00:09:24 -!- rntz has changed nick to rntz^2. 00:17:04 I had some dream (I think just yesterday/today) and I should put it into the computer today. First I am reading something else but then I will do, please. 00:17:24 Please? 00:25:00 Bike: always be polite 00:26:29 http://www.theonion.com/articles/dollar-tree-ceo-officially-unveils-longrumored-foi,32684/ do you get it 00:40:18 I didn't know you can measure compound interest in hertz. But now I suppose I can understand it. 00:40:47 (Maybe) 00:42:05 Bike: yes hth 00:42:21 good 00:45:36 -!- conehead has joined. 00:52:48 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 00:59:17 zzo38: Finally, a use for picohertz? 01:05:25 **** quantum computing 01:12:30 -!- tertu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:12:54 -!- tertu has joined. 01:13:53 pikhq: Yes, I suppose that would be a use for it, then 01:14:08 Hmm, can you represent compound interest as hertz? 01:14:13 I think you would run into issues 01:14:47 Because 1% every one unit of time is not the same as 10% every ten units of time is not the same as 100% every hundred units of time 01:23:57 I think exponentials may have to be involved somewhere, which, for a unit, is most odd 01:25:04 what about coexponentials 01:25:14 ... logarithms? 01:27:56 I think it's log $ / s 01:29:01 logarithm-dollars per second? 01:29:11 Yes 01:29:17 anyway coexponentials are left adjoint to coproducts or something?? 01:29:21 That is the unit of compound interest 01:31:19 I think € is closer to an SI currency 01:33:27 -!- ^v has joined. 01:34:20 the unit euro is stored in a french vault 01:35:30 Taneb: Yes I am actually also unsure, for the same reasons as you, too 01:36:17 Surely the SI euro should be standardized as a constant of nature, such as the daily expenditure of a physics grad student 01:37:22 Or perhaps the marginal cost of a strange quark. 01:37:36 just pin it to the big mac and call it good 01:38:31 Now the real question is, what's the planck unit of money? 01:39:04 i think the smallest seriously used unit of money i've seen was the average cost of a semiconductor 01:39:13 oerjan: how come https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_presentation and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finitely_presented don't redirect to the same page 01:39:32 Yeah, but that's not Planck units. :) 01:39:52 oerjan: imo the former is v. obviously biased and should probably be more like the latter 01:42:36 Bike, what is the average price of a semiconductor? 01:43:46 a trillionth of a cent, or something like that 01:44:59 Bike: plz answer in dogecoins thx 01:45:35 So, about 1 DOGE. 01:46:05 Bike, another channel is asking what do you mean by "a" semiconductor 01:46:26 I'd guess "a transistor". 01:46:27 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:46:49 Taneb: imo they can ask Bike directly if they care so much 01:49:28 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:50:57 -!- Bike has joined. 01:53:00 i meant a transistor, yes 01:53:03 words are hard 01:54:02 and 'semiconductor' sounds cooler than 'transitor' even though just a stupid lump of silicon ore is semiconductive 01:54:51 Isn't... silicon ore most rocks? 01:55:34 Hmm 01:55:45 If time is money, then compound interest is log s/s 01:55:48 i'm not sure industrial silicon is extracted from silica 01:56:27 oh, it is 01:56:34 So compound interest is the logarithm of time to the timeth root 01:56:35 but anyway most rocks aren't silica 01:56:54 the way they get wafers is really cool https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czochralski_process 01:57:22 Phantom__Hoover, Hexham's in sandstone country 01:57:48 If time is money, then BTC provides a means of converting electricity into time. 01:58:22 you can also convert electricity to money by, uh... selling it to people 01:59:20 Or by electrolisis of, uh... solutions containing gold? 01:59:42 pikhq, solutions containing € 02:01:39 a solid solution between £ and $ 02:02:17 kind of want to make a fully mechanical bitcoin miner now 02:03:02 Anyway, I ought to sleep 02:03:21 what if our universe is just the proof-of-work for someone's cryptocurrency 02:04:24 then i shall make fun of god on internet forums. 02:06:58 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:25:23 There is various format tags for .MOD format; there is "M.K." which does not stand for Mahoney & Kaktus, but one tag used only once is "M&K!"; does that one stand for Mahoney & Kaktus, maybe? 02:29:33 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 02:55:26 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:57:14 * Sgeo_ vageuly plans on buying some bitcoins 02:58:59 oh for god's sake 02:59:02 why 02:59:08 why the fuck would you do that 03:01:05 Worst that could happen is I lose some money, right? 03:01:21 yes but... argh 03:01:34 consider how many purchases you could justify with that. 03:01:42 particularly, any purchase 03:01:45 look if you want to speculate you are far better off learning about investment in general rather than following this one specific fad 03:02:27 I have noticed myself buying stuff more often when I'd usually try to make do with free alternatives 03:02:44 All the documentation for .MOD format seems pretty bad. Some documents say the Fxx effect sets the speed for the next line, although OpenMPT affects it on the current line. 03:02:57 zzo38: don 03:03:08 don't different players render .mods differnetly sometimes? 03:03:22 I think Phantom__Hoover wants some bitcoins for christmas 03:03:35 well if you want to give me free money i'm game 03:03:51 i think i even had a wallet, i wonder if it has anything in it 03:05:31 Sgeo_: That may be true in some cases (as far as I know, most players don't emulate the Amiga hardware filter) 03:05:50 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:07:23 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:07:41 -!- LinearInterpol has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 03:08:36 -!- LinearInterpol has joined. 03:26:34 OK, I wrote about the dreams now 03:26:50 Tell me if you have anything in your dream to add to the report, too. 03:48:16 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:49:32 -!- muskrat has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:08:03 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg). 04:32:19 -!- Edward___ has joined. 04:32:25 anybody home? 04:32:33 nope. 04:32:54 I'm not familiar with IRCs. 04:32:59 this is strictly for esolang? 04:33:00 Welcome! 04:33:08 Yep, this channel is Esolang's. 04:33:17 LinearInterpol: use the welcome msg 04:33:22 `welcome Edward___ 04:33:24 i can't backtick 04:33:24 Great, I have a few questions, could I ask you? 04:33:25 Edward___: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 04:33:33 lol. 04:33:42 Edward___: sure, ask away. 04:33:48 (offtopic, but most messages here are off-topic) http://www.nytimes.com/1998/12/12/nyregion/slogan-causes-pencil-recall.html 04:34:16 Learned brainfuck about a year ago 04:34:23 "Do drugs" 04:34:26 smart advice. 04:34:28 And now I'm learning C, in order to work on my eventual undergraduate thesis 04:34:41 Which involves creating a language. 04:34:53 oh sweet! C is awesome. 04:35:07 So for a potential creator of a language... What's some broad advice you can give me? 04:35:14 Keep it consistent. 04:35:15 linearinterpol: Was that sarcasm? :-P 04:35:20 don't fuck it up 04:35:27 ion: about C or the drugs. 04:35:29 because both aren't. 04:35:30 :D 04:35:43 Thanks! I consider myself conversational with Python, and fluent in Java ;) 04:35:45 Edward___: have you taken a class in programming language design? 04:35:48 So C is a whole new beast. 04:35:59 but the cool thing about undergraduate theses is that nobody will care after you're done, so don't sweat it 04:36:02 No, I have yet to. 04:36:17 Well, my goal is to hope somebody cares, I want my PhD :) 04:36:18 Edward___: the key to designing a language is consistency. whatever symantics or syntax you give it, make sure it adheres to a strict set of guidelines. 04:36:38 -!- Sorella has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:36:42 design it in small chunks. 04:36:45 trust me, the only master's thesis anyone's cared about in the last two hundred years is shannon's, and you ain't him 04:36:51 Edward___: that would probably help. it forces you to become familiar with all the various paradigms, and the goals that are typically aimed at by language designers 04:36:52 Bike: +10. 04:36:56 Shannon's? Who is shannon? 04:37:04 claude shannon, look 'im up, cool guy 04:37:23 Great, I'd love to. 04:37:26 Thanks! 04:37:33 basically what i'm saying is, do take it seriously since presumably this has consequences, but don't worry too much about designing something that has to last 04:37:34 Also, I've learned a bit about paradigms. 04:37:52 Yeah, I got what you were saying :) 04:38:00 Edward___: how many paradigms have you written working code in? 04:38:06 Thanks for the advice nonetheless. 04:38:14 hmmm.... 04:38:33 I'd say 4 04:38:55 3 mains and 1.. extra? 04:39:09 Yeah, 3 mains and I looked at automata based 04:39:12 also, it's pretty easy to learn programming languages since you already know some. learn some that are far from what you know, like haskell or scheme (SICP is free and semi-about language interpreters) 04:39:20 since I'll be in the "Theoretical" focus for my major 04:39:22 or just both 04:39:29 LinearInterpol: the three main being imperative, functional, logical? 04:39:29 SICP is nice yet intimidating. 04:39:40 quintopia: correct. 04:39:40 Well shit, I find C completely different from Java and Python hahaha 04:39:51 well, it is 04:39:52 Edward___: get used to dealing with the "procedural" paradigm. 04:39:59 and manually managing memory. 04:40:00 but there are other completely different ones, see. lots of directions. 04:40:02 And yeah, imperative, functional, logical, and automata. 04:40:22 I like manually managing memory, because if I were to create a really indepth language, I should be good at that, yeah? 04:40:28 if you know automata personally i think writing a quick NFA regex engine is a nice way to learn something 04:40:31 Correct! 04:40:32 I like you. 04:40:42 Thanks! :) 04:40:47 I like me too, and I like your help. 04:40:47 We should hang out and discuss memory management schemes. 04:40:50 Edward___: i'd say it depends on what you're doing... 04:41:01 i like better languages which don't require such memory management :D 04:41:03 Well the thing is, I wouldn't have much to say about memory management schemes... 04:41:06 unless you want to lecture. 04:41:08 shachaf: “trypꙮphobia”. hth 04:41:09 so write one like that 04:41:11 loll. 04:41:19 wouldn't be the first time I've lectured. 04:41:28 last one I gave was non-determinism on deterministic platforms. 04:41:29 memory management is hard, but cool. obviously pretty hard to do well, what else is new 04:41:30 Well I'd love to listen. 04:41:45 or apparent deterministic platforms. 04:41:56 it was a snorefest. 04:42:04 ion: help 04:42:07 quintopia: I'd love to. I'd like to take care of memory management in my language (myself as opposed to letting another language do it) so that the user doesn't have to 04:42:17 hmmm... 04:42:18 what is context 04:42:21 Edward___: a word of advice. 04:42:21 Let me read up on that 04:42:29 very small word of advice. 04:42:31 start small. 04:42:36 shachaf: Do a google image search (or just a google non-image search if you’re squeamish). 04:42:41 you could use a language that has automatic memory management to implement your language and then neither of you would have to care. 04:42:59 i mean, just saying it's an option. 04:43:02 It's not caring, it's perfectionism haha :) 04:43:03 write a language that has context-independent instructions like brainfuck does. 04:43:13 I'd like to show that I can do it, for the purpose of getting attention ;) 04:43:23 oh man. 04:43:27 How would I begin writing said language? 04:43:33 Edward___: Design it. 04:43:37 literally. 04:43:41 like 04:43:49 Edward___: take a look at http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/ 04:43:53 right now probably floating around in your head you have tons of ideas. 04:44:01 yet always keep in mind: everything reduces to symbols. 04:44:13 does 4 reduce to a symbol 04:44:19 4 is a symbol. 04:44:37 so.. 04:44:39 i never seen it sym 04:44:45 Edward___: here's some ideas you should be familiar with and consider: pure object orientation (smalltalk), contracts (eiffel), orthogonality (algol), minimizing initial learning curve (PHP and others), garbage collection algorithms (mark-and-sweep in particular), pure recursion/tail recursion (lambda calculus, combinator languages) 04:44:47 I have lots of ideas hahaha 04:44:59 "4 is a symbol. so..." hahahaha 04:45:24 I've read about garbage collection algorithms, so I'm familiar with a small aspect 04:45:34 effectively the simplest "language" is an alphabet with a bunch of rules applied to it. 04:45:40 but, I've also learned lambda calculus and some other related theory 04:45:44 here is a book on garbage collection http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/rej/gc.html#Book 04:45:53 I mentioned automata earlier for the following reason... 04:45:53 so, I mean. 04:45:57 you can start with that. 04:46:22 Since I am in that "theoretical" subfocus, I'll be doing a lot of boolean algebra, discrete math, numerical analysis, etc... 04:46:35 and automata are a big working point. Anyway... 04:46:40 tcs is great. hope you can hack it better than me. 04:46:56 thanks! I'll check it out. 04:47:03 automata theory is fun. 04:47:15 but I've learned a lot about language design just from little side-notes in books about the theoretical stuff. 04:47:22 a little* 04:47:23 Edward___: a small word of advice. if you want a phd in tcs, don't just be satisfied with discrete math. take every math class you can fit into your schedule, whether it seems useful or not. 04:47:36 i regret not doing that 04:47:39 I am, I will be taking calc 3 next semester. 04:47:43 so is your undergraduate thesis have some kind of criteria to it or is it just "show me a language implementation fucker" 04:47:44 and the following another math 04:47:47 does your* 04:47:57 Well that's the thing, I'm actually working ahead. 04:47:58 by like... 04:48:00 2 years. 04:48:05 Bike: I'd like to think that the criteria was worded exactly like that. 04:48:18 But, I want to have an idea, and honestly, I'd just like to learn. 04:48:38 Quintopia: did you get a phd in tcs? 04:48:53 Edward___: no i couldn't hack it. quit with a masters 04:49:01 Ah, gotcha. 04:49:11 That's nice to hear.... haha 04:49:11 lol. 04:49:14 calc three is vectors right 04:49:16 fun stuff 04:49:21 yeah, multivariate. 04:49:22 fuckin america 04:49:24 fuck vectors. 04:49:29 I like it! 04:49:30 fuck your magnitudes. 04:49:32 that has like nothing to do with computer science but it rules 04:49:39 calc three for cs was fun. but i hear actual calc 3 was very different 04:49:46 I only need a direction. MY MAGNITUDE IS INFINITE. 04:49:53 my school doesn't have a calc 3 for cs... 04:49:59 lame... 04:50:01 LinearInterpol: but you have no direction. heisenberg you know 04:50:10 calc 3 for CS means calc 3 dumbed down, fuck that 04:50:11 I'm uncertain. 04:50:20 it's like those 'math for biologists' courses that are uniformly shitty 04:50:29 well, probably. 04:50:29 ah 04:50:31 Bike: not dumbed at all. just different focus. 04:50:32 Bike: there's a math for biologists? 04:50:33 holy shit. 04:50:33 I'm a bio minor 04:50:44 LinearInterpol: sometimes. 04:50:53 Just finished my first semester of bio...bio 2107 04:50:55 one cell plus one cell equals.. 04:50:55 the joke of course is that biologists are scared of math 04:50:56 got an A :) 04:50:59 ...FACK 04:51:15 Owen White: "Math is to physics as CS is to biology." 04:51:17 nowadays everybody has to know python to treat data or w/e 04:51:23 haha what the fuck? 04:51:27 what the hell. 04:51:29 that. 04:51:30 that isn't. 04:51:31 what. 04:51:33 no. 04:51:34 that's dumb as shit, i love it 04:51:41 hm? 04:51:43 lol. 04:51:53 Edward___: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obCjODeoLVw 04:52:07 very wonderful talk. 04:52:09 Misattributed I assume? 04:52:38 I'll save that to watch once I log off :) 04:52:40 i can't even imagine what thought process could lead to that quote, i love it 04:52:41 it does make sense in one respect 04:52:53 "well it's about like, agents" 04:53:05 computational biology being somehow akin to mathematical physics 04:53:09 "AGENT SYSTEMS! BUZZWORD! that applies to biology, right?" 04:53:18 "...right?" 04:53:22 "..stop laughing." 04:53:26 Well, physics is naturally dependent on math, yeah? 04:53:38 And advancements in biology have most recently come from computers 04:53:45 so maybe not CS 04:53:46 physics is naturally dependent on the entire field of formal science. 04:53:48 -!- mauke has quit (Disconnected by services). 04:53:53 but computers 04:53:56 yeah, but advancements in blender manufacturing have most recently come from computers. 04:53:58 -!- mauke has joined. 04:54:03 hahahaha 04:54:07 Bike: don't forget toasters. 04:54:12 that's different, but point taken 04:54:21 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif). 04:54:28 CS is to X as CS is to Y. 04:54:31 Hey, it was at the beginning of a book on Bioinformatics (maybe an essay) written by the guy who basically founded the field. 04:54:36 fully general simile 04:54:45 And i liked it! 04:55:00 that quit message.... 04:55:09 the badger? 04:55:12 yeah hahahaaha 04:55:16 cute badger 04:55:26 Anyway.... 04:55:28 Edward___: here, let me sum up CS in a few words. 04:55:30 badgers are terrifying irl though 04:55:37 okay 04:55:40 listening :) 04:55:44 anyway, when people say physics is based on math they're not just saying math helps physicists, they're saying it's a conceptual underpinning. 04:55:50 which, well, really isn't true of biology at all. 04:55:53 LinearInterpol: do it like dumdledore 04:56:00 CS is like playing with invisible legos that you can make yourself, and when you arrange those legos in a certain way, you can do amazing things that you couldn't have dreamt of. 04:56:11 -!- preflex_ has joined. 04:56:13 and you have an unlimited building space. 04:56:15 i should probably use full sentences and punctuation but fuck that nerd shit 04:56:26 ^ 04:56:27 -!- preflex has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:56:29 what 04:56:36 -!- preflex_ has changed nick to preflex. 04:56:36 and an unlimited amount of legos. 04:56:43 that's not CS. that's programming. 04:56:50 Shhhh 04:56:54 I like it. 04:56:57 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulien_Hogeweg oh, a woman. that's nice. 04:57:04 quintopia: oh shush your shit, it's CS. 04:57:09 You can make every saying a little fucked. 04:57:10 we're dealing with abstract machines and all sorts of theories. 04:57:14 let me play with invisible legos. 04:57:35 when i think of mathematical biology i just think of lotka though. 04:57:39 "Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes" -- probably not Dijkstra 04:57:39 So let's say I'm building Brainfuck. 04:57:45 or like, volterra. volterra's cool. 04:57:55 elliott: love it. 04:58:00 or kolmogorov but he's just the best at everything. 04:58:10 Have you written a brainfuck compiler yet? 04:58:12 Edward___: choose your alphabet, choose your rules, construct an abstract machine, implement it. 04:58:25 elliott: P.N. Dijkstra is definitely my favorite computer philosopher 04:58:40 elliott: I have seen that quotations too, but I think I have seen it attributed to Dijkstra 04:59:04 Either way I like that quotation 04:59:08 too bad optics is probably cooler than computer engineering, on the whole. 04:59:17 Edward___: oh right, i was going to mention kolmogorov machines on the above list. something worth knowing about. 04:59:27 Great, I'll look it up :) 04:59:37 kolmogorov machines! 04:59:51 zzo38: I think it is apocryphal. 05:00:19 Well...the implementation. 05:00:22 That's my concern. 05:00:35 just try writing one. brainfuck compilers are really easy 05:00:43 LinearInterpol: Surely I approach the project differently from a Fibonacci program... 05:00:45 your implementation is certainly dependent upon your choice of rules/alphabet. 05:00:49 as a first approximation, you can just replace every character with a bit of C 05:01:00 Edward___: understand that this field is entirely arbitrary. 05:01:15 Bike: that is true 05:01:22 . = puts("") 05:01:43 the simplest interpreter would be iterating over a string of symbols and modifying some state. 05:01:45 more like putchar(tape[i]) 05:01:47 rather printf("%c",arr[i]) 05:01:50 yeah 05:01:51 that's about it. 05:02:02 you don't even need I/O. 05:02:04 then you can examine why this implementation sucks (does it work on invalid programs? does it tell you how a program is invalid? is it fast? is it safe?) 05:02:22 Bike: what do you mean? 05:02:29 what do i mean by what 05:02:32 analysis of all possible programs. 05:02:39 invalid programs, sorry. 05:02:40 and analysis based on a set of conditions. 05:02:44 As in with errors? 05:02:51 programs with* 05:02:53 Edward___: "++]" isn't a valid brainfuck program, yeah? 05:02:53 Edward___: such as.. [[] 05:02:55 or something. 05:03:03 Gotcha. 05:03:12 Okay great. 05:03:20 Y'all kick ass. 05:03:31 And here my mom is saying I shouldn't talk to strangers... 05:03:42 that's a lie-to-hildren 05:03:46 a useful one tho 05:03:54 if i ever meet you i will sell you methylenedioxymethamphetamine so she has a point 05:04:15 walter? 05:04:28 is that you? 05:04:29 Heisenberg? 05:05:40 goddamn has everyone seen that television programme 05:05:42 Programs without matched [] are invalid brainfuck programs; it is why I suggested once that if the program's input is from the same stream, you should use ] to separate the program from the input (even though most implementations use ! instead) 05:06:19 i agree using ] is much more elgant; no need to expand alphabet 05:07:36 my 112 byte BF interpreter uses that convention too 05:07:46 tromp_: downside is it makes debugging harder. not that usually bothers esolangers. 05:08:44 It also means that ! may be used in comments like in implementations with separate program from input would do, and using ] in case of some kind of Godel numbering, it can help too I guess 05:13:32 what's this about Gödel numbering? 05:14:12 i like numbers 05:14:27 numbers are fun. 05:15:14 kmc: For example if you want the low three bits per number as the first command, and so on, and ] is zero. Hofstadter always used decimal, although I don't like that much. 05:15:30 ah i see 05:16:00 methylenedioxymethamphetamine != methamphetamine, kids 05:16:18 the former is a lot more fun 05:17:15 methylenedioxymethamphetamine 05:17:24 enedioxymethamphe 05:17:34 dioxymet 05:17:40 oxy 05:17:45 x 05:18:03 hmm. yep. much easier to pronounce 05:18:51 also it's shaped like a lizard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MDMA_(simple).svg 05:19:35 quintopia: i like your etymology 05:22:21 shit, it is 05:23:12 i met a guy who did research on psychoactive drugs and he told me that it's even more complicated than I thought 05:24:03 because two drugs which activate the same receptor with the same overall binding affinity might still produce a different distribution of receptor conformations inside the cell, which would trigger different signaling pathways 05:26:43 The entire report of my and other dreams are at: http://zzo38computer.org/misc/weird_dream/dream.txt They are in order of entry, which is not necessarily the order of occurence. 05:27:12 I know you can have fictitious events inside of other fictitious events, but what is it when you have a fictitious event logically *outside* of a fictitious event? (This happened in a dream once) 05:28:12 frame story? 05:29:25 I mean, it is actually inside and not outside, but it is logically as if it is outside. 05:29:38 zzo38: do you mean like waking up from a dream-in-a-dream? 05:34:43 kmc: No. My example is dreaming being someone else of even a different species or whatever, and then going to a place in the dream, that you have the belief that the real you has actually been there, even though that is fictitious and doesn't exist either. (And this belief cannot combine with the ones in context of the dream, due to the strange logic in use) 05:34:53 Hopefully that is clear enough to you? 05:35:34 you just have super weird dreams 05:35:39 i'm a bit jealous 05:38:15 Jealous? Are they so much weird compared to others, or is some other factor at work? Or, perhaps, both! 05:38:42 well, weird to me. i hardly ever dream. 05:47:19 When you do, what do you? 05:48:07 -!- kmc has set topic: [Just (), Nothing] >>= repeat | When you do, what do you? | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 05:48:18