofy> i skimmed through it, what I like the most about it is the images. i find it fascinating to represent programs as graphs
18:15:52 <tromp_> yes, they're quite artistic
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18:16:40 <Bike> to mock a mockinggraph
18:17:00 -!- shikhin has joined.
18:17:08 <tromp_> i have a big print of the predecessor function adorning my office wall
18:17:29 <tromp_> easily mistaken for modern art
18:17:42 <kmc> link?
18:17:51 <tromp_> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/cl/diagrams.html
18:18:41 <kmc> ah nice
18:19:17 <Taneb> tromp_, I want
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18:21:27 <kmc> are these always unambiguous?
18:21:34 <tromp_> yes
18:21:49 <kmc> kewl
18:22:01 <tromp_> the haskell programs on my blc page create these images
18:22:07 <tromp_> in various formats
18:22:22 <tromp_> eg. png, ascii, ascii graphics...
18:22:38 <kmc> do you have an interpreter which takes an image as input
18:22:45 <tromp_> nope:(
18:23:13 <tromp_> the image is quadratic in the size of the term
18:23:29 <scoofy> i remember something about blc used in studying program complexity. is blc the most compact representation of an algorith?
18:23:54 <tromp_> that's impossible to formalize, scoofy
18:24:27 <tromp_> it certainly hits a sweet spot in simlicity and expressiveness
18:24:36 * Taneb --> Eurovision party
18:24:46 <scoofy> but your blc interpreter is the smallest turing-compatible self-impreter, iirc
18:24:53 <tromp_> and i haven't seen any competitive alternative
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18:25:21 <tromp_> it's the smallest "honest" one
18:25:36 <tromp_> but again that's hard to formalize
18:25:54 <scoofy> i wonder about its performance. is the blc interpreter fast enough to make it sensible to run complex programs in it?
18:25:59 <tromp_> many languages have primitives that vastly simply self interpretation
18:26:03 <tromp_> simplify
18:27:12 <tromp_> the interpreter introduces little overhead
18:27:29 <scoofy> nice
18:27:36 <tromp_> so it could be very fast depending on the underlying reduction engine
18:27:55 <scoofy> so, in theory, it could be used for program compression?
18:28:16 <scoofy> creating very small programs is an interesting field
18:28:19 <tromp_> what programs do you have in mind?
18:28:37 <tromp_> it's hard because blc has no data primitives
18:28:47 <tromp_> no numbers, no nothing
18:28:56 <tromp_> just function application
18:29:31 <tromp_> also (optimal) compression is uncomputale
18:30:17 <scoofy> so... how would one start writing a blc program?
18:30:23 <tromp_> creating small blc programs (like the 1267 bit prime sieve) is a huge challenge
18:30:40 <tromp_> i mean 167 bit
18:30:41 <Bike> presumably you can represent data same way as you do in good ol lambda calculus.
18:31:48 <tromp_> http://www.ioccc.org/2012/tromp/hint.html for some interesting sample programs
18:32:00 <scoofy> to me, writing blc looks like writing unlambda
18:32:18 <tromp_> the 8-bit self-interpreter represents bytes as length-8 lists of booleans
18:32:40 <tromp_> which is also used in the brainfuck interpreter
18:33:47 <tromp_> indeed blc is pure lambda calculus
18:33:56 <tromp_> with some binary IO conventions
18:36:05 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/XdQlMQwP <- so far I've come up with something like this now
18:36:44 <nortti> is the list stored as (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) or (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8) ?
18:37:30 <nortti> (assuming it uses \xyf.fxy to construct the list)
18:38:06 <tromp_> as b7:b6:b5:b4:b3:b2:b1:b0:nil
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18:38:38 <tromp_> where : is infix \xyf.fxy
18:39:25 <Bike> why the b's
18:39:49 <nortti> is nil False or the other possible nil?
18:39:54 <tromp_> bi is the i'th bit
18:40:13 <tromp_> yes, bil = false = \xy.y
18:40:25 <tromp_> i mean nil
18:40:38 <nortti> and b7 is the MSB?
18:40:43 <tromp_> b7 is the most significant bit yes
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18:43:36 <scoofy> i ran the primes.blc program and it locked up my computer. had to hardreset
18:44:14 <tromp_> yes, it warns about that. only take the first 300 or so bits of output
18:44:28 <scoofy> didn't read that warning :/
18:44:41 <scoofy> well, it printed about 10 lines of results fine
18:45:10 <tromp_> the c-program can do over a thousand bits
18:45:22 <scoofy> what happens after that?
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18:45:33 <scoofy> how did it bring a linux to knees?
18:45:34 <tromp_> it starts eating up your swap space:)
18:45:39 <scoofy> ah...
18:45:46 <tromp_> by allocating memory at insane rate
18:45:49 <scoofy> so it eats up all memory, i guess...
18:45:56 <Bike> that doesn't seem terribly efficient
18:46:14 <nortti> unary arithmetic is usually not
18:46:25 <tromp_> that's the price to pay for the shortest prime sieve program
18:46:35 <zzo38> I had a idea about another kind of modal logic operator, which is a "loop modality", which is always a theorem regardless what it is applied to.
18:46:38 <tromp_> it doesnt use any arithmetic
18:46:48 <zzo38> Maybe someone does something similar?
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18:52:35 <scoofy> hilbert.Blc works fine
18:57:42 <tromp_> going for a stroll; cul8r
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18:58:20 <kmc> wouldn't BLC be more compact if the de bruijn indices weren't unary?
18:58:37 <nortti> yes, but also harder to encode
18:59:34 <kmc> how so?
18:59:41 <kmc> harder to write a universal machine?
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19:06:04 <Jafet> Not using unary has overhead, too
19:07:23 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:08:38 <Jafet> How about using unary, but with a bias, so the numbering starts below zero
19:08:58 <Jafet> This makes it easier to refer to variables at some fixed distance to the current scope
19:09:02 <nortti> how would one even do that?
19:10:37 <nortti> I mean, how do you represent a negative num in unary without sign symbol, in which case it is better to just use binary
19:14:47 <tromp_> unary indices are close to optimal
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19:15:02 <tromp_> because larger indices occur much less frequently
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19:15:21 <tromp_> technically, you don't even need any index > 2
19:16:12 <nortti> is there some TC combinator system that only uses 2-arg combinators?
19:16:25 <Jafet> Uhhh
19:17:02 <b_jonas> um what?
19:17:11 <Jafet> Some guy schoenfinkel made one
19:17:41 <tromp_> no, i think you need some 3 arg comb to construct S
19:18:03 <Jafet> @type ap
19:18:04 <lambdabot> Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
19:18:51 <Jafet> Ok, bckw isn't one either
19:19:06 <nortti> tromp_: won't you need index 3, then?
19:19:39 <tromp_> you need indices 0,1,2 or 1,2,3 :)
19:20:01 <tromp_> i sometimes start from 0, sometimes from 1
19:20:39 <tromp_> on that page i start with 1, so yes i need 3 then
19:21:19 <nortti> oh, I see. I start from 1 since the first index in BLC is 10
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19:31:49 <scoofy> hm, i think i'm starting to understand it. so the 3 elements are: 'lambda', 'apply', and an index
19:34:15 <int-e> 00=apply, 01=lambda, 1(1*)0=index *.
19:34:27 <int-e> mm.
19:34:39 <int-e> no, 00=lambda, 01=apply.
19:35:30 <int-e> I forgot about the \io trick, so the first thing in the primes program is actually a lambda.
19:35:40 <Bike> wait, so 1110 is index 2?
19:35:43 <tromp_> yes, the prime program on http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/cl/cl.html is color coded that way
19:35:50 <Bike> oh, so you can do zero, ok
19:35:58 <scoofy> amazing that anything can be expressed in terms of that 3 things.
19:36:02 <int-e> Bike: yes, I count from zero.
19:36:06 <tromp_> lambda in red, apply in green, vars in blue
19:36:15 <scoofy> color coding is fun :)
19:36:32 <Bike> oh, the graphic notation is cute
19:36:35 <scoofy> good that you mention that, because I didn't notice
19:36:43 <nortti> alternativell 3-symbol system would be binary combinatory logic, although that is bit of pita to program in
19:36:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39486 * GermanyBoy * (+6678) Created page with "'''Forobj''' is an object oriented programming language. It is designed to be easily extendable. == Overview == Forobj is a stack-based language. A program is a list of comm..."
19:37:00 <nortti> -ll
19:37:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39487&oldid=39456 * GermanyBoy * (+13) /* F */
19:38:08 <fowl> is there a project name generator on the fungot
19:38:09 <fungot> fowl: not at all related to network fd readiness is dependent on fnord i got from the lists.
19:39:07 <Bike> network fd readiness
19:39:13 <nortti> also, real fast nora's hair saloon 3: sheer disaster download to bcl can be done with APPLY->01, LAMBDA->00, ONE MORE THAN->1, ZERO->10
19:39:24 <b_jonas> Bike: he fd to means regular files on network filesystems
19:40:59 <Bike> is that right, fungot
19:41:01 <fungot> Bike: and it fnord. :) :) 3 :) at least for emacs users.
19:41:33 <b_jonas> fungot, what's your favourite language?
19:41:36 <fungot> b_jonas: http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ fnord), and have vector-like-shuffler return a procedure from a symbol.
19:41:47 <b_jonas> ah yes. classic.
19:42:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39488&oldid=39486 * GermanyBoy * (+240)
19:44:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39489&oldid=39488 * GermanyBoy * (-1)
19:45:00 <Sgeo> "Nuke OPENSSL_NO_SOCK since any half sane operating system has sockets."
19:45:14 <Sgeo> ...why would OpenSSL even be used on a no socket system?
19:45:19 <Sgeo> Oh, I guess key generation?
19:45:25 <Sgeo> and other utilities?
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19:46:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39490&oldid=39489 * GermanyBoy * (+98)
19:47:27 <olsner> there's probably some nut out there who thinks that to get a real secure system you can't just disconnect it, you also have to patch the kernel and libc to remove the socket syscalls
19:47:56 <nortti> or someone who uses STREAMS
19:48:59 <Jafet> For every nut there are ten sysadmins who have to do the same thing because some bureaucrat said so
19:50:12 <Jafet> Are there actually any two-variable universal combinators?
19:50:42 <kmc> Sgeo: the crypto algorithm implementations maybe
19:52:08 <olsner> oh, and there should be plenty of systems where there are sockets, but they just don't look anything like bsd sockets
19:53:42 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:53:54 <Sgeo> http://insanecoding.blogspot.ro/2014/04/common-libressl-porting-mistakes.html
19:54:49 -!- ^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:55:15 -!- ^v has joined.
19:55:35 <Jafet> Well, you'd expect bsd programmers to assume bsd sockets.
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20:07:20 <kmc> olsner: which?
20:08:34 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_Runtime_Environment_for_Wireless is one that I know of
20:09:34 <Jafet> mingw
20:10:00 <Jafet> (Though openssl probably has a winsock backend)
20:10:36 <olsner> winsock's socket api is very close to bsd sockets though
20:12:39 -!- FreeFull has quit.
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20:20:28 <mroman_> hm.
20:20:32 <mroman_> *new idea*
20:32:43 * Sgeo goes to read http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2014/02/http-308-incompetence-expected.html
20:36:47 <Sgeo> I thought HTTP2 was supposed to be about the delivery, not header and status semantics
20:37:31 <Bike> electric boogaloo
20:38:19 <olsner> I also thought it was supposed to, but things wouldn't be very web if they made sense
20:44:01 <zzo38> The way to fix it, I think, would be to make the server check if HTTP2 is specified, and whether or not it is, post a "deprecated" notice mentioning all of these problems, and that you either need to fix your client or connect using an alternate protocol.
20:44:20 <Bike> like gophers
20:44:26 <olsner> Sgeo: hmm, looks like that post is not correct
20:44:55 <olsner> e.g. 301 was *specified* some different way earlier, but never actually used in that manner
20:44:58 <zzo38> The way they describe is certainly too much more stupid, so one thing you can do is, check for HTTP2 and then complain
20:45:45 <Sgeo> zzo38: olsner (and a comment on that page) is saying that the older spec didn't describe reality, and the HTTP2 change is meant to describe the current reality of what browsers actually do
20:45:49 <zzo38> Furthermore, don't use those codes if they cause problems.
20:46:39 -!- FreeFull has joined.
20:46:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Perhaps, but they are probably both wrong. Especially if an unusual browser program is in use, or some other program such as wget is in use.
20:47:20 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:47:55 <Sgeo> Everything web is wrong
20:48:00 <nortti> still, reuse of already-existing code is a bad thing
20:48:05 <nortti> +return
20:49:04 <olsner> Sgeo: I think the upcoming HTTP/1.1-bis RFCs are the best description of current reality, the original HTTP/1.1 (RFC 2616) has some differences
20:49:07 -!- ^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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20:49:46 <olsner> hmm, and those RFCs might be what he calls HTTP/2
20:49:52 <Bike> we're naming standards with chem terms now?
20:49:58 <zzo38> Also, Google's servers do not even correctly implement the existing HTTP. Headerless requests will still respond with a header, and HEAD requests will sometimes return a 404 error even though a GET to the same file works.
20:51:38 <olsner> httpbis is a working group, HTTP/1.1-bis is something I made up because I don't know what they're really called
20:52:05 <Bike> well, that's still bis then.
20:54:06 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:54:49 <kmc> i still love that the IETF mailing list about random number generation is named dsfjdssdfsd
20:57:24 * ais523_ goes on proggit and tries to correct some misconceptions about US copyright law
20:57:34 <ais523_> lots of people think that creating anything similar to someone else's API is now illegal
20:57:53 <ais523_> whereas the court decision was that you need a fair use reason to be able to copy function declarations literally
20:58:16 <ais523_> there is a huge amount of grey area in between, such as if you reimplement someone else's API but write the function declarations yourself
20:59:11 <kmc> * ais523_ goes on proggit <-- noo you have so much to live for
21:01:29 <FireFly> What would the difference be between copying function declarations literally and reimplementing an API but writing the function declarations yourself?
21:02:14 <FireFly> Choice of parameter name is the only thing I can imagine, but that seems a bit.. thin
21:02:44 <Jafet> Legality, of course.
21:03:56 <ais523_> FireFly: the first involves copying them, the latter doesn't, and copyright is about copying
21:03:57 -!- Froox has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*).
21:04:20 <ais523_> the court actually said that copyright law was hard to apply to software, they described it like trying to solve a jigsaw where the pieces don't fit together properly
21:04:37 <FireFly> Oh, okay, so it's purely about the act of copying
21:04:38 <ais523_> in the latter case, you didn't copy the API, even if you happen to independently choose the same variable names
21:04:45 <ais523_> err, didn't copy the declarations
21:04:54 <ais523_> you did copy the API, if you did it based on API docs, but that's more abstract
21:05:02 <ais523_> if you go even further, and, say, reverse-engineer the machine code
21:05:09 <ais523_> then there's even less copying involved
21:05:16 <mroman_> In switzerland reverse-enginerring is allowed
21:05:19 <ais523_> (the court explicitly said they weren't making a ruling about reverse-engineering)
21:05:25 <FireFly> So if I implement someone else's API and by chance happen to choose the same parameter names (i.e. the source code of the two declarations is identical, modulo whitespace) I should still be safe, I guess
21:05:27 <mroman_> if you do it for interopability reasons
21:05:30 <ais523_> mroman_: in the US it's historically been found to be fair use
21:05:36 <ais523_> FireFly: yes
21:05:48 <ais523_> unless they can argue that you remembered the names from seeing their API docs, or something
21:05:55 <mroman_> I.e you would be allowed to reverse engineer a proprietary format so your software can export to it
21:06:10 <ais523_> most of the precedents come from DRM on games consoles
21:06:13 <FireFly> I guess that wouldn't hold for overly general and "obvious" names
21:06:14 <mroman_> You are also allowed to "copy" someone else's software by writing the same software yourself
21:06:28 <ais523_> FireFly: actually, the judgement wasn't that it holds for any particular name, but for a large collection
21:06:37 <mroman_> (which requires that you write it yourself, stealing their code is illegal of course)
21:06:38 <FireFly> Oh, that makes sense
21:06:48 <ais523_> like, it's OK to have a Math.max, so long as much of the rest of your API is different
21:06:54 <mroman_> of course, there's a lot of gray and black area there
21:06:59 -!- Frooxius has joined.
21:07:02 <mroman_> there are design patents and stuff and shit
21:07:03 <Jafet> Looking forward to the oddly-named parameter names that are copyright traps
21:07:03 <mroman_> so...
21:07:28 <ais523_> Jafet: haha, that would actually work, I think
21:07:39 <mroman_> ironically databases aren't protected by copyright laws
21:08:15 <mroman_> unless it is really special
21:08:22 <Jafet> That depends on the jurisdiction.
21:08:36 <Jafet> (And what kind of database)
21:08:51 <mroman_> A pure collection of data isn't worthy of copyright apparentely
21:09:41 <ais523_> this reminds me of the ruling that if you digitize a public domain work precisely enough (i.e. no creativity involved), the resulting digitization is also public domain
21:09:54 <mroman_> I had a semester "IT laws"
21:09:58 <ais523_> (whereas things like performing a public domain piece of music produce a copyrightable recording, because there's creativity in the way you perform it)
21:10:08 <mroman_> and what I've learned is: Nobody really knows what exactly is legal or illegal
21:10:15 <ais523_> mroman_: yeah, that seems about right
21:10:16 <mroman_> and you won't be sure unless a judge rules over it
21:10:21 <ais523_> except when a judge has ruled about it
21:10:25 <mroman_> Yeah.
21:10:31 <mroman_> It's like schrodingers cats
21:10:43 <mroman_> You don't know if what you're doing is illegal until a judge looks at it ;)
21:10:46 <ais523_> e.g. the only precedent we have about open source licenses in the US is that if there's an attribution requirement in the license, you can't reuse the work without attribution
21:10:54 <mroman_> (i.e. open the box)
21:10:58 <ais523_> that was a case where someone violated the Artistic License on model train controllers
21:11:19 <ais523_> but if they had given attribution, who knows? they were violating the license in other ways, but courts only care about determining that the license was broken
21:11:22 <ais523_> not solving hypotheticals
21:11:47 <Jafet> Even then, you don't really know until you bring it up with the appellate court or the relevant legislative body.
21:11:49 <mroman_> yeah
21:12:14 <mroman_> hypothetical scenarios are intentionally left open for law books (that cost 100$ and more) and for law students
21:13:12 <mroman_> of course, "you never know" holds for all kinds of other laws too
21:13:31 <mroman_> There's no official department where you can call for free and ask about what you intend to do is illegal or legal
21:13:41 <mroman_> and if the guy from that department says it's legal it REALLY is LEGAL.
21:14:12 <mroman_> and lawyers aren't really allowed to say "it's legal" too ;)
21:14:46 <ais523_> or at least, they are, just daren't
21:14:51 <ais523_> because they don't really know any better than anyone else does
21:14:58 <mroman_> Probably.
21:15:08 <ais523_> I think there's a decent random factor in court decisions
21:15:28 <ais523_> given how it depends on the lawyers that the sides have, who decides to submit an amicus brief, which judge is assigned, etc.
21:15:41 <mroman_> Yeah.
21:15:58 <mroman_> but the real problem is that you can't have a judge rule in *advance*
21:16:21 <mroman_> even if his decision were a little bit random... at least you know
21:17:00 <ais523_> you can in cases where you can show there's a real risk of being sued over something
21:17:01 <mroman_> That's a general weakness of our law system I think
21:17:15 <mroman_> just by registering a domain I'm one foot in a court
21:17:34 <ais523_> basically, if someone's making legal threats and not going through with them, you can effectively sue yourself to clear your name
21:17:43 <mroman_> There's nobody who can tell me conclusively if I'm allowed to register "mroman.ch"
21:18:57 <mroman_> I can do some database trademark searches
21:19:07 <mroman_> which aren't a 100% guarantee
21:19:13 <Jafet> I don't know any place in the world where registering domain names that are claimed by others is illegal
21:19:17 <mroman_> You just gotta register it anyway and hope nobody's gonna sue you
21:19:39 <mroman_> Jafet: It is in swizterland
21:19:48 <mroman_> You can't register a domain with "coca cola" in it
21:19:54 <mroman_> well you can
21:19:54 <ais523_> the vast majority of cases, if someone else does own the trademark, they'll settle rather than sue if you offer to give them the domain
21:19:56 <mroman_> but they can sue you
21:19:57 <ais523_> although you can't rely on that
21:21:55 <mroman_> You can design a GUI
21:22:03 <mroman_> for a opensource tool you wrote as a hobby
21:22:13 <mroman_> but you'll never know if somebody patented such a design
21:22:36 <mroman_> even if you pay patent researches
21:22:44 <mroman_> they can't tell you for *really* sure
21:22:48 <mroman_> (and it costs a lot)
21:23:14 <ion> http://www.usacryptocoins.com/thecryptocurrencytimes/uncategorized/dafuq-coin-the-first-malware-coin/
21:23:19 <mroman_> (and as I imagine the US with even more crazier software patents...
21:23:34 <mroman_> I imagine it's probably illegal for any US citizen to write software)
21:23:48 <Jafet> Hmm, parking domains is actually illegal in amurica now
21:23:52 <kmc> ion: looooool
21:25:01 <ais523_> mroman_: oh, I thought that was probably illegal a while ago
21:25:05 <Jafet> mroman: fortunately most patents are fairly easy to work around.
21:25:14 <ais523_> or maybe theoretically possible, but it's like the problem of trying to write a bug-free hello world
21:25:18 <ais523_> it takes a huge amount of effort
21:25:18 <Jafet> `coins
21:25:19 <HackEgo> timcoin braulcafoarkulcoin plaincoin 305070coin rfectealcoin stracoin slmcoin @!coin opcrcoin parcoin orgertinoplincoin yencoin physixcoin famadncoin negringhaetacoin unacoin poicoin hypejocoin ming-boocoin huntingcoin
21:25:27 <ais523_> who put a rainbow on coins?
21:25:36 <ais523_> or has that always been there and I just never noticed due to filtering colors in the client?
21:25:41 <Sgeo> rainbowcoin
21:25:47 <Bike> ion: goddamn amazing
21:26:05 <fowl> lol
21:26:18 <fowl> 'the first'
21:26:56 <Jafet> "[...] thanks to the investigative work of the owner of Bittrex, who was about to add Dafuq Coin to his exchange"
21:27:17 <Jafet> About to.
21:27:38 <fowl> i cant wait until "finnsta" becomes standard american english
21:28:00 <ion> Finnish gangsta?
21:28:04 <olsner> ais523_: fairly recent addition
21:28:20 <ion> `cat bin/coins
21:28:20 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
21:28:50 <olsner> `coins --finnish --esolangs 10
21:28:51 <HackEgo> @!coin 0x29acoin bdacal-xcoin insäcoin räisepolkcoin fundexcoin korecoin saancoin oikkalittercoin pohjuksencoin
21:29:13 <nortti> "saancoin" sounds funny
21:29:20 <nortti> "I get coin"
21:30:16 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
21:33:31 <FireFly> `run hg log bin/coins
21:33:32 <HackEgo> changeset: 4627:64a2d83fa108 \ user: HackBot \ date: Sun May 04 18:20:25 2014 +0000 \ summary: <kmc> echo "words \\${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re \'s/( |$)/coin\\1/g\' | rainwords" > bin/coins \ \ changeset: 4531:7f957c1f4661 \ user: HackBot \ date: Sun Mar 16 01:52:15 2014 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> r
21:34:03 <FireFly> `run hg log bin/coins | grep '^date' | head -n 1
21:34:04 <HackEgo> date: Sun May 04 18:20:25 2014 +0000
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21:35:42 -!- nortti has changed nick to lawspeaker.
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21:48:54 <oerjan> yeah it was kmc, he's the main user of the command anyhow.
21:53:27 <kmc> http://files.shroomery.org/files/14-19/968666276-image.jpg
21:54:30 <oerjan> kmc: that facehugger's mushroom disguise isn't fooling anyone.
21:54:35 <kmc> :D
21:57:07 -!- nortti has changed nick to lawspeaker.
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21:59:28 <kmc> http://www.mushroomexpert.com/clathrus_archeri.html
21:59:51 <olsner> looks like a land octopus
22:00:03 <kmc> yes
22:00:08 <kmc> similar to the pacific northwest tree octopus
22:00:13 <kmc> smells worse tho
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23:05:46 <oerjan> > (0$0 !!)
23:05:47 <lambdabot> The operator ‘GHC.List.!!’ [infixl 9] of a section
23:05:48 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
23:05:48 <lambdabot> namely ‘GHC.Base.$’ [infixr 0]
23:05:48 <lambdabot> in the section: ‘0 $ 0 !!’
23:05:58 <oerjan> > (0$0 $)
23:05:59 <lambdabot> The operator ‘GHC.Base.$’ [infixr 0] of a section
23:05:59 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
23:05:59 <lambdabot> namely ‘GHC.Base.$’ [infixr 0]
23:05:59 <lambdabot> in the section: ‘0 $ 0 $’
23:06:05 <Sgeo> https://github.com/bridgetkromhout/devops-against-humanity/blob/master/first-printing-cards-DevOpsAgainstHumanity.csv
23:12:58 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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23:21:55 <FireFly> ) (0$0 $)
23:21:55 <jconn> FireFly: |syntax error
23:21:55 <jconn> FireFly: | (0 $0$)
23:22:32 <int-e> tromp: wow, the I/O handling in the IOCCC entry is nasty. (Am I right that U[-5]=96 can be reduced to U[-5] = 92? You need space for nil (4 entries) plus 8 cons cells with a bool (11 entries each), for a total of 11*8+4 = 92.
23:22:32 <oerjan> shocking
23:22:36 <FireFly> Huh.
23:23:29 <Sgeo> Is Melvar still running idris-bot or is it someone else?
23:23:44 <Sgeo> Same bot in #idris
23:23:53 <FireFly> I think so
23:23:55 <Sgeo> > "Hello, idris-bot ignores me"
23:23:56 <lambdabot> "Hello, idris-bot ignores me"
23:24:14 <int-e> tromp: but the real nastiness is in the manipulation of the code pointer to perform loops in the auxilliary code generated by k(10,33).
23:24:28 <int-e> tromp: well done.
23:25:48 <tromp> int-e: it's been a while since i coded that. let me see if i can figure out my code...
23:31:38 <int-e> tromp: hmm. well it doesn't work.
23:31:50 * int-e checks his own calculation.
23:32:04 <tromp> maybe nil takes 8 entries
23:32:31 <tromp> i have to check my lambda space encoding
23:32:34 <tromp> dinner first...
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23:34:24 <int-e> tromp: oh. I forgot an APP VAR0 part that goes together with the nil, which is another 4 entries. Sorry.
23:36:25 <Melvar> Sgeo: It’s the same, just someone was unhappy about the “slave” name, and it was decided it should be changed.
23:36:50 <Sgeo> Melvar: what about the no > prefix here but yes > prefix in #idris
23:37:47 <Melvar> Sgeo: I thought that was how people wanted it?
23:37:58 <Sgeo> Yes, just wondering how the change was made
23:38:17 <Sgeo> Configs expanded to allow channel-specific configuration?
23:40:27 <Melvar> Well, I implemented configuration in the first place, such that per-channel is possible.
23:40:36 <Taneb> Help I made a Vine
23:53:58 <Melvar> Sgeo: So, as a default, interpPrefixes = ["> ", "( "] , but for #esoteric, interpPrefixes = ["( "] .
23:55:24 <Sgeo> Do people actually use ( in #idris ?
23:57:41 <Melvar> No, I just decided it probably wouldn’t hurt.
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