00:00:12 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Everyone forgets about Agda Lovelace, the first constructivist.
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01:13:45 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/kJxqkZ6.png software licenses are important
01:16:39 <elliott> I hear IBM actually managed to get an exception to that license that allows them to use it for Evil too. (I'm not kidding, but the story may be false.)
01:16:54 <elliott> Crockford is dumb and his license is dumb though.
01:19:31 <Bike> http://dev.hasenj.org/post/3272592502/ibm-and-its-minions mmhm great
01:20:44 <elliott> I mean if you use Crockford's JSON code as it stands then you're completely open to him wasting a lot of your time and money by deciding you're using it for Evil and trying to get you legally for it.
01:21:07 <elliott> and since he's the kind of person to put a clause like that in a license, it's not really convincing to just assume he won't be obnoxious enough to.
01:21:21 <Bike> the point is, someone not a programmer linked me to this and there's nothing to do but laugh
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01:50:27 <^v> "it has addition and subtraction, must be a brainfuck derivetive!"
01:50:52 <^v> ^ everyone who hasnt been to esolangs.org
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03:46:26 <ion> http://www.sewingandembroiderywarehouse.com/embtrb.htm
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04:31:50 <Sgeo> Since #haskell is ignoring me, should I just ask questions in here?
04:32:01 <Sgeo> (Or probably they just didn't see it or didn't know)
04:34:48 <Bike> ask now or forever hold your piece
04:36:12 <ion> Urinate now or forever hold your piss
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05:20:52 <Sgeo> Is Elerea not a good fit if I want discrete events like 'line received from IRC'?
05:33:54 <Sgeo> It looks as though the external function could end up causing loss for those things if the FRP network isn't fast enough
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07:24:15 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22109333/how-can-i-write-human-language-units-as-postfixes-in-haskell-like-3-seconds
07:24:29 <Sgeo> Why does everyone love '3 seconds' whether it makes a lot of sense in the language or not?
07:24:39 <Sgeo> It makes sense in Factor, much less so in Haskell...
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10:23:29 <b_jonas> if I'm not sure whether a language is esoteric or not, should I add it to the esolang wiki?
10:28:14 <oerjan> why is the bloody wiki stalling in the middle of my edits
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10:37:30 <HackEgo> [U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK] [U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT]
10:39:36 <oerjan> fizzie: wiki is down hth
10:41:33 <oerjan> i opened a heap of tabs and not worked, then i complained, then it worked again
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10:46:01 <oerjan> b_jonas: we _do_ have a rule you cannot create categories without discussing first, though. *cough*
10:47:52 <oerjan> well then why didn't you repeal it while you hosted the wiki QED hth
10:48:09 <elliott> enforcing it was more fun!
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10:57:29 <b_jonas> oerjan: we do? oh damn, sorry
10:57:46 <b_jonas> what do I do now then? how do I put it up for discussion?
10:58:09 <b_jonas> an yes, that seems like a dumb rule
10:59:40 <fizzie> I am not sure why it is being slow, the computer it runs on is mostly idle.
10:59:47 <fizzie> (But it was v. slow for me, too.)
11:00:54 <oerjan> b_jonas: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Categorization
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11:15:51 <elliott> 11:41:38 <oerjan> *none worked
11:27:15 <oerjan> what, a new HWN i thought they'd died
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11:52:45 <oerjan> "•Fuuzetsu: I know someone who pulls in Lens just for & and ??" <-- it's tempting...
11:54:07 <oerjan> hm looks like there's been another bitcoin crash
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12:13:15 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/Bsy1sZI.jpg
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12:14:17 <b_jonas> I want to add the ant brain language from ICFP 2004 defined at "https://alliance.seas.upenn.edu/~plclub/cgi-bin/contest/ants.html" to the wiki. what name do you suppose I should use for that language?
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12:15:39 <b_jonas> it could be "Ant state machine" or "Ambiant" or "Ant brain" or "ICFP 2004" or something else
12:17:00 <oerjan> elliott: bitcoinity's graph fell from 0.6 to 0.4 in the last week
12:17:14 <elliott> pfft, you call that a crash?
12:17:17 <elliott> it's not a crash until it halves
12:17:28 <oerjan> for anything _other_ than bitcoin it would be :P
12:17:37 <elliott> b_jonas: mediawiki supports redirects, so pick your favourite and redirect th eothers
12:19:09 <oerjan> finally ghc might get the (:: T) extension i babbled about in 2008 or thereabouts
12:21:10 <elliott> I guess it is actually useful these days
12:21:22 <elliott> I guess lens wants something stronger
12:21:48 <oerjan> elliott: augustss noted that it could also be used as a proxy
12:22:29 <Koen_> I'm doing these regexp crosswords and one of the 'definitions' is [ABC]\s(LU|LP)]* and there is a mismatched ] whatdoido
12:22:34 <lambdabot> `IM.size' (imported from Data.IntMap),
12:22:55 <lambdabot> `IM.size' (imported from Data.IntMap),
12:23:16 <elliott> Koen_: \] or put it right after the [
12:23:23 <elliott> the latter is quite horrid.
12:23:39 <lambdabot> Foreign.Storable sizeOf :: Storable a => a -> Int
12:23:39 <lambdabot> Network.Socket.Internal sizeOfSockAddr :: SockAddr -> Int
12:23:39 <lambdabot> Network.Socket.Internal sizeOfSockAddrByFamily :: Family -> Int
12:23:59 <oerjan> elliott: i think Koen_ means the regexp is already given as that
12:24:53 <Koen_> I'm feeling very uncomfortable
12:26:25 <oerjan> killed by unmatched brackets
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12:45:50 <fizzie> This code is supposed to return values generally in the range [-10, 10], but it's returning values in [-10^300, 10^300]. :/
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13:48:18 <b_jonas> hehe http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ndef
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13:54:24 <int-e> I love "the famous real-time interpreter notepad.exe".
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15:59:57 <mroman> Is there a language that let's you define input types based on whether certain methods exist?
16:00:25 <mroman> kinda like int foo(some type where int bar(int) exists )
16:00:42 <mroman> *int bar(that certain type)
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16:06:37 <mroman> Can you give me a keyword to look it up?
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16:07:36 <elliott> or "static duck typing" is what a plebian would call it, so you might get results that way too :P
16:08:27 <mroman> Go hase some cool interface stuff
16:09:22 <mroman> well.. it's an interface alright
16:10:05 <FireFly> https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~neelk/rows.pdf has some slides on the topic
16:10:14 <FireFly> but you probably found those already
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16:35:59 <mroman> http://codepad.org/BkcDW8CK <- something like that
16:36:14 <mroman> although showing you sketch-code isn't probably gonna say much :D
16:38:12 <mroman> function addStuff(<* +(a) => a *> a, <* +(a) => a *> b) would allow you to pass two things that support the + operator
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16:38:48 <mroman> the real question though is whether this kind of stuff requires run-time checks or not
16:40:49 <mroman> You can create a list of "objects" that all support addition
16:41:37 <mroman> which means there can be a double and an integer in it
16:41:44 <mroman> but I might not be able to add doubles and integers
16:41:53 <mroman> which is why I'd need a "homogenous" constraint
16:42:32 <mroman> The other thing is knowing at compile time which overloaded function I'd actually have to invoke
16:42:45 <mroman> and I guess that's not possible
16:45:28 <mroman> http://codepad.org/x9yx3VQb <- Haskell seems to know which version of a function it has to invoke
16:45:34 <mroman> for existential quantification
16:50:11 <mroman> Is my assumption correct that this can't be decided at compile time?
16:51:43 <nooodl> i don't think it is; you could have some function return Objs and pass them to squ
16:52:03 <nooodl> then which function it has to invoke depends on that x value's type
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16:55:45 <newsham> infinite ducks typing for an infinite amount of time will eventually verify a correct program
17:06:11 <quintopia> does boily ever leave metasepia in here while he's at work
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17:08:24 <Bike> he did once when specifically asked to
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17:10:50 <coppro> kolgomorov complexity blows my mind every time
17:14:42 <coppro> the correctly spelled complexity blows my mind every time
17:15:32 <coppro> the fact that the difference between different systems is only constant is just amazing
17:15:53 <Bike> it's "just" turing universality
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17:22:07 <coppro> but the constant factor is what's so strange
17:22:38 <coppro> not all universal machines are time-equivalent; it's likely the case that TMs are slower than QTMs are slower than NTMs
17:23:08 <Bike> yeah, there are extensions to kolmogorov complexity that require the program to have similar complexities, and there's no constant factor there
17:26:17 <Bike> i don't understand your question.
17:26:32 <Bike> i don't understand your message
17:26:50 <int-e> ?! time does not even the picture, it's all about program size.
17:27:16 <coppro> Given two models of turing-universality, kolmogorov complexity of a string between the two varies by at most a constant
17:27:31 <Bike> yes, because you can just stick an interpreter in front
17:27:48 <coppro> This doesn't come from "just" turing universality, because there are other properties like time complexity which do depend on the model
17:27:52 <coppro> and that's what's so weird
17:28:01 <Bike> time complexity is irrelevant to kolmogorov complexity.
17:28:22 <Bike> the constant factor is just for the program size. the new interpreter program combo might run exponentially slower.
17:28:33 <Bike> so what are you talking about.
17:29:39 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/386/
17:30:22 <coppro> Bike: I am simply trying to draw a comparison between two properties of universal turing machine
17:33:45 <mroman> The biggest problem about this "as few constraints as possible" is, that you can't do much withit
17:34:00 <mroman> you can pass in a list of squarables to a function that squares them and returns them in a new list
17:34:07 <mroman> but you can't get those values out again :)
17:34:33 <mroman> because you can't cast it back to a double (because a squarable isn't always a double)
17:34:50 <mroman> The function would have to make a promise to NOT change any type in the list
17:34:56 <mroman> as well as NOT change the length of the list
17:35:36 <mroman> then one could safely pass a list of doubles and cast it back to a list of doubles since we know the function doesn't affect the types
17:35:53 <mroman> and I guess then we arrived at dependant types :(
17:37:29 <mroman> especially with custom user defined types/containers that's probaly a little bit tricky
17:37:35 <mroman> to verify that no contained type is changed
17:37:54 <mroman> for lists you could just block add and some other list functions
17:38:25 <Bike> https://peerj.com/articles/338/ scientists are fucked up
17:40:24 <mroman> not as fucked up as the participants who stung themselves
17:40:37 <mroman> or let them sting them?
17:40:44 <mroman> I'm not sure what the correct pronoun here is :(
17:41:01 <mroman> ... as the participants who let them(the scientists) sting them(the participants)?
17:41:15 <Bike> the participant was the experimenter, is the point.
17:41:30 <nooodl> Bike: "Medical terminology: Buttocks / Layperson terminology: Buttock" nice
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18:42:43 <b_jonas> mroman: go also has static duck typing I think, but I'm not sure
18:43:48 <b_jonas> well, I think they're both static and dynamic, sort of like haskell's classes, as in the validity is checked in runtime but the methods are resolved partly in runtime
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18:52:13 <kmc> was the first "runtime" there meant to be "compile time"?
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19:21:51 <b_jonas> validity is checked in compile time
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19:38:49 * oerjan wonders who made him a reddit response that was deleted.
19:43:57 <kmc> b_jonas: yeah
19:44:06 <kmc> interface types in Go are used for two different things, though
19:44:45 <kmc> you can call the methods in the interface, but you can also do typecase and casts on the dynamic type of the value
19:45:39 <kmc> and since Go doesn't have actual polymorphism, it's very common to pass "interface {}" and do runtime checks on it :<
19:46:32 <kmc> by contrast Haskell a) has a real type system, b) has a separate facility for dynamic casts, which is much less frequently used because see (a)
19:47:23 <Melvar> interface{} is the top type.
20:10:10 <olsner> oh, btw, these guys are back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH0n_Ew2YDM
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21:21:46 <Taneb> elliott, I have a strange feeling that your day was more interesting than mine
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22:04:58 <Bicyclidine> https://twitter.com/haley/status/451838031297646592/photo/1/large
22:08:27 <oerjan> butt that makes no sense.
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23:26:51 <impomatic> How can I do a signed multiplication using unsigned multiplication? Is the only way to take the absolute value of both multiplicands, multiply, then set the correct sign afterwards?
23:28:13 <elliott> how could you do better? if the call will only take and output naturals, then you need to have a "downgrade" and an "upgrade" step
23:28:48 <elliott> abs to get something you can pass to unsigned multiplication, then applying the sign to regain the information, seems minimal
23:30:05 <impomatic> I wasn't sure if there's some magical bit twiddling thing that somehow works :-)
23:30:33 <oerjan> there is. just make sure you use enough bitwidth
23:31:21 <elliott> oh, okay, so it's unsigned multiplication on the two's complement form?
23:32:02 <elliott> right, I can see how it's not obviously impossible to do better then :P
23:32:03 <oerjan> it's just multiplication (mod 2^n)
23:32:34 <oerjan> and it will work as long as the multiplication of the value bits don't seep into the sign bit
23:34:33 <oerjan> put differently, you can think of it as working in the 2-adic system
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23:52:11 <Sgeo> Ok so in Elemera or whatever it's called, there's externalMulti, which I completely didn't notice until now
23:56:57 <lambdabot> Koen_ said 11h 33m 11s ago: yeah I watched the latest captain america film with a friend and of course the bad guys from the opening scene are french (the bad guys are always french...) or so did they say!!! they were OBVIOUSLY quebecois
23:57:27 <boily> @tell Koen_ eh? eeeeeeh? like, real Québécois people for real real?