00:00:21 <oerjan> both reducing to #P is obvious.
00:00:57 <kmc> ah, yeah, i'm wrong
00:01:09 <kmc> "The relationship between BPP and NP is unknown: it is not known if BPP is a subset of NP, NP is a subset of BPP or if they are incomparable."
00:01:37 <Bike> P is still a subset of BPP though, right
00:04:38 <shachaf> nooodl: genericLength is almost never a good idea.
00:04:44 <shachaf> Pretty much the only use case is lazy naturals.
00:05:20 * oerjan unplugs laptop, just in case
00:06:07 <oerjan> it's about time for the monthly recommended uncharging, anyway
00:07:27 <kmc> shachaf: what if my list has more than 2^64 elements? er hmm...
00:07:52 <oerjan> i guess that's more interesting on 32-bit machines
00:08:21 <kmc> i'm so over 32-bit machines
00:08:28 <shachaf> kmc: With 64-bit Int it doesn't matter much realistically. With 32-bit Int it can matter, but you should *still* not use genericLength.
00:08:32 <lambdabot> genericLength (_:l) = 1 + genericLength l
00:08:41 <kmc> maybe by the time Servo is a product even phones will all be 64-bit
00:08:46 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
00:08:46 <kmc> that would be cool
00:09:01 <int-e> > map Seq.length (iterate (\s -> s <> s) (Seq.singleton ())) !! 63
00:09:08 <kmc> 32-bit architectures are a real problem if you want lightweight threads because there isn't enough address space for all the stacks
00:09:20 <lambdabot> poll provides: poll-list poll-show poll-add choice-add vote poll-result poll-close poll-remove
00:09:29 <lambdabot> poll-show <poll> Shows all choices for some poll
00:09:53 <oerjan> @poll-add remove@src makeitactuallywork
00:09:53 <lambdabot> usage: @poll-add <poll> with "ThisTopic" style names
00:10:39 <oerjan> @choice-add remove@src makeItActuallyWork
00:10:39 <lambdabot> New candidate "makeItActuallyWork", added to poll "remove@src".
00:10:51 <oerjan> @vote remove@src makeItActuallyWork
00:10:51 <lambdabot> The "remove@src" poll is closed, sorry !
00:11:10 <int-e> @poll-show remove@src
00:11:22 <Taneb> oerjan, what's your favourite turing tarpit
00:12:13 * int-e gives up on tab removal (with bfgolf rules; no negative numbers), after ,[[>+>+<<-]>-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[>.<[-]]>[-]<]]]]]]]]>[.[-]]<<,] and the slightly longer >,[>>+++++++++[>+<-<<-[>]>]>[>[>]<[<<<+>>>-]<[-]<<.>>]>[-]<<<,]
00:15:45 <oerjan> Taneb: underload or ///, maybe slightly the former
00:16:23 <oerjan> wait is this for your essay
00:16:52 <oerjan> THIS IS A GREAT INVASION OF PRIVACY AND I WANT ROYALTIES
00:17:17 <Taneb> I just wanted an example of a turing tarpit
00:17:17 <kmc> Taneb is writing an essay?
00:17:26 <Taneb> kmc, I have to write an essay in the next 9 or so hours
00:17:42 <Taneb> About a classic Computer Science paper of my choice
00:17:47 <Taneb> I chose On Computable Numbers
00:17:58 <Bike> shoulda done five worlds. smh
00:18:12 <oerjan> if you want it really tarpitty you can do underload with just :()^ or /// with just /\
00:18:34 <shachaf> Taneb: can i have royalties too
00:18:48 <Taneb> shachaf, if you pay for me to live in CA
00:19:29 <kmc> tarpittiful
00:19:45 <kmc> we'll name that bridge after him yet
00:19:46 <shachaf> int-e: well, Taneb is actually in .uk
00:19:55 <kmc> fucking oakland wouldn't go along
00:20:29 <kmc> we just need to make sure all the san franciscans who move to oakland due to outrageous rent in SF will remain loyal to the emperor
00:20:35 <Taneb> shachaf, although I have contacts in .nl and .au
00:20:42 <Taneb> And .it, come to think of it
00:20:51 <kmc> also there's a new bar in the Tenderloin called Emperor Norton's Boozeland
00:20:55 <kmc> i've yet to go
00:21:00 <kmc> I assume I will either love it or hate it intensely
00:22:23 <Bike> did norton even drink
00:23:04 <kmc> don't know
00:23:12 <Taneb> I really need to get a game of Diana: Warrior Princess going
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00:25:10 <kmc> shachaf: there is royalty in .ca though
00:27:33 <shachaf> emperor Taneb for president
00:28:33 <oerjan> "Whoever after due and proper warning shall be heard to utter the abominable word "Frisco," which has no linguistic or other warrant, shall be deemed guilty of a High Misdemeanor, and shall pay into the Imperial Treasury as penalty the sum of twenty-five dollars."
00:28:57 <kmc> if outsourced royalty counts
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00:30:21 <shachaf> oerjan: how much is that in 2013 dollars
00:30:49 <oerjan> hm can frink convert that
00:31:52 <Sgeo> https://github.com/ngerakines/commitment/blob/master/commit_messages.txt
00:32:58 <Sgeo> ...I may be guilty of a few of those
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00:33:42 <oerjan> `frink 25 dollars_1872 -> dollar
00:33:53 <HackEgo> Error when reading Consumer Price Index file from FTP site. \ Will use static file for historical U.S. currency conversions. \ 463.23673749815968985
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00:35:16 <oerjan> i suppose that shouldn't be _too_ out of date.
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00:48:32 <Taneb> What does the fact that things can be accidentally turing complete show
00:48:58 <Taneb> This essay is in in 9 hours and I'm 50 words short
00:49:01 <shachaf> that the world is a bad place
00:49:52 <Taneb> Help I've reached the point where I'm being really introspective about my chest hair
00:49:59 <oerjan> that we're doomed once our toasters accidentally turn sentient.
00:50:28 <oerjan> are your chest hairs turing complete
00:50:39 <Taneb> I don't think so but on the other hand bathroom tiles are
00:50:48 <shachaf> kmc: did you know there was an iso standard for entering unicode codepoints
00:51:07 <shachaf> actually it's just what urxvt does
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01:09:15 <kmc> yeah i think i've mentioned it here
01:31:58 -!- variable has changed nick to function.
01:33:02 <lexande> fungot: but are you a constant function or a variable function?
01:33:02 <fungot> lexande: i'm ol' x86 user ;p http://www.klubitus.org/ fnord/ fnord
01:33:58 <oerjan> function: fun fact, all except one of your nicks collides with someone else in the first 3 letters
01:34:42 * oerjan vaguely wonders if function is changing nick automatically and has been idling this whole time
01:34:46 <fungot> lexande: how old are you?" " this section describe infrared connection troubleshooting procedure." hahah, same with perl/ java/ io/ file.html
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01:35:45 <oerjan> you have fungot in its own window?
01:35:45 <fungot> oerjan: different people have different preferences. some people don't
01:35:56 <oerjan> fungot: i guess you're right.
01:35:56 <fungot> oerjan: hmm how can drscheme fnord factorial that fast and with no examples.
01:36:09 <oerjan> fungot: it's a mystery
01:36:09 <fungot> oerjan: hehe... my wife? is she at home enjoying capitalism?. yarly nowai fnord if then else
01:36:35 <oerjan> fungot: that sounds expensive, also i didn't know you were married.
01:36:35 <fungot> oerjan: external 1g scsi hd. but that may be very good for writing little scripts." how many people use religion as an answer
01:37:00 <function> oerjan: no, I don't change nick automaticall
01:37:08 <lexande> oerjan: i started saying something about fungot, and then i won
01:37:08 <fungot> lexande: but why would you need to check
01:37:11 <function> oerjan: which nick doesn't collide ?
01:37:19 <function> lexande: I'm a mutable constant function
01:37:46 <lexande> constants are just a kind of function
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02:58:13 <Bike> http://discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/futures/ of course
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04:11:51 <kmc> "Horny Ghost Of Osama Bin Laden : Rise Of The Ghost and over one million other books are available for Amazon Kindle. [Learn more]"
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04:29:57 <nooodl> note to self: when someone asks me what an applicative functor is i have to tell them "they're like halfway between boxes and burritos"
04:31:49 <kmc> https://twitter.com/bos31337/status/402212508187897856
04:34:29 <shachaf> fungot has a twitter account?
04:34:29 <fungot> shachaf: why no pointers? me scared by pointer fnord n' stuff?
04:35:04 <kmc> fungot: are you a three-star programmer
04:35:04 <fungot> kmc: i wish i were a fan of the fnord and passing it to number-string with a radix of 8 to just generate a simple html webpage.
04:35:13 <Bike> how often are you asked what an applicative functor is
04:35:16 <kmc> fungot: what do you think of http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/
04:35:16 <fungot> kmc: you are, 6 instructions. i figured that
04:35:30 <kmc> fungot: ya got me
04:35:30 <fungot> kmc: do you think the extension was? just some random ideas and the thought alone makes me want to kill someone. i'll make up something
04:38:35 <shachaf> fungot: how many instructions am i
04:38:35 <fungot> shachaf: although really all programming concepts out there in the begin clause of define-structure then? ;p it might make sense
04:38:45 <fungot> shachaf: there was a major transition to 32-bit architectures in all sorts of things
04:39:10 <shachaf> fungot: 32-bit addresses aren't enough for kmc
04:40:50 <shachaf> fungot: you're the seriously best bot
04:40:51 <fungot> shachaf: zomg repeat!! but that low-level stuff frightens and confuses me, so to have binary data combined with gc'ed data i'd have to special-case literals; you treat them as a tad) n
04:40:56 <shachaf> fungot: you're the seriously best bot
04:41:10 <shachaf> last time i'm taking directions from a bot
04:41:51 <kmc> ah, to be young again, and also a robot
04:43:41 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/articles/ah-to-be-young-rich-white-male-collegeeducated-str,34320/
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04:47:19 <kmc> coppro|spoiled
04:49:50 <nooodl> markov chains from sicp and the king james bible
04:51:28 <nooodl> aka "the description in the header"
04:52:40 <kmc> what it says on the tin
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07:20:40 <fizzie> shachaf: It hasn't tweeted for a while, though.
07:20:52 <fizzie> (The script might be broken.)
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07:49:53 <fizzie> "Date of publication nulldate; date of current version nulldate."
07:51:49 <myname> seems like you have the first and only version
07:59:20 <fizzie> Also it seems that in the acknowledgements footnote I've claimed that the "recognition experimenters" (rather than experiments) have been performed using computational resources from the Triton cluster.
07:59:29 <fizzie> I guess that means that I'm a program after all.
08:00:50 <kmc> not a train?
08:03:02 <Bike> http://acko.net/blog/on-asmjs/
08:04:10 <kmc> nope nope nope
08:04:25 <kmc> fuck that guy for his rant about how feminism is bullshit and what about the men: http://acko.net/blog/storms-and-teacups/
08:04:36 <kmc> also for his absurd LOOK AT ME web design which distracts from the content and melts my computer
08:04:37 <fizzie> Maybe some kind of a computer-simulated train.
08:04:39 <kmc> in conclusion, nope
08:04:49 <Bike> oh. didn't know.
08:04:53 <kmc> fizzie: am I a computer dreaming i'm a train? or a train dreaming i'm a computer?
08:05:52 <kmc> the exercises in model checking class did often involve trains and elevators
08:06:11 <kmc> and the prof had a story about being hired by the italian government to prove that the trains wouldn't run into each other
08:06:15 <Bike> hehe the first page of that hits like half my antifeminism bingo card.
08:06:19 <kmc> i know right
08:06:35 <kmc> i haven't been able to make it all the way through (which I guess means I have no right to criticize, according to the first section)
08:06:44 <kmc> instead I open it, scroll to a random point, get intensely angry, close it
08:07:08 <kmc> there's usually a way for humans to fuck up so that the trains run into each other, anyway, though
08:07:11 <kmc> , isn't it
08:07:39 <Bike> i think i've seen like one video of a head on train collision, but i might have imagiend int
08:07:48 <kmc> head-on-train collision
08:07:52 <kmc> those happen a lot on caltrain :/
08:08:06 <Bike> i've mostly seen train-hits-incidental-vehicle
08:08:09 <kmc> "ICE 3 high speed trains use electrochromatic glass panels between the passenger compartment and the driver's cabin. The standard mode is clear, and can be switched by the driver to frosted/translucent, mainly to conceal "unwanted sights" from passengers' view, for example in the case of (human) obstacles."
08:09:06 <kmc> caltrain runs right through the center of a densely populated corridor and mostly at grade
08:09:13 <kmc> so there are a lot of vehicle collisions but also a lot of suicides
08:11:24 <fizzie> We had an elevator exercise in the model checking class.
08:11:29 <fizzie> No trains that I can recall.
08:13:28 <kmc> we were given a puzzle about how two trams could pass each other through a bridge that looks like -=-=- , i.e., three single track sections with two passing sections between them
08:13:35 <kmc> based on some bridge in amsterdam supposedly
08:14:18 <kmc> a protocol for the trams to follow which never results in them getting stuck or backing up
08:14:30 <kmc> i find it interesting that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauntlet_track is used for some bridges rather than actual single tracking
08:15:02 <fizzie> Our class was based on http://spinroot.com/spin/ if I recall correctly.
08:15:16 <kmc> the instructor was the main developer
08:15:48 <fizzie> PROMELA was kind of funny to write.
08:16:36 <kmc> merging two tracks into two overlapping tracks is simpler & more reliable (no moving parts) than merging them onto one track with switches
08:17:05 <kmc> fizzie: I don't remember much about it
08:17:32 <kmc> I know it had finite state, and pattern-matching on message reception, and slightly odd syntax but nothing too awful iirc
08:17:49 <fizzie> Oh, I mostly remember the syntactical bits.
08:18:15 <fizzie> Parts of it looked very C-inspired, but then there were the oddities that really stood out with that background.
08:18:52 <fizzie> (Also "if ... fi" and "do ... od" control structures.)
08:19:00 <kmc> oh i forgot about that
08:19:52 <fizzie> I don't have anything against if..fi or do..od, it's just that e.g. procedures were "normal" brace-delimited blocks.
08:20:12 <fizzie> ("Some of my best friends are if..fi's and do..od's.")
08:34:51 <Deewiant> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76028872/kuusipalaa.png
08:35:57 <shachaf> what about "the spruce is on fire"
08:37:38 <kmc> we don't need no water let the motherfucker burn
08:44:07 <quintopia> that's a lot of definitions for one phrase
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08:58:35 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=796bHaAtlkE#t=1m hth
09:05:47 <ion> I happened to write an explanation of that to someone who asked, might as well paste it here: The words for spruce and six happen to be the same. I have no idea why. “To return” is “palata” and “to burn” is “palaa”; “I return” is “palaan” and “I burn” is “palan”. The rules of inflection just happen to make both “(it) returns” and “(it) burns” “palaa”. The word for
09:05:49 <ion> “piece” is “pala”. The inflection for “(eleventy) pieces” just happens to be “palaa”. That’s not unlike “I have a rose” and “I rose up” in English. The word for “moon” is “kuu”. The inflection for “your moon” happens to be “kuusi”.
09:08:32 <ion> shachaf: So that’s what the fox says.
09:23:44 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
09:29:12 <fizzie> ion: Wiktionary seems to indicate "kuusi" migth be both six and spruce just by accident; the number has the etymology "from Proto-Finnic *kuuci, from Proto-Finno-Ugric *kutte", while the tree is "from Proto-Uralic *kuse, *kose or *kowse".
09:29:35 <ion> Yeah, i assumed it’s just by accident, but i didn’t know the etymology of either.
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11:22:08 <fizzie> Do you folks happen to know if there are good open-sores tools to annotate PDF files?
11:22:51 <kmc> i was going to say "printer and a pen" but even printing from Linux is nigh-impossible so
11:24:14 <ion> fizzie: Xournal
11:28:02 <fizzie> kmc: I've in fact already printed the PDF, from Linux.
11:28:13 <fizzie> (But I'm supposed to return an annotated PDF.)
11:29:52 <fizzie> ion: I guess Xournal does something custom? The file I return needs to be something Adobe-compatible, I presume.
11:30:11 <ion> It lets you draw on the PDF and save it again.
11:30:16 <ion> Very useful with a wacom pad.
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11:32:16 <fizzie> From what I can tell from the manual, that would produce a PDF with scribblings on it, not a PDF with those specific annotation boxes.
11:38:12 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just rdesktop to the terminal server, it's supposed to have Adobe Acrobat X Pro on it.
11:38:56 <kmc> Give Up And Use Windows
11:40:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: Heh, there's a /C:\nppdf32Log\debuglog.txt file (as in, in the root directory) owned by root:root on kosh.org.aalto.fi. :p
11:41:18 <Deewiant> Nice, who's been running firefox as root
11:41:52 <fizzie> Maybe it's been MATLAB instead.
11:44:57 <fizzie> Wow, this PDF renders quite horribly in rdesktop-Acrobat.
11:47:17 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131128-baseline.png that's some quality horizontal alignment there
11:49:06 <kmc> vertikerning
11:51:22 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bew73APL7X4 wow hypnotizing
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12:21:00 <Deewiant> fizzie: I thought that was from adobe's pdf reader plugin for firefox
12:21:49 <fizzie> Deewiant: I get it from MATLAB's help browser, but of course the help is a mess of HTML, so it might well use the same underlying components.
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14:21:54 <oerjan> <shachaf> fungot has a twitter account? <-- pretty sure e used to have, but i think it stopped working.
14:21:54 <fungot> oerjan: http://web.archive.org/ web/ fnord/ fnord? or where the number of arguments
14:22:16 <boily> quintopia: the ball was sweet and mushy, kinda like a rice crispies square...
14:22:21 <oerjan> fungot: it's nice of you to point to the archive version, but you really shouldn't apply the fnord substitution to it
14:22:21 <fungot> oerjan: i haven't seen any ' fnord just yet.
14:22:43 <oerjan> fungot: you cannot see your own fnords? i guess that makes some sense.
14:22:43 <fungot> oerjan: fnord? catch the wind and cut off its fnord?
14:22:58 <oerjan> fungot: i have this feeling you are just messing with me.
14:22:58 <fungot> oerjan: the only motivation for the syntax
14:23:41 <boily> fungot: you are creepy.
14:23:41 <fungot> boily: they shit out rice crispies" when you ask the question
14:23:43 <oerjan> boily: i have a certain urge to `addquote that.
14:23:55 <oerjan> (um, what you said just before.)
14:24:11 <fizzie> Well, technically, the account still works, the tweeting script just might not.
14:24:58 <fizzie> Maybe I should revive it.
14:25:11 <fizzie> fungot: How do you feel about getting back to the social twitosphere?
14:25:11 <fungot> fizzie: fnord) if ( *cptr fnord *cptr fnord) check the next cell ( a total of n places in under n moves, moving only one place
14:25:12 <oerjan> `pastlog twitter\.com.*fungot
14:25:13 <fungot> oerjan: ais523 can read it back in whenever it changes cons that list onto another list
14:25:57 <oerjan> `pastlog twitter\.com.*fungot
14:25:57 <fungot> oerjan: and malice fnord. but i was talking about making a whole scheme
14:26:04 <boily> @tell ais523 could you read the twitting fungot back when the cons are changed? twh.
14:26:04 <fungot> boily: that's the purpose. why write source code at all
14:26:11 <HackEgo> 2013-04-09.txt:01:51:08: <elliott> http://twitter.com/fungot
14:26:25 <boily> fungot: uhm... like, you know, like, it's my job, genre tsé.
14:26:25 <fungot> boily: maybe it's more: the public is saved from what it doesn't
14:26:59 <boily> fungot: indeed. I wouldn't want the public to start coding too much. too dangerous, imho.
14:26:59 <fungot> boily: i'll bet the fact that nothing works properly on this computer so i can't count.
14:27:09 <oerjan> fizzie: what is the one twitter account fungot follows
14:27:09 <fungot> oerjan: what were you talking about? what is the reindeer effect? odd :)
14:28:32 * oerjan just noticed that fungot mentioned rice crispies after boily did
14:28:32 <fungot> oerjan: process 4 killed. there was this comment: fnord/ guile-ref/ fnord? here's not even the current editors. they know me. you've never seen the lectures myself, but i
14:29:00 <boily> the reindeer effect is when you drop a twitter account in order to latch onto rice crispies.
14:29:35 <fizzie> oerjan: It's probably my twitter account.
14:31:00 <fizzie> Yes, that is indeed the case.
14:32:54 <fungot> boily: do you know the problem of namespace pollution problems.) ack!
14:33:36 <boily> fungot: I do know. as a certain bespectacled girl who wields blood would say, 不愉快です。
14:33:36 <fungot> boily: gnu tend not to go in early for some project instead of eager... then you could shine lasers on them to make smart decisions or act out some kind of syntax is that just x. z)
14:34:48 <oerjan> wielding blood sounds creepy
14:34:50 <boily> fungot: am I able to make you trip onto some predetermined keywords? what are the gnu commandline options for that? poulet, orange, navet, melon, luffa, kiwi?
14:34:50 <fungot> boily: mmm.... montreal smoked meat. :) why do you say it'd work particularly well on many modern windows-based platforms"
14:34:58 <boily> oerjan: it's a plot point.
14:35:10 <boily> fungot: yé! montréal smoked meat!
14:35:10 <fungot> boily: ( " a gentle introduction to ml" is much harder than with anything else
14:35:28 <boily> fungot: indeed. ML is hardcore. those Haskell wussies don't know nothing.
14:37:22 <oerjan> it has a formal definition, which sadly only half exists because it's paywalled, iiuc.
14:38:58 <oerjan> i live by the principle that information that isn't freely available doesn't really exist.
14:39:55 <boily> your explanation dh, even if ML by itself dnh.
14:40:24 <oerjan> i think they recently released an older version of the definition.
14:41:34 <boily> imo, paywalls are there to protect a lack of information. case in point, about the only thriving mainstream news source in Québec switched to a tablet version.
14:42:03 <boily> (well. printed and or textual. we're still stuck with TVA and suchlike when turning on a television.)
14:43:05 <oerjan> i wonder if the released version is from before they switched to the value restriction.
14:44:18 <oerjan> (ML used to have a complicated kind of purity annotation on type variables.)
14:45:19 <oerjan> but then someone realized (or borrowed from ocaml) that you can just restrict generalization of types to actual functions given syntactically.
14:51:07 <fizzie> "<fungot> gnu tend not to go in early for some project instead of eager... then you could shine lasers on them to make smart decisions" fungot explains how to make the GNU project work.
14:51:08 <fungot> fizzie: 30 meg or so. i take it back a few times when i get h. in case you hadn't noticed, i was
14:53:26 <boily> the whole GNU project fits in 30 MB, and to work need to be shined upon by lasers.
14:59:31 <boily> (I strongly suspect every GNU application is only emacs in disguise.)
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15:46:59 <oerjan> <Bike> http://acko.net/blog/on-asmjs/ <-- so, this guy has to be blind, right?
15:54:08 <mroman_> I need someone with a brain
15:55:13 <mroman_> A term in conjunctive normal form is only satisfable if every subterm is?
15:55:57 <oerjan> ok conjuctive is where the and's are outermost, right?
15:56:01 <mroman_> Because all subterms are AND-ed
15:56:23 <mroman_> All Subterms consist only of OR-ed variables and a Term consists of AND-ed subterms
15:56:28 <oerjan> well then yes, that's a requirement.
15:56:49 <mroman_> Every subterm esentially describes a "non-solution"
15:56:54 <oerjan> (of course if it were also sufficient, things would be very simply)
15:57:06 * boily recalls his «Circuits logiques» classes, with Karnaugh tables and smokeless chips...
15:57:35 <mroman_> (a v !b) ^ (a v b v c) tells us, that (0, 1, x) and (0, 0, 0) can't be solutions
15:59:22 <oerjan> you can just put a big "not" around the whole and apply deMorgan.
16:00:58 <mroman_> Due to that, the complexity of determining if the whole term is satisfiable is linear in the number of "don't care"s
16:01:28 <oerjan> this is NP-complete, you know.
16:01:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:02:06 <oerjan> all known algorithms are exponential.
16:02:41 <mroman_> Consider exact 3-SAT with 6 Variables
16:03:35 <mroman_> I'm aware that it must be exponential ;)
16:04:34 <oerjan> (if you can _prove_ it, you have a million dollars hth)
16:04:50 <mroman_> It's exponential in the number of "don't care"s
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16:12:09 <mroman_> I think there should be an algorithm that is exponential in number of subterms
16:12:30 <mroman_> 8^m where m is the Numbers of Terms for 3-SAT
16:16:06 <mroman_> because a single subterm is satisfiable in (2^n)-1 ways
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16:22:01 <oerjan> well you can have one that is exponential in number of variables, which is no more than 3*subterms
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18:06:25 <boily> back from lunch. the accentèd soup was good, but the place was cold.
18:34:46 <lexande> what does "kuusi palaa" mean?
18:35:16 <fizzie> All those things listed in the image?
18:36:06 <fizzie> Also see ion's comprehensive explanation.
18:36:25 <fizzie> Huh, "This account's public links are generating too much traffic and have been temporarily disabled!"
18:36:50 -!- yiyus has joined.
18:38:21 <lexande> oh, it already got linked here, i see
18:40:35 <fizzie> There's a "joke" related to translating "voi äiti, joulukuusi palaa!" to Swedish in an intententionally wrong way; it goes something like "smör mamma, julsex kommer tillbaka!"
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18:42:59 <boily> julsex? is that some kind of twisted Santa Fetish?
18:44:05 <fizzie> Them Swedes collapse en:six and en:sex, probably for some good reason.
18:44:25 <Slereah> http://www.graficaobscura.com/future/futnotes.html
18:44:27 <fizzie> (Also itself a subject of much giggling in primary school language lessons.)
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18:47:34 <boily> Slereah: “try indenting from right to left” ???
18:47:57 <fizzie> A sextet too, I guess.
18:48:43 <olsner> I doubt there is any good reason for using sex for six
18:52:20 <boily> anarchists are a strangely structured bunch...
18:53:16 <Slereah> Except : "Structured programming = slow. "
18:54:42 <Slereah> Though I'd love to see a modern OS programmed entirely efficiently
18:54:53 <Slereah> Although I'm pretty sure it would cost a million dollars
18:54:56 <int-e> How does that work? "I just want to code, I don't want to abide by any structure. It slows me down."
18:55:44 <Slereah> I guess they want to code efficiently instead of maintainably
18:55:57 <Slereah> Which is a nice idea in theory
18:56:10 <Slereah> But I wouldn't want to be the guy who has to pick up the project later on
18:56:46 <boily> if I apply their principles, all I'll achieve is unusable-code-that-only-works-on-my-machine-today.
18:56:47 <Bike> so, not a nice idea in theory.
18:57:05 <Slereah> boily : But boy will it run smoothly!
18:57:22 <Bike> until you try to install something and it messes everything up.
18:57:30 <Bike> usability means more than 'speed'.
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18:58:38 <Bike> but there's no advantage.
18:59:22 <Slereah> If you run it for one thing on a dedicated machine, should be fine
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18:59:43 <Bike> But if you're running it for "one thing" you might as well just put that one thing on the hardware.
18:59:46 <boily> Slereah: that I can't deny. but it's like doing lines of code as if doing lines of coke. instant gratification, but empty.
19:00:06 <Slereah> Hardware is expensive though!
19:00:13 <boily> beuh. who changed `ello?
19:00:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ey: not found
19:00:21 <Slereah> boily : You say that like it's a bad thing
19:00:22 <Bike> well i guess we can't buy a computer then
19:00:32 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/ello: No such file or directory
19:00:39 <Slereah> A computer is probably cheaper than building a dedicated CPU
19:00:44 <tswett> `paste /hackenv/bin/ello
19:00:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//hackenv/bin/ello
19:00:56 <Bike> by 'on hardware' i meant just putting it on a regular cpu, but without an os
19:01:17 <Slereah> Isn't that still software?
19:01:24 <Slereah> Software doesn't mean "on an OS"
19:01:46 <Slereah> I guess you can put it in a static memory, if that counts?
19:01:55 <tswett> Yeah, but doesn't "on software" mean "on an OS"?
19:02:08 <boily> software means all that can't be physically kicked around.
19:03:11 <tswett> So, right. ABOUT LINEAR TYPING. You can make a linear type system out of Haskell's type system just by adding one operator, ~, the dual operator. a with b becomes ~(Either ~a ~b), a par b becomes ~(~a, ~b), bottom becomes ~(), and so on.
19:03:56 <tswett> And this raises the question, what does ~ mean? It acts suspiciously like (-> e), where "e" is some universally quantified type variable.
19:04:43 <tswett> But where do you put the quantifiers?
19:05:25 <tswett> Oh, there's my problem. I was putting the quantifiers in Zimbabwe.
19:05:45 <Bike> zimbabwe is to the left of some places, to be fair.
19:05:58 <boily> @tell oerjan can I learn Zimbabwe's quantification?
19:06:13 <tswett> Let me see whether or not Zimbabwe is to my left right now.
19:06:44 <boily> tswett: what are your current approximate coördinates?
19:07:08 <tswett> 42.9612° N, 85.6557° W
19:08:00 <tswett> Accurate to within a few tenths of a degree.
19:10:00 <tswett> Really, all of linear logic's production rules can be translated directly into Haskell, practically unchanged!
19:10:04 <tswett> I just don't know what will come out.
19:10:06 <quintopia> boily: i'm sorry it was mushy. they were very crunchy at the beginning of the month.
19:12:15 <boily> quintopia: don't be sorry, I quite enjoyed it. the sweetness was surprising, though.
19:12:45 <boily> tswett: thanks. for scientific purposes, could you provide me with you body weigh?
19:13:59 <tswett> Probably accurate to within 5 lbs.
19:14:24 <boily> that's much appreciated. and strangely precise. I am disturbed; this doesn't happen often...
19:15:01 <tswett> You don't usually get body weights accurate to within 5 lbs?
19:15:12 <quintopia> also have people here been enjoying the autogenerated hackernews headlines? they use the same technique as fungot afaict
19:15:12 <fungot> quintopia: call it " fn" is ( a f)) ( map fnord lst)
19:15:48 <tswett> So, gimme a few minutes, lemme see how the cut rule translates.
19:15:49 <boily> tswett: I get frivolous answers, viz. megaluns.
19:16:00 <HackEgo> megalun is a chain of a million SCSI devices. FreeFull weighs 482 of them.
19:16:11 <quintopia> boily: do you have my coordinates and body weigh? they are less fluctual now
19:16:27 <tswett> Oh dang, I never figured out whether or not Zimbabwe is to my left.
19:16:51 <boily> quintopia: I don't have your weigh. the coordinates were properly appröximated according to your last known address.
19:17:15 <tswett> Yep, I'm pretty sure I would describe Zimbabwe as being on my left.
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19:18:30 <boily> tswett: michigan? zimbabwe is most definitely to your left.
19:18:49 <tswett> Depends on which way I'm facing.
19:19:45 <boily> zimbabwe's leftness is orthogonal to your orientation.
19:19:49 <olsner> apparently my desk points zimbabwe
19:20:14 <tswett> No, I disagree. Zimbabwe's leftness is highly dependent on my orientation.
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19:21:51 <boily> `run echo "olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation." >wisdom/zimbabwe
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19:22:05 <quintopia> boily: it would only be orthogonal if michigan was antipodal to zimbabwe
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19:25:56 <boily> quintopia: sadly, I concur that is not the case.
19:26:00 <fizzie> I think sgello is a kind of a (virtual?) string instrument?
19:27:59 * boily strokes Sgeo with a sbow
19:29:31 <quintopia> i'm sure that's exactly what sgeo was hoping for waking up today
19:29:40 <quintopia> "i need to get myself stroked today"
19:30:56 <Sgeo> I'm hoping for a computer that doesn't keep struggling with its graphics driver
19:31:18 <Sgeo> Also hoping not to be stroked by something that I don't even know what it is
19:31:57 <Sgeo> Looked it up. Apparently, boily is trying to run me over with an SUV?
19:33:03 <Sgeo> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=SBOW
19:33:11 <fizzie> boily: Don't try to play innocent, we know what you did.
19:33:57 <boily> bin torieux. there's always that chance that unknown words I type already mean something. I guess that just happened, eh?
19:34:17 <boily> fizzie: I claim not-guilty.
19:35:00 <boily> besides, how would one realistically stroke somebody else with an SUV?
19:41:11 <fizzie> By driving over them, presumably.
19:42:15 <boily> I deny everything. also, Sgeo is a wall.
19:42:54 <fizzie> Some people are walls, other people are wextras, it's just a fact of life.
19:46:04 <shachaf> boily: that's why you should type randomly-chosen 256-bit words
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19:50:05 <boily> shachaf: I 4ediGUdynGUJfQr0rGb582AvRrw6IBZX with you.
19:52:58 <tswett> So the cut rule ends up typed like this:
19:53:01 <tswett> (d -> (b -> t4, g -> t3) -> t) -> ((d', b) -> (g' -> t2) -> t4) -> (d, d') -> (g -> t3, g' -> t2) -> t
19:53:26 <tswett> Where all those ts are the universally quantified variables.
20:02:55 <tswett> Each one seems to correspond to a normal variable. t3 obviously corresponds to g, and t2 to g'. Then t4 seems to correspond to b, and t must correspond to d. And that leaves nothing to correspond to d'.
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20:12:01 <boily> one cut to rule them all, and in the scissors snip them...
20:19:25 <int-e> maybe cut elimination should be called stitching.
20:20:30 <boily> chellopumpkin. int-hello.
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20:25:33 <HackEgo> jochem88: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:26:06 -!- tswett has joined.
20:26:17 <tswett> Whoever asked, the cut rule is from here: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-linear/
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20:34:31 <Slereah> http://www.techwyse.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/robots-txt1.gif
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20:43:21 <FireFly> relcome jut might be a bit too colourful
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20:43:42 <myname> it is not colourful enough
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20:45:29 <int-e> /set hide_colors on
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21:12:01 <fizzie> Grumble murgle burgle, that computer with the noisy broken-sounding fan, into which I put a new nice and silent fan, has made the new fan also noisy and broken-sounding, in just a month or three. Must be some kind of a curse.
21:13:25 <HackEgo> FireFly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:13:37 <boily> fizzie: did you cast the chicken bones right?
21:13:55 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 8 Oct 28 14:16 bin/relcome -> rwelcome \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 12 Sep 25 13:06 bin/resume \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 35 Oct 19 20:40 bin/rwelcome
21:13:55 <FireFly> I think someone decided the other one broke too much stuff
21:14:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: stop: not found
21:14:43 <shachaf> `run echo 'echo resume' > bin/rèsumè; chmod +x bin/rèsumè
21:21:47 <fizzie> What! The non-word-based rainbow welcome is no more?
21:22:15 <fizzie> Bah. I guess there's no accounting for taste.
21:22:16 <boily> fizzie: indeed. it was squished away by heretics.
21:23:28 <boily> > fizzie == fizzie
21:23:29 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `fizzie'Not in scope: `fizzie'
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22:32:01 <lambdabot> boily said 3h 26m 3s ago: can I learn Zimbabwe's quantification?
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22:35:43 <oerjan> @tell boily the zimbabwean uncertainty principle means you cannot quantify their bmp precisely without causing runaway inflation.
22:40:51 <oerjan> <fizzie> There's a "joke" related to translating "voi äiti, joulukuusi palaa!" to Swedish [...] <-- google translate doesn't seem to know that meaning of "voi"
22:41:39 <oerjan> oh it knows it the other way around.
22:43:30 <oerjan> oh hm it's listed in the footnotes if you try "voi" alone.
22:48:47 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> beuh. who changed `ello? <-- i think you got hit by the tab expansion space issue.
22:50:02 <HackEgo> [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+006A LATIN SMALL LETTER J] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N]
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22:53:23 <shachaf> `unencode [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O]
22:53:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unencode: not found
22:53:28 <shachaf> `uniencode [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O]
22:53:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: uniencode: not found
22:55:11 <oerjan> `unicode CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O
23:02:46 <shachaf> you're an unkown character
23:08:31 <oerjan> <shachaf> Hmm, those are the same? <-- some people overwrote the old relcome with rwelcome.
23:09:11 <oerjan> oh it's actually a link.
23:11:37 <oerjan> `run echo "echo résumé" >bin/resume
23:12:35 <oerjan> shachaf: it was in latin-1
23:12:53 <fizzie> You know the old adage: when you résumé, you make a rés out of both you and mé.
23:13:17 * oerjan checks fizzie's line encoding. you pass.
23:13:47 <fizzie> I not only pass, I pass-te. (From your line.)
23:13:59 <HackEgo> [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+00E8 LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH GRAVE] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M] [U+00E8 LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH GRAVE]
23:14:13 <coppro> shachaf: you appear to possess a grave disorder
23:15:33 <oerjan> fizzie also has it, it seems to be turning acute
23:15:36 <coppro> why does unicode require you to know the code point
23:15:39 <shachaf> ♪ when they resume the résumé ♪
23:15:53 <coppro> oerjan: but is it turning complete?
23:15:59 <coppro> that's all we care about in this channel
23:16:26 <oerjan> hm we have defined turning tarpits, but have we defined turning completeness
23:16:47 <shachaf> p. sure 2π is turning complete
23:18:12 * shachaf is desperately trying to stop pronouncing the j in oerjan like the j in jack.
23:18:35 <fizzie> "oerjack" doesn't sound too shabby. Maybe a bit piratey.
23:19:28 <oerjan> lambdabot: you disappoint.
23:19:59 <oerjan> is there any actual difference between the commands?
23:20:10 <shachaf> They have two different lists of responses.
23:20:26 <shachaf> (Or did in the past. Maybe in the new age of mokusism that's different.)
23:21:19 <shachaf> people who play music loudly are the worst people
23:22:55 <oerjan> shachaf: no, i would say people who do carpentry are just as bad.
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23:23:30 <lambdabot> *** "vambrace" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:23:30 <lambdabot> n 1: cannon of plate armor protecting the forearm [syn:
23:24:05 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splice_the_mainbrace
23:25:49 <fizzie> Oh, it has nothing to do with mainframes. *disappoint*
23:26:11 <oerjan> well it was more interesting than i expected.
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23:31:09 <Taneb> I've been pressganged into presenting a talk on esolangs
23:31:45 <nooodl> how big of an audience are we talking
23:32:43 <oerjan> Taneb: well it probably beats joining the navy.
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23:37:30 <oerjan> (disclaimer: both of my previous messages make slightly more sense if you read the logs.)
23:40:19 <oerjan> lambdabot: your dictionary is useless
23:41:34 <fizzie> Ex-ply, the euphemism for used toilet paper.
23:42:43 <quintopia> is there an app for identifying a tune i whistle?
23:43:50 <oerjan> i vaguely recall hearing one mentioned, although in the context of it not really working.
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23:44:36 * oerjan assumes quintopia can google himself.
23:45:01 <fizzie> SoundHound claims to do it, IIRC.
23:46:00 <quintopia> oerjan: i was asking because my googling had failed to turn it up
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23:46:21 <fizzie> "Can SoundHound work if I whistle instead of singing or humming?
23:46:23 <fizzie> SoundHound has been designed to work even when you whistle! But please note that the microphones on most mobile devices, including iPhones and Android phones, are very sensitive to whistling. To make sure your whistled search gets the best results, try not to whistle too loud or too close to the microphone: hold the phone at arm's length while whistling, and whistle at only a moderate volume ...
23:46:30 <fizzie> ... so that the SoundHound volume bar does not fill up all the way."
23:46:36 <oerjan> quintopia: yes, i'm just logically deducing that i don't need to do it.
23:46:45 <fizzie> From what I recall, it does do humming better.
23:47:26 <Taneb> How do I even do a talk on esolangs
23:48:19 <fizzie> Musipedia also does whistling, I believe.
23:48:30 <oerjan> hm i am sure some finn here did some. not sure if it was fizzie or oklopol.
23:48:53 <oerjan> or maybe even another finn.
23:48:59 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
23:49:07 <fizzie> "You may sing or whistle (the latter might work better)"
23:49:11 <oerjan> i guess that covers all, then.
23:49:53 <oerjan> the big question is, does it work for people who cannot carry a tune.
23:49:59 <fizzie> atehwa did some kind of series at the University of Helsinki.
23:51:14 <fizzie> oerjan: Musipedia also has a keyboard if you can laboriously pick notes.
23:52:30 <oerjan> i mean tone deaf, i guess.
23:52:51 <oerjan> like, unable to tell whether they have selected the right notes.
23:53:07 <fizzie> Shazam (the other big name for "mainstream" music search) explicitly does not do singing, I think.
23:53:56 <fizzie> oerjan: It has a search-by-tapping-a-rhythm option for them.
23:55:02 <fizzie> (Also a mode where you just say if consecutive notes are higher or lower than their predecessors.)
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