< 1389139244 463076 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389139484 596025 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Video: The Essence of C++ (Stroustrup)" < 1389139488 654574 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ has an essence? < 1389139519 307125 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has an evil spirit < 1389139549 840864 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting to think I should use Eclipse < 1389139557 258695 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are Eclipse plugins for Haskell, Erlang < 1389139564 182108 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably a lot of other languages < 1389139611 176719 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An Eclipse plugin, currently available with CLISP (for WinXP, Macos, Linux) and SBCL (Macos, Linux). It supports the developer with syntax analyses 'as you type' (limited), syntax highlighting, code completion, parenthesis matching, apropos and a listener." < 1389139620 982226 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is SBCL so stereotyped as being anti-Windows? < 1389139640 693818 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-178-249-81.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, it's been relatively nice to me. < 1389139983 392049 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-204-47.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because when you booted it it said shit about evil cats < 1389140096 321298 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-204-47.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was in the runtime for some absurd reason, so you couldn't remove it < 1389140578 217965 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat cat < 1389140580 229970 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meow~~ < 1389142554 187338 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1389142585 503989 :Sorella!~queen@oftn/member/Sorella QUIT :Quit: It is tiem! < 1389142627 758207 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1389142911 367737 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.100.12 QUIT :Quit: Ik ga weg < 1389143992 81252 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1389144812 735281 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it does!! < 1389144875 415869 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why I say that C++ is a bad language that's bad in a way opposite to most bad languages < 1389144948 390474 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHP bad is certainly different from C++ bad < 1389144949 851949 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a elaborate and conceptually cohesive design by some very smart people attempting some very ambitious goals (which few others have even attempted) and it kinda collapses under its own weight < 1389144957 748474 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not just a bunch of unrelated crap thrown together, although that's all most people learn it as :( < 1389144984 634994 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is definitely too big < 1389144998 307108 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHP is definitely just a bunch of crap thrown together < 1389145011 444693 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of the problems with C++ follow from a small number of onerous design requirements < 1389145014 467824 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of which are questionable < 1389145034 201257 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's a reason behind everything < 1389145050 225626 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like PHP where you ask "why is it done this way" and rasmus lerdorf just flips you off < 1389145100 924264 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling to get out. " — Bjarne Stroustrup < 1389145116 785400 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it called C? < 1389145120 514171 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1389145132 386661 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be called Rust, at least that's the most credible choice I know of < 1389145146 583643 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust is nice < 1389145150 424854 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think D is more C++ though < 1389145158 435945 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1389145165 979206 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :D doesn't aspire to memory safety the way C++ does < 1389145187 76577 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, the way Rust does < 1389145196 343668 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust aspires to memory safety, but not quite in the way C++ does either < 1389145200 56969 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :although C++ does aspire to memory safety to a much greater degree than is realized by the "C with crap thrown in" crowd < 1389145211 921202 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAII? < 1389145233 187281 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :people say things like "C arrays and std::vector are feature duplication!" but really, you use the former to implemen the latter < 1389145243 948404 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or to implement other more specialized memory-safe containers < 1389145245 118815 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :except < 1389145250 929572 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't really make it memory safe < 1389145256 149373 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of iterator invalidation and related issues < 1389145261 640566 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's where Rust has to pull in some research ideas < 1389145287 331570 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, C++ *is* C with crap thrown in, it's just a bit more complicated than "we wrote stuff that's like C, but different". < 1389145307 2012 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That depends on what you mean by "C arrays". < 1389145310 43445 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you counting new[]? < 1389145333 716988 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1389145349 620900 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead it's "we've got a bunch of desired semantics, and we've got to make it work on something that's different from C in only trivial ways." < 1389145377 95147 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: my point is that idiomatic C++ is a completely different beast from idiomatic C. it's not like "write C but also use these other random features when they seem useful" < 1389145381 978176 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that's what ~everybody does in practice < 1389145407 771866 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yes, idiomatic C++ is a very different beast from C++ in-the-wild. < 1389145423 393123 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because doing things The C++ Way requires mastering too many concepts and has too many unfortunate practical consequences < 1389145433 358216 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Particularly with C++11, which makes it reasonable to actually The C++ Way. < 1389145442 820909 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does idiomatic C++ exist? < 1389145537 199747 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere < 1389145548 803151 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parts of Boost might be considered "idiomatic C++" by definition < 1389145564 40319 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to tell where "idiomatic C++" ends and "terrifying abuse of the language" begins, which is part of the problem < 1389145590 145531 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, kmc, you're definitely right. C++ is bad because of having design goals that result in something awful when combined, rather than hardly being designed. < 1389145600 553461 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is pretty unique. < 1389145611 355421 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boost has a lot of nice stuff, though, and it's not fair how people judge this large, heterogenous collection of libraries by its most excessive parts < 1389145620 421139 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yep < 1389145632 159712 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I would argue that you can do much better if you remove just one or two of those design goals < 1389145662 827966 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first ones I would drop are syntactic (near-)compatibility with C, and total compatibility with a C-style build incl. header files etc < 1389145664 593592 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just making it not have to pretend to be C would probably help matters decently. < 1389145667 14191 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1389145688 661539 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately that feature is probably what made it successful. :P < 1389145704 619947 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use Rust as basically that, and still do unsafe crap everywhere if you like < 1389145720 848334 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you still lose some powerful C++ features < 1389145749 216491 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking more in terms of marketing in this... < 1389145751 670705 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note that I say "powerful" and not "nice". those C++ features are Not Your Friend but they can do amazing stuff) < 1389145759 374034 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :foremost, templates < 1389145781 965311 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea that C++ is "C version 2" probably helped a lot. < 1389145787 676194 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1389145791 148908 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies are very effective for marketing < 1389145799 511163 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1389145807 58768 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially ones that aren't obvious. < 1389145832 177977 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, C++ looks a lot *like* it's C version 2. (by design) < 1389145873 2386 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1389145876 628246 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do Java and C# < 1389145890 424734 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite being fundamentally different < 1389145895 422317 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :To a lesser extent, but yeah. < 1389145914 569547 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java was successfully marketed as a "C++ replacement" because people were using C++ for the wrong kinds of things (but for lack of alternatives, so was it really "wrong"?) < 1389145969 623640 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly they should have been using ANSI Common Lisp all along. < 1389146703 326319 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you lose templates? < 1389146781 165876 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I don't like about C++ templates is using < > for delimiters for the template syntax; it can cause a lot of confusion < 1389146815 413224 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust has generics, but they act much more like traditional parametric polymorphism (with typeclass bounds), rather than the... exotic mixture of polymorphism, macros, and type introspection that is C++ templates < 1389146843 549921 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust has macros too but likewise < 1389146859 769781 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do things with C++ templates that you can't easily do with polymorphism + macros, even together < 1389146875 282623 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of things, for example? < 1389146910 99690 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :type introspection, data structures that ask if the parameter type is a pointer or a reference or whether it has a virtual destructor and does different things < 1389146934 697511 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, OK < 1389146949 779620 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389146982 551908 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this kinda stuffs http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/type_traits/ < 1389146995 271151 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how much does it really help? < 1389147003 608487 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno < 1389147004 858727 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's cool tho < 1389147020 728979 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't seem so helpful. < 1389147052 409963 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of those things might be useful, but some doesn't seem like very good. < 1389147081 959758 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, as an example, the Rust compiler has a special case to represent Option (which is like Haskell's Maybe T) as one word, when T is a non-nullable pointer (so NULL can be used for None) < 1389147092 577052 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it seems like you could do that in C++ purely in library code < 1389147099 243888 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't tried, though < 1389147126 121288 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The special case is for any ADT that's obviously like Option, isn't it? < 1389147132 214133 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1389147146 385302 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not for Option by name, but for any type with the same structure < 1389147150 216153 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. I think you get it automatically for the equivalent of Either () T < 1389147153 971803 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1389147164 640394 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't generalize out to n-ary enums where n-1 of the ctors are nullary, though :/ < 1389147191 913674 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :reserve the first page of addresses for nullary enum discriminants! < 1389147192 10803 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is only for optimization then such a special case is probably OK, if it is controlled by the optimization setting. < 1389147210 309275 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't think it's controlled by the optimization setting, because it's part of the ABI? < 1389147216 225488 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i have to go, ttyl though < 1389147226 745507 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, it is part of the ABI. < 1389147226 849771 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know that ghc ignores {-# UNPACK #-} with -O0 < 1389147545 201802 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU C supports a "typeof" operator, which can do some of kind of things, such as typeof(*(X)0) might make the type of what X is being pointed to, but it won't do much with the normal C codes, although it still would have a few uses in macros. < 1389147590 981268 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the C++ type adjustments stuff can be done in this way. < 1389147700 891356 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore I have made up the (draft) specification which has struct/union with parameters, so using this, typeof becomes more useful, and so do many other things. Does Rust have "typeof" operator? Haskell doesn't seem to have, although perhaps similar things can be done in other ways, using the GHC extensions. < 1389147824 490975 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ type traits seems to have a lot of things, much seems not so useful, or can cause confusion in some cases. < 1389147835 807375 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, maybe there is a use of it. < 1389147883 96101 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does seem to me like a lot of these features could be simplified by using typeof instead. < 1389148087 212674 :nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1389148201 850716 :drlemon!~drlemon@cpe-108-185-0-32.socal.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1389148332 988105 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the features may seem to be useful for optimization though; maybe it would help to define another file which is used to specify which optimizations are possible, and if applicable (inside of a #master block) which modules it is applicable to. < 1389148504 102560 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, Either<(),T> does get optimized by rustc. < 1389148542 119336 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know that. < 1389148547 549686 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and more generally, it may optimize enum Foo { Null, NonNull(uint, uint, uint, ~uint, uint) } since the NonNull variant has a non-nullable field < 1389150469 527290 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i didn't know about that < 1389150604 85288 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: and the gotcha is that Option<(uint,uint,uint,~uint,uint)> does not get optimized currently (though it's isomorphic to Foo above) ;) < 1389150612 636508 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is an issue about it < 1389150662 305751 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#9378. < 1389151477 357502 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-178-249-81.maine.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1389153561 341682 :Yonkie!~Yonkie@ip.82.144.199.214.stat.volia.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1389153900 894510 :Yonkie!~Yonkie@ip.82.144.199.214.stat.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389154007 396830 :tertu!~tertu@143.44.70.199 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1389154152 347412 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1389154266 299362 :tertu!~tertu@143.44.70.199 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389155000 29856 :tertu!~tertu@143.44.70.199 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1389155074 164949 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin NICK :copumpkin < 1389155621 957538 :mauke!~mauke@p3m/member/mauke QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1389155631 990294 :mauke!~mauke@p3m/member/mauke JOIN :#esoteric < 1389155717 830628 :preflex!~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1389155769 229298 :preflex!~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex JOIN :#esoteric < 1389156294 318143 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I finally got an electric kettle. < 1389156298 136388 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did I live previously. < 1389156341 988442 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :steam-powered, obviously. < 1389156346 139862 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ContT < 1389156347 399822 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :((a -> m r) -> m r) -> ContT r m a < 1389156360 108129 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be nice if IO came with a ContT-like function < 1389156367 797064 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So IO instead of ContT r IO < 1389156371 510906 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they are not a common thing in the US.) < 1389156404 296984 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You would have to do it yourself, but Haskell lacks the macros to do it conveniently. < 1389156455 795944 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe not < 1389156481 263442 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A single ContT r IO a is basically ... one marker that the continuation is delimited at < 1389156494 467571 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1389156528 968743 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1b8wzp/my_shot_at_cont/c94v11y < 1389156606 446766 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :an electric kettle is not as good for making moonshine < 1389156644 139122 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ContT can be used for other things too, like this example: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Bruijndejx A lot of other similar things can be done too, with continuation monads. < 1389156733 934912 :karlenarencibia!~danila@186.89.55.164 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389156773 931803 :karlenarencibia!~danila@186.89.55.164 PART :#esoteric < 1389156813 933224 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yeah, but who cares? < 1389156835 936122 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here in Missouri we don't need surreptitious distilling. < 1389156851 648607 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :People who have electric kettles and who want to make moonshine, would care. If you don't want to make any such things, then you shouldn't care. < 1389156856 682601 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stills are perfectly legal for personal use. < 1389156973 138557 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :distilling your own booze sounds fun tho < 1389156985 291607 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a J monad. I do not know what it does. < 1389157008 151942 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Where is it in? If you have its definition, then you can learn. < 1389157010 557507 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course searching for it gives hits regarding J's different use of the term 'monad' < 1389157014 995111 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. And you can do up to 100 gallons of it. < 1389157018 241178 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't be as cool as the OMEGA MONAD < 1389157019 152761 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/9clsr/wanted_applications_of_the_j_monad/ < 1389157029 21929 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :100 gallons of azeotropic ethanol? Sure! < 1389157123 620010 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-204-47.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got an electric kettle for christmas, after trying and failing to boil water in a microwave < 1389157124 889946 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's about 8 × 10^9 joules < 1389157130 101791 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-204-47.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and british people on irc asked me what the fuck i was doing < 1389157143 143448 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :british people on irc ask me what the fuck i'm doing every day < 1389157147 416539 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the typical American thing to do. < 1389157149 125278 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Well, there it is; furthermore, it is the same as (CodensityAsk (Op r)) which I think I might have proven. < 1389157158 177556 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out boiling water in the microwave is shitty. < 1389157164 402161 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-204-47.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. yes, it is < 1389157166 155729 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have even less idea what CodensityAsk is < 1389157170 377458 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Therefore, the Escardo's S monad is also same as CodensityAsk Predicate) < 1389157182 388121 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:f790:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence why I am wondering how I lived. < 1389157203 289208 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-204-47.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well good to know it will be all my boiling water-related dreams and more < 1389157208 76518 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype CodensityAsk f x = CodensityAsk (forall r. f r -> (x -> r) -> r) < 1389157219 737759 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, infinite search in finite time < 1389157280 38853 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://math.andrej.com/2008/11/21/a-haskell-monad-for-infinite-search-in-finite-time/ < 1389157285 359602 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of those functions already have names < 1389157323 609611 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :search is the only one I don't recognize as either being Monad or ... there's another typeclass that union makes me think of, MonadPlus? < 1389157334 505917 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One feature of CodensityAsk is that if (Comonad f), then (MonadPlus (CodensityAsk f)). < 1389157592 842599 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This forces the sets to be non-empty, but has a defect: it also forces the find operator to tell lies when there is no correct element it can choose. " < 1389157593 730663 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew < 1389158112 158467 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seriously need to compare and contrast Rebol PARSE with monadic parsing < 1389158123 634421 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know enough about the former < 1389158274 828762 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rebol tends to suffer the same way as concatenative languages from being difficult to read when there are unfamiliar functions present :/ < 1389158313 77754 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also from its love of doing exactly what I hate about dynamic typing culture < 1389158398 22314 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I once decided though that Rebol strictly > Tcl < 1389158615 130656 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nit < 1389158622 677446 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.red-lang.org/2013/11/041-introducing-parse.html claims that PARSE is composable < 1389158628 996231 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that the rules are < 1389158686 418932 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1389158755 488642 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-204-47.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1389158951 990306 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1389159063 584138 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrmph, I don't think I agree with this slideshow's assessment of Rebol as having "dynamic binding" < 1389159075 755548 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, .... I confused binding and scoping < 1389159086 775175 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says definitional scoping. Which... ok < 1389159275 508281 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Self-hosting reminds me of nomic. If you have a bug before you self host, that bug could stay there forever and be unfixable without anyone even noticing < 1389159278 718238 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1389159479 565988 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, rebol's approach to Internet protocols is.... icky < 1389159483 242385 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global names for schemes < 1389159500 903216 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being able to type irc:// is SO valuable, let's give up modularity < 1389159508 584119 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if Red will fix things like that < 1389160387 714122 :tertu!~tertu@143.44.70.199 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389160518 32178 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: CodensityAsk should just be called Free or something. < 1389160539 425788 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I know the name "CodensityAsk" is not so good, but "Free" refers to something else. < 1389160564 890117 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, Free monad. < 1389160575 625694 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's a big abuse of the name Free. So many things are free. < 1389160580 151711 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1389160587 437697 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know that < 1389160615 132567 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389160883 116046 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1389161219 431205 :ter2!~tertu@143.44.70.199 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389161298 411848 :myndzi!myndzi@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3d4e QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1389161321 868986 :tertu!~tertu@143.44.70.199 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1389161824 570084 :augur!~augur@c-75-74-130-194.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1389161872 955329 :augur!~augur@c-75-74-130-194.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389162024 858460 :myndzi!myndzi@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3d4e JOIN :#esoteric < 1389162555 121669 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1389163900 142555 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1389164355 514352 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389165589 553192 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahaha, there was a big security incident in South Korea which exposed at least 130 million records of personal records from three credit card companies. < 1389165784 483116 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stupidly enough that was because they out-sourced the fraud detection system development to the other company and employees can easily access those informations < 1389165812 70776 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, the whole company is a great test bed for crackers :S < 1389166098 783602 :Slereahphone!~slereahph@80.10.161.173 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389166241 775787 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1389167284 977123 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1389167402 785289 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1389167524 916659 :Slereahphone!~slereahph@80.10.161.173 QUIT :Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi < 1389168679 759157 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389169109 50714 :ter2!~tertu@143.44.70.199 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1389169131 64368 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@141.70.114.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389169944 948654 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-178-249-81.maine.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1389170553 793394 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1389171568 533222 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1389171572 926850 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389171804 989065 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1389171841 910353 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-178-249-81.maine.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1389172437 325955 :hogeyui___!~hogeyuiVP@vps.usamimi.biz QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1389172957 284593 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's some nondeterminism in my sox. :/ < 1389173022 176767 :rntz^2!~rntz@eos.sp.cs.cmu.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1389173048 801813 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! You have to put a question mark so that you can question yourself? < 1389173168 871810 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's some nondeterminism in my sox? < 1389173442 569123 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1389173479 134739 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "Ouch" a proper name for a magical familiar in case they need to have a proper name (for any reason)? < 1389173528 687608 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew, people actually write "concat [[x], xs]" < 1389173621 973124 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do? < 1389173628 321962 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1389173643 876887 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, at least some of the students here < 1389173766 831937 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: can you fail them for that? < 1389173790 99559 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly not < 1389173825 372457 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also got [x] ++ xs sometimes < 1389173858 997970 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even worse: foo (x:xs] | x:xs == [] = [] < 1389173874 509417 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*) < 1389173930 326654 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: winners < 1389174037 498244 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i kind of doubt they did proper testing < 1389174084 952696 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :dock all the grades < 1389174120 36622 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but worst thing i have seen so far is < 1389174123 444545 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^4 - 2^3 < 1389174126 31803 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric := 10 - 0 < 1389174127 342636 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric := 8 < 1389175552 492067 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: (or someone else) do you know a proof that a countable subshift has 0 entropy other than stuff about the variational principle? < 1389175635 211639 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with the variational principle: for subshifts, you can always find a measure of maximal entropy. such measures form a compact simplex so there's an extremal point. but an extremal point is clearly a periodic orbit.) < 1389175671 656361 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and periodic orbits quite obviously have 0 entropy) < 1389175711 515622 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first occurrence of "entropy" in my message being topological < 1389176255 570377 :hogeyui!~hogeyuiVP@vps.usamimi.biz JOIN :#esoteric < 1389177342 149079 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^4 - 2^3 is 8 < 1389177393 810765 :stuntaneous!~stuntaneo@2001:1af8:4700:a000:10:: JOIN :#esoteric < 1389177421 511890 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_, look at the intermediate step < 1389177495 217515 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. Happens. < 1389177543 566530 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :My brain is capable of assuming 4 - 0 = -4 < 1389177570 707597 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are reading from right to left < 1389177584 125775 :impomatic!~digital_w@87.114.58.47 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1389177627 67734 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember a statistics exam where all my intermediate results were correct < 1389177640 532636 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I failed to write the end result correctly < 1389177646 264182 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are the odds < 1389177684 138788 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like sqrt(80) = 9.38 < 1389177700 357397 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone needed to make sqrt(2.25) < 1389177724 797866 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i told him "hey, try writing it as a fraction. hint: .25 may be quarters" < 1389177733 574258 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wrote sqrt(9/4) in the end < 1389177742 861801 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm < 1389177745 454028 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was kinda disappointing < 1389177749 115098 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes sense < 1389177755 64777 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not wrong < 1389177765 682074 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it's 3/2 < 1389177768 782094 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i assume, you should be able to calculate sqrt(9/4) < 1389177786 175267 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does one multiply fractions again? < 1389177792 95889 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :a/b * c/d = ac/bd? < 1389177825 426695 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1389177827 524526 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :then 3/2 < 1389177953 624333 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty bad at math, especially with numbers < 1389177983 554741 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but luckily most stuff that's actually required if you're not actually studying math is pretty straight forward < 1389178122 781997 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the worst grade in the US required to still pass an exam? < 1389178148 939668 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :D? < 1389178230 609176 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (60/100*5)+1 < 1389178231 757523 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4.0 < 1389178245 877528 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds about right. < 1389180002 614017 :atrapado!~dro@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1389180699 302661 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-178-249-81.maine.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1389182085 988976 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :WeeChat doesn’t handle joining a channel with 45365 users too well. < 1389182535 699186 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not realise such channels existed < 1389182646 200982 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eevee 3 caught < 1389182994 37754 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eevee 4 caught < 1389182999 285494 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now for breakfast < 1389183002 645580 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi NICK :nortticat < 1389183024 85712 :nortticat!nortti@nano.smar.fi NICK :nortti < 1389183039 730915 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :taneb: #speeddemosarchivesda on irc.twitch.tv, i.e. the chat backend for http://de.twitch.tv/speeddemosarchivesda < 1389183129 787790 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, makes sense < 1389183142 657614 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :A not-really-meant-to-be-used-as-an-IRC-channel IRC channel < 1389183584 997683 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's AGDQtime. < 1389183600 802660 :stuntaneous!~stuntaneo@2001:1af8:4700:a000:10:: QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1389183609 652769 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I did not even know.) < 1389183721 954999 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1389184100 147962 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-178-249-81.maine.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1389184550 270151 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1389185704 816107 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us JOIN :#esoteric < 1389186082 377079 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us NICK :{} < 1389186103 85184 :{}!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us NICK :{|} < 1389186117 644694 :{|}!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us NICK :{^} < 1389186132 725722 :{^}!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us NICK :{I} < 1389186141 241632 :{I}!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us NICK :{L} < 1389186157 34663 :{L}!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us PART #esoteric :"Hack the planet." < 1389186278 848054 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389186282 669366 :metasepia!~metasepia@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389186541 226512 :{C}!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us JOIN :#esoteric < 1389186749 430876 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1389186782 695819 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@141.70.114.6 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1389187498 816941 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :{C}: just how many different nicks do you have? < 1389187575 311917 :{C}!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: the max that's allowed. < 1389187599 213510 :hogeyui!~hogeyuiVP@vps.usamimi.biz QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1389187632 81631 :hogeyui!~hogeyuiVP@vps.usamimi.biz JOIN :#esoteric < 1389187749 945265 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@vpn34-128.rz.hs-offenburg.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1389187837 990803 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. There's this technology-themed event (short lectures intended for non-specialist audiences etc.) at the nearby conference place soonishly. There's one lecture that's just listed as "Laser". < 1389187988 160879 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clerical error? < 1389188087 328831 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't know. There's a subheading of approximately "technology of light" above that, and something about natural light. < 1389188119 602237 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's kind of unclear what to expect. < 1389188128 556791 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps they'll burn the attendees with lasers. < 1389188158 920535 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you smell different if you get burned by different laser colours? < 1389188193 974358 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :More research is clearly needed. < 1389188602 870215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389189118 230629 :jix!~jix@jixco.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1389189169 806387 :jix!~jix@jixco.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1389189833 471326 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run printf "%2x%2x%2x" 71 108 108 < 1389189834 731602 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :476c6c < 1389190057 906509 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1389190133 785505 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: What do you think of #476c6c as, say, a wall paint color? < 1389190134 143776 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's a common reaction that you seem to be a fnord but good link on simplifying the metaobject stuff i think :p but neighbour might've woken up), 3) < 1389190322 111575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that color is used as a colorkey for transparent in NetHack 4 < 1389190330 736578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure transparent wall paint would be such a good idea < 1389190334 801446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it would be < 1389190341 500268 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, as a color, that seems a bit dark. < 1389190342 342832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get the benefit of paint but can still see the wall < 1389190404 424457 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Enumerate the non-colorrific benefits of wall paint, please. < 1389190404 637799 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i think that specifing relative heading sizes is not only a disassembler :) < 1389190406 250481 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm sure I'll get something relevant out of there if I'm just patient enough.) < 1389190448 292689 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot is about fun, not relevance, or is it? < 1389190448 699260 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: do you have a picture that actually highlights all of the < 1389190489 848114 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now fungot stopped in mid sentence leaving me wondering how it ends. How rude. < 1389190490 251971 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i wonder why that restriction was imposed. i wanted to try < 1389190502 392343 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And again. < 1389190774 525294 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I think there's something screwed up in your hardwired sentence length mechanism. < 1389190774 632217 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: are you considering implementing a lang with that syntax? < 1389190793 500159 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Well, no. I can't even see how that makes sense. < 1389190793 825419 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: my bot has been down for quite awhile since i've been on sine a few times. i knew i could change it < 1389190822 345462 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric -- the channel where even the bots have bots. < 1389190978 872220 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1389191195 880247 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1389191430 508590 :{C}!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1389191456 737992 :{C}!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us JOIN :#esoteric < 1389192021 496464 :metasepia!~metasepia@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1389192021 574038 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1389192024 241941 :preflex!~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex QUIT :*.net *.split < 1389192186 1285 :metasepia!~metasepia@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389192186 78957 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389192186 79102 :preflex!~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex JOIN :#esoteric < 1389192307 35593 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: Poulet! < 1389192315 724366 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389192337 880399 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the most impressivest netsplit I ever seen. < 1389192348 994683 :metasepia!~metasepia@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1389192356 628295 :metasepia!~metasepia@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389192478 549500 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: you were on the small side < 1389192486 266280 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looked really minor to me < 1389192656 29760 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was on the miniature side. only my bot, that preflex karmic bot, and I were on it. < 1389193132 364029 :`^_^v!~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1389193132 715117 :mrhmouse!~jordan.br@firewall1.photobooks.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1389194150 604842 :ter2!~tertu@143.44.70.199 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389194311 778102 :`^_^v!~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1389195139 713478 :{C}!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1389197346 488253 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: who's your bot? < 1389197346 805182 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: they take an argument that i call with a selector function to get them started at a young audience. < 1389197545 220083 :{C}!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us JOIN :#esoteric < 1389197920 226415 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1389198393 474072 :augur!~augur@c-75-74-130-194.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1389198457 940862 :augur!~augur@c-75-74-130-194.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389198598 796523 :augur_!~augur@c-75-74-130-194.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389198601 537376 :augur!~augur@c-75-74-130-194.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1389198770 692315 :mrhmouse!~jordan.br@firewall1.photobooks.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, we have fungot again? < 1389198771 147597 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mrhmouse: are you new to scheme, exporting functions such as map. < 1389198817 263598 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh neat, Keymaker proved Forte TC < 1389198833 421718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with a horrendously slow construction, it's always great when that happens < 1389198889 969574 :augur_!~augur@c-75-74-130-194.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1389198918 334958 :augur!~augur@c-75-74-130-194.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389199289 93030 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keymaker is still alive? < 1389199326 829552 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: he avoids the IRC channel even more than I do < 1389199334 709926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we both care about esolangs more than the social stuff < 1389199794 810896 :mrhmouse!~jordan.br@firewall1.photobooks.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds reasonable. In the time that I've spent on #esoteric, I've seen more talk about traditionalangs, Unicode, and Finnish ball alcohol than esolangs. < 1389199877 332517 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1389199975 165928 :ter2!~tertu@143.44.70.199 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1389199987 710469 :ter2!~tertu@143.44.70.199 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389200091 822613 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i was wondering whether continued fraction arithmetic was turing-complete < 1389200120 342696 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well continued fraction and what else < 1389200130 398979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: huh, I don't know how it works < 1389200133 692161 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like a functional language with continued fraction as a function? < 1389200143 294949 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for instance, whether one could do arbitrary computation by adding up a list of real numbers in continued fraction representation < 1389200164 944514 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you allow real numbers, then yes < 1389200177 46883 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you can always find a real number containing exactly what you want < 1389200193 819983 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Find the real number containing the solution, divide it by 1 < 1389200196 199880 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bam! < 1389200198 230451 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but you might not be able to define it < 1389200213 17160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I guess that's where the "computable" in "computable reals" comes from < 1389200218 440589 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that is the problem < 1389200224 554991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :computable reals are TC, bounded-storage reals aren't < 1389200226 976893 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some are not even definable! < 1389200229 487535 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: that part is obvious. the less obvious part is whether you can find real numbers which don't require a turing-complete generator to add up to the real number you want < 1389200251 925800 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia : "real numbers that don't require a TC generators" are basically integers < 1389200261 409741 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computable reals have a cardinality of aleph naught < 1389200283 548713 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you allow more than integers, you get additions and such < 1389200287 140589 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: i can generate e with a sub-turing complete system. its continued fraction is a dead simple pattern < 1389200292 999720 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And additions plus some functional apparatus are already almost TC < 1389200319 140261 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1389200319 217616 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: "almost" < 1389200322 589004 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want < 1389200333 413364 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Markov did a nice article on how to generate computable numbers < 1389200367 550322 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically you need three computable integer functions < 1389200373 76853 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :f, g and h < 1389200398 267199 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you get x = (f(n) - g(n))/h(n) < 1389200412 359823 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this will converge to x with n going to infinity < 1389200469 721839 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1389200514 690690 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Errr < 1389200522 446207 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = (f(n) - g(n))/(h(n) + 1) < 1389200523 929055 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but f, g, and h might require a TC underlying system to compute them, yes? < 1389200525 857378 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :To avoid PROBLEMS < 1389200539 428318 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes, he defined them with µ-recursive functions < 1389200564 140741 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But < 1389200571 846620 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to do continued fractions < 1389200586 478628 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This will imply some sort of loop < 1389200600 996511 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might be able to replace the µ function with it maybe I guess? < 1389200614 745977 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it is also at heart the way of looping < 1389200669 46730 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1389201096 76016 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: i was thinking a way of generating continued fractions where each new term can depend on a constant number of previous terms, with basic arithmetic < 1389201126 51326 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: say, just addition, subtraction, and multiplicatio < 1389201127 56837 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :n < 1389201150 6571 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well you can just do addition and multiplication of relative integers < 1389201188 795874 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay just that then < 1389201214 207399 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that every continued fraction one can generate this way is nondecreasing < 1389201236 629461 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously not turing-complete < 1389201270 701598 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe not obvious < 1389201292 491803 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's clear you can't generate an arbitrary computable number this way < 1389201319 857556 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1389201349 770006 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-204-47.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1389201397 460728 :{C}!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1389201462 714231 :Bike!~Glossina@75-175-66-239.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389202245 739753 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1389202395 854133 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1389202761 917010 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us JOIN :#esoteric < 1389202855 174551 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@199.185.88.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389203333 108537 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.100.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389204381 50291 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1389204707 592690 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know, for a program called "Impress", LibreOffice Impress sure doesn't. < 1389204759 614198 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rimshot* < 1389204775 75525 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan Oh? What does glogbackup say in !logs? < 1389204775 152913 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1389205186 440098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1389206659 961050 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1389206664 509862 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1389206776 158535 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Excel also doesn't. So they're in good company. < 1389206910 19494 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1389206924 434338 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@199.185.88.147 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1389207374 501511 :mrhmouse!~jordan.br@firewall1.photobooks.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "Impress" the presentation one? < 1389207432 387088 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :uyyes. < 1389207445 578764 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny (I'm lagging). yes. < 1389207475 582961 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But at least this is good old-fashioned network lag, not a UI problem.) < 1389209113 724120 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us JOIN :#esoteric < 1389209385 878437 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1389209566 70976 :impomatic!~digital_w@87.114.58.47 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389209992 85761 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@199.185.88.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389210991 172292 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to add Dan Hibiki into the Puzzle Strike game. (However, in Puzzle Fighter they only send red gems, and Puzzle Strike doesn't have any red gems; it has only green.) < 1389212243 470345 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-57-25.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1389213689 409137 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the puzzle striker game? < 1389213913 303619 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@199.185.88.147 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1389214711 463411 :mrhmouse!~jordan.br@firewall1.photobooks.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Street Fighter spinoff, I believe < 1389215281 258823 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@199.185.88.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389217460 919227 :ter2!~tertu@143.44.70.199 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1389217480 63024 :ter2!~tertu@143.44.70.199 JOIN :#esoteric < 1389217820 21702 :ter2!~tertu@143.44.70.199 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1389217860 207522 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@vpn34-128.rz.hs-offenburg.de QUIT :Quit: MindlessDrone < 1389218344 236902 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1389218417 235049 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages-ludo < 1389218417 331329 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor said 3h 47m 22s ago: Oh? What does glogbackup say in !logs? < 1389218497 374275 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Gregor iirc it says something like that its logs will be quickly merged once glogbot returns. < 1389218497 491101 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1389218552 647314 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!logs < 1389218790 586268 :mrhmouse!~jordan.br@firewall1.photobooks.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anybody know if it's possible to get an input mode (in Windows) like Vim's digraphs? The chorded one is what I'm after (e.g. ^k l *) < 1389218912 98288 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1389218913 715916 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, as someone in the US interested in rail travel, what are your thoughts on http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/10555330/Japan-offers-to-lend-US-half-the-cost-of-Super-Maglev-train-between-Washington-and-Baltimore.html < 1389218959 730780 :Sorella!~queen@oftn/member/Sorella JOIN :#esoteric < 1389218981 865724 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first thought is "lol you can't build a bike shed for $8 billion in the US" < 1389218993 856476 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the japanese clearly aren't used to accounting for our beyond-ridiculous capital construction costs < 1389219007 523324 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : There's some nondeterminism in my sox. :/ <-- either use the axiom of choice, or use shoes instead hth < 1389219025 182330 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also don't be 7 hours idle. < 1389219037 641706 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maglev has a lot of problems, it needs totally different infrastructure everywhere < 1389219055 129846 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can't run high speed trains DC-Baltimore and continue them on to NYC < 1389219078 907171 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they aren't that much faster than high speed conventional rail < 1389219084 953508 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought the japanese were deep in depth already. < 1389219100 56988 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric : @tell Gregor iirc it says something like that its logs will be quickly merged once glogbot returns. // Depends on your definition of "quickly" < 1389219109 152484 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider "before the heat death of the universe" pretty quick. < 1389219115 423824 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's start with America getting some high speed rail of the form that existed in Japan and France 40+ years ago < 1389219120 167354 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it did almost certainly not use those exact words < 1389219134 889953 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that now exists in practically every other developed nation < 1389219154 938813 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :America is just not the place to innovate in rail in any form < 1389219163 675556 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :except norway. we also have ridiculous rail. < 1389219169 251120 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: It was before everybody else beat us :) < 1389219191 475520 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only innovation we do is rebuilding things that exist elsewhere from scratch because they aren't american enough < 1389219206 731838 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :You spelled "they don't have enough Jesus" wrong. < 1389219210 81450 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like CA High Speed Rail could use ERTMS but ewwww, it has "european" in the name, let's invent our own signalling system from scratch at incredible cost < 1389219235 517245 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: in Japan they call him Annual Gift-Giving Man and he lives on the moon. < 1389219409 640110 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Conventional Maglev technology is already in use on a number of short routes around the world, but is limited to a speed of around 267mph." < 1389219412 624061 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1389219442 343688 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is ONE maglev in the world with passenger service meeting that description < 1389219465 615013 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it connects Shanghai Pudong International Airport to the outskirts of the Shanghai Metro < 1389219531 743425 :Bike!~Glossina@75-175-66-239.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in there's only one limited to 267 mph, or only one on a short route < 1389219538 796119 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only other "maglevs" in the world are things in the style of airport people movers that get up to 60 mph at most < 1389219559 312116 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: there's only one that gets anywhere near 267 mph or even a speed that would be impressive in 1900. < 1389219570 635378 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, so, you're saying that a newspaper can exaggerate!? Wow! < 1389219580 896620 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also < 1389219582 960287 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you asked my opinion and there it is :) < 1389219589 579330 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the article does make it seem futurey < 1389219593 912537 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like future-y < 1389219612 315045 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Americans love futurey sounding transport crap that will never get built < 1389219622 598170 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we are abject failures at implementing technology that was already proven in 1970 < 1389219670 268855 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence HYPERLOOP < 1389219687 285108 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the design documents for hyperloop don't hold up to even slight scrutiny < 1389219719 201546 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1389219722 573271 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look, maglev is perfectly viable in Transport Tycoon, you just apply the conversion tool to the tracks. < 1389219732 207508 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thinking that a Silicon Valley billionaire will singlehandedly save us all with UFO technology is more plausible than thinking that the government and the railroad regulators could get their act together and join the 1970s < 1389219738 956092 :Bike!~Glossina@75-175-66-239.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie has a point < 1389219741 857030 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1389219899 773115 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@199.185.88.147 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1389221120 805289 :oeh!~oeh@213162068210.public.t-mobile.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1389221439 261156 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: Rebooting into Linux < 1389221440 587926 :oeh!~oeh@213162068210.public.t-mobile.at PART :#esoteric < 1389221590 273288 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1389221797 652928 :TodPunk!~Tod@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1389221810 738892 :TodPunk!~Tod@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1389224022 554807 :mrhmouse!~jordan.br@firewall1.photobooks.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1389225241 233955 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-178-249-81.maine.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1389225260 900955 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-178-249-81.maine.res.rr.com NICK :{C}