00:00:04 <kmc> oerjan: hey TNT is pretty safe
00:00:13 <kmc> "TNT can be safely poured when liquid into shell cases, and is so insensitive that in 1910, it was exempted from the UK's Explosives Act 1875 and was not considered an explosive for the purposes of manufacture and storage."
00:00:20 <kmc> "Its potential as an explosive was not appreciated for several years mainly because it was so difficult to detonate"
00:01:46 <oerjan> i thought dynamite was safe nitroglycerine.
00:01:56 <kmc> "Consumption of TNT produces red urine through the presence of breakdown products"
00:02:15 <zzo38> Can FlooP be compiled into TNT?
00:02:21 <FreeFull> oerjan: What do you think dynamite is made out of?
00:02:30 <oerjan> FreeFull: nitroglycerine hth
00:02:53 <kmc> i think the problem with dynamite is that it's rendered safe by physical mixing, and the nitroglycerin can settle out gradually and such
00:02:55 <FreeFull> Oh, apparently dynamite isn't actually made from TNT
00:03:49 <kmc> that's correct, it's a mixture of nitroglycerin and sawdust / diatomaceaous earth / clay / something like that
00:03:53 <FreeFull> Dynamite is less safe than TNT
00:03:55 <oerjan> FreeFull: sheesh, aren't you swedish or something. or am i confusing you with FireFly again.
00:04:08 <HackEgo> FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure.
00:04:59 <oerjan> were you polish, or am i confusing you with ...
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00:06:40 <FreeFull> Is anyone else in here Polish?
00:06:58 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
00:07:04 <myname> so, are you a north pole or a south pole?
00:07:34 <oerjan> FreeFull: none of the two other polish sometime regulars i remember at the moment are here.
00:07:39 <FireFly> If they are both, would that make them bipolar?
00:08:17 <FreeFull> Ah, right, asiekierka sometimes comes here
00:18:37 <HackEgo> danddreclist 45: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
00:29:56 <Taneb> `unicode INVISIBLE TIMES
00:31:48 <kmc> `run unicode 'LEFT SQUARE BRACKET' 'INVISIBLE TIMES' 'RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET'
00:33:11 <oerjan> `unicode MAY YOU LIVE IN INVISIBLE TIMES
00:33:20 <oerjan> i'm sure that's in chinese somewhere
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00:52:37 <myndzi> what would invisible times be for
00:53:15 <zzo38> Presumably it would be used with mathematics, I suppose; I don't know what programs would use it
00:53:48 <myndzi> why would you need something to represent times in a string that can't be seen though?
00:54:19 <zzo38> Maybe it is used as the input for some computer algebra systems? I don't know.
00:54:39 <myndzi> and i thought unicode love hotel was weird
00:54:49 <zzo38> That, as well as a lot of things in Unicode, don't make much sense though.
00:55:07 <myndzi> it's okay because we have so much space right?!
00:55:41 <zzo38> No. Not with the way it is working.
00:57:33 <oerjan> `unicode isn't particularly flexible </understatementZ
01:11:34 <FireFly> eh invisible times kinda makes sense to me, although they could've called it just JUXTAPOSITION or something
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01:20:15 <kmc> well there's some halfassed attempt to be semantic, right?
01:20:56 <kmc> juxtaposition doesn't always mean multiplication
01:23:32 <kmc> there's also INVISIBLE PLUS
01:24:42 <kmc> you put it inside 3¼ to indicate that it means 3.25 and not 3*¼ = 0.75
01:25:27 <Phantom_Hoover> trying to represent characters on a semantic basis would be adorable if it wasn't so stupid
01:32:56 <myndzi> god help me if dealing with invisible characters ever becomes a part of everyday text editing
01:33:17 <kmc> `unicode INVISIBLE FNORD
01:33:21 <kmc> sure HackEgo
01:34:33 <zzo38> myndzi: Well, I don't have any such problems I deal with only ASCII so it isn't a problem.
01:38:30 <shachaf> kmc: what do i put in "-3¼", though
01:39:19 <shachaf> gotta have INVISIBLE MINUS
01:39:44 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't think so, you would just change the operator precedence for the invisible operators
01:39:48 <shachaf> hm maybe i should read The Illuminatus! Trilogy
01:39:55 <kmc> s/maybe/definitely/
01:40:06 <kmc> maybe i should read it for the third time
01:42:22 <shachaf> anyway i read another book instead of that book
01:42:28 <shachaf> so maybe i can read that book now
01:42:35 <kmc> which book did you read
01:43:52 <shachaf> and also probably several other books since whenever it was you gave me that book to read
01:44:32 <shachaf> it's slightly too big to conveniently carry with me
01:45:01 <zzo38> Do you like this Dungeons&Dragons game session 45? I still am not quite sure that the prisoner really is disabled yet
01:47:14 <zzo38> When do you intend to read it?
01:48:38 <kmc> http://sharpwriter.deviantart.com/art/Bill-Clinton-the-Lady-Killer-357619589
01:48:50 <shachaf> zzo38: I wasn't intending to read it.
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02:05:19 <zzo38> shachaf: Probably you should, if you are interested in it. (Anyways, your name is on it so I thought you might be interested.)
02:05:42 <zzo38> That is, if it is the kinds of stories and things that interests you, I suppose.
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02:58:56 <shachaf> zzo38: On the list, you mean?
03:00:02 <HackEgo> ExTwO: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
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03:55:43 <Bike> i have to say that fizzie has the right idea; i don't enjoy being a bus quite as much
03:56:15 <zzo38> Right idea of what?
03:57:03 <HackEgo> 328) <Phantom_Hoover> The system I kind of have in mind makes a flying train a natural consequence. \ 628) <oklopol> the point of a university is research and training new researchers. the point of the world is to enable this. \ 761) <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more,
03:57:10 <Bike> well,one of those.
04:08:41 <HackEgo> 820) <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
04:09:02 <Bike> to be fair i did have a wireless network
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04:19:36 <Sgeo_> So, there's a form element in HTML5 called <keygen>
04:19:50 <Sgeo_> Guess which browser's makers said that they will never support it?
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04:20:37 <zzo38> What does that form element mean?
04:21:07 <Sgeo_> It means create a public/private key pair+certificate, and send the certificate with the form when submitted (roughly, I think)
04:24:28 <Sgeo_> Going to read http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0043.html before yelling at IE
04:26:09 <shachaf> Bike: well, what if you were caltrain, though
04:26:53 <Bike> i wasn't. i was an amtrak superliner. very nice train despite amtrak.
04:27:48 <shachaf> have i ever been on amtrak
04:28:02 <Bike> they're not great. my train was like an hour late.
04:28:30 <Sgeo_> I've been on Amtrak once (well, twice if you count the return trip separately) recently (August), and once (twice) as a little kid
04:28:48 <shachaf> That's as many as four times!
04:28:59 <Sgeo_> And that's terrible.
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04:31:17 <kmc> which routes?
04:31:49 <Bike> i was on a north-south route in western oregon, don't remember names
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04:40:14 <shachaf> i'm actually not very aware of the existence of eastern oregon, come to think of it
04:40:25 <shachaf> or eastern washington, for that matter
04:40:44 <Bike> out here it's mostly empty.
05:01:01 * oerjan think he was in eastern oregon once
05:01:28 <oerjan> i vaguely remember some oregon trail museum
05:02:01 <oerjan> i was visiting remote relatives in idaho
05:05:27 <oerjan> well like fourth cousins or thereabouts.
05:07:43 <shachaf> copumpkin: do chu spaces belong in categories
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06:14:10 <kmc> can you play oregon trail at the oregon trail museum
06:14:14 <kmc> are they sick of people asking that
06:16:07 <zzo38> Are you sick of asking that?
07:10:44 <zzo38> Earlier this week while I was waiting in someone's office I read a book I found on their shelf, about graph theory.
07:13:15 <Sgeo_> kmc: what do you think about <keygen>?
07:23:08 <shachaf> zzo38: Whose office? Which book?
07:23:43 <zzo38> Some office I had to wait in for something. I do not remember the title of the book.
07:49:43 <Bike> Can someone walk me through how to do a github pull request
07:51:57 <kmc> https://help.github.com/articles/using-pull-requests
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08:23:26 <shachaf> so you can get command and conquer: red alert 2: yuri's revenge for free online these days and it works under wine
08:23:46 <shachaf> (multiplayer/skirmish-only)
08:25:49 <kmc> command and conquer: red alert 2: yuri's revenge: slaves to armok: god of blood: chapter ii: dwarf fortress
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08:28:55 <fizzie> Recently had an occasion to read some of my own quotes while looking for something; can't stop chuckling at my own "joke". (Guess that says something.)
08:29:38 <shachaf> was it <fizzie> Recently had an occasion to read some of my own quotes while looking for something; can't stop chuckling at my own "joke". (Guess that says something.)
08:29:45 <Bike> sent my first pull request!! only had to reset two passwords to do it
08:29:53 <HackEgo> 562) <fizzie dictionary> An 'ad hobbitem' fallacy is when you try to undermine someone's credibility by referring to how hairy his/her feets are.
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09:45:58 <mroman_> Ok. I might have some new idea based on my old ideas
09:46:13 <mroman_> Initially there's 1 Storage Cell
09:46:31 <mroman_> but if you put a large value in it, that large value somehow expands Space
09:46:52 <mroman_> but it also distorts surounding new cell
09:47:54 <mroman_> I.e if you put 8 in it, you get 5x5 cells of storage
09:52:35 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/LxT5wwU4 <- like that
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09:54:14 <mroman_> And only active cells distort surrounding cells
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11:10:39 <Taneb> HELP IM SLOWLY CHOKING ON A MARKS AND SPENCERS CHOCOLATE BROWNIE MIMI BITE
11:10:48 <Taneb> I DIDNT CHEW ENOUGH AND IT IS STICKY AND IN MY THROAT
11:16:31 <Taneb> There's a stupid bug I've got in Data.Group that nobody's noticed
11:16:43 <Taneb> Because a) nobody uses Data.Group
11:17:44 <Taneb> And b) there is only one type on Hackage it will happen for
11:18:42 <Taneb> (Dual (Endomorphism a))
11:18:54 <Taneb> Where k is a groupoid
11:25:10 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, should I give up waiting and start a new fortress
11:36:39 <Taneb> Fixing the dual problem!
11:36:52 <Taneb> (ab)^-1 = (b^1 a^-1)
11:37:37 <Taneb> So... (Dual a)^n = Dual ((a^-n)^-1)?
11:43:08 <int-e> is (ab)^-1 = (b^1 a^-1) a typo or a bug?
11:44:37 <int-e> as I see it, a |-> a^-1 is a homomorphism from a group to its dual
11:44:46 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Dual x `mappend` Dual y = Dual (y `mappend` x)
11:45:26 <Taneb> int-e, if I was better at words I would probably agree with you
11:45:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes
11:46:00 <Taneb> I think if you treat a monoid as a category with one object it is exactly CT dual
11:46:47 <int-e> Right, you turn around all arrows.
11:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, he means that ^-1 acts in the same way you've just described Dual
11:47:15 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes
11:48:22 <int-e> (And I was under the impression that we were discussing groups at the time. Obviously, this doesn't help much with monoids that don't have inverses.)
11:48:43 <Taneb> (yeah, this is about groups)
11:48:49 <Taneb> (all groups are monoids anyway)
11:49:42 <int-e> pages like http://www.tapscape.com/sheep-marketplace-scam-revealed-40-million-stolen/ that abuse CSS to entice people to enable Javascript make me angry. (Disabling the CSS instead helps, too.)
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12:51:12 <fizzie> Don't think I've seen a non-joke !list in a while.
12:52:53 <fizzie> "Welcome to rajaniemi.freenode.net in Helsinki, Finland. Our thanks to Aalto University for sponsoring this server!" Huh, didn't know our university had anything to do with it.
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13:08:36 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
13:08:51 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
13:09:05 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: about acro aol austro bc bct bf2c bfbignum botsnack brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes cat chaos chiqrsx9p choo cmd cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld id inc insanetemp jethro kraut lg lperl lsh map monqy num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python python2 redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 ruby_ sadbf sanet
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13:18:45 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX6262.hs:1:8: \ Could not find module `System.Random' \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
13:25:45 <nortti> "we've going to be programmin on these, unless intel somehow gets a stranglehold on the processor market but that is not going to happen"
13:26:47 <nortti> "if we're still using threads and locks in 40 years [2015] we should just pack up and go home as we have clearly failed"
13:27:23 <fizzie> !pirate Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:27:23 <EgoBot> Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:27:27 <fizzie> !pirate Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:27:28 <EgoBot> Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:27:40 <fizzie> (It's not always the same thing.)
13:27:45 <fizzie> !pirate Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:27:45 <EgoBot> Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:27:52 <fizzie> Well, I'm just not lucky.
13:28:00 <fizzie> [15:27:18] <fizzie> !pirate Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:28:00 <fizzie> [15:27:18] <EgoBot> Something that's not piratey beforehand, by Davy Jones's locker.
13:29:27 <nortti> "we are not going to have text files before, we will be representing data spatially"
13:31:09 <mroman_> Humanity has failed anyway
13:36:27 <fizzie> I guess EgoBot's live instance isn't web-repository-browseable, unlike HackEgo's. :/
13:36:47 <nortti> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pTEmbeENF4
13:37:39 <fizzie> !pirate I say, are you quite all right, man?
13:37:40 <EgoBot> I say, I'll warrant ye, be ye quite all right, lubber?
13:38:00 <Taneb> I'm streaming Dwarf Fortress
13:38:22 <fizzie> !pirate I'm not streaming Dwarf Fortress.
13:38:23 <EgoBot> I'm not streaming Dwarf Fertress.
13:38:45 <olsner> fungot: are you streaming dwarf fertress?
13:38:46 <fungot> olsner: http://www.schemers.com/ fnord is the viewfinder you can turn a function inside-out. does that make sense to me
13:39:02 <fizzie> fungot: Only you can answer that.
13:39:02 <fungot> fizzie: before then, he knew that, but befunge it is. 1, but it looks as though it were a procedure
13:40:24 <mroman_> !pirate I say, that's more like it
13:40:25 <EgoBot> I say, by Blackbeard's sword, that's more like it
13:40:46 <Taneb> I can't remember how to view it, though
13:41:18 <nortti> http://lwn.net/1999/0121/a/mec.html
13:42:17 <Taneb> I'm not playing in the terminal
13:42:22 <Taneb> I can't stream dwarf fortress
14:02:43 <mroman_> @msg boily Next time you may use alacritous .
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15:39:41 <Halite[tablet]> It's the only homoiconic language I've seen (that means it treats code as a data type just like numbers or strings)
15:41:52 <Slereah> Everything is the same type!
15:50:17 <Halite[tablet]> iPad says not charging, battery app 1 says charging, app 2 says not.
15:52:34 <Halite[tablet]> Battery app 1 has a graph. So far battery level has not changed between 5 mins.
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15:57:30 <FreeFull> Halite[tablet]: It's because all lisp programs are s-expressions
15:58:32 <FreeFull> Prolog is apparently homoiconic
15:58:39 <FireFly> What lisp dialects use m-expressions?
15:59:01 <FireFly> I mean, I know it (the HLL) was originally *meant* to use M-exprs, but AFAIK no dialect actually does that
15:59:14 <Halite[tablet]> FireFly: probably none. Doesn't mean they didn't exist.
15:59:47 <FireFly> Some concatenative languages could be considered homoiconic I think
16:02:07 <oerjan> what does it take to be homoiconic, what about underload? you cannot analyze the code in any way except by running it...
16:02:40 <oerjan> but there is definitely no real distinction between data and code.
16:04:46 <Halite[tablet]> If we had a program that took in just data and returned something to do with it
16:07:17 <augur> lots of languages are homoiconic
16:07:27 <augur> infact, probably most, but not in any useful way
16:08:02 <augur> few are like lisp, yes
16:08:07 <Slereah> How often do people still use self-modifying code, nowadays?
16:10:40 <augur> probably only smalltalk can really be claimed to have self modifying code in a true sense
16:11:02 <augur> lisp at best has code that can write more code and run it
16:11:10 <mroman_> does runtime modification of classes count?
16:11:16 <mroman_> like... adding new function to them?
16:11:38 <augur> sure. i guess ruby does that too quite typically
16:12:44 <augur> having some amount of higher-order-ness is really i think a main reason that self-modification isnt terribly common
16:13:17 <Halite[tablet]> Is there a tool to help me make a programming language?
16:13:49 <augur> Halite[tablet]: haskell is a good language to design other languages in, i feel
16:14:00 <mroman_> Halite[tablet]: I like Haskell
16:14:16 <mroman_> You can get started really quick with Parsec, a Statemonad and a simple eval loop
16:14:34 <augur> Halite[tablet]: sure it is
16:14:42 <augur> just not in as obvious a way as lisp
16:14:47 <augur> but thats really a benefit for haskell
16:14:52 <Slereah> Is Neil Patrick Harris homoiconic?
16:15:15 <augur> haskell programs are ultimately just values in a haskell data type
16:15:28 <augur> its not implemented that way per se, but template haskell lets you expose some amount of that
16:16:11 <augur> but homoiconicity in your metalanguage isn't terribly important
16:16:53 <mroman_> Then you can use the CompilerProvider Thingies
16:17:08 <augur> writing a language in haskell is really quite easy tho
16:17:25 <augur> you can write a (simple) lisp in an hour maybe?
16:18:10 <augur> well, to add fancier features like macros or whatever would take a bit more time, because you'd have to design it all
16:18:18 <augur> but the core functionality is easy
16:18:31 <Slereah> I guess all you really need is a language with an eval function, though, no?
16:18:44 <Slereah> And it becomes easy for most cases
16:18:52 <Slereah> Translate the statement, evaluate the translation
16:21:54 <mroman_> You can write a simple Lisp in an hour in Haskell
16:22:39 <augur> well thats because both are LC inspired
16:29:06 <ion> Hah, the menus and the search function at the bottom. http://store.steampowered.com/
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16:37:21 <augur> Halite[tablet]: what are you talking about
16:37:53 <mroman_> I gotta install Haskel on my new Win8 Laptop too
16:38:08 <Halite[tablet]> Whenever I want to split arguments in my language, it will always split the arguments in the arguments and fail
16:38:41 <augur> what does that even mean
16:39:04 <oerjan> INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER
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16:41:37 <oerjan> BUT THAT WILL INCREASE ENTROPY FURTHER
16:42:00 <quintopia> zzo38: on a scale from 1 to 10, how much of a LaTeX expert are you?
16:42:47 <oerjan> at least 11 for the latter.
16:44:53 <quintopia> oerjan: when you think of me, what color/image/fruit/animal/appliance/whatever comes to mind. what concrete noun would be best associated with me?
16:46:20 <quintopia> Halite[tablet]: but your nick is orange. mine is white. :P
16:47:15 <Halite[tablet]> Yours is -topia, so either yoghurt or Tropica fruit drinks come to mind
16:48:22 <Halite[tablet]> And with a posh invitation paper to invite it to my mind
16:48:28 <quintopia> -topia just means place, so why would it not be a place instead of a drink?
16:51:46 <mroman_> Halite[tablet]: Are having trouble parsing your language?
16:52:31 <mroman_> also my freaking headache is so bad I have trouble reading...
16:53:32 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know LaTeX, but I know TeX. I still don't know quite how much on such a scale, however.
16:56:15 <quintopia> Halite[tablet]: i mean what language are you parsing
16:57:21 <mroman_> You could write an Interpreter for Spacefish
16:57:26 <zzo38> quintopia: Why do you want to know how much of a TeX expert am I anyways?
16:57:28 <mroman_> preferably with JS and animated canvas stuff .
16:58:41 <quintopia> zzo38: obviously so i can ask you difficult questions if i am trying to write some TeX file.
16:58:42 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm afraid i cannot answer properly, since "orange" popped into my mind and that was probably because it was written on the next line.
16:59:09 <quintopia> oerjan: but i like the color orange. do you mean the fruit?
17:00:36 <oerjan> quintopia: i like both.
17:00:58 <quintopia> oerjan: so blood oranges and yellow oranges just won't do?
17:01:03 <oerjan> although perhaps something sweeter than the big oranges.
17:01:19 <oerjan> quintopia: just be my clementine
17:01:34 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, you can ask questions anyways; I do know a lot about it and have done things with it even sorting and multiple columns and other things. What is it you are trying to do?
17:01:44 <quintopia> they are so easy to peel and eat and don't make a mess
17:02:12 <quintopia> zzo38: nothing at the moment. i'll let you know if somethign comes up.
17:02:36 <mroman_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Spacefish <- need some brainstorm buddy
17:03:02 <mroman_> It should be possible to just place Max Values at some cells and then place the actuall values you are interested about on the outer edge
17:03:09 <mroman_> i.e where the distortion is minimal
17:03:15 <mroman_> which means the distortion is 1
17:03:33 <mroman_> then one should be able to reconstruct the stored value by subtracting 1
17:04:04 <mroman_> you can't store 255 in such a cell
17:04:41 <mroman_> i.e it wraps around to 0, subtract 1 and you have 255 back
17:06:31 <quintopia> mroman_: your reasoning sounds fine
17:06:38 <mroman_> also if you put a 254 in it, it would be distorted to 255
17:06:58 <mroman_> and that means, that 255 now influences values you put in the other edges
17:07:17 <quintopia> mroman_: does every + or - cause a distortion?
17:07:34 <quintopia> like doing + to a 15 will suddenly distort cells even further away?
17:07:36 <mroman_> If you increase a value, you increase it's range of distortion, yes
17:08:18 <quintopia> mroman_: so what happens if I do a -+ to the start cell?
17:09:09 <Halite[tablet]> You will affect other cells with a change. Does that mean the other cells affect yet others?
17:09:10 <mroman_> also.. if you decrease it the space shrinks
17:09:35 <mroman_> quintopia: It warps around to 255
17:09:44 <mroman_> then you increment it which wraps around to 0
17:10:26 <quintopia> mroman_: so what happens if i do a ->>>>>>>>-+<<<<<<<<+
17:11:33 <quintopia> also, what happens if i do ->>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<+
17:13:19 <mroman_> the - would decrement the cell's value 1 to 0
17:13:35 <mroman_> then you go back to the 255 cell
17:14:21 <mroman_> I figured every active cell has to be "connected" to the initial cell
17:14:32 <mroman_> and if that connection is gone, the active cell vanishes
17:14:59 <mroman_> i.e you end up with only one active cell (the inital cell) with value 0
17:15:05 <quintopia> so then i couldn't move way off into space doing [->>>>>>>-<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>]?
17:15:25 <mroman_> or the second possibility would be
17:15:42 <mroman_> that you have two active cells
17:15:53 <mroman_> and there is actually no "space" between those
17:16:10 <quintopia> when space disappears, the distortion disappears too?
17:16:11 <trout> 9/20 packets received (45.0%) 1963.789 min / 2440.817 avg / 2866.578 max
17:16:28 <mroman_> quintopia: The distortion is actually what causes space to exist
17:17:22 <quintopia> mroman_: so implementation-wise, you have to watch the cell to see if it is incrementing or decrementing to or from a power of two, and if so, run out and do a whole bunch of distorting or undistorting?
17:17:49 <mroman_> Once a cell changes it's value you have to adjust other cells
17:18:07 <mroman_> possibly deleting cells and/or shrinking the space
17:18:22 <quintopia> mroman_: okay, so let's say ->>>>>>>+<<<<<<<++ creates two separate 1s. would another > take me back to the second 1?
17:18:40 <mroman_> I'm probably gonna go with the restriction, that every active cell must be within reach to the initial cell to keep existing
17:19:13 <mroman_> quintopia: No. The second one would disappear
17:19:21 <quintopia> mroman_: "within reach" meaning "connected to a cell that is within reach of the initial cell"?
17:19:46 <mroman_> quintopia: Or in other terms: If a cell is not distorted by any other cell, it vanishes
17:19:59 <trout> quintopia: wireless
17:20:34 <quintopia> mroman_: so a cell could be distorted by another cell even if it contains zero?
17:20:54 <mroman_> but that would allow you to create two cells distorting each other outside the range of the initial cell :)
17:21:24 <mroman_> quintopia: Which cell contains zero?
17:21:35 <mroman_> A cell containing zero does not distort any other cell
17:22:00 <mroman_> It's undistorted value might be 255
17:22:18 <mroman_> but due to some influence it's visible value is (255 + 1 = 0)
17:23:08 <mroman_> The value 2 in the initial cell distorts the cell to the right by 1
17:23:19 <mroman_> which means the decrement will set it to zero
17:24:26 <quintopia> the cell to the right will become 2
17:24:34 <quintopia> which will distort the original cell to 5
17:25:37 <mroman_> the cell to the right is not considered an active cell
17:25:59 <mroman_> it becomes active ones you change it's value
17:26:00 <quintopia> okay what if i did ++++>-+^-+<-+<-+v
17:26:20 <myname> what is this distortion stuff all about?
17:26:23 <FireFly> is there a spec for this brainfuck derivative thing?
17:26:29 <mroman_> that would distort the original cell yes
17:27:24 <quintopia> okay, so what about ++++>-+<+++. what value does initial cell contain?
17:28:14 <mroman_> I.e distortion does not cause other distortion :)
17:28:30 <Vorpal> Oooh this bf variation actually sounds somewhat interesting.
17:28:37 <mroman_> quintopia: You initialize to 4, which means the cell to the right is distorted by two
17:29:01 <mroman_> which does not distort the initial cell because 1 /2 = 0
17:29:06 <mroman_> then you increment it back to 2
17:29:11 <mroman_> which distorts the initial cell by 1
17:29:40 <mroman_> which distorts the cell to the right by 4 making it become 6
17:30:04 <mroman_> so initial cell: 8, cell to the right: 6
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17:30:46 <quintopia> so the fact that the cell to the right is active doesn't mean that distortion to it propagates another further than it?
17:31:48 <quintopia> but... ++++>-+<+++>-+ should put the original cell to 10?
17:32:07 <mroman_> I'm not sure if it is problematic to propagate it further
17:32:22 <mroman_> you could say that 6 distorts the initial value again
17:32:51 <mroman_> which would distort the cell to the right now by 5
17:33:05 <mroman_> and then it should stop, right?
17:33:08 <FireFly> I don't get the distinction between initialisation and mutation
17:33:17 <quintopia> but then it becomes very difficult to set cells to arbitrary values yes?
17:34:30 <FireFly> If I ++++++++, would that affect surrounding cells as in the second example in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Spacefish#Storage ?
17:34:32 <mroman_> according to my esolangs.org wiki page the 6 would distort the initial value back
17:34:38 <mroman_> it would become 11 in that case
17:35:09 <quintopia> mroman_: this page needs Categories
17:35:58 <FireFly> mroman_: yes, just 8 +'s, which would presumably set the initial active cell to 8?
17:36:05 <FireFly> but I'm not sure how it affects the surrounding cells
17:36:10 <mroman_> the example is incorrect though :)
17:36:14 <mroman_> that's an early made up sketch
17:36:35 <quintopia> mroman_: if it propagates further it could be that -+ changes has a net (negative) effect on a cell, right?
17:36:43 <FireFly> but would ++++><++++ do the same thing?
17:36:50 <mroman_> quintopia: There could be very weird wrap around effects yeah
17:36:59 <mroman_> like a cell's value is 250 and the next cell has uhm...
17:37:03 <quintopia> mroman_: i mean not wraparound, just distortion
17:37:05 <FireFly> why wouldn't it propagate distortion for setting the cell to 1, then to 2, then to 3, then ..., to 8
17:37:15 <mroman_> it would distort the 250 to 10
17:37:31 <mroman_> which would distort the cell to the right less
17:37:37 <mroman_> and that's the problem with propagation
17:39:17 <FireFly> Then I'd expect it to add \sum_{i=1}^8 \log_2{i} to the immediately surrounding cells
17:39:18 <mroman_> FireFly: A cell has an "actual value" and a "visible value"
17:39:30 <mroman_> the cell to the right of the initial cell has the actual value 0
17:39:37 <mroman_> but if you increment the initial cell to two
17:39:48 <mroman_> the visible value of that cell changes to 1 (due to distortion)
17:40:09 <mroman_> the actual value is still 0
17:40:15 <mroman_> but the distortion is now 4
17:40:19 <mroman_> making the visible value 4
17:40:34 <quintopia> mroman: like for instance ++++++>+++<->-+ what is the value in the second cell? before and after the -+?
17:40:40 <FireFly> Hrm, sounds like distortion would be tricky to calculate when multiple nearby cells may affect it
17:41:09 <mroman_> Ok. Initial Cell = 6, then move to the right
17:41:15 <FireFly> Seems hard to tell whether a particular operation distorts a particular cell, if you have to check if another nearby cell affects it too
17:41:19 <mroman_> increment it by 3 but it has a distortion of 3
17:41:48 <mroman_> decreasing the distortion to two
17:42:07 <mroman_> so the cell to the right becomes 3 + 2 = 5
17:42:40 <quintopia> mroman_: you miscalculated, but also, i meant ++++++>+<->-+
17:43:20 <mroman_> I should write a 1D interpreter :)
17:44:40 <mroman_> quintopia: You set the initial cell to 6, then increment the cell to the right making it become 4 which distorts back the original cell by two making it become 8
17:44:59 <FireFly> 8>2>8<<-- where numbers denote number of +es, would leave the middle cell at 2+4 = 6?
17:45:17 <mroman_> then you move back, decrement it to making the cell to the right uhm...
17:46:26 <mroman_> so that doesn't change the value of the cell to the right
17:47:09 <mroman_> FireFly: 8>2> causes the second cell to become 6, yes
17:47:20 <mroman_> and the first cell to become 9
17:47:55 <FireFly> I realised the third 8 would mess with the initial cell too
17:48:18 <FireFly> mroman_: would that retroactively affect the middle cell too?
17:48:48 <mroman_> also the third cell is distorted by 1 (from the 2) + 2 (from the 8)
17:49:18 <mroman_> which distorts the first and second cell :)
17:52:55 <quintopia> mroman_: http://pastebin.com/p0gP83Nh
17:53:05 <quintopia> here is an example of -+ having a net negative effect
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17:55:19 <FireFly> Keeping it to 1D/2D is probably easier to visualise
17:55:22 <quintopia> i agree that a 1d version would be hard enough
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17:59:21 <quintopia> then there should be a solution to immediately jump to the equilibrium values...
18:03:59 <mroman_> It's going to be though to write an interpreter for that :D
18:05:41 <quintopia> mroman_: i feel like it would be easier just to completely separate the distortion value from the hidden value
18:05:43 <mroman_> It might even be the case, that the result depends on which cell the interpreter updateds first
18:06:16 <quintopia> mroman_: only let hidden values create distortion, and only add the distortion in when doing computation on the cell's value
18:06:35 <quintopia> (although, i don't know if this is actually "easy" or makes a difference at all...
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18:07:38 <mroman_> I have the feeling that the result might depend on whether an interpreter updates the cell to the left first or if he updates the cell to the right first
18:14:10 <Vorpal> mroman_, hm, why not apply both at once?
18:18:42 <mroman_> It's currently just an idea
18:30:25 <ion> Affected bones would glow a greenish-white colour in the dark. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phossy_jaw
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18:49:20 <mroman_> Everybode is welcome to write an interpreter or contribute to/for Spacefish :)
19:08:02 <mroman_> Are you trying to troll me?
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19:28:08 <kmc> https://twitter.com/Gequeoman/status/406485957442285568
19:31:23 <mroman_> Let's hope there's some session id in it so somebody can hijack it
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19:59:13 <nortti> http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/12/01/047207/dial-00000000-to-blow-up-the-world
20:02:00 <Bike> nice and easy to remember
20:10:09 <kmc> and chickens
20:10:23 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Peacock#Chicken_power
20:10:43 <kmc> "It does seem like an April Fool but it most certainly is not. The Civil Service does not do jokes." ah that dry british sense of humour
20:13:25 <Bike> i wonder if anyon'es written a dedicated thing about the storied history of chickens in the cold war
20:14:08 <Bike> there's that, there's skinner's thing... maybe biopreparat tried to invent avian flu at some point
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20:39:14 <ais523> [21:39] [CTCP] Received CTCP-TIME reply from ais523: Sun Dec 1 21:39:02 2013.
20:39:48 <ais523> nah, look at the timezone
20:40:17 <zzo38> It isn't new year yet.
20:40:23 <zzo38> (Except the liturgical year)
20:40:48 <quintopia> not something i would have thought to look for without prompting
20:43:02 <ais523> in a ctcp-time response?
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20:48:09 <zzo38> Do you think someone who is deaf and dumb for his entire lifetime can write music?
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20:50:03 <tswett__> @djinn ((((a -> e) -> e) -> a) -> e) -> e
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20:54:03 <nooodl> ais523: cool, where in france are you?
20:54:24 <ais523> it's like two towns across from Paris in the south-east direction
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20:54:49 <shachaf> kmc: oh, there was a whole second discussion about that two-line patch where it was reverted?
20:55:11 <kmc> discussion on that commit? yes
20:55:15 <kmc> i've been avoiding that
20:55:44 <shachaf> and i guess also twitter discussion
21:00:58 <quintopia> zzo38: only if he learns to play pinball first
21:02:46 <kmc> quintopia++
21:04:12 <ais523> I can read a smallish proportion of it, but can't understand spoken french, and can't speak it any better than barely intelligibly
21:05:03 <quintopia> do you have french-speaking friends around to smooth your way, or just depending on the ubiquity of english?
21:05:31 <ais523> it's a conference, everyone at the conference itself speaks English
21:05:50 <ais523> and enough of them speak French that so long as someone else is around, I can mostly navigate the non-conferency bits
21:06:02 <kmc> what conference?
21:06:39 -!- nisstyre has joined.
21:07:16 <ais523> it's a workshop on bounded linear logic
21:07:17 <ais523> not sure if it has a name
21:07:41 <shachaf> did you know chu spaces are a model for linear logic
21:07:57 <shachaf> "Just as !A weakens A to a poset (when K=2), ?A dually strengthens A to a distributive lattice, the dual notion to a poset." etc.
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21:09:51 <shachaf> and ^_|_ is just transposing the matrix and so on
21:11:46 <ais523> huh, how does Oj742_smartlock beat timer clears?
21:12:36 <ais523> ah, it tries to shudder
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21:14:05 <ais523> in general, it just seems like a cleverer version of defend9, though
21:14:14 <ais523> which is great, I thought defend9-style programs had no chance nowadays
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21:14:47 <kmc> it should have a bounded linear name
21:15:21 <kmc> shachaf: what are ! and ?, also what are chu spaces, help
21:17:09 <shachaf> kmc: i think !X means "as many as you want of X"
21:17:21 <shachaf> but someone who knows what they're talking about might correct me
21:17:44 <shachaf> (and ?X means "as many as i want of X"? maybe? help)
21:18:05 <shachaf> and chu spaces are the best thing but i don't understand them very well yet
21:19:24 <ais523> ?X means "an X that you don't have to use if you don't want to"
21:19:26 <shachaf> i think ! is like a comonad and ? is like a monad?
21:19:34 <ais523> normally in linear logic, you can't throw data away
21:19:56 <Phantom_Hoover> so what, a chu space is just an arbitrary bunch of subsets?
21:20:14 <shachaf> wait, wasn't ?X "you have to use exactly N xs and i specify what N is"?
21:20:24 <ais523> no, that's just X by itself
21:20:32 <shachaf> Isn't X itself "exactly 1"?
21:20:37 <ais523> I never work with the whole linear logic
21:20:37 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Not even subsets exactly, since you drop extensionality.
21:21:00 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: But see http://chu.stanford.edu/ or something.
21:21:36 <shachaf> I remember ! being associated with comonoids.
21:22:19 <shachaf> (Not comonoids in Chu in general, which are also interesting things.)
21:22:32 <kmc> trapped in chu space, send help
21:22:57 <shachaf> (If you solve http://thue.stanford.edu/puzzle.html about comonoids in Chu, you'll win a prize from Pratt!)
21:24:55 <shachaf> kmc: do you know topological space
21:25:00 <shachaf> chu space is a bit like that
21:25:02 <kmc> i know the definition
21:25:05 <kmc> can't do anything w/ them
21:25:33 <kmc> "chu space" seems to be one of those concepts like "category" which incorporates all of math by being incredibly general
21:27:17 <shachaf> "One can nevertheless reasonably ask where the vein of rich mathematical structures starts to peter out. The answer is that, in at least two technical senses, Chu spaces are a universal Theory of Everything."
21:27:51 <shachaf> but it's not so general as to be uninteresting
21:28:19 <shachaf> or maybe it is, i don't know
21:28:46 <FireFly> spec98 says # "moves the IP one position beyond the next Funge-Space cell in its path"; how does that interact with wraparound?
21:29:48 <FireFly> i.e. would 'x #' execute x once, or on and on forever? cfunge seems to go with the latter, so I'm guessing that's the correct interpretation
21:30:04 <shachaf> kmc: do you know the perspective of "observability" in topological spaces
21:30:22 <shachaf> e.g. http://blog.sigfpe.com/2008/02/what-is-topology.html
21:31:09 <ais523> FireFly: it's actually normally considered an officially ambiguous part of the spec
21:31:17 <ais523> Mycology doesn't complain at you whatever you decide, for instance
21:31:32 <ais523> although it will mention it, in passing
21:31:50 <FireFly> The former interpretation would be more useful for golfing
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21:52:15 <kmc> https://gist.github.com/0xabad1dea/7740977 on topic!
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22:13:44 <Taneb> What's the non-commutative group with the smallest order?
22:15:15 * kmc used to know this
22:15:17 <kmc> think it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihedral_group_of_order_6
22:16:20 <Taneb> "The smallest non-abelian group has 6 elements."
22:16:25 <Taneb> First sentence of that page
22:18:48 <kmc> `thanks HackEgo
22:18:49 <HackEgo> Thanks, HackEgo. ThackEgo.
22:18:56 <kmc> `paste bin/thanks
22:18:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/thanks
22:20:26 <kmc> `thanks eeeeeeexxxxxxx
22:20:27 <HackEgo> Thanks, eeeeeeexxxxxxx. Theeeeeeexxxxxxx.
22:21:03 <kmc> `run echo eeeeeeexxxxxxx | perl -pe 's/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/;'
22:21:41 <kmc> oh the second carrot means not
22:21:47 <kmc> `thanks xxxxxxeeeeee
22:21:48 <HackEgo> Thanks, xxxxxxeeeeee. Theeeeee.
22:22:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nothanks: not found
22:23:24 <Taneb> groups does not have a bug in it
22:23:28 <Taneb> My mind was double-wrong
22:24:09 <Taneb> I love it when I'm double-wrong
22:24:19 <Taneb> It's all the best bits of being right, AND all the best bits of being wrong
22:25:11 <kmc> what's 'groups'
22:25:23 <kmc> i don't like it when a program has the same bug in two ways though
22:25:46 <kmc> it can take forever with the usual approach of "make one change and see if the bug went away and revert if not"
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22:59:09 <Taneb> kmc, Haskell library with a Group class
22:59:30 <Taneb> It may have been me thinking about it, seeing a shortcut, then forgetting about the shortcut
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23:46:51 <Taneb> The Brogue code looks like I could concievable understand it well enough to modify it if I wanted to
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23:58:07 <Phantom_Hoover> i didn't realise until now that bitcoin is, like, inherently designed to collapse once mining becomes unprofitable